1 Tuesday, 25 May 2004

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.01 a.m.

6 JUDGE LIU: Call the case please, Mr. Court Deputy.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is Case Number

8 IT-02-60-T, the Prosecutor versus Vidoje Blagojevic and Dragan Jokic.

9 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

10 Good morning, ladies and gentlemen.

11 Good morning, Witness. Did you have a good rest?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

13 JUDGE LIU: Are you ready to start?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

15 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. We won't keep you long today.

16 Well, Mr. Shin, any cross-examination?

17 MR. SHIN: Yes, Mr. President. Thank you.

18 WITNESS: MILE JANJIC [Resumed]

19 [Witness answered through interpreter]

20 Cross-examined by Mr. Shin:

21 Q. Good morning, Mr. Janjic.

22 A. Good morning.

23 Q. I'd like to begin by asking you some questions about the 12th of

24 July when you were gathered with some other military policemen in front of

25 the military police building, which is in front of the Bratunac Brigade

1 headquarters. Now, we've heard from one of the military policemen who

2 went into Potocari on that day that he had been ordered to go into

3 Potocari and secure buses. Was that one of the orders that you had

4 received?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Do you know if any of the other military policemen, any of your

7 colleagues, had received that order?

8 A. No.

9 Q. I'm sorry. You don't know whether they have or you -- you're

10 saying that they didn't receive that order, that you know they didn't?

11 A. I wish to say that I don't know.

12 Q. Thank you. We've also heard that this military policeman had been

13 told -- I'm sorry. There's apparently something wrong with this mike. Is

14 that okay?

15 We've also been told that that military policeman was told when

16 issued that order there would be other people from the Bratunac Brigade,

17 apart from the military police, in Potocari. Were you told anything like

18 that?

19 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour.

20 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

21 MR. KARNAVAS: Could we have a name of the police officer because

22 I take it the police officer has testified, at least from the flavour of

23 the questions. So if we could have a name so we can double-check the bona

24 fides of this particular assertion.

25 JUDGE LIU: Well, generally speaking, it's not necessary. But if

1 you request, Mr. Shin, could you provide the name to this witness.

2 MR. SHIN: Certainly. The witness is Mr. Radenko Zaric and the

3 precise page number for the point I just raised. I'm not sure what the

4 first few ERN numbers are but the last four are 9881, which should be

5 adequate to identify the specific page.

6 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

7 MR. SHIN: Thank you, Mr. President.

8 Q. Mr. Janjic, should I repeat that question or are you able to

9 answer?

10 A. Would you please repeat your question.

11 Q. When you were given your orders at the MP building, were you told

12 that there would be other people from the Bratunac Brigade there, apart

13 from the military police, in Potocari?

14 A. Orders were not received at that moment in terms of what should be

15 done. We were called in to report in order to receive orders as to what

16 we would do afterwards. As I said yesterday, it was a telephone call; it

17 was not an order.

18 Q. But in any case, you don't -- or you're saying you weren't told

19 that there would be other people, not as an order but just as information,

20 that there would be other people from the Bratunac Brigade in Potocari on

21 that day?

22 A. No.

23 Q. When you got to Potocari on that day or through the course of

24 let's say the 12th of July, did you see other people from the Bratunac

25 Brigade present there?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Do you know what units of the Bratunac Brigade they were from?

3 A. I don't know about that. It was very brief. I explained that

4 yesterday. Zuti Most, Potocari. At one point in time, I did notice some

5 members of the Bratunac Brigade. I don't know exactly which unit, but I

6 do know that they are from the Bratunac Brigade; that I know for sure.

7 But then after that, I didn't see them again. So I don't know anything

8 about that.

9 Q. Did you see anyone from the Bratunac Brigade providing security in

10 the area?

11 A. No.

12 Q. And you yourself, you were occupied in this counting process on

13 the 12th of July. Is that correct? Let me be clear: Were there any

14 other tasks you did on the 12th of July, apart from counting?

15 A. Only the counting.

16 Q. And that would be true for the 13th of July as well, just the

17 counting?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Now, you told us that you had seen the separation of the men from

20 the women and children.

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And you explained that you didn't see any abuse in that process.

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Just so we're clear, we've heard evidence here that -- from a

25 member of the DutchBat, that in the process of the separation on one

1 occasion, there was a boy who was grabbed by the throat by -- I'm sorry,

2 we're having some trouble with this mike. It's apparently the water. Is

3 that okay?

4 I'm sorry. I'll start my question again. We've heard evidence

5 here from a member of the Dutch Battalion there that there were abuses in

6 the separation process, and one example was of a boy who was grabbed by

7 the throat as a means of pulling him away from the rest of the refugees.

8 Did you see anything like that?

9 A. I did not see any such thing, but that is not to say that I am

10 asserting that no such thing ever happened.

11 Q. And in the course of the separations, did you hear -- did you hear

12 any emotional outbursts? Did you hear any women crying?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And do you remember why they were crying?

15 A. Well, basically it was because they were leaving their homes,

16 going to something quite uncertain. Most of them were not from Srebrenica

17 originally, from the pre-war municipality of Srebrenica. Most of them had

18 come from Bratunac and other places. So this hurt them. They were

19 leaving their homes yet again and they didn't know where they were going.

20 Q. Okay. But I was asking about the separation process.

21 MR. KARNAVAS: That's not true, Your Honour. That's not what he

22 asked. Had he asked specifically. Earlier he talked about the

23 separation. So to be fair to the gentleman, he needs to include that in.

24 MR. SHIN: I'm sorry, Your Honour. The question I asked exactly

25 says: "In the course of the separations.". I'm not quite sure what was

1 unclear to Mr. Karnavas.

2 JUDGE LIU: Yes, I think he is still within the context.

3 You may proceed.

4 MR. SHIN: Thank you.

5 Q. Mr. Janjic, I was asking about in the course of the separations,

6 did you hear any women crying because their husbands were being pulled

7 away or because their sons were being pulled away?

8 A. I understand the question now. The answer I gave before was the

9 way I had understood it then, so my answer now is no. I did not hear that

10 they were pointing out that it was on account of that.

11 Q. Okay. You didn't hear that, but did you see women crying as

12 men -- as their husbands, their brothers, or their children were being

13 pulled away from them? Did you see that? You saw the separation process,

14 or at least part of it.

15 A. As I mentioned yesterday, the separation took place about a

16 hundred or 150 metres away from me, so I saw the process evolve. The men

17 were going in the opposite direction, and the women went in my direction.

18 So it's not that I could see the tears, see the emotions.

19 Q. And you saw because they were, I think, coming towards you, you

20 saw the men who had been separated. Right?

21 A. I don't understand the question.

22 Q. Let me put it this way: You saw that separate group of men on the

23 other side of the road, the men who had been separated. Right?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Did you see among them old men, men as old as 60 or 65? We've

1 heard evidence that there were men that old in that group.

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And did you see men or perhaps children as young as 14 or 15 in

4 that group?

5 A. Not that, no.

6 Q. We've heard evidence of that as well.

7 Did you see any men in that group who were physically disabled?

8 A. I don't know what you mean when you say "disabled." Disabled

9 people, as far as I know, are people in wheelchairs and people who cannot

10 walk, who have another obvious disability. I could not see whether

11 somebody had some kind of disability. The answer is that I did not see

12 anyone with -- in a wheelchair, with a prosthesis or something like that.

13 Q. Okay. That was my question. So, you didn't see any of that.

14 Could you see anyone that, as far as you could tell, was mentally

15 handicapped among that group of men?

16 A. No. I didn't notice any such thing.

17 Q. Now, from what you could see of the separation process, did you

18 see any DutchBat soldiers in that area or during that separation process?

19 Could you see them from where you were?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Did you see them trying to interfere with the separation, in

22 particular in the cases where the very old or the very young were being

23 taken away?

24 A. As far as these UNPROFOR soldiers are concerned and the fact that

25 they were going in the direction where these people were going, so it was

1 away from me, as far as they're concerned, I could see that they were

2 carrying stretchers, that they were transporting some people on these

3 stretchers, that they were carrying water, water most often. I could not

4 notice any other details. I didn't really notice anything.

5 Q. Okay. Just so we're clear, did you see any DutchBat soldiers

6 trying to prevent a man or a boy being taken away from their family?

7 A. I did not notice.

8 Q. At any point did you see anyone from the Dutch Battalion trying to

9 get onto the buses that the men were being put on?

10 A. No.

11 Q. So then you wouldn't be aware if any of them had been dissuaded

12 from that at gunpoint?

13 A. Well, I didn't see any such thing. I didn't notice any such

14 thing. Now, whether such things happened or not is not something I can

15 claim at this stage because I could not keep the entire situation under

16 control.

17 Q. So the separation process you saw from where you were, there were

18 no beatings of men in the process?

19 A. No.

20 Q. No one was kicked in that process?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Now, I'd like to move to a slightly later point in time, and

23 perhaps we could start by taking a look at a short video clip.

24 MR. SHIN: I'm sorry, Your Honour, just one moment while I get the

25 exhibit number.

1 This is from Prosecution Exhibit P21. And we'll be playing it

2 from Sanction.

3 [Videotape played]

4 MR. SHIN: I'll just wait a minute for the lights. Thank you.

5 Q. Does that -- that scene that you saw on the video clip, does that

6 look familiar to you? Do you remember that?

7 A. To tell you the truth, I don't even know what I saw. I saw the

8 luggage I mentioned yesterday in front of the gate, the thing I mentioned

9 yesterday. If I saw that right, it was just very brief. And the piles of

10 rucksacks and things like that that I referred to yesterday around the

11 gate. I think that that's it.

12 Q. Okay. I'm sorry, just before we continue on this, so we're clear,

13 the separations that you saw on the 12th and the 13th of July you didn't

14 see a single incident of abuse? Not a single person being hit? Not a

15 single person being kicked? Is that what you're saying?

16 A. I never claimed that no one had ever been kicked or hit with a

17 hand. You asked me whether I saw something like that; I did not.

18 Q. Thank you. That's exactly what my question was, in fact.

19 Did you ever hear of anyone being beaten or kicked then?

20 A. No.

21 Q. You never heard about it then; you never heard about it later?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Now, I showed you the video clip because you explained to us

24 yesterday about this place where the men were being held, and as you just

25 explained now the situation with the luggage. You mentioned as well --

1 you told us yesterday that your understanding was that the luggage was

2 being left there for security reasons. Is that right?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Now, can you remind us: How far were you from where those men

5 were in that building, in the yard of that building?

6 A. I've already said yesterday that it was about 100 metres away from

7 me, this gate that we saw just now, perhaps even a bit more than that.

8 And the yard extends to the place where I stood. So it's on the other

9 side of the yard, the gate that they went through and where they left

10 those things.

11 Q. So the yard extended up to where you were. So were you able to

12 see the faces of some of the men being held there?

13 A. At the moment when the yard was filled -- I mean, as it was

14 getting filled, the people were getting closer and closer to me, very

15 close to me. So there was only the fence that separated us. I cannot

16 tell you exactly what the distance involved was, a couple of metres, up to

17 10 metres.

18 Q. So the men who were closest to you when you were -- when you saw

19 them, how did they look to you? Would you say that they were scared?

20 A. I could not tell. I can't really give an answer to that.

21 Q. Well, you did tell us yesterday that there was a point when you

22 heard people in the yard saying things like: Why are you separating us?

23 Maybe you are about to kill us. Was that an indication to you, perhaps,

24 that these men were scared?

25 A. If I understood you correctly, you are asking me what I could see

1 in those people's faces. As for the shouting, that happened afterwards

2 and I think that I explained that in greater detail yesterday. My

3 understanding was that at that moment what my conclusion was, judging by

4 people's faces and the expressions on their faces.

5 Q. Generally speaking, Mr. Janjic, I'm asking about what you saw and

6 what your understanding of the situation was, because we've had plenty of

7 other evidence about these events. So I'm asking you, even though it

8 happened later, did you hear comments such as: Are you about to kill us?

9 Did that help you understand what the state of mind was, as far as you

10 could see, of these men?

11 A. I have conveyed their words. I can repeat those words, but then

12 it is for you to interpret it. Try to put yourself in their position and

13 understand how they felt. What I can do is repeat what I have already

14 said.

15 Q. And, Mr. Janjic, I'm asking you now to interpret those words as

16 you understood them, as you understood them.

17 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

18 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour. Yesterday when I asked the gentleman

19 to interpret the words of Colonel Jankovic where he stated that his belief

20 was that they should be shown to the -- the media should be shown how well

21 they were treated, to get the gentleman to tell us that at least

22 Colonel Jankovic's state of mind was that nothing was going to happen to

23 anybody, I got an objection from the gentleman. Now today he wants to

24 have this gentleman interpret somebody else's state of mind. So if it

25 wasn't -- if the objection was sustained yesterday, it should be sustained

1 today. If the gentleman thought he was incapable of reading

2 Colonel Jankovic's state of mind --

3 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Karnavas, I think you passed the limits at

4 this moment.

5 MR. KARNAVAS: Well, I think I'm right on the line, Your Honour.

6 JUDGE LIU: I think the Prosecution is just asking about the

7 understanding of this witness, his personal understanding.

8 MR. KARNAVAS: All right. Very well, Your Honour.

9 JUDGE LIU: You may proceed, Mr. Shin.

10 MR. SHIN: Very well.

11 Q. When you heard these words: "Why are you separating us? Maybe

12 you're about to kill us?", you described that as some sort of mutiny. Is

13 that right? I think those were your exact words: Some sort of a mutiny.

14 A. Yes, some reactions, some revolt, rebellion.

15 Q. And that's when Colonel Jankovic spoke to them and told them that

16 they would be transported?

17 A. He said: It has already been said. Maybe you've already heard

18 about this. So he meant that somebody had already said something and

19 believed that they had heard it, too, that there would be no problem, that

20 they would meet up with their families. Those were his words. That's

21 what I said yesterday.

22 Q. Just moving forward now to the next day, the same place, that

23 building in the yard where the men are being held. When you arrived on

24 the 13th of July, the yard was now empty you said. Did you see whether

25 the luggage was still in the yard?

1 A. In front of the yard there was some luggage scattered about, not

2 too much of it. At the moment when it was being put there, I should

3 say -- well, yes, there was. Yes.

4 Q. So there was still luggage. Would it be fair to say that there

5 was still luggage piled up by the gate?

6 I'm sorry, you're nodding. If you could please just say yes or no

7 for the record.

8 A. I didn't notice anything.

9 Q. I'm not sure if we misunderstood each other because you just said

10 something about luggage. And my question to you is: Is it fair to say

11 that there was still luggage piled up by the gate of this yard on the

12 morning of the 13th of July, when you got there?

13 A. I didn't understand what you meant when you said "piled." I

14 thought you meant something organised but, you know, there was scattered

15 luggage where women had passed by, they had thrown their bags away, also

16 by the canals. I'm not going into that whether people had one, two, or

17 three bags, but they were scattered about.

18 Q. Let's try to make this simple then. You told us that there was

19 luggage left by the men - you thought it was for security reasons - by the

20 gate of that yard on the 12th of July. Was that luggage still there when

21 you returned on the 13th of July?

22 A. I did not observe.

23 Q. You mentioned that, maybe not in the context of that yard exactly,

24 but perhaps in the yard, other places, that the women -- that there were

25 bags that you thought the women had left. Did you think that the women

1 had thrown these bags away. Is that what you were saying? And please

2 correct me if I'm wrong.

3 MR. KARNAVAS: Objection. It calls for speculation, Your Honour.

4 He's asking the gentleman to comment on what he thinks the women were

5 doing. It's speculative.

6 MR. SHIN: Mr. President, the gentleman has told us that "there

7 was scattered luggage where women had passed by. They had thrown their

8 bags away."

9 So I'm just asking a follow-up question on that, what the witness

10 himself has said.

11 JUDGE LIU: Yes, there may be some relations between the two. You

12 may proceed, Mr. Shin.

13 MR. SHIN: Very well.

14 Q. So your understanding is that these bags that were scattered

15 about, they were thrown away by the women?

16 A. Well, you're asking me to speculate. I told you: There were

17 some, not many. There were some along the road. There were some in the

18 ditch. All sorts of water-bottles, all sort of weights. It was like a

19 dump. And if you want a precise answer, if I understood you correctly at

20 all, whether somebody grabbed bags from their shoulders, telling them this

21 they couldn't carry anything, the answer is no.

22 Q. You didn't see anything like that on the 12th? You didn't see

23 anything like that on the 13th?

24 A. No.

25 Q. We've heard evidence that in addition to the luggage being left

1 where the men were, that -- where the men were being held, there were also

2 documentation that was left in the yard, ID cards, passports. Did you see

3 any of that?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Did you see anyone writing down the names of the male detainees?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Did you ever see a list of them, the male detainees, at any point?

8 A. No, no.

9 Q. Thank you, Mr. Janjic. I'd like to move to a slightly different

10 area. Now, you explained yesterday when you went down to Potocari on the

11 12th of July, that you went down in what you called the first group and

12 that there were 10 or 15 military policemen. Just so we understand, how

13 many military policemen were given this assignment on the 12th of July to

14 go into Potocari?

15 A. In that phone call, the police platoon was asked to come to the

16 Zuti Most and take over. I came, passing by the petrol station, to the

17 Zuti Most, which is yellow bridge. I described my meeting with Nikolic at

18 the checkpoint. The trip by that vehicle to Potocari, after which the

19 vehicle went back to pick up other people. And Nikolic, after giving an

20 assignment to the first group, disappeared. The vehicle was already gone,

21 and whether Nikolic met up with other groups and gave them some other

22 assignments, I don't know. I can only tell you about the assignments

23 given to the first group; for that, I was an eyewitness. I cannot

24 speculate about other assignments.

25 Q. Mr. Janjic, I'm not asking you to speculate. I'm asking you

1 whether apart from those 10 to 15 military police officers there were

2 other military police officers who went into Potocari on that day. Do you

3 know that?

4 A. No, no.

5 Q. Now, you spent all of the 12th and all of the 13th in this

6 counting process, and you mentioned that some other military policemen

7 were involved in as well. How many military policemen were involved in

8 this counting process, all 10 or 15?

9 A. I think I already explained that. Do you want me to repeat? Do

10 we have time for that?

11 Q. Maybe if you could just answer the question, we could move on

12 quickly past this. Were all of you involved in the counting or just some

13 of you?

14 A. I was there. There were other members of the military police.

15 For a while they stayed, and then they left to take up another assignment.

16 In the end, I was left there alone.

17 Q. So if I understand you correctly, at some point all of you were

18 involved in the counting process, and then at some point you were the only

19 one involved in the counting process?

20 MR. KARNAVAS: Objection.

21 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

22 MR. KARNAVAS: The gentleman neither stated yesterday nor today.

23 Yesterday he was very clear. So either allow the gentleman to restate

24 what he said yesterday, since clearly, you know, they don't like the

25 answer. Or be fair to the gentleman. But he never stated that all of

1 them were involved in the counting, and I believe Mr. Shin had overnight

2 to look at the transcript and has the transcript, so he knows exactly what

3 the gentleman said yesterday.

4 JUDGE LIU: Well, I believe that Mr. Shin is just asking a

5 question to clarify something from the answer of this witness. Let us

6 proceed. I think the witness could answer by yes or no.

7 MR. KARNAVAS: I'm sure the witness can answer by yes or no,

8 Your Honour. I have no problem, and I don't want to debate the point.

9 But Mr. Shin has the transcript and he knows what the gentleman stated.

10 And the gentleman never stated that all of them. And it appears now that

11 he doesn't like the answer and is trying to trick the witness.

12 MR. SHIN: Mr. President, that is entirely uncalled for. I was

13 simply asking this witness a question. There is absolutely no reason to

14 argue whether I was happy or unhappy with this question; I'm simply

15 clarifying something from yesterday.

16 JUDGE LIU: Yes, you may proceed.

17 MR. SHIN: Thank you.

18 And just for the record, I would note that the witness did in fact

19 respond to the question with a "yes," although it doesn't appear on the

20 transcript. So I'll ask the question again.

21 Q. Mr. Janjic, and you can explain further if necessary, at some

22 point were all 10 or 15 of this group involved in the counting and then at

23 some point there was just you involved in the counting. Is that what

24 you're saying?

25 A. At the moment when I received my assignment from Colonel Jankovic,

1 I was involved and others, those who happened to be there at the moment,

2 we counted the people who were getting into the buses. That lasted for an

3 hour or two. After that, most of the other members received another

4 assignment left by that vehicle in another direction, and I was left alone

5 to continue the counting. They were there only for a while to help me in

6 the counting. That's what I explained before.

7 Q. Okay. And just to clarify, very specifically, you say: You and

8 others were involved in the counting. When you say "others," do you mean

9 all the others?

10 A. I was talking about the first group of policemen, including me.

11 Call it my group. We were there. The first group did the counting. After

12 a while, most of my colleagues were sent elsewhere and I and a couple of

13 other men were left to continue the counting.

14 Q. So in fact it wasn't just you left with the counting; it was you

15 and a couple of other policemen from your group? I'm not -- this isn't

16 meant to be complicated. I'm just trying to clarify something you told us

17 yesterday.

18 A. Yes. In the end I was left alone with only a couple of other

19 policemen from my group.

20 Q. Now, this counting process, you explained to us yesterday you

21 started it one way, and then you devised and proposed to Colonel Jankovic

22 a different way of doing the counting. Just a question on that first

23 method that you were using. Just so we're clear, in that first method,

24 were you counting individual person by individual person? Is that what

25 you were doing?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And you found that difficult, so the second method you were doing

3 you were counting vehicle by vehicle and then multiplying by the average

4 number of people who could be in any given vehicle. Is that correct?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. So the first counting system was an exact count, and the second

7 count is actually an approximate count. Is that right?

8 A. I cannot be 100 per cent sure, even about the first system, that

9 it was right and accurate if we go into detail.

10 Q. Sorry. I'm speaking before the interpretation is complete.

11 But the second counting in any case was an approximate counting

12 system. That's fair, isn't it?

13 A. Very approximate, but fairly accurate.

14 Q. Now, how did you know what the average number of people who could

15 fit on any given vehicle was? How did you know that?

16 A. Well, we knew because in the previous count we counted every

17 vehicle, including ten buses, five or six trucks, and always the number

18 was the same with a margin of difference of five to six people, never more

19 than ten.

20 Q. Now, from time to time you would go, as you explained to

21 Colonel Jankovic, and give him a figure for the number of people you had

22 counted. Is that correct?

23 A. Yes. At the moment while we were waiting for the vehicles when

24 the space in front of us was clear, when we had no other jobs to do, when

25 the trucks were just arriving and getting parked.

1 Q. On these occasions -- well, approximately how many times do you

2 think you went to Colonel Jankovic to tell him whatever figure you had?

3 A. I cannot be certain. Not during every break, but after every 10

4 or 15 -- couple of times during the day.

5 Q. Sorry. I'll wait until the interpretation ends before continuing.

6 On any of these occasions, did Colonel Jankovic tell you to do

7 something, something different in response to what you told him the number

8 was?

9 A. Do you mean a specific date?

10 Q. Either the 12th or the 13th you would give him the number. On

11 hearing the number, would he tell you to do something different or change

12 your instructions in any way?

13 A. No. I just mentioned one comment concerning the figures. That

14 was on the morning of the 13th. I mentioned that member of the MUP who

15 was also giving him numbers. And at that point, he suggested that we

16 should be more careful about the figures, that they should match, that we

17 should be more serious in doing our job.

18 Q. So would it be fair to say that Colonel Jankovic actually -- he

19 didn't really respond to the numbers you were giving him, he just -- you

20 reported to him and that was it?

21 A. What do you mean he didn't really respond?

22 Q. He didn't tell you -- he didn't give you any orders as a result of

23 the numbers provided to him?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Now, you spent all day on the 12th of July, all day on the 13th of

1 July in this counting process. You must have asked him at some point what

2 the purpose of these numbers were?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Now, you mentioned that for the first day the final figure was

5 9.000 and then some hundreds. You also mentioned that -- I believe you

6 mentioned that you counted the men on both days as well. How many men did

7 you count on that first day, if you can recall?

8 A. I don't think you actually followed what I was saying yesterday.

9 I never counted the men.

10 Q. I'm sorry --

11 A. I -- or do you mean the women? Who do you mean? I was counting

12 buses. I think I was clear enough.

13 Q. Yes. Let me rephrase. You counted the number of buses with --

14 after you changed your counting system, you counted the number of buses

15 with men on them?

16 A. Buses, yes. I said there were 10 or 15 buses, between 10 and 15

17 on the first day, if you're asking me about the first day.

18 Q. So to come up with a total number of men from that first day,

19 using your system you just multiplied the number of buses by the average

20 number of men that a bus could take. Correct?

21 A. We knew the average number that could fit into a bus or a truck as

22 of that morning. I didn't need to calculate the average throughout the

23 day. We would just mark the number of buses and multiply it with the

24 average of passengers that fitted into a bus. So 10 or 15 multiplied by

25 the average.

1 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Shin, I think there is still something that

2 is unclear, at least to my mind. Who are on those buses, women or men?

3 MR. SHIN:

4 Q. Mr. Janjic, I'm asking now just about the buses with men on them.

5 And with this process, this system that you explained, on the first day

6 how many men would you calculate left on buses?

7 A. There were 10 to 15 buses.

8 Q. Okay. And what was the average number of people per bus? And I'm

9 just talking about the men now.

10 A. The average number of people that could fit into buses, trucks,

11 and the rest I cannot remember. I knew it then, but I can no longer

12 recall it. Because there were two types of trucks, two types of buses --

13 in fact, there was one type of truck -- one type of bus and two types of

14 trucks.

15 Q. Well, on that first day you said there were 10 to 15 buses. Now,

16 isn't it right that a bus can take approximately 50 people?

17 A. Well, I cannot be certain about the figure, but I'm certain that

18 there were more than 50 people per bus.

19 Q. Thank you. On the second day, just the men now, how many buses

20 were there?

21 A. I cannot tell you anything about the second day, because if you

22 followed my testimony, starting from noon, one series of buses started to

23 leave, then a second series of buses. It was not like the first day.

24 From noon onwards, buses started going back and forth. It was not like on

25 the first day. They were making round trips on the second day.

1 Q. Okay. Let's turn to this man from the MUP you just -- you

2 mentioned a short while ago who was also counting. Now, was he part of

3 your team as well? Was he telling you the figures he was coming with up?

4 A. No. He did not tell me anything and he was not a part of our

5 team; that much is certain.

6 Q. But you did compare occasionally the numbers he was coming up with

7 and the numbers that you were coming up with?

8 A. I did never mention that I compared my numbers with his.

9 Q. I'm sorry. I thought you said that he came to you and said your

10 numbers needed to be more precise, which sounds to me like there was a

11 comparison of numbers.

12 A. That was a comment made my Colonel Jankovic; that's what I

13 explained a moment ago. On the morning of the 13th, that policeman was

14 close to Colonel Jankovic. I could not overhear their conversation. But

15 when I reported to Colonel Jankovic with my first numbers, he said that we

16 need to be more accurate. And I am still not sure whether he meant me or

17 him.

18 Q. Now, you say that you don't remember the exact number of buses

19 that left on the 13th of July. Do you remember approximately how many bus

20 loads left on that day, just approximately?

21 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour.

22 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

23 MR. KARNAVAS: Thank you. The question was asked and answered

24 several times. He gave a detailed answer saying that the buses were

25 turning around. Now he's asking the gentleman to guess. He already

1 answered no, but I would appreciate if the Prosecutor would stop asking

2 the witness to just guess at figures. Now, if he wants to ask him what

3 the overall figure at the end of the day, and then he can come up with

4 some kind of a figure, that's fine.

5 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Shin, I think this question is asked.

6 MR. SHIN: Okay. I'll move on, Mr. President.

7 Q. Now, Mr. Janjic, you testified on the 12th of July in Potocari, a

8 Pinzgauer arrived and part of the military policemen got into that.

9 Approximately how many men was that?

10 A. I cannot be precise. The Pinzgauer was full, so it was not one or

11 two men, it was more.

12 Q. And how many men can a Pinzgauer carry?

13 A. I cannot specify. I believe five, six, seven men can fit,

14 certainly, but I'm not sure. Because it is a combat vehicle. It carries

15 this weapon, so you need the gunner, the crew. I really don't want to go

16 into any estimates. There is the driver, the driver's assistant.

17 Q. I think your answer will suffice.

18 Now, you said that you did not know where they went. Did you find

19 out later where that vehicle had gone?

20 A. Only from what they told me.

21 Q. And what did they tell you?

22 A. They said they had been on a mission, they were accompanying

23 General Mladic to some positions around Jogor [phoen], that is a position

24 that I never visited -- Viogor, in fact, Viogor. It is the municipality

25 of Srebrenica.

1 Q. I'd like to turn now to your task on the evening of the 13th of

2 July, which was guarding these buses in Bratunac. Now, you explained to

3 us that you were guarding three buses and a truck during that evening,

4 during that night. Did you at any point exchange any words with the

5 people on the bus? I mean, you're from Bratunac and they might have been

6 from the region.

7 A. I did exchange some words, but not in terms of introducing myself

8 to him or finding out about him. It was a very small cramped space, the

9 door was closed, nobody was allowed to come in or out. They were asking

10 for things kindly. They were not hysterical. They were asking for water.

11 We give -- gave them water. We found two buckets, two containers of 10 to

12 15 litres each. And my colleague and I gave this to them. After

13 midnight, because we were sitting opposite the bakery, which was working

14 all night, we got hold of a couple of loaves of bread and we gave that to

15 them through the window. That was all the contact we had with them. We

16 did not tell each other our names. They didn't look for that either.

17 Q. Now, you didn't at any point check for the IDs of this people, did

18 you?

19 A. No.

20 Q. You didn't at any point have a list of the detainees on that, did

21 you, detainees on those buses?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Now, I'd like to show you a map of Bratunac, and this is

24 Prosecution Exhibit 12.1.

25 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour.

1 JUDGE LIU: Yes, please.

2 MR. KARNAVAS: The map itself has --

3 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for Mr. Karnavas, please.

4 MR. KARNAVAS: The map already notes places, so it's not just a

5 blank map. So they're already somehow -- and other words, through other

6 witnesses have placed who is -- you know, what is where. So I would like

7 to know what the purpose is of showing him the map, because if they're

8 trying to get him to identify a place which is already designated on the

9 map, then clearly it's suggestive.

10 JUDGE LIU: Well, I believe that this witness is from that area,

11 so that will make no difference if some buildings were marked or not. We

12 are testing the credibility of this witness concerning the location. But

13 it will depend on -- I haven't seen this map yet, but it depends on what

14 kind of marks are there.

15 Could we have it.

16 MR. SHIN: Mr. President, it's an aerial of the town of Bratunac

17 now. There are basic dates and basic places which we freely have been

18 making reference to, both the Prosecution and the Defence. If the witness

19 disagrees with the identification of any particular building, he's of

20 course free to say so.

21 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

22 Could we have that map put on the ELMO, please.

23 MR. SHIN:

24 Q. Now, Mr. Janjic, this is an aerial of the town of Bratunac. Are

25 you able to locate some of the places that you've mentioned on there? I'm

1 going to ask you now: With this map, are you able to identify where those

2 three buses and truck were that you were guarding on the night of the 13th

3 of July?

4 A. Even if I can help you, I would need some time to find my way here

5 and to see what this is all about.

6 Q. Please go ahead and take a minute to orient yourself. If you're

7 not able to orient yourself, please indicate that as well and I'll just go

8 ahead with the question.

9 A. Yes. It's a bit easier now. I can find my way now.

10 Q. Is that -- you're pointing now to where the buses and trucks were?

11 A. I wasn't showing anything. I was just keeping my hands there for

12 no reason.

13 Q. Are you able to find where the buses and trucks were or not?

14 A. I can find the place where I was, where I was at the time, by

15 those buses.

16 Q. Would you point that out, please.

17 A. It's across the street from the police station, 10 or 15 metres

18 away.

19 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters kindly ask the witness to

20 repeat his question. It's hard to understand what he's saying.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's around the middle of the road,

22 and then the police station is there and the Vuk Karadzic school is there.

23 And then from the police station, about 20 or 30 metres into the street.

24 MR. SHIN:

25 Q. Okay. Thank you. Now --

1 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Shin, I think after I've even this map, I

2 think there's some credit in the objections from Defence counsel. You

3 could show this witness a map with the name of the locations and the

4 buildings, but on this map it specifically in English indicated some words

5 like "buses" there, which is very leading. I hope you -- in the future

6 you could provide us with more clean maps.

7 MR. SHIN: Certainly, Mr. President, and we'll do this without the

8 map then.

9 Thank you, Madam Usher.

10 Q. Mr. Janjic, you mentioned that you heard -- you told us you heard

11 one burst of automatic gunfire coming from the direction of the Vuk

12 Karadzic school, and that's all. Is that correct? You didn't hear any

13 other shots coming from that school?

14 A. I never said that I heard one either. Again, you didn't follow

15 what I was saying.

16 Q. I believe your exact words were that there was "one volley of

17 automatic rifle fire."

18 A. There is a big difference between a burst of gunfire and one

19 single round of gunfire. It can be one shot, and it can be a thousand

20 bullets. So there's a big difference between the two.

21 Q. Sir, are you saying you might have heard as much as a thousand

22 bullets being fired that night?

23 A. No. I never said that. I said automatic gunfire, but I wasn't

24 counting the actual bullets. And the street and the echoes that were

25 heard, there was no way I could count all of that.

1 Q. Did you go to the school yourself, Mr. Janjic?

2 A. What school?

3 Q. The Vuk Karadzic school.

4 A. I never went to that school, if you're talking about those days,

5 or rather, that particular evening.

6 Q. It's that particular evening I'm asking about.

7 A. No.

8 Q. Did you ever hear later that there were 50 or more bodies that

9 were collected from that school after that evening?

10 A. This is the first time I hear about that from you, so the answer

11 is no.

12 Q. Did you hear at any point that there were people being detained in

13 the stadium? And we've heard evidence of that from several people now.

14 A. I was precise about this. When the task was received on the 13th

15 in the evening, I don't think that anybody would have missed that. The

16 security of the school was mentioned and the security of the streets, and

17 then there is buses and trucks. Not to spell that out very precisely, but

18 at no point was any football stadium mentioned. I did not have any

19 suspicions, there was no need for me to go to that football stadium, so I

20 don't know anything.

21 Q. So you never even heard later that there were people being

22 detained at that stadium?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Did you know that on the meeting at the Fontana Hotel on the 12th

25 of July, that Mladic had said that people, the Muslim refugees, should be

1 put in the Bratunac stadium. Did you ever hear that?

2 A. No.

3 Q. Did you ever hear that in 1992 there were Muslims who were killed

4 in that stadium?

5 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour, objection as to relevance. What is

6 the relevance at this point in time?

7 JUDGE LIU: Well, I think in the direct examination you asked this

8 question.

9 MR. KARNAVAS: The question was with respect to 1995, in light of

10 the new "evidence" from this -- the previous witness that they had on

11 their case in-chief, Your Honour.

12 JUDGE LIU: Which may be related to 1995.

13 MR. KARNAVAS: Very well.

14 JUDGE LIU: If the Prosecution asks 1992 --

15 MR. KARNAVAS: Very well, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE LIU: But anyway, it's hearsay evidence.

17 MR. KARNAVAS: I understand, I understand, Your Honour.

18 JUDGE LIU: Yes, you may proceed.

19 MR. SHIN:

20 Q. Did you ever hear that, Mr. Janjic, that in 1992 Muslims were

21 killed in that stadium?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Now, you were asked yesterday about the reburial operation that

24 occurred later in 1995, in the fall of 1995. And you said you yourself

25 were not involved in that. Do you know whether there were other military

1 policemen who were involved in securing the road between Bratunac and

2 Srebrenica and further down towards Zeleni Jadar? Do you know anything

3 about that?

4 A. No. No.

5 MR. SHIN: No further questions, Mr. President.

6 JUDGE LIU: Thank you, Mr. Shin.

7 Well, Mr. Karnavas, we have five minutes left for this sitting.

8 Can you finish your re-direct in five minutes?

9 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour, this cross calls for no re-direct.

10 JUDGE LIU: Oh, even less than that. Thank you.

11 [Trial Chamber confers]

12 JUDGE LIU: Well, at this stage are there any documents to tender?

13 Mr. Karnavas?

14 MR. KARNAVAS: No, Mr. President.

15 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

16 Mr. Shin?

17 MR. SHIN: No, Mr. President.

18 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

19 Well, Witness, thank you very much for coming to The Hague to give

20 your evidence. The usher will show you out of the room. We wish you a

21 pleasant journey back home. You may go now.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, too.

23 [The witness withdrew]

24 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Karnavas, would you please brief us about

25 the next witness -- I mean, are there any protective measures?

1 MR. KARNAVAS: None, Your Honour.

2 JUDGE LIU: I see. And how long are you going to take for the

3 direct examination?

4 MR. KARNAVAS: I am hopeful, I am hopeful, that we will -- I think

5 we can handle it in one session, and perhaps with one session for cross,

6 although my goal is to finish this witness today so we can kind of catch

7 up on some ground. But we are not behind schedule. We will make up --

8 JUDGE LIU: We are one person in the schedule, which was left from

9 last week.

10 MR. KARNAVAS: Well, by the end of the week, Your Honour, I can

11 assure you we will be back on schedule.

12 JUDGE LIU: I see. I see. Which means?

13 MR. KARNAVAS: We will -- I -- tomorrow, I believe, we will be

14 able to handle two witnesses, Your Honour, that's my expectation. The

15 witnesses are in town, so logistically speaking we are well ahead of the

16 schedule.

17 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

18 I think it's time for us to break now and we will resume at

19 quarter to 11.00.

20 --- Recess taken at 10.13 a.m.

21 [The witness entered court]

22 --- On resuming at 10.47 a.m.

23 JUDGE LIU: Good morning, Witness.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Morning.

25 JUDGE LIU: Would you please stand up and make the solemn

1 declaration.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

3 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

4 WITNESS: ZORAN JOVANOVIC

5 [Witness answered through interpreter]

6 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. You may sit down, please.

7 Mr. Karnavas.

8 MR. KARNAVAS: Thank you, Mr. President, Your Honours.

9 Examined by Mr. Karnavas:

10 Q. Good morning, sir.

11 Could you please tell us your name.

12 A. Zoran Jovanovic.

13 Q. And could you please tell us your last name letter by letter.

14 A. J-o-v-a-n-o-v-i-c, with a diacritic.

15 Q. Thank you. Mr. Jovanovic, July 1995, were you a member of the

16 Bratunac Brigade?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Could you please tell us what position you held in the Bratunac

19 Brigade on July 1995.

20 A. I was commander of the 2nd Infantry Battalion.

21 Q. For how long did you hold that position? Were you the commander

22 of the 2nd Infantry Battalion?

23 A. I was acting commander, actually.

24 Q. Okay. Thank you. Now, could you please tell us how long you held

25 that position.

1 A. About two months.

2 Q. And prior to that, what was your position in the Bratunac Brigade?

3 A. I was assistant commander for intelligence and security matters in

4 the battalion as well.

5 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters note, could the witness please be

6 asked to speak up a bit.

7 MR. KARNAVAS:

8 Q. You're going to need to raise your voice a little bit, even though

9 the microphones can pick up. So I'm going to ask you to speak up a little

10 louder. Okay?

11 A. I understand.

12 Q. Have some water, relax.

13 Okay. Now, I want to focus your attention to the period

14 commencing with July 6, 1995, which was when the activities surrounding

15 Srebrenica began. Could you please tell us, if you recall, whether you

16 received any special instructions prior to July 6, concerning the

17 activities that were about to begin against Srebrenica.

18 A. We were given instructions to raise the combat readiness level of

19 the units in case our positions were attacked.

20 Q. All right. Now, your positions, where had they been prior to

21 July 6?

22 A. You mean you want me to tell you where all units were, at which

23 positions?

24 Q. Just basically. If you could just tell us, describe to us, where

25 your positions were. And then we'll get to the map at some point.

1 A. Our positions were to the left of Zuti Most at Caus and Obadi and

2 on the right, the villages of Obadi and Omanac between the towns of

3 Bratunac and Potocari.

4 Q. If you know, could you please tell us how long did you have those

5 positions, physically that is. How long had you been there, prior to July

6 6th now I'm speaking.

7 A. Well, from 1992 all the way up to 1995.

8 Q. Now, on July 11th Srebrenica fell. Could you please tell us how

9 far did you and your troops of the 2nd Battalion advance towards

10 Srebrenica during that period.

11 A. The forces of the 2nd Battalion did not advance toward Srebrenica.

12 We had another task, and our units were to move in a different direction.

13 Q. Thank you. Now, I want to show you a document, what has come into

14 evidence as P406. If you could please look at it. Do you recognise this

15 document, sir?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And what do you recognise the document to be?

18 A. This is an order that we got from the brigade command. Every

19 battalion had its own separate tasks.

20 Q. All right. Now, I take it in this document we'll find a reference

21 to your particular battalion, that is the 2nd Battalion of the Bratunac

22 Brigade. Is that correct?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Could you please tell us on which paragraph, which numbered

25 paragraph, is the reference to your particular --

1 A. 5.2.

2 MR. KARNAVAS: That would be on page 3, Madam Usher, in the

3 English version.

4 Q. All right. And this is the -- in this paragraph, it would

5 describe your activities concerning the events surrounding Srebrenica. Is

6 that correct?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Do you know for a fact whether the activities that are listed in

9 paragraph 5.2 were actually carried out?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Okay. Now, if you could just -- if I could show you another

12 document -- actually, before we get to it, this document would be D179.

13 It is for identification purposes.

14 Prior to July 6th, did you have any meetings at the command with

15 the commander of the Bratunac Brigade? Before we get to the document, do

16 you recall whether you had any meetings with the commander?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. All right. Now, I would like to direct your attention on this

19 particular document, D179 for identification, and if you could look at

20 the -- well, first of all, let me ask you: What have I just handed you?

21 What is this document?

22 A. You gave me my work notebook.

23 Q. That's your handwriting?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Do you know where -- did you turn over that notebook to the Office

1 of the Prosecution when they questioned you two years after Mr. Blagojevic

2 had been indicted?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Do you know where those notes were?

5 A. At the command of the Bratunac Brigade.

6 Q. Is there any reason why you didn't try to destroy your notes?

7 A. No.

8 Q. All right. Fair enough.

9 Now, if I could direct your attention to 3 July 1995, if you could

10 look at in this document. And for us that would be on page 3 of this

11 particular document with an ERN number of 00716489. Could you please look

12 at the date that you have as 3 July 1995 and, in particular, if I could

13 draw your attention to the section where it says: "Orders issued by

14 brigade commander." And on your version the ERN number would be 01134047.

15 Do you see that, sir?

16 A. I see that.

17 Q. That's your handwriting?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And could you please explain to us what you have written down.

20 You don't need to read it to us, but what is -- what are the items that

21 you have written down under: "Orders issued by the brigade commander"?

22 A. Tasks from the brigade commander.

23 Q. And if you were to look at what you've noted down in your

24 handwriting from a meeting that you had attended on 3 July 1995, sir, if

25 you could look at that and compare it to the previous document I showed

1 you, which has been marked and entered into evidence as P406. If you

2 could compare those two, and specifically paragraphs number 5.2. Are they

3 similar in nature? That is the tasks that were ordered.

4 A. Yes, yes, completely the same.

5 Q. Okay. Thank you. Now, we won't be needing these two documents at

6 this point in time.

7 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Karnavas.

8 MR. KARNAVAS: Yes.

9 JUDGE LIU: For the sake of the record, can you tell me how did

10 you get this document.

11 MR. KARNAVAS: Yes, Your Honour. We got these from the Office of

12 the Prosecution. These are documents that they had. The one -- the

13 document that is the notes, his notes, the gentleman's notes, were

14 apparently found by the Office of the Prosecution when they did a search

15 of the Bratunac Brigade headquarters, hence the reason why I asked him

16 whether he had destroyed the documents.

17 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

18 MR. KARNAVAS: Okay.

19 Q. Now, sir, I want to show you -- let me ask you this: Concerning

20 the events which you were tasked to do - and you may have answered this

21 question - do you recall whether you carried out these tasks, the tasks

22 that were issued to you by your commander concerning the attack on

23 Srebrenica?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. All right. From July 6th to July 11th, did you at any point in

1 time go into Srebrenica?

2 A. No, I did not.

3 Q. Did you at any point in time move from your positions?

4 A. No.

5 Q. All right. Could you please tell us from where you were located

6 what means of communications you had.

7 A. From the place where I was in that period, I had cable

8 communication, telephone communication, and Motorola communication.

9 Q. And who could you communicate --

10 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

11 MR. KARNAVAS:

12 Q. And who could you communicate with, with the telephone?

13 A. I had a telephone link with all the companies in the 2nd

14 Battalion, with the command of the 2nd Battalion, and with the brigade

15 command.

16 Q. When you say "the brigade command," would that be the one that's

17 in Bratunac?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Could you communicate directly from your position to -- with that

20 telephone that is, to Pribicevac, where the forward command -- the command

21 post of the 3rd Battalion was normally located?

22 A. I don't know exactly. I had no need to communicate with

23 Pribicevac, but I did have links with the brigade command.

24 Q. Now, when you say you had "links with the brigade command," what

25 are you speaking about? Is that the commander itself or the building

1 itself?

2 A. The building.

3 Q. All right. Do you know whether from July 6th to July 11th you

4 contacted your commander, Colonel Blagojevic?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Other than the tasks that were ordered of you that we have seen in

7 the order that was dated 5 July 1995, which correspond to your handwritten

8 notes of July 3, 1995, during that period, that is July 6 to July 11, did

9 you receive any additional orders or different orders?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Now, we understand, and I think it's an established fact, that on

12 July 11th, 1995, Srebrenica fell. Sir, did you on that particular day go

13 into Srebrenica, yes or no?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Did you go into Potocari that day, and I'm speaking about the

16 11th?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Moving to the 12th. Did you go into Potocari on July 12th, 1995?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Did you go into Srebrenica?

21 A. No.

22 Q. What about the 13th, on the 13th of July did you go into --

23 A. No, no.

24 Q. Okay. Now, moving back to July 12th, at that point in time do you

25 recall whether you had received any additional orders, that is orders

1 other than the ones that are reflected in your handwritten notes of July

2 3rd and the ones that the commander gave formally in his order that's

3 dated 5 July 1995?

4 A. Yes, yes. We received different orders.

5 Q. Now, could you please explain to us first of all what those orders

6 were.

7 A. Well, the orders were that our units should go to search the

8 terrain up to certain points, up to certain places.

9 Q. All right. Were you given on that particular day specific exact

10 coordinates, map coordinates, as to how far each company within the

11 battalion should move?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Now, before we get into the exact locations to -- that you were to

14 search and move to, could you please tell us first of all about what time

15 of day would it have been when you received those orders.

16 A. I don't know the exact time, but it was in the course of the day.

17 Q. Do you know from whom you received those orders, specifically, if

18 you recall?

19 A. From the brigade command, but I cannot remember exactly who, which

20 one of the officers.

21 Q. Now, this might be an important question not worthy for the

22 Prosecution. Could you please tell us: How did you receive those

23 ordinaries.

24 A. By telephone.

25 Q. All right. Now, before again we go into where you were to move

1 and search the terrain, could you please tell us whether you, yourself, as

2 the acting commander of the 2nd Battalion of the Bratunac Brigade ordered

3 any of your men to go into Potocari on that day.

4 A. No. Moreover, they strictly ordered us not to go in. Those were

5 the orders.

6 Q. All right. Now, could you please tell us now company by company,

7 and first we're going to -- I'm going to have you explain to us and then

8 I'm going to have you show us, okay, if you could please explain to us

9 what areas you and the other companies were to search on that particular

10 day.

11 A. How do you want me to show you?

12 Q. All right. Well, first I want you to explain to me. You had --

13 how many companies were there in the battalion?

14 A. We had five companies.

15 Q. Now, could you please just tell us, just describe to us, where

16 they were supposed to move to.

17 A. The 3rd and the 4th Company were in the area of Obadi village and

18 Caus. And they were supposed to go in the direction of Potocari and to

19 stop at the edge of the woods behind the factories in Potocari and to

20 search that part of the terrain.

21 Q. All right. Now, just so we have a clear understanding, the two

22 companies, the 3rd and 4th, are separated from the other companies by the

23 road. Is that correct?

24 A. Yes. They were left of the road from Bratunac to Srebrenica.

25 Q. All right. So if we're going from Bratunac to Srebrenica, you

1 come across the Zuti Most. There on the left side, up on the hill.

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And then if we go to the right, again going from Bratunac to

4 Srebrenica, that's where you would have the 2nd Company and the 1st

5 Company. Correct?

6 A. The 2nd and the 5th and a part of the 1st, because most of the

7 troops from the 1st Company were out in the field near Pjenovac or

8 Pjenovica.

9 Q. Now, what about -- what about the other companies? Where were

10 they to search? We talked about the 3rd and the 4th. Now, what about the

11 2nd, the 5th, and part of the 1st?

12 A. The 1st, the 2nd, and the 5th Companies were to search Budak,

13 Pale, Jaglic, and Bljcevica, the terrain around these villages.

14 Q. All right. Could you please tell us where were you located, in

15 which of these companies, if any of them, were you located on the 12th of

16 July, 1995.

17 A. I was with the 2nd and the 1st Companies at Zagoni.

18 Q. Now, you said that - and I'm going to stick with the latter

19 companies, the 1st, the 2nd, and the 5th - you indicated that they were to

20 go to Budak, Pale, and then onwards. Could you please tell us if all of

21 the members of these companies went in the same direction or took the same

22 route to get to Budak and Pale?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Now, did all -- now, from your location could you please describe

25 to us what route you took, what road you took, to get to -- to Budak and

1 Pale.

2 A. From the defence line, which we held until then, we climbed down

3 to the road to Bljeceva, which was about 300 metres away. And we took

4 that road to go to Bljeceva.

5 Q. Now, is that the same road that takes you from the Zuti Most

6 towards Potocari, where you then take a right to go to Budak?

7 A. Yes, it is.

8 Q. So on that day did you go to Zuti Most on the asphalt road and

9 then take a right?

10 A. No. I was at Zagoni, which is to the right of Zuti Most. And

11 then from Zagoni you take a country road to the Potocari/Bljeceva road, so

12 I had no need to go down there in order to get to Potocari.

13 Q. And how many men were with you when you took that road?

14 A. Around 100 troops, taking into account the 2nd Company, part of

15 the 1st, and the 5th Company, maybe a few more, but around 100.

16 Q. Would you know whether any of the other members of the 2nd -- the

17 1st and the 2nd and the 5th Company took a different route to get to

18 Budak?

19 A. The left wing of the 2nd Company was at Zuti Most, since they had

20 to go towards Bljeceva, too, one part of that company crossed through

21 Potocari.

22 Q. So they would have gone a different route, taken a different

23 route?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And you said -- would they have gone all the way through Potocari

1 or is there -- at some point do they veer off, off the road, to head

2 towards Budak?

3 A. They did not go to Potocari. They turned right before Potocari to

4 catch up with us.

5 Q. Is there a particular reason why all of you, that is the 1st, the

6 2nd, and the 5th Company did not take the same route?

7 A. In front of the Defence line, there were minefields. And it would

8 take a lot of time to clear the minefields, to remove the mines, to enable

9 them to go through. We had to remove the mines at least in one section of

10 that field to let the troops past.

11 Q. All right. Did you all meet up in Budak or Pale?

12 A. No, not in Budak, not all of us. The left wing of the 2nd Company

13 passed through Budak, and we all met up in Bljeceva.

14 Q. What were the concrete instructions, orders?

15 A. The orders were to search the terrain in the places that I

16 mentioned a moment ago.

17 Q. Had you searched the terrain before, prior to this?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Had you been given any specific instructions on how the terrain

20 should be searched?

21 A. Nothing specific. The orders only said that we should search the

22 terrain to see if some of the enemy were left there.

23 Q. Now, did you give any specific instructions as to how your men

24 were to search the terrain?

25 A. Well, the troops were given orders to search the terrain; however,

1 since there were minefields everywhere, both in front of our defence lines

2 and in front of the enemy's defence line, nobody dared to do a proper

3 search of the terrain. They mainly walked along the road towards

4 Bljeceva.

5 Q. Would you please tell us how long or how many days you were out

6 there searching the terrain.

7 A. We covered that part of the terrain very quickly, and before dark

8 we emerged at Pale village. We did not meet anyone. There was no

9 resistance, and our job was done very quickly. And, as I said, we emerged

10 at Pale before dark.

11 Q. Did you come across any abandoned weapons?

12 A. Well, we mostly found ammunition.

13 Q. Did you come across any dead bodies?

14 A. No, none.

15 Q. Now, you said you didn't come across anyone, so I take it you

16 didn't take anyone prisoner?

17 A. No. We took no prisoners and we found no dead bodies. We only

18 found traces indicating that somebody left that area before we reached

19 that place.

20 Q. Had you been given specific instructions on what to do or how to

21 treat any prisoners that you might have come across, in the eventuality

22 that you came across?

23 A. We did not receive any specific instructions, but I told company

24 commanders that in case we take any prisoners, they should be taken into

25 custody.

1 Q. All right. Now, what did you do the following day, if you recall?

2 A. The next day, we started from Pale to continue our search of the

3 terrain towards Jaglici.

4 Q. How long did that take?

5 A. I'm not sure. I think one day, maybe two.

6 Q. Did you come across any prisoners -- or did you take any

7 prisoners, I should say, during that two-day period?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Did you come across any dead bodies during that two-day period?

10 A. No.

11 Q. After that, do you recall what you did?

12 A. After that, we deployed units across various locations, that is in

13 certain villages, so that they could continue to search the terrain from

14 those villages in the following days. That was our assignment.

15 Q. And during those following days, did the 2nd Battalion ever

16 capture anyone?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Now, during that period, had you seen your commander,

19 Colonel Blagojevic?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Could you please tell us, if you recall, the date and the place,

22 please.

23 A. I cannot remember the date, but I saw him in the area of Jaglici.

24 Q. Could you please tell us whether he was with anyone.

25 A. He was with Lieutenant Colonel Cvjetinovic.

1 Q. Would you please tell us what was the nature of this meeting.

2 A. Well, he was there just to have a look around to see how we were

3 doing, where we were, and if we were encountering any problems. That

4 meeting did not last long.

5 Q. Did you tell him whether you had been encountering any problems?

6 A. We informed him that we had done what we were supposed to do, that

7 we had not run into any problems, that we had no clashes with the enemy

8 because we did not find any enemy, and that was it.

9 Q. All right. Now, after that meeting, did there some a time when

10 you had another meeting with your commander, Colonel Blagojevic?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Could you please explain to us when that was, where, and what was

13 the nature of the meeting.

14 A. I cannot remember the date again, but the meeting took place at

15 the battalion command, the command of the 2nd Infantry Battalion.

16 Colonel Blagojevic came to our command post and asked me to send one unit

17 the size of a company to the Zvornik Brigade.

18 Q. Did Colonel Blagojevic explain to you the reasons why he wanted

19 you to put a company together to send to the Zvornik Brigade?

20 A. No. He only said that he had received orders from his superiors,

21 I suppose, that one company-sized unit should be sent as assistance to the

22 Zvornik Brigade, but for what reason and on what mission, I didn't know.

23 Q. Were you aware at that point in time what was happening in the

24 Zvornik area?

25 A. No.

1 Q. Now, did anything happen after that request was made?

2 A. You mean while I was putting together and sending that unit?

3 Q. Yes. Yes. I apologise for the inartful way of putting the

4 question.

5 A. While designating that unit that was to be sent to the Zvornik

6 Brigade, we found that the troops were very unhappy. I gathered one unit

7 and lined it up outside our logistical base and informed them of where

8 they were supposed to go. They started arguing, refusing the orders, and

9 there ensued a heated argument between the troops and me and

10 Commander Blagojevic.

11 Q. All right. And during that -- those activities, did anything else

12 happen that you recall?

13 A. Well, ugly things were said on that occasion by the soldiers,

14 addressed to Colonel Blagojevic and me. And some soldiers even pulled out

15 their weapons.

16 Q. And where did they point their weapons to?

17 A. Well, at Colonel Blagojevic.

18 Q. Why was this discontent among the soldiers, and why would someone

19 even point a weapon to their own commander?

20 A. Well, I suppose it was because the combat activities around

21 Srebrenica were over, and they were supposed to continue on to Zvornik.

22 They thought that Zvornik was a problematic area, and they were looking

23 for reasons to refuse to go there. And those troops were from Bratunac

24 originally.

25 Q. All right. Did the company eventually go to Zvornik?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Now, could you please tell us how you managed to -- you or

3 Colonel Blagojevic managed to get the company to agree to go to Zvornik,

4 in light of what you just told us.

5 A. I said to Colonel Blagojevic that he can go to his command post,

6 that is to say the brigade command post, and that I will try, as the

7 superior officer, to resolve this question and to somehow persuade them to

8 go to carry out that assignment. I quarrelled with them for a long time

9 there, too, and finally I said I would go down there with them. And it

10 was after that that they got on to the bus.

11 Q. All right. Did you go all the way to Zvornik with them?

12 A. When we got into the bus, I said to the driver that he should

13 drive the bus to the brigade command so that I could report to my superior

14 officer, in view of the fact that I was going with them and that I was

15 leaving the battalion behind. And if nothing else, to see what the number

16 of soldiers who were leaving was, so that we would be aware of the number

17 of personnel.

18 Q. All right. And did you do that?

19 A. Yes. I reported there. Lieutenant Colonel Cvjetinovic was there.

20 I said to him that we were going down there, that I was going with them.

21 And he said that that was out of the question, for me to go with a unit

22 that is below the level of a company and that in this way I would be

23 leaving the battalion without a commander. The task of the battalion for

24 the following day was to go to Zepa, so they did not allow me to go with

25 that group.

1 Q. All right. Did the group eventually go to Zvornik?

2 A. After having spoken to Lieutenant Colonel Cvjetinovic, I went back

3 into the bus and I said to the soldiers who were on the bus that I was not

4 allowed to go with them because the following day the remainder of the

5 battalion was to be sent to the area of Zepa. It was then that they

6 probably realised that it was all the same. If they were supposed to go

7 to Zepa the following day, perhaps it was better for them to go to Zvornik

8 now. So they did go and they caused no further trouble.

9 Q. Who commanded that unit, if you recall?

10 A. That unit was commanded by Zoran Kovacevic. He was company

11 commander otherwise, and most of the soldiers in that group were from his

12 unit. He was already on the bus.

13 Q. All right. Do you know how long Zoran Kovacevic was in Zvornik?

14 A. I'm not sure, but I think they spent two nights there.

15 Q. When was the next time that you saw Mr. Kovacevic?

16 A. We saw each other at Zepa. The following day, I went with the

17 remaining soldiers to Zepa. And after their returned from Zvornik, they

18 came to Zepa, too.

19 Q. Did Mr. Kovacevic tell you what had occurred in -- when he went up

20 to the Zvornik area?

21 A. Yes, yes. When he came up there, he informed me about where they

22 were and what their task was.

23 Q. All right. So they ended up going to Zepa after all, to Zvornik

24 and then Zepa?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. Do you recall when you went to Zepa?

2 A. They went to Zvornik, and then the following day we went to Zepa.

3 Q. Over the years have you heard whether any of the men that you sent

4 to Zvornik under the command of Zoran Kovacevic, whether they were

5 involved in any atrocities in that area?

6 A. No, no. Zoran Kovacevic informed me that they were used up there

7 at Crni Vrh, along the road between Zvornik and Tuzla, and that they were

8 not engaged in combat action at all.

9 Q. Do you know to whom Mr. Kovacevic was to report once he arrived in

10 Zvornik and the Zvornik Brigade, because I believe that's what you

11 indicated earlier?

12 A. I don't know. I don't know. It was for us to appoint a unit, and

13 somebody was probably supposed to take them there and hand them over to

14 someone - I don't know who - at the Zvornik Brigade.

15 Q. All right. Now, I'm going to jump around from topic to topic,

16 smaller topics. Do you recall either prior to or right around the fall of

17 Srebrenica whether you were ever asked to provide someone to demine a

18 section of a field or a path at or near the Zuti Most?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. All right. This is something that we're very curious to get to

21 the bottom to. Could you please tell us: Who was it that came to you

22 with this request?

23 A. A policeman came. I don't know. I can't remember his name. I

24 didn't know him. But he came to the battalion headquarters and he asked

25 me to give a soldier from the unit that was carrying out the mining in

1 front of our defence line. At one part near Zuti Most, he was supposed to

2 carry out demining so that passage would be made possible.

3 Q. All right. First of all, you said "policeman." Is this a

4 military policeman or is this a MUP, civilian police?

5 A. Civilian police.

6 Q. Now, was he from Bratunac or from someplace else, if you know?

7 A. He wasn't from the Bratunac MUP.

8 Q. Did you recognise this policeman?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Did the policeman indicate to you whether he had received orders

11 for this particular request?

12 A. He said that they had sent him to convey to me that I was supposed

13 to provide one of those persons that I mentioned just now for carrying out

14 that particular assignment.

15 Q. Do you know whether the "they," the person who had sent them,

16 whether that person was in fact Colonel Blagojevic?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Did he ever mention that he had received authorisation from, or an

19 order from Colonel Blagojevic in order to secure a deminer from you to

20 demine part of the road?

21 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

22 MR. McCLOSKEY: That's a lack of foundation and leading. The

23 proper question is: Who did you receive the order from?

24 JUDGE LIU: Yes. It's very leading.

25 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour, he indicated that he didn't -- he

1 didn't know. I don't mind, but I assume now, I assume, that Mr. McCloskey

2 is going to be doing the cross-examination, because I see Mr. Shin there

3 writing busily, being whispered into, and now we've got McCloskey jumping

4 up. And I don't mind, I just want to know what the rules are because this

5 is not procedural in nature. So I just thought I'd point that out,

6 Your Honour.

7 JUDGE LIU: Yes. But as for this particular question, I think

8 it's a leading question.

9 MR. KARNAVAS: Very well, Your Honour. I'll go about it another

10 way. Thank you.

11 Q. Did he say from whom he had received this order?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Now, this may be leading, but I'm going to have to ask it and see

14 whether I draw an objection. Did he mention Blagojevic at all?

15 A. No.

16 Q. Okay. Did you contact your commander?

17 A. You mean that question, whether I could send that person in order

18 to carry out the demining or --

19 Q. Right. Did you contact your commander, Colonel Blagojevic, to

20 seek authorisation --

21 A. No, no. No, no.

22 Q. Did you contact anyone, Mladic, Krstic, or anyone?

23 A. No. No.

24 Q. All right. Did you provide that person, the deminer that is?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. Do you know whether the demining took place?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Do you recall the exact date? That -- that's an important detail

4 for them.

5 MR. McCLOSKEY: Your Honour.

6 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

7 MR. McCLOSKEY: I object to the little comments about what's

8 important to the various parties. You know, this kind of comment and

9 whether we're trying to trick somebody, I don't know what it's designed to

10 do, but it's absolutely inappropriate.

11 JUDGE LIU: Yes, I think that question is enough, you asking about

12 the exact date.

13 MR. KARNAVAS:

14 Q. Do you know the exact date?

15 A. I do not remember.

16 Q. Do you know the time of day? Was it morning? Middle of the day?

17 Middle of the afternoon? Or evening? Or any time in between?

18 A. I'm not sure. I think it was in the afternoon.

19 Q. Do you recall for how long, how long, this deminer was preoccupied

20 in demining the area that was requested?

21 A. I do not remember because he did not report after having completed

22 the assignment.

23 Q. When the police officer came over to make this request, did you by

24 any chance make any inquiries as to why they needed this area demined, the

25 purpose?

1 A. He said that at that point they were supposed to enter Potocari.

2 Q. Did you ask him when they were supposed to enter Potocari?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Now, when he said that "they were supposed to enter Potocari," who

5 did you understand "they" to be?

6 A. I assumed it was the police.

7 Q. Now, just as a point of reference if you could help us out here a

8 little bit. You told us on the 12th, the day of Srebrenica fell, you

9 received orders to move from your positions and search some terrain. Do

10 you recall telling us that?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. This incident, or this activity I should say, because it's not

13 really an incident, this activity, for you to provide a deminer, was that

14 before that day or after?

15 A. Would you please repeat that question.

16 Q. When the police officer came to see you, whether you could give

17 him a deminer, was that before or after you had left your positions to

18 search the terrain towards Pale, Jaglici, and so on?

19 A. Before we left.

20 Q. All right. Now, during that period, incidentally, did you see

21 Mr. Nikolic at all, Momir Nikolic?

22 A. No.

23 Q. You knew him, did you not?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. In fact, if I understand you correctly -- as I understand your

1 testimony, at one point you had been part of the intelligence and

2 security?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Do you recall where during that period he had ever made any

5 inquiries with respect to the security or intelligence situation in the

6 field, on the ground?

7 A. Very little. For the most part during the war, I was assistant

8 battalion commander for intelligence and security matters. In that period

9 I do not remember that we ever had a meeting with Momir Nikolic in order

10 to receive some instructions as to what we were supposed to do in the

11 battalion with regard to security, intelligence, and so on. So it seems

12 to me that he did not attach much importance to us in battalions who were

13 engaged in this line of work.

14 Q. Okay. Thank you. Now, I want to show you a map, and it's been

15 marked for identification as D180.

16 First of all, can you look at this map, sir, and ask -- and tell

17 us whether you recognise it.

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Now, are there some markings on this map?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Do you know who made those markings?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And could you please tell us who made the markings.

24 A. I did.

25 Q. And when did you make those markings, sir?

1 A. In Banja Luka, when I went there to make a statement.

2 Q. So you made those markings on that map for the benefit of the

3 Office of the Prosecution?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Now, before we got into the map itself, could you briefly tell us

6 what was the purpose for marking the map.

7 A. They asked me to draw the line of defence of the 2nd Battalion

8 until the fall of Srebrenica. And after that, to mark the movements of

9 units with regard to searching the terrain, a subject we discussed a while

10 ago.

11 Q. All right. Well, perhaps we can put it on the ELMO and you can

12 then describe to us step by step what you marked so at least we can see.

13 If you could -- sir, if you could show us the portion that would

14 reflect -- if you could put it on the ELMO.

15 MR. KARNAVAS: Thank you, Madam Usher.

16 Q. If you could show us where the lines of the 2nd Battalion is. And

17 if you could look at the map itself when you point.

18 A. The position of the 2nd Battalion until the fall of Srebrenica,

19 the yellow line marks Obadi on the left, the village of Obadi.

20 Q. Okay. If we can just stick -- let's stay here for a second. Now,

21 the yellow line reflects what? Are those the defence lines?

22 A. Yes, yes. It's the defence line that we held until the fall of

23 Srebrenica.

24 Q. Okay. Now, on which side -- now, we see a road there, do we not?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. Okay. If you could please just point to us, where is the Zuti

2 Most located.

3 A. [Witness complies]

4 Q. All right. And could you please tell us where is the 3rd and 4th

5 Companies located.

6 A. The 3rd and 4th Company are on the left, left of the road from

7 Bratunac to Srebrenica, Caus, and Obad.

8 Q. All right. If we could move the map just slightly up so we can

9 see where Potocari is.

10 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter could not hear the witness.

11 MR. KARNAVAS:

12 Q. Okay. Could you show us where Potocari is, the village Potocari.

13 Let's start with that first.

14 A. This is where the village of Potocari is.

15 Q. Okay. Now, what is the area commonly referred to Potocari? Not

16 the village but the area.

17 A. Along the road here, along the Bratunac/Srebrenica road.

18 Q. Okay. And could you please tell us -- I understand there are some

19 industrial buildings there. Could you please point to us where those

20 buildings would be located on the map.

21 A. On the left- and right-hand side of the road towards Srebrenica.

22 On the right side and on the left side here.

23 Q. Okay. And you were pointing where it says Pecista. Is that it?

24 Is that where the buildings would be located, right around that area?

25 A. They are below the village of Pecista, closer to the road.

1 Q. Now, in looking at the yellow line that we have where the 3rd and

2 4th Companies are, could you please tell us what the terrain looks like,

3 what the terrain is like actually.

4 A. There is a forest there. It's hilly terrain, a forested -- very

5 inaccessible. And the slopes are steep.

6 Q. Okay. Now, when the -- when you get out of the forest and you

7 reach the bottom of the hill, how close is it to the road itself? What's

8 the distance?

9 A. From the outskirts of the forest to the road, there is about 1.000

10 metres, perhaps a bit less.

11 Q. And how close would it be to where the industrial buildings are

12 located?

13 A. The industrial buildings are much closer to the edge of the

14 forest, much closer than the road is. They are about 3 or 400 metres

15 away.

16 Q. From where you were located, were you able to see, on the 12th

17 that is, where the population -- the mass of people had gathered in

18 Potocari, in and around Potocari?

19 A. Yes. I was here in the area of the village of Zagoni at this

20 checkpoint. I can't see the number here. From the place where I was, I

21 could see Potocari and everything else down there.

22 Q. Now, could you see them on the 11th, the day before, as they were

23 gathering or coming --

24 A. Yes, yes.

25 Q. Were you ever given any instructions to attack the population?

1 A. No.

2 Q. Did you, on your own, attack the population?

3 A. No.

4 Q. All right. Now, looking at the map, again if we could get back to

5 the Zuti Most, which is I believe you indicated near -- where on the map

6 it says 212, but actually it's right on the road, but just as a point of

7 reference. Could you please show us where the 2nd, 1st and -- or 2nd,

8 5th, 1st Companies would have been located.

9 A. To the right of the road, this yellow line that was marked here,

10 it was the 2nd Company first, then parts of the 1st Company, and then the

11 5th Company.

12 Q. Now, if we could move the map down just slightly. Okay. Thank

13 you.

14 Now, could you please show us on the map which route you took on

15 that first day, the 12th that is, when you moved from your position to

16 search the terrain, as you had been ordered to?

17 A. We went through the village of Zagoni to the road, from Budak

18 to --

19 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter could not hear the last word.

20 Could the witness please speak into the microphone.

21 MR. KARNAVAS:

22 Q. Okay. I need you to speak a little louder or speak into the

23 microphone, and if you could show us just slowly, again with the pointer.

24 A. All right. So through the village of Zagoni, the village road

25 leads to the road that goes from Potocari and Budak to Bljeceva. That's

1 where we went down to this road.

2 Q. And do you know how other members of the 2nd Company, how they

3 arrived in that area, because we talked about that they had to go through

4 Budak? Could you please show us on the map.

5 A. One part came along this line that we had held until then up

6 there, and another part came from this demined area. That was what we

7 discussed a while ago in connection with the police. So they got down

8 here to the road before Zagoni, and then we met up here. We got together

9 there.

10 Q. Would you please show us from the asphalt road where is the

11 turn-off to go to Budak.

12 A. They did not take an asphalt road to this road that leads to

13 Bljeceva. From the defence line that we held over here, they went through

14 the demined minefield. And along the outskirts of the forest over here,

15 they got up here to this road.

16 Q. Were you with that group?

17 A. No, I was at Zagoni, over here at Kaolin, and I went down here

18 with these parts of the unit.

19 Q. Would it surprise --

20 A. But that's not very far away. It can actually be seen with a

21 naked eye. I could actually see those parts of the units that were up

22 there.

23 Q. Do you know whether any of your men went into Potocari?

24 A. I found out that there were some.

25 Q. Did you authorise that?

1 A. No.

2 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour, this might be a good time for the

3 break.

4 JUDGE LIU: Yes, we'll have a break and we'll resume at 12.30.

5 --- Recess taken at 12.03 p.m.

6 --- On resuming at 12.32 p.m.

7 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Karnavas.

8 MR. KARNAVAS: Thank you.

9 Q. Now, sir, would you please look at the map again and show us what

10 these other markings indicate, starting with the red markings. What are

11 those markings?

12 A. The red lines indicate the positions of the units that were

13 supposed to take up position after moving from their initial lines. The

14 4th and the 3rd companies were supposed to take up positions at Djogazi

15 and Pecista. The 2nd Company, the part of the 1st and the 5th Mekote

16 and --

17 THE INTERPRETER: Another place name was missed by the

18 interpreter.

19 MR. KARNAVAS:

20 Q. What was the other place that you indicated?

21 A. Budak and Mekote village, which is near Bljeceva.

22 Q. Could you please explain to us what the blue markings relate to.

23 A. This marking probably indicates nothing in particular. It just

24 indicates which company takes up position on which line, in which area.

25 Q. All right. Now, I want to show you a series of documents, if we

1 could go through them rather quickly. The first one will be what has been

2 entered into evidence as P469. This is a daily combat report dated 13

3 July 1995. If you could look at this document, and you're being provided

4 with a handwritten version, with the ERN number 00675013. If you could

5 look at it and tell us whether there's anything in this particular daily

6 combat report that would reflect activities carried out by your battalion.

7 Look at paragraph number 2.

8 A. Reference is made here to Ravni Buljim, which is a hill that was

9 in front of us. And it was up to that place that we were supposed to

10 search the terrain, right behind Likari village I believe the name was,

11 right below Jaglici.

12 Q. And was that reflected in the map that you showed us, the lines

13 that you had drawn for the Office of the Prosecution back in 2001? I beg

14 your pardon? You need to speak up so they can hear you.

15 A. Right. Okay.

16 Q. Now, if I can show you the next document, P483. This is an order

17 dated 14 July 1995. Please look at it. Please tell us whether you have

18 ever seen this particular document.

19 A. Yes, I have seen this document.

20 Q. Now, if you look at paragraph number 2 in the order, it talks

21 about the 2nd Battalion, does it not?

22 A. Yes, it does.

23 Q. And does that accurately -- now, in comparison to the map that

24 we've seen earlier, are these the tasks that you carried out in searching

25 the terrain?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And this was pointed out to you on the map -- this is what you

3 pointed out to the Prosecution when you drew the coordinates on the map?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Thank you. Okay. Is there anything else that might be of some

6 significance to your particular battalion in this particular order?

7 A. Nothing in particular.

8 Q. All right. Now, I want to show you one other document. This is a

9 daily combat report dated 15 July 1995. If you could please look at it

10 and please tell us first of all whether there's any particular section in

11 this daily combat report that would be of some relevance to the 2nd

12 Battalion. You may wish to focus your attention on paragraph number 2.

13 A. I don't see anything in particular, apart from the fact that a

14 part of the troops from our battalion were sent to the 2nd Romanija

15 Motorised Brigade.

16 Q. Okay. Why were they sent there, do you know?

17 A. Even before, in the preceding period, we used to send a certain

18 number of soldiers to hold the line.

19 Q. Okay. Thank you.

20 Now, if we could go back to what has been marked as D179 for

21 identification. That was your -- a copy of your notebook, the one that

22 the Office of the Prosecution located at the Bratunac Brigade

23 headquarters. I just want to walk you through several of these days,

24 starting with the 6th of July. You will see that there is a date 6 and

25 7th --

1 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

2 MR. KARNAVAS:

3 Q. You will see that there is a -- and you will find it on the top of

4 the page. There is a number 01134049. Do you see that?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Okay. And there you -- we see that it says: "Deployment of

7 officers." These officers, who are they?

8 A. Those are officers of the command of the 2nd Battalion.

9 Q. All right.

10 A. And this is a deployment of officers that I made to designate who

11 will go to which unit.

12 Q. Now, there's also a note here with respect to "Miladin Vuksic for

13 Monday - the Court."

14 Do you know Miladin Vuksic?

15 A. Yes, Miladin Vuksic was a soldier in the 2nd Company, I think, of

16 the 2nd Infantry Battalion.

17 Q. Do you know what this is in reference to, "the Court"?

18 A. I don't know. It must have been some private business of his.

19 Q. Now, if we go down to the next page, this would be page 4 in the

20 English version, on the next page of your page it says: "Number of shells

21 fired on 6 and 7."

22 These are your notes, are they not, sir?

23 A. Yes, they are.

24 Q. What do these -- what do these notes reflect?

25 A. Well, that indicates the number of shells fired by us during those

1 days, on the 6th and the 7th.

2 Q. All right. Now, the next notation that we have here that I want

3 you to look at, at least, is 8 July 1995. Do you see that?

4 A. Yes, I do.

5 Q. And what does that reflect, sir?

6 A. Also the number of shells fired for that day.

7 Q. Now, after that we go to July 15. And so we don't have any notes

8 for the 9th, 10th, 11th, 12th, 13th, 14th, nor do we have any indication,

9 at least from the Office of the Prosecution, that those pages were torn

10 off or destroyed. So could you please explain to us: Why are there no

11 notes for those days?

12 A. Well, nothing special or out of the ordinary happened in those

13 days, and that's why no notes were made.

14 Q. All right. Now, right under 15 July 1995, you have 7.00 a.m., and

15 then you jump right to 20 July 1995. And it says: "Replacement in

16 Trnovo, reduction of battalion to resistance points," and so on.

17 What does that refer to, this replacement in Trnovo? What does

18 that mean?

19 A. We also sent a certain number of soldiers to Trnovo because we

20 were holding a line there as well. And that means that on the 20th July

21 at 7.00 we were to prepare that number of soldiers who were to take over

22 at Trnovo, to replace the people who had been there for a while.

23 Q. And then if we went further down, it says: "Deployment of 2nd

24 Infantry Battalion."

25 And it says: "Zagoni, Pale," and so on. Do you know what's

1 that's in reference to? Is that for the date of July 15 --

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Is that for the date of July 15th or is that for the date of July

4 20th?

5 A. No, no. That's from the 15th onwards. Deployment of units across

6 these villages for the purposes of searching the terrain in the period

7 that followed.

8 Q. And then we also see on that same column, the last item, you

9 indicate -- and that would be on the next page, page 6 in the English

10 version, it states there: "54 conscript from the 4th Infantry," and

11 something about Crni Vrh.

12 Do you see that?

13 A. Yes, I can see that.

14 Q. And could you please tell us what that's about.

15 A. That's the unit that was to go and assist the Zvornik Brigade. We

16 talked about it earlier.

17 Q. All right. And then we can also -- the next item is July 16th,

18 and in fact there you even have a notation that there was a meeting of

19 company commanders. Do you see that, where it says: "List of

20 replacements" --

21 A. Yes, yes, I see that.

22 Q. Okay. Now, do you know what this was in relation to, this

23 meeting? Who was there? Where was it held?

24 A. Meeting with company commanders regarding upcoming tasks.

25 Appointment of troops for replacement at Trnovo, and the plane of

1 engagement of conscripts for deployment in villages, in areas that we

2 discussed earlier. And also a list of conscripts who were to be

3 designated to replace units at Pjenovac.

4 Q. And Pjenovac, what was going on there that you needed to replace

5 the tasks?

6 A. At Pjenovac, this document that you showed me a moment ago

7 referred to the second Romanija Brigade. There as well we had a number of

8 troops and we needed to replace the men who had been there for some time.

9 Q. And this was something that had been going on prior to any

10 activities concerning Srebrenica?

11 A. Yes, yes. That was the regular replacement we carried out before.

12 Q. Okay. Thank you.

13 I don't have any more questions regarding this particular

14 document.

15 Incidentally, I just want to go back to that issue when we talked

16 about, the demining request that had been made of you to provide someone

17 to demine that area when the police officer came. Was -- were any

18 incidents with respect to that particular task, were there any incidents?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Do you know whether during this demining process or any other

21 demining process from deminers from the 2nd Battalion, whether any of them

22 lost their lives while demining?

23 A. I remember that one of them got killed by a mine.

24 Q. Do you know where that would have been, what was the -- where it

25 was, the circumstances?

1 A. I don't know, but I believe it was somewhere in that area,

2 precisely where these mines were being deactivated.

3 Q. Okay. Thank you, sir, I have no further questions.

4 Mr. Stojanovic may have some questions, he represents Mr. Jokic. The

5 Prosecutor, one of them - they're both jumping up - but one of them might

6 have some questions for you, and perhaps the Judges. I would appreciate

7 if you could be as frank and honest with them as you have been with me.

8 Thank you very much, sir.

9 MR. KARNAVAS: I have no further questions, Your Honours.

10 JUDGE LIU: Thank you, Mr. Karnavas.

11 Mr. Stojanovic, do you have any questions for this witness?

12 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honour.

13 Good morning, Witness.

14 Your Honour, we have no questions for this witness, bearing in

15 mind his testimony today.

16 JUDGE LIU: Thank you, Mr. Stojanovic.

17 Any cross-examination? Yes, Mr. McCloskey?

18 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President, Your Honours.

19 Cross-examined by Mr. McCloskey:

20 Q. Good afternoon, sir.

21 A. Good afternoon.

22 Q. Going back to your notes where you say you provided 54 people,

23 those were the 54 people that went to Zvornik?

24 A. 54 were supposed to be sent, but I don't believe that many of them

25 actually left. However, that was a unit that was sent to Zvornik.

1 Q. How many from your battalion do you think actually went?

2 A. Less than 50.

3 Q. About how many, if you know?

4 MR. McCLOSKEY: I'm sorry, I'm getting a buzz in my ear again.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Between 35 and 50. I can't tell you

6 more precisely.

7 MR. McCLOSKEY:

8 Q. Okay. And so if we go back to that daily combat report on the

9 15th, it talks about 80 people going up to Zvornik. Do you know where the

10 other, I don't know, roughly 30 or 40 people came from that would have

11 gone up to Zvornik?

12 A. One bus left for Zvornik and it wasn't full. There was certainly

13 less than 50 men.

14 Q. So you think this daily combat report is not correct when it says

15 80 men went up to Zvornik that day?

16 A. No, it certainly isn't correct. I know that one bus left for

17 Zvornik because I was supposed to go with them. And I know for certain

18 there were less than 50 men. No more than 50 can be seated on a bus.

19 There was certainly less than 50.

20 Q. Okay. Well, that's the bus from your battalion, but couldn't the

21 Bratunac command have sent up another bus or another truck on the same day

22 or near the same time to meet this roughly 80 number on their report?

23 A. No. I was there when they left from the command, because I was

24 supposed originally to go with them. However, they left me behind and I

25 was present when they departed for Zvornik. There were only soldiers from

1 my battalion; there were no other reinforcements, no other assistance from

2 other troops.

3 Q. How long were you at the command after the bus left?

4 A. I returned very soon to the command post of my battalion.

5 Q. So you don't know after you left the command whether or not

6 Blagojevic sent up another vehicle with Zvornik -- up to Zvornik?

7 A. I don't know.

8 Q. So do you have any reason to believe this 80 figure was

9 deliberately false?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Okay. Now, when you pick your 54 guys, or 50, or a little less,

12 how did you decide who had to go to Zvornik?

13 A. Colonel Blagojevic ordered me to send one company. I decided to

14 appoint the 4th Company, commanded by Zoran Kovacevic, because at that

15 moment they were free. They were not otherwise engaged. And the company

16 numbered more than 50 men. However, we were hard-put to put together even

17 those who actually left.

18 Q. Why didn't you send any 3rd Company?

19 A. The 3rd Company was involved in an assignment.

20 Q. Is that the same -- true of the 2nd and the 1st that didn't get

21 sent, because they were involved in assignments as well?

22 A. Yes. In that period, a lot of troops were already out in the

23 field, in the area between Pjenovac and Trnovo. And we didn't have enough

24 troops left because some were on leave and others were engaged in the

25 missions we had at the time.

1 Q. So you know -- you knew at the time what your other companies were

2 doing when you decided to send the 4th Company up to Zvornik?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. In fact, as a commander, you had to evaluate what each of your

5 companies were doing in order to choose the one you wanted to go meet that

6 order to go to Zvornik. Right?

7 A. No. I knew where these other companies were deployed, and the 4th

8 Company at that moment was free. That's why I appointed them to go.

9 Q. Maybe you misunderstood me, but you had to know what each of your

10 companies was doing in order to choose the company that you actually ended

11 up choosing?

12 A. I knew everything. I knew what each company was doing.

13 Q. As a commander, that was your responsibility, wasn't it?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Did Colonel Blagojevic talk to you about potentially sending

16 people to Zepa along with Zvornik when he talked to you about Zvornik?

17 A. At that moment, there was no question of sending troops to Zepa.

18 Q. Okay. But you've seen this daily combat report on the 13th where

19 it talks about -- the brigade is working on getting a group together to be

20 sent to Zepa. Right?

21 A. The 1st Battalion had gone to Zepa before, in which period exactly

22 I don't know. All I know is that the 1st Battalion had been to Zepa

23 before. So maybe that referred to them.

24 Q. All I'm asking you is that it's clear from this 13 July report

25 that Colonel Blagojevic has to follow orders and get a unit and send them

1 off to Zepa on the 13th. Right?

2 A. I only know of the orders that I got from Colonel Blagojevic that

3 had to do with the 2nd Battalion.

4 Q. I know. I'm just asking you about this daily combat report; it's

5 as simple as that. It got read to you by the Defence. It says: "The

6 brigade command is working on the formation of a company to be sent to the

7 area of Podravanje to carry out the assignment."

8 That's 469. So is it fair to say that if that's true,

9 Colonel Blagojevic on the 13th had to work to find a unit to send towards

10 this assignment? I'm not trying to --

11 A. Which area?

12 Q. -- I'm just trying to ask you about this order. It's a very

13 simple question. It says he's working on sending somebody to Zepa -- or

14 to Podravanje.

15 A. I beg your pardon.

16 Q. It says he's working on sending someone to Podravanje, do you have

17 any doubt in your mind that that's what he's working on that day, based on

18 this order?

19 A. We sent a unit from the battalion, a platoon actually with

20 Major Pajic to the area of Milici or Podravanje. I don't remember the

21 exact date, but we did send this one unit.

22 Q. The records and the other records show that Major Pajic led that

23 unit, which is the subject of the order I just read to you. So knowing

24 that, is it fair to say Colonel Blagojevic had to send that unit. Right?

25 A. The unit left with Major Pajic to the area of Podravanje. That's

1 the way it was.

2 Q. And would Colonel Blagojevic have been involved in that process of

3 getting that unit together and making sure they got off to the assignment?

4 A. Major Pajic came to me and said that I should get a unit that

5 would go to the area of Podravanje, and that he would lead and command

6 that unit.

7 Q. Okay. Listen to my question. Would Colonel Blagojevic have been

8 involved in that process to get Pajic and his unit ready and off to that

9 assignment?

10 A. Colonel Blagojevic did not issue an order to me. Maybe he did to

11 Major Pajic, but Pajic came to me with an order that I should get a unit

12 together and that he would lead that unit.

13 Q. Okay. Let me just go back to my sort of general question that we

14 talked about. We'll go back to you as a commander. In order to meet the

15 orders that were provided to you by your superiors to get a unit ready to

16 go to Zvornik, you, as you said, had to decide which of your companies to

17 send, and you did, because they were the company that was free. Now, if,

18 just if, if Colonel Blagojevic got a similar order to get one of his units

19 and send them somewhere, would he have had to have gone through the same

20 basic process that you did, see which of his units were available, figure

21 out who could be sent? It's a very simple question.

22 A. No, no.

23 Q. Now, he wouldn't have had to do that. What would he have done?

24 A. He ordered me to get a company that would go to Zvornik, and it

25 was my decision that it would be the 4th Company. He did not tell me at

1 any point in time that I should send the 4th Company or the 2nd Company or

2 any other specific unit.

3 Q. Okay. But I'm asking you a little bit different. I'm asking you

4 about a hypothetical of what your commander would have been involved in.

5 Before your commander would have asked you, wouldn't he have had to know

6 what the other battalions were doing in order to determine which lucky

7 person would have to send people to Zvornik?

8 A. I don't know for what reason he decided to ask me for a company.

9 It wasn't for me to ask why he asked me from the 2nd Battalion for a

10 company.

11 Q. But as a commander, as a commander, wouldn't Blagojevic have had

12 to know what his other battalions were doing before he asked you? I'm not

13 asking you to tell me why. I'm just asking you: As a commander, wouldn't

14 he have had to know what his other battalions were doing?

15 A. He probably did know what the other battalions were doing, but I,

16 as his subordinate, was not supposed to ask him about things like that.

17 My duty was to carry out the order that I got, namely to select a company

18 that would be sent to Zvornik.

19 Q. Okay. And if one of your companies happened to be guarding

20 prisoners at the time you got an order like this, would you have known

21 that they were guarding prisoners?

22 A. I'm sorry. Could you repeat that question.

23 Q. If when you got this order from Blagojevic to get a unit together

24 to go to Zvornik and one of your companies had - and I'm not saying it

25 did, because I know you said it didn't - but had they been guarding

1 prisoners at the time in your area, would you have known it?

2 A. Of course I would have known it.

3 Q. Now, when Colonel Blagojevic is, as the commander of the brigade,

4 considering what units he might send to Zepa or send to Zvornik, can you

5 tell me what different units he would have had to choose from. We know

6 yours. What else? And I'm not saying which ones, but normally which

7 units would he look at as potential people to send somewhere?

8 A. Well, we did not have any special units in the battalion. We had

9 companies with the kind of age pattern that prevailed. I think that the

10 1st Battalion was already at Zepa at the time, so there was no other

11 option but to select a unit from the 2nd Battalion. Perhaps that was the

12 reason why the colonel asked us to send a company.

13 Q. He would ideally want someone that was perhaps better disciplined

14 than your standard conscript in a trench?

15 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour, all of them were --

16 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

17 MR. KARNAVAS: -- conscripts and all of them were in trenches, so

18 if he can distinguish.

19 MR. McCLOSKEY: That's not true.

20 MR. KARNAVAS: I don't know whether this gentleman had any

21 specialised troops, so if he could lay a foundation, but I'm unaware of

22 the 2nd Battalion having any you know commando-type, disciplined troops.

23 MR. McCLOSKEY: The witness, Your Honour, is not speaking now of

24 the 2nd Battalion, he just spoke of the 1st Battalion, and he said the

25 reason they came to the 2nd Battalion was because other people were sent

1 other places. My question is very simple: Wouldn't they want someone who

2 was a little more disciplined than this usual trench soldier, and I can go

3 through the units of the Bratunac Brigade for us, but I don't -- I would

4 rather leave it up to the witness.

5 JUDGE LIU: Well, generally speaking, you can proceed.

6 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you.

7 Q. Sir, what other -- is it true that Colonel Blagojevic would want

8 to send someone a bit more disciplined, like you've suggested, and perhaps

9 a younger age to be able to handle such an assignment?

10 A. All our companies were the same on average, as regards the number

11 of personnel and the age pattern. Not a single one of these companies

12 figured prominently in any respect compared to others. So had I sent any

13 one of these companies to Zvornik, they would not have been anything

14 special in relation to others.

15 Q. I'm not talking about your companies; I'm talking about

16 brigade-wide. What other units would the -- Colonel Blagojevic have

17 chosen from brigade-wide that were part of the Bratunac Brigade?

18 A. Well, within the Bratunac Brigade, we had four battalions. In all

19 these battalions, there were companies, troops, that held the line during

20 the war. We had the military police that carried out its own tasks. We

21 did not have any other special units, no units of a special kind, if I can

22 put it that way. So had he asked for a unit from another battalion, again

23 it would have had to have been a company.

24 Q. Were you aware of Rade Petrovic's Red Berets?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. It's a little different unit than the usual guys in most of the

2 companies, isn't it?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. So do you want to consider your answer again? There are some

5 special units in the Bratunac Brigade that he could have picked, aren't

6 there? Rade Petrovic, for example.

7 A. Rade Petrovic's unit was a squad, that is 10 to 15 soldiers all

8 together. Colonel Blagojevic wanted a unit at company level, so that

9 required a larger number of soldiers. Why that particular unit was not

10 used at all, I really don't know.

11 Q. I have the roster of that unit, and it shows, for July, 20 people.

12 Now, Colonel Blagojevic could have sent the MP platoon as a combat unit,

13 couldn't he?

14 A. He could have, but it was not for me to ask why he did not send

15 the military police or I don't know what other unit. He strictly issued

16 me an order to select a company that was supposed to go to Zvornik, and

17 that was my task. It was not for me to ask him why he was not sending

18 this group or that group.

19 MR. McCLOSKEY: I don't have any further questions.

20 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

21 Any re-direct?

22 MR. KARNAVAS: Again, Your Honour, this cross calls for no

23 re-direct.

24 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

25 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President --

1 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

2 MR. McCLOSKEY: I haven't said anything, but these comments about

3 "this cross calls for no direct," these are argumentative, designed for a

4 jury frankly. And they're never allowed where Mr. Karnavas comes from

5 that I'm aware, and it becomes, you know, it does not become this

6 international institution to listen to this each time.

7 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour, I meant no offence. You know, when a

8 cross deserves or is necessary for me to follow-up on re-direct, I do so.

9 And I have been told to restrict it, to curtail it. So I've elongated my

10 direct, and so I'm merely -- but if the gentleman is upset by what I'm

11 saying, I'll delete that from my phraseology.

12 JUDGE LIU: There must be something to indicate your intention.

13 MR. KARNAVAS: That's why I said that there was no -- because the

14 cross itself, there was no need for me to do re-direct --

15 JUDGE LIU: I know, I know. But maybe the wording. You might

16 think of some better wording.

17 MR. KARNAVAS: Okay. All right.

18 JUDGE LIU: I myself don't know how to put it.

19 MR. KARNAVAS: I'll work on it, Your Honour.

20 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

21 MR. KARNAVAS: I do have a couple of documents that we made

22 reference to, and that would be D180. That was the map that the gentleman

23 had marked when he was questioned by the Prosecution some two years after

24 Mr. Blagojevic was indicted. And then D179, which are the notes from the

25 work -- his own notebook which he referred to, just the limited pages --

1 well, actually the whole notebook can come in or the pages that he just

2 made reference to, but we have the entire document.

3 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

4 Any objections?

5 MR. McCLOSKEY: No, Mr. President.

6 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

7 I think I have a question concerning document D179/1. What's the

8 relevance for this document?

9 MR. KARNAVAS: Well, Your Honour, I'm not dying to get it in. We

10 don't have to have it introduced into evidence. Merely because he made

11 reference to it, I thought as a courtesy if the Trial Chamber wished to

12 have it. But in light of the fact that there's no dilemma, in the sense

13 that there is no conflict as to what he said and what the other documents

14 that already have been admitted, such as the daily combat reports, and --

15 so I'll withdraw that document. But the map, I do believe, is somewhat

16 helpful, especially since he marked it and it does dovetail his testimony.

17 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. McCloskey.

18 MR. McCLOSKEY: I would then offer that document into evidence. I

19 think the fact that there's nothing on it from 9 July until 15 July in

20 combination with his testimony regarding that date is something the Court

21 should consider and as well as the numbers of men being sent to various

22 units might be helpful to have that as part of the record.

23 JUDGE LIU: But I myself have a question to this witness, if I

24 could ask this witness concerning with the documents.

25 MR. KARNAVAS: Absolutely, Your Honour, absolutely.

1 Questioned by the Court:

2 JUDGE LIU: Well, Witness, in this document you listed several

3 firings from your company. For instance, the number of shells fired on

4 July 6th and 7th, 1995. Can I know which direction those shells were

5 fired. Is it to Srebrenica?

6 A. Not at Srebrenica. With these weapons that were used for firing,

7 we did not have the right range to reach Srebrenica. They were fired at

8 the defence line that was right in front of ours.

9 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

10 I guess there's no questions out of my question?

11 MR. KARNAVAS: No, Mr. President.

12 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

13 Well, I think these two documents are admitted into the evidence.

14 If the Defence withdraws the document D179, the Prosecution will have it

15 tendered. So we might have a Prosecution number, but I hope the parties

16 will consult with the Court Deputy to solve this issue. To me, the number

17 is not a big issue.

18 Well, Witness, thank you very much for coming to The Hague to give

19 your evidence. The usher will show you out of the room, and we wish you a

20 pleasant journey back home. Thank you.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

22 [The witness withdrew]

23 JUDGE LIU: Well, we still have 25 minutes left. Are there any

24 witnesses waiting outside, Mr. Karnavas?

25 MR. KARNAVAS: Regrettably, no, Your Honour. He is here in The

1 Hague. I didn't think that we would be so efficient. But, as I've

2 indicated, I do anticipate sticking to the schedule that we had

3 anticipated last week, that is that we would get all our witness plus make

4 up for last week.

5 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

6 There are some procedural matters. The first thing is that,

7 Mr. Karnavas, we are expecting your reply today or tomorrow. I want to

8 know what's the status for it, because we cannot do anything without

9 receiving your reply.

10 MR. KARNAVAS: Right. I had heard earlier that the Court would

11 welcome it tomorrow, so in light of that bit of news I believe I will be

12 able to have it tomorrow. We have it in the drafting stage, I just need

13 to fine-tune it a little bit. We can even argue it a bit tomorrow, if

14 need be, if there's time. But it will be in tomorrow. Now, I cannot

15 guarantee that it will be in tomorrow morning at 9.00, but I will have it

16 in tomorrow. That's a fixed date, and I think that's fair enough.

17 JUDGE LIU: Well, I think during the last time we didn't say that

18 there must be a hearing. It depends on the reply from the Defence

19 counsel. So I just said that there might be. We could only make any

20 decisions after reading those submissions.

21 MR. KARNAVAS: Well, if the Court is leaning towards an adverse

22 decision towards the Defence, I would welcome the opportunity to have an

23 oral argument. If the Trial Chamber then is more inclined to deny the

24 Prosecution's motion, then obviously I would have no need to present my

25 views.

1 JUDGE LIU: Well, the second issue is about the additional

2 evidence concerning Witness P130.

3 MR. KARNAVAS: Well --

4 JUDGE LIU: I am not sure what's the result of your consultations

5 between the parties. Are there any developments? Because we would like

6 to be informed as early as possible, so as to arrange some time, if

7 necessary.

8 MR. KARNAVAS: Yes, Your Honour. Thank you. I notice that

9 Mr. McCloskey is on his feet, but since I was already on my feet, rather

10 than sit down and jump up again, let me just reply. We've heard that

11 there was a meeting between Mr. McCloskey and Mr. Stojanovic and Mr.

12 Lukic. And they've expressed their position that, at least as far as

13 they're concerned - and I don't want to speak for them but I will at this

14 stage - that they have no burning desire to re-open the case, simply for

15 this gentleman to appear and testify, in light of the fact that his

16 credibility is called into question.

17 We received -- yesterday, we received a -- one of these CDs where

18 you can hear the conversations, and I've spent a considerable time, both

19 thinking about this and also looking at the issue itself. At this stage,

20 I would first of all -- I would need to look at the CD -- hear it in a

21 more thorough fashion. However, however, the Trial Chamber has been

22 rather -- I will just say inflexible, for lack of a better term, in trying

23 for us to meet our targeted date. I'm not saying that the Trial Chamber

24 is being unreasonable, I'm just saying rather inflexible. We wish to

25 comply with that, and we feel that in order to comply with that, we would

1 have to proceed as we are proceeding. If there were to be a situation

2 where the Prosecution were to re-open its case, it would require, I

3 believe in order to -- for us to ethically meet our obligations to have

4 some time to investigate, because it's not just a matter of the

5 cross-examination of the gentleman, but also to see whether we would be

6 able to find witnesses in addition to what we already have on the list.

7 So we're talking about, one, adding more witnesses as a result of this;

8 and two, some period. And so we're talking about some delay in the

9 process, a delay which I believe I can speak for the Trial Chamber is one

10 that they don't look at favourably.

11 Be that as it may, that argument, let's set that aside. I've also

12 thought about the situation where we are today. The Trial Chamber has

13 already made a ruling, issued a judgement of acquittal, on several

14 portions of the indictment. By re-opening the Prosecution's case at this

15 stage, theoretically speaking, I don't think we have any jurisprudence at

16 this stage in this Tribunal, but theoretically speaking the Prosecution

17 could also argue that by re-opening its case, especially with the consent

18 of the Defence, they would be entitled to the Trial Chamber also

19 reconsidering the judgement of acquittal. And of course once a battle has

20 been won, why would one need to fight it and win it all over again. So

21 there is that concern.

22 Also, I've given this some -- a great deal of thought. And it

23 would seem to me that in no way is the trial -- is the Prosecution

24 prejudiced by bringing this individual in as part of their rebuttal, in

25 the event the Defence chooses not to call him. Now, as I said, I haven't

1 listened to the entire transcript, but from what I understand it would

2 appear, at a minimum, the gentleman committed perjury when he testified.

3 So now it's a matter of cross-examining an acknowledged perjurer. And it

4 would seem to me, as perhaps this became evident to the Jokic Defence, why

5 would one need to examine a perjurer, who's already perjured himself in

6 this particular case. We also believe that some of the testimony -- some

7 of the facts he's given the Prosecution are rather incredible. And if the

8 Prosecution wishes to put him on, then they can put him on in their

9 case -- in their rebuttal, and then, of course, I would suspect that the

10 Trial Chamber would allow us for surrebuttal, if there is any required.

11 So, again, I haven't looked at it to see whether I would be

12 calling the gentleman, but my instincts as a trial lawyer tell me that

13 there is no need to build a wall only to knock it down, and so why would I

14 want to call someone to cross-examine who now tells us is a perjurer who

15 is also choosing other Prosecution witnesses - star witnesses, might I

16 add - as perjurers, why would I need to do that? And so in all likelihood

17 I will not be calling him as my witness, especially if we are going to

18 meet the deadline that you have imposed on us. Because I can see that

19 perhaps in the future we may be running over schedule with some of the

20 witnesses. I don't know if I have been able to answer the Trial Chamber's

21 question, but I think that's my position as of now. And I doubt if I'm

22 going to reconsider -- at least the portion with allowing the Prosecution

23 to re-open its case, only in the sense that at least they had an

24 opportunity to put on their witness, he took an oath, the oath there says

25 quite clearly: "The truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth,"

1 not part of the truth, not some of the truth, not some of the time, but

2 all of the time, and, so, that's our position at this point. I did in

3 fact let the -- I just want to clear, my initial instincts yesterday were

4 to allow the Prosecution to go ahead as a courtesy. However, thinking

5 about it again, in light of the judgement of acquittal, you know, had it

6 gone any other way, which it could not, I dare say, but had it gone any

7 other way, in other words, had it been disfavourable to us, I might have

8 said: No harm, no foul. But in this instance I don't want to put myself

9 in a position where I'm going to have to re-litigate points or issues or

10 charges that have already been judged to have been found lacking in

11 evidence. Thank you.

12 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much for letting us know about your

13 position at this moment. There is only one thing I would like to point

14 out, that is you misused a word "perjurer." It should be alleged.

15 MR. KARNAVAS: Well, Your Honour, he's admitted that --

16 JUDGE LIU: I understand that.

17 MR. KARNAVAS: Okay. I will use -- well, defence lawyers usually

18 get criticised for using the word "alleged."

19 JUDGE LIU: I know that.

20 Yes, Mr. McCloskey.

21 MR. McCLOSKEY: Well, that is of course a curve ball thrown at us.

22 That is a change, which everyone has a right to change their mind. But I

23 spoke to Mr. Stojanovic. He was going to consult and I would be curious

24 on his viewpoint, and then I could offer mine.

25 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

1 Mr. Stojanovic.

2 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. We did have a

3 meeting yesterday with the Prosecutor, and our main subject was the issue

4 of re-opening or not re-opening the Prosecution case at this stage,

5 starting with new testimony by P130. We agreed - and the Prosecutor will

6 correct me if I'm wrong - that at this point neither the Prosecution nor

7 our Defence team are able to say whether we would be considering,

8 contemplating, this at all. In our view, the Prosecution should use

9 substantial evidence to test the credibility of P130. And it is also our

10 view that, considering the drastic change of P130's testimony, it would be

11 appropriate at least to let us have an insight into the statement made by

12 this witness on the 23rd of May, on Sunday.

13 I pointed out to Mr. McCloskey at least three Prosecution

14 witnesses who have been heard by this Honourable Trial Chamber and said

15 things completely opposite to the assertions of this new testimony by

16 P130. These were not protected witnesses I believe, but certainly if we

17 get to see this witness's statement and familiarise ourselves with it, we

18 would be able to decide more competently.

19 Also, when I was talking yesterday to Mr. McCloskey, I undertook

20 to review all the substantial evidence we have and compare it with the

21 statement of P130. And I believe that there is evidence on record that

22 runs counter to the statements P130. However, we need some breathing

23 space, some additional time to see whether it would be worthwhile to have

24 this witness appear again or not. I said yesterday to Mr. McCloskey

25 something that I think I should repeat here today; namely, that I as

1 Defence counsel see nothing that I would gain my hearing him again. But

2 it is my position that if the Prosecutor suggests we hear the witness

3 again and Mr. Karnavas agrees, I would maybe decide against

4 cross-examining him. At least for the time being, we see no reason to

5 cross-examine him again, but we will have to see.

6 Our Defence team met last night with the team of Mr. Karnavas, and

7 Mr. Karnavas told us that he believed he should change his initial

8 intuition-led idea concerning the re-opening of the Prosecution case. We

9 were three Defence counsels conferring last night, and we were thinking

10 whether this might set the scene for changing the judgement under Rule 98

11 bis. We haven't been able to come to a conclusion, but in the civil law

12 system, where I come from, that would be a motion for re-trial, which is

13 an extraordinary legal remedy that is invoked in case new circumstances or

14 new evidence arises, wherein the Trial Chamber would be allowed to make a

15 different decision. But if I compare this system to the system in which

16 we are working today, then we could easily end up in a situation that

17 Mr. Karnavas evoked, where we would have to re-assess the evidence.

18 And finally, we are dealing with a questionable witness, to say

19 the least, a witness who under oath in January said something entirely

20 different to what he said on Sunday. What do we have to gain by hearing

21 this witness? Our Defence thinks it's nothing. And therefore, I kindly

22 ask for your leave to review again the materials we are going to get from

23 the Prosecution and then inform the Trial Chamber of our position again.

24 In the letter we received from Mr. McCloskey, he now gave a yes answer

25 apparently to some questions to which he answered no in cross-examination.

1 For instance, that he was not in the command of the Zvornik Brigade on

2 16th, that's what he said in Sunday; and in his testimony in January, he

3 said he was. Since his testimony is now what it is, we need at least some

4 time to review his statement made on Sunday. Thank you.

5 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

6 Mr. McCloskey.

7 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Mr. President. First of all, regarding the

8 issue that I think is an interesting one, if we re-open the case, does

9 that mean that the Judges re-open the 98 bis situation? I think that is

10 of course in the discretion of the Trial Chamber. I think there would be

11 good reasons to do that. And I can tell the Trial Chamber that it is a --

12 I have been preparing a motion for your reconsideration of that subject

13 based on the new evidence, as it's come forward in the Defence case. So

14 this is not something that is brand new. As I'm sure it's not lost on

15 anyone, there's been amazing evidence that's come in as part of the

16 Defence case. For example, prior to the Defence case we had some

17 references to bodies at the Vuk Karadzic school, but now we have as part

18 of the record the person who was in charge of that, receiving reports of

19 50 bodies on each floor in each classroom. This creates a massive crime

20 scene that we did not have prior to the case in such a graphic manner,

21 though we did have the victims in that school giving reports that would be

22 consistent with that.

23 In addition, as you're aware of, the 98 bis did not acquit on any

24 counts; it acquitted forms of liability, many of which were highly

25 fact-based. One example is, I believe you acquitted on the issues of the

1 people that were in the interrogation notes that were found with Resid

2 Sinanovic. We now have, courtesy of the Defence, seen the lawyer that

3 took those notes and has actually interviewed those people in front of the

4 brigade command, and they are also on the missing list. So the evidence

5 supplied just in those two situations, and I -- believe me, we have

6 numeral situations that I would point out in my motion for

7 reconsideration.

8 Fundamentally what I have -- what we would be asking the Court and

9 something I think the Court should consider in the case of this individual

10 is just -- what did we used to call it? Taking your ruling under

11 submission, taking it back but keeping it under submission until the end

12 of the Defence case. And if you feel the same as you did before, then it

13 becomes -- then the ruling just becomes confirmed. I've seen Trial Judges

14 do that before, at the -- sometimes at the end of the Prosecution's case.

15 So even before we get to this witness, that would be something that, when

16 I found some time, I was going to ask the Court to consider. It doesn't

17 require anything more than recognising that new evidence is coming in. I

18 think we're only halfway through the Defence case, and I expect a lot more

19 evidence to come in. And then evaluating it all in light of that

20 evidence. I'm hoping the Court does not want to just disregard the

21 evidence that came in through the lawyer, for example, and the other

22 individuals.

23 So putting that aside, now how do we bring in Witness 130 to the

24 mix? Right now, I do not see any significant inconsistencies in his

25 statement. We will look at it very carefully. And if I see or there is

1 something evident to me that this is -- doesn't make any sense, it's

2 crazy, we would not submit it. But I would not have gone as far as I did

3 by outlining it to the Defence had I thought that. And in my view, this

4 is evidence unparalleled in the history of this Tribunal. You have a man

5 that's a security officer that - if to be believed - is at the core of the

6 organisation of a genocide, and willing to admit it, even to the point of

7 each clip he is putting in his firearm and each of his friends. So I

8 think it's of historic importance for this case, for this genocide, for

9 this Court to take a good hard look at this guy, with Mr. Karnavas having

10 full powers of his excellent cross-examination skills, along with

11 Mr. Stojanovic, and your review of him.

12 Now, we will and I can, of course, provide you with the statement,

13 if the Defence does not object and you order me to, and you can take a

14 look before making a decision what you think. Obviously if you think from

15 your review this is something you don't think this is important to put

16 time in, or if you do. I think you're getting a good view of how counsel

17 views. The timing of it, I am of course -- can fit it in wherever we can

18 best fit it in. I still walk by the balcony out here and I want this case

19 to be over with as much as everybody does. But be it rebuttal, be it in

20 the next few weeks before the Defence case -- I don't really care. I

21 think the most important thing is Defence has a chance, as both counsel

22 have said, to review the material and be ready for cross-examination so

23 you get the best chance at seeing whether this is truthful or not. And I

24 think that's all I have to say.

25 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much.

1 I just want to preliminarily hear the views from the parties. And

2 if there is really a necessity to re-hear this witness, I hope the parties

3 will file something written so that we could act upon the submissions from

4 the parties. And the -- as the Defence counsel mentioned yesterday that

5 next week we will have some special witnesses. And I was advised that the

6 time should not be changed because it involves a lot of logistic

7 arrangements. And having said that, the hearing for today is adjourned.

8 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned

9 at 1.48 p.m., to be reconvened on Wednesday,

10 the 26th day of May, 2004, at 9.00 a.m.

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