111114ED

Page 25704

1 A. I have already explained that wherever there was activity of

2 military nature, there was the military and -- was in charge of these

3 activities. There was subordination in place, according to which all

4 forces, no matter who, were resubordinated to the police.

5 Q. I accept that --

6 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: To the army.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Nobody had an -- was at an equal

8 footing with the army. You are presenting it as if it were a tea party

9 or something. No, it was about obeying orders.

10 Q. I accept entirely that in combat action where the police and the

11 army were actually fighting, then it was the army who had control. But

12 in other circumstances, sir, and I suggest the special police are part of

13 those circumstances, they were, in fact, separate though acting together

14 in a common cause?

15 Would you agree that? And you can simply say no, if you don't.

16 A. I disagree with that.

17 Q. All right. Let's move on then, please.

18 And let's go back to the topic I was dealing with on Friday;

19 namely, who was in charge of this unit.

20 Could you have a look now, please, at 65 ter 10647. Document

21 number 12.

22 This is dated the 22nd of May, 1992. It's addressed to the

23 chief. And we need to go to the second page in English. Somebody called

24 Mr. Dusan Rokvic was proposing these people. And do we see there that it

25 was approved by the chief of the centre, Stojan Zupljanin?

Page 25705

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. If Mr. Zupljanin was no more than a paymaster for this force, why

3 would anybody bother to get his approval for who went into the platoon?

4 Into the special police. Sorry.

5 A. This document basically has nothing to do with the special

6 police. This was drafted for the following reason: People were to be

7 employed as police officers. These people were refugees. I think that

8 this man, Tutoric, was a police officer in Croatia. They were refugees

9 from the Croatian part so it was normal for them to be received into

10 service at the CSB.

11 Milan Tutoric was platoon commander and they stayed together.

12 Only salaries were taken care of directly. It was about their future

13 status. They were supposed to be active-duty police officers. This has

14 nothing to do with the others. This doesn't even account for 10 per cent

15 of the personnel because we see the number of people. There are nine on

16 the list. This is what I was talking about. They were admitted to the

17 police as active-duty police officers because they had been police

18 officers wherever they had fled from, Croatia or someplace. So this was

19 basically a humane act of a social nature.

20 Q. Well, the actual question was nothing do with -- I'm going to

21 show you exactly why these men are, in fact, members of the special

22 police. But the question, sir, which you just didn't answer, is why, if

23 this is a military unit under the control of Colonel Stevilovic and the

24 military, Stojan Zupljanin's approval should be needed to put these men

25 into the special police?

Page 25706

1 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I kindly ask

2 Ms. Korner to show where this document states what she is saying that it

3 states.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is a misinterpretation.

5 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Krgovic, on the face of it, that is what the

6 document suggests, and Ms. Korner is putting to him what the document

7 seems to say. I -- I -- I'm not sure I follow your objection.

8 MS. KORNER:

9 Q. Right. Sir, can you answer the question, please.

10 Why should Stojan Zupljanin, who you say has no authority over

11 the special police, be authorising people to go into the special police?

12 A. Obviously you don't have a good translation.

13 This reads:

14 "I propose that employees be admitted to permanent employment who

15 are members of the special police detachment with the Banja Luka CSB."

16 So they are already there. He is taking people from the military

17 establishment upon the proposal of Dusan Rokvic. This is very different

18 from a unit that was -- did not have this status. If everybody had

19 permanent employment with the centre, then this document would not be

20 necessary. This document shows that this was a formality and that people

21 submitted applications to be transferred to the -- to permanent -- to a

22 permanent post with CSB Banja Luka. This was taking over people from the

23 detachment to the Banja Luka CSB, as active-duty members.

24 The detachment had a total strength of 150 or 160 men. And this

25 is only about nine.

Page 25707

1 By the way, I listened to those tapes and I found a number of

2 wrong -- wrong interpretations --

3 Q. No, no, don't go off -- do not go off on a tangent, please.

4 Forget the tapes. I have a lot to get through with you today, so you

5 forget the tapes until I go back to them myself.

6 Now, do you accept, do you agree, therefore, that these nine men

7 were, in fact, members of the special police and apparently remained in

8 the special police until certainly after July?

9 A. I accept that they were special police members. That is, members

10 of the special unit. But also that they got permanent employment with

11 the Banja Luka centre. The -- these are two different statuses, as

12 different from the other members of the detachment.

13 Q. All right.

14 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, may I ask that this document be marked

15 and admitted.

16 JUDGE HALL: Yes, but before we do that, may I suggest that the

17 witness be invited to read the word at the -- at the head of the

18 signature block in which Mr. Zupljanin's signature appears and see how it

19 is interpreted. Because I'm bearing in mind Mr. Krgovic's objection and

20 the witness's answer or explanation up to this point.

21 MS. KORNER: Sorry, Your Honour --

22 JUDGE HALL: The word beginning with S at the head of the

23 signature block --

24 MS. KORNER: Oh, I see, yes.

25 JUDGE HALL: Yes.

Page 25708

1 MS. KORNER:

2 Q. Could you read, please, just so we can get a translation, after

3 the -- the word that begins with S there.

4 A. I don't know what this word means.

5 Q. Just read it, please. Just read it.

6 A. In block letters it says "Stojan Zupljanin" and there's

7 somebody's initials above it. Whose initials these are, I really don't

8 know.

9 Q. Read, please, not the name Stojan Zupljanin but the word that you

10 can see in capital letters.

11 A. It says "saglasan nacelnik centra."

12 THE INTERPRETER: Which interpreted means approved, or in

13 agreement, chief of centre.

14 MS. KORNER:

15 Q. Thank you.

16 JUDGE HALL: Thank you. The document is admitted and marked.

17 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P2409, Your Honours.

18 MS. KORNER:

19 Q. Have a look next, please, at -- well, yes. We'll just confirm

20 this.

21 Document 65 ter 20333, at tab 54. Oh, sorry, 20323.

22 List of members of the special police detachment, the Banja Luka

23 Security Services Centre. Go, please, to the third page in English, and

24 I believe it's the same page in B/C/S.

25 A. May I have the original or the hard copy? Because I find it a

Page 25709

1 bit tiring to sit like this leaning forward.

2 Q. Well, I'm very sorry, but we don't have hard copy -- unless

3 Mr. Krgovic can give you his copy.

4 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. I have the hard

5 copy of the Prosecution evidence. Therefore, we can give it to --

6 MS. KORNER: Unmarked. Not if it's marked.

7 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] -- to the witness.

8 MS. KORNER: I haven't got time to check it. I'm just going to

9 take Mr. Krgovic's word.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Which number?

11 MS. KORNER:

12 Q. 54. Turn to the third page, you'll see the 5th Platoon.

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. All the men on that list were in the 5th Platoon, were they not,

15 of the special police? And were still there because we can see this must

16 have been, although it's not a dated document, if you go to the

17 penultimate page, you will see that there's a list of people who had been

18 deleted after the 31st of July.

19 MS. KORNER: Sorry, can we go to page 4 in English. Yes.

20 Somebody's done it.

21 Your Honours, I'm going to be coming back to this list on a

22 number of occasions so I wonder if it could be marked and admitted at

23 this stage. I just wanted to confirm that.

24 JUDGE HALL: There doesn't seem to be any objection. Admitted

25 and marked.

Page 25710

1 MS. KORNER: Thank you.

2 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P2410, Your Honours.

3 MS. KORNER: Next, please, can we look at document which is at

4 65 ter 2733, tab 15A.

5 Q. Dated 25th June, addressed to Stojan Zupljanin, and it's a

6 request from Mr. Novakovic of the Petrovac Municipal Assembly

7 Crisis Staff to Mr. Zupljanin, do you agree, asking for him to send a

8 special purposes police detachment to Krupa?

9 A. Which number is it in your bundle?

10 Q. 15A. Have a look at the screen, please.

11 A. I can't find this particular one under 15A.

12 Q. Right. Well, just look --

13 A. Yes, yes, I have found it. It's 15. I can't believe it.

14 There's no 15A here. The last one that I can see is 7A, then

15 12A.

16 Q. All right --

17 A. But I'll do my best to read from the screen provided it's

18 enlarged.

19 MS. KORNER: Can we enlarge the left-hand side, please.

20 Q. Do you accept that this is a request to Mr. Zupljanin from

21 Mr. Novakovic in Petrovac to send a special purposes police detachment?

22 A. It reads here that the Ministry of the Interior is sending this

23 to Mr. Stojan Zupljanin personally. But I don't see that this document

24 was actually received nor that anyone had been assigned to undertake

25 these tasks. Normally once an assignation is made, then the name of the

Page 25711

1 person who is going to implement this is specified.

2 Q. Yes. That is not the purpose of -- of this document, nor the

3 question, as you well understand, sir.

4 This document reflects, does it not, the reality that

5 Stojan Zupljanin organised, set up, and was in charge of the special

6 police?

7 A. It only says here that a request was sent to him. As for

8 everything else that you have put into it, it's how you read it. This

9 document states that only a request was sent to Mr. Zupljanin and that he

10 didn't assign this to any particular person.

11 So I don't see any of his instructions concerning this document.

12 And this actually is up to the person who is the author of this document.

13 I don't know if the title is correct. I don't know whether there was the

14 Ministry of the Interior of the Krajina at the time.

15 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, may I ask that this document be

16 admitted and marked, please.

17 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have an objection.

18 First of all, Bosanski Petrovac municipality is not covered by

19 the indictment. Therefore, it goes beyond the indictment framework.

20 Secondly, this document was disclosed to us only after this

21 witness came here to testify, and we didn't have an opportunity to see

22 this document before. It falls into the category of what we call

23 typically new evidence that is not on the 65 ter list, and we couldn't

24 find it anywhere in the reports, whether it was, indeed, disclosed to us,

25 and, if it was, when that was.

Page 25712

1 Talking about the Prosecution 65 ter list.

2 JUDGE HALL: Ms. Korner, apart from the objections voiced by

3 Mr. Krgovic, in terms of relevance, inasmuch as this is addressed to

4 Mr. Zupljanin rather than emanating from him, why should it be admitted?

5 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, first of all, we're checking on

6 whether it was disclosed.

7 Second, not until this witness turned up last week did anybody

8 ever suggest to any witness that the whole of the special police was not

9 a special police force at all, but a military force run and controlled by

10 Colonel Stevilovic.

11 It was disclosed - interrupting myself - on the 12th of February,

12 2009. Obviously because it was Zupljanin. We can't help it if their

13 records are not that accurate.

14 And, thirdly, this is one of a series of documents which, in our

15 submission, shows that what the witness is saying is putting at its

16 lowest unreliable. It goes entirely to the credit of the assertions he

17 has made.

18 [Trial Chamber confers]

19 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Witness, we would remind you that we indicated

20 last week that if you at any point prefer to stand, you are free to do

21 so.

22 I'm reminding you that if you prefer to stand at any point during

23 your testimony -- sorry.

24 I'm -- just in the event that you missed a part of what I said,

25 you may stand at any point during your testimony if you find that more

Page 25713

1 comfortable.

2 Returning to the application to tender this document, the

3 document is admitted and marked.

4 MS. KORNER: Now can we look, please, at P1091, document 23.

5 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

6 MS. KORNER:

7 Q. This is part of the saga --

8 JUDGE HALL: Just a moment.

9 MS. KORNER: Oh, sorry, Your Honours.

10 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

11 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 65 ter 2733 is admitted as

12 Exhibit P2411. Thank you.

13 MS. KORNER: Thank you.

14 Q. This is part of the saga, sir, that you touched upon when you

15 looked at the list of complaints against members of the special police.

16 And this is a document in which Stojan Zupljanin tries to order the --

17 the SJB to release two members of the special detachment.

18 Do you agree?

19 A. This document was sent shortly before I had contact with

20 Mr. Tutus.

21 Q. That may be so, sir. But do you agree, on the face of it, this

22 is Stojan Zupljanin trying to order the SJB to release two members of the

23 special detachment who have committed, apparently, crimes?

24 A. Well, I wouldn't call it crimes. This was criminal activity and

25 the suspicion was that it involved unauthorised appropriation of vehicles

Page 25714

1 and that was the reason for bringing those people into custody. Due to

2 that situation and the poor information that the special unit had,

3 certain reactions were provoked and requests were made for those people

4 to be released because it was believed that that was the standard

5 skirmishes that people had with the police when they went in and out of

6 pubs. And they believed that this was the way to reach an agreement with

7 those people, provided there is no danger of their flight, to release

8 them, on condition that they come back for additional interviews --

9 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Witness, could you please answer the question

10 put to you.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The question was whether this was a

12 request for those people to be released. One can see from it here that

13 it was. And that they were obliged to report on their own, in order for

14 the proceedings to go on.

15 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.

16 MS. KORNER:

17 Q. If these were members of the military, as you suggest, why wasn't

18 it Colonel Stevilovic or somebody from the 1st Krajina Corps command

19 asking for the release?

20 A. This is only logical for the centre chief to ask something from

21 the SJB chief. However, Stevilovic couldn't order the chief of the SJB

22 to do something. He had Stojan Zupljanin above him. This is a normal

23 standard letter. And when I went to see Mr. Tutus, I thought that there

24 was good reason for them to remain in custody. I don't see any problem

25 with that.

Page 25715

1 Q. Sir, take it from me that we've seen in this case evidence of the

2 military writing to the police or the courts asking for the release. The

3 only reason that Stojan Zupljanin was the man asking or ordering the

4 release was because these were police officers under his command and

5 control.

6 That's the situation, isn't it?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Let's have a look, please, now at the document you will find at

9 number 10 in your bundle.

10 MS. KORNER: P367.

11 Q. This is a document dated the 20th of May but it's -- it's the

12 minutes of the meeting held on the 6th of May of 1992. And a copy,

13 apparently, goes to your chief, Mr. Kesic, apart from anybody else.

14 Did you -- did he discuss this meeting with you at all?

15 A. I can't talk about this meeting. You are giving me a document

16 that I haven't read before, and I need some time to look what it is --

17 and see what it is all about.

18 Q. Yes, well, I just want to --

19 A. Banja Luka, Gradiska, Grahovo ...

20 Q. Yes. Well, you just go to the very end, please. Item number --

21 agenda number -- item number 3 on the agenda.

22 The chief of the CSB, Stojan Zupljanin informed the members of

23 the centre council that he had established a special counter-sabotage and

24 counter-terrorist police unit about -- of about 150 to be deployed in

25 those regions in the most complex security operations. The unit is made

Page 25716

1 up of both active and reserve police and persons who fought on the

2 Western Slavonia battle-fronts.

3 So is it your contention that Stojan Zupljanin is lying to the

4 assembled police who he has called for this meeting when he says he has

5 set up a special unit?

6 A. Well, I presume that this was more him boasting about this. He

7 couldn't have set up a detachment because it had to be done based on a

8 decision from higher authorities. He probably had a pivotal role in it

9 but the setting up of the detachment itself had to be based on a decision

10 taken by an assembly or the local government or whatever. As far as I

11 know, the centre chief never had these kind of powers to set up such

12 formations personally. He probably put it figuratively, "I set up," in

13 order to boost his rating among other chiefs.

14 Q. Well, he certainly couldn't set up, could he, a unit of special

15 police without authority from the minister.

16 A. According to the rules and regulations, somebody has to take a

17 decision at a certain level. I suppose whether it was minister or the

18 government. But I think that it was primarily the government or the

19 assembly. And when this decision was taken, I think it was taken by the

20 government or the assembly. That's what the law says. I don't think

21 that any individual, unless they have a proper decision from higher

22 authority, can do that.

23 Q. Right. Leaving aside that we've all seen that the ARK Assembly

24 made a decision to set it up, Stojan Zupljanin himself personally could

25 not have hired people or paid them without being authorised by the

Page 25717

1 minister of the interior, could he?

2 A. I don't know how this situation and how these issues were

3 resolved in Krajina. You are asking me a leading question. Maybe you

4 can ask me if I knew how it was resolved.

5 Q. I'm asking --

6 A. However, you can easily find in the law who is authorised to

7 issue this kind of decision.

8 Q. I am asking you, as a senior police officer of some 30 years'

9 experience in the police, whether the minister would have to authorise

10 the payment and recruitment of personnel for a special police unit. And

11 if you don't know, then say so.

12 A. I think that there should be or must be some additional decision

13 only I don't know issued by whom. That's my assumption that it had to be

14 based on a decision, on an order that came from a higher level.

15 Q. All right. And what about the words "the unit is made up of both

16 active and reserve policemen and persons who fought on the Western

17 Slavonia battle-fronts"?

18 A. It's a statement.

19 Q. The bulk of this unit was made up, was it not, of active or

20 reserve police, not, as you say, military personnel?

21 A. It's quite the opposite. The majority of the men were military.

22 Q. All right.

23 A. And I already said that.

24 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...

25 A. And this can be checked from personnel files.

Page 25718

1 Q. Right. Let's now go, please, jump forward because I'm still

2 dealing with the same topic, this was Stojan Zupljanin's unit, in the

3 sense that he was in command and control.

4 MS. KORNER: Can we look now at the ending of it, at 1D00176 --

5 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Is that a question, what Ms. Korner

6 has just said? Or is Ms. Korner testifying?

7 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, my suggestion throughout - that's why

8 I'm going through this rather tedious exercise - is that this is

9 Mr. Stojan Zupljanin's unit. And that is the topic I'm dealing with.

10 Q. Look, please, at 1D00176, document 27A.

11 This is the order of the 27th of July from Mico Stanisic, who

12 repeats in paragraph 2 that in accordance with his earlier order of the

13 23rd of July, "I hereby order immediately to remove," underlined, "from

14 the minister of interior individuals who have been held criminally

15 responsible for crimes."

16 I'm emphasising that for a reason we'll see in a moment.

17 Then item -- paragraph 4:

18 "Immediately disband and place under the command of the army of

19 the Serbian Republic all special units formed during the war in areas of

20 Security Services Centres."

21 Now, if, as you say, let's just concentrate on Banja Luka CSB,

22 the unit there, whatever it was called, was actually under the control of

23 the army, what was the purpose of Mico Stanisic ordering the disbandment

24 of the unit who should then be handed over to the army?

25 A. Obviously he was acting in accordance with an order issued on the

Page 25719

1 28th of July, or the 23rd of July. He is citing someone's order. And he

2 is issuing an order to have this order carried out. And he says that the

3 CSB is to participate in carrying out this order. I wish to add that in

4 mid-July that unit has already been disbanded. The people were receiving

5 pay but they had military billeting and military food. They had

6 no more --

7 Q. No, no, don't offer that. I'm going to deal with when they were

8 disbanded. Just, please, as His Honour Judge Delvoie asked you, answer

9 the question that you are asked.

10 If the CSB special police were, in fact, members of the military

11 and not police at all, then what was the purpose of Mico Stanisic issuing

12 this order?

13 A. As I have already said, the government or the Assembly of

14 Republika Srpska took a decision to disband all units that were not a

15 part of the army. This meant all of them. They were seen as some kind

16 of paramilitary formations.

17 In order to carry this out in the field, all organs of authority

18 in the field had to take part. Military police and so on. It's logical

19 that the police receive an order from the government through the

20 minister. It is also logical that military orders go down the military

21 line of command.

22 Q. Yes. You see I think you've -- I don't think you meant to, but

23 you have, in fact, made the point. The government took the decision to

24 disband all units that were not part of the army. And the CSB special

25 police in Banja Luka were not part of the army, were they?

Page 25720

1 A. It was a part of the army. But its situation was specific. It

2 was not a part of the establishment. Formally it was with the centre but

3 actually was carrying out military orders. We were different from

4 paramilitary organisations in other areas. It was actually under the

5 command of military persons.

6 Q. All right. Look next, please, at P631, which is at 32.

7 This is a report on the inspection of the CSB, and done by

8 two inspectors who you met, as we'll see. Or one of them at least.

9 If we look at the last page, Mr. Gajic and Mr. Mirosavic.

10 5th of August.

11 I don't know whether you were present at the meeting of the -- or

12 the period they were there between the 2nd and the 4th of August, were

13 you?

14 A. I cannot recall whether I was present. Obviously this is a

15 report written by someone. I do not see who the authors are here.

16 Q. All right. I don't think it matters.

17 MS. KORNER: Go back, please, to the second page.

18 Q. Do you see there the discussion about - I think it's in the first

19 paragraph - the minister's order that we've just looked at. And

20 Stojan Zupljanin wanting to know what the word "remove" means.

21 Do you see that?

22 A. Where is it precisely?

23 Q. Second page in your language, first paragraph. If you look at it

24 on the screen, you'll be able to see it straight away.

25 A. Page 2? The first paragraph is it?

Page 25721

1 Q. Begins "medjutim."

2 A. Ah, the first one. Okay.

3 Q. Sir, we'll get on a lot quicker, and you'll be here a lot less

4 longer if you actually look at the documents on the screen where they can

5 be highlighted for you.

6 Now, do you see there he is querying, what "remove" means?

7 A. What it says is it's the only measure that we could have taken,

8 and that was to remove them from the unit, from the war schedule, or

9 either we could process them through military courts or the civilian

10 organs.

11 Now this is something else that I have here.

12 Q. All right. I don't --

13 A. A report and another report.

14 Q. I'll tell you what, sir, you read to yourself just -- you just --

15 I don't know what you're looking at. If you look at the screen, then we

16 will all be on the same page. Kindly have a look at the screen.

17 MS. KORNER: Can we highlight, please -- no, not the first

18 paragraph anymore. Can we highlight the next paragraph.

19 Q. I want you to read that, sir, either on the screen, or in -- in

20 the -- in the bundle that you've got. The paragraph that begins:

21 "Since the beginning of the war ..."

22 Just read that to yourself, please.

23 A. I have finished reading.

24 Q. Right. Stojan Zupljanin and his officers, whoever were with him,

25 are objecting, aren't they, to any idea that the CSB police, special

Page 25722

1 police, should be disbanded?

2 A. I know that such discussions did take place and that many people

3 from the command, from the unit, were against disbanding these units. I

4 remember this. It was at some meeting or other. I know for a fact that

5 it was agreed that the unit should be disbanded, and I was in favour of

6 it.

7 Practically, it was an undefined unit. It was neither here nor

8 there. It was under the control of the military, but we were financing

9 it. And there were certain problems with this.

10 Q. Just stop, please.

11 Do you agree - that's all my question was - that Stojan Zupljanin

12 and, as it's put, "his associates" were objecting to disbanding the

13 special police?

14 A. If it was, they were probably -- probably objected to it.

15 Q. No. From what you have read of this inspectors' report, were

16 Stojan Zupljanin and his associates objecting to the disbanding of the

17 special police?

18 A. It says that what they said was, in fact, all positive. It had

19 some positive activities and that a number of criminal procedures against

20 these workers were suspended who had not been disciplined. It says that

21 most of those who took part in the discussion believed that the

22 Republika Srpska Assembly was -- request was unfounded. Regardless of

23 this, the unit was disbanded.

24 Q. Yes. Never mind that. I'll try one last time, and I have a

25 reason for asking you this.

Page 25723

1 Do you agree that Stojan Zupljanin and his associates, according

2 to this report, did not want the unit disbanded?

3 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I object to this line

4 of questioning.

5 The witness is asked to interpret this document and it's a

6 meeting that he did not attend. If the Prosecutor wants him to answer,

7 he should be asked to interpret this document and she should not suggest

8 what -- something that is not in this document.

9 JUDGE HALL: As I understand the question, Mr. Krgovic, it is --

10 on the one hand, there is this document and its import; and, on the other

11 is the thrust of the witness's testimony. And the question invites him

12 to --

13 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I'll come -- can I help? I'll come

14 directly to what he said.

15 JUDGE HALL: Thanks, Ms. Korner.

16 MS. KORNER: I think that's the simplest thing.

17 Q. You see, you told the Court at page 25459 of the transcript,

18 which was last Wednesday, the question was -- it says there was some --

19 just listen, please, to the question. It says:

20 "There was some resistance to the idea of disbanding the unit.

21 Can you tell me who was for and who was against?"

22 "A. I think I was in favour of disbanding it. I think there was

23 disagreement within the centre itself. I believe that Mr. Stojan was in

24 favour of disbanding it too."

25 Now, how did you get that impression from Mr. Zupljanin given

Page 25724

1 what he is clearly saying here?

2 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours, I was showing a

3 different document, from another meeting, not this document.

4 The witness was asked to interpret another document, another

5 meeting. That's my point. It was a meeting at which he was present and

6 that's what he was interpreting. He was not asked to interpret something

7 where he was not present.

8 JUDGE HALL: I still think you are missing the point of the

9 question, Mr. Krgovic.

10 Please proceed, Ms. Korner.

11 MS. KORNER: Thank you.

12 Q. Now, sir, it is wholly untrue, isn't it, that Stojan Zupljanin

13 wanted the unit disbanded? He wanted the unit kept on.

14 A. No. I was at a meeting where he was in favour of disbanding the

15 unit but Djuro Bulic opposed this. His deputy or his assistant, I'm not

16 quite sure what he was by function.

17 Q. I'll come on to that meeting in a moment. So it's your

18 assertion, anyhow, that he was in favour of disbanding it. Why did it

19 matter whether he was in favour of disbanding it or not, if he had no

20 control over them at all?

21 A. Simply, it was a discussion. Everyone had their opinion to

22 state. The inspectors had their positions to present, and he, respecting

23 the decision of the Republika Srpska government, he acted like an officer

24 and some others believed this was not correctly done. And had he not

25 obeyed the order, this would not have been implemented at all.

Page 25725

1 Q. Can you think of any reason why, if what you're telling the Court

2 is the truth, this was a military unit under military command,

3 Stojan Zupljanin didn't say to the inspectors or to anybody else, I don't

4 know why you're talking to me about it. It's not my decision. This is a

5 military unit.

6 A. Well, because the unit was on the payroll of the centre. He was

7 the one who had to resolve this issue. Here I saw somewhere that it had

8 to do with payroll. Whether their status would be workers who are paid

9 or -- normally he would be the one who would have to decide how the

10 question was resolved financially.

11 I know this was resolved, I personally made the payments, and

12 they received payments until the 31st of the month.

13 Q. Forget -- forget, please, about that. What I'm asking you is

14 to -- can you think of any good reason why, at the very least, he didn't

15 just say, I have nothing to do with these police. As you well know, I'm

16 merely the paymaster.

17 Any reason why he wouldn't have said that, if that was the case?

18 A. I don't see any reason for him to say that. Everyone knew that

19 we were the ones who made the payments, and the army gave everything

20 else. There is nothing more to it.

21 Q. Let's go on, please, then, same topic and the same area, to the

22 document you were shown, which is at 33 of the bundle, and it's P1502.

23 This is the inspectors going back again on the 10th -- well, in

24 fact they go back on the 7th and the 8th. And you have already looked at

25 this document and you looked at in proofing.

Page 25726

1 The second paragraph:

2 "The following attended the first part of the work meeting at the

3 CSB which was held on the 7th and 8th of August ... Stojan Zupljanin,

4 Djuro Bulic" and yourself as assistant commander of the special police

5 detachment. That's right, isn't it?

6 A. I was not the assistant commander. You have a list and you can

7 see my name there. I was present at the meeting, yes.

8 Q. I'm sorry, why would the inspectors be told you were the -- well,

9 you can't answer that one, I suppose.

10 But it's right, isn't it, you were introduced as the assistant

11 commander?

12 A. Well, anyone could have put anything on the record. By

13 establishment, it's known what I was. I could not have held this

14 particular office.

15 Q. Well, I'm going to come and show you exactly why you were, in

16 fact, the assistant commander.

17 But you say anybody can write down anything. How on earth could

18 somebody have written down your name as assistant commander of the

19 special police without somebody having said that? It's not possible, is

20 it?

21 A. It's possible. It's a report someone wrote after the fact. It

22 was written in Sarajevo on the 10th of August, 1992, and it was written

23 by someone based on notes that they had taken. And perhaps because there

24 was no commander, this is how they just formulated that I was the

25 assistant commander. I had specific tasks, and I was not in this

Page 25727

1 position. The fact that I was present is true.

2 Q. Finally before the break, let me ask you this: The next -- the

3 other gentleman there was a Mr. Samara. What was his role?

4 A. He was in the police department. I really don't know. He was --

5 he had some kind of role with the uniformed police, but I'm not quite

6 sure what it was. There is some kind of order there, but I don't know

7 what it is. At this time I really can't recall what he was in the month

8 of August. I don't know. I don't know what's written here. I just have

9 to check, please.

10 Q. Right.

11 A. It says police inspector here.

12 Q. Yes. But I want to know why he was there. What was his

13 function? Why was he at this particular meeting?

14 A. How I would I know? It's a meeting attended by Djuro Bulic, the

15 chief of the centre. There was Colonel Bogojevic on behalf of the army.

16 It was a joint meeting with military security and with these inspectors.

17 It had something to do with that decision to turn the unit over, complete

18 men and its equipment, to turn it over back to the army.

19 Q. Yes. You made a mistake there, didn't you, sir? It was to turn

20 over the special police to the army. Because if they were part of the

21 army, sir --

22 A. No.

23 Q. -- they didn't need to hand back anything.

24 A. If they had some joint equipment. We paid them. We had some

25 men. We would not turn our men over to the army. Those who remain in

Page 25735

1 (redacted)

2 [Open session]

3 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.

4 MS. KORNER:

5 Q. Sir, again, do you agree the special police members are being

6 described as reserve police forces?

7 A. You've seen that the other list contained more than 200 people

8 and you saw how many people the special police had, so something is not

9 quite right here. They were all recorded as reserve members, the actual

10 active police and the reserve forces.

11 Q. The reason that they are described as reserve or active police is

12 because whatever they came from, whether it was the military police or

13 the SOS, they became, did they not, reserve policemen? That was their

14 war-time assignment?

15 A. This was a way to pay them their salary. This was done in such a

16 way in the system, in order to justify the payment. There was a list of

17 270 people who were shown to be members of the reserve, in order to be

18 able to receive their salary. And, here, the signature is not the

19 signature of Stojan Zupljanin. Somebody else signed it for him. It

20 states "for the chief." "For the head."

21 Q. Leaving that aside. Do you agree, whether, as you say it was a

22 strategem or not, all the people who were members of the special police

23 received a war-time assignment as members of the reserve police, if they

24 were not already professional police officers?

25 A. I really don't know whether they were placed on the war-time

Page 25736

1 schedule or not. From what I can see here, this is some sort of formal

2 justification for them to be able to receive their salary. I don't know

3 if their registry cards were taken, changed, if anything was made --

4 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please repeat the last

5 sentence.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Because these things would have to

7 be in their cards, that the cards were taken over on such and such a

8 date, or that they were requested to be placed on the war-time schedule,

9 or something like that. I never -- I don't know if these people were

10 ever officially requested to be placed on the war-time schedule. I'm

11 talking about the practical situation.

12 MS. KORNER:

13 Q. And legally, if they were assigned to the police or the reserve

14 police, then they came under, did they not, the authority - obviously

15 indirectly because they had people in charge - of Stojan Zupljanin?

16 A. From the legal aspect, if they were placed on the war-time

17 assignment list, then they did have some connection with

18 Stojan Zupljanin. But I'm talking about the actual situation on the

19 ground. That they were part of the command that was militarily oriented.

20 Q. All right.

21 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, may that document please be admitted

22 and marked.

23 JUDGE HALL: Ms. Korner, having regard to the number of light

24 documents that we already have do we need to add this to the list?

25 MS. KORNER: Well, it's got -- it is signed off by

Page 25737

1 Stojan Zupljanin who is the accused in this case and who calls them

2 reserve police. Whereas the other was just a list. On -- I'm sorry, I

3 take that back. Somebody on his behalf signed. Whereas, the other one

4 just said "reserve police" at the top. This is slightly different.

5 JUDGE HALL: Admitted and marked.

6 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P2413.

7 MS. KORNER:

8 Q. Now, let's turn to the question of identity cards, where you

9 spent a number of pages attempting to explain it and confusing everybody

10 in the court, at 25462 of the transcript, which was on the Wednesday.

11 Judge Delvoie asked you a number of questions about this. And

12 what you said, at page 25462, in answer to Judge Delvoie:

13 "If you look at these -- those identification cards they weren't

14 really official IDs. They were just some kind of certificates with the

15 same text that could be found on real official police IDs, and that was

16 one of the problems."

17 "Judge Delvoie: Are you telling me now that those people were

18 not police officers?"

19 Your answer:

20 "They basically were police officers because they were issued IDs

21 by the centre, but in essence they were a military unit."

22 Well, either they're police officers with an official identity

23 cards or they're military people. Which was it?

24 A. I have already explained what the situation was. We had problems

25 with people falsely introducing themselves. And this was regulated in a

Page 25738

1 way by providing them with some sort of formal IDs which were created

2 quickly and were not like in form or in content the actual IDs. But that

3 then prevented even larger abuses than the ones committed when they

4 didn't have any of these IDs. They were blue. They had two pages. And

5 the back -- the photographs that they were issued were inside this

6 booklet. This was something that all the actual policemen carried. But

7 these other ID cards were made quickly, to give to these people so that

8 they could enter the facility and to create among them a feeling of

9 responsibility. As I said, during that time, it was some sort of

10 transitional measure.

11 Q. Well, let's just have a look, shall we, of what these ID cards

12 actually looked like and said.

13 Can you have a look, please, now at document 2D00072. You will

14 find it at tab 37.

15 Now, this is, in fact, the criminal report that was rather

16 hopelessly brought against these men that we discussed earlier, two of

17 whom were broken out of prison, and we'll come back to that. We may as

18 well note while we're at it that what you described as just an incident

19 involving a car was actually a robbery, wasn't it? Have a look at the

20 first page.

21 Have a look at the first page, sir.

22 A. Yes, I'm looking at it.

23 Q. Under Boskan and the rest, they were being attempted -- an

24 attempt was made to prosecute them for robbery, wasn't it?

25 A. The criminal act of robbery.

Page 25739

1 Q. Now let's look, please --

2 A. [No interpretation]

3 Q. I didn't catch the translation?

4 A. This was for all three, this.

5 Q. Now, let's move but I'm going to come back to that because I want

6 to deal with the criminal acts committed by the special police

7 separately.

8 I want you to look, please, at a photocopy of the identification

9 card, which is in English --

10 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, unfortunately, the Defence have got

11 this translated and give it page numbers. But it says 1D00-6081 in

12 English at the bottom. And in B/C/S, it is 0 -- 6050, to begin with.

13 Q. Now, this is the card, is it not, of Ljubomir Jokic?

14 A. Yes.

15 MS. KORNER: And can we have the next page in B/C/S, please.

16 Q. That's the back of the identification card, which we can see in

17 English there. The bearer of this identification card is authorised to

18 request to see identification from citizens, bring them in before the

19 relevant organs, stay there and perform a certain without a search

20 without an order from the [indiscernible], carry fire-arms, use them

21 under conditions provided by law, et cetera.

22 Would you agree that gives them powers as police officers?

23 A. I agree, they were issued with official ID cards. Somebody

24 copied the text from the real documents and put them here. But this ID

25 did not look like the proper official ones and it wasn't a proper

Page 25740

1 official one. This text was simply copied from there.

2 And because they were abusive, later it was decided to accept

3 into the police only people who had been through training, who would be

4 told that this does not literally standard, that they would be needed to

5 be aware of very last remark, "use under the conditions provided by law,"

6 that all of this did not apply to them. All those who had gone through a

7 six-month training course could then join the police, those who had the

8 aptitude for it, and they were told that this did not literally apply,

9 that there was certain rules of conduct that they had to respect. It was

10 some sort of improvised measure that did not actually prove to be better.

11 We did have problems with those policemen, members of that unit, who

12 actually had to be criminally charged because they did not act pursuant

13 to the law, and they were not really trained adequately.

14 Q. Yes. Quite -- can I say, I'm not disputing that at all, sir. I

15 accept entirely that because you were in a time of conflict - I say "you,

16 the policemen - they accepted people into the police who otherwise they

17 would not have.

18 But the fact is, sir, isn't it, that these men, however

19 ill-trained, however criminal, were in fact police officers, described as

20 police officers, issued with identity cards as police officers. That's

21 the reality, isn't it?

22 A. I said that it was an identity card. They didn't get police IDs.

23 Police IDs were blue with the real insignia of the state and everything,

24 and this is more of a pass. Only it has this text on it, the same one as

25 on the official ID, but this isn't it.

Page 25741

1 Q. But, I'm sorry, exactly. That's an identical -- it is word for

2 word the text that was on -- when you say "official," let's put it this

3 way, the IDs that had been issued before to the police, because, can I

4 put it to you --

5 Well, first of all, is that right, that the text is identical?

6 A. Yes, I suppose so. The real official ID had something similar on

7 it. And the one who made these documents probably copied it.

8 Q. Identical, sir, not similar. Identical.

9 A. I suppose so. That's what I said. I don't have an original

10 official ID here. That's why I can only suppose. But I mean, there's

11 nothing much to discuss about this.

12 Q. And if they -- if they were not police, and all that was required

13 for them to -- to get an identity card, a photograph, to allow them entry

14 to the barracks, this text would be totally unnecessary, wouldn't it?

15 A. Well, in principle. But as I said, when -- whoever made these

16 chose this layout.

17 Q. So, let's look at what we've established through the documents.

18 They are described as reserve police. They have identification

19 cards which, on the back, has -- has an identical wording to other police

20 passes. I don't know whether you're aware of this, are you -- this

21 expression, have you ever heard the expression, "If it walks like a duck,

22 if it quacks like a duck, then it's probably a duck"?

23 A. I haven't heard that one before. That's interesting. But this

24 was about something else. Officially they were on the registry as such,

25 but I told you about the formal aspect, and the real aspect, and what

Page 25742

1 could be found in the documents.

2 Q. Right. I want you to go to the further payment record for July,

3 please, which you'll find at tab 17; 65 ter 20317.

4 I want you to have a look, please, at page 3, I think it is, and

5 number 31. And it's page 2 in yours; page 3 in ours.

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Nikola Damjanovic. Did you know him?

8 A. No, I don't know ... I don't really know 90 per cent of these

9 people.

10 Q. All right. Number 47, Slobodan -- well, the name at number 47;

11 did you know him?

12 A. Well, I don't know. The surname is familiar. But if you would

13 show me a photograph, I wouldn't be able to recognise the man. I did see

14 those guys, but I didn't have dealings with them, really. I paid them

15 their salaries, and, in most cases, somebody -- somebody of them would

16 sign.

17 Q. Right. Thank you. Can we go to the last page, I'm sorry.

18 Do you see there in the last page, very last page in both,

19 English and B/C/S? Last page. No. The last page should be page 12 in

20 English - thank you - and ...

21 Do you see there Novak Zeljkovic was paid based on approval by

22 the chief of centre?

23 A. Yes. True.

24 Q. Did you know him?

25 A. To tell you the truth, I don't know. Somebody was added here for

Page 25743

1 some reason. I made a note that he was paid based on approval, and that

2 the money for him was taken over by Captain Dubocanin. That was my

3 remark. Because I didn't give the money to him personally. I gave it to

4 Captain Dubocanin.

5 Q. Well, did you check personally with Stojan Zupljanin that it was

6 okay to pay this guy?

7 A. No, I didn't.

8 Q. Well --

9 A. Neither did Stojan Zupljanin. I paid out the money. And I have

10 the certificate here, that Captain Dubocanin received that money, and I

11 suppose that he knew the man.

12 Q. No, no, I'm sorry. It says based on approval by the chief of

13 centre. Before you paid the money, did you speak to Stojan Zupljanin and

14 say you approve it -- say, Do you approve it?

15 A. Well, how should I know now? It's been 20 years. I can only see

16 that I made this remark here. He may have brought a piece of paper - I

17 mean, Dubocanin - or simply told me so. I really don't know. It's been

18 20 years. It's hard for me to be sure why I made a certain remark.

19 Q. All right.

20 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, may this be entered and marked,

21 please, exhibited and marked.

22 JUDGE HALL: Admitted and marked.

23 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P2414, Your Honours.

24 MS. KORNER: I'm sorry, Your Honour, we're going to have to go

25 back for a moment to the identification card which is, please, 1D6 ...

Page 25744

1 oh, no, sorry, I see it's a different one.

2 Could we have up, sorry. Could we have -- it's not on my list

3 but something's being pointed out to me for some reason. 1D6082.

4 Your Honours, it is to do with the issue of identification cards. Sorry

5 about this. I've just been, as you'll gather, sent a note about this.

6 1D006082, please.

7 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

8 MS. KORNER: [Microphone not activated]

9 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for ...

10 MS. KORNER: Can I just confirm, I'm not sure -- because I

11 believe that is the same one we've just shown. I see it is part of 2D.

12 But can we -- I'm still not at all clear why -- could I look at the back

13 of this, in B/C/S. Just a moment. No. All right.

14 Your Honours, I'm sorry. [Indiscernible] listening to people

15 sending you e-mails into court. Can we move on, please.

16 Could we now look, please, at where some of these officers came

17 from. Could we have a look, please, at 65 ter -- sorry. Yes. And I'm

18 sorry, Your Honours, it is my fault, and I'm now wasting some of my

19 precious time.

20 Can I go back, please, to the list that we were originally

21 looking to, which has just been admitted as an exhibit. 2414.

22 Q. Number 17 in your bundle.

23 Do you see there number 10, Aleksandar Tolimir?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. He was an ex-member of the SOS, wasn't he?

Page 25745

1 A. I suppose so.

2 Q. No. You knew that he was an ex-member of the SOS, didn't you?

3 A. Well, let me tell you, I have never seen an official list of

4 these people. I cannot be fully sure who was a member. There were

5 rumours about a number of them being SOS men, but I cannot swear on it.

6 I suppose that he may have been.

7 Q. Well, you knew that, didn't you, because he was one of the

8 leaders of the SOS, wasn't he, when Banja Luka was barricaded in April?

9 A. I wasn't there when -- at the time of these barricades, so I

10 really don't know. It was an organisation I wasn't part of. I cannot

11 give you any official information because I don't have it.

12 If you have information that he was, all right. But I don't have

13 such information. I was never at a meeting of any such association.

14 Q. I mean, I'm not going to show it to you. But, in fact, he

15 appears in the full report as one of the leaders that was done by "Glas"

16 on the 4th of April.

17 But I want you to look at somebody else that you identified at

18 number 31, Nikola Damjanovic.

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 25747

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 [Open session]

8 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.

9 MS. KORNER: Oh, thank you.

10 Q. He participated as an SDS member in the arming of the Serbian

11 people in Dvor Na Uni and Glina, and then he joined apparently the --

12 well, it says on behalf of the 1st Krajina Corps Military Police under

13 the knowledge of Commander Milan Stevilovic, et cetera, et cetera. And

14 then he apparently personally arrested the secretary of the SDS, who was

15 spying. And then on the invitation of the War Presidency of Banja Luka

16 as part of the military police, he participated in the attack on

17 Derventa, returned to Banja Luka, where during the blockade of the town

18 by the SOS forces he protected vital facilities as an SOS member.

19 So would you agree that you signed off saying that this man,

20 under -- there's no doubt about it, was a member of the SOS?

21 A. This is my signature, and his superiors stated this information

22 about him as true. You can see that it says up there that

23 Colonel Stevilovic coordinated all these activities, as I had said.

24 Which means that it was all organised by the military.

25 Q. You see, let me say again what the reality was. Accepting that

Page 25748

1 it was a time of war, wasn't it, special police accepted anybody who

2 volunteered to join, whatever their background. Didn't they? And you,

3 as one of the leaders, I suggest, accepted anybody.

4 A. Well, you know, what I see in front of me, this profile with

5 regard to the combat activities, is given -- or issued upon the request

6 of the said person. This was obviously stated by his fellow fighters

7 because he had some -- had a difficulty with speaking. He seems to be a

8 person with -- with a post-traumatic syndrome, as it is called today.

9 Some places are mentioned here, but I have never visited them myself.

10 Q. Look, sir, that's not the question I asked you. I asked you

11 whether, in fact, in reality, the special police carried out the --

12 the -- the -- the leaders of the special police detachment carried out no

13 checks on anybody and was prepared to accept anybody from any background?

14 That's the reality, isn't it?

15 A. Well, let me tell you, this --

16 Q. Either yes or no, please --

17 A. -- person has been subject to checks. He was a member of some

18 unit or other. And after his injury ...

19 Q. All right. And, indeed, I'm suggesting to you that he was, as

20 I've suggested all along, not a member of the military but a member of

21 the police. If you look at the second paragraph, in the middle, after

22 this, he put himself forward as an experienced fighter as a candidate for

23 the special police unit where he was accepted on the 15th of May.

24 A. But this also said that, on 4 July, he had a traffic accident,

25 and after that, he suffered from -- he had psychological and physical

Page 25749

1 difficulties --

2 Q. I agree -- I agree --

3 A. This is what he stated. You must bear in mind that this was

4 probably an aggressively behaving PTSD case so they would have issued him

5 any certificate whatsoever.

6 Q. No. The point is, sir, is that it's not that he was not a member

7 of the military. He was put forward as a candidate for the special

8 police and he was accepted. That's what this says, doesn't it?

9 A. It says here "experienced fighter." He volunteered as a

10 candidate for the special police. But to who? To Stevilovic? Or to

11 Markovic? Because they're volunteers. They accepted to go to the

12 special police as soldiers, which means that Stevilovic selected them

13 among the volunteers, and that's the meaning of this sentence.

14 Q. All right.

15 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, may this --

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The same as in the police. We also

17 had volunteers.

18 MS. KORNER: Yes, Your Honour, may this be admitted and marked,

19 please.

20 JUDGE HALL: Admitted and marked.

21 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P2415, Your Honours.

22 MS. KORNER:

23 Q. Now I want to move, please, to deal with the question -- well,

24 can I just ask -- I'm going to ask you to look over the break, the next

25 break, at some photographs with names of members of the special police.

Page 25750

1 But I want you to have a look at them before I ask you any questions

2 because I'm going to move to resubordination.

3 You say that all of the special police at all times were

4 resubordinated to the military; is that right?

5 A. Yes. In combat activities.

6 Q. Well, -- well, let's get this straight then.

7 What are you calling combat activities?

8 A. Combat activities, in principle, went on all the time. That's

9 why I said that it was resubordinated. The entire unit was in areas

10 where there were combat activities of the army. And in these areas, the

11 unit was resubordinated, which is the standard designation for this type

12 of activity.

13 Q. All right. Are you saying that anywhere where the unit went,

14 even if given no task at all by the military, it was still

15 resubordinated?

16 A. I think that, in principle, it didn't go anywhere without the

17 military present because it was war time.

18 The military always had the main role in all these activities.

19 Q. Yes, no, I'm sorry. Is it your assertion that simply because the

20 military was there in the area, even though your unit was given no

21 specific task to carry out by the military, it was still resubordinated?

22 A. Well, in principle, wherever it was, or, rather, wherever there

23 was war-time activity, in the entire area, the army had priority. They

24 were more powerful than we were.

25 Q. Look. Listen very carefully to the question.

Page 25751

1 Is it your assertion that if you were carrying out any task, for

2 example, interviewing prisoners, even if given no direction or order by

3 the military, you were still resubordinated?

4 A. Well, let me tell you, it depends what they do. Interviewing

5 people means doing the job of state security or public security. If the

6 interview is about a situation, then the chief of state security is

7 informed but, simultaneously, military security is informed.

8 There was this link between state security and military security.

9 Q. Sir, there's a difference, and you know yourself there's a

10 difference. I'm not suggesting for one moment that the military and the

11 special police, particularly in Kotor Varos, were not acting together.

12 But I'm asking you about what you have been asserting, which is that,

13 you, the special police, were resubordinated in the proper, legal,

14 technical term, every time you carried out a task.

15 Is that what you are saying?

16 A. In principle, yes.

17 Q. All right. The word "resubordination," was that a word suggested

18 to you by Mr. Zupljanin, for example, in a phone call?

19 A. No.

20 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...

21 A. The term "resubordination" is a standard term applicable in

22 military terminology, and I'm an army reserve officer; therefore, I use

23 this word.

24 Q. And just tell us, would you, please, in your own language, what

25 is the word you use?

Page 25752

1 A. I say resubordination or subordinational units. But the official

2 technical term is resubordination, and also legal, and it is applied in

3 military terminology, and I finished a military school, and we were given

4 proper instruction about this. And it is also contained in the rules of

5 the department for preparations. There were some guide-lines concerning

6 that, the department preparing war plans and similar items.

7 Q. All right. Well, I'm going to -- but I just want to put one more

8 thing to you on your relationship with Mr. Zupljanin.

9 It's right, isn't it, you and Mr. Zupljanin were very close?

10 A. I have already said that we never had coffee together. In our

11 part of the world, when you say that you don't have coffee with someone,

12 it means that you -- you are not close to those people, and I also might

13 add that I never went to celebrate his family patron saint's day. And

14 after that -- all I would like to add that I never went to his home. The

15 only place I saw him was in his workplace --

16 Q. Well --

17 A. -- and in passing. Therefore, we never socialised, and I cannot

18 say that we were particularly close.

19 Q. Well, can you think of any reason why Mr. Radulovic came to see

20 you while Mr. Zupljanin was on the run to see if you knew where

21 Mr. Zupljanin was?

22 A. Well, Mr. Radulovic was an intelligence officer, and he probably

23 tried to find a contact person. I was not that kind of person, and he

24 found someone else. And I suppose that he conducted the same interview

25 with hundreds of other people as the one that he had with me.

Page 25753

1 Q. All right. Let's look, please, at one example of -- of what, I

2 suggest to you, is resubordination proper.

3 MS. KORNER: Could we have look, please, at 65 ter 754.

4 Q. Document number 41 for you, sir.

5 Now, I'm not suggesting, sir, you would have ever seen this

6 order, but you knew who the 1st Light Infantry Brigade were in

7 Kotor Varos, didn't you?

8 A. I didn't know that its name was the 1st Light Infantry Brigade,

9 but I was aware of the fact that there was a certain military formation

10 there.

11 Q. Commanded by somebody called Dusan Novakovic?

12 A. I don't know the gentleman.

13 Q. Never came across him in all your time in Kotor Varos? As the

14 head of the military down there? Or the head of the 1st -- the

15 1st Light Infantry Brigade.

16 A. I never had any direct contacts, apart from with the people that

17 I already named. I personally saw Colonel Peulic, then Stevilovic, but

18 as for the others, let me add that at this entry check-point there was

19 another officer. But as for the others, I didn't have any contacts or

20 any dealings with them. And to put it simply, I don't remember this

21 name. But as I said, I knew that there was a military unit in

22 Kotor Varos. However, what was its strength and who their commanding

23 officer was, I don't know.

24 Q. All right. Let's look at number three, paragraph 3 of this

25 order. A platoon -- do you see the words: "A platoon of the Banja Luka

Page 25754

1 CSB service centre" --

2 A. Just one moment, please.

3 Page 3? Give me a moment, please.

4 Q. Third paragraph, please. Not page 3. Third paragraph.

5 A. Uh-huh. Just a moment, please.

6 Paragraph 3?

7 Q. A platoon of the Banja Luka CSB will engage in action in

8 coordination with the Kotor Varos Light Infantry Brigade in the direction

9 of Kotor.

10 Now, a platoon of what from the CSB? This is the

11 30th of September.

12 A. 30th of September --

13 Q. 24th. 24th of -- 24th, I'm sorry.

14 A. Just a second. What it says here, the CSB platoon. Maybe that's

15 what they called them after the change-over of the situation. After the

16 29th of September, there was no police unit or any platoons. When they

17 say CSB platoon, they probably meant those who took over on the

18 10th of August.

19 Q. All right.

20 A. It makes sense.

21 Q. Well, I'm going to suggest to you in a moment that the special

22 police were not disbanded on the 10th of August at all. But I want to

23 deal with this.

24 Right. Now, there, sir, that is a classic example, isn't it, of

25 a police squad, or whatever you like to call it, being used by the

Page 25755

1 military to carry out combat?

2 A. No. At the time when this was written, there was no such units.

3 In other words, it can only refer to the unit that was handed over to

4 them on the 10th of August, and that's how they called it.

5 Q. Okay. Well, that's fine by me. Leave aside the 10th of August,

6 the -- those members of the special police that were handed over to the

7 army were engaged in combat, and clearly not as members of the army,

8 because otherwise there would have been no need to say that, would there?

9 A. Well, your construct is completely erroneous. You might call it

10 what you wish, as some were called Burcani. But they were members of the

11 army or Territorial Defence. However, they had their colloquial name.

12 Similarly this one was from the CSB or taken over from the CSB.

13 I don't know how else to explain to you --

14 Q. But, sir, stop. Stop --

15 A. The three platoons numbering 100 men were left behind and they

16 were in this unit.

17 Q. But, stop, sir. If they had been handed over on the

18 10th of August and were members -- proper members of the army, they would

19 no longer be described, would they, as the Banja Luka CSB unit? They had

20 been absorbed into the units.

21 A. Most probably they maintained the same strengths divided into

22 platoons as it had been before. And for easier communication,

23 orientation, that's what they were called.

24 Q. All right. But last question on this document: Do you accept

25 that -- that what's being talked about here is actual fighting, combat?

Page 25756

1 A. Yes. This is an order to launch an attack, to engage in combat

2 operations.

3 Q. All right. We'll leave that document, then.

4 MS. KORNER: And, Your Honours, can I ask that that be admitted

5 and marked, please.

6 JUDGE HALL: Admitted and marked.

7 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P2416, Your Honours.

8 JUDGE HALL: And it's time for the break.

9 MS. KORNER: Could I ask that the witness be given the document

10 which is at tab 62, number -- doesn't matter about the number. I would

11 like him to have a look at it over the break, please.

12 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Before it's given to the witness,

13 can the Prosecutor please tell us what this document essentially

14 contains. Is it something that was prepared by the Prosecution and then

15 they ask the witness to deal with it?

16 What is this document about?

17 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, this was disclosed some time last year.

18 It's a set of photographs that come from the CSB in Banja Luka, that were

19 collected together, and where such identification was possible of the

20 names, that was made from the records. It is from the CSB Banja Luka.

21 Mr. Koehler made a lengthy statement about it sometime last year and

22 that's when it was disclosed.

23 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] All I wanted to know was who

24 entered those names and who compiled this document. That is what I

25 wanted Ms. Korner to explain to us.

Page 25780

1 specifically to report, a citizen came to report something at the

2 Rakovacke Bare command and I informed the superior officers about this.

3 I think that -- well, I said I saw Mr. Lukic only once, and I think that

4 that was that time when he was at the command. Later I saw him around

5 town but I never saw him at the command again, at Rakovacke Bare command.

6 Perhaps he would come and go and go to the field somewhere else, but at

7 that time he said that all the members should be lined up and that person

8 who claimed that there was some crimes committed by some members, he was

9 asked to see if he could recognise them.

10 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...

11 A. So we did the lineup. And the man looked at everybody and didn't

12 recognise anyone.

13 Q. Let's move on to rather more serious complaints, shall we?

14 First of all -- no, I'm not going to ask that question because we

15 have to go into private session.

16 Can you have a look, please, at P567, which is at number 11 of

17 the binder.

18 Did you ever investigate the complaint that came from

19 Bosanski Novi that, in May, when they'd been sent -- the special police

20 had been sent to Bosanska Kostajnica, a large number of citizens

21 complained about the work of the members of the special unit who entered

22 houses by force, beat up the menfolk and so on. Did you carry out any

23 investigations to a complaint from another police station?

24 A. Looking at this document for the first time, this is not a

25 document that I saw before, so I never acted pursuant to it. I didn't

Page 25781

1 carry out an investigation.

2 Q. When it's addressed to Ecim personally, are you saying that he

3 never passed this on to you?

4 A. No, no, I never had this in my hands before.

5 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... report a beating, it's a

6 report of the next paragraph Mr. Ometlic had a lot of money, a watch and

7 glasses taken.

8 If we go to the next page, please, in English and also, I think,

9 in B/C/S.

10 Then there was stealing a car, which seems to have been habitual

11 for your police. Beating up Mr. Aljovic, et cetera.

12 And then at the end we see there were two Official Notes by

13 Stojan Bjelajac. Do you see that.

14 A. Yeah. Yes, I see it, at the end, at the bottom. Bjelajac,

15 Stojan, special police member.

16 Q. And he was a member of the special police, wasn't he?

17 A. It states here: Report on the stay of the special unit from the

18 commander of the special staff, Novkovic Mirko, and two Official Notes by

19 Stojan Bjelajac. I don't know if they're his Official Notes or not.

20 It's a little bit odd, this. I don't know what to say, really. I never

21 received the document --

22 Q. No, I'm asking you --

23 A. I didn't do anything in relation to it. And there is no

24 signature.

25 Q. No, I'm asking you whether the gentleman mentioned there,

Page 25782

1 Mr. Stojan, with the unpronounceable surname, was a member of the special

2 police, to your knowledge, as described in this ...

3 A. I would have to look at the list.

4 Q. Well, you see, he was one of the names that you were asked about

5 when you looked that long document from Mr. Tutus. And --

6 A. Then I had the document with information about who was in the

7 detachment and who wasn't. If they were in the detachment, you would be

8 able to see that right away, according to the alphabetical order, and

9 then I would issue information on the basis of that.

10 Because I didn't know anybody just like that, off the top of my

11 head. It would be very strange if I knew 150 people off the top of my

12 head.

13 Q. You were shown this complaint about him and you were specifically

14 asked whether he was a member of the police and you said, No, he wasn't.

15 I can tell because he was a member of the --

16 A. [Overlapping speakers] ...

17 Q. Just a minute.

18 A. Very well.

19 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] I would just like to ask Ms. Korner

20 to pay attention to how she is addressing the witness. I would kindly

21 ask her not to shout at the witness and to address him in a kind manner.

22 MS. KORNER: I agree. No, I apologise, Your Honours. I'm afraid

23 I let my irritation at the constant drivel get the best of me.

24 Q. Sir, you were asked in -- by Mr. Krgovic about

25 Stojan-what's-his-name and you said he was not a member of the special

Page 25783

1 police, that he wasn't in 1993, but he was, wasn't he, in 1992, at the

2 time when this complaint was released -- made?

3 A. I just said that he wasn't on the list. I didn't have him on

4 this list as a member. Perhaps he was there in the period before the

5 list was drawn up. This list that I had, if the person wasn't on it,

6 then the person was not a member of the special unit. Because it was a

7 list that I received in 1993 from Djuro Bobic. And somebody had already

8 made notes on it, and then I also did, on the basis of what I managed to

9 find out. It's a simple list. When I was answering, I had both lists in

10 front of me and I could easily see whether it was there or not.

11 Q. Right. Well, I assure you that Mr. -- your assertion, sir, was

12 wrong, and you now see that it was totally wrong, wasn't it? He was,

13 indeed, in 1992, a member of the special police.

14 A. Could you please give me a document so that I could see that.

15 Q. Yes. Well, I'll -- all right.

16 MS. KORNER: Can we have a look -- no, I'm come back to that

17 because I don't want to waste any more time. I'll come back to that

18 after the break.

19 Q. Right. Let's have a look at the next complaint, please. P659;

20 document 13.

21 This is somewhat ironically, I suppose one could say, a complaint

22 from Simo Drljaca on the 13th of June where we hear the same theme. The

23 unit whose members were commanded by the gentleman who is named there was

24 not able to control any -- exert any control over the conduct of his

25 troops. That was the main reason why the troops assigned duties at

Page 25784

1 Omarska behaved with such extreme negligence. What they did there had

2 least of all to do with security, arbitrary arrest, interrogation, abuse

3 of prisoners, theft of their money, jewellery, et cetera, et cetera. The

4 help we received from the special unit of the Banja Luka Security

5 Services Centre during the attack on Prijedor was valuable, but after the

6 joint action of the army, the special unit and our police, I received

7 many complaints about the conduct of the special unit.

8 Now this was addressed to Stojan Zupljanin. Did he pass that

9 complaint on to you to investigate?

10 A. This was not conveyed to me personally.

11 I'm trying to remember. I think that there was some kind of back

12 and forth between the special and the local police. They were

13 quarrelling, so it turned out to be a quarrel between them. I think both

14 of them behaved improperly, but there were stories. I think somebody did

15 conduct that procedure. I think this was on the 13th of June.

16 I don't remember any disciplinary proceedings on this matter. I

17 don't remember conducting anything like that. It was probably at the

18 time when there was nobody there to do that.

19 Q. I'm sorry, what do you mean it was a quarrel between the local

20 police and the special police?

21 A. At the time, this was a feature, that, very frequently, like kids

22 when they have a quarrel, they were accusing each other about things,

23 something like, Give me my dolls back. I remember there were things like

24 that happening in cafes, because the active-duty police considered

25 themselves to be gentlemen and these other people were considered as

Page 25785

1 military riffraff. So often they would do all sorts of things to each

2 other. They would be reporting on each other. I don't know exactly what

3 this was about. Perhaps if I had more information I would be able to see

4 what it was about.

5 Q. I'm sorry, you -- this is -- it is absolutely clear -- you know

6 what happened at Omarska, don't you?

7 A. I heard about it, but I didn't have the opportunity to see

8 Omarska. I heard that there were incidents there, but I wasn't able to

9 see it.

10 I was out in the field. I confirmed where I was. I cannot give

11 you my positions on places where I did not go.

12 Q. You know full well, don't you, that there was a -- let's call it

13 a detention centre for the moment at Omarska which was run by the police.

14 You know that, don't you?

15 A. I'm telling you that I wasn't there. I cannot say anything about

16 that.

17 Q. No, stop.

18 A. It would be pointless for me to talk about Omarska.

19 Q. No. Did you know at the time that the police had a facility at

20 the Omarska mine? Not whether you went there. Did you know?

21 A. I didn't know about it at that time.

22 Q. All right. But a letter arrived saying that people who are being

23 held at Omarska, prisoners, are being abused by your special police.

24 Did you take any action yourself to investigate?

25 A. As I said, I didn't have this information, and, as I said, there

Page 25786

1 were stories that they had a quarrel over there with Simo Drljaca.

2 I really don't know what happened. I didn't have the opportunity

3 to elaborate that further. I really don't know.

4 Q. All right. And this gentleman, Slobodan Strazivuk, do you know

5 him to be a member of the special police?

6 A. The surname is familiar. I think so, yes. I would have to

7 look -- I mean, if he was on that list, then he definitely was.

8 Q. Well, you know he is on the list we've looked at already once

9 today. Number 47 on document --

10 A. Yes. Then ...

11 Q. So you didn't do anything about that complaint either.

12 Let's look at the next complaint. Perhaps one of the more

13 serious ones you may think.

14 MS. KORNER: Can we have a look, please, at P81.

15 MR. KRGOVIC: [Microphone not activated] Tab number?

16 MS. KORNER: 16.

17 Q. Crisis Staff, 26th of June, where Dr. Gajanin is informing the

18 Crisis Staff of the -- of the situation as regards casualties and

19 reported on what had been done on the premises of the health centre by

20 members of the special unit, which he had tried to prevent but was driven

21 away at gun point. Djekanovic said that last night he told Dubocanin

22 about everything going on at the health centre and in town and had been

23 assured by him it would be prevented. He said that all these questions

24 had to be cleared up and information provided on the behaviour of the

25 members of the special unit at the meeting with Zupljanin, the chief of

Page 25787

1 the CSB, scheduled for tomorrow. Mikic said that the Crisis Staff had

2 discussed the behaviour of the members of the special unit on several

3 occasions and shown itself to be unable to influence them, and he asked

4 Lieutenant-Colonel Peulic to help solve this problem. He also said this

5 kind of behaviour could endanger the whole operation and make life more

6 difficult afterwards.

7 At the end of this item, the president said what had been done

8 yesterday must not happen again. This kind of behaviour by members of

9 the special unit and individuals on our side must be dealt with and they

10 must be put under control.

11 Now, you were asked about this incident by your own counsel. Are

12 you telling the Court that being in Kotor Varos as you were in the month

13 were June, no one told you about the killing of unarmed men outside the

14 health centre?

15 A. I am hearing about this for first time at the Tribunal. While in

16 Kotor Varos I did not see a single person that was killed. I saw one

17 wounded person that I took to the medical centre. I did not see anybody

18 being killed. The only dead people that I saw, and this was not in

19 Kotor Varos, were people who were killed and who were brought to

20 Banja Luka for the -- for identification, and these were people from the

21 special corps. I mean, this is something that I am prepared to answer

22 questions with the use of a polygraph.

23 Q. Yes, I'm sure you are able to, as you talked in graphic detail

24 about that repellent video we saw. I'm not asking whether you saw the

25 dead bodies but whether anybody told you Stojan Zupljanin, Dubocanin,

Page 25788

1 Mr. Djekanovic, Mr. Pejic, Inspector Pejic, that members of the special

2 police had cold-bloodedly murdered not less than 18 people outside the

3 health centre?

4 A. Well, I'm saying that I didn't have that information at all.

5 Nobody told me that.

6 Q. So Stojan Zupljanin --

7 A. And I stand by that.

8 Q. Stojan Zupljanin, who has been called for a meeting or they're

9 having a meeting with him, never said, Go and investigate who was

10 responsible for the killing so that we can bring charges against these

11 men?

12 A. I am seeing this for the first time. I mean, not the first time

13 but this story, now, nobody ever told me that this happened. So how

14 could somebody tell me to do something if they didn't even tell me that

15 it happened. There's no logic to that. And I didn't know that anything

16 like that had happened either, nor do I see here that anything like that

17 had happened.

18 You're saying that an incident is mentioned here in front of the

19 hospital.

20 Q. Yes. Well, let me assure you that from other evidence that is

21 what is being discussed, and you'd say you never heard, ever, until this

22 Tribunal started about the killings outside the health centre?

23 MS. KORNER: And on that note, Your Honours.

24 JUDGE HALL: Sorry, before we take the adjournment. Although the

25 witness, to my mind, has indirectly answered the question, for my own

Page 25790

1 (redacted)

2 [Open session]

3 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.

4 MS. KORNER:

5 Q. Sir, let's continue on the topic of complaints.

6 Could you have a look now, please, at the document which is

7 number 18 in your bundle, and it's P1089.

8 This is a document dated the 1st of July, 1992, and it's

9 addressed to the chief of the Security Services Centre, from Mr. Josic of

10 the SJB. And there's a number of documents. The first is an

11 Official Note - can we go to the next page, please - of an interview with

12 a member, an anonymous member, it would appear, of the special police.

13 I'll just run through the names that he mentions.

14 MS. KORNER: Can we go, please, to the third page in English.

15 And also -- and the second page in B/C/S. So we're on the same page.

16 Q. Mile Todorovic, who took pistols.

17 Mr. Vranjes, took money from bodies of dead police officers.

18 Mr. Kojic, smuggling weapons.

19 Mr. Milankovic, broke into an apartment.

20 MS. KORNER: Sorry, we need to go to the next page in B/C/S.

21 Then we see again Mr. Slobodan Strazivuk. That the complaint had

22 come from Prijedor. Arms smuggler, stealing fuel. Opening fire on a man

23 in a cafe. Mr. Grujic.

24 Mr. Gajic. Vukadinovic.

25 And then the next page in English, please.

Page 25791

1 Danko Kajkut.

2 Q. Was he a brother or cousin of Nenad, sir?

3 A. He may have been a relative. It's the same surname.

4 Q. And he is confiscating foreign currency. Apparently stealing

5 cars. The commander of the Doboj unit now drives a white Mercedes 300.

6 Come back to the Doboj unit in a moment.

7 Stealing foreign currency, Mr. Divic, Mr. Sladojevic. And

8 Mr. Boskan again, together with Mr. Krizanac and Mr. Marincic. Seizing

9 passenger vehicles.

10 Over the page in English again, please, and over the page in

11 B/C/S.

12 This time Mr. Nenad Kajkut has gone through several stolen

13 vehicles so on and so forth.

14 And then a gentleman who is making, I accept entirely, an

15 anonymous complaint from the special unit says, Now they continue to do

16 the same, but they've been joined in Kotor Varos by Ecim, the head of the

17 special forces. They steal large quantities of leather, leather jackets,

18 bags and the like.

19 And then Dusan Dragojevic.

20 Now, did you investigate any of these allegations?

21 A. This report was written by a platoon member who was expelled for

22 being undisciplined. I know that there were stories about this. He

23 wanted to spite the others, and he wrote down all sorts of allegations

24 but we were unable to come by any proof.

25 We didn't do anything special about this. The more so, since it

Page 25792

1 was anonymous.

2 Q. Let's take first things first. How do you know that this report

3 was written by a platoon member who had been expelled?

4 A. People talked about it. They analysed it among themselves. I

5 cannot remember the details now, but somebody was thrown out for lack of

6 discipline and then drew up something like this. And we had no

7 information to corroborate it. And everybody denied the allegations, as

8 far as I remember.

9 Q. Well, sir, was the answer to my original question, did you

10 investigate any of these allegations: Yes, you did?

11 A. Well, there was an investigation, but it didn't go in-depth. And

12 the investigation showed that the person was unreliable and that he

13 alleged all this just to harm everybody else and that it was unfounded.

14 I didn't have specific reports about these cases.

15 Q. But didn't you think, particularly, as, for example,

16 Mr. Strazivuk, this is the second complaint there's been about him,

17 didn't you think that perhaps you ought to carry out a thorough

18 investigation as to whether this man should remain in the special police?

19 A. Whenever there was specific information, we would remove the

20 persons involved from the war-time assignment. Whenever there was

21 anything reliable. It says here that he took a large quantity of fuel,

22 is involved in weapons smuggling. But -- or is in possession of a

23 passenger car from Kljuc or Donji Vakuf. We had nothing we could use.

24 There was a member from Western Slavonia who was removed for some reason.

25 I don't quite remember what exactly it was, whether he made a mistake in

Page 25793

1 his work or engaged in some activity of this sort. Because it was

2 20 years ago, after all.

3 But there was -- there was something of this type, and then it

4 was declared to be insinuation.

5 Q. Wasn't an allegation of arms smuggling a serious one? Because

6 you've told us that people were selling arms to non-Serbs. Wasn't that

7 something you thought deserved investigation?

8 A. Well, to prove that, we would have had to find the one who bought

9 the weapons and the one who sold them and everything else. So this is

10 merely hearsay. There is no tangible evidence because there are no --

11 there is no information even about the type of weapons. And everybody we

12 asked said they had nothing to do with these allegations, and this was

13 that all this was merely malice.

14 Q. Well, let's carry on and look at the next complaint, which is

15 rather more official.

16 MS. KORNER: If you go to the next page, please, in English, in

17 the same document. And in B/C/S, it's the fifth page. And in English

18 it's the eighth page. Yep.

19 Q. 20th of June, three members of the Banja Luka special police

20 unit, Mr. Racic and Mr. -- well, two members it looks like. And

21 Mr. Makivic, both of whom were members of the special unit, weren't they?

22 A. This one, Makivic -- well, he must have been if it is stated

23 here.

24 Q. I can assure you that in a document that are both listed as

25 members of the 1st Platoon. It's one of the documents that has been

Page 25794

1 produced as an exhibit. I can't remember. It's 54. But I don't want to

2 go onto that.

3 And then Baja Makivic telephoned, according to this official

4 report, the CSB chief, Stojan Zupljanin, demanding that all five officers

5 who had arrested Mr. Rakic at the SDK -- I'm not quite sure what he

6 wanted but --

7 A. I can't see what this is about because it's illegible.

8 Q. Well. Do you see -- it's not -- I agree it is not a very good

9 copy.

10 Mr. Rakic, apparently had been threatening a police officer

11 with -- threatened him with a pistol. Then Mr. Makivic actually

12 telephoned Stojan Zupljanin apparently.

13 Did you -- well, I mean the real question is - I mean, I don't

14 think the details are that important, actually - were you given this to

15 investigate, and did you do anything about it?

16 A. I really cannot read what this says.

17 Q. Well, do you remember an incident where two members of the

18 special police, on the 20th of June, went and created a pretty un --

19 unpleasant scene at the SJB, and one of them personally telephoned

20 Zupljanin about it?

21 Do you remember that?

22 A. I don't remember that, but I -- now I remember that a certain

23 Racic fired a shot in his own mouth, and he has been disabled since. He

24 probably wasn't in a normal state of mind. This may be this incident.

25 I'm not sure that this is the same person, but I think that one

Page 25795

1 Racic fired a shot in his own mouth.

2 Q. Well, not on this occasion. He pointed a pistol at the police

3 officer.

4 Anyway, you did no investigations into this incident that you can

5 recall.

6 A. I don't recall.

7 Q. Hmm.

8 A. If an investigation was made, then there must be an Official Note

9 about the person involved being taken off the war-time assignment, and

10 whoever has been taken off the war-time assignment cannot be on the

11 payroll for August.

12 Q. Well, the fact is that he was on the document that we looked at

13 before, and let's have a quick look at it again, regrettably.

14 MS. KORNER: I think it's been given an exhibit number. It's at

15 54, tab 54. It was 20323. It is now Exhibit 2410. Thank you.

16 Q. 1st Platoon, and this, as we've already discussed, this document

17 was prepared sometime after the 31st of July. At number 5, Gojko Racic.

18 And I've lost the other gentleman now.

19 A. Yes, yes. There is Gojko Racic at number 5.

20 Q. And I have lost, unfortunately, Mr. Makivic, although I thought I

21 had him after ...

22 A. I can't see him here. But he must be somewhere, I think.

23 Q. Yes. All right. Well, we all agree he is a member of the

24 specials.

25 Right. Can we move, then, to the next document, please, although

Page 25796

1 there is a further complaint about another.

2 Can we look now, please, at P85. That's number 19 in the bundle.

3 I've just seen him. He is number 15, Mr. Makivic.

4 This is back to the Crisis Staff, this time on the 2nd of July.

5 Item number 3:

6 "Considering the situation in the SJB public security and the

7 behaviour of special unit members, Ljuban Ecim and Stojan Zupljanin are

8 to be called for interview."

9 Now, did Mr. Ecim or Mr. Zupljanin say to you after the 2nd of

10 July, The special police in Kotor Varos are still, putting at its lowest,

11 misbehaving. We need to investigate.

12 And looking at above, it seems to be in connection with stealing

13 cars and taking them to Banja Luka. Did they ever tell that you need to

14 investigate the theft of motor cars?

15 A. I don't know this Official Note. I haven't seen these minutes,

16 so I don't know.

17 But I've never been tasked with this. Maybe somebody else did

18 it, but I did not.

19 Q. All right. On we go.

20 Right. This is the incident which we looked at briefly in

21 relation to Mr. Boskan and his friends. Sorry, item 24, which is --

22 sorry. P584.

23 Now, this incident you do remember, I take it, sir?

24 A. I think this is the incident that has to do with their being

25 brought in.

Page 25797

1 Q. The robbery, and then the arrest, and then the violent freeing of

2 them. You recall that incident, I take it?

3 A. I remember.

4 Q. Now, what actions, if any, did you take to investigate or get rid

5 of these men? Or to prosecute.

6 A. Well, it was about these people that I went to the Banja Luka CSB

7 and spoke to the centre chief. Actually, no. First to the centre chief,

8 and then I spoke to Vladimir Tutus, the chief of the SJB, because the

9 first information I got was that there had been an unfair arrest of the

10 members. I received information from Mr. Tutus and I said, Well, if that

11 is the case, then they should stay in detention.

12 After that, there were those unpleasant activities and their

13 illegal freeing, the illegal liberation. But later on, I think that

14 there was -- that there were proceedings before a regular court. It must

15 be somewhere in the documents that, after this --

16 Q. Well, yes --

17 A. -- the procedure was initiated and the judiciary bodies dealt

18 with it.

19 Q. Yes. Well, in fact, we've already looked at, the document for

20 the identification cards. But although a criminal report was launched,

21 they were never prosecuted, were they, ever?

22 A. I don't know that. I don't know how the whole thing ended, from

23 the judiciary aspect.

24 Q. Let's go back to the document you were looking at with

25 Mr. Krgovic, which is at your tab 48, and it's 2D63. It's the one with

Page 25798

1 your writing on it, in part. Oh, no, sorry. It's the one with your

2 writing on it.

3 MS. KORNER: This is the typed-up version of it. I'm sorry, we

4 need to go back -- I think it's P10 ... sorry. That's the typed-up

5 version of the document we were looking at.

6 It's P -- all right. I think -- I think it's easier because I

7 know where this one is. So can you go, please, to -- can we have up on

8 the screen, have the document at 48.

9 Q. This is the simply the typed version of the one that you were

10 talking about earlier.

11 A. Give me a moment. 48?

12 Q. This is the typed --

13 A. Yes. Here it is.

14 Q. Yeah. And it shows what happened to the special police

15 detachment members thereof. If we go to number 13, Mr. Boskan, who was

16 the first of these people, was wounded in a bar -- Slavonia

17 Territorial Defence.

18 A. This here -- yes, this means that they left our area and went to

19 the TO of Slavonia.

20 Q. Yes. This is exactly -- what this document does is show what

21 happened to members of the special unit after the unit was wound up.

22 Number 24, please, which is the gentleman who you asked me to

23 identify where he was on the list, he went off to Tajfun.

24 Now 42, please, which is the next page in B/C/S.

25 A. This is not a company. This is a military post number.

Page 25799

1 Stojan Bilajac went to military post number 7002 -- or 7007.

2 Q. You know what Tajfun was, don't you?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Number 42, Mr. Dragojevic, who was the second accused person on

5 that criminal charge, he went off to a military post, is that right? So

6 it doesn't appear anything happened to him.

7 A. Well, it -- this clearly shows that they were kicked out from the

8 platoon. And the military accepted people although they had been kicked

9 out elsewhere and there were proceedings pending against them, but that

10 was no obstacle.

11 Q. First of all, it doesn't show they were kicked out at all because

12 this is what happened to everybody after the special police were wound

13 up, wasn't it, including -- your name appears on this list, as does

14 Mr. Ecim's.

15 It's got nothing to do with being kicked out. It is simply

16 somebody noting down where these people went once the platoon was wound

17 up. That's it, isn't it?

18 A. If he wasn't kicked out, then there must have been a new official

19 ID because his old one had been taken off him. I stand by my statement

20 that he was kicked out.

21 Q. All right. And number 79 is Mr. Jokic, who is the last person on

22 that. And it's at page 4 in English.

23 He goes off to a military post, doesn't he?

24 A. This is that it's the 1st Armoured Battalion. Yes.

25 Q. So, clearly, none of those three people who had been arrested and

Page 25800

1 been broken out, at this stage anyhow, when this list was prepared in

2 1993, had been prosecuted for anything, had they?

3 A. The proceedings were initiated in 1992. You may not know, but

4 our judiciary is very slow and overburdened with cases, so that years

5 elapse until anything is done, before people are summoned to appear, and,

6 of course, you can't hold somebody in detention for ten years for a crime

7 about which there is specific information. The regular procedure was

8 conducted by the SJB under the law and in accordance with its powers.

9 Q. And, lastly, Mr. Dusan Dragojevic, number 45, who was the fourth

10 person with Mr. Boskan, Jokic, and Dragoljevic [phoen]. He actually went

11 off to the MUP special police, didn't he?

12 A. It says here that he is registered with the special police

13 detachment.

14 Q. Hmm. He went off to -- sorry. He went to the new one, didn't

15 he? The one that was created under -- ended up under Karisik.

16 A. It is possible. I don't know. I cannot confirm that. I first

17 have to look at what it says here.

18 Q. Well, never mind. Right. Now, please, let's have a look at the

19 document that will you find at number 36, and which is P1295.25.

20 Now I accept entirely, sir, that you won't have seen this. It's

21 a 1st Krajina Corps report dated the 18th of August. Can you have a look

22 under number 3: Situation on the ground.

23 "In addition to pronounced activity by extreme Muslim and

24 Croatian groups, our soldiers returning from the battle-field are

25 increasingly often retaliating and exacting revenge on Muslim and Croat

Page 25801

1 families suspected of having some of their members amongst the Ustashas

2 or Green Berets.

3 "Foremost in taking revenge are former members of the CZB and

4 special detachments."

5 Now I'm not sure, nor was the translator, what -- do you know

6 what the CZB is?

7 A. I don't know. Members of the CZB?

8 Q. You don't know what it is either.

9 A. I don't know what this stands for. Believe me, I don't know.

10 Q. All right. Did you hear any reports, given this is Celinac which

11 was right bang next door to Banja Luka, of former members of the special

12 detachments taking revenge?

13 A. I didn't have that information.

14 Q. And I'm just reminded that it is -- shows that Jokic and

15 Dragojevic received pay for -- there's a document which we looked at

16 before. If they were suspended or sent out of way, having committed

17 these offences, sent to the military, would they have been paid by the

18 police?

19 A. Well, the agreement was to pay off everyone as at the

20 31st of January, so distinction was made. However, as of mid of that

21 month, they were beyond our competence, but it was agreed nevertheless,

22 that everybody should be paid up to the 31st of January. So everyone who

23 appears on this list received their pay. Because the proceedings that

24 they were the subject of were still in progress. And I'm talking about

25 prosecution and criminal proceedings. According to the labour law, they

Page 25802

1 are entitled to a monthly salary regardless of the fact that proceedings

2 were conducted against them.

3 Q. It's been translated as you saying the 31st of January. You

4 don't mean that, though, do you, you mean August?

5 A. No, no. 31st of August. I probably misspoke or maybe it was

6 mistranslated. But, yeah, it is possible that I said that.

7 Anyway, it's the 31st of August.

8 Q. Could you have a look now, please, two more documents to show on

9 this. In fact, maybe even one. The document you'll find at number 3,

10 which is P97.

11 Again, this is the Kotor Varos Crisis Staff. 21st of August,

12 1992. Item 2:

13 "President Djekanovic pointed out matters and problems to be

14 solved, to the effect that the pressure and the provocation by certain

15 members of the special forces ... directed against Muslim and Croat

16 families in order to compel them to leave should be stopped."

17 The special police went on, didn't they, throughout August, until

18 they were properly disbanded at a later stage?

19 A. You're obviously trying to infer something that has no base.

20 Q. Sorry. To whom was Mr. Djekanovic referring when he stated that

21 "the pressure and the provocation by certain members of the special

22 forces ..."

23 The only people who had the name "specials" was the police,

24 wasn't it?

25 A. It says here: Provocations by individuals from among the ranks

Page 25806

1 it up very quickly, please, P76. It's -- probably won't find it in your

2 bundle unless it's been added. It's 12C.

3 A. It's not there.

4 Q. No, well, you'll have to a have a look at it - it's very short -

5 on the screen.

6 A. Very well.

7 Q. Where Radulovic says it was the SDS who's going to start an

8 operation with the aim of taking over power and settling ethnic tensions.

9 Whilst this operation is going on, individuals who are in possession of

10 unlicensed arms should be handing those arms in. The operation should be

11 carried out in a synchronised manner, with the help of the Banja Luka

12 Security Services Centre.

13 Are you telling the Court that you didn't know that it was the

14 SDS in Kotor Varos planning to take over and that it was the CSB that was

15 going to be there largely to help out?

16 A. Well, this report probably comes from the connections that the

17 Milos Group had with Colonel Stevanovic [as interpreted]. Probably at

18 the time when he spoke with them, he gave them this information, but I

19 was not aware of this information.

20 Q. I'm sorry, why should this report come from -- do you mean

21 Colonel Stevilovic?

22 A. Since Radulovic did some odd jobs for the military intelligence

23 service of Yugoslavia, he even had some contacts with Belgrade, it is

24 possible that he had received this information from a higher level, i.e.,

25 from Colonel Stevilovic. But, according to all the activities that were

Page 25807

1 going on at the time, Colonel Stevilovic should have been informed about

2 all the activities and should have been privy to all the plans pertaining

3 not only to this area but to the area of the entire former Yugoslavia,

4 and this had to do with these particular problems.

5 Now, as for this factual takeover, it doesn't say here that this

6 was to be organised by the SDS. He is here positioning himself as

7 somebody who is making suggestions based on the suggestions received from

8 us and from other sources. So it says soon an action of takeover of

9 power by the SDS will take over which means in the aftermath of the

10 elections.

11 Q. Yes, we can all -- we can all -- no, please, sir. This is

12 June 1992. This is the day before, or two days before the takeover,

13 sorry. It's got nothing to do with the multi-party elections, this, has

14 it?

15 A. It has. It does have. Because it was said at the time that

16 power and authority should be established in line with the results of the

17 elections. And, as far as I know, the SDS was victorious in Kotor Varos.

18 However, the authorities were not established. Because there

19 were some obstructions in that respect. Maybe the former coalition

20 partners failed to reach agreement.

21 Q. Yes. Well, let's not go into that.

22 Were you aware that either the day before or on the same day that

23 this note was produced by Radulovic, there was a meeting at the

24 Banja Luka CSB to discuss what was going to happen in the takeover? Not

25 at the military, sir, the Banja Luka CSB.

Page 25808

1 A. I don't know how it could have been the CSB, the one who would

2 organise that without the military. That would be impossible.

3 Q. Because I'm suggesting to you, sir, I'm suggesting to you that

4 that's what the evidence is until you came along, that it is clear that

5 the major role in this operation was played by the Banja Luka special

6 police together with the army, but they had a lesser role, I suggest,

7 than the special police, and that, as I've said to you more than once,

8 what you're telling this Court about Colonel Stevilovic and the

9 organisation is not the case.

10 So that is why I suggest there was this meeting in the Banja Luka

11 CSB which was attended by Mr. Djekanovic, Mr. Komljenovic,

12 Lieutenant-Colonel Peulic, Mr. Zupljanin, and others. Were you there?

13 A. I don't remember such a meeting. Anyway, I don't think I would

14 have attended it.

15 But there is something that you refuse to accept. Two platoons

16 make up 60 men and it cannot be a bigger power than the army that

17 Mr. Peulic and other structures such as the Territorial Defence, the

18 civilian protection, and the reserve police forces of Kotor Varos had at

19 the time. Their numbers were ten-fold the one of the 60.

20 Q. The takeover on the 9th, when you went there, was -- succeeded

21 without a shot being fired, didn't it?

22 A. The takeover of power did not occur on the 9th but I think on the

23 11th. And there were no combat operations. We entered the town without

24 any fighting and any shooting. I went to the offices of the CSB --

25 Q. Yes. Don't --

Page 25809

1 A. -- without a single shot being --

2 Q. No, stop. Stop. I think there's a mistranslation. I think you

3 meant the SJB.

4 I don't want -- all I want to establish is: You agree there was

5 no resistance. That's it.

6 A. There was no resistance.

7 Q. And thereafter, a process of arrests went on, didn't it?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And after the non-Serbs had been arrested, those who had not fled

10 into the woods, they were taken to various places, and they were beaten

11 up, weren't they?

12 A. First of all, not all of them left. I already said that a large

13 number of Muslims and Croats left. But if there hadn't been any Muslims

14 or Croats, I wouldn't be able to talk to those 50 Muslims in Kotor Varos,

15 which means that there were people who remained behind. Obviously, since

16 I spoke with them. And I'm talking about Kotor Varos alone. I couldn't

17 talk to the walls. I talked to live people and they remained behind,

18 seeking protection from the extremists from their own ethnic community.

19 Q. Do I understand you correctly to say that you organised the

20 return of weapons to non-Serbs to defend themselves against their --

21 their own extremists?

22 Is that what you're telling the Court?

23 A. Precisely so. And I assert that weapons were distributed to the

24 citizens of Kotor precisely for that reason because they were being

25 threatened by their fellow Muslims and -- members of their community --

Page 25810

1 Q. All right. Although, as we saw, one of the purposes of this

2 operation, from the note that Mr. Radulovic wrote, was to collect

3 weapons, wasn't it?

4 A. Yes. The plan was to collect the illegal weapons. If you have

5 about 400 automatic rifles in such a small town, obviously indicates that

6 something was wrong, particularly because all these weapons had been

7 taken away without the approval of people who were in charge of them,

8 that is to say, that the Territorial Defence and the reserve police took

9 the weapons without the approval of the respective commanders. In other

10 words, it was stolen.

11 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...

12 A. I won't mention the weapons that was bought.

13 Q. Yeah. By this period, the 11th of June, the Territorial Defence

14 had been transformed into a light brigade, hadn't it?

15 A. I don't know that. I was not in such structures where I would

16 know something like that, whether it was resolved at that time or at a

17 later time.

18 Q. And indeed, one of the commanders of the light brigade was

19 Stojan Zupljanin's cousin, I think it is, Captain Slobodan Zupljanin,

20 wasn't he?

21 A. I think he was a relative. I think they were related.

22 Q. Now can we go back, please, to beatings.

23 You know, don't you, that people were being beaten up?

24 A. This is what I said. When they were brought in, they were

25 physically abused.

Page 25811

1 Q. No. They were being beaten up in the police station, first of

2 all, weren't they? To your certain knowledge because I suggest to you,

3 sir, you visited people in the cells. Or the rooms in which they were

4 being held.

5 A. It seems that you're not quite aware of it. In this translation

6 it says "prisoners." They were not prisoners. They were detainees.

7 Second, I said that people had abused their authority during this

8 incident and that this happened a number of times in the hallway, not in

9 the rooms, in the hallway. When you go in, there was physical abuse of

10 men. This is something that I have said. It's not in accordance with

11 the law. It happened. These groups were not under anyone's control.

12 There were a lot of members from the local area. I didn't know who was

13 who, but the locals knew, so they were local men.

14 Q. I'm suggesting to you, sir, first of all, that the beatings were

15 taking place by police officers, special police and members of the SJB,

16 not unknown groups of people who suddenly appeared in the police station.

17 That's the truth, isn't it?

18 A. No.

19 Q. What action did you take to stop the people being beaten up in

20 front of you in the police station by whoever it was?

21 A. Several times I intervened because of the noise that could be

22 heard in the hallway and because of these things that were happening.

23 However, I had no authority over these men. Certainly, in my

24 presence, in the room where I was conducting interviews, no one was hit.

25 Q. You see, I'm not suggesting you personally hit anybody, sir. But

Page 25812

1 what I am suggesting is that as you went into these rooms, people were

2 complaining to you, first of all, that they were being beaten up.

3 A. That's not true. I asked people, everyone with whom I conducted

4 an interview, I wrote down their particulars, their name, their

5 particulars, and asked them whether they were beaten or not. And I wrote

6 this if force had been implemented against someone, I did this as a

7 professional policeman, and this is a normal procedure to be conducted

8 like this. Some of them did not want to say that they were beaten but it

9 was obvious that they had been beaten.

10 Q. Yes. There was being held at one stage, wasn't there, in the

11 police station, when you were there, a woman?

12 A. I can't recall.

13 Q. And --

14 A. I did not interview any woman.

15 Q. No. I'm suggesting, sir, not that you interviewed her but that

16 she was being held in the police station, with men in the same room.

17 A. I didn't see it. Maybe it wasn't that first day when I was there

18 in that role.

19 Q. No, you were the -- forget about --

20 A. I was there. I really didn't see a woman. I didn't talk to any

21 woman. I conducted interviews with men who had weapons. I didn't see

22 any woman with weapons.

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)