Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 33375

 1                           Thursday, 7 February 2013

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.08 a.m.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Good morning, everyone.  Before we begin today,

 6     there's a matter that I'd like to deal with in private session.

 7             Could the Chamber move into private session.

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Page 33376











11 Pages 33376-33377 redacted. Private session.















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24                           [Open session]

25             JUDGE KWON:  Unless there's any other matter to be raised, we'll

Page 33379

 1     bring in the next witness.

 2             Yes, Mr. Tieger.

 3             MR. TIEGER:  Thank you, Mr. President.  Just something very

 4     quickly to note for the record.  Yesterday there was mention during

 5     testimony of Mr. Trifkovic of a taped statement that was taken during his

 6     consultation with the Defence.  We asked the Defence for a copy of that

 7     under 67(A)(ii).  The Defence told us, in fact I think they proactively

 8     approached us, I should note, to tell us that in fact the interview had

 9     not been taped and no such tape exists, and of course we accept that

10     representation.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

12                           [The witness entered court]

13             JUDGE KWON:  Could the witness make the solemn declaration.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

15     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. Garaplija.  Please make yourself

17     comfortable.

18                           WITNESS:  EDIN GARAPLIJA

19                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

20             JUDGE KWON:  Sir, before you start giving evidence, I'd like to

21     draw your attention to a specific rule here at the Tribunal.  Under this

22     rule, Rule 90(E), you may object to answering a question from the

23     accused, the Prosecution, or from the Judges if you believe that your

24     answer will incriminate you.  When I say "incriminate," I mean that

25     something you say may amount to an admission of your guilt or could

Page 33380

 1     provide evidence that you have committed a criminal offence.  However,

 2     even if you think your answer will incriminate you and you do not wish to

 3     answer the question, the Tribunal has the power to compel you to answer

 4     the question, but in such a case, the Tribunal will make sure that your

 5     testimony compelled in such a way shall not be used as evidence in other

 6     case against you for any offence other than false testimony.

 7             Do you understand what I have just told you?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

10             Mr. Karadzic.

11             MR. ROBINSON:  Excuse me, Mr. President.  If I can say just one

12     more thing for the record and that is that this witness is here pursuant

13     to a subpoena and therefore has not volunteered to testify on behalf of

14     Dr. Karadzic.  I think that's important to be said for the public and for

15     the witness also.

16             JUDGE KWON:  I didn't see the point of raising this in court.

17     It's evident.  Yes.  Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Good morning to everyone.

19                           Examination by Mr. Karadzic:

20        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Garaplija.

21        A.   Good morning.

22        Q.   Thank you for waiting for the interpretation, and I would ask you

23     to continue like this so that the interpretation could be carried out in

24     time.

25             Could you please tell me your first name, last name, and your

Page 33381

 1     father's name?

 2        A.   Edin Garaplija, son of Ibro, and mother Ajsa [phoen].

 3        Q.   Thank you.  And where and when were you born?

 4        A.   I was born in Pljevlja, on the 14th of November, 1968.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  And what was your profession before the war?

 6        A.   Before the war I was construction contractor.  I was in the

 7     construction business.

 8        Q.   Did you change your job during the war and when?

 9        A.   At the start of the war, I was a reserve member of the

10     Ministry of the Interior of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina.  And

11     from June, I was a member of the State Security Service of Bosnia and

12     Herzegovina, which was part of the Ministry of the Interior.

13        Q.   From June.  Which year was that?

14        A.   This was 1992.

15        Q.   And what was your post?  What was your job in that service?

16        A.   Well, you could say that I carried out a lot of operative jobs,

17     starting from the administration for operative work, then through the

18     technical sector, the administration for analysis, and then most recently

19     I was appointed as deputy chief of the centre for the secret surveillance

20     of the State Security Service.  I was also the leader of an

21     anti-terrorist team.

22        Q.   Did you hold that position also in June 1996, and if not, what

23     was your position in June 1996?

24        A.   As I said, I was head of team for combat against terrorism and

25     also deputy chief of the service for secret surveillance.

Page 33382

 1        Q.   As part of your job on that anti-terrorist team, did you

 2     interview Nedzad Herenda in June 1996?

 3        A.   Yes.  As part of the operative action code-named Eagle, the head

 4     of the service, director of what was already AID, the service for

 5     information and documents, which was the successor of the State Security

 6     Service, Mr. Kemal Ademovic, gave our team the assignment to investigate

 7     the activities linked to the organising of the para-unit called Seve,

 8     headed by Nedzad -- sorry, including Nedzad Herenda.

 9        Q.   Can you tell us about the members of Seve.  What kind of

10     organisation is it?  When was it established and by whom?

11        A.   As I said, Nedzad Herenda was a member of the Seve unit which --

12     as the war operations began in April 1992 and he established --

13     Alija Delimustafic, then head of the MUP, established this unit Seve and

14     incorporated it into the MUP.  I would like to stress here that neither

15     then nor later, as we discovered in our 1996 investigation, within the

16     systemic organisation of the State Security Service was there any need,

17     nor was it envisaged, to establish any military unit like Seve.  The

18     existence and the work of that unit within the State Security Service was

19     completely secret, and only a few senior leaders knew about it.

20             In addition to Alija Delimustafic, the minister, the head of the

21     State Security Service -- or, rather, one of the leaders and later the

22     head of the SDB, Nedzad Ugljen, knew about them and managed their work.

23             After the existence of the Seve group was revealed to the public

24     in mid-1996, Nedzad Ugljen was killed in Sarajevo shortly afterwards.

25             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's request:  Could the witness be

Page 33383

 1     asked to speak more naturally.  It is very difficult to interpret this

 2     way.

 3             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   I'd like to clear up a few things.  You said it was incorporated

 5     into the MUP, and you say it was a military unit of the state security.

 6     Could you tell the Chamber what is the connection?

 7             MS. GUSTAFSON:  I'm sorry to interrupt --

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  Yes, Ms. Gustafson.

 9             MS. GUSTAFSON:  I'm sorry to interrupt.  I just was noting the

10     interpreter's request to the witness.  I wonder if that could be passed

11     on, that the witness be asked to speak more naturally.

12             JUDGE MORRISON:  I'm just slightly puzzled as to what that

13     entails.

14             Mr. Witness, the interpreters have asked you to speak more

15     naturally.  I think I know what they mean.  Perhaps if you could

16     enunciate your words a little more clearly, perhaps that's the problem.

17             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter apologises.  The witness is

18     cutting his sentences into bits and pieces that are difficult to connect.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm sorry.  These are very

20     difficult matters, but I'm trying to be as precise as I can because I

21     have great appreciation for your time and the time of the Defence team.

22     If something is not clear, I can try to clarify it.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Well, let's continue, then.

24             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   As far as I understand, it would be better for you to make pauses

Page 33384

 1     between sentences, not between words.

 2             Could you tell me what was the connection between the MUP and the

 3     state security whose armed organ were Laste.  To avoid any confusion, I'm

 4     talking about the MUP and the State Security Service.

 5        A.   I believe Mr. Karadzic is mistaken.  We are discussing the unit

 6     called Seve, not Laste.

 7        Q.   You are right.

 8        A.   Let me clarify.  Within the structure of the Ministry of the

 9     Interior, in addition to the public security sector, otherwise known as

10     the uniformed police, there existed the State Security Service, also

11     known as the secret police.  As I said before in one of my previous

12     answers, Mr. Herenda as a member of the Seve and the Seve unit itself

13     were appointed as a paramilitary unit of the State Security Service,

14     circumventing the whole structure.

15        Q.   Thank you.  What was the position of late Ugljen in that

16     organisation?

17        A.   I have already answered this question.  I said Ugljen was one of

18     the leaders from the time the Seve were established until his death, and

19     for a while he also held the highest position in the State Security

20     Service as its undersecretary.

21        Q.   Thank you.  Can you tell me what this operation code-named Eagle

22     involved?

23        A.   Under the code-name Eagle, an operative action was conducted to

24     detect and expose the unit Seve and especially its leader Mr. Herenda and

25     subsequently documenting its activities and documenting its chain of

Page 33385

 1     command and operative activities.  We received our orders for this action

 2     from the head of the service, or, rather, the Agency for Investigation

 3     and Documentation, Mr. Kemal Ademovic.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  Was the assassination of Nedzad Ugljen ever

 5     investigated successfully, and did it have anything to do with the

 6     operation Eagle?

 7        A.   After exposing the whole group, documenting the crimes they

 8     committed and especially those by their member Nedzad Herenda, a trial

 9     was rigged.  A show trial was organised in which the internal structures

10     of the Bosnian forces of law enforcement and justice tried to hide under

11     the carpet the existence of the Seve unit.  As far as I'm concerned and

12     my colleagues who were involved in the process, we were made to be part

13     of this show trial.  This was in June -- correction, July 1996.

14             A couple of months after we were arrested -- and I emphasise here

15     that I was detained together with my colleagues in complete isolation,

16     without any contact with the outside world save for the appointed

17     counsel, counsel appointed to me by the service wherein I had no way to

18     get any information.  So after a couple of months, Nedzad Ugljen was

19     killed in one of the suburbs of Sarajevo as one of their inconvenient

20     witnesses who was a direct leader and controller and knew a lot about the

21     people who gave orders to the Seve group.

22             Later, as the process unfolded, as the trial continued while we

23     were imprisoned, a judgement was pronounced where we were convicted for

24     kidnapping and killing Nedzad Herenda.  And this was a deliberately false

25     judgement because everybody knew we were police officers who acted on

Page 33386

 1     orders.  And only after two years of serving the sentences we were given,

 2     I addressed the International Court for Human Rights which had a branch

 3     office in Bosnia-Herzegovina.  It was called Human Rights Hall, presided

 4     by a French Judge, Michele Picard.  Our judgement was rendered null and

 5     void by that human rights court and a judge rapporteur, Giovanni Grasso.

 6     This court ordered a retrial, following which we were released from

 7     prison and pardoned in some way.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  So before July 1996 -- or, rather, did you interview

 9     Herenda in your official position in June 1996 or before?

10        A.   Yes, I did.  As I said before, there was this operative action

11     properly recorded by the service within the framework of the law.  We

12     were members of the agency for investigation and documentation, and we

13     conducted an interview with Nedzad Herenda for 72 hours, as the law

14     allowed us, on the official premises of the agency.  The interview was

15     conducted within the framework of our powers and authority, and it was

16     recorded on audio and video.

17        Q.   Thank you.  Did Herenda provide you in the course of the

18     interview with enough information about the personnel and the tasks of

19     the Seve group, with all the information you needed, in other words?

20        A.   I have to stress that Nedzad Herenda was extremely well trained

21     and attempted to conceal his activities, but we, the investigators, used

22     the ruse and presented the initial information we had as information we

23     received from his partner and accomplice in their criminal enterprise, a

24     man named Dragan Sosic, who also used another name, Dragan Bozic.  As a

25     result, Herenda made confessions that shocked us about his own activities

Page 33387

 1     and those of other members of the Seve unit.

 2        Q.   Could you tell us briefly what was so shocking about what you

 3     heard in that interview?

 4        A.   All the terrorist activities pursued by the Seve unit, beginning

 5     with sniping assassinations, setting explosives and such, were conducted

 6     completely outside of the system and very compromising to Bosnian

 7     defence.  The only one who could profit from such activities was the

 8     opposing side, at that time the Army of Republika Srpska.  We were

 9     shocked by the sniping assassinations and the brutality displayed by

10     Herenda and his co-perpetrators in these crimes, because until then, we

11     knew of such things perpetrated by the other side alone, by their

12     constant sniping and artillery attacks through the city.

13             We had never expected anyone from, conditionally speaking, our

14     side to be involved in such things.

15        Q.   Thank you.  Did Mr. Herenda, in that interview, say anything

16     about the murder of a French soldier in Sarajevo during the war?  But

17     before that, Mr. Garaplija, what you discussed, did the Seve unit do

18     those things only in Sarajevo or elsewhere?

19        A.   As far as I know and as far as I can recall after 17 years has

20     elapsed between that interview and today, and thanks to the proofing done

21     by the Defence team who reminded me of my interview to the OTP back in

22     1998 while I was doing time after the rigged trial that I mentioned a

23     couple of minutes ago, the Seve unit mostly were active within Sarajevo,

24     but some of their activities were conducted outside the city and even

25     abroad.  But because of the very short time that we had with Herenda as

Page 33388

 1     investigators, we had to focus on the most important things that we had

 2     assessed as being crucial or key for our investigation, and one of them

 3     being the murder of a French UNPROFOR member.

 4        Q.   What -- could you tell us what Herenda said about that, where the

 5     murder happened and under what circumstances?

 6        A.   I cannot remember the date exactly.  I think it was 1995.

 7     Herenda explained that he had been given a mission to open sniper fire at

 8     Serb positions.  This is what he would often do from the building known

 9     as the Executive Council's building in downtown Sarajevo, from which

10     spot, in accordance with his testimony, he fired at that French UNPROFOR

11     member.

12             I don't know whether he had any orders to do so or whether he did

13     it on his own, but certainly what he did was deeply compromising for our

14     struggle, for our defence, and for our officials.

15        Q.   Thank you.  You mentioned the Executive Council's building or the

16     government's building.  Could you please explain where it is located and

17     what are the most important facilities around it?

18        A.   That building is in the very centre of the town at the location

19     of Marin Dvor, close to the land museum, across the street from the

20     Holiday Inn Hotel.  That building was renovated after the war, and now

21     it's called the building of Greek-Bosnian Friendship, and it houses

22     institutions of the Council of Ministers of Bosnia-Herzegovina currently.

23        Q.   Thank you.  What were the circumstances under that French soldier

24     was murdered?

25        A.   I cannot recall all the details, but after the Defence team

Page 33389

 1     showed me a tape of my testimony, I recall that the French soldier was

 2     putting up fortifications along one of the streets which was exposed to

 3     the Serbian side so that the Serbs could fire at passers-by and

 4     civilians.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  Could you please tell me, at the time of that murder,

 6     was there any investigation taking place?  Who was suspected of being the

 7     perpetrator?

 8        A.   I don't know whether there were any investigations nor who

 9     conducted those at the time because I was not involved in documenting

10     those events at the time.  I did so several years later.  What I do know,

11     though, is that certain Bosnian officials stated that the Serb side was

12     responsible for the death of that French soldier.  Whether those

13     officials knew who the real perpetrator was, this is something that I

14     can't tell you.

15        Q.   Thank you.  Please tell me, did Herenda do that as part of a

16     particular action or operation?  Do you know whether he received any

17     remuneration or award of a non-monetary kind?

18             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Sorry to interrupt.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Before you answer.  Yes, Ms. Gustafson.

20             MS. GUSTAFSON:  It's just a minor point.  The -- so far the

21     questions have been appropriately phrased as, "Did Herenda tell you X,"

22     and now the question is phrased more in -- you know, did Herenda do that.

23     The foundation that's been laid is what Herenda has told this witness in

24     the past, and I think the questions should be framed in that manner in

25     terms of what this witness learned from Herenda.  Thank you.

Page 33390

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I concede.  Let me rephrase.

 2             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   Did Herenda say anything to you about any reward or remuneration?

 4        A.   Herenda said that for that action and for other actions as well,

 5     he did receive certain amounts to the tune of thousands of German marks,

 6     which were used as money in Bosnia-Herzegovina, and this was a small

 7     fortune for people living in besieged Sarajevo.  I can't recall how much

 8     money he received.

 9        Q.   Could you please take a look at 1D7607.  It is a short video

10     recording.

11                           [Video-clip played]

12             "NM:  So the last time we were talking about killing of a soldier

13     from the United Nations.

14             THE INTERPRETER: "[Voiceover] EG:  Well, Herenda said he was

15     shooting, that he was ordered to do so by Ugljen so as the United Nations

16     would blame the Serbs.  He received a payment for that in the range of

17     2.000 marks."

18             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   Thank you.  Does this refresh your memory, Mr. Garaplija?

20        A.   Since this is my statement I gave in -- to the OTP 12 years ago,

21     I think, in 2000, I think that what I said then is more precise than what

22     I say today.  As Mr. Karadzic said, it really did jog my memory since

23     that took time -- took place several years after I'd been arrested and

24     after Herenda had been murdered.

25        Q.   Thank you.

Page 33391

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we please admit this video as

 2     an exhibit, please, Your Honours?

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Ms. Gustafson.

 4             MS. GUSTAFSON:  No objection.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  We need to identify that portion by time or

 6     something else.

 7             MR. ROBINSON:  This is an excerpt, Mr. President, so that's the

 8     only thing on that exhibit.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Oh, very well.  Yes.  We'll receive it as the

10     next -- the next Defence exhibit.

11             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D2906, Your Honours.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  Please continue.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

14             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   Let me retrieve another document to refresh your memory.  You

16     said that you did not remember the date of this incident concerning the

17     French soldier.  You said it was in 1995.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we please call up 1D7056 to

19     the e-court, please.

20             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   Do you understand English, Mr. Garaplija?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   Does this jog your memory?  Was this in April, mid-April, and

24     does this document refer to that incident?

25        A.   I would have to read the text first before I can answer, if you

Page 33392

 1     allow me some time to do so.

 2        Q.   Maybe paragraph 5 would be of assistance to you.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] If we could turn the page.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Garaplija, are you happy with the English?  You

 5     have no difficulty reading the English document?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have no difficulty, no.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

 8             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   There is mention of a forklift tractor.  It is said here that the

10     first bullet hit the forklift tractor; is that correct?

11        A.   Yes.  This could be the aforementioned incident since it concerns

12     a French soldier, but what I don't see here is the location of the

13     incident.  This is probably on page 1 of the document.

14        Q.   I do believe that this is mentioned here.  A moment, please.  The

15     second line of this paragraph.

16        A.   Yes.  In the vicinity.

17        Q.   Erecting anti-sniper barriers near the Holiday Inn; is that

18     correct?

19        A.   Yes.  That's the -- the location that Herenda said that he

20     engaged in sniping a French soldier was close to Holiday Inn.

21        Q.   Thank you.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we turn the page so that we can

23     see the rest of paragraph 5 and paragraph 6.

24             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   Can you see (c) and (d) which discusses the distances for

Page 33393

 1     Bosnia-Herzegovina Army and distances between positions of the Bosnian

 2     Serbs and that location?

 3        A.   Yes, it says here that the BSA would have had three possible

 4     firing positions at approximately 300 metres, and under (d), that the

 5     BH Army would have one position at 150 metres.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Could I please -- I

 7     move to tender this document, Your Excellencies.

 8             MS. GUSTAFSON:  No objection.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  We'll admit it.

10             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D2907, Your Honours.

11             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   You mentioned another incident which was chosen to be

13     investigated because of the shortness of time, and that was an explosion

14     killing the wife of General Halilovic.  Did Herenda tell you anything

15     about that explosion which killed the wife of General Halilovic and her

16     brother, and if he did so, what did he tell you?

17        A.   Yes.  Herenda did admit that he was a co-perpetrator within the

18     Seve unit who planted that explosive device with a view of eliminating

19     General Halilovic.  It is important to know that General Halilovic was at

20     the time Supreme Commander of the Bosnian Army, and a couple of months

21     before this attempted assassination which killed his wife and her

22     brother, he'd been removed from that position because he'd publicly

23     opposed division of Bosnia-Herzegovina.  That could have been the motive,

24     because in his statement, Herenda said that they'd done it on purpose

25     knowing who the target was, that the target was one of the highest

Page 33394

 1     ranking officers of the BH Army, but that they'd been convinced that he

 2     was a traitor, enemy of the state, and that he was portrayed to them in

 3     that way.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  And did he describe to you the way the action was

 5     carried out?

 6        A.   Yes.  Herenda explained that they placed the explosive beneath

 7     the balcony or terrace of General Halilovic, that they monitored his

 8     movements electronically, that they had tapped his phones, were doing

 9     surveillance on him and other measures, and that at the appropriate time

10     were prepared to liquidate him, to activate the explosive device.  It was

11     just by pure luck that General Halilovic saved himself because he was

12     late in arriving home, and in the meantime, unfortunately for his wife

13     and her brother, her brother was wearing a camouflage uniform, clothing,

14     and he resembled General Halilovic, and at that moment when he appeared

15     on the balcony, on the terrace, Herenda and his associates activated the

16     explosive device, as a consequence of which General Halilovic's wife and

17     her brother were killed while General Halilovic at that point in time was

18     not in that apartment, and he survived the attack.

19        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Garaplija.  And thanks to the fact that the

20     General, as an expert, survived, was he able to find out who did this?

21     Was it possible to guide the investigation in any particular direction?

22     In other words, did General Halilovic have any idea of who was

23     responsible for the attack?

24        A.   As far as I know, General Halilovic was absolutely convinced that

25     this was an assassination attempt, conceived, planned, organised, and he

Page 33395

 1     survived this assassination attempt.  However, none of these acts by the

 2     Seve unit was criminally prosecuted, brought to trial, because a large

 3     team of people worked to conceal these crimes.  And as proof of that is

 4     the staged trial of myself and my colleague, because we discovered the

 5     existence of the Seve unit.  And then later, there were investigations

 6     carried out about the activities of the Seve unit and their organisation,

 7     so that General Halilovic actually did not manage, even though he did

 8     request that -- that this be clarified, he did not manage to get the

 9     authorities to bring the case to trial and to bring evidence to light

10     about the act in a regular legal procedure.

11        Q.   And how was this presented to General Halilovic, and what was the

12     public told?  What was the official position on this matter?

13        A.   The public was told that this was a shell launched by the

14     Serbian Army, or the Army of Republika Srpska, that it was a guided

15     projectile of the Maljutka type, as far as I can recall from Herenda's

16     statement, because he and the other perpetrators left a Maljutka wire,

17     which is a characteristic of that particular projectile.  They left that

18     behind in order to create the impression that this was a Maljutka

19     launched from Serb positions.

20             General Halilovic himself doubted this version of events, and

21     from what I learned later from reading the newspapers and from his public

22     statements, he sought additional investigations which established that

23     the explosion was not the result of a shell or a guided projectile, but

24     that it was possible that the explosion was the result of a planted

25     explosive device.

Page 33396

 1        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Garaplija.  And did Herenda tell you that just the

 2     wires were found at the place of the explosion or did they leave other

 3     traces in their attempt to present this as a result of an incoming

 4     projectile?

 5        A.   I remember the wire and Herenda's testimony about the wire, but I

 6     cannot now say with any degree of certainty whether there was any other

 7     evidence.  But again, I can say that that act deeply compromised the

 8     defence of Bosnia and Herzegovina, because that act of liquidation was

 9     carried out against one of the top-ranking commanders of the

10     Bosnian Army, which later most probably shook the morale among most of

11     the Bosnian units.

12        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Garaplija.  I would like to again refresh your

13     memory.  Of course it's been a long time since then, but I would like to

14     1D7608 now, please.

15                           [Video-clip played]

16             "EG:  So as I said before, Halilovic was running late, while his

17     wife and her brother stepped out on the terrace.  The brother of

18     Halilovic's wife was in a military camouflage uniform, so Herenda and

19     other accomplices of this terroristic act thought that it was Halilovic,

20     because they were observing them from -- from about -- from a hundred

21     metres of distance.  And at this moment, they activated the explosive

22     device, which -- which resulted in the death of Halilovic's wife and her

23     brother.

24             "The -- the previous plan and the previous organisation of the

25     Herenda -- Herenda's group was to use the investigation commotion, so

Page 33397

 1     they hoped that the assassination would be successful and that much fuss

 2     would be made out of that.  So they -- they decided to -- to plant a

 3     piece of a wire which usually remains after the activation of a

 4     remote-controlled missile.  That type of missile was often used in

 5     Bosnia, known under the name Maljutka.  Herenda explained later that was

 6     supposed to turn the investigation into the wrong direction, and the

 7     official report would be -- the official report would be that the Serbs

 8     from the mountain hit Halilovic's apartment with a missile."

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

10             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   And does this now jog your memory, Mr. Garaplija?

12        A.   Yes, and I think I said it before, and I mentioned similar

13     information before about this case.

14        Q.   And the Maljutka shell, does it leave any fragments at the site

15     of the explosion?

16        A.   I'm not a ballistics expert or a military officer in order to be

17     able to answer this question, and I don't know the answer.

18        Q.   Thank you.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellencies, I would like to

20     tender this excerpt under this number.

21             MS. GUSTAFSON:  No objection.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

23             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D2908, Your Honours.

24             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   Before we discuss what happened to you after this official

Page 33398

 1     operation, are you able to tell us if you gave up investigating other

 2     Seve cases, and did you just investigate these two cases on a priority

 3     basis, or did you also investigate other cases involving the Seve?

 4        A.   Mr. Karadzic's question is not clear to me.  As far as I know,

 5     from 1996 when I was detained in the put-up trial proceedings against me,

 6     I was no longer in the service, and I did not work after that in the

 7     police investigation organ, so I really cannot say whether the acts and

 8     the documents that we had acquired during our investigation from

 9     Mr. Nedzad Herenda, I don't know if they were ever brought to trial or if

10     the Prosecution procedure was ever completed, because since that time I

11     have been -- I was no longer in the police structures, and I was in

12     private business.

13        Q.   Thank you.  Perhaps I wasn't clear enough.  Am I correct when I

14     said that you said that a lot of things shocked you, but these two cases

15     you emphasised as a priority because of lack of time; is that correct?

16     Because you did not have sufficient time at your disposal for

17     investigations.  Am I correct?

18             JUDGE KWON:  That's leading.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] On page 13 of the transcript, the

20     witness said that he was shocked by a lot of things, but these two

21     particular cases all the more so, because they only had 72 hours to

22     document the cases.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We investigated the other crimes by

24     the Seve such as the liquidation of captured soldiers and civilians in

25     the great big park in the centre of town, something that was committed

Page 33399

 1     personally by Nedzad Herenda.  We had scores of witnesses about this.  We

 2     also investigated other sniper actions by the Seve units throughout the

 3     Grbavica neighbourhood.  We investigated the activities of the Seve in

 4     the execution and bringing in of confidential documents and funds inside

 5     and out of Sarajevo.

 6             There were a number of acts that we investigated.  However, these

 7     two, because of their brutality, were particularly shocking because one

 8     person involved was a member of the United Nations, the peacekeeping

 9     forces in Bosnia and Herzegovina entrusted with maintaining the peace and

10     security of all the parties.  And in the second case, this was a

11     high-ranking army commander and leader of the Bosnian Army.

12             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   Thank you.  Are you able to tell us whether this model of

14     proclaiming somebody as an enemy of the state was something that was used

15     in other cases, and did Herenda inform you about that?

16        A.   I don't know about other cases, but I can tell you about my own

17     experience.  When my colleagues and I documented crimes perpetrated by

18     the Seve, Bosnian leaders treated me as the enemy of the state.  That's

19     why this show trial was organised.  That's why I was placed in solitary

20     confinement for over a year in very difficult conditions.

21             Just to illustrate, I will tell you that this was the only cell

22     in the Sarajevo prison without heating and without a window, and I was

23     kept there from June until May next year.  That means one whole winter.

24     I was also subjected to various methods of pressure.  They wanted to

25     break me.  And later, after the conviction which found me an abductor in

Page 33400

 1     that show trial and after I was imprisoned, there were several attempts

 2     to kill me.

 3             And again I must stress the role of the human rights court which

 4     used the method of out-voting, where the Presiding Judge Michele Picard

 5     had two votes, and only thanks to them was my judgement quashed and a

 6     retrial ordered.

 7        Q.   Could you tell me about this incident in Veliki Park with

 8     captured soldiers and civilians who were killed?  Who were those soldiers

 9     and civilians?  Line 16, page 24.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Before you answer.  Yes, Ms. Gustafson.

11             MS. GUSTAFSON:  First of all, this information is irrelevant; and

12     secondly, the notification we were provided with basically consisted of a

13     Defence draft statement and the notification in the subpoena application

14     stated that the two incidents that have just been discussed were the only

15     incidents that would be dealt with through this witness.  So I object to

16     going into this further incident on those two bases.

17             JUDGE KWON:  But this witness is a viva voce witness, and then he

18     himself mentioned that incident, didn't he?

19             MS. GUSTAFSON:  He did, Your Honour, but first of all, the mere

20     fact that a witness is a viva voce evidence doesn't absolve the Defence

21     from the requirement to provide adequate notice to the Prosecution.  That

22     notice was provided in the form of the subpoena application.  In fact,

23     the Defence's latest Rule 65 ter filing refers specifically to that

24     subpoena application as the 65 ter notice.  That subpoena application

25     only mentions the two incidents that have just been discussed in

Page 33401

 1     testimony.  This other incident is contained in the OTP information, but

 2     it's contained in the OTP interview.  It's irrelevant, and the

 3     Prosecution wasn't notified about it.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  What's the basis on which you are saying it's

 5     irrelevant?

 6             MS. GUSTAFSON:  It deals with the execution of a number of Serb

 7     civilians and soldiers.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, would you like to respond to this

 9     objection?

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I can also withdraw the question,

11     although it does follow from the witness's evidence.  Let me move to the

12     last question then before --

13             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] -- the last one before the break.

15     Perhaps my last one.

16             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   I shall not ask you about the names of the prominent members of

18     the Seve group, but I was curious about one name in particular.  Did you

19     mention a physician, a pathologist, and what was his role in the Seve

20     unit?

21        A.   In his interview, Herenda mentioned a pathologist,

22     Ilijas Dobraca, who is no longer alive, but his job was to provide

23     medical certificates after certain assassinations, to cover them up in

24     other words, listing a different cause of death, natural causes or

25     something else, which would side-track the investigation.

Page 33402

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Herenda.  I have no

 2     further questions -- oh, sorry.  Sorry.  Thank you, Mr. Garaplija.  I

 3     have no further questions.  I have every sympathy for you and all that

 4     you have been through.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  We'll have break for half an hour and

 6     resume at 5 past 11.00.

 7                           --- Recess taken at 10.36 a.m.

 8                           --- On resuming at 11.07 a.m.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Before the Prosecution starts its cross-examination,

10     Mr. Garaplija, you told us that while you were imprisoned, a judgement

11     was pronounced where you were convicted for kidnapping and killing

12     Nedzad Herenda.  Do you remember having said that?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

14             JUDGE KWON:  But I'm not sure if you told us about the killing of

15     Herenda.  How was he killed, or how did he die?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Herenda was not killed.  It is the

17     indictment that said "attempted murder."  So at that time at least he was

18     still alive, at the time when we were on trial.

19             JUDGE KWON:  And you don't know where about Herenda now.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I don't know where Herenda is

21     nowadays.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  Yes, Ms. Gustafson.

23             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Thank you, Your Honour.

24                           Cross-examination by Ms. Gustafson:

25        Q.   And good morning, Mr. Garaplija.

Page 33403

 1        A.   Good morning.

 2        Q.   I just have a few questions for you this morning.  I'd like to

 3     start with just one question about the incident of the shooting of the

 4     French soldier that you described.  You said that Herenda told you that

 5     he had fired from the Executive Council building.  And just to be

 6     absolutely clear, I'd like you to clarify that the Executive Council

 7     building was in ABiH-held territory at the time.

 8        A.   Yes.  The building of the Executive Council was under the control

 9     of the BH Army throughout the war.

10        Q.   Thank you.  And you said one of the areas of your investigations

11     into the Seve activities in the course of your interview with Mr. Herenda

12     was the sniping actions throughout the Grbavica neighbourhood.  And

13     again, I'd just like to clarify that those sniping actions were actions

14     where the Seve unit were sniping from ABiH-held territory into Serb

15     positions in Grbavica; is that right?

16        A.   Yes.  That is what Nedzad Herenda told us.

17        Q.   Okay.  And all this -- all these things that Nedzad Herenda told

18     you that you recounted to the Court today, those were all things that he

19     told you during the course of your interview with him in June 1996; is

20     that right?

21        A.   Correct.  Within the space of three days, that is to say, the

22     72 hours that we had the right under the law to interrogate Herenda in

23     the Agency for Investigations and Documentation.

24        Q.   Right.  Because he was under arrest at the time; right?

25        A.   Correct.

Page 33404

 1        Q.   And before his arrest, you had never spoken to Herenda; right?

 2        A.   One month before his arrest, we initiated the Eagle operation,

 3     whose purpose was to carry out surveillance on and document the

 4     activities of Nedzad Herenda and other members of the Seve unit.  Within

 5     those 30 days, we kept Herenda under surveillance.  We documented his

 6     activities, that he had a service vehicle, a service weapon, et cetera,

 7     although officially speaking, that unit did not exist.

 8        Q.   Sorry, Mr. Garaplija.  My question was simply to have you confirm

 9     that before his arrest you had never spoken to Herenda.  That's right,

10     isn't it?

11        A.   No.  No, I did not.  I never talked to him before the arrest.

12        Q.   Okay.  And you referred in your direct examination to your arrest

13     and conviction following this interview with Herenda.  Just to be

14     precise, you were arrested specifically for the mistreatment of Herenda

15     in the course of the interview, in particular abduction, maltreatment in

16     discharge of duty, and attempted murder; right?

17        A.   Yes.  That was a bogus indictment that was quashed later before

18     the Human Rights Hall, and the domestic judicial institutions were

19     ordered to conduct a retrial where a verdict, a conviction, was handed

20     down for overstepping official authority and the unlawful imprisonment

21     that we endured, one year, one month, and one day.  After that, I

22     personally instituted another proceedings before the Human Rights Hall

23     that resulted in the quashing of the entire judgement, and I have since

24     never been tried for anything.

25        Q.   Well, in fact, Mr. Garaplija, what you've just described is

Page 33405

 1     untrue.  You were initially convicted, as you say.  Your case did go

 2     before the Bosnian Human Rights Chamber in 2000.  They did find a

 3     violation of your rights.  There were then further proceedings at the

 4     Bosnian Supreme Court in 2000 where they quashed the conviction for

 5     abduction, maintained the conviction for mistreatment in discharge of

 6     duty and attempted murder, and then you brought a further application to

 7     the Bosnian Human Rights Chamber and, in 2002, that chamber found that

 8     there had been no violation of your rights in the 2000 Bosnian Supreme

 9     Court judgement that had convicted you for mistreatment and discharge of

10     duty and attempted murder.  That's actually what happened, isn't it?

11        A.   That's precisely what I said, except I didn't mention that in the

12     second proceedings I was found guilty of overstepping my official

13     authorities, not attempted murder.  So the abduction and attempted murder

14     did not feature in the appeals proceedings.  And shortly afterward, I was

15     released from the state prison.

16        Q.   Well, in your earlier answer you had said that in the second

17     proceedings before the Human Rights Chamber, that those proceedings

18     resulted in the quashing of the entire judgement.  That's entirely false.

19     That Human Rights Chamber decision upheld your conviction; right?

20        A.   That is correct.  Perhaps I told it wrong, but I said I was never

21     again tried in this case.  That's what I meant.

22             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Okay.  Could we have 65 ter 24563, please.

23        Q.   The document that you're about to see, Mr. Garaplija, on your

24     screen is this second proceeding before the Bosnian Human Rights Chamber,

25     and this is dated the 12th of April, 2002.

Page 33406

 1             MS. GUSTAFSON:  And if we could go to page 3 of this judgement,

 2     decision.

 3        Q.   And here the chamber sets out the lengthy prior proceedings

 4     including its -- at paragraph 14 it describes its own earlier decision

 5     where it had found a violation of your rights in your first trial.  It

 6     then goes on to describe the further proceedings in the Bosnian state

 7     courts, and at paragraph 18 describes the Bosnian Supreme Court

 8     proceedings of October -- decision of October 24, 2000.  And it explains,

 9     in the second sentence, that the Supreme Court found it established that

10     the applicant, and that's you, "hit the injured party with his fist,

11     bound him to the pipe of a radiator, inserted a wooden club between his

12     hands when he was already cuffed and hit him on different parts of his

13     body."

14             And then it goes on to explain how the Supreme Court overturned

15     the conviction for abduction and maintained the conviction for

16     maltreatment in discharge of duty and attempted murder and reduced your

17     sentence.

18             Now, this is what the Supreme Court of Bosnia in the final

19     judgement against you found that you had done to Mr. Herenda in the

20     course of the June 1996 interview; right?

21        A.   The Human Rights Chamber did not deal with the details of the

22     conviction.  Instead, as the highest judicial body ordered a retrial, and

23     in this case the Supreme Court did not want me to be present and testify

24     in appellate proceedings, and thanks to a legal advisor from the ICTY,

25     Carl Kenning, who was present in the courtroom when that was said, he

Page 33407

 1     informed the Tribunal in The Hague which, as far as I know, issued a note

 2     to the Bosnian judiciary and then the Supreme Court held another session

 3     where I was allowed to give evidence.

 4             In that testimony, I put into the record the written orders for

 5     Operation Eagle, which identified us as officers of the Agency for

 6     Investigations and Documentation assigned to carry out the arrest of

 7     Nedzad Herenda.  I maintain with full responsibility that there was no

 8     mistreatment of Nedzad Herenda.  Instead, one of the operative workers

 9     who were in the room with him --

10        Q.   Mr. Garaplija, I'm sorry to interrupt you but you're not

11     answering my question.  And my question was simply to have you confirm

12     that this description of what the Supreme Court of Bosnia found in its

13     final judgement against you was indeed an accurate description of its

14     findings, not whether you agree whether the findings were correct or not,

15     but whether that indeed reflects what the Supreme Court found.

16        A.   I was just trying to explain the role of the Human Rights

17     Chamber, and what is written here corroborates what I've been saying.

18     The Chamber did not go into the details in its second proceedings.

19     Instead, it found that the original error committed by the Supreme Court

20     by failing to invite me to the session when deciding about the validity

21     of the judgement constituted a violation of my human rights, and this is

22     precisely what is said here.

23             The second-instance decision of the Human Rights Court, the Human

24     Rights Chamber, orders the Supreme Court of Bosnia-Herzegovina to allow

25     me to testify.

Page 33408

 1        Q.   Mr. Garaplija, this is the second proceeding before the Bosnian

 2     Human Rights Chamber.  It's quite clear because they reference their own

 3     earlier proceeding in your case.  So this is the second proceeding.  And

 4     if we go to page 12 of this decision, under "Conclusion" at the bottom,

 5     the Chamber concluded unanimously that your complaint of a lack of

 6     impartiality was manifestly ill-founded and, by 12 votes to 1, that there

 7     had been no violation of your rights.  So contrary to what you've just

 8     stated, the second proceeding in the Bosnian Human Rights Chamber found

 9     no violation of your rights in relation to the Supreme Court's final

10     judgement against you in 2000; right?

11        A.   That is precisely what I was trying to say, that this is the

12     second proceedings before the Human Rights Chamber, not the

13     Supreme Court.  The Human Rights Chamber did not go into the details of

14     the judgement of the Supreme Court except in the part that my right to

15     attend the session and present my defence was violated.  And provide new

16     evidence.

17             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Thank you, Mr. Garaplija.  I have no further

18     questions.  I'd just like to tender this judgement.  Thank you.

19             MR. ROBINSON:  No objection.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

21             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P6103, Your Honours.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] With the Court's leave, I should

23     like to note that along with this judgement of the Human Rights Chamber,

24     there is a dissenting opinion of Judge Giovanni Grasso, which is very

25     important and clarifies a lot of what I have been saying.  This

Page 33409

 1     dissenting opinion is attached to the judgement.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  It is admitted into evidence in its entirety.

 3             Mr. Karadzic, do you have any re-examination?

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Just one question, Your Honour.

 5                           Re-examination by Mr. Karadzic:

 6        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Garaplija, what about Mr. Herenda tell you

 7     about Grbavica?  What were they targeting with snipers?

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  I don't think it arose from the

 9     cross-examination.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It did.  Your Excellencies, on

11     page 29, line 3, the Prosecution suggested the target of this action, but

12     I would not like to discuss before the witness before we get his answer.

13     But for all the parties it's page 29, line 3.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Ms. Gustafson.

15             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Your Honours, this -- I mean, this doesn't arise

16     from cross-examination in any proper way.  I was -- the witness had

17     already mentioned in his direct examination sniping actions in Grbavica.

18     I was simply clarifying who was on what side of the confrontation line.

19     It does not open the door for Mr. Karadzic to now ask questions about

20     precisely who was being targeted, particularly as this is going to go

21     into irrelevant tu quoque evidence.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  You asked the witness, or you stated

23     in putting your question, that the Seve unit was sniping from ABiH-held

24     territory into Serb positions in Grbavica.

25             On my part as well I wanted to put a question with respect to

Page 33410

 1     that regard, so I would allow the accused to continue.

 2             What was your question, Mr. Karadzic?  What were -- who were the

 3     targets of sniping?

 4             If you could answer the question, Mr. Garaplija.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Herenda told us they targeted Serb

 6     positions and soldiers and sometimes also civilians.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Is that all you heard from Herenda about the

 8     targeting civilians?  Civilians from what -- which side?  You mean Serb

 9     civilians?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  I'm talking about the side

11     controlled by the Army of Republika Srpska.  And we were impressed by one

12     detail in this investigation.  When asked how he knew those people were

13     civilians, Herenda said that he selected women wearing black because that

14     identified them in his eyes as Serb women.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Do you have any further re-examination?

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No, no, thank you.

17                           Questioned by the Court:

18             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Garaplija, you talked about the Executive

19     Council building.  Do you know whether the sniper was on that building

20     throughout the war?

21        A.   Herenda related that he fired from that building as well.

22     Whether this was the case in the case of the French soldier, whether he

23     was at that position, which direction he aimed at, I'm not sure.  I can't

24     recall.  But what I'm sure about is that he did mention the Executive

25     Council building, because this is the only building of that height in

Page 33411

 1     Sarajevo and of that character.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  I'm trying to find the transcript page.  At one

 3     point in time during your examination-in-chief you told us that you were

 4     shocked because you never expected anyone from "our side" to be involved

 5     in such things.  So separate from the incident that involved a French

 6     soldier and Halilovic's wife's death, what else did you have in mind by

 7     such things?

 8        A.   As I said earlier, sniping at civilians, for instance, murder of

 9     captured civilians and prisoners.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Did you ever hear from Herenda that that unit also

11     did sniping against Muslim civilians?

12        A.   Except in the case of the attempted liquidation of one of the

13     then commanders of military police of the BiH Army named

14     Ismet Bajramovic, whom Herenda tried to murder by sniper fire together

15     with his associates, I did not hear from Herenda of any other instances

16     of sniping at civilians.  I apologise to Your Honours.  I did hear of

17     another case, opening fire at soldiers during the Trebevic operation

18     where Seve unit sniped one unit involved in that operation.  On that

19     occasion, as far as I can remember, two guards of a commander were

20     murdered, two sentries within that unit which got out of control during

21     that operation.

22             These are the two cases that I heard about in my interview and

23     investigation of Nedzad Herenda.  But since more than 17 years have

24     passed, I do not exclude a possibility that there were other cases.  I

25     could have mentioned other cases in my interviews with the OTP.

Page 33412

 1                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Ms. Gustafson.

 3             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Sorry, if Your Honours have finished asking

 4     questions, I'd seek leave to ask one further question in

 5     cross-examination that arises out of Your Honour's question.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, by all means.

 7             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Thank you very much.

 8                           Further Cross-examination by Ms. Gustafson:

 9        Q.   Mr. Garaplija, just in relation to the attempted liquidation of

10     one of the military police commanders, Ismet Bajramovic.  Now, in

11     relation to that incident that Herenda told you about, Herenda was tasked

12     to assassinate Ismet Bajramovic, who was not only a commander, but he was

13     also a notorious organised crime boss, and that was because of a dispute

14     between Mr. Bajramovic and Bakir Alispahic, a senior DB official, over

15     unsettled bills and drug trafficking; is that correct?

16        A.   That's correct.  Ismet Bajramovic had a very long rap sheet.  At

17     the beginning of the war, he got involved in Alija Delimustafic's cabinet

18     or office.  He was, as I said, within the Ministry of the Interior.  And

19     throughout his stay in Sarajevo, until the day when Herenda sniped at

20     him, he had performed military police tasks as one of the commanders.

21     After he was wounded by sniper fired by Herenda, Bajramovic was

22     dislocated to a European country, I think Germany, for treatment.

23             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Thank you, Mr. Garaplija.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, would you like to ask

25     re-examination -- have a re-examination on this issue?

Page 33413

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, your Excellencies.  Let us

 2     clarify concerning the answer to your question.

 3                           Further Re-examination by Mr. Karadzic:

 4        Q.   [Interpretation] Part of which structure was that unit whose two

 5     sentries were murdered by Seve during the Trebevic operation or the

 6     Trebevic action?

 7        A.   The commander of that unit was Musan Topalovic, who soon

 8     afterwards was arrested and liquidated the same day in front of one of

 9     the command headquarters of BH Army within Sarajevo.

10        Q.   Thank you.  Let's clarify this point.  Was Celo a member of the

11     Seve unit or was he a target?  Or are there two Celo?  I mean Celo

12     Bajramovic.

13        A.   Ismet Bajramovic, aka Celo, was a target of the Seve unit.  He

14     wasn't a member of that unit.

15        Q.   And what about the other Celo?

16        A.   Please be precise.  Who is this other Celo?

17        Q.   Ramiz Delalic, also known as Celo.

18        A.   Ramiz Delalic, aka Celo, was never their member nor was he a

19     target of the Seve.  Pursuant to Herenda's testimony, I do not have any

20     knowledge of him being a part of that group.

21        Q.   Thank you very much.  I have no further questions.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  That concludes your evidence,

23     Mr. Garaplija.  On behalf of the Chamber, I would like to thank you for

24     your coming to the The Hague to give it.  You are now free to go.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

Page 33414

 1                           [The witness withdrew]

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Shall we take a short break?

 3             MR. NICHOLLS:  Thank you, Your Honour.  That would be helpful

 4     just to log out and log in and rearrange our materials.

 5                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 6             JUDGE KWON:  The Chamber will rise for five minutes.

 7                           --- Break taken at 11.41 a.m.

 8                           --- On resuming at 11.47 a.m.

 9                           [The witness entered court]

10             JUDGE KWON:  Would the witness make the solemn declaration,

11     please.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] With all due respect to

13     Your Honours, before I -- I'm asked anything, I would like to address

14     you.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  Yes, General.  You may be seated.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Just before doing so, if the counsel for

18     General Krstic could introduce himself for the record.

19             MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.  My name

20     is Tomislav Visnjic.  I represent General Krstic in these proceedings.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. Visnjic.

22             Yes, Mr. Krstic.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.  You took a

24     decision on the basis of Mr. Karadzic's request.  However much his

25     request is legally founded, for me it is senseless, inhumane, and

Page 33415

 1     constitutes an act of violence against me.  The finding and the results

 2     of an examination by a psychiatrist and his colleagues concerning my

 3     health and the reasons for my return to the Detention Unit mean nothing

 4     to him.  He simply has his goal.  He wants to attain it at all cost.

 5     This is his matter.  But I cannot suffer such inconsiderate trampling

 6     over me for his attainment of that goal.

 7             My health is severely affected.  In such conditions, with all the

 8     ramifications of my PTSD and all my problems with concentration, and for

 9     all these reasons the very idea that I'm supposed to speak before this

10     Chamber, that circumstance causes a great deal of stress to me.  I warned

11     Mr. Karadzic of this, but of course, this means nothing to him.  Driven

12     by the goal that he wants to attain, he imagined that I don't want to be

13     his Defence witness.  He thinks that I was talked into that, and this is

14     not true.

15             What I've suffered throughout the seven years that I've been in

16     British prisons, not just that one attack, all that has affected me --

17             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second, Mr. Krstic.  I should ask Mr. Visnjic

18     if we can continue in public session or we should go into private

19     session.

20             MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I offered all the

21     available options to General Krstic, options on how he's supposed to say

22     what he wants to say, particularly the information about his health.  If

23     he wants so, I will move for that to take place in open session [as

24     interpreted], but it is up to him to give his final decision.  He knows

25     the options and it will be up to him to say what he wants to say and

Page 33416

 1     determine the method of saying that.  Thank you.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. Visnjic.

 3             Mr. Krstic, I take it you understood my point.  Are you happy to

 4     continue in open session?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I do want to.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  Very well, please continue.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Everything that I've suffered

 8     throughout the seven years that I was in English prisons, it is known to

 9     some members of the Chamber and to the public, and by the same token, it

10     should be known to Mr. Karadzic as well.

11             All this has left a deep scar in my mental health.  I am

12     physically very poor.  My sight is poor and damaged.  (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15     further torture, humiliation.

16             What I need is peace of mind, but unfortunately, I must say that

17     my peace of mind has been perpetually disturbed by Mr. Karadzic through

18     his repeated requests.  My recovery over the past year has not been

19     adequate by a long shot by the conditions prevailing in the

20     Detention Unit.  Although I'm under constant monitoring and therapy of a

21     team of psychiatrists who care for my health, my disease has not been

22     checked, and this is cause for my grave concern.

23             Bearing in mind everything that I've said and what my lawyer and

24     counsel has submitted to the Chamber, with all due respect to the

25     decision handed down by this Chamber this morning, I still maintain my

Page 33417

 1     position that, for health reasons, I am not able to testify in these

 2     proceedings.  Not just in these proceedings.  I hope that you are not

 3     going to ask me to discuss details of my health with you, something that

 4     I discuss with my physicians, given my state.  It will be irresponsible

 5     [Realtime transcript read in error "responsible"] on my part to concede

 6     and to agree to take the solemn declaration concerning the

 7     aforementioned.

 8             Thank you very much for your indulgence and for listening me

 9     out -- hearing me out.

10                           [Trial Chamber confers]

11             JUDGE MORRISON:  General Krstic, is it your position that your

12     mental and physical health is in such a state of disturbance that you do

13     not think that you could give testimony in this case which would

14     adequately reflect the questions that you might be asked?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Exactly.  Exactly.  No physician

16     can explain how I feel.  Except for me, I know what my state is, and I

17     know the nightmare that I'm going through today because of the

18     consequences that lie at the root of what I was telling you a moment ago,

19     because of the causes that brought about those consequences.

20                           [Trial Chamber confers]

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] If I may address the Court.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The Trial Chamber knows that I did

24     take into account fully what General Krstic experienced recently, and

25     that is why I just wanted to put a few questions to him.  So I'm kindly

Page 33418

 1     asking to be permitted to ask him those questions, but I will completely

 2     accept the Trial Chamber's decision about the further course of this

 3     testimony, but I do want to put a number of questions, the least possible

 4     number of questions, and that they be entered into the transcript.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Nicholls.

 6             MR. NICHOLLS:  Not to speak in front of the witness, but I

 7     reiterate the position I said this morning in closed session about my

 8     position on my cross-examination.

 9                           [Trial Chamber confers]

10             JUDGE KWON:  The Chamber is minded to take a lunch break now for

11     an hour, and we'll consider the issue.  So we'll resume at 1.00.

12                           --- Recess taken at 12.01 p.m.

13                           --- On resuming at 1.03 p.m.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Krstic, the Chamber has carefully considered

15     your statement and we understand your concerns.  Nevertheless, we

16     maintain the decision issued this morning that your testimony should

17     proceed today as planned.  Let me assure you, however, that your health

18     will not be discussed during your testimony, and the Chamber also

19     instructs the Prosecution and the Defence not to go into the incident in

20     the UK as it is not relevant to these proceedings.

21             The Chamber will, as always, keep the case under review.  If at

22     any time we think it is in the interest of justice to take a short break,

23     we will do so.  Likewise, you are at liberty to ask for such a break

24     during the course of your testimony.

25             Now, Mr. Krstic, could you please take the solemn declaration.

Page 33419

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] With all due respect in regard of

 2     your decision, I really stand by my position that I stated.  I simply

 3     cannot work to the detriment of my health.  I thank you very much.

 4                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Before we go further, I'd like to hear from the

 6     parties.

 7             Mr. Karadzic, do you have any observations to make?

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Excellencies, I called the witness

 9     taking a lot of care and taking into account everything that he

10     experienced, but I'm accused or charged with the events that occurred in

11     that zone.  I have no substitute for this witness.  No one else can

12     provide the answers to important questions, and in view of this

13     situation, I seek to put at least two questions.  The questions are

14     between myself and the witness, and the answers are between the witness

15     and the Trial Chamber.  I would at least like to put these questions to

16     him.

17             But I fully understand the position of the General and everything

18     that he has been through, and I think that you saw that in -- this

19     morning in my conduct and in my words that I took that fully into

20     account.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Nicholls.

22             MR. NICHOLLS:  Very briefly, Your Honours.  The only position I

23     would have is to respond to what Mr. Karadzic just said is not entirely

24     accurate.  For one, the -- I don't know, of course, what questions he

25     intends to put, but the guidance we've been given from the Defence is

Page 33420

 1     that the questions they would put are exactly what was put in the grounds

 2     for the subpoena as a relevant motion of what they would ask the witness

 3     about.  That information is available in the 92 quater testimony of

 4     Mr. Lazic, exactly what they would try to seek on one basis, and I

 5     advised my friend during the break that if they withdrew their objection

 6     to the Lazic 92 quater motion, that is one way they could get that.

 7             The second point is -- this was not raised by Mr. Krstic's

 8     lawyers, but the record does not -- the record of Mr. Krstic's prior

 9     testimony does not indicate that the -- he would give the answers that

10     Mr. Karadzic is requesting.  So I don't take a position on what steps the

11     Chamber should take next, but I just want to correct that statement.

12                           [Trial Chamber confers]

13             JUDGE MORRISON:  General, you have to be aware that a refusal to

14     give testimony when you've been called to the court calls into question

15     the issue of a potential contempt of court and the consequences which may

16     flow from that.

17             As you are represented today in court by Mr. Tomislav Visnjic of

18     counsel, the Court would like you, Mr. Visnjic, to explain to the General

19     in clear terms what the position is and what the consequences may be

20     under the statute of the court.

21             MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I talked with the

22     General during the pause, and he's completely acquainted with the

23     possible consequences according to the Tribunal procedures.  We did not

24     know what your decision would be, but I did acquaint him of the

25     consequences pursuant to Rule 77 in his particular case.

Page 33421

 1             I would like to say one more thing.  I would like to draw the

 2     Trial Chamber's attention to two errors in the transcript.  One is on

 3     page 41, line 9, where it was stated that it was my recommendation to the

 4     General to speak about his state of health in open session, but actually

 5     it should have been that I recommended he speak about it in closed

 6     session, but he accepted this other option.  This is one thing.

 7             The other second thing, on page 43, which I think is more

 8     important, line 25, in the translation into the Serbian, the General was

 9     told that during his testimony "your health will not be discussed."  This

10     is what Judge Kwon said, but actually the translation he got was that his

11     trial will not be discussed.  So perhaps this could bring about some

12     confusion and it could have had an effect on his final decision.  So

13     actually the translation that he -- or the interpretation he received

14     should be corrected to be in line with what Judge Kwon said.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. Visnjic.

16                           [Trial Chamber confers]

17             JUDGE BAIRD:  General, having heard what your attorney

18     Mr. Visnjic has said, do you still maintain your position?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the most important

20     thing to me is my health, and I stand by my position without any

21     intention to enter into any kind of confrontation with anyone.  Thank

22     you.

23             JUDGE BAIRD:  Thank you.

24             JUDGE KWON:  The Chamber will rise for 15 minutes.

25                           --- Break taken at 1.14 p.m.

Page 33422

 1                           --- On resuming at 1.56 p.m.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Nicholls.

 3             MR. NICHOLLS:  Your Honours, sorry to interrupt.  I think there's

 4     a possible error in the transcript I just wanted to bring to your

 5     attention.  It's at page 42, line 14.  It reads, where Mr. Krstic was

 6     speaking:  "It will be responsible on my part to concede and to agree to

 7     take the solemn declaration," and I was alerted to that by Mr. Tieger

 8     that the word might have been "irresponsible."

 9             JUDGE KWON:  That may be.  Do you confirm that, Mr. Krstic?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I do.  Thank you very much.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Well, Mr. Krstic, before proceeding further, the

12     Chamber would like to have before it additional medical information in

13     relation to your statement that testifying in this trial would be

14     detrimental to your health.  Therefore, the Chamber orders the Registry

15     to ensure that another more detailed medical report is produced

16     evaluating Mr. Krstic's physical and mental health.  In particular, this

17     report should focus on addressing the question of whether testifying in

18     this trial would indeed be detrimental to Mr. Krstic's health, and if so,

19     in what way.

20             It should also consider the issue of whether he's mentally fit to

21     testify at all.  In that respect, the medical examiner should consider

22     whether Mr. Krstic has a basic capacity to understand the questions put

23     to him and give rational and truthful answers to those questions.

24             The said report should be provided to the Chamber and the parties

25     in this case by the 8th of March, 2013.  Following the receipt of the

Page 33423

 1     report of the -- report, the Chamber will decide its next course of

 2     action.

 3             Mr. Krstic, you may be excused.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. Visnjic.

 6             MR. VISNJIC:  [Microphone not activated] Thank you, Your Honour.

 7                           [The witness withdrew]

 8             JUDGE KWON:  I take it there are no other witnesses for today,

 9     but I take it we can continue on Tuesday morning.

10             THE ACCUSED:  Yes.

11             MR. TIEGER:  I'm not aware of a problem.  I didn't know who you

12     were addressing that to, Mr. President.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Unless there's anything to be raised, the hearing is

14     adjourned.

15                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.00 p.m.,

16                           to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 12th day

17                           of February, 2013, at 9.00 a.m.