Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 21677

 1                           Wednesday, 28 May 2014

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.36 a.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning to everyone.

 6             Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.

 8             This is case IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

10             There are no preliminaries.  Therefore, could the witness be

11     escorted into the courtroom.

12                           [Trial Chamber confers]

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Perhaps, Mr. Lukic -- is the witness on its way?

14             Mr. Lukic, yesterday Mr. Gengo marked again D476 which was then

15     admitted anew with a better, visible marking.  Now, the same problems do

16     exist in relation to D474 and D475.  Whether it will be you or whether it

17     would be Mr. Weber who does this exercise is relatively -- I don't mind

18     who of the two takes that action.  But we'd like to have marked maps

19     clearly marked and so perhaps it should be done again.

20                           [The witness takes the stand]

21             MR. WEBER:  Your Honour, if it is okay, I will leave it to

22     Mr. Lukic.  I would have no objection to him approaching that in

23     re-examination, just because I'm not fully familiar with the witness's

24     previous markings.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning, Mr. Gengo.  Before you -- we continue,

Page 21678

 1     I'd like to remind you --

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  I'd like to remind you that you're still bound by

 4     the solemn declaration you have given at the beginning of your testimony

 5     that you'll speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

 6             Mr. Weber will now continue his cross-examination.

 7             Please proceed, Mr. Weber.

 8             MR. WEBER:  Thank you, Your Honours.

 9                           WITNESS:  SLAVKO GENGO [Resumed]

10                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

11                           Cross-examination by Mr. Weber: [Continued]

12        Q.   Good morning again, Mr. Gengo.

13        A.   Good morning.

14        Q.   Yesterday we left off discussing your responsibilities between

15     February 1995 and the end of the war with respect to logistics.  I'd like

16     to pick up on that topic at the beginning of today.

17             During your interview that you had with members of the

18     Karadzic Prosecution team on 16 of October 2012, this reference is at

19     page 6 of that transcript, you were asked:

20             "Were you often involved in getting munitions from the VJ for the

21     VRS? "

22             Your answer was:

23             "As necessary, as they would send me, then I would go."

24             Next question was:

25             "During what period did you perform that function?

Page 21679

 1             Your answer:

 2             "As I stated, since 1995, since February 1995, March, February,

 3     March, maybe March 1995 till the end of the war."

 4             Do you stand by this evidence?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have Exhibit P893.

 7        Q.   Sir, today, I'm just going to go through one document with you

 8     and ask you to assist us with the procedure that was involved with this.

 9             Sir, can you see the document on the screen before you?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   This is a 10 July 1995 request from SRK commander

12     General Dragomir Milosevic for weapons and ammunition.  I would like to

13     direct your attention first to the initials that appear towards the

14     bottom of the page on the left-hand side across from the -- to the left

15     of the signature.  There, the initials, SM --

16        A.   Yes, yes.

17        Q.   The initials SM.  Is it correct that these initials are those of

18     Milivoj Solar?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   What are -- what is the significance of the -- these initials on

21     this document?

22        A.   Milivoj Solar was the chief of technical services in the

23     Sarajevo-Romanija Corps and this was a technical matter.  That's why he

24     drafted this letter and any letter of this kind and signed them.

25        Q.   Is it correct that once Mr. Solar would draft these documents, it

Page 21680

 1     would then be presented to Dragomir Milosevic for his approval and

 2     signature?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4             MR. WEBER:  Now, if we could please go up to the top of the

 5     document.

 6        Q.   This request is addressed to the VRS Main Staff.  Is it correct

 7     that the SRK then directed its request for munitions --

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   Sir, if you could please wait for me to finish my question.  Is

10     it correct that the SRK directed its requests for munitions to the

11     Main Staff for its approval?

12        A.   This is correct.  They couldn't do anything without the

13     Main Staff.  Things had to go along the line of command, and that's how

14     they were approved.

15        Q.   The last full sentence on this document, which, I believe, is

16     down in the English or possibly on the next page.  I believe it's

17     actually on the next page states:

18             "Our authorised representative, Slavko Gengo, will collect the

19     requested approval and personally deliver it to the VJ for further

20     action."

21             Excuse me:  "... deliver it to the responsible organs in the VJ

22     for further action."

23             Is it correct that General Mladic or one of his subordinates in

24     the logistics sector of the Main Staff, such as General Djukic, would

25     approve the request and then you would take it to the VJ?

Page 21681

 1        A.   That's how things were done.  Because of their urgency, those

 2     documents had to be urgently approved and then I had to go to Yugoslavia

 3     with them.

 4        Q.   Who did you take it to in the VJ, in Serbia?

 5        A.   To the logistics base.

 6        Q.   Where was that located?  In Belgrade?

 7        A.   In Belgrade.

 8        Q.   And you would personally report to the General Staff of the

 9     Yugoslav army, the VJ; correct?

10        A.   No, not to the General Staff but to the logistics base.

11             MR. WEBER:  That's all I have for this document.

12        Q.   Mr. Gengo, for the rest of today, I'm just going to hit on a

13     couple of matters that were loose ends from yesterday.

14             MR. WEBER:  If the Prosecution could please have P6537.

15        Q.   And, sir, I'm going to be directing to sub-point 3 when this

16     comes up.  I -- I'm returning to the topic of the documents that followed

17     the Markale shelling, and the -- the possible references in them.  This

18     document was admitted yesterday but I didn't put any questions to you.

19             At this time I'd like to read you -- direct you to a specific

20     part of this document, and read to you your previous question and answer

21     that was asked to you during the Karadzic proceedings.

22             In the Karadzic case, this is at transcript page 29816, after

23     you'd been asked some questions, you were asked the following:

24             "Again, there's no reference to a visit of a Joint Commission;

25     although, it does at paragraph 3 refer to a meeting on events in Sarajevo

Page 21682

 1     which was held in the corps command attended by President Karadzic,

 2     General Gvero, UNPROFOR, and UN representatives."

 3             Your answer was:  "Yes, I can see that."

 4             The next question was:

 5             "So you agree that there's no reference in this document anywhere

 6     to this visit of the Joint Commission that you've given evidence about?"

 7             Your answer was:  "Yes."

 8             Do you stand by that evidence?

 9        A.   Yes.  But I would like to say that I believe --

10        Q.   Sir -- sir, you've answered the question.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, if the witness wants to add something which is

12     directly related to the question, you have an opportunity to do so.  If

13     it's not related to the question, you are invited not to say anything.

14             So please make up your mind.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is related to the question.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  I said "directly related."  If it is, please

17     proceed.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I believe that the commission that

19     visited us, that Gvero knew about that, and he was informed about the

20     entire event by the commission that had visited us.  That's why there's

21     no reference to that commission in this document.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Weber.

23             MR. WEBER:

24        Q.   Is it correct that this is the very first between your previous

25     statements, your previous testimony, every occasion that you've ever

Page 21683

 1     discussed this commission, that you've mentioned that the -- the

 2     possibility of General Gvero knowing about the commission?

 3        A.   I'm sure he knew.

 4        Q.   That wasn't my question, sir.  Is this the first time that you've

 5     every mentioned the possibility of General Gvero knowing about this

 6     commission?

 7        A.   I never mentioned that before.  I'm mentioning it here.  But, in

 8     conversations, I said that that was the case --

 9        Q.   Sir, you've answered my question.

10             MR. WEBER:  The last matter -- and, Your Honours, before going

11     back into that, I apologise for the confusion yesterday.  The incorrect

12     statement was uploaded when I called this out.  It was the Mladic

13     statement and that's my fault.  I'm going go back into that now and --

14     and explore his earlier Karadzic statement now.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Please do so.

16             MR. WEBER:

17        Q.   Sir, is it correct you still have in front of you your Mladic

18     statement that has the big letter M in front of you?

19        A.   Yes.

20             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have page 7 of

21     65 ter 30664.

22        Q.   Now, sir, if you recall, I had referred you to paragraph 31 of

23     your current Mladic statement, and now I'm going to ask you a question

24     about a paragraph from your earlier Karadzic statement.

25             Your Karadzic statement -- excuse me, strike that.

Page 21684

 1             Your Mladic statement is almost verbatim from your Karadzic

 2     statement with a couple of additional paragraphs.

 3             What I'm going to be focussing on is the one sentence that was

 4     not included in your Mladic statement from your Karadzic statement.

 5             I'd like to direct your attention to paragraph 27 of your

 6     Karadzic statement --

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Weber, what we see on the screen now, is that

 8     the Mladic statement --

 9             MR. WEBER:  Thank you very much, Your Honour.

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  -- or the Karadzic statement?

11             MR. WEBER:  Thank you very much, Your Honour.  It is the Karadzic

12     statement.

13        Q.   So, sir, just so there is no confusion, what have you in front of

14     you on the desk is your Mladic statement and what appears on the screen

15     before you is the Karadzic statement, which I'm going to read to you

16     since there's no translation for it.

17             In paragraph 27 of the Karadzic statement, it starts the same.

18     It says:

19             "Occasionally groups of snipers armed with sniper rifles and

20     passive scopes, sniper fire at night would come to the zone of

21     responsibility of the unit opposed of [sic] us.  They would fire against

22     our positions and leave the area."

23             Now in paragraph 27 of your Karadzic statement there 's an

24     additional sentence.  It states:

25             "The Muslim local population regularly protested against their

Page 21685

 1     stays because they knew that the Serbian side's response would follow."

 2             Is this -- do you stand by this additional sentence, first of

 3     all?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   Could you explain to us the reason that you did not include this

 6     sentence in your current Mladic statement?

 7        A.   Well, I did mention that, but this is a shortened version.

 8        Q.   To understand correctly, when you say you did mention that, on

 9     the four occasions that you met with the Mladic Defence, you mentioned

10     this to them.

11        A.   I mentioned all of that.  Since the indictments for

12     General Mladic and President Karadzic are identical, my statements were

13     also identical.

14        Q.   And is it then your evidence that -- well, did the Mladic

15     Defence, then, draft your statement in this case based on what you said?

16        A.   When I met with them, I said what I had to say.  They drafted my

17     statement and sent it to me.  They may have omitted things when they were

18     typing up my statement, but that's up to them.  All I'm saying is that my

19     statement was identical.

20        Q.   And when you reviewed your statement, did you not ask for this

21     additional sentence to be included in this paragraph?

22        A.   No, I did not.  Their version was shortened so I thought, if that

23     was the case, I don't see a problem with that.

24        Q.   Is it correct that you responded to these snipers who would fire

25     and leave the area with mortar fire?

Page 21686

 1        A.   It depended on the area from which they fired.  If they fired

 2     from a forest that allowed us to open only mortar fire, we did that.  If

 3     we could use the 64-millimetre cannon, we used that.  Or 20-millimetre or

 4     12-millimetre.  It all depended on the position from which the sniper

 5     shooter had opened fire and it all depended on our decision as to what

 6     would be the best weapon to neutralise that target.

 7        Q.   Is it correct that Milomir Savcic interviewed you in the Karadzic

 8     case and took your Karadzic statement?

 9        A.   Yes.

10             MR. WEBER:  The Prosecution has no further questions.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Weber.

12             Before I invite the Defence to put further questions to you,

13     it's -- it's a bit -- I'm a bit puzzled in the way in which these

14     statements were created.  If they are in many respects verbatim the same,

15     and, of course, the Chamber doesn't have the other ones but that's what I

16     understand, and I'm looking both to you, Mr. Weber, and to you,

17     Mr. Lukic, that they are to a large extent literally and verbatim the

18     same.

19             Now, you've given that statement in the Karadzic case.  It was

20     put on paper.  Now, if you are newly interviewed for days and days, then

21     I would be a bit surprised that the text that results from those

22     interviews is exactly the same in many respects as the previous one.

23             Did they write that down when you were interviewed by the

24     Mladic Defence, or did they just have the statement before them and went

25     through it together with you?

Page 21687

 1             Could you explain to me how this was done.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They made notes.  They did make

 3     notes.  I answered their questions.  I remember my answers, the previous

 4     ones and the ones that I gave them.  I may have changed things slightly,

 5     but even ten years after today, my answers would still be the same.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  But did they have that old statement before them or

 7     was your memory such that you could verbatim repeat your answers as they

 8     appear in the Karadzic statement?  These are two questions.  The first is

 9     whether they had that statement before them when they interviewed you.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They didn't.  They may have had it

11     among their other paper, but they did not have it on them, there and

12     then.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  So what you saw was them making notes, not

14     visibly --

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  -- looking at or explicitly referring to your

17     Karadzic statement.  And then, on the basis of that, an almost verbatim

18     statement was produced.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't see my previous statement

20     in the Karadzic case with them, when I saw them.  In any case, they just

21     put questions to me in a certain order, in particular, since the

22     indictments seemed to be nearly identical.  And I simply provided my

23     answers.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  That's clear to me.

25             Mr. Mladic, there's no problem in taking your jacket off out of

Page 21688

 1     the courtroom and so not disturbing the -- please be seated.

 2             I have a question for you in relation to --

 3                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Before I put another question to you, I'd first give

 5     an opportunity to Judge Fluegge to ask you any further questions.

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  We still have the statement used in the Karadzic

 7     case on the screen.  If I compare this page with the paragraphs 24 to 28,

 8     I see another difference when I read the statement given in the Mladic

 9     case.

10             Paragraph 29 of the Mladic case starts with:  "The deficit of

11     professional commanding officers ..."

12             It's the same as paragraph 26 in the Karadzic statement.

13             What -- the next paragraph which follows in the Mladic statement

14     is paragraph 30 and it reads at the beginning:  "I was commander of the

15     battalion for 16 months."

16             This is not included in the Karadzic statement.  Do you have any

17     explanation why such an additional paragraph appears in the Mladic

18     statement, in comparison to the Karadzic statement?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They probably asked me.  I provided

20     answers, and they noted them down in that manner.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  I have one follow-up question in this respect as

23     well.

24             They made notes during the interviews.  They prepared a

25     statement.  Now, how and when did you receive that written statement

Page 21689

 1     which you finally signed?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I received it in Sarajevo, in

 3     Lukavica.  I don't remember the date exactly that -- that their team came

 4     and I signed it there and then in their office.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Was there any further discussion about the

 6     statement?  Did you have any -- was it sent to you by mail before you

 7     were invited to sign it?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.  They personally brought it.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  They brought it to their office where you looked at

10     it.  Is that ...

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Then I have a few more questions on a totally

13     different subject.

14             If I did understand your testimony well, you said that your

15     troops at Spicaste Stijena were not closer than 10 metres to the edge and

16     that they were subject to grenades being thrown at them and that they

17     were fired at.  Is that well understood?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.  Our defence at

19     Spicaste Stijena was behind the ridge, the edge of the rock.  Some

20     10 metres away is where my positions were.  The Muslim forces, when they

21     attacked, they -- they would climb up the hill, reach the edge, and used

22     hand-held rocket-launchers, Zoljas and Osas to engage us.  But first they

23     would approach us, they would come close.  They launched such attacks in

24     order to take our positions.  That is what I said.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Now just for me to imagine, I have a -- a cliff,

Page 21690

 1     more or less, because that's what Spicaste Stijena is, if I understand it

 2     well, and they are at 10 metres -- well, let's say, the distance between

 3     me and that door, now they climb up there.  You are here in your

 4     positions.  They take -- they take hand-held rocket-launchers, start

 5     shooting at you.  And what did you do?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, they would fire at the

 7     trenches.  We threw hand grenades.  So we exclusively used hand grenades,

 8     and we also called for mortar support to fire at the foot of

 9     Spicaste Stijena so that they wouldn't be able to spread into a skirmish

10     line to take Spicaste Stijena.  So we would actually engage their troops

11     on the other side of the ridge, of the edge.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, what you described seems to be an attack

13     aiming at taking over control of the ridge of the cliff which is there.

14     How often did that happen?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It happened on several occasions

16     and on one such occasion they even seized three of our trenches.  There

17     were killed soldiers on our side, but the next night we managed to regain

18     those trenches.  On one occasion they also managed to take Mala Tvrdjava

19     at Spicaste Stijena, because it was the shortest route for the Muslim

20     troops to link up with their 3rd Corps in the sector of Ilijas --

21             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  We didn't hear the last

22     location the witness mentioned.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you please repeat the last location you

24     mentioned.  What the interpreters heard was that you said:

25             "... shortest route for the Muslim troops to link up with their

Page 21691

 1     3rd Corps in the sector of Ilijas ..."

 2             And what did you say after "sector of Ilijas"?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Nabozic, it's a plateau where we

 4     had positions.  They also attacked us there constantly from the direction

 5     of the 3rd Corps.  They were trying to link up the 1st and the 3rd Corps

 6     so as to encircle a part of Sarajevo such as Ilidza, Hadzici, Ilijas, and

 7     Rajlovac.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  I just invited you to again mention the location you

 9     mentioned before.

10             Now you said this happened several --

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Ravni Nabozic, that is the name.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  You said this happened on several occasions.  Five

13     times, eight times, three times, that such an attack, an attempt to take

14     over happened?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They managed to take it twice.

16     They did try several other times but failed.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Several other times is another three times,

18     five times?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Three or four times.  They attacked

20     with less intensity, thus failing to take those positions.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, that is then a couple of days during the

22     whole of the conflict where these attempts were made.  On the days where

23     there were no such combat operations in order to gain or to regain, you

24     always -- your men always stayed away 10 metres from the ridge?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

Page 21692

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  You never came any closer?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Where?

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  At Spicaste Stijena.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We did not.  We couldn't because we

 5     were exposed to sniper fire on both our flanks.  They fired at us, the

 6     Muslim forces, that is, and they managed to come quite close because it

 7     was a forested area.  Any coming out on the ridge was very dangerous

 8     because one could be killed.  Only when there was fog or really bad

 9     weather we could do so, but then we couldn't see anything anyway.  We

10     were exposed to so much enemy fire that we simply could not come out onto

11     the ridge or do anything.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  You also told us that one of your soldiers was

13     hit when picking cherries.  Is that well understood?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  That was 100 metres behind

15     the line, behind the trenches.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  So now I do understand that you're so cautious not

17     to come any closer to the ridge but at the same time someone in the

18     middle of a armed conflict goes cherry picking and is shot at, exposes

19     himself to fire from the other side.  I'm trying to imagine that you

20     hardly dare to move for 10 metres and that, at the same time, someone

21     walks around and is hit at close to that same area.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, it was 100 metres

23     behind the lines, where there were houses already.  The settlement.  He

24     was in a courtyard.  People lived there.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  What then did your troops do there, sitting there --

Page 21693

 1     I'm talking about the days when there was no combat operation as

 2     described, which may have happened five or seven or eight times.  What

 3     they were doing there?  Just waiting, doing nothing?  Did they fire at

 4     anything or ...?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.  They stood guard in shifts,

 6     guarding the line.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  And nothing happens.  There was never any fire

 8     exchanged which was not related to such gaining or regaining territory

 9     operations?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If their snipers opened fire, of

11     course, there would be an exchange.  We tried to neutralise them.  When

12     this lad was killed, of course, we had to return fire in order to

13     neutralize that position and respond to fire.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Can you tell me where, and we're talking about that

15     incident, where that sniper position on the opposite side was located.

16     Was it down the ridge or ... where was it from where --

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, to the right.  To the right of

18     my positions.  Towards the repeater station, if you remember the picture

19     from yesterday, the panoramic photograph.  So to the right from

20     Spicaste Stijena towards the repeater station, that is where they had

21     snipers.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Did they have snipers any further down?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They couldn't go down the cliff.

24     They could only go to the left or to the right of Spicaste Stijena.

25     There would be no point at targeting the cliff itself.  They had snipers

Page 21694

 1     on the left and on the right of the cliff.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  This Chamber has received evidence about civilians

 3     being hit at Sedrenik.  In your statement, paragraph 39, you say it was

 4     impossible to fire on Sedrenik with infantry weapons for two reasons.

 5     And I'll focus now on the first one.  Firstly, because of the distance.

 6             Was the distance to Sedrenik an obstacle to fire at anyone

 7     located in Sedrenik?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We discussed sniping.  We didn't

 9     discuss any kind of fire.  We talked about snipers.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Fine.  My question is:  Was the distance --

11     by the way, the statement says "infantry weapons."  I read it to you

12     literally.

13             "There were no trained snipers in my battalion.  It was

14     impossible to fire on Sedrenik with infantry weapons for two reasons ..."

15             So that combines snipers and infantry weapons, although, the

16     distance, the obstacle of the distance is not specifically related to

17     sniping but is put in the context of the use of infantry weapons.

18             Now, could you tell me, snipers or other infantry weapons, was

19     the distance such that you could not hit with an infantry weapon from

20     Spicaste Stijena someone who was located in Sedrenik?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Our snipers could engage at

22     800 metres maximum, in order to hit the target.  Anything beyond that did

23     not guarantee any kind of hit.  It was impossible to reach the target.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Do you say that all of Sedrenik is at a

25     distance of more than 800 metres from Spicaste Stijena?  And for the

Page 21695

 1     record, I said:  "... all of Sedrenik is at a distance of more than 800

 2     metres from Spicaste Stijena."

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not along the entire edge.  The

 4     intersection at Sedrenik is 1350 metres away from Spicaste Stijena as I

 5     specified in the statement.  The intersection.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  That's the reason why I'm asking you whether all of

 7     Sedrenik and not just an intersection, which I do not know which one

 8     you're referring to.  I do not know whether you measured the distance

 9     accurately or not.  But my question is whether all of Sedrenik is at a

10     distance of more than 800 metres from Spicaste Stijena.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not all of it.  In certain parts,

12     they were closer, but there was no one in the houses in those areas.  In

13     any case, the empty houses were mostly Serbian houses and the people had

14     moved out.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  And there were no houses where people were living?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There were some, but I don't know

17     how many exactly.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  So what you said a second ago, "there was no one in

19     the houses in those areas," is incorrect.

20             MR. LUKIC:  I'm sorry, Your Honours --

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In the Serbian houses, sir.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  I read the whole of the answer.

23             "In certain parts, they were closer, but there was no one in the

24     houses in those areas.  In any case, the empty houses were mostly Serbian

25     houses and the people had moved out."

Page 21696

 1             This is -- the beginning of the answer is quite clear.  All

 2     houses were empty.  And then it's further specified in a rather confusing

 3     way.

 4             Why did you say that these houses were empty?  What was the

 5     relevance of that?

 6             MR. LUKIC:  We ask for audio to be checked.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  That's -- of course, if there's any problem

 8     there then, as always, Mr. Lukic, you know that I'm, myself, very much

 9     interested in detecting if there's any translation issue.

10             Now why did you consider it relevant that those houses were

11     empty?  Why did you mention that?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The Serb inhabitants had moved out.

13     I said that the Serbian homes were empty.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I heard what you said.  But why did you refer

15     to the houses being empty?  I didn't ask for it.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't see the point of the

17     question?  It's not clear to me.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  I'll tell you what the point of the question is.  I

19     wondered whether you were explaining to me why it would be of no use

20     anyhow to fire at those houses if there's no one there.  I wondered what

21     came to your mind that you considered it important to tell us that the

22     houses were empty.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I thought -- I had in mind

24     the Serbian people who had moved from there.  I didn't have in mind the

25     Muslim population.  This is what it concerned.  Nothing else.

Page 21697

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  I asked you about the distance between

 2     Spicaste Stijena and houses -- Sedrenik.  I asked Sedrenik.  I did not

 3     even mention houses but ...

 4             And then you said the houses were empty anyhow.  What's the

 5     relevance of that?  Was that that there was no need to fire at them or

 6     what -- what else could be the relevance of bringing this to our

 7     attention?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We never opened fire at civilians.

 9     I don't know why you're asking me this.  To my mind, there's no point to

10     this question.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Let me stop you there.  Whether there's a point to

12     the question is for me to decide.  I didn't --

13             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction.  The witness

14     concluded his answer by saying:  In my mind, it is a provocative

15     question.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  I'm not provoking you; I'm examining you.

17             We started with your answer that it was too far anyhow to fire at

18     Sedrenik with infantry weapons.  I then asked you, after you had

19     explained that the range was not beyond 800 metres, whether all of

20     Sedrenik was away from more than 800 metres.  And then you start

21     explaining that the houses in Sedrenik were empty, and I'm asking myself:

22     What triggered you to bring to my attention that the houses in Sedrenik

23     were empty.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said that the Serbian population

25     had moved out.  The Serbian homes were along the edge.  It didn't concern

Page 21698

 1     anything else.  That was my understanding.  I don't know what yours is.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  And what's the relevance of Serbian houses being

 3     empty?  What's the relevance of that for us?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was important because they could

 5     no longer live there.  They had to retreat to their territory, and that

 6     is the part they were defending.  They were at positions behind their

 7     houses.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  I move on.

 9             Do you agree with me that the distance in itself was not an

10     obstacle to engage parts of Sedrenik with infantry weapons?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was no obstacle but one could

12     not engage precisely.  It is impossible to be precise beyond 800 metres.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  But I think you agreed with me that the distance

14     was, for parts of Sedrenik, less than 800 metres.  So you could be

15     precise in targeting anything that was closer than 800 metres?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not to target just anything, only

17     military targets.  Civilians were not targeted.  You cannot put that

18     under the same topic.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  I didn't talk about civilians.  My question was

20     whether you could target at less than 800 metres with precision with

21     infantry weapons.  I wasn't saying whether you were targeting a -- a

22     house, a cow, a military sniper nest.  I didn't say anything.  Less than

23     800 metres, that's the only thing I said.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not receive interpretation.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Then I'll repeat.  I wasn't referring to targeting

Page 21699

 1     civilians.  I was just asking about hitting a target at a distance less

 2     than 800 metres.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] One can engage.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Do you know whether there were any Muslims still

 5     living in parts of Sedrenik less than 800 metres from Spicaste Stijena?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There probably were, but I did not

 7     check.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Have you any knowledge about shields of whatever

 9     sort being erected in Sedrenik with the obvious purpose of protecting

10     yourself against fire coming from Spicaste Stijena?  Shields from

11     whatever material made.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't recall that.  I don't

13     remember any.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  The Chamber received evidence that that was how

15     people locally protected themselves against incoming fire.  And now I'm

16     talking about civilians.  Does this ring any bell to you?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Please repeat your question.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  I said that we received evidence that people locally

19     protected themselves against being fired at, and I'm talking about

20     civilians.  Any knowledge about such measures taken by the local

21     population that remained?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, possibly, in terms of

23     exchange of gun-fire, of course, there had to be protection so that a

24     stray bullet in combat would not threaten somebody's life.  They were

25     probably trying to protect their own lives because they were close to the

Page 21700

 1     separation line.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  700 metres away, sometimes.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, that happened too because the

 4     lines were nearby.  There was 100 metres between my positions and the

 5     positions of the Army of the Federation.  In exchanging gun-fire, of

 6     course --

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  I'm talking about civilians at a distance of

 8     approximately 8 -- 700 metres from your lines.  I'm not talking about

 9     others.  I was talking about civilians, as I explained clearly to you,

10     erecting shields to protect themselves.  That's something different from

11     what you describe; that is, the combatants protecting themselves.

12             Distance of 700 metres.  Were you aware of that?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Please, I explained it nicely.

14     When there's an exchange of gun-fire, not only sniper fire, machine-gun

15     fire and any other kind of fire, and shooting from hunting guns, I'm

16     talking about exchange of gun-fire.  The population, nobody could stop a

17     bullet, so when there was exchange of gun-fire, people could be hit if

18     they did not protect themselves and if they went out of their houses,

19     especially the side where the fire is coming from.  I mean, if a

20     machine-gun is firing, you cannot -- well, you know what it's like.  It's

21     a front line.  There's an exchange of gun-fire.  People had to protect

22     their homes and the paths that they had to take.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Would you agree with me that you would do that only

24     if it was a frequent occurrence that bullets would come in?  I mean, for

25     a stray bullet once a week or once a month, it would make no sense to ...

Page 21701

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Opening fire was not only once,

 2     whatever.  A cease-fire would go on for a few days and then again, and it

 3     changed all the time.  It wasn't really that way.  There was fighting and

 4     exchanges of gun-fire all the time.  So they could not put up protection

 5     every day and then take it down and then put it up again.  Once

 6     protection was there, it was supposed to be there.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  But I understood your testimony to be that there was

 8     no visibility.  You could not even look down into the valley.  And it was

 9     only to the left and to the right that you were firing at their sniper

10     positions, not down into the valley.  You didn't even have a view on

11     that, you told us, because you were 10 metres away from the ridge.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Oh, please, the front is wider.  We

13     were just talking about Spicaste Stijena.  There's the right side and the

14     left side.  They did not attack only there.  They attacked along the

15     entire front line.  But the main point was to get to Spicaste Stijena.

16     That was easier to access.  When there is an attack, then it's a frontal

17     attack.  It not against one point only.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  So they came right in front of Spicaste Stijena and

19     you were firing in that direction as well?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, please.  When there's an

21     attack, the attack takes place along the entire front line.  Please --

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Could we -- we -- Mr. -- witness --

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- tell me.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  -- we discussed the attacks, over a long period of

25     time, perhaps five, six, or seven days.  I'm talking about the days when

Page 21702

 1     there was no attack.  I'm talking about those days.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There was no firing then.  There

 3     was no shooting then.  There was no need.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  But the Chamber received evidence that people were

 5     hit at the -- those days as well.  And that they protected themselves

 6     against that kind of fire.  If you can't tell us anything about it or if

 7     you do not have another explanation as to the one you gave us, we'll

 8     leave it to that.  But I would want to give you an opportunity to further

 9     explain to us that situation.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, give me a document.  I can't

11     see anything.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  No.  I'm telling you what we received as evidence.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, it doesn't have to be

14     correct.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  The Chamber will further assess whether the evidence

16     is accurate or not.

17                           [Trial Chamber confers]

18             JUDGE ORIE:  We are a little bit beyond the time where we usually

19     take a break, but Judge Fluegge has one further short question for you.

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Some minutes ago you said:

21             "People had to protect their homes and the paths they were --

22     that they had to take."

23             What kind of protection did you see at that time?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, they protected it either with

25     sandbags or fences.  I mean -- I mean, logs, wood.  I cannot say.

Page 21703

 1     Different things.  Whatever they had.  They tried to make do, the people

 2     who stayed behind.

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  That means you were aware of such shields to

 4     protect the local population; correct?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I saw that they had

 6     something.  I mean, that really could be seen.

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  We'll take a break and -- could the witness first be

 9     escorted out of the courtroom.

10                           [The witness stands down]

11             JUDGE ORIE:  And we resume at 11.00.

12                           --- Recess taken at 10.39 a.m.

13                           --- On resuming at 11.00 a.m.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, could you give us an indication as to how

15     much time you would need for the re-examination of the witness?

16             MR. LUKIC:  With maps that he has to mark, probably a bit more

17     than half an hour.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Perhaps we could start already with preparing the

19     maps, to ask Madam Registrar to be on standby to show to the witness

20     what was it --

21             MR. LUKIC:  Yeah.  We need first D474.

22                           [The witness takes the stand]

23             MR. LUKIC:  We will need top part of the city.  North-east,

24     actually.  If we can enlarge that part.

25             Actually, am I given the right to --

Page 21704

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, perhaps the --

 2             MR. LUKIC:  -- continue or you --

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  First we'd like to tell the witness that you'll now

 4     be further examined by Mr. Lukic, Mr. Gengo, and one of the things he

 5     will start with is to seek the markings on the maps you made in another

 6     case, to make it better visible.  So that's a purely technical matter

 7     with which he'll start.

 8                           Re-examination by Mr. Lukic:

 9        Q.   [Interpretation] Good day, once again.

10        A.   Good day.

11        Q.   Before you walked in today, we were instructed by the Court to

12     mark the maps again because, indeed, it is barely legible in e-court.

13             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we zoom in a bit more?  Could

14     you please go right.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  And could the usher already assist the witness.

16             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

17             [In English] I think if we save, Your Honours, if we save this,

18     it's already marked and it's better visible.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  If we all agree on where the line starts.  I

20     see --

21             MR. LUKIC:  Yes --

22             JUDGE ORIE:  -- the line a bit better.

23             Perhaps the witness could -- you marked on this map, Witness, the

24     battalion's line of defence.  Could you perhaps do that again so that

25     it's better visible for us.

Page 21705

 1             THE WITNESS: [Marks]

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar, the map now marked again by the

 3     witness would receive number ...?

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  Number D479, Your Honours.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

 6             Could we then have D475, I take it, Mr. Lukic.

 7             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, please.  So D475, please.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Usually maps take slightly longer to ...

 9                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, could you give instructions as to focus

11     on what part of this map.

12             MR. LUKIC:  Again, the same part probably.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Same part.

14             MR. LUKIC:  Yeah, yeah.  We can stop.

15        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Gengo, on this map as well, you marked the

16     positions of the artillery pieces that belonged to your unit.  Could you

17     please try to find this again on the map and then could you make the

18     lines thicker?

19        A.   I can barely see it.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Is there any position further down?  I can't see

21     that.  But if you take the three now blue dots, if you -- that's one I

22     thought I -- the Chamber had detected as well.

23             It's these four positions, Witness, which you marked, or did we

24     forget one?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

Page 21706

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  Document D475 as marked by the witness receives

 3     number D480, Your Honours.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  D480 is admitted into evidence.

 5             Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.

 6             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 7        Q.   Mr. Gengo, I will start from the end; that is to say, I will

 8     start with today.

 9             I don't know how clear it's been.  You spoke about a few attacks

10     of Muslim forces when they took over your positions and a few attacks

11     when they did not manage to do that.  As for such attacks, would you

12     characterise them as offensives by the Muslim forces?

13        A.   Well, probably, probably these were their offensives, because

14     they had their objective to link up with the other forces.  That is what

15     they had intended all along.  Now, it is well known what their ultimate

16     objective was.

17        Q.   Apart from these offensives, and Judge Orie asked you about this

18     as well, tell us, was fire opened from their positions against your

19     positions?

20        A.   Yes, yes, all the time there were provocations, especially when

21     teams of snipers came, probably from other units.  Snipers that were

22     trained and they came with special instruments, and they opened fire

23     against my positions day and night.

24        Q.   What about your snipers?  Could they fire during the night?

25        A.   No, we did not have the right instruments for that.

Page 21707

 1        Q.   Could you give us an example of when they fired during the night?

 2        A.   Well, I don't remember the exact day -- date, I mean, but I know

 3     that on that day, in the area of Hresa, they killed three people,

 4     Mihajlo Jovicic, Karisik Nedjo, and Cicko [phoen] Maletic.  All three

 5     were hit in the head during the night, pitch-dark.  This was special

 6     ammunition, special snipers, so the victims did not save -- did not stand

 7     a chance.  There was no way of having their lives saved.  They were hit

 8     in the head, in the region of the eye, et cetera.

 9        Q.   At the time, at the time --

10        A.   Yes, go along -- go ahead.

11        Q.   Your units, who had better weapons, the Serb side or the Muslim

12     side?

13        A.   As far as snipers are concerned, they had much better weapons and

14     people who were much better trained because they were equipped probably

15     by the international community and I don't know who else.  They had

16     equipment that was far more precise and stronger than ours.

17        Q.   Now let us leave sniper activity and offensives on the side.  How

18     often was fire opened at your positions at Spicaste Stijena from

19     automatic rifles?

20        A.   It couldn't have been automatic rifles.  That was not possible.

21     It was only snipers, from left and right.

22        Q.   All right.  You said to us that Muslim positions were about

23     100 metres away from you.

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   These empty houses that had been abandoned by the Serbs in

Page 21708

 1     Sedrenik, how far away were they from your positions?  Do you know now?

 2        A.   Well, it depends.  It depends.  In the area of Faletici, they

 3     were nearby.  That was right in front.  And as for Spicaste Stijena, it

 4     was down there below the hill.  I cannot say exactly.  Say, 300,

 5     400 metres away.  From the top of Spicaste Stijena, that is.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber.

 7             MR. WEBER:  Just to interrupt.  I do not believe it's clear on

 8     the transcript what the location was that was just mentioned.  I believe

 9     I heard it, but I didn't -- I don't want to repeat it right now.

10             I'm referring to line 18 of page 31.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, usually if we find such a sign, it means that

12     they'll work on it, and I think the witness -- at least it was -- I heard

13     Faletici.  But that's -- usually if there's such a sign, the transcript

14     will be revised later.

15             Let's proceed.

16             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

17        Q.   Judge Orie asked whether you could precisely target targets that

18     were 700 metres away from your positions, and the snipers, so -- please

19     just wait for my question to finish.

20             From your positions, from your trenches --

21        A.   I don't know what area --

22        Q.   The other side of Spicaste Stijena.

23        A.   No, no.

24        Q.   Could you fire at targets that were 100 metres away on the other

25     side because of the configuration of the ground, the terrain?

Page 21709

 1        A.   I think on the left-hand side Spicaste Stijena.

 2        Q.   No, the other side of Spicaste Stijena.

 3        A.   Well, no.  Left side, right side, there were woods there.  It was

 4     a forest.  Who would you fire at?  I could not see at all.

 5        Q.   You were asked about obstacles and protection of the population

 6     in terms of optical visibility.  In Sedrenik, from Spicaste Stijena,

 7     could you see these protections, these shields?  Not from

 8     Spicaste Stijena but, rather, from your positions.

 9        A.   From our trenches?

10        Q.   Yes.

11        A.   No.

12        Q.   Did you see such protective barriers around Serbian houses?

13        A.   Yes, I did.

14        Q.   From your trenches?

15        A.   Yes, one could see them.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, in that context, could I ask the witness

17     again to -- I'll read one of your previous answers about Serbian or other

18     houses.

19             I asked you:

20             "Have you any knowledge about shields of whatever sort being

21     erected in Sedrenik with the obvious purpose of protecting yourself

22     against fire coming from Spicaste Stijena?  Shields from whatever

23     material made."

24             Your answer was:

25             "I don't recall that.  I don't remember any."

Page 21710

 1             And now, since then, you started explaining first to

 2     Judge Fluegge and now again to Mr. Lukic, that you saw that at Serb

 3     houses.  And I'm a bit puzzled by at one moment saying that, I don't

 4     recall that, I don't remember any, and then to give a -- an explanation,

 5     not once but now even for a second time, what you saw exactly.

 6             Could you clarify why, at one moment, you say you don't know, and

 7     another moment explain in detail what you saw?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] From the trenches on

 9     Spicaste Stijena you can't see anything, but from the left side you could

10     see them.  From other positions you could, but not from the trenches on

11     Spicaste Stijena because you couldn't see anything from the trenches.

12     Ten metres away from the trenches, the visibility stopped.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  My question was not from what you could see from

14     your trenches in Spicaste Stijena.  I asked you:  "Have you any knowledge

15     about shields of whatever sort being erected in Sedrenik ..."  I didn't

16     ask you whether you saw it from the trench, whether you heard about it,

17     nothing of the kind.  You said, no, "I don't recall that.  I don't

18     remember any."

19             You didn't say, I couldn't see it from here, or I heard about it

20     there, or I could see it.  The two answers seem to be in strong

21     contradiction, and I would like to give you an opportunity to explain why

22     I hear answers which I feel are contradicting.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was talking about

24     Spicaste Stijena from which you couldn't see anything.  But you could see

25     things from the side, and you could see it from the reports of my

Page 21711

 1     officers that were on the lines taken up by my unit, and I learned that

 2     from them.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.

 4             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.  May be things will become

 5     clearer if we, once again, look at P3, page 30.  When the document

 6     appears on the screen, I will ask the usher to assist the witness in

 7     drawing Serb positions and other Serb positions, if they can be seen in

 8     the photo.  That is, not only the positions of his units but of other

 9     units as well.  I'm interested to find out whether Sedrenik could be

10     observed from other positions.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber.

12             MR. WEBER:  Your Honour, just so we have some clarity.  If we

13     could use two different colours if they're going to be different types of

14     forces discussed.

15             MR. LUKIC:  Maybe -- yeah.  Do we have a different colour than

16     red?

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, we have blue as you may have sen.

18             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, but is it on?  I don't know ... how do you turn

19     it on.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Could the usher assist the witness and you give

21     instructions, Mr. Lukic, what colour to use --

22             MR. LUKIC:  If it's the other colour already on, that's fine.  We

23     can proceed.  I see they are nodding so it's fine.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't see anything here.

Page 21712

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Now the picture is rather dark.  That's a bit of a

 2     problem.

 3             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can you tilt the screen a little bit?

 4        Q.   Maybe you will see better.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  I tried that with mine and it's not -- it's not

 6     very ...

 7             MR. LUKIC:  Yeah.  But if I'm watching from above, it's much

 8     better.  If you tilt -- can you tilt the screen?  No.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  There's a slight difference.  Perhaps you put the

10     question first and before the witness starts marking we'll find out

11     whether he will be able to make any such marking.

12             MR. LUKIC:  Thanks.

13        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Gengo, look at the photo.  Can you mark Serb

14     positions?  Not only yours, but others as well, on the other side.  Were

15     there any other Serb positions that you can see in this photo?  I'm

16     talking about the time when you were the commander of your unit.

17        A.   Only from Debelo Brdo where an MAP was deployed.  If you had

18     binoculars you could observe things.

19        Q.   Can you see those positions in the photo?

20        A.   No.

21        Q.   Very well, then.  I did my best.  But if you can't, you can't.

22        A.   No, the image is too dark.  I can't do anything.

23        Q.   Forget the photo in front of you.

24             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] It can be removed.

25        Q.   Yesterday the Prosecutor -- the Prosecutor asked you --

Page 21713

 1             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] And I'm going to call up P4610 in

 2     e-court.

 3        Q.   Here, we can see that UNPROFOR representatives detected fire, and

 4     it says here that 70 per cent of -- as you can see in the text, was on

 5     the separation line.

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   And there's a reference to explosions.  And further down, it says

 8     that there was a tense exchange of fire in Ilidza throughout the day.

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   Do you know whether UNPROFOR troops recorded 20-millimetre

11     machine-gun shots and Bofors [Realtime transcript read in error "buffer"]

12     shots as explosions?

13        A.   I suppose so, because every round from a 40-millimetre weapon

14     is -- disperses and looks like an explosion.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber.

16             MR. WEBER:  Objection.  Calls for speculation.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  No.  It's not calling for speculation.  Although the

18     answer seems to be -- to contain some speculation but not because the

19     question is -- the question was whether he knew why this was recorded in

20     the way as they did.

21             If you know, tell us.  But if you have just thoughts about it,

22     then please tell us that you don't know.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Please repeat the question.

24             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   My question was:  Do you know whether UNPROFOR troops recorded

Page 21714

 1     20-millimetre machine-gun shots and Bofors, which is a 40-millimetre

 2     weapon, as explosions?

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you first take us exactly where we read that,

 4     Mr. Lukic.

 5             MR. LUKIC:  We should hear the audio.  Now can I see that it's

 6     not -- I said Bofors; here it says "buffer" --

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Where are we, in what paragraph?

 8             MR. LUKIC:  It's 36th page, 22nd line.  It says --

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Recorded.  But where do I find the recording

10     exactly.  Could you take me -- is that on the document on the screen?

11             MR. LUKIC:  No, no, it's in the transcript.  In the transcript,

12     sorry.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  You said:

14             "Do you know whether UNPROFOR troops recorded 20-millimetre

15     machine-gun shots and buffer shots as explosions?

16             MR. LUKIC:  Yeah, but it wasn't "buffer shots," it's "Bofors."

17     It's type of the gun.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, okay, that now is -- okay.  So whether they did

19     that.  Do you know whether they recorded it as explosions?  Did they or

20     did they not?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They could record shots from

22     40-millimetre Bofors, from 30-millimetre Praga, and from PATs, which were

23     20-millimetre calibre, because their rounds fragmented when they hit

24     their targets.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  No, no.  The first question was whether they did

Page 21715

 1     that, yes or no.  That was the question, Mr. Lukic.

 2             Do you know whether they recorded 20-millimetre machine-gun shots

 3     and Bofors shots as explosions?  Did they record them like that?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There's no 20-millimetre

 5     machine-gun.  Only a cannon can have 20-millimetre calibre.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Then, Mr. Lukic, then you have to reconsider

 7     your question because the witness says that you're asking for something

 8     that doesn't exist.

 9             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   The PAT that you mentioned, or the anti-aircraft 20-millimetre

11     gun, how many rounds can it fire in a minute?

12        A.   600 rounds in a minute, in theory.

13        Q.   So its fire is a burst of fire, like a machine-gun?

14        A.   Yes, a burst of fire.

15        Q.   And what about the Swedish gun, Bofors.  Does it also have a

16     burst of fire?

17        A.   No.  Individual fire not bursts of fire.  It works on the

18     principle of a pistol.  That's how Bofors acts.

19        Q.   However, since you are not sure whether they recorded those shots

20     or not --

21        A.   No, I don't --

22        Q.   I thought maybe somebody from UNPROFOR put you in the picture.

23        A.   No, they didn't.  If they recorded such fire, they could do it

24     based on the explosions resulting from such fire.

25             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I'd like to call up P542 in e-court.

Page 21716

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  And both speakers are invited to make a pause

 2     between question and answer in the next question.

 3             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   This document was issued on the 5th of February, 1994.  We're

 5     talking about a document now.  And this document refers to the fire which

 6     was opened on the day when the incident at Markale took place, the first

 7     incident in Markale.

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   The time of the document is one o'clock, 13 minutes and

10     34 seconds in the morning.

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   Let's look at the second page.  The date is still the same but

13     the time is 09.19.51 a.m.  This time precedes the time on which the

14     incident at Markale is said to have happened; right?

15        A.   Yes.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  One second.  Are you done with the document,

17     Mr. Lukic?

18             MR. LUKIC:  If you have questions, you can take over.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Because we looked at -- this is now the second

20     one you showed.  And let me just have a look.

21             MR. LUKIC:  We can go back to the first one --

22             JUDGE ORIE:  One second.  Perhaps give me ... I'm just trying to

23     find the time which you referred to --

24             MR. LUKIC:  It's on the top right corner, first line.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  First line.  I have on this -- the document which is

Page 21717

 1     now -- yes.

 2             MR. LUKIC:  Mm-hm.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Okay.  Could we now look back at the first

 4     page.  Look ... I'm looking because there's also the 4th of February is

 5     mentioned there as well.  I see both a reference to the 5th and to the

 6     4th, in the evening, and I had no opportunity yet to read the content.

 7     Just trying to understand exactly the gist of what ...

 8             MR. LUKIC:  The reporting obviously was the latest time.  But the

 9     events, you are right, are even from the 4th of February.  Because the

10     update to UNMO Sarajevo was on the 4th of February, 1994.  It says on the

11     document.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Let me just have a look.  You would say both are

13     proceeding the time of the -- of the shell that fell on the Markale, and

14     apparently one is a report which was prepared at the night of the 4th and

15     most likely then sent in the early morning hours of the 5th.  Whereas the

16     other is sent later that same morning but still well before midday.

17             MR. LUKIC:  That's right, Your Honour.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now I -- I'm with you again.  Please proceed.

19                           [Trial Chamber confers]

20             MR. LUKIC:  Mr. Weber was on his feet.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, Mr. Weber.

22             MR. WEBER:  It's okay.  I see that the Chamber was able to work

23     it through.  I just would note that the reporting period which they

24     relate to, I believe, is mentioned in the first line of the text, the

25     time that it correlates to.

Page 21718

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  It takes us sometimes a bit of time to get on

 2     top of matters.

 3             Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.  And, again, the gist of it is to

 4     describe the situation as it was reported before what happened.  Okay.

 5     Thanks.  Please proceed.

 6             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.

 7        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Gengo, with the exception of using snipers,

 8     did your unit use mortars to respond to sniper fire when such a mortar

 9     was in a forested area; and did you also use the 20- or 40-millimetre

10     anti-aircraft guns to respond?

11        A.   Yes.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Is it "yes" to both questions or one of them?

13     There are two questions there.  Mortars and 20- or 40--millimetre guns.

14             MR. LUKIC:  Sorry, Mr. Gengo already explained that if the sniper

15     was in the woods, they would respond with the mortars.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes.  But you're asking two questions in one

17     question, Mr. Lukic, and when the answer is just "yes," we don't know

18     what it's a "yes" to.  So if you can break your questions --

19             MR. LUKIC:  I will.  Thank you.

20        Q.   [Interpretation] When there was a sniper in the woods, you

21     usually tried to neutralise it by using mortars; right?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   If sniper fire came from enemy lines, did you also use the

24     anti-aircraft guns?

25        A.   Yes.  Sometimes they barricaded themselves in abandoned houses,

Page 21719

 1     and then we had to use anti-aircraft guns.  It all depended on where they

 2     were.

 3        Q.   Do you only say that regarding Spicaste Stijena?

 4        A.   No.  The entire area of responsibility of my battalion.  The

 5     sector was some 9 kilometres long along the line.

 6        Q.   Thank you.

 7             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Let's briefly look at P4476 next.

 8        Q.   You were asked about the document yesterday.

 9             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] In the B/C/S, it is page 6, while in

10     the English version page 8.  It is the 26th of January, 1994.  The

11     SRK Command issued this order.

12        Q.   You were asked about the ordered offensive operations.

13        A.   Yes, go ahead.

14             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We need to move to the next page in

15     the English because we will be referring to item 5 that we can see at the

16     bottom of the page in the B/C/S version.  In particular, 5.1.

17        Q.   Yesterday you explained the concept of offensive as opposed to

18     improving one's tactical position.

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   In item 5, it reads:  "Task of units."  And in 5.1, we see the

21     Smbr with --

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   What does it stand for, the 1st Smbr?

24        A.   The 1st Sarajevo Mechanised Brigade.

25             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Could Mr. Lukic wait with

Page 21720

 1     his questions and repeat his current question.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, you're invited to make a pause between

 3     answer and question and could you please repeat your last question.

 4             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   Let's now go through it one by one.  Let me read it out.

 6             5.1:  With main body of forces and with auxiliary forces, the

 7     1st Smbr carries out a decisive defence for the following zone:  To the

 8     right of Kneginjac, and Pavlovac, to the left, the right bank of the

 9     Zeljeznica river, with the following task:  In active defence and

10     cooperation with the 1st Rpbr and the 2nd Slpbr --

11             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Could the witness kindly

12     repeat.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, could I, first of all, invite you to wait a

14     while after Mr. Lukic has put his question to you and only then answer,

15     and could you please repeat your last answer because it was lost.

16             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   You expanded the abbreviations.

18        A.   Yes.  What do you want me to do?

19        Q.   Tell us again what does the 1st Rpbr stand for and the 2nd Slpbr?

20        A.   The 1st Romanija Infantry Brigade and the 2nd Sarajevo

21     Light Infantry Brigade.  These three brigades defended the area specified

22     before in the order.  And it says further down:  Improve the tactical

23     position held by the brigade -- brigade's forces.

24        Q.   So what is the difference between offensive actions and improving

25     position?

Page 21721

 1        A.   An offensive action has its goal to take a location or a town.

 2     Defensive action means defending one's position.  Improving one's

 3     tactical position means that, for example, the enemy dug some trenches

 4     close to our positions and we had to push them back to secure our

 5     positions and move them further away from the area we are defending.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  We are done with this part.  I wanted to ask you

 7     briefly about something else.

 8             The Prosecutor obviously denies that an UNPROFOR commission and

 9     the VRS -- and a VRS commission ever attended this scene.  That is to say

10     that they never visited the positions of your units on the

11     6th of February, 1994.  We saw an order -- actually,

12     General Milovanovic's request that a mixed commission be formed, and you

13     were also shown this document -- the next document which I want to have

14     brought up on the screen.

15             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I still have it under 65 ter number

16     10.000.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  Just for the record, Your Honours, this is

18     Exhibit P6536.

19             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.

20        Q.   [Interpretation] Take a look at the underlined part.

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   And just before that, it says the following:

23             "Since the UNPROFOR Command did not reply to the request of the

24     VRS GS by 1800 hours as we had asked in the request, I telephoned the

25     UNPROFOR command in Kiseljak and was then told by General Ramsey, the

Page 21722

 1     Chief of Staff of the UNPROFOR command for the former BH, that the Muslim

 2     side refused to take part in the establishment and work of a joint

 3     military expert commission."

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   Would you agree that there is a reference made in the document by

 6     the refusal of the Muslim side?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   And that UNPROFOR did not refuse to co-operate.

 9             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Could the witness kindly

10     repeat his answer.

11             MR. LUKIC: [No interpretation]

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Lukic, the witness was invited to repeat the

13     answer because, again and again, you are overlapping, and the answer was

14     not recorded and not interpreted.

15             MR. LUKIC:  My mistake, actually.  Obviously.

16        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Gengo --

17        A.   Yes.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Then I have a question for you, Mr. Gengo.

19             Can you read the last paragraph of that document where it says:

20             "The UNPROFOR command refuses to have the UNPROFOR Chief of Staff

21     and the Chief of Staff of the so-called BH Army visit the crime scene

22     together with the VRS Chief of Staff to ascertain the consequences and

23     circumstances of this tragedy."

24             So we're being told there that UNPROFOR refuses.

25             MR. LUKIC:  Not the UNPROFOR.

Page 21723

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Look at the last --

 2             MR. LUKIC:  The Chief of Staff [overlapping speakers] --

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can see it.  But, please, in the

 4     upper part it says that it was upon the request of the Main Staff of the

 5     VRS command to UNPROFOR to have a joint commission established and so on

 6     and so forth.  However, the Muslim army command refused.  They refused

 7     UNPROFOR's request.  It was rejected based on the Muslim side rejection.

 8     It wasn't that UNPROFOR rejected it first.

 9             We asked them both to participate but the Muslims refused.  They

10     were probably afraid of the truth because it would have been proven that

11     Markale, as many other incidents in Sarajevo, were staged by them.  Just

12     like the case in Vase Miskina Street, and then Markale, then Tuzla, then

13     Sefer Halilovic's apartment.  It was done by the same group.  They were

14     probably waiting for something else.  They staged it in order to prove

15     their point and lay the blame on someone's -- someone else.

16             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   Judge Moloto asked you to comment on the last sentence.  Did you

18     refer to that sentence as well, or did you only refer to the middle part?

19     Apparently it -- we can read that the UNPROFOR Command refuses to have

20     the UNPROFOR Chief of Staff and the Chief of Staff of the so-called

21     BH Army visit the crime scene together with the VRS Chief of Staff to

22     ascertain the consequences and circumstances of this tragedy.

23        A.   Please.  Since the Muslim side refused and did not respond, then

24     UNPROFOR decided to write what they did.  In any case, it was the Muslim

25     side that refused.  They refused UNPROFOR's request to have a joint

Page 21724

 1     commission attend the scene.  So they refused.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, almost all of what is said now we heard

 3     that yesterday as well.  It's -- it's slightly unclear to me what the

 4     issue is.  It is clear from this document and the witness tells us, and I

 5     tend to agree with him, that it's clear from this document that the

 6     BiH Army refused to be part of such a commission.  There is some dispute

 7     about whether the last lines express that UNPROFOR did not want to take

 8     part at all or that they did not want to take part at the level of

 9     Chief of Staff, that is, at least -- seems to be from the language not

10     without ambiguity.  But what now is -- we established all that yesterday,

11     I think it was.  What is the issue especially about this latter part?

12     Because a lot of attention was paid yesterday to whether, on the 6th,

13     such a committee attended the scene.

14             But what now is the issue, again, going through this ambiguity in

15     the text?  What do we have to understand from this repeated -- that since

16     there is no clear refusal on all levels to participate, that from this

17     letter, we cannot conclude that UNPROFOR was not there on the 6th.  Is

18     that what you are seeking to establish?

19             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, Your Honour.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Then it's clear to me.  It was clear to me yesterday

21     as well, but if -- please proceed.

22             MR. LUKIC:  What we also want to draw Your Honours' attention is

23     that there is a document, P538, also shown to the witness yesterday, from

24     which it is clear that UNPROFOR took part in this investigation.  And we

25     know from the record of this case that UNPROFOR did take part in this

Page 21725

 1     investigation.  And ...

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  I need to have another look at P538.  I'll do that.

 3     Please proceed meanwhile.

 4             MR. LUKIC:  We can call on our screens P538.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  No, I can -- if you have any further questions for

 6     the witness, okay; but if not, I'll just look at 538.  I don't need to

 7     have it on the screen because I've got my own screen, Mr. Lukic --

 8             MR. LUKIC:  Okay, but I want that document to follow up.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Fine.  If you have any further questions.

10             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We're interested in item 5.

11        Q.   Mr. Gengo, in item 5, it reads that members of the commission

12     referred to here, meaning that it is not the commission we discussed of

13     the 6th but another UNPROFOR commission --

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber was on his feet.

17             MR. WEBER:  I was just going to -- I believe Mr. Lukic just

18     quickly corrected himself.  I was going to object to the form of the

19     question.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay, if that's --

21             MR. LUKIC:  I haven't finished the question yet.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

23             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   So this commission referred to in this document and this document

25     were offered as evidence, and it does not record the visit of a

Page 21726

 1     commission on the 6th.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber.

 3             MR. WEBER:  I am going to object to the word "commission."  I

 4     don't see where that appears in this document.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, could you please put to the witness

 6     literally the portion you draw his attention to.

 7             MR. LUKIC:  Mm-hm.

 8        Q.   [Interpretation] It says here "the investigation team."  I assume

 9     that there are several members involved, if it's called a team.  In

10     item 5, it says that members of that team arrived in Sarajevo on the 10th

11     of February.

12             Is it clear from this document that this team that is arriving

13     only on the 10th could not have recorded anything that happened on the

14     6th of February?

15        A.   Yes.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. -- what exactly -- team members arrived.  What

17     team are we talking about exactly, Mr. Lukic?  Could you guide me.

18             MR. LUKIC:  In -- in -- in -- under number 3, it says

19     composition -- the composition of the investigation team --

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Of the investigation team, yes, yes.  Okay.

21             MR. LUKIC:  -- is shown in Annex A.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Okay.  Yes.  Please proceed.

23             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.

24        Q.   [Interpretation] And what was put to you was that on page -- just

25     a moment, please.

Page 21727

 1             MR. LUKIC:  [Interpretation] I think it's page 40 in e-court.

 2             [In English] Is it page 40 in English version?  On the screen?

 3     Because I have ERN number, four digits, 4137.  No, we have to see the

 4     ERN number to be able to ...

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Seems to be last four digits 4752.  And we have two

 6     ERN numbers on it.  One at the bottom which is 4132 and the other one is

 7     at the top which is an R number, 4752.

 8             MR. LUKIC:  We have moved forward five pages.  The fifth page

 9     after this one.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Page --

11             MR. LUKIC:  Then 45 obviously.  That's the page we need.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  There at the bottom of the page we find the last

13     four digits, 4137, and at the top, 4757.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Can we have the corresponding page in B/C/S.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  That's not the right one.  There are two

16     translations in e-court in relation to this.

17             MR. LUKIC:  But I can read the English paragraph.  Actually, only

18     the top part of the fourth paragraph, so we don't need a translation.

19     The witness can hear the translation.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Please do.

21             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   I'm going to read this out to you after I tell you what it is.

23             The Prosecution pointed out yesterday that the commission that

24     you spoke about did not go out and this is what this document says.  I

25     quote --

Page 21728

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  The B/C/S is now on the screen.

 2             MR. LUKIC:  Okay.  Mm-hm.

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It is.

 4             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   So it's the last paragraph here in the B/C/S version.  You'll see

 6     it here on the left-hand side.  It says:

 7             "Colonel Cvetkovic then discussed numerous aspects of the

 8     incident in theoretical terms and offered his personal opinion concerning

 9     the validity of events as portrayed by the media.  He had no specific

10     evidence to offer of direct relevance to the investigation."

11             In this way also an effort was made to show that there was no

12     such commission.

13             Now let us look at document ...

14             MR. WEBER:  Is it time for the break?

15             JUDGE ORIE:  It is approximately time for the break, but I

16     wouldn't interrupt Mr. Lukic in the middle of what seems to be a question

17     which is related to several documents.

18             MR. LUKIC:  Yes.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  I would not interrupt you at this very moment.

20             MR. LUKIC:  Five minutes, probably, even less, to finish this.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then that's -- let's finish it.

22             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.

23             [Interpretation] So -- [In English] 65 ter number 18907.

24             [Interpretation] Actually, this is what it says.  Cvetkovic is

25     providing an explanation why -- I mean, it's the paragraph underneath

Page 21729

 1     number 5.  It says:  "Members of the commission" -- so he is calling this

 2     team "the commission."  It says here underneath paragraph number 5:

 3             "Members of the commission asked me as the representative of the

 4     VRS to provide technical details showing that the Serb side had not

 5     fired" --

 6             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  The English page is not

 7     the right page.  It's the next page.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, we have a numbering starting twice.

 9     Perhaps we go to the next page in English and see whether it's the second

10     series number 5 that you were reading from.

11             MR. LUKIC:  Can we --

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Next page, please, in both languages.

13             MR. LUKIC:  No, no, in B/C/S it's correct page.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  That's then a -- well, then could we move further

15     down in B/C/S.  Move to the --

16             MR. LUKIC:  In the English it's in the middle of the page.  You

17     can see it:  "... as a representative of the VRS ..."

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Oh, that's -- yes --

19             MR. LUKIC:  Below the 5, yeah.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  I didn't consider that to be 5.  5 starts for me

21     with the stabilising fin.  Below 5.

22             MR. LUKIC:  Below 5.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Yes.

24             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] This is what it says further on --

25     [In English] The next paragraph in English too.

Page 21730

 1        Q.   [Interpretation] "Because the information on the explosion site

 2     was not available to me (the width and depth of the crater, the position

 3     of the stabilizing fin the direction and angle of descent), I tried to

 4     find out about it in informal conversations."

 5             And then number one says:

 6             "The commission did not determine with certainty the direction

 7     from which the shell was launched."

 8             Number 2:

 9             "On the basis of the position of the stabilising fin, which was

10     removed on the first day, the angle of descent was not determined with

11     precision, which is why the commission could not establish the exact

12     launching distance."

13             He goes on enumerating.

14             Now, at the time, were you aware of this; namely that the Serb

15     side had not been provided with information about the investigation

16     taking place at the time?

17        A.   Yes.

18             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Now I'd just like to tender this

19     document into evidence.

20             MR. WEBER:  No objection.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Before ... Madam Registrar, the number would be?

22             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 18907 receives number D481,

23     Your Honours.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

25             Please proceed.

Page 21731

 1             MR. LUKIC:  And it's the break time.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then we proceed with the break.

 3             How much time would you still need, Mr. Lukic?

 4             MR. LUKIC:  Not -- not much.  A bit more than five minutes

 5     probably.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber, as matters stand now, one minute?

 7             MR. WEBER:  A question.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  One question.  Then let's do that after the break.

 9     And could the next witness then remain stand by so that we could start

10     with the next witness immediately after that.

11             You may follow the usher, Mr. Gengo.

12                           [The witness stands down]

13             JUDGE ORIE:  And we'll resume at 25 minutes past midday.

14                           --- Recess taken at 12.07 p.m.

15                           --- On resuming at 12.29 p.m.

16                           [The witness takes the stand]

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.

18             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honours.  I have no further

19     questions.  Mr. Gengo already answered my questions.  I thought I have

20     for this session, but he answered already.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  That's a reduction of 100 per cent of the time.

22             MR. LUKIC:  Yes.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber, now you have 0.1 question or ...?

24             MR. WEBER:  None.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  None.

Page 21732

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  That's very good.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, then you kept the witness busy.

 3                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, we cannot but follow and have no questions for

 5     the witness either.

 6             Mr. Gengo, this completes your testimony in this court.  I'd like

 7     to thank you very much for having coming the long way to The Hague and

 8     for having answered all the questions that were put to you by the parties

 9     and by the Bench, and I wish you a safe return home again.

10             You may follow the usher.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour, for

12     everything.

13                           [The witness withdrew]

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Is the Defence ready to call its next witness?

15             Mr. Stojanovic, you'll examine the next witness.  No protective

16     measures, 92 ter, Mr. Maletic.

17             Mr. Weber.

18             MR. WEBER:  Your Honours, just consistent with our past

19     discussions, I just want to inform the Chamber that the witness has been

20     admonished pursuant to Rule 90(E) in the past.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, that's on the record.

22             Could the next witness be escorted in the courtroom.

23             Yes, I think we discussed the matter.  We leave it in the hands

24     of the calling party whether or not to inform the witness about his

25     rights under Rule 90(E).

Page 21733

 1                           [Trial Chamber and Legal Officer confer]

 2                           [The witness entered court]

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Good afternoon, Mr. Maletic.  Before you give

 4     evidence, you're invited to make a solemn declaration, the text of which

 5     is handed out to you.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

 7     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

 8                           WITNESS:  DRAGAN MALETIC

 9                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, please be seated, Mr. Maletic.

11             Mr. Maletic, you'll first be examined by Mr. Stojanovic.  You'll

12     find him to your left.  Mr. Stojanovic is counsel for Mr. Mladic.

13             Please proceed, Mr. Stojanovic.

14             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

15                           Examination by Mr. Stojanovic:

16        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Maletic, good afternoon.

17        A.   Good afternoon.

18        Q.   I would kindly ask you to tell the Trial Chamber whether you

19     provided a statement to the Mladic Defence and did you provide it in a

20     written form?

21        A.   Yes.

22             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Now I would like to call up

23     1D01606 in e-court.

24        Q.   Let's look at the first page of the document together.

25     Mr. Maletic, is this your signature, and is this information about you?

Page 21734

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   Thank you.

 3             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] And now let's go to the last

 4     page of the same document.  The statement is eight pages long.

 5        Q.   Mr. Maletic, my question is the same.  Is this a confirmation

 6     that you provided a statement containing eight pages to the

 7     Mladic Defence, and did you sign it on the 10th of May, 2014?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   Thank you.

10             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] And now, Your Honours, I would

11     like to call up 65 ter 1D03341.

12             We made some minor changes and additions to the statement that

13     this witness has provided.  With your leave, I would like to briefly ask

14     the witness the following.

15        Q.   Mr. Maletic, did you talk to me during the preparations for your

16     testimony, and did you sign the addendum to the statement to which you

17     made some minor changes yesterday?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   In paragraph 26 of your original statement, it is stated,

20     inter alia, that the sentence:

21             "There were no residential buildings in that area, save for two

22     residential buildings."

23             Your amendment to that sentence was:  "Except for several smaller

24     apartment buildings."  We're talking about paragraph 26.

25             My question is this:  Why did you change your statement after the

Page 21735

 1     10th of May when you signed it?  Why did you ask us yesterday to replace

 2     the words "two buildings" by the words "several smaller buildings"?

 3        A.   Well, I just happened to pass through that part of the building

 4     and I realised that there were not just two smaller buildings but several

 5     smaller apartment buildings there.  And after that -- or, rather, I

 6     passed through that part of the building after I signed the original

 7     statement and that's why I asked you to make the -- that correction to

 8     the original statement.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  And now in paragraph 32 of your original statement --

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you make a pause, Mr. Stojanovic, between

11     answer and question, and could I invite you also to make a small pause

12     between question and answer.  Otherwise, the interpreters will not be

13     able to interpret the overlapping speakers.

14             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.  We

15     shall do our best.

16        Q.   Witness, in paragraph 32 of your original statement, inter alia,

17     the following sentence has been added:

18             "During a truce in 1994, two children were killed at Soping."

19             Yesterday, in a conversation with me, you wanted me to add the

20     following words:

21             "Two children were killed, namely Milica Lalovic and

22     Natasa Sucur."

23             My question is this:  How come that after the 10th of May, when

24     you signed the original statement, you came by the specific information

25     with regard to the names of the two children that you mentioned in -- in

Page 21736

 1     your original statement?

 2        A.   In a conversation with my colleague who also testified here, I

 3     learned the names of the two children and that's why I wanted you to add

 4     those names to my original statement.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  And now --

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  May I ask for additional clarification.  Could

 7     you give us the name of the person who told us you the names of the two

 8     girls?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  Predrag Trapara.

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

11             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

12        Q.   And, Mr. Maletic, if I were to ask you the same questions today,

13     the same ones that our investigators put to you when you signed the

14     original statement, with the additions that have you mentioned here today

15     and after you have made the -- have taken the solemn declaration, would

16     your answers be the same?  And would your answers constitute the whole

17     truth?

18        A.   Yes.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar, in the expectation that the

20     statement and the additional statement will be tendered, could you

21     provide numbers.

22             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 1D1606 receives number D482.  And

23     document 1D3341 receives number D483, Your Honours.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  D482 and D483 are admitted into evidence.

25             Witness, could you tell us also when exactly you spoke -- and the

Page 21737

 1     question comes from in front of you, when did you exactly speak to -- to

 2     Mr. Trapara?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I believe that it was on the

 4     17th of this month.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  17th.  Was that the day when you had arrived, or the

 6     day after that, or the day after that?  Do you remember why you know it

 7     was the 17th?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] A day after my arrival, I met up

 9     with Predrag Trapara.  We had an informal conversation, and I learned

10     that during that conversation.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  So it's not your personal knowledge.  It's

12     just that he knows the names and you repeat it now?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was aware of their killing but I

14     didn't know their names.  He only told me their names.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I ask you, whenever you say something in this

16     court which is not your personal knowledge but what you heard from

17     others, would you always clearly indicate what stems from your own

18     memory, your own observation, and what stems from what you were told.

19     Because adding the names here, it's not clear to us that you got it from

20     someone else, and we always would like to know what you know by yourself

21     and what others have told you.

22             Please proceed, Mr. Stojanovic.

23             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

24             And now I would like to tender the following documents pursuant

25     to 65 ter, and they all accompany the witness's statement.

Page 21738

 1             The first one is 65 ter 1D02005.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

 3             But Mr. Weber has not jumped up yet.  He now has.

 4             MR. WEBER:  I was going to wait until Mr. Stojanovic says all of

 5     them and then I do have an objection on one and I believe one has already

 6     been admitted.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Mr. Stojanovic, if you would just proceed

 8     with all the numbers until Mr. Weber jumps up.

 9             MR. WEBER:  Well, our objection would be on the first one.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  On the first one.

11             MR. WEBER:  It would be on 1D02005.  It's on the basis of

12     relevance.  We see that this is a newspaper article dated 8 April 2010.

13     It's the Prosecution's position that this document has little probative

14     value to this Chamber based on its date and remoteness to the events, and

15     it is very briefly commented upon if -- if barely at all by the witness

16     in the statement.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, I also noticed, and in the statement

18     the witness just tells him -- tells you that he was shown a document.  He

19     doesn't say anything about the document.  That's the newspaper article, I

20     take it, that's ... relevance?

21             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the witness

22     mentions that in paragraph 5 of his statement, and he says that he

23     learned of that crime in the media, and that like most of the population

24     of Sarajevo, he learned about that as something that preceded the

25     beginning of war and war conflicts in Sarajevo.

Page 21739

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, I hope that we will not have to hear

 2     witnesses telling us what they read in the media.  But, at the same time,

 3     Mr. -- is there any dispute about the issue that policeman Pero Petrovic

 4     was killed at his workplace in the Novo Sarajevo police station?

 5             MR. WEBER:  The Prosecution is aware of his death and the date of

 6     it.  We dispute the account that's given in --

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  The account being?

 8             MR. WEBER:  Well, this -- I believe this article for pages

 9     discusses the event and how it happened.  So do not believe this witness

10     has the foundation to be talking about this.  It's just the --

11     [Microphone not activated].

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, Mr. Stojanovic told us that the witness

13     learned about it from the media.  He therefore, I take it, cannot confirm

14     any details about -- apart from what he read in the media, which may not

15     be the right source.

16             At the same time, you may have heard that the Prosecution does

17     not disagree that Pero Petrovic, the name is accurate.  The place where

18     he was killed, the Sarajevo police station, is that in dispute?

19             MR. WEBER:  I'd have to specifically check, but we do have some

20     information on it and when it happened.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Let me just -- do you -- under those circumstances

22     do you still insist on tendering, Mr. Stojanovic?  Then, of course, the

23     Chamber will further consider and decide.  Or would you like to wait

24     until Mr. Weber has verified name, time, and the place where the person

25     was killed?

Page 21740

 1             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] That's correct, Your Honour.  I

 2     would like Mr. Weber to check if any of this is incorrect, and maybe we

 3     will have stipulations about these events.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  And "any of this," you mean what the witness says

 5     about it.  Because you have heard already that the Prosecution disagrees

 6     with further details as presented in the exhibit or in the article.

 7             Okay.  We'll wait.  We leave it for the time being.  We'll not

 8     yet mark it for identification.

 9             Mr. Weber, we would like to hear from you, or from you, together

10     with Mr. Stojanovic, as soon as possible.

11             Next one, Mr. Stojanovic.

12             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I would like to tender the rest

13     of the documents, by your leave, as it seems to me the best way to save

14     time.

15             I tender the following 65 ter documents:  1D02092, 1D02093,

16     1D02094, 1D02095, and 1D02029.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  No objections?

18             MR. WEBER:  No objections.  But the Prosecution notes that its

19     records indicate that 1D02029 has already been admitted as Prosecution

20     Exhibit P4445.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Which means that what now remains are the others

22     which are all maps marked by the witness.

23             Madam Registrar.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 1D2092 receives number D484.

25             Document 1D2093 receives number D485.

Page 21741

 1             Document 1D2094 receives number D486.

 2             And document 1D2095 receives number D487, Your Honours.

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Madam Registrar, could you repeat the first

 4     1D number.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 1D2092 receives number D484.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now sometimes --

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  -- the 0 between the 1D and the following number is

 9     not always.  But D484 up to and including D487 are admitted -- 6.  Let me

10     just check.  No, D487 are admitted into evidence.

11             Please proceed.

12             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.  By your leave,

13     Your Honour, I'd like to read out a summary of Mr. Maletic's statement.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Please do so.

15             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] When the war broke out, the

16     witness lived in Grbavica with his family.  When the

17     1st Romanija Brigade, later to become the 1st Sarajevo Brigade, was

18     established, he was appointed to the position as the commander of the

19     1st Company, 3rd Battalion.  He held that position until late 1992 when

20     he was transferred to the 3rd Battalion command to the position of

21     assistant battalion commander for intelligence affairs.  He stayed in

22     that position until early 1994.

23             During the war, his unit carried out predominantly defensive

24     actions and commanded the view of a small part of town from its

25     positions.  The witness claims that his unit never opened fire,

Page 21742

 1     especially sniper fire, on civilians from the defence sector of his

 2     company.

 3             Throughout the war they were under the orders of the superior

 4     command, forbidding any action aimed at civilians.  They were also

 5     frequently ordered not to open fire at all, thus, sustaining losses which

 6     would have been less had they been able to respond to enemy fire

 7     immediately.

 8             The witness will testify that the ABiH unit which engaged them

 9     had snipers and that they were posted in different civilian buildings.

10     That information originated from different sources, such as interviews

11     with defectors, intelligence, and, in particular, the fact that many

12     civilians were killed deep within the settlements of Grbavica and Vrace.

13             In addition to obtaining information from defectors, he also

14     concluded that the enemy had snipers because there was always individual

15     shooting during lulls.  It always meant that snipers from parts of town

16     under Muslim control were targeting selected targets on the VRS side.

17     The witness will further point out that the enemy did not select targets

18     and that it did not matter to the enemy side whether fighters or

19     civilians would be hit.  It resulted in many civilian inhabitants of

20     Grbavica being killed.

21             That is the summary of the witness's statement.

22             Next, could we have in e-court document P3, page 24.  I would

23     like to get a more precise description of the positions held by the units

24     to which Mr. Maletic belonged -- unit to which Mr. Maletic belonged.

25        Q.   Mr. Maletic, while we are waiting for the document, I wanted to

Page 21743

 1     tell that you are about to see a photograph.  I know, as well as the

 2     Chamber knows, that you previously used a map with far less detail than

 3     we can see on this photograph in order to mark the positions of your

 4     unit.

 5             Given the fact that you describe the positions of your unit in

 6     the statement, kindly use the marker provided by the usher to indicate

 7     the positions of the unit commanded by you as company commander in 1992,

 8     at least to the extent we can see in the photograph.  Please start

 9     with -- on the right-hand side and the first building where we could find

10     your positions.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Marking will be done in blue, Mr. Stojanovic, or

12     what ... oh, yes, I see it started [Overlapping speakers] ...

13             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Precisely, Your Honour.  I think

14     it will be easy to see then.

15        Q.   For the record, sir, please continue drawing the line, describing

16     at the same time what you are doing, and tell us, please, what the first

17     building was where your unit was deployed.

18        A.   This was the building of Invest Banka.

19        Q.   Next?

20        A.   Next we have the student dorm.  And there was another position

21     here between the sky-scraper and the student dorm.

22        Q.   Do stop there for a moment.

23             The witness circled the place he just referred to.  Kindly tell

24     the Court, for the record, what kind of position it was.

25        A.   It was a dugout with approaching trenches in order to have a

Page 21744

 1     position just between the sky-scraper and the student dorm.

 2             MR. WEBER:  I'm sorry to get up, Your Honours -- -

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber.

 4             MR. WEBER:  -- but I'm a bit confused as what we're -- which

 5     marking, because the witness has made many, are we referring to.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  You were invited to mark the positions.  What you

 7     are apparently doing is to mark a line or is -- could you explain exactly

 8     what the line represents?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very well.  The building of

10     Invest Banka is 1-3.  Then the student dorm.  Then the position between

11     the student dorm and --

12             JUDGE ORIE:  One second.  1-3.  What is 1-3?  I don't see any 1-3

13     on my screen.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The building of Invest Banka.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  What I see in this picture is that some numbers

16     appear and that one building is marked in red 10; whereas the -- the

17     10 in the white box refers to former Invest Banka building.

18             When referred to 1-3, did you refer to the building which is

19     marked in red number 10?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I apologise Your Honour.  I had

21     mind the three Metalka buildings.  The building of Invest Banka was not

22     held by my unit.  It was held by the battalion next to us, so I misspoke.

23     I had the Metalka buildings in mind, 1, 2, and 3.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now what we see on this picture is a red

25     square marking with number 8 on it, and that comprises a large

Page 21745

 1     construction.  And we read in the white box that that is the Metalka

 2     building.

 3             First of all, would that Metalka building, would that be a

 4     building in which you had any position?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  And now I understand that to the right of that,

 7     where you seem to have marked a 1, and to the left of that, where you

 8     seem to have marked a 3, are these three, what you call, together, the

 9     Metalka buildings?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, yes, that's what we called

11     them.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, did you have positions in all three of

13     these buildings or ...

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  So the blue line which is at the side of the

16     buildings we are looking at is not demonstrating where you were and where

17     the others were because the buildings are still buildings - the Metalka

18     buildings - which -- in which you had positions?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  So the blue line effectively is at the other side of

21     these buildings then separating you from the other warring party?

22             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you for your assistance,

23     Your Honour --

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, first -- no, no, I'm still seeking

25     confirmation.

Page 21746

 1             So is that correctly understood, that the line of separation

 2     would be at the other side of the buildings, which, of course, we cannot

 3     see?  Or was it a river there?  Or what was the line of separation?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The river was behind the building

 5     and it was the separation line.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Now, apart from the three buildings where you

 7     wrote 1, 2, and 3 in blue, there's also a building with a red roof.

 8             Could you tell us what that building is and whether you had any

 9     positions in there?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that is the student dorm.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  That's the student dorm.  And you had positions in

12     that student dorm as well?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Now you marked a dot to the left of the students'

15     dorm at the corner of what is another red square marking.  That blue dot

16     depicts what exactly?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Between the sky-scraper and the

18     student dorm, around the middle, there was a trench that was dug in a

19     meadow.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  All the markings are clear to me now.

21             Please proceed, Mr. Stojanovic.

22             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you for your assistance.

23        Q.   Mr. Maletic, let us continue, please.

24             The next square contains four tall buildings.  Can you use the

25     blue marker to show whether your company line defence extended between

Page 21747

 1     those buildings.

 2        A.   Our trenches were at the foot of the high-rises.

 3        Q.   Thank you.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  At the foot facing the river or was it at the foot

 5     facing the Grbavica area, at least the ...

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At the foot turned towards the

 7     river, towards the other side.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  So that's seen from here behind the

 9     building.  Behind the buildings.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Stojanovic.

12             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   Please tell the Court, in order have a full picture of the

14     situation, and perhaps use approximately dozens or hundreds of metres to

15     tell us how far your lines stretched down the Miljacka river beyond the

16     edge of this photograph.  How far did the positions of your company

17     reach?

18        A.   Several hundred metres, to the next bridge called Bratsvo i

19     Jedinstvo.

20        Q.   Thank you.  Kindly place today's date on the photograph, which is

21     the 28th of May, and sign it.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  There's no need -- it can be tendered as such.

23             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.  I seek

24     to tender this photograph into evidence.  I have additional two questions

25     with regard to it, hence, do leave it on the screen for the time

Page 21748

 1     building.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar, the number.

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  Page --

 4             MR. WEBER:  No objections, Your Honour.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  Page 24 of Exhibit P3 as marked by the witness

 6     receives number D488, Your Honours.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  D488 is admitted.

 8             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 9        Q.   Mr. Maletic, let me ask you this:  When you said that in the

10     buildings in front of you, which you marked with the numbers 1, 2, and 3

11     in blue, you had positions, were those positions at some of the higher

12     floors of the buildings?

13        A.   No.  Those positions were at the foot of the buildings.

14        Q.   When you explained your deployment concerning the building in the

15     red square bearing the number 9, did you, as the company, have any

16     positions on one of the upper floors of that building?

17        A.   No.

18        Q.   Why did you have positions only on the ground floor of those

19     buildings?

20        A.   For personal safety.  We were safer at the -- the bottom of those

21     buildings.

22        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Maletic.  We -- I have no further questions for

23     you, and I would kindly ask you to provide answers as best you can to the

24     Prosecutor as well.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Stojanovic.

Page 21749

 1             Mr. Weber, are you ready to cross-examine the witness?

 2             Mr. Maletic, you'll now be cross-examined by Mr. Weber.

 3     Mr. Weber is counsel for the Prosecution, and you'll find him to your

 4     right.

 5             MR. WEBER:  Thank you, Your Honours.

 6                           Cross-examination by Mr. Weber:

 7        Q.   Good afternoon, Mr. Maletic.

 8        A.   Good afternoon.

 9        Q.   I'm going to pick up with the area that we were just discussing

10     with respect to your zone of responsibility.

11             In paragraph 8 of your statement, you describe the zone of

12     responsibility of the 3rd Battalion of the 1st Romanija Brigade.  And I'm

13     sorry to stop my question here, but, sir, do you have some documents in

14     front of you at the witness stand?

15        A.   Yes, I have this statement that I gave.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Is it -- if it is a clean copy, I do not know if you

17     have any problems, Mr. Weber.

18             MR. WEBER:  I have not seen it.  If I could just --

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Is it a clean copy of your statement?  Could you --

20     could the usher just have a look at it and give it to Mr. Weber so that

21     he can see whether it's with or without annotations.

22             MR. WEBER:  I do see there's some markings on it.  If I can check

23     it over the next break and then --

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, then we rather ask the witness:  Whatever you

25     need from your statement, if you have to read it yourself, that it can

Page 21750

 1     always be shown on the screen, if need be, and there is a lot of

 2     handwriting on it.  Would you please put it away and not consult it.

 3             MR. WEBER:  Judge, we do have a clean copy --

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Well --

 5             MR. WEBER:  -- if he needs it.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  -- usually we don't -- if there's any need we can

 7     still give it to the witness at a later stage.

 8             Could the original be returned to the witness or ...

 9             MR. WEBER:  If we could -- I mean, he had it on -- I believe that

10     the witness had in front of him during direct examination.  If we could

11     just check with the [overlapping speakers] ...

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Maletic, do you have any problems in the

13     Prosecution looking at your notes written on this?  On your statement?

14     What are the notes about?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No problem.  You can take a look.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then Mr. Weber will return it to you after the

17     break.

18             Please proceed, Mr. Weber.

19             MR. WEBER:

20        Q.   Mr. Maletic, I'm going start again.

21             In paragraph 8 of your statement, you describe the zone of

22     responsibility of the 3rd Battalion of the 1st Romanija Brigade stating

23     that it stretched from the Vrbanja bridge to the Slavisa Vajner Cica

24     barracks.

25             Is it also correct that your brigade's zone of responsibility

Page 21751

 1     extended to the east and included the Jewish cemetery?

 2        A.   I'm sorry, could you please repeat that for me?  Did you say

 3     battalion or brigade?

 4        Q.   I'm referring to the brigade.  Is it correct that your brigade's

 5     zone of responsibility extended to the east and included the Jewish

 6     cemetery?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 30697.

 9        Q.   Sir, this is a 1st Romanija Brigade Command report dated

10     23 June 1992 from, at that time, brigade commander, Colonel

11     Dragomir Milosevic.  The topic is the disposition of the brigade.  If you

12     could please just review the entire report - it's rather short - and let

13     us know when you've done that.

14        A.   I've read it.

15        Q.   Thank you, sir.  Is it correct that this report describes the

16     zone of responsibility for the 1st Romanija Brigade and its battalions as

17     they existed in 1992?

18        A.   I am not aware of the positions of the brigade, where they were.

19     I talked about the position of my company, in 1992, that was from the

20     bridge to the bridge.  And then the position of my battalion that was

21     from Vrbanja Most, the bridge, to the Slavisa Vajner Cica barracks.

22        Q.   Okay.  What battalion -- what battalions neighboured your

23     battalions on each side?

24        A.   We're the 2nd Battalion of the Sarajevo Brigade [as interpreted].

25     Next to us was the 1st Battalion, on the right.  And to the left, there

Page 21752

 1     were parts of, I don't know...

 2        Q.   I'm sorry, sir, I don't know if you finished your answer there or

 3     not.

 4        A.   Yes, yes, I just don't remember who was on our left.  I just know

 5     that our line was up to the Slavisa Vajner Cica barracks.

 6        Q.   Okay.  Does this document accurately describe the positions of

 7     your own battalion, the 3rd Battalion, at the time?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   Okay.  Is it correct that as a company commander you were

10     responsible for knowing the positions of all the personnel under your

11     command?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   Isn't it also correct, as a company commander, it was your -- it

14     was your job to know the positions of any forces that could support your

15     company in your immediate vicinity?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   Is it correct that your battalion remained part of the

18     1st Romanija Brigade until early 1993?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   The headquarters of your company, the 1st Company, was in the

21     former Drvorijeka shop in Grbavica; is that correct?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   Is correct that your battalion's headquarters was located on

24     Banja Luka Street?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 21753

 1        Q.   During the war, the Pere Zdere - and I'm sorry for mispronouncing

 2     the name of the location - Pere Zdere restaurant was not far from your

 3     battalion's headquarters.  Is that correct?

 4        A.   I did not understand the name.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Perhaps you spell it, Mr. Weber --

 6             MR. WEBER:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  -- so not as to rely on your pronunciation.

 8             MR. WEBER:  Thank you.

 9        Q.   The name I'm trying to pronounce is Pere, P-e-r-e, second word

10     Zdere, Z-d-e-r-e.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  We're waiting for it to appear on the transcript so

12     that the witness can look at it as well.

13             You see it's written three lines from the bottom, now four lines,

14     on the transcript:  Pere Zdere.  My pronunciation is most likely as bad

15     as --

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand.  I understand.

17     Pere Zdere.  There was no command close to that.

18             MR. WEBER:

19        Q.   Okay.  How far was the battalion command from that restaurant?

20        A.   Over 500 metres.

21        Q.   In 1993, is it correct that your battalion was made part of the

22     1st Sarajevo Brigade as the Smbr's 2nd Battalion?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Is it correct that your battalion's zone of responsibility did

25     not change after it was made part of the 1st Smbr?

Page 21754

 1        A.   Yes.

 2             MR. WEBER:  Your Honour, the Prosecution would tender this

 3     document into evidence, 65 ter 30697.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 30697 receives number P6538,

 6     Your Honours.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  P6538 is admitted.

 8             Mr. Weber, I intend to take a break in two or three minutes from

 9     now.  If you have a few questions, please put them to the witness; if you

10     would need more time for your next subject --

11             MR. WEBER:  I can go through a number of quick things and if

12     Your Honours want to stop me whenever you would like, it's fine to do

13     that.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I'll do it in three minutes from now.

15             MR. WEBER:  Okay.  Thank you, Your Honour.

16        Q.   Mr. Maletic, until late 1992, is it correct your battalion

17     commander was Radomir Stojanovic?

18        A.   First it was Brane Plakalovic, and after him Radomir Stojanovic.

19     Brane, or Branislav, Plakalovic and then Radomir Stojanovic.

20        Q.   Is it correct that Mr. Stojanovic remained your battalion

21     commander until late 1992?

22        A.   Aleksandar Petrovic became battalion commander in late 1992 or

23     beginning of 1993, and Radomir Stojanovic was killed.

24        Q.   Okay.  So just so we're clear, then, Aleksandar Petrovic

25     succeeded Radomir Stojanovic as your battalion commander sometime toward

Page 21755

 1     the end of 1992; is that correct?

 2        A.   Yes.  But I don't know the exact dates of that.

 3        Q.   No problem, sir.  Is it correct that your battalion had two

 4     deputy commanders; those individuals were Milan Hrvacevic and

 5     Dragan Siljak, with a K, Siljak?

 6        A.   Yes, for a time.  And then Hrvacevic was moved to the brigade

 7     command.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  We'll take a break now.

 9             Witness, we'd like to see you back in 20 minutes.  You may follow

10     the usher.

11                           [The witness stands down]

12             JUDGE ORIE:  We will resume at quarter to 2.00.

13                           --- Recess taken at 1.25 p.m.

14                           --- On resuming at 1.47 p.m.

15                           [The witness takes the stand]

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber, you may proceed.

17             MR. WEBER:  Thank you, Your Honours.

18        Q.   Is it correct that Zeljko Mitrovic was in charge of the work

19     detail of your battalion?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Until the end of 1993, is it correct that you were part of the

22     command of the 2nd Battalion of the 1st Smbr?

23        A.   That would be it roughly.

24        Q.   Okay.  Once you became an assistant commander for security and

25     intelligence, is it correct that you attended morning meetings with the

Page 21756

 1     battalion commander and the deputy commanders?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   Is it correct that these meetings would take place at the

 4     battalion headquarters?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   Zeljko Mitrovic would attend these meetings; is that right?

 7        A.   Well, I cannot remember.

 8        Q.   Okay.  Can you remember occasions where Mr. Mitrovic would attend

 9     the meetings?

10        A.   Well, possibly.  Possibly.

11        Q.   Okay.  Let's try another individual.  Is it correct that

12     Nebojsa Ivkovic also attended the morning meetings of the battalion

13     command?

14        A.   I think that he came from time to time to attend meetings.

15        Q.   Okay.  How often would he attend the meetings?

16        A.   I don't know.

17        Q.   Is it correct that during these meetings, you would discuss the

18     personnel in the battalion and their deployments?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   In your own role as assistant commander for intelligence and

21     security, is it correct that you continued to operate from the battalion

22     headquarters on Banja Luka Street?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   When you became the assistant commander for security and

25     intelligence, is it correct that your function required you to have

Page 21757

 1     detailed information on the security situation throughout the zone of

 2     responsibility of the battalion?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   When you were an assistant commander, is it correct that the

 5     military police in your battalion were your responsibility, or they were

 6     under your authority?

 7        A.   No.  We did not have any military police.

 8        Q.   Okay.  As part of your role as a commander for security and

 9     intelligence, is it correct that you possessed the authority and you also

10     had the obligation to detain or arrest any soldier suspected of

11     committing a crime?

12        A.   Yes.

13             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution, please, have P06517, currently

14     marked for identification.

15        Q.   Sir, coming up before you is a list of names which you were

16     previously shown during the Karadzic proceedings.  During that case, at

17     page 30847, you confirmed that this is a list of personnel at the

18     2nd Battalion Command on this first page; is that correct?

19        A.   Yes, I remember some of the names.

20        Q.   Okay.  Just so we're clear, is it correct that your commander's

21     name appears at line number 19?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   And your deputy commander, their names appear at numbers 8 and

24     number 30; is that correct?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 21758

 1        Q.   Is it correct your name and signature appears at number 14?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   Could you please tell us what the purpose of this list is.

 4        A.   I don't know.  I don't remember.  Really.

 5        Q.   Do you recall any occasions that you signed lists while you were

 6     at the battalion command?

 7        A.   Well, I see my signature here, but I really don't remember the

 8     purpose of this list.  Really.

 9        Q.   Okay.  In paragraph 31 of your statement, you state that there

10     was a sniper squad at the battalion command directly subordinated to the

11     commander.  This would be Aleksandar Petrovic; correct?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   How do you know that the sniper squad existed and that it was

14     subordinated to the battalion commander?

15        A.   An order in the corps command said that sniper squads should be

16     established.  I can't remember when this was.  And it was directly

17     subordinated to the battalion commander.

18             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have page 3 of both

19     versions.  What I'll be referring to carries over onto page 4 of the

20     English version.

21        Q.   Mr. Maletic, on this page, we see two sections.  One section is

22     for the technical department, and the bottom section is for snipers.

23     Under the sniper list, there are names of 11 individuals.  These names

24     include Nebojsa Ivkovic, Zlatko Subotic --

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Can we scroll the list, please.

Page 21759

 1             MR. WEBER:

 2        Q.   Zlatko Subotic and Marinko Krneta.

 3             Is it correct that these are the names of the sniper squad whom

 4     you referred to in your statement?

 5        A.   In my statement I said that I didn't remember the names of those

 6     people from the sniper squad.

 7        Q.   Well, sir, a second ago, I just asked you about Mr. Ivkovic.  You

 8     indicated that he was present at some meetings of the battalion command.

 9     In this list, we see Mr. Ivkovic under the sniper section.  Is it correct

10     that he was, in fact, the commander of the battalion's sniper quad?

11        A.   I remember that Nebojsa Ivkovic was the commander of the signals

12     squad in the battalion.

13             MR. WEBER:  Your Honour, if I could tender this document at this

14     time.  I'm going to continue my line of questioning here after.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honour, the document is already MFI'd under

17     number P6517.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  P6517 is admitted into evidence.

19             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 19330.

20        Q.   Sir, coming up before you will be a signed statement provided by

21     Milan Hrvacevic, one of the deputy commanders of your battalion.

22             Mr. Hrvacevic provided this statement to the Sarajevo MUP on the

23     15th of March, 1996.  If you could please look at the beginning of the

24     statement, as can you see, your deputy commander describes his

25     familiarity with the battalion's sniper squad.  He mentions many of the

Page 21760

 1     names that were on the list that we just saw.

 2             My question:  Could you explain to us how the deputy commander

 3     would be familiar with this information, and you, the assistant commander

 4     for security and intelligence, would not know the same information?

 5        A.   Milan Hrvacevic was arrested after the Dayton Accord on the

 6     Fraternity and Unity bridge.  He was beaten up.  He provided

 7     statements -- I apologise.

 8        Q.   Sir -- okay.  It appears that Mr. Hrvacevic knows information

 9     related to the sniper squad.  Could you explain to us how he would know

10     and you not know the same information.

11        A.   I can't explain.  I told you I did not remember any names.

12        Q.   Is it correct, then, that you have no reason -- you have no

13     factual knowledge of the matters that Mr. Hrvacevic is then discussing in

14     this statement.  Is that your evidence?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   In this statement, Mr. Hrvacevic states:

17             "I emphasise that Zlatko Subotic and Marinko Krneta were known to

18     be the best snipers of our battalion, and they acquired this reputation

19     by actively taking part in sniper shooting."

20             Are you claiming here today that you were not aware of this

21     reputation?

22             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Objection, Your Honours.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, this is what I'm claiming

24     here.

25             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] It may be due to the English

Page 21761

 1     translation where it says "actively participated in opening sniper fire

 2     on buildings."

 3             I am reading the original B/C/S statement of this witness, where

 4     it is stated:

 5             "I would like to say that Zlatko Subotic and Marinko Krneta

 6     enjoyed the reputation as the best sniper shooters in our battalion.

 7     They acquired such an image as a result of their numerous activities and

 8     active participation in sniping activities."

 9             There's no reference to any buildings.

10                           [Trial Chamber confers]

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's just have a look, then, at the question.

12             I think that the question did not make any reference to

13     buildings, so, therefore, perhaps it was the way in which it was

14     translated or misunderstood.  A human error.  But, as it appears on the

15     transcript, there seems to be no problem.

16             And the witness has answered the question anyhow.  You had no

17     knowledge about their reputation.

18             MR. WEBER:

19        Q.   Since have you no knowledge of this information, is it correct

20     that you've reason to dispute these statements?

21        A.   You mean Milan Hrvacevic's statement?

22        Q.   Yes.  Since you have no knowledge of the facts that Mr. Hrvacevic

23     is discussing here, you have no reason to dispute these facts; is that

24     correct?

25        A.   Let me just say this briefly.  I met up with Milan Hrvacevic

Page 21762

 1     after the war, perhaps five or six years later, I don't know exactly

 2     when, and he told me very briefly that when he was arrested, he provided

 3     a statement, that he had to sign all sorts of things under duress.  He

 4     had been heavily beaten up and so on and so forth.  This is as much as I

 5     know from a conversation with him.  This is all he told me.  He wouldn't

 6     go into any further details.

 7        Q.   And you did not see any of that yourself; is that correct?

 8        A.   No.

 9             MR. WEBER:  The Prosecution would tender this statement into

10     evidence pursuant to Rule 89(C).  The document is further supported by

11     independent evidence, the list that was just previously admitted.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic.

13             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] We object to the admission of

14     this statement.  This statement was provided by a different witness

15     before a different body during a different procedure.  So far, our

16     practice has been not to admit such statements into evidence in this

17     particular way.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, of course, you are -- the Defence is not

19     admitting anything, but I think the case law is that statements taken for

20     the purposes of this Tribunal are not -- cannot be admitted unless

21     Rule 92 bis or 92 ter are applied.  But this is a statement taken by

22     another authority.

23             And if you could guide me, Mr. Stojanovic, where in the practice

24     or the case law of this Tribunal the admission of such statements from

25     the bar table are declared non-admissible, then I'd like to hear from

Page 21763

 1     you.

 2             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours --

 3             JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ...

 4             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] -- with your leave, this is a

 5     statement of which this witness has no knowledge.  The only thing that he

 6     knows is that five or six years after the statement was taken from

 7     Hrvacevic, if it was, indeed, taken from him, under what conditions it

 8     had been taken.  So there's no foundation for the admission of this

 9     statement through today's witness.

10             Second of all, this statement was provided to the state organs,

11     more specifically, to the police station in Sarajevo in March 1996.  In

12     no way is it suitable as evidence in this case.  That is why we object to

13     the admission of this statement into evidence.

14             By the way, I am not able to give you the case law reference, but

15     I believe in the Kosovo case and in the Popovic case, and with all due

16     respect, we have been working so long in this case when I use statements

17     from the Court of Bosnia-Herzegovina, some of those statements were not

18     deemed to be admissible in this case.  That's why I'm objecting to the

19     admission of Hrvacevic's statement through Maletic's testimony.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  The document will be marked for identification.  The

21     parties have an opportunity to further -- to make further submissions,

22     preferably in writing, on the admission of this document.

23             Madam Registrar, the number would be?

24             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 19330 receives number P6539, MFI,

25     Your Honours.

Page 21764

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  And it keeps that status for the time being.

 2             Mr. Weber, you may proceed.

 3             MR. WEBER:  And, Your Honour, if it assists, the main reason that

 4     we would be offering it is for -- as it goes to the witness's credibility

 5     that he was a position to know and he is claiming not to know of these

 6     individuals and someone similarly situated were.  So if that assists

 7     counsel --

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  I indicated that parties would have an opportunity

 9     to make further submissions, not at this moment orally.

10             You have another three minutes for further questions.

11             MR. WEBER:

12        Q.   Sir, in your statement, you describe the enemy forces that

13     opposed you.  In paragraph 19, you state:

14             "I know that my unit's counterpart on the opposite side was an

15     HVO unit called Kralj Tvrtko.  I was shown documents which I identified

16     because, while I was the assistant for intelligence and security, I

17     collected the initial information from the defectors."

18             Is it correct that the Defence showed you documents according --

19     about this subject?

20        A.   Please repeat your question.

21        Q.   Sir, in your statement, it indicates that you describe an

22     opposing HVO unit.  You indicate that you were shown documents which you

23     identified because "while I was the assistant for intelligence and

24     security," you "collected the initial information from the defectors."

25             Is it correct that the Defence showed you these documents?

Page 21765

 1        A.   I can't remember.

 2        Q.   Do you recall how many documents you were shown?

 3        A.   No.

 4        Q.   Do you recall who the authors of the documents were?

 5        A.   I knew about the enemy side.  I knew who was in front of our

 6     lines, and I heard that from the defectors.  This is what I have stated.

 7        Q.   Sir --

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber --

 9             MR. WEBER:  If I could ask just one question.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, one question.

11             MR. WEBER:

12        Q.   Sir, I just wanted to ask you this quickly before we finish for

13     the day.

14             We haven't had a full time to look at the statement that you had

15     with you when you first came to court, but from an initial glance at it,

16     there appears to be two different colour inks and possibly two different

17     handwriting on it.  Could you tell us, is there anyone else that wrote on

18     that statement besides yourself?

19        A.   No.  All of that is my handwriting.

20        Q.   Okay.  Thank you, sir.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Then we adjourn for the day.

22             Witness, before you leave the courtroom, I'd like to instruct you

23     that you should not speak or communicate in whatever other way with

24     whomever about your testimony, whether that is testimony already given or

25     still to be given tomorrow.  We'd like to see you back tomorrow morning

Page 21766

 1     at 9.30 in the morning in this same courtroom.

 2             You may now follow the usher.

 3                           [The witness stands down]

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber, according to my bookkeeping, you have

 5     1 hour and 20 minutes left.

 6             We adjourn for the day and we'll resume tomorrow, Thursday, the

 7     29th of May, 9.30 in the morning, in this same courtroom, I.

 8                            --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.19 p.m.,

 9                           to be reconvened on Thursday, the 29th day of May,

10                           2014, at 9.30 a.m.