1 Thursday, 14 February 2008

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.12 a.m.

6 JUDGE PARKER: Good morning.

7 We apologise for the delay in commencing this morning. As you can

8 see, Judge Thelin [Realtime transcript read in error "Parker"] is not with

9 us. He is unwell, and in the end it just seemed that it was just not

10 practical for him to sit. So Judge Van den Wyngaert and I will sit under

11 the Rule.

12 May I remind you, sir, that your affirmation still applies.

13 Ms. Residovic.

14 WITNESS: PETRE STOJANOVSKI [Resumed]

15 [Witness answered through interpreter]

16 Re-examination by Ms. Residovic: [Continued]

17 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the usher provide the

18 witness with the set of documents that is numbered 1. It is the Defence

19 binder.

20 JUDGE PARKER: While that's happening, I hope the transcript is

21 not accurate, when it says in line 8 that Judge Parker is not with us.

22 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. Good morning, Mr. Stojanovski. Do you recall that the Prosecutor

24 on several occasions showed you Article 1 of the Law on Internal Affairs;

25 and, in that regard, he asked you a number of questions, and that was,

1 among others, on page 9246 of the transcript?

2 Do you remember that?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Could you tell me, Mr. Stojanovski, how many people are employed

5 in the Ministry of Interior?

6 A. About 12.000.

7 Q. All the employees of the Ministry of Interior, do they have their

8 own jobs and work?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. The jobs and tasks that they do, are they different types of jobs

11 or are they the same jobs?

12 A. No. They are different types of jobs.

13 Q. Their level of responsibility or the responsibility of the

14 employees, is it identical for all employees or are there different levels

15 of responsibility for the individual employees?

16 A. There are differences.

17 Q. Mr. Stojanovski, if we take into account all the jobs that these

18 12000 workers of the Ministry of Interior do, which jobs

19 are they?

20 A. I think that would be listed in Article 1.

21 Q. Now, let's take a look at tab 2 in that same binder.

22 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] It is P -- Exhibit P86.

23 Q. It is the Law on Internal Affairs, and I'd like to refer to

24 Article 1 that you looked at together with the Prosecutor during your

25 examination. Is that right?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. We don't have to read it again because you read it out with the

3 Prosecutor. So just tell me whether, in this Article, there is any

4 individual or organ -- or rather, does the Article stress any particular

5 individual to perform these functions stipulated here?

6 A. It just provides a general list.

7 Q. Tell me, please, Mr. Stojanovski, in view of your experience and

8 the tasks enumerated here whether it is at all possible for your

9 individual, regardless of which position that person occupies, can execute

10 all these tasks and bear responsibility for all of them?

11 A. I believe that this is impossible.

12 Q. Now, in this particular provision, Mr. Stojanovski, do you see

13 anywhere where it says that the director of the public security bureau

14 performs any functions?

15 A. I believe that we mentioned that these are competencies within the

16 ministry, not of persons.

17 Q. And since you said that the minister heads the ministry, does this

18 provision indicate which tasks and responsibilities the minister has?

19 A. No.

20 Q. I'm sure you recall, Mr. Stojanovski, that in answering a question

21 put to you by the Prosecutor on several occasions, you said that in

22 addition to this particular provision, it is necessary to look at other

23 rules of procedure, systemization, and so on and so forth; and you said

24 that on page 9246 and 47 of the transcript.

25 A. Yes, on several occasions.

1 Q. Tell me, Mr. Stojanovski, why did you insist on that, and why is

2 it necessary in addition to this provision and Article to look at other

3 by-laws and other rules governing systemization, and so on and so forth?

4 A. Things must be seen as a whole because the law gives the general

5 competencies, the categories of persons, and the organisational units

6 which carry out tasks. It lists the persons who carry out these tasks,

7 their responsibilities, and so forth.

8 Q. If we take a look at Article 12, for instance, you mentioned that

9 Article earlier on.

10 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] In English, it is on page 8965,

11 ERN number, it's on page 4.

12 Q. As you worked in the crime police, in order to know what the crime

13 police does of the work stipulated under Article 1, to what extent is it

14 necessary to take into account Article 12 of this law as well, and then,

15 also, the rules and regulations that you mentioned?

16 A. I believe that it is -- it is essential in order to establish

17 properly the competencies and responsibilities, so as to know who does

18 what, if I can say that.

19 Q. Thank you. Now, I'm sure you will recall that on a number of

20 occasions, you said that -- or rather, you were saying what an authorised

21 individual does and who these authorised individuals are, and you said

22 that very often it was necessary to refer to Article 24 governing the

23 Ministry of Interior. You said that on 9274 and 5 of the transcript.

24 Do you remember saying that?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. Let's take a look at that Article 24 which you pointed out to us.

2 And as you said, and I'm not contesting that at all, this Article

3 regulates who the authorised persons are. Is that right?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Now, can you read out what it says in paragraph 2, under point 1,

6 who the authorised officials are?

7 A. "Authorised official in connection to this law are considered:

8 Point 1, police and operative employees; 2..." --

9 Q. Just wait a moment, wait there a moment.

10 When it says "authorised officials," does that indicate who

11 conducts these operative affairs or does it just enumerate the persons

12 concerned?

13 A. It gives a category of persons.

14 Q. Now, when it says "police and operative employees," what do they

15 do? What level of affairs are they engaged in?

16 A. Those are persons who directly carry out operative tasks.

17 Q. Now read out point 2, please, of that same Article.

18 A. "Employees who carry out activities that are in direct connection

19 to police and operative activities."

20 Q. So is my understanding correct if I say this is a category of

21 employees in the ministry who have a connection to the operative employees

22 who are in charge of the operative side of affairs?

23 A. Yes. This would be, for example, crime technique, police

24 forensics.

25 Q. Now read out point 3, please.

1 A. "The minister, his deputy, supervisors of certain organisational

2 units."

3 Q. Now, in point 3 there, the people or persons enumerated there, are

4 they, in any way, or does that point, in any way, or indicate that these

5 are individuals who are engaged in operative affairs from point 1, or are

6 they linked to the operative affairs as stipulated in point 2?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Now, in connection with this Article, you always added and said

9 that we should see what each authorised official does according to the

10 rules governing systematization. So would you read the last paragraph of

11 Article 24 now.

12 A. "In the act for systemization of the posts within the ministry, the

13 posts with special responsibilities and authorisations are defined in the

14 sense of paragraph 2 of this Article."

15 Q. Mr. Stojanovski, this provision of Article 24, does it confirm

16 your testimony before this Court to the effect that an individual

17 provision, especially paragraph 1 or point 1, cannot be viewed without the

18 acts that you have just mentioned and read out from Article 24?

19 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Saxon.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I believe I said --

21 MR. SAXON: Well, the witness has answered, Your Honour.

22 JUDGE PARKER: He's commenced to answer, but I have interrupted

23 him. I interrupted him because the question has gone to the ultimate, in

24 asking a point of law of a factual witness, and I don't know what your

25 objection may have been.

1 MR. SAXON: My objection was essentially the same, Your Honour.

2 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

3 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I withdraw the question, Your

4 Honour. Thank you. The witness has testified about that several times

5 already, so there's no need for me to go into it.

6 JUDGE PARKER: Can I just make the comment, Ms. Residovic. We've

7 allowed you and, indeed, Mr. Saxon considerable liberty about evidence

8 about particular provisions of laws, but the basic rule is that the law is

9 for this Chamber not for witnesses to speak about, certainly not witnesses

10 who claim no particular expertise in law, and this last question was just

11 too far.

12 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes. Well, I understand what you

13 say, Your Honour, and that's why I retracted the question. But as this

14 witness was intensively questioned during cross-examination about the

15 different provisions, in my re-direct, Your Honour, I should like,

16 nevertheless, to deal with certain legal provisions but I will take care

17 not to go too far, as I have done on this occasion.

18 Thank you.

19 Q. Mr. Stojanovski, tell me, please, all these authorised officials

20 mentioned here, are they engaged in all the affairs, all the

21 authorisations as provided for by this law?

22 A. They are divided.

23 Q. Well, in that case, I'd like to you look at a document after tab

24 8.

25 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] It is Exhibit P96.

1 Q. It is the rules. Look at the Macedonian side, 0424625.

2 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] In the English version, it is -- I

3 don't seem to have the English version.

4 I apologise, Your Honour. Perhaps the witness isn't feeling well.

5 I seem to see him --

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm fine.

7 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. Mr. Stojanovski, the Prosecutor discussed something with you, and

9 you mentioned the provisions of Article 166 and 168.

10 Do you remember that?

11 A. Yes. I remember that we discussed this and that I did not succeed

12 to explain to him that he was implementing Articles for one situation,

13 while these Articles pertain to an altogether different situation.

14 Q. Do you remember, Mr. Stojanovski, that this Article 167 that was

15 mentioned, and when it was put to you, you said that they were quite

16 separate situations, and you said that you were duty-bound to inform the

17 legal organs only when asked by them to do so?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Now, based on your experience, Mr. Stojanovski, would the police

20 call the prosecutor or send him information if it heard rumours or

21 happened to read in the papers that a crime had allegedly been committed?

22 Would that merit it?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Would the police call the prosecutor or would write to the

25 prosecutor if, during the course of a decision, for instance, it had heard

1 that, allegedly, a crime had taken place?

2 A. No.

3 Q. As a policeman working for many years in the police force, how

4 many such rumours, information, and knowledge that -- does the police hear

5 about during a week or a certain period of time?

6 A. An enormous number.

7 Q. As the Prosecutor put it to you, if the police had to inform the

8 prosecutor every single time faced with situations like this, when you, in

9 fact, had no relevant information to prove that such an act had been

10 committed, how much information would the prosecutor have to receive?

11 A. He probably would not be able to enter his office in such a case.

12 Q. I'm sure you recall, Mr. Stojanovski, that you said that the

13 police first has to check out the rumours and to have sufficient grounds

14 to believe that an act -- a crime had, in fact, been committed and that an

15 act constituted a crime; and only once it has done that could it proceed

16 to inform the prosecutor?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. The Prosecutor - and this is on page 9251 of the transcript - read

19 out some Articles of the Criminal Code and the Rules of Service. Tell me,

20 based on your own experience, do the police undertake certain measures

21 provided for in these rules and regulations, so we don’t have to look at

22 them again now, before they check out any information about an event and

23 whether there are any grounds for suspicion, or is this done during

24 another period of time?

25 A. I saw the transcript in the English language. There is a condition,

1 if you will, in this regard, a benchmark, and that is that there should

2 be reasonable suspicions that a certain crime has been committed.

3 Q. Thank you. Now, with respect to Ljuboten, you said, and we saw a

4 document, that the prosecutor was informed about the death of Atulla

5 Qaili.

6 Do you remember that?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Also during the cross-examination, you said that you tried to

9 verify the information that was coming into you that certain individuals

10 were mistreated at check-points and in some police stations.

11 Do you remember answering questions about that?

12 A. Yes. I answered and I tried to do so on several occasions and in

13 several ways.

14 Q. Mr. Stojanovski, in the post you occupied in 2001 and 2002, after

15 all the efforts that were made, did you have evidence or information which

16 would constitute sufficient grounds to suspect that a policeman or the

17 police had, indeed, mistreated those civilians or the people that it took

18 into custody and brought into the police station?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Now, do you remember, Mr. Stojanovski, that the Prosecutor showed

21 you a piece of information about the measures that the police took after

22 the demonstrations in Skopje on the 9th of August, and which happened

23 after the events in Karpalak?

24 Now, do you remember that you looked at that document and

25 discussed it with the Prosecutor?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Do you also recall that on that occasion a part of a report was

3 shown to you, in which it said that after an interview with a suspect, it

4 was established that four more persons might have been the perpetrators of

5 crimes - that was on page 9269 of the transcript - and those other persons

6 were Brle, Cikoi, Marjan, and Igor.

7 Do you remember discussing the document?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Now, when asked by the Prosecutor, you agreed and said that in

10 addition to the information that you would receive from the injured party,

11 you could also receive information from witnesses and suspects, and you

12 said that on page 9270 of the transcript. Do you remember?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Now to go back to questions related to your efforts concerning the

15 events surrounding Ljuboten. Now information about this, if information

16 to the effect that persons were mistreated at check-points and police

17 stations, if they were truthful, if this information was truthful, then

18 who would be the suspects? Who would be suspected of having committed

19 those acts?

20 A. If I understand your question correctly, then it would be the

21 police.

22 Q. While checking out this information, did you at any point in time

23 ask the chief of OVR Cair whether the police of OVR Cair at the

24 check-points and in the police stations ever mistreated the people that

25 had been taken in?

1 A. Yes, personally.

2 Q. Did he ever tell you that the police mistreated anybody, had

3 mistreated anybody at any check-point or at any police station?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Did Mr. Krstevski ever tell you that he personally watched any

6 member of the reserve force in front of the police station at Cair abuse

7 any persons?

8 A. No.

9 Q. During your efforts to check out the information and the rumours

10 that reached you in various ways, to the effect that the police had

11 overstepped its authorisation in the police stations, did you at any point

12 in time discuss that with the police commanders, police chiefs of those

13 police stations?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Did any of those chief of -- chiefs of police confirm that

16 information and provide you with any relevant evidence to the effect that

17 a policeman, in a given police station, had, in fact, mistreated anyone,

18 people who had been brought into the police station?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Did any witness, a civilian, or anybody else who happened to be on

21 the spot at the time provide you with any information, any relevant

22 information, or any intimations from which you would be able to deduce in

23 a sufficiently reliable manner that sufficient and reasonable grounds

24 existed to suspect the police of having overstepped its authorisations?

25 A. No.

1 Q. Have you, Mr. Stojanovski, considering that several times you

2 stated that Ljube Krstevski was an experienced police officer, have you,

3 in 2001 or 2002, any reasons to believe that Ljube Krstevski was not

4 telling the truth about those facts?

5 A. There was no reason.

6 Q. Did you have any reason to mistrust any of the commanders of

7 police stations that you asked about those issues?

8 A. There was no reason for this.

9 Q. Did you find the data on ill-treatment or any other overstepping

10 of police powers in the documents that you yourself, as you stated, saw

11 several times, or you requested to see them?

12 A. There was no such data.

13 Q. Did you, through this information, Official Notes, information

14 notes, or orders related to the check-points, notice that it was an

15 unusual way of reporting, or was it the customary manner of reporting

16 pursuant to the rules of service?

17 A. Everything was usual.

18 Q. From the way in which the police stations reported and the OVR

19 reported, were you able to deduce that something was wrong?

20 A. I said that everything was being carried out in a usual fashion.

21 Q. Mr. Stojanovski, several times already you stated, and we also saw

22 documents to that effect, that the injured parties did not want to discuss

23 issues with the police.

24 You also stated that nobody reported any event, any case of

25 ill-treatment, that nobody informed you about the alleged ill-treatment,

1 neither the injured parties nor the court.

2 Do you remember having said that?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Mr. Stojanovski, if there was no complaint from an injured party

5 or anyone else who would have been aware of the unlawful conduct of the

6 police, and if the potential perpetrators did not admit it or they did not

7 indicate other potential perpetrators, if the alleged perpetrators hid

8 from you the facts or if they lied to you about those facts, if the

9 written documents did not indicate in any way that there was suspicion,

10 could you, as a police officer, have a substantial way of establishing the

11 facts corroborating the notion that the acts actually took place?

12 A. No.

13 Q. So, having that fact in mind, were you able to undertake any other

14 measures that were foreseen in those Articles that the Prosecutor showed

15 you, Article 140 and 142 from the Law on Criminal Procedure and the

16 Article 167 and 168 of the Rules on Performing Service in the Ministry of

17 Interior?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Mr. Stojanovski, you were also asked about Article 6 of the Law on

20 Internal Affairs. Do you remember that?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And if I remember well, you then stated that the minister is only

23 able to issue his orders from within the remit of his competences. Did I

24 understand that well?

25 A. Yes. This is what I said.

1 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters kindly ask the witness to pause

2 before answering to allow the translation to be completed.

3 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. I will kindly ask you to look again at the Article 6.

5 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters kindly ask the counsel to ask

6 the witness to pause because the witness is not wearing any headset.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On the screen --

8 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. [No interpretation]

10 A. I apologise.

11 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. The interpreters have asked us to ask you to pause before

13 answering the question because you are not wearing the headset. You do

14 understand me but you can't hear what the interpreters are saying.

15 Very well. You have the Article 6 in front of you.

16 A. My apologies. I don't see it.

17 Q. I apologise.

18 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] That is, again, Exhibit P86,

19 paragraph 6, N000-8963.

20 Q. We have Article 6 now. The law is in tab 2, so you can see it

21 also from the hard copy.

22 A. Yes, I see it.

23 Q. Mr. Stojanovski, does this Article speak about the duty of the

24 minister at all?

25 A. No.

1 Q. Is there anywhere in this Article where the powers, the

2 competences of the minister are prescribed?

3 A. No.

4 Q. In paragraph 2 of this Article, whose responsibility is

5 stipulated?

6 A. Of the employee in the ministry.

7 Q. Could you tell me, Mr. Stojanovski, who gives certain powers or

8 competences to the minister?

9 A. The law, the government, the president of the Republic.

10 Q. Thank you. Let's move on to something else now.

11 When asked by the Prosecutor, you stated that yourself and

12 Mr. Bliznakovski were standing in for the head of sector for internal

13 affairs, Skopje, Mr. Zoran Efremov.

14 Do you remember, Mr. Stojanovski, did Mr. Efremov perform his duty

15 in August 2001?

16 A. Yes, he was.

17 Q. The fact that you were standing in for him during a certain period

18 of time was clarified by you yesterday, but could you just say what was

19 that period of time?

20 A. I believe it was at the beginning of 2001.

21 Q. And, as far as I remember, you stated that he had been in a car

22 accident and he was then absent from work. That was the reason for you

23 standing in?

24 MR. SAXON: Your Honour.

25 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Saxon.

1 MR. SAXON: My learned colleague appears to be perhaps suggesting

2 a different response to the witness. He has answered the question. I

3 believe it was at the beginning of 2001.

4 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I believe, Your Honours, that I'm

5 not leading the witness and not suggesting.

6 At the end of yesterday's testimony, as far as I remember, but we

7 will also find it now, the witness stated that that was at the end of 2000

8 or the beginning of 2001, and he mentioned the traffic accident. So that

9 was on page 9335, line 9.

10 JUDGE PARKER: Ms. Residovic, please carry on.

11 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

12 Q. Do you remember, Mr. Stojanovski, that the Prosecutor asked you to

13 show the legal provision that prevented the minister or director from

14 performing a duty; for instance, from ordering someone to investigate a

15 crime?

16 Do you remember that?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. I know that you stated several times that you were not a lawyer;

19 but if you know, tell me, is the Law on Internal Affairs developed in a

20 way that it establishes prohibitions.

21 A. The purpose of the law is not to establish prohibitions. There

22 are other laws to that end. The goal is to regulate the competencies and

23 authorisations.

24 Q. Thank you. At one point in time, do you remember the Prosecutor

25 asked you whether the minister was the highest officer in the MOI, in the

1 Ministry of Interior.

2 Do you remember that?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Mr. Stojanovski, do you know whether the elected officials, that

5 would mean ministers, so your minister of the interior included, are they

6 employees of the Ministry of Interior, employees of the ministry at all?

7 A. They're not employed at the ministry, rather at the government.

8 Q. When asked by the Prosecutor, on page 9299, you answered:

9 "Yes. I remember that conversation. Still, I can't remember from

10 the list that you showed me, the one showing telephone conversations,

11 whether that was a telephone call that went through a cell phone or a

12 landline."

13 Please, let's clarify this situation a bit further. Tell me,

14 could you remember what was that conversation that you spoke about when

15 you answered the Prosecutor's question in this way.

16 A. About the conversation I had with Mr. Krstevski in regards to the

17 meeting with the army.

18 Q. Thank you. The Prosecutor also asked you about protecting the

19 reputation of the police, but I would -- I prefer to ask you about facts.

20 But this time I will ask you about your opinion. How do you -- as

21 an officer who performed high duties in the police, what is your opinion?

22 How could the reputation of the police be protected, safeguarded?

23 A. Above all, by lawful and professional performance of work tasks

24 and duties; and if there are violations, that they should be processed.

25 Q. When performing your duties, did you have another treatment of a

1 police officer who had perpetrated a crime when comparing to another

2 individual that had perpetrated a crime?

3 A. I believe the law does not provide us with such rights. The

4 person who infringed the law has to be held responsible, whether this be a

5 policeman or not.

6 Q. Mr. Stojanovski, you said that when you were not able to verify

7 certain information, the case could remain on stand-by in a police station

8 or you could continue verifying, checking up some facts, even though the

9 case is in the hands of the justice system bodies, although you don't have

10 the duty any longer to do so.

11 With regards to this case, Ljuboten, events in and around

12 Ljuboten, tell me, do you believe that you closed that case, or was the

13 case still open?

14 A. The case was not closed. I believe we mentioned, previously,

15 there were exhumations, autopsies which were important for continuing the

16 work on this case. However, we did not receive information or

17 instructions by the public prosecutor or investigating judge, nor any kind

18 of information.

19 Q. Thank you. And the final question, Mr. Stojanovski. At the

20 beginning of your testimony, you stated that you came to tell the truth

21 before this Court and that you knew what were the circumstances with

22 regards to the Prosecutor's attitude towards you in which you were coming

23 here.

24 Tell me, you testified for quite a long time now, so tell me, when

25 the Defence called you to testify, did you, at any moment, request any

1 protective measures to be able to tell the truth before this Court?

2 MR. SAXON: Your Honour.

3 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Saxon.

4 MR. SAXON: How does this question arise out of cross-examination?

5 JUDGE PARKER: Ms. Residovic.

6 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I believe, Your Honours, that it

7 does, because the questions I reacted at the end, if you remember, were

8 precisely questions that the Prosecutor asked, accusing the witness of

9 certain issues.

10 JUDGE PARKER: Please continue, Ms. Residovic.

11 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

12 Q. Tell me, Mr. Stojanovski, did you at any moment request that your

13 testimony is not transparent; actually, did you request any protective

14 measures to be able to tell the truth before this Court?

15 A. No.

16 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. Stojanovski.

17 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Your Honours.

18 I have concluded the examination of this witness.

19 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Ms. Residovic.

20 Mr. Stojanovski, that concludes the questioning for you in this

21 case. We thank you for coming to The Hague and your assistance, and you

22 will now be able to return to your ordinary activities. The court officer

23 will show you out.

24 Thank you.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I would like to express my

1 appreciation to the Court for the understanding it showed towards me, and

2 I apologise for disrupting the usual order and schedule of the Court.

3 [The witness withdrew]

4 JUDGE PARKER: The Chamber understands there is a procedural

5 matter which is to be raised now.

6 Ms. Residovic.

7 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the next witness

8 we're calling will be shown a significant number of documents. However,

9 one part of those documents that will be shown to the witness, eight

10 documents in total, are still not on our 65 ter list. You know that we

11 announced that.

12 Considering the fact that we found some new documents after the

13 submission of this list, we announced that we would ask that this list is

14 amended. The Prosecutor also disclosed some new documents to us, and we

15 will also ask that they are added to the list.

16 I will kindly ask you, Your Honours, to be permitted to have these

17 documents that are in the binders and that will be uploaded in the e-court

18 to have them shown to the witness in the course of cross-examination [as

19 interpreted].

20 The Prosecutor has already received all those documents.

21 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Saxon.

22 MR. SAXON: Just one point of clarification. If Ms. Residovic

23 could clarify whether the Prosecution has also received English

24 translations of each document or at least are available on e-court.

25 Is that the situation?

1 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes. The Prosecutor has received

2 those, both Macedonian version and the translation, and all those

3 documents are in the e-court.

4 MR. SAXON: The Prosecution has no objection, Your Honour.

5 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

6 Are you able to identify each document so that we know what we're

7 talking about, Ms. Residovic.

8 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours.

9 That is 65 ter 1D1266. That is a committee deciding in the second

10 instance on the -- upon the appeals against the decisions of the

11 disciplinary body or the ministry.

12 Then 65 ter 1D1267. That is rules of procedure before the second

13 instance disciplinary committee.

14 Then 65 ter 1D1268, which is the law on special rights of members

15 of the security forces of the Republic of Macedonia, dated 15th of January

16 2002, published in the Official Gazette.

17 Then 65 ter 1D1261 --

18 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: 1D1271.

19 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] That is a part of a disciplinary

20 file that we received from the Prosecutor on the person Enver Guri.

21 Then 65 ter 1D1272. Again, it's a part of that same disciplinary

22 file on the person Enver Guri. Again, 65 ter 1D1273 and 65 ter 1274 are

23 the same.

24 So these four documents are parts of one discipline case, which

25 pertained to this person, Enver Guri.

1 Finally, 65 ter 1275. That is decision of the committee in the

2 second instance.

3 So we kindly ask you to allow us to include this in our 65 ter

4 list dated 10 January 2008, and to allow us to be able to use them in the

5 examination of the witness.

6 [Trial Chamber confers]

7 JUDGE PARKER: Leave will be given to amend the Rule 65 ter

8 exhibit list to include those eight documents, Ms. Residovic.

9 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Your Honours.

10 JUDGE PARKER: We will now, I think, commence the next witness.

11 Further to the comments made by the Chamber earlier, and given the

12 nature that can be seen of some of the anticipated evidence of this next

13 witness, the Chamber would make it clear that the questions of the Law of

14 Macedonia will not be decided on the basis of evidence but on the

15 interpretation an application of the law.

16 Nevertheless, the Chamber will continue to allow some reasonable

17 freedom of question about the general understanding of the application of

18 the law.

19 [The witness entered court]

20 JUDGE PARKER: Good morning, Madam.

21 Would you please read aloud the affirmation on the card which is

22 given to you.

23 THE INTERPRETER: The witness's microphone is not on.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

25 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

1 WITNESS: VESNA DOREVSKA

2 [Witness answered through interpreter]

3 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. Please sit down.

4 Ms. Residovic.

5 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

6 Examination by Ms. Residovic:

7 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Ms. Dorevska.

8 A. Good morning.

9 Q. Ms. Dorevska, we've already met, but let me introduce myself

10 officially. My name is Edina Residovic and together with my colleague,

11 Guenael Mettraux, I am Defence counsel for Mr. Ljube Boskoski.

12 I'm now going to ask you to give us your full name, your first and

13 last name.

14 A. My name is Vesna Dorevska.

15 Q. Before I move on to my questions, Ms. Dorevska, I'd like to inform

16 you of something. You and I do not -- although we do not speak the same

17 language, we do understand each other. However, my questions and your

18 answers need to be interpreted for the Trial Chamber and everybody else in

19 the courtroom to understand them, to know what I'm asking you and what you

20 are answering.

21 That is why I would like to ask you to make pauses between my

22 questions and your answers to give the interpreters time to interpret.

23 Have you understood?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Thank you. Now, Ms. Dorevska, tell me where and when you were

1 born?

2 A. I was born on the 15th of March, 1965, in the city of Caplijna in

3 Bosnia and Herzegovina.

4 Q. Tell me, what education do you have?

5 A. I have university education.

6 Q. Can you tell me where and when you completed your schooling?

7 A. I graduated from the Faculty of Law at the Skopje University in

8 1989.

9 Q. Tell me when you started working and where.

10 A. I started working in the district trade court. I was their

11 volunteer for the duration of eight months; then, from the 10 of February

12 1992, as an apprentice within the sector of internal affairs.

13 Q. And what status did you have when you got your job?

14 A. At that time, my status was of an apprentice.

15 Q. And, after this period of apprenticeship, what work were you

16 engaged in?

17 A. After passing the apprentice exam in May 1992, I was given a

18 contract for an independent human resources officer in the organisation

19 and human resources department.

20 In 1995, I was promoted into a chief officer on employment within

21 the Ministry of Interior.

22 In 1997, I was promoted into a head of section in that same

23 department where I was working.

24 In 1999, that same contract was extended, head of a section, but

25 the status of the job was changed. That job became one with the status of

1 an authorised officer. And after passing the professional vocational

2 exam, I had again a contract for a section.

3 In the year 2000, I was promoted into a head of the department for

4 personnel affairs.

5 In November 2001, I received a contract to be acting head of the

6 department for personnel affairs.

7 In March 2002, assistant to the minister in the sector for legal

8 and personnel affairs.

9 Q. Ms. Dorevska, let's just clarify something. The last thing you

10 said.

11 You first said that you were appointed as a leader in the legal

12 and personnel department; and then, later on, in January, you were

13 assistant minister of the sector for legal and personnel affairs.

14 Are they different work posts?

15 A. No, not at all. That is the same post.

16 Q. Now, why were you given this appointment then, a different one?

17 A. Since at one point in time, the parliament of the Republic of

18 Macedonia, after passing the law on civil servants, imposed an obligation

19 for all managing posts in the state to have identical titles, to have the

20 title of a head. There was a decree defining that, and the ministry acted

21 upon that decree and changed the titles of the work posts.

22 So that post, during the time when I became the acting, the

23 provisional head, had the title of head of department for legal and

24 personnel affairs.

25 Q. Is that how everybody else in the ministry working in the separate

1 departments and on separate affairs, did they have to have the same

2 appointments for the same work posts with different names, different titles?

3 A. Of course. That is part of the work of the ministry, in case of

4 any amendments to the act for systemization. Regardless of whether the

5 working duties are the same, the officer needs to have a new appointment,

6 a new contract, if the job title changes.

7 Q. Since we're on the subject, this title, head or leader, which was

8 established on the basis of that law which was in force for a certain

9 time, does it remain in force? Is it still applied?

10 A. No. That title changed soon afterwards because the assessment was

11 that those titles were not of benefit for the Ministry of Interior because

12 the Law on Civil Servants, for the most part, does not apply to the

13 officers within the ministry.

14 And based on the assessment and consultations with the competent

15 services in the state, we decided to that it would be most appropriate to

16 restore the old titles that provide greater functionality to operation of

17 the ministry, and we did it again through the amending of the act of

18 systemization. The same applied to my job post. The old title was

19 restored, assistant to the minister.

20 Q. Very well. Now, as you said, that this applied to the other heads

21 of departments. In one of the departments, for example, of the Ministry

22 of Interior, what was the title before, what were the titles applied to

23 civil servants, and what is the law like today?

24 A. These posts used to have corresponding job titles – chief of

25 sector, chief of department of the interior. With the changes made, the

1 posts received the title of heads – head of department of the interior,

2 for example,- and then again the old titles were re-introduced - chief of

3 department of the interior or chief of sector – depending on the

4 organisational scheme in question. This means that several… that the

5 people who occupied those posts received several decisions referring to

6 one and the same post over a given period of time.

7 Q. I apologise, Ms. Dorevska, for interrupting your flow with these

8 explanations. You were talking about the tasks you were engaged in.

9 Tell me what your job is today?

10 A. Today, I still hold the same post, assistant to the minister in

11 the sector for legal and personnel affairs.

12 Q. And what the competencies and authorisations of your particular

13 sector? Can you explain that to us?

14 A. Of course. The sector primarily works in the area of regulations.

15 It drafts the laws, secondary legislation in the area of internal affairs.

16 It drafts acts on systemization an organisation. It works, and it did

17 especially during that time, in the area of employment relations and the

18 procedure from the moment of employment until the termination of the

19 employment for the employees.

20 Q. Can you tell us how your sector is organised in order to be able

21 to carry out all the duties that you have just enumerated?

22 A. There are two units: The unit for regulations and legal affairs

23 and the unit for personnel affairs.

24 Q. In addition to your regular education and the professional job --

25 your professional job, tell me, Ms. Dorevska, did you have, during your

1 work, any additional professional training or education?

2 A. Of course. Throughout that entire period of six, ten years of

3 effective work, I had continuous vocational training, seminars, additional

4 educations in the area where I work.

5 Q. Can you tell us some of them; although, there are many courses

6 that you seem to have attended?

7 A. Of course, most of them were in the area of human resources

8 management and in the area of drafting regulation; but, of course, there

9 were seminars and trainings related to management primarily. At any rate,

10 there were many such seminars.

11 Q. And where were those courses that you attended held mostly?

12 A. Most of them were held in the Republic of Macedonia. In the

13 recent years, such seminars are organised abroad, but most of them were in

14 our own state.

15 Q. And can you tell us who the organisers of those courses were or

16 seminars or vocational training that you attended?

17 A. Those trainings were organised by many national experts, but for

18 the most part foreign representatives participated; foreign experts for

19 the most part through Council of Europe, OSCE, European Commission. I

20 can't remember precisely all of them.

21 Q. Ms. Dorevska, we're now going to move on to another area.

22 In view of your job and the kind work you did, I am going to ask

23 you some questions with regard to the organisation and competences and the

24 remitt of the Ministry of Interior in 2001.

25 First, let me ask you this: Can you tell us which regulations

1 governed the competencies of the Ministry of Interior?

2 A. Of course. The competence of the Ministry of Interior is

3 regulated through several laws and regulations: First, the Law on

4 Organisation and Work of the State Administration Bodies; then the Law on

5 Government; the Law on Internal Affairs; secondary legislation enacted the

6 by the Ministry of the Interior; and, to an extent, also the Constitution

7 of the Republic of Macedonia also defines certain aspects relevant for

8 the functioning of the ministries.

9 Q. As far as I understood you, you said that those were some of the

10 laws. Now tell us how many laws in the Republic of Macedonia there are

11 which relate to or define the competence and authority of the Ministry of

12 Interior?

13 A. There are several such laws that regulate the area of internal

14 affairs; more than 20 laws at the moment.

15 Q. Can you quote some of them, if you remember?

16 A. Of course. Law on Security of Passenger Traffic, Law on Personal

17 Documents, Law on Citizenship, Law on ID, Law on Residence and Dwelling,

18 Law on Aliens, Law on Prevision of a State Border, Law on Weapons.

19 Q. At the end of your previous answer, you mentioned the constitution

20 as governing some of the competence and authority of the ministries.

21 Now, Ms. Dorevska, I don't expect you to be a constitutional law

22 expert. You are a lawyer nonetheless, and it is up to the Trial Chamber

23 to determine and decide on the points of law.

24 But could you, if you can, tell me what questions are contained in

25 the constitution of Macedonia which would be relevant for the work of the

1 Ministry of Interior?

2 A. The constitution, above all, defines state administration. It

3 speaks about bodies of the state administration, and the constitution

4 lists that the regulation of the area of state administration will be

5 regulated by special laws, systematic laws adopted with two thirds

6 majority of overall MPs.

7 Because the ministries, as part of the bodies of the state

8 administration, are, in fact, bodies of the state administration, the

9 constitution establishes that they're independent in carrying out their

10 tasks and that they carry them out in accordance with the constitution and

11 the laws.

12 Q. Thank you.

13 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Now, Your Honours, in connection

14 to that response, I would just like to indicate Exhibit P91 which is the

15 constitution of Republic of Macedonia, and Articles 88, 89, 92, 95, and

16 96.

17 Your Honours, I would now like to have the binders handed out, but

18 I'm looking at the clock and perhaps this would be a good time to take a

19 break, so that that could be done during the break.

20 JUDGE PARKER: Very well. We will have the first break now and

21 resume at 11.00.

22 --- Recess taken at 10.26 a.m.

23 --- On resuming at 11.02 a.m.

24 JUDGE PARKER: Ms. Residovic.

25 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

1 Q. Ms. Dorevska, a moment ago, you told us the basic provisions in

2 the constitution governing the work of the state authorities, including

3 the Ministry of Interior.

4 Now, tell me, whether in keeping with your knowledge of the

5 constitutional provisions, there are certain provisions which relate to

6 the ministers of the state administration and by the same token the

7 Ministry of Interior?

8 A. Of course, the ministers are part of the government elected by the

9 parliament. They're officials who have immunity and who for their work

10 are accountable before the government.

11 Q. Can you tell us whether it is stipulated how the ministers are

12 responsible to the bodies they're responsible to and to whom they are,

13 indeed, responsible?

14 A. The ministers are responsible before the government and the

15 parliament which elects them; and the government, if dissatisfied with the

16 work of the minister, can propose that that minister be dismissed from

17 that office. And, of course, there's another institute, the one of

18 impeachment, whereby -- which can be raised before the parliament, and

19 then the parliament can decide upon the accountability of that person.

20 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Now, with respect to that answer

21 given by the witness, I'd like to draw your attention to Article 89 and 82

22 [as interpreted] of the constitution of the Republic of Macedonia. 89 and

23 92 are the Articles.

24 Q. Would you please take a look at the document to be found after tab

25 2 in the binder.

1 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] It is Exhibit 551, P551;

2 N002-5314, ERN number; page 1.

3 Would you turn to the second page of that document; N002-5315 in

4 the Macedonian version is the ERN number.

5 Q. Ms. Dorevska, do you recognise the document?

6 A. Of course. This is the Law on the Government of the Republic of

7 Macedonia.

8 Q. Stipulating the laws that are of importance to the ministries and

9 minister, you mentioned the Law on Government of Macedonia as being one of

10 them.

11 Now tell us why you mentioned this law on the government and why

12 would that law be important for the position of the ministry or minister?

13 A. The Law on the Government is one of the important laws because it

14 regulates the competencies and the work of the government. However, in

15 the provisions, it also deals with the obligations of the minister; that

16 is to say, of all ministers, not only of the Minister of the Interior.

17 Q. Under whose competence and authority or whose competence and

18 authority is to see whether the laws are being implemented properly and

19 other regulations that they're enforced?

20 A. All minister is competent in his area to carry for the lawful

21 execution of all provisions which are relevant to the area which he leads.

22 The same applies to the Minister of the Interior.

23 Q. And in what way does the government execute its functions in

24 relation to the ministries?

25 A. The government is a collective body, and the government in effect

1 cares for the organisation of the work of all ministries. However, at the

2 same time, the government supervises the work of the ministries. At the

3 same time, as part of the government, there are a number of working

4 bodies, commissions of the second instance, which in a way control the

5 work or the decisions adopted by the ministries; for example, in my area,

6 this is the first instance commission deciding upon labour relations laws,

7 and there are several such commissions.

8 Q. Tell me, please, Ms. Dorevska, can government give guidelines and

9 instructions to a minister, what is the relationship, and how does the

10 minister act in respect of these guidelines and instructions?

11 A. Of course, the government can't [as interpreted] give proposals

12 and instructions for the work of the ministries and the minister through

13 conclusions of the government which are obligatory and must be

14 implemented.

15 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: In line 32:22, "can

16 give proposals."

17 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. A moment ago, you said that, in the government, the government has

19 various commissions. Now, what regulates this procedure; that is to say,

20 the manner in which the government relies its function as a collective

21 bodies, or rather, in what way do the ministers, as members of the

22 government, act within the government?

23 A. There are special rules for the work of the government which

24 elaborates the provisions and the manner of work in a more detailed manner

25 of all bodies which are formed within the government.

1 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] In relation to that answer by the

2 witness, I would like to point out Exhibit P551; Article 5, 9, 12, 13, and

3 Article 28 and 30 of the Law on Government; and Prosecution Exhibit P552,

4 which are the Rules of Procedure for the Government of Macedonia.

5 Q. I'd like now to ask you, Ms. Dorevska, to take a look at a

6 document to be found after tab 3, which is Exhibit P92.

7 Have you found the document? It's on your screen as well.

8 A. Yes. I see it in the binder and on the screen.

9 Q. Do you recognise the document?

10 A. Of course. This is the Law on the Organisational of Work of

11 Government Bodies.

12 Q. When you enumerated the basic laws governing the organisation and

13 competencies of the ministries, you mentioned this particular law as well.

14 Now, why is the Law on the Organisation of Work of Government

15 Bodies of importance to the work of the state organs and the Ministry of

16 Interior as well?

17 A. This Law on the Organisational and Work of Government Bodies, as I

18 already mentioned, is set also in the constitution of Macedonia. This is

19 a systematic law which regulates, as Article 1 stipulates, the

20 organisation, authority, and work of the government bodies. This is one

21 of the most important laws that determine the organisation of the

22 ministries and their competencies.

23 Q. To what extent is this law a systematic one or basic law, an

24 umbrella law, to be implemented by the ministries, including the Ministry

25 of Interior?

1 A. This is obligatory for all ministries, including the Ministry of

2 Interior.

3 Q. Among the basic laws, when you started your testimony, you said

4 that the law governing the work of the Ministry of Interior was one of

5 them. Now, what does that particular law regulate?

6 A. The Law on Internal Affairs is lex specialis pertaining, and

7 defining above all, the term "internal affairs," what the area of internal

8 affairs entails, the organisation of the ministry, and many other issues

9 which are related to internal affairs.

10 Q. You said that the Law on the Organisation and Work of the State

11 Administration Bodies are -- was a systematic law, a comprehensive one,

12 and that the Law on Internal Affairs, as you said, was a lex specialis, as

13 you put it; so a special law linked to the Ministry of Interior in other

14 words.

15 Tell me, please, Ms. Dorevska, in case the Law on the Ministry of

16 Interior is not dovetailed with certain provisions and not been harmonised

17 with certain provisions subsequently adopted on the law governing the

18 state administration, which law, to the best of your knowledge on the

19 application of laws in the Republic of Macedonia, would apply in such a

20 case?

21 A. In such a case, the -- the most recent law would be applied, the

22 law which defines organisation, and that would be the Law on Organisation

23 and Work of Government Bodies.

24 Q. So we've just been discussing a number of laws which you said were

25 basic laws as far as the organisation of the Ministry of Interior was

1 concerned.

2 Now, Ms. Dorevska, are these laws which were in force in 2001?

3 A. Yes. These were laws which were in force in 2001.

4 Q. In addition to the laws, the competence and organisation of the

5 ministry, is it prescribed and determined by any other binding acts as far

6 as the ministry is concerned?

7 A. Of course. The organisation of the ministry is regulated also

8 with by-laws and regulations. This is the Book of Rules on the

9 Organisation of the Ministry of Interior.

10 Q. I'd like to ask you, Ms. Dorevska, now to take a look at a

11 document found after tab 10.

12 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] It is Exhibit 1D107. The

13 Macedonian page is 1D4371, and the English page is 1D4392.

14 Q. Have you found that document?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Tell me, please, when you said a moment ago that this was a Book

17 of Rules governing the organisation and work, do you recognise this

18 document, the document before you, as being what you've just testified

19 about?

20 A. Yes. This is this document, the Book of Rules on the Organisation

21 and Work of the Ministry of Interior.

22 Q. If something is changed or amended in the structure of the

23 competence and authority, what happens then? What's the procedure?

24 A. If the organisation is changed in any of its parts, in any segment

25 of the ministry, then it is obligatory to make changes in this Book of

1 Rules as well.

2 Q. Which part of the ministry is in charge of preparing the drafts or

3 pre-drafts for the acts and documents and the amendments and addendums?

4 A. This is for legal and personnel affairs where I work.

5 Q. And who passes these general acts governing the ministries?

6 A. They are approved by the minister.

7 Q. When a general act has been passed and approved, can you tell me

8 in what way its amendments are incorporated into it?

9 A. Changes and amendments, if they're smaller in scope, are done in

10 the same way that the act is passed, with changes and amendments to the

11 act itself.

12 Q. Is there any other way in which this is done?

13 A. Of course. If we're dealing with larger changes to the act which

14 can bring about confusion about the manner of the changes, in order to

15 ensure clarity of the document, a new such document is passed. The same

16 act, but it is passed as a new document, as a new act.

17 Q. If for legal and technical reasons you decide to enact a new

18 document or act, what happens to the previous one, the old one?

19 A. In such a case, the old act is no longer in force, and this is

20 acknowledged in the new act, which is passed with the number of the act

21 which was previously passed.

22 Q. In a situation like that, Ms. Dorevska, does the act represent

23 just a new act, a new document, and the previous state of affairs is

24 changed or remains the same? For example, does the unit remain the same;

25 or a particular body, does it remain the same, or does something change

1 there, too, down the line?

2 A. Nothing changes in essence; only certain elements of the document,

3 of the act, which should make it better in the terms of its application.

4 Q. Thank you. Now let's take a look at the next document which

5 you'll find after tab 17.

6 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] It is Exhibit P75. Number 4249 --

7 4692, that's the Macedonian; and it's 42-4692; ERN 42-4695-ET is the

8 English version.

9 Q. Ms. Dorevska, you have before you a document of the Ministry of

10 Interior, dated the 26th of June, 2001.

11 Can you tell me what this is all about?

12 A. This is a decision for establishing a "posebna" police unit at

13 the Ministry of Internal Affairs.

14 Q. Would you take a look at the last page of that document now,

15 please.

16 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise for having to refer to

17 the translation, but it says here "for the formation of a special unit,"

18 and that's what the witness said: "special posebna."

19 We discussed this previously, Your Honours, just to avoid any

20 misunderstanding about what the witness is saying.

21 Q. Now, to make matters clearer, tell me, please, in 2000, what

22 special unit existed in the Ministry of Interior.

23 A. At that time, there was the Tigers special police unit.

24 Q. And does this document speak about that unit?

25 A. No. This is an altogether different unit. This is posebna unit

1 of the police, while the Tigers are a special unit of the police.

2 Q. Thank you. Now take a look at the provisions in Article 15 to be

3 found on page 424695.

4 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] And in the English, it is 4695-ET.

5 It's on page 4, or the end of this document.

6 Q. You can take a look at it in the document in front of you.

7 A. It's fine. I see it both in the hard copy and on the screen.

8 Q. It says here that: "With the coming into force of this decision,

9 the validity of the decision on establishing a "posebna" police unit for

10 performing specific tasks," and then the number, "dated the 2nd of June,

11 1993, ceases or is null and void."

12 Tell me, please, Ms. Dorevska, a moment ago, you explained to us

13 how a document is changed, is amended. Although this particular document

14 is called a decision to establish a posebna police unit, does it govern

15 the formation of the unit or does it apply to something else?

16 A. No. This decision does not mean or imply the establishment of the

17 posebna unit, because this was established a much -- a while back.

18 Article -- point 15, which provides the regulations of this

19 document, says that this is just a new decision that contains changes

20 within, and this is why it is adopted as a new act, at which point the

21 decision for such establishing in 1993 is no longer in effect, but it is

22 the same unit in question.

23 Q. Can you now, Ms. Dorevska, go back a tab. So after tab 16 is the

24 document that we'd like to look at next.

25 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] It is Exhibit 1D57. 1D2283 is the

1 page number in Macedonian, and 1D2285 is the English page number.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I see it.

3 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. This is also a decision on the formation of the posebna unit; and

5 a moment ago, you referred to Article 15 of the previous document where

6 you said that another decision, dated back to 2003 [as interpreted], was

7 null and void.

8 Tell me, please, what does this decision represent? What is that

9 about?

10 A. This is a decision by which, in 1993, a posebna unit of the police

11 to perform specific tasks was formed. This is a decision which became

12 null and void with the adoption of the decision we spoke of previously.

13 Q. Would you now take a look at page 2.

14 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] 2284 is the number, and 2286 for

15 the English.

16 Q. Take a look at paragraph 15, or point 15.

17 In paragraph 15, it says: "The entering into force of this

18 decision, the decision strictly confidential, the number," et cetera, "of

19 the 1st of March, 1991, is terminated."

20 Now, in view of this provision, and as you explained to us earlier

21 on, can you still us what type of decision this is? Although it says that

22 it's a decision to establish a posebna unit, what is the nature of this

23 decision?

24 A. This is an identical situation as the one we discussed previously,

25 which means that the unit existed with the decision of 1991. With the

1 decision of 1993, again organisational changes were made, most probably as

2 a result of which a new decision was adopted, and the one from 1991 was

3 terminated.

4 Q. Therefore, Ms. Dorevska, we have now seen two decisions; and as

5 you have explained it to us, they represent certain amendments. For some

6 legal and technical reasons, they were adopted as completely new

7 documents, new acts.

8 Now, tell me, was a posebna unit actually established based on

9 either one of these two decisions?

10 A. I presume that it was established with the decision of 1991, while

11 all other decisions are a continuation, normative continuation of this

12 unit.

13 Q. Thank you. I'd now like to ask to you take a look at a document

14 that you'll find after tab 15.

15 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] This is 1D66, page 1D2321; and in

16 the English, it is 1D2324 -- no, 2407. I apologise.

17 Q. A moment ago, Ms. Dorevska, you said that there were two ways in

18 which documents were amended, and we had the example of the situation when

19 a comprehensive document was being enacted, although, in fact, it was only

20 a case of changes being made to that document and additions added to it.

21 Now, tell us what this document that have you before you

22 represents?

23 A. This is an amendment to the Book of Rules for the Organisation and

24 Work of the Ministry of Interior. These are changes of existing Book of

25 Rules.

1 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Let's look at the next page -- or

2 rather, it's the first page of this document, 1D2322; and in English, it

3 is 2408.

4 Q. The document in front of you -- or rather, in what way does this

5 document change the general act?

6 A. By changing -- changes and amendments and by using new technical

7 rules in this area. In this case, it is a matter of a change in the Book

8 of Rules for the organisation.

9 Q. Now, at the top of that document, we see that the document comes

10 pursuant to Article 55, item 1, of the Law on Organisation and Work of the

11 Bodies of the State Administration, as it says at the top there.

12 Tell me, please, to whom does this Article, Article 55, refer to,

13 of the Law on Organisation for the State Administration?

14 A. The Article 55 pertains to all ministers, and it regulates

15 actually the acts that ministers could issue during their term of office.

16 Q. Let us now look at another document, and it comes after tab 3.

17 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] It is Exhibit P92.

18 Q. I'd like us to look at that Article, Article 55, which you've just

19 mentioned and explained to us.

20 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] It is to be found on 1905, that's

21 the Macedonian page; and the English page is page 15.

22 Q. In response to a question of mine earlier on, you said that the

23 ministers, based on this act, bring in certain acts.

24 Now, what ministers does Article 55 of this law refer to?

25 A. The Article 55 pertains to all ministers in the government.

1 Q. On the basis of this law, does it follow; and if so, which

2 competencies and authority, as far as the ministers are concerned and

3 including the minister of the interior?

4 A. During their work, the ministers have the duty to enact acts,

5 rules, instructions, plans, decisions, and other acts that are necessary

6 for them to perform their duty, or actually for the ministry that they had

7 to perform its duty, if they're authorised for it by the law.

8 Q. Among these numerous acts - most of them are general in narrate, I

9 assume - there are orders, too.

10 Now, can the ministers, and by the same token the Minister of the

11 Interior, issue orders; and if so, when can they do so?

12 A. Of course, the Article itself indicates the fact that the minister

13 can issue orders, but only when there is an express authorisation granted

14 by law or another regulation.

15 Q. Now, referring to the law governing the government, you said that

16 it could provide instructions or guidelines to the ministries.

17 Tell me now, please, in addition to the general provisions as to

18 what a minister can do as minister of one of the state administrative

19 bodies, as far as the minister is concerned, and including the Minister of

20 the Interior, are there other acts which determine his functions and

21 competence?

22 A. Naturally, there are other acts that are included in numerous

23 other laws governing the area that the minister is in charge of; and

24 whenever there are such authorisations, the minister does issue other acts

25 as well, because the minister represents the ministry, signs acts in

1 communication with other ministries.

2 Q. Now let's go back to the Law on the Ministry of Interior; and for

3 that, let us take a look at the document which is to be found after tab 5?

4 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] It is Exhibit P86. It is

5 N000-8981.

6 Q. Do you recognise this document, Ms. Dorevska?

7 A. Of course. That is the law that we work with every day.

8 Q. Tell me, please, was this law in force in 2001?

9 A. Yes, it was in force.

10 Q. At the time, were any of its provisions changed or amended to

11 include the provisions of -- according to the provisions of some other

12 law?

13 A. During the time when this law was in force, the Law on

14 Organisation and Operation of the Bodies of State Administration was

15 enacted in 2000, and it foresaw the organisation of the ministry in

16 another way. It foresaw two bodies within the ministry.

17 Q. Ms. Dorevska, let us look at Article 1 now of this Law on Internal

18 Affairs.

19 Tell me, what does Article 1 provide for?

20 A. The Article 1 of the Law on Internal Affairs regulates the

21 internal affairs, as the Article itself says: "Internal affairs, in the

22 sense of this law, are the," and then they are enumerated.

23 Q. Can you remember, Ms. Dorevska, how many employees did the

24 Ministry of Interior have at that time?

25 A. In 2000/2001, I believe there were slightly more than 9.000.

1 Q. And how many these days?

2 A. Today, it has some 12.000, or around some 12.000 officers.

3 Q. The people working in the Ministry of Interior -- or rather, who

4 is it who puts the provisions of Article 1 into practice?

5 A. This is put into practice by the ministry through its

6 organisational forms and through both bodies within it; that is, the

7 public security and the intelligence and counter-intelligence bureau --

8 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: Security and

9 counter-intelligence bureau.

10 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. What is the security -- the security and counter-intelligence

12 bureau, what is that, in the legal sense?

13 A. In the legal sense, these are bodies within the ministry.

14 Q. In 2001, for instance, which provision regulated the fact that the

15 Ministry of Interior should organise a public security and

16 counter-intelligence bureau and department for security and

17 counter-intelligence?

18 A. The Law on Organisation and Operation of the Bodies of Civil

19 Service of the year 2000, and later, in 2001, the Rule Book on

20 Organisation of the Ministry of Interior was amended.

21 Q. Can you now take a look at the next document to be found after

22 tab 3?

23 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] As we saw a moment ago, it is

24 Exhibit P92.

25 Q. It is the Law on the Organisation and Work of Government Bodies.

1 From the title itself, we can see that the law was passed on the 21st of

2 July, 2000.

3 Is that the same law that you talked about and that you said was

4 enacted in 2000?

5 A. Yes. That is the law, and that was the first time that the bureau

6 for public security was established as a body within or under the Ministry

7 of Interior.

8 Q. Let's take a look at Article 16 of that same law, which is to be

9 found on page 9493.

10 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] In the English, it is on page 4 of

11 that law.

12 Q. Tell me what this provision provides for in this system of laws

13 and the law governing the organisation of work of state administration and

14 its bodies?

15 A. This Article primarily regulates the competencies of the Ministry

16 of Interior and what they are; and in the second paragraph already, it

17 says that within the Ministry of Interior, there are the bureau for

18 security and counter-intelligence and the bureau of public security.

19 Q. Thank you. Tell me, these bodies within the ministry, in what way

20 are they performing the duties that they are established for?

21 A. They are independent in the performance of the duties, in the area

22 to cover which they're established, because they were established to cover

23 two specific areas. The one is public security and the other is state

24 security, and they're completely independent in the performance of their

25 tasks.

1 Q. Who heads those bodies within or under the Ministry of Interior?

2 A. The bodies within the Ministry of Interior are headed by

3 directors.

4 Q. And who appoints the director of the body within the Ministry of

5 Interior?

6 A. Upon a proposal of the Minister of the Interior, the director is

7 appointed by the government.

8 Q. And who dismisses the director of the body within the Ministry of

9 Interior?

10 A. Of course, the same principle applies: The body appointing is the

11 body dismissing. At any rate, the minister of internal affairs, if they

12 are not satisfied with the work of some of the directors, it could submit

13 a proposal to the government elaborating the reasons for the dismissal.

14 Q. Could you tell me to whom is this director accountable? The

15 director of the body within the ministry, to whom does he report?

16 A. The director is primarily accountable to the minister, because he

17 or she is part of the ministry, and is accountable to the government as

18 well because they are appointed by the government.

19 With regards to the bureau for security and counter-intelligence,

20 there is another aspect where the parliament exercises the control over

21 the work, which means that they are accountable to the parliament. There

22 is a special committee dealing with that within the parliament.

23 Q. So, when discussing these two bodies within the Ministry of the

24 Interior, if I understood you well, the directors are accountable to the

25 minister and to the government, bearing in mind that the director of state

1 security, or the UBK, is accountable also to the parliament.

2 Is that correct?

3 A. Yes, it is correct.

4 Q. Would you look now, please, at the document after tab 5.

5 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] That is Exhibit P86, and that is

6 the Law on Internal Affairs. N000-8984 is the page that I would like to

7 see. That is on the page 17. The English page is N000-8966.

8 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: "Article 17," instead

9 of "page 17."

10 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. The title of this paragraph is: "Provision over the work of the

12 directorate or bureau."

13 The Article 17 reads: "The parliament of the Republic of

14 Macedonia is supervising the work of the bureau through the respective

15 committee."

16 "The committee" as the Article 18 reads, "is submitting a report

17 to the parliament of the Republic of Macedonia about the -- about its work

18 at least once a year."

19 Tell me, when you were answering my question and you stated that

20 the directorate or the bureau for security and counter-intelligence is

21 accountable before the parliament as well, were you referring to these

22 provisions of the law?

23 A. Yes. It was exactly these provisions that I was referring at,

24 which indicate that the parliament exercises the supervision over the work

25 of directorate for security and counter-intelligence, and this is the way

1 in which also the director of the bureau has the duty to grant access and

2 to provide all the data from within his or her sphere of competence.

3 Q. Within this remit of responsibilities or accountability of the

4 director to the government and to the minister, could a director of a body

5 within the ministry be criminally liable? Could they be held criminally

6 responsible if they perpetrate a criminal offence?

7 A. Naturally, as any other citizen.

8 Q. And could a director of a body within a ministry be held

9 disciplinary responsible?

10 A. No disciplinary responsibility could be requested.

11 Q. Could you clarify this? Why can't the director be held

12 disciplinary reliable?

13 A. The director is, in a way, an employee of the Ministry of

14 Interior, but they are still an official appointed by the government; and

15 the disciplinary procedure does not apply to elected and appointed

16 official, primarily because disciplinary procedure means termination of

17 employment for a certain person.

18 The directors do not have their employment based in the same

19 manner as the other employees; rather, they are appointed by the

20 government, which means that the Minister of the Interior, and not only

21 the Ministry of Interior but other ministers and other directors of bodies

22 that exist, the minister could not impose such sanctions, termination of

23 employment.

24 Q. Ms. Dorevska, then, if the minister and the minister of the

25 interior by the same token would not be satisfied with the way in which

1 the director of the body within the ministry performs or enforces the law

2 in the area for which they are responsible, what could a minister do?

3 A. In that case, the director [as interpreted] could make a proposal

4 to the government for the dismissal of the director.

5 Q. I would like to ask you now to look again at the document in

6 tab 3. That is Law on Organisation and Work of the State Administration.

7 I would like to ask you to look together at the Article 50, paragraph 2.

8 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] That is N001-9505, the Macedonian

9 version; while the English version is on page 14.

10 Q. Can you find this Article?

11 A. Yes, it's fine. I see it.

12 Q. You have here the second paragraph of this Article 50, which

13 reads: "The director of the body within the structure of a ministry is

14 personally responsible for his work and for the work of the body that he

15 manages to the government and to the minister."

16 Is this, Ms. Dorevska, the provision that refers to the directors

17 of the bodies within the Ministry of Interior as well?

18 A. Yes. This provision applies to the directors of bodies within the

19 Ministry of Interior as well.

20 Q. And is this the provision that prescribes the way in which the

21 directors are responsible, as you testified already when answering my

22 previous questions?

23 A. I apologise. I did not understand your question well.

24 Q. Very well. Thank you. A moment ago, answering my question, you

25 stated that the director is responsible to the minister and the

1 government.

2 I'm asking you whether this provision that we just read out is the

3 provision that actually confirms your testimony; actually, where you

4 giving your testimony about that responsibility that was regulated with

5 the indicated provision.

6 A. Yes, this is the provision.

7 Q. I would kindly like to ask you now to look at the document in

8 tab -- after tab 5.

9 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] That is, again, Exhibit P86,

10 Article 14. That is N000-8984.

11 Q. This provision, as we can see, provides that the director is

12 independent in the performance of the work of the directorate and is

13 responsible to the minister and the government of the Republic of

14 Macedonia for their work.

15 Ms. Dorevska, is this, again, the provision you were relying upon

16 when you spoke about the way in which the directors of a bodies within the

17 ministry are performing their duties and tasks?

18 A. Yes, but please bear in mind that this provision refers to the

19 director of the bureau for security and counter-intelligence. At that

20 time, it was directorate for security and counter-intelligence, since that

21 body within the ministry was established before the bureau for public

22 security. So this is why the Law on Internal Affairs contains provision

23 that are specifically referring to the work of this director.

24 Q. When another body was established within the Ministry of Interior,

25 was the position of both of those bodies identical or were there any

1 difference with regards to the responsibilities within the ministry?

2 A. The responsibility was completely identical. There was no

3 difference, there is no difference between the responsibilities of both

4 those directs. They are both independent. They are both accountable

5 before the minister and before the government for their work.

6 Q. In addition to the law and the provisions that we just saw, tell

7 me, Ms. Dorevska, are there any other acts of the ministry providing the

8 competences of the bodies within the ministry specifying the competences

9 of the bureau for security and counter-intelligence and the bureau of

10 public security?

11 A. Of course, there are special regulations, secondary legislations,

12 that prescribe the operation of those bodies. That is the rule book on

13 performance of the works of the bureau of public security governing the

14 area of public security, and rule book for performing tasks in the area of

15 state security.

16 Q. I will kindly ask you now to look at the document in tab 9.

17 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] That is 65 ter 1D1200. That is

18 page 1D9674.

19 Q. Ms. Dorevska, tell me, at the bottom there of the page, we see

20 that the Minister of the Interior enacted the rule book for conducting the

21 work of the security and counter-intelligence directorate.

22 Are you familiar with this document, Ms. Dorevska?

23 A. Yes, I am familiar with it.

24 Q. Do you know when was this document enacted?

25 A. It was enacted in 1998 because that was the time when the bureau

1 existed as a separate body within the ministry.

2 Q. I will kindly ask you now to look at the document after tab 10.

3 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] That is Exhibit 1D107, and I would

4 like to look at the page 1D4372. The English page is 1D4393.

5 Q. You're familiar with this document, Ms. Dorevska?

6 A. Of course. This is the Book of Rules on the Organisation and Work

7 of the Ministry of Interior.

8 Q. When was the bureau for public security established, the one that

9 is mentioned in Article 2, paragraph 3?

10 A. The bureau exists as of 2000, when the Law on the Organisation and

11 Work of Government Bodies was adopted.

12 Q. And could you tell me from when was that Law on Organisation and

13 Work of Government Bodies in force?

14 A. It came into force immediately when it was published in the

15 Official Gazette. I cannot exactly remember the date in 2000. Probably,

16 it was the seventh or eighth month. It was July or August.

17 Q. Thank you. Considering that you stated a moment ago that this new

18 law being new and systematic organic law entered into force immediately,

19 tell me, are you aware that then the director of the other body within the

20 Ministry of Interior was appointed; and if you are, well, tell us, please,

21 who was it and when did this take place?

22 A. I believe that this was in August 2000. Then the first director

23 of the bureau for public security was appointed. This was Mr. Zvonko

24 Kasirski.

25 Q. And do you know who, Ms. Dorevska, who was the director for public

1 security bureau during the summer of 2001 and in 2002?

2 A. Of course, this was Mr. Goran Mitevski.

3 Q. And who elected Mr. Kasirski and Mr. Mitevski for the post of

4 director of the public security bureau within the Ministry of Interior?

5 A. The government of the Republic of Macedonia.

6 Q. Let's now take a look at the next document which is the one to be

7 found after tab 11?

8 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] It is Exhibit 1D105. 4261 of the

9 English -- of the Macedonian version, and 4475 of the English version.

10 Q. At the bottom of the Macedonian version, it says: "Resolution or

11 decision for the appointment of a director of the public security bureau."

12 So, tell me now, please, does this document show or confirm what

13 you said, that in the summer of 2001, the director of the public security

14 bureau was Goran Mitevski and that that appointment was made by the

15 government?

16 A. Yes. This document confirms that.

17 Q. Let's look at the next document after tab 12.

18 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] It is Exhibit 1D106 on page 2305

19 in Macedonian; and in English, 2306.

20 Q. Ms. Dorevska, would you now take a look at what it says there in

21 the document I've just mentioned; and in view of your position in 2001 and

22 2002, tell me whether this document reflects the position or post of the

23 director of the public safety bureau as it was in 2001 and 2002?

24 A. Yes, this is exactly so. This document reflects the position of

25 the director, to who appoints and dismisses him, and to whom he is

1 accountable for his work.

2 MS. ISSA: Your Honour. I didn't want to interrupt the response

3 of the witness, but I do note that this document appears to come from a --

4 the MOI web site. It is undated and it has absolutely no reference to any

5 particular law or regulation and, therefore, the reliability of the

6 document is in question.

7 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Ms. Issa.

8 Ms. Residovic, I think you should attempt to obtain some

9 verification, perhaps from the witness, of the authenticity of this

10 document.

11 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, that's why I asked

12 the witness. She deals in legal matters, so I wanted her to tell us

13 whether the contents of document corresponds to the position and post that

14 the director for public safety occupied in 2001 and 2002. The witness at

15 that time was the assistant to the ministry for legal affairs.

16 JUDGE PARKER: The problem which is raised in the objection is

17 that there is no apparent authenticity about this document.

18 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this document is one

19 of the exhibits. Now, in view of its authenticity -- or rather, you'll

20 decide what weight you're going to give to the document, because at this

21 point if time we can't provide any additional information.

22 JUDGE PARKER: Ms. Issa.

23 MS. ISSA: Your Honour, I don't believe that this document is an

24 exhibit. I think it's a 65 ter -- it's on the 65 ter list, but it has not

25 been admitted.

1 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] It's an exhibit, Your Honour.

2 JUDGE PARKER: Do you have the exhibit number, Ms. Residovic?

3 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] 1D106. It's from an official web

4 site. We explained that at the time when you admitted this document as an

5 exhibit. A number of Prosecution witnesses have commented on the document

6 when it was presented to them: Risto Galevski, some others; and perhaps

7 Jovanovski, I can't remember now.

8 JUDGE PARKER: Just a moment.

9 The witness, Ms. Residovic, may be able to confirm that this

10 document taken from a web site is, in fact, a correct production of the

11 position at the time and is a reliable document, and I think that will be

12 enough to overcome Ms. Issa's concern.

13 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

14 Q. Now, Ms. Dorevska, you've just heard the suggestion made by the

15 Presiding Judge. Tell me, please, can you tell the Court where this

16 document comes from?

17 A. This document is from the web page of the Ministry of Interior;

18 and, of course, it represents the position of the director at that period

19 of time.

20 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

21 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. I'd now like to ask you, once again, to go back to a document

23 we've already seen. It comes after tab 10.

24 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] It is Exhibit 1D107, the Book of

25 Rules on the Organisation and Work of the Ministry of Interior.

1 May we take a look at page 2 of this document. 4372 is the page

2 number in Macedonian, and 1D4393 of the English.

3 Q. Ms. Dorevska, in Article 2, paragraph 3, it also says that the

4 public security bureau, as a body under the ministry, is managed by a

5 director.

6 So does this provision also confirm what you testified about,

7 about the position of the director of the bodies within the framework of

8 the ministry?

9 A. Of course. This provision confirms what I already said about the

10 work of the director of the public security bureau.

11 Q. Can you tell me, in general terms, what this Book of Rules

12 determines?

13 A. This Book of Rules regulates the internal organisation of the

14 Ministry of Interior and the organisation of the bureau for public

15 security.

16 Q. At that time - and we're talking about 2001 - can you tell me what

17 bodies of the ministry were within the composition of the public security

18 bureau, public safety bureau?

19 A. These were the units of police, the unit of crime police, and

20 several independent organisational units which carried out professional

21 tasks for the unit of the police and the unit of the crime police.

22 Q. In explaining your answer to my question, when I asked you who

23 implemented the tasks of the interior as -- as stipulated in Article 1,

24 you said it was the different bodies and so on.

25 Now tell me, in that regard, looking at Article 1 of the law,

1 which duties were implemented by the public safety bureau as a body under

2 the ministry?

3 A. These were operative works, works which are as listed here, the

4 place to maintain public law and order, control road and traffic, crime

5 police. This includes the criminal procedure, prosecuting perpetrators of

6 crime, everything that includes operative tasks as part of the work of the

7 Ministry of Interior.

8 Q. In addition to the organisation of the bureau and the crime police

9 department and some other independent bodies that you mentioned, tell me

10 whether this Book of Rules regulates anything else, in connection to the

11 public safety bureau or any other independent body within the ministry?

12 A. In addition to the organisation relating to the bureau for public

13 safety, this Book of Rules also regulates or defines the existence of

14 other organisational units. These are units which carry out specialised

15 tasks for the needs of the bureau for public safety and for the bureau for

16 security and counter-intelligence which are functionally linked to the

17 Ministry of Interior.

18 Q. Would you now take a look at Article 7 of this Book of Rules which

19 is page 4377, and page 1D4399 of the English.

20 Ms. Dorevska, tell me, now, please, whether this Article

21 enumerates the organisational forms which you just mentioned and which

22 were performed -- and which performed professional work for the public

23 safety bureau and the security and counter-intelligence?

24 A. Yes. These are such organisational units.

25 Q. Now, the sector you worked in at the time and of which you are the

1 head today, what part of the organisational structure of the ministry does

2 that belong to?

3 A. The sector for legal and personnel affairs, then and now, is an

4 organisational unit which performs specialised -- specialised tasks for

5 both units and is linked to the minister.

6 Q. Ms. Dorevska, in view of your experience from that time and your

7 professional knowledge and involvement in affairs of this kind, tell me,

8 please, in 2001, and indeed in 2002, was there any kind of

9 decentralisation or regionalisation of the Ministry of Interior; and if

10 so, if it existed, what did it mean in terms of executing the tasks and

11 accountability and responsibility for executing those tasks?

12 A. Of course, at that period of time, there were regional police

13 services, regional organisational units, which are regulated by this Book

14 of Rules. Then there were 11 such organisational units, which were

15 established to carry out matters of internal affairs on the territory of

16 the Republic of Macedonia.

17 Q. Let's now take a look at Article 8 of this same document.

18 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] It is to be found on page 4379,

19 Article 8.

20 Q. It says here, in Article 8, that: "For conducting internal

21 affairs on the territory of the Republic of Macedonia, the following

22 regional organisational forms or units of ministry are established," and

23 we have 11 sectors listed as you've just told us.

24 Tell me now, please, bearing in mind Article 1 of the law that we

25 discussed at the beginning of your testimony, where are the affairs,

1 listed in that Article, carried out?

2 A. Works, as per Article 1, are conducted in specific organisational

3 units, including the sectors for internal affairs.

4 Q. In what way are these affairs executed within the sectors?

5 A. They have a certain independence in carrying out their work

6 obligations; but within each sector, there are a number of other

7 organisational units, the so-called units of internal affairs, in the

8 police stations, and through them the sector of internal affairs carries

9 out the affairs which are part of its competency on that given territory.

10 Q. Now, with respect to the operative execution of the affairs, in

11 what part of the ministry are the affairs conducted in the operative

12 sense?

13 A. They're operatively carried out as part of the bureau for public

14 security as part of the work of the crime police and the units for police,

15 and with -- as part of the work of the unit of internal affairs, OVRs.

16 Q. When it comes to implementing the tasks within the sectors, in

17 what way are these affairs conducted; that is to say, the internal

18 affairs? Is it the sector that puts them into practice or are there any

19 other bodies within the sector?

20 A. Of course, within the sectors, there are other organisational

21 units which are operative and which carry out matters related to internal

22 affairs.

23 Q. I'd now like to ask you to take a look at a diagram or schematic

24 attached to these rules?

25 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] And it's found on page 1D4390.

1 And in the English, it is 1D4414.

2 Q. In view of your testimony so far, does this diagram of the public

3 safety bureau reflect what you know about it, what you know about the

4 bodies that -- that made up the public safety bureau, and where internal

5 affairs were conducted in an independent and autonomous manner?

6 A. Yes. This is this scheme about which I was speaking about. These

7 are the organisational units.

8 Q. Can you tell me where in this diagram we see those organs, those

9 bodies?

10 A. I apologise, which bodies do you mean?

11 Q. The different parts making up the public safety bureau.

12 A. In the public safety bureau is the unit of the crime police and

13 the unit of police or department of police. Each of these units,

14 departments, have organisational units of, and in the middle are the

15 organisational units which carry out specialised tasks for these two

16 units.

17 Q. Very well. Thank you. Now, outside this black rectangle, which

18 is the public safety bureau with the department of crime police and the

19 department of the police and the various other subsections catering to

20 both these departments, we also see some separate organisational units.

21 Tell me now, please, what are these other boxes? What do they

22 represent, the other departments? It says special tasks unit, Tigers,

23 and then a set of boxes. Your department is listed there, too, for legal

24 affairs, sector for legal affairs. What is the basic task of these other

25 units.

1 A. These are specialised professional services which are functionally

2 linked to the Minister of the Interior. However, the work which they

3 carry out relates both to the bureau for public safety and for the bureau

4 of security and counter-intelligence.

5 This is my explanation also vis-a-vis the sector which I had. The

6 sector for legal and personnel affairs is a professional service located

7 in this part of the diagram but carries out professional services and

8 specialised services for the whole ministry and the two units that are

9 part of it.

10 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, is this a good time

11 to take the break?

12 JUDGE PARKER: Very well. We will have the --

13 Mr. Saxon.

14 MR. SAXON: I'm very, very sorry to interrupt, simply that I was

15 notified of a possible translation mistake; and before it escapes us, I

16 just wanted to bring it to everyone's attention.

17 At page 48, line 16 of the transcript, there's a sentence that

18 reads: "The director could make a proposal to the government for the

19 dismissal of the director."

20 And the Prosecution assumes that that's perhaps just a simple

21 translation error and the witness probably said "the minister could make a

22 proposal."

23 JUDGE PARKER: I'm sure that will be considered over the break by

24 Ms. Residovic; and if she has no difficulty, nothing more will be said

25 about it. But if there is a concern, it can be raised.

1 We will resume at 1.00.

2 --- Recess taken at 12.30 p.m.

3 --- On resuming at 1.00 p.m.

4 [Trial Chamber confers]

5 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Ms. Residovic.

6 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Your Honours.

7 Q. Ms. Dorevska, do you still have this diagram before you?

8 A. Yes, I have it in front of me.

9 Q. I will kindly ask to you turn to the following page.

10 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] That is 1D4391. The English page

11 is 1D4415.

12 Q. Answering my previous questions, you stated that on the territory

13 of the Republic of Macedonia, regional organisational units or forms were

14 organised to carry out the tasks within the area of internal affairs.

15 Tell me, when you look now at this diagram, does this diagram

16 corroborates your testimony about the regional organisational forms of the

17 Ministry of Interior?

18 A. Yes. This diagram confirms the organisation of regional

19 organisational units.

20 Q. If we look now at the first part of this diagram, where you read

21 "SVR Skopje," there are some five boxes below. What do they represent?

22 A. These are the five departments of internal affairs, organisational

23 units, part of the sector for internal affairs, Skopje.

24 Q. When you were speaking about the carrying out of the operative

25 tasks within the area of internal affairs, what were or what are the tasks

1 of bodies of internal affairs that are carried out within the departments

2 for internal affairs, OVRs?

3 A. Here, operative functions are carried out. This means tasks

4 related to the crime police and matters related to the police.

5 Q. Tell me, please, Ms. Dorevska, did this rule book, in any way,

6 deal with the issue of responsibility of officers of the Ministry of

7 Interior?

8 A. Of course, this Book of Rules contains provisions which relate to

9 the responsibility of the employees. Each employee is responsible for

10 carrying out the obligations charged to his post, or her post; and for his

11 work, he or she is accountable to his superior, direct superior.

12 Q. I will kindly ask you now to look again to page 1D4388 of this

13 same rule book, Articles 22 and 23.

14 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] 1D4411 is the version in English.

15 Q. And if we look at Article 22, it establishes, in the second

16 paragraph, that the officers are responsible to their immediate superior

17 and to the head of the organisational form to which they belong for the

18 correct or proper execution of their works and tasks.

19 Tell me, when you answered my question now about the

20 responsibility, does this Article correspond to your understanding of the

21 responsibility as it was established in the ministry in 2001?

22 A. Yes. This corresponds to what I already said about the

23 responsibility of the employees.

24 Q. You stated, previously, that if something would be changed in the

25 structure and in the position of a given part of the ministry, then that

1 rule book needs to be amended.

2 Tell me, does this same principle apply to this rule book?

3 A. Yes. The same principle applies to this Book of Rules as well,

4 because this is a by-law of the ministry and a regulation which is subject

5 to the same rules.

6 Q. Could you please now look at the document after tab 15.

7 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] That is Exhibit 1D66, 1D2321; and

8 the English version is 1D2407.

9 Q. Ms. Dorevska, this is the rule book that we reviewed earlier, as

10 well, when you were speaking about the principle, according to which the

11 acts enacted by the minister are amended.

12 I kindly ask you now to look at the following page in this rule

13 book. Let's see how is this implemented and in accordance with your

14 testimony; that is, it was necessary to amend the rule book if something

15 changes with regards to the structure and responsibilities of the body.

16 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] That is page 1D2322 and 1D4208.

17 Q. Considering the contents of this rule book, tell me, what has

18 changed with regards to the organisation of the Ministry of Internal

19 Affairs through this amendment here?

20 A. With these amendments to the Book of Rules, an organisational

21 change was introduced. One organisational unit, in this case the unit for

22 special tasks, Tigers, which previously was part of the organisational

23 forms directly and functionally linked to the minister and carried out

24 tasks both for the bureau and for the bureau for public safety and

25 counter-intelligence, is now changing its position and is being

1 transferred into the unit of the police of the section of the police as an

2 independent organisational unit.

3 Q. Could you kindly look now at the second page of this document.

4 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] This is 2409 in English, and

5 2285 -- 2323 in Macedonian.

6 Q. Here we have, again, a diagram, organisational diagram. Tell me,

7 is this change that we saw in the rule book reflected in this diagram as

8 well?

9 A. Yes. With the amendments to the Book of Rules and since the

10 diagram is part of the Book of Rules, this is also reflected in the

11 diagram, and we can see that the section for special tasks, Tigers, is

12 becoming an organisational unit section in the unit of the police.

13 Q. And who is now the superior the responsible officer for this unit.

14 A. In this case, the position changes. The unit is no longer

15 functionally linked to the minister, and the superior of the units for

16 special tasks, Tigers, in this case is the under-secretary of the section

17 of the police.

18 Q. Thank you. Let move on to another topic now.

19 Ms. Dorevska, are you familiar with the notion of "authorised

20 officer"?

21 A. Of course. I'm aware of this term.

22 Q. I will kindly ask to you now look at the document after tab 5,

23 and that is the Law on Internal Affairs.

24 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] That is Exhibit P86 and Article

25 24. It is on page N000-8986, and the English page is N000-8967.

1 Q. Tell me, Ms. Dorevska, is this the Article which is the legal

2 basis establishing who are authorised officers?

3 A. Yes. This is a legal provision which establishes and defines the

4 term "authorised person."

5 Q. Could you comment on this line 1 of the second paragraph, which

6 says that authorised officers, in terms of this law, are the employees of

7 the police and operative employees. Who are those officers indicated

8 here?

9 A. Authorised officers, in the context of this law, are considered

10 under point 1, police and operative employees. These are person who is

11 work in uniform; then operative employees, persons who work in the crime

12 police; then employees who carry out activities that are in direct

13 connection to police and operative activities.

14 These are the other organisational units, such as organisational

15 unit where I also work, because they are connected with the operative

16 employees and the minister, his deputy, supervisors of certain

17 organisational units, which, by force of law, are authorised officers.

18 Q. In this paragraph 3 that you just commented upon, the minister,

19 his deputy, can you see from that any link from the minister to the

20 operative employees, actually to the police that is the direct performer

21 of the tasks, as you stated? You, performing your duties, are also

22 linked, in a way, as it is stated in line 2.

23 So to put it briefly, does this provision indicate that there some

24 operative tasks of -- for persons indicated in line 3?

25 A. No, not at all. It does not point to an operative function.

1 Minister and his deputies are officials. They are not operative

2 employees.

3 Q. Tell me, with regards to the officers --

4 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: To the competencies

5 of authorised officers...

6 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. ... where are they regulated, and what are all provisions where

8 they are regulated?

9 A. These authorisations are regulated in by-laws. This is the Book

10 of Rules on Organisation and for Systematisation of Workplaces. The Book

11 of Rules on Organisation defines the organisational forms and the

12 operative functions which they carry out; while the Book of Rules on

13 Systemization of Work Posts lists exactly who -- which work posts or

14 employees carry out operative functions.

15 Q. In relation to what you stated, that the rule book on performing

16 of tasks is the act establishing the competencies of the authorised

17 officer, would you now please look at the document after tab 32.

18 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] That is Exhibit P96, and I would

19 kindly ask -- that is the rule book for performing of tasks of the

20 Ministry of Interior.

21 Let's look at the page R042 --

22 THE INTERPRETER: Could the counsel kindly repeat the number.

23 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] R042-4623-03.

24 Your Honours, I believe that we have already discussed this

25 document. We are awaiting for the revised translation of the entire

1 document. So the translation we have here is still a draft translation,

2 and we requested that it be amended. So we will receive the revised

3 document soon, the CLSS informed us.

4 Q. I will kindly ask you, Ms. Dorevska, to look at the contents. Let

5 look at the provisions number 2, application of special duties of

6 authorised officers.

7 It indicates here: Asking for ID; warning; summoning orders;

8 referral to investigating judge and holding persons until the judge

9 arrives; gathering of necessary information; detaining, bringing persons

10 in; deprival of liberty; escorting people; entry and search of homes and

11 other premises; search of persons; examination of vehicles, passengers,

12 luggage, facilities, and premises; application of special means and

13 methods in performing works; directing movements within a given area;

14 restricting movements within a given facility or space; raid; ambush;

15 roadblocks.

16 Ms. Dorevska, are these mainly the competences that an authorised

17 officer -- that an authorised officer could perform?

18 A. These are the authorisations which can be applied by authorised

19 officers if it is established in the act for the Book of Organisation,

20 that this is part of their work tasks.

21 Q. Actually, with regards to this, let me ask you another question.

22 Does every, any authorised officer perform all these competences

23 that we have just enumerated and others that are prescribed by this law?

24 A. No, not all authorised officers have all of these authorisations.

25 Authorised officers can have authorisations which are exclusively given to

1 them as a task, which means that this Book of Rules enumerates all such

2 authorisations. However, they can be separated between various

3 organisational units in the ministry which carry out operative functions.

4 Q. What is the delineation of this competences, what is the remit of

5 the competences that an authorised officer has?

6 A. This is regulated with the Book of Rules on Organisation which

7 defines the authorisations of concrete and specific organisational units

8 and, in particular, the Book of Rules on systemization of work posts.

9 Q. As an assistant to the minister for legal and personnel affairs,

10 are you an authorised officer?

11 A. Yes. I have the status of authorised officer.

12 Q. Could you search someone's residence?

13 A. Of course, that I could not do. So this is not part of my duties

14 which I carry out on a daily basis.

15 Q. In Article 24, we see that the minister is an authorised officer

16 as well. Ms. Dorevska, does it mean, pursuant to this regulation and in

17 accordance with the practice, that the minister can have the duties and

18 authorisation to perform every and any competences that we enumerated a

19 moment ago?

20 A. The minister does not have police authorisations at all. As I

21 said previously, he is an official, elected and appointed official,

22 which -- who does not have an operative function, which means that, by the

23 force of law, he has the status of an authorised official but he or she

24 cannot apply police authorisations.

25 Q. Reading the Article 55 from the Law on Organisation of State

1 Administration, the organic law, we saw that the ministers, so by that

2 token the Minister of the Interior as well, can issue orders.

3 Can the Minister of the Interior issue orders; and if they can do

4 so, when can they do so?

5 A. Of course. The Minister of the Interior, as well as other

6 ministers, can issue orders. However, this can be done by the minister

7 only when he is authorised to do so by law or by another regulation.

8 Q. If the minister has, as you stated, on the basis of law or another

9 regulation, authorisation to issue an order, how must that order be

10 treated by the employees in the ministry?

11 A. In this case, they're obliged to carry out the order of the

12 minister.

13 Q. I will kindly ask you now to look again at the document after tab

14 5, Exhibit P86. That is the Law on Internal Affairs, and let's look

15 immediately at Article 6 of this law.

16 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] N000-8963 is the English page,

17 while the Macedonian page is N000-8982.

18 Q. In the first paragraph of Article 6, it is stated: "The employees

19 of the ministry are performing their duties and tasks in accordance with

20 the rights, obligations, and authorisations determined by the law and

21 other regulations that are brought based on the law."

22 The second paragraph says: "An employee of the ministry must

23 enforce the orders of the minister or a person authorised by him given in

24 connection with the functioning of the ministry, except when the

25 performance of the orders represents a criminal offence."

1 Ms. Dorevska, answering my question, you stated that the employee

2 has the duty to enforce -- to follow the order of the minister. Were you

3 referring or is the basis for this testimony this provision from the law?

4 A. Yes. What I said is grounded in Article 6 on the law of internal

5 affairs which points to the duty of the employees in the ministry to carry

6 out the orders of the minister.

7 Q. Ms. Dorevska, this Article, does it regulate, in any way

8 whatsoever, the duties and authorities of the minister?

9 A. No. This Article does not speak at all about the duties and

10 authorisation of the minister. It speaks of the obligations, the duties

11 of the employees, in the case when a minister issues them a certain order.

12 Q. And when can the minister issue an order which an employee must

13 carry out?

14 A. Always when he is authorised by law or by another regulation to do

15 so.

16 Q. While we're discussing the minister, Ms. Dorevska, could you tell

17 me what responsibilities the minister has, in keeping with your knowledge

18 and the regulations of the Republic of Macedonia and in practical terms,

19 because you worked for many years in a department linked to the minister?

20 A. The minister is generally responsible for the laws and efficient

21 application of the work and implementation in the sphere for which he is

22 responsible; in case, the Minister of the Interior, he cares for efficient

23 implementation and enforcement of the laws and all other regulations which

24 are under the responsibility of the Ministry of Interior.

25 Q. Can you tell us, Ms. Dorevska, in what way does the minister head

1 the ministry or manage the ministry?

2 A. The minister manages, as is listed in the Book of Rules, by

3 holding collegia, which can be in a broader or a more narrow composition;

4 and in this way, he follows, so to say, the work, the situation, in the

5 ministry which he heads.

6 Q. In respect of the position of the minister within the ministry,

7 tell me, please, since you said that he was elected by parliament and

8 appointed in that way, is he accountable to parliament for his work?

9 A. Of course, the minister is accountable to the parliament for his

10 work.

11 Q. Earlier on, you said that the minister is bound by the provisions

12 of the law, stipulating his authorisations and, of course, government --

13 he is guided by government decisions and decisions made by parliament or

14 the "sobranje."

15 Now, tell me, apart from those acts, that is to say, the laws or

16 acts of organs to whom the minister is accountable and responsible, can

17 the minister set his own tasks and assign duties himself, duties that are

18 not specified by the law we mentioned and the provisions you talked to us

19 about earlier?

20 A. No. The minister cannot himself assign duties. His

21 authorisations are specifically listed in the legal -- in laws and in

22 by-laws.

23 Q. We've spoken about what the minister can do if a director fails to

24 carry out his duties within the department for which he has been elected,

25 one of the bodies of the ministry.

1 Now, can the minister take the place of a director and carry out

2 his functions and responsibilities?

3 A. Of course, he cannot do this. These are different work positions,

4 work posts.

5 Q. Can the minister, for instance, go on the ground, in the field,

6 in an operative department of the crime-investigation police and conduct

7 investigations or tell people how they should do their job when they are

8 performing their duties as prescribed by the law?

9 A. No. The minister does not have such authorisation, and he cannot

10 do this in such a way.

11 Q. To the best of your knowledge and your practical experience, if,

12 within the ministry, things are not going well, if the tasks are not

13 implemented properly, and if the organisation is not bearing fruit and

14 coming up with results, what can the minister do in cases like that?

15 A. He can undertake measures to submit a proposal if this pertains to

16 the failure to -- of directors to perform duties. We said that he can

17 submit a proposal forever their dismissal, he can change the organisation,

18 he can change the systemization, he can adopt decisions for redeployment

19 of people in various work posts.

20 Q. And all those things that you have just enumerated, are they based

21 on his own personal will or does he have the authorisation to do so under

22 the law and the legal provisions?

23 A. For all of these activities which I listed, they are

24 authorisations in the law and a procedure which -- by which all of this

25 can be done.

1 Q. Ms. Dorevska, do you know whether there are any legal provisions

2 which give the minister direct orders for him -- or rather, give him the

3 leeway to issue direct orders or take any other steps or measures if the

4 situation requires?

5 A. I'm not sure that I know such a provision. Perhaps, there is one

6 such provision in the 20-odd laws which I mentioned perhaps in terms of

7 road safety or something to that extent; but, specifically, I could not

8 say.

9 Q. Very well. Thank you. Now, when the minister has a certain duty

10 or authorisation under the law, prescribed by law, can the minister in

11 that case and in conformity with what you know about the law in Macedonia

12 and on the basis of your practical experience, can the minister convey his

13 authorisation to other persons?

14 A. Of course, he can. If he has the original authorisations, powers,

15 he could convey those to other persons.

16 Q. Please take a look at the next document. It comes after tab 13.

17 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] It is Exhibit 1D44. 1722 in the

18 Macedonian, and page 1723 in the English.

19 Q. We have before us a document which the commander of the special

20 unit, Tigers, Goran Zdravkovksi, sent the Minister of the Interior, and

21 the date is the 19th of July, 2001.

22 If we recall the diagram we were looking at a moment ago, this

23 special unit was linked to the minister, right? Is my understanding of

24 that correct?

25 A. Yes, it is correct.

1 Q. Now, it says here that, by an act of 1992, this special task unit

2 was directly commanded by the Minister of the Interior and that means that

3 the commander of the unit receives orders and tasks directly from the

4 minister. Because the minister has assigned certain authority to the head

5 of the department for police, the commander of the unit for special tasks

6 receives orders and tasks also from the head.

7 Tell me, please, Ms. Dorevska, does this document confirm

8 precisely what you said an amount ago, when you were saying that the

9 minister, when he has direct authorisation, can delegate that

10 authorisation to another person and, in this case, it was the head of the

11 police department that he was delegating that authorisation to?

12 A. Yes, it works like that. When the minister has authorisations

13 vested in him by some act, he could delegate those to another person; and

14 you can see from this document that this was done, that the authorisations

15 were delegated to the head of the police department.

16 Q. A moment ago, we saw some rules about amendments and supplements

17 to the work of the Ministry of Interior, dated August 2001, in which this

18 special task unit, Tiger, was transferred to the police department.

19 Now, tell me, at the point in time, when this unit was moved from

20 under the authorisation of the minister to the police department, did the

21 minister retain his authorisations to issue orders to the -- this

22 particular unit, the Tigers, or Tiger?

23 A. No. From the moment the act for systemization was amended, all

24 authorisations with regards to powers were transferred to the head of the

25 police department or the under-secretary in the police department, and the

1 minister is no longer functionally linked to the unit, Tigers, and could

2 not manage it.

3 Q. In that same diagram, the one we were looking at a moment ago,

4 where the special task unit, Tiger, from August 2001 moved to the police

5 department, who makes up the department, the police department?

6 A. The police department consists of several autonomous

7 organisational units.

8 Q. Are they the employees of the Ministry of Interior who perform

9 their duties in civilian clothes, are they plain clothes men, or is it

10 some other category of staff employed by the ministry?

11 A. Those are officers who perform their tasks while wearing uniforms.

12 Q. And, as you said, they come under the police department; they are

13 members of the police department, right?

14 A. Yes. They are within the police department.

15 Q. Now, when this special task unit, the Tiger, was transferred, and

16 I'm referring to the uniformed police as a whole, who has duties and

17 authorisations over that?

18 A. First, those who head the organisational form. In this case, this

19 is the Tiger commander; and, of course, the head of the police department.

20 Q. What about the minister? Does he have any authorisations or

21 duties or operational duties for him to be able to command the uniformed

22 police?

23 A. No. The minister does not have operative duties with regards to

24 command over the police.

25 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I'd like to move on

1 to another area. Now, do you want me to make use of the few remaining

2 minutes that we have, or could we perhaps adjourn?

3 JUDGE PARKER: I take it from your indication that it would be

4 more efficient if we pause now.

5 Very well. We will adjourn for the day and resume tomorrow at

6 9.00 in the morning.

7 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.42 p.m.,

8 to be reconvened on Friday, the 15th of

9 February, 2008, at 9.00 a.m.

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