1 Tuesday, 4 June 2002

2 [Open session]

3 --- Upon commencing at 2.17 p.m.

4 [The witness entered court]

5 [The accused entered court]

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Registrar, could you call the case,

7 please.

8 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour, as always. And this is the case

9 number, IT-99-36-T, the Prosecutor versus Radoslav Brdjanin and Momir

10 Talic.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you.

12 Mr. Brdjanin, good afternoon to you. Can you hear me in a

13 language that you can understand?

14 THE ACCUSED BRDJANIN: [Interpretation] Good afternoon. Yes, I

15 can.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you.

17 General Talic, good afternoon to you. Can you hear me in a

18 language that you can understand?

19 THE ACCUSED TALIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours.

20 Yes, I can hear you in a language that I understand.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Pardon? Could you repeat the last part. I can hear

22 you in a language I can understand. Okay.

23 I just wanted to inform you that Mr. -- you may sit down. You may

24 sit down. I just wanted to inform you that Mr. Zecevic has been appointed

25 as your lead counsel according to a decision taken on the 31st day of May

1 and only communicated to me today. I suppose it has been communicated to

2 you as well, Madam Fauveau.

3 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] No, not yet. But I was

4 informed that a decision was filed today.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. So General Talic, this is to confirm to you

6 that the lead counsel that you had opted for has been approved and

7 appointed.

8 I also notice that he is currently assigned to represent the

9 accused Simic in the other case that is -- in another case that is pending

10 before this Tribunal and that it is in your interest to have a meeting

11 with Mr. Zecevic -- or Zecevic as early as possible to make sure that he

12 is in a position to give you all the time that you require, because it's

13 not easy to split one's time to two different cases being heard at the

14 same time and for at least half of the year at the same -- at the same --

15 either morning --

16 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, if I can intervene, there's no problem.

17 I know what's happened in the Simic case.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't.

19 MS. KORNER: I do though. And it's not going to cause any problem

20 as far as --

21 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Ms. Korner. I thank you for putting my

22 mind at rest at least.

23 MS. KORNER: I'm aware of his position, as I think Madam Fauveau

24 is aware. And it will not cause any difficulty in representing

25 General Talic.

1 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. That's very important for me to know.

2 And I'm sure also it puts General Talic's mind at rest, that he will be

3 well looked after. I'm sure that together with Madam Fauveau the team

4 will -- will guarantee your defence as best as possible. Thank you.

5 Yes. I see Mr. Ackerman.

6 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, just under the heading of Tribunal

7 amusements, everybody but Madam Fauveau has been notified about

8 Mr. Zecevic and everybody but me has been notified about Mr. Trbojevic as

9 well.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: You haven't received --

11 MR. ACKERMAN: No. We never received notice. But everyone else

12 did, so we know that he's been appointed. So I think there must be a

13 policy not to give notice --

14 JUDGE AGIUS: And to be frank -- to be frank with you, I was --

15 I've been asking myself why on earth doesn't Mr. Ackerman introduce

16 Mr. Trbojevic as his co-counsel when he has already been appointed. I

17 think I have the copy here, if you want to have a copy, Mr. Ackerman. I

18 can give you a copy myself, and that would spare me having to go through

19 other channels.

20 Yes. Having -- I will make sure that you have a copy.

21 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, by having raised it, I think it will probably

22 be in my box within the hour, Your Honour.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. I suppose so. But it's not something that

24 should happen. I mean -- anyway.

25 Appearances for the Prosecution.

1 MS. KORNER: Joanna Korner and -- I keep doing this. Joanna

2 Korner assisted by case manager Denise Gustin.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Ms. Korner. And good afternoon to

4 you.

5 Appearances for Radoslav Brdjanin.

6 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I'm John Ackerman with my new

7 co-counsel Milan Trbojevic and Marela Jevtovic.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Ackerman. Good afternoon to you.

9 And appearances for General Talic.

10 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President,

11 Your Honours. I'm Natasha Ivanovic-Fauveau, counsel for the accused

12 General Talic, and I'm still alone.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: In actual fact, I am remembering now, Mr. Ackerman,

14 that with regard to your new co-counsel, I myself wasn't handed a copy but

15 Judge Janu was and she gave me hers. So -- so that's how it happens.

16 Anyway, Dr. Sabanovic, good afternoon to you.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. May I ask you to stand up and repeat the

19 solemn declaration that you made before this Tribunal yesterday once

20 more.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

22 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

23 WITNESS: ENIS SABANOVIC [Resumed]

24 [Witness answered through interpreter]

25 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. You may sit down.

1 Madam Korner will continue with her examination-in-chief today.

2 And then the Defence teams will proceed with their cross-examination.

3 In the meantime, Ms. Korner, just to give you and of course the

4 rest an indication of our time schedule for today, we'll be sitting now

5 for the first part until 3.45. Then we'll have a break of 15 minutes,

6 resuming at 4.00. Okay? And after that, we'll stop at 5.15, resuming

7 again at 5.30, and finish at 6.30. Okay?

8 MS. KORNER: Yes.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Thanks.

10 MS. KORNER: Thank you very much, Your Honour.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Please

12 Examined by Ms. Korner: [Continued]

13 Q. Dr. Sabanovic, I want to start this afternoon with dealing with

14 two of the major transports that came to the camp. First of all, towards

15 the end of July or thereabouts, did trucks arrive carrying people from

16 Sanski Most?

17 A. Yes, they did.

18 Q. And did they arrive in the early evening?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. With an escort of armed policemen, mainly wearing camouflage

21 uniforms but some, I think you said, were wearing former JNA uniforms.

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Now, did the trucks come into the camp that evening?

24 A. They didn't enter the camp. They were outside the camp next to

25 the north entrance, the entrance that is to the north of the camp.

1 Q. And at that stage were Dr. Derviskadic and the nurse, Asim Bajric,

2 called to examine some of the people?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And were you then called out as well?

5 A. They called me after everybody had already been examined. There

6 were seven men, and Dr. Derviskadic wasn't quite sure about them because

7 they were in a very poor state. And then medical corps sergeant came, the

8 one who was in charge of Manjaca, and took me outside the camp. I didn't

9 really feel particularly well, but I did go to see those seven patients.

10 Six of them were comatose, that is, they were unconscious. And one could

11 communicate -- and he came from Kamengrad near -- a village near Sanski

12 Most. And since we could communicate, I told them they could stay in our

13 hospital facilities so they could treat them, that we had medicines, and

14 that we could admit them to him. He didn't need any surgical

15 interventions. However, one of the policeman said that they would be

16 taken to the military hospital in Banja Luka. And that patient, that

17 inmate -- or rather, he wasn't that inmate yet. He said that he'd go to

18 Banja Luka. And then I finished the examination of those seven men.

19 Q. Just pause before you go on. Could you see what the cause of

20 their unconsciousness was? Were there any injuries you could see?

21 A. Four of them did not have any bodily injuries. They were

22 dehydrated and were in a very bad state because the trip that they had

23 made was done when it was very hot, so that four of them had no injuries

24 and three others had injuries. But these three too were also emaciated,

25 dehydrated.

1 Q. Now, having finished examining those seven men, were you taken to

2 one of the trucks?

3 A. Yes. They took me to a truck, to a transporter which had its back

4 door -- its rear door open, and I climbed up. They told me to look at

5 them, and I looked at those bodies. Now --

6 Q. Pause there. Sorry. Before you tell us about the bodies. When

7 they told you to look at them, first of all who told you, and can you

8 remember the exact words he used?

9 A. The exact words of the person who brought me there -- and he is a

10 medical corps sergeant or perhaps he has some higher rank, but he surely

11 is not below corporal. He brought me there because he was sent to fetch

12 me. And he brought me along to protect me and he told me to look at them

13 in that truck, what was in that truck.

14 Q. Did he describe using any particular word what you would find in

15 that truck, or did he tell you who?

16 A. Why, yes. He is an excellent man, and even at the time when he

17 took care of the hygienic conditions in the camp he behaved greatly. And

18 he said that there were people there who had suffocated during the

19 transport between Sanski Most and that place because of the heat, because

20 they had no air, they had simply suffocated for the lack of air on their

21 way to the camp at Manjaca.

22 Q. All right. So this was this medical corps corporal or sergeant.

23 Was there anybody else there that you didn't know who said anything to you

24 about the men in the truck?

25 A. Well, one was a boy, a young man who was -- studied dentistry and

1 then another one, Biscevic, who was in the camp with me. And before me he

2 had examined those men. Apart from this dentistry student, there was a

3 large number of people who had brought that -- who had escorted that

4 convoy. They were all from the police. And it was a very dramatic, a

5 very grave matter.

6 Q. All right. When you looked inside the truck, you'd been told

7 there were people who had suffocated. What did you see?

8 A. I saw bodies of those people in two rows, and I recognised quite a

9 number of them who were dead. There were 19 -- or 90 of them -- 19, I

10 believe.

11 Q. I want you to look, please, at a document that's already been

12 exhibited as Prosecutor's Exhibit 785.

13 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I'm sorry. That was the one that I

14 mentioned that I hadn't put on the list. But we can put the English on

15 the ELMO.

16 Q. Doctor, I want you to look, please, at the list of people that you

17 can see numbered 1 to 20?

18 MS. KORNER: And if we could put the English up.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you have the English version, usher?

20 MS. KORNER: Yes. Onto the ELMO. The English onto the ELMO,

21 please.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Ms. Korner and Ms. Gustin.

23 MS. KORNER:

24 Q. Doctor, do you recognise the names of the people who are listed

25 there?

1 A. I do, all of them.

2 Q. And are those the people that you saw -- those that you recognised

3 of them on the truck that day?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. It appears that some kind of examination was carried out by

6 doctor -- a Dr. Bosko Grubisa and Stanko Erceg. Did you know those

7 doctors?

8 A. They're my colleagues. Internal medicine doctors. Grubisa

9 used to work with me, somewhat younger. And Dr. Stanko Erceg a specialist

10 in occupational medicine, he worked with me, under me.

11 MS. KORNER: Yes. Thank you. If you could take the document away

12 now.

13 Q. Now, doctor, what happened to the truck with those men on it?

14 A. Well, let me tell you. That truck turned back and drove those men

15 away. They told me there that they were being taken to Sanski Most to be

16 buried there. As I have said, there was this dentistry student. Then

17 there was from the former system a police commander. The police commander

18 who was called Enver Burnic and who frequently came to Manjaca with the

19 police and went back with them. And the two of them likewise that

20 evening together with those dead, they went to Sanski Most as I was told.

21 However, it is not known to this day where they were buried. And the

22 search for the site of their burial still goes on. And these two, the

23 dentistry student --

24 Q. Can you pause for a moment I just want to make sure we all

25 understand. There are these dead men on the truck. Then you told us

1 about six men who are unconscious and a seventh who was able to talk to

2 you. In which group was Enver Burnic, the ex-police commander?

3 A. Enver Burnic would move about, who communicated with the police,

4 who walked about, like this dentistry student. And those seven and one of

5 them who was conscious and seven unconscious, they said they were taking

6 them to the military hospital in Banja Luka.

7 Q. And I'm sorry. Which group did Enver Burnic go with?

8 A. He went there with those, with the police who took back the dead

9 in that truck, via Siprica to Sanski Most.

10 Q. And you told us that these men -- do you include in that group

11 Enver Burnic -- had never been seen again? Or I'm sorry. You didn't say

12 that. You said, that it's not known to this day where they are buried.

13 A. That's right.

14 Q. Did you ever have a conversation with the camp commandant,

15 Lieutenant Colonel Popovic, about the fate of these men, as to what

16 happened to them?

17 A. Yes, I did.

18 Q. And when did you have a conversation?

19 A. Lieutenant Colonel Popovic told me in confidence that those dead

20 men had been taken to Sanski Most and that they would be buried there.

21 And those who were to go to Banja Luka, that they had never made it to

22 Banja Luka, that they ended in the Vrbas River, that they drowned -- or

23 rather, that they were killed and then thrown into the Vrbas.

24 Q. So that's those seven men who were drowned in the Vrbas.

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. And can you remember how long after this did Colonel Popovic tell

2 you what had happened to them?

3 A. The next day. That evening, the next day in the afternoon.

4 Q. Now, the other big convoy I want to deal with is the arrival of

5 the Omarska prisoners. Do you remember their arrival?

6 A. I do.

7 Q. Roughly how many people were brought from Omarska that you can

8 remember? Although we can find the figure from a document, but ...

9 A. Well, let me tell you. They arrived in late afternoon at dusk.

10 They were brought by a man from my place who was the police commander in

11 Prijedor, Simo Drljaca. He was head of them. And they also came from

12 the -- by the north gate. And they remained outside that night. And

13 around half past 7.00, I received a list saying that there were 1400 men

14 who had to be examined. That is roughly the figure.

15 Q. Okay. So they were outside the gate. Were they allowed into the

16 camp that night?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Were you able to examine them that night?

19 A. No, not that night. The next morning, those who were still

20 alive. Not all of them.

21 Q. Now, what happened to those prisoners from Omarska during the

22 course of the night?

23 A. It was near the stable in which I was; that is, that gate is near

24 this. It was a bastial night of killing, cries of pain, of an experience

25 which one doesn't live through often in -- and yet in wars and

1 unfortunately in a war in Europe it happened.

2 Q. Can you tell us what you could see what was happening. You've

3 told us you heard cries of pain. What could you actually see was

4 happening, if anything?

5 A. Well, I could see some -- now and then something, because they

6 would carry out from buses. They had arrived in buses. And they'd take a

7 dead body from the bus now and then. And what happened after that, I

8 don't know.

9 Q. You tell us you heard cries of pain.

10 A. I did, yes.

11 Q. One or two, or a lot?

12 A. It lasted all night. One could not sleep that night. It was

13 sheer horror. That experience was sheer horror.

14 Q. When you examined them the next morning, what did you see? What

15 was the state of the prisoners?

16 A. The next day around 11.00 -- and again, the weather was nice. And

17 they were bringing them because many of them could not move. So they

18 brought them out. Those were the severest -- the severest cases of all

19 the inmates who had been brought to Manjaca. They were dehydrated,

20 emaciated, with diarrhoea, high fevers, underweight, and practically

21 unbelievable how they could still live. So the severest, the worst cases

22 who were brought to Manjaca. That was the group in the worst state of

23 all.

24 Q. Did any of them have fresh injuries, or did they all appear to be

25 old injuries?

1 A. A large number -- when I say a large number, that is 50 to 100 --

2 had injuries, and more of them. I cannot explain. It was a large group.

3 We never stopped working that day without interruption, because they would

4 be brought in front of the infirmary, those who could move, and they

5 stood. We applied a special system to see what injuries they had

6 suffered. They had not entered the camp yet. Those were not injuries

7 that were inflicted on them in the camp. So there were over 100, I say,

8 with injuries, and they were in a very bad clinical state, all of them, 99

9 per cent.

10 Q. I want you now to look at the -- a video which I think that the

11 unit -- the video unit has got.

12 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, it's the Ashdown video again, the number

13 of which is P468.

14 [Videotape played]

15 MS. KORNER: Could we just pause for one moment, please.

16 Q. We can see that none of the men there have their shoes on. Was

17 that an instruction that you were given by the guards?

18 A. What do you mean an instruction?

19 Q. In other words --

20 A. No, no. If someone wasn't able to put their shoes on because they

21 had wounds on their feet or was ill, then that would happen. But they

22 weren't wearing their shoes. A lot of people were not wearing their shoes

23 in that barn.

24 Q. All right.

25 MS. KORNER: Can we go on then, please.

1 Q. And sorry, before we go on. Doctor, if you see anything that you

2 want to make a comment on or anybody that you recognise, could you just

3 ask the operators to pause.

4 MS. KORNER: Yes. If we can go on.

5 [Videotape played]

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, here the lieutenant colonel

7 called me here. I didn't know that he was there. I was lying about 3

8 metres away at that time.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Stop, Dr. Sabanovic. One moment.

10 Let's go back a little bit.

11 MS. KORNER: Yes.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Because I think he wanted -- I notice that he wanted

13 the video to stop even before the Popovic appeared. So let's start it

14 again, please.

15 MS. KORNER: Yes. And if the video operators could stop when

16 they hear the witness begin to speak.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. And let me explain to Dr. Sabanovic exactly

18 what I require.

19 Dr. Sabanovic, look at me. Look at me, please. You are going to

20 have relayed on your monitor a video recording. Now, there may be times,

21 instances, when you will be asked questions. And obviously when that

22 happens, Ms. Korner will ask for the technician to stop -- to freeze the

23 video. But there may be instances where you yourself want to tell us

24 something. To be able to do that, I want you to tell us when to stop,

25 when to freeze the video so that you can make your comments. But you have

1 to say "stop." The moment you say "stop," they will know exactly what

2 they have to do. And then you may proceed with your comments. Okay?

3 So let's start again from the beginning.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Okay.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

6 [Videotape played]

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Stop. You can stop here.

8 I would like to say at this point this gentleman was passing by

9 with the lieutenant colonel, and I was lying behind them to the left from

10 the position I'm looking from. I was on the left, and the lieutenant

11 colonel called to me and he said that I wasn't -- my place wasn't there

12 while the delegation was there and that we would be going to the

13 outpatient clinic. He said I shouldn't be lying in the barn, that we'd be

14 going to the outpatient clinic with our colleagues in order to meet the

15 delegation there. That's what I wanted to say.

16 MS. KORNER: Thank you.

17 [Videotape played]

18 MS. KORNER: Pause there for a moment.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Stop.

20 There is an ill person in this group, someone who was brought to

21 the camp. I think he was one of the most serious cases. All he had was

22 his ribs and his skeleton. I couldn't believe that someone could survive

23 in such a state without some sort of intensive care. Unfortunately -- he

24 was outside later on too. He was lying out -- lying outside. There were

25 flies and other insects. On his body -- he survived, as far as I have

1 heard. Where he is now, I don't know. But that is an example, a living

2 example, of a state where there is only -- where only bones remained and

3 those bones are just covered by skin and nothing else.

4 MS. KORNER: Thank you. If we could move on.

5 [Videotape played]

6 MS. KORNER:

7 Q. Do you recognise any of these people?

8 MS. KORNER: Just pause the video, please. Pause the video.

9 Pause, please.

10 A. Well, I know these people -- people meet me here, people meet me

11 in Germany in England, when I was part of a delegation in Denmark.

12 Everyone knows me, but I don't know everyone. There are about -- there

13 were several thousand people whom I examined, and I couldn't recognise all

14 those people. And these people are from other municipalities, whom I

15 didn't know. But I got to know them when I examined them later. So I

16 can't say now who everyone is. But in general I know all of them, because

17 I spent six or seven months there.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Ms. Korner, were you referring to the inmates or the

19 three persons who --

20 MS. KORNER: No. The people. The inmates.

21 Yes. If we can just finish it off, though I don't think there's

22 anything ...

23 [Videotape played]

24 MS. KORNER: Yes. I think that's more or less it. Thank you very

25 much.

1 Q. Now, doctor, apart from those major transports. During the time

2 you were there, were prisoners brought from a number of different

3 municipalities?

4 A. Yes, they were.

5 Q. Were the major ones, however, Sanski Most and Kljuc and then, of

6 course, the Omarska prisoners?

7 A. First of all, Sanski Most and Kljuc, and then those people from

8 Omarska, from the camp in Prijedor, three or four camps. And then people

9 were collected in villages. And then from Bosanska Dubica, Bosanska

10 Gradiska, Kotor Varos, and even Banja Luka. But few people from Banja

11 Luka. And then there were people from Croatia. I don't know where they

12 all came from. There were people from all over the place.

13 Q. All right. I want to ask you about -- a couple of questions about

14 other types of prisoners. But first of all, could you look at three

15 photographs that come from this period, August of 1992.

16 MS. KORNER: Your Honours haven't had this yet. The Defence have

17 got them. If they could be handed to the witness and to Your Honours.

18 And they will become Prosecutor's Exhibit -- okay. There are three, Your

19 Honours, already numbered 808 to 810.

20 Your Honour, they were taken by a photographer who accompanied one

21 of the journalists, as it were, investigations into this.

22 Have we got a spare set anywhere, just so we can put one up on the

23 ELMO, please. Could we put up 808, please, first of all.

24 Q. Now, doctor, this is a shot taken inside one of the stables. The

25 men that we can see lying there, certainly the two nearest the camera,

1 seem to have some kind of bandaging on their legs.

2 A. Yes. Their legs are bandaged. Plaster has been put on them. And

3 believe it or not, these people were brought from somewhere - I don't know

4 where they're from - but their bones had been broken. Maybe they jumped

5 out of windows. I don't know what they did. I know them well from

6 sight. And I've spoken to them too. But with your permission, I can say

7 that a man worked on a -- on a church and he fell off and broke his arm.

8 I plastered it. I didn't even take any x-rays. And believe it or not I

9 would meet these people later, and these people weren't even operated on

10 again. These people were brought there and they hadn't been there for

11 long, when they arrived with those plasters -- plaster casts on the right

12 legs of each person.

13 Q. And so you were able to at least put plaster casts onto people who

14 were injured.

15 A. Yes. We had plaster at the time, and we had bandages, but we

16 didn't have any x-ray machines. So we improvised to the best of our

17 ability.

18 Q. All right. Could you look, please, then at the next one, 809?

19 MS. KORNER: If we can put that on the ELMO.

20 Q. Could you tell us what we're looking at there, Dr. Sabanovic.

21 A. Well, here you can see part of the office there, and you can see

22 the stables on the left. You can see a reservoir which would bring in

23 water. And there are two soldiers behind it, they would bring the water.

24 And you can see this sign where it says "mines." That's what you can see.

25 All this is clear to me.

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1 Q. The water, this tanker or whatever it is. In addition to getting

2 water from the lake, was water brought in then?

3 A. This water in the tanker was brought in for -- to use for

4 bathing.

5 Q. How often was it brought in?

6 A. Very seldom. I didn't have a bath for over two months. I said

7 that on one occasion. But I haven't got anything now. It's resistance.

8 I don't know what.

9 Q. Okay. And could we look finally, please, at the last photograph,

10 P810. First of all, doctor, that's a shot taken from where? In other

11 words, what are we looking at there? The barns again?

12 A. Well, here you can see a guard who is at the gate. And it says

13 "entrance forbidden." In this -- the person wearing the red article of

14 clothing, that's -- that's me. And this is the person who has to let me

15 go to the command, that is to say, to the clinic, to examine a sergeant

16 or, rather, a policeman.

17 Q. All right.

18 A. And that's me in a good state. That was towards the end. That's

19 me, and that's the truth.

20 Q. All right. Can we just establish. You would come through that

21 gate towards where the cameraman was standing, would you, to come to the

22 offices?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And just so we can try and orientate ourselves --

25 A. The person in the uniform by the gate, this is someone who guards

1 the gate during the day. And further up there is -- there are the

2 policemen, someone from an observation post. And he opens the gate. And

3 when I am allowed, he will open the gate. We didn't have much freedom of

4 movement then. I would go from the camp to the commander, or rather, to

5 the clinic which is near the command in order to carry out examinations

6 when necessary.

7 Q. Okay. And just -- just so we can try and orientate ourselves, the

8 main entrance to the camp, was that towards the background or the

9 foreground? In other words, if you wanted to come into the camp, would

10 the gate to the camp be in the again -- through that gate towards where

11 the photographer was standing?

12 A. In this photograph, this entrance where it says "entrance

13 forbidden, camp" -- it says "camp, entrance forbidden," you can see that

14 on the inside -- if I'm looking at the picture from here, on the inside,

15 there is a man wearing some kind of a suit. You can say some sort of a

16 light military uniform. And I'm wearing this red jacket near the stables

17 and I'm waiting there. So --

18 Q. Yes. But --

19 A. On the inside, he will open the gate and I'll go out. That's the

20 main entrance.

21 Q. I see.

22 A. And that's the only entrance.

23 Q. Thank you.

24 A. That's the main entrance.

25 Q. Yes. Thank you very much, doctor.

1 MS. KORNER: You can take those photographs away.

2 Q. Now, I just want to clear up a couple of matters that I ought to

3 have covered yesterday before we deal with the ICRC and then visitors to

4 the camp.

5 The toilet facilities, what were they?

6 A. Are you putting this question to me?

7 Q. I am. Yes. I'm sorry. Could you just describe what the toilet

8 facilities were like.

9 A. Yes, I could. They were next to the exit from the stables.

10 Between the stables there would be two toilet facilities. You would dig a

11 hole which was 10 metres long, 3 metres wide, and 4 metres deep. It would

12 be covered with oak wood, and you'd have about ten openings in the wood

13 and that would be the -- those were the toilet facilities. It's quite

14 simple. You'd then fill it up with earth, when it was full and you'd

15 carry on. These people would just faint, the people from the Red Cross,

16 when they approached the grass where you could smell the urine and

17 everything. That was the worst thing next to those stables, when you had

18 to go to the toilet.

19 Q. Was the grass used by the prisoners for anything that was round

20 the toilets?

21 A. That grass which grew very well -- it grew very well because it

22 had been fertilised. It grew well, so smokers would take it. They would

23 dry it. And then they would roll it up in -- in a leaf, and they would

24 smoke it. Some of them didn't smoke but some did.

25 Q. Did you see any prisoner eat the grass?

1 A. Well, to tell you the truth, no, because if someone did that -- I

2 was there for five days. I didn't eat then. Nothing happened to me. In

3 June it was terrible. But towards the end of July when the Red Cross

4 came, then there were no longer any problems. But perhaps people did that

5 too in the beginning.

6 Q. No. Don't worry.

7 A. There were no limits.

8 Q. I just wanted to deal with what you actually saw.

9 Did you ever have to provide any sort of medical help to assist

10 people to use the toilets?

11 A. Well, we -- we improvised. There were people who weren't able to

12 defecate for three months, over three months. That was terrible. They

13 were in a terrible state. So we would --

14 Q. I don't think you need to --

15 A. Put him on an elevation. That was terrible. Terrible.

16 Q. I'm sorry. I didn't mean for you to describe in graphic detail

17 what you did. Just simply -- perhaps I can deal with it. Did you

18 provide --

19 A. That has a special name. It's called Kristinrane [phoen].

20 Q. Is that effectively, I don't know, an enema? Maybe the

21 translators don't know the word. All right. I think so we've got the

22 general idea.

23 MS. KORNER: I think we've got the general idea, Your Honour.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: The Chamber is satisfied with what the question

25 implies and what the answer more or less implies. Because I think there

1 is a problem with interpretation as you have suggested, Ms. Korner.

2 MS. KORNER: Yes. I think there is as well.

3 Q. Now, the arrival of the International Red Cross in July -- I'd

4 like you to look please at a document that's already been looked at, I

5 think, or marked P -- no. It's been marked. P394.

6 Now, this is a document dated the 16th of July, 1992, which is a

7 report on a visit by the International Red Cross to Manjaca, signed in the

8 original, I think, by Lieutenant Colonel Milutin Vukelic. And there's a

9 description of the visit. And if you could look at the second paragraph.

10 There were apparently three people. And said -- it says this: "The

11 entire team broke off today's discussion and visited the camp because

12 apparently they had not been allowed to meet with four prisoners

13 (criminals) on whom a military court had earlier been passed judgement.

14 The representatives were shown their sentences and were even allowed to

15 talk to them freely. They were surprised at this and made observations

16 about the quantities of food, loss of weight of the prisoners, the risk of

17 an epidemic breaking out and the like. They had no valid points to

18 corroborate their observations. And their suggestion to have a group of

19 medical experts examine the prisoners was rejected."

20 I think I'll finish and then ask you the questions. "Specifically

21 they demanded the release of 19 prisoners on account of their state of

22 health. In reality, these individuals were amongst the greatest

23 extremists. They rejected our explanation that these people were

24 guaranteed improved medical care and that they could see for themselves.

25 They brought out accusations at the treatment of the prisoners. They

1 claimed to have seen fresh traces of blood and had no answer to the

2 question of the prison commander as to why they had not allowed a doctor,

3 or one of the prisoners, to establish that immediately." And then it

4 goes -- it says this, after some criticism of the team member's wife. "We

5 demanded that in future they announce their visit at least two to three

6 days in advance, send us a detailed work plan, and do not change the

7 camp's work timetable. Their dissatisfaction is not the result of

8 conditions in the camp but one, our resolve to respect international

9 regulations concerning the treatment of prisoner of war, although they

10 keep on quoting certain articles from that law, thinking that we know

11 nothing about them. They complained of the removal of their equipment,

12 unauthorised release of individuals, a refusal of them to admit they spoke

13 Serbian," and so on and so forth.

14 Now, doctor, first of all, that first visit, were you able to meet

15 the representatives of the ICRC?

16 A. What can I say? I had the opportunity to do so, but I didn't want

17 to and I wasn't allowed to. When I say "I wasn't allowed to," I couldn't

18 intervene personally or ask for anything. I never asked for anything.

19 Because if anyone asked for the Red Cross to provide them with anything,

20 to do something, then you knew what his fate would be. This was quite

21 distorted, this here.

22 Q. Yes. I'm sorry. We'll come back to that. But when you say "they

23 knew what his fate would be," what was happening to people who spoke to

24 the ICRC?

25 A. Well, they would be maltreated, beating in -- during the night.

1 It's impossible to describe that. If they'd asked for someone to be

2 released other for equipment or something like that, no one dared do

3 this.

4 Q. During the course of that first visit -- there's a reference here

5 to being able to meet -- I'm sorry. Yes. I'm sorry. Yes, there's a

6 reference to being able to meet four prisoners. It's not altogether

7 clear, because first of all the it says, "They'd not allowed to meet with

8 four prisoners criminals on whom a military court had earlier passed

9 judgement." And then it says, "The representatives were shown their

10 sentences, and were allowed to talk to them freely." Do you know who or

11 what that's a reference to, at all?

12 A. I can't tell you what it refers to. There were probably some

13 prisoners who came from the area north of Bosanski Novi, from those parts,

14 but I can't say who they were. I was constantly present there. But I

15 don't know who was sentenced. Nothing was said about that. I don't

16 know. I couldn't provide you with an answer.

17 Q. Now, that document --

18 MS. KORNER: Thank you. Which you can put away.

19 Q. Again, that can be taken from you. Thank you.

20 Talks about a demand for the release of 19 prisoners on account of

21 their state of health. And I want to move on to the topic of the release

22 of prisoners, if I may. Could we look next, please, at a document

23 numbered P405.

24 I think, doctor, if you get the B/C/S and we have the English up

25 on the ELMO. This is dated the 3rd of August from the 1st Krajina Corps

1 command. And it seems to have been signed on behalf of General Talic.

2 "Approval for the visit of the international committee to the

3 detention camps at Manjaca, Trnopolje, Omarska and Prijedor. On the basis

4 of the verbal order of the Main Staff commander, a visit by the

5 international committee and a team of reporters to detention camps in

6 Manjaca, Trnopolje, Omarska, and Prijedor, within the next two days is

7 approved. In this regard, all measures are to be taken to make conditions

8 in these camps satisfactory. This implies order, cleanliness, functional

9 medical care for the detainees, accurate records of detainees' arrival and

10 release, records of deaths and findings on the cause of death. Wherever

11 representatives of the detainees for contact with the camp authorities

12 have not been selected, this is to be done urgently." And then: "Camp

13 wardens must prepare for briefings." This assignment is urgent and any

14 barring of visits to the camps is out of the question."

15 Now, you've told us you remember, for example, Lord Ashdown

16 coming -- Paddy Ashdown coming round the camp. Do you remember, as it

17 were, a blitz in order to clean up Manjaca before international visitors

18 and reporters arrived?

19 A. I'll tell you briefly. It couldn't be cleaned, nor it was

20 cleaned. You have to do something, either to let off those 19 -- oh,

21 representatives of the camp. Oh, dear. Nobody ever asked anyone. Nobody

22 even tried to do that nor did that happen. And journalists, yes, they did

23 come. And when they come, then -- but I had the occasion to be in the

24 command when they come. But there was no making some order, and there was

25 no cleaning or additional building or something like that. No, there was

1 none of that.

2 Q. Do you remember any selection of prisoners who were supposed to

3 meet any of these international visitors?

4 A. I, since I went through it, I say it's really funny. Somebody

5 wrote that down. Well, we're not children. That's true. Nobody was ever

6 elected, nor was there any chance of being elected to anything. What

7 bodies? What representatives? Either humane or political or what? There

8 were no elections. You keep your head down and do as you are told. That

9 was it.

10 Q. Yes. That's a slight -- we discussed that yesterday when we

11 looked at the Geneva Conventions document. But when visitors were due to

12 come to the camp, do you recall certain prisoners being selected to talk

13 to the visitors?

14 A. Never, no one, except the three of us. We enjoyed that privilege,

15 if you can call it that, to talk to CNN, television, Sky News, and all

16 the journalists who came there. For the most part outside the camp in

17 the infirmary, and that's where the television usually came, to the

18 infirmary, and that is where we talked. We would be introduced as

19 inmates, who were the spokesman, if I may make this joke. Others never

20 had a chance. They just there. Journalists come on television go

21 there -- go through that and there were no photographs or anything.

22 Because I was a witness how all these tapes were checked as they were

23 coming out, to decide what could get out, what couldn't.

24 Q. If you ever spoke to journalists or to the ICRC, would you

25 complain about the conditions at the camp?

1 A. No. We didn't mention any -- or complain. We were saying that we

2 are calling up on the world to help us survive, because survival is what

3 it was about. And there was -- I mean, people must have been extremely

4 resistant not to die. I told you. Very few people died of natural

5 causes. But we didn't complain to that. We were not allowed to

6 complain. We asked the world to set us free. We were saying that there

7 were five, six, seven, or eight thousand people who were kept beyond any

8 human conditions. And on the CNN, yes I talked with journalists thousands

9 of times. And there was one -- a representative -- the first diplomat who

10 came there, and it was the Minister for Health and Social Welfare of

11 France, Mr. Kouchner, who because of these men who we now saw as a corpse,

12 he said, "Well, take it away. I don't want to look at it." I

13 accompanied him as he visited the camp. So the world also has its

14 skeletons in the closet.

15 Q. So just to be absolutely clear, you never told anyone about the

16 killings or the beatings or all the things you've described to us.

17 A. I said that everywhere I spoke of that, everywhere, except in the

18 camp.

19 Q. No. No.

20 A. Except in the camp.

21 Q. Yes. No. That's what you said?

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Except in the camps.

23 MS. KORNER: Except in the camps.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.

25 MS. KORNER: Thank you.

1 Q. Yes. I'm sorry, doctor. It's my fault. The question wasn't

2 clear enough.

3 All right. Can we also look, please, at the next document very

4 quickly, which shows the build-up, Exhibit P408, please, which to assist

5 will be found immediately after P713 in the Sanski Most binder, Volume 2.

6 It's also in the Banja Luka binder as well.

7 MS. KORNER: If we could put the English up, please -- oh, we

8 can't, because it's copied on the back.

9 No. Wrong document.

10 All right. If we just give it to the witness, because it's

11 photocopied on the back.

12 Q. This is dated three days later from the last document, 6th of

13 August. This time it's from the department for intelligence and security

14 of the 1st Krajina Corps, signed by Colonel Stefan Begojevic [phoen]. And

15 it says, "Selection of prisoners in the Manjaca POW camp." And I think

16 we've already looked at this, because Your Honours have already pointed

17 out that one can read the word underneath that's been blacked out?

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, exactly.

19 MS. KORNER:

20 Q. "By processing the war prisoners in Manjaca, we realise that

21 certain, quite large number of them, according to incrimination, do not

22 deserve to be treated as prisoners of war, did not have weapons, did not

23 participate in combat, were not in uniform."

24 Then "in order to free space to accommodate potential new

25 prisoners in Manjaca and in order for each prisoner to get the treatment

1 they deserve, we ask you send a responsible official or several of them to

2 the Manjaca camp, together with the Security Organ carry out a selection

3 of persons who could be released and persons who must remain in the camp.

4 According to our records in Manjaca, there are currently 944 prisoners

5 from Sanski Most. As you know, we have recently been attacked by European

6 and world media in connection with the resistance of concentration camps.

7 So this is sufficient reason to carry out a prisoner selection."

8 Now, first, doctor, were prisoners released after August of 1992?

9 A. Yes, some were released after August -- I mean, after this date.

10 Yes, some were released. But -- may I? There were people released, and

11 they went to England. Then a small group was sent to Banja Luka. Those

12 were over 60 and who were sick. But selection on the basis of these

13 criteria as it said here, no, none of that. But yes, at that time the

14 International Community did begin to bring pressure, and there were about

15 a thousand men from Sanski Most in the camp.

16 Q. Did you arrange or were you able to arrange for the release of any

17 individual prisoners at all?

18 A. Well, illness once. I was there and I was on that commission when

19 a nurse who used to work there from Banja Luka, and he worked in the

20 camp, I, and at times the investigator -- once I think we let go 15 or 20

21 men who went to Banja Luka; however, not home. And in the -- earlier,

22 sometime in July, a group of people were taken to Sanica, to the

23 municipality of Kljuc. But what happened to them is another matter.

24 Q. You say there was a nurse -- I'm sorry. You said you were on a

25 commission. What are we talking about? What sort of commission? Do you

1 mean a committee?

2 A. A commission made of a doctor, a nurse, an official representing

3 the Army of Republika Srpska who ran the camp and one of the

4 investigators. And when I give my opinion about the illness, then the

5 administration -- or rather, the camp command then decided which ones of

6 those would be released, that is, who would be sent to Banja Luka or

7 somewhere else.

8 Q. All right. And how often did this happen? I think you mentioned

9 two occasions.

10 A. A couple of -- a couple of occasions. A couple of times. Those

11 who left in September to England, I believe - about 20 of them. They were

12 severe cases - they were put on a bus in Manjaca. Then they went to Banja

13 Luka, and from there to England for treatment. And they were let go. And

14 then there was a group that went to Banja Luka and to Donja Sanica, the

15 municipality of Kljuc. I remember those three occasions.

16 Q. All right. I want you to look at one last document, please, and

17 that's Prosecutor's Exhibit 399.

18 MS. KORNER: And if we can put the English up on the ELMO very

19 briefly. I'm not going to go through the whole document.

20 Q. This is a document from the 1st Krajina Corps, dated the 27th of

21 July and signed by a Colonel Marticic [phoen]. And it's dealing with

22 stepping up security measures and defence of the prisoner of war camp.

23 Order. And it says "on the basis of the demonstrated need to step

24 up security measures in Manjaca prisoner of war camp because of possible

25 interventions and actions aimed at force or liberation of prisoners from

1 the outside or from within, and with a view to organising and taking

2 measures to step up the security and the defence of the camp and prevent

3 actions at liberating the prisoners, I issue the following." And then

4 there's a whole list of things that the camp commander is ordered to do.

5 Was -- did anybody -- well, we know there was no attempt to break

6 in and release people. But did anybody ever attempt to or successfully

7 escape from Manjaca?

8 A. As for the release, it wasn't like that. Nobody ever tried to

9 release like that. No way. But because of the pressure from abroad, some

10 Chetniks came from outside who at times attacked the camp. So this had to

11 do with it a little bit. But yes, people did flee from Manjaca. A man

12 from Sanski Most escaped. He reached Sanski Most, and in Sanski Most he

13 even paid to go to Bihac, and he reached Bihac and now he lives in Sanski

14 Most. His name is Smajlovic. He does not have one eye. He was a

15 member of the 5th Corps of the BH army in Krajina.

16 Q. Okay. You say that because of the pressure from abroad, some

17 Chetniks came from outside who sometimes attacked the camp. What are you

18 talking about there?

19 A. No. But there were already some indications that from around from

20 the neighbourhood -- because there was a big mountain there. So from that

21 area, there's a Chetnik place, has been one since World War II. I mean,

22 everybody -- it's common knowledge that Manjaca were like that. And there

23 were others who were even louder than those who ran the camp, and they

24 were afraid that the camp would be attacked and they would have problems.

25 Not to release people but -- and I know that some people who refused to

1 obey, I suggested that they be sent to the military hospital in Banja

2 Luka. Seven Chetniks who were very unruly, who even refused to obey the

3 rules of those Chetniks who had introduced and imposed a system of

4 warfare. They were even louder. They were even worse.

5 Q. I'm sorry. Can we just try and understand. Are you saying that

6 there were people outside the military, who you call Chetniks, extreme

7 Serbs, who came into the camp?

8 A. Yes, there were such things, but they were always stopped, I must

9 admit, I must say.

10 Q. All right. Did they get into the camp, or were they stopped by

11 the military before they could get in?

12 A. Those seven in the early days, whom I mentioned, they were

13 ill-famed. They disagreed even with the existing regime that ruled there.

14 Q. Pause, doctor. Sorry.

15 A. They were arrested outside the camp.

16 Q. Okay.

17 A. And brought to the camp. And I examined them, and they went on a

18 hunger strike. And after the fifth day of the strike, I suggested in

19 order to avoid a certain endocrinological changes in the organism to send

20 them to the Banja Luka hospital. That was done. And although they were

21 notorious Chetniks, they left me alone, they treated me fairly,

22 regardless. But what I said was one fled. Three men came --

23 Q. Okay. Doctor. Just pause. Can we just make this absolutely

24 clear. There were seven extreme Serbs who were outside the camp and they

25 were arrested. Is that what you're saying?

1 A. Yes, I am.

2 Q. All right. And they were arrested, as you've said, for unruly

3 behaviour. What do you mean? Were they trying to get into the camp?

4 Were they firing weapons? What were they actually doing that led to their

5 arrest?

6 A. No. When they were arrested -- I was told of course I couldn't

7 see that. But I was told that they had been arrested because they did not

8 comply with the rules -- with the regulations of the then authority. They

9 wanted an even more fierce approach to waging the war against those they

10 were waging the war against.

11 Q. All right. So it was just that they had been arrested by

12 authorities and brought to the camp and imprisoned. Just answer that yes

13 or no, please, doctor.

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. All right. Were there other Serbs inside Manjaca, apart from

16 these seven men?

17 A. Well, yes. In the camp, there -- yes, there were, a few. From

18 Derventa I know one came. And there was another one -- a short man --

19 Q. Don't bother to describe them. I just want to know. Were there a

20 number of Serbs in the camp.

21 A. Yes. Yes, there were a few Serbs. A sergeant one of them.

22 Q. And what -- did you find out why they were in the camp, what they

23 had done?

24 A. Because they disagreed with a certain regime.

25 Q. Were any of them there for any other reason other than

1 disagreement with the regime?

2 A. I've told you. There was a sergeant who had fled from Banja Luka,

3 deserted from the army. He came from somewhere around Nis -- because I

4 had a joke with him. And he headed for Ljubljana, but he was caught and

5 brought to the camp.

6 Q. All right. So he was a deserter. All right.

7 Okay. Finally on the -- before I turn to the visitors on the

8 camp, can I ask you about this. You've described the beatings and the

9 killings. Were there any guards who were particularly brutal that you

10 remember?

11 A. Let me tell you. Distinguished gentlemen, people are different;

12 so are the police. There was one of the worst -- but I do not really

13 condemn the police much. No. I condemn the one who issued orders to the

14 police and who led the police, and that is gospel truth and the reality,

15 because to this day the police do according to the concepts developed by

16 their superiors. And in the camp if they line us up in the so-called

17 line-up from all the stables, then the camp commander, all the

18 investigators and policemen come along, and then you see the police break

19 in like eagles among the little birds and start beating and kicking.

20 There was one called Bula whatever. Those were nicknames. I think they

21 called him Bula or -- a Muslim name. Something. That was his nickname.

22 He was very disagreeable towards others.

23 Q. The regime you've described of beatings, the deaths, was Popovic

24 the camp Komandant ever present at these beatings?

25 A. They allowed it and issued instructions.

1 Q. But when these beatings were -- to your knowledge, was Popovic

2 ever present when one of the men, his men, was carrying out a beating?

3 A. Well, this is a very broad question. When we have these line-ups,

4 lieutenant colonel stands like this and the investigators and the police

5 burst out. Or at night the police come take out somebody and then one can

6 hear screams. This did happen. And that I saw the lieutenant colonel

7 beat somebody, I didn't. But yes, it was with his authorisation.

8 Q. Yeah. I'm not asking whether you saw him beat anybody. But I

9 think you've given us the answer. Is there any way he could have failed

10 to be unaware of the deaths that you've described to us?

11 A. He had to know. He knew everything.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Ms. Korner, do you mind asking the witness whether

13 Colonel Popovic slept the night there, please.

14 MS. KORNER:

15 Q. Well, you heard -- Doctor, you've heard the Judge's question. Did

16 Colonel Popovic --

17 A. Yes. Thank you very much. Your Honour, yes, he did sleep there

18 all the time. He very seldom went to Banja Luka. He'd go there and come

19 back that same day. He slept there in the barracks, or rather, in the

20 camp command. He was present there. He went to Banja Luka very seldom,

21 except for examination when he had a complaint or something. He even

22 offered us, the physician, to sleep where the police slept. But we

23 refused that for safety reasons, because people get drunk and then things

24 can happen. So we preferred to sleep in the stable or in the infirmary,

25 that is, to be with the inmates.

1 Q. And then one final question before the break. Did you ever see --

2 leave aside General Talic, because I'm going to come to that. But

3 officers of superior rank coming to the camp, superior to Colonel

4 Popovic?

5 A. Why, yes. Before Popovic, there was another lieutenant colonel.

6 I believe he was a Serbian, came from Serbia. He was tall --

7 Q. Don't --

8 A. And later on, yes, they came. Officers came, majors, and so on

9 and so forth. I don't know much about those ranks., but yes, they did

10 come.

11 Q. No. Can we deal with from the time -- I'm sorry. Just to make

12 this absolutely clear. From the time Colonel Popovic was in charge of

13 Manjaca -- if you didn't recognise an officer who was senior in rank, then

14 say so straight away. But did officers senior in rank to him, other than

15 General Talic, visit Manjaca? Or of the same rank I should say.

16 A. No. No. No generals came. No generals came, other -- I mean,

17 the way you worded your question.

18 Q. What about people of equivalent rank? Would you -- would you be

19 able to recognise someone of equivalent rank; in other words, a lieutenant

20 colonel or a full colonel?

21 A. Yes. Yes. There were lieutenant colonels, majors, colonels.

22 Yes, they did come.

23 Q. Thank you.

24 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, that would be a convenient moment then.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Ms. Korner.

1 We will have a break of 15 minutes. If you require more time,

2 please do let me know. If you don't, we can -- we can proceed after 15

3 minutes -- resume after 15 minutes. Okay. Thank you.

4 --- Recess taken at 3.46 p.m.

5 --- On resuming at 4.04 p.m.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Korner.

7 MS. KORNER:

8 Q. Now, doctor, I want to deal with some of the Bosnian Serb

9 politicians and the like that visited the camp. First of all, I was

10 asking you about officers who came to the camp, and I excepted

11 General Talic. Now, did you ever see General Talic at the camp?

12 A. Yes, I did. Not in the camp but in the command of the camp.

13 Q. And when you say command of the camp, what do you mean by that?

14 A. I'm talking about the part which is outside of the stables where

15 the prisoners were kept.

16 Q. And how did you know it was General Talic? Had you seen him

17 before that visit?

18 A. Well, yes, I'd seen him before. I knew him before the war. I

19 knew him by sight. But I was told that he was there. The policemen told

20 me he was there. I was in the dispensary at the time.

21 Q. Did you actually see him arrive?

22 A. One of the officers came to be examined me and he told me that

23 General Talic had arrived in the camp. When he left, I saw him leaving

24 the command. His visit didn't last very long. He didn't spend very much

25 time there when he would visit.

1 Q. And in relation to the command where he went and your infirmary,

2 how close was that?

3 A. About -- between 20 and 30 metres away.

4 Q. Now, you said that he didn't spend very much time there when he

5 would visit. Did he visit once or more than once to your knowledge?

6 A. As far as I know, he visited on two occasions.

7 Q. And I know that timing is difficult, but can you remember roughly

8 when those visits were, the month or the time of year?

9 A. I didn't pay much attention to the dates or to anything else, but

10 I think it was towards the end of July, maybe August. It was in July or

11 August.

12 Q. Now, the next person I want to ask you about is Radoslav

13 Brdjanin. Had you seen him before your imprisonment in Manjaca?

14 A. I hadn't seen him, but I saw him on television on one occasion. I

15 didn't see him directly.

16 Q. You mean you didn't see him in real life. You just saw him on

17 television. Is that what you mean?

18 A. Yes. Yes, that's right.

19 Q. And did you see him on television once or more than once?

20 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, he said one occasion.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I can't --

22 JUDGE AGIUS: I think he's answered that.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Once. I saw him once.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, yes. You are right, Mr. Ackerman.

25 MS. KORNER:

1 Q. When you say him, what was -- on television, that is -- what was

2 he doing?

3 A. He gave political speeches, political speeches, though -- he

4 talked about mixed marriages, said that that shouldn't be allowed et

5 cetera, and he said similar political things, about the formation of a

6 state. They were political issues.

7 Q. You've said he gave political speeches, he talked about mixed

8 marriages. Did he say all of that on the one time that you saw him on

9 television, or did he -- did you hear about other speeches he had made?

10 A. I didn't hear other speeches. That was at the time.

11 Q. So the time you saw him on television, he was making a speech

12 about mixed marriages and similar political things about the formation of

13 a state. That was the one time you saw him.

14 A. Yes. On that one occasion, the speeches weren't very long. Those

15 were extracts. You know what that looks like. It wasn't a political

16 programme, but it was on the news on television.

17 Q. Now, did he ever visit Manjaca whilst you were there?

18 A. Yes. Yes.

19 Q. Once or more than once?

20 A. I think he was there once. I am not sure about a second visit.

21 They said that he was there on a second occasion, but I wasn't there. I

22 was in the infirmary. He gave a speech. There was an applause. People

23 applauded, and I then found out that there was an agreement that

24 prisoners -- that is to say, inmates -- should be ordered to listen to the

25 speech. And there was security there. I wasn't able to enter the

1 stables. I was outside because they were already giving the speeches, and

2 people applauded and the applause was greater than at a stadium because

3 there were between 800 and 900 people there. And the speech had to do

4 with the fact that those who were not guilty would be released. But it

5 was emphasised that they would be released to third countries, and those

6 who were guilty would either be sent to a military court and so on.

7 Q. All right. Let's take this in stages. You're sure of one visit;

8 you're not sure of the second. On the one visit that you're sure of, did

9 you see him at the camp?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And at what stage did you see him? When he came in? When he was

12 in the stable? Where?

13 A. When he came, I was in the infirmary when he was arriving. But I

14 saw him when he left the second stables, the one in the middle, the

15 central one. Because there are three stables there. That's when I saw

16 him.

17 Q. Now, how did you know this was Brdjanin? Did you recognise him,

18 or were you told this was Brdjanin?

19 A. As I said, I was well informed. It wasn't concealed. Nothing was

20 concealed. You know? Brdjanin arrived to visit Manjaca, and that wasn't

21 concealed. He went from one stable to another and he gave speeches. I

22 saw him as he was leaving the second stables.

23 Q. Okay.

24 A. And I know him, like this.

25 Q. All right. But before that visit, were you told that Radoslav

1 Brdjanin was coming to visit, or on the same day when he arrived?

2 A. Well, before -- before he arrived. There were people there to

3 meet him. It didn't take long. It was all done very quickly.

4 Q. And who was it who informed you before his arrival --

5 A. Police. A policeman or a nurse who worked up there with me -- we

6 were always informed about who was coming, whether it was the TV network,

7 a politician, the police, the army or representatives of the army. That's

8 how things always took place.

9 Q. And you say during that visit he went into the stable, he made

10 speeches, and there was applause.

11 A. That's right.

12 Q. Who was applauding?

13 A. Well, the inmates. They thought they'd be going home that, they'd

14 be released, that they'd go to third countries. When such an offer was

15 made -- well, they were people who were crying then. They thought that

16 they would never get out. But when someone up there in the camp was told

17 that they'd be released from the camp and would be sent anywhere in the

18 world, well, there could have been no greater joy for the people there, no

19 greater joy in the world, because it's a matter of life. If a person is

20 not in a situation in which he thinks he's going to die -- well, I had my

21 head against concrete and I thought I was going to die. So I'm not

22 surprised that people applauded. They were my neighbours, my friends, and

23 they applauded because they were promised that they would be released to

24 third countries.

25 Q. Were there -- I'm sorry. Did Vojo Kupresanin visit the camp?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Had you seen him before his visit, on television or at a rally?

3 A. Before going to the stables, I'd seen him on several occasion,

4 yes.

5 Q. I'm sorry. Can we --

6 A. I apologise.

7 Q. Before --

8 A. But no, not -- I hadn't seen him before, no.

9 Q. No. You say he visited the camp, and you said before going to the

10 stables. So did he go to the stables as well?

11 A. Yes, he did. Yes.

12 Q. And how did you know that was Vojo Kupresanin?

13 A. Well, in Manjaca I knew who would be visiting the camp. In 99 per

14 cent of the cases, apart from cases which were military secrets, I knew

15 who would be visiting the camp. There would be a visit. I was told that

16 such and such a person would be visiting, et cetera.

17 Q. Did you hear what Vojo Kupresanin -- oh, I'm sorry. Did Vojo

18 Kupresanin speak to the people in the stables?

19 A. In the same way he -- the speeches were of a similar kind. He

20 said that those who were not guilty would be released, they would go to

21 third countries, that those who were guilty would be sent to military

22 courts. That's a summary. But I only heard a couple of sentences, et

23 cetera, so I couldn't expand on this. That was what the speeches were

24 about in brief.

25 Q. What about Stojan Zupljanin? Did he visit the camp?

1 A. 3 N. It was called 3N, Manjaca 3N. When politicians from the

2 Crisis Staff of the Banja Luka region came.

3 Q. I'm sorry. What was called 3N?

4 A. It was called 3N, Kupresanin, Zupljanin, and Brdjanin. All the

5 names finished with the letter N. So that's what they would say, the

6 three N politicians were coming, the three main politicians from the

7 Crisis Staff of Bosanska Krajina or the Serbian republic.

8 Q. And who -- I'm sorry. To be quite clear, who said that to you?

9 The police officer who told you about --

10 A. The inmates would speak about this and even the police. I'd hear

11 it from the inmates, from the police. That's what they would say.

12 Q. When Zupljanin came -- again, had you ever seen him before or

13 television or in real life?

14 A. No, I hadn't. No.

15 Q. And what did he do when he was in fact camp?

16 A. As I said, he also made speeches. All three politicians would

17 make speeches in the stables. General Talic didn't make a speech.

18 Q. And can you recall any other politicians from the Krajina area,

19 from Banja Luka who visited?

20 A. I can't remember. These were the politicians who came, and it

21 depended on us what -- what would happen. And it depended on -- what

22 would happen depended on them. So I can't really say.

23 Q. All right. Finally, doctor, I think it's right that you were

24 eventually released from the camp in November of 1992. Is that right?

25 A. That's correct. And I was called to the -- summoned to the

1 command where there were several officers, and they told me literally,

2 "You have proved the contrary of what was said about you and you have

3 proved the contrary of what you were charged with." They greeted me and

4 they said that I would be released the following day. Buses arrived, and

5 I was released. I went to Karlovac through Gradiska. A large number

6 left. On that day I was told, as we were leaving, they said, "Take

7 care." Two policemen escorted me on the bus, and one policeman escorted

8 one bus. Two policemen escorted me because they didn't want me to be

9 kidnapped in Banja Luka, because there were telephone calls -- this is

10 what the investigator told me. He told me to be careful, that I would be

11 kidnapped from Sanski Most and that a request had been made for the

12 Serbian people to put me on trial, but I proved that I had never been such

13 a person. I thanked them. I hadn't been traumatised. There were

14 beatings. There were all sorts of things. But I left and I managed to

15 survive. I went to Germany. After the liberation of Sanski Most, I

16 returned. I lived there and worked there. Serbs were returning and

17 others were returning there too. So there's nothing more I could say

18 about that.

19 Q. All right. And finally this: Were you joined in Germany by your

20 wife and children? Just answer yes or no.

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And after you'd been arrested and whilst your wife was still in

23 Sanski Most with your children, did anything happen to your house? You've

24 told us how the police searched your house and took your ID. But did

25 anything happen to your house?

1 A. Yes. They destroyed the roof with zoljas. They fired through the

2 wall. My son was upstairs, and a zolja went through the -- through the

3 wall, under the bed. Luckily he didn't die. The house was completely

4 affected, damaged. They fired in front of the house. It was set on

5 fire. But a Serb, a boy, from the neighbourhood and a Muslim, they went

6 in and put the fire out. And I've been repairing that now. I've been

7 repairing the house. That's what happened. My wife had serious problems

8 while she was in Sanski Most and she then left via Zagreb and so on.

9 Q. Yes. Thank you, doctor.

10 A. Thank you.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Ms. Korner.

12 Who's going to go first?

13 Yes. Dr. Sabanovic, you are now going to be cross-examined by the

14 Defence team, by lead counsel, I suppose, for Radoslav Brdjanin,

15 Mr. Ackerman.

16 Mr. Ackerman, wherever you like. If you want to change place, you

17 may.

18 MR. ACKERMAN: The problem is, Your Honour, they have rearranged

19 this courtroom to accommodate Mr. Milosevic and it doesn't work for the

20 rest of us any more. So I'm going to try to move this thing here and see

21 what happens.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, certainly. You're free to do so.

23 MR. ACKERMAN: Maybe it will work; maybe it won't. I think it

24 will.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: If there are any jugs full of water, please keep

1 them away.

2 MR. ACKERMAN: That works pretty good.

3 All right. I'm ready, Your Honour. With your indulgence.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, please proceed, Mr. Ackerman.

5 MR. ACKERMAN: Thank you.

6 Cross-examined by Mr. Ackerman:

7 Q. Good afternoon, sir.

8 A. Good afternoon.

9 Q. My name is John Ackerman. I'm counsel for Mr. Brdjanin. And I've

10 got a few questions I want to ask you.

11 I think the Judge would agree with me that probably the easiest

12 way for you and I to get through this is for you to listen very carefully

13 to the questions I ask you. And if it's possible for you to answer them

14 with a "yes" or "no," you could do that. Is that okay with you?

15 A. I agree with that.

16 Q. I'm going to talk about some of the things that you've just

17 finished talking about this afternoon.

18 MR. ACKERMAN: And Your Honour, I'm going to need someone's help

19 or indulgence or something, because based upon some testimony that I heard

20 this afternoon, I need a document that I don't have, and it is that pen

21 and ink drawing of Manjaca. And I don't know -- I don't know what its

22 exhibit number is or anything.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: I think it's included in one of these -- included in

24 one of the statements that the witness made in -- to the authorities in

25 Germany. However, the copy that I have is for reasons I don't understand

1 divided into two pages. That's -- but I'm sure, Ms. Korner, that Ms.

2 Gustin can help us identify -- this is the drawing, the sketch of the

3 Manjaca camp. I don't --

4 MS. KORNER: [Microphone not activated] I was hoping the registry

5 might be able to provide.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you know the number?

7 MS. KORNER: [Microphone not activated] It is an exhibit, but I

8 don't know what exhibit number, it is.

9 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Ms. Korner, please.

10 MS. KORNER: I'm sorry. P467.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: P467.

12 MS. KORNER: Yes.

13 MR. ACKERMAN:

14 Q. While we are finding that document, sir, you saw a videotape a

15 while ago of some prisoners in Manjaca. And one of those prisoners we

16 stopped and looked at for a moment, and he was described by you as being

17 nothing but skin and bones. That was one of the prisoners that came from

18 Omarska; correct?

19 JUDGE AGIUS: That's the one.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's correct.

21 MR. ACKERMAN:

22 Q. And was that person ever examined by you? Did you ever examine

23 him to find out if he had any particular medical problems?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And can you tell us the result of your examination of him.

1 A. Well, the result of the examination was the diagnosis of what we

2 call cohexia [phoen]. He had been undernourished. The conditions he

3 lived in were terrible. The living conditions were terrible. It was a

4 result of force used against him, et cetera.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment.

6 Pardon me, Mr. Ackerman.

7 Ms. Korner, the document that you referred us to is signed by one

8 of the previous witnesses, and it has some numbers. It's --

9 MR. ACKERMAN: That's not problem.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: It's nothing problematic according me. But do you

11 have any --

12 MR. ACKERMAN: That's no problem.

13 MS. KORNER: Ms. Gustin pointed out that it had been

14 marked by Medic. But I think Mr. Ackerman just wants to orientate

15 himself. That's all, so I don't think it matters at all.

16 MR. ACKERMAN: She's right. We've discussed this.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Oh, I didn't know.

18 MS. KORNER: It doesn't matter.

19 MR. ACKERMAN: She probably knows more about what I am doing than

20 I do. It's all right.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: So you want the document placed on the ELMO?

22 MR. ACKERMAN: No. I want it brought to me. So I can look at it.

23 And then when I get around to it, I'm going to use it.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.

25 MR. ACKERMAN: Thank you.

1 All right. I'd like the three photographs, 808, 809, and 810 to

2 be made available to the witness. 808 is not important. 809 and 810 are

3 the ones I really want to look at.

4 Let's look at 809 first, please. Can you put that on the ELMO

5 first.

6 Q. Now, sir, if you look at 809 -- you can't see it on the ELMO,

7 because you can't see it all. But over on the far right of that picture

8 you will see an iron gate. Do you see that?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And in fact, there is an entrance to the Manjaca camp where that

11 gate is.

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And to the right, there's an -- there's the administration

14 building. And I think the barracks that some of the camp personnel stayed

15 in; is that correct?

16 A. Yes, yes.

17 Q. And --

18 A. Up in the left-hand corner.

19 Q. Yeah. And just as a kind of orientation, if we looked a little

20 bit further to the left on this picture, we'd see the guard tower,

21 wouldn't we?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And basically we're looking in generally a south direction as we

24 look at this photograph. Toward the south.

25 A. Yes.

1 THE INTERPRETER: Could the other witness's microphone be switched

2 on, please.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay.

4 MR. ACKERMAN:

5 Q. And the other thing I'd like you to notice, just looking at this

6 photograph, you see the two persons behind the water tank, the ones that

7 seem to be moving the two together between the water tank and the flag

8 pole?

9 A. To the left, next to the water tanker?

10 Q. Well, they're just -- the two people that are in the open behind

11 the water tank are the two people I'm trying to refer you to. Do you see

12 them?

13 A. Yes, I do.

14 Q. The thing I want you to notice is that it's -- it's apparently

15 close to midday because there are hardly any shadows in this photograph.

16 The shadows are -- well, there are some, but not elongated. Correct?

17 A. Yes, looks like it.

18 Q. Okay. Now what I'd like to do is look at 810. And I want the

19 usher to also hand you P467. And this gate that we see in 810, can you

20 tell us where that gate is on the drawing P467?

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Ackerman, the Chamber needs to follow this, and

22 the document P467 ought to be put on the ELMO.

23 MR. ACKERMAN: Yes.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: If we are to do that.

25 MR. ACKERMAN: Yes. As soon as he finds where it is, we'll put it

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1 on.

2 Q. Now, can you show us then now, sir, on the ELMO where the gate

3 we see in the photograph is, located?

4 A. Here it is up there. But it doesn't really mean anything to me.

5 I'm no architect.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Dr. Sabanovic, you have to show us on the document

7 itself on the paper that you have in front of you.

8 So for the record, Mr. Ackerman, the Chamber notes that the

9 witness has indicated the spot behind -- immediately behind shed numbered

10 3.

11 THE WITNESS: [Indicates]

12 JUDGE AGIUS: And in front of the shed that is immediately behind

13 it.

14 MR. ACKERMAN: Yes.

15 Q. And that, sir, is the -- the other part of Manjaca, the sort of

16 camp number 2 or whatever you might call it; correct?

17 A. That side, over there.

18 Q. Yes. And now look at 810 again, will you please. Now, what were

19 you doing over on that side?

20 A. This is the camp. I'm coming out waiting for this one to let me

21 through to get to the infirmary, to let me through. This is the main

22 entrance into the camp. I am inside, and he is on the same side. He will

23 open it, and I will go down to the command where the infirmary is.

24 Q. So were you -- were you housed over on that side of the camp?

25 A. Yes. It's this side of the camp. It's the third stable. That's

1 what it was called. The first one is at the entrance next to the gate.

2 And the last one is that one down there. One, two, three.

3 Q. So did you move over there after you first went to Manjaca?

4 A. I moved where? I didn't understand.

5 Q. To the -- that other part of the camp, the second half of the

6 camp, the part that you're standing in in this photograph. It's my

7 understanding -- let me just -- I'm confusing both you and myself.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah. I think you can rephrase the whole series of

9 questions.

10 MR. ACKERMAN: Yes.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: By asking him first when he arrived in Manjaca where

12 he was put.

13 MR. ACKERMAN: Please put the drawing back on the ELMO, please.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: And whether he remained there --

15 MR. ACKERMAN:

16 Q. Show me which of these barns was the one that you were housed in.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: When he first arrived.

18 MR. ACKERMAN:

19 Q. When you first arrived at Manjaca.

20 A. The third one.

21 Q. So you're pointing at the back row of barns and what would be the

22 barn behind what is marked number 1 on this exhibit, P467; correct?

23 A. Yes, the third stable in a row. Come, I was there for several

24 months, the first to come, the first to leave. Skip those formalities.

25 Q. And show me where the command is, where the offices are. Point to

1 those on this diagram.

2 A. I'm not an architect. Sorry. Where were they? The offices,

3 where they were. That is where they were. And I went past them a million

4 times. I cannot show you whether these are offices or what. I can't

5 really get my bearings in sketches and drawings and such like. The

6 offices are as you come out through the main gate, you turn right, just a

7 little bit to the right, and a bit down, and then you go there. That is

8 where the offices were. To the gentlemen where in the Manjaca camp, it's

9 no secret.

10 Q. You see the guard tower in this drawing, don't you?

11 A. I don't. I -- I see nothing on this drawing. Oh, sure. Yes, of

12 course I see it. How could I not see it. Here it is.

13 Q. You know where the guard tower was in relationship to the offices

14 and the barracks, don't you?

15 A. Above -- above the entrance to the camp where you come out of the

16 camp to the right. Here it is. That is where it is. That is the

17 observation tower where the policemen usually are. And below it -- now,

18 down here are offices, or as you call it, the command, or offices.

19 Formalities.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: We are getting there, Mr. Ackerman.

21 MR. ACKERMAN:

22 Q. Now, look at 809 again, please, the photograph.

23 Now, we've looked at this before. You've described that iron gate

24 as the main gate and that building there as the command. And if you are

25 standing at that gate facing up that road toward the south, that's where

1 the guard tower is; correct?

2 A. I guess so.

3 Q. Well, sir, you were there for months. You probably know more

4 about that than me. Is that where it was or not? Do you have an answer?

5 A. No. What answer? These are formalities. I know where every hole

6 is, and now you ask me about some drawings or something.

7 Q. I'm not asking you --

8 A. This is simply unnecessary and --

9 MR. ACKERMAN: [Previous translation continues] ... I'm going to

10 ask you about a lot of drawings and you're going to answer my questions

11 and you're not going to tell me I'm asking you formalities. I have a

12 right to ask questions and you have to answer them.

13 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the President, please.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: [Microphone not activated] Let me handle this.

15 Dr. Sabanovic, look at me. I know that coming here and giving

16 evidence for you is no fun. I have no doubt about that. But it's no fun

17 either for the Defence counsel to defend his client. The Defence counsel

18 has a duty to defend his client, and he has a duty to cross-examine you,

19 and I have a duty to allow him to cross-examine you by putting questions

20 that he has a right to put. But if he has a right to put those questions

21 to you, you have a duty to answer them. I will not allow you to enter

22 into a collision path with the Defence counsel who is going to -- who is

23 doing his duty here. I will be the one to stop him when he puts a

24 question to you which I think and the other Judges agree with me that

25 shouldn't be put or that you shouldn't answer. But until I stop

1 Mr. Ackerman, please do answer his questions. It's not a formality. He

2 may have his reasons. We will soon know what his reasons are. But in the

3 meantime, please do not make our life more difficult than it already is

4 and do try to answer his questions. Thank you.

5 Mr. Ackerman, please proceed.

6 MR. ACKERMAN: Thank you, Your Honour.

7 Q. Sir, I want you to look again now at photograph P810, the one that

8 you are in. Do you recall what was happening when that photograph was

9 taken? Do you recall that day?

10 A. No.

11 Q. You told us when Ms. Korner was asking you questions that it was

12 toward the end of your confinement there, because you looked pretty good

13 in that photograph. Is that what you said?

14 A. Yes. And the clothes.

15 Q. And you left there in November?

16 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness repeat the answer, please.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Dr. Sabanovic, the question was: Did you leave

18 there in November? What did you answer?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: I'm asking you because the interpreters didn't hear

21 you. They didn't hear your answer.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. I said yes.

23 MR. ACKERMAN:

24 Q. And sir, won't you agree with me from the looks of the grass and

25 the trees that this picture was taken in the summertime?

1 A. Yes. That's right. It must have been July or August.

2 Q. Yes. And July would have been shortly after the first visit of

3 the ICRC; right?

4 A. Yes. Yes.

5 Q. Now, if this gate is where you showed us on the diagram that it

6 is, you are facing south as you stand there, are you not?

7 A. That's right. Yes.

8 Q. And because the sun is shining on your left side, I guess we can

9 conclude -- and the shadow is very long -- that it's very early morning in

10 the summertime.

11 A. Well, yes, around 10.00.

12 Q. Now, you've also told us that you were -- you were in the same --

13 well, let me ask you. Let me make sure that we're correct about this.

14 You were in the same building, the same stable, as Dr. Derviskadic?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And that was that one behind number 1 that you showed us in the

17 diagram; correct?

18 MR. ACKERMAN: Let's put the diagram of the stables back up there

19 again.

20 A. The last one from the entrance here.

21 Q. Yes.

22 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I'd really like to mark it, but I

23 don't have permission -- unless I get permission from the Prosecutor, I

24 can't. Because it's her exhibit.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't think we --

1 MS. KORNER: No. I'm sorry. If it's necessary, we can get a

2 clean version from somewhere.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: I think so.

4 MS. KORNER: I mean, if it really is necessary. It means we'll

5 have to go and get one.

6 MR. ACKERMAN: We can do it at the next break, I hope, because I

7 really -- I really would like to do it.

8 MS. KORNER: All right.

9 MR. ACKERMAN: And if I can find one, I'll use my own. But I

10 don't think I've got one.

11 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, we can provide one after the next break.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Ms. Korner.

13 In the meantime, looking at the ELMO and looking at the document

14 again, perhaps Dr. Sabanovic can once more indicate to us the shed where

15 he was lodged when he arrived in Manjaca.

16 THE WITNESS: [Indicates]

17 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, he's now pointing in a different one, Your

18 Honour.

19 MS. KORNER: Well, that's why I'm wondering if this exercise is

20 going to get anybody --

21 JUDGE AGIUS: But I don't want to stop from Mr. Ackerman at this

22 point in time because I don't know where he's getting --

23 MS. KORNER: [Microphone not activated]

24 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Ms. Korner, please.

25 MS. KORNER: If it's really necessary. Because it seems to me

1 it's going to end up in the most appalling condition.

2 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, it's actually getting a lot more interesting,

3 Your Honour.

4 Q. Now, you showed us now that you were in a barn that has a number

5 "1" written on it in red; correct?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And show us again the gate that you say is the one shown in the

8 photograph.

9 A. [Indicates]

10 Q. Now it's the one in the front by the guard tower; correct? That's

11 the one you say it is?

12 A. Yes. Yes, that's right.

13 MR. ACKERMAN: If the witness could now be handed P807.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, Mr. Ackerman. For the record, the

15 Chamber notes that upon being asked to indicate the barn where he was

16 lodged, the witness indicated the barn which in the original document P467

17 is already marked by a previous witness with a number "1" written in red.

18 Upon being asked to indicate the gate to which a previous question

19 was addressed, the witness now indicates the gate that is immediately

20 visible in front of the barn on the same document which is marked with the

21 number "3" written in red.

22 Yes. Thank you. Yes, Mr. Ackerman.

23 MR. ACKERMAN: Please put P807 now on the ELMO. And focus in and

24 enlarge as much as possible photograph number 2.

25 Now, stop right there.

1 Q. Sir, it says that that photograph number 2 there is a view from

2 the stables from the tower. So if the fence were still there, I guess we

3 would see right there on that road the gate that you have just referred

4 to, and those would be the stables in which you say one of which you were

5 confined.

6 A. Yes. But I don't really understand all this.

7 Q. Well, if you compare that photograph number 2 with P810. P810 has

8 a building that shouldn't be there and is missing a bunch of trees that

9 should be there, isn't it? So that can't be the same view, can it?

10 A. That's the main gate. This wasn't there.

11 MR. ACKERMAN: I think it's about as clear as it's going to get.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: I think, Mr. Ackerman, if my recollection of

13 previous witnesses is correct, it seems to me that the probability is that

14 there was first gate that came before where the command or the first group

15 of buildings was, and then there is another gate which is specific to the

16 barns. That's my recollection. But I may be -- I may be wrong. But

17 perhaps if that is taken into consideration by you and also by the

18 witness, maybe I'm not far off the mark. If I remember well, before you

19 even reach the command post and where the command buildings were, there

20 was a gate there, and that's the first stop. Then once you are in,

21 separating the area where the command was and the area where the barns

22 were, there was another gate.

23 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, Your Honour, it's really very simple. If you

24 look at photographs 2 and 3.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah. But those -- those are recent photographs,

1 Mr. Ackerman.

2 MR. ACKERMAN: I understand they're recent. But the buildings are

3 the same.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah, the buildings --

5 MR. ACKERMAN: And the trees are the same. And if you look at 2

6 and 3, you will see that copse of trees on the left-hand side. You can't

7 miss it.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Mm-hm.

9 MR. ACKERMAN: And it goes past those three stables.

10 If you look at P810, where those trees are there is a building.

11 And it's clearly one of the old buildings. And what he said initially,

12 that this is the back part of Manjaca was correct, that's what it is.

13 It's that second gate that he initially pointed out. It can't be anything

14 else.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: I will not argue with you on that. I don't know.

16 But --

17 MR. ACKERMAN: And I think we can clear it up later on. But we're

18 not going to be able to do it with this witness. That's pretty clear with

19 me.

20 MS. KORNER: No. But if there's a point Mr. Ackerman --

21 Mr. Inayat is very familiar with the layout and he can do the whole

22 thing --

23 JUDGE AGIUS: To me -- I think that would be useful. But on the

24 other hand, hearing what -- hearing what you have just stated. If the

25 sketch, the diagram that we've seen, is correct, then one would expect the

1 buildings on the left-hand side of this photograph to be parallel with the

2 buildings on the right-hand side. And that building on the left side is

3 definitely not parallel.

4 MS. KORNER: I think somebody --

5 JUDGE AGIUS: It's not -- I don't know. But --

6 MS. KORNER: Somebody said, Your Honour, it's not a very good

7 sketch.

8 MR. ACKERMAN: Yeah. I've taken a position from the beginning

9 that that sketch is not correct.

10 MS. KORNER: I think that's right. I don't think it's an

11 accurate sketch.

12 MR. ACKERMAN: It's got the wrong entrance and it's missing the

13 command building.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Anyway, you're free to bring whatever evidence you

15 require, Mr. Ackerman, and Ms. Korner to clear this up if it is important,

16 which I suppose it is. But don't put too much pressure on the witness,

17 who I understand is not exactly the ideal person to enlighten us on -- on

18 sketches, diagram, maps, and all that.

19 MR. ACKERMAN: I'm finished with it, Your Honour.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you.

21 MR. ACKERMAN: I'm going elsewhere.

22 What time do you break? 5.15 or 5.30.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: 5.15. Unless you require a break earlier.

24 MR. ACKERMAN:

25 Q. Sir, you told us that you were describing a little while ago the

1 latrines that were dug between the two buildings and the oak timbers that

2 were put on those latrine. And you said that when the Red Cross came to

3 visit, representatives from the Red Cross fainted.

4 Now, did you treat them after they had fainted in any way? Did

5 you give them medical attention after they had fainted? The Red Cross

6 representatives who fainted, did you give them medical treatment?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Okay.

9 A. Collapse is something when a man needs to lie down for five

10 minutes just to be horizontal, and after that he can sit up. This is not

11 a physical injury or something. It is a mental state where one cannot

12 bear the sight of something and one simply falls down, spends five minutes

13 on the ground, and five minutes later he can sit and stand up. I mean,

14 they are healthy people.

15 Q. Yeah. How many of them fainted? How many of the Red Cross

16 representatives fainted there?

17 A. Well, I can't tell you. Two, three, or one. It doesn't matter.

18 At any rate, I mean, when they saw it, I mean, it's always two or three of

19 them who come, not more than that. And they were mostly women.

20 Q. Well, it matters to me because you said they fainted, and you

21 apparently saw that happen. How many of them fainted?

22 A. I did.

23 Q. So tell us how many.

24 A. Three.

25 Q. Three fainted. All three of them?

1 A. There were three women. We were several. We didn't all faint.

2 Unconsciousness, collapse. Every literate man knows what a collapse is.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Next question, Mr. Ackerman.

4 MR. ACKERMAN: All right.

5 Q. Sir, I'm going back now to the beginning of your testimony

6 yesterday.

7 After the war started in Croatia, you told us yesterday that you

8 started issuing false medical certificates to young men to assist them in

9 avoiding mobilisation and going off to fight in Croatia; correct?

10 A. No. Issue the certificate. I did issue medical certificates.

11 And my colleague, who's called Knezevic, doctor, general medicine, a Serb,

12 he went to Jasenovac and he died in the Jasenovac camp. He was brought to

13 Sanski Most. You can look for it and you'll find it. Not false. I

14 issued medical certificates to people so they wouldn't have to go to war.

15 I'm an opponent of war. That is not my -- that is not in my -- that is my

16 country, and it cannot be my objective to see people get killed for no

17 purpose.

18 Q. Well, in those medical certificates, you described medical

19 conditions that these people did not have, didn't you?

20 A. No.

21 Q. You described them as being unfit for military service, didn't

22 you?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. That was not a true, was it?

25 A. Not for you.

1 Q. But they were fit for military service, weren't they?

2 A. No.

3 Q. Physically fit. They were physically fit, weren't they?

4 A. Not all.

5 Q. You issued certificates to as many as 2.000 people. You helped

6 them not go to war because you thought they shouldn't go to war. Right?

7 A. There was no need for them to go. They are not fit. They should

8 not go. They should not lose their lives, just as Dr. Knezevic, who died

9 without the need to fight in Croatia and Serbia, and he lived nicely in

10 his own country and then he lost his life because of that.

11 Q. At page 12 of the LiveNote transcript, the Prosecutor asked you

12 this question: "In other words, are you saying some of the people to whom

13 you issued medical certificates in fact were fit to go?" Answer: "Yes.

14 There were those who were able-bodied. And let me also tell you, there

15 were equally Serbs, Croats, and Muslims amongst them. There were even

16 Serbs." And then you talked about your belief against --

17 A. Yes, yes.

18 Q. And that's true, isn't it?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. There are documents which you wrote and signed saying that these

21 people were not fit, were not true. They are lies.

22 A. They are not lies. Don't use such jargon when speaking to me. I

23 won't allow it.

24 Q. When someone is not fit and you certify that they are fit, that is

25 not the truth; correct?

1 A. The truth is one thing and a lie is another thing.

2 Q. Answer my question. They were not the truth, were they?

3 A. That's the truth.

4 Q. You believed and do believe now that you were serving a greater

5 good by helping them avoid becoming involved in what you believed was an

6 unjust war; isn't that true?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. You felt justified in being untruthful regarding the issuance of

9 these certificates because of your feelings about the war.

10 A. Not completely. Not completely.

11 Q. You felt justified, because you continued to do it even after you

12 were warned, didn't you?

13 A. The medical doctrine -- yes.

14 Q. I want to talk about your arrest now. You gave several -- I

15 shouldn't say several. You've given a couple of statements, one fairly

16 long, over several days to authorities in Germany. And that was basically

17 in May of 1999. And then you gave another statement to the

18 representatives of the Office of the Prosecutor in 1/2 December 2000 and

19 14/17/19 February 2001. I'm going to be asking you questions from both of

20 those statements. And in fairness to you, I would like you to have them

21 in front of you, so I'll ask the Prosecutor to give them to you.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Ms. Korner, I don't know if you are aware of this,

23 but we have of course the statement that the witness gave or released in

24 May of 1999 to the German authorities, and none of us seems to have the

25 other two statements that Mr. Ackerman has just referred to.

1 MS. KORNER: [Microphone not activated] No. He's not -- I'm

2 sorry. I keep forgetting to turn my microphone on this court.

3 Your Honour, the statement, the ICTY statement is actually taken

4 over a period of December and February. There's only two. German and the

5 ICTY.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah. But that -- the ICTY one we don't have.

7 MS. KORNER: Yes, you do.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: No.

9 MS. KORNER: I'm sorry. You do have it. That's what I've been

10 referring to.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: We don't have that. We have the German one. None

12 of us have it.

13 MS. KORNER: Well, I do not understand how that happened,

14 because --

15 JUDGE AGIUS: It can be solved. I mean, it's -- I'm just pointing

16 this out, because obviously if there are questions forthcoming from

17 Mr. Ackerman based on those two -- on that statement --

18 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I'm very sorry, but I -- and I have

19 every faith in Ms. Gustin infallibility on this one. The statements were

20 handed to the Court on the 31st of May, ICTY. And I don't know how they

21 didn't get to Your Honour, but I think Your Honour will have to make

22 inquiries. But we can get some more copies.

23 Then Your Honour must have been quite surprised by the number of

24 questions I've been asking which have no basis whatsoever either in the

25 proofing document or in the German statements.

1 If Your Honours don't get the statement in advance, perhaps Your

2 Honours would be kind enough to let us know.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. No. But we didn't know about the existence

4 of the statement.

5 MS. KORNER: I can tell Your Honour that all the witnesses we're

6 calling without exception have some kind of a statement.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: We did have -- we did have a note which -- in

8 English which said Witness 7.100 during proofing on the 1st of June, plus

9 bulleted points.

10 MS. KORNER: Yes.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: But that was not accompanied --

12 MS. KORNER: It wasn't, because the statement was handed out in

13 advance.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: But this is what we got on, I think --

15 MS. KORNER: You got that yesterday.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: We got this yesterday.

17 MS. KORNER: The actual statement of the witness though was handed

18 out on the -- whatever date it was, the 31st.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: I just don't have it.

20 MS. KORNER: Anyway, I think Your Honour the only way that we can

21 deal with this. If Your Honour feel that is you're -- I can always check

22 that you've got the statements with us. But I think this really you'll

23 have to bring it up with Your Honours' staff.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you.

25 Yes, please, Mr. Ackerman.

1 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, I'm at your pleasure, Your Honour. If you

2 want to take a few moments now --

3 JUDGE AGIUS: No. Go ahead.

4 MR. ACKERMAN: All right. I'll go ahead.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: We'll be able to follow you.

6 MR. ACKERMAN: All right.

7 Q. Sir, I want to talk to you about your arrest in Sanski Most. If

8 you look at the first page of the statement that you made to the German

9 authorities. I think it's page 2. And I'll look at the B/C/S. Yes, it's

10 page 2, halfway down, begins [B/C/S spoken] 26. Do you see that?

11 A. It's not important. Just ask me the question.

12 Q. It says: "I was seized by uniformed Chetniks in the health centre

13 at about 2100 hours on 26 May 1992." And in terms of your statement to

14 the German authorities, that's what you told them about your arrest,

15 didn't you?

16 A. I explained that yesterday and very well. This is a translation

17 mistake. But when I got to the hospital where I was called, I said that I

18 had been arrested, the police and the hospital took me home, escorted me

19 home, and then I was taken to the Crisis Staff. I don't know. This is

20 simply not comprehensible.

21 Q. Sir. I know what you said yesterday. I'm asking you if it's

22 correct that this is what you told the German police. If it's not what

23 you'll told the German police, just say so.

24 A. I said that -- what I said yesterday, and what I said to the

25 German authorities I couldn't have said that. The translation wasn't

1 correct. That's probably the reason. The person who translated this

2 probably didn't do so correctly.

3 Q. The statement that you gave to the Office of the Prosecutor on the

4 dates that we've talked about, on page 4, I believe it is, you told the

5 representatives of the Prosecutor that you were arrested on 26 May 1992 at

6 1800, three hours earlier than what you -- apparently the German statement

7 indicates -- while you were at home. That's what you told the Prosecutor;

8 correct?

9 A. No. No.

10 Q. No?

11 A. On the 26th of May. On the 26th of May, both the Germans and in

12 this place. On the 26th of May.

13 Q. No. But the statement you made to the Prosecutor, page 4: "I was

14 arrested on the 26th May 1992 at 1800 while I was home." Is that what you

15 said?

16 A. No.

17 Q. So they got it wrong too?

18 A. Were you listening yesterday?

19 Q. No. I'm asking you questions today. And you'll answer them. The

20 Judge will instruct you to answer it.

21 A. And I'm answering them.

22 Q. According to your statement to the Prosecutor, what you told the

23 Prosecutor's investigators was that you were arrested 26 May 1992 at 1800

24 while you were home. Now, did -- was that -- did you say that or not?

25 A. Between 2000 hours and 2100 hours. That's what I told the

1 Prosecution. That's what it was said.

2 Q. So they got it wrong.

3 A. From the -- from the health centre home and then to the Crisis

4 Staff.

5 Q. So the German authorities failed to write down what you said

6 properly; the Prosecutor failed to write down what you said properly.

7 Let's see if you agree that the court reporter here in court got it right

8 yesterday.

9 Page 19 of your testimony, the court reporter here in court says

10 that you got a call. You were at home. You got a call from Bosko Grubisa

11 at around 8.00 p.m.

12 A. Yes. Yes.

13 Q. There was a very severe patient and that I should go there because

14 he needed to consult me. Is that true?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. That's the true one; right?

17 A. Yes, yes.

18 Q. And when you said 8.00, I assume you meant 8.00 in the evening of

19 the 26th.

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Right?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And you went and saw this patient; yes?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And then at some later time the police basically followed you

1 home. What time did you go back home?

2 A. About 8.15, 8.30, something like that.

3 Q. And it was very shortly after that then you were arrested?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And was it uniformed Chetniks that arrested you?

6 A. They were all Chetniks. It was the police wearing camouflage

7 uniforms.

8 Q. How could you --

9 A. They were all Chetniks.

10 Q. How could you tell they were Chetniks? How did you know they were

11 Chetniks? Did they say they were Chetniks?

12 A. They boasted that they were Chetniks. They didn't just say that.

13 They boasted about it.

14 Q. Okay. Let me have you look now at Exhibit DB85, please.

15 MS. KORNER: Can I ask what -- can I ask what that is.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: [Microphone not activated]

17 MS. KORNER: Oh, thank you.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: [Microphone not activated] Mr. Ackerman, is this a

19 short question?

20 MR. ACKERMAN: No. This is going to go on for a long time.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: So I would suggest that we break now, because it's

22 time for the break, and we resume immediately afterwards. We'll break for

23 15 minutes.

24 --- Recess taken at 5.15 p.m.

25 --- On resuming at 5.33 p.m.

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Ackerman, you may proceed.

2 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, Ms. Gustin has a drawing for me, if I

3 can get it. And what I want to do is put it on the ELMO and give the

4 witness a marker.

5 My system seems to have died, Your Honour.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: For a moment it did. But now it's come back.

7 MR. ACKERMAN: Oh, there we go. It's back.

8 Q. Sir, you now have a nice clean inaccurate drawing of Manjaca in

9 front of you. And what I'd like you to do is on the particular barn that

10 was the one that you were in, just put a "1."

11 A. [Marks]

12 Q. And on the gate that you say is the gate that's shown in Exhibit

13 P810 -- and if you want to see it again, we'll show it to you so you can

14 be certain -- but on the gate you say is that gate, just put a big "X"

15 there.

16 A. [Marks]

17 Q. And next to it write "810." And next to both of those marks, put

18 your initials.

19 A. [Marks]

20 MR. ACKERMAN: And that would become DB86, Your Honour. And I'd

21 offer it.

22 And could the witness be given back P810 for just a moment,

23 please.

24 Q. Now, sir in this -- you told us earlier that what was going on in

25 this photograph is you were waiting there for the guard to open the gate

1 so that you could go to the infirmary where you worked; correct?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And so it's your testimony that the only way you could get from

4 the barracks where you stayed - at least part of the time - to the

5 infirmary where you worked was to go through this gate.

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And the guard doesn't seem to have a weapon. Did the guards not

8 have weapons?

9 A. During the day, there was this bench here where he would sit. And

10 two or three of them would be there. The main guard was at the

11 observation post. But during the day, there were no problems here.

12 Q. So the answer to my question is he didn't have a weapon.

13 A. No.

14 Q. How would he open the gate?

15 A. I don't know.

16 Q. Well, if you look at the photograph, it looks like there's a big

17 brass padlock on the opposite side of the gate from where the guard is.

18 Doesn't it?

19 A. Yes. I can see it. But the gate would be opened either from the

20 inside or the outside. But I didn't pay attention to that. It wasn't

21 important to me.

22 Q. How many times did you go through that gate going back and forth

23 to the infirmary?

24 A. 5.000 times.

25 Q. I want you to now look at Exhibit DB85. Actually, you can't look

1 at it but we'll put it on the ELMO. I need to -- since there's no B/C/S

2 version of it, I'm just going to have the read parts of it to you and ask

3 you to tell me if what is there is correct.

4 First of all, I should tell you that this purports to be a news

5 story, an article, written by a gentleman named Zoltan Nemeth. It's part

6 9 of a ten part series. It's dated 24 August 1992. It's apparently from

7 a publication, although I'm not certain about this, called Novi Sad

8 Madjari [phoen] FCO. But I don't know if that's the name of the

9 publication. Apparently comes from Novi Sad and apparently is a Hungarian

10 publication of some form.

11 This person Zoltan Nemeth speaks about making a visit to Manjaca

12 I suppose in late July, early August or sometime in August perhaps of

13 1992. Tell me if what he reports here is correct. He reports going into

14 a stable. He says six rows of prisoners sit on the ground. Is that

15 correct?

16 A. Probably.

17 Q. "There is a blanket under each of them. None of them wears

18 shoes." Is that correct?

19 A. No, no.

20 Q. What part of that is not correct?

21 A. It's not correct to say that there was a blanket under all of

22 them. And some people were wearing their shoes and others weren't. When

23 they were lying down, everyone would take their shoes off. That was

24 normal.

25 Q. "They are not supposed to stand up except if so ordered." Is that

1 true?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. "They are not permitted to walk around"; is that true?

4 A. No.

5 Q. "Every 20 minutes they allow 20 prisoners to go to the toilet and

6 breathe fresh air"; is that true?

7 A. In the course of the day, yes.

8 Q. He says: "The people are skinny. Their faces and eyes are

9 emaciated." Is that true?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. "They sit quietly because they are not permitted to converse." Is

12 that true?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. "All of them have hair heads lowered. Only a very few raise their

15 heads to look at us." Is that true?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. He then conducts an interview with a gentleman named

18 Sead Ahmedagic. Did you know that person?

19 A. No. I don't know the name and the last name.

20 Q. He asks Sead, "How are they treating you here?" And he says that

21 Sead responded: "Well, badly." Is that true?

22 JUDGE AGIUS: What's true, Mr. Ackerman.

23 MR. ACKERMAN: I'm sorry. I better ask that differently.

24 Q. Is it true what Sead reportedly said that, he was treated badly

25 there as far as you know?

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Still --

2 MS. KORNER: I mean, I'm afraid -- I know he was later on

3 mentioned. How is he to know what this man said to the reporter.

4 MR. ACKERMAN: That's true. And I'm not really asking him if he

5 knows what the man said to the reporter.

6 Q. If the man said to the reporter that he was treated badly there,

7 was he telling the reporter the truth?

8 A. If he said so, yes, he was telling the truth. But I'm not in a

9 position to say -- say that.

10 Q. Yes. If the man told the reporter in response to a question that

11 the guards were beating the prisoners on occasion, was he telling the

12 truth?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. If he told the reporter in answer to a question that they were

15 making the prisoners work, was that true?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. If he told the reporter in answer to a question regarding that

18 work "We dig trenches. We load and unload things. We perform heavy

19 physical work," would that have been true?

20 A. No.

21 Q. "With regard to the food they received" --

22 A. Partially.

23 Q. Partially. Which part?

24 A. No one dug trenches. Trenches weren't dug in Manjaca. There are

25 no trenches in Manjaca, nowhere near Manjaca. And as far as physical work

1 is concerned, yes, they would dig, plant potatoes, et cetera. They built

2 things. Cut -- felled timber and so on. So it's partially true.

3 Q. "When asked about food," if the person replied that bad food and

4 only a little of it, virtually nothing," would that have been true?

5 A. When -- sorry. When? What date? When was that?

6 Q. I believe the story was written on August 24th. It doesn't say

7 what date this interview occurred. So I've given you all the information

8 I can.

9 A. Yes. I can't answer you whether it was in June or early July,

10 then yes. Later on, no.

11 Q. Do you remember yourself speaking with this reporter Zoltan Nemeth

12 from Novi Sad?

13 A. No. I don't know. I don't remember.

14 Q. He says that he had a conversation with physician Enis Sabanovic.

15 That would be you, wouldn't it?

16 A. That's me, yes.

17 Q. And he says that you were brought to the camp from Sanski Most.

18 That's true, isn't it?

19 A. It is.

20 Q. And with regard to this issue about your arrest, he says that you

21 told him that upon taking power, the Serbs made a public announcement

22 asking anyone willing to aid in the situation to report to the police

23 station, that you reported and were brought to Manjaca. Is that true?

24 A. No.

25 Q. He says that even though you're a captive, you have it the best.

1 You're allowed to leave the fenced-in camp, you can perform your work?

2 MS. KORNER: Would we read the first sentence, please.

3 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Ms. Korner, please. Counsel, your

4 microphone.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Your microphone.

6 MS. KORNER: Sorry. I'm sorry. Could Mr. Ackerman kindly be kind

7 enough to read the first sentence of that paragraph to the witness.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, please do, Mr. Ackerman.

9 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, all right. "He ceaselessly praises the

10 commander and the soldiers. He praises them aloud so that everyone can

11 hear him. I understand the poor fellow, even though a captive, he has it

12 best. He's allowed to leave the fenced-in camp. He can perform his work

13 and can even have confidence that they are going to have mercy on him."

14 Q. Is that true?

15 JUDGE AGIUS: There are many statements there, Mr. Ackerman. I

16 would suggest by take them one by one. It's definitely more fair to the

17 witness.

18 MR. ACKERMAN:

19 Q. Were you allowed to leave the fenced-in camp?

20 A. No. The fenced -- but the command. Everything was fenced. The

21 command and all the rest was fenced. I didn't go out to work. It was

22 always in the camp. I consider it the camp compound, both the compound

23 and the infirmary. They allowed me to go to the command -- I mean, to

24 leave the command where the stables were. I was allowed to go to the

25 command where the infirmary was -- was. That, yes. But not to leave the

1 camp. I never left the camp, never not for a single day. I never once

2 went out of the camp.

3 Q. He says you told him you were permitted to perform your work.

4 That's true, isn't it?

5 A. Well, allowed to perform my work. I was allowed to examine

6 people, not perform my work -- well, yes. Yes, you could say that, yes.

7 Q. And he says that you have -- you had confidence that they were

8 going to have mercy on you. Did you tell him that?

9 MS. KORNER: And the next sentence, please.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. Mercy, no.

11 MR. ACKERMAN:

12 Q. Did you tell him --

13 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I think if Ms. Korner wants to ask

14 this witness questions on redirect about parts of this statement that I'm

15 not reading, she's perfectly free to do so.

16 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, it's misleading to the witness to only

17 read selected parts when this document is being put to him. They should

18 be put in full.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: That's correct, Ms. Korner. I suggest

20 Mr. Ackerman, that if you are putting a paragraph or this alleged report

21 paragraph by paragraph to the witness, please do so gradually one after

22 the other. But try to be -- read the paragraph as complete as possible,

23 please. Because otherwise, I mean, it's -- the last part of that sentence

24 or of that paragraph is of course important. I mean, and the witness

25 should be given the opportunity to answer or to comment about that last

1 part of the paragraph as well. I mean, it's -- this is not exactly as I

2 see it necessarily what the witness must have told the reporter if this

3 encounter ever took place. But it's how the reporter is presenting his

4 encounter with the witness.

5 MR. ACKERMAN:

6 Q. There's a statement that -- and I've asked you this but I didn't

7 get your answer. He says that you even have confidence that they're going

8 to have mercy on you. Is that true?

9 A. No. I never mentioned any mercy. How can there be mercy at such

10 a ...?

11 Q. And you have confidence that they are going to disregard the crime

12 he has not even committed. Is that true?

13 A. No. Crime? To forgive my crime.

14 Q. He asks you whether the prisoners are beaten, and he says you

15 answered no. Is that true?

16 A. No.

17 Q. He says that you said with regard to beatings "There is no such

18 thing here. The prisoners do not fight either." Did you say those

19 things?

20 A. No.

21 Q. "On occasion a person is injured at work. That's all." Did you

22 say that?

23 A. No.

24 Q. "Three-fourths of the cases involved, inflammation, laryngitis,

25 bladder infection, kidney infection." Did you say that or anything like

1 that?

2 A. Impossible. When a man falls ill, he comes to me. But what you

3 are saying about the journalists and -- where is this paper from? That is

4 not correct. Oh, I have no comment.

5 Q. I'm told that the translation was wrong. And let me ask you the

6 question one more time, sir. "Three-fourths of the cases involved,

7 inflammation, laryngitis, bladder infection, kidney infection." Is it

8 correct that you said that?

9 A. If it had to do with examination, if he asked me about the

10 examination of patients, those who came to the infirmary, those who came

11 out of the stables, most of them of course had colds. And a cold, yes,

12 that would fit. But -- oh, no. I don't know. I don't understand this.

13 You are listening to a journalist from Novi Sad. And if you are going by

14 what he said, then it is all very nice and clear.

15 Q. And you said, "Serious cases --" he says you said, "Serious cases

16 are taken to the Banja Luka hospital." Now, that is true, isn't it?

17 A. No. There were no severe -- serious cases, serious illnesses,

18 except what I said in the beginning when we arrived, when a few -- some

19 people were injured. But those were only a few cases. After that, nobody

20 went to the hospital except the warrant officer whom I accompanied to --

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Dr. Sabanovic, please answer these questions in

22 relation to what you could have said or possibly never said to this

23 journalist. In particular, if this meeting with this journalist ever took

24 place. The questions are not related to whether there were serious cases,

25 et cetera. Mr. Ackerman's question is related to what this journalist is

1 alleging that you told him and on the basis of which he wrote this article

2 or this report.

3 MS. KORNER: No. That's not quite right. Mr. Ackerman actually

4 this time was asking him -- he actually said to him, "Isn't it true that

5 serious cases were taken to Banja Luka hospital?"

6 MR. ACKERMAN: No. I asked him if he told -- or I meant to ask

7 him at least, if that's what he told the journalist.

8 MS. KORNER: Yes. Well, that's not actually what you asked.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: That's what you're -- you're to answer. I mean, the

10 allegation here is that you had -- you were interviewed by this

11 journalist. You said you don't recollect, remember having ever been

12 interviewed by this journalist. And all the subsequent questions are

13 based on the assumption that you were actually interviewed by this

14 journalist. Is what he says that you told him here correct or not? Is it

15 a faithful report of this interview or not? I mean, because your

16 answer -- your first answer, you did not exclude that there was ever such

17 an interview. You said you don't remember.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't. No.

19 MR. ACKERMAN:

20 Q. The final statement here that I want to ask you about, sir, is

21 this. The journalist claim that is you said this: "I believe that it is

22 important to state that thus far not a single patient of ours has died."

23 Did you say that?

24 A. No. Except -- perhaps I said yesterday that we had only one

25 patient die of natural causes. And I said it before this Chamber, before

1 this Court. And I don't know even if I talked with this man. Do you know

2 that it was ten years ago? Ten years have passed, and it's a little bit

3 absurd for you to now talk about journalists in Manjaca interviewing

4 somebody in Manjaca, the death camp, to say something opposite to -- or

5 what I didn't -- to what didn't suit them.

6 Q. Oh, I understand that position, sir. And it really is difficult

7 ten years down the road to remember all these things and to get them

8 right, isn't it?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. In your -- I don't think that answer got recorded. Yes, it is.

11 Okay. Thank you.

12 In your testimony yesterday, sir -- and I want to ask you just a

13 question or two about Betonirka. In your testimony yesterday, pages 27

14 and 28 of the LiveNote, you're talking about Miladin Papic, who was a

15 person you knew. You said that he -- you treated his family and that he

16 was the commander of that facility apparently at Betonirka. Is that

17 correct?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And according to the transcript, it says that once he saw you and

20 the condition you were in, he resigned his position. Is that true?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. So he left his job as commander as soon as he saw what had

23 happened to you; is that -- is that what you were explaining to the Trial

24 Chamber yesterday?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. You told the Trial Chamber that he never explained to you why you

2 were being treated the way you were but that he helped you and without his

3 help it was, you said -- these are your words "Otherwise I would have been

4 killed 100 per cent." That's what you said; right?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Now, how many people were there in Betonirka during that three

7 days that you were there?

8 A. In garage -- there were up to 50 people in one of the garages.

9 But there were several of them.

10 Q. And in all of the garages, do you have any idea the total number

11 of people that were at Betonirka while you were there?

12 A. No.

13 Q. How many people were killed that you're aware of while you were

14 there?

15 A. No. I don't know.

16 Q. Do you know of any? Do you know of one person that was killed at

17 Betonirka while you were there?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Is it your understanding that Miladin Papic was protecting

20 everybody there?

21 A. Well, no. I don't know.

22 Q. You then went to Hasan Kikic, I believe it's called. It's the

23 school, I think. And you were asked on page 30 by Ms. Korner: "The

24 people who were guarding you there, were they ordinary policemen or

25 military policemen?" And your answer is recorded as follows, sir: "There

1 was a war. There are no ordinary policemen any more. There's a war on."

2 A. Yes. Yes.

3 Q. Yes?

4 And then later at page 47 of the transcript, Ms. Korner was

5 talking to you about the prisoners at Manjaca, and you were asked if any

6 of them were really prisoners of war. And you answered at page 47:

7 "There was no war. There was no war at all. There was no war." That

8 appears three times in your answer.

9 MS. KORNER: Well, I'm sorry. Could you read on.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There was never --

11 MS. KORNER: I do think it's misleading to take selective quotes

12 out like this.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: I remember this --

14 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, I'll read the whole answer if you want me

15 to --

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Because he was referring to a particular --

17 MR. ACKERMAN: "I can tell you quite sincerely and truthfully all

18 those who came from Sanski Most, who from Kljuc. I don't know about

19 others because I wasn't in touch with them. But the people from Sanski

20 Most, there was no resistance in our town. There was no war."

21 Q. Now, when you talked about the policeman at Hasan Kikic, that was

22 Sanski Most. And your answer to the question there was: "There was a

23 war. There are no ordinary policemen any more. There was a war on."

24 I'll read your answer later on page 47 again. "There was no resistance in

25 our town. There was no war. There wasn't a shot fired when we were

1 captured in our homes or at our working places. So there was no war there

2 at all."

3 A. No.

4 Q. "There was no resistance."

5 A. May I explain? May I explain?

6 MR. ACKERMAN: I'm not finished, sir. I'm not finished.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: You're not finished.

8 MR. ACKERMAN: I'm waiting for the translation, Your Honour. If I

9 read any faster, they'll stop me.

10 I told you I'd read the entire answer, and now I'm doing that.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Go ahead, Mr. Ackerman. And before the

12 witness answers, I'll make something clear to him. Thank you.

13 MR. ACKERMAN:

14 Q. "I loved when the CNN would come and other international

15 broadcasters, and they would say 'this one was captured on the front' I

16 can't understand, this and I deny it. I cannot talk about it at all, not

17 a single one. I am very familiar with the municipality of Sanski Most.

18 Not a single person, not a single detainee from Sanski Most at Manjaca was

19 a prisoner of war. There was no war. There was no resistance. A couple

20 of policemen would simply bring 50 people from a particular village. What

21 kind? What resistance? What front line? What war are we talking about?"

22 Now, that was your answer a few pages after you talked about there

23 being a war in Sanski Most.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Now, pay attention to me, Dr. Sabanovic, please.

25 Because the question is clear enough. But it took sometime, because it

1 involved -- to unfold because it involved also reading excerpts from your

2 testimony of yesterday.

3 The question that is being put to you is a very simple one. There

4 are two moments during your testimony yesterday. At one moment you're

5 saying policemen, not policemen -- there was a war. There were no

6 policemen at the time of war. There is no question of a policeman. And

7 then the next moment you're saying that there was no war and you're trying

8 to explain that anyone talking of the existence of a war doesn't know what

9 he's talking about. So what you're being asked to do is to explain to

10 this Chamber whether you were contradicting yourself yesterday or whether

11 there is an explanation for what you testified yesterday in these two

12 different moments.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] First I was surprised. Now, it is

14 not a contradiction. When there is a war, you have two sides fighting

15 against each other. In this case, there was no resistance from the Muslim

16 Catholic side in Sanski Most. Nobody had a rifle, nor was a bullet

17 fired. But the Serb side came, pillaged, killed, fired. The Chetnik

18 side, the Serb side. And that is why I said that there was no war. I

19 apologise. I raised my voice. And that is that we offered no resistance.

20 But we were taken to camps, civilians were taken to camps, because it now

21 turns out that I was on the front line in the war and that I'm a prisoner

22 of war. And I'm a civilian victim, because I was taken from home and that

23 is why I said that there was no war. But war needs two sides fighting,

24 and then you have a war. But to round up civilians and drive them all to

25 concentration camps, that is not a war. That is a genocide, killing,

1 annihilation of one nation of a people. That is two peoples.

2 MR. ACKERMAN:

3 Q. Now --

4 A. That is reason.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Are you satisfied with the answer?

6 MR. ACKERMAN: I totally understand the answer.

7 Q. My question now is: Why then when you were asked earlier by

8 Ms. Korner about the policemen that were guarding you, whether they were

9 ordinary policemen or not, you told her "There was a war. There are no

10 ordinary policemen any more. There's a war on"? So if you say there was

11 no war, why did you give her that answer?

12 A. I gave it because it was called war. But there was no resistance

13 in Banja Luka. In Sanski Most, in Prijedor, there was no resistance.

14 People were killed, intellectuals and peasants and others, and that is --

15 well, it depends how you look at it. There are two sides. There is one

16 side which is superior, which is armed, which is destroying, and there is

17 the other side which is unarmed and which perishes. When seven doctors in

18 a town are killed, then there is nothing else, a genocide.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: I think that's enough. Mr. Ackerman, you can move

20 to the next question, please.

21 MR. ACKERMAN:

22 Q. At page 36 of the transcript, sir, you were asked by Ms. Korner:

23 "Would you accept that it was on or about the 6th of June of 1992 that

24 you went to Manjaca?" Your answer -- and I'll read the whole answer,

25 sir: "Why, yes. Of course I didn't know the date when I left. There was

1 no way I could note the dates. So as of the WC onward, I simply don't

2 know anything about that. I didn't have anything, nor nobody explained

3 it. Nobody mentioned it. Nobody cared what date it was. But yes, it

4 must have been there give or take."

5 Now, in the statement that you gave to the German investigators,

6 you told them that you went to Manjaca -- you told them -- it's on the

7 second page of the German statement -- that you were in Manjaca from 3

8 June to 24 November. And you were then -- you were then challenged about

9 that, I think is a way to describe it.

10 Another witness who allegedly arrived at the Manjaca camp with you

11 said that he was taken there on 6 June 1992. What do you say to this?"

12 Your answer, according to --

13 A. I say yes. I don't care whether it was the 3rd or the 6th. I

14 didn't keep up with the dates. I still don't know them. Don't ask me

15 about dates; ask me about months. Only about months, or two months. Come

16 on. It was a horror.

17 Q. According to the German authorities, you said whether or not it

18 was correct about June 3rd. You said: "My answer is correct. I am sure

19 of it."

20 A. I don't care.

21 Q. "I came on 3 June 1992." "My answer is correct. I'm sure of it.

22 I came to Manjaca camp on 3 June 1992." Now, are you sure of it or not?

23 A. I'm sure that a couple of days mean nothing to me, and I told

24 everybody, "Don't ask me about dates," because I wasn't getting ready for

25 my baccalaureate, for my matriculation. But for -- but to survive in

1 something that did not exist in Europe, even in World War II. Could have

2 been the 6th. Whatever way you take it, I couldn't care less. I don't

3 deny it.

4 Q. You know, if that's the case, why didn't you say to these people

5 who were asking you questions in Germany, "I don't know whether it was the

6 3rd or the 6th. It could have been the 5th or the 7th. Don't ask me

7 about dates." Why didn't you say that to them?

8 A. I do not think these are mistakes. I do not think it is

9 important, and I paid no attention to it.

10 Q. My question is: Why didn't you say to them that it was not

11 important, that you didn't care what date it was and they shouldn't ask

12 you about dates? Why didn't you say that to them?

13 A. I said that to everybody. From the beginning I was saying that.

14 There are still these formalities which are surprising. To look where the

15 stables were or what had I known that it would be like, this perhaps I

16 would have drawn a picture.

17 Q. Do you think this is funny what we're doing here? Are you

18 enjoying this and smiling at me like that?

19 A. Not all of it. Not all of it. Sorry.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Ackerman, please. I call you to order. Let's

21 proceed.

22 MR. ACKERMAN:

23 Q. Instead of telling these German authorities that the date was not

24 important to you, what you said to them was, "My answer is correct. I am

25 sure of it. I came to Manjaca camp on 3 June 1992." Now, do you want to

1 deny that's what you told them? You go ahead. You can deny that.

2 MS. KORNER: This has already been -- I'm now going to do the

3 American thing. This has been asked and answered. And Your Honour has

4 already told Mr. Ackerman --

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Objection sustained. Let's proceed,

6 Mr. Ackerman.

7 MR. ACKERMAN:

8 Q. There's a matter that I'm somewhat confused about and I need you

9 to straighten out for me. At page 37 and 38 of the transcript, you were

10 talking about getting on the trucks that took you to Manjaca. And you

11 talked about people's hands being tied two by two. Were your hands tied,

12 or was this other people on the trucks?

13 A. No, others.

14 Q. Now, a few moments ago I was reading to you from the report of

15 that reporter from Novi Sad. And I asked you when people were seriously

16 injured they'd be sent to Banja Luka by ambulance, and you said no, that's

17 not the case. I believe that was your response. And if I'm wrong about

18 that, you tell me I'm wrong.

19 A. You're not wrong. But if I might say, it was seldom. It just did

20 not take place. I said in my statement that it comes as a surprise how

21 resilient people are considering the state they are in. And they did not

22 die of natural causes, nor were there any serious illnesses. There were

23 no infectious diseases, no epidemics broke out, and that's what I said.

24 That it came as a surprise. Certain things I have tremendous life

25 experience. But there are certain things, certain dubious things which I

1 cannot accept. Of course a doctor will send a serious case to where such

2 a case belongs to.

3 Q. Did you tell us at one point that you were kicked by someone and

4 flew through the air for 2 or 3 centimetres -- 2 or 3 - not centimetres -

5 2 or 3 metres?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Yes?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. You actually flew through the air for 2 or 3 metres as a result

10 of a kick.

11 A. Yes. That's right. In the stomach. A policeman about 2 metres

12 tall hit me. I flew over others who were beneath me about 2 or 3 metres.

13 That's clear. I didn't even weigh 50 kilos.

14 Q. In your testimony yesterday you talked about being asked to

15 examine four young men who had a skin disease which you diagnosed as

16 scabies and how the policemen brought four bottles of medicine that you

17 used to treat them with. And then in the middle of that answer or halfway

18 through that answer you also started to talk about a young man who had a

19 broken left shoulder and a cast that went up to his elbow and the cast did

20 not assist his broken shoulder but made it worse. You remember that,

21 don't you?

22 A. Yes, I do.

23 Q. And this all occurred rather early, shortly after your arrival at

24 Manjaca, because these four young men were building that fence we've been

25 talking about; right?

1 A. On the same day.

2 Q. Yes.

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. At page 56, you told us that you examined this young man with the

5 cast.

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. "After I examined him" -- you said this: "After I examined him,

8 he was sent to Banja Luka."

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And then there appears this sentence: "And I must add, I left

11 immediately." Surely you didn't leave right after that, did you?

12 A. Where?

13 Q. Well, it -- the implication one gets is that you left the camp

14 right after you examined this man and he was sent to Banja Luka. That's

15 not true, is it?

16 A. Well, that's not logical. If you weren't listening, that's

17 something else. On the first day of the arrival in the camp, it was

18 dusk -- if I went anywhere, I went to the stables. I couldn't have gone

19 to Banja Luka or up into the sky or anywhere else.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Dr. Sabanovic, one moment. Mr. Ackerman is reading

21 out what the interpreters and the other officers put down for us as having

22 been stated by you yesterday. If it's not clear, if it doesn't make sense

23 to you, you're not allowed to attack Mr. Ackerman. You're just, please,

24 clarify things to us. This is what we have. What we have here says that

25 after you sent this person to Banja Luka, you left immediately. Did you

1 leave? And if it has been reported like that.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] To the stables.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Oh, to the stables. Okay. So that's -- that's the

4 explanation.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise. I apologise.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Ackerman.

7 MR. ACKERMAN: Thank you.

8 Q. Do you know a gentleman by the name of Alexandar Bijelic nicknamed

9 Aco? Do you know him?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Is that the person you were talking about maybe out there with the

12 trucks when the large number of people were shipped in from Prijedor? The

13 person you were talking about earlier today?

14 A. I don't know. No. No. That's not the person. That person, his

15 name was -- his last name was Stojnic. He was demobilised in Banja Luka.

16 He would come to my house. He contacted me, and I'm grateful for that.

17 Q. What do you know about Aco Bijelic?

18 A. He was a nurse. He studied medicine for two years. Later on he

19 became a nurse. He worked in the military hospital. And he came in an

20 official capacity to Manjaca. He replaced a nurse in Manjaca and he

21 worked there together with me. He was in the infirmary and so on.

22 Q. So he worked with you in the infirmary at Manjaca as a nurse.

23 A. That's right.

24 Q. Okay.

25 A. That's right.

1 Q. On page 72 of the LiveNote transcript, you talked about a young

2 man who stepped on a mine and his right leg was cut off below the knee.

3 And you told us that an ambulance came and took him off to Banja Luka to

4 the surgery ward. That's true, isn't it?

5 A. Yes, it is.

6 Q. Dr. Derviskadic, you told us at page 58 of your testimony

7 yesterday that he did not want to testify. I think you said "That is what

8 he told me." When did you talk to Dr. Derviskadic about --

9 A. That's what I heard.

10 Q. When did you talk to him about coming here to testify?

11 A. I heard it from other people. He had taken Swiss nationality and

12 he said he wouldn't come to testify before this Court.

13 Q. Let me read you answer, because it's a little bit ambiguous. And

14 I'd just ask you to explain it to me. You were asked about him, and you

15 said: "Yes. His name is Meho Derviskadic, who now lives in

16 Switzerland."

17 A. That's right.

18 Q. "He did not want to testify because --" there's a pause "-- well,

19 I don't know. He was admitted into Swiss nationality and so on and so

20 forth. That is what he told me."

21 What did --

22 A. Well, that's what I heard. I didn't speak to him. That's

23 something I heard.

24 Q. So what you said was not true or it was -- it was taken down

25 wrong? Which is it?

1 A. It's not true. It's not true.

2 Q. Okay.

3 A. Let's say it's not true.

4 Q. All right.

5 A. It's not important.

6 Q. I want to ask you about Emir Mulalic, who is a person you say died

7 in Manjaca. Correct?

8 A. He was killed.

9 Q. You said that his sternum was broken when you saw him, he was

10 bleeding at the mouth and at the nose, and that "We established that he

11 was dead." Right?

12 A. Yes, yes.

13 Q. In your statement to the German authorities - and I'm at page 13

14 of the English version - you were asked about Emir Mulalic, and you'd said

15 that you were certain that the dead man was Emir Mulalic, "whom I had

16 known previously."

17 And then further down the page, apparently Dr. Derviskadic

18 had made a statement - although it's not totally clear - that you had

19 reanimated Emir Mulalic. And you said: "I can state that I am certain

20 that I did not reanimate Emir Mulalic. He'd been my patient before the

21 war." That happened during those conversations you had with the German

22 authorities, didn't it, that interchange we just talked about?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. I want you to look now at a -- at an exhibit in this case. It's a

25 Prosecutor's exhibit, P754.

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Ackerman, we have three minutes left.

2 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, we'd better stop. We're not going to get

3 there. We'll start with this in the morning.

4 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, can I just inquire. We've got two

5 witnesses lined up for tomorrow. I don't know how much longer the Defence

6 would like to be with this witness. Any idea, anybody?

7 MR. ACKERMAN: Looks like I have an hour left; maybe a little

8 less.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: And Madam Fauveau?

10 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] I'll probably finish

11 tomorrow, perhaps before the second break -- I'll certainly finish

12 tomorrow.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you.

14 Dr. Sabanovic, we are not finished with you as yet. You will have

15 to return tomorrow. But I'm pretty sure that we will finish with you

16 tomorrow.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

19 We are adjourned until tomorrow afternoon at 2.15.

20 No. Tomorrow it will be in Courtroom number III, and the same

21 applies for the day after tomorrow. Okay?

22 MR. ACKERMAN: Why?

23 JUDGE AGIUS: The reason is Milosevic is sitting till 4.00 in the

24 afternoon. So we'll have to vacate this room because of the Albanians.

25 Thank you.

1 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned

2 at 6.28 p.m., to be reconvened on Wednesday,

3 the 5th day of June, 2002, at 2.15 p.m.

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