1 Friday, 26 April 2002

2 [Open session]

3 --- Upon commencing at 2.23 p.m.

4 [The accused entered court]

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Please be seated.

6 Could you call the case, please. Thank you.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. This is the case number,

8 IT-99-36-T, the Prosecutor versus Radoslav Brdjanin and Momir Talic.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Brdjanin, good afternoon to you. Can you hear

10 me in a language that you can understand?

11 THE ACCUSED BRDJANIN: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your

12 Honour. I can.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. You may sit down.

14 General Talic, good afternoon to you. Can you hear me in a

15 language that you can understand?

16 THE ACCUSED TALIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours.

17 Yes, I can hear you and understand you.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. You may sit down.

19 Appearances for the Prosecution.

20 MS. KORNER: Good afternoon, Your Honours. Joanna Korner for the

21 Prosecution, assisted by Denise Gustin, case manager.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. Good afternoon to you.

23 Appearances for Radoslav Brdjanin.

24 MR. ACKERMAN: Good afternoon, Your Honours. I am John Ackerman.

25 I am here with Marela Jevtovic. Thank you.

1 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. Good afternoon to you.

2 Appearances for General Talic.

3 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon,

4 Mr. President, Your Honours. I'm Natasha Fauveau-Ivanovic, representing

5 General Talic.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Good afternoon to you.

7 Yes. I understand there is a problem, Ms. Korner.

8 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, there is or may be. We received a

9 message this morning from the VWS that Mr. Draganovic was very unwell last

10 night. He apparently has a heart condition, and I imagine it was the

11 result of testifying about these events -- had to be taken to a doctor

12 this morning. I was given that information and spoke to Defence counsel

13 and asked if they would agree to Mr. Draganovic being seen not by me but

14 by an investigator from the team. They gave me verbal agreement. Because

15 the witness was testifying, I needed the Trial Chamber's authority for

16 someone from the team to speak to him. I spoke to Mr. Von Hebel and asked

17 for him to obtain that authority, and I understood that effectively

18 because of what has transpired over the last two days, Your Honours wanted

19 written authority in writing -- written authority from Defence counsel

20 that they agreed that someone from the team could see him. As there was

21 no possibility in the time intervening to obtain such authority, nobody

22 has spoken to him at all, and I'm afraid I don't know what the results are

23 or whether he feels fit and able to testify.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Ms. Korner, it has got nothing to do with what has

25 transpired these last two days. It has to do with the fact that we were

1 not sitting when I received this information. And therefore, this being

2 such a matter of the witness being contacted by an investigator and not

3 for, for example, by someone from the VW section, I told Mr. Von Hebel

4 that it would be better if I have your request in writing and the

5 agreement or disagreement of the Defence in writing before the sitting.

6 And then I was told that there was too short a time for the Prosecution to

7 prepare anything in writing and that the matter would be brought up first

8 thing --

9 MS. KORNER: It's not the Prosecution to prepare. It was the --

10 the difficulty was getting hold of both Defence counsel.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah. But anyway, I just want to make it clear that

12 it has got nothing to do with what has transpired. The fact is that I

13 found it a little bit unusual that it would be an investigator to contact

14 this witness rather than someone from the victim's and witnesses section.

15 I

16 mean, this is ...

17 MS. KORNER: I think the reason is, Your Honour, that because --

18 admirable though the victim's and witness's section may be --

19 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't know how it works, to tell you the truth

20 in such circumstances. And I tried to find out from Mr. Von Hebel, and he

21 doesn't know either. He couldn't recall one instance which he was

22 involved on which he could enlighten me. So I said at this point in

23 time, I would rather prefer to have in writing.

24 MS. KORNER: I quite understand, Your Honour. I'm merely pointing

25 out the situation. All I'm saying is that perhaps before the witness

1 comes in -- when he comes in, rather, Your Honour could make some

2 inquiries as to whether he feels fit to continue testifying --

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. I'm open to all suggestions. This is

4 absolutely new to

5 me. I don't know -- and I've tried to find out what has happened in the

6 past. I've been told that most times in the past when something like

7 this happens, it's been the victim's and witness's section that sort of

8 takes control of the situation, keeps the OTP and the Defence informed,

9 and then you inform me. But what to do at this point in time, I am open

10 to any suggestion that you may have. And if there is absolutely no

11 disagreement from the Defence to have an investigator approach --

12 MS. KORNER: Well, Your Honour, I think it could be done -- well,

13 Your Honour, may I say -- and if Mr. Ackerman would be kind enough to let

14 me finish, first of all -- the situation is I think it probably is a bit

15 easier if -- and it may be one of Your Honours' staff now could speak to

16 the witness.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Is he here?

18 MS. KORNER: I think so.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Is he here? Oh, I thought he wasn't even here.

20 MS. KORNER: I think so, yes. Because it's a bit -- if he's in

21 court, he's going to say that -- to find out what the state of his health

22 is, whether he does feel able to continue this afternoon.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. I mean -- I think -- do you have any objection

24 if I direct the registrar to do that?

25 MR. ACKERMAN: None at all.

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. So Ms. Chuqing Chen, please could you just

2 have -- and do make it clear to him that we are easy and that if he

3 doesn't feel like giving evidence today --

4 Yes, Madam Fauveau. Yes, please.

5 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] I have no objection.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah. I took it for granted. I mean --

7 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] But I do have an objection

8 to what Ms. Korner just said, because we finished the hearing this morning

9 around noon, and the two Defence teams were present in the Defence room

10 throughout the break and no one contacted us.

11 MS. KORNER: I agree. Nobody did contact them, because by the

12 time we got hold of Mr. Von Hebel, it was something like 1.00. So --

13 JUDGE AGIUS: He informed -- he informed me around about 1.00,

14 anyway.

15 MS. KORNER: That's right. So that's why we took the view that

16 wouldn't have been possible to get all this sorted.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Anyway, you don't have any objection. So Madam

18 Chuqing Chen, I would just suppose that you just make it clear to him if

19 that he doesn't feel well, he only needs to tell us. I mean, we are not

20 here --

21 Yes, Mr. Ackerman.

22 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I just want to say this for the record

23 and make it a part of a transcript in this case. Situations will arise

24 where it is important for things to be dealt with on a rather almost

25 emergency basis. And as frustrating an advocate as Ms. Korner is at

1 times, I do believe her to be a thoroughly and completely honourable

2 lawyer. So if she represents to Your Honours that she has spoken to me

3 and I have no objection, you may put that in the bank, because it will be

4 the truth.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Shall we wait until Ms. Chuqing Chen comes back, or

6 shall we --

7 MS. KORNER: Can I just raise, then, Your Honour --

8 JUDGE AGIUS: How far is the witness from the courtroom?

9 MS. KORNER: It's very close.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Very close.

11 MS. KORNER: Yes. Your Honour, but there are a couple of

12 matters. I was asked this morning about witnesses not for next week but

13 the week after.

14 Your Honour, the --

15 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment.

16 MS. KORNER: There is one witness, because we're not sitting on

17 the Monday, the 6th of May -- that is, Witness 7.224. Your Honours are

18 going to be provided with his statement today. One of the witnesses from

19 the humanitarian organisation.

20 On Friday, the 10th of May, there will be the legal argument in

21 respect of the journalist. And Your Honour, if there's any time left

22 over, there are I'm sure administrative matters one can deal with.

23 Your Honour, what I wonder if we could have some assistance on --

24 it's quite clear that Judge Draganovic will not finish in chief today,

25 absolutely not. The -- he is due to return on Monday, the 13th of May.

1 And again, we're not sitting Friday, the 17th. Can I take it that even if

2 we finish in chief with him on the 13th of May, cross-examination will

3 take up the remaining three days? I'm asking for assistance on the

4 Defence.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Ackerman.

6 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, from my standpoint, I -- I seriously

7 doubt it. I haven't heard all of the direct yet. But from what I've

8 heard, my cross-examination would be quite brief. It may be that there

9 will be evidence to come that would require me to cross-examine further,

10 but I can't imagine based upon what I've heard now that it would require a

11 very lengthy cross-examination.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Madam Fauveau.

13 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] I think that in the worst

14 case, one day will be sufficient for me.

15 MS. KORNER: Well, then, Your Honour, we'll see what arrangements

16 we can make to bring the -- to start the next witness. I mean, the

17 problem -- I suppose in effect we could interpose the legal argument, even

18 if we -- and then have a -- and then start another witness, who can then

19 wait.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: [Microphone not activated] The important thing,

21 Ms. Korner, is that as far as possible, to try and bring and keep

22 witnesses the least possible in The Hague. And that takes, obviously,

23 some planning -- not some. I mean, considerable planning on your -- on

24 your part, more or less what you've been told by the Defence teams now

25 should put you in a position to take stock. So --

1 MS. KORNER: Well, Your Honour, I'll make it absolutely clear that

2 none of these witnesses that are coming up are going to give direct --

3 well, this witness has given direct testimony, as it were, but in hearsay

4 form about General Talic. There's another witness coming thereafter who

5 will give direct evidence of that meeting when General Talic was present.

6 But other than that, this evidence relates to the events that took place

7 in Sanski Most without any direct implication of either accused, only in

8 the sense that there are links which we will be showing through the

9 documents to both accused.

10 If the case is that where there's no direct evidence being given,

11 effectively I may lead a lot of the evidence through. Then that will be

12 of assistance. And it will also speed matters up.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.

14 Madam Registrar?

15 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. With the assistance of the

16 interpreter, I just talked to the witness. Judge Draganovic, and he

17 assured me that he's fit -- very fit to go ahead with this testimony.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Anything else before we start?

19 MR. ACKERMAN: Yes, Your Honour. I mention this only because I

20 don't want to hear someday that I should have mentioned it and didn't. I

21 have yet to hear from -- a response from my latest correspondence with the

22 humanitarian organisation. And there has been more than sufficient time

23 has passed for that to have happened. I have a fear, and I must state

24 that fear for the record, and that is that your ruling allowing these

25 witnesses to testify before I had worked out my arrangements with them has

1 caused them to feel free not to negotiate with me any further. And so I

2 would suggest that you might think about reconsidering that ruling,

3 because I fear that my negotiations with them might be at an end, since

4 there's no longer any impetus for them to do that. I don't know that to

5 be the case, but I'm raising it at this opportunity because there's

6 another -- more than a week now that will go by in this matter, and then

7 the witness will be here.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you, Mr. Ackerman.

9 Yes, Madam Fauveau.

10 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] I wish to join what

11 Mr. Ackerman has said. We are in contact with the same organisation, and

12 we are in the same situation as Mr. Ackerman; we have absolutely no

13 response from them which would indicate any kind of cooperation.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

15 Ms. Korner?

16 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, just -- [Microphone not activated] I

17 have nothing to say on that matter other than to say that the witness has

18 been arranged and certainly the first one will be coming.

19 There's one other witness who, Your Honour, we've had to fix a

20 date for because of the difficulties. That's Witness 7.52. He's not a

21 protected witness, but I see no benefit in mentioning his name in open

22 court -- who is a businessman. He will be testifying -- has to

23 testify -- I'm just giving advance notice -- on the --

24 JUDGE AGIUS: 7.52?

25 MS. KORNER: 7.52.

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.

2 MS. KORNER: On the -- on Friday, the 21st of June and Monday the

3 24th, if necessary. He will also be testifying in the Stakic case. He's

4 one of the witnesses that was named on the proposed deposition motion.

5 And the arrangements are that he will go into the Stakic case once he is

6 finished here.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: So you propose to --

8 MS. KORNER: Call him in chief on Friday, the 21st.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: On 21 --

10 MS. KORNER: Of June.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: We are sitting -- because we do have a week off in

12 June.

13 MS. KORNER: Yes. It's -- we have the week off before.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay.

15 MS. KORNER: And that's the following week.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.

17 Okay. Could you bring the witness in, please.

18 MS. KORNER: The only other thing is Your Honour may think that

19 maybe it might be an idea not to do a full session even though the witness

20 says he's fit and perhaps think about stopping at 6.00.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: I will say -- yesterday, before he comes --

22 yesterday I was -- I tried to keep two eyes open here, and I was watching

23 him. And there was a moment when he was not exactly what I would have

24 liked to see on my monitor. So if that repeats itself, I will stop the

25 sitting, because there was a moment where perhaps we went a little bit too

1 far.

2 [The witness entered court]

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Good afternoon to you, and welcome back to this

4 Tribunal. Once more, I will have to pass through the usual routine, and

5 you're kindly asked to repeat the solemn declaration to tell us the

6 truth. Please go ahead.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, and thank you

8 first. I say that.

9 I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth,

10 and nothing but the truth.

11 WITNESS: ADIL DRAGANOVIC [Resumed]

12 [Witness answered through interpreter]

13 JUDGE AGIUS: You may sit down, Judge.

14 Before we start, the registrar came to speak to you to make sure

15 that you -- not only that you are in a condition to give evidence but that

16 you feel that you are in a state to give evidence. And she assures me

17 that you're feeling all right and that you have no problems with

18 continuing with your testimony today. Am I right to assume that?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, quite so.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. The next thing is if at any time -- if at any

21 time during the course of this afternoon's session you either feel uneasy,

22 tired, awkward, or no longer in a position to continue to give evidence,

23 you -- please do feel free to tell me. I mean, this is a special Tribunal

24 dealing with special events, and we fully understand. And when I say "we

25 fully understand," I can assure you that I'm speaking for the Prosecution

1 and for the Defence. No one wants to put you in a difficult position or

2 to make you feel uneasy in the -- in the witness -- in the witness chair.

3 So Ms. Korner will proceed with the examination-in-chief. And

4 as I said, the moment you would like us to stop, please tell us.

5 Examined by Ms. Korner:

6 Q. Sir, I'm sorry. I'm going to have to ask go on asking you

7 questions about Manjaca camp, as you appreciate. I just want to ask you

8 first of all about the interrogations. First of all, your interrogation.

9 Were you asked to make any kind of a statement?

10 A. Yes. I made a statement. They took us out frequently for

11 interrogation.

12 Q. And you say you made a statement. Was that a document that you

13 signed?

14 A. I made a statement, one. I didn't sign anything. This was after

15 eight days, after leaving this solitary cell, isolation cell, the horse

16 shed, they took us all out for interrogation after the beatings, and we

17 waited there in front of the command. And then one by one or in groups

18 they took us in to see various interrogators. Before that, there was

19 physical mistreatment for each one of us I was interrogated. That was the

20 first time at Manjaca -- by an officer, wearing a uniform. He was about

21 50 years old. He wore a moustache, and he had greying hair. That was the

22 first time.

23 Q. Yes. Can I say -- for the moment what I want to concentrate on

24 the type of statement that you made. Did you -- you say they were

25 questioning you about arms and the like. Did you ever make any admissions

1 to things which were not true?

2 A. I always spoke the truth. I wasn't afraid. And even then I said

3 that we had lived in a -- under good inter-ethnic relations, that there

4 were absolutely no problems, that all my life I had spent in such an

5 atmosphere, in such an environment. I had been educated in a spirit of

6 commonality. I lived in student hostels together with members of all

7 other ethnicities. I socialised with people of all ethnicities, that I

8 never cared as to who was a Serb or a Muslim or a Croat or whatever

9 religion they may be. I couldn't even distinguish people by their

10 religion, whether they were one or the other. I would say that I was a

11 professional in my work, that I did my job correctly in accordance with

12 the law and the constitution of the country.

13 Q. All right. Do you know, because you were told, whether anybody

14 else who was interrogated confessed to doing things they had not done

15 because of the -- the beatings and the violence?

16 A. I think that people signed statements without even knowing what

17 they were signing. I also signed a statement, but maybe a month later. I

18 didn't dare look what was there. They just took me out a month later, and

19 before that they took me out several -- on several other occasions. And I

20 signed that statement, and I don't really know what I signed nor was it

21 read to me nor did I dare read it, because people were beaten whenever

22 they were taken out.

23 Q. I want to ask you what may seem to be a silly question, sir. But

24 why did you sign a statement that you hadn't read and didn't know what was

25 in it?

1 A. I don't know why I did, and I keep asking myself why I didn't read

2 that statement. However, at that point in time I felt that this was a

3 decision on which life and death depended, because interrogators had just

4 arrived from Sanski Most, and they asked me -- they asked me whether I had

5 attended a meeting of the police that Avdo Hebib from Sarajevo had

6 attended. In fact, they didn't ask me whether I had attended. They said

7 that I had been present and that I had taken part in the formation of the

8 police, the Muslim police. And there were -- they had some sort of

9 consultations amongst themselves because there were representatives --

10 there was Rodic, a man called Jugoslav Rodic from Prijedor, and they

11 would go out. I was fearful as to what would happen because I expected to

12 be killed.

13 Q. Thank you. Now, you told us yesterday what had happened to you.

14 I'd like to ask you now about what happened to some of the other people in

15 respect of beatings. I will deal with deaths as a separate topic. Did

16 you see other people being beaten?

17 A. I shall try to speak to you about this in some detail, please,

18 because I need to concentrate to be able to do that. Yesterday I didn't

19 say enough, and I thought about it last night. It is hard to put it in a

20 few sentences here. What kind of physical abuse and beatings we

21 experienced is something I had never seen in my whole life, even in the

22 movies up to then, that people could beat other people like that. They

23 were blows meant to kill. Every night -- or rather, every day there were

24 large-scale beatings, and this was particularly in evidence during the

25 first two months. I spoke yesterday about the horse stable, and it was

1 terrible in this horse stable, the kind of beatings we suffered, because

2 in the meantime they brought several groups, because we from Sanski Most

3 were brought on the 23rd. Then they brought some people from Jajce and

4 Mrkonjic Grad. And they would bring to two three men there from each

5 group, and there were such beatings with various objects that people

6 were -- had blood on them. Then they brought a large group to this same

7 horse stable, 60 or 70 people. And then they beat all of them. This was

8 at 2.00 or 3.00 in the morning. I think that these people were brought

9 from Kljuc. These were older men. Unbelievable. They would beat us with

10 cables, with wooden poles, rifle butts, boots.

11 When we were moved to the cow sheds -- but let me tell you about a

12 detail while we were still in the horse shed. One morning before we

13 went -- I went for interrogation, this military policeman called Bula.

14 We were in a group. He took us out. We had to raise our hands up,

15 showing three fingers, these three fingers, like this. And we formed a

16 circle. And then he forced us with our hands raised in this way to drop

17 on the ground with our bodies forward, one by one, and that we had to say

18 outloud, "I am kissing this Serbian soil. I'm a Serb bastard. This is

19 Serbian land." This was for me the greatest humiliation. I would prefer

20 to get a bullet than to have to say that, but I couldn't get a bullet.

21 But I got beatings instead. If anyone were to fall in a wrong -- in the

22 wrong way, or if he would say something wrong, he would be beaten up: Hit

23 in the stomach, in the head with fits.

24 One old man in front of me, he didn't weigh more than 40

25 kilos. I think he came from somewhere around Mrkonjic Grad. He may have

1 been between 60 and 70 years of age. And I remember this scene. It has

2 stuck in my memory. He fell before me, and he couldn't show these three

3 fingers, but he instead showed these other three fingers. And then this

4 Bula shouted at him, yelled at him, and he jumped on him with his boots,

5 to kick him in the stomach. The man fell down screaming and crying. Then

6 he told him to get up again and to show the three fingers properly. The

7 man couldn't do it. He couldn't get up again. And before my very eyes,

8 he pressed his heel into this area of the kidneys where there was only

9 skin, and he twisted around his heel into this area of his body where his

10 kidney is. And this was terrible. I don't know what happened to that map

11 afterwards. Of course I fell down and did the same thing.

12 I just wanted to describe this for you to show you the way in

13 which they beat us and humiliated us. We had to sing Chetnik songs.

14 When I was transferred to the stables, after the first

15 interrogation, I was all black and blue, all kinds of colours were on me,

16 red, black, and blue from my face, back, chest, legs, stomach. I was all

17 covered in bruises, not just me but everyone else who got into those

18 stables on that day. When I went inside, I saw that those same people

19 were in the stable and their -- they may have numbered some 300, and they

20 also, all of them, had these bruises on their backs and chests. And every

21 day these military policemen would come. And this Bula was the worst,

22 and Zoka, a fair-haired Zoka. There was another one who was dark

23 haired, and other policemen. And also Sinisa. Those three persons were

24 the worst in the physical mistreatment and abuse of people. Every day

25 groups would come in during the day or during the night; sometimes

1 smaller, sometimes larger groups, and no one entered the camp without

2 being beaten up, so badly beaten up that he was black and blue with broken

3 ribs and swellings and haematoma and the like. I could list the names of

4 many people that I knew who entered the camp with such injuries.

5 Within the camp and the stable, every day there was physical

6 mistreatment and beatings several times a day. They would enter two or

7 three times in the course of the day, and they would take all the people

8 in order. The worst -- those who feared worst were those in the middle

9 row on the concrete, because as they walked through the door they would

10 start beating each and every one until they got tired of it. When they

11 tired, they would go away and come back and start all over again. Some

12 people were beaten constantly, every day. People had terrible injuries.

13 When the International Red Cross arrived to see us for the first time,

14 there wasn't a single person that didn't have very serious injuries on his

15 body, bruises on the back, on their faces, and in their chest. People

16 suffered such unbelievable injuries. The worst was night-time. In the

17 evening one wouldn't know who would live to see the day. I couldn't sleep

18 a single night for more than 40 days, maybe 60 days even. I don't know

19 for sure. There was no sleep. Often they would come drunk.

20 Just before nightfall things were quietened down, and then you

21 would start hearing the dogs around the camp. And this was horrific. And

22 then they would come, and they would come to each of the stables. And as

23 there were three stables that were filled at the time in the first camp,

24 first they would go to one, the second, and then the third stable and beat

25 the inmates up. Every night they would take out 10 to 20 men, maybe more

1 even. It's hard to say. We would hear in the lower stable when they beat

2 people in the upper stable. Usually they would call them out from the

3 doorway. They would call them out by name and first name, and people had

4 to go out, leave the stable, and go out in front of the stable. And that

5 is when the beatings began. It was hard to say which was worse, to listen

6 to those screams and those beatings. It's as if you were to take a large

7 carpet and hang it up and beat it with a beater, if you ever did that or

8 heard it, and the blows you make with it make the sounds -- such sounds as

9 we heard when they were beating the people. Then there were moans, cries,

10 crying, screaming, bangs against the door of the stable. Sometimes they

11 would take men outside the camp during that first month. Above the camp,

12 there was a covered area for vehicles, and they would take people there

13 because there were more of them there, and they would beat people,

14 especially the people from Kljuc. They would take them out there.

15 I apologise. Excuse me.

16 When they would finish beating the people in the first stable,

17 then it was the turn for the second stable, the one in the middle. They

18 would open the door. They would call the people to come out from that

19 stable. They had to come out. They would give a list to the person on

20 duty there at the door, and he would read from the list. Then the

21 beatings would start for half an hour, 40 minutes, or -- I don't know for

22 how long. It's difficult to say. And then it was the turn for the lower

23 stables. But not a single night passed without people being called out

24 and being beaten. In the course of the night, people would return to the

25 stables. They would crawl in and take other people in, because after the

1 beatings they were ordered to go back to the stables. Sometimes there

2 were more of them who were beating. We didn't know exactly who

3 participated in them, but there were military policemen, Bula, this

4 fair-haired man called Zoka, Spaga, and others whose names I will

5 mention. Soldiers would come wearing uniforms. I mentioned someone who

6 was fully equipped. He had a helmet on which there were some kinds of

7 ornaments. I'm not a soldier, so I don't know what it is exactly, but

8 some sort of camouflage which conceals the helmet, and he was a strong

9 Serbian soldier. Many of them came on several occasions to beat people.

10 I don't know where they came from, whether it was from the barracks down

11 below or whether they were in the barracks there, whether they were the

12 guards. When they started standing guard duty -- when the policemen

13 started going on guard duty, policemen who would come from the public

14 security stations of the various municipalities, I can say that the people

15 from Kljuc are the ones who were beaten, together with the military

16 policemen. And I can say that I didn't notice that these policemen who

17 came from Sanski Most -- I didn't notice that they participated in the

18 beatings of people in this way, when they were on guard. I didn't hear

19 this from anyone, from any of the inmates.

20 As I said, these beatings lasted for a long time. Sometimes they

21 would get tired. They would fall into a sort of box, and then they would

22 take it in turns to beat people. Some people were lucky and wouldn't be

23 beaten on that occasion, but he would be beaten on another occasion.

24 Every week -- I think it was a Sunday -- they would come en

25 masse and they would make all of us leave the stables, and we would have

1 to line up ten by ten and we would have to crouch down, and they would

2 then enter the stables to inspect them. This took place every week. They

3 inspected them, just to see that we hadn't brought anything in. They

4 scattered everything they could find there. I don't know what they were

5 looking for exactly. They were searching for something. Then the people

6 would be called out in front of the door to each stable, the entrance to

7 each stable, and they would call each person out, ask each person to go

8 in. Everyone had to enter the stable very quickly; otherwise, he would be

9 beaten. And as each person entered the stable, they would search these

10 people. We all had to stand like this. And then they would beat us while

11 we were entering the stable. And then they would let the people enter.

12 Everyone was treated in this way. This took place every week, and we all

13 received beatings. Not a single person was spared these beatings.

14 Sometimes the beatings lasted for a long time and were very severe, and

15 sometimes they were not so severe.

16 And then when it would rain, they would often make us leave the

17 stables, and we would have to stand there in the rain getting wet.

18 Sometimes we would stand there in the rain for two or three hours or

19 more. And when we were completely drenched, they would drive us back into

20 the stables. And naturally, in the stables there was earth and concrete

21 and water, and we would have to lie down in that kind of a state. I don't

22 know what -- what we could call this -- or rather, I do, because everyone

23 had to wait for these clothes to dry. But how could this happen? That

24 would take days.

25 If you would allow me just to describe something else. While I

1 was in those stables and when they would bring groups of those poor people

2 from fields, from their houses and -- I don't know where they would bring

3 them from, from buses. They were taken off buses too and brought there.

4 In the lower stable in which I was kept, stable number 1, after a few days

5 they brought a group -- a big group from Kljuc there. And that was

6 terrible. The people would enter the stables. It was dark. They put the

7 light on somehow. They seldom do that. They seldom did that. But on

8 that occasion, they did put the light on. They brought those people in

9 a -- in a truck from Gornja Sanica. And they were between 16 or 17 years

10 of age up until about 70 or 80. There were old people there, senile

11 people. Then the beatings would start outside, inside. They were thrown

12 in through the door, and they would beat them as they were entering them.

13 It was necessary to pass the metal fence. You had to bend over, and then

14 you would be hit on the back with a -- with a plank. I don't know with

15 what. And they shoved the people into those boxes. Not everyone was able

16 to fit in. They shoved a group into the box in which we were kept. I was

17 facing the wall towards the bottom of the stables. And then these people

18 on the other side from the ditch, they made them lie down there and placed

19 their heads down on the floor. And you can imagine what it looked like.

20 That area only had one square metre, and there was stone on the ground and

21 pebbles, very sharp pebbles. That was half the area. And the other half

22 of the area was concrete, perhaps 10 centimetres more elevated than the

23 other half. And people had to lie down there, and I saw that with my own

24 eyes. We had to look down, but we weren't allowed to look at what was

25 happening, but I looked at it secretly. And they would shove people's

1 faces into those -- into that pebble ground. It's impossible to imagine

2 that. It's impossible to imagine people doing such things. Naturally I

3 met all those people. I became acquainted with them. And their injuries

4 were terrible. They'd all been through the same things. We had all been

5 through the same things. Every day the same sort of abuse would take

6 place. We would be called out, taken away for interrogation. We would be

7 beaten. We would be put in the isolation cells and beaten there. Whoever

8 was taken to an isolation cell -- all the isolation cells were always full

9 of people. Everyone had to stay in an isolation cell. Beatings took

10 place in these isolation cells every evening. The isolation cell is about

11 50 metres away from me. We could hear every blow, every scream. And all

12 of us in the stables lived through this. It was terrible. It's

13 impossible to say whether it was worse to listen to this or to be beaten.

14 The injuries some people sustained were terrible, and they went

15 out with these injuries. They left the camp, those who survived, with

16 these injuries. Some were killed. Some were taken away; we don't know

17 where. But all I can say is that this was a death camp. It was a death

18 camp. Their goal was to kill all of us, to make sure that we no longer

19 existed. That's what they told us.

20 Q. Who told you that? Who told you that their goal was that you

21 should no longer exist?

22 A. Military policemen told us this, the military policemen who came

23 in on a daily basis. They had prepared this propaganda, and they would

24 what they would tell us. They told us that we weren't a people. They

25 said that we were going to be like the Palestinians that -- our fate would

1 be worse than theirs. They said, "You want a state? Here is a state for

2 you." They told us, "Here and your Alija Izetbegovic," et cetera, et

3 cetera. Every day they had prepared speeches. And when they came to give

4 us these speeches -- to make these speeches, they beat us. As I say, this

5 lasted for 60, 70 days. It's difficult to say how long exactly. But I

6 could mention some periods up until the time when Omer Filipovic and

7 others were killed, up until when the International Red Cross came to

8 carry out a sort of registration and up until the appearance of the

9 journalists, because when the International Red Cross and the journalists

10 arrived, things changed. But I forgot how to sleep. I wasn't able to

11 sleep. When night fell, death appeared too. I didn't think I was going

12 to survive. It's possible to talk about these things for a long time. I

13 could expand on this, but I think that other people -- other inmates will

14 speak about this too.

15 Since you're going to ask me about killings, I'll answer your

16 questions about this subject.

17 Q. All right. Before we get on to that, can I just ask you about a

18 couple of the things you've mentioned. First, you've mentioned this man

19 Bula. Did you discover what his name -- his real name was?

20 A. I think his name was Zeljko Bulatovic. But again, I'm not a

21 hundred per cent sure because they would hide their real names. They had

22 nickname z of some kind. They had several nicknames. But I figured out

23 that that was his name. But I'm not absolutely certain of this, because

24 he is -- one of his nicknames was Fadil. Another one was Bula. Then he

25 had a third nickname it was Tito. I can describe him.

1 Q. Don't worry about that. Were you interviewed by the German

2 authorities in respect of this man?

3 A. Yes, I was.

4 Q. Do you know what happened to him? Was he ever prosecuted?

5 A. As far as I know, he wasn't, not in Republika Srpska -- that is to

6 say in Bosnia-Herzegovina. I don't know of any proceedings.

7 Q. You also mentioned this man you called Spaga. Who was Spaga?

8 What level of authority did he have in the camp?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, would you allow me to

10 use some of my notes in order to be certain of the names, to avoid making

11 any errors? If I may. If not, I'll just say what I can remember, because

12 I made notes, and I do have these notes in my pocket.

13 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I wonder if he may be allowed to use his

14 notes to refresh his memory if he's --

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Ackerman?

16 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, if he's going to use notes, I think a

17 copy should be made for --

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Madam Fauveau?

19 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] I agree with Mr. Ackerman.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Judge, do you have any objection at all if you are

21 allowed to make reference to your notes to make a copy of those notes

22 available to the Defence and to the Prosecution, obviously, and also to

23 the Court?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, it's just a piece of paper, an

25 ordinary piece of paper. I didn't prepare anything in particular. I made

1 a list of names -- of the names I know of in order to avoid any error.

2 But if necessary, I can copy it. It's no problem. It's just an ordinary

3 piece of paper.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is just to help me to be

6 precise.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Exactly. No. I'll explain to you the procedure of

8 this Court. Usually when a witness asks to be allowed to consult notes,

9 personal notes, usually the practice is that permission is granted on

10 condition that those notes are also made accessible to whoever wants to

11 check.

12 So perhaps Madam Registrar, we could -- Madam Registrar -- you

13 could make reference to the notes and then we will make a copy of them and

14 have them -- have them handed over to the Defence.

15 MS. KORNER: Yes.

16 Q. The man you called Spaga, again do you know what he -- did you

17 ever discover what his real name was and what position he held in the

18 camp?

19 A. Yes, I found out what his name was. I found out what his real

20 name was. He's from Banja Luka. I know that he lives in Banja Luka now

21 too and that he was a private businessman in the catering business. And

22 it's quite possible that this is still what he does now in Banja Luka.

23 His name is Predrag Kovacevic aka Spaga.

24 Q. And was he -- did he hold any position of authority in the camp

25 that you could see higher than an ordinary guard?

1 A. I think that he was a command of the guards in the camp, and they

2 would call him "warden" and whatnot. But he was the person who entered

3 the camp every day and at all times of the day.

4 Q. The person in charge of the camp was a man named Colonel Popovic.

5 Did you see him in the camp?

6 A. Yes, I did. Bozidar Popovic was a lieutenant colonel in the

7 JNA, and I knew that he was the commander of the camp. I can describe

8 him. He entered the camp occasionally. But most of the time he was in

9 the command and in the surroundings of the camp. We would see him when he

10 arrived, when he left. He had a -- a driver. He was driven around in a

11 Lada car which had been taken from a Bosnian from Kljuc who had been

12 killed, someone called Spreco. So he drove around in that car.

13 Q. When he came into the camp, was that into the precincts where the

14 prisoners were -- the areas where the prisoners were?

15 A. Yes. Yes. He came in on several occasions. He came in very

16 often. If some delegation came to visit, he was always with that

17 delegation. He went into all the stables. He would make the rounds of

18 the entire camp. He went into the horse shed too.

19 Q. Was he ever present when a beating was taking place? If you can't

20 remember one way or the other, then say so.

21 A. I can't remember. I only saw him when a group from Prijedor was

22 brought in, from Omarska. I saw him on that occasion, when they took the

23 people out there and when they killed them, he was there on the grounds.

24 I saw him from -- in that area, but I can't remember seeing him in that

25 place.

1 Q. I'll come back to that incident about the killing. But when he

2 was there, were there prisoners open to view by anybody who had injuries,

3 visible injuries?

4 A. Well, he was there every day. He saw us inmates every day. I

5 have a sketch of this camp here. People were taken away for interrogation

6 on a daily basis. They would stand by the wall. And when they took

7 people for interrogations, they would first of all be beaten. He must

8 have seen that. It's just not possible for him not to have seen that. He

9 heard people groaning. Every day Bula and Zoka, Oseka, Sinisa, and others

10 someone called Popovic Alexander, Cukic [phoen]. When they went to the

11 isolation cell to beat the people who were confined there, he knew they

12 were going to beat them there because they would beat people before they

13 were interrogated, before they were questioned. They kept people for days

14 in those isolation cells and beat them every day several times.

15 Yesterday I spoke about the fact that I experienced the same

16 thing. But I know people who -- who were treated even worse than I was,

17 people who were killed too. Omer Filipovic -- the late Omer Filipovic on

18 one occasion when he was taken to the isolation cell, he stayed there had

19 for 18 days. I heard them beating Omer Filipovic every day. He was so

20 tough he didn't cry, he didn't scream, he didn't groan. He put up with it

21 stoically until -- until he died. And I'm just talking about this with

22 regard to whether Popovic knew about this, to show whether he knew about

23 this, because he knew everything. He saw us every day. He saw us through

24 the -- through the fence, because his command, his window faced our

25 stables, and he could see us when we passed by with our heads bowed down

1 and our arms behind our backs. Naturally he could see us. Every day we

2 were taken away to do forced labour. Thousands of men were taken away to

3 do forced labour every day. From morning until night this is hard

4 labour. You haven't asked me any questions about food yet, what the food

5 is like.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. I think we'll talk about food in 15 minutes'

7 time. Judge, we'll give you a rest for 15 minutes, and we'll resume

8 immediately after that. Thank you

9 --- Recess taken at 3.30 p.m.

10 --- On resuming at 3.57 p.m.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Korner.

12 Yes, Mr. Ackerman.

13 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, the witness had two pages of notes,

14 and we've been given a copy of only one page.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Did you have two pages?

16 THE REGISTRAR: No. It is only one page note.

17 MR. ACKERMAN: I mean, I'm sitting right here. He had two pages

18 out when he asked if he could refer to his notes.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah. But if he's going to refer to one page only,

20 I mean, that's what you'll get.

21 MR. ACKERMAN: That's fine. I'm just making sure that we have

22 got --

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Did you have two pages or one page? Just one page.

24 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.

1 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] The last sentence of this

2 first page referring to Manjaca does not end, so I assume that there's a

3 second page that is relative to this case.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Is there a second page, Judge?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I asked to look at this

6 page only to remind myself of the names. I didn't take out the second

7 page because it doesn't matter. I won't look at it. I don't need it.

8 And since we are talking about the camp, so as not to leave out any names

9 or mention them incorrectly, I have them noted down here when I

10 concentrated and took note of them, should I need them. But there's no

11 problem for me to have the second page copied, but I won't be using it.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Go ahead, Ms. Korner.

13 MS. KORNER:

14 Q. Sir, you dealt with Colonel Popovic. Did any other officers that

15 you saw -- senior officers come to Manjaca while you were there? And I

16 mean military. I'm going to come on to political figures later.

17 A. I noticed especially at first that military delegations did come,

18 or rather, officers, army officers came. And they even entered the

19 stable. They looked around and turned back, as did the camp commander.

20 And it was -- it is hard to say how many times, but they did come.

21 Civilian persons came too, civilian leaders from Banja Luka whom I

22 recognised.

23 Q. I'm going to talk about the civilian leaders later, as I said I

24 want to deal with them as a group. Did you know by sight any of the

25 senior officers or from seeing them on television, any of the senior

1 officers in the 1st Krajina Corps, or the 5th, as it was earlier on?

2 A. Let me tell you that from the 1st -- or rather, 5th Krajina Corps,

3 that I didn't know the officers except if I saw them on television. But I

4 knew General Talic also by sight from television, but I didn't know other

5 people by name. I didn't know who they were.

6 Q. All right. Did you ever see General Talic at the camp?

7 A. It seems to me that General Talic came to visit the camp once, but

8 I do allow for the possibility that I may be wrong because when officers

9 came, most frequently when a delegation came, be it a military one or any

10 other kind, the order was for the doors of the stables to be closed and no

11 one was allowed out, so everyone had to be inside, except when they

12 entered the stables to see them. It seems to me that General Talic was

13 there once, and he knows best whether he was or not. I think this was

14 sometime around the end of June, the beginning of July or in July. I

15 think so. That was when dugouts were made with machine-guns at the

16 corners of the camp on all sides, and there were machine-guns positioned

17 there and an observation post had been erected above the camp, and a

18 soldier was stationed there to observe things. And it seems to me that I

19 saw him on that observation post, but I do allow for the possibility that

20 I may be wrong.

21 Q. And how were you able -- if you were in the stables and the doors

22 were shut, how were you able to see that someone was on the observation

23 post?

24 A. I was assigned to working in the canteen, helping in preparing the

25 food, so I was outside the stable.

1 Q. Thank you. I haven't quite finished on the beatings yet. But you

2 referred to a plan of Manjaca. Can you have a look at what was attached

3 to your statement as attachment number 7?

4 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, it is in fact the same as P467.

5 Q. Can you just tell us whether that's the plan you're talking about.

6 A. Yes, that is the sketch, the detailed sketch of the camp within

7 the wire fence. It's a well-made sketch.

8 Q. I want you, please, if you could --

9 MS. KORNER: Put it on the ELMO, please, Mr. Usher.

10 Q. Not you, Mr. Draganovic.

11 And could you just indicate which barn you were held in.

12 A. The first barn. That was the lower one within the first camp, and

13 I was inside this one in the -- on the left-hand side.

14 Q. All right.

15 MS. KORNER: I don't know whether Your Honours want him to mark

16 that and make it an exhibit or whether it's sufficient simply if he's

17 indicated --

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, please, Ms. Korner.

19 Judge, could I kindly ask you to draw an arrow marking the shed or

20 stable that according to you were kept in.

21 THE WITNESS: [Marks]

22 JUDGE AGIUS: And put your initials, please, next to that arrow.

23 THE WITNESS: [Marks]

24 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Judge.

25 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, may that then be made Prosecutor's

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1 Exhibit 760, please.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: 7?

3 MS. KORNER: 760.

4 Q. Now, sir, just one other aspect on the beatings generally which

5 you've described in such detail. You said that people were called out.

6 Was there any, as it were, targeting of people who you described as

7 leaders in the community who were being called out or singled out for

8 these beatings, or did it apply to everybody?

9 A. When I mentioned these call-outs, especially at night, they would

10 call out mostly people who were leaders of parties or who held certain

11 positions. And between 10 and 20 men would leave one of these sheds

12 almost every night until Bender and Filipovic's death.

13 Also, within the stable when the military policemen came -- mostly

14 it was Bula, Zoka, and Sinisa -- they always or most frequently selected

15 those people and would beat them first and then the others.

16 Q. Now, I want to ask you about the deaths. There were, I think, a

17 number of incidents. So can we divide them.

18 First of all, how many people -- I don't mean exact numbers, but

19 what incidents of these beatings resulted in death of the prisoner?

20 A. I -- considering all those killed -- that were killed at Manjaca,

21 and those who were choked during transportation, and those who were taken

22 away alive from Manjaca in trucks and whose traces are lost and whom I

23 consider to have been killed, so I can roughly add all those up and it

24 would amount to between 60 and 80 people.

25 Q. Can we deal first of all with people who died as a result of these

1 beatings. And let's start with Omer Filipovic, who you've mentioned.

2 Were you present when he was beaten?

3 A. I was present several times when he was beaten.

4 Q. And what was the specific incident that led to his death?

5 A. Let me say first of all what preceded this event in the camp. The

6 International Red Cross came on a visit, and representatives of the

7 International Red Cross entered the sheds so that the military policemen

8 were outside the sheds. And the representatives of the International Red

9 Cross would speak to people one on one, examine their injuries, the

10 injuries on their bodies. Even though there was fear, people would show

11 their injuries and their suffering. On that day -- or rather, the

12 previous day Omer Filipovic was brought back from the isolation cell where

13 he had spent, I think, 18 days, something like that. That was his second

14 solitary confinement. And throughout the period he spent in solitary

15 confinement, he was beaten up there. And I heard the beating, and I saw

16 them leave -- the policemen, the military policemen -- when they went to

17 beat him.

18 On that day when the International Red Cross was due to come, a

19 part of the stall that I was in the first stable -- there were 30 of

20 us, and we were forced out of that part of the stable and forced to go to

21 the other side closer to the door, so that this area that was now empty,

22 that is where they put Omer Filipovic and he had to face the wall. He was

23 not allowed to look towards the rest of us, and that is how he stood when

24 the International Red Cross arrived. And then a representative of the

25 International Red Cross spoke to Omer Filipovic. After that -- I'm afraid

1 I can't remember exactly whether it was after two, three, or five days,

2 but anyway the International Red Cross was due to come again. They had

3 announced they would come on Wednesday to bring registration cards with

4 them because we were supposed to be given numbers. And that night just

5 before they arrived Omer was again in isolation, mistreated and beaten

6 there, and that day, the day that he was killed -- that they beat him

7 during the day. And he was covered in blood and beaten up with injuries.

8 They beat him in the isolation cell. And two inmates led him, supporting

9 him on each side. They literally carried him along. He couldn't walk.

10 They dragged him along. He was so badly hurt. And I stood in the

11 immediate vicinity because they passed by me. I was working in the

12 kitchen at the time.

13 That evening when the roll call was done, I was in this stable in

14 the stall, in the box when they called out, among others, Omer Filipovic,

15 telling him to come out straight away. My first thought was that he was

16 unable to go out because he had already been beaten up. However, Omer

17 answered loudly, "Yes, I'm coming out," and he ran from the end of the

18 stable over people's feet, and he came out of the stable. Other people

19 were called out too that night, including myself. However, I didn't go

20 out, nor did some others go out. But those who went out that night,

21 Bender Esad -- I think it was Esad -- a relative of mine, Kemal Draganovic

22 went out; Senad Supuk from Sanski Most went out -- Bajro Supuk. I can't

23 remember all the names. And a terrible thing started outside. They beat

24 them behind the stable closer to the horse shed outside. And the blows

25 were echoing, and they used all kinds of objects -- wooden objects. Every

1 blow was followed by a scream. And this went on for a long time, maybe

2 for two hours. I heard them running -- the policemen running. I heard

3 their shoes. They were carrying buckets of water, pouring water on the

4 men. I heard their steps several times, the steps of the military

5 policemen.

6 And around midnight one of them came to the door of the stable

7 and called out a detainee, Dr. Mehmed Derviskadic who was a friend of mine

8 and he was lying right next to me. We were one next to another -- our

9 bodies were one next to another. Of course we were all in fear, and he

10 was the one that night who kept me from going out. He lay on top of me

11 and said, "If you go out, they'll kill you." And he went out. He didn't

12 come back for a long time. And he came back around 2.00 -- I don't know

13 exactly -- 2.00 a.m. at night, but they -- he was called every night when

14 groups came. And I was always waiting for him to come back.

15 When he came back, he was in shock. He was frightened. He was

16 out of his mind. He whispered in my ear so that others wouldn't hear,

17 "Omer and Bender and Senad Supuk have been killed, and someone else

18 too." That night I learnt from him that they had been killed. However,

19 Senad fell into a garbage pit, and he lost consciousness. He fainted down

20 there. The pit was about 2 or 3 metres deep, and there were metal tins

21 and garbage there, and they probably couldn't pull him out then, and

22 Senad, when he came to, when he regained consciousness in the morning, he

23 crawled back into the stable. We saw then the injuries.

24 Bajro Supuk also and all the others who went out, they fared

25 worse that night. In the morning they wouldn't let us go out. The doors

1 had to be kept closed.

2 The doctor asked me then what he should do. He said that he had

3 to sign a death certificate confirming that they had died of natural

4 causes.

5 Q. Can I just stop you. Was that the doctor you mentioned,

6 Derviskadic, or another doctor?

7 A. Derviskadic.

8 Q. I'm sorry. Yes. Go on.

9 A. In the morning he was called out again to go outside. I saw the

10 military investigations commission arrive from Banja Luka, as in the

11 morning I was where the kitchen was, I saw them. And they went to the

12 horse shed. I think to the left-hand side of the isolation cell. And

13 they carried out an investigation over there. I saw that they had a

14 camera and that they took photographs. Then a military vehicle arrived,

15 and they carried out the bodies and carried them away.

16 Q. To your knowledge, either at that period or at any stage later,

17 has anyone ever been prosecuted for the deaths of Filipovic and Bender?

18 A. I know that no one was, nor were any proceedings instituted.

19 Q. I want to ask you about just one other incident as an example of

20 what you saw before we come to the suffocation incident. Was there an

21 occasion when a group from the Kljuc area, specifically from the village

22 of Krasulje were brought to the camp?

23 A. Krasulje.

24 Q. I'm sorry. Was somebody killed or did somebody die as a result of

25 what happened that evening?

1 A. Before the break, I spoke about the group that was brought in, and

2 that's the group from Krasulje, Kljuc municipality. In that group was a

3 young man who was between 21 and 23 years old. He was really a handsome

4 young man, like a film star, wearing a white shirt and black trousers and

5 rubber boots. He was right next to me, very close to me. I saw that he

6 had already been beaten, that he had come with some injuries. When the

7 policemen left, I took him in so that he could lie in my place. On the

8 12th day, he succumbed. He was beaten. I think he had an injury of his

9 chest. His name was Husein Delalovic.

10 Q. And I'm sorry, just one more incident. Was there also a man in

11 the camp with you named Emir Mulalic who was a policeman from Sanski

12 Most?

13 A. Yes, there was. Emir Mulalic is a policeman who was thrown out of

14 the public security station on that day, the 17th of April, that I spoke

15 about the other day. He was also arrested and brought to Manjaca. He was

16 also killed by beating, and this happened during interrogations in the

17 command. He was beaten by military policemen. Twice in the same day,

18 while the interrogation went on, he was interrogated by a police inspector

19 from Sanski Most, Brane Sobot -- Brane Sobot and another police inspector

20 from Sanski Most. He was beaten up while he was being questioned by him.

21 Then they took him out, and then in the hallway they beat him again, and

22 that is where he was killed. They beat him -- that is, Spaga, Bula,

23 Sinisa, I think the three of them -- but a witness who was present when he

24 was being beaten can tell you best, because Spaga beat him after he had

25 passed away already.

1 Q. Okay. Can I ask you about the deaths as a result of the

2 suffocation on the way to Manjaca. Did you personally witness any of that

3 incident, any part of it?

4 A. I was in the camp, and they were being transported on the 7th of

5 July. And a lot of people from Sanski Most were taken to Manjaca in

6 trucks. They were all civilians who had been imprisoned from the 27th of

7 May in the sports hall in Sanski Most, in Betonirka, the Betonirka garage.

8 Some of them were in the prison of the public security station. Some

9 were in -- in the Krings hall. The people who were -- who were

10 suffocated, they had already been treated in Sanski Most. And when I say

11 "treated," I mean physically abused. These people mostly came from

12 Betonirka, and they were all in one lorry. At the time I was in the

13 stables that evening. That was on the 6th, in the evening. The military

14 police -- I don't know whether it was the fair-haired man called Zoka --

15 and I'll tell you why I distinguish between the fair-haired Zoka and the

16 dark-haired Zoka. There were three Zokas, but I don't know what their

17 surnames really were, so this is how I distinguished them, because they

18 behaved toward people different too. Someone called doctors to come out.

19 Dr. Meho Derviskadic and Dr. Eniz Sabanovic were asked to come out

20 immediately. They were both inmates from Sanski Most. They went out.

21 And we had previously heard through the walls -- that is to

22 say, we saw the shadows cast by the light when the lorries were coming.

23 There were new inmates coming, but we didn't know who was coming. But we

24 knew that several lorries were arriving. They stopped over at the command

25 for a long time. I can't remember what time it was at night when

1 Derviskadic approached me. He seemed quite lost, and he told me once

2 again, "It was terrible. It was terrible. Our people have been killed,

3 suffocated, a lorry full of them. I counted 17 dead bodies." He told me

4 the names. I immediately found out the names of these people. He told me

5 that they were loaded onto the lorry again, that this camp commander

6 Popovic ordered that they should be returned there, and even people who

7 were in a very serious condition from other lorries, he also ordered them

8 to return to the lorries, and he said that three -- two or three men who

9 remained alive were sent back to help those who had been injured.

10 And among them was a doctor. He hadn't yet graduated, the son

11 of Faik Biscevic. The other people entered the camp in the morning, and

12 that lorry returned. We knew that there were between 24 and 28 people

13 there. They never appeared again, not even those who remained alive and

14 who were left.

15 In 1995 and afterwards, I tried to find the location of that

16 cemetery, since as an investigating judge I had certain information,

17 according to which that cemetery was located in Krkojevac. On several

18 occasions, I tried to find it by digging, but without any success. It

19 wasn't until 2000, the year 2000 that I managed to find a man who showed

20 me that location. We organised an exhumation. We found 20 bodies. We

21 didn't find all the bodies. That grave was concealed, and it was about 6

22 kilometres from Sanski Most in the Sanski River canyon, on the left bank

23 of the river, between the local road which goes to Kljevci and the coast.

24 And the ground had been leveled there so it was impossible to know that

25 that's where the location was.

1 So the other people who were still alive in the lorry, who had

2 been sent back from Manjaca and the doctor who returned, these people were

3 never found.

4 Q. Was one of the people who was killed in that transport the

5 president of the misdemeanour court, Nedzad Muhic?

6 A. Yes. Nedzad Muhic was the president of the misdemeanour court and

7 when this exhumation was carried out, I recognised his body. He had a

8 brother, Rano, and they were both suffocated -- they were both -- they

9 both suffocated in that transport.

10 Q. Now, unless there are any other particular incidents that you

11 would like the Court to know about, I would like to move on to deal with

12 other aspects of the camp.

13 A. Well, as you're going to ask me some questions, I would prefer to

14 respond to your question.

15 Q. I want to ask you now about medical treatment. You mentioned two

16 doctors. What medical supplies were available to these doctors -- no.

17 I'll start again. Were the doctors allowed to administer treatment to

18 people who had been beaten?

19 A. Well, it's difficult to answer that question. In order for some

20 of the inmates to get to see a doctor, to be examined, it was necessary to

21 register in the afternoon to be put down on a list in the afternoon, and

22 the person who was on guard in the stables would hand over that list to

23 the police at the gate. The police then called out those people and would

24 check -- would check them. They would even beat them. And it was only if

25 the police authorised this that it was possible for the people to go and

1 see a doctor in the morning outside the grounds of the camp. So this was

2 at the command. But that only started functioning a little later. In the

3 beginning, maybe for a month, two months -- I don't know exactly --

4 although there were doctors in the camp, they were treated in the same way

5 as all the other inmates, and they were with us in the stables -- in the

6 barns. And no medical care had been organised at that time, but they

7 would approach people of their own accord. They would give them advice,

8 tell them what to do.

9 Q. All right.

10 A. There was nothing to -- nothing had been organised to help

11 people.

12 Q. We're going to hear evidence from others about the medical

13 aspect.

14 Can I then deal with food, that you mentioned before the break.

15 What was the food like? How often did you get fed, and was it adequate?

16 A. I apologise. I would like to add a few things about the medical

17 treatment in order to be more precise. So I want to be quite clear. A

18 little later -- I can't say exactly when -- I think that in this

19 outpatient clinic and at the command outside the grounds of the camp they

20 had some sort of medicine, tablets mainly. I don't know where these

21 tablets had been obtained from, whether from the command of the -- of the

22 camp or from Merhamet, the charity organisation, or from somewhere else.

23 But at the time it was possible for people to obtain some pills. But this

24 occurred very seldom. Not everyone could get them. A few people were

25 able to get them sometimes.

1 Later when the International Red Cross arrived, the situation

2 improved.

3 But as far as food is concerned, it should be sufficient to say

4 that every inmate from the 1st of June, when the camp was established --

5 it was about the 1st of June, 1992 -- so from that date up until the

6 arrival of the International Red Cross, every single inmate lost between

7 20 and 25 kilogrammes. If I say that two meals were provided, well, these

8 meals were just completely insubstantial. As I worked in the kitchen

9 where I prepared the food, I know how much bread was provided for each

10 meal. One slice of -- one loaf of bread, under a kilo. They would cut

11 this loaf up for between 25 to 40 people. So one of those minute

12 slices -- it was barely a slice. It was transparent. It was between half

13 a centimetre and a centimetre thick and about 5 by 6 centimetres. So that

14 was a very small amount of bread, and that's the amount you would get

15 twice a day. I have forgotten certain things, but there are certain

16 things that I can remember.

17 In the beginning, they would get this little piece of bread and

18 half a cup of tea. The tea was made in -- in a military mobile kitchen.

19 That's where they would stoke up a fire. That's where they would boil

20 water. And this was made out of -- this was made out of rose hip, and it

21 would be cooked for over a month. The same rose hip -- they would make

22 tea out of the same rose hip. It was just warm water. There was no sugar

23 at all, until the International Red Cross arrived. And there was another

24 meal in the course of the day. So this was just a tiny slice of bread.

25 It was barely a crumb. And there was some kind of broth which was

1 prepared in a primitive way out of what we had.

2 Initially the aid provided by the Merhamet was very important to

3 us. They would bring vegetables, cabbage, potatoes, occasionally meat.

4 But meat was provided very seldom. On the whole, we received some kind of

5 soya. We had beans. When we got beans, that would be for a holiday of

6 some kind. But there was never a sufficient amount of anything. The

7 portions were minute. We didn't get a third meal. People had to do hard

8 labour. About a thousand people a day would leave the stables. And when

9 they would call from the command, when Spaga, some of the military

10 policemen called from the command and asked for a 1.000 people to come

11 out -- 1.000 people had to come out in five minutes time from all of the

12 stables.

13 On one occasion, five people were missing. Twenty of them entered

14 the stables. They had prepared -- prepared themselves, and they entered

15 with clubs, metal rods, and they beat up the entire camp. All of the

16 inmates were beaten. There were many people who were injured, and they

17 beat people all over their bodies. They had injuries to their heads,

18 arms, broken arms, broken ribs, injuries to the ribs. There was a lot of

19 bleeding. I saw a lot of people who were covered in blood there. And the

20 only reason for this was that five people hadn't come out.

21 People went to work in the fields. I myself went to dig for

22 potatoes there. From 7.00 or 8.00 in the morning, that's when we would go

23 into the fields, up until the afternoon, in the very hot sun. We had

24 been -- our hair had been cut very short. We had been beaten. Many

25 people were ill. Others went to the woods to collect heavy timber.

1 Military policemen and soldiers came from Banja Luka. Orders would be

2 issued every day for the soldiers. They were told to load lorries with

3 timber, to fell trees. They would fell the trees, and the inmates would

4 carry the timber in the forest. There were heavy logs that had to be

5 carried. They were beaten in the woods while they were carrying the

6 timber. They would fall off the lorries while the timber was being

7 transported. And then people also -- people were also involved in

8 building a church very near the camp. This lasted for two or three

9 months. I don't know for how long exactly. They worked all day long, up

10 until the evening, and they had very little food. They did other sorts of

11 work, because in that area, on those grounds there were stables with

12 cattle. And at that time the 1st Corps -- what we called the 1st Corps at

13 the time, they brought all the property that we had in the Bosnian

14 villages to that -- to those grounds, all our cattle. Over 5.000 heads of

15 cattle were brought there, and an enormous number of sheep and of goats.

16 The livestock died outside.

17 Every day lorries would arrive from Banja Luka, from

18 slaughterhouses. We had to load this livestock into lorries. We had to

19 feed this livestock too. And we did other kinds of jobs too.

20 And now that we're talking about food, I said that there wasn't

21 enough sugar. I would like to say that during certain periods, there was

22 no salt either because we wouldn't be given salt. Dr. Derviskadic

23 explained to me that this was deliberate, because if you don't have enough

24 salt, people become aggressive. The metabolism becomes disturbed. And

25 sometimes we would go without salt for 15 days.

1 Please allow me to say something else. When this food would be

2 prepared, we would go out, we would be in lines. We'd leave each stable.

3 We would bow our heads, and our arms would be behind our backs. The

4 military police was always present there. And if anyone raised his head,

5 he would be beaten immediately in front of all of us. These beatings were

6 terrible. We would be kicked in the chest with -- in the head. We'd be

7 kicked in the most sensitive parts of the body. Very often they would

8 make one inmate beat another one. And if he didn't beat the other inmate

9 sufficiently badly, he would be beaten by the police. People would fall

10 down. They were helpless.

11 When food was distributed, when people ate, they ate from dirty

12 plates because there was no water. And the dishes weren't washed. The

13 humiliation was terrible. I saw people eating grass. They would take the

14 grass and eat it. There was no grass anywhere in the camp because every

15 blade of grass was eaten. Between the stables, in a small area, septic

16 pits had been dug, and we would use them to relieve ourselves. These pits

17 were about 3 metres deep, about 2 to 5 metres long, and this is where we

18 would relieve ourselves. We would use a plank.

19 The stables were on a -- on a slight slope, so the upper stable is

20 a little more elevated, about -- it's about 1 metre higher or 2 than the

21 lower stable. And between the stables, there were these pits, these

22 septic pits. When one of them was full, we would dig another one, and

23 then a third one. We dug all these pits. So that between the stables, in

24 those areas, there was these pits and excrement, and this is where grass

25 would grow, and this is grass that we would eat. This camp number one and

1 then camp number two, they were separated by a fence and minefields. This

2 was a very small area, a rectangular area, a square area perhaps, about

3 100 metres long on one side, 50 or 100 metres long on the other side, so

4 100 by 100 metres at the most. They were surrounded by minefields and a

5 fence, and artillery guns were pointed because there were cannons and

6 anti-aircraft artillery down below. There were machine-guns in dugouts in

7 the camp itself by the fence.

8 Q. I want to stop you there, but we're getting rather away from the

9 subject and I wanted to deal with it in the round of the food. I just

10 want to go back for one minute to something you said a little time ago now

11 when the five men refused to come out or didn't come out of the barns in

12 the morning. You said 20 men, they came in with these iron bars. Who

13 were they? I mean, who were these people?

14 A. They were military policemen and assistants of theirs. They all

15 entered, and they were all involved in the beatings, and we were all

16 beaten, all of us in one of the stables. Only because five people did not

17 go out. There were disabled people, people who after those beatings

18 remained seriously disabled. And I would just like to add before I forget

19 this, that after this time in the camp, a large number of people died in

20 Bosnia or abroad, and these were people who aged between 30 and 40

21 years -- between 30 and 50 years. I think that at least 200 or 300 people

22 died from that group, and I don't know if you're going to ask me how many

23 people were detained there.

24 Q. What I -- now you raise it, I will. If you have the figures --

25 although we have other evidence about it -- how many people were detained

1 there? If you could just give us the number.

2 A. I knew what the approximate number was, as I was in the kitchen

3 and I distributed the bread in camp number 1. I know how many people

4 there were in camp number 2 too. But I know the exact number of people

5 who passed through that camp from the 1st of June up until the 18th of

6 December. That's about 5.434 people.

7 Q. Again, we've come off the subject slightly. But as you've raised

8 this, of those people that you were in the camp with, how many of them had

9 been arrested or caught actually fighting, actually involved in fighting

10 against the Serbs?

11 A. These were mostly civilians who were arrested in their homes, who

12 were brought from villages, from towns. These were not people who were

13 fighting. These were civilians, all of them. I saw them bring in several

14 soldiers too. I saw two members of the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina who

15 were brought in as military prisoners. They were peasants. I spoke to

16 them later. And they were later exchanged. There was another soldier,

17 maybe an officer of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina who was caught at Jajce

18 or Zenica. And I also knew two or three officers of the Croatian army who

19 were captured somewhere near Bugojno. A member of HOS was brought in. I

20 heard of that. And I heard that he was killed in the -- in solitary

21 confinement. The rest were civilians. They were all civilians. So there

22 were no men there who were resisting the Serbian army or anything else.

23 Later on when Jajce fell, when the Serbs gained control of it,

24 another group of soldiers were brought there who were Serbs by ethnicity.

25 I didn't really know who they were, whether they were deserters from the

1 Army of Republika Srpska or something else. I know that they stayed

2 behind when we were released. So they stayed in the Serbian army. And

3 there were two other Serb soldiers -- one or two -- who were also

4 deserters from the Serb army and who were with us in the stable.

5 Q. Okay. Can you just explain to the Trial Chamber, who may not have

6 heard that expression before, what HOS is, H-O-S.

7 A. HOS stands for the Croatian defence forces in Bosnia-Herzegovina.

8 They were units of the territorial defence of Croats who were actually at

9 first defending their villages. However, later on they either joined the

10 Croatian Defence Council, HVO, or the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

11 Q. All right. Now, can I just go back for a brief moment to the

12 question of nutrition in general. You've said -- you've explained about

13 there was no water to wash the plates, and so you had to eat food from

14 dirty plates. Were you given facilities to wash, to have showers of any

15 kind?

16 A. We had a chance to have a bath very rarely. I can't be very

17 specific whether it was once a month or once in two months. They would

18 bring in a water tank from Banja Luka by the military units, and there in

19 the camp they would set up showers outside. And then we would have three

20 minutes to pass under those showers with cold water. But as I was saying,

21 this was very rare, but it did exist. At first there was water, the first

22 few days. There was certain installations in the camp because this used

23 to be an agricultural estate. However, this was switched off, and there

24 was no more water.

25 We then had to carry water from the lake. We were given

1 buckets by the International Red Cross, and we would go out, led by the

2 military policemen, in a line as far as the artificial lake. It was

3 dirty, polluted water with tadpoles inside. It was yellow in colour. And

4 then 100 or 200 of us would come, and while filling up those buckets we

5 would muddy the water even further. The second group that would come

6 after us would have to use that muddied water. We would drink that water

7 and we would cook the food with that water and we used it for hygiene.

8 Q. What about drinking water? Where did that come from? Did you get

9 any?

10 A. At first, as I was saying -- so when I moved from the isolation

11 cell to shed number 1, we were given water in an army cup or -- and we

12 would share it out amongst ourselves. But that was not sufficient. In a

13 jerrycan which we would pour into a cup later on. However, this was water

14 from the regular supply network that existed at the time. Later on, this

15 network was totally switched off. And as far as I can recollect, maybe

16 the water tank came. I think it did. A military tank -- truck with

17 water.

18 Later we were given these jerrycans or buckets, and we carried the

19 water from the lake, and this was the water that we also drank. After

20 that -- but this was near the end, maybe in August or September -- there

21 were some taps made, water taps. I think that every shed had two or three

22 of these water taps. But I can't remember now. I think it was the

23 International Red Cross that provided these. They brought some large

24 containers with water. And then we were able to pour that water from

25 those taps.

1 Q. What happened when winter came on? Because you were there till

2 December. Were you provided with extra bedding or clothing or anything of

3 that nature by the camp authorities?

4 A. From the camp authorities, in those stables there was earth and

5 concrete on the floor, maybe a bit of hay or some bushes that we cut

6 outside and collected and laid out on the floor. We did receive some

7 blankets from Merhamet but very few, so that there would be one blanket to

8 five or six men. And we would lay it out on the floor and lie on it.

9 Afterwards, when the International Red Cross came, then we got blankets,

10 sufficient quantities, if one could call it that, two or three blankets.

11 So we could put one below us and cover ourselves with another, so that

12 everyone had one or two blankets. From the International Red Cross --

13 Q. I'm sorry.

14 A. [In English] Okay.

15 Q. Can I ask about, then, the aid that Merhamet was delivering. Did

16 you receive all of the -- well, what happened when aid was delivered?

17 Perhaps you can tell us that.

18 A. [Interpretation] Merhamet occasionally, using a blue Deutz 5-tonne

19 lorry would bring some food and clothing that they had collected. This

20 was aid of Muslim citizens in Banja Luka organised by members of the

21 Merhamet. Via Merhamet, we occasionally received parcels from family

22 members. So these parcels started arriving perhaps after a month. I

23 don't know exactly when. But I remember the first Merhamet lorry

24 arriving. I recognised it outside. I recognised the neighbour of mine

25 from Sanski Most, Brkljac. A tall man. He used to be a football player.

1 And I saw them unloading the parcels in front of the entrance on the road.

2 It's hard to say how much there was, but like this area here shall we say,

3 a circle, the circular area in front of me. Then the Merhamet truck drove

4 off, and the military policeman examined those parcels and that's what

5 they did each time.

6 Each parcel would be examined, and they would take what they

7 wanted. In most cases cigarettes, some sweets, if there were any, or a

8 piece of clothing. After that, they would make a list, and that list

9 would be read out to people in the stables telling them that they had

10 parcels. And then those detainees would go out to pick up their parcels.

11 I received a parcel once from my aunts in Banja Luka, and half of it had

12 been taken and half left. How often these parcels arrived, it is hard to

13 say, but maybe weekly or once in a fortnight, on Wednesdays -- I don't

14 know which day. But it was significant.

15 For hygiene, I know that we once received those small soaps -- red

16 soaps. They were all the same. We couldn't all get one. There wasn't

17 enough to go around. As far as I remember, this was sent by Caritas.

18 That was all, until the UNHCR brought us some French soaps. We were

19 filthy, and we had insects and lice. However, later on we did our best to

20 clean ourselves up.

21 Q. All right. Finally on the topic of the conditions and the food.

22 When you entered Manjaca, how much did you weigh?

23 A. I was arrested in Sanski Most weighing about 90 kilogrammes, and I

24 think I lost between 20 and 30 kilogrammes, from the time of my arrest

25 after two months -- when I was at Manjaca. Later on, when I left I had

1 about 70 or 75 kilos. But the International Red Cross or the UNHCR

2 started bringing in aid. Then the food improved.

3 MS. KORNER: Now, Your Honour, I don't know what the situation is,

4 whether --

5 JUDGE AGIUS: The situation was like this, Ms. Korner. I was

6 obviously following the direct examination and watching the witness at the

7 same time.

8 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I have a few more -- what I'm really

9 asking is -- I have a few more --

10 JUDGE AGIUS: I think he can take a little -- a few more

11 questions, and then I think we better stop.

12 MS. KORNER: Well, Your Honour, what I was about to say was if

13 Your Honour and the interpreters can manage, I can complete the Manjaca

14 thing before 6.00, because I'm going to now deal with simply with the

15 visitors and then ask him to look at the video. I'm in Your Honours'

16 hands. If Your Honour --

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. How long would you expect that to last?

18 MS. KORNER: I would imagine between -- I should think another

19 half hour or so. But Your Honour, I'm in Your Honours' hands.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's go ahead for the time being, and then we'll

21 see.

22 MS. KORNER:

23 Q. You mentioned, Judge, sometime ago some of the military officers

24 who came -- or the military who came to the camp. Were there also

25 visitors -- and I think -- I'm sorry. You've already told us. There were

1 people you recognised from Banja Luka who visited. Can you name -- can

2 you tell us who those people were?

3 A. There were visits on a number of occasions by groups. I

4 recognised some people because I used to go to secondary school in Banja

5 Luka. And through my responsible work that I did, I had contacts with

6 various institutions in Banja Luka before the war, and that is how I met

7 many people. Many used to go to school with me or to university with me.

8 MS. KORNER: Just pause a minute, sir. I think there may be a

9 problem.

10 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Ms. Korner, go ahead. But keep in mind that in

12 about ten minutes -- eight, ten minutes we -- not we. They need to change

13 the tape.

14 MS. KORNER: Well, Your Honour, it may well be that perhaps the

15 answer is then to complete the narrative of the camp and leave the video

16 until after the break -- after -- I mean, when he comes back. I mean ...

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Well, I wasn't intending to have another break. I

18 was intending to bring this -- today's session to an end, to a close.

19 MS. KORNER: Yes. No. That's what I mean, Your Honour. Rather

20 than waiting till we change the tapes. Judge Draganovic is coming back in

21 two weeks time. And we can --

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Oh, I see.

23 MS. KORNER: Yes.

24 Q. I'm sorry. Sir. You interrupted -- I interrupted you, rather.

25 You knew these people from Banja Luka. Can you just name some of the

1 people who visited who you knew.

2 A. I would see when they came Prstojevic Dubravko. He went to

3 secondary school with me, and I knew him from there. He would tour the

4 camp two or three times. As far as I was able to learn, he was a Minister

5 for Information or something like that, on behalf of the corps or

6 something. Anyway, with him there would be some journalists. I saw Vlado

7 Slijepcevic, who worked for Serbian radio and television from Bosanska

8 Gradiska. Yes. I know he came from there. I knew him. Then the camp

9 was also visited by Stojan Zupljanin and Nenad Balaban. They were

10 together. I knew them too, and I knew them well.

11 Q. Nenad Balaban, what did he do? What was his job?

12 A. What I knew at the time was that I think he was head of the

13 military security of the 1st Corps. And Zupljanin was head of the CSB in

14 Banja Luka. Balaban was, I think, in a military uniform, and Zupljanin

15 was in civilian clothes then. They entered the camp, together with the

16 camp commander, Popovic. And I was in the area known as the kitchen or

17 the dining room. It is the area used to stack hay with a cover. And as

18 they were on tour of the camp, I had contacts with them. We stopped --

19 all three of them stopped to talk to me. I asked them something: "What

20 is this? Why is this? And what's going to happen to us?" And I was

21 given an answer. I also recognised some representatives of the police and

22 the Banja Luka public security centre, Mirko Bojinovic, who was a lawyer

23 and with whom I was on good terms before the war, a good friend. And they

24 had ranks -- senior police ranks. And they were on tour, and I saw them

25 visiting the horse shed.

1 Q. Okay.

2 MR. ACKERMAN: Excuse me, just a moment.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Ackerman.

4 MR. ACKERMAN: I hate to interrupt, Your Honour, but I want to

5 make this request before the tape actually runs out. From here I'm quite

6 certain I can see the piece of paper the witness is referring to now has

7 writing on both sides of it, unless my old eyes deceive me, which I

8 concede is possible. But I think it has writing on both sides, and we

9 have a copy on one side, on one page. And I would request that all of the

10 pages, both pages, that -- if Your Honour wants to inquire if he has used

11 them to refresh his memory in any way, I think that would be appropriate.

12 But if that's the case, I think we're entitled to have all of the papers

13 that he has brought with him, not just one side of one page. And so I

14 make that request specifically.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Can I see that -- the paper that he has in front of

16 him, that he's showing us.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That -- this is this -- the piece of

18 paper. During the last break, I just made some underlining to remind

19 myself. I put "toilet," "bathing," "wake up at 5.00," "stables,"

20 "epidemics," "dishes were not washed." So it is on this same piece of

21 paper that I added a few lines. So please copy it.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Please, usher, let me see the paper.

23 [Trial Chamber confers].

24 JUDGE AGIUS: No. It is the same paper, but it is -- according to

25 me, it is obvious that there are some additions at the bottom of what

1 appears to be the first page, and then there is something written on the

2 back, just four lines, which to me appears to have been written before

3 these three lines were added in the first page. In other words, what you

4 have on the back here seems to have been there before you put these three

5 lines here; is that correct?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think I added what is on the back

7 during the break, while I was concentrating, to make sure I didn't forget

8 any details. I put down these brief notes.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Anyway, let's have this photocopied first, please,

10 on both sides. And we'll give it back to the witness immediately.

11 Yes, Mr. Ackerman.

12 MR. ACKERMAN: He's also indicated that he has no objection to

13 having the other paper copied too. He has another sheet of paper in his

14 pocket that he had --

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah. But I will not ask him to produce that paper

16 if he's not going to make reference to it.

17 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, there is -- on this first page you

18 will see that at the bottom, before he added anything, there is a sentence

19 that is half done. And I --

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. But he said before that he was not going to

21 make reference -- to refresh his memory to the second page.

22 MR. ACKERMAN: Would you ask him if he has looked at it any time

23 today to refresh his memory.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: I will.

25 Have you looked at the second page to refresh your memory during

1 today's testimony? Not before or during the break because that's

2 different.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I haven't looked at it, because I

4 didn't need that piece of paper. It was important for me to have the

5 names so I don't make a mistake. And when explaining the conditions in

6 the camp, I just briefly noted down the things I needed to tell you about.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Fauveau.

8 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I fully

9 respect your decision. I wish to inform you, however, that I can read the

10 contents of this document, and this document could have very great

11 importance on this case.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: What importance, Madam Fauveau, if I may ask?

13 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes. I'll be glad to

14 explain it to you but not in the presence of the witness.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Photocopy that document, please.

16 Can we have the second page too? Do you have any objection to

17 having the second page photocopied?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have no objection.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: So can we have the second page photocopied as well.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Excuse me. Only let me just have a

21 look to see what it says.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: In the meantime, Ms. Korner, you may continue.

23 We need to change the tape now, unless you want to stop here and

24 resume after the break.

25 MS. KORNER: I think so -- sir, I I'm sorry.

1 I think, Your Honours, if I can finish the people who came to the

2 camp as a discrete subject.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. So we'll change the tape now and we'll finish

4 immediately after.

5 Yes. Please go ahead.

6 MS. KORNER:

7 Q. Judge, you were talking about seeing Zupljanin and Balaban. And

8 you said you spoke to them, saying what was going to happen, and that you

9 got an answer. Who gave you an answer, and what was it?

10 A. Balaban first asked me, "What are you doing here, and why are you

11 here?" I laughed when I heard this question. I said, "Well, you should

12 know why I'm here." He asked whether any other colleagues were there, any

13 other judges or lawyers. I said that Suad Sabic, a lawyer, was also

14 there. He was a colleague. He was in another camp. And I asked

15 Zupljanin, "What's going to happen to us?" He said, "Everything will be

16 fine. You'll be released. No one will be hurt." And Balaban also told

17 me at the end, "It's better for you to be there than -- it's better for

18 you to be here than in a trench." That was supposed to be a consolation

19 of some kind. And that's what we spoke about.

20 Q. Were there any members -- I'm sorry. Was there one politician in

21 particular who visited and went round all the stables?

22 A. On one occasion, sometime in the summer -- I can't remember the

23 exact date -- one politician did appear. He was from Banja Luka. I think

24 it was Vojo Kupresanin who represented the government of the Autonomous

25 Region of Krajina. And he represented the Crisis Staff of the ARK. He

1 was wearing civilian clothes. I think he had a tie on. He visited all

2 the stables. At the time I was in the kitchen. I was in the stable when

3 he was in my stables, and then I went to the kitchen. He then visited the

4 other stables, so that I could hear what he had to say. He was talking

5 about something -- I can't remember it very well, but he said something to

6 the effect of -- he said we would be released quite soon. "Those who have

7 blood on their hands, they will be held accountable," he said. I saw the

8 people clap. They probably thought that they really would be released.

9 But even then I knew that we wouldn't be released and that we wouldn't

10 return home. I felt sick.

11 Q. Do you -- I'm sorry. Do you know if anybody did get released as a

12 direct result of any intervention by any high-ranking politician, or

13 military man, or any sort of eminent figure?

14 A. I heard that some individuals had been released, but very few

15 people -- this concerns very few people. I heard that they had given

16 money -- members of their families had given money and they were

17 released. So I know for sure that Nijaz Halilovic was released. He was

18 from Sanski Most. And as I explained earlier on, he was a commander or

19 chief of the Territorial Defence up until the time that the Territorial

20 Defence was dismantled. He wasn't in the Manjaca camp for very long, and

21 I can remember the day when he told me that he was leaving and Branko

22 Basara came to the fetch him. And I think that Branko Basara was a

23 militant and took him away. He was the commander of the 6th Krajina

24 Brigade, Branko Basara was when I met --

25 Q. Just pause for a moment. It's being typed on the screen as

1 Pasara. I think you're saying Basara, "B."

2 A. Yes. He was the commander of the 6th Krajina Brigade, the Sanska

3 Brigade. He had Halilovic in his flat in Banja Luka. He -- Halilovic

4 spent a few days there. That's what Halilovic told me after the war. And

5 he then got him out through Belgrade, through Serbia, and took him to

6 Hungary, because his father worked abroad and put up the money.

7 Q. I also know that certain other individuals were released from the

8 camp, such as Dr. Flat from Kljuc and Miralem, who was a baker. I

9 don't know what his surname is exactly -- and some other individuals. I

10 also saw my president -- the president of the district court in Banja

11 Luka, Jovo Rosic. He also went to the camp. He entered through the

12 gate. He was in civilian clothing. I didn't appear before him because I

13 didn't want to have any contact with him. I don't know why he went there,

14 why he went to the Manjaca camp. He was the president of the high

15 court -- that is to say, of the district court in Banja Luka. I think

16 that he came on two occasions. Perhaps he had certain tasks to carry out.

17 I also saw the judge of the military court of the 1st Corps.

18 Q. And who was he, his name? Do you remember?

19 A. Just a minute. Just a minute so that I can concentrate. I'll

20 remember the name later on.

21 I saw Radovan Stanic.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: If you have the name on the list, you can refer to

23 the list.

24 MS. KORNER: Well, I wonder if I can be permitted to lead the list

25 that he gave in his statement. It's probably simplest. And there's no

1 dispute about this. Right.

2 Q. Sir, is it -- Judge, is it right that the judge of the military

3 court in Banja Luka -- there were two -- was somebody called Mirko

4 Adamovic?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And there was somebody else called Sveto Davidovic?

7 A. That's correct. I was thinking of them. And above all, I was

8 thinking of the first person, the first person you mentioned he was the

9 judge in the military court. Mirko Adamovic. That's right. He was

10 born in Sanski Most. I saw him.

11 I saw Radovan Stanic, who was a judge -- or rather, the president

12 of the court in Sanski Most. And he was in fact Serbian -- he was a

13 member of the Serbian public security. And he interrogated the inmates in

14 Sanski Most in a police station, in Krings and elsewhere. And he went to

15 Manjaca to interrogate people.

16 Q. Was any sort of judicial hearing with any of these judges who

17 visited ever held at the camp for any of the prisoners -- or first of all,

18 at the camp?

19 A. As far as I know, no. There were no trials, no hearings. But

20 they probably came to take statements of some kind.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Shall we stop here, Ms. Korner?

22 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, yes. That seems an appropriate moment.

23 Your Honour might perhaps care to explain --

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.

25 MS. KORNER: Thank you.

1 JUDGE AGIUS: [Microphone not activated] Judge, I suppose you have

2 already been put in the picture. There is going to be a break now, during

3 which you will return home. But then you will be required to come back to

4 The Hague to continue giving your evidence. You will be informed

5 beforehand when you will be required here, and you will receive the usual

6 assistance to be able to come here. And on that occasion -- that will be

7 sometime in May -- I don't have the exact date --

8 MS. KORNER: The 13th of May, Your Honour.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: The 13th of May you are probably expected to

10 continue your testimony. And on that day, you -- Ms. Korner will continue

11 her direct examination. And following that, during that week, you will be

12 cross-examined by the Defence teams.

13 I thank you for having come here to give evidence, and we will

14 meet again, please God, on the 13th of May.

15 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, it's probably hardly necessary, but

16 there's every likelihood that Judge Draganovic may run into other

17 witnesses when he returns back to Sanski Most -- potential witnesses.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.

19 Judge, I need hardly explain to you the need and the importance

20 that between now and your return to The Hague to continue your evidence,

21 your testimony, you do not discuss these matters with any -- with anyone,

22 particularly persons that may be giving evidence or may have already given

23 evidence here. I think as a judge I don't need to explain to you the

24 importance of this, because I'm sure you understand it.

25 Yes. Anything else from the witness?

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1 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, no.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. The witness may be escorted out of the

3 courtroom.

4 Anything else before we adjourn? So we'll meet on the -- what's

5 the ...?

6 MS. KORNER: 7th of May, Your Honour.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: 7th. So we'll meet on the 7th. Have a nice

8 weekend.

9 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I think we're scheduled for 9.00 --

10 for the morning sessions again starting the 7th of May, unless ...

11 JUDGE AGIUS: May, I think, is all morning.

12 MR. ACKERMAN: I think so.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: I think so. If I remember well, it is always in the

14 morning, yes.

15 MR. ACKERMAN: All right.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: And then June we revert to -- not the whole

17 month but the most part of June is in the afternoon.

18 [Trial Chamber and legal officer confer]

19 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned

20 at 5.45 p.m., to be reconvened on Tuesday,

21 the 7th day of May, 2002, at 9.00 a.m.

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