1 Wednesday, 19 June 2002

2 [Open session]

3 --- Upon commencing at 2.28 p.m.

4 [The accused entered court]

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Madam Registrar, perhaps we could proceed with

6 calling the case first and foremost.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. And this is the case number,

8 IT-99-36-T, the Prosecutor versus Radoslav Brdjanin and Momir Talic.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you.

10 Mr. Brdjanin, good afternoon to you. Can you hear me in a

11 language that you can understand?

12 THE ACCUSED BRDJANIN: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your

13 Honour. I can hear you and I understand you.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. You may sit down.

15 General Talic, good afternoon to you. Can you hear me in a

16 language that you can understand?

17 THE ACCUSED TALIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honour.

18 I can hear you and I understand you.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, and you may sit down.

20 Appearances for the Prosecution.

21 MR. KOUMJIAN: Good afternoon, Your Honours. Nicholas Koumjian

22 with Julian Nicholls assisted by case manager Denise Gustin.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, and good afternoon to you,

24 Mr. Koumjian.

25 Appearances for Radoslav Brdjanin.

1 MR. ACKERMAN: Good afternoon, Your Honours. I'm John Ackerman.

2 I'm with my co-counsel Milan Trbojevic and Marela Jevtovic.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: For a moment I thought you were waiting for the

4 B/C/S translation. Good afternoon to you, Mr. Ackerman.

5 Appearances for General Talic.

6 MR. ZECEVIC: Good afternoon, Your Honours. My name is Slobodan

7 Zecevic, and my dear colleague is Natasha Ivanovic-Fauveau.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: And good afternoon to you too.

9 So let's proceed. There is a preliminary issue.

10 MR. KOUMJIAN: A very brief motion, Your Honour. Ms. Richterova

11 and Ms. Korner asked me to make a motion to request the Court to change

12 the status of the next two witnesses. BT14, which has the disclosure

13 number of 7.139.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Mm-hm.

15 MR. KOUMJIAN: And BT15, which has the disclosure number of

16 7.143.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: You --

18 MR. KOUMJIAN: They request that they be given closed session, and

19 the reason being that apparently they come from very small hamlets. Most

20 of the persons that they are going to discuss are relatives and their

21 testimony would likely reveal their own identities. If we did it in open

22 session, we'd be going in and out of open session very, very frequently,

23 and we'll just make a request for closed session.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Ackerman.

25 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honours know that I'm fundamentally opposed to

1 closed sessions. I think courts should operate in the daylight.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Zecevic.

3 MR. ZECEVIC: Your Honours, we agree fully with the position of

4 our learned friend, Mr. John Ackerman, and we oppose the closed session as

5 well.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: And the first one of these witnesses is due today?

7 MR. KOUMJIAN: We anticipate that the witness would start

8 tomorrow. Actually, Ms. Richterova is doing both, and she is just meeting

9 the second witness this afternoon.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: What do you mean the second witness?

11 MR. KOUMJIAN: Well, the -- BT15 she's meeting with right now.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: So BT14 is present --

13 MR. KOUMJIAN: BT14 is --

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Is present in the The Hague.

15 MR. KOUMJIAN: Is in the The Hague.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: And BT15 is present in The Hague.

17 MR. KOUMJIAN: They're both present in The Hague, yes.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: So basically we're talking of BT14 occupying --

19 starting tomorrow.

20 MR. KOUMJIAN: Yes, Your Honour.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: That's Thursday. Which would mean that BT15, if we

22 finish with BT14 on Thursday, BT15 can testify on Friday. No?

23 MR. KOUMJIAN: I think the -- Ms. Richterova is estimating --

24 again, this is just what --

25 JUDGE AGIUS: The reason why I'm asking questions is because I was

1 trying to do my best to change the sitting Friday from the afternoon to

2 the morning, but I was told that there may be some difficulty and that the

3 witness wouldn't have arrived in The Hague by then.

4 MR. KOUMJIAN: That's correct. And --

5 JUDGE AGIUS: How is it correct if BT14 testifies tomorrow and the

6 next would be BT15, and BT15 is already in The Hague?

7 MR. KOUMJIAN: I think the -- what I understand is that

8 Ms. Richterova's anticipating that she could finish both tomorrow and that

9 if she can't, then we want to go ahead with the next witness who --

10 JUDGE AGIUS: This is --

11 MR. KOUMJIAN: Is not arriving, as Your Honours said, until Friday

12 afternoon -- excuse me.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.

14 MR. KOUMJIAN: I'm sorry. So she -- that witness --

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Let's take -- let's take these issues.

16 MR. KOUMJIAN: Is available for Friday --

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's take these issues as we go along.

18 [Prosecution counsel confer]

19 [Trial Chamber confers]

20 JUDGE AGIUS: So our order is as follows with regard to the

21 Prosecution's motion for the evidence of these two persons to be heard in

22 closed session. We will -- for the time being we are deciding that the

23 first one will be heard in closed session subject to our decision at any

24 moment to decide to revert -- reverse that decision and go into open

25 session if we think that the closed session motion is no longer justified.

1 The same would apply to the second of these witnesses, but we

2 would confirm whether we would proceed with the hearing of his or her

3 evidence, not to give an indication of whether we're talking of a male or

4 a female - when we come to his or her evidence. But for the time being,

5 take it that the motion is being accepted subject to reversal. Okay?

6 And tomorrow we should be also in a position to decide whether we

7 can take advantage of the possibility of having this courtroom available

8 on Friday morning, in which case, if it is at all possible, we'll try to

9 sit on -- in the morning rather than in the afternoon, if it's agreeable

10 with -- with everyone. Because if it's not, then we sit in the afternoon.

11 Okay?

12 MR. KOUMJIAN: Your Honour, Ms. Korner has asked for the afternoon

13 because she will only meet the witness Friday morning in order for her to

14 testify in the afternoon.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Five minutes ago you told me that Ms. Richterova is

16 meeting with BT15 now.

17 MR. KOUMJIAN: Sorry. That's right. I'm talking about the third

18 witness.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: And the witness -- which third witness? The next

20 one?

21 MR. KOUMJIAN: I believe he's protected.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah. But I think if you really sincerely believe

23 that we will get to the third witness by Friday morning, it will be -- you

24 will be making my day, because it will be the first -- the first time that

25 wishful -- wishful thinking changes into optimism -- a realistic optimism.

1 Oh, I see.

2 MR. KOUMJIAN: Your preference is just that that witness be taken

3 care of even if we have to take him out of order.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah. And I'm being reminded that the third witness

5 we had agreed actually on a date for him to be here.

6 But if I remember well, it's not the date -- let me try and find a

7 document that I have.

8 In the meantime, you can bring in the witness, please.

9 Now, my secretary has removed the previous lists because she

10 decided I no longer need them. There is Witness 7.52 -- 7.52. And if I

11 remember well, Ms. Korner had told us that he had requested or there was

12 some kind of prearrangement that he would come on a specified day to give

13 evidence. When was that?

14 MR. KOUMJIAN: The 21st, I believe, which is Friday.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: I see. Okay. So that may well be a good reason why

16 we should retain it in the afternoon. Okay. But I frankly don't see how

17 we can finish the other two witnesses between tomorrow -- between today

18 and tomorrow. Okay.

19 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Ackerman.

21 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour might recall that Witness 7.139.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.

23 MR. ACKERMAN: Who is the next witness, is a witness who we had

24 agreed could be presented by way of 92 bis. And the Talic Defence wanted

25 her brought here for cross-examination.

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah, but --

2 MR. ACKERMAN: So we will not have any questions for her.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: But that's you. I think Madam Fauveau had not

4 agreed to that --

5 MR. ACKERMAN: That's right.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: She --

7 MR. ACKERMAN: That's right.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: I mean, it's -- it's again my recollection -- I may

9 be wrong. But if I remember well --

10 MR. ACKERMAN: No. You're right. I'm just telling you we won't

11 have any questions, so we may in fact be able to finish two witnesses

12 tomorrow. That's all I'm saying.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you, Mr. Ackerman.

14 [The witness entered court]

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Good afternoon, Mr. Biscevic.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: I hope your patients in your dental clinic don't

18 have to wait as much as you had to wait again today. Unfortunately again

19 we had some procedural matters to dispose of, which have nothing to do

20 with you. So you don't have to worry about it. But once more I owe you

21 an apology.

22 So let's proceed with the repetition of the solemn declaration

23 that you made yesterday, please. And then we can go ahead with the

24 examination-in-chief.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

1 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

2 WITNESS: FAIK BISCEVIC [Resumed]

3 [Witness answered through interpreter]

4 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, sir. And you may sit down.

5 Mr. Nicholls, he is all yours.

6 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you, Your Honour.

7 Examined by Mr. Nicholls: [Continued]

8 Q. Good afternoon.

9 A. [No interpretation]

10 Q. Yesterday when we left off we were -- we had just finished talking

11 about what happened at the radio -- or at Magarice and how you were going

12 to be taken to the MUP building. Before we get to that, I have one

13 question that I'd like to ask you to clarify some of your testimony

14 yesterday. You talked about the practice of announcing that non-Serbs had

15 to turn in all of their weapons, and you stated that that normally

16 occurred by radio broadcast. That's how you would be informed to turn

17 over weapons. And you gave a personal example of how you heard that

18 broadcast in Sanski Most and turned in your family's hunting rifles. My

19 question is: Do you know which authority made those broadcasts and made

20 those orders, whether that was the civilian local authority or military?

21 A. Over the Sana radio, it was the civilian authorities that made

22 such announcements, in the name of the army because all the weapons that

23 were surrendered were surrendered to the MUP and there was a military

24 department there. The Sanski Most military department was located there

25 too, and that's the part that they would surrender weapons to.

1 Q. Okay. Thank you. Let's move on now to your transfer to the MUP.

2 And that would have been approximately the 29th of May, 1992; correct?

3 A. 27th.

4 Q. And the MUP is in the -- roughly in the -- sorry, did you have a

5 comment?

6 A. Yes. It's in the centre of the town. On the 27th I was

7 imprisoned and on the 29th - yes, you are right - I was taken to the MUP

8 in Sanski Most.

9 Q. And were you -- while you were taken to the MUP, were you able to

10 see the condition of Sanski Most town from the car you were transferred

11 in?

12 A. It was night. There was no electricity. It was in the middle of

13 the night. It was dark. The town wasn't illuminated, so it was

14 impossible to see anything.

15 Q. Okay. What happened upon your arrival at the MUP?

16 A. After midnight --

17 Q. Sorry. My question is: What occurred when you arrived there?

18 What was the first thing that happened to you around midnight when you

19 arrived at the MUP?

20 A. When I arrived there, they put me in the first cell, where I think

21 there were about ten men who had already been arrested. And as they told

22 me later, some of them had been there for two days, some of them had been

23 there for three days. They were colleagues of mine, respected citizens.

24 They'd all been captured in their homes, taken there and put in the first

25 cell in which I was too. The other two who came with me, the other two

1 friends, they were in the other cell, they weren't with me. And there

2 were other people there too, people whom I knew, citizens of Sanski Most.

3 Q. I'm going to ask you some questions about who was there with you

4 in a few minutes.

5 When you say "they" put you in the first cell, who was they? Who

6 were the guards when you arrived?

7 A. Well, those three soldiers who took me there by car. They took me

8 by the arms and as -- the entrance to MUP, they took me through MUP,

9 through the yard, and then there were cells. They took me there. They

10 unlocked the door and simply put me in one of the cells.

11 Q. Okay. I'd like to show you some photographs now and see if you

12 recognise what's depicted in those photos. So if Denise can help me get

13 the first one to the ELMO.

14 A. This isn't very clear. You can't see things very well. It's

15 probably because of the light coming from overhead. So that's why the

16 photograph isn't very clear. You can just make out the contours, the

17 outlines.

18 Q. Okay. That's -- that's a little bit better.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: That's better.

20 MR. NICHOLLS:

21 Q. Now, that's obviously a picture of a hallway. Can you identify

22 what that is a photo of, where that hallway is?

23 A. That's the hallway that we used to enter our cells and to go to

24 the toilets, which was -- which were at the end of this hallway to the

25 left.

1 Q. Is there anything in there -- in this photo which is different

2 from the way you remember that hallway in 1992, when you were there?

3 A. As -- I can't see it very well, could I have a look at the

4 original and have a look at that? Then I might be able to make things

5 out.

6 MR. NICHOLLS: Yes. If he could be the holder of this copy, not

7 on the ELMO.

8 A. On the right side when we went out into the hallway there were

9 many documents. There was a lot of paper, which we used on a regular

10 basis because we didn't have any other paper. Smokers, when they smoked,

11 then they would gather leaves and they used that paper to roll their

12 cigarettes. I can't see that -- I can't see those documents there now.

13 Q. Okay.

14 A. This door, the glass door here didn't exist at the time, I think.

15 Now you can see some kind of a door.

16 Q. Thank you. If you could be given the second photo.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Before he's handed the second photo, please, this is

18 going to be tendered as Exhibit number what?

19 MR. NICHOLLS: P828 would be the first one.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: So for the record the witness has been answering

21 questions related to what's being admitted as Exhibit P828.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I speak? The second photograph

23 that you have shown me, that's probably my cell. The door is an iron door

24 and that's -- the door of my cell was like that. The lines were the same,

25 the form is the same. But the beds weren't there. There were just boards

1 which were about 2 metres long and 2 metres wide.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Mr. Zecevic.

3 MR. ZECEVIC: Your Honours, we would very much appreciate if we

4 could really see what the witness is talking about. If there is another

5 copy, the other copy can be put on the ELMO so we really know what -- what

6 the witness is referring to.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. You are perfectly right.

8 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Although you can barely see anything on the ELMO; at

10 least, I can't -- I can see very little. And probably the dentist is

11 right. It's a question of lighting. Because when they put down the

12 lights, we could see better.

13 Yeah. In fact you can see better.

14 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Everyone has a right to see -- have a look at the

16 photo while it is being examined by the witness, especially the accused

17 themselves, you know, it's -- in particular.

18 Yes. Sorry to have interrupted you, sir. Please go ahead.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This room -- I can now see that

20 there are two beds in it, and they have blankets on them and they are

21 separated. At the time when we were imprisoned, that wasn't there. There

22 were no beds. There were just some sort of boards. There were legs of

23 about 4 or 5 centimetres, and it was a sloping sort of board. It wasn't

24 level. That was the first cell in which I was imprisoned. It didn't have

25 a lock, but a lock would be put on it when they opened the door for us and

1 there was a key down there which was used every time because the lock

2 wasn't very good, it wasn't functioning. Each time we had to get up and

3 push the door from the inside so that it could be unlocked and then the

4 guard could come if he wanted to come. The door was always locked.

5 Sometimes the lock was in that small hole because the room itself was

6 hermetically sealed. The window was 40 by 60 sent metres. It had two

7 sort of locks, two security devices so that you couldn't enter or leave

8 that building. But from the inside there was some tin which covered it

9 and holes had been drilled, about 4 millimetres in diameter. These holes

10 were very small. Between 16 to 20 of us were in that room at times, so

11 there wasn't enough air in that room. It was hot. The weather was

12 hot. There wasn't any water. There wasn't any air. The room was about 2

13 and a half times 4 or 5 metres. So mostly there was not enough room for

14 us to sit down, let alone to lie down. And in addition you weren't

15 allowed to walk because if they heard that something was happening

16 outside, the police would come immediately to beat us.

17 MR. NICHOLLS:

18 Q. Mr. Biscevic, thank you.

19 A. If you need me to say anything -- to add some more information.

20 This room was very small, the weather was very hot. And when we spent the

21 night in there, it was so hot that I -- that water would trickle down the

22 walls, especially on the tin part because of the difference in

23 temperature. So those who were lying down below, they were happy -- they

24 were more content because they weren't lying in water. But those who were

25 not down below, they were wet because of the water.

1 Q. Thank you. At this point I just want you -- we'll talk about all

2 of those --

3 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

4 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you.

5 Q. We'll talk about all of those living conditions which you're

6 describing. But at this point I just want to get through showing you

7 these photos and having you tell the Chamber any differences between these

8 photos and what you remember your cell being like in 1992. And I think

9 you've described that -- that photo well, that the differences were the

10 door lock and that there were no beds in the room -- or just a board.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: And Mr. Nicholls, this will be Exhibit P829.

12 MR. NICHOLLS: Yes, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Just for the record. The witness has been answering

14 questions related to document P829.

15 MR. NICHOLLS:

16 Q. And now if you could be shown the third photo. We'll try to get

17 that on the ELMO as best we can.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: This document will become Exhibit P830.

19 MR. NICHOLLS: Yes, Your Honour.

20 A. This is my cell. When you look at it from the inside, you can see

21 a radiator in it, which was next to the door, next to the entrance.

22 Q. So this would be the view if one's back was to the wall with the

23 window with the metal cover above one's head; is that right?

24 A. Yes, exactly. Exactly.

25 Q. And do the dimensions of that cell, as far as you can tell by the

1 door and the size of the radiator, is that the same dimensions that you

2 remember the cell being in 1992?

3 A. I think so.

4 Q. Thank you.

5 MR. NICHOLLS: That then is P830.

6 And there's one more photo, Your Honours. The next one will be

7 P831.

8 Q. Now, when you're ready, if you could take a look at that photo.

9 Tell me if you recognise it and describe what it is.

10 A. Yes. It's quite clear here. You can see that it's a sheet of tin

11 which was used to cover the window, and you can -- it's 40 by 60

12 centimetres. Those are the dimensions. And you can see the holes which

13 someone had drilled before, the diameter of which was 4 millimetres. And

14 that was our only source of air and of light, since there was no other

15 window. All we had was that metal sheet.

16 Q. And that metal sheet depicted there is the same or very similar to

17 the one you remember being over the window in 1992?

18 A. Yes, it was more or less like that. It's probably the same one.

19 Q. Thank you.

20 MR. NICHOLLS: That's the last photo.

21 Q. Now, we've seen --

22 MR. NICHOLLS: That would be P831.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: You've said that already.

24 MR. NICHOLLS: Yes. Thank you.

25 Q. Now I'd like to go back and go over a little bit more detail what

1 you started telling us about before we saw cell number 1, which you were

2 kept in. When you arrived and you were placed by the guards in that cell,

3 how many men were in the cell with you the first night?

4 A. I think seven or eight men were already there. I was brought

5 alone and the other two were taken to another cell. I don't know how many

6 people were in other cells, but there were seven to eight in mine.

7 Q. On that first day or night, rather, that you arrived, were you

8 beaten or mistreated upon your arrival at the MUP?

9 A. When I came there, I'd already been beaten up and I was nearly

10 comatose, and the only thing that was important to me at the time was that

11 when they saw how I looked when I got there they gave me some space to lie

12 down. So I had a privilege of being able to lie on this board and the

13 rest had to sit. When they saw my back and when they saw what condition I

14 was in, this is how they treated me, so that I could lie down.

15 Q. Did you know the men who were in the cell with you?

16 A. Yes, yes.

17 Q. Who were they? What kind of people were they? Where did you know

18 them from?

19 A. People from Sanski Most, distinguished citizens, educated people,

20 businessmen, people who were well off. Not all of them were active in

21 political parties. There were those of us who were, but there were also

22 those that did not belong to any parties. And there was a man there of

23 Catholic faith whom I didn't know before. He was a bank director and then

24 he was fired and taken immediately to the cell.

25 Q. Now, you were -- and correct me if I'm wrong, but you stayed in

1 that cell number 1 for about three months, about 95 days.

2 A. 95 days.

3 Q. You said there were seven men in that cell the night you arrived.

4 What was -- did that number stay constant, or what was the greatest number

5 of men that were kept in that cell with you at any point during those 95

6 days?

7 A. Well, usually almost daily people were brought in, interrogated,

8 and then most likely taken to Krings or sports hall or Betonirka or to the

9 school, because there was more room there, and those people that had been

10 interrogated were not returned to our cell any more. Some people stayed

11 for several days. Some people stayed for longer. But the five of us were

12 there in the same cell from the very first day.

13 Q. And if you remember the names, who were the five of you that

14 you're -- that you're speaking of?

15 A. There was myself, Faik Biscevic, Redzo Kurbegovic, Sabic Suad,

16 Batic Zikrija and Faruk Botonjic. I was a dentist. Redzo was a civil

17 engineer. Sabic Suad was a public prosecutor. Mr. Batic and Mr. Botonjic

18 were professionals in the MUP. They were policemen and had been fired.

19 Q. And just trying to be clear on -- what was the greatest amount of

20 men -- I understand people were coming in and out, that it was somewhat

21 transitory. But what were the greatest amount of people who were kept

22 in that cell, if you can remember?

23 A. On one occasion there were 20 of us there. So we simply were one

24 on top of the other, because this room had 8 or 9 square metres and could

25 not hold 20 people in it. People that were brought there had all been

1 beaten. And since all of these people were beaten up, they didn't really

2 care if they just had to stand on one leg or they could sit down. They

3 were simply happy to be in a room where they didn't beat them. They were

4 simply happy not to be tortured any more.

5 Q. Now, was any medical care provided to these men who you say had

6 been beaten or to yourself while you were there? Was anybody treated by a

7 doctor while there were there, any of the prisoners?

8 A. They only used batons there. Nobody received any medical

9 treatment. I, as much as I was able, tried to help. In the beginning the

10 men who was a nurse, in his room tried to help, but he soon went

11 elsewhere. He was the nurse, so he helped people in the second cell and I

12 helped in the first one. We had to do everything we could with our five

13 fingers and the water that we had at our disposal.

14 Q. Tell me about what kind of toilet facilities or -- and shower

15 facilities you were allowed while you were in there for those three

16 months.

17 A. When we came into the prison, to the cells, the first thing they

18 ordered to me and Redzo Kurbegovic was to clean two toilets that were at

19 the end, behind those three cells. I assumed that they'd been using those

20 toilets. Perhaps they'd been used by some prisoners. I don't know. But

21 the toilets were blocked and there was perhaps half a metre of faeces and

22 paper in that -- in those two toilets. It was difficult to open the door

23 and get into the toilet. And they forced us to clean it with our bare

24 hands and to clean the water pipe -- sewage pipe so that the toilets could

25 be used. This is what we had to do in the first days, and we were

1 actually happy that we'd been allowed to do that so that we could be

2 able to use the toilets at all.

3 In the morning they would give us five minutes at breakfast time

4 to use toilets and then also five minutes in the evening.

5 Q. And it's pretty clear from those photos there were no toilet

6 facilities or running water available for you inside the cell; correct?

7 A. There was nothing in the cells. There was a small wash basin and

8 a small faucet in front, but the water system that we had assumed that

9 there had to be a water pump that would work on electricity and pump the

10 water. So since the pump wasn't working, that meant that we weren't able

11 to use this wash basin and faucet at all; almost never at all. In the

12 room in which we were, there was nothing else. They only opened the room

13 five minutes in the morning and five minutes in the evening so that we

14 could go out to eat breakfast and dinner and use toilets. In the

15 meantime, we got by, by using juice containers, 1-litre juice containers.

16 And prior to -- and we also used our underwear, undershirts and shirts,

17 because a lot of people had diarrhoea, so they basically used their

18 clothing and towels as toilets.

19 Q. And tell me about whether or how often you were able to shower and

20 wash yourself and bathe under these conditions.

21 A. I went for -- I and everybody else went for 62 days without

22 changing our underwear or clothing. And on the sixty-second day, a Serb

23 guard, whom, as I learned, was an agriculture engineer, he came one

24 morning, opened the cell -- because he normally brought the food. And he

25 lined us up, took another soldier to escort us, and we went through the

1 yard and there was a football field on the other side of the prison, and

2 there were shower stalls there for football players. And on the

3 sixty-second day we were allowed to go there, to take three minutes to

4 wash ourself and wash our clothing, which we were very happy to do, just

5 using our hands, without any soap. And then we went back with wet clothes

6 but very happy that we were able to take any kind of a shower after 62

7 days. And then once again, during those 95 days of imprisonment, we were

8 again taken by him to take a shower.

9 Q. How were you able to keep track of the days while you were in

10 there? How do you know that was the sixty-second day?

11 A. The tin that we had on the window, as I told you, had holes in

12 it. So during the first ten days we hoped that we would be released. But

13 then after that we started counting among ourselves whether it was the

14 ninth or the tenth day. And then I had an idea to take a sheet of paper

15 and to start filling the holes in the tin or -- so we would move this

16 little piece of paper in a different hole every day. And this is how we

17 were able to count the days, using these holes that were in the tin.

18 And I would like to add something else. Since there were that

19 many of us, in the beginning especially, both in the first and in the

20 second and the third cells, it was very difficult to use toilets, because

21 they would tell us the first cell has three minutes to use the toilets and

22 have breakfast. So we basically had to run. And then one guard came and

23 took out two men from our cell and took them behind the place where we

24 ate. Behind there, there was a room behind which there was about a metre

25 and a half of space in between there and Betonirka building. And he

1 ordered them to dig a hole 1 metre wide. And they put two boards there.

2 And this is -- was a makeshift toilet that we used, because the other

3 toilet was very crowded.

4 Q. And in this small space with that many men in it, how were you

5 able to sleep at night? How -- what were the sleeping arrangements?

6 A. There was no sleeping there. During the day and otherwise too we

7 simply sat there quiet. We were -- we had to sit tightly with our legs

8 very close to our bodies, next to each other, and nap if we could within

9 24 hours. Some people slept during the day. Some people slept during the

10 night. But it wasn't typical sleeping like people normally sleep. This

11 was just making by in the sitting position. So when we came to Manjaca

12 after 95 days, we were completely almost disabled. I had lost 32 kilos

13 during those 95 days, and we were simply happy to be able to stretch out.

14 Q. So other than leaving to go to the toilet or that time you were

15 allowed to go take a shower, you weren't let out to get any exercise or

16 walk around at any point during your stay there to stretch your legs.

17 A. Only if the guard called one of us out. Since the troops were

18 there, the troops ate in the canteen. We were usually taken to the

19 canteen to clean it up. So that was the only possibility to get some

20 exercise. Other than that, no, we never left the cell; not at all.

21 Q. And just to move on. If you could tell me what the air quality

22 was like in that cell and what the temperature was like during those

23 summer months in Sanski Most when you were held there.

24 A. We were imprisoned at the end of May. And on August 27th we left

25 that place. In Bosnia June, July, and August are summer months with real

1 summer heat. The temperature is normally above 30 centigrade, so it is

2 very stuffy and humid. It rains very infrequently. So these cells in

3 which we were really -- had a terrible stench, so that in the morning when

4 the guard would come to open this cell they usually had to hold a

5 handkerchief over their nose. And then while we were eating the door

6 would stay open for three to five minutes and that was really a lucky

7 circumstance because that was the only time when the room got any extra

8 air. And then the rest of the time we were locked in.

9 Q. And typically -- if you briefly describe -- you said the food.

10 What kind of food were you given on a typical day while you were there, in

11 the morning and in the evening?

12 A. In the morning -- in the beginning when the war just broke out and

13 when they brought us there the troops -- the soldiers ate there, so there

14 was more food and there were more remains, leftovers left to us after the

15 troops. And then afterwards it became -- it became a standard practice

16 that bread would be split into many pieces and each of us would get one

17 slice of bread and -- and a cup of some -- something to drink. And the

18 size of the slice depended on how many people there were there and into

19 how many pieces the loaf was sliced. And for our second meal, we would

20 get whatever was left over and again a slice of bread.

21 Q. You say you lost approximately 30 kilos while you were held there,

22 you believe.

23 A. 32 kilos.

24 Q. During the time when you were in the cell, were you and these

25 prisoners who you knew from Sanski Most, were you allowed to talk amongst

1 yourselves? Were you allowed to do anything to pass the time?

2 A. When we went to the toilet we saw this window which was on that

3 side, and we would pass by it and we could see that there was always a

4 chair under the window and there was somebody always there standing and

5 listening to what we were saying. So if we had any conversation among us,

6 then we would speak very quietly so that nothing could be heard. And

7 if -- on one occasion they brought in their own soldiers, Serb, who

8 detonated a bomb, and he was quite crude. He was banging on the door

9 asking to be released and they beat him as long as he was still speaking

10 and talking. So we didn't even dare speak or make any noise because they

11 could come in and beat us and do anything they wanted to us.

12 Q. Tell me -- and we'll move on. When was the first -- you weren't

13 beaten on the day you arrived, on the night you arrived. When was the

14 first time that you were personally beaten in the MUP?

15 A. As I already came in all beaten up, I had blood in my urine and I

16 wasn't really doing well and I wasn't beaten in the first few days. There

17 was -- neither were others. We were simply there in prison. They fed us

18 and so on.

19 On the 9th of June, they called me, Kurbegovic, Ferid Burnic,

20 Hase Osmancevic. They took us up there to the MUP building. I was taken

21 upstairs to the room -- I think number 32. And I got there at 11.00 and

22 stayed until 6.00 p.m. They interrogated me there.

23 Q. If you can briefly describe what you mean by they interrogated you

24 and what happened to you in that room.

25 A. When I got into that room, next to the door there was a chair and

1 they told me to sit down there. Well, the door was there --

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Biscevic, instead of saying "they," if you know

3 who the persons were, if you can identify them by name, then please go

4 ahead and -- so that we will avoid a further question later on. Thank

5 you. How many of them, whether you know them by name, whether they were

6 policeman or whether they were -- go ahead.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, on this occasion there were

8 all professional officers whom I knew personally. They used to work in

9 MUP. They used to be investigators in peacetime. Dosenovic Mima was the

10 chief investigator. Stojnovic -- I think his first name was Darinko. He

11 was the note-taker. He sat across the table. Rajkica Stanic was a judge

12 in Sanski Most. And since the Serbs took over power, he put on a military

13 uniform and acted as a coordinator taking documents from one room to the

14 other and coordinating their work. And there were also two soldiers whose

15 names I don't know who used to beat people.

16 The usual practice was to have Mima begin interrogation. I had to

17 sit on the chair. I wasn't allowed to move or get up. He interrogated

18 and also beat people with his hands and kicked them. Once he got tired,

19 which was after about an hour and a half, he would leave the room and then

20 in the meantime Rajkica would come in and they would talk among

21 themselves. So when Mima got tired, then after that two soldiers would

22 come in with batons. And they didn't interrogate us or say anything.

23 They simply beat us.

24 In the beginning when I was there Mirzet Karabeg and Burnic Ferid

25 were brought in as well. They were facing the wall. They were not

1 allowed to look at me nor I at them and they asked them to confirm

2 something for which they were accusing me. They naturally confirmed

3 everything they were asked to confirm. And after that they left the

4 room.

5 Q. So you were beaten by both civilian police officers who had been

6 civilian police officers before this conflict and also by soldiers;

7 correct?

8 A. Yes. They took turns, policemen, officers, and upon their leaving

9 the room two soldiers would come in who did not interrogate us, just beat

10 us. And then once the soldiers would leave, then Mima would come in again

11 continue interrogation.

12 Q. Okay. And briefly what types of questions would they ask you?

13 You said they asked your -- people you knew to confirm what was said about

14 you. What were they trying -- these interrogators, what were they trying

15 to get you to confess to, or what information were they trying to get from

16 you?

17 A. They wanted me to confess that I was guilty for everything that

18 was going on, that it was all my fault. They wanted me to confess that

19 I'd been arming Muslims in Muslim places. They wanted me to admit that I

20 had weapons. Since I denied all that then Mima, who interrogated me -- he

21 cursed my balija mother and he told me, "Well, everybody is accusing you

22 but according to you you are blameless." And then he had five bullets of

23 different calibres and he asked me which bullet do you want me to use to

24 kill you? And I told him, "Well, use the largest bullet." And then in

25 the end a -- there was a photographer from whom I borrowed money and

1 failed to return on time. Then this photographer talked in cafes that I

2 failed to return money, and I guess that one of the informants of Mima

3 sat in those cafes and then Mima told me, "Well, it is said here that you

4 borrowed money from people." And I said, "Well, call that man here and

5 have him say that I borrowed money in order to buy weapons." This is

6 simply all he wanted. And once he got tired, he would leave and then the

7 soldiers would come in and if they were not happy with the amount of

8 beating I received, then they would take my legs and put them under the

9 chair so that I couldn't move and then they would beat me all over my

10 body, over my soles, so that I couldn't walk for 20 days. And I think

11 that I had blood in my urine for more than a month, because I was beaten

12 all over. I was beaten from 11.00 until 6.00 p.m.

13 Q. How often -- you've just described a terrible beating. How

14 often -- how many times approximately do you think you were beaten during

15 your imprisonment at the MUP?

16 A. On that day we finished this at 6.00 p.m. and he said, "We'll

17 continue our conversation the following day." However, strangely enough

18 when I got there the following day, he didn't beat me at all. He asked me

19 to sign a document, which I signed without reading it. And then after

20 that, I never really received a beating as bad as the one on the first

21 day, because on that first interrogation they wanted simply to break me

22 down, to have me sign everything they wanted me to sign, and we did as we

23 were told because that was the easiest thing to do. And then after that,

24 since in our cell only us civic leaders remained - there were five of us

25 in the first cell, six in the second, and three in the third cell - we

1 received what they called special treatment and heads of shifts would

2 guard us in -- for eight hours. And this special treatment basically

3 boiled down to the fact that nobody else was allowed into our cells except

4 them. And these premises were in the area where there were constantly

5 troops and policemen. So troops would come in at any time, they would

6 shoot if they wanted to, simply do what they wanted. So sometimes if a

7 guard wanted, he could after business hours, after 2.00 p.m., turn over

8 the keys of our cells to soldiers so that soldiers could come in and do as

9 they pleased. And that took place every day, despite the fact that we

10 were as they said people that deserved special treatment. Anybody could

11 come in and beat us if they so pleased.

12 Q. And were you ever formally charged with any criminal offence

13 during this time?

14 A. First of all, they threatened to accuse us and said that the

15 Muslims and Croats would put us on trial. Then they said that we would be

16 going -- to be taken to an official court, that we'd be officially tried.

17 But up till Manjaca nothing of that kind happened. We weren't tried, but

18 we were taken to Manjaca.

19 Our other leaders who were killed in the night -- well, yes, I

20 heard that there was some sort of a trial.

21 Q. Did you meet any Red Cross representative while you were in the

22 MUP?

23 A. In July the guard came, the one who locked up. He told us to open

24 the door and to take out the things that we had in there and he said that

25 we shouldn't close the door -- that we shouldn't return, that we should

1 stay in the yard and sit down there, to sweep up the rooms, to clean -- to

2 tidy things up, to put things in order. We were surprised by this. First

3 of all, we were surprised because for the first day -- for the first time

4 on that day we had the opportunity of seeing each other, all the people

5 who were in the cells, because the principle was that we would go out, eat

6 quickly, drink quickly, and then we would return. The door to our cell

7 would be looked and then the door to another cell would be open so that

8 people couldn't see each other and prevent us from arranging anything.

9 That was the first time we were all allowed to go out into the yard and

10 perhaps we sat out there for about a -- we'd been sitting there for about

11 an hour when a Red Cross representative appeared. I think he was from

12 France. And he was accompanied by an interpreter. He came and he brought

13 registers in which he entered our names, said that we had been registered

14 with the Red Cross. He gave us the possibility of contacting our

15 families. We were provided with a little sheet of paper where we could

16 write down a message up to ten words, and with each of us in the cell --

17 he spoke to each person, everyone from the cell, and he asked us where we

18 were from, how we had got there, what we were guilty of. So we were all

19 able to speak for about 30 seconds or a minute with this person.

20 Q. Did conditions improve after that visit for you at all?

21 A. No. No. When he went, everything remained the same.

22 Q. And at any point were you allowed any visits from any friends,

23 family members, or anybody else?

24 A. Later, perhaps towards the end of July and August, they allowed us

25 this because they said that there was not so much food for the soldiers,

1 since we almost had nothing for -- for lunch. So they allowed us on

2 Saturday to have visits in the morning. So since I didn't have anyone,

3 apart from a cousin and a girlfriend of my son, they came to visit me on

4 Saturday. That was a few Saturdays before we were taken away to Manjaca.

5 Q. Just before we moved on -- before we move on, was anybody

6 specifically singled out that you observed for more severe beatings or

7 more frequent beatings? Was anybody singled out for extra punishment?

8 A. As I said -- and I'll repeat this. From the 25th to the 27th all

9 the party leaders, they'd been brought from their houses, from their

10 homes, and locked up in the cells. The only person they didn't lock up

11 was the party secretary, Kamber. And the hodzas, Seferovic Emir -- Emir

12 Seferovic, I think that a month and a half later one morning when we got

13 up and went to breakfast Suad Sabic's leather jacket was in the yard. He

14 said that it seems if they have captured Hasib. And that was true and a

15 few days later they brought in Emir Seferovic. And in the case of Hasib

16 and Emir Seferovic, as they were clerics -- as he was a cleric, on every

17 day -- every day after a meal there were regular beatings. And when night

18 fell, every night -- in addition to us, to beating us, they had probably

19 beaten us sufficiently so they didn't have any desire to carry on. But

20 every night they beat them, but not just every night but also in the

21 morning since the two of them were alone in a cell they would take them

22 out separately to eat and then when they returned them, four or five of

23 them would put them into the cell and then you would hear the screaming,

24 the groaning, and then they would laugh, they would talk about what they

25 had done to them, how they had beaten them. This took place on a regular

1 basis, these two prisoners were beaten every day.

2 Q. You've used the name Kamber and also Hasib. But that's the same

3 person. It's Hasib Kamber; correct?

4 A. Hasib Kamber is one person, the secretary. And Emir Seferovic is

5 another person. And if I can add something, I would like to draw your

6 attention to the fact that as they were soldiers, these soldiers would go

7 to the front, as they said. Usually a new shift would last. A shift

8 would last for 20 or 25 days. After 25 days, a return from a -- return

9 from the front would be organised. And after they would -- after

10 returning from the front, they would all go to the playground which was

11 next to the place we were kept in. This is where they would be lined up,

12 and Mr. Basara would give a speech. This never failed to happen. I don't

13 know whether Talic -- Mr. Talic came; I can't say. But officers came and

14 they encouraged their soldiers, and it was particularly difficult then

15 because they would shoot and there were no limits. And once the officers

16 had given their speeches -- made their speeches, they would leave the

17 playground. Men would leave there -- would remain there. They would get

18 drunk. They would go into the yard of the prison. They would get the key

19 from the duty guard who was there and then they could go whatever they

20 wanted to do and do this for as long as they wanted to do. And this was

21 something that happened regularly when these soldiers would return from

22 the front.

23 Q. And just last question on this. If you know, who was the person

24 in charge of the MUP? Who was running the MUP at the time you were

25 there?

1 A. In the first few days? Are you talk about the first few days?

2 Dobri -- Drago Vrucinic was the head of the MUP for us in these three

3 cells and which Mico Krunic was the head for Betonirka. And I don't know

4 about the others.

5 Q. When did you leave the MUP? When were you taken out of the MUP?

6 A. On the 26th of April.

7 Q. I don't know if that's the translation -- I'm asking you -- you

8 arrived at the MUP around the 28th or 29th of May. I'm asking when you

9 left the MUP after that 95 days that you stayed there, you said. Do you

10 remember the date when you were transferred out of the MUP?

11 A. 65 days. We were there for 95 days.

12 Q. When you were released -- after that 95 days, where did you go?

13 What happened?

14 A. As would happen every morning, we went to have breakfast. We went

15 to the toilets. And then we returned to the cell. About 11.00 we heard

16 that the guards were talking about something. You could hear that in the

17 yard. The doors to our cells were opened. The duty guard appeared and

18 said, "Gather your things and go out." The same thing happened in the

19 other cells. But we heard Kamber and Seferovic saying, "You stay on.

20 You're not going. The others are going." When we got out, they lined us

21 up and we saw that there was a bus that had arrived in the yard and it was

22 waiting there. The door was open and they said, "Get in the bus."

23 MR. NICHOLLS: I don't know when we break, Your Honour. But it

24 might not be --

25 JUDGE AGIUS: If it's convenient for you to break now -- to stop

1 now, we'll stop now.

2 MR. NICHOLLS: I would prefer that, thank you.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: We have another five minutes. But if we stop now,

4 obviously we will start five minutes earlier.

5 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. So we'll have a break now of 15 minutes,

7 doing our best to resume at five minutes to 4.00, if that's okay. Okay.

8 Thank you.

9 --- Recess taken at 3.40 p.m.

10 --- On resuming at 3.59 p.m.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Mr. Nicholls, you may proceed.

12 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you, Your Honour.

13 Q. We were just about to start talking about your transfer to Manjaca

14 camp. And that would have been in late August 1992. And you were just

15 telling us about how you were told to go outside and you lined up and

16 there was a bus. If you could continue now. Tell me where you went on

17 that bus that morning.

18 A. We got into the bus. Another policeman was waiting for us there

19 and he said, "Sit down. No one is to get on or get off. You're going to

20 be taken away now. Nothing nasty will happen to you." We left the prison

21 yard and went down a street. There is a way through Sanski Most which

22 leads to Bosanska Krupa. We took this road. We thought we were going to

23 be exchanged because the border was there -- or rather, demarcation line

24 between the army and the Serbian positions. But we didn't go towards

25 Krupa, but there was an area where there was a factory called Krings. The

1 bus went there. And then these people of ours who were in the Krings Hall

2 also started getting on the bus. About 45 to 50 people were in the bus.

3 That's how many got out of the Krings Hall. And then we headed back in

4 the direction of the prison. We didn't get to the prison but we passed by

5 the prison and took this byway, this round about way and headed in the

6 direction of Kljuc. And then we also thought that we would be exchanged

7 or would be going to some other place.

8 Q. Let me stop you there. Thank you. When you say that at Krings

9 you -- there were -- more people got on the bus who were "these people of

10 ours," who are you referring to? Who got on the bus at Krings?

11 A. Well, we recognised a lot of people. They were Muslims and

12 Croats. As we were told later on, they were in -- in this Krings factory.

13 They got on the bus.

14 Q. And were these civilians to your knowledge?

15 A. They were all civilians.

16 Q. Okay. Please continue. I'm sorry. You said you were heading

17 back towards the prison. You were hoping that you were going to be

18 exchanged. You did not actually reach the MUP. Then where did you go?

19 A. We headed towards Kljuc. And when we got to the village of

20 Vrhpolje, that's by the River Sana where the bridge is -- there's a

21 crossroads on the left and there is a macadam road. I'm a hunter, so I

22 know that area very well. And I noticed we were going -- I noticed the

23 mountain Mulez -- which is called -- and the Serbian village of Oljace is

24 behind the mountain. And behind that village Manjaca is located. So we

25 were a hundred per cent sure that we were going to Manjaca. And that

1 proved to be the case. We were taken to Manjaca.

2 Q. And approximately how many civilians were transported with you to

3 Manjaca that day? I'm trying to get an idea of how many people were in

4 this transfer that you're telling us about.

5 A. Well, up to about 50. Since there are 40 seats in the bus and the

6 people on the bus, the number was slightly higher, and it was probably up

7 to 50 people. We didn't count everyone, but that should be the figure.

8 Q. And just to be clear, was everybody who had been with you in cell

9 number 1 in the MUP that day transferred to Manjaca along with you?

10 A. Yes. Yes.

11 Q. What happened when you arrived at Manjaca camp? Who met you and

12 what happened next?

13 A. When we arrived in front of the Manjaca camp, we were ordered to

14 get out and to line up four by four and to stand before the entrance to

15 Manjaca. And from -- on the other side we saw that there were people who

16 had been lined up, and they were looking outside. We didn't know what was

17 happening at the time. But later on we found out that the old people and

18 children who were in Manjaca, a bus came to collect them and took them

19 back to Sanski Most. When they opened the entrance to that camp, we

20 entered the campgrounds. They told us to sit down on the grass and to

21 wait for orders and told us not to talk, et cetera. There was perhaps

22 some sort of a warehouse there, something that used to be a warehouse, and

23 they told us to enter one by one. Up to ten people could enter the area

24 at a time. And then they stripped us and they told us to display the

25 things -- the items that we had. And I said during the last few Saturdays

1 we had visits and our relatives would bring us clothes to change into and

2 they would bring blankets for some people. They brought me a brush which

3 was specific. It consisted of two parts, and it was easy to carry, maybe

4 a toothbrush. When we stripped we had to turn to face the wall. And on

5 the other side, the Sarenci, the guards who were wearing sort of

6 camouflage uniforms, they looked at the items and took what they wanted.

7 They made a list of our names. They said, "You're going to camp number 2,

8 stable number 5." And since there were about 50 of us and that was a big

9 stable, we all went to that second camp. When they had registered us,

10 they lined us up. And as that was in the first camp -- those were the

11 grounds of the first camp, they took us to the second camp then and they

12 showed us the stables.

13 We entered the stables, and each man tried to find a place for

14 himself.

15 Q. Now, you said that there were soldiers in the camp and you also

16 used the words "they" a few times when you were talk about who ordered you

17 to do certain things upon your arrival. Once you were inside the camp,

18 were all the guards and the personnel running the camp soldiers?

19 A. When we left the prison -- the Sanski prison, then official

20 policemen turned up, wearing uniforms and the policeman who was guarding

21 us, who was sitting on the first seat, they were in different uniforms, in

22 blue uniforms. Later on we found out that these policemen who worked as

23 civilian policemen, they had no access to the camp. The people in

24 camouflage uniforms were there. They were soldiers from the JNA, and they

25 had access to the camp. And beyond the fence, that's where the policemen

1 wearing blue uniforms could stand guard. So there was an obvious

2 difference between these two police forces.

3 Q. Thank you. Now, you say you were assigned to stable number 5 and

4 that the men would go in there and then try to find a place, a spot for

5 themselves. Can you describe the interior -- or what that structure was

6 like, the stable you were kept in.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: If you have a photo or anything to show him, then we

8 can speed it up. That way you have our authority to proceed that way.

9 MR. NICHOLLS: I was just going to have him describe it from his

10 memory, Your Honour, rather than use a photo.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay.

12 MR. NICHOLLS: If you prefer, we can probably find one.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: I've seen several, actually. We've seen video

14 clips. Anyway, please go ahead, Mr. Biscevic. Can you recall -- recount

15 to us what it was like in the stable that you were in, in Manjaca. Can

16 you describe the place to us.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was a huge area, about 80 metres

18 along and 20 metres wide. In the middle there was a sort of elevated part

19 which was concrete -- made of concrete, about 5 or 6 metres wide. There

20 were metal bars on the sides to prevent cattle from climbing up. There

21 were doors on each side so that tractors could enter with a trailer and so

22 that the cattle could be provided with food. On the left and right side,

23 a little lower down, 1 metre lower down, there was also a part where we

24 inmates on the upper surface -- detainees would lie on the upper surface

25 on both sides and on the lower surface there were detainees on both sides,

1 two rows of detainees, and their heads were facing towards the outside and

2 their legs towards the inside. There was no ceiling, just a roof. So

3 there was enough air because this -- this area hadn't been hermetically

4 sealed off.

5 MR. NICHOLLS:

6 Q. And you stated when you were describing the MUP how because of the

7 confinement you had trouble walking and there was terrible air in cell

8 number 1. Were you saying is it in some ways when you arrived at

9 Manjaca, those conditions were better; is that correct? You had more air

10 and you could move around better?

11 A. That's correct. And another thing which was better for us who had

12 come there from the cells -- we had enough air. That's what was

13 important. We saw that there was no ceiling, there was enough air, so you

14 could breathe as much as you wanted to, you could breathe freely.

15 And thirdly, as there were a lot of people there, then at

16 breakfast time and for dinner you'd go to the toilet. And we could also

17 go outside and be in the sun for a couple of hours, and that was a vast

18 improvement when compared to the conditions in the -- in the cell. That's

19 why I said that the conditions were better there than in the cell.

20 Q. Now, you were in Manjaca from the end of August until your release

21 on November 15th. During that time you were there, did the conditions

22 stay the same, get better, or get worse over those months?

23 A. When we arrived there the older inmates in Manjaca said that the

24 situation was excellent in comparison to what it used to be before, and

25 they said that an international inspection team had come and entered the

1 camp. And after that, the situation improved; things got a lot better.

2 Q. And did you meet anybody from the Red Cross or other international

3 humanitarian organisations while you were in Manjaca? I'm speaking of you

4 personally.

5 A. Yes, I did. Yes.

6 Q. How often?

7 A. As I was a medical expert and someone from the Red Cross came

8 every day, a medical official, and he would control -- inspect the food,

9 since the inmates were so emaciated. They were unable to walk. So

10 initially when I first arrived there, they would distribute milk and oil,

11 to which sugar had been added. They would give the inmates who were not

12 able to walk this, and this nurse came every day -- this medical worker

13 and ensured that this was distributed. And the cooks preparing the food

14 were people I knew from Sanski Most. And when we spoke, they said, "This

15 is a colleague of yours. He's a medical -- he has a medical background."

16 And so we spoke about this.

17 Q. You started talking about food. Can you describe what type of

18 food and how much you would be given typically during a day in Manjaca.

19 A. When we got there, they told me then that the food was excellent.

20 For breakfast we got a quarter of bread, we got milk, tea, or cocoa. We'd

21 get a cup of milk, tea, or cocoa. And when we had arrived -- when we

22 arrived there they distributed tins for two inmates. That was for

23 breakfast. And for lunch you would get a cooked meal and also a quarter

24 of bread -- a quarter of a loaf of bread. The difference was that a

25 certain amount of food would be cooked. And those who first turned up,

1 they would be given this food first. They would get a sort of -- food

2 of a better quality. It would be thicker. And then those who came later,

3 as there was not very much food, in order to ensure that there was enough

4 food, the cooks would take a bucket of water and pour it in so as to have

5 more food. And then you would get a lot of water as food. Perhaps you'd

6 have a few beans or some lentils in this liquid. And sometimes you would

7 turn up and you wouldn't get anything other than a slice of bread. That

8 was lunch. There was no dinner. That was what we would get for lunch and

9 dinner.

10 I would also like to add -- to point out that when I was there,

11 that was towards the end. Merhamet started sending meat on Wednesday at

12 times, and we could see that -- the inmates and I could see that because

13 they would bring that meat inside, and this was provided as aid for the

14 inmates. The following day, when there was food made out of this meat,

15 there was almost nothing left. Perhaps a lucky person would get a piece

16 of meat or so because the cooks said that the soldiers who were on guard,

17 they would take this meet away, they would take it to their homes. So we

18 got very little of this meat.

19 Q. So on any given day one prisoner might get an adequate amount of

20 food, another might get only water, depending on when they were allowed to

21 eat lunch; correct?

22 A. There was never enough food. You'd get a plate. But no one would

23 ask you whether the food you had on the plate was sufficient or not you

24 had to be happy with what you got. But if you turned up first you'd get a

25 thick broth that was good. If you came later on, then the broth you would

1 get would be thinner and you wouldn't fare as well.

2 Q. And just to be clear, is what you're saying is that even if you

3 arrived first and got the thick broth, it would be better, but that it

4 wasn't enough, that it wasn't sufficient?

5 A. Well, you'd always get a plate of food and a quarter of a loaf of

6 bread. That's what you would get. There was no lunch and there was no

7 dinner. This was something that you'd get between lunch and dinner.

8 That's what we had.

9 Q. What was the quality of the water which you were given to drink in

10 Manjaca, and can you describe how that was given to you.

11 A. Well, it was a big problem in Manjaca because there wasn't any

12 water, so there wasn't enough water and there wasn't enough drinking water

13 and the water that we had was a very poor quality. As the water was a

14 problem, when representatives of the Red Cross arrived we asked them for

15 us to be allowed to have water so that we could drink enough water -- have

16 enough water to drink. Then the Red Cross sent plastic canisters, 4-litre

17 canisters. They are made of plastic. And one canister would be given to

18 five inmates. And about 2 or 3 kilometres from the camp there was a lake

19 where cattle would go to drink -- would be taken to drink. And every day

20 about 100, 200, or 300 inmates would go with those canisters and they

21 would fill these canisters up, since that water was dirty and it wasn't

22 suitable for use, for -- when I was there, I started filling up a canister

23 with water and the policeman who took us there, he started urinating where

24 I was getting water. They were just looking for an excuse to beat you up.

25 So that's how they would gather water and then people had diarrhoea on a

1 daily basis. Most inmates had stomach problems, stomach illnesses, and we

2 complained about this and later on the Red Cross brought us tablets which

3 were put in those canisters. They were tablets for disinfection. So that

4 improved the water to a certain extent.

5 Q. And you said that inmates would get ill from drinking this bad

6 water. Can you tell me what medical care was provided for sick inmates in

7 Manjaca to your knowledge.

8 A. Well, usually -- when I got there, the condition was already

9 improved. So when I got there a nurse would come into the barracks and

10 ask who was sick and then those names would be recorded, and then there

11 was a physician there, Dr. Sabanovic, and another person, Mehmed

12 something. And they would see patients and give what medical treatment

13 they were able to do so. I, as a person with medical background, would

14 give advice or any other help that I could to people who had different

15 kinds of wounds. And people would also go and see these physicians and

16 the physicians would be -- would provide what first aid they could.

17 Q. Did you work as a dentist while you were in Manjaca? Did you do

18 anything in your own personal expertise?

19 A. Yes. When I came to Manjaca, there was a dentist there, Flat

20 Leopold, a colleague of mine from Kljuc. His father was a German and was

21 imprisoned as well as a soldier of the army. And since this dentist's

22 father was a German, I guess he had connections and he was released soon

23 after my arrival. For a long time there was no dentist there at all.

24 Asim, the nurse that I mentioned, since there were 3.000 inmates there,

25 that means that there would always be at least somebody who had some

1 dental problems. Then he, Asim, would extract teeth and sometimes he

2 would frequently break their teeth. And if that should happen, they would

3 bring a patient to me. And if I was able, I would help the person. And

4 since this is really -- this really was not a proper way to fix these

5 problems, then I guess somebody told the guards that I had been a dentist

6 and then they came and told me that I could treat people in the same room

7 in which Dr. Mehmed and Sabanovic saw patients together with a nurse. So

8 it was a small room, a former warehouse; perhaps 4 by 4 metres. In one

9 corner I had a chair and I also had some -- I had pliers and when a

10 patient would come towards the end of my stay there the Red Cross used to

11 provide us some anaesthetics, Novocaine, and if I could I would

12 anaesthetise the patient and pull out their teeth.

13 Q. Did you have enough anaesthetic for what you considered an

14 adequate amount for the patients you -- the people you were seeing?

15 A. Not nearly enough. People most often went without any

16 anaesthetic. And at any rate, we were never able to provide a full dose

17 to anyone because we only got one bottle and we didn't dare ask for

18 another one. If they brought us one, then fine. But if they didn't, then

19 we couldn't ask for any. So I would give a bit more than the regular -- I

20 would give a bit less than the regular dose. And some people even had to

21 go without anaesthetics.

22 On some occasion if teeth broke, which happened often because the

23 pliers were not good and the patients were quite young, then in that case

24 I had to make a much bigger wound and in fact damage the tooth bone,

25 because that was the only way to extract the tooth. Because if the tooth

1 remained in, then the patient would suffer terrible pain. So I had to do

2 what I could.

3 Q. Now, you said some of the people you treated were quite young.

4 And earlier on you said when you arrived that a bus was leaving with old

5 men and you said children, I believe. Can you describe the range of ages

6 of people that you saw in Manjaca while you were there, the youngest

7 people you saw and the oldest.

8 A. There were children. And I considered children those who are 16

9 or 17 years old. There were many of them, and there was even a greater

10 number of the elderly. So it wasn't unusual to see a 70-year-old man whom

11 they considered to have been a soldier and a dangerous person. There were

12 children there, malnourished. There were retarded children with whom we

13 had problems, and they were considered to have been soldiers as well. So

14 there were all kinds of people there. When the first bus left, not all of

15 the children boarded it. And those that remained left on November 15th

16 together with us, the elderly. So those who were younger than 18 left

17 with the elderly persons.

18 Q. Did you personally know or recognise from Sanski Most anybody

19 under 18 who was in the camp, any 16-, 17-year-olds?

20 JUDGE AGIUS: After his arrival?

21 MR. NICHOLLS: Yes.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: That is, from the end of August till November, when

23 you left Manjaca.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There were two boys whom I knew

25 personally, Kalic Senad and Sabic. I don't know his first name. He

1 was the son of my colleague, Sabic -- or rather, his sister. And I knew

2 him a bit more than the others, as well as Kalic Senad who was retarded

3 and who used to live close to my house. So I knew him, and he was in my

4 stable and there were children in other stables too.

5 MR. NICHOLLS:

6 Q. Now, you said these people were considered soldiers. Were any

7 of these people you knew -- were these people that were in there with you

8 soldiers, or can you describe the people that you knew personally who were

9 in there at the same time that you were? I'm talk about your personal

10 experience, not anything that you learned later.

11 A. All of the people whom I knew were civilians, and I can guarantee

12 this. Absolutely. I knew them personally. I knew where they'd been

13 brought from. I knew what they were accused of, and I know that that

14 wasn't true.

15 Q. Now, during your time in Manjaca, were you personally beaten or

16 physically abused by the guards?

17 A. Those older ones who were in the camp used to tell us that it was

18 the usual norm to have the inmates taken out and beaten. Once we got

19 there, it wasn't so. And at night when the stables were locked, it was

20 quiet. Around Manjaca, around our camp, on the outside of the wire there

21 were people with dogs, the guards with dogs who stood every 5 or 6 metres

22 guarding the perimeter so that nobody could go out. In the evening, at

23 night after it got dark, these dogs would howl, and it was unpleasant to

24 listen to. And the older inmates told me that strangely enough in the

25 past when they used to beat inmates, the dogs howled too, together with

1 people, the whole time while they were beaten. And this always took place

2 at the same time. So it was quite weird that the dogs continued to howl

3 even though there was no more beating going on.

4 When I was there, the beating was not typical, was not usual, of

5 the kind that used to take place before. Sometimes they would beat those

6 people who were talking, because stables would be locked at 5.00 and then

7 after 5.00 it had to be absolutely quiet. And in one stable there were

8 five or six hundred people, so it couldn't be completely quiet. And if

9 they found that one stable was a bit more loud than they wanted it to be,

10 then there was always a person in every stable who was in charge of the

11 stable, who was sort of the head of it. And in our stable that position

12 was held by the man called Boskovic. There was a guard there called

13 Sarenac. And for example if one stable was a bit more loud than they

14 thought was normal, then the head of the stable would be told to take out

15 ten people and those ten would be beaten, and the head of the stable had

16 to select who would be taken out.

17 Or another example: Sometimes in the kitchen, there would be a

18 lot of us there and they were all -- some people were retarded, some

19 people were simply with poor nerves. And if we were more loud than

20 acceptable to them, then Sarenac would call the person who was more loud

21 out and that person would have to put his arms on his back and bend his

22 head and then Sarenac would beat him. And if the person fell down, he

23 would have to get up and regain the same position and Sarenac would

24 continue to beat him. If he complained or even tried to protect himself

25 by raising his hand or arm, then two more guards would come in and then

1 they would take that person to the place that we called the white yard,

2 and that was a place where they beat people. There was a room for

3 beating. And this was a daily occurrence. Yes, it was beating, but it

4 wasn't as bad as it used to be.

5 Q. Thank you. And just to be clear, my question was also whether you

6 were personally beaten. Were you ever punched or kicked or beaten while

7 you were in Manjaca at all? I'm just speaking personally about you

8 yourself, not what you observed with other people.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Tell us yes or no. Just yes or no, please. If you

10 were beaten, tell us. And if you were not, then tell us that you were

11 not.

12 THE WITNESS: [No interpretation]

13 JUDGE AGIUS: He said no. You weren't beaten.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

15 MR. NICHOLLS:

16 Q. Sorry. It's not perfectly clear to me. You were --

17 JUDGE AGIUS: He wasn't beaten. This is what he is saying.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes. On one occasion they did

19 beat me.

20 MR. NICHOLLS:

21 Q. Now, you said that at 5.00 everybody had to be quiet and the

22 stables would be shut down; is that right?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And just to get a quick picture. When would the day start? What

25 time would you -- would the day start for you when you were in there?

1 A. The day would also begin at 5.00 a.m. These troops would come

2 into the camp and yell. As soon as they yelled, we all had to jump up,

3 and no one was allowed to continue lying down. Since the toilets were

4 outside of the stables, we would normally line up and then ten by ten

5 inmates would go to the toilet. And when they came back, the other ten

6 would go. So this started at 5.00 a.m.

7 After that, we had breakfast. And then again one stable would go

8 first and then the next one and so on. We would all line up. And that

9 continued until some 3.00. And then we would go back into the stables.

10 And since most of the inmates went out to work, then they would also

11 select those who would go out to work and those who would remain in the

12 camp. So there was activity going on all day long.

13 Q. Okay. Now let's talk about how you came to be released from

14 Manjaca. Do you remember when that was?

15 A. On November 15th all of those who were above 50 and those who were

16 younger than 18 were released.

17 Q. And what happened? Tell me how you were released and where you

18 went.

19 A. Five or six days prior to release -- and even before that it was

20 rumoured that we would be released because the Red Cross was looking for a

21 third country that would take us in. So some five or six days before the

22 release, they told me to go to a room where supposedly an officer wanted

23 to talk to me. So I went there, and he talked to me, and he said since I

24 was older than 50, I would be released on November 15th. He said it had

25 been decided that those who were above 50 and those younger than 18 should

1 be released. And since I satisfied the requirements, he told me I would

2 be released.

3 Q. And then you were released and you went on a bus convoy, I

4 believe; is that right?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And where did you go? Where were you released to? Where was the

7 end destination after you got out of Manjaca?

8 A. There was a holding centre in Karlovac in Croatia, and all of us

9 went there.

10 Q. Now, before we finish, I want to go back -- you've talked about

11 what happened to you after May 27th when you were arrested all the way up

12 through November. And I just want to talk a little bit about what

13 happened to your property and to the other members of your family. At the

14 time in May 1992 - correct me if I'm wrong - but you owned two -- your

15 home in Sanski Most, two dentist practices, a goldsmith shop, a holiday

16 home or cabin nearby in Sanski Most, and a sort of farm. What happened to

17 that property? I don't need to know in a lot of detail, but was any of

18 that property intact when you returned in 1995?

19 A. Everything was looted and destroyed. I didn't find anything.

20 Q. Did you ever hear what had happened to your home, how it had been

21 destroyed?

22 A. The same day I was taken away, at 1.00 they came to get my wife

23 and my children at 4.00, and not only them. They went door to door and

24 took people out. Men were separated from women. So my house was deserted

25 that same day I was arrested. A neighbour remained there by accident and

1 saw that a truck came in with a trailer, and she saw the soldiers carry

2 out the equipment in my dental practice and all other valuable things.

3 She heard that they threw a grenade on my house so that everything was

4 destroyed. I had a Mercedes which was of a great interest to officers and

5 soldiers. And in addition to that, they took everything else of value.

6 Q. In short, all of your property was taken or destroyed after you

7 were arrested in May 1992; is that correct?

8 A. Everything was looted and destroyed. So I didn't find anything

9 intact. Everything was ruined.

10 Q. Now, you told us earlier that the morning that you were arrested

11 your son Haris during a lull in the shelling set off to take his

12 girlfriend home; is that right?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Could you tell me what happened to Haris, your son, after that,

15 please.

16 A. Since the shelling started again at 11.00, he hadn't come back by

17 then. I was taken away at 1.00 and then my two other sons, Nedim and Edin

18 together with my wife, were evicted from the house. Since Haris was at

19 his girlfriend's house, he was taken away from there.

20 Q. And was he taken to the sports hall? Is that your

21 understanding -- in Sanski Most?

22 A. I think he was taken to the sports hall. But shortly thereafter

23 he was taken to the high school in Kljucka Ulica, where there was also a

24 gym there. I think he also spent two days in Betonirka. And then on the

25 6th of June he was taken to Manjaca in the first group that went there.

1 Q. What happened to your son Haris Biscevic on the 6th of June when

2 he went to Manjaca?

3 A. The first group of inmates was taken to Manjaca then. As they

4 came out of the vehicle, the soldiers would beat them. In the meantime,

5 six people's names were called out, and they were told to go back into a

6 truck. My son Haris Biscevic was among those six. They boarded them into

7 a truck, beaten up as they were, and they drove them somewhere and we

8 haven't had any information to this day.

9 Q. Now, your other two sons, Edin and Nedim are twins. They're

10 twins.

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Could you just tell me briefly what you know. What happened to

13 the twins on that same day that you were arrested in May 1992?

14 A. I was arrested at 1.00. They were taken away at 4.00 together

15 with my wife. My wife was told to go to one side, and they, the boys,

16 were taken to the sports hall together with all the men from our

17 neighbourhood. They remained in the sports hall. And then on the 6th of

18 June, the day Haris was taken away, one of the twins was taken away as

19 well, Nedim, whereas Edin remained in the sports hall.

20 Q. Now, do you know what became of Edin, who was -- who stayed in the

21 sports hall?

22 A. Edin, who remained in the sports hall, stayed there until July 7th

23 and then the camp in the sports hall was closed down, so that all of those

24 who were in the Krings factory, in Betonirka, and in the sports hall were

25 loaded into trucks and taken to Manjaca.

1 Q. Please continue.

2 A. Since there were many Muslims and Croats there, I think that they

3 used three 10-metre long trucks and they boarded everyone who remained in

4 the sports hall onto them. The fourth truck had a canvas tarpaulin and

5 that truck was driven to Betonirka where there were four or five Muslims

6 and Croats that were beaten daily. People were beaten there around the

7 clock, all day long, all night long, every day. In addition to officers

8 who beat them --

9 Q. I understand that you're talking about this as some background.

10 But what I really want, if you can, is to tell me what you know happened

11 directly with your son, Edin, at Manjaca.

12 A. This is an introduction so that you would get a clearer picture of

13 what happened to my son. Since that was the month of July, it was

14 terribly hot and the beating in Betonirka was around the clock. These

15 people, some 60 people, who were totally exhausted were boarded onto one

16 truck which was covered with a canvas tarpaulin, basically hermetically

17 sealed, and there were perhaps a few canisters with water there. In

18 addition to that, one of the trucks had a flat tire, so they had to spend

19 more time in the sun, the inmates. And as they travelled to Manjaca,

20 they died, one by one, for lack of air. Once they got to Manjaca, there

21 were 18 dead people on that truck and 4 who still had -- showed some signs

22 of life. Once they got to Manjaca, they got off the trucks and they

23 started calling out the names. And as they called out the names, nobody

24 got off that truck, so they peeked inside to see why was nobody getting

25 off and they saw a lot of dead bodies there. They panicked and then they

1 called for Dr. Meho Sabanovic to come urgently. The commander rushed to

2 that spot as well. And then when the guards saw what had happened, they

3 started yelling, "Is there anybody here with medical background who can

4 help these people?" So my son Edin, who was in another truck and had

5 travelled with plenty of air, volunteered, as a person with medical

6 experience, and another man did as well. They tried to provide first aid

7 to these people, threw water on them, gave them artificial breathing, but

8 that didn't help much. The commander came and said, "I am not -- I will

9 not accept any dead inmates. Take them away." So they loaded those 18

10 bodies onto the truck together with those four that had recovered in the

11 meantime. And my son boarded that bus as well. They gave him a 20-litre

12 canister of water to use it and sprinkle it on those people if they needed

13 it. Some three or four months ago we found in Sanski Most 18 of those

14 dead bodies, and my son's body was not there together with the body of --

15 bodies of other five people that got onto that truck. I don't know what

16 happened to them. And if this Tribunal or anybody else, including

17 Mr. Talic, can help us find them, I would be very grateful for that.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: [Microphone not activated] Any further questions,

19 Mr. Nicholls?

20 MR. NICHOLLS: Briefly, yes, Your Honour.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Biscevic, do you want a break?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: If at any time you need a break, let me know,

24 please.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, but not right

1 now.

2 MR. NICHOLLS:

3 Q. Now, your third son, Nedim, he still lives and works with you in

4 Sanski Most today. He was also taken to Manjaca. But my understanding is

5 that he was released from there before you arrived at the end of August so

6 that you did not see him there; is that correct?

7 A. Yes, that's correct.

8 Q. And when you arrived here the other day, you told me that he had

9 been able to be released and that a family connection in Banja Luka had

10 been able to obtain his release; is that correct?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Now, could you very briefly describe to the Chamber who this

13 person was who had your son released and how they were able to accomplish

14 that.

15 A. My sister's daughter-in-law is an engineer. She worked in a

16 bureau in which Nino Granic worked. He was also an engineer -- a civil

17 engineer. Nino Granic -- could you please tell me the name again --

18 the -- of the SAO Krajina, the Autonomous Region of Krajina.

19 Q. Well, rather than do that, let me show you the document.

20 MR. NICHOLLS: Denise, this is ERN 01329897, which will be P832.

21 There's also a draft translation which we've prepared that does

22 not have an ERN number.

23 Q. Now, do you recognise that document which you've been provided

24 with?

25 A. Yes. It's a document that my son gave me when I came here. He

1 had it on him. He was keeping it. This document shows that on the 20th

2 of June, my son was released by Vojo Kupresanin from the Manjaca camp.

3 Q. I think if you look up at the date, it may not be clear on the

4 copy you have. Is not the date on the top left-hand corner the 26th of

5 August, 1992?

6 A. Yes. I got -- on the 27th of August, and my son was released a

7 day before I arrived there, on the 26th of August. That's -- that date is

8 correct.

9 Q. And then quickly, after your son was released based on this order,

10 he was given this document in Banja Luka for his own protection to show

11 his status, that he had been legally -- or that he had been officially

12 released?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And you were given this just before you travelled here for your

15 testimony.

16 A. Yes. My son gave it to me.

17 MR. NICHOLLS: Now if Mr. Biscevic could be provided with the last

18 exhibit. That's the Red Cross handover certificate, ERN 01329898.

19 Q. This is a document which your son was given to certify his

20 transfer from Banja Luka to Zagreb in December 1992; is that right?

21 A. Yes, that's right.

22 Q. Now, between his -- between Nedim's release from Manjaca the day

23 before you arrived in August 1992 and December 1992 where did he stay in

24 Banja Luka? Where did he live during that time?

25 A. He stayed at my sister's in Banja Luka, privately with my sister

1 in Banja Luka.

2 Q. And then after he was -- at some point after he was transferred to

3 Zagreb, you were able to reunite with your son Nedim and with your wife

4 and live together again.

5 A. Yes. Since we have a house in Zadar, he came from Zadar and we

6 lived -- we carried on living together.

7 Q. Then in 1995 you all returned to Sanski Most and started over

8 again.

9 A. Yes.

10 MR. NICHOLLS: I don't have any further questions, Your Honour.

11 Thank you.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Before I -- we start with the

13 cross-examination. When you were shown Exhibit P832, which is the

14 document which your son Nedim got when he was released from Manjaca, you

15 said that he -- this document shows that he was released by Vojo

16 Kupresanin. Could you, the usher, show him the document again, please.

17 Could you explain to the Chamber why you said that he was released

18 by Vojo Kupresanin. I know that at the bottom -- the bottom of the page

19 it says "Received by Vojo Kupresanin and handed over by commission

20 composed of three persons." Do you know the events of that day when your

21 son was actually released? Does this document mean -- this document mean

22 that Vojo Kupresanin went there in person and took possession of your

23 son?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Can I answer that question?

25 JUDGE AGIUS: I'm putting the question to you, yes.

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My sister's daughter-in-law is a

2 civil engineer, Nino Granic was my sister's director in that company, and

3 he knew me personally because I was also involved in agriculture and he

4 was interested in this area, so he knew me. And Vojo Kupresanin and Nino

5 Granic are related. They have the same father or the same mother, so that

6 Nino Granic, who was persuaded by my daughter-in-law, asked Vojo

7 Kupresanin to release my son. That was the private connection which

8 resulted with the release -- which resulted in the release of my son.

9 They went to fetch my son in Manjaca. They took him away in a

10 private car. They took him to Banja Luka. And they handed him -- they

11 took him to my sister's house and handed him over to my sister there.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Thank you.

13 Who is going first?

14 MR. ZECEVIC: I am, Your Honour.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. You have the option of starting now but

16 knowing that we will break in 12, 13 minutes' time or breaking now and

17 starting immediately after the break. It's your option.

18 MR. ZECEVIC: It is completely the same to me.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay.

20 MR. ZECEVIC: Your Honours, I can start right now and --

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Then you can start now.

22 Mr. Ackerman.

23 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I don't know if you want to clarify

24 the answer to your own question. But the answer was: "They went to fetch

25 my son. They took him away in a private car."

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Mm-hm.

2 MR. ACKERMAN: I don't think we know who "they" are.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: I understood that it was Vojo Kupresanin and

4 Granic. That's how I understood it.

5 If I am not understanding you well, please, sir, do tell us.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You understood me well. That's what

7 happened. Vojo Kupresanin and Granic took my son to Banja Luka in a

8 private car and handed him over to my sister.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

10 Now, Mr. Biscevic, I need to explain to you very briefly that

11 according to our Rules of Procedure you now will be cross-examined by the

12 Defence teams. The first cross-examination is that by the Defence team

13 for General Talic.

14 Cross-examined by Mr. Zecevic:

15 Q. [Interpretation] Good day, Mr. Biscevic. My name is Slobodan

16 Zecevic. I will ask you a few questions with regard to the statement you

17 gave or with regard to your testimony before the Trial Chamber here.

18 Mr. Biscevic, if at any time you would like a break, please tell

19 me.

20 A. That's no problem. Just you go ahead.

21 Q. Mr. Biscevic, you were the President of the Sanski Most SDA and

22 you had a one-year term of office.

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. After that you became a member of the executive committee of the

25 SDA.

1 A. Yes. And I was a member of the main board and later on I was also

2 a member of the main board. I was a member of the main board during that

3 term of office. As I was -- I held that capacity, I was a member of the

4 main board and I was presiding in the assembly.

5 Q. I just want to ask you to make a pause, because we both speak the

6 same language. So could you just provide short answers if possible, yes

7 or no, in order to make things as short as possible, because I have an

8 entire series of questions to put to you. So could you please pause after

9 the question for the sake of the interpreters.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: [Microphone not activated] And that applies to you

11 as well, Mr. Zecevic. When he finishes his answer, please don't just --

12 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Your Honour, please.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Mr. Interpreter, I just said that that applies

14 to Mr. Zecevic as well. It's important that he doesn't jump in straight

15 away with his next question immediately after the witness has finished

16 answering the previous one.

17 MR. ZECEVIC: I'm completely aware of that, Your Honours. It was

18 just the instruction to the witness.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: I'm glad you are.

20 MR. ZECEVIC: I was trying to be helpful to the Trial Chamber.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you, Mr. Zecevic.

22 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. Mr. Biscevic, given that you carried out these responsibilities

24 within the SDA party in Sanski Most. You are certainly aware of the

25 fact -- the international [As translated] situation was deteriorating in

1 the -- in the 1990s in the town.

2 A. When I became the president, the relations between the three

3 peoples, the Croats, the Muslims, and the Serbs, there were no problems.

4 Everything was quite normal.

5 Q. You became president immediately after the elections in 1990;

6 isn't that correct?

7 A. Yes. In August 1990.

8 Q. That means up until August 1991 there were no problems.

9 A. Initially, at the beginning.

10 Q. So in the course of 1991, you could already see that there were

11 certain problems.

12 A. Not at the beginning.

13 Q. Tell me, this inter-ethnic situation, it was deteriorating

14 throughout Bosnia-Herzegovina as a result of the overall situation in the

15 former Yugoslavia.

16 A. Yes. Yes.

17 Q. Yesterday you told us on page 53 of the unofficial transcript --

18 MR. ZECEVIC: I'm sorry, Your Honour.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Just for the record, Judge Taya has brought my

20 attention to what appears in the transcript -- the international situation

21 was deteriorating. You said the inter-ethnical. So for the record, it

22 should be inter-ethnic situation and not international situation. Thank

23 you.

24 Thank you, Judge Taya.

25 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you, Your Honours.

1 Q. [Interpretation] Yesterday while you were giving your testimony

2 you told us that the war which started in Croatia in 1991 made the

3 situation worse to a large extent.

4 A. Not at the beginning, because at the beginning when they were

5 calling up reserve forces, Rasula Nedeljko and Tunic Ante we went to calm

6 the soldiers down because the Muslims and the Croats refused to respond to

7 those call-up papers. They didn't want to go to Croatia from Sanski Most.

8 So we tried there to sort this out. We went with official vehicles. We

9 went to visit the soldiers, and we spoke to them. This is what happened

10 at the beginning.

11 Q. If I have understood you correctly, in -- when you were giving

12 your testimony yesterday you said that the position of the SDA party was

13 that reservists, even if they had been called to join the army, the

14 position was that they shouldn't respond to those call-up papers.

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. At the time that was contrary to the regulations which were in

17 force.

18 A. Yes. To the regulations of the JNA, the Yugoslav People's Army.

19 Q. I just want to clarify something. We are assuming that these are

20 the federal regulations of the Socialist Federative Republic of Yugoslavia

21 and of the Socialist Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

22 Q. The JNA sent the call-up papers, not the Yugoslav state. The

23 Yugoslav People's Army sent out these call-up papers.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: [Microphone not activated]

25 A. Microphone, please.

1 JUDGE AGIUS: May I remind you again, sir, to allow a pause after

2 Mr. Zecevic finishes his question, because you are jumping in -- you are

3 anticipating the rest of the question. You start answering it even before

4 he's finished the question. And that's causing a lot of problems to the

5 interpreters. They are giving me signs from everywhere. Thank you.

6 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

7 Q. [Interpretation] When I say "the regulations," I'm referring to

8 the laws in the sense that not responding to call-up papers was a crime in

9 the former Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia. Isn't that correct?

10 A. Yes, it is.

11 Q. Could you tell me -- yesterday you told us in the course of your

12 testimony on page 58, line 22 to 25 you said that not only -- not only was

13 the SDA's position that soldiers should not respond to the call-up but you

14 said that you even prohibited people from responding to these call-up

15 papers.

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Tell me, after that a certain decision was found, according to

18 which those people who failed to respond and did so voluntarily -- those

19 people who did not respond to the call-up papers, they were told that they

20 had to return uniforms and all weapons that had been issued to them.

21 A. That was a plan of the JNA. They didn't say by accident that they

22 should surrender their weapons and their uniforms. This was not done

23 accidentally.

24 Q. I would just like to clarify one matter. The people I'm talking

25 about received call-up papers; isn't that correct?

1 A. Yes, it is.

2 Q. They consciously refused to respond to those call-up papers; isn't

3 that correct?

4 A. Yes. They refused to respond to the JNA.

5 Q. Although in their military booklets -- according to their military

6 booklets they were members, official members, of the reserve forces of the

7 JNA.

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Given that they did so quite consciously, the army instead of

10 initiating proceedings against them simply decided to order them to return

11 their weapons -- to return their uniforms and the weapons that had been

12 issued to them.

13 A. The call-up papers that members of the Muslim people got had been

14 in the JNA. But in such a case they went to Croatia. They were on the

15 front line. And they would be returned to the Sanski Most in boxes.

16 That's why we said, "Don't respond to the call-up. But if necessary be in

17 Sanski Most and if necessary protect your homes. Don't worry about

18 Yugoslavia." You know what the situation was in Yugoslavia at the time.

19 Q. We are now talking about 1991.

20 A. 1991, that's right. We have six or seven -- you can see that at

21 the cemetery -- people who died in the JNA at the time, and they were not

22 to blame for anything. It's just because they had ugly names. They were

23 shot in the back.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's stop here, Mr. Zecevic. We'll continue at

25 5.30. Thank you.

1 --- Recess taken at 5.14 p.m.

2 --- On resuming at 5.32 p.m.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: I recognise Mr. Koumjian. Thank you.

4 MR. KOUMJIAN: Thank you. Very quickly, Your Honour, I just want

5 to convey a scheduling request from Ms. Korner.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.

7 MR. KOUMJIAN: She wanted to know if it's possible for this court

8 to switch --

9 JUDGE AGIUS: To sit on Saturday? Yes.

10 MR. KOUMJIAN: Monday morning instead of Monday afternoon. The --

11 and switch with Judge -- with the Stakic case. And Judge Schomburg

12 indicated that that Trial Chamber had no problem with it. The reason

13 being, her plan would be to have the witness, Mr. McLeod, finish his

14 testimony here on Monday morning in this trial and then start testifying

15 in Stakic in the afternoon.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Monday is what -- the 21st is Friday. No? The

17 24th. The 24th. The 24th we're sitting in the afternoon. And you --

18 Stakic is sitting in the morning.

19 MR. KOUMJIAN: Yes. And her request would be to switch, if that's

20 agreeable with --

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's check with the Defence first.

22 MR. ZECEVIC: Your Honours, unfortunately we explained to our

23 learned colleagues that this is not acceptable for us, because I myself

24 and my colleague Ms. Natasha Ivanovic-Fauveau, we have some private things

25 to attend and -- which were planned before in advance for Monday morning.

1 So unfortunately we really cannot. Thank you.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Ackerman.

3 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, if they're not going to be here, it doesn't

4 make much sense for me to be here.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: So I suppose you have your answer, Mr. Koumjian.

6 And I think the witness has to testify first in -- in Stakic, as I see it,

7 then continue here. Or else --

8 MR. KOUMJIAN: We'll do our best.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Anyway, I mean, just convey the message to

10 Ms. Korner and then -- I'm sure that you'll find a way. Either we -- if

11 at all. I mean, we won't start with his evidence on Friday. I don't

12 know. I mean, perhaps you can make an arrangement with Judge Schomburg in

13 Stakic to start on Friday, perhaps rather than on Monday having

14 finished -- we could do that. I don't know.

15 Now, Mr. Biscevic, you are a professional man and I am sure you

16 are pretty much -- you are highly intelligent. I can notice that. And

17 being highly intelligent, you would have noticed straight away that I

18 decided to go to a break when I did because I was sensing that you were

19 reacting in a way to the series of questions that Mr. Zecevic was putting

20 to you which was likely to lead you -- you and him into a head-on

21 collision. I know that you are going to understand me perfectly well in

22 what I'm going to tell you. Mr. Zecevic here, like all the other Defence

23 lawyer, have got a duty to accomplish here. Their duty is to defend their

24 clients. Their duty also is to help this Trial Chamber in its search for

25 the truth. But in doing that, they have a duty towards their client.

1 In the course of their cross-examination, I am sure that there

2 will be moments when they will put questions to you which will not render

3 your role here as a witness or your testimony any easier than you would

4 have expected it to be. I am sure that you will understand that we cannot

5 allow a situation to obtain in which you start arguing or raising your

6 voice -- neither you or him, nor anyone else. No one is going to be

7 allowed to do that. But please try to understand that they are doing

8 their duty and they have an interest to defend their clients. And when

9 they put a question to you, try to answer that question in a -- in a -- a

10 civilised way, as I am sure you as a professional are -- you are trained

11 to do.

12 With that, Mr. Zecevic, please continue. And I also appeal to you

13 to be considerate in the questions that you put to the witness.

14 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you, Your Honour. Of course I will.

15 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Biscevic, we left it off at a point where you

16 mentioned to us that six to seven people who were killed and buried were

17 killed while they were members of the JNA; isn't that right?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Did you know these people?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Can you give us some names, if you remember.

22 A. Pasakada. He was an active officer in the JNA. He was buried

23 in Sanski Most, and his mother when she asked her Serb neighbours while

24 Sanski Most was liberated where were you escaping, she got a bullet in her

25 forehead. She was killed by the officers of that same JNA. This is how

1 they expressed their gratitude to her. And if you wish, I can take you to

2 the cemetery to see what it says on her tombstone.

3 Q. Mr. Biscevic, I simply asked you to give us some names if you

4 remembered them.

5 A. Yes. I told you. Pasakada was the mother's name. I forgot

6 this young man's name. I had many patients, and I cannot remember all of

7 their names, but he's buried in Sanski Most on the cemetery there.

8 Q. So this was an active officer of the JNA.

9 A. Yes, of the Yugoslav People's Army.

10 Q. So we are not talking about reservists here.

11 A. No. We're talking about active soldiers.

12 Q. So other than this one active officer, you cannot remember any

13 other names?

14 A. Well, if you insist, I can get the names for you.

15 Q. Mr. Biscevic, you probably know that everything that had to do

16 with recruitment, mobilisation, and other personal matters of reservists

17 and conscripts was done by the municipal secretariats of national defence

18 all over the former Yugoslavia; isn't that right?

19 A. Yes. Yes.

20 Q. That means that these municipal secretariats existed within

21 municipalities; isn't that right?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Please tell me -- there were such fellow citizens of yours who

24 responded to call-up papers, to mobilisation; isn't that right?

25 A. Yes, there were such Muslims.

1 Q. And they would come back home from the front and bring with them a

2 part of that war atmosphere; isn't that right?

3 A. Well, the Serb army wasn't interested in them.

4 Q. I would ask you to please answer my question. I asked you the

5 following: When these people came back home for their leave, when they

6 came home from the front, they would bring with them a part of that war

7 atmosphere. They would bring it back to Sanski Most.

8 A. Well, yes, they would come home, take a bath, take a rest.

9 Q. You told us yesterday that these people would come back, bring

10 weapons from the front with them, and they would get drunk and cavort in

11 Sanski Most; isn't that right?

12 A. Well, yes, that was typical. Most of them did that.

13 Q. And you told us yesterday that that led to some incidents in

14 Sanski Most.

15 A. Yes, absolutely.

16 Q. You also told us that the police in Sanski Most investigated these

17 incidents but failed to find the perpetrators as a result of which you

18 proposed that joint patrols be established.

19 A. Yes, in the beginning. After that the army felt very strong and

20 neglected everybody else, ignored everybody else.

21 Q. We are now referring to 1991; is that right?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Can you tell me, please, Mr. Biscevic, isn't it true that the SDA

24 organised on its own initiative a -- patrols of single ethnicity that

25 patrolled Mahala, the Muslim neighbourhood?

1 A. Yes, it was a Muslim neighbourhood.

2 Q. Tell me, please. Mahala is a part of Sanski Most, isn't it?

3 A. Yes, yes.

4 Q. These patrols consisting of only one ethnicity, were members of

5 these patrols also members of the SDA?

6 A. No.

7 Q. But they were all Muslims; isn't that right?

8 A. Well, naturally, since this was a purely Muslim neighbourhood.

9 Q. Were these patrols armed?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Tell me please, in that period of time all the way until the end

12 of 1991 the police in Sanski Most wasn't of a single ethnicity, was it?

13 A. Well, until the end of May, it was a mixed police force. And

14 thereafter it was a Serb police.

15 Q. So until May 1992 there was mixed police in Sanski Most.

16 A. Well, the ratio was 80:15.

17 Q. Thank you. Tell me, please, you had meetings then at the city

18 level and the municipal level trying to came down the situation and

19 prevent it from escalating.

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And you didn't succeed much, did you?

22 A. Not at all.

23 Q. You told us yesterday that it was mostly non-Serb property that

24 was destroyed.

25 A. Yes, a hundred per cent so.

1 Q. Do you remember that on April 14, 1992 a bomb was thrown on a Serb

2 cafe?

3 A. Yes. And it was done by Serbs. It was done by the son of Lazic

4 Mico. He was not a loyal Serb, so Serbs did this to him in order to

5 make him loyal.

6 Q. Yes. But at any rate, the Serb property was destroyed.

7 A. It was proven later who was behind this, who threw the bomb.

8 Q. Well, was that established by the police, what you're telling us

9 now, or somebody else?

10 A. By us, politicians. And when we were in a meeting, we told them,

11 "Well, look what had happened."

12 JUDGE AGIUS: [Microphone not activated] Please allow a pause.

13 Because again you're jumping in straight away with your answer.

14 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

15 Q. [Interpretation] Can you tell me, was there a proceeding

16 instigated as a result of that?

17 A. We asked that that be done, but there was no result. We were not

18 able to establish who was to blame for this.

19 Q. So in this particular case, when a bomb had been thrown on a cafe

20 owned by a Serb, you, the politicians, knew who was the perpetrator.

21 A. Yes. Because they had an argument among themselves, and then they

22 revealed who it was.

23 Q. So you reported that to the police but nothing was done about it.

24 A. Once they found out who was the perpetrator, nothing was done

25 about it.

1 Q. And all other incidents in which Croat and Muslim property was

2 damaged, even you politicians didn't know anything about it.

3 A. Well, we knew everything, but there was nothing we could do. We

4 knew that Medini and Njunja went through the town every night. That they

5 were doing whatever they wanted. We knew that, but there was nothing we

6 could do. All of our talk was in vain, because people saw him at night

7 walking around and throwing bombs. My son personally saw the white

8 Mercedes from which a bomb was launched, but nothing.

9 Q. What I'm asking you about, is whether these facts that you are

10 revealing here today were available to the police at the time.

11 A. There was nothing done about it. It was no use.

12 Q. So the police that was in charge of maintaining law and order in

13 Sanski Most did nothing regarding these incidents.

14 A. Well, if they considered that something ought to be done, then

15 they did their job perfectly well. In the other cases, they did nothing.

16 Q. You mentioned a person called Njunja. You probably know of a

17 paramilitary formation of which he was a commander, the SOS.

18 A. The SOS was established in Sanski Most later on, and Njunja was

19 the president of it. And later on a bomb was put under his vehicle, under

20 his car, and he was blown together with the car.

21 Q. Now, let us go back to the issue of mobilisation. Since the

22 position was that the Muslims did not respond to call-up papers, which was

23 against the mandatory legal regulations, that at the same time meant that

24 they did not become members of the Territorial Defence because they failed

25 to respond to these call-up papers as well.

1 A. Well, we said loud and clear that if the call-up papers was for

2 the municipality of Sanski Most, then it was okay to respond. However, if

3 it was for the front in Croatia, then it was not.

4 Q. Out of these people who consciously failed to respond to call-up

5 papers, they had to surrender their weapons and uniforms; isn't that

6 right?

7 A. Yes. They had to return the weapons and uniforms they had been

8 issued with.

9 Q. And these weapons, as you told us, were stored in the Sanski Most

10 SUP; is that right?

11 A. Yes. There was a military office in the SUP.

12 Q. And this storing of weapons -- of returned weapons started in

13 1991, didn't it?

14 A. No. In 1992. Not in 1991.

15 Q. And can you tell me, please, was this warehouse secured by the

16 police? Do you know about that?

17 A. I know that the son of Mico Lazic came to see me, the one whose

18 cafe was bombed, because he had not been active from the very beginning.

19 He came in a truck to my house and he confiscated the weapons from the

20 neighbourhood and he took it to the military office. We did not receive

21 any kind of receipt or any kind of explanation for this.

22 Q. I didn't ask you about your civilian weapons that you had. I was

23 talking about the weapons that was seized from the military conscripts.

24 A. Well, yes, they had to turn it to the military over and a record

25 was made of it.

1 Q. You told us yesterday that those weapons were stored in the SUP.

2 A. Yes. There were two buildings, one was the Territorial Defence

3 and one was SUP.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: [Previous translation continues] ... to remind you

5 every -- every five minutes.

6 MR. ZECEVIC: I'm sorry.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: You didn't let him finish his question.

8 So Mr. Zecevic, please repeat your question, and then I'm sure

9 Mr. Biscevic will allow the pause that I have been recommending and

10 answered.

11 Your question had --

12 MR. ZECEVIC: Yes. Just a second.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: You told us yesterday that these -- that those

14 weapons were stored in the SUP. And you were stopped there by the

15 witness.

16 MR. ZECEVIC: Yes.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't know what you were going to ask him.

18 MR. ZECEVIC: Well, actually --

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Presumably, because earlier on you have put a

20 question whether it was secured by the police -- whether the warehouse was

21 secured by the police or not, whether the witness knew. And he answered

22 you -- gave you an answer which has nothing to do exactly with the

23 question which you -- which you had put.

24 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. Please tell me -- Mr. Biscevic, we need to clarify this. These

1 weapons were stored in the SUP building, and that building was shared by

2 the SUP and the municipal Secretariat for People's Defence. Isn't that

3 right?

4 A. Yes.

5 MR. ZECEVIC: Does this satisfy the requirement by the Honourable

6 Trial Chamber because your --

7 JUDGE AGIUS: [Microphone not activated]

8 MR. ZECEVIC: No. But again --

9 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Before you answer, let him finish. Make sure that

11 there is enough -- sufficient interval of time so that the -- because I

12 don't understand your language and the other two Judges don't understand

13 your language and the Prosecutors don't understand your language. So we

14 have to wait for the interpreters -- not to mention Mr. Ackerman, who

15 doesn't also understand the language. So we have to wait until there is a

16 translation, an interpretation, which sometimes isn't finished when you

17 have already started answering the question. This is why I'm stopping you

18 every -- every so often, because otherwise we -- it creates problems for

19 everyone.

20 Yes. But he did answer your question.

21 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you.

22 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Biscevic, the municipal Secretariat for

23 National Defence is a civilian body, isn't it?

24 A. In the beginning, it was.

25 Q. When you say "at the beginning," what do you have in mind?

1 A. When the 6th Krajina Brigade came to Sanski Most, Mr. Basara took

2 everything into his hands. The Territorial Defence, led by a Serb for

3 many years, was given to us, to the Muslims a few months prior to that,

4 and that Muslim who headed the Territorial Defence ended up in Manjaca.

5 So you can see how much power he had.

6 Q. So according to you, all the way until the 6th Krajina Brigade

7 came, that was a civilian body; isn't that right?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Was the state of war ever proclaimed in Bosnia and Herzegovina?

10 A. I don't know.

11 Q. At the time when the 6th Krajina Brigade came, was the state of

12 war proclaimed?

13 A. It was said then that the army was the guarantor of peace between

14 Muslims, Croats, and Serbs, that we politicians can bicker all we want but

15 that the army came in as a guarantor of peace and would not allow any harm

16 to happen to anyone.

17 Q. You told us yesterday on page 56 of the unofficial transcript,

18 line 2 and 3, that you met Colonel Basara when he came to Sanski Most

19 together with the 6th Krajina Brigade and that was sometime in March of

20 1992; isn't that right?

21 A. Yes. That's when Mr. Basara came to a meeting in the municipality

22 and he said that he had come with his army to take a rest there and to get

23 acquainted with us and promised that we would be in constant contact and

24 we would solve all the problems that arose, that we politicians could do

25 what we wanted but that the army would be the guarantor of peace.

1 MR. ZECEVIC: [Previous translation continues] ... the document

2 P608, 608.

3 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Biscevic, I'm about to show you a document

4 which is an order of the 5th Corps command dated April 1, 1992. Did you

5 take a look at it?

6 A. Well, I didn't get a chance to read it.

7 Q. Can you start reading, please, item 2, which starts with the words

8 "After the march." That's item one. Could you please read that for us.

9 A. Yes. "After the march deploy the unit in Sanski Most Kamengrad

10 village, Dabar village, Tomina village. The area with the following

11 tasks, achieving full control of the territory, preventing inter-ethnic

12 conflicts, setting up road blocks, and securing features of special

13 importance. Establish full cooperation with the organs of government in

14 Sanski Most municipality and collaboration with TO and police units."

15 Q. Thank you. Please now can you take a look at the second page. It

16 says that -- it was signed by Momir Talic; isn't that right?

17 A. Yes, that's right.

18 Q. Thank you. You can see on this document that it is dated April 1,

19 1992.

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Thank you.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: [Previous translation continues] ... Judge Janu is

23 rightly pointing out. You did not --

24 MR. ZECEVIC: Pose the question.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.

1 MR. ZECEVIC: Well, because there is another document which is

2 only similar. I will pose the documents afterwards.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Afterwards -- afterwards, yes.

4 MR. ZECEVIC: With the permission of the Trial Chamber.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, go ahead.

6 MR. ZECEVIC: P609.

7 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Biscevic, you will see that this is a regular

8 combat report issued by the 5th Corps command to the 2nd military district

9 command on the 2nd of April, 1992. I would ask you to read the second

10 paragraph under item 1 [As interpreted], please.

11 A. In the course of the day the 6/10 of the -- the 6th Brigade of the

12 10th Partisan Division has been withdrawn from combat in the Demirovac

13 village, Draksenic village, Josik village area with the aim of preparing

14 and forcing a march during the night of 2nd/3rd April 1992 along the Josik

15 village, Bosanska Dubica village, Prijedor Ostra Luka village, Sanski Most

16 axis and the area of Kamengrad village, Dabar village, Sanski

17 Most Tomina village by 0600 hours on 3rd April 1992.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Is that the paragraph that you wanted him to read?

19 MR. ZECEVIC: Yes. Yes.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Because according to the transcript it says the

21 second paragraph of --

22 MR. ZECEVIC: Under item 2.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Under item 1.

24 MR. ZECEVIC: Under item 2, I said.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Because the transcript -- we'll correct that,

1 at least for the record. Because your question was: I would ask you to

2 read the second paragraph under item 1, please. And he has not read the

3 second paragraph under item 1 presumably because what he read was what you

4 asked him to read.

5 MR. ZECEVIC: Yes, exactly. He understood exactly.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: But for the record we must put it that it's not the

7 paragraph that was put in the transcript.

8 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. Mr. Biscevic, now, could you please read out first paragraph under

10 item 3 in the same document. That's page 3. It starts with the words "I

11 decided."

12 JUDGE AGIUS: It's the next page, usher.

13 MR. ZECEVIC: In the Serbian version, it's the page number 3. And

14 the second page in English.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: It's further down.

16 Usher, it's there. There. We are getting to it. Stop there,

17 please. "I have decided by pulling the --"

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "I have decided by pulling the 6/10

19 part unit out of combat to establish complete control over the broader

20 Sanski Most area and use other forces grouped in the zone of

21 responsibility south of the Sava River to prevent the mounting of

22 barricades on the roads, thus ensuring free flow of traffic, protection of

23 the population, and prevention of inter-ethnic conflict."

24 MR. ZECEVIC:

25 Q. Thank you.

1 A. So you don't want me to read any further?

2 Q. Signed by Commander Major General Momir Talic; isn't that right?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Mr. Biscevic, you saw the dates on these documents.

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. It indicates -- they indicate that the 6th Krajina Brigade came to

7 Sanski Most on the 3rd of April, 1992.

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Do you allow for the possibility that it was indeed in the

10 beginning of April, not in March, as you said?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Thank you. I asked you this because in your statement given to

13 the investigators of the OTP on two occasions in 1997 and two occasions in

14 1999 you said somewhere in those statements that it was even in January or

15 February 1992.

16 A. I could not have said January or February. I might have said

17 March.

18 Q. But at any rate, we agreed that it was most probably on the 3rd of

19 April, 1992; isn't that right?

20 A. Yes. We have established that it was then.

21 Q. Tell me please. These orders, these two documents that you just

22 took a look at and the document that's in front of you right now, are

23 fully in accord with what was told to you by Colonel Basara at one of the

24 meetings when you met him and when he came to a meeting in the

25 municipality; isn't that right?

1 A. Yes.

2 MR. ZECEVIC: [Previous translation continues] ...

3 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Biscevic, the situation in Bosnia and

4 Herzegovina from let's say the beginning of April onwards deteriorated

5 terribly; isn't that correct?

6 A. Yes, it is.

7 Q. There were armed conflicts in Sarajevo in the beginning of April

8 in Sarajevo and then in other places in Bosnia; isn't that right?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. At that time operations in Croatia and in Western Slavonia were

11 still ongoing and geographically this area is quite close to you; isn't

12 that right?

13 A. Yes, it is.

14 Q. Tell me -- let's return to Sanski Most. According to our

15 information, the MUP and the events in the municipality building took

16 place on the 17th of April, 1992. Yesterday you said that it was the 25th

17 or the 26th of April, that it was on those dates. Could you tell us

18 whether it was on the 25th, the 26th, and the 27th or the 17th, 18th, and

19 19th, if you can remember this.

20 A. It was in 1992. And now it's 2002. So I may have got the dates

21 wrong. That's possible. But it happened.

22 Q. Thank you. On that day, when the MUP was divided, you entered the

23 municipality building; isn't that right?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. In addition to the SDA leadership, members of the HDZ leadership

1 from Sanski Most also entered the municipality building; isn't that

2 correct?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And the municipality building was also entered by these policemen

5 who weren't members of -- who weren't of Serbian nationality. They also

6 entered the building together with you.

7 A. As they were forcibly expelled from the SUP, yes, they did.

8 Q. Tell me, some civilians also entered the building. You said that

9 too, didn't you?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Approximately how many people were there in the municipality

12 building, if you can remember?

13 A. I wasn't there that evening. I don't know the number.

14 Q. Tell me, in the course of that period of time, March/April 1992,

15 were there any negotiations between the SDS an SDA leadership so the SDS

16 and the SDA parties, about the division of the Sanski Most municipality?

17 A. Right up until the attack on the municipal assembly we would try

18 to agree every day and we would discuss all current issues.

19 Q. Did you specifically talk about dividing the Sanski Most

20 municipality along ethnic demarcation lines? Do you remember such a

21 thing?

22 A. The SDS made such a request. There was nothing else we could do

23 but sit down and discuss this matter.

24 Q. The SDA party didn't agree with such a proposal.

25 A. No, it didn't.

1 Q. Tell me, in the municipality building the members of the police

2 were armed, weren't they?

3 A. I think that one of them had a rifle.

4 Q. You didn't see any other weapons.

5 A. I wasn't there that evening.

6 Q. Yesterday you told us that on the 19th of April - you didn't say

7 that date exactly, you said the 27th - but it was on that day you said

8 that you left the municipality building and went to your farm. Isn't that

9 right?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. After that you didn't return to the municipality building, did

12 you, that evening?

13 A. Checkpoints had just been set up, and it was impossible to enter

14 that area because soldiers were there and they were manning the

15 checkpoints.

16 Q. Tell me, you subsequently heard that about 2200 hours some sort of

17 projectile had been fired at the municipality building; isn't that right?

18 A. That was probably a sign for a general shooting, because they

19 started shooting from all sorts of weapons all over Sanski Most at that

20 point in time.

21 Q. Immediately prior to that event, did you perhaps hear some sort of

22 exchange of fire? So I mean just before that projectile was fired, if you

23 can remember that.

24 A. I remember very well. That wasn't unusual for us. They were

25 shooting everywhere, all over the place, because people were half drunk

1 and they had as many bullets as they wanted, they could shoot as much as

2 they liked.

3 Q. Since as you say you were not there, did anyone tell you that

4 prior to the projectile being fired, there was a conflict between the

5 police standing in front of the municipality building and certain people

6 who were in the municipality building?

7 A. I don't understand the question.

8 Q. I asked you whether given that you weren't there, as you said, did

9 someone tell you or did you hear from someone that immediately prior to

10 the projectile being fired there was an armed conflict between the police

11 forces standing in front of the building and, let's say, the people who

12 were in the building, in the municipality building?

13 A. I can't answer that question because I wasn't there.

14 Q. I just asked you whether you had heard anything about that. Thank

15 you.

16 On that day, as you said you were on your farm; isn't that right?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. But yesterday you told us that after the SDA leadership had left

19 the municipality building, you said that you went to sleep -- to spend the

20 night in the village of Sehovci; is that right?

21 A. Not I, but the people who were in the municipality building. At

22 the time I was referring to the SDA and HDZ parties, the people who were

23 there.

24 Q. So you personally were not in Sehovci.

25 A. I've already said. At the time, I wasn't there.

1 Q. On the following day, General Talic arrived by helicopter and you

2 didn't attend that meeting, did you?

3 A. No, I didn't.

4 Q. But as far as you were told - and you spoke about this yesterday -

5 he repeated what we just read a minute ago in the order and what Colonel

6 Basara told you at the beginning of April; isn't that correct? That

7 the --

8 A. He also claimed that the JNA was a guarantor of peace in Sanski

9 Most, that they would guarantee the peace between the Serbs, the Muslims,

10 and the Croats. He said that he stood by this claim.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Zecevic.

12 MR. ZECEVIC: Yes.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: The Prosecution would like to raise a matter and

14 requires about five minutes or a little more than that.

15 MR. ZECEVIC: Your Honours, I have just one more question.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, exactly. Sir --

17 MR. ZECEVIC: One more question.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: You have an entire five or six minutes. Whatever.

19 But I want to accommodate you.

20 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you so much.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Whenever it's convenient for you to stop, then

22 stop.

23 MR. ZECEVIC: I actually have one more question on this subject,

24 and then I'm moving to something else. So it would be a perfect place

25 to --

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Thanks, Mr. Zecevic.

2 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. Are you aware of the fact that Mr. Karabeg two days after that

4 meeting with General Talic he spoke to him one more time over the phone?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Thank you. Did he tell you what they discussed, if you can

7 remember? Or perhaps it was the same matter.

8 A. He said that Mr. Talic had guaranteed peace and security, that the

9 attack against Sana was a mistake and he said that it wouldn't be

10 repeated. He said that the situation in the municipality of Sanski Most

11 would be calm. He said there would be no conflict.

12 Q. Thank you, Mr. Biscevic.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. I thank you, Mr. Zecevic.

14 Mr. Biscevic, we have to stop here today and we will continue

15 tomorrow. You will be escorted now again like you were yesterday by the

16 usher. Tomorrow we will resume at 9.00 in the morning, not in the

17 afternoon.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Please -- thank you very much.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Tomorrow we will resume at 9.00 in the morning, not

20 in the afternoon.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

22 [The witness stands down]

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Ms. Korner.

24 MS. KORNER: I think Your Honour must quail with horror at seeing

25 me appear. But it's the question of the witness.

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Not me. Definitely not.

2 MS. KORNER: The witness Charles McLeod. I know it's been raised.

3 I saw -- I was sent an e-mail but I don't think the problems are quite

4 perhaps clear.

5 Your Honour will recall that Mr. McLeod is a businessman we've had

6 some difficulty in getting here. He made time for the three days, the

7 Friday, the Monday, and the Tuesday. He has to be back -- he has to

8 finish on Tuesday because he's got a presentation in connection with his

9 business on the Wednesday in Glasgow.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: That's not far away.

11 MS. KORNER: The unexpected problem that arose today for the first

12 time was that Stakic next week -- it does alternate fortnights apparently

13 is sitting in the morning and not sitting full sessions. On Monday it's

14 only sitting from 10.00 until quarter to 2.00. And Tuesday --

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Wait a minute. Monday is from 10.00 ...

16 MS. KORNER: Until quarter to 2.00.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Mm-hm.

18 MS. KORNER: So it loses an hour. And on Tuesday.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Mm-hm.

20 MS. KORNER: It's sitting between 9.00 and quarter to 1.00, losing

21 another hour.

22 Mr. McLeod as I understand it -- and it may well be in any event

23 that tomorrow's witnesses may go into Friday. Although I have no doubt

24 that he will be short in chief, from what I understood Mr. Ackerman had to

25 say, he may be -- they don't want to be time constrained, and I understand

1 that. The difficulty is, if he's not finished on Friday in this court he

2 can't obviously start his evidence in Stakic in the middle of his evidence

3 here, which is why Judge Schomburg, when the problem was put, said if it

4 was agreeable to this court he would swap the sessions and that way it

5 would -- it would work and they could sit a full session indeed on Monday.

6 I understand that the reason given that Mr. Ackerman doesn't

7 object but that counsel for Mr. -- for General Talic do. And I just

8 wondered if it was purely personal, whether the interests of the Court

9 might not perhaps override it on this occasion. It really will be very

10 difficult to get him back here for further cross-examination if necessary,

11 so that's -- I'm appealing effectively to the good nature of counsel. If

12 it's only personal as opposed to professional, in other words, they have

13 professional reasons.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Well, I don't know. And I will not ask counsel to

15 explain --

16 MS. KORNER: No.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Definitely not. But however, perhaps Mr. Zecevic or

18 Madam Fauveau would like -- if you could perhaps meet -- meet Ms. Korner

19 halfway, I don't know. I mean, it's ...

20 MR. ZECEVIC: Your Honour, I would very much like to -- to help

21 the Prosecutor and this Court as well, but believe me, I don't have any

22 alternative in this respect. That is why I adamantly said that this is

23 not acceptable for me. Because as you know, I jumped into this so to

24 speak trial after only 14 days, and there is so many things that I

25 actually didn't finish but I -- I really would like to -- this is one

1 thing that I cannot postpone.

2 MS. KORNER: All right.

3 MR. ZECEVIC: It is a personal matter, and -- I mean, if my

4 colleague --

5 JUDGE AGIUS: You don't need to explain.

6 MR. ZECEVIC: -- Ms. Fauveau would be --

7 JUDGE AGIUS: The Trial Chamber doesn't want to know.

8 MR. ZECEVIC: Of course. I'm just trying to be helpful. Thank

9 you.

10 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, there are two counsel. That's what I

11 was going to say.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. But --

13 MS. KORNER: I don't know whether Madam Fauveau, if it's purely

14 personal --

15 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] No. But my problem is of a

16 professional nature. As Ms. Korner knows, I work in a -- for an office in

17 Paris and I have certain professional engagements over there. It will be

18 very difficult to accommodate such last-minute changes. It would be very

19 difficult for me to do so.

20 MS. KORNER: All right. Your Honour, I -- perhaps I hoped too

21 much that there might be some meeting here, when it really is a matter of

22 the interests of the court. But --

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. McLeod is arriving when?

24 MS. KORNER: Mr. McLeod is arriving tomorrow evening, quite late

25 on because of his professional commitments. I will call him on Friday. I

1 don't know whether there's a possibility perhaps of starting on Friday a

2 little earlier.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Well, I even offered to start in the morning if you

4 want to --

5 MS. KORNER: The trouble is I need to -- I won't have seen him at

6 all. I can see him quite early. If Your Honours were able to sit perhaps

7 part of the morning and then the rest of the afternoon --

8 JUDGE AGIUS: We could do that.

9 MS. KORNER: -- I'd be very grateful.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: We could do that, if that doesn't cause a problem to

11 the Defence. It's -- because the thing you have to understand, that I am

12 prepared and we are prepared to accommodate each and every one of you, but

13 everyone has rights. So the moment anyone from the Defence says no, we --

14 we can't meet --

15 MS. KORNER: Well -- but, Your Honour, I tell you what. I don't

16 think I need a great deal of time to speak to Mr. McLeod. It's

17 effectively just a question of --

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Because if you could do that --

19 MS. KORNER: If we could perhaps start on Friday at -- because in

20 any event, I anticipate -- because I see Mr. Biscevic is still being

21 cross-examined -- there are two witnesses coming tomorrow that Ms.

22 Richterova is going to call. I anticipate they'll still need to be

23 finishing on --

24 JUDGE AGIUS: On Friday. That's what I thought.

25 MS. KORNER: So if Your Honour -- exactly. And then I can start

1 Mr. McLeod at around 12.00 midday or whatever time ...

2 [Trial Chamber confers]

3 JUDGE AGIUS: So basically let's start from here. You have --

4 after Mr. Biscevic's testimony, you have two witnesses.

5 MS. KORNER: Two -- yes, relatively short.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah. I was given to understand earlier on today

7 that some wishful thinking has suggested that there is a possibility of

8 finishing with both of them tomorrow.

9 MS. KORNER: Yes. I think that -- that really was wishful

10 thinking, I think.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: That's -- would it be appropriate if you start with

12 one tomorrow and try to finish with just that witness and postpone the

13 evidence -- the testimony of the second of these two witnesses till after

14 Monday? Would that cause too much of a problem to the Prosecution?

15 MS. KORNER: No, it wouldn't cause any problem at all.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Because that way you are guaranteed that -- you're

17 guaranteed of starting with Mr. McLeod --

18 MS. KORNER: Absolutely.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: -- straight away --

20 MS. KORNER: Yes.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: -- as early as possible, after having spoken to him,

22 and we can take it up from there. And then Monday -- Friday we can have

23 part -- we can sit part in the morning or the whole day if you want to. I

24 mean, I'm prepared to concede you even that.

25 MS. KORNER: I think --

1 JUDGE AGIUS: But it depends also on the Defence teams. I mean --

2 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I think if we were to sit -- can I ask

3 this, that whatever breaks are required -- the Milosevic trial has been

4 sitting 9.30 till 4.30 with the breaks. If I could ask, say, that we

5 could start at 11.00 on Friday morning with Mr. McLeod. That would give

6 me enough time to speak to him in advance.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Would that be okay with the two Defence teams?

8 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, absolutely,

9 Mr. President.

10 But I have another problem. I spoke to Mr. Ackerman, and

11 we agreed that Mr. Ackerman would start with the cross-examination first.

12 According to what we have agreed on, it's quite clear that I won't be

13 conducting the cross-examination on Friday but on Monday, so I can't

14 prepare it now for -- for Friday. It's impossible. I could be here

15 throughout Friday, but the cross-examination of this witness, I think I --

16 I would like you to agree to allow me to cross-examine this witness on

17 Monday.

18 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I'm very grateful. I mean, that would

19 be the best solution, I think.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah. But Monday, that would be in the afternoon,

21 not in the morning.

22 MS. KORNER: No. That -- yes, that's all right. I can --

23 because --

24 JUDGE AGIUS: He would have finished -- he would have finished his

25 examination-in-chief --

1 MS. KORNER: I would have hoped he could have finished everything

2 if we sit all day Friday. As I say --

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah. But you still have the problem of

4 Madam Fauveau not being prepared to cross-examine him on Friday.

5 MS. KORNER: Oh, well, no, I would ask -- I'm sorry. I missed

6 that. I wasn't listening that carefully.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: That's the whole --

8 MS. KORNER: No. Your Honour, that causes -- the only thing --

9 the only way this can work - sorry, this will work - is if by sitting the

10 lengthier time all cross-examination is completed.

11 Your Honour, today is Wednesday. I -- with the greatest respect,

12 I would have thought that either Mr. Zecevic or Madam Fauveau could have

13 been ready to cross-examine Mr. McLeod - all they've got is one short

14 witness. There's no dispute about the killing - tomorrow -- on Friday.

15 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President --

16 JUDGE AGIUS: [Previous translation continues] ...

17 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes. Obviously I will make

18 an effort. But I have my lead counsel who has just arrived in this case

19 and I have more work now than I had a week ago, and I really don't see how

20 I could prepare for three witnesses in two days.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: This is why I suggested to Ms. Korner -- because

22 sometimes you underestimate that I have passed through these in the past.

23 This is why I suggested to you to forget about the second of these three

24 witnesses.

25 MS. KORNER: I was going to, Your Honour.

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Of these two witnesses, yes.

2 MS. KORNER: Yes.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: And stick to one. That way you don't have to

4 cross-examine the second witness.

5 MS. KORNER: Yes. No. We're going to, Your Honour, yes.

6 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: [Previous translation continues] ...

8 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] But -- yes, obviously.

9 It's already been prepared for and these are witnesses who are -- they're

10 not very lengthy witnesses. I'm sure that you saw the quantity of

11 statements of Witness 7.62. I think there are two --

12 MS. KORNER: [Previous translation continues] ... there's no

13 misunderstanding so that nobody getting bogged down --

14 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] -- two binders.

15 MS. KORNER: [Previous translation continues] ... Charles McLeod's

16 previous transcripts.

17 He has testified twice before but on wholly different areas of

18 Bosnia. The only reason he is being called in this case is to deal with

19 effectively his visit to Manjaca at the end of August and a little bit

20 before he left. That is the only evidence on which -- he's never

21 testified about this before. He kept a diary. Those parts of the diary

22 which are relevant to the evidence he's going to give are quite short.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Anyway, let's -- let's sleep over it and perhaps --

24 MS. KORNER: Yes.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: If you find time, some time tomorrow morning, you

1 can discuss it between yourselves.

2 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, yes. I'm just merely -- the reason I

3 came in - we're still sitting - is -- I should inform Judge Schomburg that

4 there's no change of courts necessary. That's all.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Not for the time being.

6 MS. KORNER: No.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: I mean, not for the time being because it -- if that

8 causes -- changing the schedule causes a problem to any one of the two

9 Defence teams, obviously I have to take that into consideration and that

10 comes first.

11 MS. KORNER: Yes.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay? So we'll take it up again tomorrow morning.

13 MS. KORNER: Thank you very much, Your Honours.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: In the meantime just try to --

15 Yes, Mr. Ackerman.

16 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I may have something to contribute,

17 but I'd prefer to contribute it in the morning after I have a chance look

18 at some things.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. I thank you, Mr. Ackerman. Thank you.

20 [Microphone not activated] So the case stands adjourned till

21 tomorrow morning at 9.00 a.m. -- this courtroom? This courtroom. Thank

22 you.

23 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned

24 at 6.36 p.m., to be reconvened on Thursday,

25 the 20th day of June, 2002, at 9.00 a.m.