1 Wednesday, 20 June 2007

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 2.21 p.m.

6 JUDGE PARKER: Good afternoon.

7 May I remind you, Doctor, of the affirmation you made at the

8 beginning of your evidence which still applies.

9 Mr. Mettraux.

10 WITNESS: ZLATKO JAKOVSKI [Resumed]

11 [Witness answered through interpreter]

12 Cross-examination by Mr. Mettraux: [Continued]

13 MR. METTRAUX: Thank you, Your Honour.

14 Q. Good afternoon, Doctor.

15 A. Good afternoon.

16 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... Last night I finished by

17 showing you a report or information prepared and written by Prosecutor

18 Dzikov to which your own report was attached. Do you recall that?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. I'd like to show the witness another document that is 1D233 with

21 an ERN 1D00-2536. Around it is in the English only.

22 Doctor, you will find it under tab 28 in your binder.

23 If I can ask you first to look at the first page of that

24 document. You will see some -- a report again concerning the criminal

25 aggression on the Republic of Macedonia. It comes from the public

1 prosecution office of the Republic of Macedonia and at the bottom you

2 have a date for that document which is the 20th of November, 2001.

3 And in between you have a list of documents which are included in that

4 report.

5 Can you see that?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And if you look at the last item before the date, it says:

8 "Institute for forensic medicine and criminalistic. Can you see that?

9 A. Yes.

10 MR. METTRAUX: And if I may ask the registry to turn to ERN

11 N000-0162 and that is also 1D00-2562 .

12 Q. Would you agree, sir, that again this is the same information

13 that I showed you last night from Mr. Dzikov?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And if the registry can turn to page 1D2565.

16 Doctor, do you recognise your own report once again?

17 A. Yes, this is my report.

18 Q. Thank you.

19 MR. METTRAUX: Your Honour, at this stage we don't intend to

20 tender this document. We're going to use it again with another witness at

21 a later stage. Doctor, I'd ask to you turn tab 30 in your binder. That

22 is Exhibit 1D6, with an N00-2350 ET in the English version and N000-7350

23 in the Macedonian.

24 Sir if I may draw your attention to the top left-hand corner of

25 the document you will see that it is written: "Basic Court Skopje II

1 investigation department and there's a number, 579/01 with a date of the

2 15th of August 2001, Skopje, and it is an Official Note.

3 Can you see that?

4 A. Yes.

5 MR. METTRAUX: If I may ask the registry to turn to the next page

6 in both languages.

7 Q. You will see that this Official Note has been signed by

8 investigative Judge Ognen Stavrev. Is that correct?

9 A. Yes.

10 MR. METTRAUX: If I may ask the registry to go back to the first

11 page again.

12 Q. I'd ask to you look at the first paragraph, sir. The following is

13 recorded: "On the 14 August 2001 at 1330, the duty investigation judge

14 was informed by MVR SVR duty operation centre in Skopje that according to

15 the information they had in the area of Ljuboten village. There were

16 several dead bodies probably of murdered members of the terrorist

17 organisation NLA killed during military activities with the security

18 forces of Republic of Macedonia on 12 August 2001."

19 Can you see that?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Then the following is recorded in the next paragraph: "The

22 investigative Judge Ognen Stavrev, deputy public prosecutor Milan Galevski

23 and Dr. Zlatko Jakovski from the Forensic Institute and criminology

24 arrived at the police station Cair, Skopje, already at 1400 where

25 officials from the MVR, Ministry of Interior crime police were present,

1 led by the head of the section, Ruse Stamatovski, but no site

2 investigation took place because the head of the OVR Cair, Ljube

3 Krstevski,, had told them that the security forces could not guarantee

4 them safety or, more precisely, the security forces had not entered

5 Ljuboten village and that one could still hear shootings from the

6 village."

7 Sir, stopping for a second, is that consistent with your own

8 recollection of these events on the 14th?

9 A. Yes, it is consistent.

10 Q. Then Judge Stavrev goes on to say this: "At 1530 the

11 investigation officials left the police station Cair after they had been

12 informed about the security conditions in Ljuboten village."

13 Again, sir, is that consistent with your evidence?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Then Judge Stavrev records the following: "At 1615 on the same

16 day, the duty investigative judge was informed that at that moment he

17 could conduct site investigation in Ljuboten village regarding the

18 above-mentioned case. The duty judge was informed by the head of the OVR

19 Cair, Ljube Krstevski, the safety in the village is being guaranteed by

20 the member of the parliament, Mr. Fatmir Etemi, so the duty judge, Ognen

21 Stavrev, duty public prosecutor, Milan Galevski, and Dr. Zlatko - I think

22 it's been misspelled with an - Jatrovski from the Forensic Institute and

23 Criminology. At about 1700, came again at the police station Cair where

24 the same team of the Ministry of Interior crime technique officials was

25 present together with a team leader, Ruse Stamtovski.

1 Can you see that?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And is that consistent with your recollection of those events?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Judge Stavrev goes on to say this: But they did not go to conduct

6 site investigation again. Actually, the head of OVR Cair, Ljube

7 Krstevski, informed them again that the situation in Ljuboten had changed

8 again, some shootings had started again and that the above-mentioned

9 member of the parliament, Mr. Fatmir Etemi had left the place.

10 "At the same time, the head, Krstevski, informed that there is

11 information from citizens that the dead bodies of the people killed in

12 Ljuboten village were already buried on several places in the village and

13 around it by unknown people."

14 Again, sir, is that consistent with your own recollection of those

15 events?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Judge Stavrev goes on to record the following: "The head of OVR

18 Cair Ljube Krstevski had stressed again that the security forces of the

19 Republic of Macedonia could not guarantee the safety of the investigation

20 authorities because in the above-mentioned village one could hear shooting

21 again and members of the security forces of the Republic of Macedonia were

22 not present in the village, in Ljuboten village."

23 Can you see that?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. "The head of OVR had also informed the investigation authorities

1 that according to the information he had, at the police check-point in

2 front of Ljuboten village there was OSCE vehicle and their members wanted

3 to visit the place of the event."

4 Were you aware of the presence of the OSCE at the time or is that

5 something that you don't know?

6 A. According to my recollections, I remember that people were saying

7 that there were some OSCE representatives there.

8 Q. Thank you.

9 MR. METTRAUX: And if I may ask the registry to move on to the

10 next page in both languages.

11 Q. The next thing Judge Stavrev is saying is: "Because of the

12 above-mentioned reasons no site investigation was conducted."

13 Can you see that?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And then it goes on to add a paragraph about events in Ljuboten

16 and Ljubanci and there I have a clarification to ask you. Perhaps I can

17 get some more clarity about this. He mentions having contacted deputy

18 public prosecutor Rosko Karava in relation to the events of the 12th of

19 August, and I will just like to clarify with you whether on the 12th it

20 was Prosecutor Galevski who was with you or this Prosecutor. We

21 understand that Mr. Galevski was the prosecutor on the 14th and on the

22 12th can you recall if it was Mr. Galevski or Rosko Karava?

23 A. On the 12th I only receive a phone call regarding the event by the

24 Judge Ognen Stavrev. And whether the Prosecutor on call was Rosko Karava,

25 I'm not quite aware. I know that when we went to the police station Ognen

1 Stavrev was there and the prosecutor Milan Galevski.

2 Q. Thank you for that. Then the investigative judge notes the

3 following: "The investigative judge was also informed that the safety of

4 the investigation authorities of the court and public prosecutor --

5 Prosecution was not guaranteed because of the clashes that were still

6 going on, so that is why no investigation activities were undertaken.

7 More precisely, because of the military clashes that were still going on

8 between above-mentioned paramilitary formations and security forces of the

9 Republic of Macedonia."

10 Can you see that?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Then Judge Stavrev notes that also the director of the Forensic

13 Institute and Criminology, Dr. Aleksej Duma was informed about this

14 situation. Can you see that?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Thank you. I would like to show you another document, Doctor, if

17 I may. That's Prosecution Rule 65 ter 153 with an ERN N000-7344-ET and

18 for the Macedonian version it is N000-7344. Doctor, that is tab 31 of

19 your binder.

20 As can you see, it is, once again, an Official Note. On the top

21 left-hand corner it refers to basic public prosecution and a number 653/01

22 and it is dated 15 August of 2001. And if you look at the bottom of that

23 page, you will see that it is signed by Milan Galevski. Is that correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And under the title Official Note it is written "prepared by Milan

1 Galevski, deputy public prosecutor and duty public prosecutor on 14 August

2 2001." Is that correct?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. If I may go through this document with you as well. The first

5 paragraph says the following: "After being informed by the competent

6 investigative judge of the Basic Court Skopje II in the premises of OVR

7 Cair an investigation group was established to conduct site investigation

8 in Ljuboten village Skopje."

9 Can you see that?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. It goes on to say: "Where, according to information given by

12 unidentified person from the same village, five dead bodies had been

13 found."

14 Can you see that?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Then Prosecutor Galevski goes on to say: "After two hours of

17 discussions about the measures that the investigation group should take

18 and coordination with the security measures, as well as inspecting new

19 information, the head of UVR Cair informed us that in the village there

20 are five dead bodies but the precise location is unknown because apart

21 from the civilian population, ethnic Albanians, no representatives of the

22 security forces are stationed there to guarantee the security of the

23 investigation group. They are only two police check-points around the

24 village, but there are also groups of terrorists with sniper guns and

25 infantry fire-arms."

1 Can you see that?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Then he goes on to say: "Because of this situation on the ground,

4 we agreed with the competent investigative judge to cancel the site

5 investigation."

6 Can you see that?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... Consistent with your

9 recollection of the events?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Then Prosecutor Galevski says that: "On the same day at 1630 we

12 were again at the same place coordinated with all of the members of the

13 investigation group after waiting for one hour for additional information,

14 but the factual situation in the village that the additional security

15 measures because of military activities of the terrorists, the next

16 information of the head of the OVR Cair was that the dead bodies are

17 buried by the Albanian population in Ljuboten village."

18 Again is that consistent with your recollection of those events?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And Prosecutor Galevski goes on to conclude the following: "These

21 facts indicates the following matters. There is no dead body, the place

22 where the event took place is not safe, no guarantees about the physical

23 security of the investigation group because the security forces of the

24 police and army are not controlling the area in Ljuboten village and

25 that's why in agreement with the investigative judge we cancelled the site

1 investigation for the second time."

2 Can you see that?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And again, is that consistent with the information you were given

5 at the time?

6 A. Yes.

7 MR. METTRAUX: Your Honour, we would wish to tender this document.

8 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

9 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit 1D72, Your Honours.

10 MR. METTRAUX:

11 Q. Sir, do you recall being asked by my colleague about the

12 exhumation in Ljuboten which took place in April of 2002?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And is that correct that you personally were involved in this

15 matter?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Is it correct, sir, that the only valid scientific way to

18 establish the cause and circumstances of death is to exhume and autopsy a

19 body, exhume if it has been buried, that is?

20 A. Yes. This is the only scientific way to prove it.

21 Q. Are you aware, sir, that after the events of Ljuboten there were a

22 number of preparatory meetings organised to prepare for the exhumation in

23 Ljuboten?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Could the witness please be shown P55 with an ERN ETN

1 002-1148-N002-1148-1 that is under tab 32 of your binders, and the

2 Macedonian version is N002-1146-003.

3 Is that correct, sir, that under the law of Macedonia only the

4 prosecutor or the investigating judge may ask for an exhumation to take

5 place?

6 A. The investigative judge gives an order for an exhumation upon an

7 proposal from a deputy public prosecutor.

8 Q. Thank you. If I may ask to you look at the document that have you

9 now in front of you, as you can see, it is a proposal on undertaking

10 certain investigative actions. Can you see that?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And it comes from the basic public prosecution office with a

13 number 1098/01 and it is dated 10 September 2001 can you see that?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And it has been sent to the Basic Court Skopje II investigative

16 judge. Can you see that?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... At the bottom of that

19 document it is signed by deputy public prosecutor Mr. Dragoljub Cakic.

20 Can you see that?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. I now ask to you focus your attention on the content of that

23 document. It says that on 11 and 12 August 2001 an action for a

24 neutralisation and breaking up of the members of the terrorist gang part

25 of the so-called NLA in the region of the village of Ljuboten and its

1 surroundings was taken by the security forces of the Republic of

2 Macedonia."

3 Can you see that?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. It goes on to say: "Two days after the completion of the said

6 action on 14 August 2001, the investigative judge of Basic Court Skopje II

7 on duty and the deputy basic public prosecutor from Skopje on duty were

8 notified by the Ministry of Interior regarding five bodies found in the

9 village of Ljuboten. However, the inspection was not conducted out of

10 security reasons. Thus, the five bodies were buried in the local cemetery

11 in the village of Ljuboten without determining the identities of these

12 persons, the cause the death, the time of death, and the circumstances

13 under which death occurred and without permission of the competent

14 bodies."

15 Can you see that?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And, again, is that consistent with your recollection of these

18 events?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Then the deputy public prosecutor says this: "The public

21 prosecution office in relation to this case acting pursuant to Article

22 148, paragraph 1 of the Code of Criminal Procedure, and upon the written

23 initiative of the Ministry of Interior, which has been handed to this

24 title during duty outside of regular working hours on 7 September 2001,

25 gives a proposal on undertaking certain investigation actions, namely as

1 follows."

2 Can you see that?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And the proposal of the Prosecution is this: "In order to

5 determine the identity of the five persons buried on 14 August 2001 in the

6 local cemetery in the village of Ljuboten, to determine the cause of the

7 death, time of death and circumstances under which death occurred, and so

8 as to perform an examination and cross-section of their bodies to order

9 the investigation action-exhumation in accordance with Article 244 of the

10 criminal -- of the Code of Criminal Procedure."

11 Can you see that?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And the last proposal of Prosecutor Cakic is to say: "The

14 exhumation and afterward the examination and cross-section are to be

15 assigned to the Institute of Forensic Medicine and Criminology with the

16 medical faculty in Skopje."

17 Can you see that?

18 A. Yes.

19 MR. METTRAUX: Could the witness please be shown P99. It is

20 N000-0162 and in the Macedonian N000-0599. And if the registry could --

21 well ...

22 Q. Once again, sir, this is the information which I have shown you

23 twice which have been signed by Prosecutor Dzikov, and I will ask the

24 registry to move to the third page of that document, please. It is tab

25 27.

1 Doctor, there is a paragraph starting with the words "since the

2 bodies were already." Can you locate that in the Macedonian version?

3 A. I can see that.

4 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... Read it out to you in the

5 English version. Stavre Dzikov says this: "Since the bodies were already

6 buried and there was no autopsy done over them, in accordance to Article

7 244, paragraphs 1 and 2 of the criminal procedure law, the public

8 prosecutor on the basis of Article 148, paragraph 1 of the coded law

9 submitted a proposal to the competent magistrate judge for certain

10 investigative measures to be taken for an exhumation, examination, and an

11 autopsy of the bodies in order to confirm the identity of the buried --

12 the five buried bodies, the reasons of the death, time of the death, and

13 the circumstances in which the death appeared. It was proposed that this

14 procedure is carried out by the Forensic and Criminalistic Institute

15 within the faculty of medicine in Skopje.

16 Sir, is that consistent with the previous document that I showed

17 to you which was prepared by Prosecutor Cakic?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Is that correct that shortly thereafter, sir, there was in fact a

20 meeting organised in relation to this exhumation which was attended by

21 Professor Duma?

22 A. I remember there have been several meetings. I don't know who

23 participated at those meetings.

24 Q. Well, I'd like to focus at this stage on one particular meeting.

25 MR. METTRAUX: And if the witness could be shown exhibit 1D46 with

1 an ERN 1D00-1948.

2 Q. And, Doctor, it is under your tab number 33.

3 Sir, if I may draw your attention on the top of the document it is

4 a Official Note with the number 601/01. Can you see that?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. It's signed by investigating judge Dragan Nikolovski; is that

7 correct?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. The content of the Official Note is as follows. It says

10 that: "On 14 September 2001 and due to my request, a meeting was held on

11 the premises of the director of the Institute for Forensics and

12 Criminology which was attended by the director of the institute

13 Dr. Aleksej Duma, the deputy public prosecutor, Dragoljub Cakic, the head

14 of the forensics sector in GUVR Skopje Simeon Zidrovski, and the head of

15 the department for offences against body and limb of GUVR Skopje, Besim

16 Ramicovic and myself." That would be Mr. Nikolovski. Can you see that?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And then it goes on to say the following: "It was regarding the

19 proposal for exhumation, including examination and autopsy of the five

20 corpses which had been found in the village of Ljuboten on 14 August

21 2001."

22 Can you see that?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And it goes on to say: "And buried on the local cemetery on the

25 same day by the local population."

1 And then he notes: "The proposal has been submitted by the basic

2 public prosecutor's office in "Skopje."

3 Can you see that?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And that is consistent with the previous documents I have shown

6 you, isn't it?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Judge Nikolovski then goes on to say this: "At the same time, it

9 was agreed that in order for these activities to be successfully

10 undertaken, it will be necessary that additional data is gathered

11 regarding the identity of the buried persons, the location of the graves,

12 the time of burial, as well as other data and reporting, also with regard

13 to the security conditions needed for the undertaking of such

14 investigating activities and with a view on the actual security situation

15 in the area."

16 Can you see that?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And do you recall Professor Duma expressing serious security

19 concern about this matter for he and his team if they were to go to the

20 village of Ljuboten?

21 A. Yes. And before going there for the exhumation and during the

22 exhumation itself.

23 Q. Thank you.

24 MR. METTRAUX: I'd like this witness to be shown another document

25 which is Prosecution Rule 65 ter 419 and it has an ERN range of

1 N005-0754-N005-075-ET.

2 Q. Sir, it is unfortunately not in your binder but is it is on your

3 screen now.

4 As you can see, this is again an Official Note but this one coming

5 from the Ministry of Interior, criminal police, and it is submitted by

6 Simeon Zidrovski and Besim Ramicovic and it is dated 18 September 2001.

7 Can you see that?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And then it is dispatched to a number of institution, which you

10 can see. Can you see that?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. As you can see, it seems to be a record of the same meeting with a

13 bit more detail. So I'm going to go through it with you. It again

14 records that on 14 September 2001 the consultation meeting instigated by

15 the investigative judge of Lower Court Skopje II, Dragan Nikolovski, was

16 held in the premises of the Forensic Medicine and Criminology Institute in

17 order to discuss the undertaking of measures in accordance with Article

18 244 of the Law on Criminal Procedure for the exhumation and autopsy of

19 individuals buried in the village of Ljuboten who died during the military

20 operations that took place in the area."

21 Would you agree, sir, that it seems to be a record of this same

22 meeting?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Then goes on to list of individuals were present during the

25 meeting. It was Dr. -- Should be Professor Duma, Aleksej, director of the

1 Forensic Medicine and Criminology Institute; Dr. Biljana Janevska,

2 post-mortem examiner; Dragan Nikolovski, investigative judge of the Lower

3 Court Skopje II; Dragan Cakic, deputy public prosecutor, Ramicovic Besim,

4 head of the homicide department in the general criminal sector; and

5 Mr. Simeon Zidrovski, head of the identification department in the

6 criminal technology sector.

7 Can you see that?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Then the Official Note records that Mr. Nikolovski, the

10 investigative judge, informed those present that Ministry of Interior,

11 MVR, had notified the public prosecutor's office in Skopje of the armed

12 operation undertaken in the area of the village of Ljuboten by the

13 security forces and had recommended the initiation of measures for the

14 exhumation and autopsy of the casualties."

15 Can you see that?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Then it goes on to say: "In accordance with the notification,

18 deputy public prosecutor Dragan Cakic, dispatched a recommendation to

19 investigative Judge Nikolovski who called for the meeting with the aim of

20 reaching agreement on the methods and means for the realisation of the

21 investigation."

22 Can you see that?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And then it records something attributed to doctor again--

25 Professor Aleksej Duma who is recorded as affirming his willingness to

1 effect the exhumation and autopsy following the previously received order

2 from the investigative judge and also stated that in order to avoid any

3 subsequent manipulation of the autopsy results of the buried remains in

4 the village of Ljuboten, he will arrange for supervisors to be present

5 during the investigation in the form of competent individuals from the

6 Skopje office of The Hague Tribunal.

7 Can you see that?

8 A. Yes.

9 MR. METTRAUX: Could the registry turn to the next page, please.

10 Q. So the next comment, sir, seems to be also being a record of what

11 Professor Duma says. It says: "With this mind the institute will provide

12 all the necessary resources for the completion of the investigation on the

13 condition that the public prosecutor and the investigating judge use

14 Ministry of Interior to safely secure the place of the exhumation and that

15 all information with regard to the exhumation emanate from one source."

16 Can you see that?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Then it goes on to say: "Due to the need for MVR involvement in

19 the operation, in accordance with the law, we advise the investigative

20 judge and the deputy public prosecutor to dispatch a request to the

21 Ministry of Interior for additional information regarding the exhumation

22 and autopsy recommendation."

23 Can you see that?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. The information requested from the ministry will concern the

1 identity of those buried, the location of the graves, the time of burial,

2 the acquisition of statements from the individuals that performed the

3 burial, statements from family members of the deceased as well as other

4 reports, data and written materials."

5 Can you see that?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And then the next paragraph, there's a request which

8 says: "Furthermore, in connection with the request, a security evaluation

9 will be required on the possibility of conducting the operation."

10 Can you see that?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And the last paragraph of that document reads as follows: "The

13 investigative judge accepted our suggestion and it will be realised

14 accordingly. He then stated the need for another meeting between

15 representative of the MOI or the MVR and the institute, who will be

16 responsible for specific tasks intended for the realisation of the

17 investigation such as suggesting a time for conducting the investigation

18 in accordance with the security conditions on the ground."

19 Can you see that?

20 A. Yes.

21 MR. METTRAUX: Your Honour, we would wish to tender this document.

22 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

23 THE REGISTRAR: As exhibit 1D73, Your Honours.

24 MR. METTRAUX: Could the witness please be shown what is now

25 Exhibit P104.

1 Q. Again, sir, I apologise, this document is not in your binder.

2 Do you have it in front of you?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. If I may draw your attention to the top left-hand corner of that

5 document, it says: "Ministry of Internal Affairs of the Republic of

6 Macedonia, sector for internal affairs Skopje, department for internal

7 affairs-OOR Cair and it is submitted by someone called Dejan Bladzevski

8 [phoen] and it is dated 15 November, 2001.

9 Can you see that?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And it is an Official Note number 735 and the subject of it is a

12 conversation conducted with a person Kenan Salievski.

13 Can you see that?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And the Official Note records the following: "On 15 November

16 2001, at the department for internal affairs Cair, after a previous

17 invitation by telephone, the person Kenan Salievski came, born on 25

18 February 1957, at the village Ljuboten."

19 Can you see that?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Then the note records a conversation: "A conversation was carried

22 out with him in connection with the deceased persons in the village

23 Ljuboten on 12 August 2001 and about the funeral. And all this upon the

24 request of the Basic Court Skopje II investigation department."

25 Can you see that?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Goes on to say this: "In the conversation, Kenan Salievski said

3 that he is a member of the village board in village Ljuboten and that he

4 has a complete documentation as for the deceased -- as for the deceased as

5 for the person that buried the deceased."

6 Can you see that?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. To the question whether he can tell the identity of the deceased,

9 he said that by heart he cannot remember them all. But he has them all on

10 a list and that it is not a problem at all for him to bring the list of

11 the deceased as well as the people who buried them.

12 Can you see that?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And the note goes on to say this: "Therefore, it was agreed upon

15 that he was to come the following day, on 16 November 2001, and to bring

16 the complete list."

17 Can you see that?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And then the next thing this note records is this: "On 16

20 November 2001, Kenan Salievski called us at the department for internal

21 affairs Cair by telephone and told us that after having consulted the

22 village board from the village Ljuboten, he cannot give us any information

23 about the event or about the deceased persons."

24 Can you see that?

25 A. Yes.

1 MR. METTRAUX: Could the registry now show exhibit 1D41 to this

2 witness.

3 Q. Sir, that is tab 29 in your binder.

4 You've said earlier that you could recall a number of meetings in

5 relation to the exhumation in Ljuboten in which Professor Duma had taken

6 part. Can you recall saying that?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. I'd like to turn your attention to one particular meeting, which

9 took place on the 30th of January, 2002. Can you recall this particular

10 meeting?

11 A. I shall read it? I don't know.

12 Q. Read the top of the page from you. This is a record made by EUMM

13 of a particular meeting that took place on 30th of January 2002. As you

14 can see, the title of the document is Ljuboten case, ICTY investigation

15 and it is dated 30 January 2002.

16 Can you see that?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And it records the following: "On 30 January 2002, EUMM attended

19 a meeting at the public prosecution department regarding events in

20 Ljuboten on 10-12 August 2001. Among those present were public prosecutor

21 Dragoljub Cakic; Professor Aleksej Duma of the department of forensic

22 medicine; and president of appelation court, Ms. Filomena Manevska;

23 Mr. Andre Cilic [phoen] of the ICTY; Ambassador Klaus Folers of NATO.

24 EUMM and OSCE represented the international community. Public prosecutor

25 Mr. Stavre Dzikov chaired the meeting."

1 Can you see that?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. I'd like to draw your attention to a passage further down in the

4 document, which is in the third full paragraph of that document started

5 with the words "Ambassador Folers." Can you see that?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. It read as follows: "Ambassador Folers raised the issue of

8 investigating what actually happened, if crimes were committed, and if so,

9 by who, would be held responsible. Mr. Dzikov, avoiding giving a straight

10 answer to the question, claiming the investigation -- investigating teams

11 were ready to enter the village on 12 and 14 August but had been prevented

12 from doing so."

13 Can you see that?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And again is that consistent generally with what you have told us

16 before?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Sir, there is another document which I would like to show you at

19 this stage. It is document 1D9. It's in English only, sir, and again

20 this is a document we haven't had the time to put it in your binders

21 yesterday, so we have it here. I will read it to you.

22 This is an investigator's note taken by the investigator of the

23 Office of the Prosecutor and it's dated 8 March 2002 and if you look at

24 the top of that document there's a small title saying purpose. Can you

25 see that?

1 A. All of it or only confidential?

2 Q. Well, if you go down three line you will see there's a little

3 heard saying "purpose, meeting with representatives of the families of the

4 deceased from Ljuboten, Republic of Macedonia, to discuss the operational

5 plan for the exhumation at the cemetery at the village of Ljuboten."

6 Can you see that?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. If you go downwards there is a date, the 8th of March, 2002 and a

9 location, the municipal school building in Ljuboten.

10 Can you see that?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And then goes on to list the people present and there is a number

13 of people from the village crisis committee, representatives of the family

14 of the deceased, OSCE representatives, and two ICTY people.

15 Can you see that?

16 A. Yes.

17 MR. METTRAUX: If I can ask the registry to turn to the next page

18 of that document.

19 Q. If I may draw your attention to the second paragraph of that

20 document, which says this: "This meeting was arranged by Emil Smith, head

21 of mission, Pristina/Skopje as the first of such meetings to discuss the

22 proposed exhumation of the relatives of the deceased who were killed

23 during offensive conducted in the village of Ljuboten by the Macedonian

24 security forces during August of 2001."

25 Can you see that?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. It says in the next paragraph: "The main meeting was preceded by

3 the representatives of the OSCE and ICTY having a discussion with the

4 'crisis committee' comprising of 'elders' from the village of Ljuboten."

5 Can you see that?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And then if you can go down to the last paragraph on that

8 document, the following is recorded: "There was initial resistance by the

9 spokesperson of the crisis committee, Mr. Saliu Kenan about the

10 involvement of the Republic of Macedonia agencies. Feelings were

11 obviously running high and there was talk of non-cooperation by the

12 villagers. However, after further discussion, they all agreed their

13 support for the investigation."

14 Can you see that?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And then if we could move to the next page of that document.

17 Several paragraphs discussing details of the operation and then there's

18 paragraph -- paragraph number 8, 7 on that document which starts

19 with "anyway," which says that, "Anyway, the bodies remaining in storage

20 at the institute until the process it completed was not acceptable to the

21 families of the deceased."

22 Can you see that?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And then Mr. Tucker records the following: "They still carry a

25 huge mistrust of anything Macedonian."

1 Can you see that?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And then at the end of these notes, Mr. Tucker notes

4 that: "Agreement was also made for future meetings as the planning of the

5 operation progresses."

6 Can you see that?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Sir, you have also been asked by my colleague whether you had been

9 contacted by the police about the autopsy of Mr. Qaili. Can you recall

10 that question?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Is it true that contact with the institute, with your institute

13 with be -- with the investigative judge and he would be calling or she

14 would be calling the institute?

15 A. Usually. If police comes to the institute, this would be with the

16 leave an investigative judge.

17 Q. And that's the investigative judge who decides whether he goes

18 personally or whether he sends the police to ask those questions. Is that

19 correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And is that also correct that such contacts would go through not

22 you but through the director of the institute, Professor Duma?

23 A. Usually the contacts go through Professor Duma and if it is

24 necessary, he conveys them to all of us.

25 Q. I'd like to show you what is Rule 65 ter 1D226 with an ERN

1 1D00-2440.

2 As you can see, Doctor, it is, once again, the OTP statement of

3 Professor Duma which was taken by the Office of the Prosecutor on 5

4 February of 2007, this year.

5 MR. METTRAUX: And if I may ask the registry to go through to page

6 7, 1D00-2446, and focus on paragraph 34. Thank you.

7 Q. Professor Duma is recorded, doctor, as saying the following: "The

8 only report that I have produced regarding this incident was the autopsy

9 report. I seem to recall that after the conflict or during the conflict

10 sometime in 2001 I had a short conversation in my office with someone. I

11 think it was someone from the commission for internal control, although

12 I'm not sure."

13 Can you see that?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Did Professor Duma tell you about this meeting he had with someone

16 about the autopsy report and the autopsies generally of Ljuboten with

17 someone and whether that someone was someone from the commission for

18 internal control? Did he ever tell you that?

19 A. I don't remember. I don't think he mentioned that to me.

20 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... Wouldn't have to mention it

21 to you. Is that correct?

22 A. It is his decision whether he will tell me or not.

23 Q. Thank you. Doctor, you remember being asked a number of questions

24 about the -- or you making a number of comments about the colouring of the

25 body of Mr. Qaili on the pictures that you were shown. Do you recall

1 that?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. As a forensic expert, sir, and if you couldn't do an autopsy for a

4 reason or another, would you scientifically confident to draw any

5 conclusions based on the picture as to what happened to Mr. Qaili?

6 A. Usually if photos are not professionally made, they wouldn't -- we

7 would be reluctant to give concrete expertise, only by looking at a photo.

8 Q. And would you agree with the proposition that without an autopsy

9 and just looking at pictures, such as the ones you were shown yesterday,

10 conclusions as to what might have happened to Mr. Qaili would be, from a

11 scientific point of view, no more than a guess. Is that correct?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. You also asked a number of question about the process of

14 decomposition and putrefaction of the body. Do you recall?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Is that correct that after the autopsy of Mr. Qaili, the body was

17 put in a refrigerated location?

18 A. Yes. I think it was put in a fridge. We have two fridges. And

19 then it was given to the burial company.

20 Q. And is that correct that the refrigeration of the body would

21 somewhat slow down the process of decomposition?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. But then if the body is taken out of the refrigerator, the process

24 of decomposition is then accelerated. Is that correct?

25 A. Yes, because of the higher temperature, decomposition process is

1 quicker.

2 Q. Thank you. I would like to ask you a few questions now about the

3 exhumation in Ljuboten in 2002.

4 Is that correct that the exhumation in Ljuboten was carried out by

5 members of your institute?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Is that also correct that you personally took part in that

8 process?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And you recall also that the OSCE, the ICTY, the EUMM, NATO were

11 all involved in different capacities in that process?

12 A. Yes, I remember.

13 Q. Is that also correct that members of the departments of crime

14 techniques or criminal technology of the Ministry of Interior were also

15 involved in that process?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And the members of that departments were responsible, inter alia,

18 to record the exhumation process by making pictures. Is that correct?

19 A. Yes. The technique personnel was present.

20 Q. And these employees of the Ministry of Interior is also

21 responsible for marking, packaging, and recording all items and remains

22 that were collected during the exhumation. Is that correct?

23 A. Yes, together with Mr. Howard Tucker.

24 Q. Thank you. I think you've indicated already that Professor Duma

25 was somewhat concerned about the security situation of your team during

1 the exhumation in Ljuboten. Is that correct?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Is that also correct that NATO, also known as Amber Fox in

4 Macedonia, was providing security for you and your team during that

5 process?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And the OSCE and the EUMM were also at hand to monitor the

8 process. Is that correct?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And can you confirm that the process of exhumation went, in fact,

11 without any problem?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. I'd like now to ask you a few question about Mr. Qaili and his

14 remains.

15 Is that correct that the body of Mr. Qaili was unearthed and

16 autopsied again in April of 2002?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And is that correct that this was done pursuant to an order of the

19 investigative judge?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Could I ask you to turn, Doctor, to your binder at tab 36. It is

22 Rule 65 ter 64, N00-4212-ET-01. And the Macedonian version of that same

23 document is N000-4212.

24 Sir, this is again the section protocol, as I think have you been

25 shown earlier, and is dated 9 of April, 2002. And it says that the

1 forensic -- the autopsy has been conducted on the Forensic Institute and

2 Criminology at the medical faculty in Skopje on 9 April 2002. That's the

3 first paragraph. Can you see that?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And that it has been done after the order given by the

6 investigative judge Dragan Nikolovski of the Basic Court Skopje II. Is

7 that correct?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And there follows a heading which says data about the case. And

10 it says that"Upon the order of the Basic Court Skopje II the investigative

11 judge Dragan Nikolovski, the exhumation of the bodies of ten inhabitants

12 of Ljuboten village has started who had died during the armed conflict

13 which took place during August of 2001."

14 Can you see that?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And it goes on to say that "The body exhumed in the location of

17 Ljuboten village and marked under 231/2 is the body of Qaili Atulla,

18 according to the data of the investigative authorities. In the archive of

19 the institute there is a section report number 1191/245-01 for conducted

20 autopsy on 14/08/2001 of the late Qaili Atulla."

21 Can you see that?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And is that correct that this report which has been referred to is

24 the autopsy report which you and Professor Duma have prepared. Is that

25 correct?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Is that also correct --

3 MR. METTRAUX: Well, Your Honours, perhaps we'll tender that.

4 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

5 THE REGISTRAR: As exhibit 1D74, Your Honours.

6 MR. METTRAUX:

7 Q. Is that correct, sir, that none of the other nine bodies which

8 were unearthed and autopsied at the Ljuboten cemetery were named in the

9 section protocol in the other autopsy report. Is that correct?

10 A. It is correct. They were recorded under a number.

11 Q. Well, were some of them also recorded as "unknown person"?

12 A. Yes. NN, standing for unknown person, number 1.

13 Q. And is that correct, sir, that the reason why those people were

14 not recorded under any name was because you had no scientific proof at the

15 time of their identity?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Is that correct also that a request had been made to the families

18 of the deceased to provide DNA samples to match those with the DNA samples

19 taken on the deceased? Is that correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Is that also correct that the families of the deceased refused to

22 provide such material?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Is that also correct, sir, that at the time of the autopsies the

25 institute had taken biological material from each and every one of the

1 deceased and that half of that material was given to the Office of the

2 Prosecutor and half of it kept to the institute?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. So that if one of the two sides would manage to obtain DNA from

5 the families, the results would be shared with the other side. Was it the

6 understanding of the parties?

7 A. Yes. That is only logical.

8 Q. Would that such result have been helpful to assist you in

9 identifying the deceased, sir?

10 A. These are the only recognised scientific evidence to verify

11 someone's identity.

12 Q. And did you ever receive that information from the Office of the

13 Prosecutor?

14 A. We only heard that identification was performed through DNA by the

15 Prosecutor's office. We did not receive the results of it. And we were

16 not requested to perform the DNA analysis in order to verify the identity

17 of those persons.

18 Q. Thank you. Sir, I'd like to ask you questions about another

19 autopsy which you carried out.

20 MR. METTRAUX: And that is Rule 65 ter 71 with N00-4206-ET-01.

21 The Macedonian version of that document is N000-4206.

22 Q. And, sir, that is under tab 38 of your binder.

23 Sir, that's again a section protocol coming from your institute

24 with a number 12126/80-2002, Skopje, 9 of April, 2002. And as is obvious

25 from the first page, the autopsy has been conducted by Dr. Zdravko Cakar

1 and assistant Dr. Zlatko Jakovski. And it is -- the autopsy has been

2 performed on the body of unknown person number 1. That person is Mr. Rami

3 Jusufi.

4 Then if I may ask you to go to the second page of that document,

5 sir. There's paragraph in the English starting with: "In the area of the

6 stomach."

7 Can you locate that in the Macedonian version?

8 A. Yes. That is on the third page of the Macedonian version.

9 Q. I apologise. It is on the second page of the English version, in

10 the middle of the page.

11 I'll read it out to you. It says: "In the area of the stomach

12 at the lower left part there is a smaller part of skin. In the area of

13 the stomach, there are remains of the decayed changed organs,

14 brownie-black colour which can be recognised."

15 Then there are two sentences and then you go on to say

16 this: "After the removal of the muscles from the area of left hip bone,

17 ten centimetre from the middle line and 104.5 centimetre above the feet

18 there is a hole, defective place, dimension 0705 centimetre."

19 Do you recall making those findings on this body, doctor?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Then in the next paragraph you say: "In the area of the left side

22 on the flank on the skin there is defective ovals, total dimension 0503

23 centimetre, 108.5 centimetre above the feet."

24 Can you see that?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. Sir, I'd like to show you two pictures. It's -- 1D4 is the first

2 one, Exhibit 1D4.

3 MR. METTRAUX: Your Honour, I'm told in the binder it is 38A, I

4 believe.

5 Q. Sir, we've established earlier that perhaps a picture of that sort

6 is not very reliable in itself. But would you be able to state whether

7 what you can observe on this picture is generally consistent or would be

8 generally consistent with the scientific and medical findings which you

9 have made in your report?

10 A. I wish to say again, this is a picture taken by an amateur and the

11 injury that is shown in the picture does resemble an injury from a

12 fire-arm which has been described in the section protocol.

13 Q. Thank you. If I may ask now to look at 65 ter 608 under the ERN

14 0501-6266.

15 MR. METTRAUX: It's in the same tab in the binder, Your Honour.

16 Q. Again, sir, with the limitations which such a picture contains,

17 would the injury which you observe on that body be generally consistent

18 with your observations and finding in the section protocol which we just

19 read?

20 A. In this photograph, you see a defect in the skin, on the left side

21 of the stomach area, surrounded by a larger area of a haematoma or a

22 bruise. In that part of the abdomen, during the autopsy, the skin was

23 missing.

24 Q. And would that injury be generally consistent, again with the

25 limitations mentioned above, with your observations in the protocol?

1 A. Yes.

2 MR. METTRAUX: If I may ask the registry to go back to Rule 65 ter

3 71. It's under tab 38 of the binder. And if we could to the third page

4 of that document in both languages.

5 Q. Doctor, there is a section with a heading "opinion" in the

6 English. Can you find that.

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And the opinion which you gave was as follows: "At the body of

9 the late NN number 1, I noticed advanced decayed saponification and

10 monification processes as well as processes of decomposition." Can you see

11 that?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Then I'd like to draw your attention to the last paragraph in that

14 opinion. I believe it is the next page in the Macedonian, still page 3 in

15 the English.

16 First I should have read to you perhaps this passage. It says

17 that, "In the area of the remains of the stomach skin on the left side an

18 oval cut has been found."

19 That's what you described earlier. Is that correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. It says, apart from that, "A defective hole has been found on the

22 left hip bone as well as a hole cut of the skin in the area of the left

23 flank."

24 And again that's is consistent with what you said earlier. Is

25 that correct?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Then if we may look at this last paragraph you have said the

3 following: "The changes that have been noticed indicate that this change

4 is caused by projectile fired by fire-arm in the area of the lower third

5 of the stomach on the left side with probable movement in the body from

6 front towards back, from right towards left, and from down towards up."

7 Is that correct? That's what the opinion says?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And is that correct that you were able to determine that the

10 bullet had come from the front to the back, because you found small pieces

11 of bones which came from the front of the body and which were towards the

12 back of the hole at the time of the autopsy?

13 A. During the autopsy, in the left hip bone, in the area of the

14 defect, found were -- found was that the rear, the posterior compact part

15 of the bone was moved towards the back, which indicates that the

16 projectile had the trajectory from the front to the back.

17 Q. And you also concluded in your opinion that the bullet had come

18 from down towards up. Is that correct?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And you were able to do that by measuring the heighth of the hole

21 at the front of the body from the feet and by doing the same measurements

22 at the back, and again from the feet? Is that correct?

23 A. We made this conclusion on the basis of measurements of the

24 heighth of the fire-arm injury in the left femur and the defect found in

25 the area of the left part of the abdomen, because there was a difference

1 in the heighth of the respective injuries of four centimetres. We were

2 able to conclude that the projectile was headed from below to -- from

3 below upwards.

4 Q. So practically, Doctor, it means that the person who shot into the

5 body was placed under the body. Is that correct?

6 A. Yes. He had a lower position in relation to the person that was

7 the subject of the autopsy.

8 Q. Thank you.

9 MR. METTRAUX: Would that be a convenient time, Your Honour?

10 JUDGE PARKER: We had thought to stretch a little, Mr. Mettraux.

11 Is it inconvenient to you to --

12 MR. METTRAUX: Not at all, Your Honour, not at all. I had

13 forgotten that stretching.

14 JUDGE PARKER: Well, that will give us an extra ten minutes or so

15 and that's in everybody's interests. So we will run for eight or ten

16 minutes further from now.

17 MR. METTRAUX: Very well.

18 Q. Sir, there is another document which I would like to show to you

19 at this stage. It is -- it has been marked as MFI 1D5. And it is it in

20 your binder at tab 43.

21 But before I ask you to look at the document, perhaps I'll ask you

22 this: Is that correct, sir, that at the time of carrying out an autopsy

23 on a particular body which had been exhumed in Ljuboten, 26 rounds of live

24 ammunitions were found in his pockets?

25 A. It is true.

1 Q. And were you present, sir, at the time when the bullets were

2 found?

3 A. I was one of the many people present, but I was present only as an

4 observer. I did not participate in that autopsy.

5 Q. And do you recall who the doctor in charge was at the time?

6 A. For that autopsy?

7 Q. Yes.

8 A. Professor Dr. Karpos Boskovski and the assistant, Dr. Natasa

9 Davceva.

10 Q. And do you recall, sir, whether at the time when this 26 live

11 rounds of ammunition were found, Mr. Tucker was present, the OTP

12 investigator?

13 A. Yes. Mr. Tucker and Eric Bakar [phoen].

14 Q. And Eric Bakar was a French forensic expert, is that correct, who

15 came with the ICTY team?

16 A. Yes. In a capacity of an expert and observer.

17 Q. Thank you. I'd lake to go to the documents that you have in front

18 of you, starting with the top of the left page, top left-hand corner. It

19 is again a document that comes from the Lower Court II in Skopje and it

20 has again this number N 01 -- sorry, 601/01, and it is dated 9 May 2002,

21 Skopje. And it has a title "report on the exhumations conducted in

22 Ljuboten and the subsequent autopsies."

23 Can you see that?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And it says the following in the first paragraph: "Upon my order,

1 identity N 601-01 of 3 April 2002 issued on the basis of the proposal of

2 the lower public prosecutor in Skopje, XXRO number 1098/01, of 10

3 September 2001, for conducting special investigative actions, the

4 procedure for exhumation of ten bodies buried in the course of August 2001

5 at the Muslim graveyard in the village of Ljuboten in the Skopje area

6 began on April 8th, 2002 in my presence."

7 Can you see that?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And goes on to say: "It was also attended by the investigating

10 judge of this court Beqir Shinji [phoen]; authorised officers from the

11 Institute of the Forensic Medicine and Criminology at the university

12 centre for medical science in Skopje; the forensics sectors at the

13 Ministry of the Interior of the Republic of Macedonia as well as

14 representatives of the International Criminal Tribunal for the Former

15 Yugoslavia; Mr. Howard Tucker, investigator, and Eric Bakar, forensic

16 pathologist.

17 Can you see that?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And the next paragraph says that the aim of the exhumation and

20 subsequent autopsies of these ten bodies was to establish the cause and

21 time of death and to enable identification of the bodies."

22 Can you see that?

23 A. Yes.

24 MR. METTRAUX: I'll ask the registry now to turn to page 5 in the

25 English. I think I have located the Macedonian page as page number 6.

1 Q. Sir, that would be the last half paragraph of page 6 of the

2 Macedonian version. And it is also the last paragraph on page 5 of the

3 English.

4 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

5 JUDGE PARKER: I'm told, Mr. Mettraux, that only one page of the

6 translation is in e-court, the balance having been received only today and

7 it has not yet been possible to include it.

8 MR. METTRAUX: I'm told the same thing from my side of the

9 courtroom, Your Honour. I understand that we have received the official

10 translation today, so what we'll do is --

11 JUDGE PARKER: Would you like to consider what to do about that

12 over the break?

13 MR. METTRAUX: Absolutely.

14 JUDGE PARKER: Very well.

15 We will adjourn now and we resume at 25 minutes past 4.00.

16 --- Recess taken at 3.53 p.m.

17 --- On resuming at 4.30 p.m.

18 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Mettraux.

19 MR. METTRAUX: Thank you, Your Honour. We've queried the matter

20 further. The translation in English has been available for a few days

21 now. We have also scanned and sent the document and we are-- are awaiting

22 the uploading, and we are told it can happen either today or tomorrow.

23 For the time being, with the kind assistance of the usher, we will

24 place the document on the ELMO.

25 Q. And, Doctor, that is still the document under tab 43 of your

1 binder?

2 MR. METTRAUX: If the usher could place the first page of that

3 document on the ELMO. 43, Doctor.

4 THE WITNESS: Okay.

5 MR. METTRAUX: No, that would not be the first page. That would

6 be this page written report on the exhumations. Page number 1, please.

7 Thank you very much.

8 Q. So, Doctor, that's -- for identification purposes, that is the

9 same document that I have just shown you before. It's a report on the

10 exhumations conducted in Ljuboten and the subsequent autopsies, and I have

11 read to you the first and second paragraph of that document.

12 MR. METTRAUX: And I'll ask now the usher to go to the fifth page

13 of that document, please. And if you could focus on the last paragraph of

14 that page, please. Further down, please. A bit further. Thank you very

15 much.

16 Q. Doctor, I'll ask you to look at the last paragraph on that page

17 and I'll read it out to you. It says: "At 1500 hours the autopsies

18 continued with the body with reference number 236/5, Xhelal Bajrami. The

19 autopsy began at 1530 hours after the usual preliminary procedure of the

20 body being taken from the cooler and transported to the autopsy room."

21 And if we could go to page 6, please, at the top. Thank you.

22 It says: "The blanket in which the body was wrapped was removed,

23 revealing a body dressed in a black shirt and jeans with a belt as well as

24 low rubber sandals."

25 Can you see that, doctor?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Then it says this: "It was established that the clothing was

3 damaged. Fire-arm projectiles and metal fragments were found in the body

4 during the autopsy. More details on the findings are given in the autopsy

5 protocol. The left front pocket of the jeans contained 26 bullets for

6 fire-arm."

7 Can you see that?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And that is consistent with what have you told us before. Is that

10 correct?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And then the report goes on to say: "All of the ballistic

13 material found was labelled and retained for analysis by Mr. Tucker, as

14 was also done with the biological material. The autopsy was completed at

15 2102 hours."

16 And is that, again, consistent with your memory of those events,

17 sir?

18 A. Yes.

19 MR. METTRAUX: Your Honour, we would wish to tender this document.

20 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

21 MR. METTRAUX: Perhaps simply for the record I will ask the usher

22 to place the last page on the ELMO to identify the signature, Your Honour.

23 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

24 MR. METTRAUX:

25 Q. Doctor, is that correct that the document was signed by

1 investigative judge Dragan Nikolovski?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Thank you.

4 JUDGE PARKER: That last document, I believe, was marked for

5 identification and will now become an exhibit with the same number.

6 MR. METTRAUX: Thank you very much.

7 Could the witness please be shown Prosecution Exhibit P49 with an

8 ERN ET-0001-0090-01, and the Macedonian is N001-0000-92.

9 Q. Doctor, it is tab 34 of your binder.

10 A. I would just like to ask the usher if you can switch on the second

11 monitor. [In English] Thank you. It is okay.

12 Q. Sir, is that correct that the authority which is competent to ask

13 for and receive an autopsy report is the investigative judge?

14 A. [Interpretation] Yes.

15 Q. And if I may ask you to look at this document in front of you,

16 starting with the subject heading, it is a request for an autopsy report.

17 Can you see that?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And it comes from investigative judge Dragan Nikolovski. You have

20 his signature on the bottom right-hand corner.

21 Can you see that?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And on the top right-hand corner of the document it is -- the

24 recipients of the -- of this document the Institute of Forensic Medicine

25 and Criminology, Skopje. Is that correct?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And if we go into the text of that document, it says that: "In

3 connection with the procedure for exhumation and examination of ten bodies

4 in Ljuboten village buried in August 2001, we hereby request that you send

5 us a report from the autopsy of Atulla Qaili, son of Avdi, born on 3

6 November 1965 from Ljuboten village which was performed in your institute

7 on 14 and 15 August 2001," and the request is dated 9 April 2002.

8 Sir, can you recall receiving this request or Professor Duma

9 receiving this request?

10 A. Regarding this request, we submitted this autopsy protocol to the

11 investigation judge.

12 Q. Thank you.

13 MR. METTRAUX: Could the witness please be shown what is now

14 P289. Thank you.

15 Q. Sir, you will recall you were shown this document by my colleague

16 from the Prosecution. Do you recall that document?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Before looking into the substance of that document may I draw your

19 attention to the top left-hand corner of that document, and there's a date

20 that is the date of the document and it is the 22nd of May, 2003. Can you

21 see that?

22 A. 22nd of May.

23 Q. Yes. And the document which is the delivery of autopsy protocol

24 is sent from university medical faculty, forensic and criminological

25 institute to the Basic Court Skopje II, Judge Dragan Nikolovski. Is that

1 correct?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And I'd like to go into the substance of that document with you.

4 The letter sent by Professor Duma- I think you have been shown

5 the signature already - says this: "We would like to send you the autopsy

6 protocol from autopsies of the corpses exhumed in the Ljuboten village."

7 Can you see that?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And it says that "These exhumations were performed upon your order

10 in the time from 9 April 2003 to 23 April 2003."

11 Sir, is that correct that the autopsies -- the exhumations, I'm

12 sorry, were in fact done in April of 2002?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. But it's correct that they were done in the presence of observers

15 from the ICTY, isn't that? Isn't it correct?

16 A. Yes, that is correct, Eric Bakar and Howard Tucker.

17 Q. Thank you. And the letter goes on to say that "This decision was

18 brought by a team of professionals composed of the core professional

19 staff, professors only, it has handed over after the meeting with the

20 higher-ranked officials from the ICTY who are liable for the Balkans," I

21 suppose it should be responsible, "under auspices of the president of the

22 Basic Court Skopje II and at the premises of the Forensic Institute at the

23 medical faculty in Skopje."

24 Sir, that reference to a meeting with the president of the Basic

25 Court and higher-ranked officials of the ICTY at the premises of the

1 institute of the medical faculty, is that consistent with a meeting of

2 30th January 2002, which we discussed earlier?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Perhaps I should also ask you this: Are you aware of any other

5 meetings prior to January 2002 attended by the Office of the Prosecutor of

6 this Tribunal with Professor Duma or any other members of your institute?

7 A. There have been several meetings with the Professor Duma and with

8 us.

9 Q. And you recall any particular meeting, perhaps in the month of

10 November of 2001?

11 A. I cannot recall. I don't remember the exact dates.

12 Q. Can you recall perhaps that some of those meetings took place in

13 the year 2001, between August of 2001 and the end of the year?

14 A. There have been meetings discussing when the autopsy should --

15 that is, the exhumation, when it should start, regarding the present

16 preparations and people were discussing our security.

17 Q. And can you recall whether those meetings were in the year 2001

18 still or is that too far gone, that you can't recall?

19 A. I can't recall the exact dates.

20 Q. Very well. If I can ask to you look back at the document in front

21 of you, there's another paragraph which says this: "During the meeting,

22 representatives of the ICTY were clearly and precisely explained the

23 ICTY's authorisations in regard of the procedure, enforcement, and its

24 consequences over our state, these which would accrue as a result of the

25 impossibility to continue the Court procedure in relation to the Ljuboten

1 event."

2 Can you see that?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And then there's another paragraph which was read to you by my

5 colleague yesterday, which says this: "In this context we would like to

6 mention that this is our first serious and official conversation regarding

7 the critical incidents with both representative of the Macedonian

8 judiciary and the international community. During our talks with

9 representative of the ICTY, they were categorical," and then we go on to

10 the next page, "that it is it of essential need to respect the basic

11 postulates for professionalism and criteria for good professional work."

12 Sir, are you able to say what meeting Professor Duma was referring

13 to in this particular part of his report?

14 A. About the meeting that took place, that is being discussed in the

15 letter in the first paragraph, I believe.

16 Q. And would you recall the date of that meeting, by any chance?

17 A. It is listed. Maybe you can bring back the first page.

18 MR. METTRAUX: If we can bring back the first page.

19 Q. Is that the meeting of the 30th of January, sir, 2002?

20 A. I'm not quite sure whether this refers to that particular meeting.

21 Q. Okay. Well, if we can --

22 A. I assume that it refers to the meeting held at the institute with

23 the president of the court and the officials from the ICTY.

24 Q. And one such meeting, in any case, took place in January 2002, but

25 you cannot tell whether there had been any similar meeting prior to that

1 time. Is that your evidence?

2 A. There have been meetings, but the director is the one present at

3 all meetings and some professors from the institute, not all of them.

4 Q. Thank you. If we can go to the second page of the document now.

5 It is the end of the first -- of the previous paragraph, the paragraph

6 from the previous page which Professor Duma makes a point about the

7 financial independence of the institute. But then I would like to ask you

8 to focus on the last paragraph of that document.

9 And I read it out to you. It says: "Beside this situation,

10 professional staff of the Forensic Institute reckoned that further delay

11 of the commencement of the activities of ICTY in analysing the concrete

12 event might have negative repercussions over the Macedonian state, and

13 therefore it was decided to provide the requested documentation to the

14 authorised court in hope that the authorised institutions and body of the

15 state will provide conditions for further work and existence of the

16 institute in all its segments."

17 Can you see that?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Can you recall Professor Duma complaining to you about the

20 unwillingness of the Office of the Prosecution to act very fast or to be

21 proactive in relation to this matter?

22 A. I can't recall.

23 MR. METTRAUX: Can this witness please be shown N000-9883-30. And

24 the Macedonian version of this document is N000-9911-MY.

25 Your Honour, this is a letter which was lifted out of a larger

1 Prosecution exhibit. That's Rule 65 ter number 20, and the Macedonian

2 version of this document appears to be a translation of the English, which

3 itself would be a translation of a document which we don't have.

4 Q. Sir, do you have the document in front of you?

5 A. Yes.

6 MR. METTRAUX: We have copies, Your Honour, because we hadn't had

7 time to place it in the binder. If the usher may assist.

8 Q. Sir, this is --

9 MR. METTRAUX: Perhaps if the usher to give a copy to the

10 Prosecutor -- oh, they have it. Okay.

11 Q. Sir,, if I may ask you to look at the top left-hand corner of that

12 document. It says: "Public prosecution of the Republic of Macedonia,"

13 then there's a number 11/2002 and a date 14 August 2002. And the letter

14 is addressed to ICTY OTP Madam Carla Del Ponte.

15 Can you see that?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And the subject of that letter is a response to the request for

18 information submitted by the Prosecutor of ICTY. Can you see that?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And if you look at the first sentence immediately below, it

21 says: "The public prosecutor of the Republic of Macedonia has the pleasure

22 and honour to respond to the request for information submitted on 5 August

23 2002."

24 Can you see that?

25 A. Yes.

1 MR. METTRAUX: Then if I may ask the registry to turn to the --

2 what is the third page of that document with number 4 at the bottom of the

3 page. It is N000-09914.

4 Q. Sir, I'm going to ask you, sir, to find a paragraph starting with

5 the word "the Prosecutor of the International Criminal Tribunal," and

6 there's a date 26/04/2002. I believe it is page 31 of the Macedonian, at

7 the bottom of the page has a 31.

8 Did you find it?

9 A. Yes. I opened the page 31.

10 Q. There's a paragraph which says that "The Prosecutor of the

11 International Criminal Tribunal, in the same letter, dated 26 April 2002,

12 has indeed informed the public prosecutor of the Republic of Macedonia

13 that the international Tribunal, according to Article 9 of the statute of

14 the court, has primacy over the national courts of the Republic of

15 Macedonia and informed the public prosecutor of the Republic of Macedonia

16 that they would be involved in the already-commenced investigations in

17 relation to the crimes committed in the Republic of Macedonia."

18 Can you see that?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Then it goes on to say that, "However, information has not arrived

21 to the public prosecutor of the Republic of Macedonia, whether the

22 Prosecutor of the International Criminal Tribunal acted in accordance with

23 Article 9 of the rules of procedure and evidence of the International

24 Criminal Tribunal." Can you see that?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. And then at the bottom of this same page in the English, in any

2 case, it says, "In the past period the formal official deferral request

3 has not been delivered by the International Tribunal to the public

4 prosecutor of the Republic of Macedonia or the court," and that is the

5 next page in the English, please, "in accordance with Article 10 of the

6 rules of procedure and evidence of the International Tribunal."

7 Can you see that?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Then if you jump over the text of that provision and go to what is

10 noted down as paragraph 4 it says: "The public prosecutor of the Republic

11 of Macedonia was not informed with any letter or decision of The Hague

12 Tribunal that the Macedonian authorities should cease all further

13 investigations in relation to these cases. And as a result of that in the

14 Republic of Macedonia, in accordance with the constitution, the law on

15 criminal procedure, criminal code and other laws, acts have been

16 undertaken by the competent organs."

17 Can you see that?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And it says: "These acts have been undertaken in relation to the

20 known and unknown perpetrators which are revealed additionally during the

21 proceedings."

22 Can you see that?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And then the person who signed this document, we will see it is

25 Prosecutor Dzikov, says: "Reference the cooperation between the

1 Prosecutor of the International Criminal Court, his/her office and the

2 public prosecutor of the Republic of Macedonia, both parties emphasised

3 many times that it was on a more than a satisfactory level."

4 Can you see that?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And then Mr. Dzikov says this: "Meetings have been held many

7 times in order to assist OTP of The Hague Tribunal in Skopje in relation

8 to the pending obstacles which they have in relation to the investigation

9 they conduct and adequate results have been achieved after those

10 meetings."

11 Can you see that?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Then Prosecutor Dzikov says: "In the meeting held on 8 May 2002 in

14 Skopje between the chief Prosecutor of The Hague Tribunal and the public

15 prosecutor of the Republic of Macedonia, it was agreed to form an expert

16 team consisted of six experts who, in the Republic of Macdonia, would

17 contact adequate team to work in relation to the investigations for which

18 the Prosecutor of The Hague Tribunal was interested, but to this date we

19 were not informed about forming such a team."

20 Can you see that?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And then at the very bottom of that page there's a comment which

23 starts on the last line which says: "The public prosecutor of the

24 Republic of Macedonia," and I will ask the registry to turn to the next

25 page in the English, please.

1 "The public prosecutor of the Republic of Macedonia informs you

2 that up to date most correctly and most consciously has forwarded all

3 relevant information in its possession to the Prosecutor of the

4 International Tribunal."

5 Can you see that?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And it is signed by public prosecutor of the Republic of Macedonia

8 Stavre Dzikov. Is that correct?

9 A. Yes.

10 MR. METTRAUX: Your Honour, we would wish to tender this document.

11 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

12 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit 1D75, Your Honours.

13 MR. METTRAUX:

14 Q. Doctor, there is another letter which I would like to show to you,

15 and it is N000-9883-39 in the English, N000-9883-42 in the Macedonian, and

16 in the usher's assistance, we have hard copies for the Court, the

17 Prosecution and the witness. Thank you.

18 Sir, do you have that letter in front of you?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... Again at the first page on

21 the top left-hand corner. It says that it is the Republic of Macedonia,

22 public prosecutor's office of the Republic of Macedonia, same number as

23 the previous letter, 11 -- seems to be that same number. Yes, same number

24 as the previous letter, 11/2002. This letter is dated 2nd September

25 2002.

1 Can you see that?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... Sent to the International

4 Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia, Office of the Prosecutor,

5 Madam Carla Del Ponte.

6 Can you see that?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And if you could turn quickly to the last page of that document,

9 in Macedonian or in English. Would you agree that the document is again

10 signed by public prosecutor of the Republic of Macedonia, Stavre Dzikov?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And the document has a heading saying -- there's a reference and

13 then there's a subject respond to a letter. It's addressed to Madam Del

14 Ponte, and Mr. Dzikov says the following: "Please allow me to address you

15 by this letter regarding the different legal opinions and views on the

16 interpretation of the primacy provisions of the Tribunal over the national

17 judiciary of Republic of Macedonia between the Office of the Prosecutor of

18 the ICTY and public prosecutor of the Republic of Macedonia."

19 Can you see that?

20 A. Yes.

21 MR. METTRAUX: If the registry could turn to the next page after

22 that document, please.

23 Q. Sir, there's a paragraph started with the word "as I already

24 clearly and precisely informed." Can you find it on the second or third

25 page of the Macedonian document?

1 A. [No interpretation]

2 Q. I'll read it out to you. It says: "As I already clearly and

3 precisely informed you in my previous letter, it is essential to follow

4 the formal procedures for deferral of the cases which are conducted in our

5 courts by ICTY submitting an official request for deferral of the

6 competence to our courts which are conducting the cases through the

7 supreme court of Republic of Macedonia."

8 Can you see that?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Mr. Dzikov goes on to say: "So far in our successful and fruitful

11 mutual cooperation, an agreement for exchange of relevant information was

12 achieved in relation to the cases that are you interested in in accordance

13 with Rule 8 of the Rules."

14 Can you see that?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And then if we can turn to the third page in the English. I

17 believe that would in part also on the third page in the Macedonian.

18 Mr. Dzikov says this: "Our communication was established on the

19 basis of actual cooperation, direct meetings and statement of the

20 Prosecutors on the basis of Article 8 of the rules of procedure and

21 evidence, where only relevant information are sought.

22 Then Prosecutor Dzikov says this: "The security situation in

23 Republic of Macedonia, even after 26 September 2002, is still endangered

24 by constant attacks of person that use violence for political goals."

25 Can you see that?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And he goes on to say that "There are still murders of civilian

3 persons and members of the security forces, kidnapping of civilian

4 persons, violent acts from the Albanian terrorist gangs, which call

5 themselves army of Republic [indiscernible] and ANA, Albanian Liberation

6 Army, and terrorist gangs from the protectorate, Kosovo."

7 Can you see that?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And then in the last paragraph of his letter to Madam Del Ponte

10 Prosecutor Dzikov says this: "Because of this critical condition of the

11 state, the postponing of the prosecution and the hesitancy of the Office

12 of the Prosecutor of the ICTY and the ICTY which lead to expansion of the

13 terrorism and serious violations of the international humanitarian law and

14 in order to reconcile the legal views regarding the exercising of primacy,

15 I consider that there a need of an urgent joint working meeting with you

16 and the president of the ICTY, Judge Jorda."

17 Can you see that?

18 A. Yes.

19 MR. METTRAUX: Your Honour, we would wish to tender this as well.

20 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

21 THE REGISTRAR: [Microphone not activated]

22 MR. METTRAUX: Thank you, sir.

23 Q. There is one last document I would wish to show you and it's under

24 tab 40 of your binder. It is Prosecution document Rule 65 ter 61, ERN

25 N000-4211-ET-01. And the Macedonian version is N000-4211.

1 JUDGE PARKER: I see, Mr. Mettraux, at line 11 that the --

2 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

3 JUDGE PARKER: [Microphone not activated] Would the registrar

4 repeat the number?

5 THE REGISTRAR: Yes. The previous document will become Exhibit

6 1D76, Your Honours.

7 MR METTRAUX: I'm very grateful, Your Honour. Thank you.

8 Q. Sir, do you have that document in front of you?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Is that correct, sir that in April of 2002 when the bodies from

11 Ljuboten were exhumed, your institute also carried out an examination of

12 the clothing of the deceased; is that correct?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And again this was done upon the request of the investigative

15 judge. Is that correct?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And as this document would suggest, the results of those

18 examinations were then sent back to the investigative judge of the Lower

19 Court Skopje II. Is that correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And this particular document which is in front of you was signed

22 by you, by Dr. Cakar and by the director Aleksej Duma. Is that correct?

23 A. Yes.

24 MR. METTRAUX: Your Honour, we wish to tender this document.

25 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

1 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit 1D77, Your Honours.

2 MR. METTRAUX: Your Honour, my attention is drawn to the fact that

3 document under tab 38 of the binder, which is a section protocol relating

4 to unknown person number 1, that's Rami Jusufi, which I've shown to the

5 witness, I haven't formally sought to tender it and I would wish to do so

6 with the Court's leave.

7 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

8 MR. METTRAUX: Thank you very much.

9 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit 1D78, Your Honours.

10 MR. METTRAUX: That would be the end of the cross-examination.

11 Q. Thank you very much, Doctor.

12 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Mettraux.

13 Mr. Apostolski, is there anything left?

14 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours. I

15 will be short. I hold the witness for a short time only because only a

16 few topics have remained.

17 Cross-examination by Mr. Apostolski:

18 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Dr. Zlatko Jakovski.

19 A. Good afternoon.

20 Q. I am Antonio Apostolski and together with my colleague Jasmina

21 Zivkovic we appear on behalf of Mr. Johan Tarculovski.

22 Today I will make you some questions which I think my learned

23 colleague Mr. Mettraux did not tackle. You said you had participated in

24 the exhumation of the bodies in Ljuboten on April the 2nd, where an

25 investigating judge had participated, representatives of the ICTY, deputy

1 public prosecutor. Is this correct?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Is it correct that after the exhumation the bodies were put in a

4 bag which was sealed by the representatives of the ICTY?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Is it correct that the bag with a corpse was put --

7 THE INTERPRETER: A tin, which was then sealed?

8 A. Yes.

9 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation]

10 Q. Then the tin was put -- was sent to the Forensic Institute and was

11 put in the refrigerator, which was sealed by representatives of the

12 Tribunal. Is this correct?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Therefore, from the time of the exhumation until it -- its putting

15 in the refrigerator of the Forensic Institute, none of the persons with

16 the exception of those present at the exhumation could not have had access

17 to the corpse. Is this correct?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. From the refrigerator, the tin was sent to the autopsy room where

20 the autopsy was conducted. Is this correct?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. During the autopsy, there were representatives from the

23 criminalistic technique department, an investigating judge and

24 representatives of the Tribunal. Is this correct.

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. Is it correct that you participated to all -- to the autopsies of

2 all the corpses brought from the exhumation of Ljuboten?

3 A. I personally conducted three of them and I participated to the

4 others.

5 Q. To my colleague Mr. Mettraux you answered that in the clothes of

6 one of the corpses 26 bullets from a gun-fire were found. Is this

7 correct?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Is it correct that during the inspection of the clothes of another

10 corpse, a wallet with money was found, with documents, ID, and a driving

11 licence. Do you recall this?

12 A. I do not recall that.

13 Q. Okay. Thank you. You said that your institute works also upon

14 the order of investigating judge pursuant of the procedural -- I'm sorry,

15 the law on criminal procedure. Is this correct?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Can the investigating judge issue an order for a paraffin glove

18 test?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Is it correct that this order is issued because an expertise is

21 needed while conducting an investigating procedure as evidence?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Is it correct, I speak of the period in 2001/2002 --

24 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction, 2000/2001.

25 A. The interpretation is not correct. 2000/2001 is right.

1 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation]

2 Q. Yes. My question referred to 2000/2001. Is it correct that in

3 that period of time the investigating judges in the Republic of Macedonia

4 accepted the paraffin glove test as an evidence for use of fire-arm?

5 A. At that time and now as well they accepted as an evidence proving

6 the usage of fire-arm.

7 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Could the witness be shown the

8 statement 65 ter 2D00-178.

9 Q. This is a statement made by Ognen Stavrev. On the first page, it

10 can be seen that while making the statement Mr. Ognen Stavrev was a

11 criminal judge and his previous profession was an investigating judge.

12 You said you knew Mr. Ognen Stavrev. Is this correct?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. On page 2, please could you turn to page 2 of the statement.

15 Paragraph 2, the Judge Ognen Stavrev says that he became investigating

16 judge by the end of 1999 or beginning of 2000. Can you see that?

17 A. Yes.

18 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Could the witness be shown page 3

19 of the English version and page 4 of the Macedonian version of the

20 statement.

21 Q. In his statement the Judge Ognen Stavrev, in paragraph 10

22 says: "In general, all the accused said that they were hiding in the

23 basements because they were afraid of the shooting. However, the positive

24 results of their paraffin tests was proof that they had been handling

25 weapons. What accused ever said that he is guilty? On the basis of the

1 paraffin glove test, I, being an investigative judge, thought that the

2 accused might have committed a crime. For me, the gun powder test was

3 enough."

4 Is it correct that the investigative Judge Ognen Stavrev

5 considered that the positive paraffin glove test is enough of an evidence

6 that a person handled a fire, a gun?

7 A. According to his statement that you have cited, the answer would

8 be yes.

9 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Honourable Judges, I do not have

10 any more questions for this witness.

11 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Apostolski.

12 Ms. Motoike.

13 MS. MOTOIKE: Thank you, Your Honour, good afternoon.

14 Re-examination by Ms. Motoike:

15 Q. Doctor, earlier today you were asked about trajectory of a

16 projectile in one of the bodies that you actually performed an autopsy on

17 that had been exhumed in 2002. And with respect to that projectile you

18 indicated that it travelled in the body upwards, from a downwards position

19 up. And from that you testified that that travel or that trajectory would

20 indicate the person who shot -- who was shot into the body was in a lower

21 position in relation to the person who was the subject of the autopsy.

22 My question to you is: Can you please tell us, by lower position,

23 could this mean that the shooter was in a crouching position or perhaps

24 lying down at the time that the projectile was fired?

25 A. According to the difference in height of four centimetres between

1 the bone, that is to say, the left inguinal bone, and the left side of the

2 body, this is just four centimetres, at a very short distance. I can say

3 that the projectile entered the body under a sharp angle of around 50 to

4 60 degrees with respect to the vertical plane of the body, which points to

5 the fact that if the person who is shooting at him, if the person was

6 crouching or lying down, the person would be very close to the deceased.

7 When I say close, I'm just talking about a metre or two. Or, the deceased

8 might have been at a larger distance from the shooter, but maybe he was on

9 a tree or a terrace, elevated position, and the shooter might have been

10 lower.

11 Q. Okay. Thank you. And if we could refer back to your testimony

12 from yesterday, it's actually page 45 of yesterday' transcript. You were

13 asked about requests for autopsies from the city hospital. Are you asked

14 to do an autopsy for every death that occurs at this particular hospital?

15 A. From this hospital and other hospitals throughout the Republic of

16 Macedonia, we receive requests to conduct an autopsy of individuals who

17 have died of a violent death, persons where the diagnosis is missing, for

18 persons who died during a surgery or any other type of medical

19 intervention, as well as persons who died during the initial 24 hours

20 after they have been admitted to the hospital.

21 Q. Okay. And on page 46 of the transcript from yesterday, you were

22 also shown a document that has already been admitted as P00054.

23 MS. MOTOIKE: Could we please display that once again. It is

24 actually tab 14 of the binder provided by the Defence for Mr. Boskoski.

25 And for further assistance, it was -- thank you.

1 Q. Doctor, do you recall this note being shown to you yesterday?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And in this Official Note, it is signed by the investigating judge

4 Velce Pancevski at the very bottom. And just to refresh your memory a

5 little bit, at the very top of the note under the words Official Note, it

6 indicates that on 14 August 2001, I, being the investigative judge,

7 visited the city general hospital in Skopje and talked with Dr. Viktor

8 Kamilovski with regard to the health condition of the following detained

9 individuals, and then it lists Nevaip Bajrami, Ismail Ramadani, Adem

10 Ametovski, and then fourth is Qaili Atulla. Do you see that?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. If we could please display for the witness the witness statement

13 of Velce Pancevski, which is at ERN N002-2031, N002-2037, Macedonian

14 translation being the same with a MF at the end.

15 Doctor, do you see here a Macedonian version of this particular

16 witness statement. It's from Velce Pancevski, and at that time his

17 current occupation was investigative judge in Basic Court II in Skopje.

18 And then the date of the interview with representatives of the Office of

19 the Prosecutor was on 14 and 19 December 2005.

20 Do you see that?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And if we could please turn to page 4 of the English version of

23 this particular statement, which is page 5 of the Macedonian. If I could

24 draw your attention to paragraph 12. It indicates that the

25 representatives of the Office of the Prosecutor have shown me, that is

1 being investigative judge Pancevski, a document bearing the ERN

2 N001-9824. This document, he indicates, is a copy of my internal notes

3 that I made about some of the accused who were seriously injured. This is

4 my handwriting. This is just my internal note. It is not official

5 evidence and it is not a part of the records.

6 At the bottom here it says: "This is just my," if we could turn

7 the page in English, please. It says that: "This is just my reminder and

8 was photocopied without my knowledge and approval.

9 "In response to the question whether the indication of serious

10 injuries in my notes could indicate that some of the accused were victims

11 of crimes rather than perpetrators of crimes, I say that I cannot answer

12 that question, because in this case we were dealing with accused and not

13 victims."

14 Do you see that, doctor?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And if we could please then show exhibit -- that is a -- an

17 exhibit that has already been admitted under P54. It is located at pages

18 182 and 183 of e-court. However, for purposes of the English translation,

19 it might be better to pull 65 ter 19.8 which has a corresponding English

20 translation.

21 Actually, the Macedonian version that was on the screen earlier

22 was correct. And I believe the English translation can be found at 65 ter

23 19.58. Thank you very much.

24 Doctor, I'm now showing you a document that bears the same ERN

25 that investigative judge Pancevski referred to in paragraph 12 of his

1 statement that we just went over. The document bears ET

2 N001-9824-N001-9825. At the very top of this document it is dated 14

3 August 2001. I believe there is a time there in parentheses, 2320, and

4 goes on to indicate general city hospital, Skopje, it lists the Dr.

5 Kamilovski, Viktor. And goes on further. Down below that it says Atulla

6 Qaili, deceased, and then it lists three other names and then it goes on

7 at number one it says Bajrami Nevaip and then at number -- right below

8 that, I'm sorry, it says diagnosis, heads -- head -- there's something

9 illegible, head, ribs fracture, 7, 8, 9 left thoracic cage, and then at

10 number 2 it says Ramadani Ismail. It indicates a received date and a

11 time, and then it says diagnosis, pains in head and thoracic cage, head

12 contusion, ribs fracture, 7th and 8th right and 2nd to 7th rib, left side,

13 haematoma, right eye. At number 3 it lists Ametovski, Adem. It indicates

14 a diagnosis 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, ribs fracture, brain concussion, left side,

15 face, and there is something illegible, scratches. And then at the bottom

16 there it says haematoma, left eye.

17 Do you see that?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. If we could turn the page in both versions, please. And at number

20 4, the investigative judge, in his handwriting he writes Qaili Atulla, and

21 then at the bottom it says received 13/8/2001, 0500, in unconsciousness

22 condition, head contusion, arm, something illegible, face below his left

23 eye, neck contusion, contusion, whole body with haematomas.

24 Do you see that.

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. And are these particular injuries, the ones listed for Qaili

2 Atulla, consistent with some of the injuries that you noted during the

3 autopsy?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. From looking at these handwriting notes by the investigative judge

6 Pancevski and the Official Note that I just showed you that was prepared

7 by the same judge, can you see that the information in these handwritten

8 notes are not reflected in the Official Notes that were shown to you,

9 which is Exhibit P00054?

10 A. Not in the same details as they are here handwritten.

11 Q. And could we just please display P00054 so that the doctor could

12 see the Official Note I'm referring to.

13 And, again, Doctor, this is tab 14 of your binder that's before

14 you.

15 And, Doctor, I see that have you had an opportunity to look at the

16 Macedonian version in hard copy. You indicated that the injuries were not

17 in the same details as they are in the handwritten notes. Do you see any

18 references to any of the injuries that were noted in the handwritten notes

19 in this Official Note prepared by the investigating judge?

20 A. I can see only that it reads that they have been injured, medical

21 assistance was provided and they're going to be kept for several days.

22 Today they're not capable of communicating and giving their statements.

23 Q. Thank you. And my last question for you, Doctor was in reference

24 to yesterday's testimony at page 73 of the transcript you were asked about

25 the paraffin glove test. Can I ask you, relying on your expertise

1 regarding this particular test, can you tell me whether-- if someone was

2 hit on the hands by a fire-arm, would that also leave nitrate particles

3 that would be detected by this particular paraffin glove test?

4 A. The question is very hypothetical. First of all, it all depends

5 which part of a weapon would be used in order to hit a person. The

6 location where the hit would occur, and from the theoretical point of

7 view, one cannot exclude this from happening, bearing in mind that the

8 powder particles would be found only at the particular location where the

9 hit took place. And, at that particular location, there should be some

10 kind of additional injury, like a bruise, contusion or excoriation.

11 Q. Okay.

12 MS. MOTOIKE: Thank you. Your Honours, I have nothing further.

13 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Ms. Motoike.

14 Doctor, you will, I'm sure, be pleased to learn that that

15 concludes the questioning of you in respect of this matter. The Chamber

16 is very grateful for your attendance here in The Hague, for the patience

17 and care with which you have given your assistance to the matters that

18 have been put to you.

19 We thank you for that and you are of course now able to return to

20 your ordinary life and work.

21 The court officer will show you out.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. I thank the

23 Honourable Court as well.

24 [The witness withdrew]

25 JUDGE PARKER: It was foreshadowed that counsel might be in a

1 position to deal with the motions that are outstanding in respect of leave

2 to the Prosecution to remove witnesses from the witness list. Is that

3 convenient at this point --

4 MR. METTRAUX: Yes, Your Honour.

5 JUDGE PARKER: -- for counsel? Is it convenient for the

6 Prosecution?

7 MS. REGUE: Yes, Your Honour.

8 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Ms. Regue.

9 Yes, Mr. Mettraux.

10 MR. METTRAUX: Thank you, Your Honour.

11 Perhaps we will start in the reverse order of the --

12 I will start perhaps in reverse order with the 7th motion of the

13 Prosecution dated 14th June of 2007.

14 And we can indicate that there is no objection and otherwise no

15 comment by the Defence in relation to the request by the Prosecution to

16 withdraw four of its witnesses from its list.

17 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

18 MR. METTRAUX: Moving on to the 6th motion for withdrawal dated 11

19 of June of 2007, perhaps, Your Honour, we should move into a private

20 session, just in case.

21 JUDGE PARKER: Private.

22 [Private session]

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23 [Open session]

24 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're in open session.

25 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. The Chamber must now adjourn for the

1 afternoon. It will resume tomorrow at 9.00 to --

2 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.08 p.m,

3 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 21st day of

4 June, 2007, at 9.00 a.m.

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