Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 23927

 1                           Monday, 12 September 2011

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.06 a.m.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.

 6             This is case IT-08-91-T, the Prosecutor versus Mico Stanisic and

 7     Stojan Zupljanin.

 8             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

 9             Good morning to everyone.  May we take the appearances today,

10     please.

11             MS. KORNER:  Sorry.  Good morning, Your Honours.  Joanna Korner

12     and Crispian Smith for the Prosecution.

13             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours.  For

14     the Stanisic Defence, Slobodan Cvijetic and Ms. Deirdre Montgomery.

15             MR. KRGOVIC:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Dragan Krgovic and

16     Miroslav Cuskic, appearing for Zupljanin Defence.

17             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.

18                           [The witness takes the stand]

19             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, Ms. Korner.

20             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, before the General starts, I was given

21     certain information by Mr. Krgovic about something that happened over the

22     weekend.  And Your Honours have been told, have you?

23             JUDGE HALL:  We've been enlightened, yes.

24             MS. KORNER:  It's been raised, has it?  Okay, thank you very

25     much.

Page 23928

 1                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 2             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, Mr. Krgovic.

 3             MR. KRGOVIC:  Can we go to the private session for this purpose,

 4     Your Honour.

 5             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, we go into private session.

 6                           [Private session]

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 23929

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4                           [Open session]

 5             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, I'm sorry to interrupt and I would

 6     thought it would have been better to discuss it in the absence of the

 7     General.  I'm a little concerned - because I have a lot of questions for

 8     the General and in some detail - whether he feels fit enough.  We

 9     won't -- we weren't told anything about this by VWS, nor do we know what

10     the medical prognosis was.  And obviously I don't want it to be thought

11     at any stage that I'm taking an unfair advantage of the General ...

12                           [Trial Chamber and Legal Officer confer]

13             JUDGE HALL:  Please continue, Ms. Korner.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, for the record, we're in open

15     session.

16             JUDGE HALL:  Oh.  Can we go back into private session.

17                           [Private session]

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 23930

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12                           [Open session]

13             THE REGISTRAR:  We're back in open session, Your Honours.

14             JUDGE HALL:  Yes.  We rise, to resume at 9.30.

15                           [The witness stands down]

16                            --- Break taken at 9.13 a.m.

17                           --- On resuming at 9.34 a.m.

18             JUDGE HALL:  The witness may be escorted back in.  And we could

19     go into private session.

20                           [Private session]

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 23931

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14                           [Open session]

15             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

16                           WITNESS:  VIDOSAV KOVACEVIC [Resumed]

17                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

18                           Cross-examination by Ms. Korner: [Continued]

19        Q.   General, last thing on Friday, you took with you the reports done

20     by Mr. Brown, Dr. Nielsen, and Richard Butler, the last you'd read for

21     your previous report.  All I want to ask you about that is this:  Do you

22     agree that, having re-read Mr. Butler's report, it deals with the VRS in

23     terms of what happened at Srebrenica?

24        A.   Ms. Korner, as far as I remember, Mr. Butler's report that I

25     mentioned, first and foremost, deals with the command responsibility of

Page 23932

 1     the corps command.

 2        Q.   Yes.  At the time, 1995, of Srebrenica.

 3        A.   I think that Mr. Butler dealt with 1992, with the command, and

 4     the prerogatives of the command of the corps, as far as I remember.

 5        Q.   I accept that he dealt with the overall, if you like, philosophy

 6     of command and control, within the VRS, and certainly at the period.

 7     But, largely, dealing with it in the light of the events at Srebrenica.

 8     Do you agree with that?

 9        A.   Madam, I dealt with 1992 in my report, not with 1995.

10        Q.   Well, let's see if you will accept this.

11             It's right - isn't it? - that he doesn't look at anything to do

12     with the relationship between the VRS and the RS MUP.

13        A.   If I remember correctly, Mr. Butler did not analyse these

14     relationships.

15        Q.   The second matter I want to just ask you about in respect of your

16     evidence last Friday is this:  Is it right that you left Croatia and

17     moved to Bihac in November of 1991?

18        A.   That is correct, Ms. Korner.

19        Q.   All right.

20        A.   Or, to be more precise, in late November.  I think it was the

21     28th or the 29th of November.  But it's been a long time.

22        Q.   Right.  And have you personally ever commanded a -- a group of

23     soldiers that included resubordinated police?

24        A.   I understand your question, Ms. Korner.  But I must say that the

25     topic I dealt with, and that is the use of the police in combat

Page 23933

 1     activities and its resubordination, as well as the command relationship

 2     that comes into being then, does not require me to have done anything

 3     like it personally.  That matter is regulated by military rules and

 4     regulations which I had the opportunity to get acquainted with during my

 5     military career.  That matter seemed to be the principal problem, to me.

 6     And I wanted to assist you and the Trial Chamber by explaining this

 7     matter through the rules and regulations.

 8        Q.   Yes.  I take it from that, that your answer to the actual

 9     question I asked, which is:  Had you ever personally commanded a group of

10     soldiers in combat, which included resubordinated police, is no?

11        A.   That is correct.  If you insist on getting an answer.

12        Q.   I'm afraid it is important because at a later stage your evidence

13     is going to be read.

14             And, therefore, as you say, your evidence about this is based on

15     your study of military laws, regulations, and some documents?

16        A.   That is correct, Ms. Korner.

17        Q.   All right.  Now, can we please look, first of all, at some of the

18     differences between the report you wrote for this case and the report you

19     did for the Popovic case, on the same topics.

20             This is no criticism, General.  It's right, isn't it, you used

21     the Popovic report, the report you wrote for General Gvero, as a starting

22     point, if nothing else, for this present report?

23        A.   It is correct that I used parts of my earlier report.  But since

24     we're talking about two reports, I must point out the fact that they deal

25     with two completely different topics.

Page 23934

 1        Q.   Well, they don't, in fact, entirely, do they, because the bulk of

 2     your report in both cases was concerned with command and control issues

 3     as laid down in the regulations of the Socialist Federal Republic of

 4     Yugoslavia; isn't that right?

 5        A.   In order to explain the subject matter I researched, I had to

 6     adhere to the methodology that relies on using some general concepts and

 7     the theory, and that is why I also went into command relationships and

 8     organisational matters.

 9        Q.   Yes.  All right.  Can we look -- and this is going to be a bit

10     difficulty because it would be preferable if we had had the English up in

11     both versions.  You, I think, have got your -- your own copy.  But it

12     means that neither of the accused would have it in their own language.

13     But it is easier to see if we see if we look in both the English

14     versions.

15             MS. KORNER:  So, Your Honours, I'm in the hands of the Defence of

16     this.  We can provide, if they haven't already provided their respective

17     clients with hard copy, we probably can get hard copy of the B/C/S

18     report.  But, otherwise, it means we're going to have the B/C/S and the

19     English up and then the B/C/S and the English up in the earlier report

20     and it's more difficult to identify.  So I'm in the hands of Mr. Krgovic,

21     in particular, as to whether he is happy with that.

22             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, as far as the Defence

23     is concerned, we have no problem with it.  But it -- maybe it would be

24     good if the clients could have both copies at their disposal.  Perhaps we

25     should try and procure some as soon as possible.

Page 23935

 1                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

 2             MS. KORNER:  Your Honour, one of the suggestions I have is that,

 3     helpfully, of Mr. Smith is that we can have the two English versions up

 4     on e-court and on Sanction, the B/C/S version will come up, we hope.

 5        Q.   So can we start, please, General, could you turn -- oh, sorry.

 6     May as well let the General -- you've got your report with you, I

 7     believe, General?

 8                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 9        A.   [No interpretation]

10             JUDGE HALL:  Sorry, Ms. Korner, we are advised that that

11     suggestion wouldn't work because on Sanction the Court Officer then loses

12     control.

13             MS. KORNER:  Well, let's -- first of all, please, can we start

14     then and we'll see how it goes.  Let's have the B/C/S and the English.

15     The English report is 0031 -- sorry, the present report is 0031D2, and

16     the Popovic report, which is at tab 100 of our bundle, is 20232.

17             So can we start with page five in each report; first of all, the

18     English.  Unfortunately, there are no paragraphs, or the paragraphs don't

19     equate in the Popovic report.

20        Q.   Now, under -- in this -- your present report, paragraph 14 you

21     talk about the armed conflict in Bosnia and Herzegovina.  The parties to

22     the conflict were the Army of the Republic of Bosnia, the Croatian

23     Defence Council, and the Army of the RS.  "Each with their own

24     paramilitary and parapolice forces."  Do you see that in paragraph 14.

25        A.   Yes, Ms. Korner.

Page 23936

 1        Q.   Now, can we have up, please, the same page in the Popovic report,

 2     page 5.

 3             MS. KORNER:  Five, in the Popovic report.  Not six.  Oh, yes, is

 4     that -- no, that's -- 5 is right in English, but I don't think it's the

 5     same page in B/C/S.  Got page 6 up there.

 6             Page 5 in B/C/S as well.  I'll say it again:  Page 5.  No -- oh,

 7     I see.  All right.  I see, okay.  One page back apparently in e-court.

 8             Thank you.

 9        Q.   Do you see there, it's paragraph 2, which is almost identical,

10     just slight change of wording, and it may be translation, but you say

11     there:

12             [As read] "The Army of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina,

13     Croatian Defence Council on one side, the Army of Republika Srpska on the

14     other were at war.  Paramilitary forces took part on both sides."

15             You don't mention or you didn't mention in the Popovic report

16     parapolice.  Why was that?  Why did you introduce the word "parapolice"

17     into this report?

18        A.   Ms. Korner, both reports were authored by me.  And you will allow

19     for the right of the author to change some parts or re-use them as a

20     whole if I wrote them.

21        Q.   Yes.  I -- I quite understand.  Of course, you have the right to

22     do that.  I'm simply asking why you introduced the word "parapolice" when

23     you wrote this report?

24        A.   I suppose it's because the second report has more to do with the

25     police, as we all know.  And that was probably the reason why I

Page 23937

 1     introduced the term.

 2        Q.   Yes.  But you're giving a general, as it were, overview in both

 3     reports, and you're saying, These are the combatants on either side of

 4     the divide, as it were, and they don't change, do they, simply because

 5     the police is about the police in this case, but not about the police in

 6     General Gvero?

 7        A.   Yes, Ms. Korner.  But in the trial, because of which I'm here

 8     now, the focus is on 1992, in which year, as we have seen, only about

 9     halfway through the year, the defence system in the Army of

10     Republika Srpska was -- was made legal.

11        Q.   I'm sorry, General.  What you were talking about in both

12     paragraphs in both reports was the forces in 1992 when the conflict broke

13     out.

14             So why did you mention parapolice in this report and not in the

15     last report?

16             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, for one thing, these

17     are three questions, merged into one.  And, secondly, if Ms. Korner wants

18     to quote the paragraph, she should also point out that in the Gvero

19     report, the period is from 1992 through 1995; whereas, this here deals

20     only with 1992.  So it is not the same period referred to.

21             MS. KORNER:  I agree.  It's -- but it starts in 1992.  But this

22     is a small point and I'm going to ask just one other question.

23        Q.   General, what on -- sorry.  What do you mean by "parapolice"?

24     You see, you were asked that at page 23647, and you explained -- well,

25     you didn't explain, I suggest -- I'm sorry, 23645, and all you said was:

Page 23938

 1             [As read] "All these newly formed forces" - and this is 23646 -

 2     "were accompanied by a number of different paramilitary and parapolice

 3     forces?"

 4             So please tell us what do you call a parapolice force as opposed

 5     to a paramilitary force?

 6        A.   Ms. Korner, from the start of the armed conflict, armed conflicts

 7     in the former Yugoslavia, from Slovenia, through Croatia, to

 8     Bosnia-Herzegovina, I had personal experience with parapolice forces

 9     because I met them.  When the conflicts broke out, the practice in those

10     republics was that there were regular police forces of the Ministry of

11     the Interior, but, in parallel, some individuals put on uniforms, set up

12     check-points of their own accord, and stopped JNA members.  For example,

13     in Croatia, there was the regular MUP and besides, there were parapolice

14     forces that we colloquially called Zengas and they were not controlled by

15     the MUP, or at least as far as I know.

16        Q.   But, are you simply saying that armed men wearing uniform, and by

17     that I take it you mean camouflage, who were setting up check-points

18     you're calling parapolice?

19             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] I think this is not a correct

20     interpretation of what this witness said, because if Ms. Korner wants to

21     quote the witness she has to quote everything that he said, not to pick

22     out one characteristic of the forces that the witness is talking about.

23             MS. KORNER:  Yes.  I am picking out what he has just said:  "Some

24     individuals put on uniforms, set up check-points of their own accord and

25     stopped JNA members."

Page 23939

 1             MR. KRGOVIC:  And they're out of control and command of regular

 2     MUP.

 3             JUDGE HALL:  Don't -- don't give evidence, Mr. Krgovic.  But I

 4     don't know to what extent, as Ms. Korner has indicated, we're dealing

 5     with a translation problem, but I, too, am curious about what the witness

 6     means, and I would invite her to head down the path she is headed.

 7             MS. KORNER:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 8        Q.   Right, General, are you calling parapolice armed men in

 9     camouflage uniform who set up check-points and stopped the JNA?

10        A.   Ms. Korner, once the armed conflicts broke out --

11        Q.   [Previous translation continued] ...

12        A.   -- and all the way to --

13        Q.   I'm sorry, I'm going to stop you.  Because unless you answer my

14     questions directly we will be here for a lot, lot longer.

15             Now, please, answer the question directly:  Are you calling

16     parapolice forces men in camouflage uniform, armed men, who set up

17     check-points and stopped the JNA?

18        A.   The Yugoslav People's Army was the only regular force.  That's

19     what I wanted to say.  Anyone else was not under its control or under the

20     control of the Territorial Defence units was paramilitary.  If it was not

21     under the control of the Ministry of Interior, then we're talking about

22     parapolice forces.

23             And as for specific check-points, I would need to know which

24     check-point is -- that we're talking about, who set it up, whether there

25     was anyone commanding it, and so on and so forth.

Page 23940

 1        Q.   That's the whole point, isn't it, General?  These were armed men,

 2     under allegedly nobody's control, and the generic term, as you used in

 3     the Popovic case, is "paramilitary," isn't it?

 4        A.   That's correct.

 5        Q.   And I'm asking you, to go back to my original point and let me

 6     put it to you directly:  Did you end the word "parapolice" in order to

 7     assist the Defence of Mr. Zupljanin and for no other reason?

 8        A.   No.

 9        Q.   All right.  Let me turn to the next part of your report where

10     there are differences.

11             MS. KORNER:  Can we go, please, to paragraph 43 in the Popovic --

12     sorry, in the present report, which is -- I think it's the same page,

13     page 16 in English.  And in B/C/S, it should be page 6 still.  So that

14     would be -- it's backwards, it's page 5.

15             First of all, let's have a look at the present report.

16             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Ms. Korner.

17             MS. KORNER:  Yes.

18             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Before we move onto something else, I apologise

19     for not having picked up the points that you tried to elicit from the

20     General.

21             But, General, forgive me, I still quite have not understood why

22     you would call these men parapolice rather than paramilitary or something

23     else.  They -- the reason I'm asking is that, on the face of it, these

24     men to whom you referred in your earlier report, would seem to belong to

25     the groups that we have referred to throughout this trial as paramilitary

Page 23941

 1     forces.

 2             So is there any particular reason why you would link them up with

 3     the police by calling them "parapolice forces"?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, there were some

 5     instances, and I told you that I have come across them, in which

 6     policemen would leave their public security stations with their official

 7     IDs and use the authority to stop people, maltreat them, but did not take

 8     part in specific military operations.  They were discharging police

 9     duties, but they were not under the control of the regular Ministry of

10     Interior.

11             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Were they dressed in police uniforms?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There were various uniforms.

13     Everyone fetched for himself.  They would wear what they could find at

14     home or what they had with them at the moment when they left their

15     stations.

16             JUDGE HARHOFF:  I see.  Thank you.

17             Please proceed, Ms. Korner.

18             MS. KORNER:

19        Q.   [Microphone not activated] I'm sorry, you say:  There were some

20     instances, you came across them, [As read] "in which policemen would

21     leave their public security station with their official IDs and use the

22     authority to stop people, maltreat them, but did not take part in

23     specific military operations."

24             How did come across them?

25        A.   While leaving the commands for the units, I sometimes came across

Page 23942

 1     those barricades and check-points in the Republic of Croatia.

 2        Q.   Well, I'm sorry.  How do you know that the people at the

 3     check-points had left their public security stations with their IDs, as

 4     opposed to getting false IDs?

 5        A.   I'm familiar with that fact.

 6        Q.   Well, I think we've dealt with that.

 7             If this was something you knew of your own experience, and you've

 8     explained that part of your report is from your own experience, why did

 9     you not put it into the Popovic report?

10        A.   Ms. Korner, the report which I wrote for the Stanisic and

11     Zupljanin case included mention of these forces because here, in this

12     case, we are dealing with the use of police units in combat operations.

13     Therefore, I wanted to acquaint this Tribunal with the fact that there

14     were also parapolice forces present at the time.  Though this is

15     something that is well known.

16        Q.   Are you able to name any of these so-called parapolice forces?

17     In other words, like the Wolves of Vucak, or anything like that?

18        A.   I agree with you that it is very difficult, and it was very

19     difficult in practice, to distinguish between paramilitary and parapolice

20     forces.  Only in instances when they participated in some combat

21     operations, I would call them paramilitaries.  If they stopped people and

22     showed their official IDs, then they acted as parapolice.  I know from

23     documents which I have come across that, on the ground, there were, if I

24     remember well, more than 50 paramilitary and such parapolice formations

25     during the war.

Page 23943

 1        Q.   Are you able to tell us what documents?

 2        A.   I do not know the exact number of the document.  But I think that

 3     this is an report, perhaps from the Main Staff or from the corps command,

 4     concerning the existence of these formations, with their names, and the

 5     acts they committed.

 6        Q.   [Previous translation continued] ... Yes.

 7        A.   You mentioned one of them.

 8        Q.   [Previous translation continued] ... Yes, you're talking, I take

 9     it, about General Tolimir -- Colonel Tolimir, as he then was, report on

10     paramilitary formations; is that right?

11        A.   Yes, I think it was that report.

12        Q.   Which you were shown by either Mr. Krgovic, or Mr. Cvijetic - and

13     I can't remember which - when you came here.

14        A.   Yes, I think so.  Or perhaps I found that in the footnotes of

15     Mr. Brown's report.

16        Q.   Right.  But you hadn't read it -- well, firstly, were you aware

17     of the existence of Colonel Tolimir's report before you wrote this

18     present report?

19        A.   I think so, yes.

20        Q.   How?

21             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Ms. Korner, before we continue with this list,

22     there's still something that is not really clear to me.

23             General, you -- you -- you said in answering a question,

24     Ms. Korner's question:  "... policemen would leave their public security

25     station with their official IDs and use the authority to stop people,

Page 23944

 1     maltreat them, but did not take part in specific military operations."

 2             Then you continue:  "They were discharging police duties, but

 3     they were not under the control of the regular Ministry of Interior."

 4             And then - and I have to find that part - you add:

 5             [As read] "On the distinction between paramilitary and

 6     parapolice, I would call them paramilitary if they stopped -- I would

 7     call them paramilitary," no, sorry.  "If they stopped people and showed

 8     their official IDs then they acted as parapolice."

 9             Do I take it that you mean regular police officers leaving

10     their -- their -- their police building with their IDs, discharging

11     police duties but not under the control of the Ministry of Interior when

12     then they stop people showing their official document, they were

13     parapolice?

14             Is that what you mean?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Precisely so.  And I emphasised,

16     whoever was not under the control of the regular, that is to say, the

17     state-controlled forces.  They were then either paramilitaries or the

18     parapolice.

19             JUDGE DELVOIE:  And what makes you conclude that a regular police

20     officer that goes into the street and stops people is not under the

21     control of the Ministry of Interior?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I emphasised:  If

23     they were not.

24             That is to say, if they were doing that without permission or

25     without the authorisation of the authorised superior.

Page 23945

 1             JUDGE DELVOIE:  So, in your opinion, that turns them into

 2     parapolice?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's right.

 4             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

 5             Please proceed, Ms. Korner.

 6             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, it's easier actually if we can do it

 7     this way.  We've got hard copies for both accused of the B/C/S version of

 8     the report.  And if we -- those could be handed -- or, the two reports,

 9     rather, the one from this case and the one from Popovic.  It makes it

10     easier then, if we can have the English up on the screen without the

11     B/C/S.  I'll give the B/C/S references.  And also for the witness, if he

12     needs it.  But I think he has got copies of both his reports.

13             So could we have up on the screen, please, only in English, page

14     16 of the English report, paragraph, starting:  "Formation organisation

15     and tasks ..."

16             And in the Popovic report it will be page 5 in e-court.  I want

17     the Popovic -- I don't want two English versions of this report.  I want

18     the Popovic report, please.  Thank you.  No, it's the next -- it's the

19     next page, please.  It's page 6.

20        Q.   Now, very small point, and I don't want to labour it --

21        A.   [In English] Sorry, sorry --

22        Q.   And in B/C/S could you go to your own reports, please, at

23     paragraph 43 of this report, and it's page ... page 6 of your Popovic

24     report.  Now it's a small point, on paragraph 43 of this report, you

25     said:  "The war in the former Yugoslav Socialist Republic of Bosnia and

Page 23946

 1     Herzegovina was the result of" --

 2             JUDGE HALL:  Ms. Korner, the witness was trying to signal

 3     something.

 4             MS. KORNER:  No, I think he was signalling all he has got on the

 5     screen is English.  But I've given him -- he has his own reports in his

 6     own language.

 7             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, that's what I thought.

 8             MR. KRGOVIC:  [Microphone not activated] ... paragraph in B/C/S

 9     which you're reading in the English.  So can we have one, maybe, copy for

10     the witness in B/C/S because I think one more is left.  Ah, sorry.

11     Please.

12             MS. KORNER:  All right.  Well, Your Honours, I was going to try

13     to save time but, in fact, it's just lengthening matters.

14             Could we have, please, page 16, paragraph 43, in English of the

15     present report.  And I don't know -- and in B/C/S, the same paragraph.

16     Same page.

17             It's paragraph -- it's the same -- I want the same paragraph in

18     B/C/S, 43.

19             Right.  Yes.  No.  It should be 3.  Paragraph 43 in B/C/S.  And

20     paragraph 43 in English.  In the report in this case, please.  Which is

21     31D2.

22        Q.   Right.  In paragraph 43 in this report you talk about the war was

23     the result of a lack of either will or ability of political leaderships.

24             In paragraph 45, you say:  [As read] "It was obvious that the

25     Muslim-Croatian part of the Bosnia-Herzegovina leadership wanted to

Page 23947

 1     declare independence of Bosnia and Herzegovina without the agreements

 2     [sic] of the representatives of the Serbian people."

 3             MS. KORNER:  And can we go, please, to the next page in each to

 4     look at paragraph 49.

 5        Q.   You say:  {As read] "Territorial Defence units and/or staffs in

 6     the municipalities" blah, blah, "paramilitary formations were

 7     incorporated into all regular armed formations with different degrees of

 8     resubordination."

 9             And let's emphasise the word "resubordination" there.

10             MS. KORNER:  Now can we go, please, to the same part of your

11     report in Popovic.  It is page 6 in English.  Sorry, that was a --

12             Page what?  No.  Sorry.

13             Yes, page 6 in B/C/S.  Sorry, it does.

14             No, sorry.  It's --

15             JUDGE HALL:  Ms. Korner, not -- notwithstanding the break we had

16     this morning, in order to keep to the regular times of sittings, perhaps

17     we could take the break now and these problems can be sorted out when we

18     come back and you continue.

19             MS. KORNER:  Yes, certainly.  That's the difficulty with having

20     English and B/C/S.  But, anyhow, I'll try and get the pages more

21     accurately.

22             JUDGE HALL:  So we resume in 20 minutes.

23                           [The witness stands down]

24                           --- Recess taken at 10.26 a.m.

25                           --- On resuming at 10.52 a.m.

Page 23948

 1                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 2                           [The witness takes the stand]

 3             MS. KORNER:  Yes.

 4        Q.   We now have, General, the equivalent part of your Popovic report

 5     with the one we were looking at earlier, which is the formation, manning

 6     and organisation of the Army of Republika Srpska.

 7             Now, the first unnumbered paragraph here is the equivalent of

 8     your paragraph 43, as we looked at earlier, in 43, you talked about a

 9     lack of either will or ability of political leaderships.  Here, you say

10     it was a consequence of the unwillingness and inability.

11             It's a small point, but why did you change that?

12        A.   I do not remember why I changed it, but I don't think it

13     essentially changes the meaning, and I stand by the position that I

14     stated in my later work.

15        Q.   Right.  Well, paragraph 3 on this page is the equivalent of the

16     beginning of your paragraph 45.  Here, you simply state that "the

17     political leaders of the Serbian people ... on the basis of a popular

18     will ... withdrew from the collective BiH organs ..."

19             In paragraph 45 that we looked at you said that it was obvious

20     that the Muslim-Croatian part of the Bosnia-Herzegovina leadership wanted

21     to declare independence of Bosnia and Herzegovina without the agreement

22     of the representatives of the Serbian people.

23             What made you change the fairly neutral, if I can put that way,

24     political leaders of the Serbian people, to:  [As read] "It was obvious

25     that the Muslim-Croatian part of the BH leadership wanted to declare

Page 23949

 1     independence," or it should read, really, "the independence of Bosnia and

 2     Herzegovina."

 3             Which is a criticism, isn't it, of the so-called Muslim-Croatian

 4     leadership?

 5        A.   Ms. Korner, I stand by what I wrote in paragraph 45 of my latter

 6     report.

 7        Q.   You may well stand by it, General.  My question is:  What made

 8     you change a neutral proposition to one that is a critical proposition?

 9        A.   To my mind, this is not essential for the topic of the later

10     report that I drafted for this Tribunal, and I do not remember what

11     guided me.

12        Q.   Could that have been one of the discussions you had with

13     Mr. Krgovic that made you change that sentence?

14        A.   I do not think I discussed this with Mr. Krgovic.

15        Q.   All right.  Then in the -- under the A, the formation of the VRS,

16     the paragraph that begins:  [As read] "The referendum on the independence

17     of Bosnia and Herzegovina on the 29th and 1st of March, 1992."

18             The equivalent of that in your present report is paragraph 47.

19     You say that in the Popovic report which we have on the screen:  "The

20     Serbian people took no part in the referendum?"

21             In your present report, you add:  [As read] "International

22     recognition of Bosnia and Herzegovina as an independent state soon

23     followed, accompanied by the inflamed rhetoric of warmongering, increased

24     frequency of armed clashes, and polarisation in the armed forces ..."

25             What made you add that?

Page 23950

 1        A.   Ms. Korner, I told you that I had only used parts of this report.

 2     You will admit that it was my right as an author to amend or change some

 3     of my earlier formulations.

 4        Q.   Of course, it's your right, General.  And I wouldn't deny that

 5     for one moment.  But we're interested in -- or at least the Court may

 6     like to know, what lay behind your changes, your methodology.

 7             So I'm asking you:  Why did you add that in to your present

 8     report?

 9        A.   I probably had more information when I wrote the new report than

10     at the time when I wrote the first one.

11        Q.   But you -- I'm sorry.

12        A.   Let me remind you that I wrote my first report while I was still

13     an active-duty officer; whereas, I was already retired for two years when

14     I wrote my second report, and that gave me more time to read.

15        Q.   But you give no footnote at all for this assertion.  So what is

16     it based on?  A book?  Documents?

17        A.   It is based on known facts that international recognition soon

18     ensued.  And in the previous paragraphs, I mentioned the dates of the

19     referendum.

20        Q.   Yes.  Again, without footnotes, but I'll come back to that.

21             MS. KORNER:  Can we look then, please, at the next page in -- I

22     think it's -- just let me check that actually.

23             Can we find the part does it say in B/C/S on:  "All these armed

24     formations included paramilitary forces ..."

25             Yes, it does, actually.  Same page, but with the next page in

Page 23951

 1     English, please.  It's the penultimate paragraph on that page.

 2             Could we look at the next page in English of this report.  Thank

 3     you.

 4        Q.   [As read] "All these armed formations included paramilitary

 5     formations with different levels of subordination to regular military

 6     forces."

 7             That is the equivalent of your paragraph 49 in the present report

 8     but you state there:  [As read] "paramilitary formations were

 9     incorporated in all regular armed formations with different degrees of

10     resubordination."

11             Now, can you just check, please, because you've got your present

12     report there, I think, that the translation is correct.  You say

13     "resubordination" in paragraph 49; and "subordination" in your original

14     report.

15        A.   Ms. Korner, in both reports, the word used is "potcinjavanje,"

16     subordination.

17        Q.   All right.  That's why I thought I'd check.  All right.  In that

18     case, that is not a point that I wish to pursue.

19             MS. KORNER:  Can we go now, please, to -- in the English -- well,

20     let's stick to that report while we're on that page.  Could we go to

21     page 8, please, in English, and in B/C/S, to page 7, I think.

22        Q.   Actually, I should have asked you, the word that you've used in

23     both reports originally which you say means subordination -- does it mean

24     subordination or resubordination?

25        A.   Subordination.

Page 23952

 1        Q.   Subordination.  Thank you.

 2             All right.  In this paragraph there, you say:  "In the defence

 3     and security system of the Republic, the VRS is defined ..."

 4             Now it's been translated as "an armed force."

 5             Can I ask you, please, just to just read out that sentence,

 6     please.

 7             Beginning:  "In the defence and security system of the

 8     Republic ..."

 9        A.    [As read] "In the defence and security system of the Republic,

10     the VRS is defined as an armed force, the task of which is to defend the

11     sovereignty, territory, independence and constitutional order of

12     Republika Srpska."

13        Q.   So the word which is in B/C/S "kao," k-a-o, means "a," or "an,"

14     does it, rather than "the"?  In other words, the difference being "an"

15     means -- suggests there is another force.  "The" means it is the only

16     armed force.  It has been translated as both in the English, so I want to

17     know which is the right translation.

18        A.   Ms. Korner, this is about the Army of Republika Srpska being an

19     armed force --

20        Q.   [Previous translation continued] ... sorry, my fault.  Go on.

21        A.   It can be seen from the footnote that I cited that I couldn't

22     formulate it differently from the language used in the law.  And that law

23     was adopted in June 1992.  And we spoke about this last week and said

24     that there was only the army that was an armed force.


Page 23953

 1             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  In the Serbian language

 2     there is no article.

 3             MS. KORNER:  I'm not sure what that means, "there's no article."

 4     [Microphone not activated].  There's no "a".

 5             THE INTERPRETER:  Exactly.

 6             MS. KORNER:  All right.

 7        Q.   All right.  The only thing I want to put to you about that is, in

 8     fact, the police was an armed force, wasn't it?  The police had arms,

 9     weapons?

10        A.   Ms. Korner, if we're talking about the international law of war,

11     it is clearly defined there what is to be considered part of the armed

12     forces.  At that time, according to the national legislation, the police,

13     under the law cited here, was not part of the armed forces.

14        Q.   [Previous translation continued] ... no, I'm sorry, you

15     misunderstand.

16             The police is not defined as part of the military, if you like,

17     but it was, in reality, an armed force, was it not?

18        A.   It was armed and it became part of the armed forces at the moment

19     when it becomes part of the complement of a military unit, as I have

20     already explained and when the police are commanded by a military

21     officer [Realtime transcript read in error "an officer"].

22        Q.   We're going slightly sidetracked.  There were, in fact,

23     differences between the two reports, but -- at this page, but I want to

24     move on to a rather bigger difference, please.

25             MR. ZECEVIC:  I'm terribly sorry.  27, 10 I believe the witness

Page 23954

 1     said "commanded by a military officer."

 2             But you can, perhaps, check it out.

 3             MS. KORNER:  Yes, I accept that.

 4        Q.   Did you say, General, that the police were commanded by a

 5     military officer?

 6        A.   Yes, that's what I said.

 7        Q.   All right.  Can we look -- because we might as well stick to one

 8     report because otherwise we're going back and forth all the time.

 9             Can we look now, please, at page 9 of the report in B/C/S and

10     English under the section C, marked:  Organisation.

11             In the second paragraph there, you say:  "The extensive nature of

12     the territory of the Republika Srpska and the great length of the front

13     line ..."

14             Yes, C, organisation.  So it's the next page, please, in B/C/S.

15             Thank you.

16             [As read] "The extensive nature of the territory of the

17     Republika Srpska and the great length of the front line, as well as

18     certain political beliefs, led to tactical units being organised on the

19     territorial principle ..."

20             Now can we have a look, please, at the report for this case, at

21     paragraph 65.

22             Yes, if we can perhaps highlight it in the English.

23             There you say:  "The extended area of Republika Srpska" instead

24     of "the extensive nature of Republika Srpska," but I think it may be

25     translation:  "And the great length of its line of engagement."

Page 23955

 1             Before that, it was front line:  "As well as certain political

 2     beliefs."

 3             So that is the same as your Popovic report.  But then we get

 4     this:  [As read] "And the influence of local, particularly municipal,

 5     organs of authority on the army and police command and control, led to

 6     tactical units being organised on the territorial principle ..."

 7             Now those words, "the influence of local, particularly municipal,

 8     organs of authority on army and police command and control," have been

 9     added by you in this report.  Why?

10        A.   Ms. Korner, it is really difficult for me to defend two reports

11     at the same time, even though they're mine.

12             But it's not a problem.  This is, again, an extended formulation,

13     and I repeat, that I stand by the language used in the more recent

14     report.

15        Q.   Yes.  But I want to know how you came to add that.  "The

16     influence of local, particularly municipal ... "

17             Did you add that after you'd had a discussion with Mr. Krgovic?

18     A dilemma?

19        A.   I do not remember speaking to Mr. Krgovic about this, but it must

20     certainly be the -- be due to some new insight I gained.

21        Q.   Yes.  But is that new insight from Mr. Krgovic who explained to

22     you that part of the defence in this case was to assert that the police

23     were being controlled by the municipal Crisis Staffs.

24             Did he tell you that?

25        A.   I may have seen that in some documents.

Page 23956

 1        Q.   Well, there's not a footnote there, nor do you refer to a single

 2     Crisis Staff document in your bibliography.  So where did you get that

 3     from, if not from Mr. Krgovic?

 4        A.   I have already told you that I frequently went to the RS.  And I

 5     mentioned that my brother was a police officer all the time, and still

 6     is.

 7        Q.   So are you saying that your brother, at some stage between your

 8     writing the Popovic report and writing this report, told you that "local,

 9     particularly municipal, organs of authority ..." had an influence on the

10     police?

11        A.   Ms. Korner, you are insisting on my refreshing my memory.  I'm

12     not sure how I arrived at this very formulation, but I'm sure that it's

13     part of the preparations and the efforts I made when writing my report.

14     And I maintain that it is true.

15        Q.   We go back to the importance of footnoting.  But, I'm sorry, I'm

16     going to, as you put it, insist, how is it that you changed in some - you

17     wrote your Popovic report, I think, in 2008 -- almost.  March 2008, so

18     exactly three years ago - that you suddenly decided to add that it was

19     "local, particularly municipal, organs of authority" who affected the

20     police, command and control issues in the police and army?

21        A.   Ms. Korner, in the other report, the subject I researched was

22     different.  I had to add some elements, in order to emphasise what I was

23     saying so that my expert contribution would be as great as possible.

24        Q.   Yes.  But, you see, you didn't just say about the police.  You

25     said it was the army as well.  And if it was the army, then why wasn't it

Page 23957

 1     in your original Popovic report?

 2        A.   It's possible that I left it out in the first report.

 3        Q.   Yes.  Didn't you put it into this report, as I say, because

 4     Mr. Krgovic told you that part of the defence in this case was to blame

 5     the municipal organs, the Crisis Staffs?

 6             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Is there anything disputed about

 7     the fact in this case that there was some influence of the local organs

 8     on the work of the military and the police?  I think this is part of the

 9     OTP arguments, if they are disputing this.

10             MS. KORNER:  This is disgraceful.  I am properly cross-examining

11     the General.  Interruptions like this to assist the General are improper.

12                           [Defence counsel confer]

13             MS. KORNER:  The reason that I'm asking the General this, is not

14     because of what the evidence in the case is but why he changed his

15     report.

16        Q.   Now, General, I'm asking you for the last time:  Did you put that

17     in because of your knowledge of the Defence in this case from

18     Mr. Krgovic, or any other member of his team?

19        A.   No.

20        Q.   Your brother who was a police officer in Prnjavor, what was his

21     rank?

22        A.   I don't know exactly, but he was one of the people who were in

23     charge at the local police station.

24        Q.   Well, surely you know what rank.  Was he a commander of the

25     police station, chief of the SJB, an inspector?

Page 23958

 1        A.   No, he was neither of these.  But he may have been the head of

 2     one of the departments.

 3        Q.   Well, which -- he may have been anything.  But which department?

 4        A.   The police department in that particular station.  I very rarely

 5     talk with him about his specific duties.

 6        Q.   But he was able to give you, you tell us, this information about

 7     the "influence of local, particularly municipal, organs of authority"?

 8        A.   I have told you that because I know.  And I told you that I

 9     discussed with him because he was fighting in the war for four years.

10     Sometimes he had to leave the local public security station and go as far

11     as 2- or 300 kilometres away.

12             MS. KORNER:  Would Your Honours forgive me.  I just want to check

13     whether I ...

14        Q.   Yes.  While we are on -- this is the last part that I want to ask

15     you about.  Paragraph 192 onwards.  Page 39 in English.  And in B/C/S,

16     it's ...

17             You say in this report:  [As read] "The VRS chain of command

18     extends from the president of the republic, in his capacity as the

19     Commander-in-Chief, via the commander of the Main Staff" --

20             MS. KORNER:  Next page in English, please.

21        Q.   "... and commanders down ... to every single individual."

22             Then, 193:  [As read] "No persons other than commanders (or, in

23     their absence, chiefs of staff) were ever part of the chain of

24     command ..."

25             194, you talk about the line of reporting.

Page 23959

 1             And then 195:  [As read] "All of the above that pertains to the

 2     commanding function and the chain of command also pertains to temporary

 3     formations and resubordinated units."

 4             Again, is the word "subordinated" or "resubordinated"?

 5        A.   The formulation here is "resubordinated units."

 6        Q.   All right.  So there it is actually "resubordinated."

 7             Now can we look, please, at the equivalent --

 8        A.   May I just add that there is a difference between subordination

 9     and resubordination.  If you would like me to explain that.  Because

10     these notions are not the same.

11        Q.   No.  And I think you have explained it.  A subordinate unit is

12     one that is there and comes under the command during the course of its

13     normal functions, I suppose you can put it; and resubordinated is when

14     you get a unit that would not normally be subordinated that comes under

15     that command.

16             Is that an accurate summary?

17        A.   Well, not quite.

18        Q.   All right.  You explain, please.  Briefly.

19        A.   Resubordination, that we are using here, is a case in which a

20     commander has a certain unit and for the needs of a specific task, he

21     then selects a part of his own unit and attaches it to another unit.  So

22     that is the act of resubordinating it.  And once this is completed, then

23     the relationship is one of subordination.  And there is another case,

24     which is most frequent, when we are talking about police or some other

25     formations which are not part of the unit, then they are attached and

Page 23960

 1     this is called attaching them.  But, once again, even in such a case the

 2     relationship is one of subordination.  So we talked about these acts and

 3     about the relationship.

 4        Q.   Right.  Now can we look, please, at your Popovic report at

 5     page 15 in English.  And I think it's page 14 -- 13 in the B/C/S.

 6             Do you see the paragraph that begins:

 7             [As read] "The chain of command in the VRS was supposed to extend

 8     from the president of the republic as Supreme Commander to the

 9     General Staff commander, to the commanders of operational-tactical and

10     tactical units and through all the commanders of smaller units to each

11     individual.  However, it was the habit of the president of the republic

12     to command, while disregarding the commander of the General Staff.

13     Contrary to regulations, the Supreme Commander sometimes issued

14     assignments to corps and even brigades."

15             Where do we see any of that in your present report?

16        A.   I did not believe that I had to copy everything from the previous

17     report into the new one.  In the first part, I referred in the footnote

18     to a formulation that is here.

19        Q.   But, I'm sorry, General.  I -- you can change your report, and

20     you have changed your report.  In this respect, I'm asking why.  Because

21     in your present report, you don't give any of the caveats that we see in

22     this paragraph.

23             So what made you drop the caveats?

24        A.   I don't remember, Ms. Korner.

25        Q.   All right.  That's all that I want to ask you.

Page 23961

 1             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, may I ask now, given that we've been

 2     through quite a lot of this report, that his Popovic report be made an

 3     exhibit in the case, so that the differences are clear.

 4             JUDGE HALL:  I'm not sure I follow why, Ms. Korner.

 5             MS. KORNER:  Because there are substantial differences between

 6     what he's got in the Popovic report on the same topic and those that he

 7     has in this report.

 8             If, at the end of the day, you decide not to admit his report for

 9     this case, then that's fine.  But, at the moment, I'm working on the

10     basis that you may decide to admit it; and, therefore, it is important

11     that one can see the differences in the two reports.

12                           [Trial Chamber and Legal Officer confer]

13             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Krgovic -- sorry, Mr. Zecevic, whichever of you

14     wants to go first.

15             MR. ZECEVIC:  Your Honours, I do strongly object to this.  The

16     position so far in this trial has been that if -- if the issue is on the

17     transcript, which it is, with the -- with the answers -- with the

18     witness's answer on the transcript there is certainly no need to -- to

19     admit another document.  I can name a number of instances when -- when --

20     when that was the -- that was the decision of the Trial Chamber.

21     Especially in a case when we have an expert witness and now we are

22     admitting the expert report which has nothing to do with this.  It's from

23     another case.

24             I object to this, Your Honours.  Thank you.

25             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Krgovic.

Page 23962

 1             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Once again, if this report is to be

 2     admitted the problem is with the footnotes because the footnote quoted by

 3     Ms. Korner in the specific example talks about the Operation Srebrenica

 4     in 1995 and the command, so we would have to admit the footnote with the

 5     exhibit which the witness referred to here.  Because the question was

 6     taken out of the context of the report.

 7             And that would bring us into a situation where we would have to

 8     include all these parts.  Because specifically when Ms. Korner talked

 9     about the part that was left out, what is mentioned is a specific

10     transcript and a specific event from 1995.  So we should include that

11     transcript as well.

12             MS. KORNER: [Microphone not activated] ... the point has been

13     lost slightly.

14             This is previous, we suggest, previous inconsistent statements

15     made by this witness.  It goes wholly and completely to the credibility

16     of his report in this case and his credibility as a witness.  It is

17     therefore important that if anybody wants to check - it's got nothing to

18     do with the admitting of the footnotes - we need to have that report

19     there.

20             JUDGE HALL:  Ms. Korner, as Mr. Krgovic has said, and I fully

21     appreciate the path you have gone down of challenging the witness's

22     credibility on previous inconsistent statements.  But as Mr. Zecevic has

23     said, the relevant parts have been put to him and are now part of the

24     transcript.  Why do we need to burden ourselves with this report?  For

25     the Trial Chamber itself to conduct a side by side compare and contrast

Page 23963

 1     exercise.

 2             MS. KORNER:  If necessary, Your Honours.  I have skipped some

 3     things.  There are other parts of that report that are different.

 4             Your Honours, unless it's made an exhibit - and I confess, I fail

 5     to see the difficulty with this - there's no way of dealing with it.

 6     It's not enough to say -- otherwise I'm going to take up even more time

 7     by going through other differences.  But, Your Honour, my suggestion,

 8     clearly put, is that there are differences.  And one of the matters that

 9     Your Honours will have to consider is what those differences are and --

10     and -- and, I suppose, how major they are.

11                           [Trial Chamber confers]

12             JUDGE HALL:  The Chamber is not persuaded that this earlier

13     report should be admitted.  The -- it is it patent from the record the

14     challenge that the Prosecution has made to the credibility of the witness

15     based on what, in the Prosecution's view, are inconsistent statements.

16     And no doubt at the appropriate stage arguments would be advanced along

17     those lines.  But we see no need to admit this earlier report as a

18     separate exhibit.

19             MS. KORNER:

20        Q.   I want to turn, General, now to the footnotes in your present

21     report.

22             Would you accept that in comparison with the reports you looked

23     at over the weekend from Dr. Nielsen and Mr. Brown, your report is very

24     sparsely footnoted?

25        A.   I agree.

Page 23964

 1        Q.   And, as we established when I first asking [sic] you questions,

 2     would you accept that it is important when coming to conclusions to,

 3     first of all, look at the original, or copies of original documents if

 4     possible?

 5        A.   I agree.

 6        Q.   And that if footnoting, it's important to be accurate in -- in

 7     the -- the quote that you take from the book or from the document?

 8        A.   That's right.

 9        Q.   I want to start, first of all, with the footnote to your

10     paragraph 50.  Footnote number 10.  And that's page 17 in English of your

11     report.  That's paragraph 50.  Footnote number 10.

12             You cite, for the decision on the withdrawal, a book by some

13     people called Pavlovic and Popovic.  And can we just have a look at that,

14     please.  It is 20235, and it's tab 97.

15             Do you agree -- it's a photocopy that we've been provided of this

16     book that you've relied on entitled: "Succession orchestrated by the

17     great powers."

18             Is that right?

19        A.   That's correct.

20        Q.   Can we look, then, please, at the -- published in -- the next

21     page showing that it was published in Belgrade in 1996.  And then the

22     page thereafter in English which is the third page, and I hope it's --

23     the introduction.

24             [As read] "The disintegration of the SFRY began with Slovenia's

25     violent secession but the flames of the civil war were fanned by the

Page 23965

 1     newly formed Croatian Democratic Party's leadership.  With their violent

 2     secession, Slovenia and Croatia committed an aggression against the state

 3     of the SFRY and, together about Bosnia and Herzegovina's Muslims, started

 4     a civil war, causing immense human casualties and suffering in the

 5     territory of the former Yugoslavia."

 6             If we skip the next sentence:  "Not even the apocalyptic [sic]

 7     vision of a bloody civil war could deter primeval, hate-fueled

 8     secessionists from their plans."

 9             Would you agree that this is a very, very, one-sided view of the

10     conflict?

11        A.   Ms. Korner, in my work, I cited in the footnote what exactly it

12     was that I took from this book.  I did not use this introduction for my

13     report.

14        Q.   Yes, we'll see that.  But why did you use this book?

15        A.   Well, I had it in my personal library.  It was written by people

16     who have the highest qualifications.  It was issued by the -- published

17     by the Institute for Political Studies, which is an institution that has

18     a good reputation.  And I used it because, in the time that I had at my

19     disposal, I could not find the original order on the withdrawal of units

20     of JNA, which I needed, and I was aware that this piece of information

21     was exactly quoted in this book.

22        Q.   Yes.  But we'll come to that right now.  But you say you couldn't

23     find it.  And you were dependent, to a certain extent, on Mr. Krgovic's

24     provision of documents to you.  Did you ever ask Mr. Krgovic, Is there a

25     copy of the JNA withdrawal order that you could let me see?

Page 23966

 1        A.   Ms. Korner, I believed that to confirm this fact, it was

 2     sufficient to rely on a scientific and publicly published work, which

 3     included this information about the order and the withdrawal of JNA

 4     units.  And I do not see anything that can be contested about this piece

 5     of information.

 6        Q.   All right.  Well, let's have a look at another part of this

 7     scientific public work.

 8             MS. KORNER:  Could we go, please, in English to page 24.

 9             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I'm not sure where

10     this line of questioning of Ms. Korner is taking us.  We are discussing a

11     date, which is not at stake.  So what is the purpose of showing the

12     witness another paragraph from the book and saying that the book is like

13     this or like that.

14             The witness said clearly why he used this book as a source of

15     reference.

16             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Krgovic, I confess I agree with you entirely.

17             Ms. Korner, the -- how -- how is this -- if -- if the passages to

18     which you have referred and I don't know, of course, what you -- what

19     other passages you intend to refer the witness to are not passages that

20     he relied or cited with approval, where does this take us?

21             MS. KORNER:  Your Honour, in order to explain that, I'm going to

22     ask the witness to leave court.  I'm really sorry that Your Honour cannot

23     see it, and I will explain it, if Your Honours will allow me to explain

24     it, when I finish the part of the examination.

25             But, otherwise I would have to ask the witness to leave court.

Page 23967

 1             JUDGE HALL:  How long would it -- the reason why I'm asking is

 2     that we're 15 minutes away from the adjournment and I'm wondering if the

 3     witness being excused now should not think of returning until 12.25.

 4             MS. KORNER:  No, Your Honours, I'd like to finish this, it's very

 5     short and then move to the next footnote.  And when he has left, I can

 6     explain.

 7             JUDGE HALL:  You're asking him to leave now.

 8             MS. KORNER:  No.

 9             JUDGE HALL:  I'm sorry.  I misunderstood you.

10             MS. KORNER:  I'm asking to be allowed to continue this line of

11     cross-examination, with an explanation as to why I'm pursuing this when

12     we -- just before the break.

13                           [Trial Chamber confers]

14             MS. KORNER:  Otherwise, I will have to ask the witness to leave

15     court because he does speak English.

16                           [Trial Chamber confers]

17             JUDGE HALL:  Ms. Korner, it appears to us that this is, for the

18     moment, irrelevant.

19             So we would ask the witness to be excused so that you can make

20     your case as to why you should be permitted to continue.

21                           [The witness stands down]

22                           [Trial Chamber confers]

23             MS. KORNER:  Your Honour, the reason that I'm asking these

24     questions and putting another part of the book to him which is actually

25     opposite where he obtained this quote from, is to show that the witness

Page 23968

 1     is, to put it simply, an unapologetic Serb nationalist and apologist who

 2     is using books as part of his reading, if you like, for the preparation

 3     of these paper [sic] which are not proper academic books at all.

 4             Your Honour, you will see that most of the assertions he makes

 5     are totally unfootnoted.  And, therefore, it is important, which would

 6     submit, for the Court to see what he is relying on for his version of

 7     events, which is not documents at all, because he hasn't seen any, but

 8     books like this.

 9             JUDGE HALL:  But, Ms. Korner, isn't it a common experience that

10     no matter what field we're talking about in history, politics, religion,

11     that there would be authors whose views may generally be held to be quite

12     odious but somewhere buried in the pile of whatever, there is a germ of

13     truth, and isn't a witness entitled to mine for material in wherever it's

14     likely to be found.

15             I appreciate, from the passages that you have seen, that this

16     is -- this -- this book may be dismissed as a polemic, anti- -- pro-Serb

17     tirade but it does necessarily follow from those criticisms which attach

18     to the book that the portions on which the -- the witness relied

19     undermines his credibility.  The logic of that, with respect, I can't

20     follow.

21             MS. KORNER:  But, Your Honours, you will see that on a number of

22     occasions during the actual report, particularly the beginning parts, he

23     gives a view of the conflict clearly not based, because he has not seen

24     any of the documents, the beginnings and particularly the VRS, which he

25     has already said are based on his background reading and, Your Honour,

Page 23969

 1     this and he say this is one of the books in his library.  It is not

 2     surprising, we would submit that -- that the sort of views he expresses

 3     in his report in his general sections are written in the way that they

 4     are.  And unless Your Honours see what he is relying on, you cannot

 5     assess that.

 6             JUDGE HALL:  But the point that you made about -- you -- you made

 7     it today, I think you made it one day last week, in terms of his

 8     methodology that his - the paucity on the primary sources on which he

 9     relies, seriously affects the worth of the finished product, and,

10     ultimately, therefore, the weight, for our purposes the Trial Chamber

11     would give to it.  Isn't that sufficient without going down this road?

12             MS. KORNER:  Well, Your Honours, I'm hoping to persuade Your

13     Honours that it goes a great deal further than giving it weight, that at

14     the end of the day it should be, under Rule 95, struck out because there

15     has to come a point where the Trial Chamber should say, This can't go on.

16             But that's to jump ahead.

17             Your Honours, if Your Honours feel that his evident bias is

18     already present then I won't pursue this.  Because as I say, this comes

19     out because he takes the 4th of May decision from -- not only from the

20     main part of this -- this -- this tome but from a footnote which doesn't

21     give the document either.

22             So Your Honours, if that's evident, Your Honours, then I won't

23     pursue it but I can't take anything for granted.  And it is really

24     important, in our submission, that Your Honours have the full picture how

25     this man came to write the report and his background knowledge, the

Page 23970

 1     source of his background knowledge, his experience, which he is relying

 2     on.

 3             So that's the submissions that I make on why I'm doing this.

 4             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.

 5             Mr. Zecevic.

 6             MR. ZECEVIC:  Your Honours, I understood the -- the leave of the

 7     Trial Chamber to Ms. Korner is to -- to explain to us why she wants to

 8     insist on this particular answer and showing this particular book.

 9             However, what Ms. Korner is doing is she is testifying and making

10     the submissions on the expert report, which I don't think it is

11     appropriate at this point.

12             Now, Your Honours, I do object, because it is, a simply and very

13     clearly, and the witness -- the expert answered two times:  I used this

14     book for particular reason.  The date of the order to withdraw.  That is

15     the only thing.  So the footnote confirms the date of the order of the

16     withdrawal of the -- of the army from Bosnia and Herzegovina.

17             There is nothing from that book that he took except the date of

18     the order.  And he wrote that in his -- in his -- in -- in his expert

19     report, and explained over here.  So I don't see any basis for Ms. Korner

20     to claim what she claimed and made -- made a submission as she did, and

21     to answer any other question on this particular book.  Because this book

22     was used for the purposes for the very specific purpose of the date of

23     the order, which the witness knows by the -- by the way the -- that is

24     his testimony, that he knows that the order exists.  He just -- and he

25     knows that the -- that the date is accurate.

Page 23971

 1             I don't really see where we are with going in this respect.  I --

 2     I must say, that I think that with all due respect that Ms. Korner is

 3     just using up the time because we are not going to the merit of -- of the

 4     witness's -- witness's expert report for the fourth day in a row.  We're

 5     discussing -- I know that Ms. Korner is entitled to test the credibility

 6     of the witness, and I don't have a problem with that.  I surely -- I hope

 7     that the Trial Chamber will understand that as I understand it.  That --

 8     but I don't want to make submissions at this point.

 9             Thank you.

10             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you, Mr. Zecevic.

11             Do you wish to add anything, Mr. Krgovic [Microphone not

12     activated].

13             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I fully agree with

14     what Mr. Zecevic said.

15             MS. KORNER:  First, Your Honour, this is it not Mr. Zecevic's

16     witness, and Mr. Zecevic has a vested interest, as well as Mr. Krgovic,

17     from preventing this.  But it really is important because it is not just

18     the contents of the report.  But when you get something like this, using

19     material like this, for whatever reason, and the suggestion that we make,

20     and I think he has already confirmed it, is that he thinks -- I think he

21     said it was a scientific -- it was written by persons of the highest

22     qualifications and it is scientific and all the rest of it.

23             Now, Your Honours, it is important --

24             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Ms. Korner, I haven't had the time to check all

25     the footnotes, but are you able to tell us whether the General, in his

Page 23972

 1     report, refers to this book in other footnotes than footnote 10?

 2             MS. KORNER:  Your Honour, I think so.  So I would have to

 3     double-check that.  But I think he does.  Because I just picked on this

 4     particular footnote.

 5             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] I think not, Your Honour.  I

 6     believe that this is the only citation.

 7             MS. KORNER: [Previous translation continued] ... Mr. Smith has

 8     just checked and that's the only citation.

 9                           [Trial Chamber confers]

10             JUDGE HALL:  Well, we're near the break, so we will resume at

11     12.25.

12                           --- Recess taken at 12.02 p.m.

13                           --- On resuming at 12.32 p.m.

14                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

15             JUDGE HALL:  Before the witness is escorted back to the stand,

16     the Chamber has one question of Ms. Korner to which it requires a short

17     answer.  And that is whether you're in a position to, if you are

18     permitted to continue along this line of cross-examination of the

19     witness, point to any portion of his report which you could then argue or

20     suggest has its origin in this book that you're presently -- that you

21     presently have up.

22             MS. KORNER:  Do you mean a direct quote from the book?

23             JUDGE HALL:  Not necessarily a direct quote.  But we thought we

24     understood your line of questions to be that -- apart from the specific

25     citation in the footnote that we all agree is what the witness admitted

Page 23973

 1     he relied on this book for.  We thought that the purpose of your intended

 2     line of questions was that the witness's -- that -- that you would be in

 3     a position, if permitted to continue, to show that the witness -- that

 4     this witness's report --

 5             MS. KORNER:  Yes.  Your Honour, if you go to -- there's no direct

 6     quote.  What I'm putting to the witness is that his line of thinking,

 7     particularly in regard to the part of his report headed:  Formation,

 8     organisation and tasks of the armed forces of Republika Srpska, is

 9     heavily influenced by his reading of matter such as the book that I have

10     just pointed to.

11             We better have the screen, please, the section, Formation

12     organisation and tasks of the armed forces of Republika Srpska.

13             JUDGE HALL:  We don't know that we need the details.

14             MS. KORNER:  Oh, I see.

15             JUDGE HALL:  Your answer is you think can.

16             MS. KORNER:  I would suggest that certainly part of that is based

17     not just on the book, but his general reading of books which, as I put

18     it, are one-sided, as background to what he wrote in his report.

19                           [Trial Chamber confers]

20             JUDGE HALL:  So when the witness comes back in, we would permit

21     you to continue.  And you're on a short leash, Ms. Korner.  And we expect

22     that the -- the rest of time you have allotted to you, you would move

23     into the substance of his report.

24             MS. KORNER:  Yes, Your Honours.  I realise -- I've done very

25     little so far, strangely enough.  It was only about three and a half

Page 23974

 1     hours by the end of Friday.

 2             JUDGE HALL:  [Microphone not activated] It's now five hours and

 3     ten minutes.

 4             MS. KORNER:  Yes, thank you.

 5             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, so could the witness be conducted back to the

 6     stand, please.

 7                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 8                           [The witness takes the stand]

 9             MS. KORNER:

10        Q.   General, just before we go to the actual part where you took the

11     quote from, I was showing you a part of the book - I don't know what

12     we've got up at the moment - it should be page 24 in English.  Yes, it

13     is.  And the same in --

14             Do you see the paragraph in the B/C/S that begins:  "Instead of

15     having a calming effect ..." which is on the previous page in English.

16     Is it up on the page.  I can't tell.

17             Is there a paragraph there that begins:  "Instead of having a

18     calming effect ..."

19             MS. KORNER:  No, there isn't in the English, Your Honours.

20             The part of the English that I want to refer to is that first

21     paragraph which actually begins -- I'm almost beginning to think that

22     isn't worth the effort, Your Honours?

23        Q.   General, just answer the question, would you kind enough, is

24     there a paragraph in front of you on the page in B/C/S, that begins:

25     "Instead of having a calming effect ..."

Page 23975

 1             Is that the first paragraph?

 2        A.   [Overlapping speakers] ... Yes.

 3        Q.   Towards the end of that first paragraph, do we see these words:

 4     [As rea] "All barracks in towns where the Muslims and Croats were the

 5     majority population were exposed to fierce and unprovoked attacks.  The

 6     Serb civilian population was exposed to the same acts.  By means of

 7     horrific crimes over helpless elderly people, women, and even children,

 8     the Serb population was also threatened with physical extermination.  By

 9     that time, it had already become clear that the Muslim-Croatian

10     leadership had opted for the use of force against the Serb people and the

11     JNA in Bosnia and Herzegovina."

12             Now, General, as we'll see when we come to it, you adopted part

13     of that paragraph, didn't you in your own report?

14             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the Prosecutor please specify

15     in which part of his report.

16             MS. KORNER:  Paragraph 46.  No, let's not go there.  I don't want

17     to change documents.  It takes too long.  Thank you.  We'll come to it.

18     I assure you we'll come it.

19        Q.   Did you that was an accurate description of what happened,

20     General?

21        A.   Ms. Korner, I have already said in which part I used this book.

22     I used it only to quote the date of the decision on the withdrawal of the

23     JNA from Bosnia-Herzegovina.

24        Q.   Yes, we'll come to this in a moment, or I suggest at least part

25     of that report, part of your report at paragraph 46 contains part of this

Page 23976

 1     paragraph in slightly different words, I agree.

 2             But I'm asking you now whether you believe that this description

 3     of what happened, namely, that barracks in towns where Muslims and Croats

 4     were the majority population were exposed to fierce and unprovoked

 5     attacks.  The Serb civilian option was exposed to the same acts?

 6             Do you believe that that is an accurate description of what

 7     happened?

 8        A.   Ms. Korner, I stand by the positions I put forward in my report.

 9     If you are actually -- if that's what you're getting at.

10        Q.   No, I'm asking you, please, General, whether, based on this book

11     which you think is academic and whatever - I don't remember your exact

12     words now - you accept that this description of what happened is an

13     accurate account of the events --

14             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Just one question:  Are you now

15     examining the witness as an expert, or are you trying to elicit

16     information he got personally?

17             MS. KORNER:  For the nth time, I would ask the Court --

18             JUDGE HALL:  Please continue, Ms. Korner.

19             MS. KORNER:  Thank you.

20        Q.   Right.  General, do you accept from your reading of this book and

21     which you used for the basis of definitely the cite about the 4th of May,

22     is an accurate account of what happened?

23        A.   I cannot confirm that because this was written by other people.

24     These are not my words.  I include an account of these events in my

25     report and I stand by it.

Page 23977

 1        Q.   Let's go to paragraph 46 and the quote that you use -- sorry,

 2     the, quote that you used it for, can we go to 52, please -- sorry, in the

 3     book.  Can we go to the next page in the book.  Sorry, it's page 109,

 4     page 52 of the translation.  Yep.

 5             There we see:  [As read] "the SFRY Presidency decision of the 4th

 6     of May for all JNA members ... to pull out -- to pull out of the

 7     territory of Bosnia and Herzegovina.  And no later than May 19th ... did

 8     not contribute to the conflicts stopping, nor did it ease them.  On the

 9     contrary, in the period of these JNA members pulling out, they were

10     exposed to treacherous and perfidious attacks in which serious losses

11     were inflicted on them."

12             And if we look at the footnote for that, it's all about

13     manipulation of the Muslim-Croat part of the Bosnia-Herzegovina

14     leadership concerning the extraction of cadets from the military high

15     school from Sarajevo.  And that's, again, unquoted.  So we don't know

16     where he got that from, or the author has got that from.

17             All right.  Can we now go, please, to paragraph 46 of your

18     present report.

19             You say:  "The role of the Yugoslav People's Army was to prevent

20     interethnic armed conflict."

21             I'll come back to that one later.

22             [As read] "Hostility towards the JNA gradually developed in

23     Bosnia and Herzegovina just as it had done in Slovenia and Croatia.  The

24     army, its members, and facilities were subject to provocations and

25     attacks.  The aim was to provoke the army into a combat engagement that

Page 23978

 1     would justify secession.  The Muslim and Croatian political leadership in

 2     Bosnia-Herzegovina conducted a propaganda campaign branding the JNA an

 3     aggressor and the Serbian Chetnik army ...," and so on and do forth.

 4             There is no footnote for these assertion.  Where did you get that

 5     from?

 6        A.   Ms. Korner, we received much information from our superior

 7     commands.  And, based on that, I briefed our personnel.  This information

 8     included these things and this also -- this is also in line with some of

 9     my personal experience from the war.  I told you that for a while I was

10     in charge of the press centre in Bihac, and that one of my tasks was to

11     gather any information published in the media, to edit that information

12     and forward it to the superior command.  That information included what I

13     wrote here.  This is all my personal experience and information I got

14     directly during the time when I served in the Yugoslav People's Army.

15             I also obtained information subsequently at conferences about the

16     experiences from previous wars.

17        Q.   Because, you see, you put into inverted commas, the words

18     "aggressor and Serbian Chetnik army."

19             Which seems to suggest that you're quoting something.  But you

20     say you're not quoting anything?

21        A.   That is correct.  I'm not quoting anything.

22        Q.   Isn't it, in fact, a slightly, as it were, less emotive rendering

23     of that particular paragraph that we looked at in that particular book?

24        A.   No.

25        Q.   All right.  Well, let's move very quickly through a couple of

Page 23979

 1     more footnotes.

 2             MS. KORNER:  Can we have a look, please, at footnote number 24, I

 3     believe it is, which is on page 19 of the English.  It refers to

 4     paragraph 58.

 5        Q.   Where you say:  "The organisation of the VRS was outlined after

 6     its formation."

 7             For organisation, you quote -- you footnote, rather, a book by

 8     Mr. Kosovac, which I think is the organisation of the -- in English, is

 9     "Elements of the Organisation of the Yugoslavia Army"; is that right?

10        A.   That's right.

11        Q.   Do we understand from that, that you meant the reader to

12     extrapolate that the organisation, therefore, the VRS, came from this

13     book?

14        A.   No, Ms. Korner.

15        Q.   Well, I'm sorry, why did you -- when you put the organisation of

16     the VRS and you footnote this book by Mr. Kosovac as your source for

17     this.  So if it's not meant to be the source for this, what is it meant

18     to be?

19        A.   It says specifically here in my report that the footnote comes

20     just after the word "organisation" and there is another footnote after

21     the abbreviation, the VRS.

22        Q.   Yes.  But we better take this in order.  I wasn't going to bother

23     about the second one because the second one has got nothing do, as we'll

24     see, with the VRS.

25             So organisation, you footnote Mr. Kosovac.  For the VRS --

Page 23980

 1             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Ms. Korner, the witness has asked for a break.

 2             MS. KORNER:  Oh, sorry, I hadn't noticed.

 3             THE WITNESS:  It's okay.

 4             MS. KORNER:

 5        Q.   General, if you'd like a break, say so straight away.  Are you

 6     sure you're all right?

 7             Let's have a look, please, can we have up on the screen, please,

 8     it's 96.  So 20237.

 9             This was Mr. -- Colonel, I beg pardon.  Colonel Kosovac, his

10     graduation thesis published in 1995:  "Basic organisation of the Yugoslav

11     Army."

12             So is he talking about the JNA or the VJ?  Well, we can see it's

13     the VJ, actually, if we go to the next --

14             Can we go to the -- your footnote says page 7, and it's the

15     second page in the English translation.

16             Well, can we have the second page - it may just be that's the

17     only part we put in - in B/C/S, please.  Yep.  Thank you.

18             What -- this gentleman, Colonel Kosovac, is showing in his

19     diagram is the organisation of the VJ.  Now can I say straight away that

20     I accept that all these armies were derived from the old JNA.  But why

21     did you footnote Mr. Kosovac's diagram of the VJ as opposed to anybody

22     who talked about the VRS?

23        A.   Ms. Korner, I selected this work because this particular officer

24     dealt with issues of organisation throughout his professional career.  He

25     was the most competent person in the former Yugoslav People's Army, and,

Page 23981

 1     then later on, in the Yugoslav army.

 2        Q.   Yes, I'm sorry, General, are you saying you had no document,

 3     book, or anything available to you that showed you that -- that the --

 4     the organisation of the VRS, which is what you're talking about in this

 5     paragraph, as opposed to the VJ?

 6             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] I object to this.  Because I think

 7     this is misleading the witness.

 8             The witness did not use this, and he answered the Prosecutor's

 9     question clearly, that he did not use it for the organisation of VRS but

10     for organisation in general.  Organisation as such.

11             So what Ms. Korner is suggesting that he said is incorrect.  This

12     footnote does not refer to the VRS, and he answered that clearly.  So

13     please do not mislead and confuse the witness.

14             MS. KORNER:  All right.

15        Q.   Let's go back one step.  This is taking a very long time for what

16     should be a very short point.

17             In that paragraph, are you talking about the organisation of the

18     VRS?  Paragraph 58.

19             MS. KORNER:  And let's go back to that.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is correct.  This

21     paragraph talks about the organisation of the VRS, but as for the first

22     notion, organisation, I wanted to refer to something that defines the

23     notion of organisation, and, therefore, I referred to this gentleman's

24     work.

25             MS. KORNER:

Page 23982

 1        Q.   That was my original question until I was interrupted again.

 2             Are you saying that there was no other textbook or document you

 3     could find to demonstrate the organisation of the VRS?

 4        A.   Ms. Korner, I just wanted to say what organisation as a term

 5     means.  I do not discuss the organisation of the VRS here, but, rather, I

 6     clarified that later on, in another section of my report.

 7        Q.   All right.  You see, because -- and let's look at the next

 8     footnote.  So back, please, to paragraph 58.  0031D2.  Because you said,

 9     a minute ago you told me that it was the second footnote that you put,

10     after the words "VRS."

11             Number 25.

12             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] No, that's not what the witness

13     said.  He said in later footnotes rather than in the next, that is to

14     say, following footnote.

15             Please stop misleading the witness.

16             MS. KORNER:  At page 52, line 17, or line 13.

17             [As read] "Q.  Well, I'm sorry.  Why did you, when you put the

18     organisation of the VRS, did you footnote this book by Mr. Kosovac as

19     your source for this.  If it is not meant to be your source, what is it

20     meant to be.

21             The General replied:  [As read] "It says specifically here in my

22     report that the footnote comes after the word organisation and there is

23     another footnote after the abbreviation, the VRS."

24             And that footnote, you footnote a gentleman called Mr. Wiatr, a

25     Pole, who gave a sociological definition of the army as a social

Page 23983

 1     institution, the army as an organisation, and so on and so forth.

 2             And, indeed, that is what the book is about and, in fact, you

 3     took that out of the introduction I think, or later on.  But that's not

 4     about the VRS, is it.  It is about general sociological implications of

 5     the army.

 6        A.   That is correct.

 7        Q.   Right.  Well, let's move to the next footnote, please, and I hope

 8     this is the last one that I'm going to ask you about.

 9             Could we look, please, at your footnote --

10             MS. KORNER:  Sorry, Your Honours, I'm just going to skip a couple

11     which I had done, but -- yeah.

12             Yes, could we look, please, at paragraph 93, footnote 43.

13        Q.   You say there that:

14             [As read] "Command is ... uninterrupted, unified and

15     interconnected process, and consists of the assignment of tasks by

16     command documents (orders, commands, directives and instructions."

17             Do we understand that the words in italics, "the assignment of

18     tasks by command documents (orders, commands, directives and

19     instructions)" is a direct quote?

20        A.   That's right.

21        Q.   All right.  It may be just us.  I'm sorry.  Yes.

22             MS. KORNER:  Could we have up, please - I do hope this is the

23     right book - page -- sorry.  Document 20234.

24        Q.   Is that the book?

25        A.   That's the book, Ms. Korner.

Page 23984

 1        Q.   Then can we go, first of all, in this book, please, to, in B/C/S,

 2     it's the third page, and in English, it's the fifth page.

 3             Can you, because you quote this page 145, and I hope that's what

 4     we've got up in -- no.

 5             MS. KORNER:  Can we go to the next page in B/C/S.

 6        Q.   Can you tell us where those words appear?  And we've got the

 7     wrong page in English, I think.  It should be headed: Military control.

 8             Can we go back a page.  Yep.

 9        A.   Ms. Korner, I am afraid that there may have been a technical

10     error in terms of the number of the page.  That is possible, as the title

11     here is "Military Control," and I discuss command here.  So I'm afraid

12     that perhaps I did not put the right page in my footnote with a reference

13     to the paragraph from which I took this.

14        Q.   All right.  Well, let look at --

15             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] It is an error, but it is an error

16     in the footnote so that ...

17             MS. KORNER:  Do you know [Overlapping speakers] ... I'm now

18     asking that Your Honours direct Mr. Krgovic to stop giving the witness

19     answers.

20             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] I wanted to tell you what the right

21     footnote was.

22             JUDGE HALL:  I thought he was being helpful, Ms. Korner.

23             MS. KORNER:  Your Honour, footnote --

24             JUDGE HALL:  On this occasion.

25             MS. KORNER:  Footnote 43 -- paragraph 93 is, with footnote 43, is

Page 23985

 1     headed "Mitar Kovac and Bozidar Forca," which is the name of the book.

 2     Page 145.  What -- what we have up there is page 145 of that book.  I

 3     accept entirely if the General says he made an error.

 4             Can we look, finally, and then we can move onto something else

 5     eventually at the -- I've now got no document up in front of me on the

 6     screen.  Thank you.

 7             In the same book, please, sorry.  We need to back to the report.

 8     Could we go back to the report for a moment, please.  Oh, no, let's stick

 9     to the book.

10             Can we go to page --

11             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise, but our LiveNote is

12     not functioning.

13             JUDGE HALL:  I am aware of that, Mr. Krgovic.  I assume it's in

14     the process of being repaired.

15             MS. KORNER:  Finally on this, can we look paragraph -- page --

16     this comes out of footnote 188 but I want to stick to the book so we

17     don't ... footnote 88.  Yes.

18        Q.   You've footnoted the book again at footnote 88, which is

19     paragraph 186.

20             MS. KORNER:  But can we go to page -- it's page 146, so it's the

21     following page in the book.  And it's the following page in English.

22             As we'll see in a moment, when we go back, you say -- you quote

23     from the book and it's a direct quote we'll see:  "The highest element of

24     military control or strategic control (direction of war) was a country's

25     president (king or emperor) ..."

Page 23986

 1             Correct?

 2        A.   That's correct.

 3        Q.   And this section of the book, if we just go back again, actually

 4     deals with the period from 1920 to 1945, doesn't it, of the history of

 5     the military?

 6        A.   No, Ms. Korner.  I think that it deals with the period up until

 7     the year 2000.

 8        Q.   Yes.  But this section of the book - can we go from -- from which

 9     this is taken.  Can we go to the third page in English.  I don't know

10     whether you've got the book with you.  And it's the second page in B/C/S,

11     talks about the military in the period from 1920 to 1945, which is

12     presumably why we get the words "(king or emperor)," in brackets.

13     Doesn't it?

14        A.   I agree with.

15        Q.   Right.  Now, can we have a look at your report, please, at

16     paragraph 186.

17        A.   In my report, Ms. Korner, I think I quoted it properly but it has

18     to do with a fact which did not change from one historical period to

19     another.  The highest element of military control was always the

20     president of the state.

21        Q.   If we look at paragraph 186, that's your quote.  You cut out the

22     words "king and emperor," didn't you, not surprisingly, in parentheses?

23        A.   Yes, Ms. Korner.  Because my emphasis was on the president of the

24     state.  Therefore, I allow that perhaps I should not have done this.  Or

25     that this was not the right thing with a view to the authors of this

Page 23987

 1     book.  But my intention was to emphasise the role of the president of the

 2     state.

 3        Q.   Well, then, I'm sorry, the real question that I want to ask you -

 4     and accepting that you cut out king or emperor and whether that's right

 5     or wrong - why you used a book that was talking about the military in

 6     1920 to 1945 as opposed to a specific book or document that referred to

 7     the VRS?  Because, again, you're talking about the VRS there.

 8        A.   Ms. Korner, I talk about the function of the president of the

 9     state as a general function here.  Therefore, I used a book which was the

10     most easily available to me.  I have it in my own files, and I'm telling

11     you that this has to do with the function of the president of the state.

12     That was what I wanted to clarify, whether it was with a view of the

13     Army of Republika Srpska or any other army.

14        Q.   All right.  Let's leave your footnotes.  Let's leave the

15     generalities of your report and look at the specific assertions that you

16     make in it.

17             Can we go to the introduction, please, of your report.

18             In paragraph 2, you make a number of assertions.  You say:

19             [As read] "At the beginning of the conflict, the armed forces" -

20     in which you do include the police, you say - "(the army, the police and

21     the Territorial Defence) of the state and/or the conflicting parties had

22     no formulated conceptual or doctrinal views on defence and armed

23     combat ...," et cetera.

24             On what do you base that assertion?  What is your source for that

25     assertion?

Page 23988

 1        A.   Well, I considered the fact that there was a lack of legal

 2     regulations, a lack of documents with concepts such as the strategy of

 3     defence of a country, and a lack of well-developed rules and regulations

 4     in the area of defence in that time-period.

 5        Q.   How do you know that the conflicting parties - I'll come back to

 6     that in a moment - had no formulated conceptual or doctrinal views on

 7     defence?

 8        A.   Well, I had at my disposal the Law on Defence.  I was familiar

 9     with the situation on the ground.  I talked to a number of my colleagues

10     from other armies, because, as the commander of the academy, I had an

11     opportunity to travel after the war.  I travelled to Macedonia, Croatia,

12     Slovenia, and Bosnia and Herzegovina.

13        Q.   Right.  So you're saying this is the result of your chats during,

14     as you said earlier, conferences and meetings with officers from other

15     armies; is that right?

16        A.   Ms. Korner, this isn't all I state, in terms of sources.  And

17     those weren't chats, but serious conversations.  They took place after

18     the war.  I have already mentioned numerous analyses and the experience

19     from the Military Academy with regard to previous wars.  All these were

20     synthesized into this conclusion by me, showing that, at the beginning of

21     the war, the laws and regulations from the former Yugoslavia were

22     applied.

23        Q.   Which analyses?  You don't specify what you're talking about.

24     Are you able to tell us which you relied on?  And the answer is yes or

25     no, please.

Page 23989

 1        A.   I have told you that these analyses were made in the framework of

 2     the Military Academy.  I was in charge of some, and directly involved in

 3     others contributing to the analyses.

 4        Q.   Are you able to give us the name of a -- any one analysis on

 5     which you relied for this section of your report?

 6        A.   These textbooks and materials exist somewhere in our army, but I

 7     didn't copy from those analyses, and that's why I do not cite them here,

 8     Ms. Korner.  Instead, I included the insight and experience that I came

 9     by personally.  We have seen here the Law on Defence which wasn't in

10     existence at the beginning in Bosnia-Herzegovina.

11        Q.   Right.  Have you ever made a study of the HVO?  Analysed the

12     workings of the HVO.

13        A.   That is a subject of research at the Military Academy, too.

14        Q.   Yes.  Have you, General, ever studied, analysed, the documents

15     relating to the HVO.

16        A.   Ms. Korner, I've told you that I took part in these analyses.

17     Every participant gets an assignment.  One is to analyse the HVO, another

18     the Slovenian army, yet another the BH army, and so on.  And these are

19     the things that were analysed.  I was involved, but I personally did not

20     research the functioning of the HVO.

21        Q.   All right.  Did you personally research the functioning of the

22     ABiH?

23        A.   Ms. Korner, I have stated that these army did not have proper

24     rules and regulations, and I still stand by that assertion.

25        Q.   No, please answer the question.  And I don't know -- Mr. Krgovic

Page 23990

 1     obviously told you you had to called me Ms. Korner every time you answer.

 2     You don't.

 3             Can you just tell me, please, did you personally research the

 4     functioning of the ABiH?

 5        A.   Ms. Korner, I apologise if -- for mentioning your name.

 6             I was in the position to see numerous documents of the BH army,

 7     and the notion of research is very broad.  It's a serious business.  And

 8     I can only repeat that I stand by my assertions.

 9        Q.   All right.  Let's move on.

10             It's right, isn't it, that the JNA was not a standing army?  In

11     other words, it had a small professional group of officers which were

12     reinforced, if necessary, by the -- the -- the TO?

13        A.   Ms. Korner, the Yugoslav People's Army is an institution.  It's a

14     whole, whereas the Territorial Defence is another institution, a

15     different whole.  These two institutions together made up the armed

16     forces of the former Yugoslavia.  The JNA had a foundation of

17     professionals, and there were also conscripts serving their compulsory

18     military service.  Young men from the age of 18 till 27.  The duration of

19     their military service varied.

20             The Territorial Defence consisted exclusively of the reserve

21     forces, including reserve officers.  Those were people who, upon

22     completion of their military service, are transferred to the reserve

23     force.

24        Q.   All right.  Is the answer to my question that there was no

25     standing army, as, for example, as you studied all the other armies in

Page 23991

 1     the world, the British Army, or the American Army?  It was not a standing

 2     army?

 3        A.   I don't know what you mean when you say "standing army."

 4             It was a regular army.  The only regular army in the

 5     then-Yugoslavia.  I told you of what it consisted, and it was deployed

 6     throughout the territory of Yugoslavia, based on organisational --

 7        Q.   [Previous translation continued] ... All right, all right, all

 8     right.  Yes.

 9        A.   -- decisions and enactments.

10        Q.   Thank you very much.  Because the reason I'm asking you that is

11     because, let's go to the next part of this paragraph, where you say:  "In

12     conditions of war and armed combat, these documents were applied to the

13     military and police forces, which consisted of mobilised people (only 3

14     per cent were professionals) ..."

15             Where did you get that figure from?

16        A.   I believe I took that figure from an analysis of the combat

17     readiness of the VRS, if I remember correctly.  But I'm familiar with

18     that fact, that most of the force was actually the reserve force in the

19     army then.

20        Q.   No.  You say specifically:  "... (only 3 per cent ...)"

21             So I will ask you to look at the analysis of combat readiness,

22     which is P1781, tab 82.

23             And can we have up, please, in English page 79, and in B/C/S,

24     page 71, I believe.

25             And let's just concentrate on the 1st Krajina Corps, because

Page 23992

 1     that's what your report was supposed to be concentrating on, isn't it,

 2     General?

 3        A.   No, Ms. Korner.

 4        Q.   All right.  We'll come to the bit that seems to suggest it is.

 5             Let's look at the 1st Krajina Corps.

 6             [As read] "Of the 4.054 officer establishment posts, 2.373 or 59

 7     per cent are filled with officers of whom 398 or 17 per cent are active

 8     officers and of the 2.949 non-commissioned officer establishment posts or

 9     4.000 or 154 non-commissioned officers," in fact, over, "of whom 217 or

10     5 per cent are active non-commissioned officers?"

11             Is this a document you had before, before you wrote your report?

12     Let's just check your bibliography.  Because I'll invite you, General, to

13     tell me where you see anything like the 3 per cent figure.

14        A.   Ms. Korner, I would have to read the entire analysis now to find

15     that bit of information.

16             But I would like to point out the following.  One corps is not a

17     reliable measure because that corps was certainly the best manned.

18     Furthermore, this is about manning, and I spoke about something else;

19     namely, that, of the overall force of the VRS, only 3 per cent were

20     professionals.

21        Q.   I tell you what, you can have this -- because we're going to

22     adjourn quite soon.  You can take it with you.  I'm perfectly happy to go

23     through all the other corps, or for you to go through all the other corps

24     as listed, and tell us anywhere where you see that figure of 3 per cent.

25             You -- you go on to say in -- let's go back to your report.  I'll

Page 23993

 1     invite you to take that document back with you.  We'll give you a copy,

 2     or I'm sure Mr. Krgovic can provide you with a copy.

 3             MR. KRGOVIC:  I'm not sure is it translation issue, but what

 4     Ms. Korner quoted is percentage of total numbers of officer in the corps.

 5     It's quite different from what is said in this document.

 6             [Interpretation] This is about the manning of establishment

 7     posts.  Which means officers.

 8             MS. KORNER:  [Previous translation continued] ... It doesn't

 9     actually, with the greatest -- oh, you mean his report does.

10             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] No, this here.

11             MS. KORNER:  [Overlapping speakers]...  please.  This report I

12     have just read out:  59 per cent are filled with officers, of whom 39 are

13     active officers, non-commissioned officers.

14        Q.   Now, in any event, in order to prevent this sort of argument,

15     because this is not footnoted again, General, you take away this report

16     with you.  Mr. Krgovic will give you a copy of the B/C/S.  And you can

17     have a look and tell us where you got that 3 per cent figure from.

18             Now, let's go on.  You say:  "Who had a very low level of

19     discipline."

20             Again, unfootnoted.  Where do you get that assertion from?

21        A.   I believe this information can also be found in the analysis of

22     the combat readiness of the VRS.

23        Q.   Why didn't you footnote this at the time?

24        A.   I do not remember why I didn't.  I think this is a qualification

25     or a fact that was around at the time.  Because I personally was in a

Page 23994

 1     position to witness the very outset of combat activities and the madness

 2     of the war which was characterised by lack of discipline.

 3        Q.   General, you told us, whenever it was, that you left Bosnia on

 4     the 10th of May, before the formation of the VRS.  You witnessed nothing

 5     of combat activities of the VRS, did you?

 6        A.   I wasn't an eye-witness, but I knew what the situation in the VRS

 7     was from many reports and conversations with individuals.

 8        Q.   You did not read - we went through that; I think it was last

 9     Friday - or see any of the VRS combat reports or any of that at the

10     period, did you?  Or, indeed, even now, until you came here.

11        A.   Ms. Korner, I really cannot remember what I stated on Friday with

12     regard to that.  But I know that I found this information in the analysis

13     of combat readiness, and I stand by it.

14        Q.   "Untrained and inexperienced commanding officers."

15             Where did you find that?

16        A.   Ms. Korner, I know of the practice that prevailed in the early

17     days of the war that reserve officers were appointed to some positions

18     because of the shortage of active-duty officers.  And, finally, none of

19     the active-duty officers were really trained for such a war because the

20     entire training of the former army was -- or, rather, focussed on

21     combatting an external enemy rather than an internal enemy or civil war.

22        Q.   We're talking about the VRS now.  Nothing else.  Were you aware

23     that General Talic and most of his corps command had served in combat

24     operations in 1991, in Croatia?

25        A.   Ms. Korner, I know that they took part in combat operations.  But

Page 23995

 1     I'm saying that participation in a war is not illegal.  It's something

 2     that's allowed.

 3        Q.   No, no.  You've told us -- I'm sorry, you told us.  You said in

 4     your report that they were untrained and inexperienced officers.  I'll

 5     come to other officers later.  But General Talic and those in his command

 6     were experienced JNA officers, weren't they?

 7        A.   I personally know that I was not trained, and I am saying that

 8     most officers and soldiers were not trained for this type of war.

 9     Because this wasn't included in the training programme.

10             You cannot say that you have significant combat experience if you

11     fought for a couple of days.

12        Q.   But, look, I'm so sorry.  You are saying these were untrained and

13     inexperienced commanding officers.  What I'm putting to you is, that not

14     only were General Talic and his corps command all ex-JNA officers, but

15     all highly experienced officers who had additionally served in combat in

16     Western Slavonia during the course of 1991.

17             Do you accept that?

18        A.   Ms. Korner, in my report, I gave a general qualification by which

19     I still stand.  Even today, I say that most of the personnel at the time

20     was inexperienced and insufficiently trained for the war.

21        Q.   But how do you know, General?  You simply don't.  You weren't

22     there.  You're wrong, are you, in what you say about, certainly, the

23     1ST Krajina Corps?  Positively wrong.

24        A.   Ms. Korner, I'm not wrong.  I am an experienced officer with the

25     highest military rank.  I know for sure that if they had all been well

Page 23996

 1     trained, that there wouldn't have been so many problems and so many cases

 2     of violation of the international law of war.

 3        Q.   All right.  I'll come back to that in a minute.

 4             Can I just ask you this -- I'll come back to that tomorrow.

 5             Do you know Colonel Arsic of the 33rd Motorised Brigade?

 6        A.   I don't know him personally.  I don't remember.

 7        Q.   So you don't know that he was, again, an experienced JNA officer,

 8     who had also served in Croatia?

 9        A.   Well, I don't know the man, so I cannot speak about him.

10        Q.   What about Lieutenant-Colonel Peulic, in charge of OG Vlasic, of

11     the 122nd Light Infantry Brigade.  We looked at some of his documents.

12     Did you know him?  Or of him?

13        A.   Ms. Korner, by way of introduction in this paragraph, I stated

14     some general characteristics of the situation on the ground at the time.

15     I did so in order to arrive at specific suggestions as to how the use of

16     the police in combat activities should be viewed.  It is difficult for me

17     to comment on the training level of any specific individuals.  I was

18     speaking in general terms about the situation in the army at the time.

19        Q.   Did you know about Colonel - as he then was - Galic?

20             JUDGE HALL:  Ms. Korner, it's past.

21             MS. KORNER:  Your Honour, may I -- I'd like to finish this topic,

22     but -- all right.

23             JUDGE HALL:  Yes.

24             So we take the adjournment, and I believe we're in Courtroom II

25     tomorrow morning.

Page 23997

 1             MS. KORNER:  Right.  Your Honours.  We've got a copy in case

 2     Mr. Krgovic didn't have, of the -- well, anyhow, he can have it now.

 3             JUDGE HALL:  So the usher can pass it to him.

 4             MS. KORNER:  No, no, it's for the witness.  Sorry.

 5                           [The witness stands down]

 6                            --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.47 p.m.,

 7                           to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 13th day of

 8                           September, 2011, at 9.00 a.m.