Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 26009

 1                           Friday, 18 November 2011

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Good morning

 6     everyone in and around the courtroom.  This is case number IT-08-91-T.

 7     The Prosecutor versus Mico Stanisic and Stojan Zupljanin.

 8             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.  May we have the

 9     appearances today, please.

10             MS. KORNER:  Morning, Your Honours.  Joanna Korner and

11     Sebastiaan van Hooydonk as cases manager this morning.

12             MR. ZECEVIC:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Slobodan Zecevic,

13     Slobodan Cvijetic and Ms. Annemarie McNulty appearing for Stanisic

14     Defence this morning.  Thank you very much.

15             MR. KRGOVIC:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Dragan Krgovic and

16     Miroslav Cuskic appearing for Zupljanin Defence.

17             JUDGE HALL:  Do counsel have any preliminary matters to raise

18     before we deal with the next witness?

19             MS. KORNER:  Your Honour, no.  It seems to me wholly unlikely

20     that the witness will take the whole of this morning's hearings so there

21     are a number of administrative matters which I've alerted the Defence to

22     and I would like to raise when he is finished.  And I hope Your Honours

23     are aware of them.  I did send an e-mail it to the Legal Officer.  Or,

24     rather, she was on the same e-mail.

25             MR. ZECEVIC:  I have a matter, because Ms. Korner will take it at

Page 26010

 1     the end of the session, I propose that I raise it as well at the end of

 2     the session so we can finish with the witness.

 3             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.  So could we go into closed session so

 4     the witness can be escorted into court.

 5             MS. KORNER:  I understood the witness didn't want protective

 6     measures any longer.

 7             JUDGE HALL:  The Chamber has to satisfy itself of that.  So we

 8     are going to take this step by step.

 9             MS. KORNER:  Your Honour is quite right, I'm sorry.

10                           [Closed session]

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23                           [Open session]

24             THE REGISTRAR:  We are in open session, Your Honours.

25             JUDGE HALL:  Now that we are in open session, I repeat what I

Page 26011

 1     said a short while ago because the public is now able to hear the

 2     proceedings.  They are still not able to recognise your face or identify

 3     your voice because of the existing protective measures which had been

 4     sought on your behalf and granted.  Since that time, we have been

 5     informed that you no longer wish to have those protective measures in

 6     place.  Would you be so kind as to confirm to the Chamber that this --

 7     that our understanding -- whether our understanding is correct?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The Trial Chamber has understood my

 9     application well.  Let me explain.  In August earlier this year when the

10     investigators in Banja Luka told me that I was to appear in this trial

11     and asked me if I wanted any protective measures, I expressed my wishes

12     for protective measures on the spur of the moment.  Later on as I gave it

13     some thought, I concluded that I may have spoken hastily because there

14     isn't anything that I would like to conceal from the public or that I

15     would fear, and I would wish these protective measures to be rescinded.

16             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you, sir.

17             The Chamber, therefore, makes the following order:  During the

18     proofing session of witness SZ-020, the witness present on the stand, it

19     emerges that the witness decided he no longer needs any protective

20     measures in order to testify, although he had previously had requested

21     protective measures.  In its decision of the 6th of December, 2011, the

22     Chamber had granted him the use of pseudonym, image and voice distortion.

23     In light of the fact that the witness has given his consent to testifying

24     publicly, pursuant to Rule 75(K), the Trial Chamber rescinds the

25     protective measures granted to him after duly noting the requirements of

Page 26012

 1     Rule 75(J).  He will now be referred to by his name in the course of the

 2     trials and other related proceedings.  And that order takes effect

 3     immediately.

 4             Thank you, usher.  Would you please now hand the card to the

 5     witness so that he might make the solemn declaration.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

 7     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

 8                           WITNESS:  NIJAZ SMAJLOVIC

 9                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

10             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you, sir.  You may resume your seat.

11             The solemn declaration that you have just made imposes upon you

12     an obligation to give evidence truthfully and should you fail to do so,

13     this Chamber is -- this Tribunal is empowered by its statute and rules of

14     procedure to impose the penalties for perjury, should you give false or

15     misleading testimony.  Would you begin by telling us your name, please.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Nijaz Smajlovic.

17             JUDGE HALL:  And what is your date of birth, ethnicity, and

18     present or former profession?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The 10th of June, 1954.  Bosniak.

20     Bosnian.  Currently deputy director of the police, of the Ministry of the

21     Interior therefore, of Republika Srpska.

22             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.  Have you testified previously before

23     this Tribunal or before any of the courts in the countries that comprise

24     the former Yugoslavia?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not in these cases, no.

Page 26013

 1             JUDGE HALL:  You have been called by counsel representing one of

 2     the two accused on trial before this Chamber, that is counsel for the

 3     accused Mr. Zupljanin.  It is expected that your testimony will be

 4     completed by the time the -- by the time the Chamber rises for the day at

 5     1.45 and counsel for Mr. Zupljanin will begin by asking you questions,

 6     then counsel for his co-accused will have an opportunity to cross-examine

 7     you, followed by counsel for the Prosecution, and then counsel calling

 8     you would have the right to re-examine.  The Bench itself may at that

 9     stage or, indeed, at any earlier stage have -- also be able to ask

10     questions and unless there's something -- some question which you have

11     which I may be able to answer by way of explanation I would invite,

12     counsel for Mr. Zupljanin, I think it's Mr. Krgovic, to begin his

13     examination-in-chief.

14             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

15                           Examination by Mr. Krgovic:

16        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Smajlovic.

17        A.   Good morning.

18        Q.   In answer to the questions put to you by the Chamber, you gave us

19     some personal background.  Now I'd like to hear from you certain

20     information about your professional background.  What degrees do you

21     have?

22        A.   I have a degree in law and I graduated from the law school in

23     Banja Luka in 1992 and I had some also undergraduate studies that I

24     completed in 1990.

25        Q.   Can you tell us when you began working for the police?

Page 26014

 1        A.   It was on the 1st of November, 1999 [as interpreted].

 2        Q.   I apologise, can you just repeat the year?

 3        A.   The 1st of November, 1990.

 4        Q.   And what were your initial duties in the police?

 5        A.   I started working as deputy commander of the police station

 6     charged with traffic safety in Gradiska.

 7        Q.   Did you ever perform any other duties, and if so, which year was

 8     that?

 9        A.   I stayed in that job until May of 1993, I believe.  At that point

10     I was inspector for crimes in traffic, infractions in traffic.  And then

11     in 1995 I worked as assistant commander of the police station charged

12     with general duties.  In other words, I moved from the traffic department

13     to the general duty department, as it were, in Bosanska Gradiska.

14             Subsequently, in 1999 in the spring of 1999, always in the same

15     station, I became deputy commander of the general duty police station

16     where I stayed until June of 2001 when I was assigned to be assistant

17     commander of the Security Services Centre in Banja Luka, and that was

18     until 2003, and in that same centre, I became deputy chief of a public

19     security centre.  That was until October of 2004 when I became chief of

20     the police administration of the Ministry of Interior of

21     Republika Srpska.

22             Last year I was chosen and selected as -- to be deputy director

23     of the police of the MUP of Republika Srpska in a public competition and

24     that's the duty that I'm currently performing.

25        Q.   One clarification.  In reference to 2001 there's the

Page 26015

 1     Security Services Centre mentioned in Banja Luka.  What was it called in

 2     2001?

 3        A.   Public security centre.

 4        Q.   And do you know which year was it renamed public security centre?

 5        A.   I don't know exactly.

 6        Q.   In relation to the war-time period?

 7        A.   Well, several years after the war it must have been.  At the time

 8     when state security was taken out of the organisation of the Ministry of

 9     the Interior by law.

10        Q.   Mr. Smajlovic, or rather --

11             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Can the witness be given a hard

12     copy of his statement because I wanted to elicit certain clarifications.

13     And can we call up in e-court 65 ter --

14             MS. KORNER:  Sorry, I'm not clear on the basis in which the

15     witness can just have his statement in front of him.  He has been called

16     live, I understand it.  Not 92 ter.

17             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] No, he is called as a 92 bis

18     witness and I'd like him to clarify certain issues that he gave in his

19     statement.

20             MS. KORNER:  Sorry, he is not a 92 bis witness.  He is a 92

21     bis -- you applied for 92 bis, he was ordered to be called.  I mean, I

22     don't have any strong feelings, Your Honour, but at the moment it's my

23     view that as the witness is giving evidence live, he should give his

24     evidence and not just have his statement, but it's a matter for

25     Your Honours.

Page 26016

 1                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 2             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] If I may add, this witness has been

 3     called as a 92 ter witness, so I should actually ask him if he would give

 4     the same answers if asked the same questions, so he has to confirm his

 5     statement, that's why I misunderstood what Ms. Korner had to say.

 6             JUDGE HALL:  Of course, Mr. Krgovic.  Please proceed.

 7             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] 65 ter 8D2 in e-court.

 8        Q.   Sir, you were able to have a look at this statement.  Is that the

 9     statement that you signed?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   Do you stand by the statement you signed?

12        A.   Yes, I do.

13        Q.   I will have several questions for you.  Can you tell me, when was

14     it the first time that Stojan Zupljanin's Defence got in touch with you

15     with a view to you giving your evidence?

16        A.   It was in January earlier this year that I was first contacted by

17     investigators in Banja Luka.

18        Q.   Who contacted you specifically?

19        A.   It was Mirko Bojnovic, specifically.

20        Q.   And what did Mr. Bojnovic have to ask of you?

21        A.   Well, he told me the commonly known fact that there's a trial

22     against Stojan Zupljanin conducted here and that in 1991, 1992, 1993 when

23     I used to work in the police station in Bosanska Gradiska, he was

24     performing his duties and he wanted to know if we had ever been in any

25     dealings formerly, at various meetings, and my answer was affirmative,

Page 26017

 1     that, yes, as assistant commander, I attended these meetings.  Therefore,

 2     he asked if I would be willing to testify about his character as it were

 3     and his treatment of the various employees of the MUP and I agreed.

 4        Q.   When did Zupljanin's Defence contact you next?

 5        A.   I think it was in late January or early February of this year.

 6     As agreed with investigators, a written statement was drawn up.  It's the

 7     statement that is before me now.  And I signed it.

 8        Q.   Were you given a chance to review the statement at the time?

 9        A.   Yes.  My words were translated into this written statement.  I

10     read it and signed it.  That's it.

11        Q.   Did you then confirm or authenticate the statement?

12        A.   Yes, by affixing my signature.  It happened in late March and it

13     does say here specifically on the 22nd of March that a lady arrived from

14     The Hague, from this Tribunal, in other words, and it was in her presence

15     that I authenticated the statement.

16        Q.   Were you then again contacted by the Defence for Stojan Zupljanin

17     in the course of the summer?

18        A.   Yes, sometime in July we had another meeting where I was told

19     that the Prosecution of this Tribunal found my statement interesting and

20     that they would like to get in touch with me on these issues.  I inquired

21     and was told that it was up to me to decide freely if I wanted to meet up

22     with them, and then under those circumstances, I decided that I would not

23     get in touch with them.

24        Q.   Did investigators of the Zupljanin Defence get in touch with you

25     at a later date concerning protective measures?

Page 26018

 1        A.   Yes.  In August I was told that I would have to appear before the

 2     Chamber in person, and that I could opt for protective measures, which I

 3     chose at the time.  Though, as I say, subsequently I realised that there

 4     was no need for that because I don't have to hide behind my statement.

 5     And it was in August, I think, that a written statement on these issues

 6     was made, or a note.

 7        Q.   You mean the investigator made a note of this?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   After that were you contacted by the Zupljanin Defence in this

10     autumn concerning your interview to the OTP?

11        A.   Yes, in early October I was on a business trip and it so happened

12     that I was in the Netherlands but I had to return and couldn't do it

13     then.  Upon my return I asked Mr. Bojnovic what this was about and he

14     told me that the OTP insisted on interviewing me, but since I wasn't

15     obliged to agree, I declined.  There was an official note made about this

16     and the next thing that happened was the summons to come here on the 15th

17     or the 16th so that nothing in writing was ever produced because of the

18     shortage of time, I suppose.

19        Q.   Upon your arrival in The Hague, did you talk to me the day before

20     yesterday?

21        A.   Yes.  On the day when I arrived, on Monday, you again pointed out

22     this possibility to me and I can only repeat I don't consider it very

23     important and I declined once more.

24        Q.   Did you ask whether you should meet the Stanisic Defence?

25        A.   Oh, yes, you told me that the Stanisic Defence also wanted to

Page 26019

 1     talk to me and I declined again.

 2        Q.   Mr. Smajlovic, in your statement you mention the structure, or

 3     rather, the ethnic composition of the Gradiska police station.  And in

 4     paragraph 3 you gave the details, so I need not go into that.  But I

 5     would like to clarify something.  Do tell us before that when you

 6     arrived, it was noted here that you arrived on Monday.  When did you

 7     really arrive?

 8        A.   Oh, yes, I am sorry, it was Wednesday.  On Monday I was contacted

 9     by somebody from The Hague and I left on Wednesday and arrived on the

10     same day.

11        Q.   You were speaking about the ethnic composition of the police in

12     April 1992.  Did the ethnic composition of the MUP change?  Did any

13     colleagues of other ethnicities leave?  I'm not interested in a very

14     detailed account but only whether there was a change in the ethnic

15     composition?

16        A.   At the traffic police station there were some 26 to 28 officers,

17     including the senior officers.  There were very few non-Serbs but I was

18     one.  There were three more police officers, so that would make a total

19     of four.  Throughout these ugly events, I mean the war, one more police

20     officer remained and in the meantime people were leaving.  If you are

21     asking about the overall ethnic makeup of the police in Gradiska,

22     including the general duty police station which has the premise -- its

23     premises in the same building and has jurisdiction in the Gradiska

24     municipality, I am not sure how many non-Serb officers there were, but

25     maybe up to 20 per cent according to my estimate.  And the total number

Page 26020

 1     of police officers of that station was around 60.  Certainly during the

 2     year that number dwindled.

 3        Q.   In paragraph 4 you speak about Mr. Zupljanin.  These meetings,

 4     collegiums or whatever they were called, when did you begin to attend

 5     these meetings and during which period and until which time did you go

 6     there?

 7        A.   Well, let me explain.  I said that I began to work for the police

 8     on the 1st of November, 1990 as deputy commander.  A police station is

 9     headed by the commander.  Whenever a commander for any reason cannot do

10     something, it is my duty as deputy to step in.  If you are asking me

11     about the meetings of the senior officers of the security services, in

12     1991 I went to these meetings too and in 1992 not more than twice.  It

13     was in the first half of 1992.

14        Q.   The event you described when Mr. Zupljanin spoke to you and told

15     you that nobody must harm you, was it before or after that meeting?

16        A.   I think that must have been in late April 1992.  There was a

17     meeting about the general security situation and other technical matters.

18     This was an informal conversation after a meeting.  The then chief of the

19     public security station, Mr. Vesic, was also present.  The statement was

20     Mr. Zupljanin's reaction to my conduct in the police and everything I was

21     saying when the MUP of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina was

22     being established, which today is the MUP of the RS.

23             I don't know if a more detailed explanation is required, what

24     kind of conversations these were.

25        Q.   Well, tell us what kind of conversation did you have in the field

Page 26021

 1     or at the station?

 2        A.   Well, on that day - I'm not sure about the date - there was a

 3     meeting of all public security staff in Gradiska, and we were informed

 4     that I think as of the 1st of April, 1992, and the meeting was

 5     immediately after that, a decision was passed to establish the

 6     Ministry of the Interior of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina

 7     which was a consequence of political events and talks in

 8     Bosnia-Herzegovina and beyond about the fate of Bosnia-Herzegovina and

 9     its people.

10             And since everything functioned, everything worked.  The

11     authorities both at municipal level and in Bosnia-Herzegovina and the

12     first significant changes were those in the police.  My attitude and what

13     I also stated publicly was that we, in Gradiska, should not divide along

14     ethnic lines because if that happened unwanted consequences would

15     probably come about as we were -- had already been able to see in some

16     parts of Eastern Bosnia.  And I was appealing to my friends, neighbours,

17     and everybody who lived in town to behave accordingly.

18             The leadership of the station gave the choice to everybody in the

19     station, Serbs and non-Serbs alike, what they would opt for.  We were

20     still wearing the red star on our uniform hats and the only change at

21     that moment was to substitute that red star with the colours of

22     Republika Srpska.  And all staff were given ten days or so whether they

23     would accept that or not, and the regulations required us to give a

24     solemn declaration to continue working for the Ministry of the Interior

25     of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina.  It's much like the one I

Page 26022

 1     made this morning.  And that was it.

 2             After that the commander of the police station, the general duty

 3     police station, Dragoljub Novakovic and the commander of the traffic

 4     police station where I worked, Momir Topic, and I as his deputy, and the

 5     general duty police station didn't have a deputy at the time.  The three

 6     of us, in agreement with the chief of the station, Vesic, had made a plan

 7     to talk to our staff, especially non-Serbs, and ask them to remain in the

 8     police because it's never too late for divisions and problems.  We tried

 9     to calm down the situation and wanted to avoid the citizens of Gradiska,

10     irrespective of their ethnicity, to feel unsafe, and that's what we did.

11     We talked to people, sometimes they did it on their own, sometimes I did

12     it on their own and sometimes we did it together.  And those were all

13     fair conversations.  Some staff remained, others didn't.

14        Q.   When did you talk to these people to ask them to stay with the

15     police?

16        A.   I remember that I went to see some five or six at their homes and

17     with others I talked to at the station.

18        Q.   Do you know whether there were any pressures on these people to

19     leave the MUP of the RS?

20        A.   Believe me, I don't know.  I never cared much for politics.  I

21     never sided with any party.  Although the police wasn't allowed to

22     affiliate itself politically, I still don't know who had sympathy for

23     who.

24             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have no more

25     questions of this witness.  Your Honours, I would just like to tender

Page 26023

 1     this statement after the OTP's cross-examination.

 2             MR. ZECEVIC:  No cross-examination for this witness.  Thank you.

 3             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.

 4             Yes, Ms. Korner.

 5                           Cross-examination by Ms. Korner:

 6        Q.   When Mr. Bojnovic came to speak to you, was he somebody you knew

 7     from the time when he worked for the CSB in Banja Luka?

 8        A.   I met Mr. Bojnovic when I began to work at the CSB, which means

 9     in 2001 or 2002.

10        Q.   And did Mr. Bojnovic explain to you why he had come to see you?

11     Why you in particular, to give evidence?

12        A.   He didn't explain much.  I've just told you when I first met him.

13     At the time he was chief of one of the departments.  In our official and

14     private contacts we probably spoke about the time before the war and it

15     is possible that he came to see me due to these conversations that we had

16     had before.

17        Q.   Did you have any direct contact by telephone with Mr. Zupljanin?

18        A.   Never.

19        Q.   Did you hesitate at all before you agreed to give evidence about

20     Mr. Zupljanin?

21        A.   I didn't hesitate at all.

22        Q.   Why?  Is that a because he was a good friend of yours or because

23     he protected you during the war, or for whatever other reason?

24        A.   Mr. Zupljanin was chief of the centre which means that he was not

25     a friend of mine.  We didn't know each other personally.  We had official

Page 26024

 1     contacts.  He had a register of his people in the field and he may have

 2     noticed me at one of the meetings.  When he said what he said, I don't

 3     think that he would have recognised me on that occasion.  He was actually

 4     talking to Mr. Vesic, but given the opportunity I introduced myself.

 5     However, there is -- we don't really know each other directly, either

 6     privately or officially, because I was one of many senior officers.

 7        Q.   All right.  The reason -- I'll explain why I'm asking you whether

 8     you hesitated.  You come from Sanski Most, don't you?

 9        A.   Yes, I do.

10        Q.   And Sanski Most was one of the areas which came under the area of

11     responsibility of the CSB Banja Luka in 1992, wasn't it?

12        A.   I think so.

13        Q.   So you spent your whole life since 1990 in the police.  Are you

14     saying you didn't realise that Sanski Most comes within the area of

15     responsibility of the CSB Banja Luka?

16             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Could Ms. Korner please specify the

17     period she is referring to in her question.  She did say 1992 earlier on

18     but is 1992 still the period referred to in the second question because

19     there were changes.

20             MS. KORNER:  I really would be grateful if I didn't have

21     objections such as this.

22        Q.   So I'll repeat the question.  You are aware, aren't you, fully,

23     that in 1992 Sanski Most came under the responsibility, the authority, of

24     the CSB in Banja Luka?

25        A.   In 1978 I left Sanski Most and have since lived in Gradiska.  I

Page 26025

 1     was a football player.  I lived there with my wife and family until 2001

 2     or 2002 when I moved to Banja Luka.  I got a job there.  The fact that I

 3     was born in Sanski Most has nothing to do with my professional work, I

 4     believe.  That's why I gave this answer.  I have links with

 5     Bosanska Gradiska.

 6        Q.   Yes.  When you attended meetings, as you've told the Court you

 7     did, up until about May of 1992 at the CSB Banja Luka, and that's how you

 8     met Mr. Zupljanin, were you not aware that at these collegiums the

 9     representatives of Sanski Most were attending as well?

10        A.   Those were meetings at which 50 to 60 people were present.  The

11     invitation to a meeting only came to the organisational unit that was to

12     respond.  That's why I don't see any problem with my statement.  I said I

13     think so, but I might as well say, yes.  But I did not know the people

14     from the field who belonged to other organisational units, so that is who

15     were from other towns.  Until 1990, I did something else altogether.  In

16     late 1990, I joined the police force and I literally had no time to get

17     acquainted even with the hierarchy in traffic safety, let alone the

18     personnel structure in other municipalities.  The centre covered

19     Bosanska Krajina, which is an extensive area, with many organisational

20     units.

21        Q.   When the investigator came to see you about whether you want

22     protective measures -- wanted protective measures in August, you told

23     him, didn't you, that you were born in Sanski Most, you still owned

24     property in Sanski Most, and you go there occasionally to visit family

25     and friends; is that right?  Was that a correct statement by you?

Page 26026

 1        A.   I have two sisters and a brother in Sanski Most and my wife's

 2     family is there, and it's true that I go there occasionally.  Well,

 3     simply speaking, you know, I took a decision rashly but why back out now

 4     because I think that it isn't important in the least because there's no

 5     danger to me or my immediate or extended family.  I could have stayed but

 6     there are no problems, really.

 7        Q.   I'm not at the moment dealing with why you wanted the protective

 8     measures rescinded.  I'm simply dealing with you and your knowledge of

 9     Sanski Most.  You are, are you not, I aware of what happened to your

10     Muslim and non-Serb colleagues generally in Sanski Most in 1992?

11        A.   I do not know, madam.

12        Q.   Really?  You've not heard about any of the events that took place

13     in Sanski Most in 1992?  Is that what you are telling the Court?

14        A.   Not at the time.  That is, in 1992 and so on I didn't have such

15     contacts.  After the war, yes, informal -- or through informal

16     conversations, but I have a very superficial knowledge.

17        Q.   Really.  So you know nothing about Bajtonika [sic], is that what

18     you are saying?  It's no good looking at counsel.

19             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] The last thing you said was not

20     interpreted.  I apologise.

21             MS. KORNER:  Well, I saw him looking over as Defence counsel.

22        Q.   Are you telling the Court, sir, you know nothing about Bajtonika,

23     the prison?

24             MR. ZECEVIC:  Betonirka prison, Betonirka.

25             MS. KORNER:

Page 26027

 1             MR. ZECEVIC:  I was trying to be helpful because I see that the

 2     interpreters didn't understand what you meant.

 3             MS. KORNER:  Well I'm surprised after all this time and the

 4     number of times I've said it, but never mind.

 5        Q.   Sir, is that what you are telling the Court?

 6        A.   I can say to this Trial Chamber that my contacts with the

 7     citizens of Sanski Most are limited to my family.  My relatives, close or

 8     distant, didn't go to Betonirka and I personally never investigated,

 9     privately or officially.  And for your information, I only went to

10     Sanski Most around 2000 after the war.  All my family had lived abroad

11     from before the war in Germany, Switzerland, and a number -- or more

12     specifically, a sister and a brother of the six of us also left

13     Bosnia-Herzegovina in 1992.  And my wife's family did as well.  And there

14     was no need for me --

15        Q.   Sir, it may be there was no need for you, but I'm asking you as a

16     matter of record, are you telling the Court that you are unaware of the

17     shelling of M ahala in Sanski Most?

18        A.   I am unaware.  You can believe me.  At the time in 1992, the

19     phone lines between towns and municipalities in Bosnia-Herzegovina were

20     disrupted.  I'm talking to you about my feelings and my experience.  My

21     mother was in Sanski Most at the time and so was my brother and my sister

22     and my wife's family and I couldn't contact them, or only very rarely.

23     And I don't even remember how we managed to do that.

24        Q.   Yes.

25        A.   And when they were leaving --

Page 26028

 1        Q.   All right.  I'm not asking -- I'm now asking you whether you are

 2     telling the Court that after the end of the conflict, you heard nothing

 3     about the events that happened in Sanski Most as it affected the non-Serb

 4     population?  Is that what you are telling the Court?

 5        A.   Well, I'm trying to say that I first went there, to Sanski Most

 6     that is, five or six years later and we didn't discuss these things then.

 7     The people I talked to then -- well, and finally, it isn't anything that

 8     I take interest in.  I didn't feel it or experience it the way you are

 9     trying to present it.  I lived in Gradiska with my family, with my wife

10     and children, with my neighbours and friends and so on.

11        Q.   Well, sir, the reason I've been asking you about this is going

12     back to my original question, whether you felt any hesitation in

13     testifying on behalf of Stojan Zupljanin who was in charge of the police

14     area in Sanski Most, and you told me you didn't, so none of these events,

15     you say you knew about?

16        A.   Mr. Zupljanin was not just in charge of Sanski Most.  He was the

17     chief of the centre that covered a large geographic area, including

18     Bosanska Gradiska where I was working.  What I know, what I saw, what I

19     felt, what I heard at meetings, that means objectively and anything that

20     I was told directly, the reaction I had to this was as such, and,

21     therefore, I did not hesitate.

22        Q.   Could you tell us why you declined when you were asked to speak

23     to the Prosecution as a high-ranking member of the Republika Srpska

24     police?

25        A.   I did so because I didn't have the need to do that.  It was not

Page 26029

 1     obligatory, I didn't want to dwell on years that I don't want to

 2     remember.  I don't want to relive the stress just as I'm now.  You are

 3     asking very problematic questions that I have nothing to do with.

 4        Q.   But you were going to relive the stress by giving the evidence

 5     that you gave to the Defence and I'm asking you why you didn't want to

 6     talk to us.

 7        A.   A smaller dose of stress then talking to the

 8     Defence [as interpreted].

 9        Q.   Did you speak to any of your superiors in the Republika Srpska

10     police, for example, Mr. Milosevic, about whether you should refuse to

11     speak to the Prosecution?  Or Mr. Vasic?

12        A.   No, Mr. Milosevic is not my superior, if you are talking about

13     Dragomir Milosevic.

14        Q.   Yes.

15        A.   I am the deputy director and he is my superior.  As with

16     Mr. Vasic, to, certainly not, there was no need to.

17        Q.   But you knew that Mr. Vasic had testified here, didn't you, in

18     this trial?

19        A.   Yes, I knew.

20        Q.   And he -- did you know -- did you ask him whether he had spoken

21     to both the Prosecution and the Defence?

22        A.   No.

23        Q.   So you never took any advice on this at all?

24        A.   I didn't think there was any need to.

25        Q.   And you had no reason, other than you say, stress for not wishing

Page 26030

 1     to speak to the Prosecution?

 2        A.   No other reason.

 3             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, I see there's an apparent conflict

 4     between the answer at 10 and 13.

 5        Q.   You said first of all -- 8, sorry 10.  You said Mr. Milosevic was

 6     not your superior and then you went on to say if you are talking about

 7     Dragomir Milosevic, I'm the deputy director and he is my superior.  Which

 8     is it?

 9        A.   He is not the superior, I'm not talking about Drago but Dragomir,

10     I don't know how it was interpreted that it was said that Drago Milosevic

11     is the deputy chief of the police and I am the deputy director and my

12     position is above the chief of crime police or deputy chief of police,

13     not underneath it.

14        Q.   Right.  So the reality is that from 1992 until today the whole of

15     your police career has been spent in the Republika Srpska police?  That's

16     right, isn't it?

17        A.   Yes, it is.

18        Q.   Well, I want to look at some of the events in Bosanska Gradiska

19     now, to give the context of your remaining with the police during this

20     period.  Can we first of all establish, let's have a look at the map,

21     exactly where Gradiska is.

22             MS. KORNER:  Can we have up, please, 10137.1.  And it's tab 16 of

23     the binder.

24        Q.   Gradiska is the border municipality, is it not, if one looks, one

25     focuses where Banja Luka is, if we can, yes, go in a bit there.  Thank

Page 26031

 1     you.  Bosanska Gradiska is right on the border with Croatia; is that

 2     correct?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   And indeed still has one of the major crossings from Bosnia into

 5     Croatia; that's right, isn't it?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   And we see Banja Luka, the town, and the municipality, and on the

 8     other side Prijedor; is that right?

 9        A.   Correct.

10        Q.   And then Bosanska Dubica.  Right, now, let's look at the ethnic

11     makeup, please, of Bosanska Gradiska.

12             MS. KORNER:  Can we have up, please, 65 ter --

13             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I object.  This is a

14     character witness and the Prosecution now wants to talk about ethnic

15     composition of Bosanska Gradiska and this is not the subject of -- this

16     is a wide-ranging line of questioning and as far as I understood the

17     Court, the Prosecution can ask character questions of the witness and not

18     to present evidence and not to ask him about things in Bosanska Gradiska

19     that have nothing to do with this indictment.  I think this should not be

20     allowed.

21             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, it has nothing to do with this

22     indictment.  However, there are two things.  First of all, the witness

23     has gone beyond character in his account of the break-up of the police in

24     Bosanska Gradiska.  Second, it is not possible, we would submit, to

25     assess the credibility of the evidence this witness is going to give

Page 26032

 1     without looking at the background of the events to which he was a party.

 2     And the fact that the Defence have decided to call this witness purely

 3     for character, but as I say going further, is not the point.  In any

 4     event, the assessment Your Honours have to make has to be based on the

 5     evidence that there is surrounding his testimony.  I didn't propose to

 6     belabour this but I'm entitled to do this in my submission.

 7             JUDGE HALL:  I seem to recall us having to rule on a like

 8     objection probably in the last setting whereas the -- under the -- the

 9     rules with which Ms. Korner and I would be familiar that

10     cross-examination is at large does not really apply at the Tribunal in

11     that cross-examination is not confined but certainly must relate to the

12     evidence led in chief.  But on the other hand, the matters which

13     obviously touch on the witness's credibility or ability, really, to give

14     evidence on which the Chamber must place reliance, that leeway must be

15     allowed.  So provided Ms. Korner so confines herself, I see no

16     objection -- no reason not to permit her to proceed along that line.

17             MS. KORNER:  Yes.  Could we have up, please, 65 ter 20376.  Can

18     we just, please, highlight the breakdown of the population that we can

19     see at the top.

20        Q.   Bosanska Gradiska was an overwhelmingly Serb municipality -

21     wasn't it? - had a total majority over any of the other ethnicities.

22        A.   You are asking me?

23        Q.   I'm asking you.  Were you aware of those figures?

24        A.   I must say in the system in which I lived, in which all of us

25     lived, and the education we had at home or generally did not focus us on

Page 26033

 1     these figures and these figures didn't mean anything to ordinary people.

 2     They didn't mean anything to me.  I don't feel even today, not to say

 3     then, who was who or divisions as to who belongs to what group as stated

 4     here.  So believe me, these numbers, I did not know these numbers at that

 5     time.  Later, of course, after what we went through, had we wanted to or

 6     not, just from general information and all the suffering we went through

 7     and the current situation in Bosnia-Herzegovina after the war that lasts

 8     even today where people want to group themselves into various groups, I

 9     know these, but at the time in 1991, 1992, when things began, nobody was

10     thinking about this, at least I was not thinking about this.

11        Q.   You may not personally, but I can assure you, sir, numbers of

12     people are able to quote these figures.  But, however, do you accept that

13     Bosanska Gradiska, this is the 1991 census, had an overwhelming majority

14     of Serb population, people who declared themselves to be Serbs?

15        A.   Of course I accept this.

16        Q.   But there were some 15.000 odd Muslims and 3.000 odd Croats.  Do

17     those figures sound right to you?

18        A.   Well, okay.

19        Q.   I'm asking you, sir.  You told us you'd been in Gradiska from

20     1991 onwards?

21        A.   It's all right.  As I said, I didn't deal with these things but

22     it's an official census and it certainly must have been like that.

23        Q.   Now, it's right, isn't it, sir, that from the outbreak of the

24     conflict in Croatia itself, there were problems starting, because

25     Gradiska is so close to the border, against other ethnicities, non-Serbs?

Page 26034

 1        A.   I must say this:  I worked at the traffic security police

 2     station.  As far as matters such as these are concerned and verification

 3     of such information, I cannot answer them with yes or no or make certain

 4     claims.  I will try to contribute and try to answer from my general

 5     knowledge.  Of course, I lived in Gradiska and had family and friends

 6     there.

 7        Q.   Okay.  Sorry, I am going to stop you, sir.  I'm going to ask you

 8     about specific events and matters.

 9             MS. KORNER:  Could we have up, please, now, on the screen,

10     document 20380.

11        Q.   You knew who Bishop Komarica was, didn't you?

12             MS. KORNER:  Sorry, tab 18.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know about Bishop Komarica from

14     the period after the war, but before the war, no, no, I didn't know who

15     he was, what his -- what religious dignitary function this had.  I know

16     of him from after the war.  Believe me, the time up to the was, the

17     beginning of the war, as things heated up, I simply was not interested in

18     this area.  I did not know religious dignitaries, any others, or those of

19     a lesser degree.

20        Q.   I want you to consider this:  This is a letter from him addressed

21     to the chief, Mr. Vesic of your SJB.  And he is complaining in February

22     of 1992 about attacks on nuns in Nova Topola.  Do you know where

23     Nova Topola is?

24        A.   I know.

25        Q.   Did your chief Mr. Vesic tell you that apparently members of the

Page 26035

 1     Catholic religious orders were being attacked?

 2        A.   My chief, Mr. Vesic, the chief -- organisationally, he was not my

 3     chief, my immediate superior was Commander Momir Topic.  Functionally,

 4     Commander Momir Topic was connected with the SJB, specifically to the

 5     police sector.  At the head of the sector was Mr. Stevan Markovic, the

 6     late Stevan Markovic --

 7        Q.   I'm sorry, sir, I'm going to stop you, we all want to finish as

 8     soon as we can today.  I really asked you a very simple question to he

 9     which the answer is either yes or no.  Did Mr. Vesic at any stage --

10        A.   No.

11        Q.   Thank you.  Let's move on then shall we.

12        A.   [Previous translation continues] ... I had to -- I had to explain

13     because you said your superior Vesic and this is why I gave this

14     explanation.  The answer in connection with this specific document is no,

15     he didn't have the need to do so nor was I in charge of security of this

16     type in Bosanska Gradiska municipality.

17        Q.   Well, let's continue to what started to happen after the outbreak

18     of the conflict.  Could you have a look, please, at a report on the

19     1st Krajina Corps.

20             MS. KORNER:  And the number is, it's at tab 3, and it's 2 -- 65

21     ter 20371.

22        Q.   I'm not suggesting for one moment, sir, that you had ever seen a

23     report like this but I want to ask you about the incident that's

24     described in there.  And paragraph 3, we can bring that up, thank you.

25             MS. KORNER:  We'll have to go to the next page, I think, in

Page 26036

 1     B/C/S.  Could we go to the next page in B/C/S because we can see it in

 2     English but not B/C/S.

 3        Q.   Do you see that they are recording on the 21st of April:

 4             "In Bosanska Gradiska citizens of Muslim ethnicity started

 5     assembling in the evening hours of the 20th of April, but the gathering

 6     broke up quietly after the police intervened."

 7             Do you recall gatherings -- a gathering of Muslims being broken

 8     up by the police very early on in the conflict?

 9        A.   I really don't remember.

10        Q.   But it's right, isn't it, that the Muslims in Bosanska Gradiska

11     posed absolutely no threat to anybody?

12        A.   Of course.  None of the ethnic groups represented any type of

13     threat.

14        Q.   Well, we'll see what happened now.  Now, let's look, please, at

15     the 5th of May.

16             MS. KORNER:  Could we have up, please, P367.  Tab 4.  Sorry,

17     wrong -- I'm so sorry, wrong one, my fault, it's tab 4, 65 ter 10006.

18        Q.   Now, Bosanska Gradiska had a Territorial Defence unit, didn't it?

19        A.   I think so.  Although, I don't understand these things.  I don't

20     understand military organisation.  I think so.

21        Q.   Didn't you do military service, sir, at some stage?

22        A.   Yes, in 1980.

23        Q.   So you are saying that your -- you think they had a

24     Territorial Defence.  Were you aware that the Territorial Defence that

25     was being supplied arms by the Banja Luka corps, 1st Krajina Corps?

Page 26037

 1        A.   No.

 2        Q.   Actually, it's still the 5th Corps.  Now, let's consider what

 3     happened after that.  A programme of disarmament went on, didn't it, of

 4     non-Serbs in Bosanska Gradiska from late May onwards?  Sir?  Did you hear

 5     the question?  It's right, isn't it, sir, there was a programme of

 6     disarming the non-Serbs in Bosanska Gradiska which was being carried out

 7     by the police in Bosanska Gradiska?

 8        A.   I didn't hear about the programme.  I don't know about it.  As

 9     far as disarming, yes, there was disarming.

10        Q.   Disarming of non-Serbs?

11        A.   I say disarming.  According to the laws in effect today and even

12     then, military weapons cannot be in the possession of citizens,

13     civilians.  Within that context, we can view it officially for disarming,

14     for taking away illegal [Realtime transcript read in error "legal"]

15     weapons, this was something that was done.  This was done by the general

16     police station, not the police station where I worked.  I don't want to

17     limit this only to Muslim citizens.

18        Q.   We, well I'm going to show you a document --

19             MR. ZECEVIC:  Sorry, line 29/11 says "for taking away legal

20     weapons".  I don't think that that is what the witness said.

21             MS. KORNER:  Line 29?

22             MR. ZECEVIC:  Page 29, line 11.

23             MS. KORNER:  Line 11, sorry.

24             MR. ZECEVIC:  "For taking away legal weapons," I think he said

25     something opposite.

Page 26038

 1             MS. KORNER:

 2        Q.   What did you say, sir?

 3        A.   I don't have this here, I have some kind of dispatch in front of

 4     me.

 5        Q.   Did you say -- sorry, it's all right, I'll repeat the question.

 6     There seems to be a mistranslation.  Did you say that there was

 7     officially a disarmament of taking away of legal weapons or illegal

 8     weapons?

 9        A.   Illegal, therefore, the police, the police workers of the general

10     police took away illegal weapons.

11        Q.   What they were doing, sir, was taking away legally owned or

12     taking away or making the owners hand in legally-owned hunting rifles,

13     weren't they?

14        A.   To tell you the truth, I don't know.  Possible.  It's possible.

15        Q.   Well, sir, we are not talking -- Bosanska Gradiska SJB wasn't a

16     huge SJB, was it?  It was quite a small one.

17        A.   Correct.

18        Q.   Are you saying that in your time working there full time, and

19     I'll come back in a moment to how you came to be doing that, you heard

20     nothing about the disarmament, the taking away of hunting rifles and the

21     like from what were described, in the report I'll show you in a minute,

22     as the Muslim and Croat, Croatian extremists?

23        A.   No.

24        Q.   You see, again if we look, please -- oh, I see the time,

25     Your Honours.

Page 26039

 1        A.   Hunting rifles are being taken away even today.  Who uses such

 2     weapons illegally even if he possesses them legally are taken away by

 3     various procedure whether criminal, misdemeanor, administrative.  If

 4     these things did happen, then there was probably some kind of assessment

 5     of this and it was probably an administrative matter.  What I want to

 6     tell you is that, yes, I lived there, but my position and the work I did,

 7     for which I was responsible, they cannot be brought into context with

 8     what you are asking about.  These were difficult times, let me tell you,

 9     very difficult times.  Everyone tried to protect himself, above all his

10     family.  Who did anything -- those who did anything illegal, it was their

11     decision, it was up to them.  They are the ones who will be held liable

12     for this sooner or later.  Please understand that my name, my position,

13     my conduct, my life philosophy cannot be brought into this context.  I

14     had my own family and I took care to do my task professionally.  And all

15     of these terrible times that are now behind us, I want it to end and

16     preserve our lives, preserve our friends and so on.

17             Perhaps this is a bit broad but please understand, please

18     understand the context of everything that happened.  I want to tell you

19     what I am saying was really like that.  I was really not interested in

20     anything except for what I was responsible before myself, before the

21     people, before God.

22        Q.   Did you feel --

23             JUDGE HALL:  Well, Ms. -- Mr. Smajlovic, we are about to take a

24     break.  We have to break at intervals in order for the tapes to be

25     changed.  So we will continue your testimony in 20 minutes.

Page 26040

 1                           [The witness stands down]

 2                           --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.

 3                           --- On resuming at 10.54 a.m.

 4                           [The witness takes the stand]

 5             MS. KORNER:

 6        Q.   Sir, I just want to finish very quickly the topic -- [Microphone

 7     not activated]?

 8             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone.

 9             MS. KORNER:  Two documents relating to the disarmament, please.

10     The first is at tab 6 and is P411.29.  Can we go, please, it's -- it's

11     1st Krajina Corps report of the 1st of June.  Can we go to the third page

12     in English, please, and the same in B/C/S.  And it's the top part in

13     English and B/C/S it's the beginning of the third paragraph.

14        Q.   "The municipalities of Bosanska Gradiska" and then gives the

15     other ones, "are stable..." pause there.  Do you agree in June of 1992

16     the municipality was a stable one?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   And "Muslim and Croatian extremists," as it's written here, "have

19     started handing in their weapons."  And do you agree that weapons were

20     being collected from the Muslim and Croatian population?

21        A.   I did say population.

22        Q.   Yes.  Sorry, do you agree that the people being disarmed were not

23     the Serbs, but the Muslims and the Croats?

24        A.   I cannot agree with that statement only.

25        Q.   All right.

Page 26041

 1             MS. KORNER:  Let's have a look, please, at another document on

 2     this topic which shows the list, and that's, please, the document at tab

 3     11 which is 65 ter 20378.  Sorry, yes, I have, 20374.  74, sorry.

 4        Q.   Sir, I don't know whether you saw that.  It's an official

 5     dispatch from your SJB.  Go to the last page, you'll see it's apparently

 6     signed by Mr. Vesic.  And we see -- do you agree -- is that Mr. Vesic's

 7     signature?

 8        A.   I suppose so.

 9        Q.   Well, are you saying you never saw any signatures by him?

10        A.   Yes, I did, and I, therefore, said I suppose so.  Let me repeat,

11     Vesic was not my immediate superior and I did not need to necessarily see

12     his signature, but I did and this one appears to be his.

13        Q.   Right.  Thank you.

14             MS. KORNER:  Let's go to the first page, please.

15        Q.   This is Mr. Vesic apparently replying to a request from the CSB

16     about the weaponry seized, illegally procured or held.  36 automatic

17     rifles and so on and so forth we can see.  And the weapons were

18     confiscated in the period from the 13th of July to the 20th of August and

19     then at the bottom of page, licensing hunting weapons seized.

20             MS. KORNER:  And we need to go to the next page in English.

21        Q.   These are hunting rifles, hunting carbines and sniping rifles.

22     There's a long list.  And it would appear that all of those were

23     confiscated.

24             MS. KORNER:  I think we need to go to the next page, please, in

25     B/C/S.

Page 26042

 1        Q.   The above weapons, do you see the paragraph, were confiscated

 2     from July to September for preventative and security reasons.  Receipts

 3     were issued.

 4             We wish to point out we will send you information subsequently

 5     about an even larger quantity of hunting weapons confiscated in the same

 6     manner ... and then pistols.

 7             So it would appear that -- if we go down, sorry to the next

 8     paragraph short-barrelled weapons confiscated 1 September 1992, the same

 9     reason, for licensing hunting weapons.  When we say the 1st of September,

10     1992 we mean that the operation of confiscating weapons is still

11     underway, continue to inform the centre as there are a large number of

12     weapons registered owned by Croat or Muslims.  Do you agree, sir, that it

13     would appear that certainly until the end of September there was a

14     disarmament operation going on in respect of Muslims and Croats in

15     Gradiska?

16        A.   Well, I truly cannot remember from which date to which date it

17     went on.  Yes, there was this activity and weapons were taken off the

18     population but I can't speak to the details.  It's been 20 years.

19        Q.   You see there's no mention of any illegally-owned weapons being

20     taken off Serbs in this document, is there.

21        A.   I haven't yet even got to the point of reading who the weapons

22     were seized off, if the document states that at all.  Is there any

23     mention of ethnicity at all?

24        Q.   Yes, I've just read you the paragraph:  "... as there are large

25     numbers of weapons registered in the area of Gradiska public security

Page 26043

 1     station, owned by Croatian or Muslim citizens."  Do you see that?  It's

 2     the penultimate paragraph on the page.

 3        A.   Yes, yes, I can see it now.  Well, if that's what the document

 4     states, then I suppose that was the case.  I suppose the person who

 5     signed the document was aware of what he was signing.

 6        Q.   In addition to disarming the population, Muslims and Croats were

 7     removed, weren't they, from the jobs that they held during this period of

 8     time between May and September 1992?

 9        A.   They were not in the station where I worked.

10        Q.   Well, anybody who declined to take the -- to make the declaration

11     was removed, weren't they?

12        A.   I don't think so.  Nobody was removed.  I presume that those who

13     failed to report to work would have their employment contracts terminated

14     by law.  Still today our legislation provides for a termination of

15     employment where the incumbent fails to appear for work for up to -- for

16     three days.

17        Q.   Let's have a look at one your own reports from Gradiska, please.

18     13th of January, 1993.

19             MS. KORNER:  Sorry, tab 12, 3512.  65 ter 3512.  This is all to

20     do with the communications in Bosanska Gradiska.  If we can go, please,

21     to, in English page 2 and in B/C/S to page 2 as well.  Second paragraph

22     in B/C/S, the bottom in English.

23        Q.   During 1992 staff member Meho Kovacevic, did you know him?

24        A.   Yes.  I am sorry, I can't find this.

25        Q.   I am sorry, it's the top, if you look at the second paragraph in

Page 26044

 1     your language.

 2        A.   Very well.

 3        Q.   It's now disappeared entirely from the screen: "... left his

 4     position because he did not sign the pledge of loyalty and went abroad

 5     with his family."  Most of the officers didn't sign, did they?  Most of

 6     the non-Serbs?  You were one of the very very few?

 7        A.   Well, in view of the number of non-Serb workers, I don't know if

 8     it was many or few.  Everybody had the right to make their own decision.

 9     I explained my own choice at the start and, as I say, it proved correct.

10     Those who have some sense in their mind would, of course, be in favour of

11     not waging a war, and after all, for the past 15 or 16 years,

12     Bosnia-Herzegovina is functioning, well, the way it is.  Therefore,

13     political choices made in respect of the political organisation for the

14     future are taken by politicians.  We were ordinary people and we had to

15     make sure as human beings, neighbours, and citizens not to divide and to

16     make sure that we stick together.  Had this happened thousands upon

17     thousands of people would not have been killed.  Unfortunately, not all

18     of us are of the same mind and, as I say, this specific decision had to

19     be taken by each and every individual of his own free will and based on

20     his own convictions, and they should not have gone in favour of divisions

21     but Meho Kovacevic made his choice and followed it.

22        Q.   You said they had to make that decision of their own free will.

23     Did you personally have pressure put on you to sign the declaration by

24     Mr. Vesic and other Serbs or, indeed, even Mr. Zupljanin?

25        A.   That's simply impossible.

Page 26045

 1        Q.   Did you bring pressure to bear on the people you visited at their

 2     homes, the non-Serbs, to sign?

 3        A.   A friendly conversation cannot be qualified as pressure;

 4     therefore, I did not exert any pressure.

 5        Q.   I'm now going to ask you to look, please, at the document which

 6     is at tab 14, 20375.  [Microphone not activated] Now this is a statement

 7     that was made --

 8             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

 9             MS. KORNER:

10        Q.   That was made to the Ministry of the Interior in Sarajevo in

11     1994.  It's by a gentleman named Abid Jugo, did you know him?

12        A.   Very well.  He is a neighbour of mine.  A friend.  We were on

13     visiting terms before the war and during the war all the way up to the

14     time when he relocated to Visoko, he exchanged his home for a home there.

15     I even visited him in Visoko when I was on a business trip to Sarajevo,

16     and as of a few years ago, Abid Jugo went to live in Norway because his

17     children are there, so I know the man very well.

18        Q.   Therefore, you have no reason to think that he would say things

19     about you which were untrue?

20        A.   That's right.

21        Q.   Now, let's just go through this.

22             MS. KORNER:  If we could move it up, please, in English.  He

23     gives the rough breakdown of the ethnicity.  Then can we go to the next

24     page in English.

25        Q.   Now, he describes the political events until Mr. Ivastanjin

Page 26046

 1     became president of the Municipal Assembly.  Then he describes who the

 2     other government bodies were and that in the SDS.  And can you see the

 3     bit that says:  "The chief of the SUP in Bosanska Gradiska is

 4     Vladan Vesic who had been chief before the war and whose mandate was then

 5     extended by the SDS.  Apart from him in the SUP there were the following

 6     extremists, Mr. Novakovic, the station commander; Dragoje Samardzija, a

 7     deputy commander; and Mr. Zivkovic; and also Mr. Polic."

 8             Then this:  "In the police station there's also a certain

 9     Nijaz Smajlovic in Sanski Most who is carrying out the duty of deputy

10     commander in the station and who still holds that duty.  I heard that

11     when the Serbs were taking over power, Smajlovic put pressure on the

12     Muslims who were in the SUP."

13             Was that true?

14        A.   You see, I was following closely and reading, I'm a bit taken

15     aback by this.  Some of the functions and positions he listed here are

16     incorrect, but this term, "one Nijaz Smajlovic from Sanski Most," I don't

17     know about English but in our language when you say one Mr. So and so,

18     that would mean a certain person, that would mean somebody you didn't

19     know, whereas he was a friend of mine, a neighbour.  One whose house I

20     would visit and he would visit mine.  So I'm sure he would not have used

21     this term one Nijaz or certain Nijaz.  He told me he had problems when he

22     arrived in Visoko and that was in 1994 from what was a Serb entity so

23     what he must have been asked a great deal of questions and I know he had

24     enormous difficulties, a year or more, before he could actually take

25     possession of the house that he was supposed to live in.  So I'm really

Page 26047

 1     taken aback by this because Abid, whom I know, if he were to come here, I

 2     am sure would not have said this.  As the sentence stands, "certain

 3     Nijaz Smajlovic" tells me that somebody must have pushed him to give this

 4     sort of statement to the police.

 5        Q.   Well, I'll ask you the question again.  Is it true, as he says,

 6     that you put pressure on people to remain?

 7        A.   Of course it is not true.  I said that a moment ago.  It's just

 8     that I am a bit distressed now that I've read this document, and I wonder

 9     if he was able to read what they made of his words.  What I said that

10     there had been were friendly conversations with people of Muslim

11     ethnicity because I lived in a neighbourhood, now that I have to say it,

12     where most of the population were Muslims.  And there were questions

13     asked as to why not everyone stayed behind when a certain number of

14     non-Serb workers stayed behind, whereas a certain number left.  And

15     people realised at a later date that they perhaps lacked courage to do

16     this and that and then questions were asked about why some people decided

17     to leave and why not all of them stayed behind.  Because you know that

18     care was always taken of the ethnic makeup.  It is still the case today.

19        Q.   Yes.  It may well be the case today.  I'm suggesting to you, I'm

20     going to come on to that, that what when on in Gradiska in 1992, with

21     your connivance, sir, I'm afraid to say, was ethnic cleansing.  Can we

22     just finish this statement, please.

23             MS. KORNER:  Can we go to the next page in English, please.

24             MR. ZECEVIC:  Your Honours, if I may briefly just interrupt.

25     Your Honours, I didn't want to object earlier before the witness gave his

Page 26048

 1     answer in order that I would not be coaching a witness or anything like

 2     that.

 3             MS. KORNER:  Can we have the witness with his earphones off, if

 4     he doesn't speak English, please.  Can we confirm, perhaps you can

 5     confirm whether the witness speaks English or understands English.

 6             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Smajlovic, can you understand English?  Sorry,

 7     yes.  Can you understand spoken English?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

 9             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.  You may take your headphones off again,

10     please.

11             MR. ZECEVIC:  Your Honours, in this situation, Ms. Korner is

12     producing a witness statement and challenging the witness credibility

13     based on the statement of some third person, and we don't have the

14     confirmation that this person actually gave this statement.  How do we

15     know that?  Was it -- was this statement taken out of his own free will?

16     Perhaps yes, perhaps not.  Has the contents of the statement where what

17     he actually said or perhaps somebody added some things, because we have

18     heard a number of testimonies where the witnesses were saying that the

19     officials of the Bosnia-Herzegovina have added certain qualifications or

20     certain events in some of their statements.

21             Now, if Your Honours will recall, during the -- during the

22     Prosecutor's case, we wanted to show the -- we wanted to show to the

23     witnesses the statements given by some of the -- of the persons who were

24     detained or interviewed during the -- during the interviewing process,

25     for example, in Prijedor and elsewhere.  And then the opposition by the

Page 26049

 1     Office of the Prosecutor was that we cannot establish that these

 2     statements were given by their own free will.  And that is precisely the

 3     same situation as over here.  And that is why I have -- I have to object

 4     at this point that Ms. Korner uses these documents for these purposes.

 5     Thank you very much.

 6             JUDGE HALL:  It seems to me, Mr. Zecevic, that I fully understand

 7     what you are saying in terms of weight of this document having regard to

 8     its remoteness from the witness.  We are dealing with multiple levels of

 9     hearsay and if I were sitting in a common law court, I would have no

10     hesitation about excluding the use of the document.  But as I understand

11     the more liberal rules of the Tribunal, Ms. Korner is entitled to use it

12     in the manner that she is, but she would appreciate that the -- for the

13     reasons that you have identified and I've just echoed, that there's only

14     so far that this would go but it's left at the end of the day for

15     argument.

16             MR. ZECEVIC:  I understand.  Thank you very much, Your Honours.

17     I am sorry.

18             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, can I say the objection and indeed

19     what Your Honours just said is quite remarkable, if Your Honours will

20     recall exactly that, we took objection to the statements coming from

21     people who have been interviewed in Omarska and we said that we objected

22     to it for a number of reasons and we received a ruling from Your Honours

23     which I can get which admitted each and every one of those statements

24     with the caveat that, later, Your Honours would give it such weight as

25     they deserved given that the person hadn't turned up to explain the

Page 26050

 1     circumstances.  I'm proposing to ask Your Honours on that very basis to

 2     admit this statement into evidence as an exhibit when I finish going

 3     through it.  And, indeed, we even have here a close connection.  It's the

 4     hearsay element that I find surprising, Your Honour, because he says he

 5     knows this man, whereas the witnesses doing these endless Omarska

 6     statements, where it will show, a goodly number of which were admitted by

 7     Your Honours in the teeth of our strong objections and an application for

 8     reconsideration on it, this is exactly as I say, as I warned at the time,

 9     what is good for the goose is equally good for the gander and so I'm

10     putting it to the witness, I'm going to ask for it be admitted because he

11     knows the man indeed at the end of my examination on it, on the same

12     basis as the Omarska statements and others were admitted.

13             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you, Ms. Korner, I'm personally relieved that

14     my instinctive conforms to what we have, in fact, formally ruled.

15             Mr. Krgovic.

16             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I just have one

17     comment to what Ms. Korner said about this being hearsay evidence.  This

18     is not even hearsay evidence because if you take a more careful look at

19     what this man here states, he says I heard from so and so.  So in other

20     words, not the one giving the statement heard it but heard it for

21     somebody else, so this is twice or three times removed from the one

22     making the statement.  This doesn't even fulfill the criteria for hearsay

23     evidence.

24             JUDGE HALL:  I think that is what our American friends call

25     totem-pole hearsay.  Yes, please proceed, Ms. Korner.

Page 26051

 1             MS. KORNER:  He then lists -- sorry, you can put your earphones

 2     on, sir.

 3        Q.   He then lists the various people who were in charge of companies.

 4             MS. KORNER:  And can we go to the next page, please, in B/C/S.

 5        Q.   He asserts that Mr. Ivastanjin, Mr. Barac and others including

 6     Mr. Vesic, together with the JNA, Banja Luka corps specifically, fully

 7     armed the Serbian population during 1990 to 1991, and, indeed, the SDS

 8     then carried out training.  And deals with the weapons.  Were you aware

 9     of that, sir?

10        A.   No.

11        Q.   Never heard anything about the SDS, the Banja Luka corps, and

12     arming Serbs in Gradiska at all?

13        A.   No.

14        Q.   Did you know --just departing for a moment from the statement -

15     did you know a police officer in the SUP called Husret Mujadic [phoen]?

16        A.   Of the SUP.

17        Q.   The SJB in Bosanska Gradiska?

18        A.   We didn't have such one there as far as I remember.  I don't know

19     if a man by that name ever worked at that station.

20        Q.   All right.  Was there ever a time when members of the SJB were

21     sent to attend, whilst you were there, courses in Belgrade before the

22     conflict broke out on explosive devices, et cetera?

23        A.   I don't know of anybody being sent to Belgrade.

24        Q.   All right.  Let's just finish then, please, with the statement

25     that was made by this gentleman.  He goes on to describe the crime that

Page 26052

 1     was committed in August of 1992.  And do you remember when there was an

 2     incident where members of either the -- they were called the Skorpions or

 3     something to do with the police were actually killed by the other side,

 4     either Muslims or Croats?

 5        A.   There were no Skorpions members in the police, nor were any

 6     police officers killed in August.  But maybe you are referring to the

 7     events on the 8th and 9th of August.  They involved army members, I

 8     think.  There was a Gradiska Brigade, or whatever it was called.  It was

 9     an incident when 16 young men were killed.  They were from Gradiska.  So

10     this is not about the police but about army members.

11        Q.   Well, that is exactly the incident I'm referring to and I'll come

12     back to that but I just want to complete this statement.

13             MS. KORNER:  Could we go, please, to page 5 in English, and I

14     think it is in page 3 in B/C/S.

15        Q.   Do you see there he says:  "The torture and persecution of

16     Muslims and Croats started when the war broke out.  The main terror was

17     carried out by the police, the so-called Serbian SUP headed by the chief

18     Vladan Vesic and Ostoja Novakovic the commander of the police station.

19     By Zivko Zivkovic, Drago Samardzija, the chief of the SUP formed a group

20     of policemen led by the policeman Nikic who was the body-guard of the SUP

21     chief."

22             Now, before I go on to what is alleged here, were all these men

23     that he names members of the SJB during 1992?

24        A.   Some information is wrong.  Vladan Vesic was chief of the SJB but

25     this also mentions Ostoja Novakovic, the commander of the police station

Page 26053

 1     but it's not Ostoja, it's Dragoljub Novakovic.  Ostoja was the name of an

 2     assistant, but Ostoja Balaban.  Zivkovic was a chief of the crime police

 3     department and not an inspector at the time.  And Samardzija did not have

 4     an executive function at the station then, I think.  And down there

 5     policeman Nikic but I'm fully certain that there was no police officer by

 6     that name.  You said it was a small station and it was, but I don't know

 7     anybody by the name of Nikic.  And especially since this states that he

 8     was a body-guard of the SUP chief.

 9        Q.   Right.  They go on to say:

10             "During this day the group searched the homes of the Muslims and

11     Croats because they were allegedly looking for weapons and at night the

12     same houses and flats would be looted, set on fire, and mined.  Some

13     people were killed and some were taken to prison."

14             Is that true?

15        A.   Of course not.  Or, actually, I cannot join in this.  I'm unaware

16     of such information.  It certainly was not this way.  I don't know where

17     this gentleman, my neighbour and friend, got this from.  I really

18     couldn't say.  I tried to read as much as possible from this document

19     during the break but you need a major organisational unit to collect this

20     amount of information.  I don't know how he could have done that himself.

21     I'm convinced that all these things were put in his mouth for him to

22     simply sign off.  I totally disagree with what he says here.

23        Q.   Did you watch the case against Radoslav Brdjanin at all, any of

24     the court proceedings there?

25        A.   I don't remember.  I don't think so.  But the reports are very

Page 26054

 1     concise.  I don't think I followed Brdjanin, I did watch some though.

 2        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... Yes, but -- so you weren't

 3     aware that your municipality, Bosanska Gradiska formed part of that case

 4     and that evidence was led about what happened there?  You didn't know

 5     that?

 6        A.   No, I haven't heard that before.

 7        Q.   Are you saying that no one, to your knowledge, was arrested,

 8     brought to the police station, and then beaten up while they were being

 9     questioned?

10        A.   There were arrests, people were brought in, but about the

11     treatment, I cannot comment.  You are putting to me that people were

12     being beaten and who knows what but I, personally, wasn't present,

13     haven't seen anything, haven't heard anything and wasn't responsible for

14     it.  Neither me nor my organisational unit were not involved in such

15     actions and I cannot confirm any of this.

16        Q.   Well, let's just look at a bit more of what he says.

17             MS. KORNER:  Can we look, please, at page 6 in English, and it's

18     the bottom of page 3 in the B/C/S version.

19        Q.   I asked you earlier about the outbreak of war in Croatia.  Did,

20     as he allege, criminals come into Gradiska?

21        A.   From where?  I apologise.

22        Q.   From -- Serbs from Croatia?  Martic's men?  The Krajina.

23        A.   I would say that I haven't heard of -- or if I were to say that I

24     haven't heard of anybody crossing over, it would be a lie.  Of course I

25     heard of that, but as a human being and as a police officer, I cannot

Page 26055

 1     speak about specific instances because I really don't know.  Yes, I heard

 2     general information that they were coming, crossing the border.  I mean,

 3     criminals.  That's the word -- rather, that's a term that I wouldn't

 4     accept either.

 5        Q.   All right.

 6             MS. KORNER:  Well, let's, go, please then to page 7 in English

 7     and it's the next page in B/C/S, page 4.

 8        Q.   He says there that -- he deals with the August action but I want

 9     to look at a different document for that.  "In 1992 around 8.000 Muslims

10     were moved out of Bosanska Gradiska and around 100 of them were killed."

11     Would you accept those figures?

12        A.   Of course not.  I think that nobody in their right mind would

13     agree with these figures because nobody was in a position to count.  I

14     don't think that people moved out in such numbers in 1992.  Of course,

15     people were leaving, but how many, especially the part that says how many

16     were killed, I mean, this is absurd.  This is mere guess-work.  I

17     simply --

18        Q.   [Overlapping speakers] I understand you don't agree with it.  I'm

19     going to show you another document later about that.

20             MS. KORNER:  Your Honour, I think that's all I want to ask on the

21     document but I do ask it be made for an exhibit.  It goes to the

22     credibility of the witness, no other purpose than that.  And it has the

23     same status at the Omarska statements that were admitted when the Defence

24     asked for them.

25             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I think that this

Page 26056

 1     situation differs essentially from the one when the official notes, not

 2     statements, from Omarska were admitted because we had a witness here who

 3     took those statements and he was familiar with them and they were led

 4     through him and that was the nexus.  The witness was in a position to

 5     speak about the circumstances under which they were taken and everything

 6     else.  Here the situation is very different.  There's no such nexus nor

 7     or can we go into the circumstances under which they were taken or probe

 8     their reliability, so we cannot apply the same standard as when the

 9     statement from Omarska were admitted.  To my mind this is an essential

10     difference.

11             MR. ZECEVIC:  Your Honours, I most certainly object as I stated

12     before.  Now, I'm not sure I follow Ms. Korner's argument because what I

13     found on the pages transcript 16883 through 16888 is the following -- I'm

14     quoting now:

15             "The Chamber would like to clarify one issue that was raised by

16     Mr. Hannis just before the break, namely, the purpose for which these

17     notes are being sought admitted into evidence.

18             "The Chamber is of the view that they cannot and should not be

19     admitted as statements proper for the simple reason that they don't

20     fulfill the requirements of 92 bis.  So they will consider not only the

21     procedure that these notes seem to establish, but also the contents of

22     the findings ..." and so on and so forth.

23             The Chamber will consider these official notes both from the form

24     and for the contents and thus not consider them as statements.

25             Therefore, I don't see any relationship between the Chamber's

Page 26057

 1     ruling and Ms. Korner's request.

 2             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, it's not that -- there was a long

 3     written motion about all this and Your Honours in the end admitted them.

 4     I haven't got them with me.  I'll get them so that we have them after the

 5     break and I'll leave my application for the moment is that it is admitted

 6     as an exhibit.  I'll come back with the motions but it's on the same

 7     basis as they were admitted.  The Omarska statements were not all

 8     admitted through a witness who had taken them but I will get the

 9     documents after the break and can I move on.

10                           [Trial Chamber confers]

11             JUDGE HALL:  The application by Ms. Korner is that this document

12     be admitted solely for the purposes of the challenging the credibility of

13     the witness on the stand, and taking on board what counsel for the

14     Defence, both counsel have said about the inherent deficiencies, for want

15     of a better word, in this document which the witness himself didn't make

16     and he disputes the contents, having regard to the limited purposes for

17     which sought to be admitted, the Chamber so admits it and it is

18     accordingly admitted and marked.

19             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P2419, Your Honours.

20             MS. KORNER:

21        Q.   Now, I want to deal very quickly, please, with what was one of

22     the major incidents in Bosanska Gradiska in August, which you've referred

23     to.  If I can just find it.  Yes.

24             MS. KORNER:  Could we look, please, at -- it's document number 8,

25     20373.  Tab 8.

Page 26058

 1        Q.   This is a report dated the 12th of August of 1992, and under 3,

 2     "Situation in the territory":

 3             "Following a clash with an Ustasha unit in the Bosanska Gradiska

 4     region in the greater Gradiska region, reprisals were taken against the

 5     Muslim population and several buildings were destroyed and six people

 6     killed."

 7             That's what happened, wasn't it, after members of whatever they

 8     were, the police, the Skorpions, the army were killed, reprisals were

 9     taken against the civilian population?

10        A.   That is correct.  After these 16 youths were buried, I think it

11     was on a Monday, that is on the night between Monday and Tuesday these

12     incidents happened.  And it was terrible.  I personally stayed with my

13     family at my home during that night as everybody else or most everybody.

14     Later we heard the news that some people had been killed, that there was

15     shooting or explosions in some buildings, and that certainly is true.

16     Nobody can deny that.  But I was in no position to know about the scope

17     of these events.

18        Q.   But you were in a position to see, weren't you, that of the 17

19     mosques in Bosanska Gradiska during this period, 15 of them were blown

20     up?

21        A.   My house was 50 metres from the nearest mosque and it certainly

22     was not blown up, and the period you are referring to and when this

23     conversation took place cannot be linked to the destruction of these

24     mosques.  We have to approach it on a case-to-case basis.  I know about

25     these things very well, because my house was very near one of these

Page 26059

 1     mosques.

 2        Q.   I don't know, there may have been a mistranslation, I don't know

 3     what conversation you were talking about.  I'm just simply asking you,

 4     are you saying that all the mosques in Bosanska Gradiska including the

 5     one nearest your house remained intact during 1992?

 6        A.   No, of course I cannot be sure about that, but the immediate

 7     consequence certainly wasn't the destruction of all mosques.  Maybe one

 8     was destroyed on that night or two, or, I don't know.  I'm sure that

 9     there are documents about it because on-site investigations were made and

10     it is easy to reconstruct what happened when but the event I'm referring

11     to was not a consequence of that.  I believe it only happened in the

12     spring of 1993.  That's what I want to say.  There is no direct link

13     between this incident and the destruction of the mosques but it is true

14     that they were destroyed.

15        Q.   Thank you.  I am sorry, it's my fault, I accept not necessarily

16     there was the link between the August incident, but overall, all the

17     mosques bar two, I suggest, were blown up during this period; would you

18     agree?

19        A.   Okay.

20        Q.   Does that mean yes?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   All right.  Finally, then I'm going to turn very shortly after

23     the break to what you said about Stojan Zupljanin.  As a result of

24     everything that went on, I put certain figures to you.  I want to put two

25     other documents that come from, as it so happens, police sources.

Page 26060

 1             MS. KORNER:  Could you have a look, please, first of all at

 2     document 20381, which is at tab 19.

 3        Q.   This is a report from a gentleman named Milos, that the Court

 4     knows all about, about the events in Gradiska, and it's dated the 22nd of

 5     August, 1992, so not long after the incident.  And he says more and more

 6     citizens, primarily of Croatian and Muslim nationality wish to

 7     voluntarily emigrate from the area of Bosanska Gradiska pursuant to the

 8     conditions stipulated by the Municipal Assembly decision dated the

 9     31st of July.  Are you aware of that decision, sir?

10        A.   I have never seen this document before.

11        Q.   No, I'm asking you -- I appreciate you probably haven't.  I'm

12     asking you whether the Municipal Assembly in July made a decision about

13     the conditions under which people could emigrate?

14        A.   Well, I'm saying that I hear this for the first time.

15        Q.   So you weren't aware that people were told that they could leave

16     if they signed over their property to the municipality and so on and so

17     forth?  Didn't know that from any of your friends?

18        A.   No.  No, I haven't heard about it but I know that people left.

19        Q.   Right.  And then it goes on to describe the talks that have gone

20     on with Nova Gradiska which is in Croatia, is it not?

21        A.   That's correct.

22        Q.   And the Croats should move and then at the bottom:

23             "According to fully verified information, Banja Luka Bishop of

24     the Roman Catholic church, Komarica, opposes this and filed a protest

25     with the president of Bosanska Gradiska Municipal Assembly and the public

Page 26061

 1     security service chief requesting that the emigration comes to an end

 2     'because it causes damage to the Croatian people.'"

 3             Now did Mr. Vesic ever tell you that, yet again, Bishop Komarica

 4     was objecting to what was going on to members of his flock, the Roman

 5     Catholic Croats?

 6        A.   He never told me, nor did he have the opportunity or nor was I

 7     ever present during discussions or meetings of this.  My position, I will

 8     repeat it again, my position did not require my presence at such

 9     discussions.  Of course, I did not know nor did Mr. Vesic ever tell me.

10        Q.   Well --

11        A.   I will say once again, I see this for the first time, hear about

12     it for the first time.  As far as I can see, these are informal

13     representatives of the Croatian people.  I've heard of their names as

14     citizens of Gradiska.

15        Q.   Well, finally on this topic of those who moved out, can you have

16     a look, please at a document, which is already an exhibit.

17             MS. KORNER:  P425, tab 13.  No, that's not it.  P425.  Thank you.

18        Q.   This was, I suppose, an unofficial assessment made by the

19     Banja Luka CSB in May of 1993 of a list of citizens who have moved out

20     into the area covered by the sector.

21             MS. KORNER:  And can we go, please, in English to the fourth page

22     and in B/C/S, I believe it is also the fourth page.

23        Q.   The police made virtually the same assessment as did the

24     gentleman who gave the statement to Sarajevo police which you described

25     as rubbish:  Moved out Muslims, 9.500 to 10.000 Gradiska; Croats 1.000;

Page 26062

 1     and Serbs 1.000.  And then Serbs had moved in, presumably from other

 2     areas.  So by May of 1993, two-thirds of the Muslim population of

 3     Gradiska had moved out, hadn't it?

 4        A.   That's what it says.

 5        Q.   And you knew what was happening, didn't you?  You knew all along

 6     as you sat there in Bosanska Gradiska what was going on there?

 7        A.   I don't understand the question.

 8        Q.   You knew, I suggest, sir, because you were a member of the

 9     police, even if only the traffic police?

10        A.   What?

11        Q.   That, first of all --

12        A.   What did I know?

13        Q.   Yes.  Just wait, I'm going to enumerate, sir, what I say you

14     knew.  First of all, that people had been removed from their jobs because

15     of their ethnicity?  Do you agree?

16        A.   People were removed from their jobs, dismissed, but I don't know

17     the reasons why.

18        Q.   Wasn't it obvious to you, sir?

19        A.   I said I didn't know the reasons.

20        Q.   Second, that from at least July a programme of disarming the

21     non-Serbs was carried out by the police?

22        A.   I don't know about the programme but as far as the basic work in

23     the field is concerned, yes, the locals were disarmed.  Those who

24     possessed illegal weapons.  Certainly most of them were non-Serbs.

25     That's generally known.  Again, I say the townspeople and illegal

Page 26063

 1     possession of weapons.

 2        Q.   Third, that harassment, arson -- well, let's take this one by

 3     one.  That the non-Serb population were, to put it at its lowest,

 4     harassed by the Serbs and the Serb authorities?

 5        A.   It can't be put that way.  The Serbs helped Muslims and Croats

 6     and vice-versa.  You cannot generalize these things in this particular

 7     situation.

 8        Q.   I suggest further to you, sir, that to your knowledge houses were

 9     being attacked and people were being attacked by Serbs?

10        A.   I cannot say as you do, the Serbs.  It is correct that people

11     were attacked, houses were attacked.  I don't know.

12        Q.   The houses and the people were all non-Serbs, weren't they, sir?

13        A.   Shots were fired at my house.  A bullet came in through a window

14     of my house that faced the street and it hit the ceiling and the wall

15     where my wife and children were.  I cannot claim who fired the shot but

16     that is the truth.  The house faced the street, there was shooting, there

17     was shooting every night.  Those that had weapons fired the shots.  Some

18     things could not be controlled.  Unfortunately that was how things were

19     based on my experience.  I could have been a victim, my family could have

20     been a victim of such shootings.

21             And this mosque that was mentioned, let me just tell you, this

22     mosque that was destroyed, parts of that mosque could have come into my

23     house.  All the windows of my house were broken.  This did not happen to

24     my friend and neighbour and I would never write or sign what he has done.

25     Everyone knows who I am in Gradiska and they know my conduct, I must say

Page 26064

 1     this with emotion and hopefully he will hear about this and will never be

 2     able to face me again.

 3        Q.   First, sir --

 4        A.   My apologies to you, to the Court for the emotion.

 5        Q.   Sir, can I say, I fully accept everything that you've described

 6     that happened to you.  Do I understand you to say that when the mosque

 7     was blown-up next to your house, parts of it came into your house?

 8        A.   They could have, I said they could have.  Had this happened, it

 9     would have killed us.  All the windows, all the glass in my house was

10     broken.  This is in the context of this story, let me say this, there

11     were horrible scenes, horrible moments.  The disappearance of one state.

12     Viewed from this position, a very chaotic state of matters.  It was up to

13     each individual how they will conduct themselves, will they leave or not.

14     Specific pressure to leave, everyone came to understand this as they did,

15     and everyone experienced it in their own way.  The contact I had with

16     people, I was saddened when people left Gradiska or any other part of

17     Bosnia.  If these were normal, well-mannered, civilised people and they

18     had to leave.  But these conversations, this information that I had

19     through conversations, and my family, everyone left for about three

20     months until the situation settles in Bosnia-Herzegovina, until it calms

21     down.  However, things happened as they did.  It wasn't three months, it

22     was for three or four years, unfortunately.

23        Q.   Well, sir, really, didn't you just stay with the police even

24     though you could see what was happening to Muslims because you were

25     terrified, absolutely terrified?

Page 26065

 1        A.   I did not.  I was not terrified.  I was lucky enough to have

 2     associates, to have colleagues who were normal people.  That's my

 3     opinion.  All the people in charge, the police, that worked under the

 4     other system and that continued to work in these initial war

 5     circumstances, relations between us were proper, between us within the

 6     station and with the centre.  Unfortunately, as days, months, years went

 7     by, the situation became more complex.  Certain people could not have a

 8     bearing on certain events either circumstances that were directly or

 9     indirectly tied to this.  Therefore, I did not just once again --

10        Q.   Okay.

11        A.   Okay.

12        Q.   Sorry, sir, if you want to say one more thing, it's actually

13     we've gone beyond the time we need to break.  If you want to say

14     something else, say it.

15        A.   I just wanted to confirm once again that there was no fear.  If I

16     had been afraid, I would have left.  But that was my principle.  In the

17     lack of indivisibility, not recognising any divisions between people in

18     Bosnia and Herzegovina or in the state of Yugoslavia as it existed at the

19     time.

20        Q.   I think finally, sir, did you feel any kind of moral -- on this

21     topic, I've got two or three questions after the break.  Did you feel any

22     kind of moral responsibility for staying in a service that was

23     oppressing, again using the lowest term I can think of, people who were

24     non-Serbs in Gradiska?

25        A.   Let me say that I wouldn't agree with your statement.  I think

Page 26066

 1     it's actually two or three different questions.  I didn't feel any moral

 2     responsibility because I, myself, my wife helped a lot of people, I won't

 3     say people of which nationality.  But believe me, in my house from my

 4     birthplace, Sanski Most, there were ten or 11 people from there who were

 5     on their way abroad and that could happen and last for days.  Any person

 6     officially or unofficially who came to me, I never turned my head away

 7     from anyone, but within my abilities as a person and my professional

 8     ability, I assisted people whether in this or that way, through someone,

 9     or I personally, therefore I feel no moral responsibility.

10             My position, in fact, and the fact that I remained, if we must

11     discuss it, by saying me as Smajlovic, remained with the Serbian police

12     in Republika Srpska which today exists as in the form it is, whether I

13     have anything to say I think I contributed, exemplary, I acted properly

14     towards people, I acted properly towards the workers, towards my

15     colleagues, my superiors as well.  My propriety was valued and no one had

16     any objections to tell me, none of them because I was helping my friends,

17     my relatives in this or that manner.  The Court must know this.  I was

18     not known as a police employee.  Before the police I was an active

19     athlete.  I was known to the public throughout Bosnia-Herzegovina and

20     Yugoslavia and particularly in Sanski Most, Gradiska, Banja Luka as an

21     athlete and people knew me as such.  Circumstances were that I began to

22     work in the police in the 1990s and there I contributed as a person, as a

23     professional as much as I could, and I think I did quite enough.

24     Unfortunately, I must add to this, this was never returned to me.  It

25     never came back.  What Mr. Jugo signed is just unbelievable as far as I'm

Page 26067

 1     concerned and I think it is for him as well.

 2             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, I have about five minute's worth after

 3     the break and then I'll be completed.

 4             JUDGE HALL:  So we return in 20 minutes.

 5                           [The witness stands down]

 6                           --- Recess taken at 12.13 p.m.

 7                           --- On resuming at 12.37 p.m.

 8             JUDGE HALL:  We reconvene for this last session under

 9     Rule 15 bis, Judge Delvoie being absent.

10                           [The witness takes the stand]

11             MS. KORNER:

12        Q.   Sir, I only have a very few further questions for you.  You said

13     just before we broke that you were an active athlete known to the public

14     throughout Bosnia, Yugoslavia, and particularly in Sanski Most, Gradiska,

15     and Banja Luka.  Was that as a footballer, as you told us earlier today?

16        A.   That's right.

17        Q.   And is it right that Mr. Zupljanin was a very keen footballer as

18     well, not in the same class as you?

19        A.   I never heard about it.

20        Q.   You never played football with him or against him?

21        A.   No, no.

22        Q.   Now, you told the Court in your statement which is now an

23     exhibit, and in your evidence, that you never heard Mr. Zupljanin say

24     anything negative about Muslims or Croats, or anything negative or

25     discriminatory about anything ethnic or nationality.  Do I understand

Page 26068

 1     what you are saying the only times that you actually met him were between

 2     1990 and May of 1992 when you went to collegiums to stand in for the

 3     commander of the traffic division?

 4        A.   That's correct.

 5        Q.   And you did not socialise with him at all?

 6        A.   I did not.

 7        Q.   In which case, I take it, sir, you weren't aware of a letter that

 8     he wrote to Biljana Plavsic in July of 1991 about what he described as

 9     the dominance of the Muslims in this important ministry?

10        A.   I am not aware of it.

11        Q.   And you told us that one of these last meetings he said that

12     nothing bad should ever happen to you?

13        A.   That's right.  That was the reaction to what I was talking about;

14     my contributions, my activities, my position, my work, the fact that I

15     was against divisions, that we should work, that there was always time

16     for a conflict later on, if necessary.

17        Q.   Yes.  But didn't it strike that you it was a rather odd thing to

18     say?

19        A.   Truth be told, at the time I didn't really understand it.  My

20     philosophy, the way I thought, how I lived, naturally everything that I

21     said, everything I did was normal and natural.  It's universal, natural

22     thing that's respected throughout the world.  Do everything you can so

23     that there are no divisions, no arguments.  Use everything you have

24     available to you.  I assumed that Mr. Zupljanin, as the chief of the

25     centre, later when I thought about it, he probably had other examples,

Page 26069

 1     negative examples, and perhaps my example, he made the comments he did

 2     about my example as he did.

 3        Q.   But did it ever strike you, when you thought about it, as you

 4     say, you didn't really understand it, that it seemed to suggest that bad

 5     things could happen to other Muslims who were in the police?  Did that

 6     ever strike you?

 7        A.   No.  No.

 8             MS. KORNER:  All right.  Thank you, sir.

 9             JUDGE HALL:  Re-examination.

10             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours.  Just a few

11     questions, please.

12                           Re-examination by Mr. Krgovic:

13        Q.   Sir, you were shown a statement by this citizen which was given

14     to the aid organs in Sarajevo, citizen Abid Jugo.  I wanted to ask you

15     about it.  When he were talking to these policemen, when you were talking

16     about them remaining to work in the police, was he present?

17        A.   Of course he was not.

18        Q.   In this statement you said -- you saw that there was a lot of

19     information, your name was mentioned, was mentioned in that context.

20     Since you knew this man, was it possible for him to present so much

21     information?

22        A.   I didn't have the opportunity to read his entire statement which

23     was several pages long, but what was shown on the screen, while during

24     the break I was able to read quite a bit of it, I think that the

25     information presented there he would need an entire organisation to come

Page 26070

 1     to such information.  Knowing him personally, let me say again, he signed

 2     what he signed, knowing him.  Today I still have the same opinion of him.

 3     He is a very honest man, that he had problems, that was certain.  He had

 4     them.  He couldn't enter his own house for a year and a half, the house

 5     he had exchanged, but I didn't know about this, he never told me about

 6     this.  I assume that he was under some kind of pressure to sign this.

 7     Whether he, in fact, even read this, I don't know.  The relationship

 8     remains the same, you understand.  We'll meet one day and he will tell me

 9     if there was need for the Court, if we were lucky enough for the Court to

10     summon him here, there are things there that don't pertain to me, that I

11     don't think are correct.

12        Q.   Mr. Smajlovic, you are in a very high office in the police and

13     have been in the past, did you go through certain checks by the police of

14     Bosnia-Herzegovina?

15        A.   Of course I did and all members of the police of

16     Bosnia-Herzegovina went through certain checks, checks by the IPTF, the

17     international police force, and finally, I think in 2002 we were

18     certified to continue working.  We also underwent checks by our security

19     services in Bosnia-Herzegovina, which was in accordance with legal

20     regulations in force there, and there, too, I passed all the checks and

21     there were no problems as far as I was concerned.

22        Q.   If this information in the statement was correct, would you be in

23     this office?

24        A.   Certainly not.

25        Q.   Finally, you gave us a detail that you assisted this citizen,

Page 26071

 1     this Abid.  What was the assistance about, you said this on page 58?

 2        A.   Let me say, it's a private matter.  I don't know if I should

 3     recount this.  I said we were neighbours, we visited each other's houses

 4     and, finally, if I must say, I will say it, when he exchanged his house

 5     the gentleman who continues to own the house today moved in.  Abid had to

 6     move out of his house, what had been his house until then, and he had to

 7     move into a room that was not adapted for living.  I went and saw him

 8     there.  It was within the -- within my capability to move him into the

 9     house of a relative of mine and he stayed in that house where I put him

10     until he went to Visoko.  And Abid and Biser [phoen], his wife, I took

11     them to Visoko and visited them once again there.  That's why I was so

12     surprised by what he had said here, what he had signed here.

13        Q.   Sir, Mrs. Prosecutor asked you about how your fellow policemen

14     viewed these events that were to the detriment of the non-Serbs.  The

15     colleagues who worked with you, including Mr. Vesic, what was their view

16     of such developments?

17        A.   Well, again, I can't give you a specific answer.  I can only give

18     you an answer in general terms.  Bearing in mind that the situation was

19     out of the ordinary, any military authority, or rather, a mixed military

20     and civilian authority or whatnot, if that is in place, then it is not

21     within the capabilities of the police to have the situation under their

22     control, rather it is the military and that was that.  Of course, all the

23     attempts invested by the police to enforce a rule of law was impeded by

24     the fact that there was this mixed civilian and military authority in

25     place.  However, as human beings, Mr. Vesic and all the other colleagues,

Page 26072

 1     the managerial staff and ordinary policemen did, of course, condemn such

 2     practices and there were certain responses to that as well.  But I don't

 3     know if I can explain anything further.

 4        Q.   Well, finally, the incident you referred to, the shooting that

 5     happened in the month of August, do you know whose response was this?

 6     Who reacted to these killings?  Were they soldiers, policemen, or

 7     somebody else?

 8        A.   Well, let me tell you this:  As I answered the Prosecutor, I

 9     don't know who exactly it was.  I know for a fact that it was not

10     policemen.  Presumably they were either soldiers or rogue paramilitary

11     structures.  Personally, I truly don't know.  I don't know that it had

12     ever been uncovered, really.

13             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, sir.  I have no more

14     questions of you.

15             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Smajlovic, we thank you for coming to the

16     Tribunal to give your testimony.  You are now released and we wish you a

17     safe journey back to your home.  The usher would escort you out of the

18     courtroom because we are not rising immediately.  We have certain

19     procedural matters with which to deal.  Thank you again, sir.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

21                           [The witness withdrew]

22             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, while the witness is

23     being taken out of the courtroom, I would like officially to tender the

24     65 ter 8D2 into evidence.

25             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

Page 26073

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit 2D187, Your Honours.  Thank you.

 2             JUDGE HALL:  Counsel have admitted that they have a number of

 3     procedural matters with which to raise but before I call on counsel, I

 4     would alert you to the fact when you see the next revision of the

 5     calendar, we have decided to transfer the third session of Friday the

 6     9th of December to the day before, so in other words, he would have an

 7     extended sitting on Thursday and have two sessions on the Friday.

 8             Yes, Ms. Korner.

 9             MR. ZECEVIC:  Sorry, perhaps I can deal with my matter first

10     because we would need to go in private session for that, if it pleases

11     the Court.

12             JUDGE HALL:  We go into private session.

13                           [Private session]

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 26074











11 Pages 26074-26075 redacted. Private session.















Page 26076

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14                           [Open session]

15             THE REGISTRAR:  We are in open session, Your Honours.

16             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, I sent an e-mail which I hope I

17     entitled properly as forewarned is forearmed to various members of the

18     Defence team and to your Legal Officer about the matters I wanted to

19     raise today.  Your Honours, we are coming towards the end of the sittings

20     for this year and the end of the Defence case now.  It will be completed

21     in the first week of sitting possibly with a trickle over into the second

22     week, so can I say there's some really urgent decisions that need to be

23     taken.

24             First of all, Your Honours, a number of outstanding rulings,

25     which are regrettably beginning to accumulate again.  In particular,

Page 26077

 1     there are three.  First is from our point of view, the application we

 2     made in July to re-open our case to add death certificates that we had

 3     applied for as a result of the Defence objections to the proof-of-death

 4     database, and which as we pointed out, have been coming in.  Since we

 5     originally filed that motion, I believe some 200 or so, possibly more,

 6     have been supplied.

 7             Now, therefore, we would -- we would have to first of all, send

 8     them in for translation, I'll come back to translation which has already

 9     been ordered and then apply to add those as well.  But we don't want to

10     waste anybody's time if Your Honours are not going to allow us to re-open

11     our case to add these death certificates.  So we are really asking that

12     we may have, as a matter of real urgency now, a ruling on whether we can

13     re-open our case to put in those death certificates.  Because I say it

14     has --

15             JUDGE HALL:  The -- as we would -- as the Chamber always is

16     constrained to say when counsel reminds us of what appears to them to be

17     our delinquency in terms of the progress of these rulings, they are all

18     they haven't been lost in our system but they are all in various stages

19     of the progress.  But in terms of the proof of -- these death

20     certificates, that is and this may sound very cryptic to you, as I am

21     expressing it now, very simple but also very complicated, and the

22     complication, what you've just touched on underlies a part of the

23     complication that this is almost a moving application and to the extent

24     that we have not yet pronounced on it is connected with addressing that

25     reality.

Page 26078

 1             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, I perfectly understand.  I mean, it's

 2     a principle of whether we are allowed to re-open our case for this

 3     effect.  I can I say straightaway, I do understand that all of

 4     Your Honours are engaged in other matters which are obviously taking up

 5     time.  The trouble is that the Defence for Zupljanin will close its case

 6     and there's a question of what happens after that and I want to come on

 7     to that in a minute.  Your Honour, can I deal with a question of

 8     translations.  Your Honours ordered us, by the close of the Defence case,

 9     to get translated the underlying documents for the POD.  We've put in a

10     total of 607 requests for the underlying documents have to be translated

11     with the dead-line to be the end of the Defence case, which as I say is

12     likely to be if not the first week that we sit in December, the second

13     week.  We gave them, therefore, a dead-line of the 30th -- CLSS a

14     dead-line of the 30th of November months ago, I may say, we didn't give

15     an arbitrary one like that.  Of the 607 requests, we've had 372 completed

16     and 235 remain outstanding and we are told by CLSS - we've sought an

17     update this morning - there's no prospect of them finalizing those

18     translations by the 30th of November.  We'll wait and see what happens by

19     the, what is it, the 19th of December, I think it is.  Or the 17th.  But

20     that's the reality.  We haven't filed them at the moment because we

21     didn't want to file endless little motions; we want to do the whole thing

22     together.  That I am afraid is the state of play at present and we may

23     need to take further guidance from the Trial Chamber on what you would

24     like us to do.

25             Your Honours, rebuttal evidence for Stanisic.  It's really linked

Page 26079

 1     with one of the other matters which is trial scheduling in January.

 2     Originally, as I raise before Your Honours, Rasic was due to be heard by

 3     two of Your Honours from the 8th of January, we start or 7th.  A

 4     Scheduling Order came out, I understand, either today or yesterday,

 5     moving Rasic to the end of January, I think it's the 23rd.  So not the

 6     end.  So there's two weeks.  And obviously it doesn't make it clear in

 7     that decision whether it's Your Honours' intention to sit on this case or

 8     the Haradinaj case in January.

 9             JUDGE HALL:  Let me put you at ease.  We intend when we

10     reconvene -- when we take the adjournment at the winter recess to

11     reconvene on Tuesday the 10th in this case, Stanisic.

12             MS. KORNER:  Right.  Well, thank you very much, Your Honours.

13     Well, that's of assistance because as I said, I raise the question of the

14     rebuttal evidence.  We really do need to have a ruling on that and also

15     when it would be scheduled.  Whether if you rule that we make or one or

16     more of the witnesses we have applied, whether we should have one

17     available for what remains of the last week of December.  You heard from

18     Mr. Zecevic that he objects to that.  Because he wants to do

19     investigations.

20             JUDGE HALL:  Well, we are about, of course, to go into the what

21     is an hiatus in this case while Judge Delvoie and I sit in the other case

22     which we are sitting, but during that -- when we reconvene in this case

23     on the 5th of December, we fully expect, and for obvious reasons, I'm

24     reluctant to crawl out on a limb lest I have to undergo the embarrassment

25     of having to come back in, but the time we reconvene on the 5th of

Page 26080

 1     December, you would have these matters.  We would have rendered our

 2     decision on these matters.

 3             MS. KORNER:  Your Honour, that's very, as I say, it was really

 4     just to bring it all back to mind, as it were.

 5             The next matter is this:  We do intend at the moment to apply to

 6     recall rebuttal evidence in respect of the evidence called by the

 7     Zupljanin Defence and, therefore, it would be helpful to know when

 8     Your Honours would expect us to file that application, and indeed when it

 9     would be intended to start, if again Your Honours grant leave, that

10     evidence.  Clearly it can't be before the Christmas break because we've

11     got to file.  We still haven't got to the end of the Zupljanin evidence.

12     And one of the -- part of the request is whether we have made a decision

13     about certain witnesses that we would apply to call, not necessarily the

14     final because as I say, the case hasn't yet been completed.  But whether

15     Your Honours would wish us to file, as it were, piecemeal, as we did with

16     the Stanisic Defence.  Effectively, we filed one motion and then filed a

17     second.

18             JUDGE HALL:  Could you remind me as it to whether you had done it

19     in that manner because the Chamber had asked you to do so?

20             MS. KORNER:  No, we did it because we couldn't get the seconds

21     witness that we applied to call in respect of Stanisic, we hadn't got the

22     statement at the time.  I think what happened was we gave Mr. Zecevic an

23     undertaking that we wouldn't waited until the end of his case or

24     something like that, or end of September and we would file what we wanted

25     to call.  But clearly with the Christmas break coming up, it may well be

Page 26081

 1     that the best way of dealing with it is to file a motion about the

 2     persons that we already know that we want to apply to call and wait to

 3     see if there's anything else.

 4                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 5             JUDGE HALL:  Well, provided of course that there is no direct

 6     prohibition in the rules against it, you would continue, you should

 7     continue to proceed in the manner that you did with Stanisic.

 8             MS. KORNER:  In other words once we made a decision --

 9             JUDGE HALL:  Yes.

10             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, certainly we are prepared to do that.

11             Your Honours, then the next question again I'm just raising all

12     these matters for Your Honours to consider at this stage, is the scope of

13     rebuttal evidence.  The Prosecution have -- in Stanisic case said these

14     are the matters which were raised by the Stanisic Defence, here is the

15     evidence we want to call.  But we are calling witnesses, if we are

16     allowed, who clearly can give other evidence.  Is Your Honour going to

17     give the Defence leave to go outside the rebuttal aspects because

18     obviously from scheduling point of view, that would mean they take

19     longer, and so that is a matter I say that I'm raising.  I've given

20     advance notice for Your Honours to consider.

21             Your Honours, witnesses to be called by Your Honours, if any.

22     Your Honours, we would want to use the break and the time in between

23     other cases being scheduled to prepare for those.  So if, I think all

24     sides would want to do that.  If Your Honours do intend to call witnesses

25     yourselves, it would be very helpful if we could know that before the

Page 26082

 1     Christmas break.

 2                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 3             JUDGE HALL:  That again is something that we have given thought

 4     to and would seek to have that order out in due time to allow you to

 5     prepare for it.

 6             MS. KORNER:  Yes.

 7             Your Honours, finally, sorry to keep going back to this,

 8     Your Honours made an order two days ago about the proofing note for the

 9     next witness whose number I forget that the Defence are calling, but

10     Your Honours, Your Honours made an order that it should be Wednesday

11     before the Monday that he testifies.  Your Honours, at the moment we have

12     eight lines, vague in the extreme, in a 65 ter summary of what this

13     witness is going to say.  Your Honours saw from the last witness that

14     when he was actually seen by lawyers, a whole load of new evidence came

15     out which could well have occasioned the Prosecution having to say we

16     need to investigate what he says.  As it turns out, his source of

17     information was so bad that it didn't require any further time to be

18     asked for.  But, Your Honours, we would ask because otherwise it just

19     gives us two working days, effectively, to investigate that the proofing

20     note for the next witness who is coming on Monday the 5th of December,

21     should be given to us a full week in advance.  That gives the Defence a

22     week to go and interview him and see what he is going to say.

23             JUDGE HALL:  Of course, our decision about Wednesday was -- was a

24     decision taking everything into consideration and if to the extent that

25     it's necessary, I repeat that we expect the proofing notes be something

Page 26083

 1     which are helpful to the Chamber and to the side opposite.  It is of no

 2     assistance to put in a pro forma, to quote Ms. Korner, eight-line

 3     document which doesn't tell persons anything.  And to the extent it's

 4     necessary to repeat it, we repeat it.

 5             MS. KORNER:  No, Your Honour, sorry, I'm asking for two days

 6     before the order because as I say, because we didn't know what he is

 7     going to say, what areas he is going to cover, in depth, we -- and we may

 8     want to when we get the full account of, as full as the Defence are

 9     prepared to give us, what he says we may want to investigate as we would

10     have wanted to rather more fully with the last witness.  I'm asking that

11     the order be varied from the Wednesday the 30th to Monday the 28th of

12     November.

13             JUDGE HALL:  I didn't misunderstand you, Ms. Korner, but as I

14     recall, although I confess that today I cannot remember the full

15     reasoning why we came up with Wednesday rather than Friday, which the

16     Prosecution had asked for, but the, I think it was Mr. Aleksic who was

17     explaining the -- between the time allowed to -- for investigations that

18     they could conduct where the witness resides and then the time that the

19     witness would be travelling to The Hague is how we came --

20             MS. KORNER:  I am sorry, yes, I know, Your Honour, I know I heard

21     Mr. Aleksic say this.  The point that I'm trying to make is this:  We

22     asked for the Friday ten days in advance and Your Honours said the

23     following Wednesday.  It really is not incumbent on the Defence not to

24     have taken proper statements in advance and they can and are, indeed, as

25     I understand it, intending to go to Banja Luka.  So the witness coming

Page 26084

 1     here has got nothing to do with it.  All of this should have been done a

 2     long time ago, but all right, given particularly the Zupljanin Defence

 3     who have a number of investigators.

 4             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Krgovic, do you have a difficulty with

 5     accommodating the Prosecution in this regard by two days?  Wednesday, of

 6     course, is the absolute outer limit, but if, of course, you are in a

 7     position do it before then.

 8             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, may I first say that

 9     I'm surprised that the Prosecution, eight months after having received a

10     summary on this witness which was given in keeping with the 65 ter rule

11     to give basic facts to which the witness would testify, and in view of

12     the enormous resources they have and numerous investigators they have, to

13     now say that they were unable to collect any sort of information.  So

14     first of all, may I say that I'm utterly surprised to hear this.

15             On the one hand, it seems, well, not to say ridiculous, but it

16     does seem a bit odd and unrealistic.  On the other hand, this coming

17     witness will speak of a specific period and about his specific duties and

18     conditions under which he worked.  His testimony will not go beyond that.

19     And, of course, we will send proofing notes, if any, as soon as we have

20     them.  I do not believe that he will be testifying beyond what is

21     contained in the 65 ter summary.

22             On the other hand, I would like to remind the Trial Chamber that

23     the situations as described by Ms. Korner were ones that we faced at

24     least on 30 occasions during their presentation of case where we would,

25     all at once, have information about members of the police who had never

Page 26085

 1     featured in any of the earlier testimonies.  We did our best in view of

 2     the time that -- and the resources we had in our disposal to make do and

 3     do the work over several days.  So I think that what Ms. Korner said

 4     about the fact that they were not able to prepare for witnesses does not

 5     hold true.  I think that the same practice was, therefore, Prosecution

 6     witnesses in respect of some of whom we did not even receive proofing

 7     notes.

 8             As regards our schedule, we will be going out to Banja Luka on

 9     Monday only.  Because of my duties in the Gvero trial and Mr. Aleksic is

10     in the Pavkovic trial, we plan to make the trip in the week of 28.  Only

11     thereafter will we be able to present proofing notes, if any.  For this

12     reason, I don't think that the dead-line should be taken back.

13             MS. KORNER: [Overlapping speakers] Your Honours, that's not what

14     Mr. Krgovic told Mr. Aleksic.  He said they were going out next week.

15     However, Mr. Krgovic keeps going back to this inaccurate description of

16     the witnesses that we called.  Each and every one of the witnesses that

17     we called there were statements or interviews conducted with them.  They

18     said occasionally from time to time a little that was not in there, but

19     not for 30 times that Mr. Krgovic refers to.  The difference is that all

20     we have -- it's no good Mr. Krgovic saying we've got six lines.  We

21     simply do not know the detail, at all, of what the witness is going to

22     say.  And equally, as Mr. Krgovic well knows, I haven't waited eight

23     months to make these, I have made repeated applications, repeated

24     applications to Your Honours to order proper statements to be given to us

25     from the beginning.  Your Honours, I'm sorry, I do ask that Your Honours

Page 26086

 1     make the order.  There's no reason Mr. Aleksic can't go to Banja Luka

 2     next week, there's no reason by any the three investigators in Banja Luka

 3     that are employed by the Zupljanin Defence cannot take a proper

 4     statement.

 5             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you, Ms. Korner, we've heard you.  We don't

 6     propose to revise our order.  Our order stands.  Wednesday.

 7             MS. KORNER:  Well, Your Honours, I just think that I should say

 8     that equality of arms does apply equally to the Prosecution.  But I've

 9     heard what Your Honours say.

10             JUDGE HALL:  Are there any other matters which counsel wish to

11     raise?

12             MS. KORNER:  Yes, there are.  Your Honours may have noticed that

13     Mr. Dobbyn joined me in court at the last break.  The reason for that is

14     this will be his last appearance before Your Honours because regrettably

15     from all our points of view, he is leaving the Tribunal to go to practice

16     elsewhere.  So I thought it was worth recognising in open, public his

17     contribution to the Prosecution team.

18             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you, Ms. Korner.

19             And the Chamber thanks Mr. Dobbyn for the assistance that he

20     would have provided.  As I would have had occasion to say in the past,

21     although these are adversarial proceedings, they can only work if there

22     is co-operation between everyone concerned, between and among everyone

23     concerned.  And we certainly thank Mr. Dobbyn for the assistance that he

24     has provided us over the years that he has been with the Chamber and we

25     wish him all the best in his future pursuits.

Page 26087

 1             MR. DOBBYN:  Your Honours, if I could just say briefly that it

 2     has been a privilege for me to be working on this trial and to appear in

 3     front of Your Honours and I'd like to thank Your Honours and my

 4     colleagues in the OTP and my learned friends for Defence and everyone

 5     else who has been working in an around the courtroom over the past three

 6     years or so for helping make this a very special experience for me and

 7     I'd like to wish you all the best, both for the rest of the trial and for

 8     whatever comes after that.

 9             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.  So if there are no other matters we take

10     the adjournment in this case to reconvene on the Monday the 5th of

11     December.  Thank you.

12                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.25 p.m.

13                           to be reconvened on Monday, the 5th day of

14                           December, 2011, at 9.00 a.m.