1 Tuesday, 18 June 2013
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.00 a.m.
5 JUDGE DELVOIE: Good morning to everyone in and around the
7 Madam Registrar, could you call the case, please.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours.
9 This is the case IT-04-75-T, the Prosecutor versus Goran Hadzic.
10 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you very much.
11 Could we have the appearances, please, starting with the
13 MR. STRINGER: Good morning, Mr. President, Your Honours. For
14 the Prosecution, Douglas Stringer, Matthew Olmsted, Thomas Laugel, and
15 Brendan Bresnahan.
16 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
17 For the Defence, Mr. Zivanovic.
18 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Good morning, Your Honours. For the Defence of
19 Goran Hadzic, Zoran Zivanovic and Christopher Gosnell. Thank you.
20 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you very much.
21 Can we go into closed session, please.
22 [Closed session]
11 Page 5840 redacted. Closed session.
16 [Open session]
17 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
18 JUDGE DELVOIE: And you're asking for document number,
19 Mr. Olmsted? Could you repeat it.
20 MR. OLMSTED: Yes, Your Honour. If we could have on e-court
21 65 ter 447. This is tab 13.
22 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
23 MR. OLMSTED: And I'm interested in -- well, it's a series of
24 decisions but the first one is numbered 144. It's at the bottom
25 right-hand corner of this page, but it will probably make more sense once
1 the witness sees the title to turn to the next page which has really
2 the -- the information that I'm interested in.
3 Q. This one we're looking at in particular is a decision changing
4 the street names in the town of Beli Manastir. But following this
5 decision are a number of other ones for -- of similar nature for other
6 villages in the Baranja region.
7 Sir, could you tell us what was the purpose of changing the
8 street names in Beli Manastir and other locations? This decision is
9 dated October 1991.
10 A. Well, looking at the old and new street names, it is clear that
11 it was the purpose to remove anything Croatian; although, there are
12 changes without any sense, such as the 8th March Street. Why change
13 that, which is an international holiday? Why change the street names of
14 national heros from the anti-Fascist struggle during the war?
15 But the idea was to free up streets to be named after people
16 known from more recent history, such as Vukasin Soskocanin who got killed
17 in 1991. So practically it was about changing the existing names to
18 names from recent Serbian history, not only recent Serbian history but
19 Serbian history in general.
20 Q. Was there anything particularly offensive about the old names of
21 the streets?
22 A. You could not say that it was particularly offensive. Perhaps
23 Zagrebacka Street was associated to the capital of Croatia.
24 Vladimir Nazor we know from school, Matija Gubec, Ivo Lola Ribar. I'm
25 not going to enumerate everything, but I don't think there is anything
1 that would especially associate Serbs to what the Serbs feared the most,
2 mainly the happenings in the independent state of Croatia.
3 Q. And you mentioned I think it was under number 6, the 8th of
4 March. You said that's an international holiday. What holiday is that?
5 Which holiday are you referring to?
6 A. It's the International Women's Day.
7 Q. And you can tell us -- it was changed to the 7th of July. What's
8 the significance of the 7th of July?
9 A. If I'm not mistaken, it's the day of the insurrection in the
10 former Yugoslavia.
11 Q. And insurrection, can you give us a little more details? Who was
12 involved in the insurrection?
13 A. That was in 1941, the beginning of the Second World War. At
14 least I think so.
15 Q. Was that an important date in Serbian history?
16 A. I suppose so. Because it's on the list of new street names.
17 MR. OLMSTED: Your Honours, may this be admitted into evidence.
18 JUDGE DELVOIE: Admitted and marked.
19 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P2161, Your Honours.
20 MR. OLMSTED:
21 Q. Yesterday - this is at transcript page 5827 - you mentioned that
22 the Beli Manastir Executive Council issued decisions regarding obligatory
23 mobilisation during this second period.
24 Can you tell us, what was the effect of these mobilisation
25 decisions on the non-Serb population in Baranja?
1 A. The mobilisation was governed also by the previous law in
2 Yugoslavia and it continued to apply. Mobilisation was obligatory for
3 all male citizens of age; that is to say, between the ages of 18 and 65.
4 And failure to respond to mobilisation was punishable.
5 In the context of these events, year 1991 had specific weight
6 because, in practice, people who failed to respond to mobilisation calls
7 were considered as traitors, dissidents, people who did not agree with
8 what was going on the ground.
9 Q. So, in practical terms, what would happen to a non-Serb if he
10 refused to mobilise into the local TO?
11 A. That depended on the area. Sometimes that person would be
12 subjected to pressure, or he would be forced to leave the place. It
13 depends on the place.
14 Q. And if he was forced to leave, what would happen to his property?
15 A. The property left behind that the departing person could not take
16 with him would be sealed off and registered and would be given to a
17 refugee who arrived in that territory.
18 MR. OLMSTED: May we have 65 ter 263 on e-court. This is tab 4.
19 And if we can turn to the next page.
20 This is an article from the NIN periodical, entitled "River of No
21 Return," dated August 1991. And if we could turn to page 3 of the
22 English translation?
23 Q. And, sir, I want to draw your attention to the box that is
24 highlighted in yellow. And it states:
25 "In the context of a declaration of an overall mobilisation,
1 Goran Hadzic is reported as saying, 'Those who do not respond can no
2 longer count on having a place in their villages in the future, the
3 people will spontaneously declare them as traitors, and history
4 designated a rigorously bad place for traitors.'"
5 MR. OLMSTED: In the English version this is at the top of the
7 Q. Sir, how does that statement compare to what you understood was
8 the choice faced by the non-Serb population in Baranja?
9 A. As I've said a moment ago, that depended on the particular area,
10 the setting where the people who failed to respond mobilisation calls
11 lived. But I have to emphasise there were two types of mobilisation.
12 One applied to the Territorial Defence. It meant accepting a weapon.
13 And the other possibility was to get mobilised into one of the work units
14 since Baranja is an agricultural region, the events were taking place in
15 Autumn when a lot of manpower is required for field-work, and precisely
16 at that time a large number of non-Serb population left Baranja.
17 One part of the people who did not accept weapons were mobilised
18 into those work units of that were engaged in harvesting. And those who
19 did not want to accept that were gradually pushed out by the community in
20 various ways. Under pressure, they were forced to leave their homes.
21 Q. You -- in your last answer, you said it depended on the areas at
22 issue. Can you tell us, in what areas was this -- this problem, this
23 situation occurring, where the persons were designated as traitors and
24 forced to leave Baranja? Can you give us generally the areas where this
25 would occur in Baranja?
1 A. Such things happened most often in places where, in the month or
2 months before, a considerable change occurred in the ethnic structure.
3 The indigenous population left and was replaced by Serb refugees from all
4 over Croatia who outnumbered the old locals and tried to put pressure on
5 those indigenous non-Serbs who had stayed behind in those areas.
6 MR. OLMSTED: May we have 65 ter 449 on e-court. This was
7 admitted yesterday as P2160. It's tab 14.
8 And if we could go to page 2 of the original; page 3 of the
10 Yes, I'm interested in -- in decision 118.
11 Q. And this is a decision to ban from returning all persons who
12 failed to return to Beli Manastir municipality by 25 September 1991.
13 And if we look under Article 1, it states that this decision was
14 issued pursuant to the appeal of the government of SAO Slavonia, Baranja,
15 Western Srem. What is that a reference is to, that appeal?
16 A. First of all, I would like a small adjustment. I don't think the
17 right decision is shown on the screen now. It's good now. Thank you.
18 Thank you.
19 So this is a decision to ban the return of all persons who failed
20 to return to Beli Manastir municipality by 25 September 1991. Those are
21 people who had left Baranja and they had no particular reason - no
22 objective reason for failing to return - could no longer return after
23 25 September 1991 because it is considered that they had avoided
25 Q. Yes. And we can read the decision ourselves. But my question
1 was actually very specific and I want you to focus on my questions.
2 Article 1 states this decision was issued pursuant to an appeal
3 by the SAO government. And my question to you is what that is a
4 reference to, the appeal. What is that referring to?
5 A. I suppose that this Official Gazette also promulgated appeals to
6 people to return. But that decision was taken on 18 October, and it
7 refers to the 25th September. So it seems to be retroactive, and that
8 seems illogical to me, to make a decision that applies to something that
9 happened a month or a month and a half before.
10 Q. And what would be the -- what is the effect of a retroactive
11 decision in this -- in this context?
12 A. Quite simply, to ban the return of people who had not come back
13 by 25th September without any objective justification. That is to say,
14 without anything that objectively prevented them for -- from returning.
15 At that time, however, there were many workers who temporarily emigrated
16 to Austria, Germany, other places, other countries, and they could
17 objectively not return. But apart from them, it's difficult to
18 understand what this is about.
19 Q. Well, given the circumstances that existed in Baranja at the
20 time, was it safe for non-Serbs to return to Baranja?
21 A. Well, I suppose that those who had fled from Baranja had also, by
22 that time, learned what had happened to their property and their homes
23 into which other refugees had already moved, or they had been looted and
24 devastated, so they could objectively not return to their property.
25 There was also a decision to seize apartments from those who had
1 fled to Croatia or who had a family member in the Croatian armed forces.
2 There was practically not much possibility to return.
3 Q. And I believe yesterday you were describing a number of crimes
4 that were being committed against the non-Serbs. Would that also impact
5 their ability to return?
6 A. Certainly. News of crimes spread very quickly because the
7 Hungarian border was very close and there it was possible for those
8 families to meet; that is to say, for the part of the family who had fled
9 and who had stayed behind to meet. And such news certainly had an
10 adverse effect on people who remained. I believe even their own families
11 pressured them to leave, saying it was better for them for their own
13 MR. OLMSTED: Your Honours, we would like to tender into evidence
14 65 ter 263, which was the article we looked at before this decision.
15 JUDGE DELVOIE: Admitted and marked.
16 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P2162, Your Honours.
17 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
18 MR. OLMSTED:
19 Q. Sir, by the beginning of 1992, could you tell us, based on what
20 you know, what percentage of the pre-conflict non-Serb population was no
21 longer in Baranja? By that stage.
22 A. In my estimate, Baranja had 60, 65, perhaps even 70 per cent of
23 Serb population. In terms of numbers, it was the total population of
24 Baranja was 44-, 45.000, and perhaps 15- to 20.000 remained. That is to
25 say, about a half of the population fled, moved out. Most of that number
1 were Croats and also a part of the Hungarian population.
2 Q. And what was the primary demographics of the non-Serbs who
4 A. Most of those who stayed were Hungarians. In terms of
5 percentage, perhaps 70, 75 per cent of the non-Serb population were
6 Hungarian, and 20 to 25 percent Croats remained.
7 Q. And what -- what age group was primarily represented amongst
8 those who remained?
9 A. Certainly the greatest share of that population were elderly
10 people. People who stayed behind to look after their property.
11 Q. Now, you testified yesterday - this is at transcript page 5796 -
12 that in villages with Crisis Staffs, the houses of the non-Serbs who left
13 Baranja were sealed, and there were efforts to register the personal
14 property inside those houses.
15 Sir, did this adequately protect this property from looting and
16 other crimes?
17 A. No. No, that was simply impossible to put into practice the way
18 it was envisaged.
19 Looting did happen. The houses were, indeed, sealed and the
20 property that was possible to register was registered, but very often the
21 next night the houses would be broken into and what was possible to take
22 was taken. Usually household appliances and other things.
23 But another problem in that particular area was the livestock
24 left unattended. That had to be taken care of urgently.
25 Q. What was the attitude of members of the Crisis Staff regarding
1 these ongoing looting of property?
2 A. There was no firm position as such. In certain areas, the
3 members of the Crisis Staff themselves took advantage of the prevailing
4 situation when it came to the property that was left behind without
6 Q. And what happened to the property that was not looted?
7 A. The property that was not looted was handed over to refugees.
8 The refugees would occupy them.
9 Q. And I want to now turn to the third period of your time-frame
10 that you gave us yesterday, which is beginning around December 1991 and
11 continuing into 1992.
12 And you've already mentioned - and correct me if I'm wrong - that
13 the homes left by the non-Serbs were given to Serb refugees; is that
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Now, you mentioned yesterday that from December 1991 onwards,
17 Serb refugees were coming to Baranja in an organised fashion. This is
18 transcript page 5816. Can you explain what you meant by "organised
20 A. What preceded the arrival of refugees in Baranja was an exodus of
21 the Serbs from Western Slavonia who had found temporarily shelter in
22 Serbia. The representatives of these refugees from Western Slavonia
23 would come to Baranja and apply to representatives of the Crisis Staff.
24 They had lists of inhabitants of their villages and some sort of a list
25 of the properties that they'd left behind in Western Slavonia. Their
1 request was to be given adequate property in exchange for what they left
2 behind. In some cases, some had pulled out their agricultural machinery
3 and wanted to be given farmland. Others had been cattle breeders and
4 wanted to be given livestock. So what they were asking for was to be
5 given the sort of property that would, in a way, correspond to what they
6 had left behind in Western Slavonia.
7 Q. How did these representatives of the Serb refugees know that
8 houses were available in certain villages in Baranja? How did they know
9 to come to Baranja to enter into these kind of negotiations?
10 A. It was no secret that there were many vacant housing units in
11 Baranja. This was publicised in the media. They also communicated one
12 with another. There were individuals coming from all across Croatia to
13 Baranja because they had relatives or friends there. During this period
14 of time, information spread very fast. It was in everybody's interest to
15 try and find adequate accommodation and soon for their nearest and
16 dearest, to put them up close to where they lived. As far as I know,
17 they were put up in physical education gymnasiums in Serbia and that was
18 the sort of condition that they had to live in.
19 MR. OLMSTED: May we have on e-court 65 ter 299. This is tab 11.
20 And I'm interested in decision number 66, which I believe the bulk of it
21 is, on the original, on the right side, upper right side.
22 And this is a decision appointing -- we need to turn to page 2 in
23 the English. And this is a decision appointing a commission to assign
24 flats and houses for temporary use of the municipality of Beli Manastir,
25 and it's dated 14 September 1991.
1 Q. First of all, can you tell us just generally who are the members
2 of this commission. Do you recognise the names?
3 A. I recognise them all. They were people of good repute in their
4 respective communities, and this was probably one of the criteria that
5 brought them to this list.
6 Q. Were they members of a particular political party?
7 A. I would say that most of them were SDS members. Under 6, we have
8 a representative of the Hungarian people. I'm not sure if he belonged to
9 any of the parties.
10 Q. Are the rest Serbs?
11 A. Yes, the rest are Serbs.
12 Q. And I see under number 3, Dragisa Radic. What position did he
13 later hold?
14 A. On his departure from Baranja, after reintegration, Dragisa Radic
15 was a member of a Red Beret unit.
16 Q. And to whom did that Red Beret unit report?
17 A. The Red Beret unit was the operative unit of the state security
18 of Serbia.
19 Q. And could you enlighten us, what was the purpose of this
20 commission vis-a-vis the local Crisis Staffs. You've already told us the
21 involvement of the local Crisis Staffs in the distribution of houses to
22 Serb refugees. What purpose did this commission serve with
23 representatives from various villages?
24 A. Given that this is a municipal commission, it means that
25 representatives of larger settlements in Baranja, that's to say,
1 representatives of their Crisis Staffs, were supposed to draw up a list
2 of vacant dwellings in their own respective locations and to compile all
3 that information so that one would know the number of available
4 properties overall in Baranja. And, on the basis of the information
5 contained here, refugees were supposed to be directed to the various
6 areas as indicated by the statistical data of vacant dwellings.
7 MR. OLMSTED: Your Honours, may this be admitted into evidence?
8 JUDGE DELVOIE: Admitted and marked.
9 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P2163.
10 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
11 MR. OLMSTED:
12 Q. Did the Serb refugees arriving in Baranja have to pay a fee for
13 their houses or were they given to them free?
14 A. Officially no fee was charged. The properties were handed over
15 without any fee.
16 Q. What about unofficially?
17 A. Unofficially there was always a possibility that they may be
18 given something that was of a higher quality than the property that they
19 had left behind, but that had to be paid for.
20 Q. Do you recall what the going rate was?
21 A. I don't remember the specific sum. But houses with office or
22 shop premises, houses that had special furnishings, stores, or any sort
23 of work-shops would be charged in hundreds of German marks, all the way
24 up to, say, 2.000 German marks.
25 Q. And what was the impact of the arriving Serb refugees on TO
2 A. There was a positive development on that score. What this meant
3 was that the rotation of mobilised personnel became much easier. In the
4 early days, there was high pressure because a person would be mobilised
5 for five days and then would have five days off.
6 Now, as the number of people present grew, so did the available
7 personnel increase. So you could now have a third rotation, a third
8 shift, which meant that you could be off for a longer period of time.
9 Q. How did the Serb refugees arriving in Baranja treat the non-Serb
10 population who had remained in Baranja?
11 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Zivanovic.
12 MR. ZIVANOVIC: I think that's asked and answered. More than --
13 than once yesterday.
14 MR. OLMSTED: Your Honours, nothing comes to mind regarding -- I
15 know I didn't ask this specific question before. I'd have to -- if I
16 could get a reference, I could look into it. But otherwise --
17 MR. ZIVANOVIC: No, I'll not give you a reference. You can
18 repeat if you like, many times. I do not oppose.
19 MR. OLMSTED: All right.
20 Q. And, sir, perhaps you answered this yesterday, but in an
21 abundance of caution may I ask you again, at least, how did the Serb
22 refugees arriving in Baranja treat the non-Serb population?
23 A. I don't remember what was said yesterday, but I did say a moment
24 ago that in those communities where the local population was predominant,
25 they tried to adapt. Those areas where the refugees became the majority
1 were problematic. The makeup of a settlement would change in one month.
2 You would have 20 per cent of locals and then 80 per cent of refugees.
3 These refugees would, in turn, have other members of their family who
4 didn't manage to find proper accommodation who had left their home in
5 Bosnia and were now in Serbia, and they were doing their best to find
6 accommodation for them. And, of course, it turned out that it was the
7 most practical solution for them to bring them along to the settlement
8 where they were already. So those locations where there was a steep
9 change in the makeup of the population and where the refugees became the
10 majority, specific problems emerged.
11 Q. And can you just generally give us an idea of what problems
13 A. Murders were committed. Once a murder was committed, soon
14 thereafter you would have two or three houses emptied. People were
15 afraid and would leave.
16 Q. I want to talk about Darda now for a moment. What was happening
17 to the non-Serb population in Darda?
18 A. Darda is the second largest settlement in Baranja. Its makeup
19 was 50-50. 50 per cent Serbs; 50 per cent non-Serbs. Most of the
20 non-Serbs left Darda in the early days of the conflict. Some of the
21 non-Serbs who had stayed behind were exposed to mistreatment and even
22 murder. Most frequently, unfortunately, the entire families were killed
23 in order to get hold of their property.
24 This was the criterion applied: Who -- those who were better
25 off, who were wealthier, were in greater danger. As I said, everybody
1 carried weapons and uniforms. People were apprehensive and distrustful
2 of everyone. And I mean the non-Serbs were. Fire was opened at windows.
3 There was gun-fire in the street. Explosives were planted. And those
4 who endured this sort of pressure would then suffer the worst. That's to
5 say, execution.
6 Q. And during which period were these murders occurring?
7 A. Since the outbreak of the conflict in 1991 up until 1992. So in
8 the span of these several months. That was when these occurrences were
9 at their highest.
10 Q. Did they continue to occur into 1992 as well?
11 A. Yes, to a lesser degree. But it did happen in 1992.
12 Q. And who was committing these murders?
13 A. They were people who wore police uniforms.
14 Q. And were these persons members of police stations?
15 A. For the most part, they were members of the police station. We
16 did say that Darda had its own police station.
17 Q. And you mentioned that families, whole families, were targeted.
18 Can you remember the last names of some of the families, just so that we
19 have an idea?
20 A. Well, Karnik [phoen], Iles, Drakula. There were perhaps four or
21 five families who were killed this way.
22 Q. And were these sorts of murders of non-Serbs by policemen limited
23 to Darda, or did they occur in other villages in Baranja?
24 A. Murders were committed in all the various villages, but they did
25 not even come close to the frequency of these occurrences in Darda.
1 Q. Could you give us some examples of families outside of Darda that
2 were targeted? I think you might have mentioned some families yesterday,
3 but I don't recall.
4 A. It would so happen in Grabovac that people would be taken away
5 and disappear, only to be found dead later on. It happened in
6 Beli Manastir, Dubosevica, Jagodnjak, Knezevi Vinogradi. There would be
7 family members or entire families. So it happened in many locations and
8 it would be -- one would be hard-pressed to find a place where it did not
9 happen. But, as I said, the frequency and the number of victims did not
10 even remotely come close to the incidents registered in Darda.
11 Q. Do you recall a murder in Jagodnjak?
12 A. Yes. There were murders in Jagodnjak as well. Father and son by
13 the name of Zorcec were killed. The Cicak family was killed in
14 Karanac. It was the father and three sons. So there were such
16 Q. And the Cicak family was that -- what ethnicity were they?
17 A. They were Croats.
18 MR. OLMSTED: May we have on e-court 65 ter 5182. This is
19 tab 47. And we only have an English version of this, but if we could
20 turn to page 4. This is an UN CIVPOL report dated 12 June 1992, and I'm
21 interested in what's written under item number 6.
22 Q. It mentions that in Jagodnjak at 2230 hours on 10 June, one
23 Zorcec, Slavko, a Croat, was shot. The local police attributed the death
24 to drunkenness, et cetera, et cetera. Is that the murder you were
25 referring to?
1 A. Yes. Yes, I meant Mr. Zorcec.
2 Q. And who was the perpetrator?
3 A. Mr. Mile Milovanovic, aka Bepi, was the perpetrator.
4 Q. And where was he employed?
5 A. For a while, he was trying to work for the DB centre in
6 Beli Manastir. Perhaps he even did work for them, but, if that was the
7 case, then only for a short period of time, some ten days. But I think
8 he was a member of the reserve force of the police. That's to say, of
9 the SUP, Beli Manastir.
10 Q. And what happened to him after this crime?
11 A. Unfortunately, nothing. He was still a free man.
12 Q. To your knowledge, were any of the police perpetrators of -- of
13 the murders we've discussed so far ever held accountable for these
15 A. I think that it was only after the reintegration that certain
16 individuals were prosecuted for their misdeeds.
17 Q. You've already testified about the structure of the Beli Manastir
18 SUP. Can you tell us: Hierarchically, who was the superior of the SUP?
19 A. Above the secretary, who is at the top of SUP, is the minister of
20 the interior.
21 Q. And ... I'll leave it at that.
22 MR. OLMSTED: If we could have 65 ter 6087. This is tab 61.
23 Q. What we have in front of us is a regular combat report from
24 January 1992. And if we look under item number 2, it describes a meeting
25 between OG Baranja and SAO SBWS ministers to discuss problems in the
1 Beli Manastir SUP. First of all, what was OG Baranja?
2 A. It stands for operation group. At that point, it was the highest
3 command of the JNA present in the area.
4 Q. Now, it further states that the SAO minister of the MUP, instead
5 of relieving of their duties those who are most responsible for the
6 situation and holding them accountable, only implemented some personnel
7 changes, and then it gives as an example that the secretary of the SUP
8 Beli Manastir was moved to the post of chef de cabinet of the SAO. Was
9 that the situation with regard to personnel changes in the SUP?
10 A. Personnel changes happened. As stated here, the first secretary
11 of SUP was transferred and replaced by Mr. Vranic who was previously a
12 chief. What this states is that practically a new post was created for
13 the secretary. Assistant minister did not exist as a post up to that
14 point. This was done in order to find a job for the former secretary.
15 These sort of rotations occurred quite frequently at a later date as
17 Q. If we look at the bottom of page 1 of the original, we have to
18 turn to page 2 for the English translation. The report mentions that
19 Milan Jaric was in custody. Do you recall why Mr. Jaric was in custody
20 at that time? This is January 1992.
21 A. I do not, in detail, why he was taken into custody, but he was
22 the commander of the special police unit at the SUP of Beli Manastir.
23 Q. What crimes was he involved in that you're aware of?
24 A. Well, Mr. Jaric was involved in shady dealings with cars. When
25 the Croatian police vacated the SUP building and left, he went into the
1 room where the driving licence blanks and stamps were held, so you could
2 go to him to get your vehicle registered and get a driving licence
4 Q. Was he convicted of any crimes in the 1991/1993 period?
5 A. I don't remember that he was convicted.
6 MR. OLMSTED: Your Honours, may this be admitted into evidence?
7 JUDGE DELVOIE: Admitted and marked.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P2164, Your Honours.
9 MR. OLMSTED:
10 Q. You've mentioned Grabovac a couple of times yesterday and today.
11 What was the pre-conflict ethnic makeup of Grabovac?
12 A. The non-Serb population in Grabovac was about 90 to -- 85 to
13 90 per cent. There were few Serbs, very few Serb homes.
14 Q. And could you tell us, by 1992, what percentage of the villagers
15 remained in Grabovac, the original villagers?
16 A. Between 5 and 10 per cent.
17 Q. You testified earlier today - this is at page 19 - that in
18 Grabovac people would be taken away and disappear and found dead later
19 on. I want to ask you some questions regarding a particular incident.
20 But if could you --
21 MR. OLMSTED: If we could go into private session, Your Honour.
22 I think this has to be led that way.
23 JUDGE DELVOIE: Private session please.
24 [Private session]
11 Pages 5861-5865 redacted. Private session.
18 [Open session]
19 MR. OLMSTED: I would now like to play you a video-clip. This is
20 65 ter 4819.1. It's tab 36. I'm sorry.
21 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
22 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
23 MR. OLMSTED: I apologise. It's 65 ter 4819.1. And we will cue
24 it to 2 hours, 7 minutes, and 20 seconds.
25 [Video-clip played]
1 "THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] In this connection Hadzic
2 emphasised that this solution would be best reached by recognising the
3 Republic of Serbian Krajina which has all the elements of statehood.
4 Also journalists were informed that democratic elections in Krajina would
5 take place by the end of this year. Talking in favour of the Krajisnik
6 struggle, Hadzic stressed that it was principally utter respect of the
7 principle of the people's right to self-determination. Answering the
8 claims that war crimes being committed in Krajina, especially in Baranja,
9 Hadzic said they were a necessity of an ethnic clash but the government
10 of Republic of Serbian Krajina undertook strict measures against
11 individuals who committed the crimes under the cover of a police uniform.
12 According to Hadzic they terrorised not only Croats but Serbs as well, so
13 their actions could not be qualified as an ethnic clash and perpetrators
14 would soon be arrested and tried. On this occasion, Hadzic also
15 clarified his statement that agitated the public in Serbia by saying that
16 he verbatim stated only that there was a minor group of Serbs in Serbia
17 who wanted Krajina to stay within Croatia and he called them Ustashas
18 because of that, not thinking that however --"
19 MR. OLMSTED: That's fine. That's more than enough.
20 Q. I want to return to the statements that reported that Hadzic said
21 regarding war crimes being committed, especially in Baranja. And Hadzic
22 is reported as saying that the RSK undertook strict measures against
23 individuals who committed a crime under cover of a police uniform. Was
24 the fact that the police were committing crimes in Baranja widely known
25 by the public?
1 A. I think so. I don't think it was such a big secret.
2 Q. And was it the case that the RSK took strict measures against
3 police perpetrators in Baranja in the 1991 to 1993 time-period?
4 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Zivanovic.
5 MR. ZIVANOVIC: I did not see from the video that it was period
6 1991/1992 -- 1991.
7 MR. OLMSTED: Your Honours, I gave him the entire indictment
8 period so I think that should cover it.
9 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Okay.
10 JUDGE DELVOIE: Please proceed.
11 MR. OLMSTED: Yes.
12 Q. We don't have the exact date of this video footage, but can you
13 tell us during the 1991 through 1993 period, sir, whether the RSK took
14 any strict measures against police perpetrators?
15 A. It's hard to say what strict measures are. There was a law, and
16 I believe that legal measures were not taken all the way. As I said
17 before, the police would come out on the crime scene. They would
18 identify the murder weapon and the victim, and the procedure was carried
19 out according to the law to some extent. But in most of those cases,
20 criminal reports were filed against unidentified perpetrators.
21 Now what was done later on to identify the perpetrators, I don't
22 know. And I don't seem to remember that there were any prosecutions or
23 convictions for those crimes. At least not until 1994, which is when the
24 first case was handed -- handled in a serious way and prosecuted.
25 MR. OLMSTED: Your Honours, may this video-clip be admitted into
2 JUDGE DELVOIE: Admitted and marked.
3 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P2166.
4 MR. OLMSTED: I have two more questions or a maximum three
6 Can we go into private session.
7 JUDGE DELVOIE: Private session, please.
8 [Private session]
7 [Open session]
8 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
9 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Witness, we will revert to closed session for
10 our first break. We will be back at 11.00. The court usher will escort
11 you out of the courtroom.
12 Closed session, please.
13 [Closed session]
2 [Open session]
3 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
4 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
5 Yes, Mr. Zivanovic.
6 MR. ZIVANOVIC:
7 Q. [Interpretation] Let me repeat what I said now that we are in
8 public session.
9 My name is Zoran Zivanovic, and I'm Defence counsel for
10 Mr. Goran Hadzic in this case.
11 I will have several questions for you. However, before I start,
12 kindly answer my question only if it relates to something you experienced
13 and observed. Avoid expressing your conclusions, opinions, et cetera. I
14 am telling you this to shorten, perhaps, your examination. As a
15 preliminary remark.
16 Up until the war, you lived in Baranja; right? Tell me, please:
17 Before the war, you said that there was a party called Party for
18 Democratic Change; right?
19 A. SDP.
20 Q. Its president was Ivica Racan, right?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Was this a party previously known as the League of Communists of
23 Croatia and then just before the elections, it was renamed party for
24 democratic change?
25 A. Well, you could put it that way, that, in fact, the political
1 programme of the SDP was that what was previously the League of
3 Q. Were you a member of that party, that's to say, the League of
4 Communists of Croatia and later the SDP?
5 A. I was a member of the League of Communists but not of the SDP.
6 Q. Did you register out of its membership?
7 A. Can we move into private session for this answer?
8 JUDGE DELVOIE: Private session, please.
9 [Private session]
16 [Open session]
17 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
18 JUDGE DELVOIE: And, Mr. Witness, if you feel uncomfortable with
19 the -- with the question in open session and with the answer, please tell
20 us, as you did -- as you did just now.
21 Please continue, Mr. Zivanovic.
22 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Thank you, Mr. President.
23 Q. [Interpretation] You said that the large majority of votes at the
24 first multi-party elections in Croatia was gained by the SDP; right?
25 A. Well, I didn't say a large majority but a majority nevertheless.
1 And that was because of the politicians who were known from before, such
2 as Ivica Racan.
3 Q. Tell me, was the basic difference in the political agenda of the
4 HDZ, on the one hand, and the SDP on the other, in the fact that the SDP
5 was in favour of Croatia remaining within Yugoslavia, unlike the HDZ, the
6 part of whose agenda was to leave Yugoslavia?
7 A. I think that was the most essential difference.
8 Q. There was a referendum held in Croatia in 1990, and as far as I'm
9 aware of the results of its outcome, most of the inhabitants of Baranja
10 voted in favour of remaining within Yugoslavia; is that right?
11 A. Yes.
12 MR. ZIVANOVIC: There is no answer in the transcript.
13 JUDGE DELVOIE: Now it's there.
14 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. When I say that most of the inhabitants of the area voted in
16 favour of staying within Yugoslavia, it means that also the non-Serbs
17 voted for this option, i.e., Croats, Hungarians, other ethnic minorities,
18 who resided in Baranja.
19 A. I agree with you.
20 Q. Do you recall if at any point in time the SDP changed its policy
21 and declared to be in favour of what was previously the essential
22 difference as opposed to the HDZ agenda, that's to say, that they started
23 advocating the policy of leaving Yugoslavia?
24 A. Since I wasn't an active member of the party, I don't recall that
25 issue you mention in your question.
1 Q. Do you recall perhaps the media reporting about it? After all,
2 it was not a secret. It was publicised in the media.
3 A. I don't remember.
4 Q. Tell me, do you remember whether the then-HDZ president
5 Franjo Tudjman spoke of any changes in the ethnic makeup of Croatia in
6 terms of the number of the Serbs? Did he speak about it in the media?
7 A. I think that there was media coverage that carried similar
9 Q. According to the information I have, he said that about 5
10 per cent of Serbs would remain in Croatia. Do you recall this?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Do you recall that at the time in Eastern Slavonia, Ustasha
13 formations emerged which openly carried the symbol with the letter U?
14 A. I know that there was media coverage of similar formations
15 carrying the Ustasha insignia.
16 Q. Did you hear of murders of Serbs, if any?
17 A. Yes, I did hear of Serbs having been murdered, especially in the
18 area closer to where I was. That's to say, in the Osijek area.
19 Q. Do you recall roughly who these Serbs were? Were they
20 politically active opponents?
21 A. I have no knowledge of their political activity. At any rate,
22 they were esteemed and Serbs of good repute in Osijek. They were medical
23 doctors, lawyers.
24 Q. [Microphone not activated]
25 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
1 JUDGE DELVOIE: Microphone, please.
2 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Sorry.
3 Q. [Interpretation] Can you tell me what sort of impact all these
4 developments had? And I mean the murders that we referred to, the
5 emergence of individuals carrying Ustasha insignia, President Tudjman's
6 statement that the number of Serbs in Croatia would decrease? What sort
7 of impact did all this have on the population in Baranja?
8 A. Well, it made them unsettled, and it -- it was quite unsettling
9 for the Serbs.
10 Q. Were there individuals who moved out of the area?
11 A. I don't know personally, but I think that there were individual
12 cases. And we're talking about mid-1991.
13 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
14 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. You spoke of the authorities that existed before the war, and
16 that's to say, mid-1991. You mentioned local communes, Crisis Staff --
17 Staffs, Territorial Defence, and the police.
18 Let's deal with the police first. The police which existed up
19 until that conflict between the reservists of the Croatian MUP, to put it
20 that way, and the citizens, the Serbs in Beli Manastir, can you explain
21 to us first how -- why this conflict between the Serbs came about and why
22 was it exactly with the reservists that they clashed rather than the
23 active force of the Croatian MUP?
24 A. Unless I'm mistaken, I did speak about it earlier on. The
25 reservists tried to gain access to Beli Manastir from the direction of
1 Osijek, but they were not members of the reserve force who hailed from
2 the area. They were from elsewhere in Croatia. They were there to
3 assist the regular forces of the Beli Manastir MUP.
4 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
5 JUDGE DELVOIE: Microphone, Mr. Zivanovic.
6 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Sorry.
7 Q. [Interpretation] Can you tell me what sort of assistance did the
8 MUP in Beli Manastir require so that it was necessary to call on the
9 reserve forces?
10 A. I have to present my opinion now, and you did tell me that I
11 should try and avoid it.
12 Here goes. Some of the localities around Beli Manastir were
13 already taken by the Serbs but not Beli Manastir, so it was to be
14 expected that the same sort of developments that were seen elsewhere
15 would follow in Beli Manastir. This was the security assessment on the
16 part of the MUP who decided to reinforce their basic manpower to prevent
17 this turn of events to -- from happening in Beli Manastir as well.
18 Q. Did the Serb population suspect that these reservists would be
19 engaged for some sort of offensive action against them?
20 A. I don't think so. Since there was a rather strong formation
21 stationed in Beli Manastir, it could not be expected from the MUP to
22 mount any -- or, rather, since there was a rather strong JNA formation
23 stationed in Beli Manastir, one did not expect the MUP to engage in any
24 larger action.
25 Q. In other words, the JNA unit which was sufficiently strong in
1 Beli Manastir would have been able to prevent that conflict. Did I
2 understand you correctly?
3 A. Yes, you did. That is what happened at first. Upon the outbreak
4 of the conflict, the JNA unit positioned itself as a buffer zone and put
5 an end to it.
6 Q. I will now move to other structures: The local communes,
7 Territorial Defence, and Crisis Staffs. First of all, tell me, did such
8 structures exist in every populated area in Baranja?
9 A. No, not in each and every one. There were larger places and
10 blue-collar settlements with 30 to 50 inhabitants, and the latter tended
11 to -- to centre around a larger place.
12 Q. Did each larger populated area have these three structures:
13 Territorial Defence, local communes, and Crisis Staffs?
14 A. No, they didn't have the Territorial Defence because it was at
15 the level of Beli Manastir. They did have local communes and the
16 Crisis Staff as envisaged by the statute of the local commune.
17 MR. OLMSTED: Your Honours, could Defence counsel provide a
18 time-frame that he's talking about it? Is this before the conflict? Or
19 is this during the conflict that he's referring to?
20 MR. ZIVANOVIC: I refer to the -- to the -- the time prior the
22 Q. [Interpretation] I'm interested in this because so far I have not
23 had occasion to hear that Crisis Staffs existed. Are you quite sure
24 about this? Do you know that the Crisis Staffs existed or is it just an
25 assumption of yours?
1 A. Crisis Staffs existed and they were envisaged by the statute of
2 each local commune. The purpose of establishing Crisis Staffs is for
3 them to operate in crisis situation, such as natural disasters. The
4 statute even stipulated that the president of the local commune is, at
5 the same time, chairman of the Crisis Staff.
6 Q. And each local commune had its own council as the leading body.
7 A. That's correct. The council of the local commune was headed by
8 the president of the local commune.
9 Q. Were members of the Crisis Staff, in fact, members of the council
10 of the local commune?
11 A. That was possible, but not necessarily. Members of the fire
12 brigade could also be members of the Crisis Staff. Other people. It all
13 depended on the territory where the local commune was located.
14 Q. You said that the JNA already had one unit stationed in Baranja
15 and that the 36th Subotica Brigade arrived after the events at Plitvice;
16 more previously, Borovo Selo. Tell me, how much after that event did
17 they arrive?
18 A. I can't tell you the date, but certain parts of the
19 36th Subotica Brigade did arrive. Several armoured vehicles deployed
20 around the bridge at Batina on our side, the Baranja side.
21 Q. Do you know who commanded that unit?
22 A. The commander of the 36th Subotica Brigade was Colonel Jovanovic.
23 Q. That's a very common last name. Do you remember his first name?
24 A. No.
25 Q. Do you remember any of the senior officers in that brigade?
1 A. I do, but I cannot tell you now the establishment of the brigade.
2 It was Stojan Mladenovic who came to Baranja in the rank of captain first
3 class. There was also Lieutenant-Colonel Koca Milovanovic, the security
4 organ of that unit.
5 If I made an effort, I could perhaps remember a few more names.
6 Q. You said that the SDS political party was active in Baranja in
7 that time in 1991 and 1992. You enumerated the people who led that
8 party, but you were not a member, were you?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Do you know the organisational structure of that party?
11 A. Perhaps roughly.
12 Q. When you spoke about the people who led that party, let me ask
13 you specifically. When you were talking about Vida Mandic, did you mean
14 that she was a leader in the Municipal Board of the SDS party in Baranja?
15 A. Yes. I was talking about the municipality of Beli Manastir.
16 Q. Do you know who was at the higher level of that party?
17 A. Some sort of Presidency or Executive Board.
18 Q. Do you know that a board similar to the one in Baranja existed in
20 A. I suppose the party was organised in all the towns in the same
22 Q. And that these two boards, the one in Vukovar and the one in
23 Beli Manastir, stood on an equal footing. I mean Municipal Boards.
24 A. I agree. A Municipal Board from whichever municipality is equal
25 to any other Municipal Board.
1 Q. Do you know who the president of the board was in Vukovar?
2 A. I don't know.
3 Q. Do you know if somebody from the Baranja SDS was part of the top
4 leadership of the SDS?
5 A. If there was a logic to that representation, there should have
6 been somebody.
7 Q. And do you know who that person was?
8 A. No, not by name.
9 Q. Do you know who the president of the party was?
10 A. You don't mean the Municipal Board, you mean the party?
11 Q. Yes.
12 A. Mr. Hadzic.
13 Q. When was he president of the Serbian Democratic Party?
14 A. When I started seeing him on TV, that was just before
15 September/October 1991. That's when I first started noticing him in the
17 Q. Did he hold any other position, apart from that one?
18 A. I really don't know what you're driving at.
19 Q. Apart from being president of the SDS, as you claim when you
20 started noticing him in September/October 1991, did he hold any other
21 position at all?
22 A. I don't know.
23 MR. ZIVANOVIC: May we -- may we move into private session,
25 JUDGE DELVOIE: Private session, please.
1 [Private session]
11 Pages 5882-5883 redacted. Private session.
18 [Open session]
19 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
20 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
21 Q. Are you aware that shortly after the events we've just discussed,
22 during an attack at Balma [phoen], four members of the Territorial
23 Defence were killed, according to the information I have?
24 A. I'm not familiar with that name, Balma. What is that related to?
25 Q. I myself had suspicions about the accuracy of the name, but I
1 found it in one of your earlier statements, or one of your earlier
2 testimonies. This was at least how it was recorded in the transcript and
3 quite possibly it was misrecorded. But were you aware of an action
4 following shortly after the events that we discussed in private session
5 where four members of the Territorial Defence were killed?
6 A. I think that it related to a place called Bolman since this was
7 the separation line along the Drava river. Now, from the separation line
8 itself which was, in fact, an embankment as part of the defences -- flood
9 defences system, next to that embankment there was a wooded area which
10 wasn't under anybody's control, so it was quite possible for individuals
11 to traverse this very difficult terrain and to reach the area, the front
12 line, and the place where the incident happened.
13 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
14 JUDGE DELVOIE: Microphone, please.
15 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Sorry.
16 Q. [Interpretation] Can you tell us who perpetrated the murders, the
17 killings, you've just discussed as well as the ones we discussed
18 previously? Who was responsible for it?
19 A. The territory was best known to the inhabitants who fled the area
20 and joined the Croatian armed forces. They would occasionally come back.
21 So they would be either the inhabitants of that particular village or a
22 neighbouring village.
23 Q. These were villagers who joined the Croatian armed forces; right?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. [Microphone not activated]
1 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
2 JUDGE DELVOIE: Microphone, please.
3 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. I also found this piece of information. That, on the 14th of
5 September, 1991, a sabotage group killed two unarmed workers who were
6 busy working on the Jelen farm. Do you recall that?
7 A. Yes, I'm familiar with that. I did say a moment ago that there
8 were several such incidents which was due to the specific configuration
9 of the terrain. If the level of the Drava river was low, then one could
10 simply cross it. There were quite a few such incidents.
11 Q. What sort of impact did these incidents and sabotage raids and
12 killings have on the Serb population?
13 A. Well, again, I have to relate my opinion. It turned out that not
14 enough caution was exercised on the front line because all the sabotage
15 actions and incidents that happened took place in the immediate vicinity
16 of our front line. These saboteurs would come as close as 20 metres to
17 our line. So obviously those manning the front line did not exercise
18 enough caution --
19 THE INTERPRETER: Can the witness repeat what he just said.
20 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Zivanovic, could the witness please repeat
21 what he just said.
22 Mr. Witness, could you --
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As they would be going to take up
24 their shift, members of the reserve force would take along all the
25 utensils that they needed to cook food. Basically they would comport
1 themselves on the front line as if they had gone for a picnic.
2 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. I don't think you understand my question. My question was what
4 sort of impact these incidents had on the Serb population as a whole?
5 Was this something that the Serb population was aware of at the time?
6 A. The population was aware of these incidents. The command was
7 aware of it. There was a ban on bringing food and alcohol to the front
8 line. The response of the population, of course, was a major one
9 whenever they heard that somebody got killed in the process.
10 Q. The two individuals we mentioned in private session, they were
11 killed next to a barbecue; is that right?
12 A. Well, I can't be specific about them, but there were such cases.
13 There was one case where a vehicle hit a land-mine that was laid during
14 the time that they spent at the front line. So as they were heading to
15 the front line, it wasn't there, but it was there on their way back.
16 Q. I wonder what the reason is that you should avoid answering my
17 question and speak about things I don't ask you about. I asked you about
18 the incidents. I asked you about the total of eight people who were
19 killed. Which of them were killed next to a barbecue.
20 A. Can we do this in closed session.
21 MR. ZIVANOVIC: May we move into private session, please.
22 JUDGE DELVOIE: Private session, please.
23 [Private session]
11 Pages 5888-5891 redacted. Private session.
2 [Open session]
3 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
4 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thanks.
5 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. What happened to those who surrendered?
7 A. They surrendered to the JNA unit, and that JNA unit put them up
8 in that installation at Beli Manastir, and I believe an exchange was
10 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
11 JUDGE DELVOIE: Microphone.
12 MR. ZIVANOVIC: May we see exhibit number 5805. Page 104.
13 Q. [Interpretation] This is your testimony in the Slobodan --
14 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we move into private session.
15 JUDGE DELVOIE: Private session, please.
16 [Private session]
11 Pages 5893-5894 redacted. Private session.
12 [Closed session]
25 [Open session]
1 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
2 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
3 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Should I repeat previous question and answer?
4 JUDGE DELVOIE: It's -- it's not necessary, I think. But if you
6 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. Your testimony here was that there was a civilian and military
8 section in these Crisis Staffs.
9 My question is this: Was that Crisis Staffs from the -- Crisis
10 Staff from the earlier period divided into two separate structures, or
11 were there only two departments to one -- what was essentially one
13 A. As the civilian/military structures within Crisis Staff became
14 separate, what resulted from that was the existence of two separate
15 staffs with their separate purviews.
16 Q. Can you clarify this? I'm not sure I've understood your answer
17 fully. In Serbian, I mean.
18 A. This is how it was. The Crisis Staff, as such, ceased to exist
19 at the point where it was divided into a section dealing with military
20 issues and another section dealing with civilian issues. In other words,
21 one staff was divided into two separate staffs that continued to exist.
22 Q. What was the difference in the competence of a civilian -- of a
23 Crisis Staff dealing with civilian affairs in a locality and the
24 competence of a local commune which would be addressing these same issues
1 A. The local commune was divided into a section dealing with
2 civilian affairs, and the Territorial Defence, i.e., a military section.
3 Basically they were two staffs within a single local commune. The
4 president of the local commune was essentially the president of the
5 civilian section of the staff.
6 Q. Was there a difference in their purview?
7 A. Yes, there was. The documentation, such as registry offices,
8 registration of births, et cetera, this was within the purview of the
9 local commune and it continued to use its own stamps for that purpose,
10 whereas the Crisis Staff had its own set of stamps.
11 Q. Was there a difference between the military Crisis Staff, as it
12 were, and the Territorial Defence Staff in the same locality? Was there
13 a difference in terms of their competence?
14 A. I don't understand the military Crisis Staff and the TO Staff.
15 These structures did not operate simultaneously. The Crisis Staff became
16 the TO Staff and the civilian section. All the affairs related to the
17 army and mobilisation were addressed by the TO Staff in a given locality.
18 Q. In other words, the military Crisis Staff was the same structure
19 as would be a TO Staff in that place.
20 A. Yes, you could put it that way.
21 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Private session, please.
22 JUDGE DELVOIE: Private session, please.
23 [Private session]
11 Pages 5899-5914 redacted. Private session.
18 [Open session]
19 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
20 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
22 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
23 Q. If that was the objective, to have as many people as possible
24 released, they could have exchanged other individuals. It wasn't
25 necessary to dispatch only those because among them there were those who
1 were sent out but were not exchanged and those were exchanged. At any
2 rate, if that was the goal, to have as many people exchanged as possible,
3 they could have gathered other people?
4 A. I told you that this was an opinion of mine that I was stating.
5 I'm not stating for a fact that this was the objective.
6 Q. Do you know which unit transported these people from
7 Beli Manastir to Borovo? Which unit escorted them?
8 A. It was a unit. Possibly members of the intervention detachment
9 of the security station.
10 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Zivanovic, I'm perhaps giving you the
11 impression that I'm harassing you, but now that we're in open session,
12 you should shut down your microphone when the witness answers.
13 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Sorry.
14 May we move again into private session, please.
15 JUDGE DELVOIE: Private session.
16 [Private session]
11 Pages 5917-5918 redacted. Private session.
6 [Open session]
7 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
8 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
9 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
10 Q. Yesterday you mentioned that Borivoje Dobrokes was head of the TO
11 in Baranja. Was he ever in the JNA?
12 A. Yes. He was a retired JNA officer, and he used to occupy the
13 position of the TO commander in Beli Manastir before.
14 Q. What was their relationship, if any, between the TO Staff of
15 Baranja and the Yugoslav People's Army?
16 A. I believe there was a very good relationship there.
17 Q. And how did it manifest itself?
18 A. In mutual co-operation. All these unfortunate events and
19 incidents brought them closer together and strengthened their relations.
20 Look, the JNA, with its command, was the largest force in the
21 territory, and even the TO had to be answerable, according to
22 establishment, to the highest command, which was that of the JNA.
23 JUDGE DELVOIE: Microphone.
24 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. In other words, the Territorial Defence had to execute orders, if
1 any were given, by the JNA?
2 A. I agree.
3 Q. Before the conflict -- the armed conflict broke out, weapons were
4 removed from the existing TO depots and taken by the JNA. I'm not sure
5 in which case you said that.
6 A. The TO arsenal was kept in the municipal building of
7 Beli Manastir, and it would have been easy to remove it, if anyone wanted
9 I'm not sure about the amount of that arsenal, but the weapons
10 were transferred to the permanent border garrison of the JNA.
11 JUDGE DELVOIE: [Previous translation continues] ...
12 Mr. Zivanovic, this seems to me -- this seems to me a new topic. Would
13 that be an appropriate moment?
14 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Yes. Yes, it is. Thank you.
15 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
16 Mr. Witness, this is the end of today's hearing. Your testimony
17 is not brought to an end yet, so we'll see you back tomorrow morning at
18 9.00. And, in the meantime, you're not released as a witness. You can't
19 talk to any of the parties, and you can't discuss your testimony with
20 anyone. Thank you very much.
21 Once we are in closed session, we -- the court usher will escort
22 you out of the courtroom.
23 Closed session, please.
24 [Closed session]
24 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.01 p.m.,
25 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 19th day of
1 June, 2013, at 9.00 a.m.