1 Monday, 3 June 2002

2 [Open session]

3 --- Upon commencing at 2.17 p.m.

4 [The accused entered court]

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Could we call the case, please, Madam Registrar.

6 Thank you.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. This is the case number,

8 IT-99-36-T, the Prosecutor versus Radoslav Brdjanin and Momir Talic.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Madam Registrar.

10 Mr. Brdjanin, good afternoon to you. Can you hear me in a

11 language that you can understand?

12 THE ACCUSED BRDJANIN: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your

13 Honour. I can hear you and understand you.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. You may sit down.

15 General Talic, good afternoon to you. Can you hear me in a

16 language that you can understand?

17 THE ACCUSED TALIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours.

18 I can hear you in a language I understand.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. You may sit down.

20 Appearances for the Prosecution.

21 I think that needs to be cleaned off, because otherwise

22 we'll run the risk of a short circuit.

23 I think in the meantime, while that's being done, you may

24 proceed.

25 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, Joanna Korner, assisted by case manager

1 Denise Gustin for the Prosecution.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, and good afternoon to you.

3 Appearances for Mr. Brdjanin.

4 MR. ACKERMAN: Good afternoon, Your Honours. I'm John Ackerman.

5 I appear with Marela Jevtovic and Milan Trbojevic.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Good afternoon, Mr. Ackerman.

7 Appearances for General Talic.

8 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon,

9 Mr. President, Your Honours. I'm Natasha Ivanovic-Fauveau representing

10 General Talic.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Madam Fauveau.

12 I think one ought to advise the technicians in case they require

13 to enter the room and --

14 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour. Your Honour. The technician just

15 informed me that we need to break for 20 minutes because we need to take

16 the machine out. The water is going to damage the machine.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Otherwise there will be problems.

18 JUDGE TAYA: Yes. I apologise. I apologise.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: I have done that before. And that's why I'm saying

20 that we will probably need a break because I know what can happen.

21 Ms. Korner and Mr. Ackerman and Madam Fauveau, we'll resume in 20

22 minutes -- 20 minutes. Okay. In 20 minutes time.

23 --- Break taken at 2.21 p.m.

24 --- On resuming at 2.46 p.m.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. -- Sorry about that delay. Ms. Korner.

1 Thank you.

2 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, there are just a couple of

3 administrative matters. The first is somewhat unfortunate.

4 When there was an application by Mr. Cayley last week that the

5 witness that was called by Mr. Nicholls should have protective measures,

6 we were somewhat in haste and we said the next pseudonym up was BT22.

7 That was from the protective measures we'd applied for. Regrettably

8 what wasn't picked up by anybody was that there had been an earlier

9 application by Ms. Sutherland, I think it was, to treat -- to call a

10 witness BT22. So we went through the whole of that session on Friday --

11 whenever it was -- calling him Witness BT22 well, not calling him, but

12 it's headed. So we've now got two BT22s. I don't think he was addressed

13 as Witness BT22, but all we need I think is probably a correction to the

14 transcript that he will now become BT23 and a notation to that effect on

15 the list.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: That shouldn't be a big problem unless anyone else

17 sees any major problem that I don't foresee. But the other witness that

18 Ms. Sutherland applied to have BT22 --

19 MS. KORNER: It was called --

20 JUDGE AGIUS: He was called already --

21 MS. KORNER: Yes. Otherwise it wouldn't have mattered.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: No. I think -- Madam Registrar. What can we do.

23 I think it shouldn't present any major difficulties. There may be one

24 instance or two, maybe, when I myself may have referred to him as BT22,

25 but I don't -- not directly, but indirectly I may have. So one might need

1 to go through the transcript to figure that out. In any case, we can just

2 enter for the record that with reference to the last witness that gave

3 evidence during the sitting of Friday, 31st of May, the Trial Chamber

4 notes that the pseudonym applied to the same witness should be BT23 and

5 not BT22, as inadvertently established earlier. Accordingly, all

6 documents related to his evidence, including the transcript of the said

7 sitting, where applicable, will be amended accordingly, so as to reflect

8 what is stated above. And we'll leave it at that.

9 And if you have difficulties, Defence and Prosecution, and you

10 want us to do something else, we'll do it, because this is things that

11 happen.

12 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I don't think it should cause any

13 difficulties. As I say, it's not one --

14 JUDGE AGIUS: No, I don't think so.

15 MS. KORNER: Calling throughout.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't think so. Except that we have to take care

17 with our secretaries to have that done as well, because our records show

18 him as BT22 as well.

19 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, then while we're on the subject of

20 witnesses and pseudonyms, we today -- although it's a little earlier than

21 the three weeks disclosed to the Defence -- BT21 and Your Honours -- we

22 also supplied copies to Your Honours' legal officer so that Your Honours

23 can see the statement, although I say it's an advance.

24 The last matter is this: It was an error made by me when giving

25 the List of Documents that this witness was going to look at, I said --

1 I'll just get my own list. Sorry. I said 781.4. In fact, it's 7 -- it's

2 P785. But Your Honour, when we get to it, I'll put it up on the ELMO.

3 It's one of the documents that Judge Draganovic looked at.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. I thank you, Ms. Korner.

5 MS. KORNER: And I don't think it's desperate.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay.

7 MS. KORNER: And Your Honour, finally just this: I think Your

8 Honour said on Friday that we would be sitting just till 6.30. So do I

9 take it that the breaks will be 15 minutes rather than 30 minutes?

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Well, this was what I was coming to before we had

11 the waterfall.

12 In these matters, as I tried to explain to you last week, I try

13 first to make sure that you have discussed it amongst yourselves, and

14 secondly that none of the technical staff and the interpreters have reason

15 to complain. I mean, that's -- that's my major concern, because

16 ultimately half an hour here and half an hour there doesn't change much.

17 But I'm sure that everyone would be happier to leave this place 6 -- half

18 an hour earlier. It does matter.

19 My suggestion to you was as follows, that we would start at 2.15

20 sharp and break at 3.45. That's the first session of an hour and 30

21 minutes. Then we will have a quarter of an hour break, resuming at 4.00.

22 And that second session will be of a hour and 15 minutes, from 4.00 to

23 5.15. And then we will resume at 5.30 and finish at 6.30 with the

24 understanding that if at any given time the Defence require longer breaks

25 in order to consult with their clients, because that may vary from

1 day-to-day, then obviously we will have to make adjustments accordingly,

2 not necessarily meaning that we will finish at 7.00. We could still

3 finish at 6.00. I think we will need to adjust the time schedule as we go

4 along and even when necessary. But if these -- if this schedule that I am

5 suggesting to you is convenient and agreeable to all of you - and that

6 includes the staff on either side of the courtroom - then we can go along

7 those lines.

8 MS. KORNER: [Microphone not activated] Your Honour, in the light

9 of today, are we going to have just the one break.

10 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. That's the second thing I was going to suggest

12 for today. If it's agreeable to you, that instead of having two breaks

13 today, we will have just one break of 20 minutes or 25 minutes.

14 MS. KORNER: Twenty minutes I'm sure will -- I'm sorry. I

15 haven't got my microphone on. 20 minutes will be fine.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Mr. Ackerman, is that agreeable?

17 MR. ACKERMAN: I think so, Your Honour.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: And Madam Fauveau?

19 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Absolutely, Mr. President.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: And may I have feedback response from the

21 interpreters.

22 THE INTERPRETER: Yes, Your Honour. It will be fine.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you. And the technicians.

24 Okay. Thank you. So --

25 MS. KORNER: And Your Honour, the witness I understand is in the

1 witness waiting room.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Usher.

3 May I ask you how long you anticipate your direct examination of

4 this witness to last, Ms. Korner.

5 MS. KORNER: It's quite difficult to say. I'm going to on the

6 basis, I think Your Honours have heard enough for the time being about the

7 build-up of the political events. I'm not going to go through much detail

8 of that. It will certainly take all of today and possibly something of

9 tomorrow.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: The witness is aware of this.

11 MS. KORNER: He knows he's going to be here for a couple of days,

12 yes.

13 [The witness entered court]

14 JUDGE AGIUS: There are no protective measures in place here.

15 Mr. Stojic --

16 MS. KORNER: No. Wrong witness, Your Honour. This is

17 Dr. Sabanovic.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Yeah. Because they put 7.76 in front of me.

19 Yes. Dr. Sabanovic, good afternoon to you.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honour.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: You've come here to give evidence before this

22 Tribunal. And before you do so, according to our rules, you are required

23 to enter a declaration -- to make a declaration that you will tell us the

24 truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. It's a kind of oath

25 that you take, undertaking to tell us the truth.

1 The statement that you are asked to make is on a piece of paper

2 that you have in front of you. And I kindly ask you to read it out loud.

3 Thank you.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

5 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

6 WITNESS: ENIS SABANOVIC

7 [Witness answered through interpreter]

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Now, just very quickly, sir, I will explain to you

9 the -- what's going to happen. First of all, I'm the Presiding Judge, and

10 I'm flanked by the other two Judges composing this Trial Chamber;

11 Judge Agius from Malta, Judge Janu from the Czech Republic, and Judge Taya

12 from Japan.

13 You will first be asked a series of questions by the Prosecutor,

14 who today is represented by senior counsel Ms. Joanna Korner. And the

15 Prosecution team is immediately to your right.

16 To your left in the front row you have four persons. The three

17 that are nearest to you represent the Defence team for Mr. Radoslav

18 Brdjanin, who stands accused here; while the lady at the extreme right of

19 the front row is counsel for General Momir Talic, who also stands accused

20 here.

21 The three persons you see right in front of you are the members of

22 the registry. The rest is legal staff.

23 The procedure is you will first be asked -- be examined directly

24 by the Prosecution, and that examination is expected to last at least

25 today for sure and maybe some part of tomorrow. After that, you will be

1 cross-examined by the two Defence teams. And when that's finished, you

2 will be able to go home. Thank you.

3 The important thing is that you try to answer the question, the

4 whole question, and nothing but the question. We don't want long

5 stories. We want the truth. But please stick -- you are a professional

6 man. Stick to the question that is put to you either from the Prosecution

7 or the Defence. Don't try to go off at a tangent or give us explanations

8 that we don't need or you haven't been asked to give.

9 Ms. Korner, the witness is in your hands.

10 MS. KORNER: [Microphone not activated] Thank you.

11 Q. Yes. Sir, could you give us your name.

12 THE INTERPRETER: Your microphone, counsel, please.

13 MS. KORNER:

14 Q. Sir, could you give us your name, please.

15 A. Enis Sabanovic.

16 Q. I think if you pull your chair in a little, you'll find it

17 easier. I think you're sitting a bit far away. Thank you.

18 A. [In English] Okay.

19 Q. And were you born on the 24th of June, 1942?

20 A. [Interpretation] Yes.

21 Q. And are you by religion -- are you by religion a Muslim?

22 A. Yes, I am.

23 Q. And I think it's right, Dr. Sabanovic, that you have specialised

24 as a cardiologist since 1984.

25 A. Until that year. Between 1980 and 1984.

1 Q. Okay. I'm so sorry. You're quite right. Having qualified

2 from -- or graduated from medical school in 1968.

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And as you said, you specialised in cardiology for four years.

5 And having completed your specialisation did you move to the medical

6 centre in Sanski Most?

7 A. Yes, I did. But I worked there before. I had already worked in

8 Sanski Most.

9 Q. Did you in fact become the chief of that clinic or another clinic

10 in Sanski Most?

11 A. Yes, in Sanski Most. The internal medicine ward.

12 Q. By the time of the outbreak of conflict in 1992, what position did

13 you hold in Sanski Most?

14 A. In the health centre Sanski Most, there is a detached department

15 of the hospital in Prijedor. And I was head of this internal medicine

16 department.

17 Q. Now, again at the time of the outbreak of the conflict in 1992,

18 were you married?

19 A. I was, yes.

20 Q. And of what ethnicity is your wife?

21 A. She's a Serb.

22 Q. And did you have children?

23 A. Three sons.

24 Q. In Sanski Most, whereabouts did you live? I'm going to ask you,

25 actually, if you could look at a map which has been marked P757.1.

1 MS. KORNER: I'm going ask that it be put on the ELMO.

2 Q. And so if you could indicate to the Trial Chamber the area roughly

3 in which you lived.

4 A. Right here, in the centre of the town on the left bank of the

5 Sana, near the municipal hall of Sanski Most, because across the river is

6 the municipal hall of Sanski Most, which is on the right bank, and I am on

7 the left bank right next to the Sava, in the centre of the town,

8 Omladinska Street BB.

9 Q. Thank you very much. Was that area inhabited by Serbs, Muslims,

10 and Croats, or was it a -- was there one particular ethnicity?

11 A. Multi. It was multi-ethnic, Muslims and Serbs and Catholics, and

12 there were even some Romany not far away.

13 MS. KORNER: You can take the map away.

14 Q. Did you in 1990 become a member of the executive board for the SDA

15 party in Sanski Most?

16 A. That's right.

17 Q. But -- yes. I'm sorry. And as a member of the executive board,

18 did you also attend meetings of the municipal assembly?

19 A. Yes, I did. I was a councilman in the municipal assembly, the

20 Assembly of the Municipality of Sanski Most.

21 Q. Now, I want to ask you about the events that took place in 1991

22 when the war with Croatia started. Was there then a -- an order for

23 the -- for men to report to the army, mobilisation?

24 A. Yes. 99 per cent were summoned to Jasenovac which was the

25 border between Croatia and Bosnia.

1 Q. Were you involved in the issuing of medical certificates for

2 military-aged men who did not respond to the draft?

3 A. Yes. For them and actually to everybody who asked me for it. I

4 was a physician. And as the head of the internal medicine service, I

5 issued certificates regarding somebody's fitness -- rather, somebody's

6 mobilisation, whether people could go to war or not. And I believe that I

7 kept back some 1800 to maybe 2.000 people. I helped them not go to war

8 because I did not think that one should go to war.

9 Q. In other words, are you saying that some of the people to whom you

10 issued medical certificates, in fact were fit to go?

11 A. Yes. There were those who were able-bodied. And let me also tell

12 you. There were equally Serbs and Croats and Muslims amongst them. There

13 were even Serbs.

14 Q. And you told us that your belief was these people shouldn't have

15 to go to war.

16 A. Right. I was not under obligation, and I didn't go to any war. I

17 did not think it was time to wage war. I did not think that war was a way

18 leading to the solution of problems, be it between states or

19 municipalities or whatever.

20 Q. Now, as a result of the medical certificates you had issued, were

21 you visited by two officers from the military court in Banja Luka?

22 A. Yes. It didn't happen only once. It happened two or three

23 times. They were not officials. They were officers in the Yugoslav

24 People's Army. One was a major, and another one was Captain First Class.

25 The first time I think came two and on another occasion I believe came

1 three.

2 Q. And did they want to verify the validity of these medical

3 certificates?

4 A. Yes. They did want to verify it, but truth to tell I disagreed

5 with that, because they were not the ones. That is, people who were

6 waiting in front of the surgery, they fled when those officers turned up.

7 And I told them that I was in the right, that those were people who should

8 not go to war, who should work, that Bosnia was an underdeveloped country,

9 or rather, a country where there was no reason for war or go to war, so

10 that they left -- they greeted me politely and left. But they were there

11 on two occasions.

12 Q. And eventually -- well, did they tell you that you had no right to

13 issue the medical certificates?

14 A. No. They did not say I did not have a right to issue those

15 certificates. They simply said that they would examine it all and that it

16 wouldn't be all right if too many men were relieved of the war, that is,

17 of the army duty.

18 Q. Now, I want to deal very briefly, if I may, with the events that

19 led to the takeover in Sanski Most. Did the 6th Krajina Brigade take up

20 residence in the area of Sanski Most?

21 A. On the 15th of March, 1992 -- on the 15th or 16th. I am not quite

22 sure about that. Simply, I didn't give it much thought. But it was the

23 15th or 16th or perhaps the 17th of March -- the 6th Krajina Brigade, led

24 by Colonel Basara. I was at a meeting with him two or three times. That

25 is how I know his name. And it was deployed. In it there were no Muslims

1 nor Croats nor Romany. It was solely composed of Serbs. And they came

2 from Lusci -- they went to Lusci Palanka, Sanski Most about 30 kilometres

3 from Sanski Most. And then they were brought to a hill near Sanski Most,

4 quite near it they had heavy weaponry, several officers with them, and

5 yes, their leader was Colonel Basara.

6 Q. And were various checkpoints set up by the army and police around

7 Sanski Most?

8 A. Why, yes. After that, at that time when the 6th Krajina came,

9 there were none. But after that, various checkpoints were set up, and it

10 is quite a fact. I am sorry I have to say that. But they were set up by

11 the Serbs to keep Muslims and Croats under control.

12 Q. Did the non-Serb population, that is, mainly the Catholic or Croat

13 and the Muslim, also set up their own patrols or barricades around the

14 areas that they occupied?

15 A. Yes. Yes. There were such places too. I did not take part in

16 this because I was in the town and I was kept very busy because there were

17 very many sick people. But yes, Muslims and Catholics together set up

18 their guards in their villages to guard their homes at night.

19 Q. Now, did there come a time when you were told that you could no

20 longer go on working?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And who came to tell you that you could no longer go on working?

23 A. Well, let me tell you. Before that, I was sort of a chief. But

24 one morning, on the 25th or the 26th of April, 1992, Mladen Lukic and two

25 or three more members of the Serb Democratic Party came and other fellow

1 physicians came who were Serbs. There was a young intern, Bosko Grubisa

2 and Ljilja Kasagic who was the director of the health centre and some

3 others. I don't really remember them all. And I was literally told then

4 that the Crisis Staff of Sanski Most was relieving me of my office as the

5 director of the specialist service. Ljilja Kasagic is a Serb and she was

6 also removed two days later. And a new physiologist was appointed the

7 director of the health centre. His name was Milutin Dilas. And this

8 young intern, Bosko, he was a member of the Crisis Staff in Sanski Most.

9 He wore a uniform. He was a reserve captain. And he was in a uniform

10 then.

11 Q. All right. I want you to look, please, at a document, P624,

12 please.

13 MS. KORNER: And perhaps we can put the English version up on the

14 ELMO.

15 Q. And if you could look at P624 B, the B/C/S version.

16 MS. KORNER: No. I'd like the witness to have the B/C/S version

17 and the English version on the ELMO. Thanks.

18 Q. If we look, please, at paragraph 8 of that document. If

19 understood --

20 MS. KORNER: Usher, if you could just move up the document

21 slightly on the ELMO. You need to move it up the screen to get --

22 thank you.

23 Q. That's a Crisis Staff decision dated the 24th of April, 1992. And

24 in paragraph 8, it says: "Mladen Lukic, Vinko, and Boro are tasked with

25 preparing the appointment of the acting director of the health centre in

1 Sanski Most. This decision is to be issued on Monday morning, i.e. on the

2 27th of April, 1992." And that -- Vinko and Boro appears Boro Savanovic.

3 And I'm not sure at the moment who Vinko is.

4 A. A long surname. Boro has a very long surname. I can't remember

5 what it is. I knew it, but I've forgotten.

6 Q. Well, don't worry. I think we can see that. Savanovic.

7 A. Yes. One can see it. Savanovic, yes. That's right. Savanovic.

8 Born in the village of Kozica.

9 Q. Now, is that -- are these the people you've told us that

10 Milan Lukic was one of the people who dealt with -- who came to the

11 hospital. Does this refer to what you've just described to us?

12 A. All three of them. Yes.

13 Q. And they also replaced, did they, a Serb who was the head of the

14 health centre?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Do you know why she was replaced?

17 A. Well, because I would not allow to use -- to take the spare parts

18 that belonged to the civil defence, to take all this to Jasenovac. And he

19 [As interpreted] agreed not to send all of these reserve equipment to

20 Jasenovac and that is why they replaced her.

21 Q. Okay. I see. She's she wasn't prepared to send the equipment up

22 to Jasenovac.

23 MS. KORNER: Sorry.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Just for the record -- I mean, it's a minor thing.

25 But the previous -- the witness's reply is -- a person is referred to as a

1 he and a her. So --

2 MS. KORNER: Yes. I think he already told us it was a she.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Exactly.

4 MS. KORNER: Yes.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: But just for the record. I know that, but ...

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Ljilja Kasagic.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: I think you may proceed, Ms. Korner. Sorry about

8 that. But just for the record.

9 MS. KORNER:

10 Q. And were you given an explanation why you had to leave?

11 A. Why? That was evident. Yes, it was explained. Because I was a

12 Muslim, because I was a head there. That is the reason, one sentence. No

13 need for much talk here. They started it, selection, a genocide of

14 Muslims and Croats in Bosnia-Herzegovina. It already started earlier in

15 other parts of Bosnia-Herzegovina. And at that time the turn of Sanski

16 Most came.

17 Q. Did they give you any sort of written document, or was this just a

18 verbal dismissal?

19 A. No document. Only verbally.

20 Q. So after they told you that you were going to have to leave, did

21 you actually continue working any longer at the health centre?

22 A. I think I stayed on for a few days more. And after that, they

23 would not allow me to come back.

24 Q. So after the 26th, 27th of April, you no longer worked at the

25 health centre.

1 A. That's right.

2 Q. Did you see -- I'm going to move on now. So we can take the

3 document away. Thank you.

4 Did you see the attack on the municipal building?

5 A. Yes, I saw it. Because there was only the Sana River between us,

6 between my house and the municipal hall, because we face each other. I am

7 on the left bank about 10 or 15 metres away from the bank, and the

8 municipal hall -- right across the Sava there is the Sanus Hotel and then

9 the municipal hall of Sanski Most. Right across the river.

10 Q. And did you see who was doing the attacking?

11 A. There was no need for me to look. One knew that. I was not

12 there. They were -- the defence were part of the Muslims and Croats, the

13 SDS which had already taken Sanski Most SUP and the power. First they

14 issued an ultimatum to abandon the municipal hall and then they attacked

15 it. And that is the truth. I saw it from my house. It was in late

16 afternoon.

17 Q. Yes. I just want to know who was doing the attacking. The

18 military?

19 A. Why the military. They were all the military. They were all

20 military.

21 Q. Right.

22 A. The domicile population and those who came with the 6th Krajina

23 Brigade, as the army, as -- the Yugoslav People's Army. The 6th

24 Krajinas. But the Serbs were all mobilised, so that they were military,

25 yes, wearing camouflage uniforms. Oh, yes, and the police too.

1 Q. Now, I want to move on to the time of your actual arrest. But

2 before I do that, did you own a weapon?

3 A. No. I don't have one now. I didn't have it before. Never.

4 Q. Before your arrest, did you hear announcements on the radio that

5 anybody with weapons should surrender them?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. I want to move to the day of your arrest. Were you arrested on

8 the 26th of May of 1992 whilst you were at home?

9 A. Yes. If I may, perhaps I can explain briefly. When I read the

10 records, or rather, the statements, there were some dilemma assessed to

11 them namely, I was arrested from home. But my colleague Bosko Grubisa

12 called me around 8.00, that there was a very severe patient and that I

13 should go there because he needed to consult me. And I went there by car,

14 and we examined that patient together, and he told me that the road Banja

15 Luka-Prijedor was Savo Tubje's [phoen] and we agreed about the patient.

16 And as we came out, we saw policemen in front of it. There were two

17 policemen who said that they would see me home. My home is about 400

18 metres away from the hospital. And I said, "Well, why? Why should you?"

19 And we came out and -- yes. There were two more policemen in -- in the

20 car, in their vehicle, a Campanola. But we went to my home and they told

21 me to go in and to put some sports clothes on because they would be taking

22 me for an interview to the police station in Sanski Most. So that I was

23 arrested and I wonder.

24 Q. Okay. --

25 A. I wonder why was I called then because the situation was not all

1 that bad. And where did these policemen right in front of the health

2 centre at the time when I was invited to go there. My colleague was a

3 member of the Crisis Staff. So I came out of the house after I'd put on

4 some sports clothes.

5 Q. Just pause for a moment I'm going to come to the actual arrest?

6 A. Yes. I'm sorry. Yes, please do go on.

7 Q. So what you're saying is that you had gone to the hospital because

8 you'd been asked to examine a patient, and then some policemen escorted

9 you home and there was some other policemen there.

10 A. All four came together by car from the hospital to my house

11 together.

12 Q. Now, once you'd got to your house, is that when you say they told

13 you that you were being arrested?

14 A. No, no. At the time they told me to go inside, to change into

15 sports clothes. Only one of them got out of the van. And told me to come

16 back because they would be taking me to the Crisis Staff for an

17 informative interview. I did so, and as soon as I entered the vehicle I

18 realised what was happening, because I started to be mistreated. And I

19 reached SUP under the feet of these four policemen, under their feet I

20 was. And they had these rifles of this size.

21 Q. So when you got into the car, they made you lie on the floor; is

22 that what you're saying?

23 A. They pushed me down. There was like a bench in the van, and they

24 threw me down and started trampling on me with their feet.

25 Q. Now, you say you were then taken to the SUP. Where were you

1 placed when you got to the SUP?

2 A. When we arrived, there was no interrogation. They took me to the

3 toilet and locked me in there, and I spent just under two days there.

4 Q. Did you have any of your papers with you, your identification

5 papers?

6 A. No. No.

7 Q. What happened to them?

8 A. It was burnt. They were burnt before I left.

9 Q. Before you left what? Your home?

10 A. Yes. The police entered the house. All this was rigged. And

11 they took what they wanted. I think it -- my story would be too long if I

12 were to tell you all the things they took from the house, my documents, my

13 student's booklet, my ID card and everything was burnt.

14 Q. Well, doctor, if you leave it to us we'll tell you and the Judges

15 will tell you when you're getting too long.

16 Are you -- are you saying that at the house before you were put

17 into the van, the police entered your house?

18 A. Yes, yes.

19 Q. And they searched it.

20 A. No. They didn't really search a lot. They were looking for my

21 documents, and they took them. They took my student's booklet, my ID

22 card, my driving licence, and I don't remember the rest. They did ask me

23 about weapons. They didn't find any, nor could they take any because they

24 didn't find any.

25 Q. All right. Sir, you told us that once you arrived at the SUP, you

1 were kept there in a toilet for two days. Were you given any food?

2 A. No.

3 Q. And how big was this toilet?

4 A. Roughly 2 metres -- no, less. 2 by 2, something like that. I'm

5 unable to tell you exactly. I think less than 2 metres by 2. It was a

6 square room.

7 Q. And was there any -- was there a window or ventilation?

8 A. No. No.

9 Q. And so presumably all you had to sit on was the actual toilet

10 itself.

11 A. I forgot to mention, I had handcuffs on my hands. I forgot to

12 mention this. However, in Bosnia it's like a field toilet. It doesn't

13 have a proper toilet to sit on. After a day and a half or two, the police

14 appeared in the evening, about 8.00 or 9.00, and they took me out of that

15 toilet. So it was between one and a half days and two that I spent

16 there. I can't be more precise than that.

17 Q. I just want you to look for a moment, please, at Exhibit -- no,

18 I'm sorry. It's --

19 MS. KORNER: Forgive me, Your Honour.

20 Q. Yes. Could you look, please, at Exhibit P668. And it's the

21 second -- it's the document -- the second page of the document headed

22 "List of the most radical extremists."

23 A. I don't even need to read it.

24 Q. I know you looked at it before, but if we could put again --

25 A. Regardless. Number 4.

1 Q. If you'd just look at the English version.

2 MS. KORNER: No. Could we look at the other, please. It's the

3 English headed "List of the most radical extremists." It's the second

4 page. Yes.

5 Q. And as you've already identified, doctor, are you shown as number

6 4 on that list?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Do you know why you were described as a most radical extremist?

9 A. To tell you the truth, it's not clear to me to this day and never

10 will be. I would bring the whole general staff to Sanski Most of the

11 former Yugoslavia, headed by Petar Gracanin and another 15 generals and

12 the commander of the Banja Luka Corps, and they came to Ostra Luka

13 together with the president of the Sanski Most municipality, and I knew

14 everyone from General Daljevic, who was party secretary attached to the

15 general staff of Yugoslavia. He comes from the same village as I do. I

16 knew several other national heroes, generals that I treated. And once

17 Djurin Predojevic, a national hero from the First World War fell ill

18 staying at his sister's and he fainted in the toilet. I participated and

19 asked for a helicopter from Zagreb to be brought there. They didn't send

20 it, and then we had him sent to Banja Luka and from there to Zagreb to a

21 hospital there. Also, there's a village about 20 kilometres from Sanski

22 Most, and General Daljevic's parents were living there Jelasinovci and

23 Grdanovci and Lusci Palanka, a large number of generals from the Second

24 World War came from those parts, and I was on good terms with all of them.

25 I was a member of the party, of the League of Communists, when I was

1 appointed as head of the health centre. Anyway, most of the Serbs have

2 gone back to Sanski Most. They come to see me even now. I got a plaque

3 from the Serbian civil council saying that -- expressing gratitude to the

4 health centre, saying that there was no distinction by colour, by

5 religion, and so on.

6 So simply I will never understand why. I don't know. Probably

7 because they had this ideology of genocide, annihilation, the creation of

8 a new state without Muslims or Croats. That's a fact; no one can deny it.

9 The director who stage managed all this is here. That is the only reason.

10 There can be no other. I never hurt anyone. Even this summer I was in

11 Banja Luka, for instance, and Dr. Milanovic was vice-president of the

12 Serbian republic, from the very beginning when it was formed. Three

13 months ago I exchanged greetings with him in Banja Luka.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Ackerman.

15 MS. KORNER: I think he's finished. I know what Mr. Ackerman --

16 he's not answering the question. But I think he has, in fact, answered

17 the question, Your Honour. It's a long answer, but it --

18 JUDGE AGIUS: [Microphone not activated] It's -- obviously it's --

19 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Your Honour, please.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Obviously it's an area about which the witness is

21 very sensitive, especially -- I think we have covered it.

22 Do I read you well, Mr. Ackerman?

23 You may proceed, Ms. Korner.

24 MS. KORNER:

25 Q. I just want to ask you about one thing you've just said. You

1 said, Dr. -- You said the director who stage managed all this is here.

2 You were talking about the idea of the creation of a Serbian state. Who

3 do you mean by that?

4 A. Milosevic, because Milosevic was the president of Serbia, the

5 President of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia and the commander of the

6 armed forces and everyone knows how the ideology started.

7 Q. Thank you. I think you've answered the question. Thank you very

8 much, doctor?

9 MS. KORNER: You can take the document away.

10 Q. Now, doctor, you were explaining that you were kept in this toilet

11 without food or water for two days. What happened to you then?

12 A. The police came -- I assume it's the police. I don't know. I

13 can't even say, because they had a white ribbon here, and it said "the

14 Serbian youth" on it. Four or five of these young guys appeared, and they

15 took me to Betonirka which is about 100 metres from Sanski Most to SUP

16 downhill, to a garage there. This used to be a company for the

17 construction of concrete tubes, and I was shut up in this garage. I had

18 been beaten already, so they didn't feel these beatings I got. I couldn't

19 look through -- I couldn't look at all. My eyes were swollen. I looked

20 like a pig, I must say, with apologies.

21 Q. I'm sorry. You said that you had been beaten already. When were

22 you actually beaten for the first time?

23 A. In the vehicle, in the police vehicle that took me from the house

24 to the SUP of the Crisis Staff, to the toilet there.

25 Q. All right. And so you -- what, you said that you were under their

1 feet. Were they doing something with their feet at that stage in the

2 vehicle?

3 A. Yes. But they were wearing boots with rubber soles that do not

4 cause such bruises as the blows in my head with fists and so on.

5 Q. Now, the people who took you from the toilet to Betonirka, did

6 they do anything to you?

7 A. Those were the people who hit me so badly that I looked awful. I

8 couldn't see on either of my eyes because of the swellings, and my head

9 was swollen and bruised all over.

10 Q. What were they using to beat you?

11 A. They mostly used their fists, straight into the head. I had no

12 injuries on my body from them; only my head.

13 Q. Did they say anything while they were hitting you with their

14 fists?

15 A. I don't know, to tell you the truth, what they said and what they

16 didn't say. If I were to recount it all, it would take a long time. They

17 swore at me and so on. All kinds of words were used by them.

18 Q. Now, once you were taken to Betonirka, where were you put?

19 A. There were several more people there; I can't tell you how many,

20 but about 10 to 15 were there. And I sat down there in Betonirka, and

21 that's how it started. They would come in the evening. They would call

22 me out, take me outside and beat me. I must admit there was a policeman

23 that I knew from before the war who was a guard, and he wouldn't let

24 them. And I must admit that. The truth is the truth.

25 Q. So one of the policemen stopped other people beating you.

1 A. For several nights. And the camp commander -- or rather the

2 commander of this prison Miladin Papic who used to be police commander and

3 I treated his family. He once resigned his position when he saw me and

4 what I looked like. If it hadn't been for him, I -- I would have been

5 destroyed there. I wouldn't have reached Manjaca. The beating I got, I

6 got in Sanski Most, before getting to Manjaca. So there are people I need

7 to thank and remember with gratitude for as long as I live.

8 Q. The beatings that you got in Manjaca -- I'm sorry, in the

9 Betonirka, how often -- I'm sorry. I'll start the question again. How

10 long were you kept there for in Betonirka?

11 A. I think we were there until the 3rd, the 3rd, somewhere around

12 there. I'm bound to make mistakes with dates. I didn't really study

13 properly for this. It's not like as if I was sitting for an exam. I

14 apologise for the joke. But while we were there, there were beatings.

15 And also I went on a hunger strike, I want to tell you, for all of five

16 days. In the toilet I didn't eat anything, nor did anyone offer

17 anything. Afterwards they did offer food and water, but I wouldn't take

18 any either. For five days I didn't eat or drink. I saw that that wasn't

19 a good idea, and then I started taking water and so on, because maybe my

20 assessment wasn't a good one. I was indifferent as to whether I lived or

21 died, so I went on like that for five days.

22 Q. You told us that when you got there you think there were about ten

23 people there. Were other people brought in?

24 A. Yes. I saw 10 or 15 people there when I arrived, but afterwards

25 there were up to 50. There was no sitting. We had to stand. There was a

1 small window about 30 by 30 centimetres in size - not bigger than that -

2 there was no air. We were shut up. We had to stand up for days. There

3 was no sitting room, not to mention room to lie down.

4 Q. Did anybody explain to you whilst you were there why you and the

5 other people were being treated like this?

6 A. No. No. It was common knowledge what the policy was and why this

7 was happening.

8 Q. But you've told us that you knew the commander of the police

9 called -- Mr. Papric, I think.

10 A. The commander, that's right. The commander of the prison, yes.

11 Q. Did he never explain to you what was -- why this was being done to

12 you?

13 A. No. He didn't explain either, ever. But he did help me.

14 Otherwise I would have been killed 100 per cent. I must repeat that he

15 resigned at one point at the beginning when he saw what I looked like.

16 Q. Now, you say you think you were in there for about three days or

17 so. Were you then --

18 A. Something like that.

19 Q. Were you then transferred to a place called Hasan Kikic?

20 A. Yes. To the Hasan Kikic hall in Klucka Street in Sanski Most.

21 Q. Yes. Could you just have the map of the photographs back for a

22 moment, that is, 757.1.

23 If you'd just look at the photographs. Number 1 -- and can I tell

24 you the photographs were taken last year, doctor. That's described as

25 Betonirka. Is that what it looked like in 1992? I think you'd better

1 have -- we don't need it on the ELMO.

2 MS. KORNER: If you'd just give it to the witness so he can have a

3 look at it.

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And then at photograph number 3, it has the legend HK school. But

6 is that what the Hasan Kikic school looked like in 1992?

7 A. That's right. Yes, yes. Just like that. That's what it looks

8 like now. And behind is the sports hall belonging to that school, behind

9 this part that is shown on the photograph.

10 Q. Roughly how many people were taken to the sports hall with you?

11 A. Well, let me see. There must have been about 300 to 400 people,

12 because there was a large number of garages, not just one there.

13 Something like that. Afterwards the number increased, so that two days

14 later one night, about 1.00 a.m., about 200 men were brought in by trucks

15 from Kljuc. So we were packed full. It was terrible.

16 Q. Now, at the sports hall, were there --

17 MS. KORNER: Thank you very much. You can get rid of the map

18 now.

19 Q. At the sports hall, were there any beds?

20 A. What do you mean beds? There wasn't room. There were more than

21 500 people in that gym. And if you lie down, you have to lie against the

22 wall. So there were no beds. We didn't need beds. If only they had

23 spared us the beating.

24 Q. What happened if you needed to use a toilet?

25 A. Well, a policeman would escort men. Those of us who were there,

1 we didn't go to the toilet often. We didn't eat much. We were fed

2 rarely. So a policeman would escort people out, and people often didn't

3 want to go. They didn't dare to go to the toilet because they would be

4 beaten on the way there.

5 Q. The people who were guarding you there, were they ordinary

6 policemen or military policemen?

7 A. There was a war. There are no ordinary policemen any more.

8 There's a war on. It's all over. And this is the police. They were all

9 policemen. Now, whether they were military or the other, I don't know.

10 But anyway, they were the police.

11 Q. What sort of uniforms were they wearing? Were they wearing the

12 blue uniforms worn by the police, or were they wearing camouflage?

13 A. There were of both kinds, camouflage and those worn by the former

14 police force that was known at the milicja before the war.

15 Q. Now, you've told us that people wanted to go to the toilet they

16 were beaten. Did other beatings take place? During the night, during the

17 day, or both?

18 A. Let me tell you. This is such a broad question. Every moment,

19 all the time there was beating, especially during the night. It was

20 constant. People were lying in a coma. Three or four men were

21 unconscious. I can't understand that these people survived. To do

22 something like this and not have them treated in neurosurgery, I just

23 can't understand that a man can survive such things. There were -- the

24 treatment we got was such that it cannot be recounted.

25 Q. You were a doctor. Were you allowed to give any sort of medical

1 treatment to any of these people?

2 A. In that gymnasium, next to me about 4 metres away there were four

3 or five men in a coma, unconscious. I couldn't, though I was looking at

4 them, facing them -- I was not allowed to get up and examine them, never

5 mind give them any kind of treatment. No one wanted anyone to be

6 treated. They wanted people to die.

7 Q. Was there anybody who was near you who had, instead of

8 neurological injuries, had any sort of other injuries that you could see?

9 A. Well, right close to me was a Catholic who had been wounded in a

10 village near Sanski Most, and there was shelling from a hill called

11 Magarice by the 6th Krajina Brigade. And the shell hit him here. He

12 had an open wound. I didn't think he would survive because he was never

13 bandaged. He would be taken for dressing, and he would be brought back

14 beaten up. And those who treated him was a dentist. There was so many

15 proper physicians, GPs and specialists, but Davidovic, who was a dentist,

16 treated them, and he would allow people in this condition to be beaten,

17 beaten to death, without even treating their wounds, which is why they

18 came to him.

19 Q. Could you just pause for a moment you indicated when you were

20 describing this man's wound -- and I just want you to confirm this is

21 right, because we need a note of it -- you indicated the right, as it

22 were, top of the thigh. Was that where his injury was?

23 A. Yes. Yes. There was a wound there, a penetrating wound from a

24 shell or a piece of shell, a shrapnel it was festering and infected. But

25 none of this counted, so that no aid was given to him.

1 Q. And you described there was a dentist called Davidovic. Was he

2 a Serb?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And he was -- he was the person who was treating people,

5 so-called?

6 A. He was the head of the medical platoon or team or people who were

7 supposed to treat and extend first aid when someone asked for aid, if he

8 dared ask for it.

9 Q. Now, first of all, what about food? Was food brought? I think

10 you said it was.

11 A. Yes. They did bring food to that sports hall; very little of it.

12 Sometimes they would -- some Serbs would come and bring food from family

13 members. This was rare, but there was an organised system too. In the

14 morning, they would bring these large containers with cups. But how can

15 you when people had to relieve themselves in there? It was dreadful. The

16 sunlight would come in through the big windows, and you were living inside

17 in a stench that one can't stand. People were urinating and so on.

18 Q. Were you given any facilities to wash or to clean up in any way?

19 A. Let me tell you. Nobody even asked for that, because there was no

20 time for any washing. I must tell you that I spent more than two and a

21 half months without a bath, and I still am not suffering from any skin

22 disease or anything. Nobody asked for it because nobody dared to. You --

23 all you care about is how to survive, not to get anything. So people were

24 too afraid to ask for something, even if they wanted to.

25 Q. I want to come to the last night that you were kept at the sports

1 hall. What happened to you that night?

2 A. That night -- that evening, sometime between 7.00 and 8.00, a

3 man -- a short man with a long stick wearing clothes like the pilots wore

4 before the war or some policemen came with this long wooden stick and

5 asked me to come out to the place to where in the kitchen the food was

6 prepared. He told me to come out with him and told me that that night he

7 was the boss, that he was the commander, and that commander, whose name

8 was Martic from the village near my village -- I don't know whom he --

9 what he did to others, but he treated me decently. His village is some 15

10 kilometres from mine; that is, from Sanski Most. And of course I examined

11 his mother and of course I examined her before the others so that she

12 could catch the bus to another village -- so that he treated me decently.

13 Otherwise whenever he entered this sports hall, everybody had to stand up,

14 put one's heads down and stand. And then further according to the orders.

15 But however, he left me alone. He never laid a finger on me. But that

16 night he did not come and he is the boss -- or rather, he is the head of

17 this sports hall. Instead this short man. And I heard that his name was

18 Rajlic and took me out, and three more young men came with rifles and they

19 kept cocking and uncocking their rifles, and they made me go down

20 on my knees and to mop the floor with a rag. And I did that for more than

21 two hours. And I still can't stand -- I cannot stand up because my spine

22 hurts. I simply cannot understand certain things in medicine, diseases,

23 the mistreating -- I mean, all sorts of mistreatment that one survives.

24 And yet a minor thing and you can never recover. So there was this

25 beating and then they said that I'd be going either to Manjaca or

1 something called Srbrenestijele [phoen], near Knin, that never -- that I'd

2 never treat anyone, that they'd pull my nails. And that night I wanted to

3 hang myself. I wanted to hang myself. And there was this large window in

4 the sports hall with metal locks or handles, and I got two shirts which I

5 was about to tear to hang myself with. But nevertheless my conscience all

6 of a sudden started waking up and I -- I thought what my -- Enis would

7 say, you didn't -- Serbs killed you. You didn't kill yourself. And I

8 thought about that, that I shouldn't kill myself. And I gave it up. But

9 it was a very bad night. The next day when we left off to Manjaca -- and

10 there was then -- there were then those questions of where's Sabanovic and

11 there was again beating in front of the trucks and so on.

12 Q. I'm just going to ask you one more question. You told us that you

13 were forced to mop the floor. And then you told us about your spine. As

14 well as mopping the floor, were they doing anything else to you?

15 A. Well, rifle butts here in the neck area and spine, and

16 mistreatment and beating, beating, kicking and fists. And that was the

17 worst night for me, and that is why I wanted to hang myself. But thinking

18 about the future, the history, and I thought well, my children will say it

19 wasn't the Serbs who killed my -- our father but he killed himself. And

20 then I decided not to kill myself, to let them do it. And somehow I felt

21 better after that.

22 Q. Forgive me, doctor, this seems a silly question. But had

23 anything -- had you ever received treatment like you received in those

24 days in the sports hall and Betonirka -- had anything like that ever

25 happened to you before?

1 A. Before? Well, it couldn't -- nothing like that could happen like

2 that, because I never had any trouble with him. I was never ill, but --

3 and whilst I was in the WC -- no, nobody ever -- nobody ever came to see

4 me let alone offer some help. No, out of the question.

5 Q. Sorry, it's my fault. Had you ever been subjected to this sort of

6 humiliation and attack by anyone before?

7 A. No. No. I was held in high regard. Dignity. I lived with

8 dignity.

9 Q. Now, you told us it was the next day that you were taken to

10 Manjaca.

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Were you the first lot of prisoners to go to Manjaca?

13 A. [No audible response]

14 Q. You have to say yes or no?

15 A. Yes. The first lot, the first group of 147 [Realtime transcript

16 read in error "villages"] individuals in three trucks. From another hall

17 and from this one. But some were allowed to leave. Not all of them went

18 to Manjaca.

19 Q. I just want to for a moment to look, please, at one document.

20 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Fauveau.

22 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] I believe there is a mis --

23 an error. I believe that there is an error in the transcript. 147

24 villages. I do not think that was what he said. I believe he said 147

25 prisoners.

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, you are right. In the transcript it says 147

2 villages in three trucks. Just for the record --

3 THE INTERPRETER: Individuals, people.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Madam Fauveau. Thank you.

5 MS. KORNER: I hadn't looked at the ...

6 Q. Could you just look --

7 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

8 MS. KORNER:

9 Q. Could you look, please, at document P666.

10 MS. KORNER: And we'll just put the English up on the ELMO.

11 Your Honour, it's not on the list. It's just to confirm the date.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: We have 667 but not 666.

13 MS. KORNER: Not 666. That's the one before.

14 If you'll just put the English on the ELMO, you'll see ...

15 Q. This is an order to the public security station to evacuate 150

16 prisoners to Manjaca, dated the 6th of June.

17 MS. KORNER: Has the witness got it? Oh, it's on the back, I

18 see -- the B/C/S. All right.

19 Q. If you can just confirm it.

20 A. Yes, I see that.

21 Q. And you're telling us that you -- there were 147 people -- it may

22 not. The difference of three, don't worry about -- who went with you that

23 day to Manjaca. Is that right?

24 A. That's right. This is the truth, 147.

25 MS. KORNER: Yes, thank you. We don't need the document any

1 longer.

2 Q. And would you accept that it was on or about the 6th of June of

3 1992 that you went to Manjaca?

4 A. Why, yes. Of course I didn't know the date when I left. There

5 was no way I could note the dates. So as of the WC onward, I simply don't

6 know anything about that. I didn't have anything, nor -- nobody explained

7 it. Nobody mentioned it. Nobody cared what date it was. But yes, it

8 must have been there give or take.

9 Q. Now, you say there were 147 people. How do you know the number

10 that was taken with you to Manjaca?

11 A. Well, let me tell you one thing. When we from the sports hall

12 left in a truck to SUP, from another hall from the town two more trucks

13 arrived, and we went to Manjaca. We didn't know. We thought they were

14 taking us for an exchange. But then we reached a village, and then when

15 they took us over a very high mountain then we reached Manjaca. Perhaps

16 we'll have to go back again. But when we fetched up in Manjaca -- when we

17 got to the hall, in the cow shed, the pavilion, whatever they called it --

18 that evening -- that is how I know it -- a policeman and I went and

19 somehow in Manjaca my impression was that I was somehow in a more

20 favourable position. And that policeman and I went and counted those men.

21 And they were lying down with their head like this and legs like this.

22 And this was a long cow shed, 60 to 70 metres. And we counted 140. And

23 he told me that 147 had been brought to Manjaca -- had arrived in Manjaca,

24 which means that seven men, seven individuals, had disappeared. And that

25 is the truth.

1 Q. You mentioned something that happened the next morning. Before

2 you got on the trucks that took you to Manjaca, was anything else done to

3 you or any of the other men?

4 A. Well, let me tell you. It was horrible, because there was

5 particularly bad beating as one entered those trucks. So I somehow tried

6 to jump up like a dog. I leapt into that truck. Then it was very hot.

7 And in front of the SUP they were putting -- they were throwing -- they

8 were making more people get into these trucks. They were tied with

9 something. Their hands were tied two by two, so that it was -- the whole

10 thing was horrible. But nevertheless they all reached Manjaca safe and

11 sound.

12 Q. Did any of -- did all the men come from the sports hall, or did

13 some of the men come from another place in Sanski Most?

14 A. Well, from other places too, I think, but I can't really know

15 that. I know from the sports hall in the town, some of them, and we

16 from this Hasan Kikic sports hall. But yes, there were people from

17 villages around and so on.

18 Q. When you arrived at Manjaca, who met you?

19 A. The police met us. The police which was to run Manjaca, which was

20 the run the camp the few -- the administration of the future camp.

21 Q. Okay. By "police" do you mean military police or ordinary

22 policemen like those who worked in the SUP?

23 A. That was the military place. And I was told when we got off the

24 trucks, we again had to stand by those trucks with our arms up. And they

25 beat us again. But somehow he skipped me during that beating. That

1 policeman who beat everybody, he somehow did not beat me. And I just

2 looked a little bit -- because you were not supposed to turn around. But

3 I saw a dark shortish man in a uniform, and he had the rank of lieutenant

4 in the Yugoslav People's Army, and he told the policeman, "This is a

5 doctor for you," and pointed his finger at me. I could see him. But

6 those policemen -- that is, one just said, "Well, not even the

7 international Geneva Convention will help him here." And that's how it

8 started.

9 Q. All right. Could we take this a little more slowly, please. You

10 say there was a JNA lieutenant there.

11 A. That's right.

12 Q. And he told the other policemen that you're a doctor. Do you know

13 how he knew you were a doctor?

14 A. I'm afraid it will take too long.

15 Q. Did --

16 A. I learnt that he was the -- that he was a son of a teacher in the

17 teacher's academy in Banja Luka. And for a while I worked in Banja Luka

18 at a clinic there. And I had a patient who was a teacher, a tall man. He

19 had a heart complaint. And when I turned, I saw that he was that

20 teacher's son who used to visit his father, and he was in the ward where I

21 used to work. And that is how I knew that I was a doctor.

22 Q. That's how he knew that you were a doctor. The translation came

23 across --

24 A. That is how he knew, yes. He recognised me.

25 Q. And did this JNA lieutenant seem to be in charge?

1 A. We were told that he would be the head, that he would be the

2 warden of the camp. That is what we were told as we were standing by

3 those trucks.

4 Q. And just to jump ahead a moment, we know that somebody called

5 Lieutenant Colonel Popovic took over the camp. How long after this did he

6 take over?

7 A. A few days later -- Popovic did not take over from him, because

8 there is a camp warden and a camp commander. Popovic was the commander of

9 the camp, and he had his wardens. And this lieutenant left three or four

10 days later. He took up some other duty, and he never again showed his

11 face in Manjaca.

12 Q. All right. Now, this lieutenant who was the warden of the camp,

13 did he explain to you how you should behave in the camp? For example, how

14 you should talk to guards.

15 A. Well, let me tell you. We were explained that the next morning

16 by a sergeant of the Yugoslav army in -- or a corporal. And he was

17 wearing an SMB uniform. It was rainy so the grass was wet as we were

18 taken to the cow shed. And we were taken to this first cow shed. And he

19 told us to keep quiet, not to move about, because there is no court

20 here. This is a camp. If you -- so you either -- you have to stand, to

21 stand like this, and you behave as if you were to -- hands at your back,

22 head down, regardless of conversation, regardless of where you are. You

23 have no right to move. If the worms are moving under your feet, then they

24 are there.

25 Q. I'm sorry. I would like a translation of that last -- well,

1 perhaps I better ask again. You said something about worms under your

2 feet. Who said what, using that expression?

3 A. Are you asking me?

4 Q. I'm sorry, yes. I think it's better if you just tell us again

5 what was said to you about -- and particularly how the expression --

6 A. What was said was -- well, that expression was or you trample a

7 worm or you kill a man. There is no court in the camp. And he told us

8 how to behave or how we were -- what posture we were to take when talking

9 to an official.

10 Q. Yes. I'm sorry to go back to this. Who was saying and how were

11 they saying it, you trample a worm or you kill a man. There is no court

12 in the camp. What exactly was being said? That's what I'm trying to get

13 at?

14 A. Exactly. That was the sergeant who was standing there. The door

15 is very large, is very wide, and he stood there and warned us to avoid any

16 trouble, to obey, to just heed to orders as they came from superiors. And

17 he was a sergeant in the uniform of the Yugoslav People's Army. There at

18 Manjaca was a training centre, that is, where people used to do their

19 military service before the war and so on and so forth, so that there was

20 a young man there whom I never saw again, after where I -- because seven

21 people were killed there. He was caught three days earlier before we left

22 to Manjaca. He was caught in Sanski Most. And he said, "I'll be fine

23 there, because that's where I did my military service. That is where they

24 have the training ground for the artillery, for the army, that is where

25 the army used to be. It is a very large ground and it is -- and the

1 troops used to come in --

2 Q. Don't worry --

3 A. -- to that camp.

4 Q. I just want to have one final attempt at trying to get this

5 clear. The sergeant was addressing you. He was telling you how you had

6 to stand when you spoke to the guards. He told you there was no court

7 here -- in the camp, rather, and that --

8 A. That's right.

9 Q. -- Killing -- that there was -- killing a man and worms under

10 your shoes or feet. Were what?

11 A. It was for comparison. Because there was some rain, and there

12 were all those worms in the grass. And as he stood by this door, he said,

13 "Well, you either squash a worm or kill a man, all the same. No

14 difference. No court, no accountability."

15 JUDGE AGIUS: I think it's clear enough, Ms. Korner.

16 And if it is convenient for you, we could stop here.

17 MS. KORNER: Certainly.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: For 20 minutes. We'll have a break at 20 minutes,

19 resuming at quarter to 5.00. Quarter to 5.00. Thank you.

20 --- Recess taken at 4.25 p.m.

21 --- On resuming at 4.49 p.m.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Korner.

23 MS. KORNER:

24 Q. Now, doctor, you told us that when you'd been pointed out as a

25 doctor, somebody had said that the international Geneva Conventions didn't

1 apply to Manjaca. Do you remember that?

2 A. [No interpretation]

3 Q. I want you to have a look at a document, please, that comes from

4 the first --

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Ms. Korner, I don't recall him saying exactly --

6 saying it exactly the way that you put it.

7 MS. KORNER: Well, I was summarising, Your Honour. But I'm

8 perfectly happy if anybody can actually find the actual quote.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. What he said, I recall is that he said more or

10 less that a remark was passed when it was pointed out that he was a

11 doctor-- a remark was passed that the Geneva Conventions won't be of any

12 help to him. But it's --

13 MS. KORNER: All right. Your Honour, I'm sure Your Honour has got

14 a much better memory than I have for it.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: No. I think we better --

16 MS. KORNER: Yes. "Would help him here."

17 A. Yes. Because they -- they would not be applied. And that is --

18 that the International Geneva Convention won't be of any help to me.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: This is what he -- this is what he said,

20 Ms. Korner.

21 MS. KORNER: Yeah. I've found it.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. "Well, not even the International Geneva

23 Convention will help him here."

24 MS. KORNER: Yes.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: And that's how it started.

1 MS. KORNER: Yes.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Go ahead with your question.

3 MS. KORNER: Thank you.

4 Q. I'd like you to look, please, at a document. It's the document

5 they I handed in together with the proofing document.

6 MS. KORNER: So perhaps that could be handed to the witness.

7 And Your Honours, I'd ask that it be made Prosecutor's Exhibit

8 806.

9 And I just want the witness to have the B/C/S version, please,

10 which should be separate from the English version. All right.

11 Q. Now, I appreciate, doctor, that you hadn't seen this until you

12 looked at it on Saturday. But if we can just go through it, because I

13 want to ask you about a couple of things in it. It's from the assistant

14 commander for moral guidance, it looks like. But anyhow, it's to deliver

15 to the warden of the Manjaca camp, personally inspect how prisoners of war

16 are being treated. And it was -- originally it appears as an order sent

17 to the command of the 1st Krajina Corps from the Main Staff, and talks

18 about setting up proper accommodation for prisoners of war, setting up of

19 prisoner of war camps.

20 And then it says: "Respect the provisions of international laws

21 of war in all treatment of prisoners of war. Put prisoners of war in

22 prisoner of war camps as quickly as possible." And then so on and so

23 forth.

24 Now, what I want to look at is the next document which sent --

25 which comes from the command of the 1st Krajina Corps on the 13th of June.

1 THE INTERPRETER: Could we have it on the ELMO, please.

2 MS. KORNER: The interpreters should have this document. They do

3 have this -- I just heard the interpreter saying could we put it on the

4 ELMO. It is actually attached to the document they were given earlier

5 this afternoon. But however, if it's required to be put on the ELMO, we

6 can.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Ms. Korner, you're now referring, I assume, to the

8 second of these documents. That is, the one which in the English version

9 ends with the three numbers 892; correct?

10 MS. KORNER: Yes, exactly.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

12 MS. KORNER: But I can hear somebody saying through my headphones

13 put it on the ELMO, so we will. Could that be put on the ELMO, please.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: And this will be 807, P807.

15 MS. KORNER: No. It's all part of the same document, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Oh, I see.

17 MS. KORNER: It's all part of the same document, Your Honour.

18 Yes. And I think can I perhaps take the B/C/S away from the

19 witness. It's easier if I find it. Yes.

20 Q. Now, what I think we're looking at here is a document 13th of

21 June, 1992. It's all handwritten -- from the command of the 1st Krajina

22 Corps. And it states that "The commanders of the prisoner of war camps in

23 Stara Gradiska and Manjaca shall send daily reports on the arrival of

24 prisoners of war to the assistant camps commander for moral guidance and

25 legal affairs." And then it goes on about lists of prisoners who shall be

1 exchanged.

2 And then: "Enclosed, application of the provisions of

3 international laws of war in the treatment of prisoners of war and

4 civilians." And as it's all we can see that it was delivered to the

5 chief -- the order was to be delivered to the chief of security of the 1st

6 Krajina Corps, the commander of Stara Gradiska prisoner of war camp, and

7 Manjaca and other various people.

8 And now can we look at the enclosure, which is headed

9 "Application of the provisions of international laws of war in the

10 treatment of prisoners of war and civilians."

11 I think you'll find, sir that, that's the next document you have

12 underneath, if you turn to the next -- if you take that one away and I

13 think you'll find that it's there.

14 Now, I just want to look at some of the conventions that the

15 commander of Manjaca was being reminded of. "Prisoners of war must be

16 humanely treated at all times. Any unlawful act or omission by the

17 detaining power causing death or seriously endangering the health of a

18 prisoner of war in its custody is prohibited. No prisoner of war may be

19 subjected to physical mutilation or experiments. Prisoners of war must be

20 protected against all acts of violence or intimidation, insults, and

21 public curiosity. Measures of reprisal against prisoners of war are

22 prohibited and their persons and their honour must be respected in all

23 circumstances."

24 Doctor, in a moment I'm going to ask you about what happened in

25 Manjaca. But from what you saw, were -- was any adherence to those

1 conventions given -- was any adherence made to those provisions in Manjaca

2 while you were there?

3 A. None whatsoever. Not a single one of those provisions, and I've

4 known -- I knew them before. None of them were respected, were complied

5 with, and they were very far from reality.

6 Q. All right. I'm just going to look at a couple more.

7 "All prisoners of war shall be treated alike, without any

8 discrimination on grounds of race, nationality, religious belief,

9 political opinions, or any other similar criteria." Then it talks about

10 particulars.

11 "All forms of coercion or torture are prohibited," and so on and

12 so forth.

13 As far as you were concerned, doctor, were the majority of

14 prisoners at Manjaca actually prisoners of war, in the sense that is meant

15 by these conventions?

16 A. I can tell you quite sincerely and truthfully all those who came

17 from Sanski Most, who came from Kljuc -- I don't know about others,

18 because I wasn't in touch with them -- but the people from Sanski Most,

19 there was no resistance in our town. There was no war. There wasn't a

20 shot fired when we were captured in our homes or at our working places.

21 So there was no war there at all. There was no resistance. I loved when

22 the CNN would come and other international broadcasters and they would

23 say, "This one was captured on the front." I can't understand this, and I

24 deny it. I cannot talk about it at all, not a single one. I am very

25 familiar with the municipality of Sanski Most. Not a single person, not a

1 single detainee from Sanski Most at Manjaca was a prisoner of war. There

2 was no war. There was no resistance. A couple of policemen would simply

3 bring 50 people from a particular village. What kind -- what resistance,

4 what front line, what war are we talking about?

5 Q. All right. Can we just look at a couple of other things that are

6 talked about here.

7 "Moneys and articles of value may be temporarily taken away from

8 prisoner of war, only by order of the commander of the unit or camp and

9 with an appropriate receipt."

10 Now, when you and the other men arrived at the camp, did anybody

11 have any valuables on them?

12 A. I didn't, but some people did. I told you that I counted the men

13 with a policeman one by one, and then I saw another colleague of mine, a

14 physician from Sanski Most. I didn't know that he had arrived at

15 Manjaca. He came from a different sports hall. And as he was lying on

16 his stomach with his head in the straw and his hands on his back, I didn't

17 recognise him. But the police took his watch off. He had a nice watch

18 on. And he turned around, and then I saw that it was my colleague, a

19 specialist of occupational medicine, and that he had worked in Sanski

20 Most. And I saw his watch being taken off myself. I don't know about

21 anything else.

22 Q. So you don't know what happened to other prisoners who had any

23 valuables left.

24 A. I don't know. I know that they were taken away, but I didn't see

25 it I don't I can't tell you about things I didn't see.

1 Q. And finally this, because everybody can read the whole document

2 themselves. It says that "In camps, prisoners of war have the right to

3 elect representatives every 6 months by secret ballot. A representative

4 must be a prisoner of war who has same nationality, et cetera. The

5 representative represents the prisoner of war before the military

6 authorities protecting power, international committee of the Red

7 Cross, any other organisation that assists them. And prisoners,

8 representatives are exempt from all other work."

9 Was there any such election of a representative that took place

10 whilst you were in Manjaca?

11 A. Never any attempt of that kind had been made. If it had been

12 done, there would have been trouble. There was no election, no

13 representatives, no opinions, nothing. You just had to do what you were

14 ordered to do. If you didn't, you knew what lay ahead for you.

15 Q. And then we come to this: "Civilians who have fallen into the

16 power of a warring side are entitled to respect for their persons, honour,

17 family rights, beliefs, and customs. These individuals must be treated

18 humanely at all times and all forms of violence and intimidation are

19 prohibited."

20 You told us that most of the people that -- who were from Sanski

21 Most and Kljuc were not prisoners of war. They were people who had been

22 rounded up. Were you treated humanely, as the International Geneva

23 Conventions say?

24 A. There was no humaneness or the slightest iota of the Geneva

25 Conventions. There was violence, such as even Hitler never resorted to.

1 I have read a lot about it and seen a lot, but what happened there only a

2 well organised well-exercised campaign to destroy a people can achieve it.

3 Nothing civilised happened there.

4 Q. Yes. Thank you?

5 MS. KORNER: You can put the document away now. Thank you very

6 much.

7 Q. Now, I want to go back to that first day when you arrived. You've

8 told us that you were seen there by a JNA lieutenant. And you've told us

9 how you got out of the trucks. Was anybody injured or killed upon your

10 arrival there?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. How did that come about?

13 A. It came about as we were coming out of the truck -- trucks,

14 jumping off, we were ordered to lean against the trucks with our hands up

15 and our heads down. However, right next to me there was a grassy area.

16 We were the first group to arrive. Right next to me there was a man, a

17 young man, from Sanski Most, Merhardzic Neron, or something like that. He

18 was killed right next to me straight away. He was killed. Also Biscevic,

19 a dentist. I can't remember the name now. So as I was saying, 147 of us

20 arrived there, but that evening around 7.00, 140 were counted in the

21 stable. This was right in front of me. I watched with a rifle butt on

22 the head, on the asphalt. People were killed by policemen from Sanski

23 Most, not the police that was there when we arrived and that were in

24 charge of the camp but policemen from Sanski Most. Out of those seven

25 people that disappeared by the time we entered the stable, I told you that

1 with the policemen we counted 140 -- but there was never any trace found

2 of those seven missing people, nor their bodies, nor will they ever be

3 found.

4 Q. Now, you told us that you saw this man standing next to you being

5 attacked with rifle butts. Did you see how the other people --

6 A. He was thrown on the ground.

7 Q. Yes. Sorry. The person next to you was thrown on the ground and

8 then attacked with rifle butts; is that what you're saying?

9 A. Killed. Beaten and killed on the spot. We were standing there

10 for half an hour, up to one hour.

11 Q. Did you see the deaths of the other six men or their bodies

12 afterward?

13 A. I did not see all of them. But the same that happened, it was

14 said that those people had been killed. No one ever saw them again. But

15 just as these two men right next to me were killed, I wasn't able to walk

16 around. I wasn't a guard or a warden. I came here -- came there to be

17 killed. And it was just by chance that I wasn't killed. That is the

18 truth. Otherwise, the same would have happened as happened to this

19 dentist and this young man who worked as a conductor. I saw these two

20 being killed 100 per cent.

21 Q. You say you were told about the others being killed. Who told you

22 about them?

23 A. It was said by the police. All kinds of rumours reached me. I

24 had a little more freedom, especially that night. The bad reports about

25 me hadn't yet reached them, so I expected it would be a kind of camp as

1 envisaged by the Geneva Conventions. Unfortunately it was quite the

2 opposite.

3 Q. Okay. So you've already told us that you were then taken to the

4 stables and you were made to lie down and then a count took place.

5 A. When we entered the stable, we lay down and I was called out. The

6 others remained lying down.

7 Q. Yes. Don't worry. You've told us about that.

8 When you arrived at Manjaca, was there a fence around the camp

9 itself, or had that yet not been put up? A wire fence.

10 A. Yes, there was a fence. There were several men who came from the

11 area of Doboj, four or five men, who were brought there from Stara

12 Gradiska, and they were working on the fence. At first a mine had not

13 been planted round the camp. Two or three days later, the camp was mined.

14 I watched the mines being laid. Engineers of the army, of the Yugoslav

15 army, the engineers laying mines. I watched them do it.

16 Q. Now, once the count had taken place in the stable, where did you

17 go?

18 A. We had nowhere to go. They were in the middle of the stable. If

19 you have the pictures, I'd show you. They stood there, five or six

20 officers, then the policemen, a nurse wearing a uniform, and I was called

21 to stand up, and they asked me questions: Would I like to go to Sanski

22 Most to fight with them? I said I wouldn't go to fight against the

23 people, only if I were a soldier with you and if somebody were to attack

24 you I would defend you. And then they sort of baptised me, a policemen.

25 I was standing up. I was the only one of all the detainees - and there

1 were about 8.000 of them, though the number varied, but the maximum was

2 8.000 - so I was baptised then. A policeman came and told me that I had

3 to learn by the next day how to cross myself. And I said I wouldn't do it

4 and that was not possible. And then after that they called me -- I'm

5 sorry. They asked me to join them, and we left the stable. We went

6 outside.

7 On both sides of me were two lieutenants wearing SMB uniforms.

8 Q. Sorry. You're going a bit fast. The interpretation is lagging

9 behind.

10 Okay. You left -- there were two men in SMB uniform. And where

11 did you go then?

12 A. I was between them. They were on either side of me. And I was

13 moving and talking to them. They said, "We don't like this either, but we

14 have to do it." Literally these were regular men military of the Yugoslav

15 army. They said, "We'd like to go home too as soon as possible. We don't

16 like this." And then we left the stable.

17 Q. Okay. Before we move on to what you did then, two matters.

18 First, when you said that you weren't prepared to be, as you put it,

19 baptised, did anything happen to you?

20 A. You're wrong. Not -- I didn't say I wasn't ready. I was baptised

21 on the spot, but I couldn't learn the 50 or 100 words that this man told

22 me I had to learn. And I said that I wouldn't learn it.

23 Q. And when you say you wouldn't learn it, did anything happen to

24 you?

25 A. The policeman hit me then in the stomach. I was skinny then, much

1 thinner than I am now, and I dealt with it. He hit me with his leg. He

2 kicked me.

3 Q. Now, I want to show you, please, a map with some photographs on

4 it.

5 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I don't think it's one we've produced

6 yet. I don't think Your Honours have got it. The Defence have got it.

7 So could that be handed to the witness and to Your Honours. And the

8 exhibit number is 807, Exhibit 807.

9 Q. You were explaining about the stables. If you look at the

10 photograph number 10, which says "Stable 1, inside view." Where were the

11 people lying down? In front of the stalls?

12 A. As far as I can see, the inside can be seen only on one

13 photograph, the inside of the stable.

14 Q. That's right.

15 A. They were lying with their head over there, like this, and their

16 legs here. Then the next group.

17 Q. All right.

18 A. They were in rows on the concrete. And this is where the

19 livestock used to be tied. Everything is clear.

20 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, we'll move on. We've got a bigger

21 photograph somewhere.

22 Q. Okay. Can you just -- I'll tell you what, doctor. If you just

23 put the map on the ELMO. Somebody will come and do that for you. Oh,

24 here we are. We've got a bigger one here. We've got the same one but

25 bigger. If we can put that on the ELMO.

1 And if you could just indicate, doctor, how people were lying.

2 A. People were here on both sides. And two other rows in between,

3 the length of this middle part, on the concrete. This is where the

4 livestock used to be tied.

5 Q. Yes. Okay.

6 A. And a place where the livestock drank.

7 Q. Thank you. Now, you were telling us that you were taken out of

8 the stable with these two men who were telling you that they didn't want

9 to be there. And were you then asked to examine some of the -- some

10 people, some prisoners?

11 A. Not just the two of them but all of these who were in front.

12 There were another four or five policemen in front and a nurse in

13 uniform. Then they told me to examine four young men. I examined them.

14 And the diagnosis was scabies, a skin disease that causes itching and

15 provoked by dirt. It's called scabitox in Latin. And there were three or

16 four young men. And a few days later, the police brought me -- I wrote

17 down what was necessary. And the policeman brought four boxes of these

18 kabatos [phoen], or rather, bottles of a medicine that you administered.

19 And one young man had plaster on his arm up to his elbow, a cast. I was

20 told to examine him. That was my assignment. And I found that that young

21 man had a broken left shoulder and the cast went up to his elbow. You

22 see, the cast is heavy. It's a load on the lower arm. And I have to be

23 quite sincere. These officers and the management or the command of the

24 camp gave me a referral note. I wrote it out. I filled it in. I don't

25 have the tell you in Latin that he had a broken shoulder. A car came from

1 Banja Luka and took him off to the surgical ward of the clinical centre in

2 Banja Luka, and I don't know what happened to him after that. But I

3 also --

4 Q. Just pause.

5 A. -- To tell you --

6 Q. Sorry. It -- Doctor, it's just -- it's my fault, but it's a bit

7 confused. You're saying, first of all, that you were asked to examine

8 four people who had scabies.

9 A. Yes. Yes.

10 Q. And shall we get that out of the way. Later did they provide

11 something -- did the military provide some medicine for that? Is that

12 what you're saying?

13 A. Yes, yes.

14 Q. All right. And were those the -- were those men that you examined

15 the people who had come from Doboj and were building the fence?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Now, this man that you're now talking about, the man who went to

18 Banja Luka hospital, you say that he had -- you examined him and he had a

19 cast -- do you mean from his wrist to his elbow?

20 A. From his elbow to the end of his hand. And I found a fracture in

21 his left shoulder, which means that the cast made it worse. And he told

22 me that he had been in Prijedor in the hospital there, that that is where

23 they put on the cast, and then they sent him back to Sanski Most. He came

24 there with us. He was the next one after the patients with scabies. And

25 after I examined him, he was sent to Banja Luka. And I must add, I left

1 immediately. In December I went to Switzerland. And afterwards this

2 young man called me in Switzerland that he was alive and well and he

3 thanked me very much.

4 Q. Okay. Thank you. So what you're saying is although he had a

5 broken shoulder, the cast had been put onto his arm and that made his

6 shoulder worse.

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Now, I can deal, please, with -- next with the food and water that

9 first day. Were you given anything to eat or drink that first day of your

10 arrival or that first night?

11 A. Yes. I was thirsty and I was the first to get water to quench my

12 thirst. And afterwards, together with the policemen, I went and

13 distributed water to the people lying down. They were lying on their left

14 elbow, and I gave them water to drink, to each and every one from the

15 beginning to the end, and I was escorted by this policeman. There was no

16 food on that occasion.

17 Q. Okay. Now, did other prisoners arrive from other areas that same

18 night -- or day?

19 A. No, not that night. I was something like the man on duty in the

20 stable that night.

21 Q. What about the following day? Did other people arrive?

22 A. And then -- well, we'd have to spend two months here if I were to

23 tell you everything. The number changed every day, and it went up. So

24 the largest number was about 8.000-something. Otherwise, the numbers

25 changed. New people came in and so on.

1 Q. I'm sorry; did you say 8.000?

2 A. I did.

3 Q. Do you mean in the whole camp?

4 A. I did. In the whole camp. More than 8.000. 8.000-something was

5 the maximum number. 8.600 / 700. This was on one particular day. But

6 the number kept changing every day.

7 Q. And where did you get these figures from?

8 A. Well, I was in the clinic, and I had contact with the police and

9 with the commander, and I knew of this. I was told. And anyway, you

10 could see it. You've seen yourself a large settlement. And after July,

11 in August and September there were people walking around between the

12 stables, so things had settled down. And there were crowds of people

13 walking around.

14 Q. You've told us that on that first night there were 140 of you in

15 that stable. What was the maximum number of people that were kept in your

16 one stable at any one time?

17 A. I'd say the stable that I was in, and the same would hold true of

18 those others. In my stable, the largest number was 890 -- 890-something.

19 And it was really very crowded and people moved out and so on and so

20 forth.

21 Q. I want to deal now with Manjaca by way of topics. In other words,

22 food, water, beatings, and killings, as I say, in topics. But first of

23 all, can I ask you about this: You were a doctor, and you've told us that

24 you saw another doctor that night in your stable. Who was that?

25 A. Yes. His name is Meho Derviskadic, who now lives in Switzerland.

1 He did not want to testify because -- well, I don't know. He was admitted

2 into Swiss nationality and so on and so forth. That is what he told me.

3 Q. Don't worry about whether he's going to testify or not. I just

4 want to find out about the doctor-- the medical staff in the camp. There

5 was you and Dr. Derviskadic. Was there also a male nurse named

6 Asim Bajric?

7 A. Yes, that's right.

8 Q. Were there any other doctors in the camp?

9 A. Later on. But they didn't do the things that we did.

10 Q. So did you and Dr. Derviskadic and the nurse Bajric, were you the

11 only three who provided medical attention?

12 A. Right up until the arrival of inmates from Omarska, Keraterm and

13 others from Prijedor. We were the only ones. And for the duration of my

14 stay in Manjaca, we were the ones who took care of the inmates' health.

15 Other doctors who arrived later on, they did take some part in

16 distributing medicines around the stables locally and brought to the

17 surgery to us -- they'd establish who were sick, and they would then bring

18 them to our surgery. So they did not examine them. It was only the two

19 of us -- the two of us doctors and that nurse. We were the only one who

20 is did that, who treated them.

21 Q. And can you tell us where was your infirmary -- or clinic, first

22 of all?

23 A. In June -- so the first one was in the police building, in the

24 building that the police was in. And later on about in the middle, nearer

25 to these stables or pavilions as they called them. And then also in the

1 camp command. Once upon a time it was the slaughterhouse, but that was

2 refurbished and we had there a separate infirmary where we worked.

3 Q. Okay. Could you take the map and the photographs again. Have you

4 still -- you've still got that. Yes. If we look at the photograph

5 numbered "6" on that map.

6 A. Here. Mm-hm. I see.

7 Q. Yes.

8 A. Number 6.

9 Q. We can see something called the admin building, administration

10 building. Was that where your first clinic was?

11 A. Yes. That's right. Yes. It was right here, on this corner here,

12 this longer side facing us and here in this part. And this here is where

13 the police slept. But that is the administration building -- or the

14 command. The administration building is when you run a company or

15 something. But it's the command when it comes to the troops.

16 Q. Okay. And then we can see -- and I just want you to confirm --

17 paragraph number 8, which is to the right-hand side as we look at it, is

18 headed -- subtitled "Infirmary." Was that the building you used after

19 that?

20 A. It says "Infirmary." Is that it? The last one? You mean the

21 last photograph?

22 Q. Yes, photograph number 8.

23 A. This here is not the infirmary. It is at the entrance in a small

24 part in the front part. This is the entrance into stables where horses

25 were kept. And we turned there into a hospital where we admitted severe

1 cases and people who were bedridden and then we started sleeping also in

2 that building. Before that, we slept in the stables with all the other

3 inmates. But here we had -- well, at least 30 people severely afflicted

4 who came to us frequently. And this here, behind this part, in the same

5 building to the left you can see the door here. Facing us. That was the

6 solitary confinement cell.

7 Q. I'm sorry. Could you -- you've lost me there slightly, doctor.

8 MS. KORNER: Could we put the thing on the ELMO.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: [Microphone not activated] I think that's the way to

10 go, because I'm getting confused --

11 MS. KORNER: Yes. Descriptions of doors and whatever don't help.

12 If we could put the map on the ELMO, please.

13 Q. And you say you were indicating a door that you said was where the

14 isolation cell was. Can you just point to that with the pointer.

15 A. Here. This one here. And we entered through this other side.

16 That is where we entered our hospital.

17 Q. All right.

18 A. And this here on this side, it was the isolation cell.

19 Q. Okay. So -- but the door -- can you have the pointer again,

20 please. The door that we can see with the little sort of roof over it, is

21 that the entrance to the infirmary or hospital?

22 A. No. No. No, it is not -- yes. On the front side.

23 Q. I'm sorry. Somebody has moved the photograph out of the frame.

24 All right. Point to where the entrance to the hospital was.

25 A. [Indicates]

1 Q. Just there.

2 A. Here.

3 Q. And the isolation cell.

4 A. [Indicates]

5 Q. Was that door there. I see.

6 A. This here. This small area here. This narrow door here.

7 Q. Yes. And when you say "isolation cell," was that an isolation

8 cell for patients or for other prisoners?

9 A. Isolation cells exist in armies. I did my service in Bjelovar

10 before the war, 11 months something. But I was a doctor and I was in the

11 infirmary. But an isolation cell is the area where you put unruly ones,

12 unruly men in regular troops. And here they would put there those whom

13 they saw as most dangerous and those who were beaten the worst, people who

14 were taken out, away, and then put into this isolation cell.

15 Q. All right. Thank you very much.

16 MS. KORNER: Yes. We don't need the map any more.

17 Q. Now, I want to split the period. I'm going to ask you about

18 medicines and the like. Before the arrival of the International Red Cross

19 in July of 1992, what medicines did you have for prisoners?

20 A. None. No medicines at all. If something gets there, if an

21 officer perhaps brings it along visiting, or if a visitor comes. We had

22 no medicines, except what I just said about those four men, that is, those

23 four inmates. We were given medicine for the scabies. Apart from that,

24 there were no medicines. And perhaps today I could develop a modern

25 thesis on health and human personality, what a man can go through

1 unscathed without spending any medicines. Gentlemen, you are here -- I

2 won't say they are much cleverer than I am. I know they are more

3 experienced. I don't know if they are cleverer. But you are all

4 intellectuals. A man who's on insulin, who suffers from diabetes, and he

5 cannot live without insulin, he needs substitution for his pancreas, he

6 needs something so as to live, so as to stop the sugar. We had such

7 people there who were administered insulin in Prijedor around, and they

8 were those saying they would not survive because there was no insulin and

9 there were no tablets even. There were also drug addicts from Sanski

10 Most, a young man who was on to drugs and he came with an eupyrene

11 [phoen], that is, with some sedatives. He gets a pill for three or four

12 days and he completely got rid of his addiction. And all those who were

13 on insulin before, they all survived. I'm sorry.

14 Q. That's quite all right.

15 What sort of treatment were you able to give then to people who

16 came to your clinic?

17 A. Examined them, gave them some massage, if they would have high

18 fevers we would massage them with alcohol. That is what they gave us,

19 alcohol and then we would massage them. And there were people who were

20 wounded. We also had some wounded. And there were also those who came

21 from the area of Posavina, or Herzegovinians and Dalmations and others who

22 came from other areas. And there were also wounded men, those who could

23 not move. And we looked after them and tended to them, tried to dress

24 their wounds with what we had. We tried to make do. And that is what I'm

25 saying. I cannot simply -- it is almost beyond me how one goes through

1 such conditions and yet survives. Later on when the Red Cross came, that

2 is when we started getting medicines and that was a completely different

3 situation then.

4 Q. Did you ever get any medical supplies through Merhamet?

5 A. I don't know. I heard that something did come. But I did not

6 talk with anyone in Merhamet. I do not know if they brought anything in

7 or distributed. I did not communicate with them. I must admit that I did

8 not have a personal contact with them. Perhaps somebody did. Perhaps

9 Merhamet did bring in some medicines. I do not know if they did. But I'm

10 not sure that I had all that many medicines to bring them. But I never

11 communicated with them.

12 Q. So they didn't -- they didn't communicate with you directly, as

13 the doctor.

14 A. No.

15 Q. Now, when you -- the first time that you operated the clinic and

16 people waited to see you, did anything happen to them?

17 A. In the early days, yes. In June. June was unbearable.

18 Q. What happened to people who were waiting to see you, the doctor?

19 A. We'd come in front of them together in that position, as I told

20 you, and we'd get into the infirmary. They'd tell us to go to the

21 infirmary. And we'd change. We had our white coats. And then they'd

22 call them out. And once they were outside, they would be beaten often.

23 For instance, they would reach the door all right on their own -- under

24 their own power, under their own steam. And when they come in, you can't

25 even recognise them. Right in front of the -- of the infirmary.

1 Q. Did you ever have to issue death certificates?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Can you remember who -- which -- I'm sorry, the person for whom

4 you first had to issue a death certificate?

5 A. Yes. It was a policeman before the war, and later on when he came

6 to Manjaca I examined him one day. And it was a nice sunny day, about

7 2.00 or 3.00 in the afternoon, because we, the doctors and nurses, were

8 always there at the reception when new men arrived. So we would examine

9 them in the infirmary and describe what they had -- what injuries they had

10 perhaps got elsewhere. And this man -- and his name was Emir Mulalic,

11 short. I know him because he was ill before the war and I sent him to the

12 military hospital in Zagreb. So I examined him, and he had absolutely no

13 injury, no visible injuries, nothing. So what we noted down was "no

14 bruises, no injuries, nothing." The next day, between 12.00 and 13.00,

15 there were very -- there was very loud shouts and they called to me

16 because I was in the stable. I was called out to go there straight away.

17 And I went there, and they told me that I had to go in and examine. And I

18 went in and I saw on the table, I saw a guy who was dead. And they told

19 me that he had fallen, that he was interrogated before that -- in the room

20 where the investigators were, and that he had fallen and that that was how

21 it happened. I examined him on the table. I took off his clothes. I

22 looked him over. And his whole -- his chest -- the sternum, this was

23 broken, and he was bleeding at the mouth and at the nose. But all this

24 here was broken. And I took a notebook and I saw that the day before, he

25 had been examined and that he had no injuries. But that is how this man

1 ended. We established that, that he was dead. And after that, Lieutenant

2 Colonel Popovic summoned me, Derviskadic, and we had to go to the

3 administrative building, or, that is, to the office. A typewriter, a

4 white table cloth, a table, and this is what he says to me.

5 "Doctor, you must write a record of death and cause of death."

6 And I had already done it before because I was the coroner for the Sanski

7 Most and Prijedor areas before the war. And he says, "Well, write if you

8 like that he died of pneumonia or a heart attack." And I said,

9 "Lieutenant colonel, sir, how can I do it?" And he said, "Just as you did

10 in school, when you had to describe how somebody had died of a heart

11 attack, of pneumonia, that is what you should write." Well -- and I was

12 thinking this was dead anyway, and I know what is in store for me if I

13 don't do it. So I take it type -- type there on the table. I do not say

14 what I saw. Really I said there was the discolourations on the body. I

15 said myocardial infarction. And that was it. I signed it first and then

16 the lieutenant colonel and after him Meho Derviskadic. The other one was

17 Omer Filipovic and there were others, but they do not always all stick in

18 my memory.

19 Q. I want to ask you about Omer Filipovic in a minute. But I just

20 want to ask you about this. You said you knew what would happen if you

21 hadn't signed a false certificate, in other words, saying the man

22 had died of pneumonia when he'd been -- his chest had been crushed or

23 whatever. What did you think would happen?

24 A. Not the lungs but the chest, the sternum. Sternum.

25 Well, I would have paid a very high price, perished. You can't

1 disobey. That was fascism, and there's no discussing -- I mean, I said it

2 before. I'm saying now before these gentlemen. This is a well oiled

3 fascism. That is the situation. When you try to annihilate the whole

4 people. And it was -- you really had to apply all your wits to survive

5 somehow, to make it through somehow.

6 Q. That was Mr. Mulalic. I'll deal with Mr. Filipovic in a moment.

7 But do you remember a man from Kljuc dying?

8 A. I say I do remember that man from Kljuc. There was first a young

9 man, a well-built, strong young man. But he was all covered in bruises

10 too. And he was taken away. A car came and took him to Banja Luka, I

11 believe.

12 Q. Did you --

13 A. That is where he was buried.

14 Q. Did you have to sign a death certificate for him as well?

15 A. No. They didn't ask me to do it for him.

16 Q. Now, Omer Filipovic, what did you know or what did you see of what

17 happened to him?

18 A. Let me tell you. I told you already. By then I already had to

19 also somehow manage the trauma that I had suffered. Now, nobody hit me,

20 nobody beat me, but I had suffered a mental trauma. Every time I went to

21 examine, they threatened me. So that I have to look after my mental

22 health. So on one occasion, I was standing next to a small group but

23 there were two policemen. And Omer Filipovic, who was at the headmaster

24 in a secondary school and taught philosophy -- and there was a

25 conversation. I was a few metres away, 5, 6 metres away. And I heard

1 this conversation, how hard it is on people, and Omer saying, and Omer was

2 saying how he would write down his memoirs and once he left the camp how

3 he would write his memoirs and say how he had fared in Manjaca. And at

4 that moment a policeman cursed -- use a dirty word and said, "Omer,

5 you'll never write that." And then the attitude towards Omer changed.

6 They started beating him, persecuting him, physically and psychologically,

7 and before he left he was taken to the solitary confinement several times

8 and was lying next to me in the stable, and nobody dared to go. He was

9 like at the end of this room here and I was like this. And nobody dared

10 approach him, go to him, give him water or anything. And when he was

11 taken away from there one night, the next day around 10.00 I was called

12 out and this other doctor and we went down. The door was open for us.

13 And in front of that was the hearse and a driver already arrived from

14 Banja Luka, and inside -- and it's a narrow room. A metre and a half or

15 something. Omer was lying on his back, dead, bloody. There was a fire

16 extinguisher next to him, you know, like this one, and its bottom was

17 bloody. Omer was -- had been killed. We wrapped him in a blanket, put

18 him in a coffin. And then the ambulance car arrived. And that is what I

19 know about Omer Filipovic. What he did before and how he behaved before,

20 I know nothing about that. But this is what I know about his death.

21 Q. All right. Two things. First of all, you've told us that one

22 night at 10.00 -- sorry, the next day -- no. I'll start this again. He

23 was taken away from the stable in which you were one night.

24 A. He couldn't walk. He was carried out. He could not walk. He was

25 carried away.

1 Q. And then you told us you were called out the next day. And where

2 was he when you saw him?

3 A. Yes. I saw him.

4 Q. Yes. But where?

5 A. That evening. That evening. Before he went to the stable. And

6 then from the stable he was carried to the isolation cell, and that is

7 where he was liquidated.

8 Q. Okay. And is that where you say you saw his body and the fire

9 extinguisher?

10 A. Yes, yes. That's right.

11 Q. Did you conduct any sort of post-mortem examination of him?

12 A. You don't need any post-mortem. One could establish death and all

13 the certain and uncertain causes of death. The man was liquidated. He

14 was killed. It was a violent death. He was covered in blood around his

15 mouth and nose. The fire extinguisher next to him was also bloodstained

16 in the area where he was hit, and that was around his chest. And that is

17 how we were given a blanket to wrap him in and carry him out. And the

18 driver, who was a very -- who treated us very decently and gave us a

19 packet of cigarettes each.

20 Q. And were you made to -- were you made to write a death certificate

21 for him?

22 A. To tell you honestly, I don't remember. I did write several death

23 certificates. I believe his was one of them. But I did several of them.

24 But that was seven months, and there were several dead people and only one

25 from Teslic was the only one who died of natural causes. All the others

1 died violent deaths.

2 Q. All right. Can we -- I'll come back to the numbers in a moment.

3 Do you remember Esad Bender?

4 A. Bender. E-R. He was allegedly from what I heard there, he was a

5 poor man and he was a journeyman and used to work for Omer Filipovic.

6 Q. Was he in the same stable as you?

7 A. Yes. In the middle row.

8 Q. And what happened to him?

9 A. Well, how shall I tell you what happened to him? The same as to

10 the all the others. He was taken out, beaten, beaten every night. No

11 sooner does night fall, they come and beat, and you have to listen to this

12 and you must be very stable mentally to survive, to avoid being

13 traumatised. As soon as the night comes. So this Bender was taken out

14 several times and beaten. And one morning, after 10.00 or 11.00 I was

15 lying there in the first row and he was lying in the middle row and they

16 called me there and I looked and the man was dead. And they said that he

17 was suffering from cancer that, he had a carcinoma. But nobody knew

18 whether he did have a carcinoma or anything. Those were bruises. Those

19 were injuries. That is a violent death. I did that and I was an expert

20 witness in the district court in Banja Luka before the war. I did the

21 post-mortems. I did exhumations. And it was clear as daylight to me. And

22 every word I'm saying here is gospel truth. He died a violent death, but

23 also the record was taken and I was told that he was suffering from a

24 carcinoma. And that is what I wrote down, because there was no

25 alternative. That is how it was. It is horrible -- I mean, it was

1 horrible.

2 Q. Now, you've told us that only one man that you can remember died

3 of natural causes, and that was a man from Teslic. Over the period that

4 you were in Manjaca, between June and November, roughly --

5 A. From Teslic. There's a location called Teslic. There's a

6 rehabilitation centre there called Teslic. And from this town of Teslic

7 there was an elderly man who brought with him his medical documents when

8 he was arrested, and it said in those documents that he had carcinoma of

9 the lungs and he died of natural causes. Nobody beat him. He died. And

10 his body was driven away. What happened after, I don't know. That is the

11 only case of natural death.

12 Q. Roughly in that period, between June and November, how many people

13 do you think died in Manjaca from beatings or other killings?

14 A. Well, not such a large number if we were to judge by the number.

15 I think 10 to 15 men, not more. I'm not sure. Things may have happened

16 that I'm not aware of.

17 Q. Beatings. In your own stable, you say the number varied. But how

18 would the beatings take place? Would they take place in the stable or

19 outside?

20 A. Well, either they were beaten up and they died or they would be

21 taken away and they would never come back. And we didn't know what

22 happened to him. Or he would be exchanged, or there were cases of people

23 of 60 and who were sick, to be released, so that --

24 Q. I'm sorry. You misunderstand. I plan to come on to --

25 A. Numbers changed.

1 Q. Yes. If -- there were beatings, you've told us. Would the

2 beatings take place inside the table or outside the stable?

3 A. Inside the stables but in particular -- particularly outside

4 during the night. As night fell, they would come and call men out. There

5 was a judge who was called out two or three times. And luckily he did not

6 respond. He certainly would not have lived to see the day. And they

7 would take people out by calling their surnames. And the man either

8 didn't come back or he would come back beaten up. And this happened

9 mostly at night, after 11.00 or 12.00.

10 Q. You told us about the minefield that was put down. Was anybody

11 ever injured by a mine?

12 A. Yes. A young man from Kotor Varos. He was washing his shirt and

13 jacket, and he was about to hang it on the fence and the mines were laid -

14 and we all were aware of that. Unfortunately he stepped on it. And I was

15 standing there. It was right next to my stable. I was standing there

16 when I heard the explosion. He had big rubber boots on, and the boot went

17 20 metres into the air. We ran up to him, took him to the surgery, put a

18 compress. His right leg had been cut off below the knee, and his left

19 also -- the lower leg had been destroyed. We did what we could. An

20 ambulance came and took him off to Banja Luka to the surgery ward. What

21 happened, I don't know. I never heard anything about it after that.

22 Q. Now, what about interrogations? Were you yourself questioned or

23 interrogated?

24 A. I was the first to be interrogated when I arrived at Manjaca, the

25 first. And he was correct with me.

1 Q. First of all --

2 A. He asked me how I was.

3 Q. First of all -- I'm sorry. Where were you taken to be

4 interrogated?

5 A. A policeman came to the stable and took me to the command, into a

6 room there. I sat down. They gave me a piece of paper and said, "Write

7 whatever you have to say about yourself." I didn't write a lot. And then

8 he put questions to me. Had I done my military service, did I have arms,

9 had I been on the front, and so on.

10 Q. Did he tell you --

11 A. We had a good --

12 Q. I'm sorry. Yes. Sorry. You wanted to say -- you had a

13 good ...?

14 A. We finished it around 2.00 a.m. It started in the evening, and we

15 finished about 2.00 a.m., this conversation. He told me his name was

16 Vanja, that he was a lawyer. He was short. And afterwards he helped me

17 quite a bit compared to others.

18 Q. Okay.

19 A. I wouldn't be walking around here if it hadn't been for him in

20 Manjaca. Just the same applies to the commander in Sanski Most that I

21 mentioned, regardless of everything.

22 Q. This lawyer, Vanja, was he in uniform?

23 A. Yes. He wore a camouflage uniform, you know, the one that is

24 fashionable nowadays in armies.

25 Q. Did he tell you of any allegations that had been made against

1 you?

2 A. Yes. He said that there were accusations, that I was one of those

3 people who was fighting against the Serb people, et cetera. That was the

4 policies. It was a political act, which was common knowledge. All this

5 came from Sanski Most.

6 Q. Yes. But I'm interested in -- not common knowledge but what he

7 actually said to you. Can you remember now what he said you were being

8 accused of?

9 A. Well, he said that I was accused of being on the front line,

10 fighting, that before that I was in the SDA party and I was -- I'm still

11 in that party. I'm not hiding that fact, I'm still in the party, but I

12 don't wish to have any positions. I'm just a member of the municipal

13 board in Sanski Most. Because of my profession and my work, I have

14 abandoned any political functions. The fact that I was a Muslim, a member

15 of the SDA party, the Party of Democratic Action and so on. That is how

16 it was.

17 Q. All right.

18 A. He was a member of the Serbian democratic party and nothing

19 happened to him. But this was all part of the system.

20 Q. Was there any reference to any medical mall practice that you were

21 supposed to have engaged in?

22 A. Yes, there was. Yes. A thing -- one forgets things. It was ten

23 years ago. I didn't study for this. When I was studying for my

24 baccalaureate, I would take notes. But I didn't prepare myself for this.

25 But yes. Allegedly I had given injections to Serb children that I

1 shouldn't have given, and I was a specialist of internal medicine. I

2 can't remember when I last examined a child. Apparently I had given them

3 injections in Lusci Palanka, also injections to women for them not to get

4 pregnant and -- so that Serb children would not be born. But I said,

5 "Sir, Mr. Investigator, who would discover such an injection in the world

6 today, he would win the Nobel Prize. When you think of the Pope and all

7 these campaigns nowadays. You see, I have to speak out sometimes. We

8 have to understand. There's not much we have to discuss here, you see.

9 These are facts. It was fascism. It was to destroy two peoples. And

10 there's no dilemma about that. A doctor, Filipovic, he was a

11 gynaecologist - he's an American now - he came beaten up. Derviskadic

12 examined him. He didn't know what to do. And then he asked me, "Should

13 I go to Banja Luka to the hospital?" And I said, "don't go. We'll help

14 you." He went to Banja Luka and came back. And he got it on his head.

15 And that is the truth. He was also charged of giving injections to Serb

16 women. My wife is Serbian. I could have given her an injection, and then

17 I wouldn't have to take her to a gynaecologists for examinations.

18 Q. Okay. Was anything finally said to you during this interrogation

19 or later about what was going to happen to you? Were you going to be

20 brought before a court?

21 A. Yes, that these political representatives who advocated such a

22 position, the position of the Crisis Staff of Bosnian Krajina and the Serb

23 republic -- it is the same theology -- no, sorry, ideology. The same way

24 of thinking. It is clear that they would be liquidated, that only

25 those -- that those who were not guilty would be sent home. But it would

1 be best to go to third countries. I too was told when people saw for

2 themselves that --

3 Q. All right. I'm sorry, doctor. I know it's difficult and

4 emotional, but all I want to know is were you told --

5 A. I'm sorry. I won't do it again.

6 Q. All I want to know is were you told whether or not you'd been

7 brought -- you would be brought before a court.

8 A. Yes. Yes, I was told.

9 Q. And what were you told would happen to you when you'd be brought

10 before the court?

11 A. Well, you know what happens when you go before a military

12 tribunal, especially under such charges. That I am a nationalist, et

13 cetera. And I don't see any such nationalism. And when I look around

14 here and elsewhere, there were the smallest -- among Muslims, they were

15 the fewest who fanned ethnic hatred. There's no such thing here in The

16 Hague or elsewhere. So we know exactly who did what.

17 Q. Now, you've told us that you didn't -- you couldn't complain about

18 the way you were treated by this lawyer during your interrogation. What

19 about other people who were taken for interrogation? Did anything happen

20 to them?

21 A. Each one of them came back beaten. I told you. One had to be

22 strong to preserve one's mental health. They would invite me to have

23 whiskey with them, to get me drunk so that under the influence of alcohol

24 I might have said something. I don't hate anyone. I'm related to Serbs.

25 But when the commander fell ill, the warden fell ill, and then I treat

1 them and then they have to go to the clinic and then peasants would come

2 to the surgery for examination.

3 Q. All right. First of all, let's deal --

4 JUDGE AGIUS: [Microphone not activated].

5 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Your Honour, please.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: I would invite you to exercise a little bit of

7 control over the witness; otherwise I will do it. He's your witness. I

8 wouldn't like to interfere much. But I think he's getting a little bit

9 too excited about the whole affair and he's running --

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I won't do it again.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Try to answer the question -- try to answer the

12 question and just the question, sir, because otherwise you've been making

13 the Prosecutor's life difficult in a way. I mean, it's --

14 I do appreciate that you have problems.

15 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I don't have problems. I just -- it's

16 just -- it's just difficult to stop him. But I'm doing --

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Try and -- I do appreciate that -- I think he has to

18 draw a line.

19 MS. KORNER: Well, Your Honour -- I think, yes. I understand what

20 Your Honour means, and I'll try and keep it a bit shorter.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: It's not your fault. It's his fault; not yours.

22 MS. KORNER:

23 Q. You told us that they would invite you to have whiskey with them.

24 Who do you mean? The guards?

25 A. The police commander and a lieutenant and other members of the

1 police.

2 Q. You also told us in that same answer that when the commander fell

3 ill and the warden fell ill, you treated them. So you treated Popovic,

4 did you?

5 A. Popovic and another policeman called Spaga -- nicknamed Spaga. He

6 got a high fever. I tried with infusion solution and everything else. It

7 didn't work. And I sent him to the clinic for infectious diseases. He

8 spent a month there and he returned. The man changed his opinion about me

9 altogether and everything else. And the commander, Lieutenant Colonel

10 Popovic, had angina pectoris. He had heart problems. I would send him to

11 his colleagues I used to work with in Banja Luka, Dr. Ristic and I forget

12 now all the names and so on.

13 Q. All right. I want to turn not last 15 minutes or so to a slightly

14 different topic. The water at the camp -- I'd like you to have a look,

15 please, at a couple of documents, which are, first of all, P398. That's

16 in the Banja Luka binder.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: 3 ...?

18 MS. KORNER: -- 98.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Mm-hm.

20 MS. KORNER:

21 Q. This is a document dated the 27th of July from the 1st Krajina

22 Corps. And it deals with results of tests of water for the -- I can never

23 pronounce that word -- Karadordevo farm and the prisoner of war camp in

24 Manjaca. And it talks about repairing the water pipes.

25 Now, first of all, what was the water like at the camp?

1 A. First of all, in the stable at first there was an old water tap

2 that you could use. But it stopped working about ten -- after ten days,

3 and there was no water after that. But detainees would go to the lake in

4 line and bring water. And sometimes you would even see tadpoles in it.

5 Q. What was the quality of the water like, then?

6 A. Dreadful.

7 Q. Now, this is an order of some kind to repair water pipes, saying

8 prisoners -- there are enough prisoners of war who can be engaged as

9 labourers with the appropriate security. Was there any such repair of the

10 water pipes?

11 A. I never saw any repairs being done, nor were any repairs done.

12 Q. Because if we look at the next document that -- just very quickly,

13 which is P406, please. That's an order dated -- I'm sorry, it's a request

14 for urgent intervention due to failure to respond, 5th of August, 1992,

15 where they repeat that request for solution to the problem of water.

16 There was no reaction after that, no repair of the water pipes

17 after that either, doctor? Is that what you're saying?

18 A. As I said, nothing was ever repaired -- nothing was repaired, nor

19 was there any water afterwards. There was at the beginning for a few

20 days, and then it stopped. No repairs were done.

21 Q. Now, what about labour? Were prisoners made to work?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And I want you to look at another series of documents, please.

24 First of all, P417, a document dated the 22nd of August, 1992. And it's

25 headed "Reconstruction works on the church in the village of Sljivno,

1 order." And then it's -- and the order comes on behalf of General Talic.

2 It says: "On the basis of demonstrated need to repair the Serbian

3 Orthodox church in the village of Sljivno and in order to ensure the work

4 is done and material used according to plan," he then issued instructions,

5 which at item 5 said that "The collection centre at Manjaca shall provide

6 the work force to carry out all the work on the site, and the head of the

7 centre shall personally answer to me for this."

8 Do you remember prisoners having to work on reconstructing a

9 church?

10 A. Not reconstruction. The construction of a church, which was

11 roughly 12 by 10 metres, a beautifully built church, as said in the order,

12 and it was done by the detainees. You had all the crafts represented,

13 from electricians to assembly workers. Up to 1.000 men would work on it a

14 day, on the church, and the church was built.

15 Q. Would you look now, please, at document numbered P429 and P428.

16 We might as well have the two together.

17 In P429 -- well, just -- sorry, P428. The 1st of October there's

18 a request for the engagements of prisoners of war from Manjaca prisoner of

19 war camp for works to be carried out by the 1st Pontoon Battalion,

20 loading and reloading wood, 20 prisoners of war for a period of ten days.

21 "The battalion can provide its own security and accommodation for

22 prisoners, the prison building in Troselji near Nova Topola." Do you

23 remember any prisoners being sent off to an area near Nova Topola?

24 A. Well, to tell you the truth, I can't really remember. But they

25 went wherever they were called. Probably they went there too, because

1 they went to cut wood. A Catholic was killed cutting wood, in fact, at

2 Manjaca. I just remembered that. That's the truth. This is the truth.

3 Yes, yes. They went to Jajce and all over the place, to the hydro power

4 station and other works that they had to do.

5 Q. All right. And then the other document is a request for Manjaca

6 prisoners for road construction, camouflage company, and fortification

7 company.

8 To your knowledge, were prisoners taken to work in areas where

9 there was fighting going on?

10 A. I don't know that. I can't say. They didn't dig. There was no

11 fighting. In Banja Luka there was no war.

12 Q. No. Well, it may -- if we look at the next two documents -- the

13 last two documents on this, please, P424 and P436.

14 424 is an order dated the 22nd of September -- sorry. I've got it

15 slightly out of order -- asking, also authorising, signed by Colonel

16 Vukelic, that prisoners from Manjaca should work on a farm in Banja Luka,

17 up to 60 prisoners of war daily.

18 Do you remember prisoners being taken to work on a farm near Banja

19 Luka?

20 A. Yes, there were. People were taken for agricultural work. Only

21 I'd be wrong if I say I know of this particular farm, but I know that

22 they were taken to do farm work.

23 Q. And finally this, P436, dated the 5th of November. This is

24 taking people from Manjaca to clean up Jajce hydro electric powerplants

25 and engage them until the powerplants become operative, and then a

1 military battalion to secure the prisoners. "Lieutenant Colonel Popovic

2 shall answer to me for engaging the prisoners of war, and Colonel Vukelic

3 shall answer to me for the entire operation of cleaning up the Jajce 1

4 hydro electric plants." And there's a -- it appears to be signed on

5 behalf of Talic.

6 Do you remember prisoners having to go to this particular hydro

7 electric plant in Jajce?

8 A. Yes. The hydro electric plant in Jajce, 1 and 2. They did go

9 there and work there, especially people who had those crafts, to get the

10 powerplant going again. They did go.

11 Q. Thank you.

12 MS. KORNER: Yes. Thank you very much.

13 Your Honour, that completes that topic.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Ms. Korner.

15 We'll continue tomorrow morning -- tomorrow afternoon at 2.15.

16 Hopefully we will finish tomorrow. Thank you.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That would be nice. If possible. I

18 have a lot of business and professional obligations to attend to in my

19 hospital. But I am ready to stay for as long as necessary.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Doctor, we'll do our utmost to keep you here the

21 least possible. And I'm sure that everyone will cooperate and understand

22 that. Thank you.

23 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned

24 at 6.30 p.m., to be reconvened on Tuesday,

25 the 4th day of June, 2002, at 2.15 p.m.