Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 22127

 1                           Wednesday, 4 June 2014

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.32 a.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning to everyone.

 6             Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  This is case

 8     IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

10             The Chamber was informed, Mr. Traldi, that you would want to

11     raise a preliminary matter.  Is it a very short one so that the witness

12     can be escorted into the courtroom or would we need a bit more time?

13             MR. TRALDI:  I think it might take a minute or two, Your Honour,

14     and I would request that we go into private session.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  We move into private session.

16                           [Private session]

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Page 22128

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14                           [Open session]

15             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

17                           [The witness takes the stand]

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning, Mr. Cvoro.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Before Mr. Traldi continues, I would like to remind

21     you again that you are still bound by the solemn declaration you've given

22     at the beginning of your testimony.

23             Mr. Traldi.

24             MR. TRALDI:  Thank you, Mr. President.

25                           WITNESS:  ZDRAVKO CVORO [Resumed]

Page 22129

 1                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 2                           Cross-examination by Mr. Traldi: [Continued]

 3        Q.   Good morning, sir.

 4        A.   Good morning.

 5        Q.   We left off yesterday discussing the assistance you provided in

 6     establishing SRNA.  Turning now to some other Bosnian Serb institutions,

 7     the municipal government of Pale was also supposed to supply organs of

 8     the Republika Srpska in Pale with accommodation; correct?

 9        A.   Yes, yes.

10        Q.   The municipal government in Pale was supposed to supply organs of

11     the Republika Srpska with telephone lines?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   Telephone numbers that were not indispensable were mobilised,

14     weren't they?

15        A.   Yes, such cases also happened.  Those that were indispensable to

16     the functioning of the authorities at Pale.

17        Q.   And I'm going to ask about just a couple of examples.  Telephone

18     numbers were mobilised for the government; correct?

19        A.   Not only for the government, also for all the other institutions

20     that moved to Pale.  The capacity of the post office at Pale was very

21     small.  It wasn't enough even for all the citizens of Pale and their

22     needs before the war.  A large number of citizens --

23        Q.   If I --

24        A.   -- did not have telephone sets --

25        Q.   If I could --

Page 22130

 1        A.   -- I just wanted to explain what the situation had been before --

 2        Q.   I understand that --

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  If there's any need to explain, Mr. Traldi will ask

 4     for it, and at the end of the matter we have discussed, if you think that

 5     there is something that really needs to be further explained, you can

 6     briefly hint at that and then most likely you will be allowed to give an

 7     explanation.

 8             Please proceed.

 9             MR. TRALDI:

10        Q.   To return to the couple of examples that I was going to ask you

11     about, phone numbers were mobilised for the Bosnian Serb Presidency;

12     correct?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   And other numbers were mobilised for the Bosnian Serb Assembly?

15        A.   For all the institutions, as I've said, beginning with

16     Presidency, the Assembly, and all the others.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Traldi will phrase his question.  If he wants to

18     go one by one, you should follow as a witness.

19             Please proceed.

20             MR. TRALDI:

21        Q.   Which other Bosnian Serb institutions did you intend to refer to

22     a moment ago for which telephone numbers were mobilised?

23        A.   For the needs of the army, for the needs of the radio, the

24     television, all the ministries that made up the government, the military

25     hospital, they needed the greatest number of telephone numbers.

Page 22131

 1        Q.   Now, sir, turning now to your role as president of the

 2     Executive Board in Pale municipality, the Executive Board was affiliated

 3     with the Municipal Assembly; correct?

 4        A.   Yes, the Assembly is the largest law-making branch of authority.

 5        Q.   And the Executive Board was involved as a result with the

 6     municipal budget, wasn't it?

 7        A.   Yes.  In fact, the Executive Board made the proposal and the

 8     budget was approved by the Assembly.

 9        Q.   I'd like to look at --

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I ask one question.

11             You said -- no, I got it.  I think I misunderstood something, but

12     re-reading the question and answer makes it unnecessary to put any

13     further question.

14             Please proceed, Mr. Traldi.

15             MR. TRALDI:  Thank you, Mr. President.

16             I'd like to look at one example of a budget proposal.  If we

17     could have 65 ter 30711.

18        Q.   Now, first, here on page 1 in both languages, do you recognise

19     your name towards the bottom right-hand side?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   And in the top left we see this document comes from the

22     Executive Board; correct?

23        A.   Yes.

24             MR. TRALDI:  If we could turn to page 2 in both languages.

25        Q.   What we see here is a decision on the budget of the

Page 22132

 1     Pale municipality for May 1992, and under Article 2 we see a list of

 2     expenditures made; correct?

 3        A.   Yes, yes.

 4        Q.   And among others, we see fuel expenditures for the Crisis Staff,

 5     the Executive Board, and the TO; correct?  And it's under point 1:

 6     "Organi uprave"?

 7        A.   Yes, there are several entities, they are enumerated here.

 8             MR. TRALDI:  Turning now to page 3 in the English but still on

 9     page 2 in the B/C/S.

10        Q.   We see a list of other users and we see what looks like

11     100.000 dinars --

12        A.   I can't see in the Serbian.  I only see the English.

13             MR. TRALDI:  If we could zoom in on the --

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Could the usher assist if --

15             MR. TRALDI:  Sorry.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  -- if the witness only sees the --

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Now I see it.  The assets of the

18     Democratic Party.

19             MR. TRALDI:

20        Q.   And that's exactly what I was going to direct your attention to,

21     sir.  What appears to be funding to the Serb Democratic Party in Pale; is

22     that right?

23        A.   Well, you see how it rates compared to other items.  Those are

24     minor funds and they were meant to finance the Serb Democratic Party, to

25     cover -- to cover costs for the previous month and the funds were raised

Page 22133

 1     in the previous month --

 2        Q.   Sir --

 3        A.   -- however, generally the law on budget --

 4        Q.   Actually, I think you might have been about to say what I'm about

 5     to ask you which is:  The budget generally provided for funds for

 6     political parties, didn't it?

 7        A.   For all the political parties that formed the government, that

 8     participated in governing, received funds from the budget.

 9        Q.   And the SDS is the only political party funded in this document;

10     correct?

11        A.   Well, that party had absolute power at Pale, and at that time and

12     until I don't know for how long exactly, they operated from Pale.

13             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honours, I tender 65 ter 30711.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

15             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 30711 receives number P6562,

16     Your Honours.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  P6562 is admitted.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I just have one question.

19             Mr. Cvoro, were there any other parties other than the SDS in the

20     Pale Assembly, Municipal Assembly of Pale?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The SDA participated in the

22     government, SDS, and SDP.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  And may I ask a follow-up question.  Did the

25     other two parties also receive funding?

Page 22134

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At that time they were not active,

 2     they were not working, they didn't need financing.  This is the budget

 3     only for the month of May.

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  And the following month, did the other parties

 5     receive any funding?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] For the next month we didn't have a

 7     budget because the war broke out and we moved to humanitarian aid and the

 8     distribution of basic necessities.  This was just a temporary request to

 9     the budget for financing the government by the budget.  The municipality

10     of Pale was part of the city.  All the funds that we distributed from

11     taxes, contributions, and communal taxes and fees went to the account of

12     the city and the --

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  May I --

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- city distributed assets

15     according to a certain key.

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I'm only interested if only the SDS was financed

17     by the municipal budget or if at any point in time also the other parties

18     received money?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In the regular budget, funds were

20     also planned for the financing of other parties, all the parties that

21     participated in government.

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  And did they receive the money?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I believe they did.  I cannot say

24     now yes or no, but the funds for them were allocated and they probably

25     received them.  What I'm trying to --

Page 22135

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you, you have answered --

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- explain is that we get --

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  You have answered my question.  Thank you very

 4     much.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Traldi.

 6             MR. TRALDI:

 7        Q.   Sir, turning to another position you held now.  You mentioned

 8     Friday that you also served as president of the Pale Crisis Staff;

 9     correct?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   And that's not mentioned in your statement; correct?

12        A.   I think it is.

13        Q.   The crisis --

14        A.   The statement contains an explanation of my understanding of the

15     role of Crisis Staffs.  I'm not sure, but I think it's there.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  But an explanation of the role, is that the same as

17     you serving on that Crisis Staff as president?  I can explain the

18     position of the Belgian government, but that doesn't make me a member of

19     the Belgian government, does it?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can say that I was president of

21     the Crisis Staff for a short period of time, and that can be seen from

22     the documents that I signed.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  But it's not in your statement; that was the

24     question.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't remember now the exact text

Page 22136

 1     of that statement.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Traldi.

 3             MR. TRALDI:

 4        Q.   Now, the Crisis Staff operated for about two months; correct?

 5        A.   For approximately two months, yes.

 6        Q.   And specifically that would be approximately April and May 1992?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   When your Crisis Staff had material needs, it would request

 9     assistance from the Bosnian Serb authorities; correct?

10        A.   Probably.

11        Q.   I'd just like to look at two quick examples.

12             MR. TRALDI:  If we could have 65 ter 03662 brought to our

13     screens, and I'd ask for page 2 in both languages.

14        Q.   So looking at the centre, lower part of the page in the original,

15     do you see your name?

16        A.   Yes, yes.

17        Q.   And we can see this is from the Pale Crisis Staff; correct?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   And this is a request for material assistance for the normal

20     functioning of the administration organs and municipality organs of Pale;

21     correct?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   The request includes writing machines; correct?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   And various office material?

Page 22137

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   Telephones?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   I won't go through each example.

 5             MR. TRALDI:  But if we could turn back to page 1 in both

 6     languages.

 7        Q.   Here we have a letter from Mr. Djeric, and looking at the first

 8     paragraph he writes:

 9             "In the addition to this document, we are joining the

10     specification of the needs of Pale municipality for making this area as

11     equipped as possible in order to correspond to the newly created

12     conditions."

13             So the government of the Serbian Republic of BiH is supporting

14     your request for supplies here; correct?

15        A.   I see it here.  Although I see it for the first time, it's

16     obviously a document of the government.

17             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honours, I tender 65 ter 03662.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

19             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 03662 receives number P6563,

20     Your Honours.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  P6563 is admitted.

22             MR. TRALDI:  And I'd ask for 65 ter 03693.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Traldi, in the document we looked at a second

24     ago, in the request where writing machines, et cetera, are asked, it is

25     also explained that one of the reasons is that they had given away all

Page 22138

 1     their equipment and material to the government and the republic organs,

 2     so that it's rather refunding for what was paid for by themselves.  Is

 3     that something you want to draw our attention to as well or -- because --

 4             MR. TRALDI:  It's something, Mr. President, that I thought was

 5     evident from the document, but I agree --

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, well --

 7             MR. TRALDI:  -- certainly --

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  -- yes, all the other, that writing machines are

 9     there, is just as self-evident from the document as this line.

10             MR. TRALDI:  That's true, Mr. President.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

12             MR. TRALDI:

13        Q.   This document, similarly, reads:

14             "The Pale Municipality Crisis Staff addressed the Government of

15     the Serbian Republic of BiH with the request to help them procure the

16     fuel necessary for transport of refugees ..."

17             And then in the next paragraph says:

18             "Considering the above, we kindly ask you to deliver one cistern

19     of fuel to DD 'Romanijaprevoz' from Pale, as soon as possible, to be used

20     for the designated purpose of transporting refugees.

21             "The pro forma invoice for the delivered fuel shall be submitted

22     to the Budget of the Serbian Republic of BiH."

23             And in the bottom corner we see the signature of Mr. Djeric

24     again.  This document, sir, also shows the government of the RS

25     responding to your Crisis Staff's requests and supporting them; correct?

Page 22139

 1        A.   Yes, it does assist them, and our capacities were not enough for

 2     all the requirements of sending refugees.  I said already there were

 3     five to ten buses daily filled with refugees going to Serbia.

 4             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honours, I tender 65 ter 03693.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 03693 receives number P6564,

 7     Your Honours.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  P6564 is admitted.

 9             MR. TRALDI:

10        Q.   Now, sir, your evidence in your statement is that Crisis Staffs

11     were set up pursuant to binding orders from the Presidency of the SFRY;

12     is that right?

13        A.   Yes, in keeping with the law and the instructions of the

14     SFRY Presidency and the Presidency of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

15        Q.   Now, the Chamber has received considerable evidence that

16     Bosnian Serb authorities also issued instructions to form

17     Serb Crisis Staffs.  Are you aware of that?

18        A.   I don't know about any specific cases.  I know that Crisis Staffs

19     were automatically established in keeping with the law in the entire

20     territory of Republika Srpska and I believe in the territory of

21     Bosnia-Herzegovina as well.

22        Q.   Now, when you say "in keeping with the law," you're a professor

23     of All People's Defence; correct?

24        A.   Yes.  I professionally oversaw contingency plans and defence

25     plans.

Page 22140

 1        Q.   And the word "Crisis Staffs," it's not explicitly used in the

 2     ONO law, is it?

 3        A.   Not in the law, but in the instructions of the Presidency of the

 4     SFRY and BH, yes, there are Crisis Staffs because they are in charge of

 5     plans for emergency situations.

 6        Q.   I'd just look at a similar set of instructions, then.

 7             MR. TRALDI:  If we could have Exhibit P3038.  These are the

 8     Variant A and B instructions.  And if we could have page 3 in both

 9     languages.

10        Q.   I'd direct your attention to point 3, which notes:

11             "SDS municipal boards shall establish immediately Crisis Staffs

12     of the Serbian People in the municipality ..."

13             And then it lists the people who shall be members.  Did I read

14     that correctly?

15        A.   Well, possibly.  I mean, you've probably read it correctly, but

16     I've never seen these instructions and I never had them before me.  They

17     asked me about that when I testified for Mr. Radovan Karadzic, I said the

18     same thing.

19        Q.   So my question for you was simply:  Did I read that correctly?

20     And can I take it your answer was:  Yes?

21        A.   Could you please repeat that.  I don't know what you're getting

22     at.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  You don't -- you just have to listen to the

24     question.  Did Mr. Traldi read correctly what is in this document?

25             MR. TRALDI:

Page 22141

 1        Q.   I'll read again to permit you to answer it --

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, Mr. Traldi, even if the witness would say you

 3     did not read correctly, the Chamber is in a position to verify whether

 4     you read it correctly or not.  So if the witness has any problems -- we

 5     followed Mr. Traldi's words and he read it, at least this portion,

 6     correctly, Mr. Cvoro.

 7             Please proceed.

 8             MR. TRALDI:  I'm relieved to hear that, Your Honour.

 9        Q.   Now, this document shows that the Bosnian Serb authorities also

10     issued instructions to form Crisis Staffs; correct?

11        A.   Obviously, yes, but I've never received any such instructions.

12        Q.   Now, sir, in paragraph 12 of your statement --

13             MR. TRALDI:  And I'm done with this document.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Before it goes, earlier you indicated, Mr. Cvoro,

15     that there were other parties in the Pale Municipal Assembly.  I see this

16     instruction at paragraph 3 refers only to the SDS.  Are other parties

17     not -- were they not part of the Crisis Staff that had to be established?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I don't know.  I'm telling

19     you -- I mean, these instructions, over here, the last paragraph 3,

20     says --

21             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  We cannot find the

22     reference.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Now, if that means something, I've

24     read it out to you.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.  You didn't answer my question.

Page 22142

 1     My question was --

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you -- but the interpreters said that they

 3     could not find what you read, the last paragraph 3.  Could you please

 4     read that again.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is paragraph 3 of these

 6     instructions that have been presented to me and it's the last paragraph

 7     of that paragraph.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Is that where it says:

 9             "The Commander shall appoint a member of the ..."

10             Is that the part you had on your mind?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  I'll read it for you.

13             "The Commander shall appoint a member of the Crisis Staff to be

14     the Co-ordinator for Relations with the SDA ... municipal leaders."

15             You wanted to draw our attention to that?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I see that that is written

17     there.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I ask you a few questions on the matter.

19             Your Crisis Staff in Pale, was that composed exclusively of

20     Serb members?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Only Serb members.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Was the SDA consulted before you established that

23     Crisis Staff?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was not a political person.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  That was not what --

Page 22143

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was a non-political person.  I

 2     mean -- no, I don't know, I don't know.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  You don't know.  You said the Crisis Staff which you

 4     presided over for a short period was in accordance with the law and

 5     regulations.  You explained to us that the word "Crisis Staff" does not

 6     appear in the law.  Does the Crisis Staff appear in the regulations in

 7     the sense that Crisis Staff of exclusively one ethnicity can be

 8     established?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I don't know.  I don't know.

10     I'm not aware of any of this.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Since your Crisis Staff was exclusively

12     composed of Serb members, would you agree with me that there could be at

13     least a discussion about whether such a Crisis Staff would be in line

14     with the existing legislation and regulations, it being exclusively Serb?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Judge, sir, members of the

16     Crisis Staff were the leaders of the executive organs, the

17     representatives of political organisations, and representatives of the

18     members of parliament who were in the Assembly.  Now, why there wasn't a

19     member of the SDA or some other party, I don't know.  That was decided

20     upon by the political echelons.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, is that a "yes" to my question, that there

22     could be at least a discussion on the composition, where you say on the

23     one hand side that the Crisis Staff would also have representatives of

24     political organisations and that you do not know why the SDA was not

25     represented in the Crisis Staff?

Page 22144

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Obviously it is possible -- I mean,

 2     that that should have been the case, but I don't know.  There were very

 3     few officials who were in top positions from the other --

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  I'm just testing your evidence that this

 5     Crisis Staff was in accordance with the existing legislation and

 6     regulations.  And from your last answer, I take it that you do agree that

 7     there could be some discussion about the legality of the composition of

 8     your Crisis Staff, but that it's -- wasn't something you had given

 9     thought or at least that your thought was the responsibility of others

10     and not of you even though you are presiding over that Crisis Staff for a

11     certain period of time.  Is that well understood?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, this is what I can say:  That

13     I know who became part of the Crisis Staff.  No one from the SDA held

14     office, I mean the kind of office that meant they would be members of the

15     Crisis Staff.  That's why they did not become members of the

16     Crisis Staff.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  BUT they were -- SDA was a political organisation

18     and had representatives.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is a matter for political

20     agreement between the Party of Democratic Action and the SDS.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Traldi, you may proceed.

22             MR. TRALDI:

23        Q.   You said -- just to follow-up on a little bit of your last

24     answer, you said:

25             "No one from the SDA held office, I mean the kind of office that

Page 22145

 1     meant they would be members of the Crisis Staff."

 2             That's your evidence; correct?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   The kind of office that would make a person a member of the

 5     Crisis Staff included the office of President of the Municipal Assembly;

 6     correct?

 7        A.   Yes, who ex officio was supposed to be president of the

 8     Crisis Staff, but was not in this case.  Then the president of the

 9     Executive Board, the secretary of the Secretariat for National Defence,

10     the secretary for the Secretariat of Economic Affairs, the secretary of

11     the Secretariat for Urban Planning.  Then Members of Parliament in the

12     Assembly of Bosnia-Herzegovina, then the Territorial Defence Staff

13     president, then the commander of the brigade or battalion, depending on

14     the unit involved in the territory.  So then two representatives from the

15     economy, the economic sector, they were members of the Crisis Staff, and

16     also the commander of civilian protection.  All of these positions were

17     held by Serbs.

18             MR. TRALDI:  I think I'd just point the Chamber to the similarity

19     of the positions that he's mentioned with the list provided here in

20     paragraph 3, and that would complete my questions about this document.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  Please proceed.

22             MR. TRALDI:

23        Q.   Now, sir, in paragraph 12 of your statement you say that:

24             "At the outset, people in the territory were organising

25     themselves militarily."

Page 22146

 1             So I'm going to take this step by step and first I have a very

 2     focused question.  When you say "the territory," you mean Pale

 3     municipality; correct?

 4        A.   Only the municipality of Pale.

 5        Q.   And were you involved with organising those units?

 6        A.   Well, the units had already been organised in a way.  These are

 7     units of the people's defence and of the municipal staffs of

 8     Territorial Defence.

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Traldi, I think you added a word which I

10     can't find in the statement.  I only read that specific sentence, the

11     second one in paragraph 12 -- no, it's part of the first one.

12             "I can say that at the very outset people in the territory were

13     organising themselves ..."

14             MR. TRALDI:  You're right, Your Honour.  The next sentence refers

15     to TO units, but I should have been clearer that I was using the word

16     "militarily" to describe the next sentence and not that it appeared in

17     the statement.  I apologise.

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

19             MR. TRALDI:

20        Q.   Sir, I want to look at a couple of documents now in that respect.

21             MR. TRALDI:  If we could have Exhibit P3030, page 6 in the

22     English and 7 in the B/C/S.  This is a document sent to the command of

23     the SFRY armed forces from the command of the 2nd Military District on

24     the 20th of March, 1992.

25        Q.   And do you see, sir, on that page in the B/C/S point 5:

Page 22147

 1     "Volunteer forces in the 2nd VO zone"?

 2        A.   Well, I don't know what to say to this.  This is a document of

 3     Commander Kukanjac.  What have I got to do with that?

 4        Q.   All I've asked for the moment, sir, is if you see the text I

 5     mentioned.  Do you see that text?

 6        A.   I see it, I see it, of course I do.

 7        Q.   Turning to page 8 in the B/C/S and looking at sub-point (f), it

 8     notes that:

 9             "The JNA has distributed 51.900 weapons (75%), and the

10     SDS 17.298."

11             Were you aware that the JNA and SDS had distributed tens of

12     thousands of weapons?

13        A.   I was not.  I did not know about that.

14        Q.   And that amounts between them to the distribution of 69.198 arms;

15     correct?

16        A.   Well, I mean, if you want me to read out the number that is here

17     I can, but don't make me talk about something that -- that has nothing to

18     do with me, some information that has nothing to do with me.

19             MR. TRALDI:  If we can turn to page 11 in the English and 16 in

20     the B/C/S.

21        Q.   We see a list of municipalities and numbers of men, and at

22     point 7 we see:  "Pale 2.000."  Do you see that?

23        A.   I don't know what you mean, what you mean.  List of what?

24        Q.   Well, we see one column that says "opstina," that's

25     "municipalities"; correct?

Page 22148

 1        A.   I see that.

 2        Q.   And the next column refers to men; correct?

 3        A.   I see it says "men" and I see it says "2.000."  I don't know what

 4     it means.  I don't know what this table means.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Nothing has been asked to you up till this moment

 6     apart from whether you see in this document the same as Mr. Traldi puts

 7     to you.  He'll certainly put a question to you in relation to this.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Excellent.

 9             MR. TRALDI:

10        Q.   Directing your attention now below the number 75 where it says:

11     "Total:  69.198."  Do you see that as well?

12        A.   I see that.

13        Q.   And that's the same as the number of arms reflected in the text I

14     read you a moment ago; correct?

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Number of men, not arms.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I mean, that's what you say.

17             MR. TRALDI:

18        Q.   I imagine my math can be checked later, sir, but I would submit

19     that it's the same number.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  My apologies.

21             MR. TRALDI:

22        Q.   So I'd ask you, were you aware that 2.000 Serbs in Pale had been

23     armed by the JNA?

24        A.   I didn't know that.

25             MR. TRALDI:  Turning now to 65 ter 10691.  I'm going to ask for

Page 22149

 1     page 8 in the English and page 10 in the B/C/S.

 2        Q.   Now, the discussion of Pale begins towards the bottom of the page

 3     and in the English it starts where it says:

 4             "A number of people wearing camouflage uniforms ..."

 5             I want to call your attention to some specific points in that

 6     paragraph.  First, it says a few sentences later that:

 7             "... about 300 armed people from this territory were accommodated

 8     on the premises of the Fire Department in Pale.  They were in readiness

 9     and according to another person, one group had returned that morning from

10     'sabotage training' in the JNA barracks in Kalinovik that lasted about

11     20 days ..."

12             You weren't aware of that sabotage training, were you?

13        A.   I was not, I was not.  This is the first time I see this, what

14     you've just read out to me.

15        Q.   And turning to the next page in B/C/S, we see language:

16             "Apart from the above, on 01.03 and 02.03 a large number of Serbs

17     received weapons at the V.P. Koran and the weapons from the TO staff

18     warehouse were distributed by Radoja Vojvodic, teacher at a primary

19     school and reserve officer in," at the very end continues to the next

20     page in English, at the top, "reserve officer in the JNA ..."

21             Were you aware that JNA officers were involved in distributing

22     arms to Serbs in Pale?

23        A.   I did not know that.  Believe me, I just know that the municipal

24     staff of the Territorial Defence had a certain quantity of weapons and

25     they had it under their control.  Now, when they distributed that,

Page 22150

 1     probably at the very beginning of the war; as for all the rest, I don't

 2     know.

 3             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honours, I'd tender this document.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

 5             Mr. Lukic.

 6             MR. LUKIC:  I will -- sorry, I would object to inclusion of this

 7     document into our case.  There is no source because it's not signed,

 8     there is no name who produced the document, there is no signature, there

 9     is no stamp.  This is not a document.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, it's a document, but you doubt whether it's an

11     authentic document that's --

12             MR. LUKIC:  But it is not a document.  There is no trace who --

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, every piece --

14             MR. LUKIC:  Yeah, but there --

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Every piece of paper with text on it is a document,

16     Mr. Lukic.

17             MR. LUKIC:  Yeah.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  But you think it has no probative value and it's --

19             MR. LUKIC:  If we can --

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, we'll ask Mr. Traldi --

21             MR. LUKIC:  -- learn from Mr. Traldi who made this document.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Traldi, where does it come from?  Who is the

23     author?  Who produced it?

24             MR. TRALDI:  My information indicates it was received from the

25     RS on 27 November 2002 and has been admitted in the Krajisnik case.  I'm

Page 22151

 1     happy to have it MFI'd and provide further information after the break if

 2     that's helpful.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, objections against it being MFI'd at this

 4     moment so that Mr. Traldi could provide further information?

 5             MR. LUKIC:  I don't like when something is MFI'd because later on

 6     it always becomes an evidence.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  That's not true, Mr. Lukic.  It sometimes does if

 8     there is a satisfactory resolution of the problem that caused it to be

 9     MFI'd rather than to be admitted.  If that is what you wanted to say, we

10     agree; but it's not what you said.  You said MFI-ing --

11             MR. LUKIC:  I agree with what you said --

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Then it will be MFI'd.

13             Madam Registrar.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 10691 receives number P6565,

15     Your Honours.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  And is marked for identification.

17             One of the purposes, Mr. Lukic, is also to secure that the

18     document is in the system and cannot be changed again and that we know

19     for sure what document was read by Mr. Traldi.  That's one of the

20     purposes for marking for identification, and I think there's every reason

21     to use that instrument to avoid conclusion.

22             Please proceed, Mr. Traldi.

23             MR. TRALDI:

24        Q.   Just one more document on this point, sir.

25             MR. TRALDI:  If we could have 65 ter 28476.

Page 22152

 1        Q.   Looking at the beginning of the document, it reads:

 2             "'At the beginning of September, unknown people started coming to

 3     the office of Captain 1st Class Momir Tomcic, they mostly carried bags

 4     with SDS emblems ...'"

 5             And then it gives some names.  And the last sentence of that

 6     paragraph reads:

 7             "It was agreed at the beginning that under the guise of

 8     volunteerism SDS units were to be trained for what is being done now.

 9             "In the following days, groups of 15 to 20 men started arriving,

10     first from Sarajevo, then from Pale, Foca, Sokolac ..."

11             And it mentions some other places and it describes the training

12     they received.

13             My question is only:  Were you aware that JNA officers were

14     involved in training Serbs from Pale?

15        A.   I'm not aware of that.  I don't know what the month is.

16     September.  At that time in 1992 I was not in power.  If it's the

17     beginning of September 1991, I wasn't in power then either so I don't

18     know.

19             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honours, I would tender this document as well

20     as a public exhibit.

21             MR. LUKIC:  Same objection, no stamp, no signature, no number.

22             MR. TRALDI:  And that, too, I would offer to address at the

23     beginning of the next session.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Then the document will be MFI'd.

25             Madam Registrar, the number would be?

Page 22153

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 28476 receives number P6566,

 2     Your Honours.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  And is marked for identification.

 4             MR. TRALDI:

 5        Q.   Sir --

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  By the way, the witness said "if this happened in

 7     September ..." of course the document dates back to May 1992, at least

 8     that's what we find as a date on the document.

 9             MR. TRALDI:  That's right, Mr. President.

10        Q.   Sir, just to conclude this topic.  The Chamber has also received

11     evidence - and I'd refer to P2001, page 73 in the English and 97 in the

12     B/C/S - that Momcilo Mandic told the RS Assembly that together with

13     Stanisic he "pulled out 560 Hecklers from the MUP to Romanija and

14     distributed them to Sokolac, Rogatica, Han Pijesak, and Pale."

15             Now, my first focused question for you:  Mr. Mandic and

16     Mr. Stanisic were both officials in the Bosnian Serb Ministry of the

17     Interior; correct?

18        A.   Yes, that's correct.  They were in the leadership, I mean the

19     Ministry of Republika Srpska.

20        Q.   And were you aware that Bosnian Serb police officials distributed

21     Hecklers in Pale?

22        A.   I'm not aware of that.  The police was linked up along the

23     vertical line or chain, and I had nothing to do with the police or the

24     military.

25        Q.   Now, in light of those pieces of evidence, I'd put to you that it

Page 22154

 1     wasn't just that people from Pale were organising themselves militarily,

 2     they were receiving assistance from the JNA and from the police, weren't

 3     they?

 4        A.   Well, probably there were such cases too but I don't know.  I'm

 5     not aware of any details.

 6             MR. TRALDI:  And, Your Honours, I'm about to turn to a new topic

 7     and for continuity I'd suggest that we break a minute early.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  We'll take the break now.

 9             Mr. Cvoro, we'd like to see you back in 20 minutes.  We take a

10     break first.  You may follow the usher.

11                           [The witness stands down]

12             JUDGE ORIE:  We will resume at ten minutes to 11.00.

13                           --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.

14                           --- On resuming at 10.53 a.m.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Traldi, I do understand that you wanted the

16     Chamber to move very shortly in private session?

17             MR. TRALDI:  Just very briefly, Mr. President.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, we'll move into private session for only a

19     couple of minutes.

20                           [Private session]

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 22155











11  Pages 22155-22156 redacted.  Private session.















Page 22157

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10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

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15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23                           [Open session]

24             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

Page 22158

 1             Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.

 2             Yes, Ms. Bibles.

 3             MS. BIBLES:  Mr. President, while we're waiting, there is an

 4     issue perhaps we could address and that has to do with the following

 5     witness.  We were contacted yesterday afternoon by Mr. Lukic, who

 6     requested that we switch the witness order to RM311 next and then

 7     Mr. Andan following that.  We indicated that we do not oppose that

 8     witness switch.  We're obviously always interested in accommodating

 9     witness needs and the efficiency of the trial.  We do have concerns in

10     that at 8.48 last night after receiving -- after approving that switch,

11     we received a substantial three-page proofing note.  And I can address

12     this at the --

13                           [The witness takes the stand]

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, apart from that matter, when was Chamber staff

15     informed about the wish to change the order of witnesses, Mr. Lukic?

16             MR. LUKIC:  As before, when the Prosecution case was going on, we

17     tried to solve the issue with the Prosecution.  So --

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And so we were not informed yet?

19             MR. LUKIC:  I think that only in the morning, the staff -- the

20     Chamber staff was informed.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  And at what time approximately?

22             MR. LUKIC:  I have to check that.  I don't have it in front of

23     me.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Because we were informed by Madam Registrar

25     that there was a possible change already for the next witness, and we

Page 22159

 1     were rather surprised that -- because we had no idea and we usually

 2     prepare for our hearings as well.

 3             We leave it for the time.  We'll first continue the examination

 4     of the witness, but there is an outstanding issue.

 5             You do not oppose but ...?

 6             MS. BIBLES:  We do not oppose, but we want to place the issue of

 7     this late disclosure --

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  On the record.

 9             MS. BIBLES:  -- simply on the record, Your Honour, for future

10     reference potentially.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  It is on the record hereby.  Thank you, Ms. Bibles.

12             Mr. Traldi.

13             Mr. Cvoro, apologies for having to finalise a few procedural

14     matters that kept us busy in your absence.

15             Please proceed.

16             MR. TRALDI:

17        Q.   Sir, I'm going to turn now to the group of prisoners from

18     Bratunac who were brought to Pale.

19             MR. TRALDI:  For reference, this is discussed in paragraph 16 of

20     the witness's statement.

21        Q.   And I'm going to ask some simple questions about that group.

22     First, there were about 400 men in the group of prisoners; correct?

23        A.   Approximately that number.  I don't know precisely, but yes, I

24     think that's about it.

25        Q.   And you personally learned about the prisoners from

Page 22160

 1     representatives of the Pale police; correct?

 2        A.   Yes.  Early in the morning, police representatives woke me up and

 3     they said they had a problem regarding these prisoners that were

 4     arriving.  Men, actually, people, I can't say "prisoners."

 5        Q.   And that was because this fell under the responsibility of the

 6     Crisis Staff?

 7        A.   I cannot say that they fell under the responsibility of the

 8     Crisis Staff, but we felt responsible to protect them in some way and

 9     provide for them.

10        Q.   When you say "we," you are referring to the Crisis Staff;

11     correct?

12        A.   Correct, yes, the Crisis Staff and the police in whose

13     jurisdiction this was.

14        Q.   Now, after you found out, you gathered the Crisis Staff together;

15     correct?

16        A.   Yes, I gathered the Crisis Staff, but I must say that I don't

17     know the reason why, how it came about that they came to Pale.  To this

18     day I don't know this.  But when we were brought to the wall, when the

19     people came, I was afraid.  Immediately I called the Crisis Staff

20     together and I assigned people to go and talk to Mr. Karadzic,

21     Mr. Krajisnik, and the prime minister.  They went and they talked to

22     them.  We lodged a protest about why those people had come to Pale.

23     Mr. Karadzic reacted very quickly and positively.  He said -- I'm not

24     sure whether he was there at that moment or not, but he was consulted.

25     And he said that not a hair from their heads could be harmed, that they

Page 22161

 1     had to be sent to the area where they belonged, in the direction of

 2     Sarajevo, as quickly as possible --

 3        Q.   Sir, I think you --

 4        A.   -- and there was also an order --

 5        Q.   I think you've slightly exceeded the question that I asked you,

 6     and I appreciate that you want us to understand the details.  What I'm

 7     going to do next is show you two orders, and perhaps if the one you were

 8     about to mention is different, we can discuss it afterwards.

 9             MR. TRALDI:  If we could have Exhibit P3177.

10        Q.   Now, this is an order signed by Branko Djeric to the

11     Sokolac Crisis Staff.  And directing your attention to point 1, it refers

12     to the transport of prisoners from Pale to Visoko via Ilijas.  This group

13     of prisoners was taken towards Ilijas from Pale; correct?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   And it's right, based on what you've just told us, that the

16     republic-level authorities in the RS were involved in organising the

17     transport of this group of prisoners; correct?

18        A.   Yes, correct -- or rather, not directly but according to the

19     document, yes, they did take part.

20        Q.   Not just according to the document, but you testified that

21     Mr. Karadzic, Mr. Krajisnik, and the prime minister were consulted;

22     correct?

23        A.   Yes, yes.  That's what I said.

24             MR. TRALDI:  If we could have 65 ter 03681.

25             And, Your Honours, for the record, that past document, P3177, is

Page 22162

 1     also discussed in P3170, RM85's 92 bis evidence.

 2        Q.   Now, this document is addressed to the Ilijas Crisis Staff and

 3     reads:

 4             "Please approve and provide passage through your territory for

 5     the group of prisoners who are presently at Pale and travelling to

 6     Visoko ..."

 7             It says they were travelling towards Visoko; that was in Muslim

 8     territory.  Correct?

 9        A.   I think that it was the Ilijas territory which was controlled by

10     Muslim forces, but here it states:

11             "In the territory of the municipality of Visoko ..."

12             I don't know any details, but I had information that they had

13     gone to the Ilijas municipality area, which was controlled by the Muslim

14     forces.

15        Q.   Now, it says next:

16             "Transport and escort for those prisoners will be provided by the

17     Crisis Staff Pale."

18             It was, in fact, the Pale police that secured the transport of

19     the prisoners as they were taken onwards; correct?

20        A.   Yes, the police was in charge of security and to ensure that the

21     prisoners went to the entity border.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, could I ask you the following, earlier when

23     you used the word "prisoners," you said:

24             "... the people who were arriving.  Men, actually, people, I

25     can't say 'prisoners.'"

Page 22163

 1             Now, in your last answer you refer to them as prisoners, as all

 2     the documents apparently do.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] From the point of view of Pale,

 4     they were not captured; they had simply arrived.  No one captured them in

 5     Pale, but I see that the terminology that is being used in these

 6     documents is "prisoners."  As far as we were concerned, it was just

 7     arrival on the Pale territory.  We did not consider them captured.  We

 8     did not capture them.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Are you serious in telling us that if someone is not

10     captured at the place where he's transported through, that he certainly

11     is just a person and not a prisoner anymore?  If we transfer a prisoner

12     from prison A to prison B and they pass by Vienna, does that mean that in

13     Vienna he is not a prisoner any further because he was not captured in

14     Vienna?  Are you seriously telling us that if you don't capture them,

15     that they're just ordinary people?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I didn't have any

17     experience with prisoners, but I did have this experience of people

18     coming there.  I don't know how it was -- I mean, it's possible that they

19     were being treated as prisoners, but I don't know how they were captured.

20     It's possible that they were captured by the very fact that they had come

21     there.  It's possible, but I don't know.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Were they in a situation where you would say they

23     were fully free to move around as they wished or ...?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said that I don't know why,

25     because of what reason, how they had arrived.  But they were not free to

Page 22164

 1     move around normal, of course not, because they were there, they were

 2     simply brought in front of the police station.  So what were we supposed

 3     to do in the Crisis Staff?  How to treat them?  But we reacted quickly,

 4     we intervened, and we did what we thought was best in the circumstances.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  So you considered them to be in a position in

 6     which they were not free to move and in that respect could be considered

 7     to be prisoners?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Then they didn't have freedom of

 9     movement, at that time, because of their own security but also the

10     security of all of us.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Security of you?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was threatened by their arrival,

13     I myself and many other Crisis Staff members.  If you have 400 people

14     coming to the territory of ours -- I mean, if you understand me.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, I do not fully understand because there seems

16     to be a suggestion in your answer that they were a threat to you.  I now

17     understand from the follow-up --

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no, they were not.  I'm just

19     talking about some kind of moral endangerment simply because of that

20     number of persons who had arrived.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, so if you would have to be protected against

22     anything, it would have been against those who brought them there,

23     because I do understand that they did not come voluntarily.  So if you

24     needed to be protected, it was not against these men but against those

25     who brought them?

Page 22165

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Certainly, the people who had

 2     brought them to the Pale area in that manner, yes.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  And what had they to be protected against?  What was

 4     threatening them?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] From reprisals by people who did

 6     not feel the same way in relation to them.  There were always extremists

 7     who would maybe be responsible for some incidents.  Our objective was to

 8     avoid all of that.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  And did they have to be protected in any way against

10     being perhaps detained without a proper cause?  Did you consider that?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There was police protection.  The

12     police station in Pale.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  You have not understood me well.  Was there any

14     thought that those you saw to be not free to move around should be

15     protected against being deprived of their liberty illegally?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Definitely, they should have been

17     protected from that and they were.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, they were not free to move, if I understand,

19     so they may have been illegally detained at this moment.  You considered

20     them -- you saw them in a prison, prisoner-like situation.  Have you ever

21     thought about inquiring into whether they were deprived of their liberty

22     in accordance with the law?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Evidently they were not deprived of

24     their freedom in accordance with the law.  They had been brought in

25     because they -- by the very virtue of the fact that they were brought in,

Page 22166

 1     in that situation they were denied their freedom of movement and all of

 2     that.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, and you have not considered what you could do

 4     to restore their freedom of movement so as to go home again and live

 5     their lives?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That would have been very risky,

 7     Your Honour.  We felt that our priority was to provide food for them, to

 8     provide some kind of accommodation - I cannot say whether it was adequate

 9     accommodation - and then to safely see them leave for wherever they were

10     going and this is what we did.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Is it relevant to know whether they -- if illegally

12     deprived of their liberty, whether they could go home again where they

13     came from or that they were escorted out of the territory of

14     Republika Srpska?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not decide these things.

16     Other people decided where they would be going, how, and in which way,

17     but we did lodge a protest, a very strenuous protest over their having

18     been brought to Pale in such a way.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, but if I understand you well, mainly because it

20     bothered you, not because it bothered those you considered to be in a

21     position as if they were prisoners?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Certainly it bothered them because

23     their lives were at risk by virtue of the fact that they had been brought

24     in such a way.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Traldi.

Page 22167

 1             MR. TRALDI:

 2        Q.   Two brief follow-ups on His Honour's questions, sir.  First, you

 3     knew these men had been brought to Pale from Bratunac; correct?

 4        A.   I found out early that morning from the police.

 5        Q.   And when Mr. President asked you about them going home, you

 6     replied at transcript page 39, line 24:

 7             "That would have been very risky ..."

 8             So did you know at the time that it would have been dangerous for

 9     them to be returned to Bratunac?

10        A.   First of all, we had no means of transporting them.  We didn't

11     know where we would be taking them.  We addressed the authorities with

12     this question and they made the decision how to do this and they assumed

13     the responsibility for it.

14        Q.   And I want to try again with just a very focused question.  You

15     believe --

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Traldi, when I listened to your last question, I

17     think it first needs to be explored risky for whom, for the prisoners or

18     for those to intervene.  That is an unclear matter at this moment.

19             MR. TRALDI:  Perhaps I'll start there, Mr. President.

20        Q.   You said it would have been risky to return the prisoners home.

21     For whom would it have been risky?

22        A.   For the prisoners, of course.  How could we do it freely if there

23     was a war going on all around?  If we were to release them suddenly and

24     let them move through that war-affected zone, they could have been

25     killed.  How could they move through combat zones?  This was the month of

Page 22168

 1     May when the situation in Pale was the hardest.  The months of May and

 2     June were the hardest days for Pale, for the residents and for me as the

 3     president.  More citizens of Pale got killed during that month of May and

 4     June than throughout the rest of the war.  And the sentiments of the

 5     people were not kind, and I believe that our action was right.  We

 6     enabled those people to move safely to the territories of the

 7     municipalities where they belonged.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Where did they then belong, could you tell us?  How

 9     could you tell us where they belonged other than where they came from,

10     their own homes?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, you are asking me

12     about things that I did not decide, such as where they would go, in which

13     direction.  I was not even able to influence such decisions.  What I was

14     able to do as president of the Crisis Staff --

15             JUDGE ORIE:  I stopped you because you expressed that they went

16     where they belonged.  I wasn't saying anything about who decided where

17     they belonged, but apparently you considered them to belong not at their

18     own homes but somewhere else.  That's what I'm asking you about.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Maybe I misspoke, maybe I didn't

20     express myself very well.  They went to places that the authorities had

21     designated, and of course they belonged to the communities where they

22     came from.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, because it's the second time that you used this

24     language, that's why I asked now.

25             Please proceed, Mr. Traldi -- one final question.

Page 22169

 1             If you say it was dangerous to bring them back to Bratunac, was

 2     that any more dangerous than to bring them from Bratunac to Pale?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know how they came.  My

 4     opinion is that it would have been very difficult to transport them back

 5     to Bratunac.  That's my opinion, but the decision was not mine.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  No, but my question was, irrespective of who

 7     decided, whether it would have been any more dangerous to take them back

 8     to Bratunac than it was then to take them from Bratunac to Pale, that is,

 9     in trucks over the road?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't tell you that.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Traldi.

12             MR. TRALDI:

13        Q.   And, sir, you mentioned that they were brought to Pale in front

14     of the police station, but the record isn't quite clear who brought them.

15     They were brought there by armed Serbs; correct?

16        A.   I don't know how, for what reason or why.  All I know is that

17     they were brought and abandoned outside the Pale police station.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  The question specifically was whether they were

19     brought there by armed Serbs, not why they were brought there but whether

20     armed Serbs brought them there.  That was the question.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I wasn't there when they were

22     brought.  I don't know who brought them and who was in the escort.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Traldi, please proceed.

24             MR. TRALDI:  Before --

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Maybe just one question.

Page 22170

 1             Who escorted them to Visoko?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They were escorted by the police.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And were the police armed?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

 6             MR. TRALDI:  Before moving on, Your Honours, I'd tender

 7     65 ter 03681.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 03681 receives number P6567,

10     Your Honours.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.  It's admitted into

12     evidence.

13             Please proceed.

14             MR. TRALDI:  And I'm going to ask Ms. Stewart to play a video now

15     with 65 ter 22356A.  CLSS has pre-confirmed the translation, so my

16     understanding is based on the Chamber's guidance we need only play it

17     once, but of course I stand to be corrected.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, I take it when it has been prepared in

19     such a way that we can look at it once only?

20             May the video be played.

21             No speaking at a volume level that I'm even able to hear.

22             Mr. Stojanovic, if Mr. Mladic wants to consult, you know under

23     what conditions it is permitted.

24                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

25             JUDGE ORIE:  I do understand that most likely the problem is with

Page 22171

 1     CMSS rather than with the Prosecution.  Perhaps you move on and that

 2     we'll try to give it another try later on.

 3                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  No, I'd forgotten that it's IT rather than CMSS.  So

 5     if I blamed anyone incorrectly, then -- but the emphasis was on that it

 6     was not the party that provides the video that is at this moment seen as

 7     the cause of the problems.

 8             Perhaps you meanwhile move on, Mr. Traldi.

 9             MR. TRALDI:  I appreciate that, Mr. President.

10        Q.   Sir, I'm going to turn now to the departure of your Muslim

11     neighbours from Pale.  I think we agree that the ethnic make-up of Pale

12     changed during the war; correct?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   And that many Muslims left?

15        A.   Most of them.

16        Q.   Now, this Chamber has received evidence that one of the reasons

17     Muslims were fearful and wanted to leave Pale was a meeting between

18     Nikola Koljevic and Muslim representatives, where Koljevic said it didn't

19     matter if the Muslims wanted to live with the Serbs because the Serbs

20     didn't want to live with the Muslims.  You don't purport to be aware of

21     Mr. Koljevic's position on population transfers, do you?

22        A.   No, I wasn't.

23        Q.   In your statement you ascribed the departure of Muslims from Pale

24     to their fear of retaliation against them because of some incidents where

25     Serbs were killed in combat; is that right?

Page 22172

 1        A.   That's certainly one of the reasons.  I said a moment ago that

 2     the month of May and the month of June were the hardest months for the

 3     citizens of Pale.  When I say "the citizens of Pale," I mean all of them.

 4             It was also the hardest month for the government of Pale and for

 5     me as the president of the Executive Board.  It was very hard to look in

 6     the eye mothers who had lost in just a few days 46 sons, to look in the

 7     eyes children who had lost their parents.  And I was overcome by fear.

 8     How could we after all of that keep the Muslims in Pale?

 9        Q.   Now, I'm going to ask you just some very specific questions about

10     those incidents.  First, you weren't present at any of those combat

11     incidents, were you?

12        A.   No, I was not, but I attended funerals over the course of

13     two days outside the church in Pale.  Those were burials of soldiers who

14     were savagely killed outside Zepa.  And there was an attack on the

15     stronghold at Trebevic --

16        Q.   And, sir --

17        A.   -- and 12 fighting men of Republika Srpska were killed.

18        Q.   -- I will get to each of those.  For now, I'm going to ask you

19     first:  Can you confirm that you heard about these incidents from others,

20     in whatever manner?

21        A.   Of course I heard about it from others.  I was not a direct

22     participant in those incidents and skirmishes.

23        Q.   Then I'm going to ask you briefly what you heard as to the date

24     of each incident and I'm going to go one by one.  Can we agree to proceed

25     in that manner?

Page 22173

 1        A.   Well, the first incident occurred at Renovica --

 2        Q.   I will just ask you the date of each incident, if that's okay.

 3        A.   All right.

 4        Q.   And that Renovica incident is the first you list in paragraph 10

 5     of your statement.  That occurred on or about the 22nd of May, 1992;

 6     correct?

 7        A.   That's correct, roughly.

 8        Q.   And the next incident you mention, the killing of JNA soldiers in

 9     Dobrovoljacka Street, you heard that was on or about the 3rd of May,

10     1992; correct?

11        A.   Correct.

12        Q.   And the incident you were mentioning relating to the killing of

13     soldiers from Pale on the way to Zlovrh, that was on or about the

14     4th of June, correct, also 1992?

15        A.   Correct.

16        Q.   And that incident happened generally in the Zepa area?

17        A.   Yes, correct.

18        Q.   And the next incident which you were describing a moment ago as

19     well, the death of 12 soldiers on the front line at Trebevic on the day

20     of the funeral of those soldiers, that funeral obviously took place after

21     the 4th of June; correct?

22        A.   Yes, correct.

23        Q.   And the last incident you mentioned in your statement related to

24     Serbs in the Pofalici neighbourhood of Sarajevo and you heard that took

25     place in the middle of May 1992; correct?

Page 22174

 1        A.   The expulsion of Serbs from Pofalici; correct.

 2        Q.   Now, in your statement you mention a decision that non-Serbs did

 3     not have to move out of Pale.

 4             MR. TRALDI:  For the record, that's D493, that decision.

 5        Q.   That was issued on the 11th of April, 1992; correct?

 6        A.   Correct.  Right at the beginning, the Muslims demanded to be

 7     moved out of Pale.  It was on the 9th of April.  We responded and you

 8     have that document in evidence.

 9        Q.   I'd like to look at the request they sent.

10             MR. TRALDI:  If we could have 65 ter 30714.

11        Q.   We see in the top left it's sent to the Crisis Staff.  So going

12     step by step, we see:

13             "Subject:  Proposal of Muslim citizens of the Pale and Koran

14     local communes aimed at dealing with the newly created situation

15     concerning the arrests of unarmed members of the Muslim community."

16             Did I read that correctly?

17        A.   I believe that's it.  I can see it now.  I'm reading.  Yes,

18     that's it.

19        Q.   And looking at the first paragraph, it refers to the date

20     9 April 1992; correct?

21        A.   Yes, 9 April 1992.

22        Q.   And I want to just look at a couple of points in this document.

23     Looking first at point 4, it notes -- it requests:

24             "That representatives of the Muslims and other citizens be

25     co-opted into the Pale municipal Crisis Staff."

Page 22175

 1             Now, you testified earlier today that everyone on the Pale

 2     municipal Crisis Staff was a Serb.  Can we take it this request was not

 3     accepted?

 4        A.   I responded in my document that all these relations between the

 5     SDA and the Serbian Democratic Party, that everything was decided between

 6     those two parties.  So they were not co-opted by the Crisis Staff.

 7        Q.   So just taking it step by step, no Muslims became members of the

 8     Crisis Staff, did they?

 9        A.   Well, it depended on the position you occupied, whether you would

10     become a member.  No Muslim occupied such a position that would make him

11     eligible for becoming a member of the Crisis Staff.  I've already

12     described this.  It doesn't mean that there should have been no Muslims

13     on the Crisis Staff.  Perhaps there should have been.

14        Q.   Now looking at point 10, here we see that request.

15             MR. TRALDI:  And point 10 will require us, I think, to go to the

16     next page in B/C/S.  And if we can zoom in on the bottom of the page in

17     English as well.

18        Q.   And it reads:

19             "That persons and families who do not feel safe on the territory

20     of Pale municipality be allowed to leave the area without hindrance and

21     in an organised manner."

22             That's the request; correct?

23        A.   Yes, yes.

24        Q.   And then it continues - we'll need to turn to the next page in

25     English - with an explanation:

Page 22176

 1             "(Due to reasons such as abuse, unlawful arrests of only Muslims,

 2     break-ins into apartments, disarming Muslim police officers, seizing

 3     personal weapons with permits and similar)."

 4             Did I read that correctly?

 5        A.   You've read this correctly, but it doesn't necessarily mean that

 6     things were the way it's stated here.

 7             MR. TRALDI:  Well, first I'll tender this document, Your Honours.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 30714 receives number P6568,

10     Your Honours.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  P6568 is admitted.

12             MR. TRALDI:  Now, the Chamber has received evidence of a number

13     of the things described in that paragraph in Exhibit P260.  For brevity,

14     let's just look at disarming Muslim police officers, and if we could have

15     65 ter 30716.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Excuse me, aren't you going to show

17     my reply, that is to say, the reply of the Crisis Staff to this Muslim

18     request?

19             MR. TRALDI:

20        Q.   The Chamber has the benefit of your reply, D493, and it was

21     discussed on direct examination.  Now, this article, which we can zoom in

22     towards the top left of the B/C/S version, is titled:

23             "Pursuant to the Order of the 'Government of the Romanija SAO.'"

24             And it explains as it says in the title:

25             "Why Muslim and Croatian policemen were removed from the Pale and

Page 22177

 1     Sokolac SJB's ..."

 2             And it's dated 26 March 1992.  The Muslim police had been removed

 3     from the Pale SJB by then; correct?

 4        A.   My opinion is that the Serbs from Stari Grad and Centar

 5     municipality were first removed in some way from their police stations,

 6     and then they came to Pale.  This was followed by the removal of Muslims

 7     from Pale.  Considering that this was in the jurisdiction of the ministry

 8     and the police stations, I don't know any details.

 9        Q.   If I can just summarise your answer or perhaps point to some

10     salient features of it.  I think you agreed that the Muslim police from

11     Pale were removed; correct?

12        A.   After the expulsion, or rather, removal of Serbs from the

13     Stari Grad and Centar municipalities, Muslims were removed from the

14     Pale police station.  I personally received in my office those people who

15     had come from Sarajevo, looking for a way to connect their years of

16     service, their years of pensionable service.  I suppose they resolved

17     that problem eventually.  Those were active-duty policemen.

18             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honours, I'd tender this document as well.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

20             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 30716 receives number P6569,

21     Your Honours.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

23             MR. TRALDI:

24        Q.   And I'll show you one more document before the break.

25             MR. TRALDI:  If we could have Exhibit P262.

Page 22178

 1        Q.   And this will be an order you signed on the 7th of May, 1992.

 2             Now, this order relates to disconnecting certain phone numbers.

 3     I'm not going to ask you about the telephone system, but I'll ask you

 4     some specific questions about this document.  In paragraph 13 of your

 5     signed statement for the Karadzic case, you said:

 6             "It is an order to switch off the phone numbers of 15 persons of

 7     Muslim nationality according to the Law on Territorial Defence at that

 8     time, private resources necessary for the functioning of the authorities

 9     could be employed.  As far as I recall, it was about people who had

10     already left the territory of Pale municipality and their apartments or

11     houses."

12             So I'll ask you a couple of focused questions about that

13     evidence.  Do you confirm today that this order refers to Muslims?

14        A.   First of all, let me tell you one thing.  You said I signed it?

15     In fact, I didn't.  This is not our stamp.  As far as I can see, this is

16     the Serbian Democratic Party, but I can give you an explanation, as I did

17     before when testifying in the Karadzic case --

18        Q.   For the moment --

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you please first answer the question.  You'll

20     have an opportunity to further explain after you've answered the

21     questions.

22             MR. TRALDI:  Perhaps I'll ask again.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

24             MR. TRALDI:

25        Q.   Do you confirm today that this order refers to Muslims?

Page 22179

 1        A.   Yes, yes, you can see that from the names.

 2        Q.   And it's right, isn't it, that your recollection is these Muslims

 3     had left Pale before 7 May when you signed the order?

 4        A.   I repeat, I did not sign this, as you pretend, but it's

 5     evident -- or, rather, I suppose that they had by that time already left

 6     Pale.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Cvoro, perhaps it helps you that in the English

 8     version of this document it reads at the end, above the signature:

 9             "In the place of the president of the Crisis Staff of the Pale

10     municipality, Zdravko Cvoro ..." and then between brackets it reads:

11     Signed by someone else.  So there seems to be no --

12             MR. TRALDI: [Overlapping speakers] --

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Could we scroll down, please.

14             MR. TRALDI:  We may have to go to the second page.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  The second page of the English version.

16             Mr. Traldi, this is just one of those examples where a proper

17     introduction of the document, that is, date, author, signature,

18     et cetera, especially if it raises any issues, that the way to do it is:

19     This is a decision, et cetera, it is signed, as the document says, on

20     your behalf but not by you, so that we can avoid these kind of

21     discussions.

22             MR. TRALDI:  Of course you're correct, Mr. President.  I

23     apologise.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

25             MR. TRALDI:  I think we might be at the time for the break,

Page 22180

 1     Your Honour, and I am about to turn to a slightly different topic.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, you have no further questions on this document

 3     and no follow-up on --

 4             MR. TRALDI:  No follow-up on this document, Mr. President.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Then we take a break, but could I first ask that

 6     Mr. Cvoro would be escorted out of the courtroom.

 7             My information, Mr. Traldi, by the way, is that after the break

 8     the video system would be functional again.

 9                           [The witness stands down]

10             MR. TRALDI:  I appreciate that information being provided,

11     Mr. President, and we'll certainly be turning to a different topic then

12     after the break.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

14             We take a break and we'll resume at ten minutes past 12.00.

15                           --- Recess taken at 11.52 a.m.

16                           --- On resuming at 12.28 p.m.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.

18             Mr. Traldi, perhaps while we are waiting for the witness to come

19     in, with these phone numbers, you said these are Muslim numbers, the

20     witness says but they had left already, is it the position of the

21     Prosecution that they had not left yet?  Or is it the position of the

22     Prosecution that they -- it's despite the fact that they may have left

23     and that these may have been empty houses, it nevertheless is

24     discriminatory on ethnic grounds?

25             MR. TRALDI:  It's the Prosecution's position, first, other

Page 22181

 1     evidence, such as P260, indicates a larger number of Muslim phone numbers

 2     were disconnected.

 3                           [The witness takes the stand]

 4             MR. TRALDI:  Second, the fact that they had left already at that

 5     stage is relevant to evaluating the reasons that Muslims were leaving

 6     Pale municipality.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, but it's not challenged, that part of the

 8     answer of the witness?

 9             MR. TRALDI:  No, Mr. President.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

11             Then you may proceed.

12             We had a little technical delay, Mr. Cvoro, so that explains our

13     late start.

14             Mr. Traldi will now continue.  And I think you will play the

15     video if I am looking at my screen.

16             MR. TRALDI:  You have anticipated me correctly, Mr. President.

17     I'm going to ask again that we play a video with 65 ter 22356, and I

18     understood the last time we discussed it that we'll only have to play it

19     once.  22356A.

20                           [Video-clip played]

21             THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "Two and a half thousand men,

22     exclusively from the municipality of Bratunac near the Drina, survived a

23     real massacre after they trudged through the wilderness without clothes

24     or shoes on for eight days before they reached Visoko, where they were

25     provided with accommodation in the sports hall and medical help in the

Page 22182

 1     health centre.  Many of them made their last steps on that way.

 2     Witnesses are talking about hundreds of killed at their house doors and

 3     at the local stadium in Bratunac where they were brought to by Seselj's

 4     and Arkan's people assisted by the local Serb population.  The ones that

 5     were not shot were tortured and beaten almost to death.

 6             "How many days did you spend in Pale?

 7             "Three days.

 8             "Where are you from?

 9             "I'm originally from Prigrad but I lived in Bratunac.  And my

10     brother, baker, was working for them.  They did not let him go.  The last

11     day they surrounded the building and tied him up.  I stopped by to buy

12     some bread.  They left my brother ... they beat, beat, beat him the whole

13     day ... and he says ... he says ... look, your brother is killed and

14     tomorrow it will be you.

15             "You can see it well here.  I was beaten all over my back.

16             "This here, this is the cross made by a knife; is that right?

17             "Yes, by a blunt knife.

18             "Blunt knife?

19             "What did they beat you with?

20             "They beat me with iron sticks.  They beat me with everything,

21     other things, wooden.

22             "Were you beaten in Bratunac or Pale?

23             "In Bratunac, this was in Bratunac.

24             "Both in Bratunac and Pale.

25             "This was in Bratunac."

Page 22183

 1             MR. TRALDI:

 2        Q.   You can see that the men from Bratunac had been abused before

 3     they arrived in Pale, hadn't they?

 4        A.   I don't know that.

 5        Q.   You can see on the video the injuries from the beatings, can't

 6     you?

 7        A.   Well, I see the video, but I don't know if this is authentic.  I

 8     mean, I cannot say anything, I cannot confirm this.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Just for my understanding, you leave it open that

10     this was staged, that these woundings on the back or --

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know, believe me.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, you don't know anything about it?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know anything about it.  I

14     don't have any knowledge of this having happened in Pale.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  No, Mr. Traldi said that it happened

16     before - that's, I think, the question.

17             "You can see that the men from Bratunac had been abused before

18     they arrived in Pale, hadn't they?"

19             So if you say, "I don't know anything about what happened in

20     Pale," Mr. Traldi is putting it to you whether you agree with him that

21     they had been abused before they arrived in Pale.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, it's possible that they had

23     been abused.  From this footage we can see that they had been abused, but

24     whether that was in Bratunac or somewhere else, I don't know.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

Page 22184

 1             The question was not whether it happened in Bratunac.  The

 2     question was about whether it happened before they arrived in Pale,

 3     wherever that may have been.

 4             Please proceed.

 5             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honours, I'd tender the video.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  The video receives number P6570, Your Honours.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  P6570 is admitted into evidence.

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I would like to put a question to the witness in

10     this context.

11             When these -- when the prisoners arrived in buses in Pale, did

12     you meet them personally?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not meet them when they

14     arrived.  Is that what you're asking me?

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Indeed.  That was what I'm -- was asking --

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was not present when they

17     arrived.  I said --

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you --

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- that -- yes?

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.  I was just asking you if you saw

21     them.  Did you see them later when they stayed in Pale?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.  No, I did not see them.  I did

23     not see them when they left either.

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  That means that you never have seen this group of

25     people?

Page 22185

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Never.

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Traldi.

 4             MR. TRALDI:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 5        Q.   I want to turn now to a different topic.  At the beginning of the

 6     war there were three mosques in Pale municipality; correct?

 7        A.   Yes.  In Pale specifically, the town, there was not a single

 8     mosque, but in the municipality of Pale there were three mosques.

 9        Q.   Those mosques were preserved as long as the Muslim population was

10     present; correct?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   And all of them were destroyed after that, weren't they?

13        A.   At the time I was not in power when they were destroyed.  While I

14     was in power, they were intact --

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Why are you again and again -- you are not under

16     attack here.  You appear as a witness to tell us what you know.  You're

17     not here to respond to blame -- being blamed for what happened when you

18     were in power.  You're here to answer questions.  Now, the question

19     simply was whether the mosques were intact as long as the Muslims were

20     there and that they were destroyed after that, irrespective of who's

21     responsible, who did it, whatever, just a matter of fact.

22             Could you please answer the question as it was put to you?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand, Judge.  After the

24     Muslims left, as far as I know, the mosques were destroyed.  How and in

25     which way, I don't know.

Page 22186

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  No one asked you.  They were destroyed therefore.

 2             Please proceed.

 3             MR. TRALDI:  And if we could have, turning now to the convoys out

 4     of Pale, if we could have Exhibit P3972.

 5        Q.   And we see that these are minutes of the Pale Municipal Assembly

 6     on 18 June 1992.  Do you see that?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Turning to page 4 in both languages, the bottom of the page in

 9     English and the middle of the page in B/C/S, at item 2 refers to a

10     discussion and the opinions of the Assemblymen on the issues of Muslims

11     moving out of the territory.  Several lines below that it reads:

12             "The President of the Assembly and the Chairman of the

13     Executive Committee ..."

14             Now, the chairman of the Executive Committee would be you;

15     correct?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   "... objected to the activities of the public security station in

18     this respect because it had" - and now we need to turn to the next page

19     in English - "participated in the attempt to organise the Muslims and

20     move them out, which had been done without a political decision which

21     meant that the official structures of power had been bypassed.  This was

22     why the attempt had been prevented."

23             So the police had been involved in pressuring Muslims to leave

24     Pale even before this meeting on the 18th of June; correct?

25        A.   Well, this statement -- well, I agree with this statement but

Page 22187

 1     these were exceptional cases.  I mean, generally -- well, it was

 2     individuals probably who abused their positions and that is why we lodged

 3     this protest.

 4        Q.   Now, after this decision was issued - I'm not asking now about

 5     the content of the decision but about how it was perceived - after the

 6     decision was issued, Muslims interpreted it as saying that they had to

 7     move out of Pale municipality; correct?

 8        A.   Yes -- well, that's why I said that.  Many people abused and

 9     misinterpreted the decision, but this kind of decision -- well, it didn't

10     say that they must, et cetera, it is the way it's been written.

11        Q.   And people abusing and misinterpreting the decision included

12     Serbs who applied pressure on Muslims to leave; correct?

13        A.   That's right.  There were individuals who interpreted this in

14     their own way and exerted pressure.

15             MR. TRALDI:  I'm done with this document.  If we could have P264.

16     This is a decision of the Pale SJB issued on the 2nd of July, 1992.

17        Q.   And this decision grants the request by Muslim and Croatian

18     citizens living in the Pale centre to move out; correct?

19        A.   Well, the public security station was in charge and in the

20     Assembly decision -- I mean - how do I put this? - there was this

21     conclusion to do it this way and probably they did it on the basis of the

22     decision of the Assembly of the municipality of Pale, as written here.

23        Q.   And at the end it says:

24             "We hereby call on police and military patrols to enable the

25     unobstructed passage of three buses transporting Muslim civilians in

Page 22188

 1     their respective territories."

 2             Did I read that correctly?

 3        A.   I think that you read it correctly, as it is written here.

 4        Q.   So it's right that Muslim civilians were transported out of Pale

 5     by police officers of the Pale SJB; correct?

 6        A.   Muslims on the basis of their requests and the lists that were

 7     kept by the centre of public security, escorted by the police, left in an

 8     organised fashion in the direction of Sarajevo.

 9        Q.   And they were transported towards Stari Grad, Sarajevo; correct?

10        A.   Yes, yes, all of that is Sarajevo.  Pale used to be a Sarajevo

11     municipality too.

12        Q.   And the old area of Sarajevo, that would have been on the other

13     side of the confrontation lines?

14        A.   Yes, there was the Serb municipality of Stari Grad and the

15     federal Muslim municipality of Stari Grad, the old town.

16        Q.   And the federal municipality would have been in Muslim territory;

17     correct?

18        A.   Yes, yes.

19        Q.   And on the other side of the confrontation lines?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   These people's transport out of Pale was covered in the media;

22     correct?

23        A.   I think so.  I'm not sure.  I haven't read this.  At that time

24     there was only the SRNA news agency, there was the radio, there was TV

25     Republika Srpska with its headquarters in Pale.  They probably followed

Page 22189

 1     all of that.

 2             MR. TRALDI:  Well, if we could have 65 ter 30717.

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  May I put first a question with respect --

 4             MR. TRALDI:  Of course, I apologise.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  -- to the document on the screen.

 6             Mr. Cvoro, this decision is called:

 7             "Decision to grant the request made by citizens of Muslim and

 8     Croatian citizens living in the Pale centre."

 9             Do you know if all citizens of Muslim and Croatian ethnicity

10     signed such a request?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I think it was the obligation

12     of the Assembly, that -- that people move out voluntarily.  Now, I don't

13     know whether everybody signed that or not, but I think that most of them

14     did sign this request to leave because that was the decision of the

15     Assembly too.  This is a constitutional right of each and every citizen

16     guaranteed by the constitution, that they can live wherever they want.

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  And if a Muslim or a Croat would have preferred

18     to stay, what would happen to him?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, he'd enjoy all the civic

20     rights enjoyed by other citizens of Pale.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Do you know of any such a case?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Above the place where I lived,

23     there was this lady who was in this weekend cottage all along and she

24     died of old age.  She walked around, did her own shopping, et cetera.

25     Her first name was Zerina, I don't know her last name.  There are other

Page 22190

 1     such cases too, but I don't know individually.  I know of this specific

 2     case.

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  And she stayed after the moving out of the other

 4     Muslim and Croatian citizens; correct?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Correct.  She stayed.  After Dayton

 6     they made an offer to her, asking whether she wanted to leave.  They were

 7     also looking for her from Zenica and she said:  No, I want to stay here

 8     with the people who accepted me like a normal citizen.

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you --

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I contacted her --

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you --

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- a countless number of times and

13     I asked her if she had any problems and --

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.  You answered my question.

15             Mr. Traldi.

16             MR. TRALDI:

17        Q.   To follow up on His Honour's question, this is labelled a request

18     made by citizens of Muslim and Croatian citizens, so one of the

19     requests -- one of the rights that large numbers of Muslim and Croatian

20     citizens don't seem to have enjoyed is the right to stay free of the fear

21     that you describe in your statement that you say made them want to leave;

22     isn't that right?

23        A.   Well, Mr. Prosecutor, it is only human to be frightened, to be

24     afraid.  There's not a single person who is not afraid.  I was frightened

25     too and I left.  So why force someone to stay on if they wish to leave?

Page 22191

 1        Q.   You left Sarajevo, correct, and went to Pale?

 2        A.   Yes, with my family, with my children who were underage.  When I

 3     decided -- when I was trying to make a decision as to whether I should

 4     leave or not, I thought it's better for me to make a decision and leave

 5     than to repent all my life.

 6             MR. TRALDI:  If we could have 65 ter 30717.

 7        Q.   This is an article from Oslobodjenje on the 3rd of July.  I had

 8     asked a minute ago if this was covered in the media.

 9             MR. TRALDI:  Could we zoom in on the bottom of the page centre in

10     the B/C/S.

11        Q.   And this refers to the people who'd been expelled from Pale;

12     correct?

13        A.   Well, this is the media from Sarajevo as far as I can see.

14     Croats -- many Croats -- actually, I didn't say that.  Many Croats did

15     not leave, they stayed on in Pale.  Obviously this is the right of each

16     and every journalist, writer, to write whatever they deem fit.

17        Q.   Sir, I'd asked a simple question which was:  This refers to the

18     people who'd been expelled from Pale; correct?

19        A.   I'm saying that people were not expelled from Pale.  They left

20     upon their own request.

21        Q.   Let's drop that term, then, for a moment.  This refers to people

22     who had left Pale; correct?

23        A.   It can be put that way too.

24             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honours, I'd tender this document.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

Page 22192

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 30717 receives number P6571,

 2     Your Honours.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

 4             Perhaps, Mr. Traldi, it's -- before we continue.

 5             Witness, is it clear what happens at this moment during the

 6     examination?  Is it clear to you?  And perhaps I take one example to just

 7     explain to you.  In your statement at paragraph 10, you list a long

 8     series of incidents where Serb people were wounded or killed, and then in

 9     that same paragraph you say:  Well, the Muslim population of Pale will

10     have left because they feared retaliation and they felt unsafe since

11     those crimes had been committed by their Muslim compatriots.  That's your

12     explanation, and you said they requested to leave.

13             Now, Mr. Traldi puts all these incidents to you and makes clear

14     that all these incidents happened after the discussion on a decision on

15     whether Muslims would leave or would not leave.  That's one.  Second, he

16     puts to you this request which doesn't say:  We fear retaliation, but we

17     are abused, we are arrested, we are whatever.  What Mr. Traldi is doing,

18     he puts to you that your undocumented and to the extent it is documented,

19     that is, referring to specific incidents, just can't be true because

20     these incidents happened after they requested to leave; and second, in

21     their request they clearly state that it's because of the abuse that they

22     want to leave and not out of fear of retaliation.

23             Now, this happens during the whole of this examination.  Do you

24     have -- first of all, I would like to know for certain that you

25     understand what Mr. Traldi is doing, that Mr. Traldi makes an effort to

Page 22193

 1     demonstrate that what you said is inconsistent with the timing of the

 2     incidents you rely on; and second, that it is inconsistent with the

 3     reasons given in this document.  I want you to be sure that you

 4     understand what now happens in this cross-examination so that you have a

 5     fair opportunity to respond to what Mr. Traldi did not specifically

 6     mention to be inconsistent, but he clearly suggests that your statement

 7     is inconsistent with both the timing of the incidents and inconsistent

 8     with the documentary evidence related to the expressed wish of Muslims,

 9     why they want to leave.

10             I think it would be fair that you have an opportunity - and I

11     just give this as one of the examples of many - that you comment on what

12     seems to be the core issue of the cross-examination, but therefore I

13     wanted you to be aware of what it exactly is.  And perhaps you could use

14     this example which I gave about the inconsistencies, to say something

15     about it, not about all kind of other things but about the

16     inconsistencies which are clearly at the centre of the cross-examination.

17             If you want to say something about it after I've explained to you

18     what the issue is, then of course you're free to do so.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Judge, sir.  All of

20     these things that happened, of course, influenced the decision that was

21     reached and the fear of the Muslims, why they wanted to leave Pale.

22     We've discussed that, what were the things that happened that made the

23     Muslims consider leaving Pale.  Since this is very important -- a very

24     important question --

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Let me just try to understand you correctly.  I

Page 22194

 1     pointed at two things:  First, inconsistency in chronology with the

 2     incidents; and the second, the reasons given by the Muslims in that

 3     document why they wanted to leave.  Now, you started your answer by

 4     saying:

 5             "All of these things that happened ..."

 6             What are you referring to?  Are you talking about the incidents

 7     which came --

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The mentioned events about which

 9     the Prosecutor -- the gentleman of the Prosecution asked me.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  That he says came after the request in which

11     the Muslims said:  We are abused, we want to leave.  So that could not --

12     that's clearly the position of the Prosecution, that could not have

13     explained fear for retaliation for events that had not yet happened.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I've said that there were

15     individual pressures from the police and from some other people to have

16     the Muslims leave.  Misinterpretation of the decision - I've already said

17     that - all of these things, of course, influenced people and raised their

18     concerns and so on.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Isn't it true that the written request was before

20     the decision, but let me just remember the chronology.

21             The request in which the Muslims said, the last portion, we'd

22     like to leave, that was late March?

23             MR. TRALDI:  The 9th of April --

24             JUDGE ORIE:  9th of April --

25             MR. TRALDI:  -- Mr. President --

Page 22195

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  -- and the decision was taken on the?

 2             MR. TRALDI:  On the 11th of April they issued a decision saying

 3     the Muslims didn't have to leave --

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.

 5             MR. TRALDI:  -- and then on the 18th of June a decision saying

 6     they could.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  So therefore, Witness, if the witness -- if the

 8     Muslims requesting to be able to leave, if they rely on abuse, arrest,

 9     et cetera, that -- if that is preceding the decision, then a

10     misinterpretation of the decision could not have caused them to write

11     that down because they wrote it down before the decision was there.

12             So I'm just trying to understand your logic, your reasoning, and

13     I find that you often give explanations which are contradicted by at

14     least documentary evidence that is put before us, whether true or not

15     but -- so if you say all this happened, you say individual abuse, that

16     could not explain what the witness expressed as their fear, that is, that

17     they were arrested, they were abused, et cetera, because the decision --

18     a misinterpretation of the decision, the decision wasn't there yet.

19     Therefore, I give you an opportunity to come with precise explanations

20     which are in line with what we heard from other sources.

21             I interrupted you because you said -- you started your answer by

22     saying:

23             "All of these things that happened, of course, influenced the

24     decision that was reached and the fear of the Muslims, why they wanted to

25     leave Pale ..."

Page 22196

 1             That is still not an answer to the two inconsistencies I

 2     mentioned to you.  Muslims saying we -- yes.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I speak?  I think - I don't

 4     know if I understood you correctly - but at the very beginning, on the

 5     9th of April, the Muslims stated their requests to leave and they gave

 6     their reasons for doing so.  There was a response from the Crisis Staff

 7     to this document and we believed - I believed - that this was in some way

 8     a completion of that first part.  Later, life, work went on in Pale.

 9     Then a series of events ensued in Pale which happened from that time

10     until the time when the decision was reached.  And I explained that as

11     well.  And I said that after all of these problems that cropped up, that

12     I talked about, on which I was questioned by the Prosecutor, what

13     followed was a debate in the Assembly regarding renewed requests by

14     Muslims individually and collectively to leave Pale.

15             The decision was reached.  After the decision of the 19th, I

16     think it was, the Muslims began to move out.  They had time to think

17     about it, to look at the situation in depth, and then only in July they

18     began to move out.  They were leaving in an organised manner with their

19     own private vehicles, with all of the things that they could carry with

20     them.  And I don't know what else I can say.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Then two short questions.  Is it true that in your

22     statement I do not find anything about Muslims requesting to be able to

23     leave because they were abused, illegally arrested, et cetera, that

24     although the document says so, that you have not mentioned that?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't -- I didn't have that

Page 22197

 1     information.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Was the other document not shown to you in another

 3     case, the request, the request -- the long request, last final paragraph,

 4     you never seen that before?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I saw the first request of the

 6     9th of April.  I don't know whether that request -- I think -- I think

 7     that we resolved a lot of things as we went along and we responded to

 8     that request by a document that's there --

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  I'm asking you about whether I found those reasons:

10     Abuse, being arrested and other things, the reasons why they wanted to

11     leave, whether we find anything about that in your statement?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no, Your Honour.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  That's clear.  That was --

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  -- the only question that remained.  Mr. Traldi --

16     my question.

17             MR. TRALDI:  I do still have a few more, Your Honour.  If we

18     could have P3800.

19        Q.   And, sir, you've just said that the Muslims moved out with their

20     own private vehicles.  So what I'm showing you is a report from the

21     Pale SJB dated 6 July 1992, and it describes this series of convoys.  And

22     looking at the second paragraph first, it says:

23             "On 30 June 1992, 88 Muslim citizens (women, children, and men)

24     were transferred in two buses, escorted by police officers of the

25     Pale SJB ..."

Page 22198

 1             And then it describes the route.  The paragraph below it says:

 2             "On 1 July 1992, 220 citizens were transferred in four buses, on

 3     1 July 1992, 324 citizens in five buses, and on 3 July 1992, 410 citizens

 4     in seven buses, totalling 1.042 citizens."

 5             So the Pale SJB reported that it had conducted this transfer by

 6     bus, not in the Muslims' private vehicles; correct?

 7        A.   Generally, no, but there were cases where there were also cars

 8     along with the buses.

 9             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness be asked to repeat the last

10     sentence, please.

11             MR. TRALDI:

12        Q.   I think the interpreters didn't hear the last sentence of your

13     answer, sir.

14        A.   Generally not -- they couldn't take each and every private

15     vehicle with them, and it's a question whether all of them had their own

16     cars.  But I know that along with some -- with the buses, there were some

17     private vehicles that went in the direction of Sarajevo.

18        Q.   Then I'll just have three more documents for you, one more on

19     this topic.

20             MR. TRALDI:  If we could have 65 ter 03730.  And could we first

21     turn to the second page in the B/C/S.

22        Q.   Do you recognise the signature?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   As whose signature do you recognise it?

25        A.   Mine.

Page 22199

 1        Q.   Now, turning back to the first page, this is a document sent from

 2     the Pale Executive Committee to the Wartime Board of Commissioners,

 3     personally to Ms. Plavsic.  Now, she was a member of the War Commission;

 4     right?

 5        A.   She was a commissioner of the Pale municipality on behalf of the

 6     Presidency.

 7        Q.   And in fact we see - it's now on page 2 in the B/C/S but at the

 8     bottom of the page 1 in the English - that this was copied to the

 9     Presidency of the RS government; correct?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   Now, I apologise to the usher, but if we could go back to page 1

12     again.  In the second paragraph, this refers to the decision from the

13     18th of June, and then it notes:

14             "Muslims started moving out forcefully and wilfully at their own

15     private initiative and discretion and with their own subjective

16     interpretation of the decision ..."

17             That's right, isn't it, that other Muslims had fled Pale before

18     the convoys that we were just discussing?

19        A.   Yes, yes, they did.

20             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honours, I tender 65 ter 03730.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

22             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 03730 receives number P6572,

23     Your Honours.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

25             MR. TRALDI:

Page 22200

 1        Q.   Sir, I want to conclude by very briefly discussing your evidence

 2     about the Muslim municipality you say was established.  That included the

 3     Renovica area; correct?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   And your evidence is that area was never taken over by the VRS;

 6     correct?

 7        A.   No, not the entire territory, no.

 8        Q.   Some parts, however, were; correct?

 9        A.   Yes, because there was a barracks in Renovica.  The soldiers were

10     guarding these barracks until the time that they got all the assets, the

11     equipment, out of it.

12             MR. TRALDI:  Could we have 65 ter 30712.  This is an SRK report

13     from the 14th of October, 1992.

14        Q.   And directing your attention to point 2, I'm just going to read

15     the first sentence:

16             "Our units in Renovica area continued an offensive and liberated

17     Renovica ..."

18             Did I read that correctly?

19        A.   Yes, you did read it out, but I don't have information about the

20     whole of Renovica, that entire area ever being completely liberated.

21     It's possible that this is discussing the actual settlement of Renovica,

22     but there are also other settled places, villages, in the Renovica area

23     and a part also is related to Gorazde.

24        Q.   You'd agree with me, though, I expect, that this does not simply

25     speak of guarding a barracks but of liberating an area; correct?

Page 22201

 1        A.   The Muslims attacked police forces right at the beginning and

 2     killed two policemen and wounded five of them.  Then in that area there

 3     was a conflict, fighting went on, certain lines were established where

 4     fighting was going on in that area.

 5             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honours, I'd tender this document.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 30712 receives number P6573,

 8     Your Honours.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  P6573 is admitted.

10             MR. TRALDI:  And finally, if we could have 65 ter 09822.  This is

11     a document emanating from SJB Visegrad and it's dated the 30th of July,

12     1995.

13        Q.   Now, initially it refers to a number of locations.  I'd just

14     direct your attention to the second point, it's a number of locations

15     including Renovica; correct?

16        A.   This is a document of the 30th of July, 1995.  I wasn't even

17     close to these events and the situation.  I don't even know why you're

18     asking me about this.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  No question is yet put to you, Witness, so don't

20     worry.  Wait for the question.  And if you don't know anything about what

21     Mr. Traldi asks you, then you just tell us.

22             MR. TRALDI:

23        Q.   But you do see the mention of Renovica in the second point;

24     correct?  Zlovrh, Podzeplje, Dzimrije, Sokolovici, Stijenice, Renovica?

25     And I apologise to the witness for my pronunciation.

Page 22202

 1        A.   I see it, yes.  It's mentioned, it's written down, but I don't

 2     know anything else.

 3        Q.   It does read below that:

 4             "All directions are mainly unpopulated and before the war they

 5     were populated by Muslim inhabitants."

 6             Do you see that language?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honours, I tender this document.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

10             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 09822 receives number P6574,

11     Your Honours.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  P6574 is admitted.

13             MR. TRALDI:  And that completes my examination, Your Honours.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Traldi.

15             We had a late start after the break.  Mr. Lukic, could you tell

16     us how much time you would need, approximately, if you have any further

17     questions for the witness.

18             MR. LUKIC:  I cannot tell you at this moment, really.  I was

19     trying to calculate, but I don't think I will finish today.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Then perhaps it would be better to take the

21     break first so that you are better able to organise yourself and that the

22     next witness is informed that his appearance today is not to be expected.

23             MR. LUKIC:  Most probably, yes.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, well, if it's only for two or three minutes,

25     then of course it doesn't make sense to let him wait for that.

Page 22203

 1             Let's take the break first and let's see how matters develop.

 2             Could the witness be escorted out of the courtroom.

 3                           [The witness stands down]

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  We take a break and we resume at 20 minutes to 2.00.

 5                           --- Recess taken at 1.20 p.m.

 6                           --- On resuming at 1.42 p.m.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Whilst we are waiting for the witness to be escorted

 8     into the courtroom, Mr. Lukic, for the next witness if you would need

 9     tomorrow another five or seven minutes, we have to take a break after

10     that because the next witness would require some preparations, technical

11     preparations, in terms of protective measures.  I'm not -- I'm just -- I

12     leave it to that.

13             MR. LUKIC:  We'll see after today's day how much I -- maybe I

14     would know better.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  We'll see.

16                           [The witness takes the stand]

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Cvoro, you'll now be further examined by

18     Mr. Lukic.

19             You may proceed, Mr. Lukic.

20             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

21                           Re-examination by Mr. Lukic:

22        Q.   [Interpretation] Good day once again, Mr. Cvoro.

23        A.   Good day, sir.

24        Q.   We haven't seen each other for a long time, so just refer to me

25     as sir, attorney, but I am attorney Branko Lukic.

Page 22204

 1             You were shown a lot of documents today.

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   So I understand that perhaps this has created confusion with the

 4     Trial Chamber as well as to what came before what, so I'm going to go

 5     through it and recapitulate, look at the times -- timing to see whether

 6     what you are saying makes sense and whether it's contrary to what the

 7     documents show.

 8             I want to begin a few days before the request of the

 9     9th of April, 1992.  Do you remember that on the 6th of April, 1992,

10     Bosnia and Herzegovina broke away from the Socialist Federal Republic of

11     Yugoslavia?

12        A.   Yes, I remember that.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Traldi.

14             MR. TRALDI:  I think the question is leading in its form.

15             MR. LUKIC:  This is re-direct --

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, it is.  At the same time, is there any dispute

17     about it?  It's an -- seems to be an introduction to what then follows.

18     If you really want to --

19             MR. TRALDI: [Overlapping speakers] --

20             JUDGE ORIE:  If you think that it would be inappropriate to lead

21     the witness on the 6th of April as Bosnia and Herzegovina separating from

22     the Socialist Federal Republic, then please tell us.

23             MR. TRALDI:  No, I suppose on that issue --

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Please --

25             MR. TRALDI:  -- Your Honour.

Page 22205

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.

 2             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 3        Q.   [Interpretation] Three days after Bosnia and Herzegovina broke

 4     away from Yugoslavia, on the 9th of April, 1992, thus comes this request

 5     for Muslims to move out from the territory of the municipality of Pale?

 6        A.   Yes, that's when the request came.  I think it was very soon

 7     after the decision to secede.

 8        Q.   On the 11th of April, two days after this request, a decision was

 9     adopted and Muslims were informed that there was no need for them to move

10     out, they didn't have to do that?

11        A.   Yes, that is correct.  I signed the decision and I dispatched it

12     to the city address.

13        Q.   On the 18th of June, 1992, two months and seven days later, a

14     decision was adopted saying that they can move out?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   Let me ask you this first:  On the 9th of April and the

17     11th of April, was there any fighting in Pale?

18        A.   No.

19        Q.   And between these two days, between the 11th of April when the

20     Muslims were told:  You don't have to move out, and the 18th of June,

21     when they were told:  You can move out if you wish, the following events

22     took place and you listed them and I'm going to list them again.

23             On the 3rd of May, 1992, the JNA was attacked in

24     Dobrovoljacka Street?

25        A.   Correct.

Page 22206

 1        Q.   In mid-May, the Serbian settlement of Pofalici in Sarajevo was

 2     attacked?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   After that attack --

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  The list is still clear in our memory, including the

 6     dates, unless you disagree with the dates suggested by Mr. Traldi.

 7             Please proceed.

 8             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 9        Q.   After this attack on Pofalici, did the Serbs from Pofalici come

10     to Pale?

11        A.   The Serbs from Pofalici came to Pale, they were expelled.  They

12     came with no clothes, in their bare feet.  I was woken up by the police

13     in the middle of the night, this was in the middle of the night.  They

14     told me that a large number of Serbs from Pofalici had arrived in Pale.

15     I didn't know what to do at that point, so we opened up the elementary

16     school where we put them up and we provided some initial assistance to

17     them.

18        Q.   Thank you.  On the 22nd of May, what happened in Renovica?

19        A.   Two policemen were killed and five were wounded while they were

20     disarming the citizens of Renovica.

21        Q.   And then on the 4th of June you told us Zlovrh Zepa, 46 soldiers

22     were killed; you told us that after a few days, when these 46 soldiers

23     were being buried, there was another attack at another position which was

24     then taken up already by the RS soldiers, when 12 soldiers were killed?

25        A.   On the second day of the burials there was a strong attack on

Page 22207

 1     Trebevic.  Many people from in front of the church went away then and

 2     they didn't come back.  They went to defend the territory of

 3     Republika Srpska.

 4        Q.   A document was forgotten in this recapitulation of the events and

 5     I will mention it.  I think it's included.

 6             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we please look at D495 in

 7     e-court, please.

 8        Q.   So on the 18th of June, the decision was made that Muslims may

 9     leave Pale municipality in an organised way, and we see a request here

10     dated 22nd June 1992, where a group departure of Muslims is requested,

11     and the listed families are indicated together with their numbers.  So

12     there were more requests, not just one.  This is another one dated

13     22nd June.

14        A.   After that decision was made by the Assembly, many requests

15     started arriving at the public security station and most of the Muslims

16     left for Sarajevo.

17        Q.   When did the organised departure of Muslims from Pale begin?

18        A.   I believe it was in the end of June and beginning of July.

19        Q.   Another document was shown to you.  Just a moment.  There are

20     many of them.

21             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] 65 ter is -- 65 ter 3730 is the

22     number that I have I hope we'll -- no, it's now marked as P6572.  We'll

23     have it on the screen soon.

24        Q.   This is the document that you signed, do you remember?

25        A.   Yes, I remember.  That's from the War Commission.

Page 22208

 1        Q.   In paragraph 2 of this document dated 7 July 1992, you said:

 2             "Contrary to the decision of the Pale Municipal Assembly made at

 3     its session of 18 June 1992, which regulated the issue of changing the

 4     place of residence of non-Serbian residents, Muslims started moving out

 5     in a coerced way and this was done wilfully at some people's own

 6     initiative ..."

 7             Did you mean by this that somebody expelled them from their homes

 8     wilfully or that they left outside of the convoys of their own will?

 9        A.   I don't think anybody drove them out nor did they wilfully leave.

10     They only started interpreting this decision in their own way, as meaning

11     that they had to leave Pale.

12             I'll just give you one example.  My own place of residence, in

13     fact, where I was born, was Bogovici, a bit further away, and some

14     Muslims from Bogovici had come to ask me how to understand this decision.

15     They were not very educated people, village people, and they asked:  Does

16     it mean we have to go?  And I said:  No, that's not what it means.

17     However, the very next day I learned that they too had decided to leave

18     Pale.

19        Q.   Then you say that other problems occurred as a consequence of

20     these departures.  A large number of illegal and criminal actions, the

21     disposal of movable and immovable property, the impossibility of

22     effectively protecting houses and flats that were left unprotected, the

23     impossibility of taking care after -- taking care of the cattle left

24     behind by previous owners.

25        A.   Yes, all these problems really occurred.

Page 22209

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, could I ask one clarification.

 2             This report states that Muslims started moving out in a coerced

 3     way.  What do you mean exactly by that?  Or as it says in the written

 4     English translation, started moving out forcefully, what does that mean?

 5             MR. LUKIC:  I think that we have translation issue here.  I

 6     haven't noticed that.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Could be, but I see that --

 8             MR. LUKIC:  My proposition is that the witness reads the whole

 9     paragraph in B/C/S so it's translated, not reading the text from this

10     translation, but translated --

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, also we have two, we have the interpreters and

12     we have the translation.  As we all know, the interpreters are not

13     supposed to resolve any linguistic issues, but we'll certainly have time

14     until tomorrow to have this portion verified as far as translation is

15     concerned.

16             But if the witness would just read the language in his own and

17     tell us what he meant by that, because I was also puzzled by one of the

18     answers after that which was:  I think no one -- let me literally find

19     it.

20             "No one forced them, but also they did not leave wilfully,"

21     that's ...

22             Could you please tell us exactly what the document says as far as

23     the Muslims leaving?  Read it in your own language and explain it to us

24     and we will meanwhile verify -- yes, the second sentence of the second

25     paragraph we are interested in.

Page 22210

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "Namely, contrary to the decision

 2     of the Municipal Assembly of Pale made at its session of 18 June 1992,

 3     which regulated the issue of change of residence of the non-Serb

 4     population, by private initiative according to subjective interpretation

 5     of the decision and own discretion ..." and then I can't see the

 6     remaining text very well.

 7             MR. LUKIC:  If that paragraph, the second paragraph could be

 8     enlarged.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "... there occurred a forced and

10     self-willed evacuation of the Muslim population which opened up a series

11     of other problems such as a large incidence of illegal and criminal

12     actions ..."

13             What I meant here is private decisions of individuals to

14     interpret the decision in their own way, as they wished.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, I'm just trying to find -- I see the

16     reference to the session of the 18th of June, also then see which

17     regulated the issue or the question of the changing of the place of

18     residence of the non-Serbian population --

19             MR. LUKIC:  It's in the middle of the second-last row of this

20     paragraph.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Muslims started moving out --

22             MR. LUKIC:  "Odluka" is with a capital and after that it says --

23             JUDGE ORIE:  I see the "private initiative and discretion," but

24     the part which appears --

25             MR. LUKIC:  Underneath --

Page 22211

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  One second, please.

 2             MR. LUKIC:  Exactly underneath, initiative.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I see that, but the part -- "Muslims started

 4     moving out forcefully and wilfully" has apparently disappeared entirely

 5     now from what the witness -- let me see, that comes then after that.

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Line 11 and 12 of page 83.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay --

 8             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  The interpreters did not

 9     repeat the written text because it's wrong, as a translation it's wrong.

10     "Forcefully" means something entirely different than "by force."

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then I think that we have to review the

12     translation in detail.

13             Perhaps also then we leave it until tomorrow until we have

14     received a new -- the new translation or the verified translation to ask

15     the witness further.

16             There's no need to answer the question at this moment, Mr. Cvoro.

17     The only thing then what remains is:  To what extent is leaving on your

18     own contrary to the decision?  Why couldn't they leave on their own if

19     they wished to do so?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There was self-willed

21     interpretation of this decision both by Serbs and Muslims, and the

22     Muslims interpreted the decision in their own way, whereas other people

23     also exercised coercion, and we, in the institutions, took steps to

24     prevent that.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, but you -- in this document it reads:

Page 22212

 1             "Contrary to the decision reached by the Pale SO at its session

 2     of the 18th of June ..."

 3             And then you explain what happened, including that they on their

 4     own initiative started leaving.  To what extent is that contrary --

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's right.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  -- contrary -- to what extent is that contrary to

 7     the decision?  Did the decision say:  You may not leave at your own

 8     initiative?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I've already said.  Some

10     people, let's say Serbs, interpreted the decision as meaning that the

11     Muslims should leave their houses.  So they came to these houses and in

12     some way forced the Muslims to leave.  On the other hand, Muslims

13     interpreted the decision as meaning that they had to go, which is not

14     what the decision said.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  That's clear.

16             And what, apart from writing personally to Biljana Plavsic, was

17     done to prevent this?  Did you immediately issue a clear order that

18     everyone should refrain immediately from compelling Muslims to leave and

19     telling Muslims that the order in no way required them to leave?  What

20     did you do in that respect, apart from sending letters which may not have

21     reached the most interested parties, that is, those who forced them out

22     and those who felt that they had to leave?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, we reacted.  We sent a

24     request to the police to take more serious steps on the ground because

25     it's the police who has to enforce these things, and I gave you one

Page 22213

 1     example how I received the Muslims from my own native place, Bogovici,

 2     and the explanation I'd given them.  I'd explained to them that they

 3     didn't have to leave.  It was up to them to decide whether they wished to

 4     go or not.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  You -- your testimony gives the impression that

 6     there was a widespread misunderstanding of the order.  Apart from

 7     instructing the police -- first of all, did you instruct the police in

 8     writing or just orally?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, there are later some written

10     documents concerning police actions.  I believe there is an order of

11     16 July related to this --

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Apparently on the 7th of July the problem has

13     already been noticed.  What did you do at that moment?  Did you give oral

14     instructions to police or written instructions, I would say, before the

15     7th of July?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, you see, we sent a report to

17     the commissioner, Biljana Plavsic, and she --

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Cvoro, first of all, my question was:  What did

19     you do apart from sending something to Madam Plavsic?  And my question

20     simply was, where you told us that you sent a request to the police,

21     whether it was in writing or whether it was oral?  That's my question.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't remember whether we put

23     anything in writing, but I'm certain we told them verbally.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, my next question was:  What did you do in a

25     more public way to make sure that everyone would interpret the order

Page 22214

 1     correctly, where you had found that many of them had misunderstood it?

 2     Did you make a public announcement or did you -- did you do anything in

 3     that respect?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think we went to the Muslims and

 5     talked to them about this.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  And what about the Serbs who had misinterpreted

 7     the --

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's where the police acted

 9     quickly and detained some people.  I believe they did react.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  How many people did they detain and do you know who

11     they detained?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't have that information.  The

13     police have their own line of reporting to the minister and other

14     institutions along their own vertical line.  They do it as part of their

15     regular work.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, if there would be any documentary

17     evidence in that respect that might further strengthen the evidence of

18     the witness, the Chamber would be glad to receive such documentary

19     evidence.

20             MR. LUKIC:  I would be glad to find some.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I can imagine.  Yes, please proceed.

22             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

23        Q.   [Interpretation] In this document before you on the screen, you

24     are complaining that there is no co-ordination between the police and

25     their work and the Executive Board of the Municipal Assembly?

Page 22215

 1        A.   Yes, because we had no jurisdiction over the police.

 2        Q.   These problems, that it was impossible to look after the housing

 3     and the cattle, was that in fact the competence of the Executive Board?

 4        A.   Yes, it was.

 5        Q.   Another issue listed here is the issue of disposing of the

 6     movable and immovable property left behind by previous owners.  During

 7     your tenure as member of the Executive Board, was there any change of

 8     ownership from a Muslim owner to a Serb resident of Pale?

 9        A.   The Serbs and the Muslims in Pale knew each other very well.

10     Many of them made contracts between themselves and swapped property in

11     order to protect it.  The Serbs gave them the keys to the homes they had

12     left behind in Sarajevo and the Muslims from Pale went to those houses

13     and flats in Sarajevo.  The municipality did not have to verify the

14     authenticity of these contracts, but they did verify the signatures on

15     these contracts.

16        Q.   Was the ownership transferred during the war?

17        A.   No, I believe there was no transfer of ownership.

18        Q.   There was mention of telephone numbers that were switched off and

19     taken over.  You had a telephone at your own home?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   What happened with it?

22        A.   They told me it had to be taken away from me for the needs of the

23     army.  I didn't have a telephone at home, and even at the office I had to

24     give up one of the telephone numbers there for the needs of other

25     institutions.

Page 22216

 1             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Let's see P6562.

 2        Q.   It has been shown to you already today.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, I'm looking at the clock.

 4             MR. LUKIC:  We can break now, but I will have a lot since

 5     15 documents were introduced during the cross-examination.  So I will

 6     have to open some of them and discuss them with the witness.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes --

 8             MR. LUKIC:  I think it's --

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  -- that's understandable.  And that would take you

10     approximately?

11             MR. LUKIC:  Less than first session.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Less than first session.

13             MR. LUKIC:  I'll try to condense it tonight.  When I sit, maybe I

14     can condense my questions.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then we might take an early break, then,

16     tomorrow and during the first break have the preparations for the next

17     witness be ready.

18             Mr. Cvoro, we will certainly conclude tomorrow, but not today.

19     Therefore, I instruct you again that you should not speak or communicate

20     with whomever about your testimony, whether already given or still to be

21     given, and we would like to see you back tomorrow morning, 9.30, in this

22     same courtroom.  And we hope that we conclude within approximately

23     one hour.  You may follow the usher.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

25                           [The witness stands down]

Page 22217

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  We adjourn for the day and we'll resume tomorrow,

 2     Thursday, the 5th of June, 9.30 in the morning, in this same

 3     courtroom, I.

 4                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.16 p.m.,

 5                           to be reconvened on Thursday, the 5th day of

 6                           June, 2014, at 9.30 a.m.