1 Monday, 14 May 2007
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.03 a.m.
6 JUDGE PARKER: Good morning.
7 Good morning, sir. Would you please take the card in your hand
8 and read aloud the affirmation.
9 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
10 JUDGE PARKER: Can you hear me being translated into your
12 THE INTERPRETER: The witness does not have his microphone on.
13 JUDGE PARKER: Would you please read aloud the affirmation on the
15 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters do not hear the witness.
16 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. Please sit down.
17 MR. SAXON: I'm hearing from the interpreters they could not
19 JUDGE PARKER: Yes. I heard that, too, but I heard the witness.
20 We must now switch on the microphone.
21 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
22 JUDGE PARKER: We're asked a minute or two while some technical
23 problem is resolved.
24 [Technical difficulty]
25 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
1 JUDGE PARKER: The technical problem in the Macedonian booth has
2 now been corrected so we may proceed.
3 Mr. Saxon.
4 WITNESS: WITNESS M-037
5 [Witness answered through interpreter]
6 MR. SAXON: Thank you, Your Honour.
7 Examination by Mr. Saxon:
8 Q. Sir, at the outset, I would like to ask for the assistance of the
9 usher to show you a pieces of paper.
10 And could you please, without stating any information on the piece
11 of paper, can you tell us whether that piece of paper contains your true
13 A. Yes.
14 MR. SAXON: Mr. Usher, before you go away.
15 Q. Is the other information on that piece of paper correct?
16 A. Yes.
17 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, can we move into private session just
19 JUDGE PARKER: Private.
20 [Private session]
2 [Open session]
3 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're in open session.
4 MR. SAXON:
5 Q. Witness, today, I will address you by the number M-037, and so can
6 you please try not to mention your own name or other information that
7 might identify you in public session. When it is necessary, we will move
8 into private session.
9 Have you lived your entire life in Macedonia?
10 A. Yes.
11 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters ask that the witness moves
12 closer to the microphone, please.
13 JUDGE PARKER: Could you see if you could improve the position of
14 the microphone, please, Mr. Court Officer.
15 MR. SAXON:
16 Q. Is your ethnicity Macedonian?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Are you a professional police officer?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. In your years of service as a police officer, have you always
21 performed your duties to the best of your ability?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Were you an active police officer during the year 2001?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. During that time of crisis in Macedonia, at times, did you risk
1 your life to protect the lives and safety of the citizens of Macedonia?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Sir, are police officers in Macedonia part of the Ministry of
5 A. Could you please repeat?
6 Q. Are police officers in Macedonia part of the Ministry of the
8 A. Yes.
9 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, we have a number of exhibits to show to
10 the witness today, and we brought a few binders with tabbed hard copies
11 for the assistance of the Judges, if the usher could distribute them,
13 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
14 MR. SAXON: Mr. Usher, there is no need to show the witness
15 anything right now. Hopefully, we will be able to use the e-court system;
16 but if not, I'm grateful, because then we will turn to that binder.
17 If we could show the witness what is on tab 1, which is 65 ter
18 number 99.
19 JUDGE PARKER: Could I mention, Mr. Saxon, that the identification
20 sheet has not --
21 MR. SAXON: Been tendered.
22 JUDGE PARKER: -- got past the witness at the moment.
23 MR. SAXON: Then I apologise, Your Honour. Could that
24 identification sheet be tendered into the record, please.
25 JUDGE PARKER: Could it first be shown to the Defence.
1 MR. SAXON: Yes, please. And the Prosecution would be grateful if
2 this could be tendered under seal, Your Honours.
3 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
4 MR. SAXON:
5 Q. Witness, if you take a look at the computer screen in front of
6 you, you see that it's a split screen, and you can see a document in
7 Macedonian on the right-hand side and the English translation on the
8 left-hand side. Do you see that?
9 JUDGE PARKER: Before we lose it, the identification sheet will be
10 received under seal, Mr. Saxon.
11 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P32, under seal, Your Honours.
12 MR. SAXON: I'm grateful, Your Honour.
13 Q. Witness, do you see the two versions of the document in front of
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. I'd ask to you follow along, please, in the version that is in
17 your language. This document is titled, "Rules on the organisation and
18 work of the Ministry of Interior." Do you say that?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Just briefly, if we look at Article 1, it says: "These rules
21 establish the internal organisation of the Ministry of Interior;
22 henceforth, the Ministry, excluding the security and counter-intelligence
24 Do you see that?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. And then Article 2, the very first line: "The Minister of the
2 Interior; henceforth, the Minister, is in charge of the work of the
3 Ministry of Interior." And the last sentence of Article 2 reads: "The
4 Public Security Bureau as an organ of the Ministry is headed by a
6 Are you still following me?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Then below, there's a subtitle part 2, called, "Internal
9 Organisation," and we see Article 3, which reads: "For the completion of
10 the work of the Public Security Bureau, two departments are founded; the
11 police department and the criminal police department, as well as other
12 autonomous organisational systems."
13 Do you see that?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And that is followed by Article 4, which says: "The police
16 performs work that is directly concerned with the maintenance of public
17 law and order, the regulation and control of traffic on the roads, the
18 control of state border crossings, the protection of certain individuals
19 and buildings," and then it goes on, "as well as other work established in
20 Article 1 of the law on Internal Affairs, which by nature or conditions
21 require that it be performed by uniformed employees of the Ministry."
22 Do you see what I've just read?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And does that description of the police accord with your knowledge
25 and experience as a professional police officer?
1 A. Yes.
2 MR. SAXON: If we could, with the Court officer's assistance move
3 to the next page, please, in each version.
4 Q. And, Witness M-037, you see there is an article called Article 9.
5 Do you see that article?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. I'm sorry. Was that a yes?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Article 9 begins: "Internal affairs sector for the city of Skopje
10 is organised along the following internal organisational systems."
11 Do you see that?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Can you briefly describe for us what is meant by the term
14 "internal affairs sector" within the organisation of the police and
15 Ministry of Interior.
16 A. Are you referring to the sector for Internal Affairs of the city
17 of Skopje?
18 Q. Yeah. Yes. But I'm asking in general what does a -- the term
19 "sector" mean within the organisation of the Ministry of Internal
21 A. I would not be able to explain to you that as an expert because as
22 you can see the sector, there are many more units where, for instance, the
23 Department of Analytics, sector for aliens, where usually it is the
24 uniformed police officer who were aware that such sectors exist, but they
25 don't have anything to do with those sectors.
1 The uniformed police officers work only on the tasks of
2 maintenance of public order and peace. With the redeployment by the
3 Minister or person authorised by them, a uniformed officer could work with
4 one of these departments or sectors, but could I not explain what a sector
5 is as an expert.
6 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, I am seeing from Mr. Tarculovski that
7 apparently is he not receiving translation or interpretation.
8 JUDGE PARKER: Could that matter be checked? It would appear that
9 neither accused is receiving translation. Thank you for letting us know.
10 MR. TARCULOVSKI: [Interpretation] We only hear the translation.
11 But when the witness is speaking, we cannot hear that through the
13 JUDGE PARKER: It appears the problem is now resolved. One of the
14 consequences perhaps of moving courtroom.
15 MR. SAXON: If we could turn to the very last page --
16 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, for Mr. Saxon.
17 MR. SAXON: If we could turn to the last page of this document,
19 Q. And, Witness M-037 --
20 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
21 MR. SAXON:
22 Q. Witness M-037, if you take a look at the bottom of that last page,
23 you see a stamp and the words, "Ministry of the Interior, Dosta Dimovska."
24 Do you see that?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. And the date, "26 January 2001, Skopje." Do you see that?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Just briefly, can you tell us who became Minister of the Interior
4 after Dosta Dimovska?
5 A. I think it was the Minister, Ljube Boskoski.
6 MR. SAXON: Your Honours, can we move into private session,
8 JUDGE PARKER: Private.
9 [Private session]
11 Pages 753-761 redacted. Private session.
8 [Open session]
9 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're in open session.
10 MR. SAXON: And, Your Honours, I'm going to perhaps move slightly
11 out of the order of the exhibits that are in your binders. If we can show
12 the photo that is actually in tab 20, please, which was Prosecution
13 Exhibit P15, and this is actually from page 23 of the court binder, photo
15 Q. Witness, do you see the uniforms depicted in this photograph?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Do you recognise these uniforms?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And can you tell us, please, in 2001 who, if anyone, was wearing
20 these kinds of uniforms?
21 A. These were worn by the uniformed part of the police; the reserve
22 force, the special officers, and the special police unit. At that period,
23 almost all police officers that were to -- that were going in the field
24 were wearing camouflage uniforms if we had them, because it happened at
25 one time when there was a shortage of camouflage uniforms.
1 Q. Are you able to tell us what the insignia on the sleeves that are
2 in the foreground of the photograph say?
3 A. "Police." That's on the right sleeve, and on the left is the
4 emblem of the police. That is on the left-hand side.
5 MR. SAXON: Your Honours, if we could now look at what you have at
6 tab 21, which is 65 ter number 199.17. It is photograph B on page 23 of
7 the court binder that you have.
8 Q. Witness, before we move on to discuss the next photograph, I need
9 to clarify something that you told us just a moment ago. You said that
10 these camouflage uniforms were worn by the uniformed part of the police;
11 the reserve force, the special officers, and the special police unit.
12 What do you mean by the "uniformed part of the police"? What do you mean
13 by that?
14 A. Uniformed part of the police? Well, all the things from
15 maintaining the public order are under the uniformed police and, usually,
16 uniforms are worn at the time, except for in special situation when the
17 police is wearing civilian clothes in order not to be recognised when
18 certain special tasks or actions are being performed.
19 Q. When you refer to the uniformed police, are you referring to
20 professional police officers?
21 A. When I speak about the uniformed police, I think that we are
22 talking about this period 2001, right?
23 Q. Yes.
24 A. I think of the professional police officers and the reserve police
1 Q. Thank you.
2 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
3 MR. SAXON: I apologise.
4 Q. If you take a look at the photograph that you now see in front of
5 you, these are patches on camouflage uniforms. Can you read to us what
6 these patches say?
7 A. "Republic of Macedonia, Police."
8 Q. And, in August of 2001, did you and your colleagues wear such
9 patches on your uniforms?
10 A. Yes.
11 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, I would seek to tender this photograph.
12 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
13 JUDGE PARKER: Do you mean both photographs, Mr. Saxon?
14 MR. SAXON: The prior photograph is already in evidence as P15.
15 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
16 MR. SAXON: So I would seek to tender this photograph.
17 JUDGE PARKER: This will be received.
18 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P35, Your Honours.
19 MR. SAXON:
20 Q. Witness 37, after receiving your orders on that morning, on the
21 12th of August, where did you go?
22 A. After we received the order, the team that was listed in the
23 order, we went to the checkpoints Straista, I think it was called, and
24 that's where we went.
25 Q. Approximately, how far from the village of Ljuboten is this
1 Straista check-point?
2 A. This is quite an extensive question. I cannot tell you anything
3 specific. Do you think about the first house? Maybe you think about the
4 fields that are in the vicinity of the village of Ljuboten?
5 Q. I apologise. My question should have been clearer.
6 Approximately, for example, how far would this check-point be,
7 say, from the mosque at the centre of Ljuboten, roughly? How many
9 A. Maybe around one kilometre, as the crow flies.
10 Q. And from this spot, were you able to observe the village?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Were you using your binoculars?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Do you recall, roughly, more or less, what time did you arrive at
15 this check-point?
16 A. I think it was around 8.00 or 8.30.
17 Q. When you arrived at this check-point, did you receive any
18 information about what was happening in the village of Ljuboten at that
20 A. Yes. I think until 7.00, according to the work order, Mihajlo
21 Dusko was at work and (redacted) from him, and I took it
22 there at the spot because I think that's where it was.
23 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, may we please move into private session.
24 JUDGE PARKER: Private.
25 [Private session]
11 Pages 766-775 redacted. Private session.
21 [Open session]
22 JUDGE PARKER: We must now adjourn for the first break and resume
23 at 11.00.
24 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, with great respect, could the Chamber
25 instruct the witness not to discuss his evidence during the break.
1 JUDGE PARKER: Why is that necessary.
2 MR. SAXON: Well, I know that the witness has not one but two
3 mobile phone calls with him, and it is possible he may receive a phone
5 JUDGE PARKER: You will understand, sir, that during your
6 evidence, you should not discuss your witness with any other person, that
7 is any person that you meet or by telephone or any other means. If you
8 could observe that. Thank you very much.
9 --- Recess taken at 10.33 a.m.
10 --- On resuming at 11.04 a.m.
11 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Saxon.
12 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, are we still in private session?
13 JUDGE PARKER: We're in public session.
14 MR. SAXON: All right. Can we move into private session, please.
15 JUDGE PARKER: Private.
16 [Private session]
11 Pages 778-790 redacted. Private session.
5 [Open session]
6 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're in open session.
7 JUDGE PARKER: It is necessary to adjourn for five or ten minutes.
8 We must do that and if the witness could be escorted immediately from the
10 --- Break taken at 11.47 a.m.
11 --- On resuming at 11.51 a.m.
12 JUDGE PARKER: We now continue, Mr. Saxon. We're in public
14 MR. SAXON:
15 Q. Witness, you mentioned that you saw three bodies. Do you know how
16 these three persons died?
17 A. Do I know?
18 Q. Yes, do you know?
19 A. No. I assume that it was the shooting that I saw previously.
20 Q. Do you know who shot these three people?
21 A. There was a small group of people who were by the road. I suppose
22 it was them.
23 Q. Can you be a bit more specific. Do you know where these people
24 came from?
25 A. Do you mean the murdered people?
1 Q. No. I mean the people who were shooting near the side of the
3 A. That was the group of uniformed people who have entered after me.
4 Q. When you say "who have entered," do you mean who have entered the
5 village of Ljuboten?
6 A. Yes. I'm referring to those who entered the village of Ljuboten.
7 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, can we please move into private session.
8 JUDGE PARKER: Private.
9 [Private session]
11 Pages 793-803 redacted. Private session.
1 [Open Session]
2 --- Recess taken at 12.31 p.m.
3 --- On resuming at 1.09 p.m.
4 JUDGE PARKER: I'm sorry that we were delayed coming in to court.
5 We are still trying to resolve some technical problems with e-court and
6 documents that should not go public, and I think there had been
7 discussions with counsel and we're gradually working out a procedure that
8 will be to the minimum inconvenience of counsel but will allow as much as
9 possible to go to the outside world.
10 Before we continue with the witness, we need for the record to
11 receive as an exhibit and have marked, firstly, the facts that have been
12 agreed as not in dispute between the Prosecution and the accused,
13 Mr. Boskoski. These were actually submitted in December of last year to
14 the Chamber; and, secondly, facts that have been agreed as not in dispute
15 between the Prosecution and Mr. Tarculovski, and that those facts are in a
16 document submitted on the 1st of February of this year.
17 So we will have those incorporated as two separate exhibits in the
18 record of the proceedings.
19 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibits P43 and P44, respectively, Your
21 [Trial Chamber confers]
22 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Saxon.
23 You now feel you have entirely spent your interest.
24 MR. SAXON: So to speak, Your Honour. I believe it's time now for
25 the start of cross-examination.
1 JUDGE PARKER: Ms. Residovic, I'm sorry to have delayed you this
3 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Your Honour.
4 Cross-examination by Ms. Residovic.
5 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. M-037. I'm Edina Residovic;
6 and together with my co-counsel Guenael Mettraux, I represent Mr. Ljube
8 Before I move on to my questions, Mr. M-037, I would like to ask
9 you to hear me out. I know that you understand the language that I speak,
10 B/C/S, and I understand Macedonian, the language that you speak. You
11 could answer all my questions very fast. However, my question and your
12 answer have to be interpreted so that the Honourable Trial Chamber and our
13 colleagues in the courtroom know what it is that I'm asking and what it is
14 you're answering. So could you kindly pause before answering my question.
15 Did you understand me?
16 A. Yes. All right.
17 Q. Thank you. Now, I would like to ask for closed session, because
18 of a few questions that have I in relation to the identity of the witness.
19 JUDGE PARKER: Private.
20 [Private session]
24 [Open session]
25 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
1 Q. The Mirkovci police station, as you said, was within the
2 municipality of Cair police station?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Within the department of the police of the municipality of Cair,
5 the civilian police work was organised as well as the uniformed police
6 work; is that right?
7 A. Yes, that is correct.
8 Q. In the Cair department of the police, there is actually an
9 operations section. That is the crime prevention police, and it employs
10 policemen who usually work in civilian clothes. To put it very simply,
11 they are engaged in the discovery of perpetrators of crimes, right?
12 A. Yes. I think it is not called crime prevention but criminalistic
13 police, as far I know.
14 Q. Thank you for that qualification. I think that would be a better
15 way of putting it, too.
16 In response to my colleague's question, you said that as for Cair,
17 there were two police stations: Mirkovci and Cair. There was -- so there
18 were two police stations. Is it true that after what happened in
19 Ljuboten, was there a reserve police station set in Kucevishte in
20 Ljubanci; is that right?
21 A. Yes. It is correct that a reserve police station was established
22 in Ljubanci, but I think that the premises of the reserve police station,
23 Ljubanci, were located at the bus station, in the village. These used to
24 be some municipal offices or something like a registrar's office of the
25 village. Otherwise, the school housed -- there were rooms there for both
1 of army and the police.
2 Q. Thank you. You have already said but let us say that once again,
3 that the immediate superior officer of all the employees in the police
4 station was the commander of the police station, and then your superior
5 was the head of the Interior in Cair; is that right?
6 A. Yes, that is correct. My direct superior was the commander and
7 above him was the head, Ljube Krstevski.
8 Q. Is it correct, Mr. M-037, that in actual fact the tasks and
9 responsibilities of the police were set out in the law, primarily the law
10 on the Interior, and in the field of crime, in the law on criminal
11 procedure of the Republic of Macedonia. Is that right?
12 A. Yes, that is correct.
13 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Now, I would like the witness to
14 be shown P33.
15 Q. This is the rule book regarding the organisation and work of the
16 Ministry of Interior that was shown to you by my colleague the Prosecutor.
17 A few moments ago you saw these rules. Do you remember that?
18 A. Yes. There is such a rule book.
19 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could page 2 please displayed.
20 Q. Before that, can we just set the record straight: You did
21 recognise the seal and the signature of Dosta Dimovska, the Minister, who
22 actually passed these rules; is that right?
23 A. Yes, as the one shown before, it is correct.
24 Q. So you can agree with me that that is part of the Minister's work,
25 to adopt general documents like the rules that we have right in front of
1 us now.
2 A. Yes, the Minister has that right.
3 Q. Could you now please look at Article 8 of these rules. It is
4 right in front of you now.
5 Is it correct that this Article establishes that in the area of
6 the Republic of Macedonia, sectors of Internal Affairs are organised
7 carrying out all police work in the territory of the Republic of
8 Macedonia. Is that correct?
9 A. Yes, that is correct. Then I believe there were 11. Now the
10 number will be reduced to 8 sectors or is yet to be reduced. I don't know
11 what is the situation at the moment.
12 Q. Is it correct that in the city of Skopje, which is at the same
13 time the capital of Macedonia and also the biggest city of Macedonia,
14 precisely because of the large amount of work involving, the sector for
15 the Interior is subdivided into departments of the Interior, in certain
16 municipalities of that city. Is that correct?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. This division of work in the city of Skopje in terms of these
19 departments is also clearly shown in these rules from Article 13 through
20 17 on page 3.
21 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have this
22 displayed, page 3.
23 A. Yes, it is correct.
24 Q. Is it correct, Mr. M-037, that in every department of the
25 Interior, in individual municipalities in Skopje, there is a section for
1 operations work, within which there is the crime investigation police,
2 which carries out all police work, as for that particular line of police
3 work. Is that right?
4 A. Yes, it is correct. And I also think that in the hierarchy of
5 things, the operational matters section has a greater importance than the
6 police stations.
7 Q. All departments of the Interior in the city of Skopje also have
8 the police stations mentioned in these rules. Is that correct as well?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Can you agree with me now, Mr. M-037, that in actual fact all the
11 tasks and responsibilities carried out by the police either in accordance
12 with the law on the Interior or the law on criminal procedure, that all
13 these tasks and responsibilities are actually carried out within the
14 sector of the Interior of the city of Skopje and the department of the
15 Interior of the municipalities within the city of Skopje. Is that right?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Is it also correct, Mr. M-037, that part of the employees of the
18 Ministry of Interior in every department and every sector of the Interior
19 are what is known as authorised officials?
20 A. Yes. Any person working in the department for Internal Affairs
21 are authorised.
22 Q. You were an authorised official, too, weren't you?
23 A. Just a bit of a clarification. We could not authorise the
24 secretaries to the commanders and the technical staff. They are not
25 authorised. Let's be clear about it. The remaining staff performing
1 tasks in the area of public order and peace and other tasks set out in the
2 law are authorised.
3 Q. Thank you. In actual fact all these authorised officials,
4 regardless of whether working in crime investigation police or in the
5 uniformed police, being authorised officials, they have the task, rights,
6 and responsibilities directly stemming from the law. Is that right?
7 A. Yes, that is correct. And the answer to the previous question is
8 yes, I was at that time authorised and I'm still an authorised officer.
9 Q. Thank you. Now, I would like to ask you something different,
10 Mr. M-037. If we look at these rules and the organisation of the sector
11 of the Ministry of Interior of Skopje, we could see under number 1, that
12 within the sector there was a duty operation centre that was organised.
13 This centre -- this type of centre was organised in all other sectors of
14 the Interior throughout the territory of Macedonia. Is that right?
15 A. Yes. In all sectors, there are duty operational centres.
16 Q. If there is any suspicion regarding a fact or an event, in terms
17 of the commission of a crime, you have already explained that the person,
18 the policeman who would learn of such a fact should first report to the
19 duty policeman in his own police station about that. Is that normal
21 A. Yes, it is the normal procedure and the hierarchy of the things
22 would dictate such a procedure.
23 Q. However, it would not be in contravention of the law if the
24 policeman would distinctly inform, say, the duty investigating judge of
25 the fact that he learned of something like that, that would not be in
1 contravention of the law either, right? Though it is it not customary,
2 although it is not the usual thing?
3 A. I don't know what is your purpose of mentioning the investigating
5 Q. Perhaps I should put question later, and then you will understand
6 why it is that I'm referring to the investigating judge.
7 Actually, could you tell me the following: The duty police
8 officer at the police station, if he finds out about some facts that the
9 policemen told him about, is he then the person who should inform the duty
10 operation centre about what it is that you had just learned?
11 A. Yes, that is the most appropriate person for communication with
12 the other services.
13 Q. Is it correct, Mr. M-037, that then the duty operations centre
14 immediately notifies the investigating judge of the court that is in
15 charge in relation of this fact that they learned of, right?
16 A. Yes. The duty operation centre of the city of Skopje has, and
17 that is the intention, to have coordination the other services in Skopje
18 and in the state.
19 Q. Can you agree with me that once the police acts in this order, as
20 you said, or rather that the duty operations centre informs the
21 investigating judge that there is a suspicion that a particular fact could
22 constitute a crime, that then all responsibilities are no longer set out
23 by the police, but by the investigating judge who was informed about the
24 said event. Is that correct?
25 A. You're asking a very long question. I could not follow you with
1 quality, and could not provide with a quality of responses.
2 Q. I do apologise. Let's take things one at a time.
3 If a policeman sees as dead body in the street, you have already
4 said that he informs his duty police officer at the police station about
5 that, and then he in turn should inform the duty operation centre about
6 that fact, right?
7 A. Yes, that is correct. And besides that information line, he
8 should also inform the commander.
9 Q. According to the law, the duty operation centre, in respect of
10 this fact if this is a crime or something that is suspected of having been
11 a crime, has to inform the court, the judge. Is that the usual procedure
12 in Macedonia?
13 A. Yes, that is the usual procedure. The investigating judge is
14 informed, and then they decide whether they would go at the scene of the
15 crime or not.
16 Q. Very well. You have just given an answer to my previous question
17 then. So now it is for the investigating judge to decide what will be
18 done further. If you are following now, what I'm saying, could you please
19 tell me whether you agree with this procedure: The investigating judge
20 can decide not to go to the crime scene, and the judge can authorise the
21 police to carry out the on-site investigation on their own. Is that one
22 of the possibilities?
23 A. Yes, it is correct. They give us instructions for our further
25 Q. The investigating judge can, if the scene is far away from the
1 premises of the court, can notify a judge from a court that is closer to
2 the actual scene; and then this other investigating judge can go out to
3 the crime scene. So can this other investigating judge become authorised
4 in this way, in accordance with the law?
5 A. I'm not really familiar with the competences the court has, but I
6 suppose that this might happen.
7 Q. The investigating judge can decide to go to the scene himself or
8 herself and to carry out the on-site investigation; and then he, the
9 investigating judge, sets up an investigation team that is supposed to
10 carry out the investigation. Is that right?
11 A. Yes, that is the regular procedure.
12 Q. In that situation, when the investigating judge decides to go to
13 the scene himself or herself, then the police acts in accordance with the
14 orders issued by the investigating judge and gives him the assistance that
15 he seeks. Is that right?
16 A. Yes. We assist them in the crime scene investigation.
17 Q. None of the authorised officers can order the judge what he is
18 going to do, once he comes to the scene, in terms of what he is going to
19 do and how he is going to carry out the investigation?
20 A. Yes. They have the undisputed right to decided with regard to the
21 a specific act --
22 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters ask that the speakers not
24 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation].
25 Q. According to the law of the Republic of Macedonia, it is only the
1 investigating judge that can decide to have a post-mortem carried out on
2 the bodies that were perhaps found on the premise or at the scene. Is
3 that right?
4 A. I don't know whether it is only the investigating judge, but I
5 know that the investigating judge can order a post-mortem.
6 Q. So, all decisions as to whether how and when an investigation will
7 be carried out at the scene are made by the investigating judge who was
8 informed by the police in the first place?
9 A. Yes, it is correct. And then they give us feedback about the
10 decisions they have made about the event on which they were informed.
11 Q. As for the authorised officers in the police who are assisting the
12 investigating judge, is it their duty only to compile an Official Note on
13 what they had done, right?
14 A. I'm not sure if they have the duty to compile an Official Note. I
15 don't think this is their duty or obligation. If the judge would perform
16 the crime scene investigation, it is our task to assist them, and that's
18 Q. Thank you.
19 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, may I just have a
20 moment to see whether we're in private session or not.
21 JUDGE PARKER: We're in public.
22 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we then now move into
23 private session, please.
24 JUDGE PARKER: Private.
25 [Private session]
11 Pages 816-817 redacted. Private session.
1 [Open session]
2 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. Is it correct that in 2001 the situation in Mirkovci and in Cair
4 was complicated because of the crisis caused by terrorist attacks and
5 Albanian extremist attacks?
6 A. Yes. As you know, the first incident with the terrorist groups
7 took place precisely at the territory of the Mirkovci police station, that
8 comprises also the village of Tanusevci. It is there where the first
9 information about presence of terrorist groups came when they kidnapped or
10 held captive journalists of TV station.
11 Q. Is it correct that in that area, but in other areas as well,
12 especially Kumanovo, Tetovo, these extremist Albanian groups particularly
13 attacked police station, police patrol, and patrolling the area became
14 increasingly dangerous. Is that right?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Can you agree with me, Mr. M-037, when I say that the area of your
17 police station, on the other hand, was of exceptional importance for the
18 overall security of the city of Skopje. Is that right?
19 A. Well, not only Skopje, there is a corridor from the village of
20 Tanusevci to the village of Brest. And on a very short section of the
21 road, certain terrorist groups could use this road to transport certain
22 quantity of weapons, drugs. They could also traffic people. That is the
23 road that is the mountain, Skopska Crna Gora mountain, that would come
24 from Brest to Skopje and Kumanovo; not directly Skopje and Kumanovo, but
25 the entire territory of the Republic of Macedonia.
1 Q. On the basis of what you said just now in your answer, I can
2 infer, and you tell me whether you agree with this or not, that the crisis
3 areas of Tetovo and Kumanovo and the closeness of the border and the
4 possibility of having all of this linked up, that all of this put together
5 further complicated the security not only of Skopje but all of Macedonia.
6 Is that right?
7 A. Yes, it is correct. Even from the other side of the Skopska Crna
8 Gora mountain, the village of Matejce is located; and I suppose that the
9 mortar of a larger calibre could even reach and cause damage at the
10 territory of Skopje, specifically Ljubanci and Ljuboten, that part of it.
11 Q. This kind of security situation, even before the incidents in
12 Ljuboten, brought about a decision passed by the army of Macedonia that
13 they deploy their forces on the Skopska Crna Gora and especially around
14 the village ever Ljuboten. Is that right?
15 A. Yes, it is correct. There were many members of the army above the
16 village of Ljuboten, above Ljubanci, in general in many positions at the
17 Skopska Crna Gora mountain, and it is considered that they are of vital
18 importance for the defence of the state.
19 Q. Because of this overall situation that your area was in, it is
20 with special attention that you received all information that described
21 the state of affairs in Ljuboten itself; not only you, but all of your
22 colleagues, all the policemen in Cair. Is that right?
23 A. Could you please repeat the question.
24 Q. In view of this kind of a security situation that you described
25 previously, is it not correct that all of you policemen in the
1 municipality of Cair and in your police station paid particular attention
2 to information about movements of the KLA and the situation in Ljuboten?
3 A. Yes. At Ljuboten, since this is the only Albanian village apart
4 from Tanusevci that is very far away, of course, we had valid information
5 that evidence that certain terrorist groups are stationed in the village
6 of Ljuboten, that an improvised infirmary, field hospital was stationed
7 there or under preparation already. And there were information about
8 movements of people who were transporting weapons from Kosovo to Ljuboten
9 using the corridor Tanusevci/Skopska Crna Gora, the entrance into
11 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters ask that the Judge's microphone is
12 switched off.
13 JUDGE PARKER: Ms. Residovic, I have tried to let you run on to
14 get what you are reaching, but we're now about five minutes over time. I
15 am afraid we must stop there, even though I can see you're still dealing
16 with an important issue.
17 We need to go into public session. Are we in public? Yes.
18 I'm sorry we must interrupt you, and we must now adjourn and we
19 resume tomorrow at 9.00 a.m.
20 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.50 p.m.,
21 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 15th day of May,
22 2007, at 9.00 a.m.