Page 23927
1 Monday, 12 September 2011
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.06 a.m.
5 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours.
6 This is case IT-08-91-T, the Prosecutor versus Mico Stanisic and
7 Stojan Zupljanin.
8 JUDGE HALL: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
9 Good morning to everyone. May we take the appearances today,
10 please.
11 MS. KORNER: Sorry. Good morning, Your Honours. Joanna Korner
12 and Crispian Smith for the Prosecution.
13 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. For
14 the Stanisic Defence, Slobodan Cvijetic and Ms. Deirdre Montgomery.
15 MR. KRGOVIC: Good morning, Your Honours. Dragan Krgovic and
16 Miroslav Cuskic, appearing for Zupljanin Defence.
17 JUDGE HALL: Thank you.
18 [The witness takes the stand]
19 JUDGE HALL: Yes, Ms. Korner.
20 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, before the General starts, I was given
21 certain information by Mr. Krgovic about something that happened over the
22 weekend. And Your Honours have been told, have you?
23 JUDGE HALL: We've been enlightened, yes.
24 MS. KORNER: It's been raised, has it? Okay, thank you very
25 much.
Page 23928
1 [Trial Chamber confers]
2 JUDGE HALL: Yes, Mr. Krgovic.
3 MR. KRGOVIC: Can we go to the private session for this purpose,
4 Your Honour.
5 JUDGE HALL: Yes, we go into private session.
6 [Private session]
7 (redacted)
8 (redacted)
9 (redacted)
10 (redacted)
11 (redacted)
12 (redacted)
13 (redacted)
14 (redacted)
15 (redacted)
16 (redacted)
17 (redacted)
18 (redacted)
19 (redacted)
20 (redacted)
21 (redacted)
22 (redacted)
23 (redacted)
24 (redacted)
25 (redacted)
Page 23929
1 (redacted)
2 (redacted)
3 (redacted)
4 [Open session]
5 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, I'm sorry to interrupt and I would
6 thought it would have been better to discuss it in the absence of the
7 General. I'm a little concerned - because I have a lot of questions for
8 the General and in some detail - whether he feels fit enough. We
9 won't -- we weren't told anything about this by VWS, nor do we know what
10 the medical prognosis was. And obviously I don't want it to be thought
11 at any stage that I'm taking an unfair advantage of the General ...
12 [Trial Chamber and Legal Officer confer]
13 JUDGE HALL: Please continue, Ms. Korner.
14 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, for the record, we're in open
15 session.
16 JUDGE HALL: Oh. Can we go back into private session.
17 [Private session]
18 (redacted)
19 (redacted)
20 (redacted)
21 (redacted)
22 (redacted)
23 (redacted)
24 (redacted)
25 (redacted)
Page 23930
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2 (redacted)
3 (redacted)
4 (redacted)
5 (redacted)
6 (redacted)
7 (redacted)
8 (redacted)
9 (redacted)
10 (redacted)
11 (redacted)
12 [Open session]
13 THE REGISTRAR: We're back in open session, Your Honours.
14 JUDGE HALL: Yes. We rise, to resume at 9.30.
15 [The witness stands down]
16 --- Break taken at 9.13 a.m.
17 --- On resuming at 9.34 a.m.
18 JUDGE HALL: The witness may be escorted back in. And we could
19 go into private session.
20 [Private session]
21 (redacted)
22 (redacted)
23 (redacted)
24 (redacted)
25 (redacted)
Page 23931
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2 (redacted)
3 (redacted)
4 (redacted)
5 (redacted)
6 (redacted)
7 (redacted)
8 (redacted)
9 (redacted)
10 (redacted)
11 (redacted)
12 (redacted)
13 (redacted)
14 [Open session]
15 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
16 WITNESS: VIDOSAV KOVACEVIC [Resumed]
17 [Witness answered through interpreter]
18 Cross-examination by Ms. Korner: [Continued]
19 Q. General, last thing on Friday, you took with you the reports done
20 by Mr. Brown, Dr. Nielsen, and Richard Butler, the last you'd read for
21 your previous report. All I want to ask you about that is this: Do you
22 agree that, having re-read Mr. Butler's report, it deals with the VRS in
23 terms of what happened at Srebrenica?
24 A. Ms. Korner, as far as I remember, Mr. Butler's report that I
25 mentioned, first and foremost, deals with the command responsibility of
Page 23932
1 the corps command.
2 Q. Yes. At the time, 1995, of Srebrenica.
3 A. I think that Mr. Butler dealt with 1992, with the command, and
4 the prerogatives of the command of the corps, as far as I remember.
5 Q. I accept that he dealt with the overall, if you like, philosophy
6 of command and control, within the VRS, and certainly at the period.
7 But, largely, dealing with it in the light of the events at Srebrenica.
8 Do you agree with that?
9 A. Madam, I dealt with 1992 in my report, not with 1995.
10 Q. Well, let's see if you will accept this.
11 It's right - isn't it? - that he doesn't look at anything to do
12 with the relationship between the VRS and the RS MUP.
13 A. If I remember correctly, Mr. Butler did not analyse these
14 relationships.
15 Q. The second matter I want to just ask you about in respect of your
16 evidence last Friday is this: Is it right that you left Croatia and
17 moved to Bihac in November of 1991?
18 A. That is correct, Ms. Korner.
19 Q. All right.
20 A. Or, to be more precise, in late November. I think it was the
21 28th or the 29th of November. But it's been a long time.
22 Q. Right. And have you personally ever commanded a -- a group of
23 soldiers that included resubordinated police?
24 A. I understand your question, Ms. Korner. But I must say that the
25 topic I dealt with, and that is the use of the police in combat
Page 23933
1 activities and its resubordination, as well as the command relationship
2 that comes into being then, does not require me to have done anything
3 like it personally. That matter is regulated by military rules and
4 regulations which I had the opportunity to get acquainted with during my
5 military career. That matter seemed to be the principal problem, to me.
6 And I wanted to assist you and the Trial Chamber by explaining this
7 matter through the rules and regulations.
8 Q. Yes. I take it from that, that your answer to the actual
9 question I asked, which is: Had you ever personally commanded a group of
10 soldiers in combat, which included resubordinated police, is no?
11 A. That is correct. If you insist on getting an answer.
12 Q. I'm afraid it is important because at a later stage your evidence
13 is going to be read.
14 And, therefore, as you say, your evidence about this is based on
15 your study of military laws, regulations, and some documents?
16 A. That is correct, Ms. Korner.
17 Q. All right. Now, can we please look, first of all, at some of the
18 differences between the report you wrote for this case and the report you
19 did for the Popovic case, on the same topics.
20 This is no criticism, General. It's right, isn't it, you used
21 the Popovic report, the report you wrote for General Gvero, as a starting
22 point, if nothing else, for this present report?
23 A. It is correct that I used parts of my earlier report. But since
24 we're talking about two reports, I must point out the fact that they deal
25 with two completely different topics.
Page 23934
1 Q. Well, they don't, in fact, entirely, do they, because the bulk of
2 your report in both cases was concerned with command and control issues
3 as laid down in the regulations of the Socialist Federal Republic of
4 Yugoslavia; isn't that right?
5 A. In order to explain the subject matter I researched, I had to
6 adhere to the methodology that relies on using some general concepts and
7 the theory, and that is why I also went into command relationships and
8 organisational matters.
9 Q. Yes. All right. Can we look -- and this is going to be a bit
10 difficulty because it would be preferable if we had had the English up in
11 both versions. You, I think, have got your -- your own copy. But it
12 means that neither of the accused would have it in their own language.
13 But it is easier to see if we see if we look in both the English
14 versions.
15 MS. KORNER: So, Your Honours, I'm in the hands of the Defence of
16 this. We can provide, if they haven't already provided their respective
17 clients with hard copy, we probably can get hard copy of the B/C/S
18 report. But, otherwise, it means we're going to have the B/C/S and the
19 English up and then the B/C/S and the English up in the earlier report
20 and it's more difficult to identify. So I'm in the hands of Mr. Krgovic,
21 in particular, as to whether he is happy with that.
22 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, as far as the Defence
23 is concerned, we have no problem with it. But it -- maybe it would be
24 good if the clients could have both copies at their disposal. Perhaps we
25 should try and procure some as soon as possible.
Page 23935
1 [Prosecution counsel confer]
2 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, one of the suggestions I have is that,
3 helpfully, of Mr. Smith is that we can have the two English versions up
4 on e-court and on Sanction, the B/C/S version will come up, we hope.
5 Q. So can we start, please, General, could you turn -- oh, sorry.
6 May as well let the General -- you've got your report with you, I
7 believe, General?
8 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
9 A. [No interpretation]
10 JUDGE HALL: Sorry, Ms. Korner, we are advised that that
11 suggestion wouldn't work because on Sanction the Court Officer then loses
12 control.
13 MS. KORNER: Well, let's -- first of all, please, can we start
14 then and we'll see how it goes. Let's have the B/C/S and the English.
15 The English report is 0031 -- sorry, the present report is 0031D2, and
16 the Popovic report, which is at tab 100 of our bundle, is 20232.
17 So can we start with page five in each report; first of all, the
18 English. Unfortunately, there are no paragraphs, or the paragraphs don't
19 equate in the Popovic report.
20 Q. Now, under -- in this -- your present report, paragraph 14 you
21 talk about the armed conflict in Bosnia and Herzegovina. The parties to
22 the conflict were the Army of the Republic of Bosnia, the Croatian
23 Defence Council, and the Army of the RS. "Each with their own
24 paramilitary and parapolice forces." Do you see that in paragraph 14.
25 A. Yes, Ms. Korner.
Page 23936
1 Q. Now, can we have up, please, the same page in the Popovic report,
2 page 5.
3 MS. KORNER: Five, in the Popovic report. Not six. Oh, yes, is
4 that -- no, that's -- 5 is right in English, but I don't think it's the
5 same page in B/C/S. Got page 6 up there.
6 Page 5 in B/C/S as well. I'll say it again: Page 5. No -- oh,
7 I see. All right. I see, okay. One page back apparently in e-court.
8 Thank you.
9 Q. Do you see there, it's paragraph 2, which is almost identical,
10 just slight change of wording, and it may be translation, but you say
11 there:
12 [As read] "The Army of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina,
13 Croatian Defence Council on one side, the Army of Republika Srpska on the
14 other were at war. Paramilitary forces took part on both sides."
15 You don't mention or you didn't mention in the Popovic report
16 parapolice. Why was that? Why did you introduce the word "parapolice"
17 into this report?
18 A. Ms. Korner, both reports were authored by me. And you will allow
19 for the right of the author to change some parts or re-use them as a
20 whole if I wrote them.
21 Q. Yes. I -- I quite understand. Of course, you have the right to
22 do that. I'm simply asking why you introduced the word "parapolice" when
23 you wrote this report?
24 A. I suppose it's because the second report has more to do with the
25 police, as we all know. And that was probably the reason why I
Page 23937
1 introduced the term.
2 Q. Yes. But you're giving a general, as it were, overview in both
3 reports, and you're saying, These are the combatants on either side of
4 the divide, as it were, and they don't change, do they, simply because
5 the police is about the police in this case, but not about the police in
6 General Gvero?
7 A. Yes, Ms. Korner. But in the trial, because of which I'm here
8 now, the focus is on 1992, in which year, as we have seen, only about
9 halfway through the year, the defence system in the Army of
10 Republika Srpska was -- was made legal.
11 Q. I'm sorry, General. What you were talking about in both
12 paragraphs in both reports was the forces in 1992 when the conflict broke
13 out.
14 So why did you mention parapolice in this report and not in the
15 last report?
16 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, for one thing, these
17 are three questions, merged into one. And, secondly, if Ms. Korner wants
18 to quote the paragraph, she should also point out that in the Gvero
19 report, the period is from 1992 through 1995; whereas, this here deals
20 only with 1992. So it is not the same period referred to.
21 MS. KORNER: I agree. It's -- but it starts in 1992. But this
22 is a small point and I'm going to ask just one other question.
23 Q. General, what on -- sorry. What do you mean by "parapolice"?
24 You see, you were asked that at page 23647, and you explained -- well,
25 you didn't explain, I suggest -- I'm sorry, 23645, and all you said was:
Page 23938
1 [As read] "All these newly formed forces" - and this is 23646 -
2 "were accompanied by a number of different paramilitary and parapolice
3 forces?"
4 So please tell us what do you call a parapolice force as opposed
5 to a paramilitary force?
6 A. Ms. Korner, from the start of the armed conflict, armed conflicts
7 in the former Yugoslavia, from Slovenia, through Croatia, to
8 Bosnia-Herzegovina, I had personal experience with parapolice forces
9 because I met them. When the conflicts broke out, the practice in those
10 republics was that there were regular police forces of the Ministry of
11 the Interior, but, in parallel, some individuals put on uniforms, set up
12 check-points of their own accord, and stopped JNA members. For example,
13 in Croatia, there was the regular MUP and besides, there were parapolice
14 forces that we colloquially called Zengas and they were not controlled by
15 the MUP, or at least as far as I know.
16 Q. But, are you simply saying that armed men wearing uniform, and by
17 that I take it you mean camouflage, who were setting up check-points
18 you're calling parapolice?
19 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] I think this is not a correct
20 interpretation of what this witness said, because if Ms. Korner wants to
21 quote the witness she has to quote everything that he said, not to pick
22 out one characteristic of the forces that the witness is talking about.
23 MS. KORNER: Yes. I am picking out what he has just said: "Some
24 individuals put on uniforms, set up check-points of their own accord and
25 stopped JNA members."
Page 23939
1 MR. KRGOVIC: And they're out of control and command of regular
2 MUP.
3 JUDGE HALL: Don't -- don't give evidence, Mr. Krgovic. But I
4 don't know to what extent, as Ms. Korner has indicated, we're dealing
5 with a translation problem, but I, too, am curious about what the witness
6 means, and I would invite her to head down the path she is headed.
7 MS. KORNER: Thank you, Your Honour.
8 Q. Right, General, are you calling parapolice armed men in
9 camouflage uniform who set up check-points and stopped the JNA?
10 A. Ms. Korner, once the armed conflicts broke out --
11 Q. [Previous translation continued] ...
12 A. -- and all the way to --
13 Q. I'm sorry, I'm going to stop you. Because unless you answer my
14 questions directly we will be here for a lot, lot longer.
15 Now, please, answer the question directly: Are you calling
16 parapolice forces men in camouflage uniform, armed men, who set up
17 check-points and stopped the JNA?
18 A. The Yugoslav People's Army was the only regular force. That's
19 what I wanted to say. Anyone else was not under its control or under the
20 control of the Territorial Defence units was paramilitary. If it was not
21 under the control of the Ministry of Interior, then we're talking about
22 parapolice forces.
23 And as for specific check-points, I would need to know which
24 check-point is -- that we're talking about, who set it up, whether there
25 was anyone commanding it, and so on and so forth.
Page 23940
1 Q. That's the whole point, isn't it, General? These were armed men,
2 under allegedly nobody's control, and the generic term, as you used in
3 the Popovic case, is "paramilitary," isn't it?
4 A. That's correct.
5 Q. And I'm asking you, to go back to my original point and let me
6 put it to you directly: Did you end the word "parapolice" in order to
7 assist the Defence of Mr. Zupljanin and for no other reason?
8 A. No.
9 Q. All right. Let me turn to the next part of your report where
10 there are differences.
11 MS. KORNER: Can we go, please, to paragraph 43 in the Popovic --
12 sorry, in the present report, which is -- I think it's the same page,
13 page 16 in English. And in B/C/S, it should be page 6 still. So that
14 would be -- it's backwards, it's page 5.
15 First of all, let's have a look at the present report.
16 JUDGE HARHOFF: Ms. Korner.
17 MS. KORNER: Yes.
18 JUDGE HARHOFF: Before we move onto something else, I apologise
19 for not having picked up the points that you tried to elicit from the
20 General.
21 But, General, forgive me, I still quite have not understood why
22 you would call these men parapolice rather than paramilitary or something
23 else. They -- the reason I'm asking is that, on the face of it, these
24 men to whom you referred in your earlier report, would seem to belong to
25 the groups that we have referred to throughout this trial as paramilitary
Page 23941
1 forces.
2 So is there any particular reason why you would link them up with
3 the police by calling them "parapolice forces"?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, there were some
5 instances, and I told you that I have come across them, in which
6 policemen would leave their public security stations with their official
7 IDs and use the authority to stop people, maltreat them, but did not take
8 part in specific military operations. They were discharging police
9 duties, but they were not under the control of the regular Ministry of
10 Interior.
11 JUDGE HARHOFF: Were they dressed in police uniforms?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There were various uniforms.
13 Everyone fetched for himself. They would wear what they could find at
14 home or what they had with them at the moment when they left their
15 stations.
16 JUDGE HARHOFF: I see. Thank you.
17 Please proceed, Ms. Korner.
18 MS. KORNER:
19 Q. [Microphone not activated] I'm sorry, you say: There were some
20 instances, you came across them, [As read] "in which policemen would
21 leave their public security station with their official IDs and use the
22 authority to stop people, maltreat them, but did not take part in
23 specific military operations."
24 How did come across them?
25 A. While leaving the commands for the units, I sometimes came across
Page 23942
1 those barricades and check-points in the Republic of Croatia.
2 Q. Well, I'm sorry. How do you know that the people at the
3 check-points had left their public security stations with their IDs, as
4 opposed to getting false IDs?
5 A. I'm familiar with that fact.
6 Q. Well, I think we've dealt with that.
7 If this was something you knew of your own experience, and you've
8 explained that part of your report is from your own experience, why did
9 you not put it into the Popovic report?
10 A. Ms. Korner, the report which I wrote for the Stanisic and
11 Zupljanin case included mention of these forces because here, in this
12 case, we are dealing with the use of police units in combat operations.
13 Therefore, I wanted to acquaint this Tribunal with the fact that there
14 were also parapolice forces present at the time. Though this is
15 something that is well known.
16 Q. Are you able to name any of these so-called parapolice forces?
17 In other words, like the Wolves of Vucak, or anything like that?
18 A. I agree with you that it is very difficult, and it was very
19 difficult in practice, to distinguish between paramilitary and parapolice
20 forces. Only in instances when they participated in some combat
21 operations, I would call them paramilitaries. If they stopped people and
22 showed their official IDs, then they acted as parapolice. I know from
23 documents which I have come across that, on the ground, there were, if I
24 remember well, more than 50 paramilitary and such parapolice formations
25 during the war.
Page 23943
1 Q. Are you able to tell us what documents?
2 A. I do not know the exact number of the document. But I think that
3 this is an report, perhaps from the Main Staff or from the corps command,
4 concerning the existence of these formations, with their names, and the
5 acts they committed.
6 Q. [Previous translation continued] ... Yes.
7 A. You mentioned one of them.
8 Q. [Previous translation continued] ... Yes, you're talking, I take
9 it, about General Tolimir -- Colonel Tolimir, as he then was, report on
10 paramilitary formations; is that right?
11 A. Yes, I think it was that report.
12 Q. Which you were shown by either Mr. Krgovic, or Mr. Cvijetic - and
13 I can't remember which - when you came here.
14 A. Yes, I think so. Or perhaps I found that in the footnotes of
15 Mr. Brown's report.
16 Q. Right. But you hadn't read it -- well, firstly, were you aware
17 of the existence of Colonel Tolimir's report before you wrote this
18 present report?
19 A. I think so, yes.
20 Q. How?
21 JUDGE DELVOIE: Ms. Korner, before we continue with this list,
22 there's still something that is not really clear to me.
23 General, you -- you -- you said in answering a question,
24 Ms. Korner's question: "... policemen would leave their public security
25 station with their official IDs and use the authority to stop people,
Page 23944
1 maltreat them, but did not take part in specific military operations."
2 Then you continue: "They were discharging police duties, but
3 they were not under the control of the regular Ministry of Interior."
4 And then - and I have to find that part - you add:
5 [As read] "On the distinction between paramilitary and
6 parapolice, I would call them paramilitary if they stopped -- I would
7 call them paramilitary," no, sorry. "If they stopped people and showed
8 their official IDs then they acted as parapolice."
9 Do I take it that you mean regular police officers leaving
10 their -- their -- their police building with their IDs, discharging
11 police duties but not under the control of the Ministry of Interior when
12 then they stop people showing their official document, they were
13 parapolice?
14 Is that what you mean?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Precisely so. And I emphasised,
16 whoever was not under the control of the regular, that is to say, the
17 state-controlled forces. They were then either paramilitaries or the
18 parapolice.
19 JUDGE DELVOIE: And what makes you conclude that a regular police
20 officer that goes into the street and stops people is not under the
21 control of the Ministry of Interior?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I emphasised: If
23 they were not.
24 That is to say, if they were doing that without permission or
25 without the authorisation of the authorised superior.
Page 23945
1 JUDGE DELVOIE: So, in your opinion, that turns them into
2 parapolice?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's right.
4 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
5 Please proceed, Ms. Korner.
6 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, it's easier actually if we can do it
7 this way. We've got hard copies for both accused of the B/C/S version of
8 the report. And if we -- those could be handed -- or, the two reports,
9 rather, the one from this case and the one from Popovic. It makes it
10 easier then, if we can have the English up on the screen without the
11 B/C/S. I'll give the B/C/S references. And also for the witness, if he
12 needs it. But I think he has got copies of both his reports.
13 So could we have up on the screen, please, only in English, page
14 16 of the English report, paragraph, starting: "Formation organisation
15 and tasks ..."
16 And in the Popovic report it will be page 5 in e-court. I want
17 the Popovic -- I don't want two English versions of this report. I want
18 the Popovic report, please. Thank you. No, it's the next -- it's the
19 next page, please. It's page 6.
20 Q. Now, very small point, and I don't want to labour it --
21 A. [In English] Sorry, sorry --
22 Q. And in B/C/S could you go to your own reports, please, at
23 paragraph 43 of this report, and it's page ... page 6 of your Popovic
24 report. Now it's a small point, on paragraph 43 of this report, you
25 said: "The war in the former Yugoslav Socialist Republic of Bosnia and
Page 23946
1 Herzegovina was the result of" --
2 JUDGE HALL: Ms. Korner, the witness was trying to signal
3 something.
4 MS. KORNER: No, I think he was signalling all he has got on the
5 screen is English. But I've given him -- he has his own reports in his
6 own language.
7 JUDGE HALL: Yes, that's what I thought.
8 MR. KRGOVIC: [Microphone not activated] ... paragraph in B/C/S
9 which you're reading in the English. So can we have one, maybe, copy for
10 the witness in B/C/S because I think one more is left. Ah, sorry.
11 Please.
12 MS. KORNER: All right. Well, Your Honours, I was going to try
13 to save time but, in fact, it's just lengthening matters.
14 Could we have, please, page 16, paragraph 43, in English of the
15 present report. And I don't know -- and in B/C/S, the same paragraph.
16 Same page.
17 It's paragraph -- it's the same -- I want the same paragraph in
18 B/C/S, 43.
19 Right. Yes. No. It should be 3. Paragraph 43 in B/C/S. And
20 paragraph 43 in English. In the report in this case, please. Which is
21 31D2.
22 Q. Right. In paragraph 43 in this report you talk about the war was
23 the result of a lack of either will or ability of political leaderships.
24 In paragraph 45, you say: [As read] "It was obvious that the
25 Muslim-Croatian part of the Bosnia-Herzegovina leadership wanted to
Page 23947
1 declare independence of Bosnia and Herzegovina without the agreements
2 [sic] of the representatives of the Serbian people."
3 MS. KORNER: And can we go, please, to the next page in each to
4 look at paragraph 49.
5 Q. You say: {As read] "Territorial Defence units and/or staffs in
6 the municipalities" blah, blah, "paramilitary formations were
7 incorporated into all regular armed formations with different degrees of
8 resubordination."
9 And let's emphasise the word "resubordination" there.
10 MS. KORNER: Now can we go, please, to the same part of your
11 report in Popovic. It is page 6 in English. Sorry, that was a --
12 Page what? No. Sorry.
13 Yes, page 6 in B/C/S. Sorry, it does.
14 No, sorry. It's --
15 JUDGE HALL: Ms. Korner, not -- notwithstanding the break we had
16 this morning, in order to keep to the regular times of sittings, perhaps
17 we could take the break now and these problems can be sorted out when we
18 come back and you continue.
19 MS. KORNER: Yes, certainly. That's the difficulty with having
20 English and B/C/S. But, anyhow, I'll try and get the pages more
21 accurately.
22 JUDGE HALL: So we resume in 20 minutes.
23 [The witness stands down]
24 --- Recess taken at 10.26 a.m.
25 --- On resuming at 10.52 a.m.
Page 23948
1 [Trial Chamber confers]
2 [The witness takes the stand]
3 MS. KORNER: Yes.
4 Q. We now have, General, the equivalent part of your Popovic report
5 with the one we were looking at earlier, which is the formation, manning
6 and organisation of the Army of Republika Srpska.
7 Now, the first unnumbered paragraph here is the equivalent of
8 your paragraph 43, as we looked at earlier, in 43, you talked about a
9 lack of either will or ability of political leaderships. Here, you say
10 it was a consequence of the unwillingness and inability.
11 It's a small point, but why did you change that?
12 A. I do not remember why I changed it, but I don't think it
13 essentially changes the meaning, and I stand by the position that I
14 stated in my later work.
15 Q. Right. Well, paragraph 3 on this page is the equivalent of the
16 beginning of your paragraph 45. Here, you simply state that "the
17 political leaders of the Serbian people ... on the basis of a popular
18 will ... withdrew from the collective BiH organs ..."
19 In paragraph 45 that we looked at you said that it was obvious
20 that the Muslim-Croatian part of the Bosnia-Herzegovina leadership wanted
21 to declare independence of Bosnia and Herzegovina without the agreement
22 of the representatives of the Serbian people.
23 What made you change the fairly neutral, if I can put that way,
24 political leaders of the Serbian people, to: [As read] "It was obvious
25 that the Muslim-Croatian part of the BH leadership wanted to declare
Page 23949
1 independence," or it should read, really, "the independence of Bosnia and
2 Herzegovina."
3 Which is a criticism, isn't it, of the so-called Muslim-Croatian
4 leadership?
5 A. Ms. Korner, I stand by what I wrote in paragraph 45 of my latter
6 report.
7 Q. You may well stand by it, General. My question is: What made
8 you change a neutral proposition to one that is a critical proposition?
9 A. To my mind, this is not essential for the topic of the later
10 report that I drafted for this Tribunal, and I do not remember what
11 guided me.
12 Q. Could that have been one of the discussions you had with
13 Mr. Krgovic that made you change that sentence?
14 A. I do not think I discussed this with Mr. Krgovic.
15 Q. All right. Then in the -- under the A, the formation of the VRS,
16 the paragraph that begins: [As read] "The referendum on the independence
17 of Bosnia and Herzegovina on the 29th and 1st of March, 1992."
18 The equivalent of that in your present report is paragraph 47.
19 You say that in the Popovic report which we have on the screen: "The
20 Serbian people took no part in the referendum?"
21 In your present report, you add: [As read] "International
22 recognition of Bosnia and Herzegovina as an independent state soon
23 followed, accompanied by the inflamed rhetoric of warmongering, increased
24 frequency of armed clashes, and polarisation in the armed forces ..."
25 What made you add that?
Page 23950
1 A. Ms. Korner, I told you that I had only used parts of this report.
2 You will admit that it was my right as an author to amend or change some
3 of my earlier formulations.
4 Q. Of course, it's your right, General. And I wouldn't deny that
5 for one moment. But we're interested in -- or at least the Court may
6 like to know, what lay behind your changes, your methodology.
7 So I'm asking you: Why did you add that in to your present
8 report?
9 A. I probably had more information when I wrote the new report than
10 at the time when I wrote the first one.
11 Q. But you -- I'm sorry.
12 A. Let me remind you that I wrote my first report while I was still
13 an active-duty officer; whereas, I was already retired for two years when
14 I wrote my second report, and that gave me more time to read.
15 Q. But you give no footnote at all for this assertion. So what is
16 it based on? A book? Documents?
17 A. It is based on known facts that international recognition soon
18 ensued. And in the previous paragraphs, I mentioned the dates of the
19 referendum.
20 Q. Yes. Again, without footnotes, but I'll come back to that.
21 MS. KORNER: Can we look then, please, at the next page in -- I
22 think it's -- just let me check that actually.
23 Can we find the part does it say in B/C/S on: "All these armed
24 formations included paramilitary forces ..."
25 Yes, it does, actually. Same page, but with the next page in
Page 23951
1 English, please. It's the penultimate paragraph on that page.
2 Could we look at the next page in English of this report. Thank
3 you.
4 Q. [As read] "All these armed formations included paramilitary
5 formations with different levels of subordination to regular military
6 forces."
7 That is the equivalent of your paragraph 49 in the present report
8 but you state there: [As read] "paramilitary formations were
9 incorporated in all regular armed formations with different degrees of
10 resubordination."
11 Now, can you just check, please, because you've got your present
12 report there, I think, that the translation is correct. You say
13 "resubordination" in paragraph 49; and "subordination" in your original
14 report.
15 A. Ms. Korner, in both reports, the word used is "potcinjavanje,"
16 subordination.
17 Q. All right. That's why I thought I'd check. All right. In that
18 case, that is not a point that I wish to pursue.
19 MS. KORNER: Can we go now, please, to -- in the English -- well,
20 let's stick to that report while we're on that page. Could we go to
21 page 8, please, in English, and in B/C/S, to page 7, I think.
22 Q. Actually, I should have asked you, the word that you've used in
23 both reports originally which you say means subordination -- does it mean
24 subordination or resubordination?
25 A. Subordination.
Page 23952
1 Q. Subordination. Thank you.
2 All right. In this paragraph there, you say: "In the defence
3 and security system of the Republic, the VRS is defined ..."
4 Now it's been translated as "an armed force."
5 Can I ask you, please, just to just read out that sentence,
6 please.
7 Beginning: "In the defence and security system of the
8 Republic ..."
9 A. [As read] "In the defence and security system of the Republic,
10 the VRS is defined as an armed force, the task of which is to defend the
11 sovereignty, territory, independence and constitutional order of
12 Republika Srpska."
13 Q. So the word which is in B/C/S "kao," k-a-o, means "a," or "an,"
14 does it, rather than "the"? In other words, the difference being "an"
15 means -- suggests there is another force. "The" means it is the only
16 armed force. It has been translated as both in the English, so I want to
17 know which is the right translation.
18 A. Ms. Korner, this is about the Army of Republika Srpska being an
19 armed force --
20 Q. [Previous translation continued] ... sorry, my fault. Go on.
21 A. It can be seen from the footnote that I cited that I couldn't
22 formulate it differently from the language used in the law. And that law
23 was adopted in June 1992. And we spoke about this last week and said
24 that there was only the army that was an armed force.
25
Page 23953
1 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: In the Serbian language
2 there is no article.
3 MS. KORNER: I'm not sure what that means, "there's no article."
4 [Microphone not activated]. There's no "a".
5 THE INTERPRETER: Exactly.
6 MS. KORNER: All right.
7 Q. All right. The only thing I want to put to you about that is, in
8 fact, the police was an armed force, wasn't it? The police had arms,
9 weapons?
10 A. Ms. Korner, if we're talking about the international law of war,
11 it is clearly defined there what is to be considered part of the armed
12 forces. At that time, according to the national legislation, the police,
13 under the law cited here, was not part of the armed forces.
14 Q. [Previous translation continued] ... no, I'm sorry, you
15 misunderstand.
16 The police is not defined as part of the military, if you like,
17 but it was, in reality, an armed force, was it not?
18 A. It was armed and it became part of the armed forces at the moment
19 when it becomes part of the complement of a military unit, as I have
20 already explained and when the police are commanded by a military
21 officer [Realtime transcript read in error "an officer"].
22 Q. We're going slightly sidetracked. There were, in fact,
23 differences between the two reports, but -- at this page, but I want to
24 move on to a rather bigger difference, please.
25 MR. ZECEVIC: I'm terribly sorry. 27, 10 I believe the witness
Page 23954
1 said "commanded by a military officer."
2 But you can, perhaps, check it out.
3 MS. KORNER: Yes, I accept that.
4 Q. Did you say, General, that the police were commanded by a
5 military officer?
6 A. Yes, that's what I said.
7 Q. All right. Can we look -- because we might as well stick to one
8 report because otherwise we're going back and forth all the time.
9 Can we look now, please, at page 9 of the report in B/C/S and
10 English under the section C, marked: Organisation.
11 In the second paragraph there, you say: "The extensive nature of
12 the territory of the Republika Srpska and the great length of the front
13 line ..."
14 Yes, C, organisation. So it's the next page, please, in B/C/S.
15 Thank you.
16 [As read] "The extensive nature of the territory of the
17 Republika Srpska and the great length of the front line, as well as
18 certain political beliefs, led to tactical units being organised on the
19 territorial principle ..."
20 Now can we have a look, please, at the report for this case, at
21 paragraph 65.
22 Yes, if we can perhaps highlight it in the English.
23 There you say: "The extended area of Republika Srpska" instead
24 of "the extensive nature of Republika Srpska," but I think it may be
25 translation: "And the great length of its line of engagement."
Page 23955
1 Before that, it was front line: "As well as certain political
2 beliefs."
3 So that is the same as your Popovic report. But then we get
4 this: [As read] "And the influence of local, particularly municipal,
5 organs of authority on the army and police command and control, led to
6 tactical units being organised on the territorial principle ..."
7 Now those words, "the influence of local, particularly municipal,
8 organs of authority on army and police command and control," have been
9 added by you in this report. Why?
10 A. Ms. Korner, it is really difficult for me to defend two reports
11 at the same time, even though they're mine.
12 But it's not a problem. This is, again, an extended formulation,
13 and I repeat, that I stand by the language used in the more recent
14 report.
15 Q. Yes. But I want to know how you came to add that. "The
16 influence of local, particularly municipal ... "
17 Did you add that after you'd had a discussion with Mr. Krgovic?
18 A dilemma?
19 A. I do not remember speaking to Mr. Krgovic about this, but it must
20 certainly be the -- be due to some new insight I gained.
21 Q. Yes. But is that new insight from Mr. Krgovic who explained to
22 you that part of the defence in this case was to assert that the police
23 were being controlled by the municipal Crisis Staffs.
24 Did he tell you that?
25 A. I may have seen that in some documents.
Page 23956
1 Q. Well, there's not a footnote there, nor do you refer to a single
2 Crisis Staff document in your bibliography. So where did you get that
3 from, if not from Mr. Krgovic?
4 A. I have already told you that I frequently went to the RS. And I
5 mentioned that my brother was a police officer all the time, and still
6 is.
7 Q. So are you saying that your brother, at some stage between your
8 writing the Popovic report and writing this report, told you that "local,
9 particularly municipal, organs of authority ..." had an influence on the
10 police?
11 A. Ms. Korner, you are insisting on my refreshing my memory. I'm
12 not sure how I arrived at this very formulation, but I'm sure that it's
13 part of the preparations and the efforts I made when writing my report.
14 And I maintain that it is true.
15 Q. We go back to the importance of footnoting. But, I'm sorry, I'm
16 going to, as you put it, insist, how is it that you changed in some - you
17 wrote your Popovic report, I think, in 2008 -- almost. March 2008, so
18 exactly three years ago - that you suddenly decided to add that it was
19 "local, particularly municipal, organs of authority" who affected the
20 police, command and control issues in the police and army?
21 A. Ms. Korner, in the other report, the subject I researched was
22 different. I had to add some elements, in order to emphasise what I was
23 saying so that my expert contribution would be as great as possible.
24 Q. Yes. But, you see, you didn't just say about the police. You
25 said it was the army as well. And if it was the army, then why wasn't it
Page 23957
1 in your original Popovic report?
2 A. It's possible that I left it out in the first report.
3 Q. Yes. Didn't you put it into this report, as I say, because
4 Mr. Krgovic told you that part of the defence in this case was to blame
5 the municipal organs, the Crisis Staffs?
6 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Is there anything disputed about
7 the fact in this case that there was some influence of the local organs
8 on the work of the military and the police? I think this is part of the
9 OTP arguments, if they are disputing this.
10 MS. KORNER: This is disgraceful. I am properly cross-examining
11 the General. Interruptions like this to assist the General are improper.
12 [Defence counsel confer]
13 MS. KORNER: The reason that I'm asking the General this, is not
14 because of what the evidence in the case is but why he changed his
15 report.
16 Q. Now, General, I'm asking you for the last time: Did you put that
17 in because of your knowledge of the Defence in this case from
18 Mr. Krgovic, or any other member of his team?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Your brother who was a police officer in Prnjavor, what was his
21 rank?
22 A. I don't know exactly, but he was one of the people who were in
23 charge at the local police station.
24 Q. Well, surely you know what rank. Was he a commander of the
25 police station, chief of the SJB, an inspector?
Page 23958
1 A. No, he was neither of these. But he may have been the head of
2 one of the departments.
3 Q. Well, which -- he may have been anything. But which department?
4 A. The police department in that particular station. I very rarely
5 talk with him about his specific duties.
6 Q. But he was able to give you, you tell us, this information about
7 the "influence of local, particularly municipal, organs of authority"?
8 A. I have told you that because I know. And I told you that I
9 discussed with him because he was fighting in the war for four years.
10 Sometimes he had to leave the local public security station and go as far
11 as 2- or 300 kilometres away.
12 MS. KORNER: Would Your Honours forgive me. I just want to check
13 whether I ...
14 Q. Yes. While we are on -- this is the last part that I want to ask
15 you about. Paragraph 192 onwards. Page 39 in English. And in B/C/S,
16 it's ...
17 You say in this report: [As read] "The VRS chain of command
18 extends from the president of the republic, in his capacity as the
19 Commander-in-Chief, via the commander of the Main Staff" --
20 MS. KORNER: Next page in English, please.
21 Q. "... and commanders down ... to every single individual."
22 Then, 193: [As read] "No persons other than commanders (or, in
23 their absence, chiefs of staff) were ever part of the chain of
24 command ..."
25 194, you talk about the line of reporting.
Page 23959
1 And then 195: [As read] "All of the above that pertains to the
2 commanding function and the chain of command also pertains to temporary
3 formations and resubordinated units."
4 Again, is the word "subordinated" or "resubordinated"?
5 A. The formulation here is "resubordinated units."
6 Q. All right. So there it is actually "resubordinated."
7 Now can we look, please, at the equivalent --
8 A. May I just add that there is a difference between subordination
9 and resubordination. If you would like me to explain that. Because
10 these notions are not the same.
11 Q. No. And I think you have explained it. A subordinate unit is
12 one that is there and comes under the command during the course of its
13 normal functions, I suppose you can put it; and resubordinated is when
14 you get a unit that would not normally be subordinated that comes under
15 that command.
16 Is that an accurate summary?
17 A. Well, not quite.
18 Q. All right. You explain, please. Briefly.
19 A. Resubordination, that we are using here, is a case in which a
20 commander has a certain unit and for the needs of a specific task, he
21 then selects a part of his own unit and attaches it to another unit. So
22 that is the act of resubordinating it. And once this is completed, then
23 the relationship is one of subordination. And there is another case,
24 which is most frequent, when we are talking about police or some other
25 formations which are not part of the unit, then they are attached and
Page 23960
1 this is called attaching them. But, once again, even in such a case the
2 relationship is one of subordination. So we talked about these acts and
3 about the relationship.
4 Q. Right. Now can we look, please, at your Popovic report at
5 page 15 in English. And I think it's page 14 -- 13 in the B/C/S.
6 Do you see the paragraph that begins:
7 [As read] "The chain of command in the VRS was supposed to extend
8 from the president of the republic as Supreme Commander to the
9 General Staff commander, to the commanders of operational-tactical and
10 tactical units and through all the commanders of smaller units to each
11 individual. However, it was the habit of the president of the republic
12 to command, while disregarding the commander of the General Staff.
13 Contrary to regulations, the Supreme Commander sometimes issued
14 assignments to corps and even brigades."
15 Where do we see any of that in your present report?
16 A. I did not believe that I had to copy everything from the previous
17 report into the new one. In the first part, I referred in the footnote
18 to a formulation that is here.
19 Q. But, I'm sorry, General. I -- you can change your report, and
20 you have changed your report. In this respect, I'm asking why. Because
21 in your present report, you don't give any of the caveats that we see in
22 this paragraph.
23 So what made you drop the caveats?
24 A. I don't remember, Ms. Korner.
25 Q. All right. That's all that I want to ask you.
Page 23961
1 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, may I ask now, given that we've been
2 through quite a lot of this report, that his Popovic report be made an
3 exhibit in the case, so that the differences are clear.
4 JUDGE HALL: I'm not sure I follow why, Ms. Korner.
5 MS. KORNER: Because there are substantial differences between
6 what he's got in the Popovic report on the same topic and those that he
7 has in this report.
8 If, at the end of the day, you decide not to admit his report for
9 this case, then that's fine. But, at the moment, I'm working on the
10 basis that you may decide to admit it; and, therefore, it is important
11 that one can see the differences in the two reports.
12 [Trial Chamber and Legal Officer confer]
13 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Krgovic -- sorry, Mr. Zecevic, whichever of you
14 wants to go first.
15 MR. ZECEVIC: Your Honours, I do strongly object to this. The
16 position so far in this trial has been that if -- if the issue is on the
17 transcript, which it is, with the -- with the answers -- with the
18 witness's answer on the transcript there is certainly no need to -- to
19 admit another document. I can name a number of instances when -- when --
20 when that was the -- that was the decision of the Trial Chamber.
21 Especially in a case when we have an expert witness and now we are
22 admitting the expert report which has nothing to do with this. It's from
23 another case.
24 I object to this, Your Honours. Thank you.
25 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Krgovic.
Page 23962
1 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Once again, if this report is to be
2 admitted the problem is with the footnotes because the footnote quoted by
3 Ms. Korner in the specific example talks about the Operation Srebrenica
4 in 1995 and the command, so we would have to admit the footnote with the
5 exhibit which the witness referred to here. Because the question was
6 taken out of the context of the report.
7 And that would bring us into a situation where we would have to
8 include all these parts. Because specifically when Ms. Korner talked
9 about the part that was left out, what is mentioned is a specific
10 transcript and a specific event from 1995. So we should include that
11 transcript as well.
12 MS. KORNER: [Microphone not activated] ... the point has been
13 lost slightly.
14 This is previous, we suggest, previous inconsistent statements
15 made by this witness. It goes wholly and completely to the credibility
16 of his report in this case and his credibility as a witness. It is
17 therefore important that if anybody wants to check - it's got nothing to
18 do with the admitting of the footnotes - we need to have that report
19 there.
20 JUDGE HALL: Ms. Korner, as Mr. Krgovic has said, and I fully
21 appreciate the path you have gone down of challenging the witness's
22 credibility on previous inconsistent statements. But as Mr. Zecevic has
23 said, the relevant parts have been put to him and are now part of the
24 transcript. Why do we need to burden ourselves with this report? For
25 the Trial Chamber itself to conduct a side by side compare and contrast
Page 23963
1 exercise.
2 MS. KORNER: If necessary, Your Honours. I have skipped some
3 things. There are other parts of that report that are different.
4 Your Honours, unless it's made an exhibit - and I confess, I fail
5 to see the difficulty with this - there's no way of dealing with it.
6 It's not enough to say -- otherwise I'm going to take up even more time
7 by going through other differences. But, Your Honour, my suggestion,
8 clearly put, is that there are differences. And one of the matters that
9 Your Honours will have to consider is what those differences are and --
10 and -- and, I suppose, how major they are.
11 [Trial Chamber confers]
12 JUDGE HALL: The Chamber is not persuaded that this earlier
13 report should be admitted. The -- it is it patent from the record the
14 challenge that the Prosecution has made to the credibility of the witness
15 based on what, in the Prosecution's view, are inconsistent statements.
16 And no doubt at the appropriate stage arguments would be advanced along
17 those lines. But we see no need to admit this earlier report as a
18 separate exhibit.
19 MS. KORNER:
20 Q. I want to turn, General, now to the footnotes in your present
21 report.
22 Would you accept that in comparison with the reports you looked
23 at over the weekend from Dr. Nielsen and Mr. Brown, your report is very
24 sparsely footnoted?
25 A. I agree.
Page 23964
1 Q. And, as we established when I first asking [sic] you questions,
2 would you accept that it is important when coming to conclusions to,
3 first of all, look at the original, or copies of original documents if
4 possible?
5 A. I agree.
6 Q. And that if footnoting, it's important to be accurate in -- in
7 the -- the quote that you take from the book or from the document?
8 A. That's right.
9 Q. I want to start, first of all, with the footnote to your
10 paragraph 50. Footnote number 10. And that's page 17 in English of your
11 report. That's paragraph 50. Footnote number 10.
12 You cite, for the decision on the withdrawal, a book by some
13 people called Pavlovic and Popovic. And can we just have a look at that,
14 please. It is 20235, and it's tab 97.
15 Do you agree -- it's a photocopy that we've been provided of this
16 book that you've relied on entitled: "Succession orchestrated by the
17 great powers."
18 Is that right?
19 A. That's correct.
20 Q. Can we look, then, please, at the -- published in -- the next
21 page showing that it was published in Belgrade in 1996. And then the
22 page thereafter in English which is the third page, and I hope it's --
23 the introduction.
24 [As read] "The disintegration of the SFRY began with Slovenia's
25 violent secession but the flames of the civil war were fanned by the
Page 23965
1 newly formed Croatian Democratic Party's leadership. With their violent
2 secession, Slovenia and Croatia committed an aggression against the state
3 of the SFRY and, together about Bosnia and Herzegovina's Muslims, started
4 a civil war, causing immense human casualties and suffering in the
5 territory of the former Yugoslavia."
6 If we skip the next sentence: "Not even the apocalyptic [sic]
7 vision of a bloody civil war could deter primeval, hate-fueled
8 secessionists from their plans."
9 Would you agree that this is a very, very, one-sided view of the
10 conflict?
11 A. Ms. Korner, in my work, I cited in the footnote what exactly it
12 was that I took from this book. I did not use this introduction for my
13 report.
14 Q. Yes, we'll see that. But why did you use this book?
15 A. Well, I had it in my personal library. It was written by people
16 who have the highest qualifications. It was issued by the -- published
17 by the Institute for Political Studies, which is an institution that has
18 a good reputation. And I used it because, in the time that I had at my
19 disposal, I could not find the original order on the withdrawal of units
20 of JNA, which I needed, and I was aware that this piece of information
21 was exactly quoted in this book.
22 Q. Yes. But we'll come to that right now. But you say you couldn't
23 find it. And you were dependent, to a certain extent, on Mr. Krgovic's
24 provision of documents to you. Did you ever ask Mr. Krgovic, Is there a
25 copy of the JNA withdrawal order that you could let me see?
Page 23966
1 A. Ms. Korner, I believed that to confirm this fact, it was
2 sufficient to rely on a scientific and publicly published work, which
3 included this information about the order and the withdrawal of JNA
4 units. And I do not see anything that can be contested about this piece
5 of information.
6 Q. All right. Well, let's have a look at another part of this
7 scientific public work.
8 MS. KORNER: Could we go, please, in English to page 24.
9 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I'm not sure where
10 this line of questioning of Ms. Korner is taking us. We are discussing a
11 date, which is not at stake. So what is the purpose of showing the
12 witness another paragraph from the book and saying that the book is like
13 this or like that.
14 The witness said clearly why he used this book as a source of
15 reference.
16 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Krgovic, I confess I agree with you entirely.
17 Ms. Korner, the -- how -- how is this -- if -- if the passages to
18 which you have referred and I don't know, of course, what you -- what
19 other passages you intend to refer the witness to are not passages that
20 he relied or cited with approval, where does this take us?
21 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, in order to explain that, I'm going to
22 ask the witness to leave court. I'm really sorry that Your Honour cannot
23 see it, and I will explain it, if Your Honours will allow me to explain
24 it, when I finish the part of the examination.
25 But, otherwise I would have to ask the witness to leave court.
Page 23967
1 JUDGE HALL: How long would it -- the reason why I'm asking is
2 that we're 15 minutes away from the adjournment and I'm wondering if the
3 witness being excused now should not think of returning until 12.25.
4 MS. KORNER: No, Your Honours, I'd like to finish this, it's very
5 short and then move to the next footnote. And when he has left, I can
6 explain.
7 JUDGE HALL: You're asking him to leave now.
8 MS. KORNER: No.
9 JUDGE HALL: I'm sorry. I misunderstood you.
10 MS. KORNER: I'm asking to be allowed to continue this line of
11 cross-examination, with an explanation as to why I'm pursuing this when
12 we -- just before the break.
13 [Trial Chamber confers]
14 MS. KORNER: Otherwise, I will have to ask the witness to leave
15 court because he does speak English.
16 [Trial Chamber confers]
17 JUDGE HALL: Ms. Korner, it appears to us that this is, for the
18 moment, irrelevant.
19 So we would ask the witness to be excused so that you can make
20 your case as to why you should be permitted to continue.
21 [The witness stands down]
22 [Trial Chamber confers]
23 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, the reason that I'm asking these
24 questions and putting another part of the book to him which is actually
25 opposite where he obtained this quote from, is to show that the witness
Page 23968
1 is, to put it simply, an unapologetic Serb nationalist and apologist who
2 is using books as part of his reading, if you like, for the preparation
3 of these paper [sic] which are not proper academic books at all.
4 Your Honour, you will see that most of the assertions he makes
5 are totally unfootnoted. And, therefore, it is important, which would
6 submit, for the Court to see what he is relying on for his version of
7 events, which is not documents at all, because he hasn't seen any, but
8 books like this.
9 JUDGE HALL: But, Ms. Korner, isn't it a common experience that
10 no matter what field we're talking about in history, politics, religion,
11 that there would be authors whose views may generally be held to be quite
12 odious but somewhere buried in the pile of whatever, there is a germ of
13 truth, and isn't a witness entitled to mine for material in wherever it's
14 likely to be found.
15 I appreciate, from the passages that you have seen, that this
16 is -- this -- this book may be dismissed as a polemic, anti- -- pro-Serb
17 tirade but it does necessarily follow from those criticisms which attach
18 to the book that the portions on which the -- the witness relied
19 undermines his credibility. The logic of that, with respect, I can't
20 follow.
21 MS. KORNER: But, Your Honours, you will see that on a number of
22 occasions during the actual report, particularly the beginning parts, he
23 gives a view of the conflict clearly not based, because he has not seen
24 any of the documents, the beginnings and particularly the VRS, which he
25 has already said are based on his background reading and, Your Honour,
Page 23969
1 this and he say this is one of the books in his library. It is not
2 surprising, we would submit that -- that the sort of views he expresses
3 in his report in his general sections are written in the way that they
4 are. And unless Your Honours see what he is relying on, you cannot
5 assess that.
6 JUDGE HALL: But the point that you made about -- you -- you made
7 it today, I think you made it one day last week, in terms of his
8 methodology that his - the paucity on the primary sources on which he
9 relies, seriously affects the worth of the finished product, and,
10 ultimately, therefore, the weight, for our purposes the Trial Chamber
11 would give to it. Isn't that sufficient without going down this road?
12 MS. KORNER: Well, Your Honours, I'm hoping to persuade Your
13 Honours that it goes a great deal further than giving it weight, that at
14 the end of the day it should be, under Rule 95, struck out because there
15 has to come a point where the Trial Chamber should say, This can't go on.
16 But that's to jump ahead.
17 Your Honours, if Your Honours feel that his evident bias is
18 already present then I won't pursue this. Because as I say, this comes
19 out because he takes the 4th of May decision from -- not only from the
20 main part of this -- this -- this tome but from a footnote which doesn't
21 give the document either.
22 So Your Honours, if that's evident, Your Honours, then I won't
23 pursue it but I can't take anything for granted. And it is really
24 important, in our submission, that Your Honours have the full picture how
25 this man came to write the report and his background knowledge, the
Page 23970
1 source of his background knowledge, his experience, which he is relying
2 on.
3 So that's the submissions that I make on why I'm doing this.
4 JUDGE HALL: Thank you.
5 Mr. Zecevic.
6 MR. ZECEVIC: Your Honours, I understood the -- the leave of the
7 Trial Chamber to Ms. Korner is to -- to explain to us why she wants to
8 insist on this particular answer and showing this particular book.
9 However, what Ms. Korner is doing is she is testifying and making
10 the submissions on the expert report, which I don't think it is
11 appropriate at this point.
12 Now, Your Honours, I do object, because it is, a simply and very
13 clearly, and the witness -- the expert answered two times: I used this
14 book for particular reason. The date of the order to withdraw. That is
15 the only thing. So the footnote confirms the date of the order of the
16 withdrawal of the -- of the army from Bosnia and Herzegovina.
17 There is nothing from that book that he took except the date of
18 the order. And he wrote that in his -- in his -- in -- in his expert
19 report, and explained over here. So I don't see any basis for Ms. Korner
20 to claim what she claimed and made -- made a submission as she did, and
21 to answer any other question on this particular book. Because this book
22 was used for the purposes for the very specific purpose of the date of
23 the order, which the witness knows by the -- by the way the -- that is
24 his testimony, that he knows that the order exists. He just -- and he
25 knows that the -- that the date is accurate.
Page 23971
1 I don't really see where we are with going in this respect. I --
2 I must say, that I think that with all due respect that Ms. Korner is
3 just using up the time because we are not going to the merit of -- of the
4 witness's -- witness's expert report for the fourth day in a row. We're
5 discussing -- I know that Ms. Korner is entitled to test the credibility
6 of the witness, and I don't have a problem with that. I surely -- I hope
7 that the Trial Chamber will understand that as I understand it. That --
8 but I don't want to make submissions at this point.
9 Thank you.
10 JUDGE HALL: Thank you, Mr. Zecevic.
11 Do you wish to add anything, Mr. Krgovic [Microphone not
12 activated].
13 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I fully agree with
14 what Mr. Zecevic said.
15 MS. KORNER: First, Your Honour, this is it not Mr. Zecevic's
16 witness, and Mr. Zecevic has a vested interest, as well as Mr. Krgovic,
17 from preventing this. But it really is important because it is not just
18 the contents of the report. But when you get something like this, using
19 material like this, for whatever reason, and the suggestion that we make,
20 and I think he has already confirmed it, is that he thinks -- I think he
21 said it was a scientific -- it was written by persons of the highest
22 qualifications and it is scientific and all the rest of it.
23 Now, Your Honours, it is important --
24 JUDGE HARHOFF: Ms. Korner, I haven't had the time to check all
25 the footnotes, but are you able to tell us whether the General, in his
Page 23972
1 report, refers to this book in other footnotes than footnote 10?
2 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I think so. So I would have to
3 double-check that. But I think he does. Because I just picked on this
4 particular footnote.
5 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] I think not, Your Honour. I
6 believe that this is the only citation.
7 MS. KORNER: [Previous translation continued] ... Mr. Smith has
8 just checked and that's the only citation.
9 [Trial Chamber confers]
10 JUDGE HALL: Well, we're near the break, so we will resume at
11 12.25.
12 --- Recess taken at 12.02 p.m.
13 --- On resuming at 12.32 p.m.
14 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
15 JUDGE HALL: Before the witness is escorted back to the stand,
16 the Chamber has one question of Ms. Korner to which it requires a short
17 answer. And that is whether you're in a position to, if you are
18 permitted to continue along this line of cross-examination of the
19 witness, point to any portion of his report which you could then argue or
20 suggest has its origin in this book that you're presently -- that you
21 presently have up.
22 MS. KORNER: Do you mean a direct quote from the book?
23 JUDGE HALL: Not necessarily a direct quote. But we thought we
24 understood your line of questions to be that -- apart from the specific
25 citation in the footnote that we all agree is what the witness admitted
Page 23973
1 he relied on this book for. We thought that the purpose of your intended
2 line of questions was that the witness's -- that -- that you would be in
3 a position, if permitted to continue, to show that the witness -- that
4 this witness's report --
5 MS. KORNER: Yes. Your Honour, if you go to -- there's no direct
6 quote. What I'm putting to the witness is that his line of thinking,
7 particularly in regard to the part of his report headed: Formation,
8 organisation and tasks of the armed forces of Republika Srpska, is
9 heavily influenced by his reading of matter such as the book that I have
10 just pointed to.
11 We better have the screen, please, the section, Formation
12 organisation and tasks of the armed forces of Republika Srpska.
13 JUDGE HALL: We don't know that we need the details.
14 MS. KORNER: Oh, I see.
15 JUDGE HALL: Your answer is you think can.
16 MS. KORNER: I would suggest that certainly part of that is based
17 not just on the book, but his general reading of books which, as I put
18 it, are one-sided, as background to what he wrote in his report.
19 [Trial Chamber confers]
20 JUDGE HALL: So when the witness comes back in, we would permit
21 you to continue. And you're on a short leash, Ms. Korner. And we expect
22 that the -- the rest of time you have allotted to you, you would move
23 into the substance of his report.
24 MS. KORNER: Yes, Your Honours. I realise -- I've done very
25 little so far, strangely enough. It was only about three and a half
Page 23974
1 hours by the end of Friday.
2 JUDGE HALL: [Microphone not activated] It's now five hours and
3 ten minutes.
4 MS. KORNER: Yes, thank you.
5 JUDGE HALL: Yes, so could the witness be conducted back to the
6 stand, please.
7 [Trial Chamber confers]
8 [The witness takes the stand]
9 MS. KORNER:
10 Q. General, just before we go to the actual part where you took the
11 quote from, I was showing you a part of the book - I don't know what
12 we've got up at the moment - it should be page 24 in English. Yes, it
13 is. And the same in --
14 Do you see the paragraph in the B/C/S that begins: "Instead of
15 having a calming effect ..." which is on the previous page in English.
16 Is it up on the page. I can't tell.
17 Is there a paragraph there that begins: "Instead of having a
18 calming effect ..."
19 MS. KORNER: No, there isn't in the English, Your Honours.
20 The part of the English that I want to refer to is that first
21 paragraph which actually begins -- I'm almost beginning to think that
22 isn't worth the effort, Your Honours?
23 Q. General, just answer the question, would you kind enough, is
24 there a paragraph in front of you on the page in B/C/S, that begins:
25 "Instead of having a calming effect ..."
Page 23975
1 Is that the first paragraph?
2 A. [Overlapping speakers] ... Yes.
3 Q. Towards the end of that first paragraph, do we see these words:
4 [As rea] "All barracks in towns where the Muslims and Croats were the
5 majority population were exposed to fierce and unprovoked attacks. The
6 Serb civilian population was exposed to the same acts. By means of
7 horrific crimes over helpless elderly people, women, and even children,
8 the Serb population was also threatened with physical extermination. By
9 that time, it had already become clear that the Muslim-Croatian
10 leadership had opted for the use of force against the Serb people and the
11 JNA in Bosnia and Herzegovina."
12 Now, General, as we'll see when we come to it, you adopted part
13 of that paragraph, didn't you in your own report?
14 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the Prosecutor please specify
15 in which part of his report.
16 MS. KORNER: Paragraph 46. No, let's not go there. I don't want
17 to change documents. It takes too long. Thank you. We'll come to it.
18 I assure you we'll come it.
19 Q. Did you that was an accurate description of what happened,
20 General?
21 A. Ms. Korner, I have already said in which part I used this book.
22 I used it only to quote the date of the decision on the withdrawal of the
23 JNA from Bosnia-Herzegovina.
24 Q. Yes, we'll come to this in a moment, or I suggest at least part
25 of that report, part of your report at paragraph 46 contains part of this
Page 23976
1 paragraph in slightly different words, I agree.
2 But I'm asking you now whether you believe that this description
3 of what happened, namely, that barracks in towns where Muslims and Croats
4 were the majority population were exposed to fierce and unprovoked
5 attacks. The Serb civilian option was exposed to the same acts?
6 Do you believe that that is an accurate description of what
7 happened?
8 A. Ms. Korner, I stand by the positions I put forward in my report.
9 If you are actually -- if that's what you're getting at.
10 Q. No, I'm asking you, please, General, whether, based on this book
11 which you think is academic and whatever - I don't remember your exact
12 words now - you accept that this description of what happened is an
13 accurate account of the events --
14 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Just one question: Are you now
15 examining the witness as an expert, or are you trying to elicit
16 information he got personally?
17 MS. KORNER: For the nth time, I would ask the Court --
18 JUDGE HALL: Please continue, Ms. Korner.
19 MS. KORNER: Thank you.
20 Q. Right. General, do you accept from your reading of this book and
21 which you used for the basis of definitely the cite about the 4th of May,
22 is an accurate account of what happened?
23 A. I cannot confirm that because this was written by other people.
24 These are not my words. I include an account of these events in my
25 report and I stand by it.
Page 23977
1 Q. Let's go to paragraph 46 and the quote that you use -- sorry,
2 the, quote that you used it for, can we go to 52, please -- sorry, in the
3 book. Can we go to the next page in the book. Sorry, it's page 109,
4 page 52 of the translation. Yep.
5 There we see: [As read] "the SFRY Presidency decision of the 4th
6 of May for all JNA members ... to pull out -- to pull out of the
7 territory of Bosnia and Herzegovina. And no later than May 19th ... did
8 not contribute to the conflicts stopping, nor did it ease them. On the
9 contrary, in the period of these JNA members pulling out, they were
10 exposed to treacherous and perfidious attacks in which serious losses
11 were inflicted on them."
12 And if we look at the footnote for that, it's all about
13 manipulation of the Muslim-Croat part of the Bosnia-Herzegovina
14 leadership concerning the extraction of cadets from the military high
15 school from Sarajevo. And that's, again, unquoted. So we don't know
16 where he got that from, or the author has got that from.
17 All right. Can we now go, please, to paragraph 46 of your
18 present report.
19 You say: "The role of the Yugoslav People's Army was to prevent
20 interethnic armed conflict."
21 I'll come back to that one later.
22 [As read] "Hostility towards the JNA gradually developed in
23 Bosnia and Herzegovina just as it had done in Slovenia and Croatia. The
24 army, its members, and facilities were subject to provocations and
25 attacks. The aim was to provoke the army into a combat engagement that
Page 23978
1 would justify secession. The Muslim and Croatian political leadership in
2 Bosnia-Herzegovina conducted a propaganda campaign branding the JNA an
3 aggressor and the Serbian Chetnik army ...," and so on and do forth.
4 There is no footnote for these assertion. Where did you get that
5 from?
6 A. Ms. Korner, we received much information from our superior
7 commands. And, based on that, I briefed our personnel. This information
8 included these things and this also -- this is also in line with some of
9 my personal experience from the war. I told you that for a while I was
10 in charge of the press centre in Bihac, and that one of my tasks was to
11 gather any information published in the media, to edit that information
12 and forward it to the superior command. That information included what I
13 wrote here. This is all my personal experience and information I got
14 directly during the time when I served in the Yugoslav People's Army.
15 I also obtained information subsequently at conferences about the
16 experiences from previous wars.
17 Q. Because, you see, you put into inverted commas, the words
18 "aggressor and Serbian Chetnik army."
19 Which seems to suggest that you're quoting something. But you
20 say you're not quoting anything?
21 A. That is correct. I'm not quoting anything.
22 Q. Isn't it, in fact, a slightly, as it were, less emotive rendering
23 of that particular paragraph that we looked at in that particular book?
24 A. No.
25 Q. All right. Well, let's move very quickly through a couple of
Page 23979
1 more footnotes.
2 MS. KORNER: Can we have a look, please, at footnote number 24, I
3 believe it is, which is on page 19 of the English. It refers to
4 paragraph 58.
5 Q. Where you say: "The organisation of the VRS was outlined after
6 its formation."
7 For organisation, you quote -- you footnote, rather, a book by
8 Mr. Kosovac, which I think is the organisation of the -- in English, is
9 "Elements of the Organisation of the Yugoslavia Army"; is that right?
10 A. That's right.
11 Q. Do we understand from that, that you meant the reader to
12 extrapolate that the organisation, therefore, the VRS, came from this
13 book?
14 A. No, Ms. Korner.
15 Q. Well, I'm sorry, why did you -- when you put the organisation of
16 the VRS and you footnote this book by Mr. Kosovac as your source for
17 this. So if it's not meant to be the source for this, what is it meant
18 to be?
19 A. It says specifically here in my report that the footnote comes
20 just after the word "organisation" and there is another footnote after
21 the abbreviation, the VRS.
22 Q. Yes. But we better take this in order. I wasn't going to bother
23 about the second one because the second one has got nothing do, as we'll
24 see, with the VRS.
25 So organisation, you footnote Mr. Kosovac. For the VRS --
Page 23980
1 JUDGE HARHOFF: Ms. Korner, the witness has asked for a break.
2 MS. KORNER: Oh, sorry, I hadn't noticed.
3 THE WITNESS: It's okay.
4 MS. KORNER:
5 Q. General, if you'd like a break, say so straight away. Are you
6 sure you're all right?
7 Let's have a look, please, can we have up on the screen, please,
8 it's 96. So 20237.
9 This was Mr. -- Colonel, I beg pardon. Colonel Kosovac, his
10 graduation thesis published in 1995: "Basic organisation of the Yugoslav
11 Army."
12 So is he talking about the JNA or the VJ? Well, we can see it's
13 the VJ, actually, if we go to the next --
14 Can we go to the -- your footnote says page 7, and it's the
15 second page in the English translation.
16 Well, can we have the second page - it may just be that's the
17 only part we put in - in B/C/S, please. Yep. Thank you.
18 What -- this gentleman, Colonel Kosovac, is showing in his
19 diagram is the organisation of the VJ. Now can I say straight away that
20 I accept that all these armies were derived from the old JNA. But why
21 did you footnote Mr. Kosovac's diagram of the VJ as opposed to anybody
22 who talked about the VRS?
23 A. Ms. Korner, I selected this work because this particular officer
24 dealt with issues of organisation throughout his professional career. He
25 was the most competent person in the former Yugoslav People's Army, and,
Page 23981
1 then later on, in the Yugoslav army.
2 Q. Yes, I'm sorry, General, are you saying you had no document,
3 book, or anything available to you that showed you that -- that the --
4 the organisation of the VRS, which is what you're talking about in this
5 paragraph, as opposed to the VJ?
6 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] I object to this. Because I think
7 this is misleading the witness.
8 The witness did not use this, and he answered the Prosecutor's
9 question clearly, that he did not use it for the organisation of VRS but
10 for organisation in general. Organisation as such.
11 So what Ms. Korner is suggesting that he said is incorrect. This
12 footnote does not refer to the VRS, and he answered that clearly. So
13 please do not mislead and confuse the witness.
14 MS. KORNER: All right.
15 Q. Let's go back one step. This is taking a very long time for what
16 should be a very short point.
17 In that paragraph, are you talking about the organisation of the
18 VRS? Paragraph 58.
19 MS. KORNER: And let's go back to that.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is correct. This
21 paragraph talks about the organisation of the VRS, but as for the first
22 notion, organisation, I wanted to refer to something that defines the
23 notion of organisation, and, therefore, I referred to this gentleman's
24 work.
25 MS. KORNER:
Page 23982
1 Q. That was my original question until I was interrupted again.
2 Are you saying that there was no other textbook or document you
3 could find to demonstrate the organisation of the VRS?
4 A. Ms. Korner, I just wanted to say what organisation as a term
5 means. I do not discuss the organisation of the VRS here, but, rather, I
6 clarified that later on, in another section of my report.
7 Q. All right. You see, because -- and let's look at the next
8 footnote. So back, please, to paragraph 58. 0031D2. Because you said,
9 a minute ago you told me that it was the second footnote that you put,
10 after the words "VRS."
11 Number 25.
12 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] No, that's not what the witness
13 said. He said in later footnotes rather than in the next, that is to
14 say, following footnote.
15 Please stop misleading the witness.
16 MS. KORNER: At page 52, line 17, or line 13.
17 [As read] "Q. Well, I'm sorry. Why did you, when you put the
18 organisation of the VRS, did you footnote this book by Mr. Kosovac as
19 your source for this. If it is not meant to be your source, what is it
20 meant to be.
21 The General replied: [As read] "It says specifically here in my
22 report that the footnote comes after the word organisation and there is
23 another footnote after the abbreviation, the VRS."
24 And that footnote, you footnote a gentleman called Mr. Wiatr, a
25 Pole, who gave a sociological definition of the army as a social
Page 23983
1 institution, the army as an organisation, and so on and so forth.
2 And, indeed, that is what the book is about and, in fact, you
3 took that out of the introduction I think, or later on. But that's not
4 about the VRS, is it. It is about general sociological implications of
5 the army.
6 A. That is correct.
7 Q. Right. Well, let's move to the next footnote, please, and I hope
8 this is the last one that I'm going to ask you about.
9 Could we look, please, at your footnote --
10 MS. KORNER: Sorry, Your Honours, I'm just going to skip a couple
11 which I had done, but -- yeah.
12 Yes, could we look, please, at paragraph 93, footnote 43.
13 Q. You say there that:
14 [As read] "Command is ... uninterrupted, unified and
15 interconnected process, and consists of the assignment of tasks by
16 command documents (orders, commands, directives and instructions."
17 Do we understand that the words in italics, "the assignment of
18 tasks by command documents (orders, commands, directives and
19 instructions)" is a direct quote?
20 A. That's right.
21 Q. All right. It may be just us. I'm sorry. Yes.
22 MS. KORNER: Could we have up, please - I do hope this is the
23 right book - page -- sorry. Document 20234.
24 Q. Is that the book?
25 A. That's the book, Ms. Korner.
Page 23984
1 Q. Then can we go, first of all, in this book, please, to, in B/C/S,
2 it's the third page, and in English, it's the fifth page.
3 Can you, because you quote this page 145, and I hope that's what
4 we've got up in -- no.
5 MS. KORNER: Can we go to the next page in B/C/S.
6 Q. Can you tell us where those words appear? And we've got the
7 wrong page in English, I think. It should be headed: Military control.
8 Can we go back a page. Yep.
9 A. Ms. Korner, I am afraid that there may have been a technical
10 error in terms of the number of the page. That is possible, as the title
11 here is "Military Control," and I discuss command here. So I'm afraid
12 that perhaps I did not put the right page in my footnote with a reference
13 to the paragraph from which I took this.
14 Q. All right. Well, let look at --
15 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] It is an error, but it is an error
16 in the footnote so that ...
17 MS. KORNER: Do you know [Overlapping speakers] ... I'm now
18 asking that Your Honours direct Mr. Krgovic to stop giving the witness
19 answers.
20 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] I wanted to tell you what the right
21 footnote was.
22 JUDGE HALL: I thought he was being helpful, Ms. Korner.
23 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, footnote --
24 JUDGE HALL: On this occasion.
25 MS. KORNER: Footnote 43 -- paragraph 93 is, with footnote 43, is
Page 23985
1 headed "Mitar Kovac and Bozidar Forca," which is the name of the book.
2 Page 145. What -- what we have up there is page 145 of that book. I
3 accept entirely if the General says he made an error.
4 Can we look, finally, and then we can move onto something else
5 eventually at the -- I've now got no document up in front of me on the
6 screen. Thank you.
7 In the same book, please, sorry. We need to back to the report.
8 Could we go back to the report for a moment, please. Oh, no, let's stick
9 to the book.
10 Can we go to page --
11 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise, but our LiveNote is
12 not functioning.
13 JUDGE HALL: I am aware of that, Mr. Krgovic. I assume it's in
14 the process of being repaired.
15 MS. KORNER: Finally on this, can we look paragraph -- page --
16 this comes out of footnote 188 but I want to stick to the book so we
17 don't ... footnote 88. Yes.
18 Q. You've footnoted the book again at footnote 88, which is
19 paragraph 186.
20 MS. KORNER: But can we go to page -- it's page 146, so it's the
21 following page in the book. And it's the following page in English.
22 As we'll see in a moment, when we go back, you say -- you quote
23 from the book and it's a direct quote we'll see: "The highest element of
24 military control or strategic control (direction of war) was a country's
25 president (king or emperor) ..."
Page 23986
1 Correct?
2 A. That's correct.
3 Q. And this section of the book, if we just go back again, actually
4 deals with the period from 1920 to 1945, doesn't it, of the history of
5 the military?
6 A. No, Ms. Korner. I think that it deals with the period up until
7 the year 2000.
8 Q. Yes. But this section of the book - can we go from -- from which
9 this is taken. Can we go to the third page in English. I don't know
10 whether you've got the book with you. And it's the second page in B/C/S,
11 talks about the military in the period from 1920 to 1945, which is
12 presumably why we get the words "(king or emperor)," in brackets.
13 Doesn't it?
14 A. I agree with.
15 Q. Right. Now, can we have a look at your report, please, at
16 paragraph 186.
17 A. In my report, Ms. Korner, I think I quoted it properly but it has
18 to do with a fact which did not change from one historical period to
19 another. The highest element of military control was always the
20 president of the state.
21 Q. If we look at paragraph 186, that's your quote. You cut out the
22 words "king and emperor," didn't you, not surprisingly, in parentheses?
23 A. Yes, Ms. Korner. Because my emphasis was on the president of the
24 state. Therefore, I allow that perhaps I should not have done this. Or
25 that this was not the right thing with a view to the authors of this
Page 23987
1 book. But my intention was to emphasise the role of the president of the
2 state.
3 Q. Well, then, I'm sorry, the real question that I want to ask you -
4 and accepting that you cut out king or emperor and whether that's right
5 or wrong - why you used a book that was talking about the military in
6 1920 to 1945 as opposed to a specific book or document that referred to
7 the VRS? Because, again, you're talking about the VRS there.
8 A. Ms. Korner, I talk about the function of the president of the
9 state as a general function here. Therefore, I used a book which was the
10 most easily available to me. I have it in my own files, and I'm telling
11 you that this has to do with the function of the president of the state.
12 That was what I wanted to clarify, whether it was with a view of the
13 Army of Republika Srpska or any other army.
14 Q. All right. Let's leave your footnotes. Let's leave the
15 generalities of your report and look at the specific assertions that you
16 make in it.
17 Can we go to the introduction, please, of your report.
18 In paragraph 2, you make a number of assertions. You say:
19 [As read] "At the beginning of the conflict, the armed forces" -
20 in which you do include the police, you say - "(the army, the police and
21 the Territorial Defence) of the state and/or the conflicting parties had
22 no formulated conceptual or doctrinal views on defence and armed
23 combat ...," et cetera.
24 On what do you base that assertion? What is your source for that
25 assertion?
Page 23988
1 A. Well, I considered the fact that there was a lack of legal
2 regulations, a lack of documents with concepts such as the strategy of
3 defence of a country, and a lack of well-developed rules and regulations
4 in the area of defence in that time-period.
5 Q. How do you know that the conflicting parties - I'll come back to
6 that in a moment - had no formulated conceptual or doctrinal views on
7 defence?
8 A. Well, I had at my disposal the Law on Defence. I was familiar
9 with the situation on the ground. I talked to a number of my colleagues
10 from other armies, because, as the commander of the academy, I had an
11 opportunity to travel after the war. I travelled to Macedonia, Croatia,
12 Slovenia, and Bosnia and Herzegovina.
13 Q. Right. So you're saying this is the result of your chats during,
14 as you said earlier, conferences and meetings with officers from other
15 armies; is that right?
16 A. Ms. Korner, this isn't all I state, in terms of sources. And
17 those weren't chats, but serious conversations. They took place after
18 the war. I have already mentioned numerous analyses and the experience
19 from the Military Academy with regard to previous wars. All these were
20 synthesized into this conclusion by me, showing that, at the beginning of
21 the war, the laws and regulations from the former Yugoslavia were
22 applied.
23 Q. Which analyses? You don't specify what you're talking about.
24 Are you able to tell us which you relied on? And the answer is yes or
25 no, please.
Page 23989
1 A. I have told you that these analyses were made in the framework of
2 the Military Academy. I was in charge of some, and directly involved in
3 others contributing to the analyses.
4 Q. Are you able to give us the name of a -- any one analysis on
5 which you relied for this section of your report?
6 A. These textbooks and materials exist somewhere in our army, but I
7 didn't copy from those analyses, and that's why I do not cite them here,
8 Ms. Korner. Instead, I included the insight and experience that I came
9 by personally. We have seen here the Law on Defence which wasn't in
10 existence at the beginning in Bosnia-Herzegovina.
11 Q. Right. Have you ever made a study of the HVO? Analysed the
12 workings of the HVO.
13 A. That is a subject of research at the Military Academy, too.
14 Q. Yes. Have you, General, ever studied, analysed, the documents
15 relating to the HVO.
16 A. Ms. Korner, I've told you that I took part in these analyses.
17 Every participant gets an assignment. One is to analyse the HVO, another
18 the Slovenian army, yet another the BH army, and so on. And these are
19 the things that were analysed. I was involved, but I personally did not
20 research the functioning of the HVO.
21 Q. All right. Did you personally research the functioning of the
22 ABiH?
23 A. Ms. Korner, I have stated that these army did not have proper
24 rules and regulations, and I still stand by that assertion.
25 Q. No, please answer the question. And I don't know -- Mr. Krgovic
Page 23990
1 obviously told you you had to called me Ms. Korner every time you answer.
2 You don't.
3 Can you just tell me, please, did you personally research the
4 functioning of the ABiH?
5 A. Ms. Korner, I apologise if -- for mentioning your name.
6 I was in the position to see numerous documents of the BH army,
7 and the notion of research is very broad. It's a serious business. And
8 I can only repeat that I stand by my assertions.
9 Q. All right. Let's move on.
10 It's right, isn't it, that the JNA was not a standing army? In
11 other words, it had a small professional group of officers which were
12 reinforced, if necessary, by the -- the -- the TO?
13 A. Ms. Korner, the Yugoslav People's Army is an institution. It's a
14 whole, whereas the Territorial Defence is another institution, a
15 different whole. These two institutions together made up the armed
16 forces of the former Yugoslavia. The JNA had a foundation of
17 professionals, and there were also conscripts serving their compulsory
18 military service. Young men from the age of 18 till 27. The duration of
19 their military service varied.
20 The Territorial Defence consisted exclusively of the reserve
21 forces, including reserve officers. Those were people who, upon
22 completion of their military service, are transferred to the reserve
23 force.
24 Q. All right. Is the answer to my question that there was no
25 standing army, as, for example, as you studied all the other armies in
Page 23991
1 the world, the British Army, or the American Army? It was not a standing
2 army?
3 A. I don't know what you mean when you say "standing army."
4 It was a regular army. The only regular army in the
5 then-Yugoslavia. I told you of what it consisted, and it was deployed
6 throughout the territory of Yugoslavia, based on organisational --
7 Q. [Previous translation continued] ... All right, all right, all
8 right. Yes.
9 A. -- decisions and enactments.
10 Q. Thank you very much. Because the reason I'm asking you that is
11 because, let's go to the next part of this paragraph, where you say: "In
12 conditions of war and armed combat, these documents were applied to the
13 military and police forces, which consisted of mobilised people (only 3
14 per cent were professionals) ..."
15 Where did you get that figure from?
16 A. I believe I took that figure from an analysis of the combat
17 readiness of the VRS, if I remember correctly. But I'm familiar with
18 that fact, that most of the force was actually the reserve force in the
19 army then.
20 Q. No. You say specifically: "... (only 3 per cent ...)"
21 So I will ask you to look at the analysis of combat readiness,
22 which is P1781, tab 82.
23 And can we have up, please, in English page 79, and in B/C/S,
24 page 71, I believe.
25 And let's just concentrate on the 1st Krajina Corps, because
Page 23992
1 that's what your report was supposed to be concentrating on, isn't it,
2 General?
3 A. No, Ms. Korner.
4 Q. All right. We'll come to the bit that seems to suggest it is.
5 Let's look at the 1st Krajina Corps.
6 [As read] "Of the 4.054 officer establishment posts, 2.373 or 59
7 per cent are filled with officers of whom 398 or 17 per cent are active
8 officers and of the 2.949 non-commissioned officer establishment posts or
9 4.000 or 154 non-commissioned officers," in fact, over, "of whom 217 or
10 5 per cent are active non-commissioned officers?"
11 Is this a document you had before, before you wrote your report?
12 Let's just check your bibliography. Because I'll invite you, General, to
13 tell me where you see anything like the 3 per cent figure.
14 A. Ms. Korner, I would have to read the entire analysis now to find
15 that bit of information.
16 But I would like to point out the following. One corps is not a
17 reliable measure because that corps was certainly the best manned.
18 Furthermore, this is about manning, and I spoke about something else;
19 namely, that, of the overall force of the VRS, only 3 per cent were
20 professionals.
21 Q. I tell you what, you can have this -- because we're going to
22 adjourn quite soon. You can take it with you. I'm perfectly happy to go
23 through all the other corps, or for you to go through all the other corps
24 as listed, and tell us anywhere where you see that figure of 3 per cent.
25 You -- you go on to say in -- let's go back to your report. I'll
Page 23993
1 invite you to take that document back with you. We'll give you a copy,
2 or I'm sure Mr. Krgovic can provide you with a copy.
3 MR. KRGOVIC: I'm not sure is it translation issue, but what
4 Ms. Korner quoted is percentage of total numbers of officer in the corps.
5 It's quite different from what is said in this document.
6 [Interpretation] This is about the manning of establishment
7 posts. Which means officers.
8 MS. KORNER: [Previous translation continued] ... It doesn't
9 actually, with the greatest -- oh, you mean his report does.
10 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] No, this here.
11 MS. KORNER: [Overlapping speakers]... please. This report I
12 have just read out: 59 per cent are filled with officers, of whom 39 are
13 active officers, non-commissioned officers.
14 Q. Now, in any event, in order to prevent this sort of argument,
15 because this is not footnoted again, General, you take away this report
16 with you. Mr. Krgovic will give you a copy of the B/C/S. And you can
17 have a look and tell us where you got that 3 per cent figure from.
18 Now, let's go on. You say: "Who had a very low level of
19 discipline."
20 Again, unfootnoted. Where do you get that assertion from?
21 A. I believe this information can also be found in the analysis of
22 the combat readiness of the VRS.
23 Q. Why didn't you footnote this at the time?
24 A. I do not remember why I didn't. I think this is a qualification
25 or a fact that was around at the time. Because I personally was in a
Page 23994
1 position to witness the very outset of combat activities and the madness
2 of the war which was characterised by lack of discipline.
3 Q. General, you told us, whenever it was, that you left Bosnia on
4 the 10th of May, before the formation of the VRS. You witnessed nothing
5 of combat activities of the VRS, did you?
6 A. I wasn't an eye-witness, but I knew what the situation in the VRS
7 was from many reports and conversations with individuals.
8 Q. You did not read - we went through that; I think it was last
9 Friday - or see any of the VRS combat reports or any of that at the
10 period, did you? Or, indeed, even now, until you came here.
11 A. Ms. Korner, I really cannot remember what I stated on Friday with
12 regard to that. But I know that I found this information in the analysis
13 of combat readiness, and I stand by it.
14 Q. "Untrained and inexperienced commanding officers."
15 Where did you find that?
16 A. Ms. Korner, I know of the practice that prevailed in the early
17 days of the war that reserve officers were appointed to some positions
18 because of the shortage of active-duty officers. And, finally, none of
19 the active-duty officers were really trained for such a war because the
20 entire training of the former army was -- or, rather, focussed on
21 combatting an external enemy rather than an internal enemy or civil war.
22 Q. We're talking about the VRS now. Nothing else. Were you aware
23 that General Talic and most of his corps command had served in combat
24 operations in 1991, in Croatia?
25 A. Ms. Korner, I know that they took part in combat operations. But
Page 23995
1 I'm saying that participation in a war is not illegal. It's something
2 that's allowed.
3 Q. No, no. You've told us -- I'm sorry, you told us. You said in
4 your report that they were untrained and inexperienced officers. I'll
5 come to other officers later. But General Talic and those in his command
6 were experienced JNA officers, weren't they?
7 A. I personally know that I was not trained, and I am saying that
8 most officers and soldiers were not trained for this type of war.
9 Because this wasn't included in the training programme.
10 You cannot say that you have significant combat experience if you
11 fought for a couple of days.
12 Q. But, look, I'm so sorry. You are saying these were untrained and
13 inexperienced commanding officers. What I'm putting to you is, that not
14 only were General Talic and his corps command all ex-JNA officers, but
15 all highly experienced officers who had additionally served in combat in
16 Western Slavonia during the course of 1991.
17 Do you accept that?
18 A. Ms. Korner, in my report, I gave a general qualification by which
19 I still stand. Even today, I say that most of the personnel at the time
20 was inexperienced and insufficiently trained for the war.
21 Q. But how do you know, General? You simply don't. You weren't
22 there. You're wrong, are you, in what you say about, certainly, the
23 1ST Krajina Corps? Positively wrong.
24 A. Ms. Korner, I'm not wrong. I am an experienced officer with the
25 highest military rank. I know for sure that if they had all been well
Page 23996
1 trained, that there wouldn't have been so many problems and so many cases
2 of violation of the international law of war.
3 Q. All right. I'll come back to that in a minute.
4 Can I just ask you this -- I'll come back to that tomorrow.
5 Do you know Colonel Arsic of the 33rd Motorised Brigade?
6 A. I don't know him personally. I don't remember.
7 Q. So you don't know that he was, again, an experienced JNA officer,
8 who had also served in Croatia?
9 A. Well, I don't know the man, so I cannot speak about him.
10 Q. What about Lieutenant-Colonel Peulic, in charge of OG Vlasic, of
11 the 122nd Light Infantry Brigade. We looked at some of his documents.
12 Did you know him? Or of him?
13 A. Ms. Korner, by way of introduction in this paragraph, I stated
14 some general characteristics of the situation on the ground at the time.
15 I did so in order to arrive at specific suggestions as to how the use of
16 the police in combat activities should be viewed. It is difficult for me
17 to comment on the training level of any specific individuals. I was
18 speaking in general terms about the situation in the army at the time.
19 Q. Did you know about Colonel - as he then was - Galic?
20 JUDGE HALL: Ms. Korner, it's past.
21 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, may I -- I'd like to finish this topic,
22 but -- all right.
23 JUDGE HALL: Yes.
24 So we take the adjournment, and I believe we're in Courtroom II
25 tomorrow morning.
Page 23997
1 MS. KORNER: Right. Your Honours. We've got a copy in case
2 Mr. Krgovic didn't have, of the -- well, anyhow, he can have it now.
3 JUDGE HALL: So the usher can pass it to him.
4 MS. KORNER: No, no, it's for the witness. Sorry.
5 [The witness stands down]
6 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.47 p.m.,
7 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 13th day of
8 September, 2011, at 9.00 a.m.
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