020416ED

Page 4368

1 Tuesday, 16 April 2002

2 [Open session]

3 --- Upon commencing at 2.17 p.m.

4 [The accused entered court]

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Madam Registrar, could you call the case, please.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. This is the case number

7 IT-99-36-T, the Prosecutor versus Radoslav Brdjanin and Momir Talic.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Brdjanin, good afternoon to you. Can you hear

9 me in a language that you can understand?

10 THE ACCUSED BRDJANIN: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your

11 Honour. I can hear you and understand you.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. You may sit down.

13 General Talic, good afternoon to you. Can you hear me in a

14 language that you can understand?

15 THE ACCUSED TALIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honour.

16 Yes, I can hear you.

17 THE INTERPRETER: The microphone is not switched on.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: It's all right. It still registered.

19 Okay. Appearances for the Prosecution.

20 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, appearances in order of seniority:

21 Joanna Korner, Anna Richterova, Ann Sutherland, assisted by Denise Gustin,

22 case manager.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Ms. Korner. And good afternoon to

24 you.

25 Appearances for Mr. Brdjanin.

Page 4369

1 MR. ACKERMAN: Good afternoon, Your Honours. I'm John Ackerman

2 for Mr. Brdjanin, along with my co-counsel Milka Maglov and my legal

3 assistant Tania Radosavljevic.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Good afternoon to you.

5 Appearances for General Talic.

6 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr.

7 President, Your Honours. I'm Natasha Fauveau-Ivanovic, and I represent

8 General Talic.

9 Before beginning, I should like to inform the Chamber that

10 yesterday we filed a motion -- or rather, a response to the Prosecution

11 motion regarding two witnesses for the admission of their statements under

12 92 bis. Unfortunately, two errors crept into that motion, and I wish to

13 convey my excuses to Your Honours and also to the representatives of the

14 Office of the Prosecution, and to inform you that we filed corrections

15 today.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. I have it in my Chamber -- I was

17 waiting for the translation. I just went through it in French, but I

18 don't have the corrected versions, or the corrections. So I will wait for

19 those. Good afternoon to you.

20 Preliminaries? Ms. Korner.

21 MS. KORNER: Yes, Your Honour, Mr. Ackerman remarked as he walked

22 in that something must be seriously wrong if there were three of us here

23 today. It's not actually the case. Your Honour, I'm here really to

24 tender my apologies on behalf of myself and Mr. Cayley that neither of us

25 can be here this afternoon. As Your Honour knows, Stakic started this

Page 4370

1 morning, and I have to deal -- or I have to see the witness for tomorrow

2 this afternoon, and I have to get back to Stakic tomorrow morning. That's

3 what you might call all-go at the moment. So that's the real reason I'm

4 here; to apologise. But while I am here, can I just deal with a couple of

5 matters that I understand that Your Honour raised.

6 First of all -- or rather, Mr. Ackerman raised yesterday. One was

7 the question of the sitting hours and translation. Your Honour, we

8 discussed the matter, and it seems to us that it really must be subject to

9 Your Honours' rulings, obviously, matter for the interpreters, if they

10 feel that they can't cope with short breaks.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Definitely. But the information I received during

12 the break did not exactly tally with what Mr. Ackerman had said. I mean,

13 it's something which is going to be verified, of course. And as I said,

14 the last thing that this Chamber would try to do is to inconvenience the

15 interpreters. I know how difficult their job is and how demanding it is

16 on the mental powers of concentration. So you can rest assured that we

17 will take everything into consideration and we will make any adjustments

18 that may become necessary as we go along.

19 I am informed, however, that the problem was not exactly what

20 Mr. Ackerman mentioned or how he described it. In any case, it's being

21 checked by Madam Registrar, and I'm being kept informed.

22 As for today, I think we are going to maintain -- maintain the

23 same schedule as yesterday except that there will be times when we will

24 break for five minutes only, giving the technicians time -- enough time to

25 change the tapes, which I understand have to be changed every hour and 40

Page 4371

1 or 45 minutes, instead of every two hours. So -- but that is being taken

2 care of. I do appreciate your concern for the interpreters, Ms. Korner.

3 I think we all share the same concern. We know how precious they are and

4 how useful and dedicated they are to the work of this Trial Chamber -- to

5 this Tribunal, not just this Trial Chamber. I thank you.

6 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, then two other matters. First, in

7 respect of the time that will be required to deal with the application on

8 behalf of the journalist to set aside the witness summons on the 10th of

9 May, Your Honour, I would say that the maximum two hours, and probably

10 less.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: But would that include Mr. Robinson's intervention,

12 the lawyer, in other words, your -- possibly your intervention, and any

13 anticipated interventions from the Defence teams, or just -- or just

14 Mr. Robinson?

15 MS. KORNER: It's -- really, we're working on the basis that it --

16 Mr. Robertson is going to apply to set aside the witness summons, grounds

17 at the moment unknown to me.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: That's what I would imagine.

19 MS. KORNER: Yes. And we would respond. But obviously, I

20 suppose -- well, no. Your Honour, I don't think unless Your Honours were

21 to allow either Defence team to intervene, it's not really a matter for

22 the Defence. We have issued -- no, I'm sorry, Your Honours have issued a

23 witness summons, a lawful witness summons. Mr. Robertson is going to

24 object, we're going to respond, and I think it's a matter, Your Honour,

25 whether the Defence have a right to intervene.

Page 4372

1 I see Mr. Ackerman straight up.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: So that point is taken. There is another point --

3 yes, Mr. Ackerman.

4 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I totally agree with Ms. Korner, as we

5 would say in Texas, I don't have a dog in that fight.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Given that perhaps after having heard

7 Mr. Robertson's submissions, we decide to give an oral judgement decision,

8 say, the same day, are you anticipating that the journalist would be

9 present here in The Hague or to give evidence immediately, or do you

10 plan having him here at a later point in time?

11 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, my -- the idea would be that he's here.

12 And then if Your Honour rules that the witness summons should not be set

13 aside, he'd give evidence. I understand that he won't be here. I rather

14 feel that if the ruling goes against Mr. Robertson, there may be an

15 appeal. But as I understand the matter -- and I'm reluctant really to

16 go into detail -- he won't be here. But I will make -- I will

17 make further inquiries. As Your Honour knows, I have to reply to the

18 request that was made by the solicitors in respect of the transcripts,

19 which Your Honours have now ruled may be given. And I will ask whether

20 the journalist intends to be here.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: And you can fit in Mr. Robertson -- not

22 Mr. Robertson, his client, the journalist -- anywhere within your

23 witness --

24 MS. KORNER: It would be preferable, Your Honour, obviously to

25 deal with him straight away, because it's close to the Banja Luka

Page 4373

1 evidence.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, exactly. And this is why I'm asking actually.

3 MS. KORNER: Yes. I think Your Honour -- I'm going to make some

4 further inquiries as to whether he would be here. Because if he is, then

5 we can deal with -- it's very short evidence --

6 JUDGE AGIUS: I know. This is why I consider -- I mean, there may

7 be a principle involved. Mr. Robertson may be -- but it's not that

8 important, because there was a decision by the Supreme Court of the United

9 States precisely these last days. But somewhat -- somewhat different.

10 And it was disposed of because the matter such became moot in the

11 meantime. So -- but anyway, let's leave it at that, and then we'll take

12 it up on the 10th of May. In the meantime, I told Mr. Cayley and

13 Mr. Koumjian and I think Ms. Sutherland as well, that we will make any

14 adjustments as they may become necessary as we approach the date. But

15 with the understanding that Mr. Robertson's submissions will take place

16 during a normal session. In other words, not going to invent another

17 extra session.

18 MS. KORNER: No.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay?

20 MS. KORNER: No. Your Honour, that in fact -- that really leads

21 into the final matter that I wish to raise this afternoon, because it

22 would fit in very nicely in a sense because that week where we don't sit

23 until the Tuesday has been set aside for the first of the witnesses from

24 the humanitarian organisation.

25 Now, Your Honour, that leads me on to the next question.

Page 4374

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Exactly.

2 MS. KORNER: Mr. Ackerman has put in a motion saying that he wants

3 it -- that evidence delayed because of -- he's not received any assistance

4 so far. And in addition to that, the translation of Madam Fauveau's rule

5 -- submission on the Rule 70 aspect has also been received. Your Honour,

6 we can deal with Mr. Ackerman's submissions very quickly, verbally.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: This is what I was getting to. As soon as you

8 finish --

9 MS. KORNER: Yes. And it may be -- I haven't had a chance to read

10 through the translation, although, like Your Honour, I read the French but

11 I'm always a bit nervous as to whether I've got the right meaning.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Exactly. We are exactly in the same position.

13 MS. KORNER: Yes. And therefore, I'd want to consider it. But it

14 may be that we feel at the end of the day that the submissions made by

15 Madam Fauveau are pretty much the same as those made by Mr. Ackerman, to

16 which we've already responded. And so we don't want to respond further.

17 What I was going to suggest was that tomorrow, after the witnesses

18 that Ms. Sutherland is calling have completed and before I call the next

19 witness, if we feel we've already dealt with Madam Fauveau's motion, I

20 could deal orally with Mr. Ackerman's.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: And --

22 MS. KORNER: It would be the fastest way of dealing with it.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. That would be extremely useful, in particular

24 for two reasons -- main reasons: One is that we have been working and we

25 are already, I would say, in a -- at an advanced stage in our research on

Page 4375

1 the submissions made on Mr. Ackerman's motion on 70, particularly one part

2 of Rule 70. In the meantime, of course, the response of General Talic, of

3 Madam Fauveau, has come in, which I looked into again this morning. I do

4 not anticipate our decision to be delayed much on -- on this matter.

5 I would also anticipate that this is something which is

6 fundamentally important -- an issue which is fundamentally important, and

7 whichever way it goes, I would anticipate that there be an appeal. It is

8 also a matter which does not necessarily imply -- say, if it is decided in

9 favour of Mr. Ackerman in whole or in part, I would like you to consider

10 the possibility, if not the probability, that it does not necessarily

11 entail that the witnesses from the particular humanitarian organisation

12 cannot be produced. What is involved is something completely different

13 and which will be decided in favour or against but which may not exactly

14 have a bearing on whether your intended witnesses ought to be produced or

15 not. So that is something which, if you're going to discuss it tomorrow,

16 I would like you to take into -- take into consideration.

17 MS. KORNER: I'm afraid at this stage, Your Honour, having aroused

18 my interest somewhat, I'm somewhat at a loss to know -- I can't -- until

19 Your Honours have issued a ruling --

20 JUDGE AGIUS: No. Obviously --

21 MS. KORNER: -- I can't deal --

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Obviously, no. Because there is a possibility that

23 part of Rule 70 may not exactly comply with the basic principles. Let's

24 say that, for argument's sake, we decide that. But that opens the door --

25 one or more doors for the Defence. It doesn't necessarily close the doors

Page 4376

1 which you already have opened to produce witnesses from that organisation.

2 MS. KORNER: Well, this is gripping, Your Honour. So I think I'll

3 have to wait for the decision.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: This is what I want you -- this is what I want you

5 to think about.

6 MS. KORNER: Well, Your Honour, as best we can, we'll think about

7 this.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. And we will discuss it tomorrow. Tomorrow,

9 do you anticipate to be present at the beginning or towards the end of the

10 session?

11 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I shall be present at the beginning

12 depending on -- although I know, as usual, the short administrative

13 matters have taken a little long, I am anticipating, I hope, that even if

14 there is a little bit left over of the witness coming next, we will be

15 starting with another witness. So I will be here from 2.15.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay.

17 MS. KORNER: And if Your Honour -- unless there is any other

18 matter I can assist on, if Your Honour will excuse me from the rest of the

19 afternoon.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Certainly I will.

21 Okay. So anything else?

22 Can we call the witness now, please. Usher.

23 [The witness entered court]

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Good afternoon, Mr. Fazlagic.

25 THE WITNESS: Good afternoon.

Page 4383

1 Q. And in 1992, while you were still in Banja Luka, were there any

2 that were destroyed?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Thank you.

5 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] I have no further

6 questions, Your Honour, for this witness.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: [Microphone not activated] Re-examination, Ms.

8 Sutherland?

9 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes, Your Honour.

10 Now, what's going to happen, Mr. Fazlagic, is that Ms. Sutherland

11 is going to ask you very few questions in addition to what she's asked you

12 already. And then we'll see whether there are any questions from us, and

13 short of that, that will be the end of it and you can go home.

14 Ms. Sutherland, you may proceed. Thank you.

15 Re-examined by Ms. Sutherland:

16 Q. Mr. Fazlagic, during cross-examination yesterday, Defence counsel

17 Mr. Ackerman asked you some questions in relation to the alleged dismissal

18 of Serbs from Atlas Prima Tours. He put to you the following scenario.

19 This is on page 4340 of LiveNote. "I bet there is room, in your mind, for

20 the possibility that what happened here was incorrect information was

21 given to Mr. Kasagic in December by one of your former employees who said

22 you had dismissed all Serbs and the only people left were two Muslims, two

23 Croats, and two Yugoslavs. That was then picked up by journalists and put

24 in Glas, that you had dismissed all of the Serbs and that there were only

25 two Muslims, two Croats, and two Yugoslavs left, and that Mr. Brdjanin

Page 4384

1 heard about that from Glas, believed it to be true, and repeated it when

2 he was interviewed. Now, that's a scenario that's probably true, isn't

3 it?"

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. In response to the article by the two journalists published in

6 Glas in January 1992, did you give an interview which was also published

7 in Glas?

8 A. Yes.

9 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, I would like to witness to be shown

10 Prosecution Exhibit 5, which has been premarked as P536.

11 Q. Mr. Fazlagic, was an open letter also signed by the employees of

12 Atlas Prima Tours published in Glas shortly thereafter?

13 A. Yes. Yes, it was on their own initiative.

14 Q. Can I ask you to look at that document you have in front of you,

15 P536.

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. What is the headline of that article?

18 A. "False accusations."

19 Q. And that's the letter you referred to in your testimony yesterday,

20 signed by the employees of Atlas?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Basically saying that the accusations that had been made in the

23 article by the two journalists was incorrect.

24 A. Yes.

25 MS. SUTHERLAND: Can the witness be shown Exhibit P165, please.

Page 4385

1 I'm sorry. Just before that's taken from the witness.

2 Q. What's the date of the newspaper Glas, Prosecution Exhibit 536?

3 Does it have a date on the top left-hand corner? A month?

4 A. The month is January.

5 Q. 1992.

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Thank you.

8 A. [In English] Yes.

9 Q. Sir, if you could just look at P165.

10 A. [In English] Okay.

11 Q. You told the Court yesterday that the date of the actual article

12 which mentioned Mr. Brdjanin was dated the 28th of April, 1992; is that

13 correct?

14 A. [Interpretation] Yes. Well, no, the day after.

15 Q. That's right. The article you're referring to is entitled -- and

16 excuse my pronunciation.

17 A. The --

18 Q. Excuse my pronunciation, "Samo Kadrovi Lojalni Srpskoj BiH"?

19 A. Very good. Yes.

20 Q. And that's dated the 29th of April, 1992.

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Between the open letter that was written by the Atlas Prima Tours

23 employees published in Glas in January 1992 and the date of the article

24 citing Mr. Brdjanin in April 1992, did Mr. Brdjanin or the Crisis Staff

25 contact you to ascertain what in fact was the correct position in relation

Page 4386

1 to the people that had been made redundant or had left Atlas Prima Tours?

2 A. No.

3 MS. SUTHERLAND: Thank you. That document can be returned to the

4 registry.

5 Q. Sir, yesterday during cross-examination, Mr. Ackerman showed you

6 P165, the ARK Crisis Staff conclusion terminating Atlas Prima Tours, dated

7 the 3rd of June, 1992. Mr. Ackerman asked you the following question -

8 and this is at page 4348 of LiveNote - "Again, Atlas continued to

9 function and ignored that decision." Your answer: "No, we didn't ignore

10 it, but in a kind of agreement, if I can call it that, we continued

11 working for a while."

12 Sir, after the 3rd of June 1992, decision was a directing body or

13 board appointed in relation to the agency?

14 A. There was a director who was appointed, Mrs. Nada Crljenica, and

15 she took over the responsibility.

16 Q. You mentioned very briefly yesterday in your testimony, at page

17 4315, two people were appointed -- I'm sorry. "A board of management of

18 Krajina Turist, two people were appointed to that board. I remember the

19 name of only one, Mr. Dusko Lajisic." Do you recall saying that?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. What purpose was this board established for? For what purpose?

22 A. Well, it was established so that immediately after Atlas was

23 disbanded, then the work would continue under a new name in the same

24 premises, which was still owned, which was still property of Atlas.

25 That's quite clear.

Page 4387

1 Q. Was their purpose to see through the termination of Atlas Prima

2 Tours?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. During this time that the board was established, after the 3rd of

5 June, 1992 decision, Atlas Prima Tours continued to work while the board

6 was doing whatever they were doing.

7 A. Probably. I don't know. Probably. They were preparing. They

8 were carrying out preparations later when I had already left Atlas, I saw

9 and found out that it had a new name. But up until that period, the

10 crossover period, the name was still Atlas Prima Tours. The name, as a

11 formality.

12 Q. Sir, Mr. Ackerman during cross-examination yesterday at page 4349,

13 made the following comment after discussing the ARK Crisis Staff

14 conclusion of the 9th of May -- and the decision of the 3rd of June,

15 1992. And Mr. Ackerman said: "It's probably true that it did exist,

16 because nobody was paying any attention to the decisions of this supposed

17 ARK Crisis Staff or implementing them in any way." Do you recall him

18 saying that?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Do you agree with that? He didn't -- I'm sorry. Mr. Ackerman

21 didn't give you an opportunity to respond to that comment. Do you agree

22 with that?

23 A. No.

24 MS. SUTHERLAND: Could the witness please be shown Prosecution

25 Exhibit 533.

Page 4388

1 Your Honour, I have a highlighted version of Prosecution Exhibit

2 533 with certain of the text highlighted which I wish to show to the

3 witness. Could he be --

4 JUDGE AGIUS: No. You can show the witness my copy, which is not

5 highlighted. I would rather prefer that. Yours is not highlighted

6 either, I suppose.

7 MS. SUTHERLAND: I'm sorry, Your Honour. What I wanted to do was

8 to actually show him the highlighted text, this document with the text

9 highlighted and draw his attention to this highlighted text.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Oh, I see. I see. I'm sorry. I misunderstood

11 you. Yes, go ahead.

12 MS. SUTHERLAND: Usher?

13 A. [In English] Okay.

14 Q. Could you please look at the highlighted portions of that

15 document and --

16 JUDGE AGIUS: No. Ms. Sutherland, on the ELMO we have exactly

17 what we have in front of us, so we don't know which part you have

18 highlighted for the witness.

19 MS. SUTHERLAND: I'm sorry. Here is the English translation of

20 those highlighted portions.

21 Q. Sir, can you just read the highlighted portions of that document.

22 A. [Interpretation] "Based on a decision of the Crisis Staff of the

23 Autonomous Region of Krajina Banja Luka, decision number 03-531/92, dated

24 22nd of June 1992. I hereby issue -- and then the text follows. And

25 then: "In accordance with the decision of the Crisis Staff of the

Page 4389

1 Autonomous Region of Krajina, Banja Luka, number 03-531/92."

2 Q. Sir, in your view, did people pay attention and implement the

3 orders of the ARK Crisis Staff?

4 A. Well, we received officially just the decision on the cessation of

5 the work of the agency.

6 Q. Thank you, sir. I have no further questions?

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay.

8 [Trial Chamber confers]

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Fazlagic --

10 MS. SUTHERLAND: Oh, I'm sorry, Your Honour. I'm sorry. I have

11 just one other issue that was raised in the cross-examination of

12 Madam Fauveau.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Go ahead.

14 MS. SUTHERLAND:

15 Q. Sir, yesterday, Madam Fauveau during her cross-examination asked

16 the following question. And this is at page 4360 of the LiveNote.

17 "Yesterday you spoke about General Talic and you said that you thought

18 that his brother went to school with you. Do you remember that?"

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. I'm sorry. That was her question. You replied: "Yes. I said

21 that. But I said I wasn't certain whether that was General Talic's

22 brother's brother or his brother." And then your answer continued. In

23 order for us to be clear, who were you referring to when you answered

24 Madam Fauveau's question?

25 A. Yes. The acquaintances of a colleague of Dr. Talic. We thought

Page 4390

1 that that was so.

2 Q. I'm sorry. The transcript reads: "I wasn't certain whether that

3 was General Talic's brother's brother or his brother."

4 A. Yes.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Can't you forget it, Ms. Sutherland? It's not

6 going to change anything in the case, in any case, whether the witness --

7 the schoolmate was General Talic's brother or not, it's not going to

8 change anything. And this fine distinction between a brother's brother

9 and one's brother, frankly, I --

10 MS. SUTHERLAND: I'm more than happy to leave it, Your Honour. I

11 just wanted the transcript to be clear.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: It's okay. But I don't think you're going to have

13 it cleared.

14 MS. SUTHERLAND: Okay.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Because you keep getting a "da," "da," "da," and

16 that's it.

17 So Mr. Fazlagic, that's the end of your testimony. On behalf of

18 the Trial Chamber, I would like to thank you for having come here to give

19 evidence and for your cooperation with the -- with the Chamber, with the

20 Prosecution, and also with the Defence teams. I thank you once more. You

21 will now be escorted out by the usher and taken care of. Thank you.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

23 [The witness withdrew]

24 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, can I formally seek to tender the

25 exhibits which were introduced through this witness?

Page 4401

1 MS. SUTHERLAND: If the witness could be given a copy of his

2 statement in his own language.

3 Q. Sir, if I can take you to page 7 of that statement, where

4 the green tab is. In the English version, it starts on the last two lines

5 of page 6.

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. In the version you have in front of you, it starts the second full

8 paragraph, the fourth line from the end of the paragraph. The sentence

9 begins: "Samardzija then asked me about my other vehicles. I explained

10 that only the Mercedes was in my name and the other vehicles were in my

11 son's or other men's names." What did you wish to correct in this

12 last sentence?

13 A. Shall I make the correction straight away?

14 Q. Yes, please.

15 A. All the vehicles were in my name, but they were used by my son, by

16 my brother, and the workers in my company. And I only used the Mercedes.

17 Q. Thank you. Still on page 7, where the blue tab is, the last

18 sentence. And in the English version, this is halfway through the second

19 full paragraph on page 7. The sentence begins: "The Serbs asked if they

20 could come into my house because they wanted to search it." What did you

21 want to correct about that sentence?

22 A. I just wish to say that they didn't ask. They just entered.

23 Q. Thank you.

24 MS. SUTHERLAND: Mr. Usher, if you could return that document to

25 me.

Page 4402

1 Q. Sir, you were a member of the Communist Party from 1969 until

2 1986.

3 A. Yes, I was.

4 Q. Did you join another party, a political party?

5 A. During the pre-election campaign, I joined the SDA party.

6 Q. Why did you join the SDA?

7 A. I am -- I listened and followed all the programmes of the parties

8 that were running in the elections. My opinion is that the SDA party in

9 those days offered the best programme. Furthermore, I felt that parties

10 like the SDS, with the emphasis on the Serbian Democratic Party, that that

11 was a party I could not belong to, or the Croatian Democratic Union, I

12 couldn't belong to that one either. They all had the adjective

13 "democratic," at least in those days. But the programme of the SDA party

14 was the most appealing to me, and that is why I became its member.

15 Q. Did you attend any political rallies?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Did you attend any SDS rallies?

18 A. I did.

19 Q. When was this?

20 A. It was during the election campaign. There were public rallies in

21 front of the Boska, next to the Boska in the cultural centre, in the

22 centre of town.

23 Q. Do you recall the names of any speakers at that SDS rally that you

24 attended?

25 A. Yes.

Page 4403

1 Q. Can you name them?

2 A. I can. Nikola Koljevic, Biljana Plavsic, Momcilo Krajisnik, Mr.

3 Brdjanin, and many others.

4 Q. Do you remember specifically what any of the speakers said?

5 A. If you mean during the election rallies, all of them were saying

6 that everything would be fine in Bosnia. They made big promises, and they

7 appealed for unity --

8 Q. Did you --

9 A. -- of the Serb people.

10 Q. I'm sorry.

11 A. If we're talking about the SDS rallies.

12 Q. Did you attend any SDS rallies after the multiparty elections?

13 A. After the elections, I did not.

14 Q. This SDS rally that you said you attended, do you recall the

15 general theme of the rally?

16 A. The gist of it was by an open appeal to the people that all the

17 Serbs should give their voice for the SDS party, give their vote for the

18 SDS.

19 Q. Do you recall anything else that was said at this rally?

20 A. I must admit that all the speeches were nationalistically intoned

21 and that already then one could discern a call for Serbs and Serbdom, an

22 appeal being made for them.

23 Q. Sir, I'd like to ask you some questions about the period after the

24 mobilisation in 1991. Did you have meetings with the mayor of Banja Luka?

25 A. Yes.

Page 4404

1 Q. Who was the mayor of Banja Luka, if you recall?

2 A. Mr. Predrag Radic.

3 Q. How often were these meetings held?

4 A. Once a week.

5 Q. What was the purpose of these meetings?

6 A. We reported on the problems we were encountering. He took note of

7 them, promising to take certain steps to eliminate those problems.

8 Q. Do you recall the time period these weekly meetings occurred in

9 1991?

10 A. The end of the summer.

11 Q. You said that you reported on the problems that you were

12 encountering. Can you tell the Court what sort of problems these were.

13 A. It was a difficult period in Banja Luka. People were mostly

14 losing their jobs or had already lost them. There was the problem of

15 shooting and violence by armed men that could not be explained. Then

16 there was a problem of all possible kinds of mobilisations that they

17 carried out. And we had to say what the difficulties were that we were

18 encountering in the parts of town in which we lived and worked.

19 Q. Where were these meetings held?

20 A. The first meeting was held in the premises of the local community.

21 The second meeting -- all the other meetings were held in the building of

22 the Municipal Assembly of Banja Luka.

23 Q. Who attended these meetings?

24 A. At the first meeting, there were representatives of the civilian,

25 the military, and police authorities. So representatives of the civilian

Page 4405

1 authorities, the military, and the police.

2 Q. The meetings that you had with Mr. Radic in the municipal assembly

3 building, who attended those meetings with you?

4 A. Do you wish the names of the people? Do you want me to give you

5 the names?

6 Q. What positions did these people hold?

7 A. People went to those meetings -- that someone believed to be

8 influential among the population in those parts of town. So there were

9 people of various backgrounds and occupation, ranging from manual workers

10 to engineers.

11 Q. How long did these meetings last in 1991?

12 A. For two, two and a half months.

13 Q. Were there any meetings held in 1992?

14 A. No. I apologise. That's a mistake. The meetings were in 1992,

15 in fact.

16 Q. I'm sorry. When did the meetings with Mr. Radic begin, the

17 meetings that lasted for two to three months? When did they begin?

18 A. In the summer of 1992.

19 Q. Sir, a moment ago I asked you about meetings that were -- that

20 occurred just after the mobilisation in 1991. You spoke briefly about one

21 meeting held in the local commune. And then you said that there were

22 further meetings with Mr. Radic held in the municipal assembly building.

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Where you reported on incidents and problems that were occurring.

25 Just so that I'm -- just so that it's clear, when did these meetings occur

Page 4406

1 with Mr. Radic?

2 A. At the end -- I may have made a mistake, but this is quite

3 certain. At the end of the summer of 1991.

4 Q. Thank you. Sir, did you see any soldiers when they returned --

5 oh, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Just going back to these meetings with Radic.

6 When you discussed the problems that you were having and you reported

7 several incidents that were occurring, what was Mr. Radic's response, if

8 you recall?

9 A. Mr. Radic promised every time that he would undertake all measures

10 to avoid such incidents. However, every meeting was like a repeat of the

11 previous one, and nothing was undertaken.

12 Q. Did he ask you to do or not do certain things?

13 A. Yes. He told us in the form of advice and told us to tell others

14 that we shouldn't be seen much in the streets, that we shouldn't gather in

15 groups, to avoid contacts with the Serb soldiers, in order to reduce the

16 risk and the possibility of conflict situations.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Sutherland, can we stop for about two or

18 three minutes, the time being until they change the tape, thank you.

19 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes, Your Honour.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Ms. Sutherland, you may go ahead. Thank you.

21 MS. SUTHERLAND: Thank you, Your Honour.

22 Q. Sir, just before we had a short break to change the tape, you said

23 that Mr. Radic told you that you shouldn't be seen much in the streets,

24 that you shouldn't gather in groups, to avoid contacts with Serb soldiers,

25 in order to reduce the risk and the possibility of conflict situations.

Page 4407

1 Who are the "we" that you're referring to?

2 A. He meant the Muslim population from the areas that we

3 represented.

4 Q. Sir, did you have any meetings with Mr. Radic in 1992?

5 A. No.

6 Q. And the question I began to ask you a moment ago: Did you see any

7 soldiers when they returned from the front in Croatia?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. What did you see them doing?

10 A. Well, at the time, Banja Luka was a town filled with shooting or

11 even worse than that, if we can say that. It was a town full of armed

12 people, lots of weapons, lots of upheavals, disorders. Everyone who was

13 able-bodied, young, they were mobilised. It was a town of soldiers.

14 Often they were drunk, and then they would fire on and on. In any case,

15 this disturbed the normal population in Banja Luka and brought in a lot of

16 discontent.

17 Q. Were they shooting at anything in particular?

18 A. They fired everywhere, if one can say that. Most favoured targets

19 were religious facilities, if they went through Muslim areas where there

20 were mosques, then they would start shooting ceaselessly. Those mosques,

21 all 16 of them, would later be destroyed. They fired at houses. They

22 fired at shops. These were savage acts of behaviour.

23 Q. I want to turn to another topic. Do you know the accused Radoslav

24 Brdjanin?

25 A. Yes.

Page 4408

1 Q. When did you first hear of Radoslav Brdjanin?

2 A. I heard about him before the SDS party was formed. And when he

3 arrived in Banja Luka, I learned some details about him, where he comes

4 from, who he is, and what he does.

5 Q. When was the first time you heard of Mr. Brdjanin?

6 A. I think that was in 1990.

7 Q. Did you ever see Mr. Brdjanin on television?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Do you recall what period of time that was?

10 A. He appeared on television often.

11 Q. Do you --

12 A. At first he was a deputy, I believe, in the Assembly of

13 Bosnia-Herzegovina. He was in the Assembly of the Serbian people. He was

14 a Serb delegate, a Serb deputy. So he was often seen on TV and heard on

15 the radio and appeared in the press.

16 Q. When was the --

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Please ask the witness to place this within a time

18 frame.

19 MS. SUTHERLAND: That was my next question, sir.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Because that was also included in your previous

21 question, but he didn't answer it. Thank you.

22 MS. SUTHERLAND:

23 Q. Sir, what time frame did you see Mr. Brdjanin on television?

24 A. In 1990, 1991, 1992.

25 Q. In relation to the period that you saw Mr. Brdjanin on -- how

Page 4409

1 many -- sorry. How many times did you see Mr. Brdjanin on television in

2 1991?

3 A. I cannot give you the precise date. On several occasions.

4 Q. What was the nature of the programmes that you saw him on in

5 1991?

6 A. He was often a guest on TV, and he would then make speeches. And

7 some of the kind of speeches that he gave would absolutely terrify all

8 non-Serbs in Bosnia and even elsewhere. These were mostly political

9 speeches.

10 Q. Can you tell the Chamber what sort of speeches these were. What

11 was the content of the speeches?

12 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I don't know that we have a time frame

13 for this particular question. And I'd ask that it be restricted to that

14 time period which is relevant to the indictment.

15 MS. SUTHERLAND:

16 Q. Witness --

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Ackerman is right, Ms. Sutherland. Please

18 regulate your question or rephrase it. You can even be very specific and

19 direct the witness in this regard.

20 MS. SUTHERLAND:

21 Q. Witness, in 1992 can you please tell the Court the nature of the

22 speeches that you heard Mr. Brdjanin give on television at that time.

23 A. I said beginning, that these were political speeches. And they

24 were intoned in such a way that the Serbs were being called to unite, to

25 fight the aggressor, to triumph in combat operations, and there were also

Page 4410

1 matters in everyday life.

2 Q. Is there anything specific that you remember Mr. Brdjanin saying?

3 A. From his discussions, people cannot forget some terrifying,

4 humiliating remarks. Almost unbelievable. He said, for instance, that

5 Muslims were not a people, that they were nothing. He used to sometimes

6 call us "Turks" or "those who became Turks." He would speak of a town.

7 At that time, they were already calling it a state. They were talking

8 about only 2 or 3 per cent of Muslims. It was terrifying.

9 And then that he would then let the Muslims do the hardest types

10 of work and how can anyone speak -- that this was a man who was saying

11 that he would destroy all those in mixed marriages and their children.

12 How could I accept this when I, in my own family, I have Serbs and we have

13 children from mixed marriages. Such things cannot be forgotten. They're

14 even hard to pronounce.

15 Q. Did you hear -- sorry. Did you see anyone else on television,

16 giving similar sorts of speeches to Mr. Brdjanin -- to that of

17 Mr. Brdjanin?

18 A. In 1991, 1992 almost all those who spoke on television they gave

19 such speeches that they're hard to imagine by anyone who is normal.

20 Q. Sir, if I can direct your attention to the time period 1992. Do

21 you recall the names of anyone else you heard -- you saw on the

22 television, making similar speeches to that of Mr. Brdjanin?

23 A. As far as I'm concerned, I was greatly surprised by Professor Gugo

24 Lazarevic, which even today I find hard to comprehend that he used to be a

25 professor of mine. And there are others.

Page 4411

1 Q. Can you name them?

2 A. Most frequently, they were representatives of the military and the

3 civilian authorities.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Can you name them? This was your question.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Among others, Mr. Radic, Mr. Vukic.

6 MS. SUTHERLAND:

7 Q. Who was Mr. Vukic?

8 A. Mr. Vukic was at first the representative of the SDS party.

9 Otherwise, he's a gynaecologist in Banja Luka.

10 Then there was Mr. Milanovic. He's also a doctor from Banja Luka.

11 And many others.

12 Q. Do you recall, if anything, what Dr. Vukic said?

13 A. One thing that remained with me, when he said through laughter, as

14 a joke, that he would not charge for an abortion on any -- from any -- on

15 any Muslim woman so that there would be fewer and fewer Muslims. This

16 left a deep impression on me.

17 Q. Did you ever hear Radoslav Brdjanin on the radio in 1992?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Do you recall how many times you heard him?

20 A. Not many times, but I did hear him. I did listen to him, because

21 I believe he was a favourite of Nikola Deretic, who came, as far as I

22 know, from Prijedor, and he was a speaker on radio, a newscaster, and he

23 became a journalist. And I believe that he was pushing Mr. Brdjanin.

24 Q. Do you recall the nature of what Mr. Brdjanin said on the radio?

25 A. Mr. Brdjanin often spoke about the situation on the front. He

Page 4412

1 spoke of some borders and establishing new states, about the division of

2 Bosnia-Herzegovina and such like. The strangest thing was when he was

3 determining the borders, and he kept talking about Greater Serbia. So I

4 was always amazed if it was possible that an intellectual could speak of

5 such things or imagine such things. Had he ever heard of history? That

6 left a deep impression on me.

7 Q. Do you recall reading anything in newspapers which Mr. Brdjanin

8 had said?

9 A. Yes, I did. I did read.

10 Q. During -- I'm sorry. During 1992 --

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. -- what do you recall reading?

13 A. In 1992, yes. For instance, how he was able to be ironic when he

14 was asked, "Could now the Muslims who have remained, who are loyal

15 citizens, could these Muslims have managing posts?" And he said, "No."

16 See, these Muslims are now reading Politika, they're reading a Serbian

17 newspaper. And his ironic answer was, "Yes, because it is the best

18 newspaper." These are the kind of conversations that were held by Mr.

19 Brdjanin.

20 Q. I want to now ask you some questions in relation to SOS.

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. What does "SOS" stand for?

23 A. Serb defence forces.

24 Q. When was the first time you saw SOS in Banja Luka?

25 A. For the first time, I saw SOS members in the summer of 1991.

Page 4413

1 Q. How were they dressed?

2 A. They had military uniforms on, and they had red berets on.

3 Q. Where did you see them?

4 A. Camouflage uniforms. I saw them for the first time in front of

5 the municipality building.

6 Q. Did you have any personal encounter with the SOS?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. When was this?

9 A. They came to see me, and they transformed, so to speak, into

10 blackmailers. They came to see me in the summer. And they asked -- they

11 wanted to be my protection force -- protection force that I would have to

12 pay for. They did this with many others, many other owners of shops and

13 businesses in Banja Luka who were non-Serbs. From me, to start with, they

14 asked for 1.000 Deutschmarks.

15 Q. Did you take them up on their offer?

16 A. No. I thanked them, and I said that I was satisfied with the

17 situation as it was.

18 Q. Sir, do you recall seeing a red van in Banja Luka?

19 A. Yes, very often.

20 Q. When was the first time you saw this red van?

21 A. I think that was in 1992. But before it, there were others who

22 had the same task as the red van.

23 Q. You said you think it was in 1992. Can you be more specific in

24 relation to the month?

25 A. It was -- I'm certain that it was in the spring. I'm certain

Page 4414

1 about the red van in the spring.

2 Q. Who were the persons involved with this van?

3 A. Do you want names?

4 Q. If you are able, yes.

5 A. Those were policemen, were members who were in the army centre in

6 Banja Luka. And among them, as far as I knew and also according to the

7 experiences of other people, there was Bosko Vuksan. With them also was

8 Riza. That's what his nickname was. I don't know his real name. He

9 was from Karanovac. And then there was Zuco. They addressed each other

10 by nickname, so we did not know their real names. I know that Zuco came

11 from the Rudarska Street, that he was a small businessman, and that he

12 made tombstones. And they often switched in their groups, and I know one

13 whose last name was Knezevic.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Ms. Sutherland, I think we have to stop here for the

15 time being. We have a break. We will resume at quarter to 5.00. Thank

16 you.

17 --- Recess taken at 4.14 p.m.

18 --- On resuming at 4.47 p.m.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Sutherland, you may proceed. Thank you.

20 MS. SUTHERLAND: Thank you, Your Honour.

21 Q. Sir, just before we broke, you mentioned several names who -- of

22 people who were involved with this red van. What did you see these people

23 doing?

24 A. The red van, like the other vans in Banja Luka, represented the

25 greatest evil, especially this red van which was synonymous with fear for

Page 4415

1 the non-Serbs. They went literally from house to house. They carried out

2 searches. They arrested people in the streets. They beat people until

3 they were unconscious. They would take them into custody into the former

4 army centre. Others to the Mali Logor. They would round people up in the

5 street or from their homes. Usually, in addition to weapons, they carried

6 wooden baseball bats with which they beat people.

7 Q. How were they dressed? I'm sorry. How were they dressed?

8 A. They were dressed in blue camouflage uniforms.

9 Q. You said they rounded up people in the street or from their

10 homes. Can you name anybody --

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. -- that you saw being picked up by this red van?

13 A. An unlimited number, if necessary. Do you want the names?

14 Q. Please.

15 A. Ismet Rakovic, Angijad Gunic, Fahret Redzepovic, Reuf Gunic,

16 (redacted), Jasmin Hrnic. Do you want some more?

17 Q. Of the people you've just named, which of these people did you

18 personally see being picked up by the red van?

19 A. I intentionally listed all the people that I saw. As for those I

20 heard about and whom I saw after the beating, as I said, the list would be

21 endless. If you wish me to give you the names, I'll do so.

22 Q. If we can just deal with the people that you've mentioned to begin

23 with. Were these people picked up individually or in a group?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Which?

Page 4416

1 A. It depended on the time and the place. If they were looking for

2 them in the houses, then they would take them one by one. If they caught

3 them by surprise in the street, then they would arrest several at the same

4 time.

5 Q. Can you just describe for the Court what happened when you saw

6 these people being picked up.

7 A. They would throw them into the car while beating them. And this

8 is Jasmin, [redacted], and they opened the door of the van and started

9 beating them so fiercely that people were screaming with pain to produce a

10 better effect and for them to achieve their goal, which in my opinion was

11 intimidation and expulsion of the non-Serb population. They would open

12 the back door of the van so that these screams and cries could be heard

13 outside for people to see it.

14 Q. What were the condition of these people after they had left the

15 red van?

16 A. All the people who came out of the red van were visibly, visibly

17 beaten up, with swellings and bruises. They could move with difficulty.

18 They could hardly move at all after a certain amount of time. They would

19 urinate blood, most of these people who were beaten up. It was horrible.

20 It was horrible.

21 Q. Did these people tell you that?

22 A. As these were [redacted], and it is customary and normal for

23 such people to be visited, quite a number of them were not very well off.

24 So I felt it my duty to take them some fruit juice, coffee, or something

25 to eat. And anyway, I would have visited them.

Page 4417

1 Q. How often was this occurring, people being picked up by the red

2 van?

3 A. They would come to our neighbourhood almost every day. Sometimes

4 several times during the day.

5 Q. Were people also being picked up in this red van from the centre

6 of town?

7 A. When they were at the market, for instance, which is in the centre

8 of town, then they would carry out so-called raids, which would be quick

9 searches of Muslims, or rather, non-Serbs, because they treated the Croats

10 and all others in the same way, to see whether they had the appropriate

11 documents allowing them movement in town. If they didn't have those

12 permissions for movement, then those people would be rounded up and taken

13 away. And this also happened very frequently.

14 Q. You mentioned a moment ago that you also heard about others who

15 were picked up by this red van. Can you name them, please?

16 A. I can. As I know the people [redacted], I will go in

17 this order. Fahret Redzepovic, Angijad Gunic, Armin Gunic, Dzevad Sistek,

18 Ibrahim Gunic, Hanzalija Gunic, Bernard [phoen] Gunic, Samir Asic, Rokic

19 -- Samir Trokic. I apologise. Asic is Asmir, Asmir is the first name.

20 And Samir Trokic. Reuf Gunic, Sefket Tulek, Mukic -- Sead Omukic.

21 Q. All of these people that you either saw or heard being picked up

22 in the van, what was their ethnicity?

23 A. [redacted]

24 [redacted]. And all those who were arrested and beaten up were Muslims.

25 Q. If you know, were people also taken to coffee bars in this red

Page 4418

1 van?

2 A. Yes. If I can put it that way, they organised orgies, one could

3 say. This gave them pleasure. Our pain gave them pleasure. And I

4 remember an example, when in Gornji Seher, in a coffee bar called Cobanin,

5 or "shepherd," they brought in young men they had picked up in Novoselija,

6 and they demanded that Jasmin Hrnic climb up on a table. They gave him a

7 beer bottle instead of a microphone for him to use and sing Serbian songs.

8 And then a few moments later, they would push him off the table and step

9 all over him. They were simply taking their pleasure in this way.

10 Q. Who owned this coffee bar?

11 A. The owner -- earlier on, this was a shop, and then it was changed

12 to a coffee bar and the owner was a Serb, a few kilometres away from

13 Seher. I think he comes from the village of Bukvalek.

14 Q. Did you have any personal experiences with this van?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Can you explain to the Court your experience.

17 A. Yes. This was in the autumn of 1992 -- no, the winter. There was

18 snow on the ground. When in my yard, seven of them arrived, led by Bosko

19 Vuksan. They entered the house, and that they just said that they wanted

20 to look for something. Among them --

21 Q. If you could just pause there for a moment.

22 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

23 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, Ms. Sutherland.

24 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Sorry about that, Ms. Sutherland, but -- sorry about

Page 4419

1 that, Ms. Sutherland, but it was important. Please proceed. Thank you.

2 MS. SUTHERLAND: Thank you, Your Honour.

3 Q. Sir, you were explaining to the Court your experience with the red

4 van. And you said that seven persons had arrived, led by Bosko Vuksan,

5 and they had entered your house. Can you continue.

6 A. Yes. A person that they addressed as Komandir, he was sitting

7 down and the others were standing. He assigned two of them to search the

8 ground floor level and that two of them go with my wife to examine the

9 shop. He said to them to pay attention to letters, literature, books,

10 weapons and to look closely into the bedrooms to see what was being read

11 at night, which they did.

12 Q. Were you ordered to do anything?

13 A. They said that they had come to carry out an examination and also

14 on the basis of a document that they had found in the house of Bajazit

15 Jahic. And on this document, there was a list of members of the Party of

16 Democratic Action. And he ordered me to go with them to show

17 them these addresses. I think that this part of our contact was a

18 provocation. What they wanted was (redacted) to see me in the red van,

19 to see me as an associate of theirs, as a collaborator who was assisting

20 the Serbs in carrying out something ugly. They showed me a list, and I

21 had to go with them to point out the houses, one by one. When my wife

22 asked them -- asked Vuksan not to take me away, he said, "Don't be afraid.

23 He'll be back." And indeed, I had to do what I considered to be

24 a nasty piece of business. I had to take them from one house to the

25 next.

Page 4420

1 Q. What happened when you pointed out certain houses?

2 A. They would leave me in the van with the door open so that everyone

3 could see me. They started from Izmet Gunic. They wanted his house

4 first. And then Hazira Gunic's. Then they were looking for Samir

5 Barucija, Buzdalek Sefket, and the younger Gazic, Sead's son. I

6 don't know the young man's name. I can't remember.

7 Q. Once you pointed out these houses, what happened?

8 A. They would leave me, as I said, in the van with the door open, and

9 they would enter, with those bats, into the houses. I don't dare say

10 anything. They didn't bring the men out, but according to what I heard

11 after when I was released to go home, the same story was repeated. They

12 would break the glass, the paintings on the walls, and couple this with

13 threats: "Why aren't you going away? Why aren't you moving out? What

14 are you waiting for?"

15 Q. Sir, in 1992, did you ever go to the SUP?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Do you recall when this occurred?

18 A. In the summer of 1992.

19 Q. Why did you attend the SUP?

20 A. I received a summons to report to SUP. Nothing was stated on this

21 document as to the reason why, but in those, days there were checkpoints.

22 We called them checkpoints. There were -- they were places with Serb

23 police there and some sort of guards. At first, they wore the uniforms of

24 the Yugoslav People's Army and, later on, camouflage uniforms. They had

25 different uniforms. No one could come or leave --

Page 4421

1 Q. I'm sorry, sir. When you got to the SUP, were you interviewed?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. What were you interviewed about?

4 A. Two police inspectors -- at least, that is how they addressed

5 them -- took me in to Mr. Drago Samardzija's office, a man I knew from

6 before. And they asked me where my vehicles were and why I hadn't

7 delivered them earlier on and why I hadn't responded to an earlier call.

8 And I explained that I couldn't pass through the checkpoints. So simply,

9 he asked and demanded where my vehicles were, which were needed by

10 Republika Srpska for their army.

11 Q. What did you tell him is this?

12 A. I told him, literally, what we have just corrected in my

13 statement, and that is that I only have the Mercedes -- that I only had

14 the Mercedes which I had handed over to the police when they came to my

15 house and drove it off, and I took out of my pocket, as I'm doing now, a

16 certificate which I received certifying that my vehicle had been

17 confiscated.

18 Q. Is that receipt dated?

19 A. If you wish to look at it, I haven't -- I didn't see the date.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Usher. [Microphone not activated] Let us see it

21 first.

22 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, Your Honour.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Sorry. Let's see it first.

24 [Trial Chamber confers]

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Can you show it to Ms. Sutherland, please, and then

Page 4422

1 afterwards to both Defence teams, please.

2 Ms. Sutherland, do you have a copy -- does the Prosecution have a

3 copy of that receipt.

4 MS. SUTHERLAND: No, Your Honour.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: May I ask you to -- pardon?

6 Yes. But first I would like to know whether the Prosecution wants

7 a copy of that receipt to be tendered as an exhibit.

8 MS. SUTHERLAND: No, Your Honour.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you.

10 Yes, Madam Fauveau.

11 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I think that

12 the Defence will use this document, so could we have copies of it,

13 please.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Can we have copies made of that document. But

15 it is not being tendered as an exhibit as yet.

16 MR. ACKERMAN: May I look at it -- I'm sorry. May I look at it

17 one more time, Your Honour?

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, certainly.

19 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] I realise that it won't be

20 tendered, but we may do it during the cross-examination.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. The position is as follows: The document will

22 be handed back to the witness. Obviously the witness has made it

23 available to the Chamber and to the parties. And that entitles the

24 Chamber to have copies made of that document, which obviously we can make

25 use of in the course of the cross-examination. That applies to the

Page 4423

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

Page 4424

1 Prosecution as well, both at this stage and as well in the re-examination

2 case.

3 Sir, may I ask you to -- in case we don't finish with your

4 testimony today, may I ask you to bring that document with you tomorrow,

5 please.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you.

8 Ms. Sutherland.

9 MS. SUTHERLAND: Thank you, Your Honour.

10 Q. Sir, do you recall the month that your Mercedes was confiscated?

11 A. To tell you the truth, I don't recall. I don't know. There is no

12 date on the document, but I know it was summer. It was warm.

13 Q. Your signature appears on that document, does it not?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Can you tell the Court who the other signature belongs to.

16 A. Before I tell you, I have to tell you that the -- when the vehicle

17 was taken, the people who came to get it, as far as I know they were

18 working on the security in the town.

19 Q. If I could just pause there, sir --

20 A. And they were --

21 Q. I will ask you questions about that in a moment, but I asked you:

22 Can you tell the Court who the other signature is on that document.

23 A. On this place of the signature, that was the director of Blik, who

24 was the director of the company -- a clothes company, a retail -- they

25 were making uniforms for the army, for the Serbian army. He was a new

Page 4425

1 person. I don't know him from before. He had a large beard. And he was

2 short and dark. He did not introduce himself. But because of the

3 protocol, he had to sign it, because I asked for the certificate that my

4 vehicle was confiscated, and he then placed his signature there.

5 Q. Can you now describe for the Court how your vehicle was

6 confiscated and the persons involved in that confiscation.

7 A. They came between 2.00 and 4.00 p.m. I'm not quite certain when.

8 It was sometime in the afternoon. And they said that they needed the

9 vehicle for the new director of Blik --

10 Q. Excuse me.

11 A. -- who was appointed.

12 Q. I'm sorry to keep interrupting you. You said "they came between

13 2.00 and 4.00 p.m.." Do you recall the names of the people who attended

14 at your house?

15 A. Of course. Before that, I met this policeman whose name was

16 Crnobrnja. And he was accompanied by a short policeman. He was more

17 working like a car mechanic, or better to the point he knew about cars.

18 And his nickname was Srbo. And Crnobrnja told him that he should

19 prepare the vehicle and to start the engine. And the third person was the

20 director.

21 Q. Do you know where this Crnobrnja -- I'm sorry for my

22 pronunciation -- do you know where he worked?

23 A. Crnobrnja worked as a member of the unit that was located in the

24 factory of a leather produce. And the director was Sulejman Deumic. They

25 made leather and fur items.

Page 4426

1 Q. Do you recall the first name of this person called Crnobrnja --

2 I'm sorry.

3 A. I don't know exactly his first name, but his last name is

4 definitely Crnobrnja. He used to be a waiter, and he was a newcomer to

5 Banja Luka.

6 Q. When you were questioned in the police station about your car, and

7 you told them that it had -- your Mercedes had already been confiscated,

8 what happened then?

9 A. Mr. Samardzija said that he knew about the Mercedes, but he also

10 said that I had a Peugeot car, a luxury car, and I also had three

11 Volkswagen vans and that it was my duty to hand them over as soon as

12 possible for the needs of the Serb army.

13 Q. And you mentioned earlier that you told these people that these

14 vehicles were being used by other persons; is that correct?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. What was their reaction to this?

17 A. Samardzija, unfortunately, shouted at me. And he said, "You're

18 lying. You have all the vehicles." I tried to explain to him that the

19 Peugeot car was driven by my elder brother and that one of the Volkswagen

20 vans --

21 Q. Excuse me. I'm sorry, Witness. Don't mention the name of the

22 other people, because that will -- may reveal your identity. If the Court

23 or Defence want you to name that person, then we can go into private

24 session.

25 A. Thank you. So what I said was that one vehicle had been sold,

Page 4427

1 that the second vehicle had been destroyed by the machine-gun bursts of

2 Serb soldiers, and the third one was not in working order. But he did not

3 believe me.

4 Q. Sir.

5 A. And already then they started to --

6 Q. Carry on.

7 A. They started to beat me, first on my face and then later all over

8 my body. It was a terrible feeling of helplessness. I was put on a round

9 stool in the middle of this room, and these two people whom they called

10 inspectors, they were standing each on my sides, they flanked me, and any

11 answer of mine that didn't suit them, they would beat me. And the hardest

12 ones to bear was in the -- in the knees and in that area here. And if one

13 of them knocked me to the ground, then the other one would lift me up, and

14 then the other one would do the same for his colleague. It was absolutely

15 horrific. I asked Samardzija to give me protection. I thought he knew

16 me. But no help came.

17 Q. Sir, how long did this beating last?

18 A. For a long time. For a long time.

19 Q. What injuries did you suffer as a result of the beating?

20 A. My teeth were broken, and here I think you can still see the

21 traces of strangulation. I would feel it in my mouth. I would feel the

22 teeth that were broken in my mouth. It was horrible.

23 Q. Sir, just pause there.

24 MS. SUTHERLAND: For the record, the witness is pointing to his

25 throat.

Page 4428

1 THE WITNESS: Yes.

2 MS. SUTHERLAND:

3 Q. Sir, do you know a person called Jovan Sovilj?

4 A. Yes, I do.

5 Q. In 1992, did you know what his occupation was?

6 A. According to him, he was a deputy commander for security in the

7 town. And he was based in Deumici [phoen], in his factory.

8 Q. Did you know who his commander was?

9 A. His commander was Mr. Stevandic. I think his first name was

10 Dusan. Certainly it was Stevandic. He was blond. He was a large man.

11 MS. SUTHERLAND: Can the witness please be shown Prosecution

12 Exhibit 537. This is the document provided in B/C/S with two pages of

13 translation.

14 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Fauveau.

16 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] The Defence of General

17 Talic objects to these documents because they do not bear any dates.

18 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, I'm sorry. Before I respond to

19 Madam Fauveau, if this document can be marked Prosecution Exhibit P538.

20 I'm sorry.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Not 537?

22 MS. SUTHERLAND: No. There's been another exhibit premarked 537.

23 In response to Madam Fauveau, this document is undated; however,

24 the Prosecution intend having a witness date this document somewhere

25 between June and October 1992. This document comes -- was seized from the

Page 4429

1 Banja Luka Corps, and it was disclosed to the Defence on the 2nd of

2 August, 2000. The Prosecution intends obtaining a full translation of

3 this document, but at this stage we only have the front cover and page 7

4 translated.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. The Chamber is admitting the document, both in

6 the B/C/S version and in the English version, because the fact that it is

7 undated does not automatically exclude its admissibility in evidence,

8 subject, of course, to further proof which may result in establishing the

9 date for this document, and with the understanding, if there is the need

10 for it --

11 Mr. Ackerman, and Madam Fauveau, this is on the face of it a list

12 of individual members of the group of Light Infantry Brigades. And all it

13 shows is the name and the rank. Is it important for you to -- and the

14 office. Is it important for you to have it completely translated in its

15 entirety, or -- because I understand that there are words which are

16 recurring, for example, pukovnik, and Komandant, and Nacelnik staba

17 [phoen]. If those are translated, that should be enough?

18 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I'm really not in a position to do

19 much more than shrug my shoulders at this point because I don't know what

20 it is, I don't know what the Prosecution intends to do with it, I don't

21 know what the Prosecution intends that it stands for or anything.

22 Obviously, I have not been able to read it.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Leave it --

24 MR. ACKERMAN: I'll leave it at that. Chances are I don't have

25 any objection, but I just don't know.

Page 4430

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Anyway, Ms. Sutherland, you will consult further

2 with the Defence teams. Should a proper, complete translation of this

3 document be required, then go ahead with it, as you are required to do by

4 the Rules. Otherwise, if there is an indication of the meaning in English

5 and in French of the various porucnik, kapetan, pukovnik, so that we

6 understand what we are looking for -- are looking at, then it should be

7 enough.

8 MS. SUTHERLAND: Thank you, Your Honour. We do intend having the

9 entire document translated.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Translated. Yes, thank you.

11 MS. SUTHERLAND:

12 Q. Sir, do you have that document in front of you?

13 A. Yes.

14 MS. SUTHERLAND: If the B/C/S version could be put on -- sorry,

15 the English translation could be put on the ELMO.

16 Q. Could you read the title of the document, please.

17 A. "Overview of individual members of the group of the 4th Banja Luka

18 Light Infantry Brigade."

19 Q. Does it continue? I'm sorry. Can you read the front page, the

20 cover page.

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. The front page?

23 A. You mean --

24 Q. The front page of the document. Thank you.

25 A. "Military secret. Strictly confidential. Overview of individual

Page 4431

1 members of the -- of the command of the Light Infantry Brigade -- Light

2 Infantry Brigades, brigade commands, battalion commanders, company

3 commanders, and of independent platoons," with the code 01302583. And

4 then there is the initials K.K.

5 Q. Sir, can you just turn to page 7 of that document. Sir, the ERN

6 number on that document is 01302589.

7 A. Yes. Yes, you don't have the page numbers.

8 Q. Can you read the title of that page, please.

9 A. Yes. "Military secret. Strictly confidential. Overview of

10 individual members of the 4th Banja Luka Light Infantry Brigade command."

11 Q. Can you read the name at number -- next to the number 1.

12 A. Number 1, Dusan Stevandic.

13 Q. What is his rank?

14 A. He's a major.

15 Q. And what is his office?

16 A. He's a commander.

17 Q. Can you read the name next to number 4, please.

18 A. Jovan Sovilj.

19 Q. What is his rank?

20 A. This should be sergeant, first class.

21 Q. And what is his office?

22 A. Intelligence and security commander. Intelligence and security

23 commander.

24 Q. Can you also read the name at number 22.

25 A. Yes. Number 22, that's the person, Milorad Crnobrnja, sergeant.

Page 4432

1 He was a commander of the platoon command.

2 Q. This last name that you just read, is that last name the same as

3 the -- one of the people that came with you when your -- that came the day

4 your car was confiscated?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. You testified earlier that when they came to confiscate your car,

7 they said that it was for the use of the military.

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Did they say which unit in particular?

10 A. They said that this was needed for the director of the company

11 that was making military equipment for the Serb army, and he was

12 personally present at that time.

13 Q. Thank you.

14 MS. SUTHERLAND: If that document can be returned to the

15 registry.

16 Q. Sir, I now want to ask you some questions in relation to a murder

17 that you witnessed.

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. In 1992. Do you recall when this occurred?

20 A. On the 5th of December, 1992.

21 Q. How are you aware of -- how do you recall the exact date?

22 A. I spoke to the wife of the killed Avdo Softic, and she

23 established the date for me, which was the 5th of December, 1992, and I

24 stand by that date.

25 Q. Where did this murder occur?

Page 4433

1 A. The murder occurred in the immediate vicinity of the house of the

2 murdered, Avdo Softic.

3 Q. Was anyone else killed on that day?

4 A. This happened in the street -- Avdo Gazic Street or Gozic Street.

5 And the person who was killed was Ramiz Zdenac.

6 Q. Can you describe for the Court what happened on that day in

7 relation to that incident.

8 A. Because of the situation that we found ourselves in, we were

9 forced to walk along a side road which we called Stari Put, "old road",

10 and this is where we hid from the main road, so that we wouldn't have any

11 contact with the Serb army. And in order to avoid any unpleasant

12 situations.

13 That night, it was a complete surprise for all of us who found

14 ourselves on that road. There was an armed Serb soldier who passed on

15 that road. It was the first time that one of them used that street. He

16 didn't say hello to us. He didn't greet us, although we knew him. But we

17 were all surprised. We were surprised that he was there. After a few

18 moments, shooting was heard. First there was a short burst and then a

19 long burst. There was panic, and I thought that if the shooting

20 continued, that this was directed at me, because I had been informed

21 before -- several Serbs had told me that I was on the list for

22 elimination. So I lay down alongside a fence. And after a short while, I

23 heard somebody asking for help. Avdo Softic was shouting for help but not

24 to help himself but Ramiz to be helped, and he said about himself, "I am

25 finished." We ran to Ramiz. And at that time when I came round, the

Page 4434

1 shooting had stopped and I saw the murderer, who was walking away in haste

2 from the site. And the late Ramiz started to slide down the fence. Avdo

3 was on the ground on the other side, perhaps a few metres away from him.

4 It was obvious -- it was visible with Ramiz that he could not be helped.

5 There was blood in the chest area. And the only thing that we could hear

6 was the gurgling of a man who was dying. There was terrible panic among

7 us, all of us who were standing nearby. We ran towards them to help them.

8 It was that kind of situation when the words fail you. It is hard to

9 describe.

10 And somebody suggested that we should call -- that was -- that

11 person was Omer Saranic. He had a small Fiat vehicle. And he was asked

12 to take Avdo Softic to the hospital. When we put him in the car, it was

13 obvious that he was finished. In the stomach area and the lower part of

14 his body was all covered in blood, but he was still conscious. He knew

15 and he was able to speak. But when Omer speeded up to the hospital, he

16 died on the way.

17 Q. Sir, you said that you knew the perpetrator. What was his name?

18 A. The man's name was Zeljko Ceko.

19 Q. How did you --

20 A. He lived --

21 Q. Go on.

22 A. He lived in the immediate vicinity of our neighbourhood, maybe a

23 kilometre away. Some people called the area Brda and others Novoselija.

24 Q. What were Avdo and Ramiz wearing, if you recall?

25 A. Ordinary civilian clothes.

Page 4435

1 Q. Were they armed?

2 A. No. I think that in 1992, and later too, a Muslim with weapons

3 would be tantamount to suicide. That is my opinion.

4 Q. Did you see Avdo or Ramiz doing anything to provoke the soldier

5 before he fired?

6 A. I already said that we had passed on to our people instructions as

7 to how they should behave, that they shouldn't provoke anyone, that they

8 shouldn't engage in any disputes or any contacts. And especially in this

9 case, these were two exceptionally quiet, good, and honest men, so that

10 any provocation is out of the question.

11 MS. SUTHERLAND: Excuse me, Your Honour.

12 [Prosecution counsel confer]

13 MS. SUTHERLAND:

14 Q. Sir, did you notice what sort of weapon Ceko was wearing?

15 A. Ceko had, in my view, a long rifle, a rifle -- it may have been a

16 light machine-gun. I think it was a rifle or a submachine-gun.

17 Q. To your knowledge, do you know whether any -- whether there have

18 been any proceedings in relation to this incident?

19 A. I inquired everywhere as to what had been done against this

20 criminal; however, all I know is that he was taken in for questioning as

21 he was on leave, allegedly that his punishment was that he had to go to

22 the front, which we, in those days, found unbelievable because he was

23 already at the front. So that I believe to this day and I claim that I

24 saw him after that crime, passing by. He was not sentenced. If going to

25 the front line is punishment, according to them, he had already been

Page 4436

1 punished and not for this particular case.

2 Q. Sir, I now want to turn to another topic and ask you some

3 questions about life in Banja Luka during 1992 for non-Serbs. Can you

4 describe for the Court the atmosphere in Banja Luka at this time.

5 A. I can only do my best. But to really describe the situation of

6 hunger, fear, killings, shooting, and everything else that is not deign of

7 a civilised man, that is what Banja Luka was like. People were left

8 jobless earlier on. All the people who refused to respond to the call-up

9 for mobilisation and who refused to take part in the Serb army were

10 automatically dismissed. People were left jobless, and they needed to

11 feed their families, their children. And as time went by, the situation

12 became worse and worse. People were left without homes. All it took was

13 a Serb fighter to point a finger at an apartment that he wanted for that

14 apartment to become his. Fear.

15 Q. Sir, could you travel freely outside Banja Luka?

16 A. No one could move around freely - I think I said that at the

17 beginning when I mentioned those checkpoints - who did not have the

18 appropriate permit. These were issued at first by local communes and then

19 later by the military department, which meant that all those who were fit

20 to serve either had to go to the front lines or to leave Banja Luka.

21 There was no freedom of movement. Who refused to go to the front line, he

22 actually sentenced himself to detention.

23 Q. When did your -- when did family members -- your family members

24 leave Banja Luka?

25 A. My daughter left in September 1992.

Page 4437

1 Q. Why did she leave?

2 A. At the time, there were stories about terrible crimes being

3 committed by those Serb troops; among other things, rape. I had --

4 Q. How did she leave Banja Luka?

5 A. I was afraid of this rape that was being mentioned all over the

6 place, because my daughter was beautiful and young. Unfortunately, her

7 youth was taken away from her and her work and everything else.

8 Q. Sir, how did your daughter come to leave Banja Luka?

9 A. In Banja Luka -- I can't call them enterprises or firms or what

10 they were that were formed in Banja Luka for the resettlement of non-Serbs

11 from Banja Luka. These were organisations that had their own buses or

12 rented those buses, I don't know exactly, but one such organisation

13 existed in Mejdan, across the River Vrbas, as we would put it.

14 Q. That's the Mejdan settlement.

15 A. The Mejdan settlement, or neighbourhood, where there was an

16 organisation for the transport of non-Serbs. This organisation was headed

17 by a lady called Perka. I don't know what her surname was. Her name was

18 Perka. And daily there would be up to a thousand people there, waiting in

19 line and applying and begging to be taken out. Then there was an

20 organisation with the Red Cross, another one in Budzak. And later, I

21 heard there were others as well.

22 Q. Sir, your son and wife left in April 1993; is that correct?

23 A. Correct, yes.

24 Q. Why didn't you leave with your -- with your son and wife at that

25 time?

Page 4438

1 A. I will have to admit I was sorry -- of everything I had as a

2 result of very hard work, and I was sorry to leave it.

3 Q. When did you leave Banja Luka?

4 A. Through the mediation of international organisation, the UNHCR, I

5 was taken out on the 15th of November, 1993.

6 Q. Why did you decide to leave Banja Luka at that time?

7 A. It was my assessment that it was high time. And after all the

8 beatings, persecution, and the worst was in September 1993 when among the

9 Serbs, there was some kind of a rebellion in the Serb army and we the

10 people of Banja Luka felt the effects very well.

11 Q. Sir.

12 A. It was an operation that was known as --

13 Q. Can you just finish that sentence.

14 A. "Black September."

15 Q. Were you taken in the red van to the JNA Dom and severely beaten

16 whilst you were there?

17 A. I was taken in a police car to the old JNA Dom, or club. And if

18 you believe me -- and I can swear to that -- from the top of my head to my

19 big toe, I was black.

20 Q. What month was this in 1993, if you recall?

21 A. I already said, September, because the operation was called "Black

22 September."

23 Q. Sir, I just want to ask you one question about the red van. Was

24 it common knowledge that what this -- what was happening in relation to

25 this van? Was it common knowledge in Banja Luka what was happening to the

Page 4439

1 non-Serbs?

2 A. I dare to say today the worst evil of Banja Luka for the non-Serb

3 population was the red van. They destroyed so many young lives, expelled

4 so many people that the red van will go down in history -- in the history

5 of our people. And I believe that we should recount the story to young --

6 our young generations. It is a horror. It is impossible.

7 Q. Sir.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: We need to stop for a couple of minutes.

9 MS. SUTHERLAND: Can I just ask one more question, Your Honour.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: We need to stop for a couple of minutes to have the

11 tape changed, because otherwise whatever you ask will not be recorded

12 anyway.

13 MS. SUTHERLAND: Thank you.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Ms. Sutherland, you may proceed. Thank you.

15 MS. SUTHERLAND: Thank you, Your Honour.

16 Q. In relation to the red kombi, was it common knowledge in 1992 what

17 was happening to the non-Serbs with this van?

18 A. All the people of Banja Luka, the non-Serbs knew what evil the red

19 van stood for. I've already said once. People fled. One's blood froze.

20 There was so much fear and panic that it is hard to describe.

21 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, I have decided that I now wish to

22 tender the receipt. If that could be marked as Prosecution Exhibit number

23 P540.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Ms. Sutherland, there is obviously not going to be

25 any major problems with that, except that I think we have to acknowledge