1 Tuesday, 1 October 2013
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.35 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone in and around this
7 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours.
9 This is the case IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
11 The Chamber was informed that the Prosecution would like to raise
12 a preliminary matter.
13 MR. GROOME: Good morning, Your Honours. There are a few matters
14 this morning.
15 First, with respect to RM509, the Prosecution owes the Chamber a
16 decision on whether we will call that witness. I want to inform the
17 Chamber of the Prosecution's decision with respect to the need to adduce
18 the evidence of RM509. In short, the Prosecution does not intend to call
19 this witness with the caveat which I will explain below given that there
20 is a small chance that it may still be necessary to call him to establish
21 the foundation for two intercepts.
22 Your Honour, the next bit of my submission requires or --
23 private session because it deals with a protected witness, so I'd ask
24 that we go into private session.
25 JUDGE ORIE: We move into private session.
1 [Private session]
8 [Open session]
9 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
10 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, now with respect to RM247, the Chamber
11 provisionally admitted the evidence of RM247 pursuant to 92 bis on the
12 6th of September, 2013. The Prosecution has decided to move to withdraw
13 this witness because during the attestation process the witness provided
14 inconsistent information on one aspect of his statement. We have already
15 provided information about this to the Mladic Defence pursuant to
16 Rule 68.
17 If the Chamber will entertain an oral motion to withdraw him, we
18 would do that, or if the Chamber would prefer that it be done in writing,
19 we would do that in due course.
20 JUDGE ORIE: I think it can be done orally, even on the spot. I
21 do understand that you withdraw the motion to have the evidence of
22 Witness RM247 to be withdrawn from the 92 bis application.
23 MR. GROOME: That's correct, Your Honour.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then we'll have a look at it, but most likely
25 we'll give a very short oral decision.
1 Please proceed.
2 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, this next application addresses two --
3 two intercepts, 65 ters 20873 and 28036, and I've spoken to Mr. Lukic
4 about this so he knows that I'm making this application.
5 On 19th of September, the Chamber entered its decision on the
6 admission of evidence related to RM506 [Realtime transcript read in
7 error "RM5067"]. At that time, the Chamber inquired about the tendering
8 of the same item of evidence with duplicate 65 ter numbers, and that is
9 65 ter 2873 [sic] and 28036. The Prosecution has reviewed the -- the
10 Chamber's comments about these two exhibits, and now withdraws the
11 tendering of 20873 and re-tenders, 28036. As the Chamber correctly
12 pointed out there are differences in the English translations, although
13 the B/C/S text is the same. The Prosecution relies on 28036 as this
14 exhibit has the official CLSS translation and the other was a draft
16 Additionally, the Chamber inquired about the difference in the
17 number of the heading of the intercept. The Prosecution submits that
18 these two numbers reflect that the intercept was entered twice in the
19 bookkeeping system for intercepts and relies on RM506's general
20 explanation of the meaning of these heading numbers as -- as mentioned in
21 his testimony.
22 So the -- at this time, the Prosecution tenders 28036.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Groome, on page 4, line 4, a number, "2873,"
24 appears, may I take it that you intended to say or even have said
1 MR. GROOME: That's correct. Thank you for that, Your Honour.
2 JUDGE ORIE: And then we also have on page 4, line 2, a
3 "Witness RM5067" and that should be "RM506," I take it.
4 MR. GROOME: That's correct.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then the question that remains is, is there
6 any objection against admission of 28036?
7 MR. LUKIC: Good morning, Your Honours.
8 Mr. Groome informed me this morning about this issue, but we --
9 JUDGE ORIE: If you need more time.
10 MR. LUKIC: Yeah, we didn't have time to check. Probably we
11 wouldn't have any objections, but we have to check.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, could we hear from you not later than this
14 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour.
15 JUDGE ORIE: That's hereby on the record.
16 Mr. Groome.
17 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, the next issue is a request from the
18 Prosecution for the Chamber to clarify a recent decision on the
19 Prosecution's 18th Rule 92 bis motion entered on the 23rd of 2013, with
20 respect to the witness, Mirsad Krlic.
21 In paragraph 7 of the decision, the Chamber states that the
22 Witness Krlic's attestation in his testimony in the Krajisnik case meets
23 the attestation requirement of Rule 92 bis B. However, in paragraph 15,
24 the Chamber instructs the Prosecution to file the corresponding
25 attestation and declaration to Mr. Krlic's statement. So the Prosecution
1 is simply asking for the Chamber to review its decision and perhaps
2 clarify it for us.
3 JUDGE ORIE: If I can deal with that very quickly, Mr. Groome.
4 I read the following for you:
5 On the 23rd of September, the Chamber issued its decision on the
6 Prosecution's 18th motion pursuant to Rule 92 bis. In the disposition,
7 the Chamber instructed the Prosecution to file an attestation and
8 declaration in relation to the 27th of June, 1996, witness statement of
9 Mirsad Krlic and the supplemental information sheet of the 24th of April,
10 2005, in relation to the same witness.
11 The Chamber wishes to clarify that it is not necessary for the
12 attestation and declarations to be filed in relation to Witness Krlic as
13 the Chamber had already deemed as sufficient the attestation provided by
14 him in a previous case.
15 MR. GROOME: Thank you. The Prosecution --
16 JUDGE ORIE: That resolves the matter.
17 MR. GROOME: The Prosecution appreciates the clarification.
18 Mr. Traldi is present in court to raise one last brief matter. And,
19 Your Honour, can I just simply say that Ms. Hochhauser has been delayed.
20 Something has come up and she will be here, I believe, in the next few
21 minutes, but I will be here to take the cross-examination of Mr. Hogan.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
23 Mr. Traldi.
24 MR. TRALDI: Good morning, Mr. President. Can we move go into
25 private session, please.
1 JUDGE ORIE: We move into private session.
2 [Private session]
11 Page 17714 redacted. Private session.
10 [Open session]
11 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
13 Is the Defence ready to continue the cross-examination of
14 Mr. Hogan?
15 Could I ask you, Mr. Lukic, may I take it that you'll finish
16 today at what moment approximately?
17 MR. LUKIC: Well, we -- we spent some time in this session, my
18 plan was to finish in the first two sessions.
19 JUDGE ORIE: In the first two sessions.
20 MR. LUKIC: But now I'm lacking 20 minutes.
21 JUDGE ORIE: You're lacking 20 minutes, but at least --
22 MR. LUKIC: I will --
23 JUDGE ORIE: Since the next witness will be ready to testify only
24 on Thursday, it's for sure that we'll conclude the testimony of Mr. Hogan
1 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
3 Then the witness is -- we're waiting for the witness.
4 Meanwhile, I deal with a very short matter related to P1467,
5 which was admitted into evidence with Mirko Trivic. The Chamber requests
6 the Registry to replace the English translation of P1467 with a new
7 version that has been uploaded into e-court under number 65 ter 25860 a.
8 [The witness takes the stand]
9 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Mr. Hogan.
10 THE WITNESS: Good morning, Your Honour.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Again, I remind you that you're still bound by the
12 solemn declaration you gave at the beginning of your testimony.
13 WITNESS: BARRY HOGAN [Resumed]
14 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic will now continue his cross-examination.
16 Cross-examination by Mr. Lukic: [Continued]
17 Q. Good morning, Mr. Hogan.
18 A. Good morning, Mr. Lukic.
19 Q. We had some technical problems yesterday, so I'll try to fix it
20 today and just ask you to put that red dot again. Hopefully it would
21 work today.
22 A. Yes.
23 MR. LUKIC: So we need -- it was accepted yesterday, but I don't
24 know if it's in the system since it broke down. I'll ask for 1D514.
25 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, I think that a number was already
2 assigned to the marked map D376, so if the witness now marks this map
3 that will then, once being marked, be admitted as D376.
4 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Hogan, you're invited to, again, put the red
6 dot --
7 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honour.
8 JUDGE ORIE: -- at the place of the house where ...
9 THE WITNESS: Approximately there.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Any further marking required, Mr. Lukic? If not --
11 MR. LUKIC: No, Your Honour.
12 JUDGE ORIE: -- then this one will be saved and is the admitted
13 version of D376.
14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Hogan, may I ask you, yesterday, if I
15 remember correctly, you put the red dot on the other site of that street.
16 THE WITNESS: Yes, I did, Your Honour. And I -- I -- I attempted
17 to again this morning. However, the -- the dot is so much bigger than a
18 house so I thought, well, it's approximately there.
19 JUDGE FLUEGGE: In your recollection is this on the right side of
20 this street or on the left side of the street?
21 THE WITNESS: From this view-point it's on the left side. It's
22 on the west side of the street. I see it has disappeared. I can mark it
23 again, if you wish.
24 JUDGE ORIE: There's no need to have it marked again because we
25 could -- now --
1 MR. LUKIC: There is a problem. Nobody's receiving B/C/S
3 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. The B/C/S translation is still not received.
4 MR. LUKIC: It's okay now.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Now it is apparently. What I do not fully
6 understand is nowadays we have technological means which are so much more
7 precise. If you take a Google Earth, you most likely would be able to
8 spot this one single house. So, therefore, why are we working with this,
9 if I could say, old-fashioned systems, if it comes down to one house.
10 I would invite the parties to see whether they could get a
11 Google Earth picture of this ...
12 MR. GROOME: Your Honour --
13 JUDGE ORIE: I do not know what -- what the Defence, of course,
14 wants to do with the blue circles and the red dot. Of course, much
15 depends. If it's just to say it was in this area apart from that we knew
16 that already, that it doesn't make any -- but if later on we are trying
17 to reconstruct on the basis of maps lines of sight and whether they
18 crossed over a cemetery or not, then why not use the most precise
19 technical means?
20 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, once the witness is released as a
21 witness we will ask Mr. Hogan to look at Google Earth and see if the
22 house is still there, it's in the same location, and, if so, I'll
23 negotiate with Mr. Lukic about doing that.
24 I was going to suggest for our purposes today could we not just
25 zoom in on that portion of the map and allow Mr. Hogan to put a more
1 precise mark.
2 And, finally, Your Honours, to remind the Chamber of something I
3 said at the start of the case, the Prosecution does have a very
4 sophisticated mapping programme which allows the calculation of lines of
5 sight elevations. It is very precise. It's, I think, the
6 state-of-the-art technology. So if the Chamber or the Defence ever want
7 to -- to look at it and rely or -- or explore the possible use of it in
8 the trial, the Prosecution would make the arrangements to make that
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, a lot of offers to improve the accuracy
11 of your questioning.
12 MR. LUKIC: Yeah.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
14 MR. LUKIC: We were just being reminded how OTP is powerful and
15 we are not --
16 JUDGE ORIE: Well, Mr. Lukic, Mr. Lukic, Google Earth is not
17 something so special that I might even attempt to get you the
18 Google Earth picture of that specific area during the break. Takes me
19 five minute, approximately, but it has got nothing to do with resources.
20 Please proceed.
21 [Trial Chamber confers]
22 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, just to be sure, D376 has been --
23 is now saved and is in the body of evidence as admitted.
24 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. The initial document 1D00514
25 has -- that was assigned D376 has been replaced with the new document, as
1 marked by the witness [Overlapping speakers] ...
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
3 THE REGISTRAR: [Overlapping speakers] number.
4 JUDGE ORIE: And now we have the unmarked version still on our
6 Mr. Lukic, you may proceed.
7 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
8 Now I'd like to have 1D515 in the e-court, please.
9 If we could zoom in a bit more the middle of the picture. Bit
10 more. And just bit more. Thank you.
11 Q. [Interpretation] In this photograph, sir, we see in the centre, a
12 bit to the right from the centre, a part of the Muslim cemetery we spoke
13 about yesterday; is that right?
14 A. It's difficult for me to make that out, but I wouldn't be
15 surprised. I can see it a little bit more clearly now, and I think it
16 might be part of the cemetery, yes.
17 Q. Could you put a circle around the place where you see this part
18 of the cemetery, please.
19 A. [Marks]
20 MR. LUKIC: Can we have this exhibit -- we would like to tender
21 it [overlapping speakers] evidence.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, photograph marked by the witness.
23 THE REGISTRAR: Receives number D377, Your Honours.
24 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence.
25 MR. LUKIC: If we could now have D377 on one part -- side of the
1 screen, and beside it, to have 1D516.
2 Q. [Interpretation] This looks in the same direction, only the lens
3 is turned a bit sideways, and it was photographed from outside the house
4 where the incident happened; correct?
5 A. If you're talking about the view from the location where the
6 little girl was shot, this shows a different angle. This -- what we're
7 looking at does not look in the same direction towards Baba Stijena.
8 Q. When you were on the spot, were you able to see this cemetery?
9 A. I don't believe that I noticed the cemetery from the porch or
10 from the entrance-way of the witness's house, victim witness's house.
11 I -- we had to zoom in quite a bit for me to see what looked like
12 headstones on that photograph just now.
13 MR. LUKIC: Can we have then D377 back on our screens, please.
14 THE REGISTRAR: It takes just a little bit of time for it to be
15 uploaded. I'm sorry.
16 MR. LUKIC: Yeah.
17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Perhaps it's easier to use the unmarked version
18 with the 1D number --
19 MR. LUKIC: [Overlapping speakers] ...
20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: -- 514. If you want to compare the two, it's
21 perhaps not necessary to have the marked version on the screen.
22 MR. LUKIC: It's only -- yeah -- thank you, Your Honour. It's
23 only 1D515, I think.
24 JUDGE FLUEGGE: You are right.
25 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
1 Q. Here, Mr. Hogan, we see - can you see it now? - this cemetery we
3 A. Yes. After -- after we had zoomed in and I can see the un-zoomed
4 part, I can make it out, yes.
5 Q. Thank you.
6 MR. LUKIC: We'll need that picture on our screens. Okay. Now
7 we have ...
8 JUDGE ORIE: Now, the marked photograph was a zoomed-in version
9 of the photograph produced by the Defence, which makes less clear that
10 the position from where the photograph was taken is at least different
11 from the position taken at the time by Mr. Hogan, who said that he had
12 taken that picture from the position; that is, place and the height of
13 the lens adapted to a small child.
14 And, therefore, Mr. Lukic, of course, the Chamber will ask itself
15 what is the use of saying that there is a line of sight to a point
16 different from the point where the victim was hit. So if you would
17 please keep that in mind when further developing your Defence position.
18 MR. LUKIC: Mm-hm. Can we have D125, please.
19 Q. [Interpretation] This is a photograph that you took; correct?
20 A. I can't remember if it was -- I personally took it or my
21 colleague took it, but I was present, one way or the other.
22 Q. [In English] Yes, thank you.
23 [Interpretation] Could you mark on this photograph the location
24 of Baba Stijena?
25 A. Oh, I'm sorry.
1 MR. GROOME: Your Honour.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Groome.
3 MR. GROOME: So the record is clear and so that I understand what
4 we're looking at, although Mr. Lukic is mentioned that it is a photo, and
5 I agree with that, it appears to be some black markings on it. So the
6 record should reflect that is already marked but -- and Mr. Lukic could
7 enlighten me as to what those markings are. I certainly would appreciate
9 JUDGE ORIE: It reads "baba," if I ...
10 MR. LUKIC: And obviously it's marked by Ms. Fatima Pita. It
11 says at the left part of this picture, on 25th of September, 2001.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And do we need those markings, Mr. Lukic,
13 because, if not, we'd rather use a -- a -- an unmarked photograph.
14 But ... I don't know what you're -- what you're heading for.
15 MR. LUKIC: That's -- that's the only photo we have. That's why
16 we used marked version. I would like to have clean version as well.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. But then please put your questions. If the
18 Prosecution could find -- try to find whether there's a blank version.
19 But it may not influence ...
20 THE WITNESS: I have not marked the photograph as yet. But do
21 you wish me to do so?
22 MR. LUKIC:
23 Q. Yes, please.
24 A. [Marks]
25 MR. LUKIC: So if we can -- if there is no any unmarked version
1 of this picture, if we can save this one as the next Defence exhibit.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Photograph previously marked, now marked by
3 the witness, Madam Registrar, would receive number ...
4 THE REGISTRAR: Number D378, Your Honours.
5 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence.
6 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. At that time, Mr. Hogan, did you know, and do you know today,
8 that the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina controlled the area of the cemetery;
9 in fact, the entire area up to Baba Stijena?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. You were on the ground. Do you agree that the cemetery is
12 approximately halfway between the site of the incident and Baba Stijena?
13 A. Probably a third. But I -- I hadn't measured it so I will not
14 dispute approximately half, yes. Yes.
15 Q. Did you establish the distance from the site of the incident to
16 Baba Stijena?
17 A. I did. Actually, the sniping expert established the distance and
18 I was standing beside him, and I do not recall what exactly it was.
19 Q. So, on that occasion, you did not only rely on what the mother,
20 Fatima Pita, and the father, Ekrem Pita, told you about the distance to
21 Baba Stijena?
22 A. No, we did not only rely on them, no.
23 Q. And did you establish on that occasion if there was optical
24 visibility of the house from the cemetery we have just seen?
25 A. No. Because we could not see the cemetery from the location from
1 which the -- where the little girl was standing.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, your question was whether there was
3 "optical visibility of the house from the cemetery we have just seen."
4 Did you mean to say the cemetery we just have seen or a line of
5 visibility we have just seen?
6 MR. LUKIC: Cemetery.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Cemetery. Just cemetery. Okay. Please proceed.
8 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.
9 Q. [Interpretation] Did you establish whether the same trees existed
10 in the year of the incident - let me see, 13th December 1992 - and at the
11 moment when you were on the site?
12 A. We asked about the tree that was growing between the witness's
13 house and the next-door house that we saw circled in the black in the --
14 the previous photograph. But we did not establish the growth of the
15 other trees in the immediate area of the victim's house.
16 Q. And what did you establish about the tree that you made inquiries
18 A. That that had been planted and grown since the incident occurred,
19 so between the time of the shooting and the time of the photograph
20 showing the tree, and -- which is the reason that the witness circled it
21 in black during her testimony.
22 Q. Thank you. Yesterday we began discussing GOFRS. Let me just
23 tell you that on transcript page in our trial 1817, lines 15
24 through 12 [as interpreted], and page 1803, line 14, up to 1804, line 1,
25 Mr. John Jordan explained that GOFRS were located on the site related to
1 the incident F12, where fire was opened at Dzenana Sokolovic and her
2 7-year-old son, Nermin Divovic, while they were walking along
3 Zmaja od Bosne Street.
4 Did you deal with this at all, and did you establish how far the
5 members and the vehicles of the GOFRS were from the site of the incident?
6 A. They were parked in their vehicle within 50 metres of the
7 UNPROFOR APC, as far as I can recall. And I'm getting my information
8 from the video and from my previous interview with Mr. Jordan and his
9 previous testimony in another trial. And I'm -- the -- the figure of
10 50 metres sort of sticks in my mind, within 50 metres of the UNPROFOR
12 Q. Regarding this incident, F12, Mr. van der Weijden maintained on
13 page 6538 and -39, the transcript of this trial, that the co-ordinates
14 you determined were not accurate, at least not the co-ordinates that he
15 received from the Office of the Prosecutor.
16 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we now see on the screens
17 page 6539. [In English] can we see our transcript or ...
18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Could you repeat the number. It's unclear on the
20 MR. LUKIC: It's page of transcript, 6539.
21 THE REGISTRAR: Is it uploaded in e-court?
22 MR. LUKIC: It's not. But before we were able to see our
23 transcript, even if it's not uploaded in e-court.
24 JUDGE FLUEGGE: You are talking about our transcript, in our
1 MR. LUKIC: Yes, mm-hm.
2 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
3 MS. HOCHHAUSER: Ms. Stewart also informs that she can show in
4 Sanction, if that's --
5 JUDGE ORIE: It can be shown by Madam Registrar as well, although
6 this is not the usual way we operate, Mr. Lukic. And, of course,
7 everyone in this courtroom, apart from Sanction, can have a look at
8 transcript from any day in e-court. So if you have the day and if you
9 just intend to read from it, because you can't, then automatically have
10 it admitted, but ...
11 THE REGISTRAR: We need the date also.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, which witness? Mr. van der Weijden, you
14 MR. GROOME: It's January 10th of 2013. And, again, Ms. Stewart
15 has the passage right on the screen if that's [Overlapping speakers] ...
16 JUDGE ORIE: [Overlapping speakers] ... okay, then if Ms. Stewart
17 would assist us, then that would be appreciated.
18 Could we have it on our screens.
19 MR. LUKIC: We need line 9 to line 14. And I will read.
20 I quote:
21 "Q. Okay. And were there instances where the co-ordinates that
22 were given to you by the OTP Prosecutor -- investigators did not
23 correlate with that which you have found? I mean, how do we know that?
24 Where is that reflected in your report?
25 "A. I would refer to case F12, which is the incident that was
1 discussed earlier this -- this morning."
2 Q. [Interpretation] Do you know about this position of
3 Mr. van der Weijden, and do you know who provided him with information
4 about the co-ordinates related to the F12 incident?
5 A. I'm not -- I don't know what position Mr. van der Weijden had.
6 All I heard you say is, I will refer to incident F12. I -- I don't know
7 what else he said after that.
8 Q. Did you know that he objected to these co-ordinates he received
9 from OTP investigators?
10 A. No, I didn't know that.
11 Q. Now I should like to ask you to reflect upon the incident F3 in
12 which Mrs. Munira Zametica died.
13 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we bring up in e-court 1D1308.
14 Q. As far as I was able to see from the information available to us,
15 you were here on site sometime around noon. Can you remember?
16 A. I don't remember the time of the day.
17 Q. Could we now, with the assistance of my colleague, Mr. Ivetic,
18 look at a video --
19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, what are we looking at at this moment? I
20 see four persons close to a bridge, apparently close to water. Was it
21 taken by whom? What does it depict?
22 MR. LUKIC: It's taken from somebody -- by somebody from
23 Mr. Hogan's team when they were in Sarajevo, I guess. Not --
24 JUDGE ORIE: Well, that's good to know, but I can't guess. And
25 what is -- which direction? Could we invite Mr. Hogan then to tell us
1 what we're looking at.
2 THE WITNESS: Your Honour, this photograph was taken by one of
3 the members of the videography team who was on the opposite bank of the
4 Dobrinja river from the location where the victim had been shot. If we
5 will look in the bottom right-hand corner of the photograph, we can see a
6 yellow X.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yeah.
8 THE WITNESS: That, I believe, if you recall the video of this
9 incident, we can see Mr. Lesic, my colleague, marking the X on the
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Perfectly clear.
12 Please proceed.
13 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
14 Q. Could you mark now on this photograph the place where you were
15 told Mr. Zametica was standing?
16 A. Well, it's the -- it's the yellow X, so I'll circle the yellow X.
17 JUDGE ORIE: And perhaps you assist me in -- I may have forgotten
18 about it, but the level of the water was considered here --
19 THE WITNESS: Your Honour, the level of the water in this
20 photograph is higher than the day that she was killed by the gun-shot.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And, therefore, likely the yellow cross would
22 have been, if you fetch water from the river, as close to the water as
23 the water level was at that time. Is that --
24 THE WITNESS: That's accurate, Your Honour.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
1 Please proceed.
2 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. Could you just tell us, are you able to determine where north,
4 south, west, east are on this photograph?
5 A. Yes. In Dobrinja at this location, the river runs generally
6 north/north-west, and upstream is south/south-east. So we are looking to
7 the south-west in this location.
8 Q. Relative to the bridge, this spot marked as the one where
9 Mrs. Zametica was standing, relative to the bridge, would it be to the
10 south, north, west, east? Approximately.
11 I'll just explain why I'm asking this: Did the shadow of the
12 bridge move and around 3.00 p.m., was it, in fact, covering the spot
13 marked here?
14 A. First of all, the -- the marking is north of the bridge. And as
15 far as the shadow of the bridge, I cannot give you an answer to that.
16 MR. LUKIC: It's break time so we'll have to break now.
17 JUDGE ORIE: It is break time.
18 [Trial Chamber confers]
19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, would you like to tender the photograph
20 as marked by the witness.
21 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour. Yes, Your Honour.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, the number would be ...
23 THE REGISTRAR: Photograph 1D1308 as marked by the witness
24 receives number D379, Your Honours.
25 JUDGE ORIE: D379 is admitted into evidence.
1 Could the witness be escorted out of the courtroom.
2 We'd like to see you back in 20 minutes.
3 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honour.
4 [The witness stands down]
5 JUDGE ORIE: We take a break, and we resume at ten minutes
6 to 11.00.
7 --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.
8 --- On resuming at 10.54 a.m.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.
10 Meanwhile, I deal with the following matter: On Friday, the
11 27th of September - that was last week, Friday - the Defence filed a
12 motion requesting an extension to respond to the Prosecution's motion for
13 admission of the evidence of RM518 pursuant to Rule 92 quater, citing the
14 current workload of the Defence and the voluminous nature of the
15 proffered evidence.
16 The Chamber, having considered both of these factors as well as
17 the Prosecution's standing submission that it will not object to
18 reasonable requests for extensions, hereby grants the Defence request and
19 sets the new deadline of 28th of October for the response.
20 [The witness takes the stand]
21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic.
22 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we please get P3, and we'll
23 need page 14 of this document on the screens.
24 Q. Mr. Hogan, when you spoke to Sadija Sahinovic, who showed you
25 where Mrs. Zametica was killed, did she tell you that the shots were
1 fired from the church? Or how did you establish that the late
2 Ms. Zametica was hit from shots from the church?
3 A. The investigation reports indicated that the shots came from that
4 direction. I don't recall at this moment what Mrs. Sahinovic said in his
5 statement, but it is in the record. It can be very easily checked.
6 Q. Can you mark the church window in this photograph. You've
7 already said that this is zoomed in. So this is not the view from the
9 Please just mark the window.
10 A. I'm afraid it's rather dark on the screen. If it can be zoomed
11 in a little bit, maybe I could see the -- that area a little bit better.
12 Q. [In English] I'm sorry, I need this photo like this because we
13 have to see some other buildings as well.
14 A. Okay.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, if the witness can't do it, he can't do
17 MR. LUKIC: Then okay. Then he cannot.
18 JUDGE ORIE: That's ... and "the window," is that supposed to be
19 one window or ...
20 MR. LUKIC: I don't know.
21 JUDGE ORIE: You don't know.
22 MR. LUKIC: I don't know.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Well, you asked to mark "the window," so,
24 therefore --
25 MR. LUKIC: Yeah --
1 JUDGE ORIE: Or is every window good enough? Is there -- the
2 suggestion is, Mr. Lukic, that this witness would have established that
3 the shot was fired from a window of that church. That is what you -- is
4 apparently underlying your question.
5 Let's first establish whether the witness did so and then ask
6 him, if that's the case, whether he could further assist us in what
7 window and -- did you -- you heard the question. Did you establish
8 that -- I heard you say a second ago that the -- you established that the
9 shot was fired from that direction. Did you -- did your investigation
10 result in an opinion that the shot was fired from a window from this
12 THE WITNESS: Your Honour, the question of a window never entered
13 my investigation --
14 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Under those circumstances, Mr. Lukic, there's
15 no need to ask the witness to mark windows he has not dealt with in his
17 Please proceed.
18 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.
19 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Can the photograph be zoomed in without taking
20 away anything from the photograph itself because the frame is rather
22 MR. LUKIC: If you wish to do so but now witness said that he
23 does not know from which window.
24 JUDGE ORIE: We -- we could have done it if the witness would
25 have -- yes. I did it on my screen. It's perfectly -- well, perfectly.
1 It is possible to zoom in further, but there's no need to do it at this
2 very moment.
3 Please proceed.
4 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
5 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Hogan, did you establish the distance
6 between the church and the site? And is it about 1100 metres?
7 A. The -- again, the sniping expert established the exact distance.
8 It is around 1100 metres, I agree with you, but I don't know exactly the
9 number. It's in the report though.
10 Q. All the buildings we see in this photograph are in the territory
11 controlled by the BH army; is that correct?
12 A. No, that's not correct. There's a portion of one apartment
13 building that's visible. That is in the VRS-controlled territory.
14 Q. Can you mark that building, the one that, according to you, is on
15 VRS-controlled territory.
16 A. I'm afraid -- yeah, the corner of that building behind that
17 rectangle. I'm afraid I didn't outline it very well. It's very hard to
18 see on this screen.
19 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I repeat my suggestion to enlarge it until to the
20 end of the frame. And then it could be marked again, perhaps.
21 MR. LUKIC: Yes. Thank you. Now we can do that since the
22 witness can establish this point.
23 JUDGE ORIE: We now go back to the -- to the version which was
24 previously marked with a black arrow. We now zoom in considerably. See
25 even more. Even more. Even more. That's -- no, that's a bit too much.
1 Zoom out, please. Right mouse click will do. One step further. One
2 step further. One step further. That's it.
3 THE WITNESS: And I can mark this now, Your Honour.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please do so.
5 THE WITNESS: Oops.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Oops. Off it goes again.
7 Well, if this is -- if this is still... yes. Let's store it
8 quickly before it disappeared again.
9 MR. LUKIC: Yes. Can this be marked as next Defence exhibit.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Madam Registrar, the number would be -- the
11 marked photograph now again marked with blue by this witness.
12 THE REGISTRAR: Receives number D380, Your Honours.
13 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence.
14 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. Do you know, or did you learn that on that bridge that can be
16 seen in other photographs there was, in fact, a firing position of the BH
17 army. Did Ms. Sadija Sahinovic tell you that?
18 A. I never learned that, I never knew that, and Mrs. Sahinovic did
19 not tell me that.
20 Q. Do you know that after the wounding of Ms. Zametica fire was
21 opened at Serbian position and that that fire continued for about half an
23 A. I know that after the shooting of Ms. Zametica fire was opened at
24 the VRS position in order to retrieve the body of Mrs. Zametica from the
25 water. I don't know how long it continued.
1 Q. In this trial, two documents originating from the BH army were
2 shown to us, P29 --
3 THE INTERPRETER: Could counsel please repeat the numbers.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Please repeat, Mr. Lukic, the number.
5 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] P2389 and P2390.
6 Q. They are BH army reports in which we read that there's an
7 observation post in the church. Among other things, it is stated that
8 the Serbian forces have an anti-aircraft machine-gun there, amongst other
10 Did you ever check whether it is possible to place an
11 anti-aircraft machine-gun in the -- in a church tower? You know the size
12 of that weapon?
13 A. I never checked whether it's possible. I don't remember if it
14 actually said in the tower of that -- whether the document said in the
15 tower of the church. But I've never checked it, no.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, could you take us exactly -- again, I
17 think we've looked at it before, but where exactly we read what you just
18 have put to the witness.
19 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] In the B/C/S version, it's on page 3.
20 I suppose it's page 3 in the English version too.
21 THE REGISTRAR: You called two documents and [Overlapping
22 speakers] English version.
23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Once again. It was not heard.
24 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, just for the clarity, the counsel
25 called two documents, P2389 and P2390, so we published English versions
1 of each of those two documents.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Perhaps at this moment -- now that makes it
3 more difficult for me to scroll through it.
4 MR. LUKIC: We need the third page. Let's keep the left one.
5 JUDGE ORIE: We keep the left one.
6 MR. LUKIC: And we don't know which --
7 JUDGE ORIE: And we move to the third page in the right one.
8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: We need the B/C/S for that.
9 MR. LUKIC: Yes.
10 THE REGISTRAR: I need a number for that.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Which of the two?
12 MR. LUKIC: I don't know which the left one is. With the number
13 6664 [Overlapping speakers] ...
14 JUDGE ORIE: But --
15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: What are you asking for, Mr. Lukic? Which
16 document do you need now?
17 MR. LUKIC: I don't have marked number. I was surprised by the
18 number by the -- Judge Orie.
19 JUDGE ORIE: No. Mr. Lukic, you put to the witness that a
20 document or documents contained certain information. What I'm asking you
21 is to tell me where exactly we find it, because part of the answer of the
22 witness was that he does not remember whether the document really said
23 what you put to the witness.
24 MR. LUKIC: Can we have on the screen P2389, please.
25 JUDGE ORIE: And that's dated 2nd of October? That's a document
1 dated the 2nd of October.
2 MR. LUKIC: Let's -- let's have then -- because I thought --
3 let's have the next one. P2390. That's a document from command of
4 5th Motorised Brigade from the 30th of December, 1993. And we need --
5 I'll try with -- we need third page in B/C/S and let's try the third page
6 in English as well.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Okay.
8 MR. LUKIC: Under number -- under number 1. Then let's have the
9 fourth page in English. It's very confusing because of those stamps.
10 Then the second page in English. Sorry.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, if it would assist you, at least on one
12 of the documents, I think I found the clear reference to -- to what you
13 are apparently --
14 MR. LUKIC: Under 2 --
15 JUDGE ORIE: -- seeking.
16 MR. LUKIC: Under title 2, number 1 we need. But I don't see it
17 in English. And it seems like one page is missing in English.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Now you referred to the two documents. Now I'm
19 looking, at this moment, at the document dated the --
20 MR. LUKIC: 30th of December.
21 JUDGE ORIE: No, 2nd of October. And I read to you what it says
22 about -- it says -- it's talking about a church:
23 "The area around the church towards our positions is mined with
24 anti-personnel mines. The enemy uses the church at Veljine exclusively
25 as an observation post. According to our information till now, in the
1 church there are six observers per shift. The observers are armed with
2 snipers and one PAM anti-aircraft machine-gun which is in a well,
3 fortified nest in the church. From the church, fire is rarely being
4 opened, and when it is opened a sniper with a silencer is used. From the
5 direction of Dobrinja 1, towards Veljine, the trolley terminus, a
6 connection trench was made. It is assumed that the enemy shall try to
7 link Dobrinja 4 and Dobrinja 1 with fortifications."
8 That is what the 2nd of October document reads. It is the second
9 page in e-court in English, and I think that you asked the witness
10 whether it was possible to have a PAM in the tower, and I do not see here
11 that -- that an anti-aircraft is described here as being in the tower.
12 MR. LUKIC: Okay. Can we see page 5 in English, please.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Page 5 in English of the same document. Let's have
14 a look at it.
15 Page 5 of the document is --
16 MR. LUKIC: Under number --
17 THE REGISTRAR: This is page 5.
18 MR. LUKIC: Under number 2, the last sentence of P2390, the last
19 sentence, under number 2, at page 5 says:
20 "There is a PAM and a sniper at the church tower below the bell."
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Does that mean that the PAM is below the bell
22 as well? Is that your interpretation? Or is there a PAM and a sniper at
23 the church tower below the bell? I mean that's a matter of
24 interpretation. If they say there is a tank --
25 MR. LUKIC: [Overlapping speakers] ...
1 JUDGE ORIE: If there is a tank at the church -- please, please,
2 Mr. --
3 MR. LUKIC: I'll read in B/C/S, then maybe it's clearer
4 [Overlapping speakers] ...
5 JUDGE ORIE: [Overlapping speakers]... no. I don't want you to
6 interrupt me now for the seventh time.
7 I'm saying that in the English language and it's unclear after I
8 have done finished, you will suggest that you read the B/C/S --
9 MR. LUKIC: Yes.
10 JUDGE ORIE: -- which I now allow to you do.
11 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Please.
13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Can we first establish which document are we
14 looking at --
15 JUDGE ORIE: [Overlapping speakers] ...
16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: -- at the moment. [Overlapping speakers] ...
17 it's dealing with two documents with different numbers and different
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
20 MR. LUKIC: Yes. P2390.
21 JUDGE ORIE: We, at this moment, the one --
22 MR. LUKIC: From the 30th of December, 1993.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I quoted from the 2nd of October but now we
24 moved to the 30th of December document, and let's just --
25 MR. LUKIC: That's on our screen.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Lukic. I referred to page 2 in English of
2 the 2nd of October document, which is an exhibit known under number
4 Apparently we're now moving to the document you would like to
5 focus on, Mr. Lukic, which is P2390, if I am not mistaken. And --
6 MR. LUKIC: You are right. And I will read --
7 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. That's the --
8 MR. LUKIC: -- in B/C/S.
9 JUDGE ORIE: You read in B/C/S the portion you just referred to.
10 MR. LUKIC: That's the last sentence on page 3 in B/C/S and
11 page 5 in English version, under number 2, the last sentence. I'll read
12 in B/C/S so that the proper translation is given:
13 [Interpretation] "In the church, in the tower, under the bell,
14 there are a PAM and a sniper."
15 JUDGE ORIE: That requires then -- there is a difference in
16 translation, I agree with you.
17 Mr. Lukic, you've asked a question whether you can put a PAM in a
18 tower. We see, by the way, that in the one document it's described --
19 it's the 2nd of October document, 2389. It's described in a way
20 different from how it is described in 2390.
21 Having established this, please ask further questions to the
23 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
24 Q. You didn't double-check information at the time when you were in
25 the field, I mean, the information from these documents because you
1 didn't have the chance to do so. Or did you?
2 A. I didn't -- I didn't check whether there was a possibility of
3 having the PAM in that tower, that's correct.
4 JUDGE ORIE: But the question was also whether you were able to
5 double-check on the basis of these documents your findings.
6 THE WITNESS: No, Your Honour. I just received these documents
7 in May of this year.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, That is clear.
9 Please proceed.
10 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
11 Q. I'm going to ask you a question now. It's about incident F5 in
12 which Ramiza Kundo was wounded on the 2nd of November, 1993, while she
13 was carrying buckets of water over the Brijesko Brdo, Brijesko hill.
14 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I would like us to look at a
15 video-clip briefly, with the assistance of Mr. Ivetic. 1D130A is the
16 number. The video is V000-6006. We need the following time stamps:
17 1 hour, 34 minutes, through 1 hour, 35 minutes. It's about the incident
18 of the 11th of July, 1993.
19 [In English] My mistake.
20 JUDGE ORIE: This is a different video. It's not the
21 Brijesko Brdo.
22 MR. LUKIC: No, no. Although I have the same number under this
24 We can start with the picture, P3, and we need page 18.
25 Is this page 18?
1 JUDGE ORIE: If you look at the photograph, I take it that you --
2 this is Brijesko Brdo. I think we've seen it earlier. If you want to
3 know it for sure --
4 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. Sir, related to this incident, did Mrs. Kundo just show you the
6 direction from which she was shot, or did she show you also the place
7 from which the bullet was shot?
8 A. She showed the direction from which she believed the bullet was
10 Q. And on the basis of what did you determine the place?
11 A. I didn't determine the place.
12 JUDGE ORIE: That's again and again a misunderstanding. The
13 witness has recorded what he saw. He has visualised it. He has recorded
14 the statements given. The witness, and rightly so, did not determine
15 what you suggest he did.
16 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we then look at this clip in
17 this interval. 65 ter 1D1310. The interval we'll see is 2 hours, 39
18 minutes, 37 seconds up to 2 hours, 41 minutes, 4 seconds.
19 We can begin.
20 [Video-clip played]
21 MR. LUKIC: We don't have the a sound. Probably need some help
22 from technicians to get sound.
23 JUDGE ORIE: I think Madam Registrar asked already for
25 Is there any way we could play it now with sound?
1 I see the mouth of Mr. Hogan moving, but I don't hear anything in
2 the picture.
3 MS. HOCHHAUSER: We are able to play it with sound from Sanction
4 apparently if that would help.
5 JUDGE ORIE: If that would assist, let's then play it from
7 [Video-clip played]
8 "I put a yellow line and number 1.
9 "Mrs. Kundo, can you now show me, stand where you were located,
10 to the best of your recollection, at the time that you were shot?
11 "I will now mark that spot using yellow spray paint.
12 "I marked it with a yellow X with a number 1 beside it.
13 "Mrs. Kundo, can you face in the direction that you were facing
14 and assume the position that you were, as close as you can, if you can
15 recall, at the time that you were shot.
16 "And finally, can you please indicate from which direction you
17 heard the gun-shot, as closely as you can recall, at the time that you
18 were shot."
19 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
20 Q. Just for the record, Mrs. Kundo showed in this video-clip that
21 the shot came from the left; correct?
22 A. Yes, from down the hill, yes.
23 Q. She confirmed that she was moving from her house to the other
24 side of the street. Is this the direction she claimed she was moving in,
25 the one we see on this video?
1 A. No. This video should be viewed in -- in light of her eventual
2 testimony at the trial. There is some comment during her testimony about
3 this video.
4 Q. Is she correctly positioned in this video relative to the
5 direction of movement or not?
6 A. No, she's not.
7 Q. Did she tell you where the source of water was relative to the
8 direction she was moving in? Behind her or ahead of her?
9 A. Yes. As -- as we're looking to this photo, to our left is her
10 residence and to our right is a -- a hill at the bottom of which is a
11 spring or a stream. And when she was shot, she was coming back up the
12 hill and crossing the street, carrying full pales of water towards her
13 house. So in this picture, she is 180 degrees opposite to what she had
14 said before and subsequently.
15 Q. Did she tell you, or did you find out, how far the confrontation
16 line was from this place?
17 A. I did, and I don't recall what it is right now. And -- and,
18 again, with the assistance of the sniping expert.
19 Q. Let me ask you something briefly about the incident F9.
20 MR. LUKIC: Video from this incident is in our evidence, I think,
21 so there is no need for us to enter this one into evidence, since we
22 quoted exact time-periods we watched now.
23 JUDGE ORIE: I -- I couldn't tell you from the top of my head
24 whether it is or not. But let's verify this and I take it that if it's
25 not in evidence there will be no objection.
1 MR. LUKIC: I'm getting the signs that actually the whole video
2 is not.
3 MS. HOCHHAUSER: Also, off the top of my head, my recollection is
4 that this video with Mrs. Kundo is not in evidence.
5 MR. LUKIC: Thank you. Then we would offer this part to -- into
6 the evidence.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Therefore, it needed to be uploaded in e-court
8 with sound, et cetera. I don't know whether Madam Registrar has
9 sufficient material to admit into -- or to register as admitted into
10 evidence the video, inclusive of sound.
11 THE REGISTRAR: I have received a CD but I cannot confirm exactly
12 what is on the CD.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Then it seems that there will be no disagreement, I
14 take it, among the parties what was shown and then -- yes,
15 Ms. Hochhauser.
16 MS. HOCHHAUSER: Your Honour, I can tell you that we provided
17 this CD to the Registry under 22311F. It would be the entirety of this
18 interview, not specifically what he showed but it would include that.
19 That would be the 65 ter number.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You want to have it in evidence. You do not
21 object. The best technical way of having it into evidence is still to be
22 decided, but we reserve a number at this moment.
23 Madam Registrar, the number reserved for the portion we just
24 looked at would be ...
25 THE REGISTRAR: Reserve number would be D381, Your Honours.
1 JUDGE ORIE: The technicalities for how it will be recorded as
2 evidence are still to be worked out, together with Madam Registrar,
3 whether we take the portion of the Sanction or whether we take something
4 that was uploaded by the Defence under a D number, but where sound
5 apparently could not be produced.
6 MS. HOCHHAUSER: Your Honour, I would just add to that that I
7 don't have an objection to this coming in, but I think appropriately it
8 should come in with the additional testimonial material that the witness
9 referenced, so I would be -- unless counsel is ready to agree to that
10 now, I'll be submitting an additional 92 bis application for her Galic
11 testimony beginning at approximately transcript 5943 to 5950.
12 JUDGE ORIE: I would suggest that the parties try to seek an
13 agreement on the total package video and related testimony in another
15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: In addition, we should put on the record that we
16 saw this video from 2 hours 39 minutes to 2 hours 41 minutes and 24
17 seconds, because the counting was different in the two versions.
18 MS. HOCHHAUSER: I'm additionally informed by Ms. Stewart that
19 the portion of the video that's under that 65 ter number begins in the
20 same place but has approximately six additional minutes of video passed
21 where Mr. Lukic showed in court.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And if you want to have that added, that may
23 be part of the package. I really urge the parties to sit together and to
24 see what the Chamber should receive in evidence on this incident.
25 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: And what do we mark as D381?
2 JUDGE ORIE: We reserved a number, I think.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
4 JUDGE ORIE: We received a number and whether we need further
5 numbers later, depending on what the package deal would be, we do not
6 know yet. Please proceed.
7 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
8 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.
9 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
10 Q. Now I should like to focus on incident F9, wherein 16-year-old
11 Sanela Muratovic was injured. We need again P3, page 21.
12 You recall this. It was said here that the girl,
13 Sanela Muratovic, was injured, and it is said here that it was from the
14 school for the blind.
15 I would like to ask you: During your investigation, did you
16 learn that the upper floor of the school for the blind, on the
17 26th of June, 1994, when this incident occurred was almost completely
18 devastated and there was no cover there at all?
19 A. I did not learn that. In fact, I learned the opposite. It
20 was -- it was not without cover there.
21 Q. How many confrontation lines with the presence of the
22 Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina were there and how distant were they from this
24 A. I am not sure what you're asking me. I know the confrontation
25 line between this location where I'm standing in this photo and the
1 school for the blind, but I'm not sure about how many confrontation lines
2 you're talking. That's confusing to me.
3 Q. Is it the case that this girl is standing in a place where there
4 was a trench of the BH army with soldiers in that trench?
5 A. Well, there was a trench that crossed this road. I was told it
6 was built by civil defence to help civilians cross safely. But there
7 were no soldiers in this trench, no.
8 Q. How do you know that, that there were no troops in the trench?
9 A. The witnesses told me.
18 JUDGE ORIE: We move into private session.
19 [Private session]
13 [Open session]
14 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
16 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. Mr. Hogan, I should like us to focus now on the incident that
18 occurred on 18 November 1994 - that's F12 - where it is said that
19 Dzenana Sokolovic, 31, and her son, Nermin Divovic, were shot while
20 walking along the street.
21 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we see 65 ter 1D1301.
22 Q. Do you remember and do you agree that the place shown by
23 Dzenana Sokolovic as the place where she was shot was close to the land
24 museum in Sarajevo?
25 A. Yes, we're in the parking lot of the museum in Sarajevo.
1 Q. I know you have been asked this in other trials, but for certain
2 verifications, we need to know how tall you are. Is it true that you are
3 193 centimetres tall?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Did you find out, did you ask Dzenana Sokolovic how tall she was?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Thank you. I should like to move now to the football match in
8 Dobrinja. That's the incident of 18 November 1994.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Before we do so, Mr. Lukic, I'm a bit lost about how
10 tall Mr. Hogan is, what the -- what the relevance of that is.
11 If you tell us briefly, then at least we are perhaps better able
12 to remember what was said.
13 MR. LUKIC: Yes. This lady was wounded at the same time when her
14 son was killed.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
16 MR. LUKIC: And it would be important for us to know his height
17 and her height, to be able to establish from which point her son was
18 killed, since we know that she was wounded in the hip, and he was wounded
19 into the head, and it depends of the elevation of the shooting point.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated]
21 MR. LUKIC: Your Honour, I didn't hear you.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm just asking what has that got to do with the
23 height of the witness.
24 MR. LUKIC: Then we can establish the height of the lady standing
25 beside him.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: How do you establish that by establishing his --
2 MR. LUKIC: I think it is possible.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Well, whether or not it's possible, if people are
4 standing at a different distance from the camera is still to be seen.
5 But at least that's what you -- you've explained to us why you needed
6 this information at this moment.
7 Please proceed.
8 MR. LUKIC: We can -- briefly we can see video where they stand
9 at the same distance from camera. It's V000-6997.
10 JUDGE ORIE: They're standing here at an equal distance from the
12 MR. LUKIC: Maybe the lady is a bit closer.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That's what I mean.
14 MR. LUKIC: Yeah. But still I think it's possible to establish
15 the height.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Please proceed.
17 MS. HOCHHAUSER: Actually, if I could just ask for clarification.
18 Mr. Lukic just said we were turning to an incident on
19 18 November 1994?
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I think I stopped him, more or less, and asked
21 him and he was about to move on. And the incident, 18 November, would
22 be, Mr. Lukic, the next one, therefore?
23 MR. LUKIC: No, this was 18 November incident.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
25 MR. LUKIC: And I would now move to soccer game in Dobrinja.
1 It's G incident; it's shelling. I think it's G4. Yes, it is G4.
2 Q. [Interpretation] In September 2001, you were at Dobrinja in the
3 place where the incident of the football match occurred on the
4 1st of June, 1993. Do you remember that?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Let us see one photograph that was taken from your video. That
7 is your 3D picture. We shall need D175. At that time, it was MFI'd.
8 Would you agree -- in fact, first of all, tell us, in your view
9 and according to the witnesses who explained this to you, where, in which
10 place, did the incident occur on this upper slab which is the pitch, or
11 the lower ground, which is the parking lot?
12 A. On the parking lot, where the camera is located taking this
14 Q. Is it correct that both areas are shielded on three sides by
15 these eight-storey apartment buildings and that on the fourth side there
16 is the Mojmilo hill?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Do you agree with me when I say that this area was not visible
19 from the positions of the RS? I mean the pitch and the parking lot.
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. You will therefore agree, won't you, that since this area was not
22 visible, the VRS was unable to target it with infantry weapons, that is,
23 rifles and machine-guns?
24 MS. HOCHHAUSER: Judge, I object to this question.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. On the basis of?
1 MS. HOCHHAUSER: On the basis of it's outside of this witness's
2 area of expertise as we've established numerous times.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic --
4 MR. LUKIC: I asked only because of the next question I have. If
5 the witness noticed when he was investigating the site any bullet-holes
6 on the walls of these buildings.
7 JUDGE ORIE: What is now the question?
8 MR. LUKIC:
9 Q. Well, sir, did you notice bullet-holes on those walls of these
10 buildings when you investigated this site?
11 A. I don't recall seeing any. I'm not saying there weren't any, but
12 I was focussed on filming the shelling location, not looking for
14 Q. Thank you.
15 MR. LUKIC: It's a break time, actually. I was just warned --
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could you tell us how much time you would
18 still need after the break, Mr. Lukic.
19 MR. LUKIC: Half an hour, 45 minutes.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Well, let's then really try to -- to finish in half
21 an hour, 45 minutes, and try to be as organised as possible.
22 Could the witness be escorted out of the courtroom.
23 [The witness stands down]
24 JUDGE ORIE: We take a break, and we'll resume at quarter
25 past 12.00.
1 --- Recess taken at 11.54 a.m.
2 --- On resuming at 12.20 p.m.
3 JUDGE ORIE: While the witness is brought in, I'd briefly deliver
4 a decision on Witness RM247.
5 The Prosecution this morning withdrew Witness RM247, and the
6 Chamber hereby vacates it's admission decision in relation to all
7 material admitted through the witness. And I briefly refer to it. It is
8 an ICTY statement of the witness dated 26th of November, 2005. It is
9 excerpts of the testimony of the witness, testimony of the witness in the
10 Popovic case and two photographs, each marked by the witness, both
11 photographs depicting the Orahovac school.
12 That's hereby on the record.
13 [The witness takes the stand]
14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Hogan, we'll now continue with the
16 Mr. Lukic.
17 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
18 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Hogan, we'll continue dealing with the
19 soccer match incident at Dobrinja, the G4 incident.
20 Is it correct that you photographed
21 Mr. Ismet Haslic [as interpreted] who, according to his own words, was
22 the referee at that match?
23 A. Yeah, I think his last name was Faslic, but he was the referee,
25 Q. [In English] Maybe I misspoke but I have Faslic here written as
1 well. Thank you.
2 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Let us now look at Exhibit 1D1312,
3 document 1D1312, with the assistance of my colleague, Mr. Ivetic. Go.
4 [In English] We tried to solve the problem over the break with
5 the sound, but obviously we'll have to ask Ms. Stewart to play it from
6 Sanction. It's V000-34971A, and we need from 1 minute, 55 seconds, to
7 2 minutes, 55 seconds.
8 Can we start now, please. I think that's the start -- the
9 starting point. Yes, please.
10 [Video-clip played]
11 "Could you please show me by standing in the spot where one of
12 the posts, goal-posts, was located on the 1st of June, 1993.
13 "Could you now please show me by standing on the spot where the
14 second goal post at this end of the parking lot was located on the
15 1st of June, 1993, to the best of your recollection."
16 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
17 Q. The size of the goal that Mr. Faslic indicated is over 3 metres;
19 A. I -- it would probably be approximately be 3 metres. I don't
20 know if it's over 3 metres. It's a rough guesstimate just based on his
22 MR. LUKIC: Can we ask for this part of the video to be admitted
23 into evidence, please.
24 JUDGE ORIE: It is played from Sanction.
25 Madam Registrar, is there any technical problem in admission?
1 THE REGISTRAR: I will check if on the DVD provided to me is the
2 actual portion. If not, we can replace it but ...
3 JUDGE ORIE: Then we reserve a number for this portion of the
4 video played. The number reserved is ...
5 THE REGISTRAR: D382, Your Honours.
6 JUDGE ORIE: And we'll later hear from Madam Registrar whether
7 the technical problems have been overcome and what exactly are the
8 numbers which are now part of the body of evidence.
9 You may proceed, Mr. Lukic.
10 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.
11 Q. Next video I would like to show you, Mr. Hogan, is 1D1313, and
12 since our system does not work, I would again kindly ask -- oh, this one
13 does not have sound anyways, so we can see it from our screen. The time
14 would be very short, from 2 hours, 8 minute, 20 seconds, to 2 hour,
15 8 minutes, 26 seconds. So only six seconds we'll see from this video.
16 MR. LUKIC: Can we start now, please.
17 [Video-clip played]
18 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
19 Q. Do you recognise the same car park or any other area, because
20 this was shown on BH TV as the incident site? And you will notice that
21 in this still we see a small goal that is not larger -- rather, wider
22 than 1 metre.
23 A. Yes, I recognise this video, and I did notice the -- the goal at
24 that end of the parking lot.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Just for my own clarity when we talk of goal, do
1 we talk of a goal post.
2 THE WITNESS: It's -- the one that I see in this video is
3 more similar to a hockey net or a handball net, Your Honour. It's not a
4 traditional soccer -- soccer goal or net.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: I understand what a goal is. That is a ball going
7 THE WITNESS: Not as a soccer player.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: You're talking of a post, some post of sorts,
9 some pillar, some pole.
10 THE WITNESS: Yes, and the cross bar and the net in behind the
11 post, yes.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Right, okay. Thank you so much.
13 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
14 Q. Did Ismet Faslic show you that there were old cars along the
15 sides of the pitch?
16 A. Yes, he did. He indicated that they were there to sort of mark
17 an out of bounds, or the boundary of the playing -- playing surface.
18 MR. LUKIC: Can we -- we would like to tender this video into the
19 evidence as well.
20 MS. HOCHHAUSER: I just wonder -- unless I missed it, I didn't
21 hear when this video was taken or alleged to have been taken or -- yeah,
22 or where it's from.
23 MR. LUKIC: It's -- it's broadcasted on Bosnian TV in connection
24 with this incident and was allegedly taped on the same day. And it's
25 broadcasted on the main informative show of the Bosnian TV. And we
1 have -- we have ... ERN number received from the Prosecution. It's
3 So we are interested, right now, only in those six seconds.
4 JUDGE ORIE: No objections.
5 MS. HOCHHAUSER: No objection. Thank you.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Document 1D1313 receives number D383,
8 Your Honours.
9 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence.
10 MR. LUKIC: Now I would like to go back to Mr. Hogan's video,
11 1 -- but now it would be different time interval. So we marked it as
13 Q. And we'd like to show you, Mr. Hogan, from 9 minutes and
14 1 second, to 10 minutes and 30 seconds.
15 MR. LUKIC: We need audio here. So if we can see it from
17 Can we start now, please.
18 [Video-clip played]
19 "Could you now please show me by standing on the spot and
20 indicating with your hand the outer limit of the playing field which was
21 lined with wrecked cars, to the best of your recollection, on the
22 1st of June, 1993.
23 "Once again, could you please stand on the -- on the spot and
24 indicate with your hand as you stand on the spot.
25 "I will now draw a line along this plain with yellow spray paint.
1 "Could you now please show me by standing on the spot where, to
2 the best of your ..."
3 MR. LUKIC: We would ask for this video to be entered into
4 evidence, please.
5 MS. HOCHHAUSER: I don't have an objection to the entirety of
6 this -- these questions and answers coming in, but I do wonder why
7 we're -- I guess I object to it be sectioned off like this so we can't
8 hear the entirety of what the witness is being asked to point out.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, any problem in tendering the whole of the
10 section of the video.
11 MR. LUKIC: Not at all.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Then a number will be reserved. The parties will
13 agree on what is needed and then that will be uploaded in the way needed.
14 Madam Registrar, the number?
15 THE REGISTRAR: The number reserved would be D384, Your Honours.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.
17 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour. Thank you.
18 [Interpretation] Let us now see a photograph, which is actually a
19 still from this video-clip. It is an exhibit, D175 MFI, I believe.
20 Q. Mr. Hogan, do you see soccer goals in this photograph that are
21 about 3 metres wide on this upper surface; that is, on the pitch.
22 A. I do see soccer nets, goals, on the upper pitch. I -- I would
23 agree, are approximately 3 metres wide.
24 Q. [In English] Can you just circle them so we can have this in the
1 A. Now I'm --
2 Q. That's one and one is on the left-hand side?
3 A. Yes. I'm just wondering if what I'm looking at is a swing set
4 rather than a soccer goal. But it would be at this end, so ...
5 Q. Thank you.
6 MR. LUKIC: Can we have this marked picture introduced into
7 evidence, please.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The witness marked it, but do you have any
9 recollection on whether there was a goal post there or -- because --
10 THE WITNESS: Your Honour, I don't independently recall, but it
11 would be in the right location and it does appear to be -- some sort of a
12 goal post at the other end, so --
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yeah, but that's conclusion. You say you marked
14 what Mr. Lukic asked you to mark.
15 THE WITNESS: Yes.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Colour is different. Shape seems to be different.
17 But nevertheless -- heighth may also be different. We do not know
18 exactly yet.
19 But is it the position by the Defence, Mr. Lukic, that this
20 second item to the left marked by the witness is similar in form, colour,
21 and, therefore, should be a goal post?
22 MR. LUKIC: It's different colour, definitely. The right one is
23 white and the left one is red and blue.
24 JUDGE ORIE: But it's still your position that it's a goal post,
25 despite that. Is that the position of the Defence?
1 MR. LUKIC: Yes, yes, yes.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Then the witness marked what the Defence
3 claims to be a goal post.
4 Madam Registrar.
5 THE REGISTRAR: Document D175 MFI as marked by the witness
6 receives number D385, Your Honours.
7 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence.
8 Now, D175, Mr. Lukic, was MFI'd at the time because it would be
9 used with another witness. Do you want this to be separately or would
10 you like to vacate D175?
11 MR. LUKIC: We can vacate D175 [overlapping speakers]
12 JUDGE ORIE: D175 is vacated.
13 We had, by the way, a similar thing, I think, with D126. But
14 let's first listen to Madam Registrar.
15 THE REGISTRAR: We have a problem. One marking is gone, so can
16 we ask witness to mark again, please. I apologise.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
18 THE WITNESS: Both locations?
19 JUDGE ORIE: Both locations, the goal post at the right, and the
20 brownish structure, claimed by Defence to be a goal post, to the left.
21 THE WITNESS: [Marks]
22 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, you caught it?
23 It's lost again?
24 Then I suggest the following: We re-instate D175 and we say that
25 the witness, when he marked, which, for technical reasons would not be
1 reserved, he marked a white goal post at the very right end of -- of the
2 pitch, white in colour, and just before a whitish part of the building.
3 Then he further marked to the very left of the photograph, again
4 approximately at the middle of the photograph, a structure which seems to
5 be an iron structure, brownish, and, at the very, very left hand of this
7 Then I think everything is clear. We vacate the last number of
8 the marked photograph, and we'll continue.
9 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Can we zoom out this picture a bit. Perhaps it
10 is a -- blurred because of the zooming in, the left goal. Not possible
11 to zoom out further? Okay. Thank you.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, then the last number we assigned
13 for the marked photograph is now vacated.
14 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
15 JUDGE ORIE: To put everything straight on the record: 1D000705,
16 which was ...
17 [Trial Chamber confers]
18 JUDGE ORIE: 65 ter number or the document ID 1D00705, which was
19 MFI'd on the 5th of February of this year and received number D175, is
20 now admitted into evidence. And the marked version of this same
21 photograph is now -- which received number D385, that number is now
22 vacated, and the marking is read out into the transcript earlier by me
24 [Trial Chamber confers]
25 JUDGE ORIE: By admitted D175, it goes almost without saying that
1 the MFI status is removed.
2 Please proceed.
3 MR. LUKIC: Finally. Thank you.
4 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Hogan, the Trial Chamber did its utmost for
5 us to overcome the technical problems. I just have another question
6 about this.
7 Did you check the pitch above the parking lot in the context of
8 the explosions of mortar shells?
9 A. No, I didn't.
10 Q. I am left with only one more topic. I think we'll deal with --
11 deal with it fast. And it has to do with the humanitarian aid. I'm
12 talking about incident G7.
13 The civilians at the Dobrinja neighbourhood were targeted with a
14 salvo of three mortar shells of 120-millimetre calibre. It isn't said
15 where they exploded exactly. You talked to witness Fata Spahic, who was
16 one of the persons injured in that incident which occurred on the
17 4th of February, 1994. Let us take a brief look at a clip from your
19 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] 1D1312B. We need an interval from
20 your video, V000-3471A, from 1 minute -- I'm sorry, 1 hour, 40 minutes,
21 16 seconds through 1 hour, 41 minutes, 54 seconds.
22 [Video-clip played]
23 "Could you please step to the one side. I'm going to mark this
24 spot with yellow paint with the figure X and a number 2 beside it.
25 "Could you please show me by standing at the spot where, to the
1 best of your recollection, the second shell exploded on the
2 4th of February, 1994."
3 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
4 Q. Mr. Hogan, is it true that in the Karadzic case you said that
5 Fata Spahic was not able to register the point of explosion and the place
6 that she marked as the place of the second explosion is not the place
7 where the shell exploded that day?
8 A. I'm not sure if I said exactly that. But I do agree that this
9 location that she showed in the video is not the actual location where
10 the second shell exploded.
11 Q. Thank you. Very briefly. Let us look at an exhibit that has
12 probably received a D number, but I have it as 65 ter 9999.
13 It's a report. Now I see only one document here, and I meant to
14 ask for page 23 in B/C/S and page 5 in English.
15 THE REGISTRAR: I don't think that there is a B/C/S document.
16 There are only three English documents uploaded.
17 MR. LUKIC: That's the page I need.
18 THE REGISTRAR: Okay. I apologise. It's the mixed English
19 and --
20 MR. LUKIC: So in English, we need page 5. That's it, yes.
21 THE REGISTRAR: We don't have separate English and B/C/S. It's
22 one document in three parts --
23 MR. LUKIC: Okay.
24 THE REGISTRAR: -- uploaded.
25 MR. LUKIC: I accept that. But we see on the screen what we
1 need. We need -- we see the picture, and we see English text if somebody
2 wants to follow what's written under. And in English, it's
3 under number 8245, four last digits.
4 Q. [Interpretation] In this document, we see a red arrow marking on
5 the photograph that one of the shells landed close to this lamp-post and
6 this was confirmed by Witness Sabljica. He confirmed that a shell
7 exploded there.
8 And now -- but, first, please, try to remember this place that is
9 marked as the location of the explosion.
10 Now we would need again your video, V000-3497-1-A. The time is
11 1 hour, 39 minutes, 59 minutes -- seconds, up to 1 hour, 41 minutes,
12 3 seconds.
13 MR. LUKIC: And if we can be assisted by Ms. Stewart again.
14 We can start, please.
15 [Video-clip played]
16 MR. LUKIC: Yeah -- you can stop. I thought -- you can stop.
17 And can we go back and start from the beginning, please. So
18 1 hour, 39 minutes, 59 seconds. Yes. And only to go for four seconds.
19 1 hour, 40 minutes, 3 seconds.
20 [Video-clip played]
21 MR. LUKIC: You can stop. You can stop.
22 Q. [Interpretation] Do you remember that when you were there, you
23 saw a damaged angle in the pavement precisely near the lamp-post?
24 MR. LUKIC: We can go a bit further, if you want. Just a couple
25 of more seconds.
1 [Video-clip played]
2 MR. LUKIC: You can stop.
3 THE WITNESS: Yes, I see that.
4 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. In the course of your investigation, did you note that on that
6 day, three - not two - shells landed here on that day?
7 A. Three in the area. Not on this paved surface that we're looking
8 at, but three in this area, yes.
9 Q. Did you investigate precisely this missing part of the pavement
10 as one of the sites of explosion?
11 A. No. I -- I never concentrated on the actual crater analysis.
12 That was done at the time by the local investigators and by UNPROFOR.
13 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we just see one more
14 photograph. That is 1D -- [In English] Sorry, we would offer this part
15 of video into evidence as well. And it's on that -- the same DVD we
16 handed in -- in -- to the Madam Registrar.
17 MS. HOCHHAUSER: I have the same objection that I had to the
18 previous video where we were getting tiny bits and snips out of it. I
19 just think it's out of context, and, in fairness, the whole video should
20 come in of all of the questions that were asked in her indications.
21 JUDGE ORIE: I again invite the parties to sit together. You are
22 complaining about selections made. Now if there are other parts you deem
23 to be relevant, they could be added, but whether we should look at all of
24 it, if both parties find irrelevance in it is, of course, a different
1 The parties are supposed to sit together and make the final
2 selection of this video for which the following number would be reserved.
3 Madam Registrar.
4 THE REGISTRAR: The reserved number would be D385, Your Honours.
5 JUDGE ORIE: And is -- no. That's just the reserved number.
6 Please proceed.
7 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
8 Q. And I just want to show you one more photograph, and it's 1D1303.
9 [Interpretation] When you were on the spot, this is a photograph
10 that shows the site of the explosion of one of the shells in that
11 incident. Did you investigate it?
12 A. Again, I -- I didn't investigate the actual explosion site, but I
13 did speak to witnesses and -- and was shown this location on video in
15 Q. Did Mrs. Spahic show to you that at this place, at the time of
16 the explosion, there was a door?
17 A. I don't think that was Mrs. Spahic. I think that was a separate
18 witness that -- that told me that there was a door here.
19 Q. Well, one of the witnesses did show you there had been a door
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Did you determine that there was, indeed, a door there?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Mr. Hogan, thank you for answering my questions. This was all on
25 our part today. Thank you.
1 A. You're welcome.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
3 MR. LUKIC: Only I would like to tender this photograph.
4 JUDGE ORIE: The photograph would receive number ...
5 THE REGISTRAR: Document 1D1303 receives number D386,
6 Your Honours.
7 JUDGE ORIE: D386 is admitted into evidence.
8 Before I give you an opportunity to re-examine the witness, could
9 I deal with a matter briefly. And -- but I need a few more seconds to
10 prepare it. My computer is a bit slow. That explains ...
11 Yes. Could I draw the attention of the parties to the following:
12 Could we first briefly have a look at P3, e-court page 9. It's about
13 Scheduled Incident F1. Could I draw the attention of the parties --
14 since apparently the cemetery plays an important role in the dispute
15 between the parties, could I invite the parties now to closely look at
16 where the cemetery is situated; that is, if you look at a street which
17 goes through the letter K of Sirokaca, then continues in a kind of a
18 cross and then continues as Mehmeda Mujezinovica, and that the cemetery
19 is both to the left and to the right of this road.
20 Could I now have a look at D376.
21 It may be clear that on the map used here by the Defence the
22 cemetery, as indicated by a green area with crescents, is different from
23 what we see on the other map. And since the parties apparently want to
24 draw conclusions from what you see of a cemetery, this might be relevant.
25 Therefore, it may also be relevant to know exactly what the outlines were
1 of this cemetery in the early 1990s or when Mr. Hogan took his
2 photographs. And in order to make it not further complicated, if you
3 will look at Google Earth, you'll see that, at this moment, the cemetery
4 even extends beyond what is shown on P3. I draw the attention of the
5 parties to it not to loosely draw conclusions.
6 And I have one final question for you, Mr. Hogan. The famous red
7 dot, is that to the right, as you put it, of the street Zagrici or is it
8 to the left of it?
9 THE WITNESS: It's to the left of it, Your Honour.
10 JUDGE ORIE: It's to the left of it. Then I see it better. And
11 we see it on the F1 location in P3, page 9, as well.
12 I wanted to draw the attention the parties to not only apparently
13 trees grow, but cemeteries grow as well.
14 Ms. Hochhauser, any questions in re-examination?
15 MS. HOCHHAUSER: Yes, Your Honour. Thank you.
16 Can we please see 65 ter 19792 at page 12 on the monitor.
17 Re-examination by Ms. Hochhauser:
18 Q. And, Investigator Hogan, as that is coming up, some questions
19 were asked yesterday beginning at page -- transcript page 17697 which the
20 Defence refuted the accuracy of the reading from way-point 5 on that
21 satellite image that's in evidence as P2380.
22 Now I'm showing you now on the monitor page 12 of
23 65 ter 1972 [sic] and that's a photograph that bears the ERN number
24 06197147. And we see here, I believe you told us earlier it's your car
25 and there's some instruments on the hood of it. Can you tell us, is that
1 a picture -- well, tell us what that is a picture of.
2 A. I believe that's way-point 2, not way-point 5. That's in the --
3 the farm-stead area where we saw the meadow. And ...
4 Q. Sorry, if I could stop you for just one second. And let me just
5 check my number.
6 And I see, actually, according to the index, you're correct, and
7 I've pulled up the wrong picture, so I'm going to move on and come back
8 when I've located the right picture. Let's see ...
9 Can we turn for a moment, please, to the F1 shooting of
10 Anisa Pita and look at D377 on the screen, please. Okay.
11 Now can you tell us looking at this photograph from what vantage
12 point or location this picture was taken. Are you able to orient us?
13 A. Yes. Is this the -- the camera was between the two houses,
14 between the fences of the houses. So it would be approximately, I'd say
15 2 -- 2 to 3 metres south of where young Anisa was standing when she was
16 shot. And the view-point is towards the south-west.
17 Q. And I believe you identified that as the cemetery that we were
18 actually just talking about in prior testimony. From the view-point of
19 where Anisa Pita was located when she was shot, are you able to see this
20 same view or any portion of the cemetery?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Now, have you had the opportunity to go up onto the baba rock
23 area that is the alleged shooting location -- original of fire for this
24 incident, F1?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. And did you make any observations about whether there were any
2 Serb military emplacements dug up on that rock?
3 A. Yes, there were.
4 MS. HOCHHAUSER: So at this point, Your Honours, if I could, I'd
5 like to add to the Prosecution's 65 ter exhibit list a still from a video
6 that has the 65 ter number 22509. We've provisionally assigned the still
7 65 ter 30326, pending Your Honours' approval to have that still added.
8 JUDGE ORIE: No objection against addition to the 65 ter list.
9 Leave is granted.
10 MS. HOCHHAUSER: And if we could see that, please, on the monitor
11 now. That's 65 ter 30326, please.
12 Q. And, Mr. Hogan, if you recognise this, can you tell us, please,
13 what it is.
14 A. Yes, this is the -- a stretch of the Pale road. The rocky -- the
15 highest point of ground that we see, the rocky point and the little hump
16 of rock beside it, is what's known as Baba Stijena, grandmother rock.
17 And towards the camera, that emplacement, is a fortification and a
18 shelter along the Pale road built right along the edge of the guardrail,
19 and just on the other side of this emplacement the ground drops very
20 steeply -- excuse me, steeply down to the city, to the Sirokaca area.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Are we looking east or west with the camera?
22 THE WITNESS: Your Honour, we're looking east.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
24 MS. HOCHHAUSER:
25 Q. And just for clarity, this is -- this was in Serb-held territory
1 during the conflict and specifically at the time when Anisa Pita was
2 shot; is that right?
3 A. Yes.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Just for my orientation, therefore, the city and
5 Sirokaca that is all to the left of this road in this direction.
6 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honour.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, thank you.
8 MS. HOCHHAUSER: I would like to tender this photograph, please.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, the number would be ...
10 THE REGISTRAR: Document 30326 receives number P2429,
11 Your Honours.
12 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence.
13 We are at the time of a break, Ms. Hochhauser. Could you give us
14 an estimate as to how much more time you would need?
15 MS. HOCHHAUSER: Your Honour, I don't think it would be more than
16 ten to 15 minutes.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Ten to 15 minutes. And that will leave sufficient
18 time if there are any further questions.
19 We'll first ask the usher to escort Mr. Hogan out of the
21 [The witness stands down]
22 JUDGE ORIE: We take a break, and we resume at 25 minutes
23 to 2.00.
24 --- Recess taken at 1.16 p.m.
25 --- On resuming at 1.39 p.m.
1 JUDGE ORIE: While the witness is escorted into the courtroom,
2 Mr. Lukic, the -- the -- the photograph which was already marked in
3 another case. I think it was MFI'd under the number D126. It was now
4 further marked by this witness. He marked the cemetery on it.
5 What would you like to do with D126? And also is there any plan
6 to tender part of the testimony which was -- which accompanies the
7 earlier marking on the photographs and about which the witness told us a
8 few things?
9 [The witness takes the stand]
10 JUDGE ORIE: If you'd just think about it.
11 Meanwhile, Ms. Hochhauser, I hope I did not confuse you, but ...
12 MS. HOCHHAUSER: I hope so too, Judge.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
14 MS. HOCHHAUSER: I would like to return to the -- the --
15 JUDGE ORIE: Could Mr. Mladic speak at low volume level.
16 Please proceed.
17 MS. HOCHHAUSER: I'd like to turn back to the question that I
18 started out with on the re-direct examination which was if we could have
19 65 ter 19792 at page 12 again on the monitor.
20 Q. And I had actually drawn up the correct photograph that I wanted
21 to show you, but I misspoke about which way-point the Defence had
22 contested in their cross-examination. And it was indeed way-point 2
23 which you identified in that photograph.
24 So if you could tell us, please, specifically what we're looking
25 at in this photograph.
1 A. Yes. This is the road to that farm-stead in that village
2 Studenkovici. My vehicle. The camera is facing east. On the hood of
3 the car is a map. The satellite image which has been entered into
4 evidence in this trial. The GPS unit, and I believe my mobile phone.
5 Q. Okay. And is that the location where those instruments are and
6 where your car is parked from where you took the -- the GPS reading for
7 way-point 2?
8 A. Well, yes, standing right in front of the bumper of that car,
10 MS. HOCHHAUSER: I would tender this exhibit, although I believe
11 Mr. Lukic and I are supposed to go through these 110 photos and decide
12 which we will agree to tender together, so I supposed that could wait.
13 JUDGE ORIE: This will be one of those.
14 MS. HOCHHAUSER: Yes.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We'll wait for that.
16 [Trial Chamber confers]
17 JUDGE ORIE: I'm just bit lost. Will the series of photos be
18 tendered in one -- under one number or ...
19 MS. HOCHHAUSER: Your Honour, we can do it however the Court
20 would like us to do it. The -- there is a selection of those photographs
21 already in evidence as Exhibit P2382. However, the additional ones that
22 have been used and subsequently in cross-examination and now I don't
23 believe we've tendered individually under the idea that we would tender a
24 second set from the 110 after consultation.
25 JUDGE ORIE: And this would then be among the photographs in the
1 second set.
2 MS. HOCHHAUSER: Yes. And I read it into the record before but
3 for clarity it bears the number ERN 06197147.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for that. Please proceed.
5 MS. HOCHHAUSER: I'd like to turn now to incident F12.
6 Q. And today at temporary transcript pages 20 to 21, Mr. Lukic asked
7 you if you were aware that Mr. van der Weijden objected to your GPS
8 co-ordinates for this incident and read to you from his testimony. Do
9 you recall that line of questioning?
10 A. I do recall that.
11 MS. HOCHHAUSER: If we could please have P1130 on the monitor
12 which is Mr. van der Weijden's report and that's at page -- I'd like
13 page 52 of the English and 64.
14 THE REGISTRAR: Document is under seal.
15 MS. HOCHHAUSER: The document is under seal. This particular
16 page, however, I think can be broadcast. It doesn't have any protected
17 information on it.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: In both languages.
19 MS. HOCHHAUSER: Correct. So it's page 52 of the English and 64
20 of the B/C/S.
21 Q. Now, as that is coming up on to the monitor, Mr. Hogan, I'm going
22 to read to you a portion of Mr. van der Weijden's testimony, a question
23 and answer, about the diagram that we're about to see on that screen, and
24 that testimony is from 19 January 2013 at transcript lines 648 -- at
25 transcript page 6481, beginning at line 24. It says:
1 "Q. So the lay-out the first diagram titled 'lay-out' of the
2 incident site is the blue circle marking the location of the victim.
3 It's slightly more toward where the GPS co-ordinates that you considered
4 based on the mother's interview with Barry Hogan; is that right?
5 "A. The GPS co-ordinates were given to me by the OTP and are the
6 same as the location where the investigator had the interview, so that
7 would -- that is it correct. And that circle is more in that position."
8 And that refers -- that question and answer refers to the
9 first -- to the -- to the diagram on the top of this page, lay-out of the
10 incident site. And can you see the blue circle there indicating the
11 GPS --
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. -- co-ordinates that you had given him?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Now, I would like to draw your attention to the second photo on
16 that page which puts the blue circle indicating the incident site off of
17 the sidewalk and into the zebra crossing. And this is the question,
18 having looked at that: I'm not asking you to tell us your opinion about
19 the correct location of this incident, but are you aware that others who
20 have looked at this incident have considered, based on other evidence,
21 that Mrs. Sokolovic brought you to a spot further onto the sidewalk
22 rather than in the -- as opposed to in the zebra crossing than the
23 incident took place.
24 A. I'm sorry, but I -- is that a question for me?
25 Q. Yeah, I'm just -- I'm just asking you not to tell us your opinion
1 of which one is accurate, but are aware that -- that there is some
2 difference of opinion as to whether Mrs. Sokolovic took you to the right
3 location. But it's not a -- it's not a debate over whether the GPS
4 co-ordinates are correct but whether she brought you to the correct
6 A. Oh I understand now. Yes, I am aware of the debate, and as I
7 explained during my direct examination, sometimes the witnesses were not
8 sure. Or, I did not coach them, I did not practice them, I did not
9 provide their statements to them, I did not give them any photographs or
10 show them any videos.
11 Q. And had -- have you yourself had the opportunity to stand both in
12 the place where Mrs. Sokolovic took you as we saw on the video and also
13 to this -- this place within the zebra crossing that's indicated on the
14 second photograph that we're looking at here, and can you tell us how
15 that affects the line of sight up to the Metalka building?
16 A. Yes, there is a line of sight from both locations. Obviously
17 from the zebra crossing more of the Metalka building is -- is visible
18 from the zebra crossing.
19 MS. HOCHHAUSER: Now, I'm going ask, please, Ms. Stewart to play
20 for us a portion of 65 ter 10275 of which we have assigned the 65 ter
21 number 10275D. It has to be played from Quick Time. And this is the
22 360-degree picture for the incident G4.
23 And that is the -- the 1 June 1993 firing at the soccer game that
24 we were discussing in cross-examination.
25 Q. Is this -- was this 360-degree photograph taken in a similar --
1 with a similar methodology to what you described to us on direct
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And if can you remind us again when you -- the location of the
5 camera corresponded with what?
6 A. In this case, this -- it corresponded with one of the shell
7 impact craters which had been pointed out to us which happened to be
8 underneath this car in the very near foreground and the tripod was set
9 upon the hood of the car.
10 Q. Okay. And if I could ask Ms. Stewart, please, to slowly take us
11 around this photograph, and for you to please narrate to us what it is
12 that we're seeing, and if you need her to stop so you can explain
13 something, just please ask her to do so.
14 A. To start, we're facing back towards the city. So straight ahead
15 is Alipasino Polje and the PTT building area, so we're looking north. As
16 we rotate towards the east, the rising land is Mojmilo hill. And now
17 we're facing almost directly east. And we'll continue to rotate towards
18 the south-east and as land falls just behind the corner of that -- if we
19 could just pause there. Just behind the corner of the apartment building
20 is the front line area, and there's a VRS barracks just down at the
21 bottom of Mojmilo hill, in that area.
22 And if we can continue. Now moving towards the south. And just
23 to the right as we rotate, and if we could stop there. Now we're facing
24 almost due south and that is the location where Mr. Faslic was filmed
25 showing the goal posts from the soccer game.
1 Q. When you say "that is," can you describe more specifically on the
2 photo of the area you're just trying to describe.
3 A. Yes, sorry. The memorial that we can see with a -- what appears
4 to be a white stone marker with a semi-circle of red post a small posts
5 around it at the edge of the parking lot.
6 MS. HOCHHAUSER: If I could ask Ms. Stewart to please zoom in on
7 that area. Just a little to the right. More if it's possible.
8 Q. And what we see here is that the memorial and it looks like it's
9 surrounded by small red objects? I can't tell what they are.
10 A. Yes, that's the memorial to the victims of the shelling incident
11 and that's where we saw Mr. Faslic in the previous video. And I should
12 point out that the location from which this 360 is being shown is what
13 was indicated to us as the second shell crater. The first one is further
14 to the left or towards the east in this 360.
15 Q. And is -- is the location -- the location of the actual memorial
16 does that mark anything specific?
17 A. Just the location of one of the goal posts. If we could zoom out
18 a little bit perhaps. And just to the left a little bit -- I'm sorry, to
19 the -- yes, to the left. And underneath one of these, I'm not sure if
20 it's the white vehicle or the grey vehicle that we're seeing in the
21 middle of the photograph, but the first shell impact crater is underneath
22 one of those vehicles.
23 And -- yes. Okay. If we could continue to the right again and
24 all the way around. We're now looking rotating to the west and the
25 south-west. And if we could just stop there for a minute. I'm just, for
1 my own interest, wondering about that goal post that we marked from the
2 other place and we can see it behind the --
3 Q. I was going to ask -- direct to the same. If we can zoom in,
4 please, on this end of the -- of the photograph showing the -- the sort
5 of -- what we said -- what we distinguished before was the red in colour
6 or brown in colour as opposed to the white.
7 A. And it's right along the left edge of the photograph, behind that
8 light-post, and looks like it's just not in very good shape, that
9 goal post.
10 Q. And would -- do you agree that what we're able to see on this 360
11 if the Chamber were to consider it at some point outside of a courtroom
12 setting and zoom in on this area is also what is depicted and what was
13 discussed in D175? We can see it with a little more clarity on the 360?
14 A. Yes, agree, yes.
15 Q. Just so we see the whole thing, can we please complete the circle
16 and then I'll tender this exhibit.
17 A. And there we can see the white goal-posts at the opposite end
18 that we saw before. And now the -- the view-point is towards the west
19 and we're almost completely around to the north again.
20 And we're back at the starting location.
21 MS. HOCHHAUSER: Your Honours, I would tender this 65 ter 10275D.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, the number would be ...
23 THE REGISTRAR: Document 10275D receives number P2430,
24 Your Honours.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
1 MS. HOCHHAUSER: A DVD will be provided. I hadn't prepared one
2 in advance since it had come up on re-direct.
3 Q. We were -- you were asked -- if I can turn to incident G7 for a
4 moment. And that is February 1994 incident in Dobrinja. And you were
5 asked about a videotape that you prepared with a witness and some
6 testimony that you gave in the Karadzic case about the witness going to
7 the wrong spot.
8 Do you recall that line of question and answer?
9 A. Yes, I do.
10 Q. Can you tell us what, if any, kind of preparations were done with
11 her before going to that site?
12 A. Very few preparations. We made arrangements to meet at the
13 location, and I told her that we did not want her to speak on the video
14 but I told her what questions I would ask. I said, Do not demonstrate
15 them to me now, but here are the questions I will ask you to do -- to
16 demonstrate once we start the video.
17 So there was no rehearsal. There was no preparation, very
19 Q. Do you have any awareness of when the last time she may have been
20 at that site was?
21 A. I don't think that she had gone back there since the shelling
22 incident -- she didn't live in the area. She came from the other side of
23 the Mojmilo hill and she only came there because the -- I'm straying. I
24 don't think that she had been there since the shelling incident.
25 MS. HOCHHAUSER: If we could look for a moment, please, at
1 Exhibit P3, at page 4. And -- in e-court.
2 Q. As it's coming up on the screen, Mr. Hogan, you've been asked a
3 number of questions about various confrontation lines. I'm just going to
4 ask you to take a look at page 4 of Exhibit P3 and tell us whether it
5 corresponds with what you know about the confrontation lines in the
6 Sarajevo area in 1992.
7 A. Yes, in general terms. Of course, in 1992, there were some
8 military actions on Zuc hill, which caused that line to move. But the
9 rest of the city was pretty stable, as far as the front lines were
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: We have no exhibits on the Bench.
12 JUDGE ORIE: There it is.
13 MS. HOCHHAUSER: Okay.
14 Q. That was my -- the only question I wanted to ask about that page.
15 MS. HOCHHAUSER: And, Your Honours, with the exception of
16 tendering Exhibits 2403 and 2404, which were marked for identification
17 pending cross-examination, of which I believe there was none on those two
18 exhibits, my -- my redirect examination is concluded. Thank you.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Let me just see. You said you ... yes.
20 You still want to tender 2403 and 2404.
21 Any objections?
22 No objections.
23 Madam Registrar. Numbers are known. Yes, they were marked for
24 identification. Therefore, P2403 and P2404 are admitted into evidence.
25 Mr. Lukic, any need for re-examination of the witness?
1 MR. LUKIC: I have just one question.
2 [Trial Chamber confers]
3 Further cross-examination by Mr. Lukic:
4 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Hogan, my learned friend asked you about
5 D377, when Anisa Pita was wounded, whether the cemetery was visible or
6 not. You told us that trees were planted after the incident. If it
7 weren't for the trees, would you be able to see the cemetery? Is there
8 any -- anything to block the line of sight toward -- between the injury
9 site and the Muslim cemetery, such as a house or any other structure?
10 MS. HOCHHAUSER: I'm going to object to this question, only in
11 terms of the lack of precision. I think the witness told us, referring
12 to Exhibit D513, that that specific circled tree had been planted. And
13 so I don't think it's a -- it's correct statement.
14 MR. LUKIC: Let's see D377.
15 Q. You were asked based on that picture.
16 JUDGE ORIE: It's -- it's seems that we are now -- I -- did I see
17 you're referring to the other picture taken from the spot where the child
18 was hit?
19 MS. HOCHHAUSER: Well, yes.
20 JUDGE ORIE: With the markings on it. This is the Defence one.
21 MS. HOCHHAUSER: I just am saying that I believe that the
22 testimony referring to trees being planted referred to that other picture
23 which is also a Defence exhibit, 513. And so I just wanted that to be
24 clear, that -- I don't believe that there was talk of trees being planted
25 in regard to this view.
1 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. Are the trees of which you said that were planted subsequently,
3 and I'm referring to photograph D377, are those trees visible here in
4 this photograph?
5 A. I'm not sure. I would have to compare them to the -- this view
6 to the 360-degree photograph that -- that we looked at earlier, which --
7 which can -- which was filmed at the site where the little girl was
9 So I'm not sure if this leafy tree in the -- in the -- on the
10 right-hand side is the same one or not.
11 Q. Do you know what kind of tree it was of which they said to you
12 that it had -- it was planted subsequently?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Do you know when this cemetery that we can see here was set --
15 was laid out?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Thank you.
18 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this is all I had.
19 JUDGE ORIE: No further questions.
20 Then since the Chamber has no further questions for you either,
21 Mr. Hogan, I'd like to thank you very much for appearing in this
22 courtroom and for having answered all the questions that were put to you,
23 put to you by the party, put to you by the Bench, and you are excused.
24 THE WITNESS: Thank you, Your Honours.
25 JUDGE ORIE: You may follow the usher.
1 [The witness withdrew]
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic.
3 MR. LUKIC: Yes, if I may, Your Honour.
4 You asked me at our temporary transcript on page 66, line 11,
5 about D126.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
7 MR. LUKIC: When I opened it, it's something completely
8 different. It is in connection with the school for blind.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I -- I do agree that it's a bit different. I
10 might not have fully understood it. But I thought that it was MFI'd at
11 an earlier stage without any -- but it may well be that it was just the
12 school for the blind photograph. And let me have a look at it so that
13 I'm not ...
14 MR. LUKIC: I think in this picture we only have direction where
15 school of blind is.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Yes, but now it was quite a while ago, I
17 think, that this one was also marked for identification to be tendered at
18 a later stage. And I wondered whether it would be with this witness
19 or ...
20 MR. LUKIC: Obviously not.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Obviously not.
22 [Trial Chamber confers]
23 JUDGE ORIE: I have to go back to the -- I have to go back to the
24 transcript. That must be the transcript of the 11th of January of this
25 year, where the Defence has tendered it at that time, but also said we
1 would not rely on the markings of the locations as we find them here,
2 pending a clarification through another witness.
3 So apparently we thought that it might be through this witness
4 and can even be that you have announced that it would be through this
5 witness, but if not, then we just leave it as it is. This document is
6 MFI'd only.
7 MR. LUKIC: When I said it, I probably meant our expert
8 witnesses, ballistic expert witnesses.
9 JUDGE ORIE: That could be. I don't have a recollection of that.
10 Then this matter being clarified, Mr. Groome.
11 MR. GROOME: Your Honours, can I please deal with a brief matter
12 in private session.
13 JUDGE ORIE: We move into private session.
14 [Private session]
11 Page 17788 redacted. Private session.
3 [Open session]
4 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
6 If there's nothing else to be dealt with, we'll adjourn, and
7 we'll resume not tomorrow, but Thursday, the 3rd of October, at 9.30 in
8 the morning in this same courtroom, I.
9 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.15 p.m.,
10 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 3rd day of
11 October, 2013, at 9.30 a.m.