1 Friday, 12 April 2002

2 [Open session]

3 --- Upon commencing at 2.30 p.m.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Call the case, please.

5 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. This is the case number,

6 IT-99-36-T, the Prosecutor versus Momir Talic and Brdjanin.

7 [The accused entered court]

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Good afternoon, everybody. I'm sorry we are

9 starting a little bit late. But I had my first mishap -- mishap on the

10 road today. So that's why I'm late.

11 Mr. Brdjanin, good afternoon to you. Can you hear me in a

12 language that you can understand?

13 THE ACCUSED BRDJANIN: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your

14 Honours. I can hear you and understand you.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. General Talic, good afternoon to you,

16 can you hear me in a language that you can understand?

17 THE ACCUSED TALIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours.

18 I can hear you and understand you.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Appearances for the Prosecution.

20 MR. KOUMJIAN: Nicholas Koumjian and Julian Nicholls with Denise

21 Gustin, case manager.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. And good AFTERNOON to you.

23 Appearance for Brdjanin.

24 MS. MAGLOV: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours. My

25 name is Milka Maglov. I am counsel for Mr. Brdjanin. Main counsel John

1 Ackerman and legal assistant Tania Radosavljevic.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Good afternoon to you.

3 Appearances for General Talic.

4 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your

5 Honours. My name is Natasha Fauveau-Ivanovic, and I represent General

6 Talic.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. Are you alone today?

8 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, I am all alone today.

9 And before starting -- before starting, I would like to inform the Chamber

10 -- I would like to inform about the interpretation problems that have

11 occurred yesterday. And I realised that -- by reading the transcript

12 yesterday that the errors that occurred were not minor and I really believe

13 that they deeply affected my cross-examination. The question I am referring to

14 is a vital question, the most important question of my entire cross-examination.

15 I asked it 3 times. Three times it contained the words

16 "the first time" and three times these same words were not translated.

17 I would ask to go into private session so that I can explain myself

18 properly and as I am referring to the cross-examination that was in

19 closed session,I prefer to do this in private session.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Private or closed?

21 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] I believe that private

22 session would be enough.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: So we'll go into private session.

24 [Private session]

25 (redacted)

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13 Pages 4197-4207 – redacted – private session

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

1 [redacted]

2 [Open session]

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Can I ask you to start again, Mr. Nicholls, please.

4 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you. I just want to respond about the what

5 Mr. Ackerman made yesterday about his offered stipulation. That

6 stipulation is very narrow and limited. And I'd like to read just part of

7 it to this Chamber. The stipulation states, in relation to the information

8 yesterday "we do not admit that the killings were done by Bosnian Serb

9 force -- I think that means forces -- or that the persons killed were

10 non-combatants. We only admit that the alleged killings in fact

11 occurred." So obviously those two issues, the status of the persons

12 committing the crime and the status of the victims is something that need

13 to be brought out. I think they're important to the Chamber. They go to

14 the elements of some of these offences. And there would have been no way

15 to go through those incidents without describing the setting and the scene

16 and what he saw, as the witness did.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Ackerman.

18 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, the --

19 JUDGE AGIUS: I haven't seen this document, obviously, but I take

20 Mr. Nicholls's word.

21 MR. ACKERMAN: I told you yesterday that I would bring them to

22 you. And I do so now.

23 I believe the document is, you know -- is what it says it is. In

24 every instance in the indictment, the Prosecutor contends that -- that

25 these killings were done by Serb forces. And that is a term that is --

1 that is very broad and inaccurate and does not serve to impose any

2 particular criminal liability on anyone, as far as I understand it. And

3 therefore, that's why I said that we're not admitting that these things

4 were done by Serb forces. They could very easily have been done by roving

5 bands of camouflage-clad criminals. And I think in many cases they in

6 fact were. I think in fact in the very case we're dealing with right now

7 they were. But in terms of the actual killing that took place, I have

8 admitted every one of them that's in the indictment, with the exception of

9 those that are listed in that letter. And I think it's not necessary to

10 go into the details of the killings and put the witnesses through that

11 part of it. I think the simple question that could be asked is -- I mean,

12 it's very clear in this particular case that there's no question. But

13 what the people involved were non-combatants. But in some of the

14 incidents, it's not quite that clear. So I think it serves to accomplish

15 what I intended to accomplish with it. And if it doesn't, I will

16 certainly consider making some changes. But I can't admit that these

17 things were all done by Serb forces, because I don't think they were.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. But there is a multiplicity of factors here.

19 One, you are also not admitting across the board that the persons killed

20 were non-combatants. And this is with reference to paragraph 38 of the

21 corrected version of the last indictment -- the last corrected version,

22 where there is a number of killings, as you know. And in each and every

23 case, you're not accepting that the persons killed were non-combatants.

24 You're not accepting that the killings were done by Bosnian Serb forces.

25 So basically what you're saying is bring the witness, just the same. Don't

1 tell him -- don't ask the witness to explain how the murder took place, to

2 avoid the trauma. And go straight to simple questions. One is: Do you

3 know who committed -- who did the killing? And secondly: Was or were the

4 persons killed combatants or non-combatants? And I think that's the most

5 unfair way to treat someone who's gone through God knows what, bringing

6 him here, and giving him the impression that we are ignoring all the rest

7 and paying attention only to two simple things: Who did it and who was

8 killed. I mean, he or she would go out of this courtroom saying, "They

9 brought me all the way from wherever to tell the whole story of how my

10 family was exterminated, and they never asked me a question about it."

11 I would suppose -- I mean, I am not going to go any further

12 today. But I am sure, Mr. Ackerman, you've lived enough trials in your

13 life to -- you're experienced enough to know what the victim or the

14 victim's family expect from a trial, which they don't always get because

15 sometimes they -- things are not exactly as they pretend. But -- yes,

16 tell me.

17 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, Your Honour, the way you have put it is a --

18 is an entirely different issue. And if in fact it is of some value,

19 cathartically or whatever to this person to actually describe the incident

20 in open court, then I wouldn't want to stand in the way of that. But if

21 it is traumatic and painful for the person to do that, I doubt that they

22 are going to complain that we didn't put them through that trauma and

23 pain.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Not after --

25 MR. ACKERMAN: And I would certainly be willing to leave it up to

1 the witness whether they want to go through that or not. All I'm trying

2 to do is put the witnesses in a position where if it's too painful and

3 traumatic for them to describe what happened -- and I'm trying to create a

4 situation where they don't have to. That's all I'm trying to do. There's

5 no lawyer tricks involved there. There's no strategy involve there or

6 anything.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: No one is attributing you --

8 MR. ACKERMAN: That's what I'm trying to do.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: We're not attributing to you any lawyer's trick or

10 so anything of the sort. That's not what we meant.

11 However, let's leave it at this. This is the position that you

12 take and we'll have to act accordingly.

13 Can we bring the witness in now?

14 MR. NICHOLLS: Yes, Your Honour. But we would need to go back

15 into private session and --

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. We'll go into private --

17 MR. NICHOLLS: And have some of the blinds brought down.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Private session. And put some of the blinds down,

19 please. And of course everyone is requested to observe the use of

20 pseudonym plus distortion.

21 MR. ACKERMAN: While we are waiting, I have a question --

22 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't think you need to put them all down?

23 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: All down?

25 THE REGISTRAR: Yes.

1 MR. ACKERMAN: I was reminded by the Registrar the other day, way

2 back when I was cross-examining Dr. Donia I had said I would be willing to

3 put a copy of the Berg and Shoup book into evidence as an exhibit. And I

4 had heard the Chamber say, "No, you don't need to do that," when I had

5 offered to --

6 JUDGE AGIUS: No. It wasn't like that. It was -- in a way, we

7 were pulling your leg, Mr. Ackerman. And in another way, we were being

8 very serious in case you meant it different. At the time, you suggested

9 giving a -- making available a copy to each and every one of us three up

10 here. And I said, "No, thank you. We don't need a copy each. If you

11 want to provide the Chamber with a copy, you can do that, but not us."

12 This is in case you were sort of -- but it was said to you in a light

13 manner which we thought you had taken.

14 MR. ACKERMAN: I think I did. But now my question is: Do you --

15 should I put it on the record or not? I'm perfectly happy to the that.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, of course. Of course. But it's --

17 MR. ACKERMAN: All right.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: You are handing these books to the Tribunal and not

19 to us.

20 MR. ACKERMAN: I understand that.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: And then we will, of course, make good use of that,

22 just as we make good use of your book sometimes.

23 Can we bring the witness in now? Usher?

24 MR. USHER: Yes.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: I know.

1 [The witness entered court]

2 [Trial Chamber and legal officer confer]

3 MR. NICHOLLS: Your Honour -- sorry, Your Honour, again if --

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Okay, Mr. Nicholls.

5 Now, let -- usher, let me explain to you how to go about it.

6 You are going to read that -- you are going -- you are going to

7 read that statement in English. It will be translated to the witness in

8 B/C/S. He will answer in B/C/S -- he will repeat the same words in

9 B/C/S. And that will be in -- translated into English to us. The problem

10 is he's got a problem which we have to solve that way.

11 So we are going to go about it like -- sir, could you look at me,

12 please. We are going to do exactly like we did yesterday. The

13 statement -- the solemn declaration to tell the truth is going to be read

14 out to you, translated to you. You repeat it like yesterday. And then

15 you can sit down and we can start again.

16 Madam Registrar, you may proceed.

17 THE REGISTRAR: Yes. I solemnly declare that I speak the --

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

19 the truth.

20 THE REGISTRAR: The whole truth.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The whole truth.

22 THE REGISTRAR: And nothing but the truth.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And nothing but the truth.

24 WITNESS: WITNESS BT12 [Resumed]

25 [Witness answered through interpreter]

1 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, sir. You may sit down.

2 Now, Mr. Nicholls is going -- Mr. Nicholls is going to continue

3 with his examination-in-chief.

4 Now, Mr. Nicholls, if there is anything that you think -- use your

5 best judgement now. If there is anything that you think we needn't ask

6 necessarily details about from the witness, you may tell me exactly what

7 you mean, which part of his statement, for example, and I can deal with it

8 myself as a Chamber. And that will facilitate things and the -- short of

9 objections from the Defence we can bypass any traumas that -- you have to

10 tell me, obviously.

11 MR. NICHOLLS: I understand, Your Honour.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: If you prefer it that way. If you prefer to put

13 questions, then go ahead.

14 MR. NICHOLLS: With the Court's permission, then, I may lead a

15 little bit through some of the areas which I don't believe are contested.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Please.

17 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you.

18 Examined by Mr. Nicholls: [Continued]

19 Q. Thank you, sir. Can you hear me all right?

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Page 4215 – redacted.

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Page 4216 – redacted.

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Page 4217 – redacted.

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Page 4218 – redacted.

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Page 4219 – redacted.

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Page 4220 – redacted.

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 Q. Now, I'm going to move ahead a little bit. Were you given any

21 notices -- did you receive any notices to attend later court hearings in

22 that case?

23 A. Yes, I did.

24 Q. Did you attend that later court hearing?

25 A. No. No, I didn't dare attend it. I didn't want to go. I had to

1 prepare myself, to prepare documents, and to prepare to move on.

2 Q. But just -- when you say you didn't dare to go, is that because,

3 just to be clear, you were afraid to go? Is that what you mean?

4 A. Yes, yes.

5 Q. Thank you. Now, you've gone into my -- I think the last area we

6 need to cover. You said you were preparing to leave. Can you briefly

7 describe to the Trial Chamber what you needed to do in order to be able to

8 leave Banja Luka, the Banja Luka area.

9 A. I had to get all the documents from the municipality, from the

10 company, from the post office that I had no debts. I had to sign also

11 documents that I'd give away everything and that I have no demands.

12 Q. And in obtaining these documents, were you required to pay any

13 fees?

14 A. Everywhere, everywhere. You could not do anything without money,

15 even in my company. When I get -- to get a certificate, I had to pay.

16 Q. And after -- were you able to obtain all this documentation that

17 you needed in order to be able to leave?

18 A. Yes. I was helped by some policemen I had to pay in order to get

19 somewhere, because there were so many people. There was a real crowd. So

20 that I could -- so that I would be able to pay.

21 Q. Now, how did you come to physically leave Banja Luka and leave the

22 country? Was it by foot, by car, by bus, by plane? How were you able to

23 leave?

24 A. There was -- there were three convoys, three buses. And there was

25 this main -- major -- or I don't know, actually, what his rank was. And

1 he had a car. And he was head of the buses. But first of all, we had to

2 pay. These hospitals. I had to pay 950 Deutschmarks. That's what I had

3 to pay to get on the bus for the two of us.

4 Q. And the two of us was you and your younger son.

5 A. Yes, that's right.

6 Q. Now, what was the ethnicity of the other people who were on this

7 bus convoy with you?

8 A. Muslims, Croats.

9 Q. All Muslims and Croats?

10 A. Yes. Perhaps there was a Serb who didn't want to go to their

11 army. But I didn't really notice.

12 Q. What of your property were you able to bring with you when you

13 finally left?

14 A. Just my clothes, what I had on me. The clothes I wore, that's

15 all.

16 Q. And have you heard what became of your home and your farm? Do you

17 know what happened to it, if anything?

18 A. Later, when I lived over there in the town, there were some

19 neighbours who came and told me, "There, your house is burning." And so

20 everything was destroyed, everything that's -- was round the house as

21 well.

22 Q. And did you hear whether any of the other homes in your small

23 hamlet were destroyed, or was it just your home?

24 A. Everything. All the hamlets that were Muslim. Everything was

25 destroyed. Nothing was left. Nothing was remained standing.

1 Q. Specifically in your hamlet, in the hamlet that was your home from

2 when you were born until --

3 A. And in other hamlets as well.

4 Q. So just to be clear- I'm sorry- are you saying that all of the

5 homes in your hamlet were burned down?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And what about the Serb family-owned homes in that hamlet?

8 A. Nothing. Normal. People went on living.

9 Q. And did you ever hear whether there was any investigation to try

10 to determine who had burned your home down?

11 A. No. I don't know anything about that.

12 MR. NICHOLLS: No further questions, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Nicholls.

14 Mr. Ackerman.

15 MR. ACKERMAN: I have no questions, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: And Madam Fauveau, I suppose you have a few

17 questions. So let me explain to the witness a little bit what's going to

18 happen so that I make things easy for him.

19 Now, sir, the Prosecution has finished with the series of

20 questions it wanted to put to you. The Defence team for the two accused

21 have a right to cross-examine you, to put questions to you as well. The

22 first team is choosing not to put any questions to you, the team for Mr.

23 Brdjanin. You are going to be asked a few questions by the Defence team

24 for General Talic.

25 Madam Fauveau.

1 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

2 Cross-examined by Ms. Fauveau-Ivanovic:

3 Q. [Interpretation] Sir, before I start the cross-examination, I

4 would like to express my sympathy for the tragedy that has occurred to

5 you, and I do apologise in advance for the questions that I am forced to

6 ask you.

7 A. Thank you.

8 Q. Yesterday you spoke about the way you were dismissed. You said

9 that all the Muslims and all the Croats who did not join the Serb army

10 were dismissed; is that correct?

11 A. That's correct.

12 Q. Did certain Muslims and certain Croats did join the army?

13 A. Yes, they did.

14 Q. Did these Croats and Muslims who joined the army, were these

15 persons dismissed as well?

16 A. No.

17 Q. You also said that there were some Serbs who did not join the

18 army; is that correct?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Those Serbs who did not join the army, were they dismissed?

21 A. I don't know whether they were dismissed. But I know those who

22 were at home around me in the neighbours. I don't know about the town.

23 But in the company, yes, those who did not join the army, or rather to the

24 reserves, they were all dismissed, yes.

25 Q. And you were dismissed in 1991; is that correct? It was in 1991.

1 A. Yes, at the end of 1991.

2 Q. At that time, there was no war in Bosnia; is that correct?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Those who joined the army were sent to Croatia; is that right?

5 A. Yes. That's correct.

6 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] I would like to ask some

7 questions regarding the villages. And I will have to mention the names of

8 the villages. And I don't know whether the Prosecutor would prefer us to

9 go into private session.

10 MR. NICHOLLS: Yes.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: So we'll go into private session, please, Madam

12 Registrar.

13 [Private session]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13 Pages 4227- – redacted – private session

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [Open session]

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Now, Mr. Koumjian, I am a little bit lost at this

17 stage, because in a way I have been told the next witness is Rule 92 bis.

18 I've also been told there is a witness in person who is going to give

19 evidence, and I have also been told that there is no statement available.

20 So tell me, Inneke.

21 [Trial Chamber and legal officer confer]

22 JUDGE AGIUS: The next witness is not a protected witness, is he?

23 MR. KOUMJIAN: No, he's not.

24 I was also going to ask Your Honours if I could raise just one

25 very brief matter and perhaps we could take the witness after the break.

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Perhaps?

2 MR. KOUMJIAN: Perhaps we could start with the witness after the

3 break. I have a very brief matter.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, certainly. Go ahead, Mr. Koumjian.

5 MR. KOUMJIAN: We received a communication from the attorney

6 representing -- I'm sure Your Honours and everyone remembers -- the

7 journalist who was summoned. And he has requested a hearing date on that

8 issue of May 10th -- excuse me -- yes, the 10th of May. So if it's

9 possible, that's Mr. Robertson has requested that date for the hearing.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Strike the name. We had greed not to mention --

11 MR. KOUMJIAN: That's not the journalist. That's the counsel.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: That's the counsel. Okay.

13 MR. KOUMJIAN: Counsel is not protected in this.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. They never will be.

15 And I know that Ms. Korner had asked me 7th and 9th -- 7th to 9th

16 of May for the witness 7.224. And then she had said 27th to 29th of May

17 for Witness 7.223. So provided there is a common understanding that if

18 we've not -- we are not -- what's the 10th of May? What day is that?

19 Can -- Friday, 10th of May. I'd say -- provisionally I'd say yes,

20 provisionally. But we'd have to reassess or assess the situation at the

21 beginning of that week, that is, on the 3rd or 4th of May. Is that

22 correct?

23 [Trial Chamber and legal officer confer]

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Oh, I see. I remember. Okay.

25 Yes, I suppose -- I suppose we can say yes for the time being, and

1 then we'll see what the situation will be like. Because we would be

2 resuming on the 7th after the Orthodox Easter break, and we will need to

3 take it -- take it up from there.

4 We have a witness coming on the 7th, and he or she is expected to

5 be here until the 9th, which would be fine to introduce the person you've

6 just mentioned on the 10th.

7 MR. KOUMJIAN: Fine. I don't think that the witness is planning

8 on being here that date, just counsel.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Exactly, counsel, actually, yes.

10 MR. KOUMJIAN: And I think he's also requested -- in his letter,

11 he did request be provided with copies of any transcript where the

12 application for the summons was discussed.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: I think, Mr. Koumjian, if we don't have a request

14 from him, if we have a request from you, if you're prepared to make such a

15 request, we will consider it and we will hand down a decision, after --

16 also after hearing what the Defence have to say, because this is an

17 attorney, an outsider, coming forward and saying, "I want a copy." If I

18 remember well, the transcript would be of a private sitting. I think we

19 went private on that occasion, if I remember well. I'm saying this

20 subject to correction, but I think I'm right.

21 Mr. Ackerman, do you recollect -- do you remember?

22 MR. ACKERMAN: I think we started in private session and then

23 decided we could go in public if we didn't mention the names. And then I

24 think I mentioned the name as soon as we went into public and got in

25 trouble for it. That's my recollection. If I'm thinking of the right

1 situation.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. You --

3 MR. ACKERMAN: So I think most of it is public.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. You are probably right.

5 But in any case, if it's public, I see no problem. I mean, you

6 can -- you can go ahead and hand him a transcript without the need for the

7 Chamber to be aware of that. If it was a private, I think we have to go

8 through a certain procedure.

9 I think we'll break now for half an hour, resuming at 4.45 with

10 this witness, who I understand initially the idea was to tender his

11 statement under Rule 92 bis was not accepted and now he's in person to

12 testify viva voce. 4.45. Okay.

13 --- Recess taken at 4.14 p.m.

14 --- On resuming at 4.51 p.m.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Please be seated.

16 Usher, can you bring the witness in, please.

17 MR. NICHOLLS: Your Honour, sorry, first, if I could raise a

18 preliminary matter relating to the last witness. And if I could request

19 to do that in private session.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. We'll go into private session again, please.

21 [Private session]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13 Page 4239 – redacted – private session

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13 Page 4240– redacted – private session

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [Open session]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, we are in open session now.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

7 Good afternoon, sir.

8 THE WITNESS: Good afternoon.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: You are going to be handed a document which contains

10 a solemn declaration to say the truth, the tell the truth. And you are

11 kindly asked to make that solemn declaration loud, please.

12 THE WITNESS: Okay. [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I

13 will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

14 WITNESS: IBRAHIM FAZLAGIC

15 [Witness answered through interpreter]

16 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. And you may sit down.

17 THE WITNESS: Thank you.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Now, just to make things easy for you, I'll just

19 give you a brief description of where you are. You are in one of the

20 courtrooms of the -- of this Tribunal to give evidence. That's why your

21 presence is required. And we are the three Judges that have been put in

22 charge of this case, and I am the Presiding Judge.

23 To your right, there is the team for the Prosecution. And the

24 lady who is standing will be the one to start putting questions to you.

25 When that is finished, which could be today or Monday- I don't know- you

1 will then be asked questions by the two teams for the Defence. The first

2 team is in the front row to your left, where that gentleman is. And

3 that's the Defence team for Mr. Brdjanin. Behind, in the back row, there

4 is a lady who is heading at the moment the Defence team for General Talic,

5 not the lady that you have looked at. It's behind the first row, it's the

6 back row.

7 The people -- persons in front of us are officials of the Registry

8 of this Tribunal.

9 So please go ahead.

10 MS. SUTHERLAND: Thank you, Your Honour

11 Examined by Ms. Sutherland:

12 Q. Sir, can you state your full name.

13 A. Ibrahim Fazlagic.

14 Q. You were born on the 6th of June, 1939 in Sarajevo?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. You're known by the nickname Baho?

17 A. Yes, I'm -- in fact, I'm better known as Baho.

18 Q. Your ethnicity is Bosniak?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Do you practice any religion?

21 A. No.

22 Q. You're married with two children?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Your family moved to Banja Luka in 1952, and you remained there

25 until you left in August of 1992; is that correct?

1 A. Correct. Yes.

2 Q. You attended university and graduated from there in 1962, having

3 studied geography and geology.

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And between 1962 and 1974, you worked in the field of education as

6 a teacher and an inspector.

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. From 1974 until 1981, you were a politician in the municipal

9 government; is that correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And from 1981, you worked... [Microphone not activated]

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Whose microphone is not activated.

13 MS. SUTHERLAND: Mine, Your Honour -- or not mine. Sorry, I'm not

14 getting interpretation.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Can you repeat the question, please.

16 MS. SUTHERLAND:

17 Q. In 1991, you worked as chef de cabinet for the municipal

18 government in Banja Luka; is that correct?

19 A. No. Up till 1981. From 1973.

20 Q. I'm sorry. In 1981, you then became the director of the Atlas

21 Tourist Agency.

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And that agency was based in Dubrovnik, but it had a branch office

24 in Banja Luka?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. Sir, in May of last year, did you give a statement to persons from

2 the Office of the Prosecutor?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And that statement was read back to you by an interpreter and you

5 signed that statement?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And then in September last year, persons from the Tribunal visited

8 you again and you signed a declaration in relation to that statement; is

9 that correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. When you arrived in The Hague, were you asked to review your

12 statement again?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Were you asked whether you wanted to clarify anything in your

15 statement?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. You told me upon reviewing your statement that you wished to

18 change something.

19 A. It concerned a date, a formal mistake, a more formal error.

20 Q. And what was that in relation to?

21 A. Instead of 1992, it should have been replaced with "1991."

22 Q. And was that in relation to one of the attachments to your

23 statement, attachment number 1?

24 A. No. No, not attachment number 1. I believe it was number -- it

25 was either number 11 or 12.

1 Q. Okay. I'll just give you a copy of your statement in your own

2 language.

3 MS. SUTHERLAND: Usher?

4 Q. If you can just turn to page 2 of the statement, which is also

5 page 2 in the English.

6 In relation to the paragraph numbered 1.

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. The letter --

9 A. Exactly. Exactly. Yes, it should be stated "1991."

10 Q. Thank you. Can you also look to paragraph number 13, which is in

11 the -- on page 3 of the English and also the B/C/S. In that paragraph, it

12 states that -- it talks about an interview that you had given a few days

13 after the article listed in point 11. Should that point 11 read "point

14 12"? So the article that's referred to is the one that's refer to in

15 article 12, directly above that?

16 Sir, are you reading paragraph 13? Paragraph numbered 13 --

17 A. Yes, yes.

18 Q. And it talks about an article listed in point 11. And I think you

19 wanted to tell the Court that you wanted to change that to "point 12,

20 above," which is the paragraph 12 directly above it.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Where you have "11," it should be "12," in other

22 words.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.

24 MS. SUTHERLAND:

25 Q. Were there any other changes that you wished to make in relation

1 to the statement that you have in front of you, in relation to any names?

2 A. I don't think so, except as far as when a military column

3 entered -- I mentioned General Milan Martic, and I didn't mention Ratko

4 Mladic.

5 Q. Sir, if you can just turn to page 7 of your statement, sir. And

6 it's on page 6 of the English. In the sentence starting "In the spring of

7 1992, I remember a victory celebration in Banja Luka held for Serb

8 soldiers."

9 A. [In English] Okay.

10 Q. Is that the paragraph that you're referring to where you mention

11 Ratko Mladic and in fact the person you are referring to is Milan Martic?

12 A. [Interpretation] Yes, yes. Milan Martic, Milan Martic. It refers

13 to him.

14 Q. Thank you very much, sir.

15 MS. SUTHERLAND: Can I have that folder back.

16 Q. Sir, returning to Atlas. During the time that you were the

17 director, what were your duties?

18 A. I was the director of the Atlas branch, Atlas Travel Agency

19 Dubrovnik, the branch in Banja Luka.

20 Q. During the time that you were the director, did you not look after

21 all the administrative duties and organise package tours for pleasure and

22 business?

23 A. Yes, my branch did. I personally not. But I was -- I gave

24 advice. But I had people who were specialised and who carried on this

25 business.

1 Q. And the Atlas agency sold train tickets, airline -- airplane

2 tickets, and bus tickets; is that correct?

3 A. That was a full agency with a full gamut of activities. For bus

4 tickets, airplane ticket, train tickets, sales of package tours,

5 organisation of excursions, organisation of celebrations, if need be, and

6 so on.

7 Q. And the company employed 11 staff members at the Banja Luka

8 branch.

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Could you tell what ethnicity these staff members were?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. I will -- with counsel's permission, can I lead the witness on

13 this?

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Please go ahead.

15 Yes, Mr. Ackerman.

16 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, it's not been established when she's

17 asking. I assume that changed, you know, week by week, or month by

18 month. I think the question must be when she's referring to.

19 MS. SUTHERLAND: I agree.

20 Q. When the company was still the Banja Luka branch of the Dubrovnik

21 office, and there was 11 people -- 11 persons employed, I want to deal

22 with that period of time. And I will take you through the staff members,

23 and you can tell me the ethnicity of those persons.

24 Nada Crljenica?

25 A. She was -- she's a Serb.

1 Q. Rada Dobra?

2 A. Serb.

3 Q. Tijana Crnic?

4 A. Serb.

5 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... Lukic?

6 A. Serb.

7 Q. Gordana Misiljovic?

8 A. Serb.

9 Q. Stanka Vukomanovic?

10 A. Serb.

11 Q. Jozo Kubat?

12 A. A Croat.

13 Q. Dragica Vrhovac?

14 A. A Croat.

15 Q. Nada Ojdenic [phoen]?

16 A. A Croat.

17 Q. Mirsada Gradjanin?

18 A. Bosniak.

19 Q. Thank you. In May or June, Atlas formally disbanded because of

20 the war in Croatia; is that correct?

21 A. No, not in May.

22 Q. When did Atlas with the office in Dubrovnik formally disband?

23 A. It disbanded. And Atlas Prima Tours was set up.

24 Q. If I can stop you there. Between August and the beginning of

25 December, did you take steps to set up a business that was registered in

1 Banja Luka?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And that company was called Atlas Prima Tours?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And did you continue to work in the same premises?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Where were the premises located?

8 A. The Veselina Maslese Road, number 1. At the corner of Veselina

9 Maslese and Fra Grga Martic Road.

10 Q. You held the position of director of Atlas Prima Tours until April

11 1992.

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. I'll go into some more details about your directorship later. I

14 want to ask you some questions now of a more general nature. Were you a

15 member of the Communist Party from 1957 until 1990?

16 A. And before that as well.

17 Q. I'm sorry.

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. When did you join the Communist Party?

20 A. 1957. I was just a secondary school student.

21 Q. So what year did you join the -- become a member of the Communist

22 Party?

23 JUDGE AGIUS: He just said it. 1957 -- yes. Yes.

24 MS. SUTHERLAND:

25 Q. I'm sorry. My question before was: Were you a member of the

1 Communist Party from 1957 until 1990. And the witness answered "And

2 before that as well."

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.

4 MS. SUTHERLAND:

5 Q. Did you attend any political rallies in 1991?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Do you recall when the rally was held that you attended?

8 A. Well, it was in the autumn of 1991 probably.

9 Q. And where was the rally held?

10 A. On the large square in front of the Boska department store. At

11 the time it was called the Edvarda Kardelj square.

12 Q. Approximately how many people were in attendance?

13 A. According to my estimate, somewhere between 30 and 40 thousand

14 people.

15 Q. And which party was this rally for?

16 A. It was the SDS.

17 Q. Do you recall now any of the persons that attended the rally?

18 Sorry --

19 A. Of course.

20 Q. Can you name them?

21 A. Of course. There was Jovan Raskovic; there was Karadzic;

22 Krajisnik; Professor Gugo Lazarevic; Biljana Plavsic; and some more. I

23 can't be sure. There were many more. There were also local ones. But

24 these were the leaders of the SDS.

25 Q. Did you know what positions they held at that time?

1 A. Of course. Yes, I do.

2 Q. Raskovic, what was his position?

3 A. He was the president, I believe, the president of the SDS for the

4 Knin Krajina.

5 Q. And Krajisnik?

6 A. The -- he was in the top leadership of the SDS of the Bosnian

7 Serbs. I believe he was the deputy president of the SDS.

8 Q. Plavsic?

9 A. Also, I believe.

10 Q. And Karadzic?

11 A. That is known. President of the SDS.

12 Q. And Professor Lazarevic?

13 A. Then or later he didn't really have an important political

14 position. Professor Lazarevic was, I have to say, a very well known and

15 very well respected Banja Luka intellectual and we all respected him. But

16 at that rally, many of us, we had to change our opinion.

17 May I continue?

18 Q. If you can explain to the Chamber what the general theme of the

19 rally was.

20 A. The general theme was calling for the unity of the Serbian

21 people. And naturally, of course, pointing at what the others were doing,

22 that in fact the moment had come when the Serb people have to be united,

23 and only united could they realise their objective. That was more or less

24 what the topic was, the theme.

25 Q. And what did this mean for you?

1 A. As for me, personally, this was an exceptionally difficult event.

2 I -- in fact, I could hardly believe that something like this was

3 happening because in Banja Luka we lived in a very multicultural

4 surroundings where we absolutely did not think or even talk about who was

5 who. As far as I'm concerned, I had many more friends who were Serbs than

6 those who were Bosniaks or Croats. And now that we're talking about the

7 Atlas agency that I ran, when you ask me what Nada Crljenica is, as

8 ethnicity, who is even now a citizen, I find it very difficult because

9 even today I cannot make this kind of division to say that Nada is one

10 thing that, Mirsada is another. As long as I live, I will never be able

11 to accept that kind of division. But unfortunately, I am in a position to

12 state these things.

13 Q. So how did this rally make you feel?

14 A. At first just like now, I felt very emotional. I couldn't believe

15 that anything was going -- like this was going to happen in a town like

16 this, where we were all one in the same thing. We were all on the

17 promenade, on the beach. What was happening? However, I have to say that

18 clearly what happened is a reflex from that rally that also reflected on

19 the seconds on another side and another on a third side. It is well known

20 that nationalisms will breed new nationalisms. And for us who were unable

21 to accept that -- and there were many of us. I don't only mean -- and I

22 have to say this again. It's not only related to Bosniaks, but also to

23 Croats and to Serbs. Many of us, we were not willing to accept this.

24 Q. And, sir, what did you do about this? Did you form a group?

25 A. Immediately we reacted. We tried -- those of us who had this

1 opinion, to establish a kind of forum -- intellectuals forum, but of all

2 intellectuals. We called ourselves, as our names were. Boro, Milan, and

3 Ante. But we didn't gather on the grounds of nationality, of ethnicity.

4 But we gathered as a group in the Dom Kultura in the house of culture in

5 the small hall. This is the Dom Kultura, the way we called it, this is

6 Banski Dvor, which is the town hall. And naturally we wanted to have our

7 say, to resist this kind of assault of nationalism -- of nationalisms

8 again, of all kinds. We wanted to resist.

9 Q. I now want to ask you some questions about weapons. Were you

10 aware of Serbs being armed with any weapons?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... this occur?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. When did this occur?

15 A. That was already in 1991. That's when it really started going

16 strong.

17 Q. Can you be a little bit more specific in relation to 1991. Was it

18 in the second half of 1991?

19 A. Well, already in the beginning of the second half, if not before.

20 But certainly it was in the -- at the beginning of the second half of

21 1991.

22 Q. And where did you see this happening?

23 A. Personally -- shall I tell you about it?

24 Q. Where were you? Where were you when you saw the Serbs being

25 armed?

1 A. One night quite late I came to my mother-in-law's, to my wife's

2 mother, in a location which is in the centre of town. And my

3 mother-in-law called me to the balcony to have a look at something. I

4 went. And just opposite this balcony, there is a sky scraper, perhaps 12

5 to 15 floors, where -- and we all knew that -- where there were mostly

6 either retired or active military personnel of Serb nationality. I have

7 to say I always find it very hard to specify of Serb ethnicity. And what

8 I saw was a scene which was very obvious. There was a military lorry with

9 military insignia, with soldiers, JNA soldiers. The lorry was --

10 Q. Sorry. If I can just stop you there. You said that it was a

11 military lorry with military insignia. What sort of number plates did the

12 vehicle have?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. What sort of number plates?

15 A. Considering that I was a member of the municipal staff for

16 people's defence for a long time, I know all these insignia and signs,

17 symbols, because I drove these vehicles and I had manoeuvres with these

18 vehicles. They had these typical numbers and letters. There was no doubt

19 that this was a military vehicle.

20 Q. And what did you see the military personnel doing?

21 A. Well, for about an hour they were taking out crates that was of

22 this military colour, olive drab colour. And they were taking these

23 crates into the skyscraper. And I know what was in the crates, because I

24 personally know what is contained in these kind of crates. I know that

25 when I was in the field. And these were weapons and ammunition.

1 Q. Did you hear who received these weapons?

2 A. As it happens, a lady was an acquaintance of my wife, and in some

3 conversation they happened to have had, said that -- she said that in this

4 skyscraper -- and again I find it difficult to say that the Serbs were

5 getting the weapons from the army, that they were being armed by the army.

6 Q. Did anyone else inform you about weapons being distributed?

7 A. Yes. A great friend of mine from a settlement of Borik

8 immediately the following morning he told me when he came to see me -- and

9 he was slightly astonished. He said he came late home and he could hardly

10 get into the skyscraper because there was this military lorry which was

11 parked in reverse next to the skyscraper and that they were carrying

12 crates into the skyscraper. And so we told each other what we thought of

13 this. I told him that the night before, I had watched it with my own

14 eyes.

15 Q. Was there any other occasion that you saw weapons being

16 distributed?

17 A. In my apartment where I lived, it was a large building with

18 multi-ethnic citizens who lived there. And one night there was some

19 strange noise. And so we went out to see -- to the window to see what was

20 happening. And what I saw outside parked in front of my entrance --

21 Q. Can you just tell me when this was, the time.

22 A. April or May -- April or May 1992.

23 Q. And this was in the Starcevica settlement where you lived?

24 A. Yes. Starcevica that's correct.

25 Q. And Sir, can you tell the Court what you saw that evening.

1 A. Clearly I was frightened. And through the curtain, I was

2 watching. And I believe that there were five -- but I believe that they

3 were reserves because they always had a little distinguishing feature from

4 active soldiers. The reserves were always a little less tidy. A soldier

5 is a soldier after all. And they were carrying out in front of these five

6 entrances, but only into the apartments where members -- again I find it

7 difficult to say -- of the Serb ethnicity were living. And when this was

8 over, one of them in that area, in that part of that lorry, as far as I

9 could see, he was happy with what he had done. He then fired a burst of

10 gunfire from a machine-gun. And then they just vanished.

11 Q. This lorry that you have described that the soldiers had, was this

12 a military vehicle with, again, JNA insignia?

13 A. Yes. Yes.

14 Q. And approximately how long was the lorry parked out the front of

15 your apartment block?

16 A. Well, approximately one hour.

17 Q. Sir, when did you become aware of the Serbian defence forces, or

18 the SOS?

19 A. It was beginning of April. I can't tell you the exact date. When

20 I arrived at work, I saw something new for me. It's very close by. In

21 front of the municipality, on the side where Atlas stood, there was a

22 group that I hadn't seen before, a group of soldiers I hadn't seen before.

23 They were very young. I mean, they were young, and they were all well

24 selected. They were all good-looking, and they were all properly dressed,

25 in camouflage uniform of a new kind. And I soon found out that this was a

1 new formation, a new unit, which was called the Serb defence forces, or

2 abbreviation SOS.

3 Q. Sorry. Excuse me. When you said "the municipality," do you mean

4 in front of the municipal building?

5 A. Yes. From both corners. From both corners, I could -- I saw them

6 then.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Fauveau.

8 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise. I believe

9 there is a problem in interpretation. He did not see -- he did not see

10 the Serb defence forces. The witness said "Serb liberation forces."

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Possibly. It's a slip of the

12 tongue. I meant defence forces.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Are you happy with that?

14 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

16 You may proceed. Please.

17 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes, Your Honour.

18 Q. How were these -- were these soldiers armed?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. How were they armed?

21 A. They had some rather modern short-barreled machine-guns. I can't

22 tell you the exact term, because I don't know what these type of weapons

23 are called.

24 Q. Were you or your family ever harassed by the SOS?

25 A. First, when I returned home, my wife who was working in a company

1 in Banja Luka, she was all frightened. And she told me what had happened

2 to her that morning. On the way from Starcevica into town, in the car,

3 she was stopped. She was stopped by the members of presumably this SOS

4 group at the bridge near the student's hostel on the way into town. They

5 ordered her to open the boot. She said that they were quite sharp with

6 her. They checked whether she had weapons. And she was all frightened

7 because this was happening in a free town of Banja Luka. She was

8 disbelieving that this was happening. And at that moment, a lot of things

9 happened to her inwardly.

10 Q. Mr. Fazlagic, do you know the accused Radoslav Brdjanin?

11 A. Of course.

12 Q. When did you meet Mr. Brdjanin for the first time?

13 A. I think it was at the time when he was -- when the president of

14 the municipality was Zivko Radisic and I was his chef de cabinet.

15 Q. Do you recall what year it was?

16 A. It was perhaps at the time just before I left the municipality.

17 But presumably that was in 1980, perhaps 1981. Because we had many

18 meetings with the people who were businessmen in the region. And at the

19 time, Mr. Brdjanin was a businessman. And there were many different

20 meetings that we attended there and in Banja Luka.

21 Q. What business was Mr. Brdjanin in?

22 A. As far as I can recall, Mr. Brdjanin worked in a civil engineering

23 company in Celinac.

24 Q. Between 1980 and 1991, how often did you see Mr. Brdjanin after

25 that -- during that time?

1 A. Not often. Not often. Let's say that it was perhaps twice. Maybe

2 more, but I can't recall. Twice.

3 Q. Did you have any personal dealings with Mr. Brdjanin in 1991 or

4 1992?

5 A. No, except when there were problems with the Atlas agency. And

6 then my people went to see Mr. Brdjanin.

7 Q. We will discuss that in some detail shortly.

8 How often did you see Mr. Brdjanin in Banja Luka during this

9 period?

10 A. In the period when the Crisis Staff of the AP Krajina was

11 established, I saw him very often, as he was going into the building of

12 the municipal assembly in Banja Luka.

13 Q. And when did you first become aware of the Crisis Staff?

14 A. As soon as it was established. That was, as far as I can

15 remember -- this was already the end of 1991. And in 1992, they were very

16 active.

17 Q. Where would you see Mr. Brdjanin?

18 A. Regularly, as he went into the municipal assembly building,

19 because they had some premises -- I know where these premises were. I

20 know every part of the municipal building. And so they had these premises

21 there where there was the office of this new body.

22 Q. And where were you when you saw Mr. Brdjanin?

23 A. My office is in a very interesting position, interesting location.

24 It is between two streets on the corner looking out, between the street of

25 Veselina Maslese and Fra Grga Martic Street, and the Veselina Maslese

1 Street borders the municipal assembly building. So from this corner, I

2 could see everything very well. I could see everything clearly, who was

3 going into the building. Of course, I could see the Banski Dvor, the town

4 hall, and the park.

5 MS. SUTHERLAND: If the witness can be shown this map. And it can

6 be marked Prosecution Exhibit 534 A.

7 Your Honours, copies are being provided to the Defence.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Ms. Sutherland.

9 MS. SUTHERLAND:

10 Q. Sir, is this --

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Wait until we get our copy so that we can follow.

12 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, Mr. President.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, thank you.

14 I just asked counsel to wait until we get our copies.

15 Yes. Are we going to put the map on the ELMO so that -- if the

16 witness is going to be asked to identify or point to places, I think

17 that's the way to go about it.

18 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes, he will, sir. I just want to give him a

19 chance to orient himself with the map.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you.

21 MS. SUTHERLAND:

22 Q. Sir, is this a portion of a -- a larger map that you saw

23 yesterday?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And have you got your bearings on the map?

1 A. Of course.

2 Q. Could you please place it on this machine to your right. Sir, if

3 you can just put the -- give it to the usher.

4 Can you take a pen that's by the side of the machine. Not black.

5 Any colour but black. Not black.

6 And can you just point, first of all without marking it -- but can

7 you just point to where your office is located -- was located, Atlas. And

8 if you can do it on the ELMO machine, not on the monitor.

9 A. What I'm showing is the street of Veselina Maslese.

10 Q. If you can point it out on the ELMO machine.

11 A. Yes, fine. [In English] Just a moment.

12 Q. That marking the document, if you can just point to the place

13 where Atlas Prima Tours offices were.

14 A. Here. Here. Exactly here.

15 Q. If you can mark that with the letter "A," where the offices are.

16 If you can mark that with the letter "A."

17 A. Do you want me to mark it?

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, yes. Exactly.

19 MS. SUTHERLAND:

20 Q. Where the offices were.

21 A. [Marks]

22 JUDGE AGIUS: And could you put your initials next to that "A,"

23 please, your initials.

24 THE WITNESS: [Marks]

25 MS. SUTHERLAND: Thank you, Your Honour.

1 Q. If you can now point without marking, but just point to where the

2 municipal building is on that map.

3 A. Of course. It's right here.

4 Q. Where the municipal building is, can you mark that with the letter

5 "M," please.

6 A. I'll do it, yes.

7 Q. And also initial it.

8 A. [Marks]

9 Q. Thank you.

10 MS. SUTHERLAND: If the witness can now be given this diagram.

11 Do you have that, Your Honours?

12 JUDGE AGIUS: We have a diagram. But it doesn't have a -- an

13 exhibit number as yet.

14 MS. SUTHERLAND: If that can be Prosecution Exhibit P535.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] P535.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Don't worry about the numbers, sir. Let us worry.

17 MS. SUTHERLAND: Copies of this diagram have been provided to the

18 Defence.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: This is a diagram which is dated 11/4/2002; no?

21 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

23 MS. SUTHERLAND:

24 Q. Sir, can you please tell the Court what this is a diagram of.

25 A. It represents an amateur diagram of the location of Atlas, of the

1 municipality building, the park in which the orthodox church is now being

2 built, and the Banski Dvor, the Hotel Bosna --

3 Q. Sir, if you'd just like to place that on the ELMO next to you. If

4 you can just point to where your offices were located?

5 A. Right here.

6 Q. And can you point to the municipal building, please.

7 A. [Indicates]

8 Q. And what is the building directly in front of that building?

9 Sorry. Sorry. For the record, you're pointing to the building marked

10 "Skupstina opstina."

11 A. Yes, municipal building.

12 Q. And the building directly in front of that is what?

13 A. This?

14 Q. Yes.

15 A. We called it the house of culture. But it's been also known as

16 the Palace of the Ban, Banski Dvor.

17 Q. Yes. And you're pointing now to Banski Dvor?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. The building to the left of that, marked "SDK," what was in that

20 building?

21 A. Here money was deposited after the daily transactions. It was

22 also here that we carried the money at the end of the day, the money that

23 we collected by the sales of tickets, all the transactions were carried

24 here -- were registered here.

25 Q. That's the financial accounting building.

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Can we just go back to the Atlas building. Whereabouts was your

3 office within that building?

4 A. Right at the very corner on the floor, with a small protruding

5 balcony.

6 Q. Can you just mark -- can you just take one of those pens again and

7 mark where the balcony protruded out from the corner of the building.

8 A. [Marks]

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Can you initialise it, please.

10 THE WITNESS: [Marks]

11 MS. SUTHERLAND:

12 Q. Thank you. And so from -- it was this position on the balcony,

13 the window balcony, that you were able to see Mr. Brdjanin; is that

14 correct?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. So how far from the balcony window to the entrance of the

17 municipal building?

18 A. From 7 to 10 metres. That's my assessment. And as far as I

19 believe my eyesight is good. From 7 to 10 metres.

20 Q. Thank you. We're finished with those -- the diagram. That can be

21 returned to the registrar.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Sorry, one moment. Before the diagram is returned,

23 there is a signature at the bottom of the page.

24 MS. SUTHERLAND: Oh, I'm sorry, Your Honour.

25 Q. Mr. Fazlagic, whose signature is that on the bottom of the page?

1 A. Yes.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: It's your signature?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

4 MS. SUTHERLAND:

5 Q. And were you asked to sign and date it yesterday?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Thank you.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

9 MS. SUTHERLAND:

10 Q. Sir, from that balcony in the Atlas office, can you tell the Court

11 the names of any people you saw entering the municipal building during the

12 time period that you were referring to the Crisis Staff.

13 A. Yes. In view of the fact that I didn't know exactly who were all

14 the members of the Crisis Staff, I will tell you the names for whom then I

15 learned later were members of the staff. Milan Puvacic, my good friend;

16 then Dr. --

17 Q. How often did you -- I'm sorry. How often did you see Mr. Puvacic

18 enter the building?

19 A. Very often.

20 Q. How long had you known him?

21 A. I've known him from my secondary school.

22 Q. Did you know his occupation in 1992?

23 A. Yes, of course. He was -- he had a legal background. And he was

24 a judge and a lawyer.

25 Q. Who else did you see?

1 A. Dr. Vukic.

2 Q. And how long have you known Dr. Vukic?

3 A. Well, the visits to the municipal bodies and visits to the

4 hospital, I did see him. I met him. I already -- from 1985 or 6.

5 Q. And how often would you see him enter the building?

6 A. Well, practically every morning. Before entering the building, he

7 would buy at the kiosk, which was right across the road, he would be

8 buying the newspapers, cigarettes. And with the newspaper and cigarettes,

9 he would enter the municipal building in uniform. And with a very

10 market -- very big pistol on the right side.

11 Q. And was this the kiosk that you drew that is across from the

12 office in the drawing?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Did you recognise anyone else entering the building?

15 A. Yes. Of course the president -- namely, the mayor would enter

16 every morning. But of course, there's no question whether he attended or

17 not the Crisis Staff. But you see, he -- that was his headquarters. Then

18 there was Rajko Kasagic, then Dr. Milanovic, then some --

19 Q. I'm sorry. If we can just go back to Mr. Radic. How long had you

20 known Mr. Radic?

21 A. Well, at least some 20 and more years, because Mr. Predrag Radic

22 played in the team -- football team Borac and I was also active on that

23 team. So on that basis, we knew each other quite well. And we were also

24 pleased when at that occasion, Mr. Radic was appointed to the head of the

25 municipality in this situation.

1 Q. Had you known Mr. Radic for some 25 years at that point?

2 A. At least.

3 MS. SUTHERLAND: If the witness can be shown Exhibit P227, which

4 is the Official Gazette of the Autonomous Region of Krajina, issue number

5 2 of 92.

6 Q. While we're waiting for that document, sir, can you tell us how

7 long had you known Mr. Kasagic for.

8 A. Well, I've heard about him. At the time he still wasn't in Banja

9 Luka. And then when he did come, then I saw him, let's say, rather

10 frequently, quite frequently, particularly in town; then at other events;

11 and also I paid him once a personal visit.

12 Q. And how often did you see him enter the building?

13 A. Every morning, except when he was on a business trip, because he

14 had -- he was occupying a certain position. That was de facto the Banja

15 Luka government. It was -- it's -- it was termed as the executive

16 council.

17 Q. Thank you. If you could look at the second decision that's

18 published in that Official Gazette. If you can turn to the second page of

19 that document. That is a decision of the 5th of May, 1992 listing members

20 of the ARK Crisis Staff. If we can go down that list of persons, can you

21 tell me which of those persons you saw enter the municipal building.

22 A. Of course. Mr. Radoslav Brdjanin, Mr. Vojo Kupresanin --

23 Q. I'm sorry. You've told us about Mr. Brdjanin. You said that you

24 saw him quite often entering the building.

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. How often did you see Vojo Kupresanin enter the building?

2 A. Well, I didn't observe this every morning. I had also other

3 matters to attend to. But I did see him at least a few times.

4 Q. And how long had you known Vojo Kupresanin?

5 A. Well, approximately as long as Mr. Brdjanin, because Mr. Vojo

6 was -- came when the president -- Zivko Radisic was the president, and he

7 was co-opted in one of the bodies, at the regional level, of course prior

8 to these events.

9 Q. Can you tell, please.

10 A. Predrag Radic.

11 Q. You've mentioned him.

12 A. Radislav Vukic, Dr. Milan Milanovic.

13 Q. How long have you known Dr. Milanovic for?

14 A. Very long indeed. Since the time when -- Mr. Seid Maglajlija was

15 the mayor of Banja Luka. We were contacting quite frequently in

16 connection with the university.

17 Q. Do you recall what year you first met Dr. Milanovic approximately?

18 A. 1970- -- 1975 or 1976.

19 Q. And how often did you see him entering the building?

20 A. Well, I've mentioned -- I stated before that I wasn't standing

21 there intentionally every morning, like Inspector Maigret [phoen] but

22 occasionally I would stand up and look, maybe three or four times.

23 Q. Can you continue.

24 A. Stojan Zupljanin.

25 Q. How long have you known Stojan Zupljanin for?

1 A. Well, I've known him a rather long time. He worked in the

2 Secretariat of Interior. Now it's called the Ministry of Interior, the

3 police. And he was close to a group of persons, to which I was also

4 close. So we did see each other and have a drink together.

5 Q. How often did he enter the building?

6 A. Often. When I looked, of course.

7 Q. General Momir Talic, did you ever see him enter the municipal

8 building?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And how did you know General Talic?

11 A. Well, General Talic was an impressive figure of a general, and he

12 would stand out. And it was easy to notice him, and it was a face one

13 would remember. And I know the gentleman not personally, but I attended

14 secondary school in Banja Luka together with his brother, if that is his

15 brother. But I believe that was -- that is his brother.

16 Q. How many times did you see General Talic enter the municipal

17 building?

18 A. Well, I don't think more than twice.

19 Q. Is there anybody else on that list that you have in front of you

20 that you saw enter the building? You have mentioned Mr. Puvacic already.

21 A. Yes, Milan Puvacic very often.

22 Q. Besides him, is there anybody else on the remainder of the list?

23 A. Djuro Bulic, who also worked in the police. I think he was the

24 deputy chief. They often changed. I saw him quite frequently. The

25 others, I can't remember them by their names, but I probably knew these

1 people. But quite some time has passed.

2 Q. Thank you.

3 A. [In English] Okay.

4 MS. SUTHERLAND: If that exhibit can be returned to the registry,

5 and if the witness can be shown Prosecution Exhibit 181.

6 I've provided the Defence and also the registry today with both

7 pages of that exhibit with better copies of the photographs.

8 Q. Witness, do you have a single sheet of paper?

9 A. Yes. Yes, but it's -- there's material on both sides.

10 Q. Just a moment.

11 Witness, if you can just look at the front page of that newspaper.

12 It's the Glas newspaper dated the 9th of May, 1992. What is depicted in

13 that photograph?

14 A. This is from -- a picture from one of the regional centres

15 premises of information dissemination in Banja Luka.

16 Q. Where is that room located?

17 A. In the cellar of the municipal building. And closed off with

18 reinforced steel doors.

19 Q. When was the first time you saw this information centre?

20 A. When it was inaugurated, the celebration for its inauguration. And

21 I wouldn't know the exact year. Seid Maglajlija was still the municipal

22 president. It must have been somewhere in 1970s. End of the 1970s.

23 Q. Was this the only room to the information centre?

24 A. No. Inside in it, there were two or three other rooms with

25 printers, fax machines, Telex machines. And for those -- at those times,

1 it was considered to be the most modern such facility in Bosnia and

2 Herzegovina.

3 Q. And was this centre used to disseminate and receive information

4 from Banja Luka and other municipalities and republic authorities at that

5 time?

6 A. Yes. It was of a wider importance. As for Banja Luka, those of

7 us who lived there, we all know that Banja Luka covered, in fact, a wider

8 area. And that's -- normally it was a regional centre. Because all this

9 information that was gathered was collected there. Information that was

10 gathered was sent there.

11 Q. Sir, if I could just ask you to turn to the other page, page 3 of

12 the article. Do you recognise any one of the persons sitting at that

13 table?

14 A. Three of them very well indeed.

15 Q. From left -- going from left to right, can you name them?

16 A. Miro Mladenovic. He was the editor-in-chief of the Glas

17 newspaper. Then Mr. Milanovic. The second man, I don't know. The second

18 man, I don't know. I mean, the photograph doesn't really tell me

19 anything. So the third man is Dr. Milanovic. And this next man I still

20 don't know. It's a very recognisable face that I know, but I can't

21 remember. And then Mr. Brdjanin.

22 Q. Thank you. Did you ever see Radoslav Brdjanin on television?

23 MR. ACKERMAN: Excuse me. He must be looking at a different

24 photograph than we are.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: We are looking at this one, Mr. Ackerman, on the --

1 what Ms. Sutherland said, the third page -- well, actually it's --

2 MS. SUTHERLAND: Exhibit 181.

3 MR. ACKERMAN: He has five people there, and I only see four.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Five -- he has five people there.

5 MR. ACKERMAN: I only see four people.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There are five people.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: There are?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] One, two, three, four, five.

9 MS. SUTHERLAND: Mr. Ackerman, you've got the wrong page.

10 MR. ACKERMAN: That would explain it, wouldn't it?

11 JUDGE AGIUS: You're not looking at the same photo.

12 MR. ACKERMAN: I'm not. Obviously not.

13 MS. SUTHERLAND: Usher, could you please give this to

14 Mr. Ackerman.

15 MR. ACKERMAN: Oh, yes. It makes a great deal of sense now.

16 Thank you.

17 MS. SUTHERLAND:

18 Q. Sir, did you ever see Mr. Brdjanin on television?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. How often did you see him?

21 A. Well, I didn't really watch television all that much. Very often

22 we had electricity cuts in our locality. But let's say that I may have

23 seen him twice.

24 Q. And when was it that you saw him on television? During what

25 period of time?

1 A. That would be in that period when the Crisis Staff was active,

2 which would have been 1992, 1992 spring, approximately.

3 Q. What was the general nature of his speeches?

4 A. Now, as far as we are concerned, those of us who couldn't really

5 face this time, this period of time, it was difficult. It was hard. It

6 was unacceptable. It was a general call to something that we couldn't

7 accept. And we couldn't understand that anybody could be speaking like

8 this. About, for instance, Mr. Brdjanin was giving some data about

9 Bosniaks in that area, saying that only a certain number of Bosniaks would

10 stay in that area. There were some figures that were being given, some

11 2.000, and there were some percentages being talked about, a certain

12 percentage. And what that meant, 5 to 6 per cent, which means that 95 per

13 cent would have to leave their native land, among whom, of course, I was

14 forced to do the same, unfortunately. I had to leave my town, a town that

15 I had given everything to. And I'm wondering why, why I left. What did I

16 actually do?

17 Q. Do you recall reading any articles or newspapers written by

18 Mr. Brdjanin -- about Mr. Brdjanin?

19 A. These were mostly reports about the work and the decisions of the

20 Crisis Staff, where the public was given some announcements about actions

21 undertaken against the Serbs. And such an article would in fact make me

22 cry as well as laugh. It would upset me, make me emotional, and I would

23 be also disbelieving of this. And I could quote Mr. Brdjanin's words to

24 you, that I, Ibrahim Fazlagic, was a drastic case, a radical case, because

25 out of the six dismissed members of personnel, I had dismissed six members

1 who were Serbs, of Serb ethnicity, which wasn't true, and that this was

2 unacceptable and it could just not happen.

3 Q. We will deal with that issue in a moment.

4 Just getting back to the newspaper articles that talked about

5 things that Mr. Brdjanin had said, was there anything else that you

6 recall?

7 A. Well, later I read some decisions. As I said, this is mostly

8 related to decisions in the newspapers. We would just read decisions

9 about the general mobilisation.

10 Q. Did you ever hear Mr. Brdjanin on the radio?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. How many times?

13 A. I didn't listen to the radio often, but I think I heard him at

14 least once or twice.

15 Q. Which time -- what time period are we talking about?

16 A. We're talking about the same period in 1992, this period when

17 there were these upheavals.

18 Q. Do you recall what he said on the radio?

19 A. I don't recall the details. But the theme, general theme, was

20 what I had heard on TV about the activities that have to be undertaken.

21 What he presented really was a kind of platform, a programme about what

22 was to follow, what had to be done. And these activities really ended up

23 happening.

24 MS. SUTHERLAND: Could the witness please be shown Prosecution

25 Exhibit 137. And this is a Glas newspaper dated the 9th of -- 4th of

1 April. I'm sorry.

2 Your Honour, I provided both the registrar and the Defence with

3 better copies of the photograph that's contained within that exhibit.

4 Q. Sir, how many people appear in that photograph?

5 A. I can see four.

6 Q. Do you recognise any of the persons in that photograph?

7 A. All four of them.

8 Q. So from left to right, can you please tell the Court who they are.

9 A. I think this is Stojan Zupljanin, Predrag Radic, Mr. Brdjanin, and

10 Mr. Vukic.

11 Q. Thank you.

12 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, I notice the time, and I think this

13 would be --

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. I thank you, Ms. Sutherland.

15 Sir, we are going to stop here for today. We will continue again

16 on Monday in the afternoon, like today. You will come here at -- we will

17 start the -- continue hearing your evidence at 2.15 on Monday. But you

18 will be advised at what time -- exactly what time you are required to be

19 here.

20 The witness can be escorted out.

21 In the meantime, between now and next Monday, please, you are not

22 allowed to speak to anyone or contact -- have any contact with anyone with

23 regard to this case or with regard to your testimony.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand completely.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. I thank you.

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you so much.

2 [The witness stands down]

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

4 So that brings us to the end of our labours for this week. I wish

5 you all a nice weekend, and we'll meet again on Monday at 2.15. Thank

6 you.

7 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.27, to be

8 reconvened on Monday, the 15th day of April, 2002,

9 at 2.15 p.m.

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25