Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 36140

 1                           Wednesday, 27 March 2013

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The witness entered court]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 9.04 a.m.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Good morning, everyone.  Would the witness make the

 7     solemn declaration, please.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

 9     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. Djukanovic.  Please be seated and

11     make yourself comfortable.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

13                           WITNESS:  RODOLJUB DJUKANOVIC

14                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

15             JUDGE KWON:  Before you commence your evidence, Mr. Djukanovic, I

16     must draw your attention to a certain Rule that we have here at the

17     International Tribunal, that is, Rule 90(E) of Rules of Procedure and

18     Evidence.  Under this Rule you may object to answering any question from

19     Mr. Karadzic, the Prosecution, or even from the Judges if you believe

20     that your answer might incriminate you in a criminal offence.  In this

21     context, "incriminate" means saying something that might amount to an

22     admission of your guilt in a criminal offence or saying something that

23     might provide evidence that you might have committed a criminal offence.

24     However, should you think that an answer might incriminate you and as a

25     consequence you refuse to answer the question, I must let you know that

Page 36141

 1     the Tribunal has the power to compel you to answer the question, but in

 2     that situation, the Tribunal would ensure that your testimony compelled

 3     under such circumstances would not be used in any case that might be laid

 4     against you for any offence save and except the offence of giving false

 5     testimony.

 6             Do you understand what I have just told you, Mr. Djukanovic?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I understand.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  Yes, Mr. Karadzic, please proceed.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Good morning, Your

10     Excellencies.  Good morning to everybody.

11                           Examination by Mr. Karadzic:

12        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Djukanovic.

13        A.   Good morning, Mr. President.

14        Q.   I would kindly ask you to speak slowly when you answer my

15     questions and also to make a little pause after my question before you

16     start providing your answers.  This will allow the interpreters to

17     interpret correctly.

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   Did you provide a statement to my Defence team?

20        A.   Yes, I did provide a statement to your Defence team.

21        Q.   Thank you.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like to call up 1D7971.

23             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   Look at the screen.  Do you see a statement on the screen?

25        A.   Yes, I do.  That is my statement.

Page 36142

 1        Q.   Did you read the statement and did you sign it?

 2        A.   Yes, I read it fully and I signed it.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  Can we go to the last page.  Is this your signature?

 4        A.   Yes.  This is my signature, and I accept this statement as my

 5     own.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  Does this statement faithfully reflect what you said

 7     to my Defence team?

 8        A.   I personally simplified something.  I referred to all of the

 9     people there as volunteers, but this is not a good term.  I believe that

10     this is a mistake that I made.  All the volunteers who came and put

11     themselves under the command of the JNA were good fighters, and they

12     fought with us.  I'm saying this to make sure that these people are

13     separated from paramilitaries.  And "paramilitaries" is the term that I

14     should have used for some of the formations that arrived in Bratunac at

15     that time.

16        Q.   Could you apply that correction to a particular paragraph or is

17     that something that applies across the board and you will explain it

18     during your live testimony?

19        A.   Wherever I used the term "volunteer," if it is in a negative

20     context I would like to correct it.  I can't see exactly where I used

21     that term.  I believe that there are 64 paragraphs here.  That will take

22     a lot of time to correct.  However, whenever I use the term "volunteers,"

23     I would like to change it and correct it if I may insist on that.

24        Q.   In addition to that, is there anything else in the statement

25     would you -- that you would like to correct or is everything as you

Page 36143

 1     stated?

 2        A.   Everything is there that I stated.  I stated this as well.  I

 3     used the term "volunteers."  In the meantime I had another thought and I

 4     decided to correct that.  The person who took my statement made a very

 5     clear record of what I said.

 6        Q.   If I were to put the same questions to you today, would your

 7     answers be the same in essence?

 8        A.   Yes, they would be absolutely the same.  Only if either you or

 9     the Trial Chamber or somebody else asked me to clarify things, then I

10     could probably expand on the statement which is just a short summary of

11     the events.  I'm sure that I would have more to save -- say on the events

12     if need be.

13        Q.   Thank you.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like to tender this

15     statement pursuant to Rule 92 ter.

16             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President.  We also have one associated

17     exhibit, and we would ask that it be added to our 65 ter list as it was a

18     late addition to the witness's statement.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Good morning, Ms. Edgerton.  Do you have any

20     objections?

21             MS. EDGERTON:  I was actually having a look at that document,

22     thinking that there's insufficient foundation for the admission of that

23     document as an associated exhibit, and perhaps Dr. Karadzic could address

24     the circumstances within which the witness saw the document in the

25     witness's testimony.

Page 36144

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, do you have any difficulty with that?

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No.  Save for the fact that we are

 3     wasting time, there is nothing else.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.

 5                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 6             JUDGE KWON:  The Chamber is of the view that paragraph 5 of this

 7     statement is irrelevant or unnecessary, so it can be redacted.

 8             With that redaction, we'll admit the Rule 92 ter statement.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D3194, Your Honours.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Please proceed, Mr. Karadzic.

11             MR. ROBINSON:  Mr. President, just to be clear, do you want that

12     document led live?

13             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I'm now going to read

15     a --

16             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  The Chamber has no difficulty if

17     Mr. Karadzic addresses the issue raised by Ms. Edgerton, and then after

18     we admit it.  So we'll admit the associated exhibit as well.  Shall we

19     give the number for that.

20             THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, Your Honour.  1D7024 will be Exhibit D3195.

21             MR. ROBINSON:  Mr. President, would you mind if we left that to

22     Ms. Edgerton to address if she thinks it's important?

23             JUDGE KWON:  I would like Mr. Karadzic to deal with it.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  With all due respect to

25     your decision with regard to paragraph 5, I thought that it would be good

Page 36145

 1     to know where all -- when all the tension started.  They didn't start

 2     with the emergence of the SDS.  I respect your decision, however, and in

 3     that I think that we are losing one important part of a whole.

 4             Now I'm going to read Mr. Djukanovic's summary statement in

 5     English.

 6             [In English] Rodoljub Djukanovic was born on 19th of July, 1952,

 7     in Kravica, Bratunac.  He was a member of the Crisis Staff of Bratunac

 8     municipality in 1992, and president of the Bratunac Executive Committee.

 9     After the multi-party elections, a multi-party municipal government was

10     formed in Bratunac.  Nijaz Dubicic was elected president of the

11     Municipal Assembly.

12             At the end of August 1991, a crowd of Muslims attacked a military

13     police unit which was saved by the police who intervened.  The military

14     policemen were forced to fire shots in the air to disperse the crowd.

15     All sorts of swear words and insults were hurled in the army -- at the

16     army and the Serbs.  The following day, the Muslims around Bratunac

17     continued to yell and provoke the Serbs.  At the entrance of the

18     Hotel Fontana, the Muslims physically attacked a man only because he was

19     a Serb and from Kravica.

20             At around April 1992, Rodoljub Djukanovic attended a meeting in

21     Bratunac.  On the return from the meeting, Nijaz told him that he wanted

22     to take out of Bratunac all Muslims wishing to go to Tuzla and asking to

23     secure escort for them so that they would not be mistreated at police

24     check-points.  Police patrols were provided.

25             On 2nd of May, 1992, in Hranca, Muslims attacked a JNA military

Page 36146

 1     column that was withdrawing from Croatia through Central Bosnia.

 2     Rodoljub Djukanovic heard some people were killed and wounded.  The next

 3     day he learned that some people had been brought from Hranca and placed

 4     in the hangar of the Vuk Karadzic Elementary School in Bratunac.  He was

 5     not much involved in it.  Later, he was informed that some bodies were

 6     found near the River Drina and some people were believed to be killed in

 7     the hangar.

 8             On May 8, 1992, Goran Zekic, chairman of the Srebrenica SDS

 9     Municipal Board and esteemed judge, was killed in a Muslim ambush just

10     outside Srebrenica.  This caused panic among the Serbs there.  Then

11     Miroslav Deronjic informed them that they should only disarm the Muslims

12     in Glogova in order to ensure the safety of the Bratunac.  He emphasised

13     that the Crisis Staff had decided to disarm Glogova but not to kill any

14     civilians.

15             After the incident in Glogova, he learned that some Muslims from

16     Suha and Seliste were being brought to the football stadium, which was

17     guarded by armed volunteers in Bratunac.  He went to the police station

18     and asked about the situation.  The chief of the SJB, Milutin Milosevic,

19     told him that he did not know what was happening in the stadium because

20     he received an order not to interfere with the work of the army/military

21     police.

22             Because the volunteers were causing them problems in Bratunac,

23     paramilitaries were causing them problems in Bratunac, after some

24     discussions in a meeting the Crisis Staff decided to throw them out of

25     Bratunac.

Page 36147

 1             Later, he learned that the Muslims at the stadium that day had

 2     been transferred to the hangar of the primary school.  Then he was

 3     informed that killings were taken place and dead bodies were found there.

 4     Right after this, the Crisis Staff decided that the people in the hangar

 5     must be saved and moved to Pale.

 6             In the second half of May 1992, the Serbian villages of Mratinci

 7     and Lipenovici were attacked, some civilians were killed and wounded,

 8     houses and property were destroyed.

 9             On 29th of May, 1992, in Sandici, the Muslim armed forces

10     ambushed a group of officers from Bratunac Territorial Defence and

11     Milutin Milosevic who were on their way to Milici.  The chief of the

12     police was seized.

13             The Muslims then began to launch selective attacks on all Serbian

14     villages in Bratunac and Srebrenica.  It was mostly civilians that were

15     killed in these villages.  The most vicious massacres carried out by the

16     Muslims were the ones that took place in Bjelovac and Sikiric on

17     14th of December, 1992, and in Kravica on the 7th of January, 1993, which

18     was Christian Orthodox Christmas.

19             At the municipal government they never received any orders from

20     President Karadzic regarding the undertaking of any actions.  They

21     received one order in March 1993 when President Karadzic personally

22     ordered that a humanitarian convoy carrying food for Srebrenica must be

23     let through.

24             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   Mr. Djukanovic, in paragraph 54 you mention a document which was

Page 36148

 1     shown to you.  Unfortunately, paragraph 5 has been omitted.  It speaks

 2     about the long history of tensions between the ethnic groups in Bratunac.

 3     Can you tell us what you knew about the arming and preparations for the

 4     war of the Muslim ethnic community in Bratunac?

 5        A.   Since I was the president of the Executive Board, sometimes I

 6     found reports from the SDB on my desk.  We could learn from those reports

 7     that the Muslims were being guard [as interpreted] from Sandzak and from

 8     Sarajevo, and that those incidents were not sporadic.  This was a

 9     large-scale exercise.  This caused concern among us Serbs.  It caused

10     fear among the people, so the Serbs started arming themselves.  They

11     started buying weapons.  It says here in this paragraph that we received

12     an official note from the Tuzla DB.  There is a list of persons there who

13     are under threat, who could be killed.  Moreover, it says in that note

14     who were the highest profile individuals.  At that moment, all that was

15     very bad, because one could lose their life as a result of that.  Since I

16     occupied a position that was given to the Serbs, I was also on that list

17     for liquidation.  It soon proved to be true, because an unknown

18     perpetrator opened fire on me.  He shot at me.  His name was Dautovic.

19     So he was not unknown.  He shot at me without any reason at all.

20        Q.   Please can you slow down.

21        A.   I apologise.  I may have been speaking too fast.

22             That person Dautovic shot at me near the bus-stop.  He didn't

23     have a reason to do that.  I didn't know him.  He was an 18-year-old lad.

24     Luckily enough, he missed me, and I'm still here to tell the tale.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like to call up 1D7024.

Page 36149

 1             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   While we're waiting for the document to be displayed, could you

 3     please tell us who is in charge of the CSB in Tuzla in September 1991?

 4     Which ethnic group was a majority there?

 5        A.   There was a Muslim majority there, and I believe that the chief

 6     of the CSB was a person called Saric, also Muslim.  I believe that he

 7     hailed from Kladanj.  I believe that this is a very realistic picture of

 8     the situation as it was in Bratunac at the time.

 9             There are some situations that I did not agree with.  It says

10     here that some person I personally know, Jovan Nikolic, myself,

11     Goran Zekic, Miroslav Deronjic and I distributed people -- distributed

12     weapons to people.  I guarantee you that I never gave any weapons to

13     anybody.  I was not involved in the distribution of weapons.  I suppose

14     that this is just rumours that came from all sorts of people.  This is

15     the only thing that I don't agree with.  Everything else is more or less

16     a true reflection of the real situation as it was in Bratunac at the

17     time, the state of chaos that reigned supreme and the foreboding of what

18     would happen after that.

19        Q.   Thank you.  Can you tell the Trial Chamber what were the forms of

20     legal and illegal arming of the Serbs in Bratunac?

21        A.   The legal forms of arming could be seen at the end of 1991.

22     Alija Delimustafic, who was the minister of the interior, and he issued

23     an order to mobilise the reserve force of the police.  This is what you

24     call it in the police jargon.  The ethnic composition reflected the

25     ethnic composition of the population in Bratunac.  There were 64 per cent

Page 36150

 1     of Muslims, 34 of Serbs, and the rest were others.  I believe that there

 2     were some Roma and several Croats, and that's how the weapons were

 3     distributed.  I believe that several hundred police officers were

 4     mobilised from the reserve force.  Muslims received 64 per cent of the

 5     total number of rifles and other weapons, and I apologise, there is

 6     something that I forgot.  There was also the theft of a cannon.  I did

 7     not see that at first.  My eyesight is not that good.  And this raised

 8     alarm among people in Bratunac and Srebrenica.  First of all, we didn't

 9     understand how come a company could have a cannon.

10             Perhaps this is what you're asking me what were legal and what

11     were illegal forms of arming, because the Territorial Defence also

12     distributed some of the arms across the companies in the area and they

13     also gave some trustworthy people some weapons and so on and so forth.

14     However, Feros is a company that was given the cannon from the

15     Territorial Defence to look after it, and during the night that

16     anti-aircraft cannon was stolen which raised concern among the Serb

17     population.  The first question was why did they need a cannon, and then

18     when it was stolen, nobody knew how it would be used.  That's why we were

19     all afraid.

20        Q.   Thank you.  Can we please now look at the last page of this

21     document.  What happened in late August and early September 1991, which

22     is being referred to in the last paragraph which says after the incident

23     the Muslims gathered on the 4th September?  What happened then?

24        A.   That was preceded by the killing of two Muslims in Kravica and,

25     even before that, two Serbs were wounded in Avdagina Njiva at a

Page 36151

 1     check-point between Kravica and --

 2             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please speak slowly and

 3     repeat the names of all the toponyms that he is enumerating.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  I think you are speaking too fast so that it's

 5     impossible for the interpreters to catch up with your speed, in

 6     particular when you are referring to names, et cetera.  Could you please

 7     slow down and put a pause, wait a moment before you start answering the

 8     question.  Could you repeat the answer, please.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.  This relates to the

10     period when, between the villages of Glogova and Kravica, two Serbs from

11     Han Pijesak were wounded, seriously wounded from firearms, and this was

12     followed by the killing of two Muslims in the village of Kravica, more

13     precisely in Kajici village, and after that, the vice-president of

14     Bosnia-Herzegovina, Nikola Koljevic, and Avdo Hebiba came with him.  He

15     was a high-ranking official of the BH MUP.  They came to address the

16     crowd of inhabitants who gathered there.  People were afraid.  There were

17     two groups.  One were the Muslims.  The other group were Serbs, and in

18     front of the police station a lot of Muslims got together.

19     Mevludin Sinanovic, if I can see it clearly, climbed on a chair, took a

20     knife out and threatened the Serbs by saying that our country was Serbia

21     and that was the only place where we could live.  So that would be more

22     or less what happened.

23             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   Thank you.  This report, regardless of the fact that it was

25     drafted by the Muslim-run centre, does it approximately reflect the

Page 36152

 1     situation and tensions and incidents in Bratunac municipality?

 2        A.   Yes, President.  I said this is very close to the truth with the

 3     exception of certain minor details that I might object to.

 4        Q.   Thank you.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I tender this document into

 6     evidence.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, we admitted this, but what

 8     Ms. Edgerton wanted to know is within what context witness did see this

 9     document.  If you'd take a look at his document -- statement, 54, "I have

10     seen -- I have been shown document, this one, Official Note," and he also

11     said, "which I also received."  So in what context did he receive this

12     document?

13             Did you receive this Official Note at the time, Mr. Djukanovic?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  I received this Official Note

15     at the time when I was the president of the Executive Committee in

16     Bratunac.  We were informed about this, and I even have a copy of this

17     paper in my briefcase which I left in my hotel room.  I didn't bring it

18     with me.  Having talked with the people who testified before me, I was

19     told that I can see the statement on the screen and that questions would

20     be asked of me in that way, so I didn't bring the paper with me.  As I

21     said, I have it in my possession.

22             JUDGE KWON:  So what you are saying is that that's the usual

23     practice for SDB people to send his -- their report to the -- which is

24     strictly confidential, to the members of the Executive Committee.  Is

25     that what you're saying, Mr. Djukanovic?

Page 36153

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm not claiming that, but this

 2     particular document reached my desk.  I don't know what classified

 3     information is and how the secret services act, but in this particular

 4     instance, we had this information.  Possibly the reason was to make us

 5     aware of the threats aimed at me, Mr. Djukanovic, and everybody else

 6     listed here, and later on it turned out that they were valid threats.  I

 7     was shot at, some people were killed, and some people had to flee the

 8     area.  All I remember is that I found it on my desk, but I don't know how

 9     it came to be in my hands, whether through the protocol or maybe somebody

10     just brought it into my office in order to inform me.  Anyway, I still

11     have the document to this date.

12             And I clearly remember that these intelligence officers were

13     registered under specific numbers, which I found odd, but nevertheless,

14     even if the information is confidential, it sometimes find its way into

15     the public domain, the books, diaries, anything you can think of.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  That concludes your

17     examination-in-chief, Mr. Karadzic?

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Excellency.  Yes,

19     Your Excellency.  That's right.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  That concludes your evidence in chief in

21     this case, Mr. Djukanovic.  Now you'll be cross-examined by the

22     representative of the Office of the Prosecutor.

23             Ms. Edgerton.

24             MS. EDGERTON:  Thank you, Your Honours.

25                           Cross-examination by Ms. Edgerton:

Page 36154

 1        Q.   Mr. Djukanovic, good morning.  Can you hear me in a language you

 2     understand?

 3        A.   Yes.  Good morning.  I can hear you well.

 4        Q.   Thank you.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  Would you like to have your

 6     statement in front of you, with you now, Mr. Djukanovic?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, it could be useful, but if I

 8     get the documents in good time in Serbian, if I move closer to the

 9     screen, then I can follow.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Please continue, Ms. Edgerton.

11             MS. EDGERTON:  Thank you.

12        Q.   I just want to start off, Mr. Djukanovic, by -- with a small

13     clarification on one of the paragraphs you added to your witness

14     statement after you saw Dr. Karadzic, and that's paragraph 63 where you

15     make reference to the location of Cerovac, Cerovac.  Now, it's correct,

16     isn't it, first of all, that the proper spelling of that location in

17     Bratunac municipality is C-e-r-o-v-a-c?  It was misspelled in the

18     adjudicated fact you were shown; correct?  The name was simply

19     misspelled.

20        A.   Are you asking me?  In my statement, it is correctly spelt

21     Cerovac, exactly as you did it.

22        Q.   Yes.  That's what I was asking you.  And just one further

23     clarification.  These locations, Cerovac and Polje, are part of the area

24     of Hranca, aren't they?

25        A.   Yes.  They're very close.  They may belong to Hranca.  These are

Page 36155

 1     two hamlets that are probably part of Hranca.  But, listen, this place

 2     called Polje, actually, I had never heard of it.  Cerovac is part of

 3     Hranca, but it is possible that it is next to the road, Polje.  Sometimes

 4     valleys are referred to as Polje in our language, but I have never heard

 5     of that place.  There is a place called Zapolje, but I don't know about

 6     Polje.  And what I stated here is correct.

 7        Q.   Now, when you describe Cerovac as being a Serbian village, you

 8     don't mean to say that there are no Muslims who live there, do you?

 9        A.   That's not what I said.  There was a Serbian Cerovac and a Muslim

10     Cerovac, and it is possibly that a civil war broke out there.  I really

11     don't know when that occurred, and I don't have that information.  You

12     have to admit that it's been more than 20 years since then, but I know

13     for sure that the Serbian village Cerovac was completely destroyed by

14     fire and that we accepted people from Cerovac in Bratunac.  I clearly

15     remember that.

16             As for the Muslim village of Cerovac, and if I look at this date,

17     I really cannot tell you anything more.  I don't know.

18        Q.   That's fine.  Now, just a couple of other clarification

19     questions.  Your nickname is Rocko, isn't it?

20        A.   Yes, that's correct.

21        Q.   Now, in your statement that you gave to Dr. Karadzic's Defence,

22     you mentioned -- you talked about the High Representative's decision in

23     2004.  Now, at the time he issued that decision, you were a member of the

24     SDS Main Board; correct?

25        A.   Correct.

Page 36156

 1        Q.   And you were a member of the RS National Assembly; correct?

 2        A.   Correct.

 3        Q.   And how long had you been serving as a member of the SDS Main

 4     Board?

 5        A.   I was a member of the SDS Main Board -- let me think.  The

 6     replacements took place in 2004, but I think that I served the whole term

 7     of office, I believe.  I think that the party elections were in 2002.  I

 8     don't remember exactly.  But all I know is that I was a member for quite

 9     a long time.

10        Q.   How long is quite a long time?  When were you first appointed to

11     a position in the SDS Main Board?

12        A.   I was elected at the Assembly of the Serbian Democratic Party I

13     believe in 2002.  Paddy Ashdown dismissed us in 2004.

14        Q.   So two years at least.

15        A.   At least.

16        Q.   All right.  And so those things aren't in your statement, are

17     they?

18        A.   No.  I didn't mention that.  I did say, though, that I was

19     sanctioned by the High Representative, allegedly because I was part of

20     the support network of President Karadzic.  Now, after these sanctions

21     were removed and eight years later, it turned out to be untrue.  Now as

22     far as this is concerned and as far as these allegations are concerned,

23     they proved to be false and I did not participate in any actions relating

24     to the hiding of President Karadzic.

25        Q.   Well --

Page 36157

 1        A.   I -- I never heard or seen President Karadzic since 1996, and I

 2     didn't know his whereabouts.

 3        Q.   Well, since you've -- you felt a need to expand on that, let's

 4     have a look at the copy of the High Representative's decision at

 5     65 ter number 24810.  You don't by any chance read English, do you,

 6     Mr. Djukanovic?  All right.  Then I'll --

 7        A.   No --

 8        Q.   -- read to you --

 9        A.   I'm not literate in English.  [In English] From his positions as

10     member of --

11        Q.   [Microphone not activated][Overlapping speakers] ... I'll read to

12     you the parts I --

13        A.   [Interpretation] I know --

14        Q.   This is the actual High Representative's decision removing from

15     your positions on the Main Board and the RS Assembly, and if we could go

16     over to page 3 of this document, at the very bottom of that page, the

17     very last paragraph, it says:

18             As a leading member of the SDS occupying a position of

19     responsibility within the party and based on solid information and

20     belief, Rodoljub Djukanovic is, in whole or in part, culpable for the

21     SDS's failure to purge the political landscape of conditions conducive to

22     the sustenance of individuals indicted under Article 19 of the ICTY

23     statute.  Mr. Djukanovic's failings are inimical to stability and the

24     rule of law, and Mr. Djukanovic, therefore, obstructs the process of

25     peace, implementation and must be removed from office forthwith.

Page 36158

 1             Now, Mr. Djukanovic, I don't see anything in there about

 2     harbouring Dr. Karadzic.  You were considered to be violating your

 3     country's commitments to the peace agreement.  Isn't that correct?

 4        A.   In this portion that you read it seems to be the case, but you

 5     left out of a lot of it.  You took it out of the context, because before

 6     that, when there is reference to President Karadzic and other indictees

 7     accused of war crimes, it seems according to this that we were not

 8     exactly co-operative.  You understand what I mean, that the -- we were

 9     not loyal citizens of our country, that we were not co-operating with

10     The Hague Tribunal, but none of that was true.  Nobody asked us to do

11     anything about that.  It never happened that somebody called me and I

12     refused to appear.  It's all untrue.  Therefore, I was not hindering the

13     implementation of the peace process, and I can confirm categorically and

14     by assuming all kinds of responsibilities, criminal and otherwise, that

15     we complied.

16        Q.   Now --

17        A.   We were --

18        Q.   Now --

19        A.   -- accused of the indictees of being somewhere and that we were

20     helping them stay where they are.  I don't know where he got this

21     information from.

22        Q.   And this was repealed in 2011, following the apprehension of

23     General Mladic; correct?  That's -- yes or no.  Do you know or don't you?

24        A.   Yes, after that, but quite some time after that, and I don't see

25     the connection with the apprehension of Mladic.  I don't know what --

Page 36159

 1     what the relation could be between these events, and I never thought

 2     about it.

 3        Q.   Now, just a little bit more about your function within the SDS.

 4     You only added later on to paragraph 27 of your statement that you were a

 5     member of the SDS Municipal Board in Bratunac.  Now, just to put some

 6     dates in place, can you confirm that that was the case actually from way

 7     back in August 1990 right through to 1995?

 8        A.   Yes.  I was a member of the Municipal Board throughout that

 9     period.

10        Q.   Now, you also talked in your statement about your function as

11     head of the Executive Board, but I wonder --

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   -- if you can confirm that, in fact, following your move to the

14     government of RS in March 1993, you actually, the year after, in

15     August 1994, returned to take up the position of Executive Council

16     president in Bratunac.

17        A.   No, no.  I never returned to resume this position.  After

18     president came to Bratunac to allow the UNPROFOR convoy to pass through

19     Srebrenica, I and other people on the Executive Committee, at the request

20     of the people who were putting together the Government of Republika

21     Srpska, we decided to nominate the best people and the best educated

22     people, and one of those people who was invited to participate was

23     myself.  In 1993 when President Karadzic visited Bratunac, my impression

24     really was that this was becoming a core of something that could be a

25     political guarantee of our property and our safety and security.  I

Page 36160

 1     believe that this would yield good results, and I decided to join them in

 2     order to help with my experience and knowledge in creating institutions.

 3     I was appointed the main inspector or the assistant minister.  I was not

 4     a member of the cabinet, but I was given a large department.

 5             When I came, there was nobody at the head of that department, but

 6     in 1995, after St. Archangel's day, I refused -- I returned home.  I did

 7     not resign.  I only asked to be allowed to rejoin my family.

 8        Q.   Mr. Djukanovic, I asked you about 1994, and we actually went from

 9     1993 right through to 1995, so maybe I can help us stay focused by

10     showing you a document.  It's -- it's a page from the minutes of the

11     Assembly sessions from the Bratunac SDS, and it has 65 ter number 00603.

12             MR. ROBINSON:  Mr. President, is this document that's leaving our

13     screen going to be tendered by the Prosecution?

14             MS. EDGERTON:  No.

15             MR. ROBINSON:  Okay.

16             MS. EDGERTON:  And I want in this document to go to page 55 of

17     the English and B/C/S page 46.

18        Q.   This is -- I'll wait until we see it.

19             MS. EDGERTON:  Your indulgence for a moment, Your Honours.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can see it.

21             MS. EDGERTON:  And page -- I don't see a match.  Thank you.  If

22     we could just go over there.

23        Q.   Now, these are minutes from a meeting of the Bratunac SDS

24     Municipal Board from 14 August 1994.  Now, first of all, we see in the

25     middle of the page on the English and at the bottom of the page in your

Page 36161

 1     language that you were present at that meeting.  Your name's at the very

 2     bottom of page 46 in your language.

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   Now --

 5        A.   Yes, I can see it --

 6        Q.   Now --

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Now, if we can just go over to page 47 in your language and flip

 9     over to page 56 in English.

10             MS. EDGERTON:  And in B/C/S it's on the right-hand side of the

11     page under item 4.  Page 47 in B/C/S, and page 56 in English.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I believe that the previous English

13     page was correct, but we lost it.

14             MS. EDGERTON:  No, I have the previous English page.  Thank you,

15     Dr. Karadzic.  I'm trying to make sure that we have the proper B/C/S

16     page, which should be page 47.  And I appreciate it's not easy because of

17     the way these B/C/S pages have been entered into evidence.

18             That helps.  Thank you.

19        Q.   Under item 4 on these pages, we see a decision to unfreeze your

20     status and for you to enter the Municipal Board of Bratunac for the

21     purpose of taking over as the Executive Committee president, which is not

22     what you've just explained to us.  So --

23        A.   May I?

24        Q.   -- did you return to become Executive Council president or not?

25        A.   No.  I was never re-appointed as president of the Executive

Page 36162

 1     Committee.  Executive Committee is an executive branch, whereas the

 2     Municipal Board is something which is called political authority.  The

 3     period when I joined the Government of Republika Srpska, for a time I did

 4     not attend the meetings or anything, and meetings were anyway scarce

 5     because of the lack of communications.

 6             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreters didn't hear Mr. Karadzic's

 7     intervention.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Actually, this means that I was

 9     reactivated as a member of the Municipal Board, and I was literally

10     obliged to attend the board meetings, and I was virtually warned of being

11     obliged to come and attend the meetings, but I never resumed the position

12     of the president of the Executive Committee in the executive branch of

13     the government in Bratunac.  I cannot remember all the details of this,

14     but I remember what was happening, and there was a lot of criticism

15     coming from Serbia on the account of our leadership.

16        Q.   Now --

17        A.   I don't know what happened later.

18        Q.   That's fine.  Thank you.  Now that you've cleared that up, I want

19     to go to some of your other SDS positions.

20             Is it correct or can you confirm that later in 1994 you were

21     appointed to the position of director of the distribution centre?

22     October 1994.

23        A.   Distribution centre?  Distribution of what?  Oh, yes, the

24     distribution centre in Bratunac.  Yes.  Perhaps, though it may have been

25     called slightly differently.  What you refer to as the centre for

Page 36163

 1     distribution is the distribution centre housed in a facility that was put

 2     up by the Swedish, with all of the equipment and ramps belonging to the

 3     Guber company.  I took it over perhaps in October or November 1995, when

 4     I told you I returned from the RS government.  Then I became director of

 5     Guber, and it also had a distribution centre under it in Bratunac.  The

 6     distribution per se is just a building which for the most part was

 7     empty --

 8        Q.   Okay, thank you --

 9        A.   -- and it had -- what do you call them?

10        Q.   Let's go back now to 1992.  And apologies to jump you around like

11     this, but perhaps you can confirm that in June 1992, in addition to your

12     positions in the Municipal Board and on the Crisis Staff, you were also

13     appointed to the War Presidency for Bratunac municipality.

14        A.   That's right.  Per function, per position, because that was

15     something to be occupied by the president of the Executive Council, and

16     as you can see, I was elected to that post legally and legitimately by

17     all the citizens of Bratunac municipality.  There were three political

18     parties, the SDA, SDS, and SDP, and out of 61 deputies, there were only

19     4 deputies against my appointment.  When this happened, what happened in

20     1992, then I, by virtue of my position as president of Executive Council,

21     became a member of the Crisis Staff for a while during the period when

22     the authorities basically did not even function.

23        Q.   Can you also confirm that in addition to these positions you

24     served as a member of the SDS regional board for Birac?

25        A.   Yes, I did.  I was elected to the Executive Council of the region

Page 36164

 1     of Birac called the SAO Birac at the time.  It was a political response

 2     of ours to the referendum which took place around that time, because the

 3     Muslims and Croats decided to hold a referendum to secede from

 4     Yugoslavia.  I did not dispute their right as a people to do that, but we

 5     as a people refused to accept it.  By virtue of the constitution from

 6     1974 it was the right of the peoples, not of the republics.  However,

 7     they --

 8        Q.   Mr. Djukanovic, I didn't ask you about what kind of response you

 9     had to the referendums.  I simply asked you to confirm whether or not you

10     severed as a member of the SDS regional board for Birac.  So maybe I

11     could invite you to just focus on what I'm asking you for questions.

12        A.   Precisely.

13        Q.   Can you also confirm that the members -- among the other members

14     of the SDS Regional Board were Mr. Deronjic, Rajko Dukic, Brano Grujic,

15     and Jovo Mijatovic, among others?  Can you confirm that?

16        A.   I can confirm that they were present, and I was there, and I was

17     elected vice-president of the Executive Council of the SAO Birac.

18     Apologies.  I just wanted to clarify by saying that it was our political

19     response.  It was a political item we rallied around, and we were against

20     the referendum.  We wanted to hold a referendum which would be voting on

21     our remaining in Yugoslavia.

22        Q.   [Microphone not activated] Now, I want to jump forward to 1995 --

23             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Microphone, Ms. Edgerton.

25             MS. EDGERTON:  Oh, I'm sorry, Your Honours.  You might tell by my

Page 36165

 1     voice I'm a bit under the weather today.

 2        Q.   So I'd like to move forward to 1995.  You said in your statement

 3     that in 1995, and I'll find you the exact paragraph reference, in

 4     paragraph 53, you were not in Bratunac, and that was in reference to

 5     events in Srebrenica in 1995.  So I'd just like you to tell us where

 6     specifically, physically, you were in July 1995.

 7        A.   In July 1995, I was still with the RS government on the jobs I

 8     have described, but indeed in July 1995, I was in Bratunac.  My cousin

 9     had been killed, that is to say, my uncle's brother.  I was dressed in

10     black and in mourning.  I was in Bratunac for a couple of days and did

11     not follow events --

12        Q.   And when was that?

13        A.   -- but in principle, I wasn't in Bratunac during that period.

14        Q.   When was that?  When were you in Bratunac in July 1995?

15        A.   I was in Bratunac on the very day when Ibran Mustafic, I don't

16     know the date, but it was when he -- he wrote that book.  He was the

17     president of the Executive Council in Srebrenica.  If you know when he

18     was brought in to the police station, I don't know if he spent a few days

19     there, but it was on the day I was there.  I saw him come out in front of

20     the police station to have a cigarette.

21        Q.   And --

22        A.   I saw him in front of the station in Bratunac and I do not recall

23     which day it was exactly.

24        Q.   Well, while you were in Bratunac, did you have -- did the

25     Municipal Assembly meet?

Page 36166

 1        A.   I was not a deputy in the Municipal Assembly of Bratunac.  I told

 2     you, I was only a member of the Municipal Board, and I do not recall an

 3     Assembly session in Bratunac.  That's one thing.  Another thing, I told

 4     you why I came and what my state of mind was at the time.

 5        Q.   Maybe --

 6        A.   I didn't care much about things at the time --

 7        Q.   Maybe --

 8        A.   -- and I didn't follow politics.

 9        Q.   Maybe I can show you another document to refresh your memory.

10             MS. EDGERTON:  Could we go back, please, to 65 ter number 00603.

11        Q.   These are the minutes of the meetings of the Bratunac Municipal

12     Assembly that I showed you earlier.

13             MS. EDGERTON:  Let's go over in English to page 66, and in B/C/S

14     it should be page 55.  And I appreciate my friend's difficulty with the

15     Serbian pages, because in fact two pages of a book have been scanned to

16     make a single page.  Thank you.

17        Q.   Now, here's minutes from the second meeting of the SDS Municipal

18     Board in Bratunac held on July 30th, 1995, and if we scroll -- if we have

19     a look halfway through the page in front of you, we see that you were

20     there, and you see that in both languages.

21             MS. EDGERTON:  And if we could go over in English to page 56.

22     Pardon me.  If we could go over in B/C/S to page 56.  On the bottom

23     left-hand side and over in English to page 67, I think.

24             Under item -- under item 3 we see there that the Assembly was

25     informed on the situation in the area since the liberation of Srebrenica

Page 36167

 1     until that day, July 30th.

 2        Q.   And at this meeting, Mr. Djukanovic, you were included on -- in a

 3     working group on a platform for the territorial and political integration

 4     of the municipalities of Skelani, Srebrenica, and Bratunac along with

 5     Mr. Deronjic, Mr. Simic, and Jovan Nikolic.

 6             Now is your memory refreshed as to what you were doing on the

 7     30th of July, 1995?

 8        A.   I do not dispute that I was there on the 30th of July.  I did not

 9     know what this pertained to.  I think I said something different as

10     regards 1995 and the events in Srebrenica.  I wasn't there then, because

11     by the time I was the principal market inspector and I thought you were

12     asking me about something else.  On the 30th of July, in Bratunac, at the

13     Assembly, I was there positively because I see my name appear several

14     times.  Wherever it says "Rocko," "Rocko's suggestion," that's all true,

15     I was there.  And I see Rodoljub Djukanovic appearing as well.  Yes.

16     Yes.  I attended this session of the Assembly.  Is there anything in

17     dispute there?

18        Q.   No, I'm happy to have your confirmation because it was

19     clarification of your statement to the effect that you weren't in

20     Bratunac around the time of the events in Srebrenica.

21             MS. EDGERTON:  I'd like to tender the pages related to this

22     meeting as an exhibit, please, Your Honours.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Are you tendering the previous pages we saw,

24     pages -- English pages 55 and 56?

25             MS. EDGERTON:  I -- I think it's -- yes, because that covers the

Page 36168

 1     whole meeting that date.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  When Mr. Stevic was here we admitted part of this

 3     document, so in that regard we'll admit separately the document parts we

 4     saw today as separate exhibit.  Shall we give the number.

 5             MS. EDGERTON:  I did note that other pages had been previously

 6     tendered and I'm in Your Honours' hands as to how to organise that.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  So the dates we are admitting is 14th of August

 8     and -- 1994 and 30th of July, 1995.

 9             MS. EDGERTON:  Yes, please.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  We'll admit them.

11             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P6237, Your Honours.

12             MS. EDGERTON:  Thank you.

13        Q.   Now, in your evidence you discussed -- actually, I'll ask you the

14     question a different way.  These SDS meetings that we've been looking at,

15     the meetings that you attended, discussed, Mr. Djukanovic, orders and

16     directives you received from Dr. Karadzic and from the SDS central

17     authorities, didn't they?

18        A.   Listen, these were no orders by Dr. Karadzic to establish a

19     region or a town that would include Srebrenica and Bratunac.  I know

20     there were such proposals by some people who perhaps were not well

21     versed.  You know how it is.  There are people -- there are tradesmen who

22     wish to be architects, et cetera.  These were different matters.  But

23     from Karadzic we never received anything in that regard.  I know that

24     Miroslav Deronjic was appointed some kind of a civilian commissioner for

25     Srebrenica.  That's what I know.  Now --

Page 36169

 1        Q.   Mr. Djukanovic --

 2        A.   -- as for any direct instructions --

 3        Q.   When you say that -- when you say that, do you mean to say that

 4     you never received orders from Dr. Karadzic at any time during the war?

 5     Or even prior?

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Excuse me, in what capacity?  In

 7     what capacity could he have received it, or received it as what, as the

 8     president of the Executive Board?

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  It's not appropriate for you to

10     intervene in such a way.  You can take up the issue.  Ms. Edgerton can

11     ask the witness whether he received any order, instruction, or whatever.

12             Please continue, Ms. Edgerton.

13             MS. EDGERTON:

14        Q.   Would you like me to repeat my question, Mr. Djukanovic?

15        A.   No need.  I understood the question well.  Trust me, irrespective

16     of President Karadzic's intervention, I never, be it in oral or written

17     form, received from President Karadzic any kind of order to do something

18     which would indicate anything improper.  I don't know what you mean

19     exactly, really, but I didn't --

20        Q.   No --

21        A.   -- at least --

22        Q.   [Microphone not activated]

23             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

24             MS. EDGERTON:

25        Q.   I'm sorry.  I didn't ask about whether or not it was something

Page 36170

 1     proper or improper.  I asked whether at any time in the period up to or

 2     during the conflict in former Yugoslavia you received orders or

 3     directives from Dr. Karadzic.  And actually, just to make it perfectly

 4     clear, I'm not talking about you personally.  I'm talking about you

 5     within your function - and I hope this assists Dr. Karadzic - within your

 6     function in the municipal and SDS authorities in Bratunac, did you

 7     receive any orders or directives from Dr. Karadzic; yes or no?

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] That's all I wanted, Your

 9     Excellency.  To see to what position my instructions should have or were

10     supposed to go to.

11             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  The witness started

12     speaking and overlapping.  Could he please start again.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, when I said inappropriate, just be

14     patient.  You can clarify during your re-examination.  Because of your

15     intervention, witness was not heard.

16             Could you repeat your answer, Mr. Djukanovic.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I told you I have never, in written

18     or oral form, officially or unofficially, and that's what I usually say,

19     I never received any orders from Mr. Karadzic, any orders to do

20     something, because I was part of the executive authority.  I was the

21     principal market inspector and only a member of the Municipal Board, and

22     the president of the Municipal Board was Miroslav Deronjic.  Politically

23     speaking -- sorry, I'll try to slow down.  He was tasked with

24     communicating with President Karadzic when there were Main Board meetings

25     at the party, et cetera.

Page 36171

 1             Now, there was a period during which the work of our political

 2     party was frozen, that is to say of the SDS.  I don't recall when

 3     exactly --

 4        Q.   Now --

 5        A.   First and foremost so that there would be no party politics

 6     undertaken by just about anyone --

 7        Q.   Well --

 8        A.   -- that's why we froze the work of the party.

 9        Q.   How about -- how about we have a look again at another document

10     because I think that will help focus you really.

11             MS. EDGERTON:  This time I'd like to have a look at P3197.  Now,

12     this is another set of minutes, P3197.  This is another set of minutes

13     and it's minutes of the emergency meeting of the Municipal Board of the

14     SDS of Bratunac.  Page -- in B/C/S pages 2 to 4.  Not the correct B/C/S

15     page.  Start by going to page 2.

16        Q.   I'll -- what I'll do is I'll read this to you, and if we need to

17     go back to this after the break or if you'd like to see the original

18     copy --

19             MS. EDGERTON:  Do you know -- Madam Registrar [sic], if you could

20     go back one page in B/C/S.  And it's because of the way these have been

21     scanned.  And again one page, please.  There we are.

22        Q.   Now, these are minutes of a meeting which you see in the second

23     paragraph which is at the bottom of the page in your language, which you

24     see specifically relate to a meeting of -- an enlarged session of the

25     Main Board of the SDS in BiH.

Page 36172

 1             Mr. Deronjic informed all those present about the positions and

 2     instructions of the Main Board of the SDH [sic] after an enlarged session

 3     was held last night October 18, 1991, and Mr. -- Mr. Djukanovic,

 4     underneath the heading of this document you see specifically that these

 5     are minutes of an emergency meeting related to the order of the president

 6     of the SDS BiH, Dr. Karadzic.  How could that be any clearer?

 7             And -- and, Mr. Djukanovic, this Court has received evidence that

 8     shows that Dr. Karadzic, on the 18th of October, declared a state of

 9     emergency in the party, and the SDS across Bosnia and Herzegovina was

10     instructed to take specific measures.  Here we have a clear example of

11     the SDS in Bratunac meeting to take specific measures in response to an

12     order from Dr. Karadzic following an enlarged session of the SDS

13     Main Board.  So this appears again to directly contradict what you said

14     in your evidence a few minutes ago, does it not?

15        A.   To tell you the truth, I didn't completely or entirely understand

16     you.  I don't know what it's about.  I told you that in terms of

17     communicating with President Karadzic, it was -- well, perhaps it wasn't

18     necessarily his task, but it was part of his job description who was the

19     president of the Municipal Board, and it was Miroslav Deronjic, who was

20     also a member of the Main Board.

21             Now, as for an order arriving from Radovan Karadzic, I don't know

22     what you wanted to say.  Was it an order to establish a Crisis Staff or

23     to declare some kind of extraordinary measures or state?  Ex officio as

24     the president of the board I was a member of the staff.  It's nothing to

25     be disputed.  Everyone knows that in times of crisis such staffs are

Page 36173

 1     formed, let alone in the type of chaos we lived in.

 2        Q.   You said unequivocally, actually, that you never received orders

 3     or directives from Dr. Karadzic, and that was in answer to my question.

 4     And these minutes of this Assembly meeting, which appears to be on the

 5     19th of October, 1991, say exactly the contrary.  So which is correct,

 6     Mr. Djukanovic?

 7        A.   You're trying to say that at the Assembly session an order

 8     arrived from President Karadzic?

 9        Q.   Mr. Djukanovic, you said you never received orders from

10     Dr. Karadzic.  These Assembly minutes say exactly the opposite.  Look at

11     the title line:

12             "Minutes of the emergency meeting of the Presidency of the

13     Municipal Board of the SDS of Bratunac related to the order of the

14     president of the SDS of Bosnia and Herzegovina, Dr. Karadzic."

15             What's unclear about that?  Mr. Djukanovic, you did receive

16     orders from Dr. Karadzic, didn't you?

17        A.   Well -- well, I said I didn't receive any orders from

18     Dr. Karadzic for a long time, and Miroslav liked to use his political

19     skill and would tell us that it was ordered by Dr. Karadzic, whereas, as

20     a matter of fact, he actually wanted to put forth something of his own,

21     perhaps to deal with a political opponent.  It was this or that.  But I

22     don't see any kind of orders sent by President Karadzic.  You can only

23     see that these are the minutes of the emergency meeting of the Presidency

24     of the Municipal Board of the SDS of Bratunac related to the order of the

25     president of the SDS of BH, Dr. Karadzic.

Page 36174

 1        Q.   So is it your evidence that you --

 2        A.   I didn't see it ever or -- I'm listening.

 3        Q.   I'm sorry, I interrupted you.  You can finish your sentence.

 4        A.   No, no.  I'm listening.  You asked me if I was saying --

 5        Q.   So are you saying that you in Bratunac then took no special

 6     measures as a result of this order from Dr. Karadzic and the positions

 7     and instructions of the Main Board of the SDS declaring a state of

 8     emergency?

 9        A.   I told you that Miroslav Deronjic would bring these sort of

10     opinions, and we of course trusted him.  But to tell you the truth, he

11     frequently used his political skill to forward his own agenda.

12        Q.   So are you saying --

13        A.   I don't see any orders by Dr. Karadzic in here.

14        Q.   So these minutes don't reflect anything from Dr. Karadzic.  This

15     reflects Mr. Deronjic's own agenda.  Is that what you're saying now?

16        A.   Most likely, because I don't see any kind of paper.  Is there

17     proof that there was an order?  It says on orders from Dr. Karadzic, but

18     I don't see any orders.  I don't know.

19        Q.   How about --

20        A.   To establish Crisis Staffs?  What did this pertain to, and what

21     was supposed to be done?  Briefing on the situation after an illegal vote

22     of the -- about the sovereignty of Bosnia-Herzegovina.  We did discuss

23     such matters, and it's not disputed.  And that there may have been such

24     an order by Dr. Karadzic, but I didn't have it in my hand.  I probably

25     must have accepted it, and I don't recall it all too well.  I don't

Page 36175

 1     recall the meeting either.  I see I was in attendance because it's in the

 2     minutes, but to tell you the truth, I don't know what it is.  Is there a

 3     mistake in there?  I said -- actually, I swore to tell the truth and

 4     nothing but the truth, and what I'm saying is 100 per cent truth.  If I

 5     don't remember it, you have to accept it.

 6        Q.   So you don't remember -- you don't remember that you were --

 7             MS. EDGERTON:  And if we could go over to -- slide over to the

 8     next page in B/C/S --

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Line 20 in the transcript, the

11     witness said:

12             "Even if there had been such a thing, there's nothing in dispute.

13     Even if Karadzic's order had existed, I don't see anything in dispute

14     there."

15             And he said also:

16             "You have to accept that I may have forgotten things, that there

17     are things that I don't remember."

18             That's on page 35.

19             I'm again asking the witness to speak slowly.  I am sure that the

20     interpreters are having a very hard time in that.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  Shall we take a break if it is convenient?

22             MS. EDGERTON:  Oh, of course.  Thank you.

23             JUDGE KWON:  When we return, I would like you to speak very slow,

24     Mr. Djukanovic.

25             We'll resume at 11.00.

Page 36176

 1                           --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.

 2                           --- On resuming at 11.02 a.m.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Please continue, Ms. Edgerton.

 4             MS. EDGERTON:  Thank you.

 5        Q.   Mr. Djukanovic, before we broke, Dr. Karadzic noted that on the

 6     transcript you effectively disputed any order from Dr. Karadzic having

 7     issued on the 18th of October.  You said, "I don't see any kind of paper.

 8     Is there proof that there was an order?"

 9             So I'd like to show you some proof, all right?

10             MS. EDGERTON:  Could we have a look at 65 ter number 03322.  It's

11     a telegram from Dr. Karadzic.

12             MR. ROBINSON:  Can you check the number?

13             THE REGISTRAR:  Ms. Edgerton, I think you meant P332.

14             MS. EDGERTON:  Thank you.  I'm sure I must have.  Thank you,

15     Mr. Robinson.

16             No.  Let me -- indulge me for a moment and I'll speak with

17     Mr. Reid.  And in the meanwhile I can go to another document,

18     65 ter number 00964, and I hope I've got that number right.

19        Q.   This is, Mr. Djukanovic, a telegram from Dr. Karadzic to the

20     Municipal Board of the SDS in Zavidovici, and it says:

21             "... I," pursuant to statutory authorisations, "hereby announce

22     the SDS state of emergency mandatory for all its organs, members, and

23     personnel in the authorities.  You will receive daily instructions on

24     measures regarding the state of emergency ..."

25             And it's dated 18 October 1991, the same date as the orders, the

Page 36177

 1     minutes of the emergency meeting of the Bratunac Municipal Board of the

 2     SDS that we have been talking about.

 3             Do you maintain that the Bratunac SDS received no orders from

 4     Dr. Karadzic?

 5        A.   May I?  May I?

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I stated that I had never seen

 8     this.  I never received any orders from Dr. Radovan Karadzic.  Now that

 9     you have shown this to me, I considered a telegram did arrive at the

10     municipal -- Municipal Board in Zavidovici, if this is indeed authentic,

11     and I don't doubt it.  I'm not disputing that that happened, but I did

12     not see it, and I am testifying on my own behalf.  It was a matter of

13     debate at the meeting of the Municipal Board, and I could also see that

14     from the document that you showed me, everything that we saw in the

15     minutes where it says that we decided on a plebiscite.  Actually, it was

16     a referendum of the Serbian people, and I believe that before that I had

17     said that we decided to stay in Yugoslavia, and that was the topic of our

18     discussion at the meeting of the Municipal Board.  I do not dispute that.

19             I do not dispute the fact that you asked me nothing about, but I

20     suppose you will, that I became a member of the Crisis Staff that was set

21     up -- or, rather, there was a proposal to establish the Crisis Staff.

22     You will probably have a document to show me when it became operational.

23     I am not denying the fact that as the president of the Municipal Board,

24     by virtue of that position I automatically became a member of the

25     Crisis Staff.  I don't see anything in dispute there.  I don't see us

Page 36178

 1     contradicting each other in any way.  You asked --

 2        Q.   Mr. Djukanovic --

 3        A.   -- me whether we received or not -- yes, I'm with you.  I'm

 4     listening.

 5        Q.   My question was whether you maintained that the SDS board in

 6     Bratunac received no orders from Dr. Karadzic, having seen this document

 7     and having looked at the minutes relating to the order of

 8     18 October 1991.  And your answer was about personally receiving orders.

 9     My question is about the SDS board for Bratunac.

10        A.   Well, yes.  Well, listen, let me tell you, when I said that I

11     never received anything from President Karadzic I was speaking on my own

12     behalf.  When it comes to the Municipal Board, it was Miroslav Deronjic

13     who conveyed messages to us, and I told you that after such a long time I

14     could not remember the course of the meeting itself.  I can't tell you

15     that I remember what Miroslav told us.  However, based on the document

16     that you have just shown me, I can see that Miroslav was the one who put

17     us abreast of the situation, that we accept his report, and that based on

18     that we selected organs for the referendum.  Like, for example, you --

19     Jovan Nikolic and then members of the executive staff -- or, rather, the

20     Crisis Staff, I don't know what you want to call it.  Some members were

21     chosen, and I was among those people.  This is correct.

22             So I don't know.  I don't see that there is any contradiction

23     there between the two of us.  I don't see us being at diametrically

24     opposite positions.  I'm only telling you that I did not see

25     Dr. Karadzic's order.  It arrived in Zavidovici, and if it arrived in

Page 36179

 1     Bratunac, it must have reached the hands of the president of the board.

 2     There's nothing in dispute there.  We did opt for a referendum in order

 3     to stay in Yugoslavia and that was contrary to the attempts of the other

 4     two peoples who wanted to secede from Yugoslavia.  They as peoples wanted

 5     to separate Bosnia and Herzegovina from the rest of the state.

 6             MS. EDGERTON:  Could I have this document, please, as a

 7     Prosecution exhibit.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  We'll receive it.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P6238, Your Honours.

10             MS. EDGERTON:

11        Q.   So along this line, when you at paragraph 27 of your statement

12     said you were not aware that the party leadership, politicians, or

13     President Karadzic himself sent any plans to municipalities referring to

14     some Variants A and B, were you speaking in terms of your own personal

15     knowledge?

16        A.   Well, I was an important member of the SDS.  After all, I was a

17     member of the Municipal Board.  I was the President of the Executive

18     Board.  I was a member of the political and executive authorities there,

19     so I should have been aware of that.  I'm telling the whole truth, and in

20     my statement I stated that I had never heard of any plans A, B, although

21     I believe that Miroslav would have informed me about the existence of

22     such a plan if there was indeed such a plan.  That's why I'm surprised by

23     the fact that I did not receive the paper that you are showing me for

24     municipality of Zavidovici.  I'm sure that I would have been given that

25     paper if there had been some plans in place as you are putting to me.  I

Page 36180

 1     should have been abreast.  I should have known, but I didn't.

 2             MS. EDGERTON:  Let's go back to 65 ter number 00603, minutes of

 3     the meetings of the Municipal Assembly of Bratunac municipality, English

 4     translation page 12.

 5             MR. ROBINSON:  Excuse me.  These minutes are actually identified

 6     as the minutes of the Assembly of the SDS party, not the Bratunac

 7     municipality.

 8             MS. EDGERTON:  Apologies.  And I accept your correction.

 9             English page 12.  And rather than count the B/C/S page, I'll give

10     you the ERN number that appears at the top of the page.  It's 02192721.

11        Q.   Now, these, Mr. Djukanovic, are minutes of a meeting of the

12     Bratunac SDS Municipal Board, dated 23 December 1991, and it's a meeting

13     to consider the material from the SDS Presidency in Sarajevo.  A decision

14     was reached to form the Serbian BiH, Bosnia and Herzegovina.  This -- it

15     refers to two variants, A and B, which were proposed.  For Bratunac, the

16     Variant B was envisaged.  Second level of organisation.

17             Now, Mr. Djukanovic, as an important member, as you've just

18     described yourself, of the SDS in Bratunac, who would have seen, as

19     you've just said, this document, and being confronted now with the

20     minutes where the document was discussed, how can you maintain that you

21     never heard about the Variant A and B document?

22        A.   Well, you're trying to say that I am not telling the truth, but I

23     did tell the truth, and I swore that I would tell the truth.  I really

24     wasn't aware of any plans A or B.  I am looking at the minutes.  I don't

25     know whether I attended that meeting.  But I can see that there is

Page 36181

 1     reference to some duty, detail, a Crisis Staff.  I did tell you that I'd

 2     been elected to a Crisis Staff.  That's a fact.  In my view, that was

 3     upon the insistence of Mr. Miroslav Deronjic.  Please do not make me

 4     refer to dead people.  I don't want to say anything bad about that

 5     person, but as I've told you, Miroslav sometimes --

 6        Q.   I'm not asking you to refer to dead people.  I'm asking you --

 7     I'm asking you how in your capacity, if you were as in the know as you

 8     claim to be, you, confronted with these minutes, now maintain you never

 9     heard of the Variant A and B document?

10             THE INTERPRETER:  Impossible to translate.

11             MS. EDGERTON:

12        Q.   Could you repeat your comment, please.

13        A.   Miroslav Deronjic was one of the vice-presidents.  There's

14     nothing to repeat.  Miroslav Deronjic was a member of the SDS Presidency

15     in Sarajevo, and this seems to be discussing materials from the SDS

16     Presidency in Sarajevo.  And as it says here, he said something that I

17     cannot read.  He presented the material and then they moved on to item 1.

18     A decision was made on the establishment of the Serbian Republic of

19     Bosnia and Herzegovina.  Two variants are envisaged, A and B.  For us

20     Variant B was envisaged and in terms of the level of organisation.

21     Believe me, I don't remember this.  I don't know what these Variants A

22     and B are.  What does this refer to?  I cannot establish any links.

23             I said in my statement that I was not aware of the existence of

24     any variants and especially not of the fact that we were supposed to fall

25     under Variant B.  I really don't have a clue.

Page 36182

 1             And as for Zavidovici, Zavidovici is a very specific municipality

 2     which is in the federation, in the Central Bosnia-Herzegovina.  There may

 3     have been a state of emergency there.  I don't have a clue.  I don't know

 4     what the situation was like there at the moment because the chaos already

 5     started reigning supreme in the state.  And I really don't know that

 6     there were any Variants A and B for Bratunac.  I don't know what

 7     Variant A was as opposed to Variant B.  Please can you show me whether I

 8     attended this session of the Municipal Council.  Is that the same session

 9     and --

10             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter did not hear the date.  Could

11     the witness please be instructed to slow down.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Can you tell me whether I attended

13     this meeting?  Did I make an intervention that would --

14             MS. EDGERTON:

15        Q.   Mr. Djukanovic -- Mr. Djukanovic --

16        A.   -- that would demonstrate that I --

17        Q.   The interpreters continue to have a difficult time following you

18     because you speak so quickly.  Could you please make an effort, for their

19     sake and the clarity of the record, to slow down.  And I would invite you

20     to focus on the questions, because you seem to have a tendency to answer

21     things that are not posed to you.

22             Now, you said that if this had been concerning some official

23     party document, you would have known about it, and you said that in your

24     statement.  So --

25        A.   That is correct.

Page 36183

 1        Q.   Because you've not heard of this document you think it's not an

 2     official party document even though the Crisis Staff that you became a

 3     member was determined to be constituted at this 23 December meeting

 4     pursuant to these instructions?

 5             So you became a member of the Crisis Staff.  The Crisis Staff was

 6     formed, and you became a member on the basis of an unofficial document?

 7        A.   I don't know whether I was already a member.  It stems from this

 8     that this was just a proposal.  I'm surprised by the fact that I'm at the

 9     last place in that Crisis Staff.  I believe that I occupied a place that

10     would have been closer to the top.  I can see that everybody is above me.

11     I am at the bottom of that list.  I don't even know whether I attended

12     that meeting but I claim that I am not aware of any A or B variants.

13     This is your key question.  This is a key issue here; right?  And I have

14     already answered that I am not aware of Variant A or B.  This is what you

15     asked me.  And as for me being a member of the Crisis Staff, I was a

16     member.

17             There was a proposal on the table.  It was meant to be -- become

18     operational in a state of emergency.

19        Q.   Let's go -- let's leave this document and go to another meeting,

20     because --

21             JUDGE KWON:  If you tender this page, we'll admit it.

22             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours --

23             MS. EDGERTON:  Oh.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  -- it's already in evidence as Exhibit P2598.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Oh, yes.

Page 36184

 1             MS. EDGERTON:

 2        Q.   You know, Mr. Djukanovic, this document, this Variant A and B

 3     document, was recovered in locations like Livno, and that's P3470; the

 4     Boksit office at the Holiday Inn, and that's P960; a briefcase found in

 5     Dr. Karadzic's apartment, P005.  This Chamber has received evidence from

 6     Defence witnesses that this document was distributed to Mr. Grujic, the

 7     SDS president in Zvornik, and that's T 17227.  It's received evidence

 8     from witnesses that it was implemented by the SDS party in locations like

 9     Ilidza, in Sarajevo; that's T 35210 and T 12952.  And Dr. Karadzic

10     himself in 1995, at the 50th Assembly session, and you said you were an

11     assemblyman - and that's P970, pages 316 in English and 970 in B/C/S -

12     specifically referred to this document.  He said:

13             "You will remember the A and B Variants.  In the B variant, where

14     we were in the minority, 20 per cent, 15 per cent, we had set up a

15     government and a brigade, a unit, no matter what size, but there was a

16     detachment with a commander," and then further he says, "distribution of

17     weapons was carried out thanks to the JNA."

18             So for a man as integrated in the SDS and municipality structures

19     as you were, as influential as you claim to be, Mr. Djukanovic, it rings

20     hollow your assertion that you had never heard of the Variant A and B

21     document, particularly so when it's discussed during a meeting of the

22     Bratunac SDS Municipal Board short days after it was distributed in

23     Sarajevo.

24             So, Mr. Djukanovic, did you hear about it or didn't you?

25        A.   I've already told you that I did not hear of the Variants A and

Page 36185

 1     B.  I don't know what was going on in Livno.  I'm testifying on my own

 2     behalf.  I don't know what you found in Livno and Zvornik, what kind of

 3     documents.  I would like you to show me --

 4        Q.   So your answer is no.  Your answer is no.

 5        A.   My answer is that I did not know of the A and B Variant plan.

 6     That's my answer.

 7        Q.   Okay.  We'll move on.  Now, you spoke in your statement about the

 8     armed soldiers --

 9        A.   Of course.

10        Q.   -- who arrived in Bratunac in April 1992, and they moved into the

11     Hotel Fontana, and that was in paragraph 29.  And in paragraph 31 you

12     said:

13             "To this day, I do not know who brought that unit to Bratunac."

14             So as I understand your evidence then, this is -- by that point

15     in time in April, this is after the division of the police; correct?

16        A.   Correct.

17        Q.   A --

18        A.   No, no.  The police was split later.  You're saying that a group

19     of soldiers, some 20 of them, were billeted in Fontana Hotel after the

20     split in the police.  As far as I know, the split in the police came

21     later.  So it seems to me that the link that you're establishing is

22     wrong.  The police was divided later.

23        Q.   How about I ask you the question another way.  So your evidence,

24     integrated into the municipal government structures as you were, is that

25     you don't know who brought these paramilitaries in.  Mr. Djukanovic, it

Page 36186

 1     was you who brought them in, wasn't it?  It was the SDS board from

 2     Bratunac who was most active in the preparations for the organisation of

 3     the Serbian people in Bratunac.  And it was you, together with

 4     Mr. Deronjic, who facilitated their arrival into the town.  Isn't that

 5     correct?

 6        A.   Not correct.  I apologise for telling you that you're not telling

 7     the truth.  It is simply not correct.  It's simply not true.  Those

 8     people came from somewhere, and they just turned up in front of

 9     Fontana Hotel one morning.  None of us had known about their arrival, and

10     I claim that with full responsibility.  Maybe somebody knew, but I as

11     somebody, as a factor in the authorities, in the state, I didn't know

12     about that.  I was surprised that not even Mr. Deronjic or Mr. Nikolic or

13     anybody in my vicinity knew about that.  None of the members of that

14     so-called Crisis Staff, which was never established -- or, rather, it was

15     just a proposal before the war activities started.  Some people arrived.

16     Nobody knew them, and their commander's name was Zan, and I put it very

17     nicely in my statement.  That man invited me and Deronjic, Nijaz Dubicic,

18     Mirsad Kavazbasic, the president of the SDA, the president of the

19     Assembly, and the president of Srebrenica municipality, Besim Ibisevic,

20     he invited us to a meeting.

21        Q.   Now you're repeating your statement, so we'll move on.  And you

22     accuse me of not telling the truth, but I'll tell you why I asked the

23     question, because on the 6th of May, 1992, General Mladic,

24     General Mladic, received information from General Mandaric -- and I'll

25     let you have a look where he recorded that information.  It's in P1477,

Page 36187

 1     and it's General Mladic's notebook on 6 May 1992.

 2             MS. EDGERTON:  If we could go to the B/C/S typewritten page.

 3     That would be page 258, and the English pages are 253 to 255.

 4        Q.   Now, on that date, General Mladic noted -- he was getting a

 5     briefing on the situation from General Mandaric.  Nikola Mandaric,

 6     Mr. Djukanovic, at that time was the JNA 1st Military District Chief of

 7     Staff.  And Mandaric says on 6th of May, a front has opened up on the

 8     Drina.  In Bratunac, two representatives of the SDS are killing all

 9     Muslims by slitting their throats.  Rodoljub Djukanovic, the president of

10     the SDS, and Rodoljub [sic] Deronjic, two detachments from Bratunac TO,

11     they brought in all the cut-throats from Vukovar and killed everyone they

12     laid their hands on in Hranca near Milici.

13             So I asked the question because the JNA Chief of Staff for the

14     1st Military District was telling General Mladic he had some information

15     to the contrary.  It was you who actually facilitated their arrival into

16     Bratunac, wasn't it, Mr. Djukanovic?

17        A.   Believe me that nothing here that I see, I see this is some

18     working book of General Mladic.  Hranca is not in Bratunac.  This is all

19     kind of mish-mash.  It has nothing to do with the truth, and to tell you

20     frankly, neither I nor Mr. Deronjic facilitated anyone's arrival.  The

21     war spilled over into Bosnia from Croatia, and these people came on their

22     own, this whirlwind of war, and I don't think this is true.  I'm not sure

23     that this was actually written by General Mladic.  I don't know who fed

24     him this information.  And General Mandaric never came to Bratunac.

25             And the use of such words such as cut-throat are such ugly,

Page 36188

 1     heinous words and I would never use them in my life.  Not only I, nobody

 2     amongst us was prepared to commit any crime of that nature.  I already

 3     said nobody issued any instruction telling us to behave in that manner.

 4             All these people didn't have proper names.  They all came with

 5     nicknames like Zan, Rambo, Djumbo [phoen], Makedonac [phoen],

 6     Bugarin [phoen].  There were all nationalities among them, including

 7     Muslims, and I tend to believe that there were even Croats among them.

 8     It was a motley crew.  But to tell you the truth, there were no people

 9     that we had known before and that we had invited to come over.

10        Q.   I want to go to another area which is probably going to take me

11     about the next ten minutes, and it's because you said, oddly enough, in

12     your statement that in the -- as far as I can remember, between April and

13     July 1992, and that was at paragraph 51, there was practically no

14     communication between Bratunac and Pale, or if it did exist, it was

15     irregular, difficult, and inadequate.  But I want to show you, actually,

16     how well informed Dr. Karadzic and the political and military leadership

17     of the RS were about the situation in Bratunac during this period.

18             MS. EDGERTON:  If we could go to P1478.  That's another notebook

19     of General Mladic, and I'd like to go to -- first to English pages 93 and

20     B/C/S typewritten page 93 as well, please.

21             This records General Mladic's notes on consultations on

22     6 June 1992, on the military and political situation in the Serbian

23     Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina with leading representatives of the

24     state and political leadership.  So if we flip over to page 94 -- oh,

25     now, I don't need the handwritten pages.

Page 36189

 1             Now, we see that Dr. Karadzic is president -- present at this

 2     meeting with General Mladic.  And if we go over to page 95 in both

 3     versions, we see that Mr. Koljevic, Dr. Koljevic -- the next page in the

 4     B/C/S, please, as well.  Dr. Koljevic was there as well.  And if you flip

 5     over to page 98 in English and page 97 in the typewritten B/C/S, you see

 6     that Velibor Ostojic is present.

 7        Q.   And after that, Mr. Djukanovic, you'll see, if I was to show you

 8     the whole meeting, a range of political and municipal leaders were

 9     present at this meeting.  But if we can now go over to page 101 in both

10     languages, there's a briefing there from Bratunac municipality, and it

11     says:

12             "There are no Muslims left in Bratunac municipality.  It's a

13     fully liberated town.  There are even no villages which cut off the

14     roads."

15             So contrary to what you say, in June 1992, when you say

16     communication is poor, Dr. Karadzic and his political colleagues as well

17     as his military commanders were fully apprised of the situation in

18     Bratunac, weren't they?

19        A.   What I'm looking at here, when it says "from Bratunac

20     municipality" and then it says "Bratunac is a fully liberated town,"

21     frankly speaking, I don't know.  Even though I would have liked to have

22     been informed about everything that was going on, for example, I wanted

23     to know everything about the trial of Professor Miroslav Deronjic, this

24     resembles a statement that he made about his brief in the political

25     leadership.  But you have to bear in mind that Miroslav Deronjic has

Page 36190

 1     struck a deal with you, the Prosecution, and that he sometimes went even

 2     further from what you asked him to do because he had been ordered to do

 3     so in order to save his family.  He believed to have been punished --

 4        Q.   Mr. Djukanovic, how does that --

 5        A.   -- too harshly, but I don't know what --

 6        Q.   -- answer my question?  How does that answer my question?  My

 7     question --

 8        A.   Well, you're saying --

 9        Q.   My question --

10        A.   -- that you are well informed.

11        Q.   My question was this:  Contrary to what you say was the case in

12     June 1992, Dr. Karadzic and his political and military leadership were

13     fully apprised of the situation in Bratunac.  Isn't that the case?

14        A.   Well, look.  Maybe you should better ask Dr. Radovan Karadzic

15     about this, because I really don't know whether he was so well informed.

16     This resembles Miroslav Deronjic's statement to the effect that he

17     managed to break through to Sarajevo --

18        Q.   Mr. Djukanovic, why do you keep referring to Mr. Deronjic when I

19     never ask you a question about Mr. Deronjic?  Not one.  I asked you a

20     question about communication because you said that communication was

21     poor.  And I'm going to ask you one more question about communication.

22     We're going to keep with this diary for a minute.

23             MS. EDGERTON:  Let's go to page 246 in e-court, English, and

24     page 244 of the B/C/S typewritten version.  And that records a lengthy

25     meeting on 30 June 1992, that Dr. Karadzic and General Mladic had in

Page 36191

 1     Zvornik, and that included the presidents of Bratunac, Zvornik,

 2     Vlasenica, Sekovici, and Srebrenica, along with military commanders.  And

 3     you see at number 3 of the attendees, Mr. Simic was there.

 4             So let's go over to what Mr. Simic says at page 256 in B/C/S and

 5     258 in English.

 6        Q.   Mr. Simic --

 7        A.   Are you referring to Ljubisa Simic, the president of Bratunac

 8     municipality?  Oh, yes.

 9        Q.   Mr. Simic says:

10             "According to the last census, it was 64-36 in favour of the

11     Muslims.  In Bratunac municipality, we now have two Muslims."

12             So any -- Mr. -- Mr. Djukanovic, any expression or view on your

13     part that communication was poor and -- with Pale and that it might have

14     been difficult or inadequate is actually completely unsustainable, isn't

15     it, Mr. Djukanovic?  The municipal and military leadership here on the

16     30th of June, precisely when you said there was practically no

17     communication between Bratunac and Pale, are meeting with the

18     Supreme Commander and the Commander-in-Chief and telling him there's only

19     two Muslims left in Bratunac.

20        A.   I didn't say that there was no communication whatsoever.  I said

21     that we had difficulties, and it's not in dispute.  That's what I stated

22     in my statement.  But I cannot say that there were no communications at

23     all.  The president came over in 1993 to help UNPROFOR.  So he did

24     somehow find a way of communicating with us.  As far as I can see, I

25     wasn't present at this meeting, but that is immaterial.  If Ljubisa Simic

Page 36192

 1     was there, that's the main point.  And you said that this meeting took

 2     place in Zvornik?  Is that what you said?  Was that in Zvornik?

 3        Q.   Yes.

 4        A.   Yes, in Zvornik.  All right.  I said that communication was

 5     difficult and almost nonexistent, but I never said that there was no

 6     communication at all.  You cannot make me say that, because that is not

 7     true.

 8             MS. EDGERTON:  Thank you.  That will be all from me,

 9     Your Honours.  I have nothing further.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  Thank you.

11             Mr. Karadzic, do you have re-examination?

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Excellency.  Let's start

13     with the most recent question about communications.

14                           Re-examination by Mr. Karadzic:

15        Q.   [Interpretation] In paragraph 42, Mr. Djukanovic, you say that

16     during that period there was no communication with Pale.  You speak about

17     Glogova in May.  What did you mean by saying "in that period"?

18        A.   Well, that was the period, Mr. President, when there was fiercest

19     fighting in the area of Bratunac.  As far as I know, the passage of the

20     JNA, which we considered the only legitimate armed force, was hindered

21     because everybody else was considered by us as illegal and paramilitary

22     formations.

23             There was an agreement between our local president - and I hope

24     that the Prosecutor will not accuse me of referring to Mr. Deronjic

25     again - but the passage of an army was hindered at one point in the

Page 36193

 1     village of Hranca that resulted in dead and wounded.  And at one time a

 2     decision was made to straight the front line in the area of Glogova,

 3     which is now a Bosniak village.

 4        Q.   We'll come to that.  We are now on page 255 at the moment.  Does

 5     it say here that Captain Izet work for the TO, that Captain Todorovic

 6     received a salary, that there was led in Svetozarevo [phoen], et cetera.

 7     What was the nationality of Captain Izet?

 8        A.   He was a Muslim who was fighting on our side, as far as I know.

 9     If we are thinking about the same thing.  I know that there was an Izet

10     who was fighting alongside Serbs in this area where Captain Todorovic

11     operated, and this is all I know about this.

12        Q.   Can I kindly ask you to look at what Mr. Simic is saying:

13             "We are standing in the same place for a long time, and we have

14     become lax."

15             Is Mr. Simic actually complaining or boasting that there were two

16     Muslims in the municipality?

17        A.   I believe that he was expressing regret over that fact.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Ms. Edgerton.

19             MS. EDGERTON:  Thank you.  It calls for a completely speculative

20     answer, Your Honours.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is not guesswork.  We were all

22     sorry for all the Muslim families that had to leave Bratunac because they

23     feared for their safety, and they did it on their own initiative.

24             JUDGE KWON:  I agree with Ms. Edgerton.  The Chamber agrees with

25     Ms. Edgerton's observation.

Page 36194

 1             Please move on, Mr. Karadzic.

 2             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   Did you know Mr. Simic?

 4        A.   You mean President Ljubisa Simic?

 5        Q.   Yes.

 6        A.   Of course I knew him.

 7        Q.   Did you two co-operate?

 8        A.   Yes, we did, and we had good co-operation.

 9        Q.   Did you discuss the issue of the departure of both Muslims and

10     Serbs?

11        A.   Yes, Mr. President.  We discussed these topics and other topics

12     as well, including military logistics, the departure of Muslims from

13     Bratunac, and the topic of providing assistance to anyone regardless of

14     whether they were Serbs or Muslims.  And we selflessly provided this aid

15     without expecting any commendations or citations on expressions of

16     gratitude.  So that was a proper way to do things.

17             We were sort of authorities in that period.  We were not proper

18     authorities, and we did our best to help people as much as we could.

19             I know that Mr. Simic, with regard to Mr. Izet, who is

20     unfortunately deceased, he provided him in a car -- with a car and

21     offered him to take some people with him.  Unfortunately, he left on his

22     own, whereas the people gathered outside the municipal building.  They

23     were asking for help.  They wanted buses to be provided to them.  They

24     wanted help for their children.  They asked for food, and we did what we

25     could.

Page 36195

 1        Q.   Thank you.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 3             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   Did the two of you share the same attitude towards the relocation

 5     or the departure of the population, and were you aware of what I thought

 6     about that?

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  Yes, Ms. Edgerton.

 8             MS. EDGERTON:  That question, in my submission, Your Honours,

 9     goes outside of the cross-examination.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Correct.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, can we have, then, page 98.

12     Let's see what this document says or what is recorded in this document.

13     98, 98.  It seems that my words are being quoted.  Just a moment.  Can we

14     scroll down page 98.  Possibly this is the beginning of my contribution.

15     We need, actually, the previous page, the bottom of the previous page.

16     Two pages back.  One more, please.  We have different numbers on the top

17     and the bottom of the pages.  Now, this is the correct page.  On the top

18     we have 96, and on the bottom we have 97.

19             Can we now have the next page.

20             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   Can you please read the very end of my contribution.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic.  The -- Ms. Edgerton raised this,

23     discussed this with the witness to hear about the lack of communication

24     he referred to in his statement, not in relation to the subject matter.

25     So could you tell us how it arises from the line of cross-examination of

Page 36196

 1     Ms. Edgerton?

 2             Mr. Robinson.

 3             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President.  Ms. Edgerton didn't just deal

 4     with that topic but the actual substance of what was conveyed to this

 5     witness as reflected in General Mladic's notebooks, two Muslims left in

 6     Bratunac, things like that.  I think this goes directly to show that --

 7     what Dr. Karadzic's position was and how that was also being conveyed to

 8     people in Bratunac.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  I think in that regard we can allow the

10     question.  Please proceed.

11             Ms. Edgerton, would you like to add anything?

12             MS. EDGERTON:  In a non-leading way, perhaps.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

15             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   Mr. Djukanovic, did you know what my position was concerning the

17     right of civilians, particularly with regard with their departure and

18     relocation?

19        A.   Mr. President, I was aware of your views from the very time when

20     the party was founded.  And it says here quite clearly we must not

21     pressure people to have displaced [as interpreted].  And I think this was

22     faithfully recorded, and we shared this same attitude.

23             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreters did not understand what

24     witness was saying.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Djukanovic.  Mr. Djukanovic.  Mr. Djukanovic,

Page 36197

 1     could you kindly repeat your answer from the start very slowly.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am aware of the president's

 3     position in this respect, and it says here, and I quote:

 4              "We must not exert pressure on the people to move."

 5             And that was the attitude that both the president and we shared.

 6             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   Thank you.  Now let's go back to the issue of communications.

 8     Did you as the president of the municipal government have any

 9     communication, and how often, either with me or anyone else at Pale at

10     the beginning of war, that is to say, prior to the 30th of June, because

11     this Mladic's note is dated the 30th of June, 1992?

12        A.   Mr. President, I said that we had poor communication and that as

13     far as I personally am concerned, I had communicated with you very

14     rarely, and I already said that.

15        Q.   Thank you.  Today on page 101 of this document it was recorded

16     that somebody said that Bratunac was a fully liberated town.  Can you

17     tell the Chamber what was the size of the territory in Bratunac that was

18     under your control on the 30th of June, 1992?

19        A.   The only territory we had under our control was the territory of

20     the town itself on the 30th of June.  And I think that only in the area

21     of Glogova and Hranca where it says that the passage of the JNA was

22     hindered was something that was altered.  I think that was under our

23     control as well with the exception of Kravica who had their own control

24     point because of the front line being criss-crossed.

25        Q.   It was not recorded that:

Page 36198

 1             "We did not have our internal communications working, let alone

 2     any communication with you in Pale."

 3             Can you please wait, because it was not recorded that you

 4     confirmed that this is correct, and let us both speak more slowly.

 5             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreters didn't hear the witness's

 6     answer.  Maybe if he would be kind enough to move closer to the mike.

 7             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   You were too quick.

 9        A.   I said I agree, President.

10        Q.   You were too quick again.

11        A.   It's a deal, Mr. President.

12        Q.   Thank you.  Did you confirm that this sentence which I quoted was

13     not recorded in the transcript, that you said, "We did not have any

14     internal communication, let alone communication with you in Pale"?  Do

15     you confirm that?

16        A.   Yes, I do.

17        Q.   Thank you.  On page 48 you were asked about the notes and what

18     General Mandaric told General Mladic on the 6th of May, 1992.  Whose

19     generals were those two in that period on the 6th of May?

20        A.   On the 6th of May the two were the JNA generals, because at that

21     time the Army of Republika Srpska had not yet been established.

22        Q.   What was the position and the attitude of the municipal

23     authorities at the time vis-a-vis the paramilitary formations that you

24     said appeared as volunteers initially and then continued to operate as

25     paramilitaries?

Page 36199

 1        A.   Our attitude was that they were undesirable elements in our

 2     territory.  We even adopted a decision to expel them from our area.

 3     However, people assembled, some say spontaneously, somebody said under

 4     someone's influence, but whatever the case may be, we were going through

 5     a difficult period, and we were at risk, and our own safety was in

 6     danger.  Some of these units remained in the area, but we respected the

 7     JNA as the only legitimate force.

 8             According to the information that we had, the JNA was given the

 9     dead-line of 17th of May to withdraw from Bosnia-Herzegovina.  According

10     to what they said, this deadline was extended up to the 29th of May, and

11     they abided by it.  I don't know who set up this deadline.

12        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Djukanovic.  I don't have too much time either.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we please have D3116.

14             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   So on the 6th of May, Mandaric had a talk with Mladic, probably

16     on the phone, in which he accused you and Deronjic of having brought in

17     these paramilitary formations and that the Serbs are cutting throats.

18        A.   I see he did, but what he said was not true.  It was not so.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The next page, please.  The one

20     after that.  We could see a better page before.  I don't know what this

21     is.

22             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   In any case, I'll read it out in English.  Although you

24     understand English as well.

25             [In English] "Serbian Republic of BH, SAO Birac, Bratunac

Page 36200

 1     municipality, Crisis Staff, Bratunac 6th of May, 1992.

 2             "On the basis of the decision of the National Security Council of

 3     the Serbian Republic of BH, and pursuant to the SAO Birac Crisis Staff

 4     Decision, and Decision of the Commissioner of the Government of the

 5     Serbian Republic of BH for the Birac area, the Bratunac Municipality

 6     Crisis Staff hereby takes the following decision:

 7             "All paramilitary formations should leave the territory of

 8     Bratunac municipality by 1600 hours on 7th of May ..."

 9             [Interpretation] Perhaps the conditional "should" in the

10     translation is somewhat softer than the original, but in any case, do you

11     recall when issued this decision and whether this is the decision in

12     question?

13        A.   This is the one.

14        Q.   There's a more legible original, and I think the "should" should

15     have been translated as "must."

16        A.   Yes, must.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we next have D3117, please.

18             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   So we can see what sort of decisions you made prior to the

20     6th of May.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have the page where the text

22     of the decision is.

23             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   Did Mandaric ever come or spoke on the phone with any one of you

25     in Bratunac, with you, or that you learned of him talking to someone

Page 36201

 1     else?

 2        A.   No.  No one from the circle of people making up the Crisis Staff

 3     at the time, and I stand by it.  I didn't see him there ever either, and

 4     I didn't hear of his coming there or talking to anyone.  I don't know.

 5        Q.   So on the 1st of May, pursuant to a decision of the

 6     National Security Council of the Serbian Republic of BH on declaring an

 7     imminent threat of war and pursuant to the Crisis Staff decision and so

 8     on and so forth, you issued this order forbidding all paramilitary

 9     formations and illegal citizens, probably illegally armed citizens, to

10     act in the area of Bratunac municipality.  Do you recall having reached

11     this decision?

12        A.   I do.  I see that it was signed by Zoran Tesic.  He was one of

13     the members of the Crisis Staff.  He was probably standing in for

14     Miroslav at the time because he may have been away, but I do recall an

15     order of this kind being issued.

16        Q.   Thank you.  On page 45 of today's transcript, you were quoted --

17     or, actually, you were suggested that the Municipal Board of the SDS was

18     at its most active in preparing the Serbian people of Bratunac.  Can you

19     tell us what were the competencies of civilian authorities in the domain

20     of defence at the time the JNA still existed in Bosnia and Herzegovina?

21     What could you and dared do?

22        A.   Believe me, it was a period of time when even some kind of

23     military administration should have been imposed.  We as the civilian

24     authorities for them basically did not even exist, and we did not dare

25     meddle in military affairs.  It simply wouldn't work.  Not only that we

Page 36202

 1     didn't dare, but we shouldn't have.  The army is the army, and the

 2     civilian police stayed away as well.  That is my answer to your question.

 3             We tried to set up local authorities and some kind of

 4     administration to maybe provide logistics and food for the army.  That

 5     was the thrust of our activity.  But as for any important decisions that

 6     would have to do with combat activities and operations, well, we didn't

 7     take part in it.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  Were you the head of the executive branch in Bratunac

 9     before the war?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   Not only the Variants A and B or did you receive any kind of

12     party documents containing instructions or orders as the executive

13     branch?  Did you receive anything of the kind from the party?

14        A.   I've said already, and I'm prepared to be held criminally liable

15     in case this is disproven, I assert that this is the truth.  We did -- I

16     did not.

17        Q.   Thank you.  Did you establish the Crisis Staff pursuant to the

18     decision or was it a telegram of the 23rd of December?  Or how did you go

19     about establishing the Crisis Staff and when?

20        A.   The Crisis Staff was formed later on.  I'm not saying that there

21     weren't certain proposals as we could see in the minutes, but the

22     Crisis Staff was formed precisely when the crisis began, when the first

23     casualties in Bratunac occurred and people were upset.  Serbs were

24     fleeing to Serbia, Muslims were fleeing too, and we were receiving

25     refugees from Zenica.  It was a time of crisis where we had to have a

Page 36203

 1     working body which would attempt to address the crisis, to alleviate it,

 2     or to perhaps reach a better situation in order to establish the

 3     functioning of authorities and the rule of law.  That's what we were

 4     taught.  I had worked for 21 years in state administration by that time,

 5     so I was a long-standing civil servant, and many of us had previous

 6     experience.

 7             Ultimately, the Crisis Staff -- I'm sorry to expand, but it was

 8     comprised of teachers, high school teachers, such as Miroslav Deronjic.

 9     He was -- he even studied in France as an exceptional student.  He was

10     sent to teach there.  He could speak languages.  There was Ljubisav

11     Simic.  Then Tesic, who was a civil engineer.  Momir Nikolic, who was

12     indicted and sentenced before this court, he had a national defence

13     degree in -- from Sarajevo.  There was also Zoran Radic.  So we all did

14     what we knew how to do and we also had someone familiar with the laws of

15     war, international conventions, and he briefed us on all that so we could

16     decide on further action.

17        Q.   Thank you.  As regards a question concerning the Crisis Staff, we

18     did not find in the transcript something that you said, which was that

19     the ideas actually that there was a proclamation, a decision made to

20     establish a Crisis Staff --

21             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the interlocutors be asked to slow down.

22     We missed the last two interventions.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Again the transcript.

24             JUDGE KWON:  You are speaking too fast, both of you.

25             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

Page 36204

 1        Q.   So the question was:  Did you say today that the Crisis Staff

 2     became operational only upon the outbreak of the war?

 3        A.   That's what I said.

 4        Q.   Thank you.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now have this, P6238.  It's

 6     a telegram.  Sorry.  No.  No.  00603, 65 ter.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  What page, Mr. Karadzic?

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I need 26.  Page 26, line 12.  Oh,

 9     there it is.

10             MS. EDGERTON:  With respect, I still can't find in the transcript

11     where the witness is to have said what Dr. Karadzic alleges he said and

12     based this question on.  So I'm wondering where we're going with this,

13     especially as it doesn't seem to have arisen during the course of the

14     cross-examination.

15             JUDGE KWON:  I'm sorry, I don't follow your comment,

16     Ms. Edgerton.  Mr. Karadzic now wants to see the SDS Bratunac minutes

17     which you showed us.

18             MS. EDGERTON:  Yes.  I was going back to Dr. Karadzic's question

19     at page 62, line 5:

20             "As regards a question concerning the Crisis Staff, we didn't

21     find in the transcript something you said ..."

22             A decision, which was that the idea was -- yeah.  So I'm just --

23     and then Dr. Karadzic asked the witness to confirm:

24             "Did you say today that the Crisis Staff only became operational

25     on the outbreak of war," and the witness said, "That's what I said," and

Page 36205

 1     I can't find that anywhere in the transcript.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  I think that was the point of Mr. Karadzic's

 3     intervention.

 4             Could you help us, Mr. Karadzic.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes.  In line 6, 62, it says:

 6             "We did not find it in the transcript."

 7             What I said was that it didn't make it into the transcript, and I

 8     couldn't intervene, although I turned on my mike.  That is what was not

 9     recorded at the time when Mr. Djukanovic was talking about it.

10             Now, I made a mistake -- no, let's stay with this.

11             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   What is this a meeting of, the entire Municipal Board, the

13     Presidency of the Municipal Assembly?

14        A.   As far as I can see, these are the minutes of the Presidency of

15     the SDS Municipal Board in Bratunac.  It was their meeting.  It was a

16     smaller body, not the entire board.

17        Q.   Thank you.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have P6237, my mistake.

19     It's the same document, but then we need page 26.

20             JUDGE KWON:  I think we saw pages 55 and 56, and 66.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Precisely.  Apologies.  In the

22     transcript it's page 26, line 12, where it is stated that it was the

23     Municipal Assembly, and it was not the Municipal Assembly but the

24     Presidency of the party.

25             In any case, can we have the page where it is mentioned that the

Page 36206

 1     Crisis Staff was being formed, which is ERN number 021927 -- aha, the

 2     Serb version 9, the English 8.  Yes.  To the right, please.  Not left,

 3     right.

 4             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   At this session of the 25th of October, 1991, when you

 6     established the party Crisis Staff, did you establish it as per that or

 7     a -- an instruction of the 23rd of December or any kind of instruction of

 8     the Main Board?

 9        A.   No.  It was at our own initiative that we established it,

10     Mr. President.  When I say "at our own initiative," it may sound serious,

11     but it was dictated by the situation because we were forced to gather and

12     decide what to do.  By the time different kinds of things started taking

13     place such as the killings I have mentioned in my statement, there were

14     all sorts of things.  There was a rally at midnight, for example.  People

15     would set up demonstrations in Bratunac saying, "This is Bosnia, Serbs go

16     to Serbia," and some such things.  Our women took our children and fled

17     across the Drina.  These were difficult times, misfortunate times, but

18     the staff was established and became operational officially when the real

19     crisis broke out, which is what you said a moment ago did not make it

20     into the transcript.  By that time the paramilitaries had arrived and the

21     war was underway.

22        Q.   Thank you.  In this document that was admitted, we can see you

23     were a member.  Can you tell us -- on page 17 you were asked about

24     suspension.  Were you the only one or were there more people who were

25     suspended?

Page 36207

 1        A.   Together with me, I was one of 59 of those who were suspended.

 2     We were thrown out of the Main Board and People's Assembly.  At the

 3     moment I was a deputy of the People's Assembly.  And I was driven away

 4     from our work posts.  It lasted all the way until 2011 when the sanctions

 5     were stopped by the current High Representative.

 6             I apologise, Mr. President, to go off on a tangent in explaining

 7     my answer, but given the fact that we were sanctioned by the OHR, I think

 8     it was a body of the world government -- of the Security Council of the

 9     UN, we expected to receive some kind of satisfaction from our state or

10     from those who sanctioned us unjustly, but nothing of it followed.  And

11     even to date, since 2004, I have been in the same situation without work,

12     as if I am still under this sanction, as if I were still supporting you

13     back there as it was stated in that document.

14        Q.   Thank you.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have 65 ter 24810, which is

16     a decision by Lord Ashdown.  Page 3.

17             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   Did you receive the text of his decision and an explanation?

19        A.   That decision was delivered to me.  There was an accompanying

20     letter as well.  He personally addressed each and every one of us, and

21     there was another piece of paper that we received in which he says that

22     he had to do what he did.  He says in that that we were a member of a

23     support network.  We were portrayed as some sort of al-Qaeda.  I don't

24     know what the charges were against us exactly, but none of them were

25     true, but there was no reference to anything that happened during the

Page 36208

 1     war.  It was just you.

 2        Q.   You anticipated my next question.  After the Dayton Accords, were

 3     you certified to participate in the elections and in the public political

 4     life?

 5        A.   Yes, I was a candidate in the elections.  I was elected an MP.  I

 6     was a member of the Municipal Council.  I was engaged in politics.  I

 7     worked in the administration, and for a while I was the CO of an

 8     administrative organisation.  I was engaged in sales in the public

 9     sector.  However, after all those bans, all those rights were abolished,

10     and what I personally knew and what I could do well was administration.

11     I had spent a lot of time working in administration.  I had a lot of

12     experience.  I was even deprived of that.  And not only me but many of

13     the other people who still had the same status as they had when

14     Lord Ashdown made his decision.

15        Q.   Thank you.  Allow me to read this in English.  It will be

16     translated to you in Serbian.  Paragraph 4:

17             [In English] "For over a decade and throughout the war, the SDS

18     has held the reins of political power in Republika Srpska.  The entity's

19     failure to apprehend those indicted individuals in flagrant disregard of

20     Bosnia and Herzegovina's obligations under international law is,

21     therefore, a damning indictment of SDS's commitment to proper governance.

22     Given its dubious legacy as the political party founded by and initially

23     presided over by the chief ICTY indictee at large, Radovan Karadzic, it

24     was doubly incumbent upon SDS to effect expiation and rehabilitation by

25     proactively pursuing and bringing to book the erstwhile architects of its

Page 36209

 1     dubious -- odious policies which so disfigured the polity.  That it has

 2     not done so is a testament, at best, to its negligent abdication of

 3     governmental responsibility or, at worst, to its concerted will to

 4     obstruct peace implementation by clinging to vestiges (and figures) of

 5     its bankrupt past."

 6             [Interpretation] How did you understand this pearl of

 7     international justice and law?  Did you receive that among the documents

 8     that you were provided with?

 9        A.   Yes.  This was part of the decision.  What remains is just

10     bitterness, as one would popularly say.  I don't know what to say to

11     that, how to react.  We never obstructed the peace accords.  We were not

12     members of any support network.  These words are wrong, and the way

13     Lord Ashdown portrayed us, this is just wrong.  However, he was the main

14     interpreter of the Dayton Accords, and pursuant to the Bonn competencies

15     that do not arise from the Dayton Accords, he was given some rights - I

16     don't know who gave those rights to him - but he was entitled to punish

17     us and remove us from the public life, to humiliate us before ourselves

18     and before others.  He took away our jobs, friends, and everything else.

19     We want to take him to court in his country.  We will try to find funds,

20     although our situation is very dire, but from now on, this is going to be

21     our main mission, to arrive at the truth and to find justice for

22     ourselves.

23        Q.   Thank you.  And just one more question.  On page 37, you were

24     talking about a meeting, a meeting that took place on the

25     18th of October.  Did Mr. Deronjic mention a meeting, or did he show you

Page 36210

 1     a telegram or some other document, or did he just verbally convey to you

 2     what he had brought from the Main Board?

 3        A.   Mr. President, I already told you that I never received anything

 4     from you, either verbally or in writing.  On that occasion I did not

 5     receive anything in writing either.  Whatever is in the minutes, I

 6     already told you that I would attribute that to the agreement that he

 7     reached with the Prosecutor.

 8             To be honest, I'm not clear on anything in these minutes.

 9     Perhaps Deronjic just came up with it -- with that on top of his head.

10     Maybe I don't have the right to say that, Mr. President.  However, I

11     cannot establish any links with that meeting and the minutes.

12             And as for anything in writing and especially if we are talking

13     about the A and B plan, I didn't know anything about that.  I didn't see

14     anything in writing.  And the same goes for this Lukavac thing that

15     Ms. Prosecutor showed me.  I really didn't see anything of that kind

16     arriving in Bratunac municipality.

17        Q.   Thank you.  Thank you, Mr. Djukanovic, for having been a very

18     good executive power.  I am sorry for all your suffering.  Unfortunately,

19     I couldn't help you.  And you are right as rain and still you suffered.

20     Thank you for having testified here.

21        A.   Mr. President, I would like to say good-bye to you and everybody

22     else.  And if I may add another sentence.  I claim that I have told only

23     the truth and that the diaries and all the other things are wrong.  At

24     one moment I felt like I had been accused here, especially based on the

25     words that were used against me which were not only ugly but really

Page 36211

 1     pathetic and sad.  So much from me.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  That concludes your evidence.  Thank you

 3     for your coming to The Hague to give it.  Now you are free to go,

 4     Mr. Djukanovic.

 5             Given the time we'll take a break now.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  We'll resume at 1.15.

 8                           [The witness withdrew]

 9                           --- Recess taken at 12.28 p.m.

10                           --- On resuming at 1.16 p.m.

11                           [The witness entered court]

12             JUDGE KWON:  Would the witness make the solemn declaration.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I?  I solemnly declare that I

14     will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. Micic.  Please be seated and make

16     yourself comfortable.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

18                           WITNESS:  DUSAN MICIC

19                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

20             JUDGE KWON:  Before you commence your evidence, Mr. Micic, I must

21     draw your attention to a certain Rule that we have here at the

22     International Tribunal, that is, Rule 90(E) of Rules of Procedure and

23     Evidence.  Under this Rule, you may object to answering any question from

24     Mr. Karadzic, the Prosecution, or even from the Judges if you believe

25     that your answer might incriminate you in a criminal offence.  In this

Page 36212

 1     context, "incriminate" means saying something that would amount to an

 2     admission of guilt for a criminal offence or saying something that might

 3     provide evidence that you might have committed a criminal offence.

 4     However, should you think that an answer might incriminate you and as a

 5     consequence you refuse to answer the question, I must let you know that

 6     the Tribunal has the power to compel you to answer the question, but in

 7     that situation, the Tribunal would ensure that your testimony compelled

 8     in such circumstances would not be used in any case that might be laid

 9     against you save and except the offence of giving false testimony.

10             Do you understand what I have just told you, Mr. Micic?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I understand.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

13             Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

15                           Examination by Mr. Karadzic:

16        Q.   [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Micic.

17        A.   Good afternoon, Mr. President.

18        Q.   I have two requests upon you.  The first one is to make a long

19     pause between my question and your answer, and the second is to speak

20     slowly, approximately at this rate, although I cannot be a role model,

21     because I often speak very fast.  Please bear these two things in mind.

22             If you're looking at the transcript in front of you, when the

23     cursor stops and a capital letter A appears on the screen, that's your

24     cue for starting answering.

25             Did you provide my Defence team a statement?

Page 36213

 1        A.   Yes, I did.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like to call up 1D7972 in

 3     e-court.

 4             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   On the screen before you, do you see that statement of yours?

 6        A.   Yes, but can it be zoomed in a little, please?

 7        Q.   Is this the statement that you provided?

 8        A.   Yes, this is the statement that I provided.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  Did you read the statement, and did you also sign it?

10        A.   Yes, I did.

11        Q.   This is still too fast.  Please make a longer pause.

12             Is this your signature, sir?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Thank you.  Is this statement a true reflection of what you said

15     to my Defence team?

16        A.   I believe so.

17        Q.   If I were to put the same questions to you today, would your

18     answers be the same?

19        A.   Yes.  I believe that in essence they would be the same.

20        Q.   Do you have a hard copy of your statement in front of you?

21        A.   You mean on paper?

22        Q.   Yes.

23        A.   No, I don't have it.

24        Q.   We will ask the Trial Chamber to be provided with a hard copy

25     that you will be able to peruse if some paragraphs from it are mentioned

Page 36214

 1     in any of the questions.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to

 3     tender this statement into evidence.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Any objection, Ms. Edgerton?

 5             MS. EDGERTON:  No.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  We'll admit it.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D3196, Your Honours.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have no questions for this

 9     witness at this moment.  My examination-in-chief is thus over.

10             [In English] Ah, sorry, sorry.  I forgot to read summary.

11     [Interpretation] I'm now going to read a short summary of

12     Mr. Dusan Micic's statement in English.

13             [In English] Dusan Micic was born on 10th of March, 1960, in

14     Slapasnica, Bratunac municipality.  He was a military policeman in the

15     Bratunac Territorial Defence from May 1992 to March 1993.  Then he was

16     the commander of the 3rd Platoon of the 1st Company of PJP, police

17     formation.

18             The military police was located in the old Vuk Karadzic primary

19     school.  One day when Mr. Dusan Micic passed by the school, he saw some

20     soldiers whom he did not know taking people in and out of the school.  He

21     did not interfere, because they were in the JNA uniforms.  He did not see

22     anyone beating those people or that they were injured.  His commander

23     warned them on one -- or that no one should go to that school, otherwise

24     would be dismissed from the police immediately.

25             Another day Dusan Micic and his colleague were ordered to escort

Page 36215

 1     two buses of Muslims to Luke near Kladanj.  They arrived at Luke until

 2     they reached the Muslim line and a check-point without soldiers.  The

 3     people got off the bus -- buses and continued by foot.  They stayed until

 4     those people left.  Two days later, he heard that all the Muslims were

 5     driven away from the school to Pale one night.  His police had nothing to

 6     do with that school while those Muslims were there.

 7             In July 1995, he and his unit gathered and were told that there

 8     was a large number of Muslims from Srebrenica in Potocari, and they were

 9     assigned to search the terrain from Zuti Most towards Potocari.  He saw a

10     crowd gathered in front of the factory, and when he passed by the crowd,

11     he saw General Mladic giving food to the people.  While in Potocari,

12     neither Dusan Micic nor any of his men noticed that anyone was singled

13     out from the crowd, beaten, or killed.

14             One night in Sandici locality he heard shooting from the woods.

15     When he woke up, he was informed that the Muslims had attacked and some

16     of his men were wounded or seriously injured.

17             On 12th of July, 1995, in Sandici, buses with Muslims, probably

18     from Potocari, starting passing by.  Dusan Micic did not remember if the

19     buses were also passing on 13th of July, but probably not.  That day, he

20     went back to Bratunac.  On his way, he saw a group of 50 to 60 Muslims on

21     the pass in Sandici.  When he passed by his colleagues -- passed by, his

22     colleagues had told him that these people left the woods where the

23     shooting came from and that they had surrendered.  Those people were

24     guarded by several soldiers who were unfamiliar to him.  He did not know

25     if they were policemen or from the army.  Later in Bratunac, he saw buses

Page 36216

 1     and lorries with Muslims were passing through a side street where the

 2     Muslims had spent the night, towards Konjevic Polje.

 3             Regarding the killing of Muslims in Bratunac that night,

 4     Dusan Micic was not aware of anything at that time.  He learned about it

 5     later but did not know how many were killed or who killed them.

 6             With regard to the incident in Kravica on 13th of July, 1995, he

 7     only learned about it later when the suspects were arrested.  He did not

 8     know where the bodies were buried.

 9             And that is short summary.  I do not questions for this witness

10     for a moment.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Although the summary does not form part the

12     witness's evidence, I have a question about it.  You read, page 72, lines

13     20 to 23:

14             "The military police was located in the old Vuk Karadzic primary

15     school.  One day when Mr. Dusan Micic passed by the school, he saw some

16     soldiers."

17             Are you referring to the same school building?  You can clarify

18     with the witness.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm going to ask the witness.

20             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   How many schools were there?  Was that the same school, and what

22     was the situation with the buildings?

23        A.   That was an old school that was disused.  It was located not far

24     away from the school where the Muslims were, maybe 100 or 150 metres, but

25     it hadn't been used for at least ten years previously.

Page 36217

 1        Q.   The one that you're talking about where the police was ceased to

 2     be a school ten years before the war; is that correct?

 3        A.   Yes, most probably.

 4        Q.   But there is another school where the Muslims were?

 5        A.   Well, that was one 100 or 150 metres from that school.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  Is a hangar part of it or is that a third facility?

 7        A.   That's a third facility located behind the school and behind the

 8     gym.

 9        Q.   The old or the new one?

10        A.   The new school, new school.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Nicholls.

12             MR. NICHOLLS:  Sorry, Your Honours.  Sorry, Mr. Karadzic.  I

13     don't mean to interrupt, but if Mr. Karadzic likes, we could find the

14     aerial of Bratunac which shows the old school and the various buildings.

15     Up to him and the Chamber.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm satisfied with this, but it's

17     up to the Prosecution to call the footage up.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  Let's leave it at that.

19             Mr. Micic, as you have noted, your evidence in chief in this case

20     has been admitted in writing, that is, through your written statement in

21     lieu of your oral testimony.  Now you'll be cross-examined by the

22     representative of the Office of the Prosecutor.

23             Ms. Edgerton.

24             MS. EDGERTON:  Thank you.

25                           Cross-examination by Ms. Edgerton:

Page 36218

 1        Q.   Good afternoon, Mr. Micic.

 2        A.   Good afternoon.

 3        Q.   I want to start by just asking you one thing about the PJP and

 4     your company.  Your company, as you said in your statement to

 5     Dr. Karadzic's Defence counsel, was the first of the number of PJP

 6     companies in the Zvornik CJB.  Now, the 1st Company is actually the elite

 7     company of the PJP, isn't it?  You're kind of like their strike force?

 8        A.   Well, you could say that.

 9        Q.   Okay.  Just -- now, His Honour Judge Kwon asked you about

10     something that wasn't in your statement, and I want to ask you about

11     something else that I didn't see in your Defence statement.  Tell me if

12     this is correct:  In July 1995, you were guarding the prisoners when they

13     were brought to the Vuk Karadzic school in Bratunac, weren't you?

14        A.   No, you're not right.

15        Q.   Well, now I'm puzzled about that for a couple of reasons.  First

16     of all, we got that information from the Defence.  They have an

17     obligation to tell us an outline in advance of what you're going to say,

18     and on 26 February 2013, they gave us that outline.  And it says here of

19     you:

20             "He also participated in guarding the prisoners in July 1995 when

21     they were brought to the Vuk Karadzic school in Bratunac."

22             So where does that come from?

23        A.   I have no idea about that statement, and I can guarantee to you

24     and to this Court that I was never there at the time.  It's a mistake.  I

25     couldn't have been there at the time, because I was busy elsewhere with

Page 36219

 1     other business.

 2        Q.   But they must have got that from somewhere.  Are you saying they

 3     made it up?

 4        A.   Well, I don't know if they made that up.  Anyway, it was

 5     impossible for me to be in or outside the school in 1995 when I had other

 6     commitments and duties, and I never did the guard duty.

 7        Q.   [Microphone not activated] Well, let's go through -- let's go

 8     through --

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Microphone.

10             MS. EDGERTON:  Pardon me.

11        Q.   Let's go through the summary of what your evidence was expected

12     to be, and you tell me what's correct in there, all right?  The first

13     sentence says you're a military policeman in the Bratunac Territorial

14     Defence during 1992.  Is that correct?

15        A.   Yes, that is correct.

16        Q.   You were a security guard in the Vuk Karadzic elementary school.

17     Is that correct?

18        A.   No, it's not correct.

19        Q.   You will testify that paramilitaries were involved in the

20     incident and not members of the TO.  Is that correct?

21        A.   Yes, it is.

22        Q.   On 12 July 1995, your platoon was in the area of Potocari and

23     Kravica.  Correct or not?

24        A.   Correct.

25        Q.   And as Dr. Karadzic says in your summary, you will testify that

Page 36220

 1     there were no killings in Potocari while your platoon was there.

 2     Correct?

 3        A.   Absolutely correct.

 4        Q.   And your unit was not involved in the Kravica incident.

 5        A.   What do you mean the Kravica incident?  I don't know what you

 6     have in mind.  Which incident?

 7        Q.   I'm reading you the summary of your evidence.  Is there an

 8     incident in Kravica you were involved in?

 9        A.   My unit was not involved in any incident in Kravica that took

10     place there.

11        Q.   And the last sentence that we've already talked about, you also

12     participated -- it says:

13             "He also participated in guarding the prisoners in July 1995 when

14     they were brought to the Vuk Karadzic school in Bratunac."

15             And you've said that that's not correct.

16             THE ACCUSED:  May I have reference, please.

17             MS. EDGERTON:  The reference is the 65 ter filing of 26 February

18     19 -- pardon me, 2013.

19             THE ACCUSED:  But --

20             MS. EDGERTON:  Now, let's move on.

21             THE ACCUSED:  But there is a more fresh summary, 92 ter.

22             JUDGE KWON:  But she's asking the witness about the summary she

23     got.  Probably you may clarify how come that sentence got into the

24     summary, but otherwise your intervention is not appropriate,

25     Mr. Karadzic.

Page 36221

 1             MS. EDGERTON:

 2        Q.   [Microphone not activated] So there's two things --

 3             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

 4             MS. EDGERTON:  Sorry, that might be my voice or the way I'm

 5     standing.

 6        Q.   There's two things in your -- in this summary that you say are

 7     not accurate, and I want to go into one of those a little bit more and

 8     that's what happened in 1995.

 9             You must, since you've talked about 1995 in your statement,

10     remember Danilo Zoljic.  He was the commander of the Zvornik PJPs;

11     correct?

12        A.   Yes, I remember well.

13        Q.   Are you still in contact with him?

14        A.   Not at the moment.  There's no need for that.  I don't think that

15     he still works for the police.

16        Q.   Now, he gave a statement to authorities in Bosnia and Herzegovina

17     in 2005, and perhaps we could have a look at that.  65 ter number 24857.

18     And that's about the same subjects that you talked about in your Defence

19     statement and your interrogation in 2008.

20             So Mr. Zoljic to security authorities in Bijeljina in 2005 --

21             MS. EDGERTON:  And perhaps we could go over to English page 5 and

22     B/C/S page 3, at the very bottom of page 3.

23        Q.   So Mr. Zoljic, in 2005, talked about what the Zvornik PJPs were

24     doing in July of 1995 as well, and he says halfway through page 5 in

25     English and from the very bottom of page 3 in B/C/S and to the top of

Page 36222

 1     page 4, he says:

 2             "I also remember that there were cases involving the capture of

 3     their Muslim soldiers as well as male civilians who were then transported

 4     onto Bratunac by coach."

 5             He said:

 6             "I can't vouch for the exact date, but I think that it was during

 7     the night of 14 July 1995 when the 1st Company," that's your company,

 8     "and the Sekovici 2nd Detachment were pulled out of the line and deployed

 9     to the security detail for coaches transporting the prisoners and the

10     security detail for the school in Bratunac."

11             So Mr. Zoljic says that your company was doing exactly what is in

12     your 65 ter summary, what the Defence towed us your evidence would be,

13     isn't he?  He says your company was involved in guarding captured

14     soldiers and civilians in Bratunac.  Isn't that correct?

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have the next page in

16     Serbian, please.

17             MS. EDGERTON:  Top of page -- top of page 4.  So go to the next

18     page in Serbian, very top.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Could you tell me the part in English?  Where do we

20     have it?

21             MS. EDGERTON:  That's not the correct page.  If you could indulge

22     me for a moment, Your Honour.

23             JUDGE KWON:  It's page 4, yes.  Previous.

24             MS. EDGERTON:  My apologies.  Thank you.

25        Q.   So I wonder if you could answer the question.  Why does the

Page 36223

 1     commander of the Zvornik PJPs say that your company was guarding the

 2     prisoners in Bratunac?  Which is exactly what we were told your evidence

 3     is going to be.

 4        A.   I can say that this was his personal view.  I was a member of the

 5     company, but my platoon and not all of it was involved.  Only members of

 6     the Bratunac police station on the morning of the 13th were withdrawn

 7     from Konjevic Polje and Sandici to Bratunac in connection with the

 8     killing of Zeljko Ninkovic, a police officer from our police station.

 9     These are the men I'm talking about.  As for the rest of my company,

10     where they were deployed, I don't know.

11        Q.   You're a platoon commander and you don't know where the rest of

12     your company was deployed?

13        A.   Yes, yes.  They remained behind when I left Konjevic Polje.  They

14     remained in Sandici where this tragedy happened, the killing of our

15     colleague.  And after that I didn't need to know about that.  There were

16     people higher up the chain who were supposed know about that.

17        Q.   Something else that puzzles me about Zoljic's statement.  He

18     continues on this page, saying:

19             "Captured soldiers and able-bodied civilians," and that's at the

20     bottom of the page in English in front of us.

21             "Captured soldiers and able-bodied civilians, there were around

22     2.500 to 3.000 of them were transported to Zvornik under our escort," so

23     PJP escort, "and handed over and placed under the jurisdiction of the

24     Zvornik Brigade."

25             So that's something else that your units were involved in, and

Page 36224

 1     that's not in your statement either, is it?

 2        A.   Well, I can give you a similar answer.  I don't know on which day

 3     did they participate in the escort to Zvornik.

 4        Q.   Which company?

 5        A.   Can you tell me the date and the day when the company was

 6     involved in escorting the captured Muslims to Zvornik?  That's what I

 7     meant.

 8        Q.   Were there so many convoys of Muslims being escorted to Zvornik

 9     that you need additional information to determine when it might have

10     happened?

11        A.   No, no, no.  I want to know the date so that I can tell you where

12     I was when that was going on and only then can I give you an answer.  Was

13     that the 13th and the 14th?

14        Q.   It was the 13th -- it was the 13th at night, and the 14th during

15     the day, when you said actually you had been to Bratunac where thousands

16     of prisoners were already locked down in facilities in the town.

17        A.   May I answer?  I don't know the number, whether there were

18     thousands of them.  On the 13th, I and members of the Bratunac police

19     station left Sandici and we went to prepare the funeral of our colleague,

20     and I was engaged with that the whole day.  In Orthodoxy it takes a lot

21     to prepare a funeral.  You need to prepare food and drink.  And he was a

22     refugee from Zenica and he was a poor person.  So I didn't know what was

23     going on.  And I'm talking only about members of the Bratunac police

24     station.  I don't know about others.  And the same applies to the 14th.

25     The funeral took place on the 14th.  We spent the whole day at the

Page 36225

 1     deceased's house, and we buried him eventually.  So I never even passed

 2     through that area on that day.

 3             And as for what Danilo Zoljic is talking about, it's his problem.

 4     I don't know.  I never saw those men on the 13th and the 14th, members of

 5     my unit.

 6        Q.   There's something else that actually doesn't add up, to my mind,

 7     from some of the statements you've previously given.  Now, in your

 8     statement to Dr. Karadzic's Defence, you referred to your interrogation

 9     by the Bosnia-Herzegovina prosecutor's office in 2008, and we can have a

10     look at that to refresh your memory.  It's 65 ter number 24855.

11             You recognise the statement you gave in 2008?

12        A.   Yes, yes.

13             MS. EDGERTON:  Let's go over to page 6, I think in both

14     languages, paragraph 6.

15        Q.   And this is about your duties on the 12th of July in Potocari.

16     And you're --

17             MS. EDGERTON:  Your Honour, indulge me, please, again for a

18     moment with respect to the English language pages.  Page 9 in English.

19        Q.   Now, you said, with respect to your duties on the 12th of July,

20     that Commander Pantic explained to you that you were searching the

21     terrain on the right side of the road in order to take over that terrain

22     to prevent the paramilitary formations on the side of the Serb forces

23     from attacking the Muslim population gathered in Potocari.  Is that true?

24     Is it your evidence that you were searching for Serb paramilitary forces?

25        A.   We were not searching.  We were scouring the terrain in order to

Page 36226

 1     ensure security for the Muslims gathered there, to prevent any incident

 2     or attacks on them.  That's why we were searching the area.

 3        Q.   By who?  Incidents or attacks by who?

 4        A.   Possibly by Serbs.

 5        Q.   So let me get this straight.  On the 12th of July, PJP units --

 6     12th of July, 1995, PJP units, VRS units, in large numbers, units from

 7     Jahorina and others descend on Potocari to surround Potocari and to take

 8     control of Potocari, and your evidence is that your task is to protect

 9     the Muslims and secure them from attack by Serb forces?

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we please have the reference to

11     take control of Potocari.  Where can we find this?  Line 8.

12             MS. EDGERTON:  Do Your Honours want me to list the names of the

13     DutchBat soldiers who came to testify in these proceedings about this

14     incident?  I don't know what Dr. Karadzic is asking for here.

15             JUDGE MORRISON:  It might be easier -- I noticed that the witness

16     was almost about to answer your question, so it might be easier if he

17     does that.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very well.

19             MS. EDGERTON:

20        Q.   Do you want me to repeat the question?

21        A.   I'll try to answer.  The units you cited, some from Sarajevo and

22     from elsewhere, at the time I was up there with my unit, there was --

23     there were no such units there.  I didn't see a single one for as long as

24     I was there with my unit.  I don't know what happened after I left.  I

25     was there for two or three hours with my unit, and then we withdrew to

Page 36227

 1     Bratunac.

 2        Q.   My question was about your task.  You stand by your assertion in

 3     2008 that your task was to protect the Muslims and secure them from

 4     attack by Serb forces?

 5        A.   Yes.  I stand by it even now.  I'm very proud of it.  We were

 6     successful in doing that.  During my unit's stay up there, there was not

 7     a single incident.

 8        Q.   I want to show you another document from somebody else that you

 9     would know from that time.  It's Dragomir Vasic.  Now, he was the chief

10     of the Zvornik CJB, wasn't he?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   So he's your boss.

13        A.   He was the head of the centre, yes.

14        Q.   All right.  I'm going to show you what he said your job was.

15             MS. EDGERTON:  Could we have a look at P2996, please.  And it's a

16     report to the minister of the interior from Vasic.  On 12 July 1992.  And

17     you're going to have to magnify the Serbian version.  Thank you.

18        Q.   So have a look at this document, line 6.  Dragomir Vasic, your

19     chief, talks about joint police forces advancing on Potocari with the aim

20     of taking UNPROFOR personnel prisoner, surrounding the entire civilian

21     population, and cleaning the terrain of enemy groups.

22             So your boss says that your job was something completely

23     different from what you say it was.  Isn't that so?

24        A.   Mr. Vasic was my boss, but my boss at the time was

25     Radomir Pantic, and I received my tasks from him.  I didn't see Vasic at

Page 36228

 1     all that day.

 2        Q.   So are you saying that Vasic -- Vasic isn't telling the truth

 3     when he writes this document?

 4        A.   It's not what I'm saying.  I am simply don't want to get involved

 5     in this.  He was my chief, and it's up to him what he wants to write

 6     down.  I'm only telling you about where I was and what I did together

 7     with my unit.  I received my tasks from Radomir Pantic directly and not

 8     from Vasic.  I received orders from him.

 9        Q.   All right.  Let's go back to your statement in 2008, 65 ter

10     number 24855.  And let's go over to paragraph 11.  And that's at pages 11

11     of the English translation and 11 of the B/C/S, I hope.

12             In -- in this statement that you gave in 2008, you talked about

13     your unit's deployment to Sandici on the evening of the 12th, and there

14     you stated that Pantic, who you've just talked about, told you that at

15     Sandici you can't allow anyone to stop the vehicles with the civilians

16     coming from Potocari and that you had to provide those vehicles pass

17     undisturbed.  And then further in that same document you said:

18             "I haven't had information on the evening of 12 July that male

19     Muslims, armed soldiers, were moving through the forest."

20             So was that true when you said that in 2008?

21        A.   I don't know when.  It depends when I learned of it.  I don't

22     recall it.  When could I have learned that they could go through the

23     forest?

24        Q.   It's your statement, so these are your words.  One would think

25     you would know.

Page 36229

 1             My question to you was:  Is this true, what I just read to you

 2     from your statement in 2008?

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we at least have the entire

 4     sentence read out, if not the passage, the sentence to the end.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  Did you find the sentence, Mr. Micic,

 6     and read it?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Just a moment.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] In the middle, Sekovici, and then

 9     further in the text.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "That evening I noticed a single

11     tank."

12             Is that it, Mr. President?

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] "The next evening."

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "I noticed the crew, and later I

15     learned that the tank" --

16             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  We do not understand the

17     witness.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  Just a second.  Why don't we give it

19     another try.  Could you let the witness know the sentence.  Where is it,

20     Ms. Edgerton, in the B/C/S?

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The witness found it, but he was

22     reading fast.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'll do it slowly.

24             JUDGE KWON:  You don't have to read out.  Read it and then answer

25     the question.  Let us know when your reading is done, Mr. Micic.

Page 36230

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very well.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Only the part pertaining to the

 3     forest.  The rest you don't need to read, sir.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Do I need to read it out or do you

 5     want me to respond?

 6             JUDGE KWON:  No, that's fine --

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Read it to yourself and then

 8     answer.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  And what was your question, Ms. Edgerton?

10             MS. EDGERTON:

11        Q.   My question was whether what he said about the orders from

12     Commander Pantic was true.

13        A.   Yes, it is true.  It's just that in the evening upon arrival I

14     had no information.  During the night and later, I learned more.  I

15     learned that during the night there was some movement of units, but in

16     the evening when we were deployed along the line and the road we had no

17     information.  At least I didn't.  That's what he conveyed to me.  During

18     the night we already received some information.  We were there the whole

19     night, from dusk 'til dawn.

20        Q.   And the information that you received was that a column of

21     thousands of Bosnian Muslim boys and men was trying to escape from

22     Srebrenica, and your task was to block them, and capture them, and

23     eliminate them.  That's what you were doing at Sandici.  Wasn't that your

24     job?  Yes or no?

25        A.   Well, that was never a task.  One cannot discuss it at all.  If

Page 36231

 1     we had done that we would have, but what else?  What about those we

 2     escorted and secured?

 3        Q.   Well, let's look at another document from your boss, Vasic.  It's

 4     P4937.  4937.

 5             So this is another document from your boss on the 12th of July,

 6     1995, to the minister of the interior, where he says 8.000 men, about

 7     1500 of whom are armed, are in the Konjevic Polje and Sandici sector, and

 8     the Sekovici Special Detachment and the 1st Company of the PJP, that's

 9     your company, are blocking this section with the goal of destroying these

10     forces.

11             So here's another document where Vasic says your job is something

12     other than what you say it is.  So is Vasic lying?

13        A.   I can't say that he's lying, but I can't get involved in what

14     Vasic stated.  It's up to him how he viewed the situation.  My view was

15     different, and it was in light of what we were doing in the field.  And

16     it was proven that in the field where my unit was there were no killings.

17     [In English] Yes.

18        Q.   Now, I find it interesting that you don't want to get involved in

19     it, because in fact, Mr. Micic, everybody knew what was going on at

20     Sandici, and, for example, Dr. Karadzic himself received a report from

21     General Miletic on 12 July 1995 - and the reference is P3054 - about

22     events in the area.  Dr. Karadzic even read or even received information

23     that said during the day, Potocari was liberated, Serb forces continued

24     to advance in order to liberate all the settlements in the Srebrenica

25     enclave, part of our units and MUP units have organised ambushes in order

Page 36232

 1     to break out from the enclave towards Tuzla.  So it's not only the chief

 2     of the CJB but the VRS Main Staff was reporting up to Karadzic what was

 3     going on, and your evidence is your unit had nothing to do there.  You

 4     slept through it effectively is what you said in your statement; correct?

 5        A.   Yes, yes.  I was tired that night.  When I was in the field, I

 6     deployed my men, established communication and withdrew some 30 to

 7     50 metres away from them, and I fell asleep.  I was asleep when the

 8     shooting occurred.

 9        Q.   So you slept through.  You heard no shots.  You saw no Muslims

10     being surrendered -- surrendering.  You saw no Muslims being captured the

11     whole time you were on the line at Sandici.  Is that your evidence?

12        A.   I assert -- well, I haven't slept through it, but I've slept from

13     perhaps 10 to 15 minutes.  But at the time during the night, no Muslims

14     were surrendering on the 13th in the morning.  That is to say, the night

15     between the 12th and the 13th.  There -- people were not surrendering

16     that night while I was there.

17             On the 13th, in agreement with my commanders, I went to Bratunac

18     to inquire about the situation with my colleague.  They told me to go to

19     the base, and then I would be informed.  When I arrived in Bratunac, when

20     I entered the police station, they told me that Zeljko Ninkovic had died.

21     I immediately went to see the chief --

22        Q.   Sorry, Zeljko Ninkovic was also a member of the 1st Company of

23     the PJP, wasn't he?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   Because you didn't say that in your statement.  Because you

Page 36233

 1     didn't say that in your statement either.

 2        A.   Yes, yes.  I didn't?  Well, no one asked me.

 3        Q.   Mr. Micic, by the 13th of July, Serb forces had captured or

 4     received around 1.500 Muslim soldiers who were making their way through

 5     the very meadow where your unit, your company, and your platoon was

 6     situated, and your evidence is it didn't happen while you were there?

 7        A.   Yes.  If you allowed me, I will tell you where I was.

 8        Q.   Well, you've said that, actually, in your statement, and you've

 9     just repeated your evidence.  You said you were at Bratunac arranging the

10     funeral of your colleague who died in combat --

11        A.   Funeral.

12        Q.   Who died in combat; correct?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Even though you heard no shots, saw no Muslims surrendering,

15     captured no one, your colleague died in combat.

16        A.   My colleague was killed during the night, and one couldn't see

17     that.  I heard shooting.  I can't say I didn't.  I was woken up by it.

18     They were transferred to Bratunac during the night.  I was still not at

19     that place when I learned about it.  I called in to see what was going

20     on, and from the Bratunac station they told me to go to the base and that

21     they would tell me then so as not to speak about that over the radio.

22     The next morning I went to Bratunac immediately.  I spent some two hours

23     there with the chief - it was Jusupovic at the time - and he told me that

24     he would intervene with my commander, Radomir Pantic, for me to return

25     again to Sandici to inform the men to be withdrawn to Bratunac to prepare

Page 36234

 1     for the funeral, which is what I did.  So during the night there were no

 2     surrenderings and we didn't see any Muslims.

 3             When I arrived in the morning, when I returned on the 13th after

 4     I had gone to Bratunac, in the meantime, as my people were withdrawing,

 5     around a dozen of us, I noticed going from Bratunac to the right, I saw

 6     some 50, 60, or a hundred metres away some Muslim civilians, some 50 of

 7     them.

 8        Q.   Now, you're repeating the evidence in your statement, but you

 9     actually took us a little bit ahead in time to the 13th, and you said you

10     went back to Sandici on the 13th.  Now, to get back to Sandici, you

11     actually have to -- from Bratunac you have to drive past the Kravica

12     warehouse, don't you?

13        A.   Yes, I had to.

14        Q.   By the 13th, the killings in the Kravica warehouse had already

15     begun.  You were driving by, and you saw nothing.  Is that your evidence?

16        A.   I assert that because -- you need to tell me what time.  When I

17     went to Bratunac and returned, it was 10 to 15 minutes, and nothing was

18     going on during that time.  What time do you mean specifically, what

19     hour?

20        Q.   What time did you go to Sandici from Bratunac?  What time did you

21     return to your men?

22        A.   Well, as soon as it dawned, I went to Bratunac.  So 5.00 or 6.00

23     in the morning, perhaps.  I told you, I spent two to three hours there.

24     I can't remember exactly off-the-cuff.

25        Q.   So what time did you go back to Sandici to brief your men?  On

Page 36235

 1     the 13th, what time were you travelling to Sandici?

 2        A.   You mean when I returned to Bratunac?

 3        Q.   Yes.

 4        A.   As soon as I arrived.  I don't know exactly, but in the morning.

 5     Before noon, that's when I returned to Bratunac.  There was nothing going

 6     on at the time, nothing of the sort you are talking about.  I didn't see

 7     or hear anything.

 8        Q.   I want to know -- we must be losing something, because I want to

 9     know what time you went from Bratunac back to Sandici.  You went --

10     you've given evidence that you went to Sandici on the 13th.  You went

11     back to Sandici on the 13th.  What time did you get there?

12        A.   You don't understand me, or I don't know.  On the 13th in the

13     morning I went to Bratunac.  Let me put it this way.  In the morning,

14     5.00, 6.00, a.m., I returned from Bratunac perhaps -- I can't remember

15     exactly, but in the morning, say, two hours later, to Sandici to inform

16     my men to go so that they would go back to Bratunac.

17        Q.   So when you got to talk to your men at Sandici, you must have

18     received information from them.  Your men must have briefed you about the

19     Muslims who they had captured and collected overnight.

20        A.   My men did not receive anyone, and they could not have informed

21     me when they were unaware of it.  From my place, Kravica, where I was

22     deployed with my unit, there is at least 1.5 kilometres to 2 kilometres

23     to there.  That's the distance.  And there's one bend after another, and

24     you can't see from one end to the other.

25        Q.   I see.  We'll move on to another area.  Actually, we'll go back

Page 36236

 1     in time to Potocari.  Now, in your statement -- pardon me.  In your

 2     statement, you said that after Zeljko's funeral you worked at the station

 3     for a day or two, and you don't remember how long before you got sent out

 4     again.  Do you remember that?

 5        A.   Yes, I remember it.  I don't remember what date exactly, the 16th

 6     or the 17th, but in any case, for a day or two we worked and then I

 7     received other orders.

 8        Q.   So the strike force was hanging around Bratunac until you got

 9     other orders.  You don't remember what you were doing?

10        A.   What I was doing while I was in Bratunac?

11        Q.   All right.

12        A.   Well, regular police tasks for day or two.

13        Q.   All right.  Let's have a look -- I want to ask you something

14     relating to that time period, but to do that we have to go back in time.

15     Let's have a look at P4202.

16        A.   Most probably I also rested.  Perhaps I rested.  I don't know

17     what I did for the day or two.  I rested most likely.

18        Q.   Well, all right.  Maybe this is going to help refresh your memory

19     about what you did for a day or two.  P4202 is -- at page 71, now, is a

20     still from a video-clip, and it's a video-clip of you along with your

21     forces, people you worked with entering Potocari from Bratunac on the

22     12th of July.

23             Now, the people, some of the people identified in this film, have

24     got numbers written on their -- posted on their backs.  Number 1 is

25     Milan Milinkovic, who identified himself in this film clip, a member of

Page 36237

 1     the 2nd Company -- 2nd Battalion, 1st Company of the Bratunac Brigade.

 2     Number 2 is a fellow who was a member of your company, your subordinate,

 3     in fact, isn't he?  Dobro Stanojevic.

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   Number 3 -- number 3 has been identified as you.  Number 4 is

 6     Radenko Tomic, a member of Mauzer's Panthers from the East Bosnia Corps.

 7             Now, that's you at Bratunac, and you know these other soldiers --

 8     pardon me, at Potocari, and you know these other soldiers.  You worked

 9     with them.  Correct?

10        A.   Incorrect.  I never co-operated with these soldiers.  You

11     yourself said what units they came from, so we couldn't have co-operated.

12        Q.   You're walking into Potocari in co-operation next to one another

13     with somebody else from your unit.  Like I said initially, in a joint

14     force.

15        A.   No, no.  Ninety per cent of the people in the still are my men,

16     but I don't know where the rest come from and how they happened to be

17     there.  It's their problem.  I never communicated with them.  We did not

18     share any command and did not associate.

19        Q.   Oh.  Maybe --

20             JUDGE KWON:  Just let us clarify the transcript.  Line 6, did the

21     witness confirm that it was correct?  Let us first confirm whether this

22     is the witness himself.

23             Mr. Micic, do you agree that number 3 is yourself?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can.  I'm not a hundred

25     per cent sure, but I'd say that I'm 90 per cent sure that this is me.

Page 36238

 1     It's not a problem at all.  I said where I was.

 2             MS. EDGERTON:

 3        Q.   It might help just to play a little bit of the video-clip that

 4     this was taken from, Mr. Micic, so that you can --

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] But, Your Excellencies, Judge Kwon

 6     is right.  The witness said that -- didn't say that this is correct.  He

 7     said it is not correct that he co-operated with those men.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  That's noted.  Let's proceed.

 9             MS. EDGERTON:  We're going to play --

10             JUDGE KWON:  Does the witness have the Sanction as well?

11             MS. EDGERTON:  We're going to play P4201, part 2, starting at

12     time-code number 16:45.

13                           [Video-clip played]

14             THE INTERPRETER: "[Voiceover] What's up, man?

15             "Slowly.

16             "They need to be told what they deserve.

17             "Just block it and that's it.

18             "Stay, stay.

19             "Pass the word up there.

20             "What?

21             "There, film that ... a trench ... there, up there.

22             "Where?

23             "That hill?

24             "Hello, Goran, if you can't manage it then send those further up

25     there.

Page 36239

 1             "A trench?

 2             "Let him film the elevation there.

 3             "Where did you get the bullet-proof vest?

 4             "Slowly.

 5             "Do you have the bullet-proof vest?

 6             "Old man?  I'm taking them down the hill, down there.

 7             "Hey.

 8             "May I?

 9             "Come on, let's go.  Let's go immediately.

10             "Shall I take them down the road.

11             "Now move along this way.

12             "Zare.

13             "Nobody will harm you.

14             "Don't be afraid ... come with me ... don't be afraid, nobody

15     will harm you.  Don't be afraid.

16             "Come with me freely.  Come on.

17             "Nobody will harm you, nobody will.

18             "Don't cry.

19             "We got separated.  Please let us reunite.

20             "Don't be afraid.

21             "Why did you leave then?

22             "23 Omega.

23             "Don't wail.  Nobody will harm you."

24             MS. EDGERTON:  For the record, I'm stopping the film clip at

25     time-code 18:49.

Page 36240

 1        Q.   Now, having seen the film of yourself and forces around Potocari

 2     on the 12th of July, perhaps we can go back to the figures that we looked

 3     at in the photo.

 4             MS. EDGERTON:  P4202, please.

 5        Q.   Now, Milan Milinkovic, you knew him; correct?

 6        A.   Not well.

 7        Q.   He was --

 8        A.   Perhaps later.  No, I didn't know him well.  Just by sight.

 9        Q.   He's from Bratunac.

10        A.   No.  He is from Srebrenica.

11        Q.   Dobroslav Stanojevic.  You knew him; correct?

12        A.   Yes, yes, I knew him.  He's a member of my unit.  He was my

13     subordinate.  I was his superior.

14        Q.   Radenko Tomic.  You knew him; correct?

15        A.   No, I did not know him.  He was not a member of my unit.

16        Q.   What was he doing with your unit on the 12th of July?

17        A.   Perhaps he was just passing through.  He did not have anything

18     whatsoever to do with my unit.  We absolutely had nothing to do with him.

19     You're saying "forces" or "unit," but I can see not more than 20 men or

20     even less.  What forces are we talking about?  How can those be forces?

21        Q.   Mr. Micic, Radenko Tomic, Gargija, he was seen at the

22     Branjevo farm killings, and you know that, don't you?

23        A.   I haven't a clue.  I know nothing about that.

24             MS. EDGERTON:  And for the record, the evidence of that is from

25     Mr. Erdemovic at P332, transcript pages 10974 to 10977, and 10985 to

Page 36241

 1     10986.

 2        Q.   Not only, Mr. Micic, was he seen at the Branjevo farm killings,

 3     he was a shooter.  You know that, don't you?

 4        A.   No.  I know nothing about that.  My unit was not at the place

 5     that you mention.

 6        Q.   He came to Branjevo with a group of around 15 others from

 7     Bratunac, and you actually know that, too, don't you, and that's why you

 8     claim you had -- you didn't know Gargija now.

 9        A.   I've never heard this before.  I've never heard that he went to

10     Zvornik with 15 men.  I have a vague idea of him, but this is the first

11     time I hear from you that he went there.  I can't talk about his

12     whereabouts, where he went, who he went with.  My unit was not there.  I

13     don't even know where Branjevo is.  I haven't a faintest.  I was never in

14     Branjevo.  Never been there.

15        Q.   That's the day when you say you actually don't know -- you don't

16     remember what you were doing with your unit, isn't it?

17        A.   No, no, no.  These are -- I keep on telling you that I don't know

18     Branjevo.  I know that it is in Zvornik municipality.  I repeat, my unit

19     was never there.  I haven't a faintest where that is.  I know where my

20     unit was on those days.

21        Q.   Well, then what you were doing on the 16th of July, 1995?

22        A.   On the 16th of July, I may have been engaged in the Zvornik

23     sector in a place called Baljkovac, but perhaps I was at home.  I don't

24     know what date we're talking about.  I've already told you that I don't

25     know when it was that I was engaged after that.

Page 36242

 1             MS. EDGERTON:  I have nothing further, Your Honours.

 2             MR. ROBINSON:  Excuse me, Mr. President.  Is it the Prosecution's

 3     case in a Mr. Micic was at Branjevo farm participating in the executions?

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Are you prepared to answer the question,

 5     Ms. Edgerton?

 6             MS. EDGERTON:  My colleague is.

 7             MR. NICHOLLS:  Your Honour, other than what Ms. Edgerton went

 8     through, nothing further.  However, just that his statement he has

 9     continually said that on the day he doesn't know what he was doing,

10     stories changed about where he was, and he was with at least one person

11     who was determined to be present and taking part, and that's our case.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.

13             Mr. Karadzic, do you have re-examination?

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Excellency, and I hope I

15     may finish before the end of this session.

16                           Re-examination by Mr. Karadzic:

17        Q.   [Interpretation] And while we're all looking at this image,

18     Mr. Micic, can you please tell me whether your unit was armed with Zoljas

19     and whether they sported bandannas or kerchiefs on their heads?

20        A.   No, Mr. President, never.

21        Q.   Thank you.

22        A.   We were a regular unit.  We did not hide from anybody.  We did

23     what we did in an honest and honourable way.

24        Q.   Let's clarify some things.  Can you please tell us whether PJP

25     was your permanent job?  Who were PJP members?  What smaller units did it

Page 36243

 1     consist of?

 2        A.   No, it was not a permanent position for any of us.  We were

 3     engaged in combat, and that's the name that we went under, PJP.  When we

 4     were sent on missions we went as PJPs.  When we returned home, we were

 5     subordinated to local police stations.

 6        Q.   Very well.  So when you went back to your regular policing

 7     duties, were you a force of some kind?

 8        A.   No.  We were not a striking force anymore.

 9        Q.   Tell me about the structure of a company.  For example, the

10     1st Company, was that a unit with some cohesion?

11        A.   Yes.  It was a unit that consisted of some hundred men, but it

12     was never brought to full strength.

13        Q.   Were there any smaller units within it?

14        A.   Yes, there were three platoons, the 1st, 2nd, and the 3rd.  I was

15     the commander of the 3rd Platoon, and the platoons consisted or drew

16     strength from the police stations in Birac.  I was the commander of

17     Milici, Skelani, and Bratunac police units.

18        Q.   Your men came from those stations; right?

19        A.   Yes.  When they received mobilisation calls, they would come from

20     those stations and they would be sent on missions.

21        Q.   Did all the three platoons get to be deployed in the same

22     locality?

23        A.   It all depended on the situation.  It didn't have to be so.

24        Q.   Thank you.  Who was your immediate superior?

25        A.   My immediate superior was Radomir Pantic, the company commander.

Page 36244

 1        Q.   Thank you.  Who was his immediate superior?

 2        A.   His immediate superior, I believe, was the chief of the centre.

 3        Q.   Was your company part of a detachment?

 4        A.   I don't understand your question.  We just called ourselves a

 5     company.

 6        Q.   Was that the only PJP company in the CSB Zvornik?

 7        A.   No.  It was not the only company.  My centre in Zvornik had four

 8     or five companies in total, and they also went under the name PJP.  They

 9     were the 1st Company, the 2nd, the 3rd, the 4th, and so on and so forth.

10        Q.   Was there a unique command for all the four companies?

11        A.   There was a single command in the centre for all the companies.

12        Q.   Well, that means that Mr. Vasic could have been your third

13     superior if the single command for the companies, known as detachment, is

14     there, then Vasic would have been the commander of the detachment, right,

15     or the superior to the detachment commander?

16        A.   Yes.  I believe that you're right.

17             MS. EDGERTON:  That's extremely leading.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Very leading.  But I do not understand "the third."

19     How come Mr. Vasic was your third superior commander, Mr. Micic?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The President asked me who my

21     immediate superior in combat was and that was Radomir Pantic.  The second

22     was the commander of all the four or five companies that we had.

23     Danilo Zoljic was his name.

24             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   And who was his commander?

Page 36245

 1        A.   Danilo Zoljic's commander?  It was the chief of the centre, of

 2     course.

 3        Q.   Name?

 4        A.   Dragomir Vasic.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Please continue.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 7             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   From what level did you receive your orders?

 9        A.   I personally received orders from the level of the company

10     commander.

11        Q.   You were asked about being captured.  You went -- you took your

12     platoon to Sandici.  Was your company there, the entire company?

13        A.   The entire company arrived in Sandici.

14        Q.   Thank you.  And you spent the night between the 12th and the 13th

15     there; is that correct?

16        A.   Yes, the night between the 12th and the 13th we spent there.

17        Q.   Thank you.  You said that there was not any arrest.  Did anybody

18     else arrest somebody while you were there until 6.00 in the morning?

19        A.   While I was there, there were no surrenders.  Nobody was

20     captured.  Muslims absolutely did not pass through there at all.

21        Q.   On line 85 -- or, rather, page 85, line 4, you were suggested

22     that you protected Muslims from the Serbian forces attacks.

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   In your statement provided in 2008, in paragraph 6 you stated

25     that you were protecting them from paramilitaries.  What is correct,

Page 36246

 1     which of the two are correct?

 2        A.   Paramilitaries is correct.  We were afraid -- or, rather, that

 3     was a message conveyed to us from the command to be afraid of

 4     retaliation, because one or two years before that, a lot of Serbs had

 5     been killed by Muslims, and that's why the command issued us an order in

 6     order to prevent any retaliation efforts.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  What was specifically --

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.

 9             MS. EDGERTON:  Sorry, before it disappears from our LiveNote

10     screens, a transcript correction at page 102, line 5, Dr. Karadzic is

11     said to have asked the witness:  "You were asked about being captured,"

12     and I'm sure that's not what Dr. Karadzic would have said.

13             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction:  It was about people

14     being captured, not about the witness being captured.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like to thank Ms. Edgerton

16     for spotting the mistake in the interpretation.

17             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   My question was whether you captured anybody.

19        A.   No.  No, President, we didn't.

20             JUDGE MORRISON:  Dr. Karadzic, before I forget, just one issue

21     for the witness.

22             You said you were protecting the Muslims from the potential for

23     them being attacked by paramilitaries.  Did your forces ever engage the

24     paramilitaries in terms of a stand-off or actual combat?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There were a few incidents in the

Page 36247

 1     city involving paramilitaries.

 2             JUDGE MORRISON:  Were you ever personally, or your platoon, ever

 3     as a platoon, engaged in such matters?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Never.  I was a member of the MUP

 5     from 1993, I still am, and I have never belonged to any other units.  I

 6     was never affiliated with any other unit.

 7             JUDGE MORRISON:  No, I'm not suggesting you were.  What I was

 8     asking was whether either you or any member of your platoon at the time

 9     were actively engaged in a stand-off or combat between yourselves and

10     paramilitary units.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] During that period of time, no, we

12     did not.  I don't remember that we did.

13             JUDGE MORRISON:  At any period of time?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Perhaps later, once we arrived in

15     town.  There were incidents involving paramilitary groups.  There were

16     attacks launched at our station or things like that.

17             JUDGE MORRISON:  And did your unit or your company suffer any

18     casualties as a result of engagement with paramilitary forces?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't remember.

20             JUDGE MORRISON:  That would be perhaps quite a memorable thing if

21     one Serbian unit of whatever description was attacked by another Serbian

22     unit of whatever description and Serbs were killed by Serbs or wounded by

23     Serbs.  You're saying you have no memory of that?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't remember.  There were no

25     casualties, which is why I'm saying that I do not remember.

Page 36248

 1             JUDGE MORRISON:  Thank you.  Oh, one other --

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 3             JUDGE MORRISON:  What was the company strength, and what was your

 4     platoon strength in terms of numbers of men?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The company had about 100 men.  The

 6     platoon should have had about 30, but that was never the case.  In

 7     practice it was not the case.  Some were wounded and were on sick leave.

 8     Some were on furlough and so on and so forth.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  We need to adjourn as soon as possible.  How many

10     more minutes do you need, Mr. Karadzic?

11             THE ACCUSED:  Five minutes, Excellency, maybe --

12             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  Five minutes, not any more.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

14             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   Let's clarify one thing.  When you say you don't remember, the

16     way I understood you was there was no casualties or that I would

17     remember.

18        A.   Yes, there were no casualties.

19        Q.   What was your task?  When you were dispatched at Potocari, what

20     were you sent to do there?

21        A.   In 1995?

22        Q.   Yes.

23        A.   As in my statement, it was to scour the terrain and to come close

24     to a group of Muslims and to provide security for them.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I am referring the Trial Chamber to

Page 36249

 1     the testimony of KDZ084, who said the same thing before this

 2     Trial Chamber.

 3             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   You provided a statement in 2008 as a suspect; right?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   How did that status end?

 7        A.   I was a suspect for the case of Srebrenica in 1995.  I was

 8     suspended for two years.  I didn't work.  Later on I returned, and the

 9     proceedings against me or investigations against me were dropped due to

10     the lack of evidence.  And the same was the case with all of the other

11     members who were with me there.

12        Q.   You're no longer a suspect?  You were never charged with any

13     crimes?

14        A.   That's correct.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Micic.  I have no

16     further questions for you.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Ms. Edgerton.

19             MS. EDGERTON:  Your Honours, may I have one question in re-cross

20     arising from the questions from His Honour Judge Morrison with regard to

21     paramilitaries?

22             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.

23                           Further Cross-examination by Ms. Edgerton:

24        Q.   Just one question, Mr. Witness, very quickly.  There were no Serb

25     paramilitaries or paramilitaries of any kind in Bratunac in July 1995,

Page 36250

 1     were there?

 2        A.   I can't remember.  In 1995, I didn't see anybody.

 3             MS. EDGERTON:  Thank you.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Let me clarify just one thing very

 5     briefly.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  About what, Mr. Karadzic?  Without putting the

 7     question.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] About Ms. Edgerton's question.

 9     Let's ask the witness when the police station was attacked by

10     paramilitaries.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't remember exactly.  In 1993,

12     in 1994.  I don't know exactly when that was.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] That's all.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  We'll stop here.

15             Thank you, Mr. Micic.  That concludes your evidence.  Thank you

16     for your coming to The Hague to give it.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

18             JUDGE KWON:  We will adjourn here, and we'll continue tomorrow at

19     9.00.

20                           [The witness withdrew]

21                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.51 p.m.,

22                           to be reconvened on Thursday, the 28th day

23                           of March, 2013, at 9.00 a.m.