1 Wednesday, 27 June 2007
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.09 a.m.
6 JUDGE PARKER: Good morning.
7 Mr. Saxon, you're standing with an object in mind.
8 MR. SAXON: That's correct, Your Honour. A brief procedural
10 JUDGE PARKER: Yes.
11 MR. SAXON: Last evening, when the Prosecution was reviewing the
12 transcripts of yesterday's testimony, the Prosecution realised that it
13 made an error yesterday, in that at lines 4 through 20 on page 2698 of the
14 transcript, the Prosecution questioned this witness about a subject matter
15 which the witness had discussed with the Prosecution during proofing of
16 the witness. However, the Prosecution inadvertently omitted to include
17 this subject matter in its proofing note or notes to the Defence; and,
18 therefore, the Prosecution became concerned that it had improperly led
19 evidence that it should not have.
20 The Prosecution and the Defence counsel spoke last evening, and
21 the Defence counsel have told the Prosecution they do not feel prejudiced
22 by this, and they wish that the lines of testimony remain in the record as
23 they are.
24 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Saxon.
25 We had understood that there was going to be a short period before
1 the witness came into court, when more than one procedural matter could be
2 dealt with. The witness is here. I think in view of that, it might be
3 preferable, Mr. Apostolski, if we left it until later in the day to hear
4 from you on another matter.
5 Mr. Hutsch, good morning. I again remind you that the affirmation
6 you made still applies to your evidence.
7 WITNESS: FRANS-JOSEF HUTSCH [Resumed]
8 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Saxon.
9 Examination by Mr. Saxon: [Continued]
10 Q. Mr. Hutsch, before we begin today, I would like to remind both you
11 and myself that we need to speak slowly, and we need to pause between
12 questions and answers; all right?
13 Before we return to the notes that we were looking at yesterday,
14 I'd like to go back just briefly to some observations that you had made on
15 the morning of 12th of August at that first observation point.
16 You mentioned yesterday that you saw, through binoculars, a
17 Hermelin vehicle, a Hermelin APC. Do you recall saying that?
18 A. Yes, I would say.
19 Q. Did you notice any particular markings on that vehicle?
20 A. This vehicle is coloured in a green, and there were the badges
21 with "PM" on the sides of this Hermelin.
22 Q. And the letters "PM," what did that indicate to you?
23 A. Policia Macedonia.
24 Q. At any time around that time when you noticed the Hermelin APC,
25 did you happen to observe any other armoured personnel carriers?
1 A. I guess there were another BTR APC in this area as well.
2 Q. What is a BTR?
3 A. BTR, it's an APC for eight up to ten persons, with a top pick and
4 a 14.5 machine-gun inside it.
5 Q. Inside it or on it?
6 A. On it, in this top pick, in this tower.
7 Q. And what markings, if any, did you notice on this BTR armoured
8 personnel carrier?
9 A. These BTRs were coloured like the normal army APCs; and if they
10 were used by the police, they had these badges also on the sides and on
12 Q. What did the badges say?
13 A. "PM," Policia Macedonia.
14 Q. And during this time earlier the morning when you were making
15 these observations and you observed two groups of policemen going towards
16 Ljuboten village, did you observe, if I can put it this way, any normal
17 vehicles; that is, vehicles that were not armoured?
18 A. There were some -- some police Jeeps around in the area as well.
19 Q. What do you mean by "there were police Jeeps around in the area";
20 where did you see them?
21 A. This column in the north was followed by a Cherokee Jeep, a white
22 Cherokee Jeep, with the blue lights of the police.
23 Q. And any other markings on this Jeep, this white Cherokee Jeep?
24 A. As well, this normal sticker from the police.
25 Q. All right. If you can turn now, please, back to tab 11 in your
1 binder, which is again Rule 65 ter number 167. Yesterday, we started
2 looking at the notes that you wrote on the morning of the 12th of August,
3 and we stopped after discussing the notes.
4 Effectively, it's the first series of notes. It has ERN Number --
5 well, what we discussed yesterday began with the words: "Telephone, N.
6 Beqiri, at 0740 hours." Can you turn the page, please, to the next page.
7 MR. SAXON: And if, on e-court, we could go to the next page,
8 please. Thank you.
9 Q. Mr. Hutsch, the next page begins with the words: "0803." Do you
10 see that?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. What were you noting down on this page?
13 A. I was noting down there what I told you some minutes before, and
14 yesterday as well, that we had two columns. In the north, a column that
15 was supported by APCs; and in the south, they were attacking around this
16 Hill 631. And that the attack in the north, that is my suppose, my
17 imagination, my vision, is going into the direction of Ljuboten and
18 direction of the centre and the mosque.
19 Q. Just to go a little bit more slowly, the second line of this page,
20 we see the words: "MUP attack." Do you see that?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Just to be clear, the term "MUP" in your notes, what are you
23 referring to?
24 A. That is the -- the normal abbreviation under the journalists for
25 riot police, and, yeah, we were just using that through all the Balkan
1 conflict that we called just in referring to the Yugoslavian police. We
2 were calling them MUP.
3 Q. So in this context, does "MUP" refer to Macedonian police?
4 A. Yes, it is.
5 Q. Below that, after the first few notes, we see the words: "Info,
6 Carsten telephone, 0820 hours." Who is Carsten?
7 A. That is the correspondent of the news agency DPR, that's the
8 German news agency, Deutsche Presse Agentur. And he was the
9 correspondent, Balkan correspondent, and he was at this time in Skopje.
10 Q. Can you give us the last name of Carsten, please?
11 A. That's Carsten Hoffmann.
12 Q. And below the lines that say: "Carsten, telephone," was this
13 information you noted down provided by Carsten? Was there a telephone
14 call with Carsten?
15 A. Exactly. We had a phone call at 8.20, and I told Carsten what was
16 going on in Ljuboten or in Ljubanci, between the villages, and Carsten
17 told me that what is written under this -- this line: "Carsten
19 Q. The first line there says: "MUP attack on direct orders of B.,"
20 just a capital B there. Do you know or do you recall was referred to by
21 this capital B?
22 A. This is the former Minister of Interior, Ljube Boskoski.
23 Q. Below that, there's some language. It says: "Conflict between
24 Ministry of Defence, Ministry of the Interior, about conduct," and then it
25 says: "No NLA in LJU." What does LJU stand for?
1 A. LJU stands for "Ljuboten."
2 Q. So these notes here is information relayed to you by Carsten
4 A. Exactly. But I have to correct this translation. "V.M." Stands
5 for Minister of Defence, not for "ministry," and "IM," it's the
6 abbreviation for Minister of the Interior.
7 Q. Not Ministry of the Interior?
8 A. Exactly.
9 Q. All right. Can we turn to the next page, please?
10 The next page begins with the line: "No fire from Ljuboten - 0827
11 hours." Then below, it says: "Spearheads enter Ljuboten." Below that we
12 see: "Explosions, detonation flash south of orthodox church. Intense
14 "AK-fire," what does that stand for?
15 A. "MG-fire" means machine-gun fire.
16 Q. And "AK-fire," what does that refer to?
17 A. "AK," is AK-47. That's means the abbreviation for Kalashnikov.
18 Q. Below that it says: "Northwest town periphery. Individual RPG
20 "RPG," does that stand for rocket-propelled grenade?
21 A. Exactly.
22 Q. And at 08.34, below that, we see there's a note about the roof of
23 the house that the entry to town is on fire."
24 Were these observations then that you made?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Your Honour, at this point, I would ask that these notes be marked
2 for identification. I'm going to come back to them later, please.
3 JUDGE PARKER: They will be marked.
4 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P308, marked for identification, Your
6 MR. SAXON:
7 Q. Mr. Hutsch, yesterday you described how, apart from making notes
8 in your notebook, you had another method of recording information at this
9 time. You described how you used a map of the area, and on that map you
10 placed a plastic sheet; and then you described how you made notes with a
11 waterproof pen on that plastic sheet; right?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. I'd like you to look now, please, at what is tab 9 in your
14 binder -- actually, I apologise. Tab 10, please. Tab 10, which is an
15 enlargement of the map that is in tab 9. Tab 9 is 65 ter number 1027.
16 Tab 10, you see the map that's there?
17 A. Yeah. That is the sketch.
18 Q. No. I want you to look at the map. It should be a map.
19 A. That's tab 9?
20 Q. I apologise. It's in tab 9, then.
21 A. Yeah.
22 Q. All right. And is this map, that is provided for you in tab 9, is
23 this sort of a more focused version of the map that you used?
24 A. Yes, it is.
25 Q. I see I'm causing some confusion with the Defence, so I'm going to
1 go more slowly, please.
2 MR. METTRAUX: We're grateful to the Prosecution. I don't think
3 there is any confusion, but the wrong documents appear to be on the
5 MR. SAXON: Very well. If we could start with tab 9, please.
6 It's my fault. Tab 9, which is 65 ter 1027.
7 Q. Mr. Hutsch, please take a look at the map on the screen in front
8 of you. Is this a copy of the map that you used to make your markings on
9 the 12th of August?
10 A. Yes, it is.
11 Q. All right. Now, I believe in your binder, at tab 9 --
12 MR. SAXON: Perhaps, it would be simplest, Your Honour, if this
13 map could be tendered into evidence at this point.
14 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
15 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P309, Your Honours.
16 MR. SAXON:
17 Q. To make things easier to understand, the Prosecution has produced
18 a version of this map that focuses more directly on the areas of Ljubanci.
19 Do you see that map in your binder at tab 9?
20 A. Yes, I see.
21 MR. SAXON: Can I ask the usher's assistance, please, to place
22 this map on the ELMO.
23 And if I could ask the assistance of the audio-visual people, if
24 the projector could be as high as possible, please, so we can see more of
25 the map. Maybe that's it. There we go. Thank you.
1 Q. First of all, Mr. Hutsch, I have a question for you just so that
2 we understand the work that you did. On the left-hand side of the map, we
3 see, in a vertical line every couple of centimetres, some black numbers.
4 They start towards the top at 65, and they go down 64, 63, 62. Do you see
6 A. Yes, I see.
7 Q. All right. And then we also see, going horizontally in the center
8 of the map, we see some black numbers, 31, 32, 33, 34. Do you see those
10 A. Yes, I see.
11 Q. Okay. Now, when you began to make notes on a plastic sheet, how
12 did you use those numbers to assist you or those grids, if I can say it?
13 A. I used just a crossing of these grids to fix my plastic overlay so
14 that afterwards, when I had to take away the plastic overlay, I can find
15 it on every map with the same grid.
16 Q. All right. And where did you fix your plastic sheet, at what
17 coordinates on this map?
18 A. On 33-64.
19 Q. All right. If you can turn now, you should have also in tab 10
20 some copies of plastic sheets. And this would be 65 ter number, we'll
21 start with, 385, and this plastic sheet has an ERN number N003-0002.
22 Mr. Hutsch, could you take that plastic sheet that was in tab 11,
23 the first one, and place it on the map the way you did it on early in the
24 morning of Sunday, the 12th of August, please?
25 A. [Indicates]
1 MR. SAXON: Your Honours, at this time, I'd like to provide you
2 with a copy -- a hard copy of the image that you now see on your screen.
3 The Prosecution was able to produce them yesterday, and the Defence has
5 If I could ask the usher's assistance, please.
6 Q. All right. Mr. Hutsch, you've now placed the plastic sheet on the
7 map using the grid coordinates 33-64 as a marker. Can you tell us,
8 please, perhaps starting at the top, there is an arrow sort of at the top
9 of the map, towards the center. There's an arrow pointing up and the
10 letters or word "BRODE." Below that, it says "VVD," and below that, I
11 believe it says "TEE1." What were you recording there?
12 A. I was recording that in Brodec - I think I've got something lost
13 with the hole for the binder - so the last word, so we were talking about
14 Brodec. Brodec is a village, but I see here it's 500 metres more of this
15 arrow. And, in this village, there were located parts of a logistical
16 centre or logistical unit and parts of 1st Company.
17 Q. 1st Company of what?
18 A. Of the 3rd Battalion, 1st Guardist Brigade.
19 Q. Of the Army of Macedonia?
20 A. Exactly.
21 Q. All right. If we could move downwards, please, towards the center
22 of the map, and perhaps you could use that high-tech pointer that you just
23 had in your hands to indicate to the Judges what you're speaking about.
24 Can you slowly describe, there are some letters that say -- appear to
25 say: "T" - I'm not sure what the next letter is - it says: "1", and
1 below that it says: "MUP," and then there are some markings. What are
2 you recording there?
3 A. So here [Indicates], it's just the German abbreviation for
4 Tyler."Tyler" means parts, parts of the 1st Company, 3rd Battalion, 1st
5 Guardist Brigade of the Army of Macedonia, and they are in partly
6 positions in Ljubanci.
7 MR. SAXON: And for the record, the witness is pointing to some
8 blue lines on the map to the right of the number "1."
9 Q. Below that, we see the abbreviation: "MUP." What were you
10 recording there?
11 A. That's the assembly area, the attack starting position of police
12 forces. That means they are located in Ljubanci.
13 Q. Below that, we see the letters: "AB" and then: "10.8"; and below
14 that, we see a horizontal line and a figure that I could really describe.
15 Can you tell us what you were noting there?
16 A. This is the tactical -- tactical sign for mortars that seemed to
17 be there, and the word "Up" means "since." And then we have the "10th of
18 August," and that means parts of this police forces are there since the
19 10th of August.
20 Q. And then moving to the right now, first, we see a blue line going,
21 if I say -- no, no, Mr. Hutsch. Let me guide you. All right?
22 A. Mmm-hmm.
23 Q. We see a short blue line going from southwest, curving toward the
24 northeast, through the word "Ljubanci." Do you see that?
25 A. Yes, I see it.
1 Q. And then to the right of that, we see a similar line, but it's
2 black. And at the top of that line, we see the letters "AL." And to the
3 right of that black line, we see two arrows. Can you tell us what
4 information you were recording there?
5 A. That's a coordination line that every tactical operational leader
6 needs to coordinate an attack. So this is a so-called attack line. And
7 because I monitored the first incidents in this area around -- at 8.00 and
8 three minutes, and that's an unusual time for an attack. Normally, a
9 leader would give a clear attack time. That would mean -- and this meant
10 for me that the first spearheads had to cross this line at 8.00. That's
11 what I was writing here.
12 Q. What do those two arrows depict?
13 A. These two arrows shows the two groups: The northern attack group
14 of police forces and the southern attack group of police forces.
15 Q. And those two arrows indicate movement towards the village of
17 A. Yes, they do.
18 Q. All right. And the word "Ljuboten" is partly blocked by a circle,
19 but there's a circle there; and, inside the circle, we see the number
20 "22". What were you recording there?
21 A. It's not the number "22." It's the capital for " ZZ." That means
22 it's a part target of the attack. That means a leader has to give his
23 forces an objective and a target that they have to possess or they had to
24 conquer, doing something with them. And to make it much more easier to
25 coordinate fire and movement, he has to give them part targets on their
1 way to this main target.
2 And for me, it was clear that this target with "ZZ" is the part
3 target for this police forces that was around the mosque in Ljuboten. So
4 it was clearly to see by everybody because of the minarets, and it was
5 clear that you could defend it easily if you would have riot spread there.
6 And on the third, you are able to give their logistical support to
7 the attacking troops or to reinforce them.
8 Q. We also see now, above the village of Ljuboten, just above it,
9 there is a blue line, and it goes from the northwest towards the
10 southeast. And underneath the blue line, we see the letters "61008." Can
11 you tell us what you were depicting in this first blue line?
12 A. This first blue line is showing the area that is covered by the
13 2nd Company, 3rd Battalion, 1st Guardist Brigade from the Army. These
14 numbers are belonging to this circle. [Indicates]
15 Q. I'm sorry, Mr. Hutsch. The numbers 61008, those numbers refer to
16 the circle with the letters "ZZ" inside it?
17 A. No, with the other one, the blue line, the first one. That means
18 that was a target area for artillery/mortars, and we have impacts in this
19 area between 6.00 and 10.00 and eight minutes.
20 Q. Close to that blue line that you described a minute ago, there is
21 sort of an oval-shaped red circle, if I can describe it, and then there's
22 a blue line leading vertically down through the village of Rastak and down
23 to the village of Camorrista. Do you see that?
24 A. Yes, I see.
25 Q. And then there's a triangle or a question mark to the right of
1 that oval. What were you trying to depict here?
2 A. So first the blue line partly west of Rastak are positions -- are
3 the area that is covered by the 3rd Company, 3rd Battalion, 1st Guardist
4 Brigade of the Army; and in the northern part that is circled with red, we
5 have mortar fire that is fired by the NLA at 5.00 and 12 minutes in the
6 afternoon. So here we have had impacts; and the triangle means that in my
7 point of view, the NLA had a forward observer to lead the mortar fire into
8 this area, but I was not sure. So every information that was not
9 confirmed is marked with a question mark.
10 MR. SAXON: And just for the record, that question mark is just to
11 the left of the number 60; right?
12 A. Yes, it is.
13 Q. And, again, just to make sure that the record is clear, this
14 oval-shaped red circle, which you said -- I just want to be clear. Is it
15 your evidence that this circle represents the area where NLA artillery or
16 mortar fire shells were landing?
17 A. Exactly.
18 Q. All right. Mr. Hutsch, if we move down a bit to the northeast --
19 excuse me, the southeast, we see what looks a bit like a blue lightning
20 bolt. We see arrows at both ends. Can you tell us, please, what you were
21 depicting there?
22 A. That is a position for reconnaissance that is done by the army
23 between the single villages on the western or southwestern part of the
24 mountain and forested area.
25 Q. When you say "reconnaissance done by the army," which army are you
1 speaking about?
2 A. The Army of Macedonia.
3 Q. All right. If we can now direct your attention up, vertically up
4 on the map, sort of near the -- going towards the northeast corner of the
5 map, there is a number "62" in black, bold letters; and around that
6 number -- to the right of that number, "62," there are a number of
7 markings, some letters, and some numbers. Can you tell us, please, what
8 information you were recording there?
9 A. I'm recording there that the NLA is doing some reconnaissance
10 since 2.00 in the afternoon towards Ljuboten, that they build up a mortar
11 position with 60- up to 82-millimetre mortars from the NLA Brigade 114 in
12 this area. [Indicates] And that from 5.00 in the afternoon on,
13 reconnaissance is forwarded to Ljuboten from the NLA.
14 Q. What does that mean -- what do you mean when you say
15 "reconnaissance is forwarded to Ljuboten" or "NLA reconnaissance
16 forwarded to Ljuboten"? Can you be a bit clearer?
17 A. That means that -- that the leader of this reconnaissance troop
18 gets the order to go into Ljuboten and to see what is going on there.
19 Q. If you see your red arrows there going from the northeast towards
20 the southwest, those red arrows are pointing, if I can say this, sort of
21 down the mountains towards the village of Ljuboten. Is that correct?
22 A. That is correct.
23 Q. Do those red arrows indicate that members of the NLA reached the
24 village of Ljuboten?
25 A. No. That means that they are just doing their reconnaissance in
1 the direction of Ljuboten, but they've not already entered Ljuboten.
2 Q. All right. And, again, this information that you marked on this
3 plastic sheet, you -- this was information that you recorded from your
5 A. I recorded the information -- this information. [Indicates] I
6 recorded from my own observation.
7 Q. Can I interrupt you, please?
8 A. Yes.
9 MR. SAXON: For the record, the witness has just indicated with a
10 circle the information on this map around the villages of Ljubanci and
11 Ljuboten in black and blue letters -- in black and blue ink.
12 THE WITNESS: The information from -- about the placement of parts
13 of the army in Brodec were done by telephone investigation. What I saw is
14 the -- what I monitored were just the fire, when the rounds were fired in
15 this area. [Indicates]
16 Q. Can I interrupt you, Mr. Hutsch?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. For the record, you're indicating now the information related to
19 the NLA; right?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Okay. Can you carry on, please.
22 A. So the mortar position, I suppose that has been in this area
23 [Indicates] because I saw the start -- when the mortar grenades are put
24 into the mortar and it explodes, then you have a long fireball, and you
25 can see that. That's what I saw, as well as I saw the impacts in the area
1 of Rastak.
2 Q. And your information about NLA reconnaissance?
3 A. These information were given by Nazim Beqiri.
4 Q. Via telephone?
5 A. Via telephone, yes.
6 MR. SAXON: Your Honours, at this time I would seek to tender this
7 image with ERN N002-0002 with map.
8 JUDGE PARKER: You say "with map." You want the hard copy or the
9 image? It's the image you're thinking of, is it?
10 MR. SAXON: Yes, Your Honour.
11 JUDGE PARKER: Yes. That will be received as two parts of the one
13 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P310, Your Honours.
14 MR. METTRAUX: Your Honour. I apologise. Simply for the record,
15 we would make the same indication as we did yesterday in relation to the
16 previous map and drawing made by this witness.
17 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
18 MR. SAXON:
19 Q. If you could turn now to what is tab 15 in your binder,
20 Mr. Hutsch, and this is Rule 65 ter number 176. It's ERN number
22 Mr. Hutsch, do you see this panoramic photograph?
23 A. Yes, I see.
24 MR. SAXON: I apologise to the Court Officer. I've made a
25 mistake. I should have said 65 ter number 176 at tab 15.
1 It may simply be the next item in this ERN range. No, there it
2 is. There it is. Thank you very much.
3 Q. Mr. Hutsch, did you produce the annotations on this photograph?
4 A. Yes, I did.
5 Q. What view do we have now in this photograph? In other words, from
6 what direction towards what direction?
7 A. We have a view from north to south.
8 Q. And so if you can describe, please, it says: "Mortar rounds" on
9 the right-hand side in blue letters: "0800", and then we see two arrows
10 in blue: One has the word "South" underneath it. The other has the word
11 "North" underneath it. Can you tell me what those arrows show?
12 A. These two arrows show the two attack groups: The first in the
13 north entering the eastern part -- sorry, the western part of Ljuboten,
14 and the southern group that was surrounding Hill 631.
15 Q. So that southern group, you were able to follow their progress
16 because it wasn't blocked by Hill 631; right?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. All right. In the -- towards the middle of the photograph, we see
19 a black circle with an arrow leading up to "Impacts 0711." What are you
20 depicting here?
21 A. These are impacts, mortar impacts that we were told that were in
22 this area at 7.00 and 11 minutes.
23 Q. And then moving toward the left of this photograph, which I guess
24 would be moving from west to east, we see a large arrow in broken lines.
25 Do you see that, in blue?
1 A. Yes, I see.
2 Q. And there's a word "North" underneath the photograph pointing to
3 the arrow. What were you depicting here?
4 A. That is the future progress of the attack from the northern
5 attacking group, who are going -- who are attacking Ljuboten in direction
6 of the mosque.
7 Q. Now, when you were at Observation Point 1 and Hill 631 was in
8 front of you, were you able to follow, at that time, all of this progress
9 of the northern group?
10 A. No, I didn't, because the Hill 631 blocked my view on the progress
11 completely, so I didn't see the northern group with my own eyes when they
12 left Ljubanci.
13 Q. What, if anything, did you hear with relation to the northern
15 A. What I heard in the area where I guessed that the northern group
16 was attacking, that means along the street between Ljubanci and Ljuboten,
17 I heard MG fire, Kalashnikov fire, single APG shots. And, yeah, that
18 was -- that was what I could hear, some detonation flash.
19 Q. The information on this annotated photograph, did it come from
20 your notes?
21 A. Yes, it comes.
22 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, I would seek to tender this, please.
23 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
24 MR. METTRAUX: Your Honour, perhaps, instead of making the point
25 every time, we'll indicate that our point of yesterday will apply to all
1 of the pictures said to have been prepared or made pursuant to observation
2 on the 12th of August.
3 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
4 THE REGISTRAR: The document will be received as Exhibit P311,
5 Your Honours.
6 MR. SAXON:
7 Q. If we could look at, Mr. Hutsch, what is in tab 16 of your binder,
8 which is again an annotated photograph.
9 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
10 MR. SAXON:
11 Q. This is an annotated photograph from the same 65 ter number 176.
12 It has ERN number N001-7281, and this says at the top: "Sunday, 12 August
13 2001, progress of the attack." Did you make these annotations based on
14 your notes, Mr. Hutsch?
15 A. Yes, I did.
16 Q. On the right-hand side of the photograph, we see a circle in red,
17 and there's a line going up to the words: "Destination flash," and an
18 arrow going down to the note -- to the time "827." "Explosions," also
19 "RPG," below that "AK-47 fire," below that "Machine-gun fire," "Roof of a
20 house burns." Do you see that?
21 A. Yes, I see.
22 Q. And then moving towards the center of the photograph, we see a
23 blue arrow. What does that blue arrow indicate?
24 A. This blue arrow indicates the progress of the attack, going
25 towards the center of the village.
1 Q. And more toward the left, we see two blue circles with arrows
2 pointing down, and then the indication "0834, single mortar shells." What
3 do those blue circles indicate, then?
4 A. That indicates that in this area, we have had impacts of mortar.
5 So they were firing some -- some rounds into this areas.
6 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, I would seek to tender this document,
8 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
9 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P312, Your Honours.
10 MR. SAXON:
11 Q. Mr. Hutsch, at some point on that Sunday morning, did you decide
12 to change your location?
13 A. Yes, I did.
14 Q. And why did you do that?
15 A. Because since around 8.30, it shows me that I couldn't follow what
16 really was going on in the field, so -- because Hill 631 was blocking my
17 view to the incidents, what happened there.
18 Q. And so at that time what did you decide to do?
19 A. So we decided to change our position and to look for a new point
20 where we could follow on what was going on in Ljuboten.
21 Q. All right. Could you turn to tab 12 in your binder, please.
22 And, Your Honours, this is a printout of a panoramic photograph
23 from the Ljuboten panorama presentation. It has ERN number N005-7991.
24 And perhaps with the usher's assistance, could Mr. Hutsch's copy of this
25 large photograph be placed on the ELMO. We may need to move it a bit.
1 And do you know what, we may have a less rumpled version, perhaps, for
2 Mr. Hutsch. I'm grateful to Ms. Walpita for assisting me with that.
3 And I'm wondering if the audio-visual people could switch us to
4 the ELMO, because what I'm seeing is -- there we are. Thank you.
5 Q. Mr. Hutsch, could you please move this photograph to the left,
6 please. That's fine, just stop right there. And a little bit more to the
7 left, a little bit more to the left, a little bit more -- no, Mr. Hutsch,
8 go back the other way, please. Keep going, keep going, keep going.
9 We see here, in the left-hand corner, capital letters "OP-2." Do
10 you see that?
11 A. Yes, I see.
12 Q. Does this photograph depict the view that you had from the second
13 observation point that you went to?
14 A. Yes, it shows.
15 Q. All right. Do you have a marker there with you?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. All right. Perhaps starting on this side of the photograph, first
18 of all, approximately what time did you reach this observation point?
19 A. Between 8.45 and 9.00.
20 Q. And was this a better observation point for you than the first
21 observation point?
22 A. Yes, it was.
23 Q. Why?
24 A. Because as you have seen or you are seeing now, we had a close
25 view to Ljuboten and we could follow what was going on in Ljuboten from
1 this point of view.
2 Q. All right. Mr. Hutsch, could you please perhaps take that marker
3 and draw an arrow perhaps from one of those hills pointing down toward the
4 area where the village of Ljubanci would be, please.
5 A. [Marks]
6 Q. Mr. Hutsch, I'm confused by what you just did, because that arrow
7 is pointing out of the photograph. Do we see any of the village of
8 Ljubanci in this photograph?
9 A. We see parts of the village in this area. [Indicates]
10 Q. Will you circle that, please?
11 A. [Marks]
12 Q. So that would be the eastern portion of the village of Ljubanci?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. All right. Could you mark a number 1 above that circle, please?
15 A. [Marks]
16 Q. Thank you. Now moving the photograph to the right, now, if you
17 could move the photograph towards the right. Keep going, please. Now
18 stop there. Here are we see what is now the village of Ljuboten?
19 A. Yes, it is.
20 Q. Can you move the photograph further toward the right, please. And
21 there on the right side, we see the mosque and the minaret; right?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Can you draw an arrow down to that minaret, please.
24 A. [Marks]
25 Q. And just write the number "2" next to that arrow.
1 A. [Marks]
2 MR. SAXON: And, Your Honour, perhaps at this point could this
3 photograph be marked for identification?
4 JUDGE PARKER: It will be marked.
5 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P313, marked for identification, Your
7 MR. SAXON:
8 Q. Now, when you came to this location between 8.45 and 9.00, did you
9 continue to record things that you observed?
10 A. Yes, I did.
11 Q. Okay. And did you continue to record events in your notes?
12 A. Yes, I did.
13 MR. SAXON: Can we return, Your Honours, to what is now Exhibit
14 P308, please.
15 Q. Mr. Hutsch, this is at tab 11 of your binder. And just for the
16 record, the panoramic photograph that you saw a few minutes ago, the
17 second observation point that's been marked as Exhibit P313, when you were
18 at that position, Hill 631 was now behind you; is that right?
19 A. I was on the eastern part of Hill 631.
20 Q. Okay. Thank you for that. All right.
21 If you could turn now to what is the fifth page of your notes at
22 tab 11. It is a page where the first line says: "Individual symbol, see
23 original hits in area." And below that, we see a line that says:
24 "Telephone Beqiri, 0917 hours." Below that, we see: "0925 hours.
25 According to army information, no NLA in the village." Below that:
1 "0928. Trying to find out if there are Alis as printed."
2 Did this information come to you via the telephone?
3 A. Yes, they did.
4 Q. This entry for 0928: "Trying to find out if there are Alis," can
5 you -- and on the next page, it actually says: "If there are Alis in
6 there," and then we see the words: "Operation supposedly only by MUP."
7 Do you see that?
8 A. Yes, I see.
9 Q. What does this note mean: "Trying to find out if there are Alis
10 in there"? What does that mean?
11 A. So "Alis" was a term in referring to Ali Ahmeti, if members of the
12 NLA are inside the village of Ljuboten.
13 Q. So the term "Alis" referred to members of the NLA?
14 A. Exactly.
15 Q. All right. And so then if we keep going on that page --
16 MR. METTRAUX: Your Honour, I apologise to my colleague, but will
17 Mr. Saxon ask the witness where the information came from, perhaps?
18 MR. SAXON: Well --
19 JUDGE PARKER: I don't think we've got to the information yet.
20 MR. METTRAUX: I understood the Prosecutor to turn to the next
21 page, Your Honour, or to be trying to turn to the next page.
22 MR. SAXON: That's fine. I believe I can clarify that.
23 Q. This information regarding: "First no NLA in the village at 0925"
24 and 0928: "Trying to find out if there are Alis in there," do you recall
25 what institution this information came from?
1 A. So what I can provide is that the second source, at 9.00 and 28
2 minutes, was a member of the UBK. That is the Intelligence of the
3 Ministry of the Interior.
4 Q. And can you tell us anything about the source for the information
5 at 0925?
6 A. This source was a member of the Ministry of Defence.
7 Q. All right. If we turn now to the next page --
8 MR. METTRAUX: Your Honour, I must insist, in relation to this
9 matter, could -- will the Prosecution ask Mr. Hutsch to identify the
10 sources of that information? By that, I mean by their name. Thank you.
11 MR. SAXON: I'm sorry if there's lack of clarity. I thought it
12 was clear that this witness will not identify certain sources, and I
13 believe -- but I'll ask it for the record.
14 JUDGE PARKER: Names to be put for the record.
15 MR. SAXON: I'll ask it for the record.
16 Q. Are you willing to provide us with the identities of these sources
17 you've just referred to?
18 A. No, I would not. And after I wrote -- I read an interview with
19 Mrs. Residovic, who claimed how witnesses are to be protected and sources
20 are to be protected, I think she will understand very well that especially
21 in this case, I have to protect my sources, as a journalist.
22 MR. SAXON: If we can move, please --
23 MR. METTRAUX: Your Honour, before we move on, perhaps a point of
25 If the Prosecution could ask Mr. Hutsch if he is claiming that
1 these two persons whom he refused to identify were used as sources by his
2 work as a journalist, that may be relevant to further matters, Your
4 MR. SAXON: Well, Your Honour, Mr. Hutsch was working as a
5 journalist at this time.
6 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Saxon, I think the question suggested is a
7 proper one.
8 MR. SAXON: All right.
9 Q. Mr. Hutsch, the sources that you had at this time, were these
10 sources of information that you used during your work as a journalist in
11 Macedonia in 2001?
12 A. Yes, I did.
13 Q. If we can move to the entry at 0948 hours, it says: "Telephone
14 Ejup Hamiti. They or we are trying to leave the village through the
15 riverbed." Below that: "OSCE not allowed into village."
16 "At 1007 hours from the Information Press Office IM," does "IM"
17 refer to the Ministry of the Interior?
18 A. Yes, it is.
19 Q. Below that, it says: "Ljube on his way to Ljuboten."
20 A. Yes, it is.
21 MR. SAXON: I think I can --
22 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Mettraux.
23 MR. METTRAUX: Thank you very much, Your Honour. Mr. Saxon has
24 just asked the witness about the particular entry referring to the
25 Information Press Office. Could the witness be asked or should the
1 Prosecution perhaps ask who Mr. Hutsch says he talked to on that day in
2 the Information Press Office of the Ministry of the Interior?
3 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Saxon.
4 MR. SAXON:
5 Q. Mr. Hutsch, are you willing to provide the identity of the person
6 in the Interior Ministry Information Press Office who provided this
8 A. So my interpreter was calling the Press Information Centre and the
9 Ministry of the Interior, and it shouldn't be difficult for the Defence to
10 see the duties schedules, who was on duty at this time in the press
11 office, because it was usual just to -- to take the statements of the
12 spokespersons. And it is usual also for journalists not to name the
13 spokesperson with their name, so it was either for us who we spoke to. We
14 just need the official statement from the Ministry of the Interior.
15 Q. Mr. Hutsch, can I take your response to be a "no"?
16 A. Yes.
17 JUDGE PARKER: I don't know that that follows. As I understood
18 what Mr. Hutsch was saying, it is that he does not know who was the
19 spokesperson for the Ministry. Is that what you were saying?
20 THE WITNESS: No. There was a group of spokespersons, Your
21 Honour, and I don't know exactly who we spoke to or my interpreter spoke
22 to in this moment.
23 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. Whereas, you are saying, with respect
24 to the previous people that were contacted, you do know who were the
25 individuals that you contacted?
1 THE WITNESS: Yes.
2 JUDGE PARKER: But you say that you are not wanting to disclose
3 their names?
4 THE WITNESS: Exactly.
5 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Saxon.
6 MR. SAXON:
7 Q. Below the entry at 1007 hours, we see an entry --
8 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Mettraux.
9 MR. METTRAUX: Your Honour, I'm really sorry to interject again,
10 but this witness has indicated that the contact person within the Ministry
11 of Interior whom he says was contacted on that day was contacted by his
12 interpreter, and I understood that Mr. Saxon would pursue this matter so
13 that we can identify who this interpreter is.
14 MR. SAXON:
15 Q. Mr. Hutsch, for the record, are you willing to provide the Chamber
16 with the name of your interpreter or interpreters who were working with
17 you on the 12th of August, 2001?
18 A. No, I'm not willing, because - and I think that we did all right,
19 in the first part of my statement here - that I made clear why these
20 interpreters would come under pressure if I would close -- disclose their
22 Q. There is now an entry at 1100 hours. It says: "Explosions, RPG,
23 machine-gun, AK-47." Do you see that?
24 A. Yes, I see.
25 Q. This entry, was this information that came from your own
1 observations at the second observation point?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. So what were you describing here?
4 A. I was describing that what I saw in the area of the -- of the
5 mosque, that I could hear some explosions, RPG, MG, Kalashnikov fire in
6 the north part of Ljuboten, that means in the area around the monastery
7 and the street above the -- not the monastery, the mosque, and the street
8 above the mosque. And this fire were going slowly to south.
9 Q. Can I stop you there, please. You use the word "fire here."
10 By the word "fire," are you referring to flames or are you referring to
11 something else?
12 A. I'm referring to -- to rifle fire and skirmish fire.
13 Q. Gunfire?
14 A. Yeah.
15 Q. Then on that page we see: "Nine houses burning," and below that
16 we see: "Question mark, reinforcement, approximately one platoon from
17 Ljubanci to Ljuboten." Can you describe what you were noting down at that
19 A. The first is that all over the village from Ljubanci, I -- from
20 Ljuboten, I was counting nine houses that were burning; and that from
21 Ljubanci going to Ljuboten, another platoon of police officers, that means
22 around 25 up to 30 police officers, were marching in direction to
24 Q. How did you know this group of people were police officers?
25 A. You could see clearly the camouflage uniform with the police badge
1 on the left arm and the right of Macedonia on the right arm.
2 Q. Were you making these observations with binoculars?
3 A. Yes, I did.
4 Q. Below that, there's another entry: "Information Press Office,
5 Interior Ministry," at 1123 hours. It says: "Boskoski in Ljuboten."
6 First of all, do you know who the source of this information was?
7 A. One of the spokespersons in the Ministry of the Interior.
8 Q. But you don't know which one?
9 A. No.
10 Q. And then below that, we see, at 1150 hours, it says: "MUP," or
11 the police, "at check-point Radu are camouflaging." What does that mean?
12 A. We got a phone call, that means my Albanian interpreter got a
13 phone call from an Albanian source, who told him that police officers in
14 Radusani put masks over their face.
15 Q. Are you willing to provide the identity of that source?
16 A. I don't know which -- which Albanian source that was, and I'm not
17 willing to give the name of my interpreter.
18 Q. All right. To continue, we see at 1215 hours -- before we move on
19 to 1215 hours, later on in the afternoon -- I'm going to move on.
20 At 1215 hours, we see the notes: "14 houses burning, rifle fire
21 waning." And then on the next page, we see the entry: "Two platoons, MUP
22 and Hermelin, from Ljuboten direction, Ljubanci."
23 Can you explain what you were noting there, please?
24 A. So at 12.15, I was counting all in all 14 houses burning. The
25 gunfire was waning, and around 50 police officers and an unknown number of
1 Hermelin APCs were leaving Ljuboten, that means the eastern part of
2 Ljuboten, in direction of the western part and Ljubanci.
3 Q. The transcript is a little bit unclear. What I see in the English
4 transcript, it says this: "The gunfire was waning," or," or winding down,
5 and: "Around 50 police officers in unknown number of Hermelin APCs ..."
6 Is that what you meant to say, or can you clarify that, please?
7 A. I was just writing two platoons of police officers and Hermelin.
8 So just to make it much more clear, because the phrase "platoon" may not
9 clear for everybody, I gave the number around 50 police officers, that
10 means two platoons. And "Hermelin," I didn't write a number before it,
11 that means for me it was an unknown number of Hermelin, approximately one.
12 Q. All right. And then below that, we see, at 1300 hours the entry:
13 "Fire weaker. Approximately 20 houses burning. Group of about 50
14 refugees at southern periphery of Ljuboten, direction Radu." This note
15 about 50 so-called refugees, can you explain what you were noting down
17 A. There was around 50 inhabitants from Ljuboten leaving the village.
18 They tried to leave the village through the -- through the small valley in
19 direction of Radusani.
20 Q. And you were observing this through your binoculars?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Below that, at 1324 hours, there is a note related to a telephone
23 call to Beqiri. Again, this is the person you referred to as the NLA
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. It says: "MUP killed people in Ljuboten. At least three dead."
2 Something at "5th Street. Boskoski in Ljuboten," and then:
3 "Negotiations, OSCE, EU and NATO."
4 If you can recall, what were these negotiations referring to? Do
5 you know?
6 A. Nazim Beqiri told us that there were some negotiations between
7 OSCE, European Union, NATO, and the Macedonian Government that should lead
8 to a stop of the attack.
9 Q. And if you turn the page, actually, to the next page, we see
10 actually that note continues. So it reads first "Negotiations" and then
11 it says: "With Macedonian government failed. No end of attack." Is that
12 what you wrote down in your note?
13 A. Yes, exactly.
14 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, I see the time. Would this be a good
15 time to take the first break?
16 JUDGE PARKER: Very well, Mr. Saxon. We must have the first
17 break, reconvening at 11.00.
18 --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.
19 --- On resuming at 11.15 a.m.
20 JUDGE PARKER: The Chamber must apologise to everybody. Another
21 matter arose unexpectedly and which delayed us. Sorry to have kept you
22 for waiting.
23 Yes, Mr. Saxon.
24 MR. SAXON: Thank you, Your Honour.
25 Q. Witness, Mr. Hutsch, before we leave your notes for the time
1 being, again just to clarify, these notes that we've looked at on pages 5
2 through 8 of your notes of 12 August 2001, all of these notes you made
3 either pursuant to your own observations or information you received via
4 telephone calls; is that correct?
5 A. That is correct.
6 Q. Again, when you were at Observation Point 2 on the 12th of August,
7 did you also record information on plastic sheets, plastic overlays on a
9 A. Yes. Yes, I did.
10 Q. All right. If I can ask you, please, if we can move back to tab 9
11 in your binder, which is Prosecution Exhibit 309.
12 Mr. Hutsch, again, this map you see in front of you, is this the
13 map that you were working with at Observation Point 2?
14 A. Yes, it is.
15 Q. All right. If you can turn now to tab 10, please, in your binder,
16 and, again, you should have a plastic overlay, a plastic sheet, and the
17 A3-sized map of Ljuboten to place on the ELMO. Maybe the usher could
18 assist you with that.
19 Before you do that, Mr. Hutsch, did you use the same grid
20 coordinates, I think, 33-64, to mark where you placed your plastic sheet?
21 A. Yes. Both crosses are the same, I think, yeah.
22 Q. Now, on the ELMO, can you please place that plastic sheet on the
23 map at the same coordinates.
24 MR. SAXON: And, again, to assist Your Honours, the Prosecution
25 has created copies of the image you now see on your computer screen. The
1 Defence have a copy, and if the usher could provide these hard copies to
2 you, I'd be grateful.
3 So now we see this map with the plastic overlay N003-0003 on top
4 of it. Mr. Hutsch, tell us, please, what is the information that you've
5 recorded on this map? Perhaps you could start with sort of a long, dark
6 line that has the letters "AL" at one end of it.
7 A. So this is just the history of the skirmish. That means we have
8 here this attacking line. [Indicates] It means the start where the
9 police forces crossed the street in the direction of Ljuboten. We have
10 here "12" is the day, that means the 12th of August, 8.00, and "AL,"
11 attack line.
12 What we have in blue -- sorry.
13 Q. Perhaps, if we could just go to the right of that line, we see two
14 arrows, one a bit further north than the other. What do these arrows
16 A. Both arrows are representing the attacking groups. The northern
17 one is showing that it is the spear point of this attack.
18 Q. All right. And then just to the right of those heads of those
19 arrows, we see a dotted line, and it has the numbers "0830" at the upper
20 end of it. What are you depicting there?
21 A. This shows the line where the attack has been at 8.30, around
23 Q. All right. And then to the right of that dotted line -- first of
24 all, towards the bottom of that dotted line, we see "0845." So does that
25 dotted line represent events between those two time periods or no?
1 A. Sorry?
2 Q. We see "0830" at the top of that dotted line?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And towards the bottom, we see "0845." What does "0845" refer to?
5 A. That means that the advance of this position. [Indicates]
6 Q. And for the record, the witness is referring to a short, dark
8 A. That was reached at 8.45.
9 Q. Above that short, dark semicircle, we see what looks like a blue
10 dot with an arrow pointing up. What does that mean?
11 A. That's an impact area for mortars.
12 Q. All right. Can you describe, then, what is in -- what we see in
13 blue colour to the right of those lines?
14 A. All these blue circles show impact areas of mortar fire.
15 Q. All right. And the times next to those blue circles?
16 A. Those show the time when these impacts went down there.
17 Q. So we see one at 0607 and then another at 1018; right?
18 A. Exactly.
19 Q. Now, by 1018, you were at Observation Point 2; right?
20 A. Right.
21 Q. Below the indication for 1018, we see another dotted line and an
22 indication of 1220. What does that indicate?
23 A. This line [Indicates] shows the advance of the attack at 20
24 minutes past 12.00.
25 Q. Below that, we see a short, thick, dark line and the letters
1 "1238." What does that indicate?
2 A. That is the final position of the police forces at 12.00 and 38
4 Q. Now, to the east of the village of Ljuboten on this map now, we
5 see what looked like red arrows or bolts of lightning; and then further to
6 the east, we see a small half circle and some writing in red. Can you
7 tell us what information is recorded there?
8 A. These are information about the NLA. That means that we have, in
9 this area [Indicates], a position, a fighting position of the 2nd
10 Battalion of the 114th NLA Brigade.
11 Q. Can I interrupt you? Just for the record, the witness had been
12 indicating a red half circle to the right of the numbers "1400."
13 If you can continue, Mr. Hutsch, please.
14 A. It shows the two directions of reconnaissance in the north and in
15 the south. Both reconnaissance troops had been sent out around 2.00 in
16 the afternoon. And it shows there [Indicates] the already common-known
17 mortar position of the NLA.
18 MR. SAXON: And for the record, this is a red mark next to the
19 numbers "1645."
20 Q. And did you record this information on this map based on what you
21 observed at Observation Points 1 and 2?
22 A. Yes.
23 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, I would seek to tender this map, with the
24 plastic overlay that has N002-0003 on it.
25 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
1 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P314, Your Honours.
2 MR. SAXON:
3 Q. If you could turn, Mr. Hutsch, to what is tab 5 in your binder.
4 I apologise, Your Honours, I misspoke. What we need to see now is
5 the item at tab 17, which is again from 65 ter number 176, and it has the
6 ERN number N001-7882.
7 Mr. Hutsch, do you see this annotated photograph?
8 A. Yes, I see.
9 Q. Did you make these annotations?
10 A. Yes, I did.
11 Q. Did the annotations come from your notes of the 12th of August,
13 A. Yes, they did.
14 Q. Again, now, does this photograph show a view of the Ljuboten and
15 Ljubanci area from the north, looking toward the south?
16 A. Yes, it shows.
17 Q. Can you look to the right part of the photograph first. You see a
18 small blue circle and then an arrow pointed up, and it says: "My
19 observation position ..." -- let me start earlier. That blue arrow, is
20 that the -- does that indicate Observation Point 2?
21 A. Yes, exactly.
22 Q. And then the annotation says: "My observation position from
23 around 1045 hours." Do you see that?
24 A. Yes, I see.
25 Q. Is that time correct?
1 A. That time is incorrect.
2 Q. What time, approximately, then, did you get to Observation Point
4 A. Between 8.45 and 9.00.
5 Q. All right. There is a heavy black arrow going, I believe, from
6 west to east and some annotations below it. Can you tell us -- can you
7 describe what you were describing there?
8 A. This is the reinforcement by one platoon, that means 25 up to 30
9 police officers, who entered Ljuboten from Ljubanci.
10 Q. All right. We see the words "11.00, nine houses burning," in
11 green; and then further towards the left, we see a very rough circle in
12 blue and then the letters: "11.00. Explosions, heavy RPG. Machine-gun,
13 AK-47 fire."
14 Is this information that you observed, then, from Observation
15 Point 2?
16 A. Yes, it is.
17 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, I would seek to tender this photograph.
18 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
19 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P315, Your Honours.
20 MR. SAXON:
21 Q. Now, briefly, can we return, please, to what is tab 12 in the
22 binder. It is that large map that's actually on the desk in front of
23 you -- excuse me, the large photograph, showing the view from Observation
24 Point 2.
25 MR. SAXON: And, perhaps, if that could be placed again on the
1 ELMO. For the record, it's marked for identification Exhibit P313.
2 I'm very sorry. Perhaps, if the usher could give the version that
3 the witness has already made some annotations on, I think that would be
4 the best way.
5 Q. Mr. Hutsch, if you could please write on the bottom of that
6 photograph, towards the left-hand side, the indication "0845 to 0900."
7 A. [Marks]
8 Q. And then perhaps "12 August 2001."
9 A. [Marks]
10 MR. SAXON: Thank you. Your Honours, I would seek to now tender
11 what has been marked for identification as Exhibit 313 -- P313.
12 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
13 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P313, Your Honours.
14 MR. SAXON:
15 Q. And if you could turn now, please, to what is tab 18 in your
16 binder, Mr. Hutsch. This is again from 65 ter number 176. It has ERN
18 Mr. Hutsch, do you see this photograph?
19 A. Yes, I see.
20 Q. At the top, it says: "PP6, Sunday - 12 August 2001" in blue
21 letters; and below that, it says: "End of the attack."
22 Did you make the annotations on this photograph?
23 A. Yes, I did.
24 Q. The information on this photograph, is this information that you
25 observed from Observation Point 2?
1 A. Yes, I did.
2 Q. And we see, for example, in the middle, we see the time, "12.15."
3 And we see a heavy blue arrow, this time indicating direction from east to
4 west. What were you indicating with this arrow?
5 A. This is the withdrawal from two platoons, that means around 50
6 police officers and a Hermelin, towards Ljubanci.
7 Q. And above that blue arrow, we see a red circle; and then on both
8 sides of that red circle, we see a dotted red line, one going off towards
9 the east and the other going off towards the west. What were you
10 depicting here with the red line?
11 A. The red lines are ways of refugee groups that left Ljuboten to
12 southeast and southwest.
13 Q. And then toward the left of the photograph, more toward the
14 eastern -- going toward the eastern part of Ljuboten, we see an area
15 marked in green and an arrow pointing down. What were you trying to show
16 with this green area?
17 A. In this area, around six houses were burning.
18 Q. And, again, for the record, this is a view now from the north
19 looking towards the south; right? The photograph depicts what someone
20 would see from the north looking towards the south?
21 A. Yes. Yes, it is.
22 Q. All right. At some point, Mr. Hutsch, after, to use your term,
23 "the end of the attack," did you decide to leave Observation Point 2?
24 A. Yes. I decided to leave the observation point because we had, for
25 30, 45 minutes, no incidents more monitored.
1 Q. All right. And so what did you do -- approximately, when did you
2 leave Observation Point 2?
3 A. 1.00, 1.15.
4 Q. And where did you go from Observation Point 2?
5 A. We went to the street between Ljubanci and Radusani in direction
6 to Skopje.
7 Q. And did you then -- was that your intended destination, Skopje, or
8 was your intended destination somewhere else?
9 A. No. Our plan was to circle just way around, to enter the area
10 east-southeast of Ljuboten.
11 Q. I see. All right. Perhaps with the usher's assistance, because
12 we have a pen that works with that computer screen, I'd like to ask you,
13 if you can, just roughly, to draw on the image on the computer screen the
14 route you took to get -- to try to get close to the area of the eastern
15 part of Ljuboten. And you can go off the photograph, if necessary. We
16 understand that not everything can be shown on the photograph.
17 A. So that's the point where we are. [Indicates] So first we went
18 in western direction, followed the street going to Radusani [Marks], out
19 of the picture going to the outskirts of Skopje [Marks], did a circle for
20 around 270 degrees, and entered this street that is leading as well to
21 Skopje. [Indicates]
22 Q. And when you say "this street," you just drew a red line on the
23 upper left-hand side of the photograph?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And is that street coming close to the eastern part of Ljuboten?
1 A. Yes, it is.
2 Q. All right. And, approximately, what time did you enter that
3 street that you just indicated with that red line?
4 A. 2.30, around.
5 Q. 1430 hours?
6 A. Yes.
7 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, I would now seek to tender this item,
9 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
10 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P316, Your Honours.
11 MR. SAXON:
12 Q. And when you reached that area, did you stop at some point?
13 A. Yeah. Around -- yes. Around two kilometres south of the
14 Ljuboten, there was another police check-point just in a curve that
15 leads -- if you're coming from the south, going to north, in a western
17 Q. All right. Can you turn, please, to what is tab 19 in your
19 MR. SAXON: Your Honours, this is from 65 ter number 199.2.21. It
20 has N004-4579. If I could have the Court's indulgence so that I don't
21 confuse the record. This same photograph is at page 15 of the Court
23 I'm going to ask the witness perhaps to annotate this, but first
24 of all -- we'll wait a few minutes. It's my fault, because I wasn't clear
25 on what I wanted.
1 Q. Mr. Hutsch, do you see the photograph in front of you?
2 A. Yes, I see.
3 Q. Do you recognise the area depicted in this photograph?
4 A. Yes. That's the area where the other check-point was established.
5 Q. And when you say "the other check-point," whose check-point was
7 A. That was a check-point that was occupied by police forces.
8 Q. How did you know at the time that these persons were police
10 A. They were wearing camouflage uniforms with police badges on their
12 Q. Can you help us, please. Could you take that pen again that is
13 attached to the computer.
14 MR. SAXON: Maybe the usher could assist us.
15 Q. And if you could indicate with an arrow, could you point to an
16 area where the check-point was, the police check-point?
17 A. [Marks]
18 Q. All right. And for the record, above that circle that you've
19 drawn, could you write the letters "CP" for "Check-point."
20 A. [Marks]
21 Q. If we can go a bit slowly, please. Did you personally drive all
22 the way up to the check-point?
23 A. No. My interpreter was driving while I was sitting on the seat
24 beneath him.
25 Q. Did you stay in the vehicle all the way up to the check-point?
1 A. No.
2 Q. Why not?
3 A. In this situation, for me it was -- or it seems to be much more
4 safer to leave the car with my Macedonian-speaking language assistant,
5 interpreter, and just to go by foot to this check-point.
6 Q. Why, in your opinion at the time, was that the safest -- a safer
7 way to approach the check-point?
8 A. So, if we would just come with a car, somebody might have thought
9 that we are doing something bad, that we are belonging, for example, to
10 the NLA. You have to be aware that in March there was an incident in
11 Tetovo where two members of the NLA were passing a check-point of the
12 police. When they were stopped, they left the car and they tried to throw
13 hand grenades into the check-point. So there were, for security reasons,
14 good arguments to leave the car and to show there's nothing and we are
15 just friends.
16 Q. And when you refer to this incident in March in Tetovo, this is
17 March 2001?
18 A. March 2001.
19 Q. All right. These police officers, could you tell whether they
20 were regular police officers, reservists, or what?
21 A. What I believe is that they were reserve officers, reserve police
23 Q. All of them?
24 A. I think the commanders have been regular officers.
25 Q. And how could you distinguish a regular police officers versus the
2 A. Normally, the active police officers were much polite, more
3 self-confident in their behaviour when they spoke, for example, with
4 journalists or with other people. They seemed to be much more
5 professional than reservist officers.
6 Q. All right. And was that the case when you approached this
8 A. Yes, it was.
9 Q. Can you tell us, please, how these police officers were armed, if
10 they were armed?
11 A. Some of them were armed with AK-47 Kalashnikov rifles, and others
12 just with pistol.
13 Q. When you approached this check-point, apart from the police
14 officers, did you notice any other persons present?
15 A. There were a group of around 30 ethnical Albanians present.
16 Q. And how was this group of 30 ethnic Albanians dressed?
17 A. They were dressed in civilian clothes.
18 Q. And was it a mixture of men, women, and children?
19 A. Yes, it was a mixture.
20 Q. And what happened to this group of around 30 persons?
21 A. Most of the women and children were just in the field partly south
22 of the check-point.
23 Q. Can you do us a favour, please. Can you take up that pen again
24 and mark a smaller circle around the area where you saw the women and
1 A. [Marks]
2 Q. And to the left of that smaller circle, could you draw the number
3 "1," please.
4 A. [Marks]
5 Q. And so then how about the ethnic Albanian men in this group, what
6 was going on with them?
7 A. Most of them were laying on the asphalt of the road, and they were
8 searched and beaten by these police officers.
9 Q. And did you personally observe this?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. What, if anything, did the police officers use to beat these
12 ethnic Albanian men?
13 A. I just saw when they were using their hands and their feet.
14 Q. All right. What were these police officers wearing on their feet?
15 A. The police officers were wearing army boots and normal black
17 Q. While this beating was going on, what, if anything, did you hear
18 these policemen say?
19 A. They shouted to the -- to these men that they were terrorists.
20 Q. And what else, if anything, did you hear the police officers say?
21 Please tell us literally.
22 A. They said the translation for, "fuck your mother," so the
23 Serbian -- the Macedonian word for that was "picka ti mater."
24 Q. What observation did you make about the conditions of the men who
25 were on the asphalt road, being beaten?
1 A. These men were highly frightened. Some of them tried to cover
2 their body, and they were screaming.
3 Q. Did you observe any injuries on these men lying on the road?
4 A. Yes, some hematome [phoen]?
5 Q. "Hematoma," is that the word?
6 A. Hematoma.
7 Q. And anything else?
8 A. No, just that some blood were coming out when they were hit in
9 their face, from their nose, for example.
10 Q. All right. And did you notice the behaviour of a particular
11 police officer at the time while the beating -- when the beating was going
13 A. So the commanding officers, one was, yeah, I think, something
14 doing like organising this scene, the scenario. So, for example, when one
15 of these men were already searched, he was brought to a truck or to Jeeps
16 in this area, while the other one was motivating his subordinates to beat
17 in a right way.
18 Q. Can you be a little bit clearer about that. How was this person
19 you refer to as the commander, how was he motivating the police officers,
20 to use your language, "to beat the persons in the right way"? What was he
22 A. He was taking his -- or he was shaking his arm and showing them
23 you have to beat in this way, and then he beat the man on the ground,
25 Q. All right. And did that have an effect on the other police
2 A. It seems for me that they were beating much more harder to the men
3 who were laying on the ground.
4 Q. These ethnic Albanian men who were laying on the ground, did you
5 notice what they were wearing on their feet?
6 A. They were normal shoes and normal sports shoes.
7 Q. And while these beatings were taking place, the women and the
8 children who were on this photograph a bit to the left of the curve in the
9 road, what were they doing?
10 A. They were mostly screaming.
11 MR. SAXON: All right. If I could ask the usher's assistance one
12 more time.
13 Q. Mr. Hutsch, could you take up that pen again that's attached to
14 the computer and perhaps indicate, either with a circle or a line, where
15 on the road the beatings were taking place.
16 A. Some of them in this line. [Marks] And some also here. [Marks]
17 Q. On the first line that you drew just within that circle, could you
18 write the number "2" above it, please?
19 A. [Marks]
20 Q. And on the lower line that you drew along the road, could you
21 write the number "3" below it?
22 A. [Marks]
23 MR. SAXON: Your Honours, I would seek to tender this image,
25 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
1 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P317, Your Honours.
2 MR. SAXON:
3 Q. Mr. Hutsch, when you got to this check-point, what did you --
4 actually, let me go a little bit more slowly.
5 When the beatings stopped, what happened to these men who had been
6 beaten on the road?
7 A. They have been brought to police vehicles, and these police
8 vehicles left in direction to Skopje.
9 Q. How do you know these vehicles were police vehicles? How did you
11 A. They had the normal police plates on the sides, that means it's a
12 white plate, then three numbers, then like a turned triangle; and in this
13 triangle, it's "PM" written and, again, three numbers.
14 Q. And when you refer to the plate, you're referring to the license
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Did you want to stop at that check-point?
18 A. No. In the discussion that my Macedonian interpreter had with
19 this, I'd say, organizing police officer, we saw the chance that we could
20 go further to Ljuboten just by handing over some presents.
21 Q. And do you recall what this person who appeared to be an observer
22 or commander, did he say anything about the ethnic Albanians to you?
23 A. He said that these are terrorists, that they have been captured
24 now, and they will be brought to prison/to court.
25 Q. You say that you gave some presents. Can you be a little bit more
1 specific? What present or presents did you provide to this gentleman?
2 A. So we provide 100 German marks; and if I remember right, we hand
3 over also two bottles of liquor.
4 Q. And then did you and your colleagues pass through the check-point?
5 A. Yes, we did.
6 Q. And did you enter the village of Ljuboten then?
7 A. Yes, we did.
8 Q. When you started to enter the village of Ljuboten, did you
9 continue to take notes?
10 A. No. We stopped already to make notes because we would like to
11 have, in any situation, the scenario very calm.
12 Q. And so can you explain to us, help us understand, why would
13 stopping taking notes help keep your situation calm?
14 A. If you are just passing by, first, it seems for somebody outside
15 that you are just a grey mouse that nobody will pay attention to. Second,
16 if somebody will see that you start writing something or do some
17 photographs, he is sure that there will be a witness for that what he is
18 doing or that somebody might have, in footsteps, an enemy purpose on him.
19 So it is always better, if you are going into a battlefield, to
20 stop making notes and, yeah, just to be there.
21 Q. So what did you do with your notebook, then, at that time?
22 A. We hide it in the car.
23 Q. I'd like to ask you to turn back now to what is tab 11 in your
24 binder. This has been marked for identification as Exhibit P308, and,
25 again, these are the notes that you took on the 12th of August, 2001.
1 MR. SAXON: And if the Court Officer could assist us, please, by
2 bringing up on e-court the ninth page of these notes.
3 Q. Here we see, on the ninth page, at 1449 hours, you wrote the
4 following: "Group of refugees at check-point. Radu (about 30)."
5 What does the abbreviation "Radu" stand for?
6 A. This abbreviation is "Radusana."
7 Q. All right. Then it says: "Men must lie down on the ground, are
8 being beaten, kicked." Then it says: "Three young men bleeding on nose,
9 mouth, and eyebrows."
10 Do you see that?
11 A. Yes, I see.
12 Q. Check-point Radisani, is that correct?
13 A. Well, what we didn't have on this moment, we didn't have the time
14 to take the grids out of the map or we hadn't the time yet to have a code
15 name for this check-point. So it is similar in the height in the map to
16 the other one in Radusani, which is just on the opposite side. So it was
17 clear to us that this new check-point, we don't have a name for it.
18 Q. When you say it's similar to the height, are you speaking in a
19 topographic sense or a cartographic sense?
20 A. Exactly.
21 Q. All right. Now, if we look at the next page --
22 JUDGE PARKER: Can I inquire which?
23 MR. SAXON: Well, that may indicate, then, my poor understanding
24 of the English language.
25 Q. When you use the term "it was is the same height," this
1 check-point where you were at around 1430, it was at the same height as
2 the check-point at Radisani, can you be any more specific? What kind of
4 A. "Height" means if you have an east-western axis, it is around
5 roughly in this height like the other check-point on the other side was.
6 Q. That would be the height that would be marked on a topographic
8 A. Yes, on these east-western axis.
9 Q. Now, on the next page -- on the previous page, you made notes
10 about beating. And then on the next page, at the top, in the English
11 version, it says the following: "Superiors look away/on." And
12 then: "Some even fire at," and then below that: "Check-point, about 15
13 MUP reservists."
14 This phrase, "some even fire at," Mr. Hutsch, is that a correct
15 English translation of what you wrote in German?
16 A. No. I don't think so, because there were definitely no police
17 officer who was firing with a pistol or something on these people.
18 Q. The phrase that you wrote in German at this point, how would you
19 then translate it into English? What were the superiors doing?
20 A. They were -- they were motivating them.
21 Q. Okay. The superiors were motivating who? Who is "they"?
22 A. Their subordinates.
23 Q. Motivating them -- motivating the subordinates to do what?
24 A. To beat them.
25 Q. By "them," you mean the ethnic Albanians lying on the road?
1 A. Exactly.
2 Q. Below that, it says -- you have a quote: "You are terrorists.
3 No combat boots on feet. Men are taken away in police cars, buses,
4 direction Skopje. Fire in Ljuboten becoming silence. MUP back from
5 Ljuboten to Ljubanci." And then below that, it says: "Trucks, buses,
6 direction Ljuboten."
7 What does that last line mean, if you recall?
8 A. That means that when we left the curve going to the right we saw
9 in the picture, that means going to north in the direction of Ljuboten, we
10 saw that some police officers in Ljuboten entered trucks or small buses
11 and drove in direction of Ljubanci.
12 Q. All right. Now, this last note, then, was this the last thing
13 that you wrote in your notebook, then, in the Ljuboten area on the 12th of
14 August, 2001?
15 A. Yes, it was.
16 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, at this time, I would seek to tender what
17 has been marked as Exhibit P308.
18 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Mettraux.
19 MR. METTRAUX: Your Honour, we'll make a specific annotation for
20 the record to the effect that we will not formally object at this stage,
21 but we reserve our right to challenge the reliability and truthfulness of
22 that document.
23 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. It will be received.
24 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P308, Your Honours.
25 MR. SAXON:
1 Q. Mr. Hutsch, when you passed through that check-point and began to
2 move towards Ljuboten, were you driving fast?
3 A. No. We were driving very, very slowly.
4 Q. Why?
5 A. Because we were afraid that somebody might think we are coming in
6 a combat purpose.
7 Q. And so, again, driving slowly was sort of a safety mechanism?
8 A. Yes. That was also the reason why around 500 metres south of the
9 entrance of Ljuboten we left the car, the Macedonian interpreter and me,
10 and we started to go in front of the car.
11 Q. Walking?
12 A. Yeah, walking.
13 Q. Can you turn, please, to what is tab 21 in your binder, and this
14 item, again, comes from 65 ter number 176. It has ERN number N001-7284.
15 Mr. Hutsch, do you see this photograph in front of you?
16 A. Yes, I see.
17 Q. It says at the top: "PP7 - Sunday, 12 August 2001," and to the
18 right, "Afternoon." Did you make the annotations on this photograph?
19 A. Yes, I did.
20 Q. All right. Let's start, first of all, on the left side of the
21 photograph. And, again, perhaps with the usher's assistance, could you
22 take up the pen that's attached to the computer and indicate, either on
23 the photograph or above the photograph, where that check-point was that
24 you passed through a bit after 1430?
25 A. It's outside this picture in this direction. [Indicates]
1 Q. And to the left of that arrow, could you write the number "1,"
3 A. [Marks]
4 Q. So we see the number "1" in red ink in the upper left part of the
6 Now, we see a blue circle on the left-hand side of the photograph
7 with a smaller blue circle inside it, and then an object next to the blue
8 circle, the smaller blue circle, and then an arrow pointing to some
9 information. Can you explain what you were indicating there?
10 A. That means roughly behind -- north behind the cemetery, there was,
11 in my eyes, an assembly area where some police officers were waiting, and
12 there were also APC. I think, it's a BTR-80 was placed.
13 Q. How did you know that these persons were police officers?
14 A. They were wearing camouflaged uniforms with police badges.
15 Q. All right. Can we move -- and you saw this, according to the
16 annotation here, at around 1500 hours; is that right?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Moving toward the right, please, going in a westerly direction,
19 would it be fair to say, then, that you and your colleagues were moving
20 slowly up the road to the village of Ljuboten?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Towards the mosque?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Just to the left of what we see as the minarets of the mosque, we
25 see a red circle. Do you see that?
1 A. Yes, I see.
2 Q. All right. There's an arrow, a red arrow, pointing down, and then
3 we see the words: "Two dead men around 1530." Do you see that?
4 A. Yes, I see.
5 Q. What do you recall about these two dead men? Were they far apart
6 from each other, close to each other when you saw them?
7 A. They were close to each other on the street.
8 Q. And how were they dressed?
9 A. They were dressed in civilian clothes. As far as I remember, the
10 younger man was wearing a rust brown shirt and some jeans, without shoes.
11 The older man was wearing a black or a dark blue leather jacket and normal
12 dark trousers.
13 MR. SAXON: Your Honours, just so we don't -- I need to ask a
14 technical question.
15 If this image were marked for identification now and the
16 Prosecution then showed the witness another item, would we then be able to
17 come back to this image and continue to annotate it or would the image
18 then be frozen?
19 JUDGE PARKER: It would have to be dealt with separately on each
20 occasion as a separate exhibit, Mr. Saxon. Otherwise, we lose the
21 electronic image.
22 MR. SAXON: Well, then what I will try to do is forego further
23 annotations. And could this image, as it is marked right now, be marked
24 for identification?
25 JUDGE PARKER: It will be marked.
1 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P318, marked for identification, Your
3 MR. SAXON:
4 Q. If you could, Mr. Hutsch, to what is tab 26 in your binder, and
5 this is Prosecution Exhibit P00019.
6 MR. SAXON: Perhaps the photo could be enlarged just a bit. Thank
8 Q. Mr. Hutsch, do you see the photograph in front of you?
9 A. Yes, I see.
10 Q. You see a body lying off the road. Do you recognise that body?
11 A. That was the man I saw laying on the street, yes.
12 Q. Just to be clear, then, when you saw this body on the 12th of
13 August, it was laying in the street?
14 A. It was laying in the street.
15 MR. SAXON: All right. Could we ask the usher's assistance,
16 please, if you could take up the magic pen.
17 Q. Perhaps, Mr. Hutsch, if simply draw a simple stick figure to
18 indicate where in the street you saw this person lying on the 12th.
19 A. [Marks]
20 Q. Okay. Now, you also indicated, when you saw -- on this afternoon
21 of the 12th of August, you saw two bodies?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Can you indicate on this photograph -- first of all, the two
24 bodies, would it be possible to draw on this photograph to indicate where
25 the second body was?
1 A. Yeah, nearly; not completely, but nearly.
2 Q. Roughly, could you indicate with the -- let's go a little bit
3 slower. At the feet of this stick figure that you just drew indicating
4 where the first body was laying on the 12th of August, could you write the
5 number "1," please?
6 A. [Marks]
7 Q. Now, could you draw roughly where you saw the second body lying on
8 the road?
9 A. [Marks] So the head of this man was a little bit more there
10 [Indicates], to the outskirt of the blood.
11 Q. All right. Could you write the number "2" at what would be the
12 feet of that stick figure you just drew to indicate the second body?
13 A. [Marks]
14 Q. Now, on that afternoon of the 12th of August, when you an
15 approached these bodies, did you see anything else lying in the road?
16 A. There were rounds of Kalashnikov ammunition in the street.
17 Q. When you say "rounds of Kalashnikov ammunition," do you mean live
18 rounds or do you mean expended rounds?
19 A. Expended rounds.
20 Q. And so are you referring to what's called a shell casing?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. All right. Can you draw, please, roughly -- first of all, were
23 these shell casings, were they all at the very same time?
24 A. No. They were more like a half circle around these two bodies.
25 Q. Literally around these two bodies; is that what you mean?
1 A. Literal --
2 Q. You just said the shell casings were in a half circle around the
3 two bodies?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Were the shell casings right next to the bodies, or were they far
6 away? What distance was there?
7 A. I think between three metres and ten metres, all in all.
8 Q. Okay. Could you draw, then, an arrow with that pen, an arrow
9 going toward the left outside the photograph.
10 A. [Marks]
11 Q. And draw an arc, please, indicating if that's what it was, of
12 shell casings.
13 A. [Marks]
14 Q. And above the arc, could you write the number "3," please, to
15 indicate where --
16 A. [Marks]
17 Q. Could you erase that "3", please.
18 When I said "above the arc," I meant literally above it on the
19 left-hand margin of the page.
20 A. Here? [Indicates]
21 Q. No. I meant above the arc, not the arrow.
22 A. Oh, the arc, yeah. [Marks]
23 Q. So now we see a "3" to indicate this arc of expended shell
25 Now, you had started to draw an arrow off that line. Could you
1 extend that red line, please, towards the position of where the bodies
3 A. [Marks]
4 Q. And beneath that red line, could you write "3-10" to indicate
5 three to ten metres.
6 A. [Marks]
7 Q. At that time, when you approached these bodies, did you see any
8 shell casings closer to the bodies?
9 A. There were single shell cases closer. I think there is also one
10 that you can see in the blood here.
11 Q. I'm sorry. I don't know what you're indicating. Could you draw a
12 small circle around a shell casing that you see?
13 A. [Marks]
14 Q. All right. Could you write the letter "4" beneath that circle?
15 A. [Marks]
16 Q. Okay. And was there only one shell casing that you saw closer to
17 their bodies or were there more than one?
18 A. Really, I don't remember if there were some more.
19 MR. SAXON: Fine.
20 Your Honours, at this point I would seek to tender this item.
21 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
22 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P319, Your Honours.
23 MR. SAXON: And, Your Honours, just for clarification, since this
24 session began a bit after 11.00, can the Prosecution continue until around
25 a quarter to 1:00 or does the Chamber prefer to break sooner?
1 JUDGE PARKER: The difficulty is that the last session becomes
2 quite short. It's less strain on the witness and, for that matter,
3 everybody if we keep the periods a little more even. So we would
4 contemplate not long after half past, but at a time that, as usual, fits
5 in with what you were doing.
6 MR. SAXON: Thank you, Your Honour.
7 Q. If we could turn now to what is tab 27 in your binder, Mr. Hutsch,
8 and this is Prosecution number P00186.
9 Do you see this photograph, Mr. Hutsch?
10 A. Yes, I see.
11 Q. Do you recognise the person in this photograph?
12 A. Yes. That's the old man that was laying in the street on the
14 Q. On the 12th of August?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And if we can refer back to Exhibit -- what was received as
17 Exhibit P319, the previous photograph that you looked at, this would have
18 been Body number 2 in that photograph, right, the second stick figure?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Did you happen to see this same body a couple of days later on the
21 14th of August?
22 A. Yes. I saw this body on the 14th of August.
23 Q. And was this body at the same place where you saw it on the 12th
24 of August?
25 A. No. It was in the entrance of a house, of a farmhouse, south of
1 the place where I saw him on Sunday.
2 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, perhaps this would be a convenient time
3 to take the break.
4 JUDGE PARKER: Very well. We will adjourn now.
5 Could I indicate, Mr. Saxon, that in the last session, we will
6 need to conclude the evidence a little short of a quarter to 2:00, to
7 enable the submission which Mr. Apostolski wishes to make, to be heard.
8 MR. SAXON: Very well. Does that mean that the --
9 JUDGE PARKER: I would think about 1.40, ending evidence then.
10 MR. SAXON: Very well, Your Honour.
11 JUDGE PARKER: We'll resume at 1.00.
12 Sorry. Yes, Mr. Apostolski.
13 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Your Honour, could you allow me
14 20 minutes for my presentation? So if my learned colleague would be able
15 to finish at 1.30.
16 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Apostolski, if not today, tomorrow we will try
17 to fit you in for ten minutes, not 20. You'll have to look at it, again,
18 overnight and get it much shorter. It's merely a reply. Thank you.
19 --- Recess taken at 12.29 p.m.
20 --- On resuming at 1.00 p.m.
21 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Saxon, so that it is now clear, today you go
22 through to 1.45, no longer 1.40.
23 MR. SAXON: Thank you very much.
24 Can we have the Court Officer's assistance, please, by bringing
25 up, again, what has been marked for identification as Exhibit P318,
2 Q. This is at tab 21, again, of your binder, Mr. Hutsch, if you want
3 to look at the hard copy.
4 Mr. Hutsch, we return to this annotated panoramic photograph, and
5 you see, moving from the left side of the photograph towards the right,
6 toward the mosque, we see this red circle with an arrow pointing to two
7 dead men around 1530 hours. Do you see that?
8 A. I see it.
9 Q. And this reference, is that in relation to the two dead persons
10 that you saw before the break in the photographs?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And after you saw these two dead persons, did you continue to walk
13 through Ljuboten, going from east towards west?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. We see, then, on the other side of the mosque, we see a blue
16 circle and an arrow pointing up, and it says: "Police officers waiting
17 assembly," and this is at around 1545. Do you see that?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. So, first of all, how did you know that these persons waiting at
20 this spot at this time were police officers?
21 A. They were wearing camouflaged uniforms with police badges.
22 Q. And, approximately, how many police officers did you see in this
24 A. Probably ten.
25 Q. Can you describe their mood?
1 A. They were in a good mood. The first that what was astonishing me
2 is that they were really in a good discipline. If you compared the normal
3 mood with these reservist police officers or with police officers in
4 common, then most of them at the check-points, they were drinking beer,
5 they were in the afternoon very often drunken, and there were a lot of
6 danger coming out -- getting out from them. These officers, they didn't
7 do nothing in this -- in this kind.
8 Q. Mr. Hutsch, can I stop you. You said that this group of police
9 officers were in a good mood. How did you know at the time that this
10 group of police officers -- that these officers were in a good mood?
11 A. They showed us, for example, the victory sign, the victory sign.
13 Q. And if I can just interrupt, just for the record, the witness is
14 making a "V" signal with his two fingers. So the police officers showed
15 the "V" for victory sign with their hands. Was there anything else that
16 you noticed about them that indicated their mood?
17 A. Yeah. For example, they said, "Yea, we won against the
18 terrorists," something like that, shouted, and my interpreter translated.
19 Q. And you were still walking outside your vehicle at this time;
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. If we move further towards the west, that is, towards the center
23 of this photograph, we see a blue line with an arrow pointing down,
24 saying: "Around 1600, small groups of police officers (two to three)
25 walking towards the mosque." How did you know these persons were police
2 A. They were as well wearing camouflaged uniforms with -- with the
3 police badges.
4 Q. And then did you continue again moving from the east towards the
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. All right. We see now in the center of the photograph, we see a
8 blue circle and then an arrow pointing down, and it says: "Around 1615,
9 meeting with Johan Tarculovski." Do you see that?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. So let's just go a bit more slowly now. What did you do, what did
12 you see, at around 1615 that afternoon?
13 A. There were two white Cherokee police Jeeps coming from the western
14 part of Ljuboten at this T-junction there, and the windows of these cars
15 have been down. And so my interpreter just waved and, yeah, and then we
16 were asked what we are doing there.
17 Q. You say these were two white police Jeeps. How did you know they
18 were police Jeeps?
19 A. They had the blue lights on the top of their roof, the police "ZZ"
20 badges on the Jeep, and as well their license plates.
21 Q. You said that, "We were asked what we are doing there." Who asked
22 you that?
23 A. That was Mr. Tarculovski.
24 Q. And where was Mr. Tarculovski at the time?
25 A. He was sitting on the seat right to the driver.
1 Q. Is that what we call the passenger seat, the front passenger seat?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. How did you know that this person was Johan Tarculovski?
4 A. We met in -- I have to say we were introduced in the beginning, in
5 the first half of March, in Tetovo area by another police commander.
6 Q. I see. And let's go to that time in March, if you will. You said
7 you were in the Tetovo area. How is it that you happened to be introduced
8 to Mr. Tarculovski?
9 A. I don't know why he was there or what his function was, but it was
10 a -- it was nearly impossible for me to come close to the positions of the
11 police and especially to the special unit, police unit, the Tigers; and
12 then the hotel manager of the hotel I stayed in introduced me to Goran
13 Skladovski, who was, as far as I know, the commander of the Tigers. And
14 after we have had some coffees together, he promised to bring me close to
15 the position of the police units.
16 Q. And when this gentleman, Goran Slavkoski, made this offer to you,
17 what did you do after that?
18 A. He brought me in his vehicle, in his Jeep, to the -- to a position
19 in the, I would say, ethnical Macedonian quarter of Tetovo where the
20 police positions have been, and there I saw Mr. Tarculovski.
21 Q. Were you introduced to Mr. Tarculovski?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Can you recall at this time, in Tetovo in March of 2001, how
24 Mr. Tarculovski was dressed?
25 A. He was dressed in a police uniform, in a camouflaged police
2 Q. And did you have any discussions or do anything with
3 Mr. Tarculovski at that time?
4 A. It was just that he was -- or it seems to me that he was giving
5 the orders to the policemen and to the civilians who was fighting there
6 against NLA who was sitting on the Kale mountain.
7 Q. I don't know what you mean when you said the NLA was sitting on
8 the - I can't see the word - mountain. What do you mean by "the NLA was
9 sitting there"? Can you be more specific, please?
10 A. The NLA occupied the fortress over Tetovo, and that is called the
11 "Kale," K-a-l-e written.
12 Q. After that initial -- actually, let me go a bit more slowly,
13 please, Mr. Hutsch.
14 MR. SAXON: And if we could move away from what was marked for
15 identification as Exhibit 318 for a moment. I'll come back to it later.
16 Q. As a journalist, do you keep or maintain a database of your
18 A. Yes, I do.
19 MR. SAXON: Your Honours, at this time I'd like to make a brief
20 oral motion to the Chamber.
21 During the proofing sessions of this witness, this witness said he
22 could probably provide some more information that he had stored in his
23 records in Germany to the Office of the Prosecutor. Last weekend, when
24 the witness returned to Germany, he found some additional information and
25 he forwarded it to the Court Officer, and the Court Officer forwarded this
1 information to the Prosecution on Monday. The Prosecution has provided
2 copies of the original German version, as well as translation in English
3 and in Macedonian.
4 What this document is is a note from the records of this witness
5 relating to when he -- when the witness met Mr. Tarculovski. Obviously,
6 since the Prosecution only received this material on Monday, it is not on
7 the Prosecution's first amended exhibit list.
8 However, we make an application at this time for permission to add
9 it to the list. We can provide copies to the Chamber, so that I can
10 discuss this material with the witness.
11 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Mettraux.
12 MR. METTRAUX: Yes, Your Honour. Perhaps very briefly.
13 We received this document as well from the Prosecutor both in
14 English and in German. We won't take a position at this stage as to
15 whether it's proper for the Prosecution to add this document to its list.
16 We will keep our objection, if any, to the point where the Prosecution
17 will seek to tender it, if allowed to add it to the list.
18 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Apostolski.
19 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the Defence
20 counsel, Tarculovski, attitude is similar to what my learned friend
21 already presented, although we would like to see the whole notebook that
22 serves the purpose of information source that belongs to the witness, so
23 that we object just this exhibit to be tendered into evidence as a part of
24 his records of some kind, where one cannot clearly see where it originates
1 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
2 Mr. Mettraux.
3 MR. METTRAUX: Your Honour, I apologise, but following on the
4 comment of my colleague, Mr. Apostolski, I would like to indicate perhaps
5 for the Trial Chamber that we had, indeed, sought to obtain the notebooks
6 of Mr. Hutsch through the Prosecution and that the request was made to
7 that effect on our behalf, and that Mr. Hutsch refused to provide these
8 documents to us.
9 JUDGE PARKER: Anything further, Mr. Saxon?
10 MR. SAXON: No, Your Honour.
11 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
12 [Trial Chamber confers]
13 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Saxon, the Chamber is of the view that it
14 should not be at the moment added to your exhibit list, and so that it may
15 not be the subject of specific questioning. You certainly can continue to
16 question the witness about the event that may or may not be described in
17 this notebook, as you have been doing.
18 MR. SAXON: Very well, Your Honour.
19 Q. Mr. Hutsch, after your first contact with Johan Tarculovski in the
20 Tetovo area in March of 2001, did you see him after that?
21 A. I saw him a couple of times in the -- in the circle of the
22 President of Macedonia.
23 Q. That was Boris Trajkovski?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And do you recall ever seeing Mr. Tarculovski with anyone else?
1 A. No, not -- no, not with anybody else.
2 Q. Okay. If we can return now to the afternoon of the 12th of
3 August, when you saw Mr. Tarculovski inside this Jeep Cherokee, can you
4 recall how Mr. Tarculovski was dressed at that time?
5 A. He was wearing a black overall with police badges.
6 Q. Okay. And about how close were you to Mr. Tarculovski when you
7 saw him?
8 A. Probably one metre away from the door.
9 Q. Okay. Could you see whether Mr. Tarculovski was carrying a weapon
10 or not?
11 A. I think he was wearing a leg holster with a Glock pistol.
12 Q. A Glock is a brand name of a pistol, an automatic pistol?
13 A. It's the factory that produces in Austria.
14 Q. Can you recall what you observed, if anything, about
15 Mr. Tarculovski's mood at the time?
16 A. He was in a good mood, like, yeah, he won something in that the
17 skirmish in Ljuboten, so that he was professional, polite, in a good way.
18 Q. Do you recall anything that he said -- do you recall anything that
19 Mr. Tarculovski said at that time?
20 A. Just that what he told my interpreter, and, yeah, he told him that
21 they -- the terrorists now had gone from Ljuboten, that they were
22 defeated, and that everything is under control of the police now in
24 Q. Now, at that time Mr. Tarculovski was in a vehicle, in a Jeep;
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. How many other persons were in that Jeep?
3 A. There were two police officers.
4 Q. And was there just a single police Jeep on that road at that time?
5 A. No. There was a second one behind.
6 Q. And what observations, if any, did you make about
7 Mr. Tarculovski's relationship with the other persons in the vehicle or in
8 the other Jeep?
9 A. For me, it was clear that he was giving the orders.
10 Q. And, well, can you be a little bit more specific?
11 A. Yeah, for example --
12 Q. Just, Mr. Hutsch, remember we have to be concerned about the
13 interpreters, because they have the hardest job here, so we need to go
14 more slowly.
15 Why was it clear to you that Mr. Tarculovski was "giving the
16 orders," as you put it?
17 A. He told the driver to stop or to go, and, yeah, he also
18 afterwards, when he went in the direction of Ljuboten, he were giving also
19 orders to other policemen.
20 Q. And could you observe how the other policemen reacted to the
21 orders of Mr. Tarculovski?
22 A. They did what he said.
23 Q. Was there a person in the back seat of the Jeep where
24 Mr. Tarculovski was riding?
25 A. Yes. There was one person.
1 Q. Do you know what this person was doing, what role this person had?
2 A. So my conclusion, what I supposed what was the mission of this
3 person as well as the following crew in this second Jeep, was that they
4 were a kind of protection team.
5 Q. Protection team for whom?
6 A. For Mr. Tarculovski.
7 MR. SAXON: If I could ask the Court Officer's assistance, please,
8 to move back to what has been marked as identification as Exhibit P318.
9 Q. Mr. Hutsch, do you see the annotated photograph again in front of
10 you, please?
11 A. Yes, I see.
12 Q. And we see, to the right of the center, we see that blue circle
13 again and your notes around 1615: "Meeting with Johan Tarculovski."
14 After that meeting ended, did you continue to walk up the road towards the
16 A. Yes, I did.
17 Q. And can you tell us where the two police Jeeps went or in what
19 A. They went in -- they went in the direction of the mosque.
20 Q. So towards the east?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. All right. Moving further to the right on this photograph, we
23 see, above the -- first of all, we see a blue circle and an arrow pointing
24 up. It says: "Around 1630, temporary CP," or check-point, "we couldn't
25 pass. Police officers assembling and waiting."
1 So if I understand this circle and the notes that are on this
2 photograph, this blue circle towards the right-hand portion of it
3 represent the furthest westerly point that you and your colleagues reached
4 that afternoon. Is that correct?
5 A. That is correct.
6 Q. You noted here: "Police officers assembling." How did you know
7 the persons here were police officers?
8 A. They were wearing camouflaged uniforms as well as black overall
9 uniforms with police badges.
10 Q. And did you see anyone at this spot that you recognised?
11 A. Yes. I met another police officer who seems to me to be a
12 commander; and in this time, I just knew his pre-name [sic], and that was
14 Q. This gentleman who you knew by the name Goran, how did you know
15 who this person was and that his first name was Goran?
16 A. He was a member of the protection team of the Prime Minister of
17 Macedonia; and, in this function, I saw him several times, and it was told
18 to me by the Macedonian interpreter that his pre-name is Goran.
19 Q. When you say it was told to you by the Macedonian interpreter that
20 this gentleman's name was Goran, are you speaking about information you
21 received on the 12th of August or information you received when you saw
22 this person as a bodyguard of the Prime Minister?
23 A. When I saw him as a bodyguard of the Prime Minister.
24 Q. All right. Can you estimate how many times you had seen Goran in
25 his position as a bodyguard prior to the 12th of August, 2001?
1 A. Two or three times.
2 Q. Can you describe physically what Goran looked like at the time?
3 Is he a big man, small man, medium?
4 A. No. Medium man, very sportive man, a long face -- or a longer
5 face, very short hair.
6 Q. And do you recall, at this check-point on the 12th of August, what
7 language you spoke or you and your colleagues spoke to him in?
8 A. We spoke in a mixture of English and Macedonian with him.
9 Q. How was this gentleman who you knew to be named Goran dressed on
10 the 12th of August, when you saw him?
11 A. He was dressed with black overall with police badges.
12 Q. Did Goran have anything on his hands?
13 A. He was wearing black handcuffs, but he cut off his fingers.
14 Q. You use the term "handcuffs" --
15 A. Not handcuffs, gloves.
16 Q. Gloves with cut fingers?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Did he wear any kind of protection?
19 A. He was wearing a bulletproof vest.
20 Q. Can you recall if Goran was carrying any weapons that day?
21 A. As far as I saw, as well, he was wearing a leg holster with a
22 Glock inside.
23 Q. And what, if anything, did Goran -- the gentleman you knew as
24 Goran say to you and your colleagues when you saw him at the check-point?
25 A. He stopped us there and he told us that we not could go further
1 because the Minister was there, and it was impossible for us to go past
2 this point.
3 Q. And what observations did you make about the relationship between
4 this man named Goran and the other police officers who were around that
6 A. So he was giving the commands; for example, he told them to put
7 their equipment together, to look after their weapons, and, yeah, also
8 that they shouldn't hang around, that they were just in a disciplined way.
9 Q. And when you use the word "he," you're referring to this man you
10 knew as Goran?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And how did the other police officers respond to Goran's orders?
13 A. They paid a lot of respect to him, and they did what he said.
14 Q. Now, subsequently, after the events in Ljuboten on the 12th of
15 August, did you learn what the last name or the surname was of this man
16 named Goran?
17 A. Yes. Later on, I learned that his full name is Goran Stojkov.
18 Q. Can you recall what role you saw Goran Stojkov in after the events
19 in Ljuboten?
20 A. When I had to return to Macedonia as an officer in -- German Army
21 officer in the German embassy, he was the commander of the police unit or
22 paramilitary unit, the Lions.
23 Q. And did you ever see Mr. Stojkov, Goran Stojkov, and the Lions
25 A. Yes, I saw them in Skopje itself.
1 Q. What were they doing in Skopje or what was Mr. Stojkov doing when
2 you sam him?
3 A. He was just walking the streets in Skopje, because in October,
4 when the Lions were on the street in Skopje, they were doing a kind of
5 patrolling there in the streets in Skopje.
6 Q. And you saw Mr. Stojkov as well?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. After this discussion with the man who at that time you knew as
9 Goran, at this check-point at around 1630, you were told you couldn't go
10 through the check-point, what did you and your colleagues do then?
11 A. We decided to leave Ljuboten the way that we came in.
12 Q. So does that mean, then, you turned around and you followed the
13 same road back from west to east?
14 A. Exactly.
15 Q. And then where did you go?
16 A. So we went to the east to leave the village with the street that
17 is going to Skopje.
18 Q. And there is -- on the left-hand side of the photograph, there is
19 a small red circle; and underneath that, we see the annotation: "Seen one
20 dead man. People told us three dead men then around 1700."
21 Can you describe what you were referring to there, please?
22 A. We were stopped by an old Albanian man with his pre-name Qane, and
23 he stopped us there to bring us up because in that hill he said that there
24 were three dead men.
25 Q. And at that time and in that area, did you observe another dead
2 A. Yeah. From the house on, we saw one dead body with -- from the
3 point we were staying, from downstairs, that were laying in this hill.
4 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, at this time, I would seek to tender what
5 has been marked for identification Exhibit P318.
6 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
7 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P318.
8 MR. SAXON:
9 Q. And, Mr. Hutsch, if you could turn in your binder, please, to what
10 is tab 28.
11 MR. SAXON: And if we could actually see what should be the next
12 photograph in this series with ERN number N -- actually, I can be more
13 specific than that. Yes, this is Exhibit P203.
14 Q. Mr. Hutsch, do you recognise what you see in this photograph?
15 A. Yes. That's the body we saw. But when we saw him, he was laying
16 on his stomach.
17 Q. All right. And after you saw this body, did you leave Ljuboten?
18 A. Yes, we did.
19 Q. Before we leave these events, I want to go back to the period when
20 you were at the check-point with the gentleman who you knew as Goran late
21 that afternoon.
22 You mentioned that the gentleman who you knew as Goran was wearing
23 a bulletproof vest. Do you recall the colour of the vest?
24 A. His vest, it was more modern. I think it was a black one, while
25 his police officers were wearing blue bulletproof vests that were, I would
1 say, the first generation of bulletproof vests.
2 Q. So after you spoke with the gentleman who you identified as Qane,
3 and you saw the body that we see in Exhibit P203, you left Ljuboten. Did
4 you go to Skopje?
5 A. Yes. I went to Skopje.
6 Q. What did you do that evening?
7 A. The first what I did is I --
8 Q. No. Mr. Hutsch. Maybe -- I'm sorry. My question needs to be
9 more specific. Did you have dinner that evening?
10 A. Yes. I had dinner this evening.
11 Q. And where did you go?
12 A. I went to the Dal Met Fu. That is in the center of Skopje.
13 Q. Is that a restaurant?
14 A. That's a restaurant and a hotel.
15 Q. And when you entered that restaurant, did you see anyone who you
17 A. I saw the former Minister of Interior.
18 Q. And is that Ljube Boskoski?
19 A. Yes, it is.
20 Q. And was Ljube Boskoski alone in that restaurant or was he with
21 other people?
22 A. He was together with another man.
23 Q. And can you describe what the other gentleman looked like, if you
24 can recall?
25 A. He was a small man and, yeah, a very strong man with a round face.
1 Q. This gentleman who you saw with Mr. Boskoski, at that time, did
2 you know this gentleman's name?
3 A. No. I didn't his name.
4 Q. Subsequently, later on, did you learn this gentleman's name or
5 some other identity, nickname, or whatever?
6 A. In December 2006, I got an information in connection with another
7 man, that the nickname of this man is Bucuk.
8 Q. Okay. Very well. Around --
9 MR. METTRAUX: Your Honour, perhaps before we move on, will the
10 Prosecution ask the witness who this information came from?
11 MR. SAXON:
12 Q. Are you able to tell us or are you willing to tell the Chamber who
13 provided you with this information regarding the nickname Bucuk?
14 A. I'm not willing to give this name, but I can give the connection
15 in which this name played a role.
16 Q. Before you go on, I might leave it -- I might inquire with my
17 colleagues of the Defence, do my colleagues in the Defence wish me to
18 inquire further?
19 MR. METTRAUX: Well, Your Honour, I think quite frankly we're
20 going to ask a question to the witness about this, and the process should
21 be -- to the extent that the Prosecution intends to rely on any of that
22 evidence, Mr. Hutsch should be asked who that source is, the name of that
23 source, the position of that person, and any information that would allow
24 an identification of this person who allegedly gave him that information.
25 MR. SAXON: Then I'll take a minute or two, Your Honour, if I may.
1 Q. Mr. Hutsch, you mentioned that you could describe the
2 connection -- a connection in how you obtained this nickname. Can you
3 describe what you mean by that connection, please, or the context?
4 A. So I just received information that this man is linked to another
5 man who is probably the member of organised crime in Macedonia.
6 Q. Did you receive this information in your work as a journalist?
7 A. Yes, of course.
8 MR. SAXON: Your Honours, I see the time. Would this be the
9 appropriate time to stop?
10 JUDGE PARKER: Very well. We adjourn now until tomorrow at 9.00.
11 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.45 p.m.,
12 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 28th day of
13 June, 2007, at 9.00 a.m.