Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 2398

 1                           Thursday, 10 January 2013

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.

 5             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Good morning to everyone in and around the

 6     courtroom.

 7             Mr. Registrar, could you call the case, please.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  This is case

 9     IT-04-75-T, the Prosecutor versus Goran Hadzic.  Thank you.

10             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.  May we have the appearances, please,

11     starting with the Prosecution.

12             MR. STRINGER:  Good morning, Mr. President, Your Honour

13     Judge Mindua.  Douglas Stringer with Alexis Demirdjian; intern,

14     Adam Birnbaum; and Case Manager, Thomas Laugel for the Prosecution.

15             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.  For the Defence Mr. Zivanovic.

16             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Good morning, Your Honours.  For the Defence of

17     Goran Hadzic, Zoran Zivanovic and Christopher Gosnell.  Thank you.

18             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.  Mr. Stringer, I understood that you

19     have something to raise before the witness comes in.

20             Mr. Demirdjian, sorry.

21             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Good morning, Your Honours.

22             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Good morning.

23             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Allow me to wish everyone in and around the

24     courtroom a happy new year.  I have a practical suggestion to make in

25     relation to the documents that are put in the report of Dr. Nielsen.  You


Page 2399

 1     have probably seen the exchange of e-mails we've had in the last few

 2     days.  Now, there are two categories of documents essentially that we're

 3     going to be looking at today, documents that are footnoted in the report

 4     and documents that are not footnoted in the report which have been shown

 5     to the expert in December.

 6             Now, in order to keep matters neat, I understand there will be a

 7     decision eventually about the admission of these documents.  I would

 8     suggest that for the documents that are in the report, I will not seek

 9     their admission during the examination-in-chief of the witness, whereas

10     documents that are not in the footnotes, that are not in the report,

11     those ones I will seek to tender them, so that at the end of the

12     examination-in-chief when I seek to tender the report and the footnoted

13     exhibits, if there are any arguments, and I believe there will be some,

14     we can keep those that are in the footnotes in one set, one bundle, if I

15     could call it that way.

16             Does that make any sense?

17             JUDGE DELVOIE:  I'm a little bit surprised, Mr. Demirdjian,

18     because I thought that that was exactly what we proposed in the e-mail

19     exchange.

20             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Well --

21             JUDGE DELVOIE:  So that means that we agree.

22             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  We agree.

23             JUDGE DELVOIE:  If there is no objection from the Defence.

24             MR. GOSNELL:  Good morning, Mr. President, Your Honour

25     Judge Mindua.  My understanding was that essentially there would be a --

Page 2400

 1     in a sense a formal tender of the documents at the close of the direct

 2     examination by the Prosecution and then there would be a subsequent

 3     decision by the Chamber, and then we would have an opportunity in the

 4     course of -- well, at some stage to make any submissions.  So in that

 5     sense that was the manner in which I thought it would be carried out.

 6             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Unless -- unless I am wrong, but I thought that

 7     that particular course of action would only apply to the footnote

 8     documents and not to the other ones.

 9             MR. GOSNELL:  Yes, indeed, Mr. President, that was my

10     understanding.

11             JUDGE DELVOIE:  So we all agree.

12             MR. GOSNELL:  We do, I believe.

13             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Okay.

14             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  And I just wanted to clarify that because I will

15     be displaying these documents that are in the report, I will be showing

16     them to allow the witness to expand.  Even when I show them, I will not

17     seek to tender them at that very moment.  I will call up the 65 ter

18     number, but I will not seek to tender at that very moment.

19             JUDGE DELVOIE:  I -- I understand, Mr. Demirdjian.  I think in --

20     in -- it would be helpful, then, if you could indicate that it is a

21     footnoted document --

22             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Yes.

23             JUDGE DELVOIE:  -- that you are showing to the witness --

24             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Absolutely.

25             JUDGE DELVOIE:  -- so we know that we are not to expect your


Page 2401

 1     request to tender it immediately afterwards.  Thank you very much.

 2             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  That's all I had.

 3             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Okay.  The witness may be brought in.

 4             And may the record reflect that we sit pursuant to Rule 15 bis,

 5     Judge Hall being absent.  Thank you.

 6                           [The witness entered court]

 7             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Good morning, Mr. Nielsen.  Thank you for coming

 8     to The Hague to assist the Tribunal.  Could you for the record state your

 9     name and date of birth, please.

10             THE WITNESS:  Yes, Your Honour.  Good morning.

11     Christian Axboe Nielsen, born it 12 September 1973.

12             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you very much.  I have to tell you, you of

13     course already know, that you're going to make the solemn declaration now

14     which exposes you to the penalties of perjury should you give misleading

15     or untruthful evidence to this Tribunal.  Could you now please read the

16     solemn declaration.

17             THE WITNESS:  I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the

18     whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

19                           WITNESS:  CHRISTIAN AXBOE NIELSEN

20             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you very much.  You may be seated.

21             THE WITNESS:  Thank you.

22             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Demirdjian.

23             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Thank you, Your Honours.

24                           Examination by Mr. Demirdjian:

25        Q.   Good morning, Dr. Nielsen.

Page 2402

 1        A.   Good morning.

 2        Q.   Could I to begin ask you a few questions about your professional

 3     and educational background before we get into the subject matter of your

 4     report.  First of all, could you tell the Court what is your current

 5     occupation.

 6        A.   I am currently employed as associate professor of south-east

 7     European studies at the University of Aarhus in Denmark.

 8        Q.   Very well.  And while I'm asking you a few questions about the

 9     background perhaps we could display Dr. Nielsen's CV which is at

10     65 ter 3215.  That is at tab 27.

11             Doctor, could you tell us a little bit about your educational

12     background, perhaps dealing only with the university level onwards.

13        A.   Yes.  I did all of my university studies in the United States.  I

14     took a bachelors degree in political science and Germanic languages and

15     literatures at Washington University in St. Louis.  I then took a master

16     of international affairs degree specialising in human rights and

17     humanitarian affairs in east Central Europe at Columbia University's

18     school of international and public affairs.  I then continued on at

19     Columbia University at the graduate school of arts and sciences where I

20     received a Ph.D. in east central European history particularly

21     specialising in the history of Yugoslavia between the two world wars.

22        Q.   Very well.  And following -- and this was, I believe, your Ph.D.

23     was in -- that would be 1999 -- 2002; is that right?  In May of 2002.

24        A.   Yes, that is correct.

25        Q.   Okay.  And following your -- your Ph.D., it is correct to say

Page 2403

 1     that for a number of years you worked for the Office of the Prosecutor at

 2     the ICTY?

 3        A.   Yes, I worked for the Office of the Prosecutor at the ICTY from

 4     2002 until 2004 and then again from 2006 until the end of 2007.

 5        Q.   Very well.  Are you also currently working as a consultant for

 6     any other Tribunal?

 7        A.   Yes.  I am currently working as an external consultant analyst

 8     for one of the Defence teams at the Special Tribunal for Lebanon, and I

 9     also work as an external expert consultant for the Canadian Department of

10     Justice on cases that their crimes against humanity and war crimes

11     section handles.

12        Q.   Very well.  Returning now to your current occupation, you

13     explained that you were teaching at the University of Aarhus.  What is

14     your area of specialisation?

15        A.   I am a historian by training.  I specialise in the history of

16     south-eastern Europe or the Balkans with a particular focus on the area

17     that used to be Yugoslavia.

18        Q.   Very well.  And are you currently conducting any research or are

19     you working on any publications?

20        A.   Yes.  I have a forthcoming publication on the dictatorship of

21     King Aleksandar in Yugoslavia, and I'm currently working on a new

22     research project which involves producing a history of the police in

23     socialist Yugoslavia.

24        Q.   And this -- on this last relating to the history of the police,

25     can you expand a bit on what is the subject matter exactly?

Page 2404

 1        A.   My intent is to write a complete history of the

 2     Ministry of Internal Affairs in the socialist Federal Republic of

 3     Yugoslavia from the end of World War II until the collapse of Yugoslavia

 4     in 1991, and I am conducting this research as I did with my previous

 5     research for the Ph.D. and also research done here at the Tribunal based

 6     on archival material that I myself am retrieving from the relevant

 7     archives in the former Yugoslavia, in this case in particular the archive

 8     of the Republic of Slovenia.

 9        Q.   Very well.  And prior to working on this research, is it correct

10     to say that you have done other research on police related matters?

11        A.   Yes, that is correct.  I would point out that my dissertation

12     that I wrote at Columbia University was overwhelmingly based on police

13     sources from the Kingdom of Yugoslavia.  I then during my years working

14     for the Tribunal focused again primarily on police sources, and in that

15     sense there is a continuity in my current research which also is

16     predominantly focused on police sources and relevant political and other

17     material.

18        Q.   Going specifying to your years working for the Tribunal and the

19     years following that, it is correct that you have testified at the

20     Tribunal on three separate occasions for three separate trials?

21        A.   Yes, that is correct.

22        Q.   That would be the case of Krajisnik, Stanisic and Zupljanin, and

23     Karadzic; is that correct?

24        A.   Yes, that is correct.

25        Q.   What was the scope of your reports in those cases?

Page 2405

 1        A.   In all three cases I focused on the Ministry of Internal Affairs

 2     of the Serbian Republic in Bosnia and Herzegovina, its establishment and

 3     its performance from November 1990 until the end of 1992.

 4        Q.   Thank you.

 5             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Your Honours, Dr. Nielsen's CV is not directly

 6     footnoted in his report.  May I ask to tender 65 ter 3215.

 7             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Admitted and marked.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  It shall be assigned Exhibit P364.  Thank you.

 9             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Thank you very much.

10        Q.   Dr. Nielsen, I'd like to turn to your report now and to the

11     methodology you applied in preparing this report.  Is it correct to say

12     that at the end of the year 2011 you met with members of the

13     Office of the Prosecutor and agreed on terms of reference and the scope

14     of the report which you were to prepare for this trial?

15        A.   To be honest, I cannot recall whether I actually met with members

16     of the Office of the Prosecutor at the end of 2011, but I certainly had

17     communications with the Office of the Prosecutor during the course of

18     which I agreed to produce the report which is before us today, and I was

19     given terms of reference on the basis of which I was to produce that

20     report.

21        Q.   Very well.  And would it be correct to say that the scope of your

22     reporting included mainly two items, one being the historical and

23     political developments in the former Yugoslavia and Croatia between the

24     years 1990 and 1993, and the second would be to focus on the MUP

25     structures in Croatia during again the years 1991 to 1993, particularly

Page 2406

 1     in the Serb entities?  Would that be correct?

 2        A.   Yes, that is correct.

 3        Q.   I'd like you to explain to the Court how you prepared your report

 4     and more specifically how you selected the sources for the preparation of

 5     your report.

 6        A.   I was initially provided with a quite substantial number of

 7     documents and also videos by the Office of the Prosecutor.  This was a

 8     selection that had been made by the Prosecution team.  I was invited to

 9     review those documents as a way of commencing work on the report.  Once I

10     became more familiar with the material that I had been provided with, I

11     then subsequently identified on my own a significant additional number of

12     documents that I wished to examine, and I requested and received all the

13     documents that I thought would be additionally relevant from the

14     Office of the Prosecutor.  At several instances, the Office of the

15     Prosecutor of its own volition also identified new material that they

16     deemed relevant for the report, and I was provided with this material and

17     asked to review it to see whether it should be included in my analysis.

18        Q.   Now -- and is it correct to say that you were also provided

19     access to the databases of the Office of the Prosecutor?

20        A.   Yes, although I did not myself conduct a substantial number of

21     searches on the OTP's databases for the -- for documents relevant to this

22     report.  I was in all cases able to identify and obtain when I wanted any

23     relevant additional material.  This material was identified by myself

24     largely based on review of the initial batch of documentation which

25     caused me to identify other relevant documents and also by reviewing

Page 2407

 1     earlier reports and judgements of this Tribunal that are pertinent, in

 2     particular, to the Republika Srpska Krajina.

 3        Q.   Very well.  In reviewing this material, would you be reviewing

 4     the originals or the translations?

 5        A.   It is important for me to stress as I have done in previous

 6     testimony at this Tribunal that I in all cases conduct my analysis and

 7     base my conclusions exclusively on the B/C/S originals of the documents.

 8     I speak, read, and write B/C/S fluently, and I in all cases rely on the

 9     original documentation as I do in my historical research as well.  This

10     also means that I in most cases have not examined, unless I was asked by

11     the Prosecution to do so, any of the relevant translations of these

12     documents.

13        Q.   And this is something I may have skipped on your resume.  Is it

14     correct to say that you also teach the language?

15        A.   Yes.  I have also taught B/C/S at the university level in

16     Denmark.

17        Q.   Thank you.  In addition to the material that you have had access

18     to at the ICTY, did you also use other sources?

19        A.   Yes.  In addition to the material that I received from the ICTY,

20     I also used a small number of secondary sources, monographs produced by

21     other authors and made limited use of those sources in those cases where

22     the primary source base, that is the documents possessed by the Tribunal,

23     were unable to provide relevant information on, in particular, events

24     that I knew to have happened during this period and which would, in my

25     opinion, have been curiously absent if I had not been able to cite them

Page 2408

 1     somehow.  Therefore, I made use of a number of works, a number of books,

 2     that I myself identified and which we had scanned and ERN'd.

 3        Q.   Very well.  Now, since we're talking about the use of books

 4     published by other authors, there are a few names that come to mind.  For

 5     example, I've seen that you used the book of Ilija Petrovic, the book

 6     published by Nikica Baric, and a chapter of a book published by

 7     Caslav Ocic.  Can you tell us how you came about to select these books

 8     and how much you relied on them?

 9        A.   I should amend something that I just stated earlier.  I consider

10     as an historian and as an analyst the books of Ilija Petrovic and

11     Caslav Ocic - Ocic, excuse me - to be in both cases primary sources.

12     That is how they would be considered by professional historians because

13     they are written by persons who themselves were participants in the

14     events they describe.  In the case of Caslav Ocic, he was the

15     Foreign Minister for a time of the Republika Srpska Krajina.  He produced

16     what I find to be a quite handy chronology of events in

17     Republika Srpska Krajina, and in the case of Ilija Petrovic, he provides

18     a detailed narrative of political and other events in Eastern Slavonia,

19     Baranja, and Srem.  He was himself a principal participant these events.

20     I should note that in accordance with the professional standards of

21     history and analysis, I weight in my analysis those accounts keeping in

22     mind that those authors themselves have their own subjective points of

23     view, but I have to quite some extent compared their accounts to other

24     documents which bear on similar events and particularly as accords the

25     dating of specific meetings or specific events in Eastern Slavonia and in

Page 2409

 1     Krajina as a whole, I find them to be reliable in their recounting of

 2     when certain events took place, and it is as such that I have made

 3     limited use of those books.

 4             In the case of Nikica Baric, he is a Croat historian, a young

 5     Croat historian, and I would not normally make use of a book by a Croat

 6     historian on what he calls the Serb uprising in Croatia, particularly

 7     because of the risk that he has a bias, but I would point out that not

 8     only do I make very limited use of this book, again mostly to establish

 9     points of chronology, but that Baric's work has been favourably received

10     throughout the former Yugoslavia, and he has published in -- on the RSK

11     in peer reviewed historical journals of the highest order in Serbia and

12     as such is perceived by Serbian historians as being a prominent historian

13     of this period.

14        Q.   Speaking of a peer review, Dr. Nielsen, could you explain to the

15     Trial Chamber the difference, perhaps, between how a historian would

16     select documents and incorporate in a report as opposed to how lawyers

17     would approach the admissibility of the document?

18        A.   Well, at the most basic level I would again come back to this

19     distinction which I think to some extent the court, lawyers, and

20     historians share which is the important distinction between primary

21     sources and secondly sources.  Primary sources being documents produced

22     by government institutions, political parties, et cetera, who themselves

23     are actually participating in, as it were, historical events.  Here again

24     I include the memoirs correspondence, telephone conversations, whatever

25     else may be accessible, e-mails, of principal actors who themselves

Page 2410

 1     participate in the historical events that a court or an historian is

 2     examining.

 3             I then would mention secondary sources which in most cases are

 4     works, scholarly works, or publicistic works which provide second-hand

 5     summaries or accounts of these events, and in those cases, of course, I

 6     think both historians and lawyers would attach a much lesser weight to

 7     those sources not only because those sources to a large extent are

 8     informed by hearsay and by subjective considerations of other evidence or

 9     source material but because they are themselves also distant in time and

10     place from the original accounts and are not themselves participants in

11     the events.

12             So to that extent, I think particularly as an analyst, as a

13     historian in my work for the Tribunal, I've tried in this report as well

14     to rely as much as possible on primary sources and in particular I would

15     note primary sources produced by the Serbian side in order that we can

16     reduce the inherent bias that would emerge if I were instead to rely on

17     accounts of these events produced by the Croats.

18        Q.   And to close on this chapter, Dr. Nielsen, can you explain to the

19     Court the selection you have made of newspaper articles?

20        A.   Yes.  In a small number of cases in the report, I have used

21     newspaper articles or segments of television shows, what we generally as

22     analysts refer to as open sources.  I believe that in the vast majority

23     of cases, I've again availed myself of Serb open sources again to reduce

24     the risk of any bias that might have occurred had I relied instead on

25     Croat open sources from this period.

Page 2411

 1             I also rely on a number of interviews that have been published in

 2     the Serbian media in particular and which are interviews with principal

 3     actors in the RSK or other areas of -- other earlier areas of -- and

 4     political structures of the Krajina.

 5        Q.   Speaking of interviews --

 6             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Demirdjian.

 7             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Yes, Your Honours.

 8             JUDGE DELVOIE:  May I have just one moment, please.

 9             Dr. Nielsen, you said that:

10             "In particularly I would note that primary sources produced by

11     the Serbian hide in order that we can reduce inherent bias that would

12     emerge if we were instead to rely on accounts of these events produced by

13     the Croats."

14             Could you clarify that for me, please.

15             THE WITNESS:  Yes, Your Honour.  I believe given what is known

16     about the political police and military organs of all sides in the

17     conflict in the former Yugoslavia, particularly in the period from 1990

18     until 1995 that it would be extremely problematic to write an analytical

19     account of, for example, the police in Serb-controlled areas of Croatia

20     that would rely heavily on Croat sources.  Those Croat sources would have

21     a very high interest in portraying the Serbian side and their actions in

22     the most negative light possible, and it would be very difficult for me

23     to be in a position to corroborate whether those Croat sources were

24     actually providing reliable accounts or not.

25             Conversely, I believe that the Serbian/Yugoslav sides in the same

Page 2412

 1     period have little logical inherent interest in portraying their own

 2     actions negatively.  On the contrary, they would have an inherent

 3     interest in portraying them more favourably.  It follows for me as a

 4     point of logic that if the Serb or Yugoslav forces speak of events which

 5     they, I believe, are problematic, negative, or detrimental to the

 6     security situation, then there is a substantial likelihood that such

 7     events did, in fact, occur.  For the same reason in dealing with the

 8     Bosnian Serb Ministry of Internal Affairs, I relied almost exclusively on

 9     the Bosnian Serbs' own documents so as to avoid any bias that was

10     abundantly evident in the documents produced contemporaneously by the

11     Bosnian Muslims and the Bosnian Croats about the Bosnian Serb police.

12             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you very much.  Please proceed,

13     Mr. Demirdjian.

14             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Thank you, Your Honours.  Can we display on the

15     screen 65 ter 2130.  That's at tab 302.

16        Q.   Just to give an example of a newspaper article that you've

17     selected for the purposes of your report.

18             Dr. Nielsen, I don't know if you are able to see already the

19     B/C/S version on the left side of the screen.

20        A.   Yes, I can.

21        Q.   Very well.

22             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Can we scroll to the left and up in the B/C/S

23     version so we could see the author and the magazine this was published

24     in.  Towards the left, perhaps.  Are we able to see this?  In the B/C/S

25     version, can we see the left part of the -- the screen.  Is that the

Page 2413

 1     whole page?  Very well?

 2        Q.   Dr. Nielsen, do you recognise this article?

 3        A.   Yes, I recognise this as an interview of Goran Hadzic that I cite

 4     in the report.  If I maybe of assistance, I believe that the -- in the

 5     B/C/S version, the author's name, that is the journalist's name, appears

 6     at the end of the article rather than at the beginning.

 7        Q.   Thank you, Dr. Nielsen.  Quite right.  Now, this is a -- is

 8     "Intervju" a magazine or a newspaper?

 9             MR. GOSNELL:  Objection, Mr. President.  As you know, there is an

10     objection that we've made to this document being admitted as an exhibit.

11     Now, of course that doesn't in and of itself preclude hearing Mr. Nielsen

12     on his expert opinions about the content of that proposed exhibit, but I

13     would suggest that if ultimately you decide that this is not admissible,

14     going through this document in detail, hearing its content and having the

15     commentary of Mr. Nielsen -- Dr. Nielsen on these issues would undermine

16     any ultimate ruling that you make on admissibility.  So my suggestion

17     would be that we make a decision now on whether or not statements of

18     Mr. Hadzic to a journalist well after the events that are described in

19     the document are going to be admitted by this Chamber before we hear

20     Mr. Nielsen on it.

21             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Demirdjian.

22             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Yes.  I don't know if this will change my

23     learned friend's position -- I'm not sure if this is going to change my

24     learned friend's position, but I do not intend in exploring the newspaper

25     article at this stage.  I just want Dr. Nielsen to give us his

Page 2414

 1     explanation of how and why he selected this interview and how does he

 2     assess the reliability of it.  So I will not go into the details or even

 3     the substance of the article.  I don't know if that changes my learned

 4     friend's position on the matter, because we will be strictly relying on

 5     this article as a tool reference just to support what is said in the

 6     report and nothing else.

 7             MR. GOSNELL:  Well, it's hard for me to understand how he could

 8     make any comments about reliability without delving into the content at

 9     least to some degree.  And our position, to be clear, is that there are

10     not sufficient guarantees or indicia of reliability that the journalist

11     here accurately recorded what Mr. Hadzic may have said to the journalist.

12     It falls well below the standard of what would be deemed admissible by

13     this Chamber under regular circumstances.  And bootstrapping it to an

14     expert opinion doesn't change that.  In fact, it almost makes it worse.

15     So that's the basis for the objection.

16             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Well just in that case, Your Honours, I believe

17     that it would be -- it would be sufficient for Dr. Nielsen to simply

18     explain why and how he selected the newspaper article, again without

19     going into the substance, and if needs be if there's still a standing

20     objection we will have to see if we can find the journalist if there is

21     really a strong objection about the accuracy and reliability of the

22     article.  We can always make investigations to find if the journalist is

23     available, but at this stage it's really about the selection of sources

24     of newspaper articles in relation to -- and there are many more in the

25     report.

Page 2415

 1                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 2             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Please proceed as you indicated you would,

 3     Mr. Demirdjian.

 4             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Thank you, Your Honours.

 5             MR. GOSNELL:  Sorry, Mr. President.  Thank you.  I just have a

 6     request from my client which I think is a legitimate request.  Could we

 7     request that the image of Mr. Hadzic's children not be displayed to the

 8     public.

 9             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  That's fine.

10             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

11             Please proceed, Mr. Demirdjian.

12             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Thank you, Your Honours.  Could we go to the

13     last page in the B/C/S version, to the bottom part.

14        Q.   Dr. Nielsen, I believe that in the English version we could see

15     what -- the author Gordana Jovanovic.  Now, could you explain to us how

16     you came about to select this newspaper article and perhaps explain it to

17     the Judges what your assessment is of it?

18        A.   I cannot recall whether this was a document that was provided to

19     me by the OTP or whether I myself requested it.  I can comment, however,

20     that the reason I chose to cite it in the report is that this is an

21     interview with the accused, a relevant actor in the context of the RSK

22     and the RSK MUP.  The interview stems from "Intervju," which as the name

23     suggests is a Serbian magazine that published a large quantity of

24     interviews with important actors in Serb-controlled areas of Yugoslavia

25     in the mid 1990s.

Page 2416

 1             I had the ability in earlier years while working as an analyst to

 2     read many issues of "Intervju" and therefore am well familiar with this

 3     particular magazine and with the type of interviews and type of persons

 4     who were interviewed by the journalists working for this magazine.

 5             As an analyst, it is my experience that the interviews -- the

 6     content of the interviews in "Intervju" magazine often corresponds quite

 7     closely to statements made by those persons interviewed that have been

 8     stated publicly by those figures elsewhere on television, in political

 9     documents, in political speeches, et cetera.  Therefore, as an analyst, I

10     have no reason at present to doubt the veracity of the reporting or

11     transcription, if you will, of the interviews that appear in this

12     magazine, and I do not a priori have any recollections of significant

13     disputes post factum between journalists of this magazine and the persons

14     that they had interviewed regarding the content of these interviews as

15     published.

16        Q.   Very well.  Now, Dr. Nielsen, your report was made available at

17     the end of -- well, it was finalised in June and was made available to

18     the Defence at the end of June of 2012.  Since then, it is correct to say

19     that you were provided with a collection of new documents; is that right?

20        A.   Yes, that is correct.  I was recently provided with a collection

21     of documents from Serbia that had not been available to the Office of the

22     Prosecutor at the time that I produced my report.

23        Q.   Very well.  And did you have the opportunity to review some of

24     this material?

25        A.   Yes.


Page 2417

 1        Q.   Very well.  We'll be dealing with them at a later stage.  And it

 2     is correct to say that in December of last year, in 2012, you met with

 3     members of the Office of the Prosecutor for a proofing session at the end

 4     of which was prepared an errata sheet; is that right?

 5        A.   Yes, that is correct.

 6        Q.   And in this errata sheet a number of typographical corrections

 7     were made; is that right?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   Thank you.

10             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Could we go in private session for a moment,

11     please.

12             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Private session, please.

13                           [Private session]

14   (redacted)

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Page 2418

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10   (redacted)

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16   (redacted)

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20   (redacted)

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22   (redacted)

23                           [Open session]

24             THE REGISTRAR:  We're back in open session, Your Honours.  Thank

25     you.


Page 2419

 1             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

 2             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Thank you.

 3        Q.   This closes this chapter of my examination-in-chief, Dr. Nielsen.

 4     I would like to now turn to your report.  I believe you requested to have

 5     a copy available to you.  I have a printed copy here.  Unless there are

 6     any objections, I'd like to make this available to Dr. Nielsen.

 7             I will begin with the general historical and political

 8     background, and I will move through your report in the order that it is

 9     presented in there.  I'd like to begin with paragraph 3 where you quote

10     the census, the 1991 census in Croatia, which indicated that out of a

11     population of 4.7 million inhabitants in Croatia, 78 per cent were of the

12     Croatian ethnic background and 12 per cent of the population were of

13     Serbian ethnicity.

14             Just to clarify, you obtained these numbers directly from the

15     census results which were published by the Croatian bureau of statistics;

16     is that right?

17        A.   Yes, as is indicated in footnote 1.

18        Q.   And how -- to your knowledge, have these numbers ever been

19     contested or are these numbers accurate?

20        A.   To my knowledge, there has been no significant contestation of

21     this number.

22        Q.   Now, in the census, of course, you have a number of ethnic groups

23     which are listed.  You always have Croats, Serbs, ethnic Hungarians,

24     Ruthenians, et cetera, and you also have a part of the population which

25     is named Yugoslavs.  Can you tell us to your knowledge how we should

Page 2420

 1     assess this -- this -- this term "Yugoslavs"?

 2        A.   In socialist Yugoslavia there was in the later censuses the

 3     possibility of declaring oneself as a Yugoslav rather than as, for

 4     example, a Croat or a Serb.  Based on my knowledge as an historian,

 5     the -- those who identified themselves as Yugoslavs were primarily urban

 6     inhabitants of various cities in Yugoslavia, and in a significant number

 7     of cases persons who were born out of ethnically mixed marriages and

 8     therefore did not wish to choose one ethnicity over the other, but this

 9     category of Yugoslavs was never at any time one of the largest categories

10     of self-identification in the Yugoslav censuses.

11        Q.   Thank you.

12             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Demirdjian, just for an error in the -- in

13     the record.  It's not me giving evidence here.

14             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Yes, I can see that.

15             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

16             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:

17        Q.   If we can move now to paragraph 5 of your report where you

18     discuss the elections in Croatia in April and May of 1990.  You refer

19     here to the main political parties such as the HDZ and the SDS, and to

20     support that, I think it is in footnote 4 that you refer again to the

21     book published by Nikica Baric in relation to the seats that were won by

22     the SDS.

23             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Now if we can perhaps display 65 ter 2578.  That

24     is at tab 314.  And in the English version I think there are two files.

25     We should display the one that has the ERN 06247029.  This is a summary,

Page 2421

 1     an English summary which is part of the book.  Yes, thank you.

 2             Now, in the English summary if we go to page 2, please.  Yes.  I

 3     think it is towards the bottom of the page that Nikica Baric explains

 4     that some of the actions of the new Croatian government could not find

 5     the support of ethnic Serbs and this is following the -- the elections.

 6        Q.   Could you explain to us what he is referring to here?

 7        A.   Well, as I state in paragraph 5, the first multi-party elections

 8     that were held in Croatia in 1990 led to the victory of nationalist

 9     parties, in particular the quite nationalist Croat Democratic Union or

10     HDZ which obtained the largest percentage of votes and on the other hand,

11     the Serb Democratic Party, the SDS, a nationalist party representing the

12     Serbs in Croatia also received a substantial portion of the vote of Serbs

13     residing in Croatia.  Both of these parties portrayed themselves

14     primarily as political organisations that would defend Croat interests in

15     the case of the HDZ and Serb interests in the case of the SDS, and as

16     such they were diametrically opposed and both parties spent a

17     considerable amount of political energy on convincing their respective

18     ethnic populations that -- that they could only find protection and

19     security, political, financial, and economic security if they were

20     gathered on a national basis.

21             In the case of the HDZ, the party and in particular its leader,

22     Franjo Tudjman, on repeated occasions engaged in displays of nationalist

23     symbols, many of which harked back to the so-called

24     Independent State of Croatia, a fascist state that existed from 1941 to

25     1945, and it was such displays, such rhetoric, among other things, that

Page 2422

 1     also led, as Nikica Baric says, ethnic Serbs to severely doubt whether

 2     they would have a future in a Croatia, in particular in a Croatia that

 3     might be moving towards independence.

 4        Q.   Now, the very next sentence after the following the one that I

 5     quoted earlier says that:

 6             "Nevertheless, Serbs used every possibility to show that Croats

 7     are endangering them and used this as a pretext for their own aggressive

 8     actions."

 9             What can you say about this?

10        A.   What I can say is that it is my observation of Serb politics in

11     Croatia during this period that they reacted very negatively to the

12     overwhelming victory of the HDZ and the election of Franjo Tudjman as

13     president of Croatia, and as I state in paragraph 6, the anxiety created

14     among the Serb minority in Croatia by this victory was frequently very

15     quickly and later consistently linked to past memories -- excuse me,

16     memories of past oppression of Serbs in Croatia.  This -- this anxiety

17     and fear was to a considerable extent manipulated by Serb politicians in

18     Croatia, again as a way of mobilising the Serb ethnic populous in Croatia

19     around the Serb Democratic Party which increasingly portrayed itself as

20     the sole legitimate political representative of Serbs in Croatia.

21        Q.   Now, on the basis of documents and books that you have read, what

22     to your knowledge was the position of Serbs in relation to an independent

23     Croatia?

24        A.   It is the case that the only previous independent Croatian state

25     that had existed in living memory, if we look at it from the perspective

Page 2423

 1     of 1991, was the aforementioned fascist Independent State of Croatia.

 2     For that very reason and because of the genocidal politics that the

 3     Independent State of Croatia had pursued against the Serb population of

 4     Croatia, the very notion of an independent Croatian state was even under

 5     the best of circumstances likely to create enormous anxiety among at

 6     least a substantial portion of the Serb population in Croatia.

 7             As I stated, the inflammable political rhetoric of

 8     Franjo Tudjman, who had also as an historian dabbled in revisionism and

 9     at times denied the suffering of Serbs in Croatia or at least minimised

10     the suffering of Serbs in Croatia during World War II contributed to the

11     creation of an atmosphere of extreme anxiety among many Serbs in Croatia.

12        Q.   And was there a -- you said this rhetoric created an anxiety

13     among at least a substantial portion of the Serb population.  Was there a

14     portion of the Serb population in Croatia which looked favourably toward

15     an independent Croatia?

16        A.   It is difficult to state whether there was any portion of the

17     Serb population that really looked favourably towards an independent

18     Croatia.  However, it can probably be stated that among a certain section

19     of Serbs, particularly those living in the larger cities of Croatia, they

20     might possibly have been willing to support more autonomy if not

21     independence for Croatia had the HDZ gone about propagating this policy

22     in a more conciliatory manner.  Again, that is, unfortunately, I have to

23     say speculation, because the HDZ did anything but that.

24        Q.   Very well.  If we move to paragraph 6, you explain here how Serb

25     politicians in Croatia cultivated a fear amongst the Serb minority, that

Page 2424

 1     Serbs would be subjected to discrimination, linking this fear to genocide

 2     that occurred during the Second World War.  Could you tell the Court what

 3     is the position amongst academic circles in relation to the assertion

 4     that genocide was committed against Serbs during the Second World War?

 5        A.   I believe that it is an accurate reflection of the consensus in

 6     scholarly circles to state as I do in paragraph 6 of my report that the

 7     fascist independent State of Croatia implemented extremely discriminatory

 8     policies against Serbs and other minorities, in particular Jews and Roma,

 9     in Croatia, culminating in a genocide against the Serbs and these other

10     minorities on the territory of the NDH which we should remember not only

11     incorporated or included the territory of present-day Croatia but also

12     Bosnia-Herzegovina and a substantial portion of Serbia.

13             The policies of the NDH state varied at times in intensity and in

14     particular certain very negative policies pursued by that state such as

15     forced conversions of Serb Orthodox believers to Roman Catholicism varied

16     over time.  However, I believe it is an accurate reflection of the state

17     of scholarly knowledge to state that the NDH's policies were absolutely

18     toxic and negative and in some genocidal particularly as concerned the

19     Serb, Roma, and Jewish populations of that state.

20        Q.   In that paragraph, I think it is at footnote 6 where you referred

21     to a statement made by Milan Martic in an interview in 1994.  Perhaps we

22     can display.  It's 65 ter 4981, and that is at tab 315.

23             In the footnote you indicate that Milan Martic stated, or

24     referred to a clear indication of the restoration of Nazism from the

25     period 1941 to 1945.  And again returning to your comment in paragraph 6

Page 2425

 1     of how Serb politicians used this -- the events the Second World War,

 2     what can you make of this statement?

 3        A.   The statement made by Milan Martic is an accurate reflection of

 4     the political rhetoric of Serb leaders in Croatia in the period from the

 5     time of the multi-party elections in Croatia and then forward until 1995

 6     in which he and others choose to characterise the newly created -- or

 7     the -- excuse me, first the movement to create an Independent State of

 8     Croatia and after 1991 the newly Independent State of Croatia as the

 9     second coming of the fascist Independent State of Croatia from the

10     Second World War.

11             As I state in paragraph 6, a logical and again unfortunate

12     corollary to this was a choose by many Serb political leaders and some

13     Serbs in the general population of Croatia to refer generically to Croats

14     as the -- as Ustasha, that is the fascist movement that led the

15     Independent State of Croatia to refer to the organs of the Croatian state

16     in Zagreb as Ustasha or NDH organs and again after 1991 to refer to the

17     newly Independent State of Croatia as the NDH.

18             I should note as I do in paragraph 6 that this type of

19     association, discursive association between the Croatian independence

20     movement and the Croatian independent state in the 1990s on the one hand

21     and the fascist Croatian state of the 1940s on the other hand was

22     mirrored on the Croat side by an equally unfortunate tendency by many

23     Croatian media and Croat politicians to refer to Serbs generically as

24     Chetniks, that is, as extreme nationalist Serbs, Chetniks being the

25     royalist nationalist movement that existed during World War II.

Page 2426

 1        Q.   Thank you.  Moving on to paragraph 7, Dr. Nielsen, you explain

 2     here how in June and July of 1990 the Croatian Serbs begin to contemplate

 3     the establishment of self-rule and declare autonomy of the Serb Nation.

 4             Now, this took place it would be approximately half a year before

 5     the adoption of the new constitution in Croatia; is that right?

 6        A.   I'm sorry, did you say approximately half a year before or after

 7     a year --

 8        Q.   Half a year before.

 9        A.   Yes, that is correct.

10        Q.   And just to be clear, when was the new Croatian constitution

11     adopt?

12        A.   It was promulgated on the 22nd of December, 1990.

13        Q.   Now, it appears though that at this time some constitutional

14     changes were already proposed by the summer of 1990.  Perhaps if we could

15     look at tab 8.  That's 65 ter 50, 5-0.  Again, this is a document which

16     is in your report.  It is a press report from Tanjug, from the

17     31st of July, 1990.  And it states here that in line with the decision by

18     the recent gathering a Serb referendum would be held.  Towards the end of

19     this article the paragraph before the last one, it reads here:

20             "At today's session the Serbian National Council rejected all

21     amendments to the constitution of the Croat republic adopted by the Croat

22     Assembly.  The council also rejects the use of Croat national symbols,

23     especially the coat of arms," et cetera.

24             Although the constitution was adopted in December of 1990, it

25     appears that already in the summer of 1990 some constitutional changes

Page 2427

 1     were already in the works.  Now, generally what was the position of the

 2     Serb politicians in relation to these constitutional changes?

 3        A.   The position of the Serb Democratic Party was certainly negative

 4     as regarded the proposed changes which would lead or pave a path towards

 5     Croatian independence and towards any constitutional changes which might

 6     certainly in the eyes of the Serbs lead to a diminishing or erasure of

 7     their status as a constituent nation of Croatia as they -- a

 8     constitutional status that they had enjoyed until 1990.  So in this case,

 9     what we see is that the drafting of the new constitution is obviously a

10     longer procedure which is discussed in the Sabor or parliament in Croatia

11     and that the Serbs are already at this stage expressing quite serious

12     concerns about where this is all headed.

13        Q.   Now, at paragraph 7 you explain that a referendum was held in

14     relation to Serbian autonomy, and you cite the report of the central

15     commission which was overseeing the vote.  This is at 65 ter 59, at

16     tab 12.  We can display that for a moment.  Yes.

17             Now, could you -- could you tell us how you view the result here

18     whereby 567.127 persons voted for Serbian autonomy versus 144 who voted

19     against?  How do you review this result?

20        A.   Well, what we see in this period both in Croatia and in

21     Bosnia-Herzegovina are moves by ethnic Serb political parties, in both

22     cases in Croatia and Bosnia-Herzegovina called the Serb Democratic Party,

23     to stake out their political positions which were against increased

24     autonomy or independence for Croatia and Bosnia and Herzegovina.  One of

25     the ways in which these parties mobilised political support and

Page 2428

 1     publicised their opposition to moves towards Croatian or Bosnian

 2     independence was by holding such referenda.  This referendum for example

 3     in Croatia is pretty much a self-selective referendum.  Anyone who is

 4     likely to participate in this referendum organised by the Serbs in

 5     Croatia is likely to vote yes.  Anyone who opposes it is not likely to

 6     participate in the referendum.  And it is also for this reason that as I

 7     state in paragraph 8 the authorities in -- of the republic of Croatia

 8     regarded this referendum as informal and also illegal and attempted to

 9     stop it.

10        Q.   If we return to page 1 in the English version, under item 2 we

11     see the municipalities which towards the bottom of the page, if we could

12     zoom in on the -- yeah.  Thank you.  We can see the municipalities where

13     the vote was held.  We see Knin, Benkovac, et cetera, and in the fourth

14     line we can see that some municipalities in Eastern Slavonia and Baranja,

15     namely Beli Manastir and Vukovar, also participated in this -- this

16     referendum.

17             I'm mentioning this because I'd like to tie this to the next

18     document, which is P62.50.  This is at tab 334.  It's a report from a

19     police station.  This is a document, actually, that is not in your

20     report, but I believe you've had a chance to look at it?

21             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Can we display it on the screen, please.  Right.

22        Q.   Now, we can see on the top left-hand corner Djakovo public

23     security station.  I don't know -- I haven't asked you this before, but

24     do you know where Djakovo is exactly?

25        A.   Yes, I do.  Djakovo is located in Slavonia.

Page 2429

 1        Q.   Very well.  And it appears here that if we look at this report,

 2     that the Croatian police did try to interfere, as it is indicated in your

 3     report, during this referendum.  You were mentioning just a few moments

 4     ago that this was a self-selective report -- referendum.  Can you gather

 5     anything from this police report in relation to that?

 6        A.   Well, I would first remark that in the previous document we saw

 7     the list of municipalities.  They're -- and in some cases portions of

 8     municipalities conforms to those areas in which there were substantial if

 9     not majority Serb populations.  So that again shows that this was not a

10     country-wide referendum but, rather, a referendum that was conducted

11     first and foremost in areas where the Serb population in Croatia was

12     concentrated.

13             Looking at the document in front of us, we see that there are

14     individuals who have been using their own vehicles and essentially

15     volunteering in order to organise informally this referendum where they

16     go around to villages in various municipalities and sit down with

17     persons, Serbs whom they regard as being favourably predisposed towards

18     organising this and holding this referendum.  These persons were then

19     charged with identifying other Serbs in their municipalities and

20     villages, et cetera, and mobilising them to vote in this referendum so

21     that the result could be as considerable as possible.

22             I would note that both in this document and the document I refer

23     to in paragraph 8, the hostility of the authorities of the Republic of

24     Croatia and in particular the deployment of Croatian police to try to

25     confiscate ballots or in other ways obstruct the referendum in some ways

Page 2430

 1     seems to have functioned as confirmation in the minds of some Serbs that

 2     the Croatian police was indeed aiming to act in ways that were against

 3     the interests of Serbs in Croatia.

 4        Q.   And we see at the third -- in the third paragraph here the very

 5     last sentence when they're discussing Veljko Brkovic's activities, the

 6     last sentence reads:

 7             "For this purpose he planned to visit Serbian majority villages."

 8             Does that match with your understanding of how the referendum was

 9     held?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   Very well.  Now, if we move to -- if we skip to paragraph 14 of

12     your report, you explain that various developments took place during the

13     spring of 1991, including a referendum which was held by Croatian Serbs

14     on the 12th of May.  This is at 65 ter 150, which is tab 48 in the list.

15     If we could display this -- this document, please.

16             And I think it is correct to say that during this referendum,

17     again a very large majority of the people were leaving - and in this case

18     this is in the SAO Krajina - voted in favour of remaining in Yugoslavia.

19             Now, before we get into the document itself, is it correct to say

20     that during the same month the government of Croatia held its own

21     referendum on independence?

22        A.   Yes, I believe so.

23        Q.   All right.  And that Croatia declared its independence a month

24     later, on the 25th of June; is that right?

25        A.   Yes, that is correct.

Page 2431

 1        Q.   Okay.  And looking at this document, could you again comment on

 2     the municipalities which -- where this referendum was held.

 3        A.   Well, the municipalities we see on the list here are the

 4     municipalities in what is known as -- as the Krajina region of Croatia,

 5     which is a historical region that had existed for several centuries and

 6     in which, therefore, a number of again historical reasons was a very,

 7     very significant Serb population and indeed a majority Serb population.

 8     So it is these municipalities and this region known as the Krajina that

 9     becomes the driving force in the organisation of the Serbs in Croatia.

10             It should be pointed out as a point of general interest that a

11     very large number of Serbs in Croatia were sighted in major cities such

12     as Zagreb, Karlovac, Osijek, Split, and so on, and that in many cases

13     these Serbs numerically constituted larger groups than the sum population

14     of the sparsely populated Krajina municipalities, but it was these rural

15     municipalities where the Serbs constituted a solid majority that, as I

16     said, were the driving force in the organisation of the Serbs.

17        Q.   Well, in relation to that, under number 10 we see Knin.  Could

18     you perhaps describe to the Trial Chamber how important of a city Knin

19     was before the beginning of the conflict.

20        A.   Knin is a city that is located in a rural part of the

21     Dalmatian Krajina, and I think could safely -- it could safely be said

22     that Knin in no way prior to 1991 was a place that figured prominently in

23     the popular mind of residents of the Republic of Croatia.  It is a much

24     smaller town than the primary urban settlements in Croatia and in the

25     context of policing was subordinate to the more significant population

Page 2432

 1     centre of Sibenik.

 2        Q.   All right.  And before we break, I would like to ask you a

 3     question relating to paragraphs 15, 16, and 17, because here we see you

 4     mentioning Milan Martic, who was at the time secretary of the

 5     SAO Krajina SUP.  Paragraph 16, we see that he's appointed as the

 6     minister of defence of the SAO Krajina.  This is on 29th of May, 1991.

 7     And if we flip to paragraph 17, and this is about a month later, he's

 8     also -- here it says re-appointed as minister of internal affairs of the

 9     SAO Krajina.

10             Could you explain perhaps to the Trial Chamber this accumulation

11     of titles?

12        A.   It's difficult for me to explain the accumulation of titles other

13     than to state that it is clear that Milan Martic in -- who was one of the

14     most prominent police officers in Knin, again was perhaps the actor who

15     played the leading role in organising the police structures in Krajina.

16     This -- perhaps we could explain the conglomeration or accumulation of

17     titles by noting that Martic and other members of the police in Knin and

18     in the SAO Krajina regarded the police as the most proximate reliable and

19     useful line of defence against possible movements to put down attempts at

20     establishing Serbian autonomy in the Krajina, and in that sense it

21     follows logically that the police not only would be a force for internal

22     affairs as it has traditionally been in socialist Yugoslavia, but also a

23     force that could be part of a nascent defence effort and hence the title

24     of minister of defence.

25        Q.   Thank you, Dr. Nielsen.

Page 2433

 1             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Your Honours, I will be moving to a new chapter,

 2     so this may be an appropriate time to break.

 3             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you, Mr. Demirdjian.

 4             Dr. Nielsen, this is the time for our first break.  We'll come

 5     back at 11.00.  You will be escorted out of the courtroom.  Thank you.

 6                           [The witness stands down]

 7             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Court adjourned.

 8                           --- Recess taken at 10.27 a.m.

 9                           --- On resuming at 11.01 a.m.

10                           [The witness takes the stand]

11             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Demirdjian.

12             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Thank you, Your Honours.

13        Q.   Dr. Nielsen, I would like to turn to section B of your report

14     dealing with the establishment of the SAO SBWS.  You indicate at

15     paragraph 18 that a referendum was held on autonomy for Serbs in August

16     and September 1990, and then at paragraph 19, you deal with the creation

17     of the Serb National Council in the SAO SBWS.

18             Now, at paragraph 20, you describe the content of the declaration

19     of sovereign autonomy of the Serb Nation and the SBWS.  This is P81.50 at

20     tab 143.  Can we perhaps display this.  P81.50.  Yes, thank you.

21             Now, we see the declaration on sovereign autonomy of the Serb

22     people of Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem.  Could we go to the next

23     page in the English versions and take a look at the items 7 and 8,

24     please.

25             Right.  Here we see that the establishment -- this discusses the

Page 2434

 1     duties of the Serb National Council, and I would like you to comment,

 2     Dr. Nielsen, on what the nature of this -- was the nature of this body,

 3     the Serb National Council.  How are we supposed to view it in the context

 4     of the events in early 1991?

 5        A.   Well, what we see here is a process that first started in the

 6     area called the SAO Krajina and which was later emulated in the area of

 7     Slavonia, Baranja and Western Srem and also separately in the area of

 8     Western Slavonia in which the Serb people led by -- primarily by the

 9     Serb Democratic Party mobilised in response to what they viewed as

10     Croatia's and Croat politicians' drive towards increasing autonomy and

11     independence for Croatia.

12             What this results in can most neatly be summarised under the

13     saying:  Why should we end up being a minority in your country if you can

14     potentially end up being a minority in our country?  That is to say the

15     Serb politicians as we saw already with the referendum are identifying

16     those portions of Croatia in which the Serbs constitute a demographic

17     majority.  They are proclaiming autonomous districts in those areas and

18     establishing of their own volition institutions such as the

19     Serb National Council here in January 1991 which they view as the sole

20     legitimate political representatives of the Serbs in those areas of

21     Croatia.

22             Legally speaking, with a happens during this period is that the

23     Serbs go from, as we see in the document before us, stating that they

24     will disregard any legislation coming from Zagreb that conflicts with the

25     constitution of Yugoslavia or in any way negatively affects the interests

Page 2435

 1     of Serbs in Croatia to a later phase in which they again reassert the

 2     primacy of federal Yugoslav legislation until they finally after the

 3     independence of Croatia state that they regard all legislation stemming

 4     from Croatia and all regulations as null and void.

 5             So this is an attempt at politically, legally and ultimately also

 6     militarily and in a police sense organising the Serbs to defend their

 7     interests against what they see as this hostile emerging independence

 8     Croatian state.

 9        Q.   Well, in terms of the territory where this autonomy was to be

10     exercised, I think under item 9 we could see that this decision indicates

11     or this declaration indicates that the autonomy was to be, how would I

12     say, exercised over a territory where Serbs have majority now and where

13     they had majority on April the 6th, 1941.  Could you explain to the Court

14     what is the significance of this date?

15        A.   Well, in April 1941, Nazi Germany, together with several of its

16     allies in the axis forces, commenced an armed attack against the then

17     Kingdom of Yugoslavia, and in the course of this attack, Yugoslavia

18     quickly capitulated and the aforementioned Independent State of Croatia

19     was established.

20             As I also mentioned as a matter of historical consensus it can be

21     said that the Independent State of Croatia implemented a genocidal policy

22     against the Serbs which had very detrimental effects for the Serb

23     population of Croatia.  So what we see here, and I mention this in

24     paragraph 20 of my report, is an assertion by Serb politicians in Croatia

25     that they not only wish to provide autonomy and ethnically based

Page 2436

 1     political representation for Serbs where they are currently a majority

 2     but also in a way as they see it rectify the historical injustice of the

 3     genocide and therefore incorporate areas where Serbs were already -- were

 4     a majority in 1941, that is, before the establishment of the

 5     Independent State of Croatia.

 6        Q.   Very well.  I would like to display a video which you refer to in

 7     your report.  This is 65 ter 4804, and I'd like to play the first clip

 8     which starts from the beginning of the video and ends at about the

 9     1-minute mark.  We can play it now.

10                           [Video-clip played]

11             THE INTERPRETER:  "[Voiceover] A member of the National Council,

12     Ilija Koncarevic, the General-Secretary, Pero Matic, professor from

13     Beli Manastir, Slavko Dokmanovic, resident of the municipality of

14     Vukovar, Goran Hadzic, the president of the Municipal Board of the

15     Serbian Democratic Party of Vukovar, and a member of the Main Board of

16     the SDB of Knin and Caslav Ocic from Dalj.  The Serbian National Council

17     for Slavonia, Baranja and Western Srem was set up this year in

18     Sidski Banovci, on Orthodox Christmas.  Only the name of the

19     General-Secretary Ilija Koncarevic was known and tonight we identify

20     another member, that's Ilija Petrovic.  Mr. Petrovic, tell us, is it --"

21             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Thank you.

22        Q.   Dr. Nielsen, first of all, have you seen this footage before?

23        A.   Yes, this is one of the videos that I reviewed in the course of

24     preparing my report.

25        Q.   And having reviewed this video before, could you tell the

Page 2437

 1     Court -- the names were mentioned, but could you tell the Court who we

 2     have seen, who were introduced in this -- in this show?

 3        A.   Well, we have a number of people here, Pero Martic, Slavko

 4     Dokmanovic, Goran Hadzic, Caslav Ocic.  These, as the speaker says -- and

 5     Ilija Petrovic is there as well who is the author of the book which I

 6     avail myself in -- in footnote 45 where this video is also cited.  These

 7     are the principal actors at least those who were public -- ready to

 8     appear in public at this time who were involved in establishing the

 9     Serb National Council of Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem.

10     Mr. Petrovic makes mention in his book of the fact that a considerable

11     portion of the initial political organisation was done covertly and

12     therefore not everyone involved in this process was ready to appear

13     publicly in a television appearance such as this at this time.

14        Q.   Okay.  And can we play the second clip, which starts at the

15     51 minutes mark, 51.53.

16                           [Video-clip played]

17             THE INTERPRETER:  "[Voiceover] Anchor:  By bringing this show to

18     an end, let's ask Mr. Koncarevic, the Secretary-General of the

19     Serbian National Council for Baranja and Western Srem, what is your view

20     of a solution for Serbia?

21              "Mr. Koncarevic:  I'm somehow limited by the views of the

22     Serbian National Council in this evening's broadcast.  We have today

23     adopted a position as regards the solution to this problem that we shall

24     forward to the Presidency.  There is disputable and indisputable

25     territories in Croatia.  The indisputable territory is the territory

Page 2438

 1     where Croats were ethnic majority before the beginning of the

 2     World War I.  Indisputable, that is disputable territory, is the one in

 3     Krajina and Western Srem, Baranja, Slavonia and Moslovina.  We propose

 4     that Yugoslav Presidency suspend the authority of the Croatian Sabor and

 5     Croatian leadership in all territories where Serbian people live.  This

 6     because elementary human rights of Serbian people have been jeopardised

 7     and one has elementary right to live.  This right has been threatened.

 8     Furthermore --"

 9             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:

10        Q.   Thank you.  Now, here Ilija Koncarevic discusses disputable and

11     undisputable territory in Croatia.  Can you comment on that, again tying

12     into the document we just saw before?

13        A.   This is a statement which reflects the general sentiment among

14     the politicians who -- and others who were involved in creating the Serb

15     National Council of Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem and, in fact,

16     also reflects the thinking of those involved in creating the other SAOs

17     that were emerging in Croatia at the time, that there were historical

18     areas that were so to say undisputably Serb and that those areas needed

19     to be included in any political reorganisation of Croatia under Serb or

20     Yugoslav control.  And again we see the notion that these territories are

21     defined in, if you will, a historical way that is not just based on

22     contemporaneous demographical data but also based on the Serbs'

23     understanding of areas in which they had, historically speaking,

24     particularly before World War II and in some cases before World War I,

25     constituting -- constituted a majority.

Page 2439

 1        Q.   Now, we see Ilija Koncarevic here, and earlier we also saw

 2     Ilija Petrovic.  You mention them in your report.  Could you tell the

 3     Court what was their role from the documents that you have seen during

 4     1991?

 5        A.   Well, these two gentlemen were among the most prominent actors in

 6     organising the Serbs politically in the area of Slavonia, Baranja, and

 7     Western Srem, and they became part of the Serb National Council and were

 8     prominently involved in drafting its policies, and as I noted, that is

 9     one of the reasons why I rely in no small -- to no small extent on, in

10     particular, the member -- the memoirs of Ilija Petrovic, who was a member

11     of the Executive Council and whose account is generally corroborated by

12     documents such as the Gazetted declaration that we saw earlier.

13        Q.   Now, at paragraph 21, you describe how Goran Hadzic was appointed

14     as president of the Serb National Council on the 17th of March, 1991.

15     And then at paragraph 22, you explained the decision whereby the SBWS

16     joined the Vojvodina on the 31st of March, 1991.  And just to clarify

17     this for the Judges, where is Vojvodina located exactly?

18        A.   First, I would just like to state as pertains to paragraph 21 and

19     the appointment of Mr. Hadzic as president of the Serb National Council,

20     it should be noted that Mr. Petrovic in his account states that it took

21     quite some time and effort on his part and on the part of other Serbs in

22     the area of Eastern Slavonia to persuade in Hadzic to take an active

23     political role.  So that, I think, is relevant for the Court to know.

24             As regards Vojvodina, Vojvodina is an autonomous area -- or

25     autonomous region within the Republic of Serbia, roughly speaking the

Page 2440

 1     area north of the Danube, and it is the area that is contiguous with

 2     Eastern Slavonia.  This is one -- if -- and perhaps the first effort in

 3     the declarations of the politicians, the Serb politicians in

 4     Eastern Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem to amalgamate themselves with

 5     the -- either the Republic of Serbia or in this case the autonomous

 6     region of Vojvodina.  Again this is an expression that if the Croats were

 7     to move towards a succession from -- of a secession, I should say, from

 8     the Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, then the Serbs would wish

 9     to find some way to remain within Yugoslavia, and one of the ways to do

10     this was to amalgamate with Vojvodina.

11        Q.   Very well.  In relation to that, I think at paragraph 23 you

12     refer to a letter which was sent by the Serb National Council to the SFRY

13     Presidency about the deterioration of the situation, and I think it is

14     Petrovic who signs this document where he writes that all Croatian police

15     stations have drawn up lists of Serbs who were to be arrested or killed.

16     This is again at paragraph 23 of your report.

17             How would you qualify this statement?

18        A.   I would qualify this as a statement that is indicative of the

19     perceptions, some would argue misperceptions, of the Serbs in terms of

20     what they could expect from the police in Croatia, that is, the police

21     controlled by the Ministry of Internal Affairs of the Republic of

22     Croatia.  There were a number of important symbolic and other changes of

23     nomenclature undergoing in the police of Croatia at this time.  For

24     example, the shift from the word "milicija," which had been used in

25     socialist Yugoslavia to characterize the uniformed police to "policija."

Page 2441

 1     Also the use of certain other Croatian words which led Petrovic and

 2     others to the conclusion that what they were witnessing was the

 3     re-establishment of an ethnic Croatian police force that potentially

 4     would resurrect the very negative and persecutory policies of the

 5     Independent State of Croatia during the Second World War.  So when

 6     Petrovic as a responsible and leading politician in the area expresses

 7     this, this is something that people would listen to and which would

 8     contribute to the increase in anxiety and insecurity that was informing

 9     the area and the population at that time.

10        Q.   Very well.  Now, just in passing, at paragraph 25 you describe

11     there the events on the 25th of June which we've heard plenty of evidence

12     about before this Court.

13             I would like to skip to paragraph 32 of your report whereby you

14     state here that on the 23rd of August, the Serb National Council

15     proclaimed a general mobilisation in SBWS, and perhaps if we could

16     display 65 ter 01939, and that is the -- at tab 292.  That is the book by

17     Ilija Petrovic.

18             And if we could go in the B/C/S version to the page 360.  Thank

19     you.  I believe we have an English translation.  Maybe it's there as a

20     separate file.

21             While the English version is being pulled up, Dr. Nielsen, can

22     you tell us in the B/C/S whether this is the right -- the correct page in

23     relation to the general mobilisation?

24        A.   Yes, it is.

25        Q.   Very well.  I'm not entirely sure this is the right page in the

Page 2442

 1     English version.

 2             MR. GOSNELL:  If I may assist, it should be somewhere after

 3     page 23 of the English translation.  I don't have an exact reference, but

 4     it should be --

 5             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Thank you.

 6             MR. GOSNELL:  -- in that range.

 7             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  If we can go to the next page.  I apologise for

 8     that, Your Honours.  I believe there is a separate translation.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  Just for the record, there are two English

10     translations attached to this document.  Thank you.

11                           [Prosecution counsel and Case Manager confer]

12             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Can we go to the other English file, please.

13     Okay.  We will return to this once we have located the correct page.  I

14     apologise for this.

15        Q.   Dr. Nielsen, we will come back to this paragraph, but for now I'd

16     like to take you to paragraph 37.

17             Now, in the preceding paragraphs, 35, 36, we start seeing a

18     certain amount of legislative activity in the SAO SBWS, and we see the

19     appointment of several members of the government, and on the 9th of

20     October, we see a law on the government is adopted.

21             Now, you indicate at paragraph 37 that as -- as of that moment,

22     the government replaced the Serb National Council.

23             Just to clarify this, was the government -- was there any

24     governmental activity prior to the 9th of October, 1991?

25        A.   Yes, there was.  As I indicate in the preceding chapter -- excuse

Page 2443

 1     me, paragraphs, there were a number of things going on.  For example, in

 2     paragraph 36, the establishment of staffs and units of civil protection

 3     by the government of the Serb district of Slavonia, Baranja, and

 4     Western Srem.  I have to state as a point of information to the Chamber

 5     that it is my experience as an analyst that both in the SAO Krajina and

 6     also in the SAO of Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem there was a great

 7     deal of inconsistency in the terminology used during this period in terms

 8     of whether one or another thing was being done by, for example, the

 9     Great National Assembly, the government, or the Serb National Council,

10     and that sometimes creates a bit of confusion in trying to figure out

11     exactly which body was doing what, but according to Ilija Petrovic, as of

12     the 9th of October, the government replaced the Serb National Council.

13        Q.   Now, in the next paragraph you mention that a decision was

14     adopted to -- by the Great National Assembly to formally merge the

15     Territorial Defence of the SBWS with the armed forces of the SFRY.  Could

16     you tell us based on the documents you have seen what was the JNA's

17     perception of the emerging government in the SAO SBWS?

18        A.   This is an excellent question and it is in many ways contingent

19     in the sense that it depends on which JNA officers one looks to in terms

20     of their own documents on the SAOs during this period.  It can be

21     generally said that the JNA's policy during this period is evolving in a

22     way that they regard the attempts of the Serbs to -- of Croatia to

23     organise themselves and to protect themselves against a Croatian polity

24     that is moving towards independence as a legitimate process and therefore

25     are willing to extend logistical and other assistance to the Serbs of

Page 2444

 1     Croatia in their organisation and their self-defence.  Again, this is

 2     because the JNA has -- the Yugoslav People's Army was obviously

 3     doctrinally and legally obliged to protect the territorial integrity of

 4     Yugoslavia, and henceforth -- or, hence, many in the JNA, if not most at

 5     this time, particularly officers from Serbia and Montenegro, and Serbs,

 6     officers from other parts of Yugoslavia, viewed Croatia and Slovenia's

 7     move toward independence as an illegal or hostile act.

 8             It should also be noted, however, that in a number of

 9     contemporaneous JNA documents, JNA officers, including officers of the

10     security organs of the JNA refer to the Serb autonomous districts that

11     are being established in Croatia as self-proclaimed and sometimes list

12     the names of these districts in quotation marks, thereby indicating at

13     the very least a skepticism as regards their legal legitimacy.

14             Over time the JNA particularly after the declaration of

15     independence of Croatia in June 1991 tends to regard the SAOs in a much

16     more favourable way and lend much more overt assistance to them.

17      *  Q.   On that topic, could I ask that we display 65 ter 6022 at

18     tab 337.  This, Your Honour, is a document that is not in Dr. Nielsen's

19     report.  It is part of the collection which was obtained after the

20     preparation of his report.

21             And, Dr. Nielsen, this is a document from the command of the

22     12th Corps on the 8th of November, 1991, from the village of Dalj.  Do

23     you remember having reviewed this document before?

24        A.   Yes, I do.

25        Q.   Very well.  It does deal a bit with the police, and we will deal

Page 2445

 1    * with the police in a moment, but I would like you to look at the first

 2     dash, if that were to -- yeah.  Perhaps the fourth paragraph in the B/C/S

 3     version.  And you can see here that the 12th Corps in fact is sending

 4     this to the 1st Military District, which is its higher command and is

 5     requesting some clarification.  Can you comment on that -- on that first

 6     sentence here in this first dash.

 7        A.   Yes.  This is a military document from this period in the autumn

 8     of 1991 where we see that a portion of the military is -- of the JNA is

 9     clearly still struggling to come to terms with what the exact legal

10     status or authorities of the Assembly of the Serb district of Slavonia,

11     Baranja, and Western Srem and the government of that district are.  That

12     is, as they say, have they established their legal legitimacy?  Are they

13     international recognised?  And obviously what they're trying to find out

14     from the military perspective is to what extent are they to co-operate

15     with the government of that district, to what extent are they even

16     supposed to adhere to orders, laws, instructions or regulations

17     promulgated by those organs.  So this is an illustration, if you will,

18     even after the independence of Croatia.  This is quite some time after

19     the independence of Croatia that the military is, at least parts of the

20     military, the JNA, is still not quite sure what the exact legal status is

21     of this -- of these SAOs.

22             I would point out as I hope a helpful reference to my previous

23     answer and this one that in paragraph 68 of my report, which deals with

24     the earlier March 1991 incidents at Plitvice, I also quote a document of

25     the JNA in which they refer and I quote, "to the so-called SAO Krajina."


Page 2446

 1    * Again, this is an indication where we can see the JNA struggling to come

 2     to terms with the status of these SAOs.

 3                           [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

 4             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Demirdjian.

 5             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Yes.

 6             JUDGE DELVOIE:  The Registrar shows me your -- I suppose this is

 7     part of your list of documents where it says that this document should be

 8     used in closed session.

 9             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Let me just double-check on this.

10                           [Prosecution counsel and Case Manager confer]

11             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Your Honours, we will verify the status.  We

12     believe that we had an answer from the relevant government indicating

13     that there were no objections in using these documents, but for the time

14     being perhaps to be safe I will use these documents in private session

15     until we have a definite answer.

16                           [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

17             JUDGE DELVOIE:  We will then for the time being also redact --

18             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Yes.

19             JUDGE DELVOIE:  -- the record on that part.

20             We go into private session for the moment.

21                           [Private session]

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 2447











11 Page 2447 redacted. Private session.















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19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22                           [Open session]

23             THE REGISTRAR:  We're back in open session, Your Honours.  Thank

24     you.

25             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Thank you.


Page 2449

 1        Q.   Dr. Nielsen moving on to paragraph 42 of your report, and as you

 2     said, this nascent government is establishing its authority, you quote

 3     the Great National Assembly's Law on the Temporary Territorial

 4     Organisation of the SAO SBWS.  This is Exhibit L42 - if we could display

 5     that on the screen - at tab 131.  This law was adopted on the

 6     22nd of November, 1991.  Now, if we could go to Article 11.  It should be

 7     at page 3.  Yes.

 8             Now, Dr. Nielsen, you can see here a description of the territory

 9     and the municipalities of the Serb region.  You can see a number of

10     villages here such as Bapska, Bogdanovci, Boksic, et cetera.  Now, from

11     the documents you have read and have seen, what would you say about the

12     ethnic composition of this region and the villages listed here?

13        A.   I'm not an expert on the demography of individual villages and

14     settlements in this region.  However, I can state that my understanding

15     is that Article 11 includes all those areas in the region of Slavonia,

16     Baranja, and Western Srem which conform to the expressed intent of the

17     members of the Serb National Council in the area to include in the Serb

18     district all those settlements that had a Serb majority as of the

19     6th of April, 1941.  In some cases, the reality -- the military reality

20     on the ground as of this date was such that not all of these settlements

21     conforming to those criteria could be included practically in the

22     temporary territorial organisation, and that is why as I note Osijek is

23     included, though with a temporary seat at Tenja as was Vinkovci with a

24     temporary seat at Mirkovci.

25             It should be noted also that just from the point of language,

Page 2450

 1     there is the interesting observation here that this document tends to be

 2     alphabetised, according to the latin alphabet although it's written in

 3     the Cyrillic alphabet which is one of many indications that at least some

 4     of the primary actors in Eastern Slavonia were still struggling to come

 5     to terms with their new found devotion for the Cyrillic alphabet.

 6        Q.   Perhaps we could take a quick look at the census book.  Can we

 7     pull up 65 ter 118, please.  And this is a document that is referred to

 8     in your report.  And we will be looking at -- just very quickly at the

 9     ethnic composition of these villages.

10             In the B/C/S version could we go to page 202, please.  Yes.  Can

11     we zoom on the bottom part, please.  Thank you.

12             Sorry, first of all let's go to the top to see the headers, and

13     we could see, Dr. Nielsen, that in row 3 we have numbers of Croatians,

14     the word Hrvati is indicated there, and in row 8 we have Serbs, Srbi.

15     And now if we could scroll down to the bottom of the page.  Now let's

16     take, for example, the -- under the municipality of Vukovar, the first

17     town, Bapska.  Do you see the numbers of Croats and Serbs there?

18        A.   If I have the columns correct, I believe there would be,

19     according to this census, 1.478 Croats and 33 Serbs in Bapska

20     municipality.

21        Q.   Now, I will not go through each of these villages because we

22     could see that some villages have a Serb majority such as Borovo and

23     Brsadin.  Other villages have a Croat majority.  I can think of Ilok and

24     other municipality -- villages we see here.  What is your comment on this

25     when we think of the last document we were looking at, the long temporary

Page 2451

 1     organisation of the territory?

 2        A.   I can only restate my conclusion that this is again an accurate

 3     reflection of the political aspirations of the Serb leadership of the

 4     Serb National Council of -- and later government of Slavonia, Baranja,

 5     and Western Srem to include not only those areas in which there was an

 6     actual Serb ethnic majority as of the 1991 census but also had

 7     historically been, particularly prior to April 1941, a Serb majority.  As

 8     such, although I do not have the 1941 -- or, rather, 1931, it would be,

 9     census figures in front of me, it would not surprise me if they had been

10     to the archives and determined that, for example, Bapska had been a Serb

11     majority area prior to 1941.

12        Q.   Thank you.  Very well.

13             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Your Honours, I just received an answer from the

14     people in the background who have been very helpful.  We have received a

15     response from the relevant government and no protective measures are

16     necessary for the documents which were received last summer, part of this

17     collection of documents we received after the report was filed.  So the

18     document which was previously tendered under seal indeed can now be

19     marked as an exhibit not under seal.

20             JUDGE DELVOIE:  So ordered.  Thank you.

21             THE REGISTRAR:  For the record, Exhibit P365 becomes a public

22     exhibit.  Thank you.

23             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Thank you.

24        Q.   I would like to now move on to the subchapter D which deals with

25     the unification of the SAOs and the establishment of the RSK.  This is at

Page 2452

 1     paragraph 50 of your report, Dr. Nielsen.

 2             You indicated in paragraph 50 that on the 19th of December, the

 3     constitutional Assembly of the RSK promulgated a constitutional law

 4     enabling the passage of a new constitution of the RSK.  Just to clarify

 5     this here, at the beginning of the paragraph you do indicate that this is

 6     unification of the three SAOs; is that right?

 7        A.   Yes, that is correct.

 8        Q.   Now, in parallel to this, could you tell the Court where the --

 9     what -- what other developments were happening in the neighbouring

10     Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, thinking back to the date of the

11     19th of December, 1991?

12        A.   In Bosnia and Herzegovina during this period, there were also a

13     number of Serb autonomous districts that had been formed starting in

14     September 1991, again as an attempt by the Serbs of Bosnia, in that case

15     to ensure that they would not be subjected to rule by political entities

16     that were not under Serbian control and that they would be able to remain

17     within Yugoslavia in the case that Bosnia and Herzegovina moved towards

18     independence as Slovenia and Croatia had already done.  In December 1991,

19     around this time in Bosnia and Herzegovina, the SDS of Bosnia and

20     Herzegovina issued a set of instructions that became a blueprint for how,

21     as they called it, Serb power was to be established in those areas of

22     Bosnia and Herzegovina they regarded as historically Serbian.

23             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  In relation to this could we display 65 ter 811,

24     which is at tab 328, please.

25        Q.   Dr. Nielsen, are you able to -- yes, you can see both versions

Page 2453

 1     now.  Have you seen this -- sorry.  Have you seen this document before?

 2        A.   Yes, I have.

 3        Q.   Very well.  This is a letter from Momcilo Krajisnik on the

 4     19th of December, 1991.  Just very briefly could you tell the Court who

 5     Krajisnik was?

 6        A.   As is indicated in the document, Krajisnik was at that time the

 7     president of the Assembly of the Serb Nation in Bosnia and Herzegovina.

 8     He had also been the president of the Assembly of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

 9        Q.   This letter is also dated the 19th of December, 1991, and I

10     believe here Krajisnik is informing members of the SAO Krajina that he

11     will be unable to attend.  It appears he's been invited here.  Could you

12     tell us again from the totality of the documents you've viewed what was

13     the relationship between the member of the Bosnian Serb Assembly or

14     government and the members of the Croatian Serb entities?

15        A.   The relationship between the Bosnian Serb leadership and the

16     Croatian Serb leadership was quite consistently good and is quite

17     epiphanally expressed in this document where Mr. Krajisnik notes that all

18     Serbs are engaged in a struggle for the same goal under the same banner

19     and that we are all convinced of our final victory.

20             There were in the period from 1992 until the end of 1995 -- or I

21     should say until August 1995, a recurring number of occasions on which

22     the Bosnian Serb leadership and the Croatian Serb leadership entertained

23     the notion of joining together into one greater political entity, either

24     separate from the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia or together with the

25     Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.  However, any contemplated merger despite

Page 2454

 1     these discussions never came to fruition.

 2             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Your Honours, this document is not in

 3     Dr. Nielsen's report.  May I ask to -- for it to be admitted, please.

 4             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Admitted and marked.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  It shall be assigned Exhibit P366.  Thank you.

 6             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:

 7        Q.   You indicated to us, Dr. Nielsen, that this relationship or

 8     partnership lasted from the period of 1992 until 1995.  I would like to

 9     show you a video which is 65 ter 4826.1 at tab 393, please.

10             Sorry, before we play it for the interpreters, we can go to

11     page 8 of the English transcript in e-court.  All right.  You apparently

12     already have the right copy.  We can start from the beginning.

13                           [Video-clip played]

14             "Ms. Plavsic, you are part of a mixed delegation visiting

15     Bijeljina today to visit the alleged destruction which has been widely

16     reported by Sarajevo media.  What are your first impressions?

17             Biljana Plavsic:  As we have just passed through the city, my

18     escorts and I, we failed to notice any broken windows or shops or such

19     that had been reported by the media in Sarajevo.  We didn't see any of

20     that.  Somebody even made a remark about the shoe store, which would have

21     been the first to be robbed."

22             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:

23        Q.   Thank you.  I'm not necessarily interested in the substance of

24     what Mrs. Plavsic is saying here, but who can you identify on this

25     screen, Dr. Nielsen?

Page 2455

 1        A.   I can identify of course Biljana Plavsic who is being interviewed

 2     by the journalist.  On her -- well, let's say as we see it on the screen

 3     to the right of her on the screen is Zeljko Raznjatovic, also called

 4     Arkan, in a camouflage uniform, and on the other side of her in a suit is

 5     Mr. Goran Hadzic.

 6        Q.   Now, have you seen this footage before?

 7        A.   Yes, I have.

 8        Q.   And are you able to tell the Court around which time this was

 9     filmed?

10        A.   I recall that this is, I believe, from early April 1992, and if

11     memory serves, she's referring to her visit to Bijeljina where she and

12     Fikret Abdic and others went in response to reports of very violent

13     altercations between Muslims and Croats in that city.

14        Q.   And what can you make of the presence of Goran Hadzic and Arkan

15     during this interview?

16        A.   I don't have the transcript in front of me here but I believe I

17     actually said Muslims and Croats.  I meant Muslims and Serbs, of course.

18             Could you repeat the question, please.

19        Q.   Yes.  I was asking you what you could make of the presence of

20     Goran Hadzic and Arkan at this stage?

21             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Gosnell.

22             MR. GOSNELL:  Mr. President, I'm going to object to that

23     question.  There's no foundation at this point.  There is nothing in the

24     report that suggests that this expert has any expert opinion to offer on

25     the question.  So I am not exactly sure what my learned friend is driving


Page 2456

 1     at, but I object to such a question posed in that way.

 2             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Demirdjian.

 3             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Yes, Your Honours without necessarily getting

 4     too much into the details and not affect the witness there is an entire

 5     section relevant to this point at the end of the report from paragraphs

 6     201 until paragraph 211.  If we need to discuss this further, I would ask

 7     that Dr. Nielsen not be privy to this exchange.

 8             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Dr. Nielsen, could you leave the courtroom for a

 9     brief moment, please.

10             THE WITNESS:  Certainly, Your Honour.

11                           [The witness stands down]

12             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Demirdjian, we are discussing here the

13     presence of Mr. Hadzic and -- --

14             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Arkan.

15             JUDGE DELVOIE:  -- Arkan in Bijeljina in Bosnia-Herzegovina;

16     right?

17             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  In April 1992, yes.

18             JUDGE DELVOIE:  In April 1992.  That would be Republika Srpska

19     then.

20             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Yes.

21             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Okay.  And your question to the witness is what

22     would you make of their presence at that stage.

23             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Yes and I --

24             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Can you clarify?

25             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Yes.  Your Honours, this relates to the last

Page 2457

 1     section of the expert's report which deals with the relationship between

 2     the accused and Arkan.  That is the first topic, and we have a number of

 3     videos which we have shown also in the past showing them being together

 4     at various locations.  That is number one.  And Dr. Nielsen deals in the

 5     last chapter of his report about -- specifically about this relationship

 6     between Goran Hadzic and Arkan.  That's number one.

 7             And number two, it also deals with the co-operation that the

 8     Bosnian Serbs and the Croatian Serbs had which Dr. Nielsen just referred

 9     to and which he also refers to in his report.  So I think that the

10     question is legitimate.

11             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Gosnell, any further comment?

12             MR. GOSNELL:  Briefly.  There's no mention of this video in

13     Dr. Nielsen's report.  So it's not part of his opinion.  It's not part of

14     the foundation for the opinions that he gives in his report, and without

15     any adequate notice of what we're going at, what we're driving at, what

16     the Prosecution is trying to obtain here, I would suggest that it's

17     improper.

18                           [Trial Chamber confers]

19             JUDGE DELVOIE:  As we understand it, Mr. Gosnell, your problem is

20     a problem of notice.  So we'll give you until tomorrow and ask

21     Mr. Demirdjian to put this question to the witness tomorrow.

22             MR. GOSNELL:  Thank you, Mr. President.

23             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.  The witness may be -- the witness may

24     be brought in.

25             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Thank you, Your Honours.  At what time do we


Page 2458

 1     usually take the break, quarter past or --

 2             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Quarter past.

 3             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Yes.  Thank you.

 4                           [The witness takes the stand]

 5             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Okay.  While we're waiting for the witness, I

 6     would like to put on the record that the previous redacted -- the

 7     previous redacting order has been lifted.  It's about -- it's about the

 8     document we were not sure whether it should be under seal or not.  Thank

 9     you.

10             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Thank you, Your Honours.

11        Q.   Dr. Nielsen, as a result of a procedural exchange, I will

12     continue with this video tomorrow.  So for now we'll go -- put that

13     question on the ice until tomorrow.

14             I will move to paragraph 56 of your report where you indicate

15     that on the 25th or 26th of February, 1992, Milan Martic was elected as

16     minister of internal affairs in the RSK.  And following this you indicate

17     that RSK president, Goran Hadzic, awarded Martic of an extraordinary

18     promotion to the rank of general-colonel of the Serb army of the

19     Republika Srpska Krajina.

20             Now, from the documents that you have seen at this time, what was

21     the status of the Serb Army of Republika Srpska Krajina at that time in

22     July of 1992?

23        A.   Well, as I'm not an expert on military issues in the RSK, I'll

24     restrict my answer to the general observation that the Serb army of the

25     RSK emerged out of the Territorial Defence units that had been present or

Page 2459

 1     created by the Serbs in the areas they controlled in Croatia and

 2     supplemented with some portions of JNA units and that there were also --

 3     there was also a relationship between the police and these aforementioned

 4     units that was heavily affected by the dual heading of Milan Martic as

 5     both minister of internal affairs and minister of defence particularly

 6     after Vance Plan came into effect and where there was a transformation of

 7     military units into police units at least in part in attempt to

 8     circumvent the restrictions effected by the Vance Plan.

 9        Q.   Now in the relation to the promotion of Milan Martic on the

10     16th of July, 1992, is it correct that you have had the opportunity to

11     view a video where this was -- this promotion was celebrated?

12        A.   Yes, that is correct.

13             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  That is Exhibit P48, Your Honours.  I would like

14     to show the first minute or so.  If we can display it on Sanction,

15     please.

16                           [Video-clip played]

17             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Can we freeze here.

18        Q.   Do you recognise this person?

19        A.   Yes, that is Milan Martic.

20                           [Video-clip played]

21             THE INTERPRETER:  "[Voiceover] Milan Martic:  Before I say

22     anything, let us hold a minute of silence in honour of all our killed

23     soldiers, the Serbian heroes at this corridor and the soldier -- soldiers

24     at the Miljevacki plateau.  May they rest in peace.

25              "All:  May they rest in peace.

Page 2460

 1              "Milan Martic:  Dear fellow citizens, let me first thank you for

 2     your magnificent welcome.  I know these are not the times for

 3     celebrations because we are living in very unfortunate times.  Trouble

 4     and misfortune forced us to follow this path.  You were all witnesses

 5     when we were closed off and attacked, when all roads towards the

 6     Republic of Srpska Krajina were closed off and when it was made

 7     impossible for us to have the most basic means of living, no medicine,

 8     our sick were dying, our wives were forced to ask foreign soldiers for

 9     cigarettes.  We suffered the ultimate misfortune.  We addressed our

10     requests to the UNPROFOR to make that passage and the corridor available

11     to us.  But the UNPROFOR did not meet that request, and they did not make

12     that passage available.  This should not be a surprise when it is known

13     that the USA, Germany and other countries which most certainly are not

14     well-intentioned toward the Serbian people are directing the UNPROFOR.

15     All credit to the Kenyans who are definitely for us, but a majority of

16     the representatives of UNPROFOR are most certainly not well intentioned

17     towards us and do not have our best interest at heart and that is why we

18     decided not to beg anybody for mercy, not even the the UNPROFOR, not

19     Genscher, not Kohl, not Bush, and not that wretched Yeltsin.  We had set

20     off penetrating with our Serbian heroes to break through the corridor,

21     aware that it could cost us our lives.  Unfortunately that did happen.

22     25 of our heroes from --"

23             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Just to pause here.

24        Q.   Dr. Nielsen, when Martic talks about the breaking through the

25     corridor, what is he referring to?

Page 2461

 1        A.   He is referring to a military operation with extensive police

 2     participation that took place in the summer of 1992, the strategic goal

 3     of which was to make sure that there was a corridor, a territorial

 4     corridor linking the eastern and western portions of Republika Srpska in

 5     Bosnia and Herzegovina.  Forces including RSK MUP forces from the RSK

 6     participated extensively in that operation and it is again an

 7     illustration of the common goals and co-operation between the RS and the

 8     RSK.

 9             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Before we break, can we play the rest of this

10     clip.

11                           [Video-clip played]

12             THE INTERPRETER:  "[Voiceover] Milan Martic:  ... from our

13     Krajina police brigade died in that bloody battle for the corridor.

14     Those men were certainly not killed or erased from our memories.  Those

15     are the Serbian Obilics, rest assured.  Commander Raso, one of the

16     biggest heroes ever known to the Serbian people will go down in the

17     history books of the Serbian people and that is where he belongs.  All

18     others who fell in glory at this corridor in order to secure a better

19     future for you deserve that place.  They were also not killed but we --

20     it is up to us who have stayed behind.  It is our obligation not to

21     forget their families and we will never do that.  We will never forget

22     them, rest assured.  I am absolutely sure that when we had set off.  I

23     had -- we had a blessing from 99 per cent of you and that you were

24     convinced that we would complete our task given to us by president of the

25     Republic of Serbian Krajina, Mr. Goran Hadzic, and by the government of

Page 2462

 1     the Republic of Serbian Krajina to open this corridor up.  You were

 2     convinced that we would complete that task.  You knew that these heroes

 3     who participated in many battles --"

 4             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Thank you.

 5        Q.   Here Martic is saying that the opening of the corridor was a task

 6     given to us by our president of the republic.  Based on -- on which I

 7     would say constitutional powers, perhaps, was the president of the

 8     republic issuing such assignments?

 9        A.   In my report in paragraph 55, I mention the constitutional

10     articles that describe the functions, authorities, and responsibilities

11     of the president of the republic, and these include as we see on the top

12     of page 18 of my report, commanding the armed forces in war and peace,

13     preparing the defence of the republic and ordering mobilisations.  To the

14     extent that we hear no as is stated in various RSK documents that the

15     police is also included in definition of armed forces, this is an

16     operation that could be said to have been instructed or ordered as Martic

17     is just saying here pursuant to this article of the constitution.

18             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Thank you.  Your Honours, would this be an

19     appropriate time.

20             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Indeed.  Dr. Nielsen, we will take the break and

21     come back at 12.45.  The usher will escort you out of the courtroom.

22     Thank you.

23                           [The witness stands down]

24             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Court adjourned.

25                           --- Recess taken at 12.16 p.m.

Page 2463

 1                           --- On resuming at 12.46 p.m.

 2                           [The witness takes the stand]

 3             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Demirdjian.

 4             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Thank you, Your Honours.

 5        Q.   Dr. Nielsen, before I move to the next chapter which is the

 6     emergence of the Serb police in Croatia, I would like to show you a

 7     second clip from the same video we were watching now on Sanction.

 8     Following Martic's speech, we see here a speech by Goran Hadzic.  Can we

 9     play it now, please.

10                           [Video-clip played]

11             THE INTERPRETER:  "[Voiceover] May God be with you heroes.  May

12     God with be you."

13             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  He gives a short speech for about a minute and a

14     half.  Can we go towards the end which is at the 52 minutes and

15     25 seconds mark.

16                           [Video-clip played]

17             THE INTERPRETER:  "[Voiceover] Now I don't want to tire our brave

18     troops in this sun any more.  I would like to thank them once again and

19     to publicly announce here for the first time that from today we have two

20     new generals of the Serbian Army.  Those are Borislav Djukic and

21     Milan Martic.  Cheers and thank you."

22             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Thank you.

23        Q.   And so I just wanted to tie this in with paragraph 56 of your

24     report where you mentioned the promotion of Martic and Djukic.  So this

25     would have been a promotion of these two gentlemen.  Under which powers

Page 2464

 1     again would they be promoted?

 2        A.   My understanding of the constitutional structure of the RSK is

 3     that the president of the republic is also commanding the armed forces in

 4     war and peace as I noted stated in paragraph 55 of my report from

 5     Article 78 of the constitution, and as such the president also has the

 6     authority to promote military officers, in particular senior military

 7     officers.

 8        Q.   Very well.

 9             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Your Honours, this second clip was not admitted.

10     Can I please tender it.

11             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Admitted and marked.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  I assume 65 ter document 4945.3.

13             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Yes, that's the one.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  It shall be assigned Exhibit P367.  Thank you.

15             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

16             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Thank you very much.

17        Q.   Now, Dr. Nielsen, I will move to the section dealing with the

18     emergence of the Serb police in Croatia.  Before getting into the section

19     of your report, could I ask you about the documents that were at your

20     disposal in relation to the Croatian Serb police force.  You have written

21     reports in the past relating to the other -- for example, the

22     Bosnian Serb police.  How would you regard the quality of the material

23     that was available in relation to the Croatian Serb police in comparison?

24        A.   The overall state of documentation that was collected by the OTP

25     regarding the various permutations of the Croatian Serb police is far

Page 2465

 1     inferior to the comparable state of documentation that was available to

 2     me as an analyst when I performed my analysis of the Bosnian Serb police.

 3     This raises a number of methodological issues, but I should note it is

 4     also my conclusion that the sparse and at many times unsatisfactory

 5     condition of the documentation and its contents regarding the Croatian

 6     Serb police is reflective of what is comparatively speaking a much more

 7     skeletal and amateurish operation when compared to their Bosnian Serb

 8     colleagues.

 9             It should also be noted, and I'm well aware given my history as

10     an employee at the Tribunal, that the state of documentation for the

11     Croatian Serb police also reflects the difficulties encountered during

12     repeated attempts to obtain that material from the relevant governments,

13     not least because when we speak of Eastern Slavonia, Baranja, and Srem

14     during the long transitional period that was in place there, much of the

15     documentation was removed to other locations and still remains

16     unavailable, if it indeed exists at all today.

17        Q.   Now, in this chapter you deal with the creation of the SAO

18     Krajina.  I will not delve into that, because I think you sufficiently

19     describe it.

20             If we look at the creation of the MUP and the SBWS, at

21     paragraph 99 you describe the appointment of Borislav Bogunovic as the

22     first minister of internal affairs in September of 1991, and again in

23     relation to the availability of sources, were you able to find documents

24     relating, for example, to the structure of this ministry?

25        A.   I was not able to find any what I as an analyst would call core

Page 2466

 1     documents that clearly and concisely outline the structure of the

 2     Ministry of Internal Affairs that was established in Slavonia, Baranja,

 3     and Western Srem.  Again if I may speak comparatively of the sources

 4     available to me, then I would state where I have already observed that

 5     the overall state of Croatian Serb police documentation was inferior

 6     compared to that available for the Bosnian Serb police, it is also the

 7     case that even within the -- let's say the -- the world of documentation

 8     pertaining to Serb police structures in Croatia, there the best

 9     documentation pertains to the SAO Krajina area and the later RSK and the

10     sparsest information is by contrast available for SAO Western Slavonia

11     and the SAO Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem.

12        Q.   Later you indicate that Borislav Bogunovic stepped down at the

13     end of 1991, and at paragraph 118 you indicate that he was replaced by

14     Predrag Radlovic.  You wrote in your report that it may be inferred that

15     as of February 1992 Radlovic was the minister.  Now this document was not

16     available to you at the time.

17             Could we display 65 ter 817 at tab 397, please.

18             And Dr. Nielsen does this document give you additional

19     information in relation to paragraph 118 of your report?

20        A.   Yes.  This document is a -- the gazetted version of the decision

21     to elect a minister of internal affairs, Predrag Radlovic and is dated

22     the 19th of September, 1991.

23        Q.   I think it is December actually, if I'm not incorrect.  Is it

24     September or December?

25        A.   I thought I said September --  excuse me, December.  It is

Page 2467

 1     December.

 2        Q.   December.  Thank you.  Your Honours, may I tender this document

 3     which is not in his report?

 4             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Admitted and marked.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  It shall be assigned Exhibit P368.  Thank you.

 6             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:

 7        Q.   At paragraph 117, 117, sorry, you also explain the creation of a

 8     service of national security in the SAO SBWS and again you explain you

 9     had very limited documentation available about this service.  Could you

10     tell the Court typically what is the role of the national security

11     service?

12        A.   If we speak of the police and other organs of internal affairs in

13     Yugoslavia historically, then there has since 1945 been public security

14     and a state security as the two component branches of internal affairs.

15     State security in some cases, later also called national security in

16     various structures established by the Serbs in the 1990s, is entrusted

17     with protecting both the integrity of the state and chiefly with

18     protecting the constitutionally established order of the state against

19     enemies internal and external.

20        Q.   Very well.  Now, at paragraph 120, you cite a report from the

21     Vukovar district centre for the first six months of 1992.

22             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Can we display 65 ter 1190, 1190, at tab 221.

23     And if we could zoom into the first paragraph, please.  Thank you.

24        Q.   Now, can you give us your comments on the first paragraph,

25     Dr. Nielsen.

Page 2468

 1        A.   As noted, this is a report on the work for the first six months

 2     of 1992 by the State Security Department of the state security centre in

 3     Vukovar temporarily located in Dalj, and we see here that they have been

 4     carrying out operational work attempting to encounter and eliminate

 5     threats of the enemy and trying to organise the defence and protection of

 6     that area in co-operation with other authorities.  Again, this is -- this

 7     concurs with what I just stated about the classic role of the work of the

 8     State Security Service within the Yugoslav context.

 9        Q.   Could we go to page 4 in English, the top part, and this is the

10     equivalent of page 3 in the B/C/S version towards the bottom.  Now,

11     throughout this report the state security describes the activities of its

12     units in the first part of 1992, and here it describes also if you see

13     the paragraph in English which starts with truly speaking, this describes

14     what appears to be -- here the term is used moving out of some Croats,

15     which is labelled as extremely inappropriate way.  Can you comment on

16     this paragraph, Dr. Nielsen?

17        A.   The State Security Service was among its many activities also

18     charged with keeping an eye on the state of security in the areas over

19     which they had jurisdiction and this included reporting on any

20     manifestations or actions that in any way, shape, or form would threaten

21     the security of the state.  In this context, they have seen fit to also

22     report on what they call the moving out or -- or emigration of Croats

23     from this area which they state happened in an unacceptable manner or

24     inappropriate manner, and I can point out that looking at the totality of

25     documentation that I've been able to examine, including documentation

Page 2469

 1     produced by the police, by some organs of the TO and some organs of the

 2     JNA, there are a number of reports that indicate that in the fall of 1991

 3     and the spring of 1992, a significant number of Croats were removed from

 4     this area in a way that others, including -- others than just the

 5     State Security Service, found inappropriate and detrimental to the

 6     security situation in the area.

 7        Q.   Now, in relation to this topic, I would like to deal with some of

 8     the new documents which weren't contained in your report before.

 9             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  If we could display 65 ter 6052, please.  This

10     is at tab 347.

11                           [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

12             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  This is again part of the same collection for

13     which we haven't answered.  We can use it in public session.  I

14     apologise.

15             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

16             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:

17        Q.   Dr. Nielsen, this is a document which we can see was issued on

18     the 17th of December, 1991, by the 1st Proletarian Guards Mechanised

19     Division.  Now, have you had the opportunity to review this document?

20        A.   Yes, I have.

21        Q.   And perhaps as a general assessment from you, could you perhaps

22     provide to the Trial Chamber your views on this collection of documents

23     which were provided to you after the drafting of your report?  Did you

24     find them to be relevant to the topics in your report?

25        A.   The bulk of the additional documents that were provided to me

Page 2470

 1     stem from various military units of the JNA, particularly from the second

 2     half of 1991, and deal with various events and observations that they

 3     have about these events in Eastern Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem,

 4     and in many cases although these are military documents, they see fit to

 5     comment on the activities and behaviour of the police forces and their

 6     relationship in turn with various paramilitary formations that were

 7     present during this period in that area in 1991.  As such, they touch on

 8     a number of points which were previously dealt with in my report before I

 9     was able to review these documents.

10        Q.   Now, looking at this report and this first large paragraph,

11     the -- this division of the army deals with the settlements which were

12     predominantly inhabited by Croatians.

13             Towards the end of the paragraph, there is a sentence here which

14     explains that many settlements the Serbian population through the TO

15     staffs exercised pressure to have the Croatian population move out

16     completely.

17             Can you give us some background to -- to this?

18        A.   First I would just like to assist the Chamber by pointing out

19     that the subject header of this document is missing from the translation.

20     The B/C/S original right below the addressee, which is the 1st military

21     command of the commission for civilian affairs, states that the subject

22     of the correspondence is the opinion regarding the question of emigration

23     and immigration that is being sought.  So what is happening here is that

24     this command is writing to the 1st military command to find out what are

25     we supposed to do with regards to people who were being removed in or

Page 2471

 1     being moved out of -- of this particular area in which they are present.

 2             And one thing we see in this particular document, and this is

 3     reflected in a number of the other new documents that I've been able to

 4     examine, is that the military is struggling with the question of how to

 5     categorise the remaining residents of, in particular, Croat nationality,

 6     who, as they state in point 1 down on the first page, who are loyal and

 7     who do not have any family members in the Croatian armed forces.  How to

 8     treat locals who maybe had children, sons or grandsons, in the Croatian

 9     armed forces but had not themselves compromised themselves in any way by

10     assisting those forces.

11             The military is very much struggling and so is the police at some

12     point -- at the same point in time as to whether there is some kind of

13     collective guilt that -- that obtains on an ethnic basis for Croats which

14     would result in a need to remove all of them from this area or whether

15     some of them may be permitted to remain resident in this area if they

16     have not in any way compromised themselves by assisting the Croatian

17     armed forces.

18        Q.   And as you pointed out here, this division, the 1st Proletarian

19     Guards Mechanised Division, is seeking advice or is seeking guidance from

20     its higher command?  Is that how we should read it?

21        A.   That is correct.  They are stating what the situation is on the

22     ground and they are referring to a very volatile situation, in particular

23     as we see also from other documents because of the arrival of large

24     number of displaced Serbs from Western Slavonia who of course wish to

25     settle in areas of Eastern Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem that are

Page 2472

 1     now under Serbian control and who in many -- on many occasions are

 2     forcibly removing Croats and others who are not of Serbian ethnicity from

 3     houses if these houses are not already vacant so these types of issues

 4     are the military is aware of them, and they are seeking clarification:

 5     How are they supposed to act given this very dynamic and volatile

 6     situation that they're confronting on the ground.

 7        Q.   Thank you.

 8             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Your Honours, we will request a revised

 9     translation so that the title which is missing in the English version is

10     included.  So in the meantime can we mark it for identification, please.

11             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Marked for identification.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  It shall be assigned Exhibit P369 marked for

13     identification pending translation -- correct translation, thank you.

14             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Can we now look at 65 ter 6053 at tab 348,

15     please.

16        Q.   Dr. Nielsen, you can see that this is again a document from the

17     same unit, the 1st Proletarian Guards Mechanised Division on the 23rd of

18     December.  So this is six days after the previous document, and it starts

19     with "To the questions asked," and you see questions 1, 2, 3, 4.  If we

20     can go to the next page in the English version, please.  You see on the

21     top of the page, "we have received the following reply from the command

22     of the 1st Military District."

23             Now, before I ask you more questions about that, have you had the

24     opportunity to review this document?

25        A.   Yes, I have.

Page 2473

 1        Q.   What can you say about the answers that were provided by the

 2     1st Military District?

 3        A.   First, as we see from the very beginning of the response of the

 4     military command this is, as I previously mentioned, tied to the -- not

 5     only the departure of Croats from this area but also the arrival of Serb

 6     refugees from other areas, in particular Western Slavonia, that creates

 7     this dynamic to which I referred.  And then the military is -- or

 8     military command is responding that they should insofar as possible

 9     attempt to resolve this in accordance with the requests of the Serbs who

10     come from those other areas and also in co-operation with civilian organs

11     of authority where they exist, where they do not exist, then one should

12     defer to the town command in terms of resolving this and if no town

13     command exists either, then obtain an opinion of the government of the

14     Serb district of Baranja, Eastern Slavonia, and Western Srem.

15        Q.   Now, based on this collection of documents you have seen and we

16     will see more in a minute, what can you say about this relationship

17     between JNA units and the local civilian organs of authority?

18        A.   What I can say and again based on the limited amount of

19     documentation that exists on this question is that it's a highly

20     contingent relationship, and what I mean by that is that it very much

21     hinges in many cases on, as we see in this document, whether any civilian

22     authorities and in particular also in police authorities exist in these

23     areas, and when those authorities exist, the further resolution of this

24     problem is highly contingent upon the personalities involved and their

25     personal views on whether Croats and others who are not of Serbian

Page 2474

 1     ethnicity should be allowed to remain in that area and how the settlement

 2     of the arriving Serb displaced persons should be achieved.

 3             It is also further contingent upon the presence or absence in

 4     some cases of paramilitary units in those municipalities and settlements.

 5     Generally speaking, of course, where the paramilitary units are present,

 6     that tends to significantly complicate the picture and in many cases lead

 7     to attacks on the remaining Croats and others.

 8        Q.   If we could quickly look at page 3 in the English version, and,

 9     Dr. Nielsen, in the original it is probably the third paragraph from the

10     bottom with starts with "All cases of illegal moving away."  First of

11     all, could you perhaps give us some clarification as to the term that is

12     used in the original Serbian version.  I'm referring to the term "illegal

13     moving away."

14        A.   Well, yes.  If I may also be permitted to refer to the previous

15     document.  There's two essential terms that need to be understood in

16     Serbian here.  One is "iseljavanje" and the other is "useljavanje," where

17     "iseljavanje" means literally moving away and "useljavanje" means

18     settling into.  So this is a dual process.  Serbs who have been forcibly

19     removed, "iseljavanje," from Western Slavonia are moving in,

20     "useljavanje."  In Eastern Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem, Croats

21     who used to reside in Eastern Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem are

22     moving out, "iseljavanje," from that area and probably being resettled in

23     other areas in Croatia although we know some of them also go abroad.

24        Q.   And what -- what would you make the term "ilegalnog," which is

25     right before the word "iseljavanje" in this document?

Page 2475

 1        A.   Well, that -- that, of course, means illegal.  That is --

 2     certainly the perception of Major-General Delic, who is the author of

 3     this document, is that there were if not in all cases, certainly in a

 4     large number of cases occurrences where people were being illegally

 5     removed from their residences and such cases needed to be documented and

 6     resolved as he notes in co-operation with the security organs of the JNA

 7     and the organs of public security of the district, that is of the SAO, or

 8     of the places, and organs of public security concretely, that means in

 9     co-operation with the police.

10        Q.   And -- well, we have skipped a little bit over some of the events

11     that took place towards the end of 1991.  This document is dated

12     December 1991.  What was the -- to your knowledge, from the documents you

13     have reviewed, what was the state of combat activities in

14     Eastern Slavonia at that time?

15        A.   As a matter of general knowledge, I believe that after the fall

16     of Vukovar in the second half of 1991, major combat operations and

17     activities had ceased in this area.

18             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Thank you.  May I offer this document,

19     Your Honours.

20             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Admitted and marked.

21             THE REGISTRAR:  It shall be assigned Exhibit P370.  Thank you.

22             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

23             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  On the same topic, could we display 65 ter 6058,

24     please.  That is at tab 350.  I apologise.  This is not the right

25     document.

Page 2476

 1        Q.   Now, Dr. Nielsen, here we see this is a document issued by the

 2     town command in Ilok on the 25th of December, 1991.  Have you had the

 3     opportunity to review this document?

 4        A.   Yes, I have.

 5        Q.   And this document again deals with the settlement or movement of

 6     population after the -- the end of combat activities.  Could I ask you to

 7     look at the end of the first paragraph which makes a comment about the

 8     attitude of the SAO government at the time, and could you perhaps comment

 9     on this entry.

10        A.   The JNA command in the city -- or town of Ilok is expressing

11     quite strong dissatisfaction with what, as the document notes, is the

12     indifference and unjustifiable indolence of the government of the SAO

13     which in a rather odd term they say causes a handful of unobjective

14     difficulties.  I read that as problems that did not have to exist if a

15     more magnanimous or constructive approach had been adopted by the

16     government.  This again reflects the contingency to which I referred

17     where it is highly dependent on which decision-makers and actors are

18     being asked to address this issue of people moving in or out of the area.

19             I should also note since we dealt with terminology that a keyword

20     in these documents around this time is the word "loyalty," whereas we saw

21     in the previous document, the military expresses the opinion that persons

22     who have behaved in a loyal manner towards the JNA and Yugoslavia should

23     be permitted to remain, but in this very volatile atmosphere of ethnic

24     conflict, it is not at all clear who is allowed to determine whether

25     someone has been loyal or not or whether objective criteria for that even

Page 2477

 1     exist.

 2        Q.   And if we could take it to page 2 in the B/C/S version and page 3

 3     in the English version, please.

 4             What is the JNA suggesting here?  They seem to be proposing a

 5     number of items.

 6        A.   Well, among many other things, they are suggesting that this

 7     procedure of resettlement has to take place in a much more organised

 8     manner where there would be precise lists made of people leaving or

 9     arriving, not least to mitigate against unorganised forced removal of

10     persons.  They are asking also for decisions by the SAO that would entail

11     them receiving some kind of written permission and justification that --

12     for where they were supposed to move in and inventories of those houses,

13     inventory of the items they brought with them, et cetera, and again to

14     the extent that much of this is taking place without any documentation or

15     all -- at all, and where the military and to some extent the police also

16     report that people are arriving from Western Slavonia and in some cases

17     grabbing the first available house regardless of whether it is inhabited

18     or not particularly if the inhabitants are not Serbs, the military

19     clearly wants to see a structured official system that could also be

20     documented to reduce the abuses that they're witnessing.

21        Q.   And towards the bottom of this document and in English if we

22     could scroll down, we see here that the very issue of the unauthorised

23     settlement in Ilok, as you say, has not been done with -- with the proper

24     issuing of permits.  And if we could continue to the next page in the

25     English version.

Page 2478

 1             The army here is assuming the involvement, it appears, of the

 2     members of the government.  How would you take this sentence?

 3        A.   What they are stating here is that it would essentially be --

 4     they talk about the forcible, "useljavanje."  Again, this is the forcible

 5     settlement to the place of Ilok or the settlement of Ilok even though the

 6     command has not given or issued a single order to that effect.  They

 7     don't want to waste time on details, but they speculate the military

 8     does, that a behind the scenes minister, the minister of internal affairs

 9     of the SAO, Bogunovic and Ljubo Loncarevic, a former police officer,

10     currently in Backa Palanka that they are involved in this.  This again is

11     indicative of a larger group of documents that I've examined, some from

12     the Serbian DB, some from the JNA, some from the police in

13     Eastern Slavonia in which it is often speculated that various

14     individuals, some of them linked to the authorities in the region, are

15     deriving personal economic gain from the forcible resettlement of the

16     population in the area.

17             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Your Honours, may I offer this document.

18             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Admitted and marked.

19             THE REGISTRAR:  It shall be assigned Exhibit P371.  Thank you.

20             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

21             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  May we display 65 ter 6093, which is at tab 361.

22        Q.   Dr. Nielsen, you're going to see a document which is dated a

23     couple of months after these suggestions by the JNA.  This is dated the

24     11th of February.  Could you tell us first of all who is the author of

25     this documents?

Page 2479

 1        A.   Well, the author of the document is the central commission for

 2     settlement, which is composed of Borislav Bogunovic.  I see that's listed

 3     as illegible though it isn't on the original.  And also Bogdan Vojnovic,

 4     and Vojin Susa -- Susa, and one more person.

 5        Q.   And it appears that here the -- these members of the central

 6     settlement committee are responding to a memo issued by the Mohovo local

 7     commune.  Could you just in terms of context tell the Judges where Mohovo

 8     is if you're aware?

 9        A.   I'm not off the top of my head precisely aware of its location

10     but I would note that Mohovo is dealt with in the document we just

11     reviewed; that is to say that it was one of the places listed in the

12     previous document where there were houses that had been vacated by Croats

13     which according to that previous document were available for settlement

14     by Serbs.

15        Q.   Okay.  Thank you for that.  So what advice or what is the answer

16     provided here by the central settlement committee to the questions or the

17     memo sent by the Mohovo local commune?

18        A.   In this document, they note that the process of resettlement is

19     ongoing and they state the central settlement commission does that they

20     must inform the Mohovo local commune that no decisions have been taken as

21     yet by the government of the Serb district regarding the moving out of

22     persons of Croatian nationality.  However, they express some

23     understanding for the desire of the Mohovo local commune to potentially

24     remove those individuals who have collaborated with the enemy and as they

25     call it the Ustasha authorities if these actions can be established.  But

Page 2480

 1     again, this is one of these documents from this particular period in

 2     which we see that various authorities are trying to determine whether

 3     there can be a uniform policy that can be implemented on these crucial

 4     questions and we also see as this is -- clearly a response to the Mohovo

 5     local commune that there is pressure from the bottom, from the ground up,

 6     from the local communities to resolve these questions as quickly as

 7     possible and they are seeking guidance as to that.

 8        Q.   And in the third paragraph of this document, the one that begins

 9     with "However," in the third line, at least in the English version, we

10     seem to see this association again to collaboration with the enemy and

11     the Ustasha authority.  Does that match with what we were mentioning just

12     a little bit earlier?

13        A.   Yes, it does, and again they are actually stating here in the

14     first sentence of that paragraph that the organs of the local commune in

15     Mohovo can establish whether these individuals on the list they provided

16     had violated the law and the legal order of the Serb district.  So this

17     again goes to this question of who is it precisely who is allowed during

18     this period to determine whether someone has been loyal and -- a loyal

19     and law-abiding citizen or not.

20        Q.   Thank you.

21             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Your Honours, may I tender this document.

22             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Admitted and marked.

23             THE REGISTRAR:  It shall be assigned Exhibit P372.  Thank you.

24             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Could we display 65 ter 6096, please.  That's

25     tab 363.

Page 2481

 1        Q.   Dr. Nielsen, this is a document from around the same time as the

 2     previous document.  This time it's on the 16th of February, 1992, from

 3     the command of the 1st Mechanised Corps.  First of all, have you had the

 4     opportunity to review this document?

 5        A.   Yes, I have.

 6        Q.   Now, this is specifically drafted by the organs of the CP.  Have

 7     you seen this acronym before?

 8        A.   Yes.  This is a report of the organs for civilian affairs.  That

 9     is the "civilni poslovi."  B/C/S.

10        Q.   Okay.  Now, under item 1, there is a discussion about the

11     creation of local communities and civilian organs of authority.  Under

12     item 2 I believe there will be a discussion about the creation of the

13     police on the territory.  I don't know if you can see it on this page.

14     Let's -- that's on the next page.  Yes.  Thank you for that.

15             Now, we go to item 4 in the English version.  It's at page 4.  On

16     the B/C/S version I think it's on the same page.

17             Now, it tells us here in the course of its work the civilian

18     organ of this command has encountered the following problems, resolving

19     the issue of settlements and displacements, and you can see here again at

20     paragraph 2 the issue of relocated persons putting pressure on the local

21     population, and they mention here the support of the local organs of

22     authority ranging from the government to the local commune.

23             Can you give us your views on this, please.

24        A.   This document again illustrates the contingency of what's going

25     on here geographically speaking.  There are various phases in which the

Page 2482

 1     civilian organs or authorities, including the police, are being

 2     constructed.  The military is trying to keep up with where such

 3     authorities exist or not and to establish co-operation with them if that

 4     is the case.  However, the military is also confronting in many cases as

 5     we see here a hostility on the part of already existing local organs of

 6     authority to the very notion of any continued co-existence between Croats

 7     and others not of Serbian nationality on the one hand and Serbs on the

 8     other.  And they also note that in a number of cases, the various

 9     representatives of the government, including a group of secret police,

10     have appeared.  It's difficult for the military to determine again

11     whether these are legitimate organs or not, but they note that in many

12     cases these groups seem to have some kind of official support and are

13     engaging in activities that among other things involve the forcible

14     movement of persons.

15             They also again note this problem of the elderly who remain in

16     the area and who it is -- we're able to understand from this and other

17     documents have not themselves in any way violated the newly established

18     legal order of the Serb district but who are targeted at least by some

19     authorities because they had sons, daughters, or other members of the

20     family who participated in the Croatian armed forces or police.

21        Q.   Now, if we return to page 1 in the B/C/S version and page 2 in

22     the English version, I'd like to bring your attention to the paragraph

23     which begins -- the large paragraph towards the end of the first page in

24     B/C/S, members of the local population and Serbs who have settled from

25     other parts.

Page 2483

 1             Now, we see the type of crimes they're dealing with here.

 2     They're talking about unsolved murders and pressure to have the Croatian

 3     population move out, and as you indicated earlier, we see a number of

 4     villages including Mohovo, and the fact that the Croatian houses are

 5     being occupied, et cetera.

 6             Again, does this match with other documents that you have seen

 7     around this time?

 8        A.   Yes.  This conforms to the type of manifestations and actions

 9     that I've been describing.

10             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  I'd like to tender the document this document,

11     Your Honours.

12             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Admitted and marked.

13             THE REGISTRAR:  It shall assigned Exhibit P373.  Thank you.

14             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:

15        Q.   In this series of documents, I'd like to refer to one last

16     document which is 65 ter 6162 at tab 392, please.

17             Now, Dr. Nielsen, this is again another document from the

18     1st Mechanised Corps.  In previous documents we have seen that the --

19     those who were targeted by these resettlements mainly were targeting

20     Croat -- members of the Croat ethnicity.  Here we see that -- and you can

21     see this towards the end of the first paragraph, we're dealing with

22     Ruthenians and Ukrainians in the territory of the Vukovar municipality.

23     What can you say about the targeting of this group of the population?

24        A.   Speaking again on the basis of the totality of documentation that

25     I've been able to examine not just this new military documentation but

Page 2484

 1     existing police documentation including documentation of the

 2     State Security Service of Serbia, I would note that whereas the main

 3     thrust of the removals from this area was focused on Croats, this was of

 4     course an area that featured a very diverse and multi-ethnic demographic

 5     population.  And what I mean by that is that we have these Ruthenians,

 6     Ukrainians, Hungarians, Slovaks, some Czechs, and in a number of cases

 7     the military indicates that it is not just the Croats who are being

 8     pressured to resettle or who experienced security problems, that is

 9     lacking protection by the civilian or other authorities but also as in

10     this case the Ruthenian and Ukrainian population that is concerned.  I am

11     also aware that the Slovaks in particular actually sent a delegation to

12     the federal secretariat for internal affairs around this time in an

13     effort to get the authorities in Belgrade to offer them some measure of

14     security against what they viewed as threats to their continued existence

15     in this area.  It is plain from that and other documents that the Slovaks

16     in particular were targeted by some Serbs because Slovakia, like Croatia,

17     had during World War II been a fascist puppet state allied with

18     Nazi Germany.

19        Q.   Thank you, Dr. Nielsen.

20             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Your Honours, may I offer this document, please.

21             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Admitted and marked.

22             THE REGISTRAR:  It shall be assigned Exhibit P374.  Thank you.

23             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:

24        Q.   Now, on this topic of forcible resettlements, Dr. Nielsen, I

25     would like to take you to paragraph 206 of your report.  You mentioned

Page 2485

 1     that, and this is contemporaneous to the reports we have just seen, on

 2     the 2nd of March during a SFRY Presidency at which Goran Hadzic and other

 3     members of the Serb leadership were present, there was a discussion by

 4     Radovan Karadzic in relation to population exchange, and you quote from

 5     these stenographic records that Dr. Karadzic states:

 6             "Who will force the Croats from Vojvodina to go to Krajina?

 7     Those are nebulous ideas and the world is shocked by them.  Although

 8     India and Pakistan even did also such things."

 9             And you carry on to say that Hadzic interjected by saying that

10     these are not -- this is not nebulous.

11             Having reviewed the stenographic records, can you tell us how we

12     should interpret this answer given by Goran Hadzic?

13             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Gosnell.

14             MR. GOSNELL:  Mr. President, since we seem to be describing

15     specific words in the stenographic reports, wouldn't it be appropriate to

16     call those up and have them in front of the witness when he's commenting?

17             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  That's P37 - thank you - at tab 171.  In the

18     B/C/S version we're looking at page 92, and in the English version it's

19     page 68.  Yes.  Thank you.

20        Q.   Dr. Nielsen, would you need me to repeat the question, or are you

21     satisfied?

22        A.   I am happy to answer the question, and I'm thankful that I have

23     the transcript in front of me, or the stenographic records, rather.  Here

24     at this meeting this is one of a number of occasions where there's a

25     quite loose discussion of not just specific topics but general problems,

Page 2486

 1     and Karadzic has at one point as I note mentioned this very memorable

 2     episode of the partition of -- in south Asia where a very large number of

 3     people passed away violently during the migrations that took place there,

 4     and then he says that it's at this moment in Europe questionable whether

 5     that would be feasible.  And as I note, the -- and I can supplement if we

 6     take the full quote of Karadzic, he says that these are -- it's not as

 7     much as questionable, but he says that, "I'm making -- mentioning this so

 8     that we know about their way of thinking, their way of hopes because it

 9     will not be organised and nobody will be able to hold -- to hold on down

10     there."  He's indicating, as I read it, that this is not a process that

11     can easily be controlled by anyone if such a huge process is set into

12     motion, and I think as a matter of general knowledge, we all know how

13     that transpired in India and Pakistan.

14             And then we have the response from Goran Hadzic.  He says, There

15     is nothing nebulous, or, as I translate it, That is not nebulous, and

16     then he goes on to say which appears to be a bit of a conundrum in the

17     transcript, Serbs from Zagreb need to be resettled and Serbs from

18     Belgrade and now from this territory, that's actually missing from the

19     translation, and now from this territory, there's -- there is no

20     question.  And I would there respectfully differ with whether he's saying

21     that is out of the question now.  I see it as being that there is no --

22     there is no discussion of that.

23             So what is clear is that there's a discussion in this particular

24     meeting of the supreme defence -- excuse me, socialist Presidency --

25     excuse me, the Presidency of Yugoslavia in which they have a discussion

Page 2487

 1     of a well-known historical incident of mass migration that had very

 2     violent consequences, and Hadzic and Karadzic are both expressing their

 3     opinions on it here.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  I would like now to move to the section of your

 5     report where you deal with the police and the RSK between 1992 and 1993.

 6     You discuss here the union of the Serb autonomous regions.  This is

 7     paragraph 121 onwards, and the adoption of the Law on Internal Affairs.

 8             I would like to ask you about, and this is a topic we discussed

 9     earlier, about the relationship between the JNA and these emerging

10     civilian authorities and perhaps to illustrate this if we could display

11     65 ter 6026 which is at tab 338, please.  It's 65 ter 6026, tab 338.

12     Thank you.

13             Now, this document is dated 20th of November, 1991, and it seems

14     to be issued by the 1st Military District.  Dr. Nielsen, under item 2 we

15     could see here that in relation to the task of local commands, the

16     military is discussing the establishment of military authority, making

17     lists of military conscripts and establishing the civilian authorities

18     and taking steps to ensure law and order, et cetera.

19             If we go to page 2 in the English version and the B/C/S version,

20     we can see at the bottom of the B/C/S version and also at the bottom of

21     the English version mentions members of the local government and

22     authorities.

23             Now, again this is just an illustration, but on the totality of

24     the documents that you have seen at the time following the fall of

25     Vukovar, how could you -- how can you qualify this relationship between

Page 2488

 1     the JNA and the local authorities?

 2        A.   Again, I keep coming back to the term contingent.  It really

 3     depends on which particular settlement, which particular municipality

 4     we're looking at, because the civilian authorities, in that I include the

 5     police, the organs of internal affairs and public security, are in

 6     various stages of formation and in many cases not particularly well

 7     functioning at this case -- or at this time, rather.  But in all cases,

 8     the military is quite keen to identify the relevant civilian organs of

 9     authority to help them become operational and to obtain their assistance

10     in resolving the pressing problems that they're all trying to confront.

11        Q.   And without treading too far in military matters because we will

12     have a military expert, to your understanding as these combat operations

13     come to an end, what is the role of these local commands or town

14     commands?

15        A.   On that question I would simply defer to the military expert.

16        Q.   Very well.  And could we move to 65 ter 6071, which is at tab

17     355.

18             Now, this is about a month and a half after the previous

19     document.  It was issued by the 1st Mechanised Corps on the

20     13th of January, and it deals with the organisation and subordination of

21     the civil affairs organ.

22             In the English version, if we go to page 3, which is item 4.  I

23     believe we can stay on the same page in the B/C/S version.  Here the

24     1st Mechanised Corps deals with the units which are present in the area,

25     and it says that they are fully responsible in co-operation with SUP

Page 2489

 1     organs for organising and implementing security measures.  And under item

 2     5 it talks about command organs for civil affairs and town commands shall

 3     closely co-operate with legal and official government organs in populated

 4     areas and municipalities.

 5             And again I'm come back to the question I asked you earlier.

 6     Based on these documents, we see this term "co-operation."  How you do

 7     read this?

 8        A.   Likewise, I can again only come back to the answer I offered

 9     earlier which is that where the civilian authorities, including the

10     organs of internal affairs, are functioning, they are to co-operate with

11     the military and vice versa in resolving the issues that are -- are

12     confronting everyone, and that includes, of course, the settlement issue

13     that we discussed earlier.  It includes public security.  It includes

14     registration and securing of property.  It includes to some extent

15     sanitation and other issues, all of which are mentioned in these numerous

16     documents.

17             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Very well.  May I offer this document,

18     Your Honours.

19             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Admitted and marked.

20             THE REGISTRAR:  It shall be assigned Exhibit P375.  Thank you.

21             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

22             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:

23        Q.   Now, I'd like to move to a section of your report around

24     paragraph 156 onwards.  You mentioned in this section of your report that

25     the few orders issued by Goran Hadzic to the RSK MUP.  Now, 156, I think

Page 2490

 1     we have clarified this in the errata sheet that the sentence should read

 2     that President Hadzic ordered the RSK MUP to take over the security of

 3     the buildings.  I believe you remember that.

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   And at paragraph 161, and I would like you to clarify this for

 6     us, you mentioned that in August 1993, Goran Hadzic ordered the

 7     Ministry of Internal Affairs to arrest all dealers and resellers on the

 8     entire territory, and you wrote there "of narcotics."

 9             Could you explain to the Trial Chamber how you came to the -- to

10     that conclusion?

11        A.   Well, I can certainly explain.  It may be useful to have the

12     document on the screen as well, but I can tell you that again it's

13     important to state, as was noted in your comment, that there are really

14     very few documents, and I think that needs emphasising, very few

15     documents issued by Goran Hadzic directly to the police.  One of them, of

16     these few documents, is the one in paragraph 161, and in the B/C/S

17     original, the term used that I translate as dealers and then put

18     narcotics in parentheses is "diljeri," plural, which is obviously an

19     English word, from the English word "dealer," and in my experience of

20     that word in both the open sources and in other documents is used almost

21     exclusively to refer to persons who sell or purchase narcotics.  That is

22     why I added that comment in parentheses.

23        Q.   Thank you.  And in your experience have you seen similar orders

24     where narcotic dealers are mobilised in armed forces?

25        A.   My only recollection of such an order would be some similar

Page 2491

 1     orders that were issued by the police in Republika Srpska, in

 2     Bosnia-Herzegovina, during the same period.

 3        Q.   Very well.  Yes.  Now, in section 5 of your report you deal with

 4     the co-operation between the police of the Serb-controlled entities in

 5     Croatia and the MUP of Serbia.  And you refer to a number of documents

 6     where the DB writes reports about killings of men, for example, who were

 7     imprisoned in Dalj.  That's at paragraph 104 of your report.  You also

 8     deal with another report relating to -- paragraph 106 of your report, the

 9     events on the 18th of October, again about Arkan and a man named

10     Stricevic.

11             I'd like you to look at a document which is 65 ter 6075, at tab

12     356, in relation to this topic.

13             Yes.  Dr. Nielsen, this is again part of the package of documents

14     that you were provided after the completion of your report.  It is issued

15     by the command of the 80th Motorised Brigade on the 18th of January, and

16     it deals with units.  At that talks about paramilitary Chetnik formations

17     wandering about, and it talks about the liquidations -- quiet

18     liquidations of citizens here.

19             Now, this is a report by the army itself, and it states here that

20     neither the military police nor the civilian police know anything about

21     that.

22             With regards to the reports that are quoted or cited in your

23     report, how -- how does this one compare to them?  Those are in your

24     report or DB reports, and this is a military report.  What are your

25     comments on this one?

Page 2492

 1        A.   My comment would be that there are certainly available police

 2     reports both from the RSK and in particular from the DB of the

 3     Republic of Serbia that indicate that there was an awareness among the

 4     police that liquidations of civilians were being carried out by

 5     paramilitary formations.

 6        Q.   Very well.  And have you had the opportunity to review this

 7     document?

 8        A.   Yes, I have.  And again it could be possible that in this case

 9     the author of the document is referring very narrowly to recent

10     discussions he'd had with specific members of the military police or the

11     civilian police who insist that they know nothing about this particular

12     case of liquidation of this couple that is mentioned here, but certainly

13     there was a general awareness again reflected in the overall available

14     documentation that such liquidations were occurring particularly at the

15     hands of paramilitary groups.

16        Q.   Thank you.

17             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  May I offer this document, Your Honours.

18             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Admitted and marked.

19             THE REGISTRAR:  It shall be assigned Exhibit P376.  Thank you.

20             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Your Honours, is it the appropriate time to

21     break?

22             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Dr. Nielsen, this is the end of today's hearing.

23     You will come back tomorrow at 9.00, I presume.  You are -- you are still

24     under oath, which means, as you probably know, that you're not allowed to

25     discuss your testimony with anybody, and you're not to speak to anyone of


Page 2493

 1     the Prosecution or the Defence in the meantime.

 2             THE WITNESS:  I understand, Your Honour.  Thank you.

 3             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.  You will be escorted out.

 4                           [The witness stands down]

 5             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Court adjourned.

 6                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.00 p.m.,

 7                           to be reconvened on Friday, the 11th day

 8                           of January, 2013, at 9.00 a.m.


















* The bold and italicised text was previously confidential pursuant to a redaction order of the Chamber. The status of this redaction order has been changed from confidential to public per Chamber's decision of 10 January 2013.

* The bold and italicised text was previously confidential pursuant to a redaction order of the Chamber. The status of this redaction order has been changed from confidential to public per Chamber's decision of 10 January 2013.

* The bold and italicised text was previously confidential pursuant to a redaction order of the Chamber. The status of this redaction order has been changed from confidential to public per Chamber's decision of 10 January 2013.