1 Friday, 5 July 2002

2 [Open session]

3 [The witness entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 2.19 p.m.

5 [The accused entered court]

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Good afternoon, Madam Registrar. Could you call the

7 case, please.

8 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. This is the case number,

9 IT-99-36-T, the Prosecutor versus Radoslav Brdjanin and Momir Talic.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Brdjanin, good afternoon to you. Can you hear

11 me in a language that you can understand?

12 THE ACCUSED BRDJANIN: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your

13 Honour. I can hear you and understand you.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you.

15 General Talic, good afternoon to you. Can you hear me in a

16 language that you can understand?

17 THE ACCUSED TALIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honour.

18 I can hear in a language I understand.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. You may sit down.

20 Appearances for the Prosecution.

21 MS. RICHTEROVA: Good afternoon. Anna Richterova and Julian

22 Nicholls for the Prosecution, assisted by Denise Gustin.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Good afternoon to you.

24 Appearances for Radoslav Brdjanin.

25 MR. ACKERMAN: Good afternoon, Your Honours. I'm John Ackerman,

1 along with my co-counsel Milan Trbojevic and our assistant Marela

2 Jevtovic.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. And good afternoon to you.

4 Appearances for General Talic.

5 MR. ZECEVIC: Good afternoon, Your Honours. Slobodan Zecevic and

6 Natasha Ivanovic-Fauveau for General Talic.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, and good afternoon to you too.

8 How are you, sir? Are you better -- feeling better?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, thank you. Yes. Thank you.

10 I'm feeling quite well.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. May I ask you to stand up so that you enter

12 the same solemn declaration as you did yesterday and then we can proceed

13 with the cross-examination.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

15 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

16 WITNESS: BEKIR DELIC [Resumed]

17 [Witness answered through interpreter]

18 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. And you may sit down.

19 Now, take my advice, because I was noticing you yesterday -- it's

20 true that you were sitting there in the same chair answering questions

21 being fired to you first from the Prosecution then from the Defence. And

22 I know this is -- this is an experience with which you are not familiar

23 and which is tiring. Take it easy. I mean, relax -- keep relaxed and

24 calm as much as you can. Try to understand the question. I emphasise

25 once more the importance of leaving a little bit of time before you

1 answer, so that you make the life of the interpreters a little bit less

2 difficult than it was yesterday. And then leave the rest to us.

3 Mr. Zecevic, can I ask you to come forward like you did yesterday,

4 if you don't mind.

5 MR. ZECEVIC: Not at all, Your Honours. I have already prepared

6 over here.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. I saw that. Thank you. And you may proceed.

8 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you, Your Honours.

9 Cross-examined by Mr. Zecevic: [Continued]

10 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Delic.

11 A. Good afternoon to you too.

12 Q. Yesterday we broke with the time when you left the sports hall.

13 Do you remember that?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Tell me, you spent about seven days in that sports hall. The

16 guards were Serb policemen, were they not?

17 A. Yes, reserve policemen.

18 Q. Wearing blue uniforms?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Two or three days after you left to go to the house of your friend

21 you said that military policemen came to fetch you; is that right?

22 A. Yes, military policemen came with a vehicle of the Niva brand.

23 Q. In your testimony here in the Tribunal you said that you concluded

24 they were military policemen because they were wearing uniforms and had

25 white belts. That's right, isn't it?

1 A. Yes, military policemen wearing white belts. Yes.

2 Q. Tell me please, this vehicle, Lada Niva was it painted in a

3 particular colour?

4 A. It was a civilian vehicle, a Lada that used to be used before.

5 Q. So it was not a military vehicle.

6 A. No, no. It was as I have just said.

7 Q. Those persons took you to the SUP, as you said, for an information

8 interview; isn't that right?

9 A. Yes. They took me to the SUP for an information interview.

10 Q. When they brought you to the SUP, they handed you over to the

11 inspector by the name of Zoric.

12 A. They left me in the corridor to wait there, and the inspector came

13 and took me to his office.

14 Q. So they were not present while you were making your statement to

15 Inspector Zoric and then to Inspector Sobot.

16 A. No. They were not present.

17 Q. These gentlemen, Zoric and Sobot, were police inspectors before,

18 weren't they?

19 A. Yes. They used to work in the police before too, yes.

20 Q. You told us that during your interrogation they did not use

21 physical force against you, either of them.

22 A. No. Only Zoric shouted at me.

23 Q. The questions they put to you had to do with your knowledge about

24 any weapons and whether you possessed any weapons; is that right?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. In the course of your testimony yesterday while being examined by

2 my learned friend the Prosecutor, you said that you didn't know anything

3 about these things because in those days you were preoccupied with the

4 construction of your house. That's right, isn't it?

5 A. Yes, that's true. I had just started a family then.

6 Q. Tell me please, did you have any knowledge of the purchase of

7 illegal weapons on a large scale in Sanski Most?

8 A. No. I had no knowledge about any such things.

9 Q. You know, because you worked in the court, that possession of

10 illegal weapons was a crime according to the law in force at the time in

11 Bosnia and Herzegovina.

12 A. Yes. But I didn't follow the law because I was an ordinary

13 employee.

14 Q. Tell me please --

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Just for the record, the translation said, "I didn't

16 follow the law because I was an ordinary employee." I would imagine that

17 what you mean is that you did not study law or did not take an interest in

18 the law. Correct? Because it could also mean that you didn't follow the

19 law -- that you did not observe it.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't study the law. I just

21 completed an ordinary secondary school.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Go ahead, Mr. Zecevic.

23 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Just for the record, I brought this up.

25 MR. ZECEVIC: I understand. But in our language, it's -- it's

1 very clearly distinctive.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.

3 MR. ZECEVIC: That's why I didn't intervene. Thank you.

4 Q. [Interpretation] Tell me please, after you made that statement you

5 said the interrogation went on for four or five hours, didn't you?

6 A. Yes, with interruptions.

7 Q. You were then taken to the elementary school; is that right?

8 A. Yes, to the gym of the elementary school.

9 Q. And then the next day you were transferred to the Betonirka.

10 A. Yes, correct.

11 Q. Tell me please, in Betonirka you were put up in a garage. And in

12 the statement that you gave to the investigator in 2001 you said that the

13 detainees were brought there and taken away by Macura and Dosenovic, the

14 policemen.

15 A. Yes, in a Mercedes.

16 Q. Just make a pause because of the interpreters, please.

17 In the Betonirka reserve policemen were also on guard duty, were

18 they not?

19 A. Yes, correct.

20 Q. You mentioned Martic, Cetkovic, Kravic as shift leaders; is that

21 right?

22 A. Yes, Cetkovic was a shift leader, and so was Martic. But Kravic

23 was a guard in the shift of which the leader was Martic.

24 Q. All three persons were also police officers, weren't they?

25 A. What do you mean?

1 Q. I mean were they part of the reserve police force or not?

2 A. Yes. They wore the uniforms of reserve policemen.

3 Q. You said yesterday while testifying here in court, on page 30,

4 line 5 to 8 of the LiveNote, that you were beaten in Betonirka simply

5 because you were a member of the Muslim nation.

6 A. Yes, correct.

7 Q. You also told us that they slapped you only once during that whole

8 30-day period that you spent in Betonirka.

9 A. Yes. Martic did that, the shift leader.

10 Q. So with the exception of that slap, they didn't beat you even

11 though you were a Muslim.

12 A. Yes. But there were other kinds of mistreatment in Betonirka.

13 Q. Was there a difference in the way the prisoners were beaten?

14 A. No, there was no difference between them.

15 Q. What I would like to ask you is whether some detainees were beaten

16 more frequently than others.

17 A. Yes, that is right.

18 Q. You mentioned the Commander Burnic, didn't you, in that context?

19 A. Yes, I did mention Commander Burnic.

20 Q. You mentioned him, saying that he was beaten up particularly

21 frequently; isn't that right?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And this Mr. Burnic was a police commander before, wasn't he?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And Mr. Martic, who was shift leader, he was also a policeman

1 before.

2 A. No. I didn't know that gentleman Mr. Martic at all.

3 Q. So you didn't know whether Mr. Martic used to work as an

4 active-duty policeman before.

5 A. No. I didn't know him until I was brought to Betonirka.

6 Q. You told us that occasionally you would go to the kitchen and

7 bring food for the prisoners.

8 A. There was an order in which people went to fetch food together

9 with the guards. When we were told to go, we went.

10 Q. So was this a large kitchen?

11 A. It was a military kitchen accommodated in the yard of the SUP

12 building.

13 Q. And that kitchen was used to feed the soldiers as well as the

14 prisoners, wasn't it?

15 A. Yes, it was used for preparing food.

16 Q. In your statement to the OTP in 2001 on page 7, third paragraph,

17 you said that the kitchen was used to feed many of us, both the detainees

18 and the Serbs [As interpreted]?

19 A. Yes, we prisoners and soldiers. I saw them when I went there to

20 get food.

21 Q. On the 7th of July, 1992 you were taken out of the garage, and you

22 said that a policeman, a certain Veselinovic, put a knife to your neck.

23 A. Yes, correct.

24 Q. You also told us that your name was first on the list of the

25 people to be transported to Manjaca.

1 A. Yes. That is what the guard told me when I asked him.

2 Q. Tell me please, you told us yesterday that there were about 60 of

3 you who got onto that truck.

4 A. Yes, correct.

5 Q. Was Mr. Jakov Maric among those 60 people, if you can recall?

6 A. Yes. I do remember. He was a Croat from Sasina.

7 Q. And he was in the same truck as you?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. You also told us yesterday that as you arrived in front of the

10 Manjaca camp, when they lifted the tarpaulin the leader of the convoy and

11 the deputy commander of the camp who came out realised that about 18

12 people had died of suffocation in the truck.

13 A. Yes, correct.

14 Q. You also told us that escorting the convoy was the police. That's

15 right, isn't it? I think you mentioned Dosenovic.

16 A. Yes, the reserve police force. He was the leader of the convoy,

17 because before the war Dragan Dosenovic, also known as Maca, was an

18 active-duty policeman.

19 Q. You also told us that the deputy commander who you saw on that

20 occasion had the nickname Spaga; is that right?

21 A. Yes, that is how they called him.

22 Q. When the truck was opened and you got down, Spaga ordered you to

23 carry out the dead from the truck, didn't he?

24 A. Yes. The dead and a couple of men who were still showing signs of

25 life.

1 Q. In your statement of 2001 given to the OTP you said that he also

2 said that you should take a pen and paper -- that a pen and paper should

3 be taken and the names of the dead written down.

4 A. Yes, that's right.

5 Q. Did you write those names down?

6 A. No. Someone else did who knew them better, because there were

7 people from the villages. I only knew the people from downtown Sanski

8 Most, from Mahala and Muhici.

9 Q. Did you know somebody called Mirhad Delic?

10 A. I met him in Betonirka for the first time. He was a teacher.

11 Q. He was one of the casualties, wasn't he?

12 A. Yes, that's correct.

13 Q. This deputy camp commander then ordered you to get water to try

14 and bring them back to life.

15 A. Yes. He gave us a container with water in an attempt to assist

16 them.

17 Q. Make a pause please because of the interpretation.

18 A. I understand.

19 Q. You went on to say that the deputy camp commander refused to take

20 in the dead people and instructed those who were escorting the convoy to

21 drive those men back to Sanski Most, telling them that the dead people

22 were their problem; isn't that right?

23 A. Yes, that is correct. He said, "We will only accept those who are

24 standing on their two feet." As for the others, he said what you just

25 said.

1 Q. So you entered Manjaca on the 7th of July, 1992.

2 A. Yes, in the evening. Correct.

3 Q. And on that same day, when this tragedy occurred with these men on

4 the truck.

5 A. Yes, on that same day.

6 Q. A week later you were registered by the International Red Cross,

7 around the 14th of July; isn't that right?

8 A. Yes, on the 14th of July.

9 Q. Tell me please, my learned friend the Prosecutor has already asked

10 you whether the conditions in Manjaca were significantly better than those

11 in Betonirka. Do you remember that question?

12 A. Yes, I remember. They were no better.

13 Q. There was more space, wasn't there?

14 A. Yes, there was more room, but there were more men too.

15 Q. But there was more air, wasn't there?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Tell me, you said yesterday that from time to time during that

18 first week of your stay in Manjaca they beat some ordinary civilians. You

19 told us that, didn't you?

20 A. Yes. They went in groups of 20 men.

21 Q. But they never beat you, did they?

22 A. No. I wasn't called out. Because we had come from Betonirka,

23 they said they didn't need to interrogate us again.

24 Q. So if I understand you correctly, those men who were beaten up

25 were beaten up during their interrogations; is that right?

1 A. Yes, during their interrogations.

2 Q. I think that in your statement you said that those interrogations

3 were conducted by these same inspectors, Sobot and others, police

4 inspectors.

5 A. Yes, police inspectors who had come from Sanski Most.

6 Q. Tell me please, the personnel in the camp, the guards, were they

7 fed from the same canteen as you were during your stay in Manjaca?

8 A. I don't know. I didn't notice, because we went to have lunch. As

9 soon as we finished, we had to go back to the stable.

10 Q. Do you know whether there were several canteens or only one for

11 one part of the camp?

12 A. At first the kitchen was in the first canteen, and then later a

13 second canteen was formed in the other camp, when the detainees were

14 brought over from Omarska.

15 Q. So in two parts of the camp there were altogether two kitchens.

16 A. [No interpretation]

17 Q. Tell me, after you left the Manjaca camp, did you draw up a list

18 of the prisoners from Manjaca?

19 A. No, I didn't. I didn't do any such things. When I met, I had to

20 join up with my family after 19 months -- 15 months. I hadn't seen my son

21 or my wife for 15 months.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Ackerman.

23 MR. ACKERMAN: The question, Your Honour, line 14, the witness did

24 answer. I distinctly heard him say "da". You might check with the

25 witness to be sure, but I'm quite certain he did answer. He answered with

1 a yes.

2 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you very much, Mr. Ackerman. That is right,

3 Your Honours. He did answer, but the answer is not in the transcript.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: You are right, Mr. Ackerman.

5 Let's clarify it this way: Sir, when you were asked about how

6 many kitchens there were in the camp, did I hear you well saying that

7 initially there was one kitchen in the first camp and then later on when

8 more prisoners were brought forward from Omarska, a second kitchen was

9 created in a second camp; is that correct.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is quite correct, as you put

11 it.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Sorry to have interrupted you like, this but I think

13 it was important.

14 MR. ZECEVIC: Yes, by all means. Thank you very much, Your

15 Honour.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Go ahead, Mr. Zecevic.

17 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, something is --

18 THE ACCUSED BRDJANIN: [Interpretation] Excuse me.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: I am not -- wait a minute, because we are not

20 getting any interpretation.

21 THE INTERPRETER: The microphone wasn't switched on.

22 THE ACCUSED BRDJANIN: [Interpretation] It says he didn't see his

23 wife for 19 and 15 months, but he said 9 to 10. It says 15 months, but it

24 says 10. Nobody is reacting to the translation.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: No. Here it says, "No, I didn't. I didn't do any

1 such things. When I met, I had to join up with my family after 19

2 months -- 15 months. I hadn't seen my son or my wife for 15 months. This

3 is what we have here.

4 So what did you actually say? How long had you not seen your wife

5 and your son?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Nine to ten months.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Nine to ten months.

8 Yes. Thank you. I mean, it's -- when things are -- I am not in a

9 position to know because I don't understand the language. I am getting a

10 few words here and there, but -- but I haven't perfected it as yet.

11 So yes, that goes for the record,. And you may proceed now.

12 Thank you.

13 Thank you, Mr. Brdjanin, as well.

14 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you, Your Honours.

15 Q. [Interpretation] Tell me please, Mr. Delic, you returned to Sanski

16 Most in 1997.

17 A. On the 10th of April, 1997.

18 Q. Do you remember in September of that year, that is, 1997, that you

19 were a party to proceedings in the municipal court?

20 A. No, not at all. I started doing my old -- I took up my old job

21 again.

22 Q. Is it true that you were a party in proceedings before the Trial

23 Chamber chaired by Edina Ridjesic, on the 30th of September, 1997, the

24 proclamation of a missing person as being dead, regarding the late Mirko

25 Delic?

1 A. Oh, yes, that. That is true. That was those proceedings. But

2 you didn't explain what kind of proceedings you meant.

3 Q. So you did take part in those proceedings as a witness, didn't

4 you?

5 A. Yes, I did.

6 Q. As a witness who was to testify regarding the date of the death of

7 the late Mirhad Delic.

8 A. Yes, that's right.

9 MR. NICHOLLS: Sorry. I just have a question about the

10 translation line 20. I think this might have been part of the confusion.

11 Counsel's first question is stated "as a party" and then later witness.

12 So I don't know if that translation was --

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah. I mean, he wasn't a party for sure.

14 MR. ZECEVIC: It wasn't my question as well, Your Honours.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. But it's clear -- it's clear enough.

16 MR. ZECEVIC: Any question was: Did he took part in --

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Anyway, it was translated whether he was a

18 party. And -- you go ahead.

19 MR. ZECEVIC: Could the witness be shown, please, DT22.

20 Could you put the translation on the ELMO, please.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: And also -- one of you could clarify this -- because

22 now you referred to this dead person as Mirko Delic. Before you referred

23 to him as Mirhat Delic. In this document he's referred to as Mirhat

24 Delic. And in this statement to the OTP he refers to him as Mirhad. Now,

25 I don't know whether there is any difference between Mirko, Mirhad,

1 Mirhat. Perhaps you could --

2 MR. ZECEVIC: Yes. I will clarify that.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, please. Because we want to make sure that we

4 are talking of the same person in any case.

5 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. Tell me, sir, the deceased, Mr. Delic, was his name Mirhat or

7 Mirhad?

8 A. His name was Delic Mirhad. I met him for the first time, but his

9 name was Mirhad Delic and he originally came from Sandzak. I met him then

10 for the first time.

11 Q. Is the last letter "T" or "D" of his first name?

12 A. I don't know. I don't know how it is recorded. I know that his

13 name was Mirhad. It could be a mistake. I know that his surname was

14 Delic and that he was a Muslim by ethnicity.

15 Q. Very well. You see what it says in this ruling. In your opinion

16 to the best of your knowledge, is that his proper name?

17 A. Delic Mirhad or Mirhad.

18 Q. And his wife's name is Gospa, isn't it?

19 A. I met the lady for the first time. I didn't know her real name

20 because she lived in a different part of town, and originally she came

21 from Lukavica or Fajtovci, I'm not sure.

22 MR. ZECEVIC: Your Honours, it is obvious that the witness does

23 not really know whether it's --

24 JUDGE AGIUS: [Microphone not activated]

25 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, Your Honour.

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1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Judge Janu is pointing out to me, rightly so,

2 that in the text of the decision -- of the decision of the municipal court

3 in Sanski Most, of that -- of the 30th September, there is a marriage to a

4 certificate that was produced during the proceedings.

5 MR. ZECEVIC: Yes.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: So I think we could leave it at that. I just wanted

7 to make sure that when you said Mirko, you were referring to this Mirhad.

8 MR. ZECEVIC: Of course. Thank you.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

10 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. Tell me please, this ruling, you've seen it now, haven't you?

12 A. Yes, I'm seeing it now.

13 Q. You didn't see it before?

14 A. No. After one's testimony the judge draws up the ruling. You

15 don't have to be present.

16 Q. But you told us that you took part in those proceedings.

17 A. Yes. I was a witness.

18 Q. Do you see that in the ruling it says that the death is being

19 established of Mirhad Delic, the date being the 13th of July, 1992 on the

20 way to Manjaca.

21 A. Yes. I looked and that is not correct. It should be the 7th of

22 July.

23 Q. You see on page 2 of the English translation, second paragraph,

24 last sentence -- and in the ruling before you it is the second paragraph,

25 again the last sentence, and it says: "The witness, Bekir Delic, said

1 that he had been in a truck with other Muslims on the 13th of July, 1992

2 when they were transferred to the Manjaca camp and that he had seen Mirhad

3 Delic die of lack of oxygen and water." Is that what you said in court or

4 not?

5 A. The date is not correct, but everything else is true. He was with

6 me in the truck and he passed away. The date is the 7th of July.

7 Q. Are you quite sure that you told the Court that this occurred on

8 the 7th of July?

9 A. Yes, I cannot forget that.

10 Q. You know, since you worked in a court, that the date of somebody's

11 death is very important.

12 A. Yes. One has to know exactly when a certain person died.

13 MR. NICHOLLS: Excuse me. The witness has already stated that he

14 did not go to law school and what his job at the court was. And I think

15 he's explained that he hadn't seen this order before, he didn't write this

16 order. As far as he knows, a mistake about the date was made following

17 his testimony. I think he's answered --

18 JUDGE AGIUS: But he's volunteered an answer nonetheless.

19 Yes.

20 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

21 [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Delic.

22 No further questions.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you too.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Zecevic.

25 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you.

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Delic, you are now going to be cross-examined by

2 Mr. Ackerman, who is the lead counsel for Radoslav Brdjanin.

3 Yes, Mr. Ackerman.

4 MR. ACKERMAN: Thank you, Your Honour.

5 Cross-examined by Mr. Ackerman:

6 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Delic.

7 A. Good afternoon to you.

8 Q. I'm glad you're feeling better today.

9 A. Thank you.

10 Q. I'm not going to take very much of your time. I've just got just

11 a few questions, and I think we'll get through it rather quickly. I'm

12 going to try to ask you questions as much as I can that will be real easy

13 for you to answer with either a yes or a no, because that will get us

14 finished quicker. So if you can, just tell me yes or no when I ask you a

15 question. And if you need to explain something, then, you know, please

16 understand you're free to do that.

17 Before the war, you told us that you worked as a summons server

18 and as a driver; correct?

19 A. Yes. For a short time I was a driver, and then I became a court

20 server.

21 Q. And one of the people you worked for in that regard would have

22 been Judge Adil Draganovic; correct?

23 A. Yes. He was president of the court.

24 Q. When did you last talk to Judge Draganovic?

25 A. Last time I saw him was on May 15th, 1992 in court.

1 Q. You haven't seen him for ten years.

2 A. No. No. Now he is the Presiding Judge, the President of the

3 court.

4 Q. No. My question is: When did you last see him? Did you see him

5 last week?

6 A. When I was working. I go to work every morning, and I'm there at

7 7.30.

8 Q. For some reason I'm not making myself clear to you.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Let me put the question, Mr. Ackerman.

10 Mr. Delic, what we want to know from you, following the question

11 by Mr. Ackerman, is that you now have gone back to Sanski Most and work in

12 the same court building where President Adil Draganovic works. What

13 Mr. Ackerman wants to know is starting from today, when did you last see

14 Judge Draganovic?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Last Friday.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Last Friday. So a week ago, exactly a week ago.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes. Before I left for here.

18 In the court building, yes.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: I hand him back to you, Mr. Ackerman.

20 MR. ACKERMAN: Thank you.

21 Q. Did you have an opportunity either that day or some day prior to

22 that to discuss with Judge Draganovic the fact that you were coming here

23 and the testimony you were going to give?

24 A. I only told him that I was -- I would be leaving on June 28th to

25 The Hague so that I could get permission to leave to travel.

1 Q. Did he give you any kind of advice about being a witness here?

2 A. No. I didn't discuss the matter with him.

3 Q. Did you know that he had been a witness here?

4 A. Yes. I saw him on television. There was a short clip from The

5 Hague Tribunal.

6 Q. Do you recall the nature of that clip, what that clip was about?

7 A. No. It was very short. When I got into the house, my mother and

8 wife told me, and they just said, "Your president has just been on

9 television."

10 Q. So you didn't actually see it yourself.

11 A. No. I don't watch television late because I have to get up early,

12 since I'm a server and I have to travel 10 or 15 kilometres to my

13 workplace and I have to be fresh for the day -- the work day.

14 Q. Do you know Zijad Ibric?

15 A. He works in the AID.

16 Q. Do you know him?

17 A. Only officially.

18 Q. When did you last talk with him? When was the last time you

19 talked with Mr. Ibric?

20 A. He saw us off with the gentlemen who came -- a gentleman from the

21 UN who came to fetch us at quarter to 10.00.

22 Q. He saw you off from Sanski Most?

23 A. He called the driver to come for us, who was in charge of that.

24 Q. Did you discuss with him anything about the testimony that you

25 would give here?

1 A. No. I only saw him officially. But privately, not. I didn't

2 contact him privately at all.

3 Q. But when you say you saw him officially, officially did you and he

4 have a conversation about the nature of your testimony in this Tribunal?

5 A. No. He was only a contact person and informed me about my trip

6 and nothing else.

7 Q. At page 54 of the LiveNote yesterday, sir, you'll recall there was

8 some questioning by Mr. Zecevic of you about uniforms worn by the SOS and

9 specifically camouflage uniforms worn by the SOS. And your answer to

10 Mr. Zecevic was: "They wore camouflage uniforms." And then you said

11 this: "And other witnesses can confirm this." Do you remember saying

12 that?

13 A. I don't remember. He asked me, and I just told him about

14 uniforms. The 6th Krajina Brigade soldiers had warm uniforms and the

15 others had light summer uniforms.

16 Q. Well, the part that I'm interested in was when you said, "Other

17 witnesses can confirm this." I'm wondering when you had the opportunity

18 to speak with other witnesses about what they might be able to confirm, if

19 you did?

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Yes, Mr. Nicholls. Let me hear you first.

21 MR. NICHOLLS: Just that is -- could be a complete

22 mischaracterisation of what this --

23 JUDGE AGIUS: It could be. In fact, I'm going to ask -- I'm going

24 to stop you, because I fully agree, and I'm going to ask Mr. Ackerman to

25 rephrase the question, in a sense asking the witness whether when he said

1 "Other witnesses can confirm this," he meant that he had discussed the

2 matter with other specific persons that could be brought forward as

3 witnesses and confirm this or that are intended to come forward as

4 witnesses and confirm this.

5 MR. ACKERMAN: I think the simple way to ask the question, Your

6 Honour, is this:

7 Q. Who are the other people that you discussed this with that --

8 JUDGE AGIUS: No. But that's presuming that he has discussed it

9 with other people. I am pretty sure that what he meant by his statement

10 was that this is something that not just him but even others can come

11 forward and confirm. It doesn't mean to say that he has discussed it with

12 others.

13 MR. ACKERMAN: Sir --

14 JUDGE AGIUS: This is -- and therefore, please first put that kind

15 of question and then move to the second, if it's the case of moving to the

16 second.

17 MR. ACKERMAN:

18 Q. Did you discuss this issue with other people?

19 A. No, I didn't.

20 Q. What causes you to conclude that other people can confirm what you

21 told us?

22 A. Witnesses that should come and that come -- should come to testify

23 if they have been informed of the same and if they were aware of the

24 distinction between the uniforms.

25 MR. ACKERMAN: I think that's good enough.

1 Q. In your statement to the Office of the Prosecutor, and also in

2 your testimony here yesterday, you told us that Vlado Vrkes represented to

3 you in a meeting that he was some kind of an authority with the Autonomous

4 Region of Krajina. You remember telling us that?

5 A. Yes. This was on May 15th, when they took over the municipal

6 court in Sanski Most, and he introduced himself as Vlado Vrkes and that he

7 was representing the Autonomous District of Bosanska Krajina.

8 Q. And you said there were about 40 people there, including Judge

9 Adil Draganovic; correct?

10 A. Well, all those -- the employees of the court were there in the

11 court in Sanski Most.

12 Q. Among those being judge -- Judge Draganovic; right?

13 A. Yes. He was president of the court.

14 Q. My question is not what he was but whether he was present at that

15 meeting.

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. When did you learn, if you ever did learn, that -- that it was not

18 true that Vlado Vrkes represented the Autonomous Region of Krajina? Did

19 you ever learn that that was not a true statement?

20 A. No. I didn't find that out ever. I was not into politics. I

21 just heard about it on May 15th.

22 Q. Isn't it correct, sir, that what he told you was that he was

23 representing the regional board of the SDS and not the Autonomous Region

24 of Krajina?

25 A. I don't know those notions. I'm not an expert. I'm not

1 politically educated.

2 Q. You told us that there was no resistance in Mahala, didn't you?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Then you told us about a time when several -- when you and several

5 other people were escorted by members of the SOS through and from Mahala

6 to the Montenegro Cafe. You remember that?

7 A. Yes. From halfway to Mahala. They came to -- halfway to

8 Mahala, and then they were taken back to the cellar that I mentioned,

9 where there was -- drinks were served.

10 Q. And you were in that group, weren't you?

11 A. My father, mother, family, children, old people.

12 Q. But I asked you if you were in that group. That's all I asked

13 you. Were you in that group?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Could I ask the Prosecutor to give you a copy of your statement so

16 that you can look at a part of it with me.

17 If you look on page 4. Sir, it's about two-thirds of the way

18 down. The paragraph begins with the words "Srpski SOS." I believe

19 that's the paragraph I want to refer to. And I think in that paragraph

20 you say this: "My brother, Jasmin Delic, and a young Muslim man were

21 called out and placed in front of their transporter vehicle and used as a

22 human shield as we were escorted through Mahala." That's what it says,

23 isn't it?

24 A. No. We were taken to the cellar, and my brother remained with

25 them, and there was no need for a shield. We were separated.

1 Q. Do you see that language in the statement you gave to the

2 Prosecutor that I just read?

3 A. Yes. Yes, I can see that.

4 Q. My question to you is: Is that what it says in the statement you

5 gave to the Prosecutor? Does it say: "My brother, Jasmin Delic, and a

6 young Muslim man were called out and placed in front of their transporter

7 vehicle and used as a human shield was we were escorted through Mahala"?

8 Does it say that?

9 A. Yes. While they were taking us. It is said: "They called my

10 brother, Jasmin Delic, and a young Muslim and they put us in front of the

11 transporter vehicle and used as a human shield as we were being escorted

12 through Mahala." That's what it says.

13 Q. So are you telling us today that you did not tell the Prosecutor

14 that?

15 A. Yes, I said that. That what is written here in my statement,

16 that's what I told the Prosecutor.

17 Q. Do you stand by it today as being the truth?

18 A. As I have said it, as it has been written. I didn't quite see

19 what was written underneath.

20 Q. Now, the next day, after you'd spent a night in the basement of

21 that cafe, you told us the cafe owner called the Crisis Staff and asked

22 the Crisis Staff what should be done with the 40 or so of you that were in

23 that basement. That's true; yes?

24 A. Yes, that is true.

25 Q. And then after that call to the Crisis Staff, according to your

1 statement to the OTP, a Serb guard told you that you could leave.

2 A. Yes, he told us that. And then he withdrew into the cellar.

3 Q. Right. When you were in Betonirka, there were various shifts of

4 guards that worked there; correct?

5 A. Yes, it is true.

6 Q. And who was the shift leader, if you recall, of the -- the guard

7 shift that was very kind to the prisoners, that would leave the doors open

8 and give you extra water and things like that? Who was the shift leader

9 of that shift?

10 A. The shift leader, Korica Uros -- Uros Korica was his name, if

11 you're referring to him. His name was Uros Korica, the shift leader.

12 MR. ACKERMAN: I got not interpretation.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: The interpretation is coming through. I mean, if

14 you have a technical problem, we'll -- we'll try and fix that,

15 Mr. Ackerman.

16 MR. ACKERMAN: It has stopped working, Your Honour. I don't hear

17 anything.

18 Will somebody talk to me. Nothing is happening.

19 THE INTERPRETER: Mr. Ackerman. Mr. Ackerman.

20 MR. ACKERMAN: It just came back. Yeah, okay. Try it again.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: The interpretation, please.

22 THE INTERPRETER: Mr. Ackerman, can you hear us?

23 MR. ACKERMAN: I'm going to go to another device.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: It should be on 4.

25 MR. ACKERMAN: It was on 4. It was working fine for a while. I

1 must have dropped something on it.

2 Do you want to talk to me now and see if I can hear you.

3 THE INTERPRETER: Can you hear me, Mr. Ackerman?

4 MR. ACKERMAN: Yes, thank you. Okay. Now, we got down to --

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Well, you asked the witness for the name of the

6 leader or shift leader --

7 MR. ACKERMAN: Yes. And he gave the name.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: -- who was kind to the detainees there.

9 MR. ACKERMAN:

10 Q. All right. In your testimony yesterday, sir, you told us that the

11 SOS carried out the orders of the SDS party. Do you recall telling us

12 that?

13 A. Yes. Its unit was called the Serbian defence forces.

14 Q. Yes. Did you ever see any written orders from the SDS to the

15 SOS?

16 A. No, I didn't.

17 Q. Did you ever hear anyone from SDS giving orders to the SOS?

18 A. No, I had no occasion to hear that. I was closed, I was detained,

19 so I don't know.

20 Q. You told us about the trip to Manjaca from Betonirka. You said it

21 took about nine hours. Could you tell us how far it is from Betonirka to

22 Manjaca.

23 A. I don't know. It is towards Mrkonjic. I really don't know the

24 area and I had never been there before.

25 Q. Would you accept that it's probably not more than about

1 70 kilometres?

2 A. I don't know. I don't know much about roads.

3 Q. That's fine. Thank you.

4 MR. NICHOLLS: Just to be clear, the witness did not say yesterday

5 the truck was in motion.

6 MR. ACKERMAN: I'm fully aware of that. I'm coming to that.

7 Q. You told us that you spent six hours, I think, sitting at -- at

8 the Krings facility; correct?

9 A. No, that is not correct. I never mentioned Krings.

10 Q. Where was it? Oh, it was the sports hall, wasn't it?

11 A. Yes. Yes, in front of the sports hall.

12 Q. And you couldn't look out, so how do you know that you were at the

13 sports hall? Did someone tell you that's where you were?

14 A. Well, I told you that I tried to look through that small hole and

15 I could see a little bit. We could find that out once we arrived, because

16 the others were there -- the other Muslims from Mahala were there. There

17 were five or six truckloads of them when we arrived to Manjaca.

18 Q. You didn't ever try to look out again because you said that they

19 would -- that one time you looked out, they tried to hit you. Did you

20 ever try to make an opening in the canvas while the truck was actually

21 driving?

22 A. Yes. Once a young man tried to do that, but they stopped him and

23 told him, "If you try again --" a reserve policeman said that if he tried

24 it again, that we would all be killed.

25 Q. But were there guards riding on the outside of the canvas or

1 something?

2 A. No. They were in trucks, and there was a Golf escorting them with

3 the policeman Dosenovic.

4 Q. During the time you were in Manjaca, were the people who were

5 confined there with you wearing military uniforms?

6 A. No. Those were civilians.

7 Q. So they were wearing their own clothing?

8 A. Yes. They received some old uniforms in the other camp, those

9 that had come earlier before us, a month before us. And my brother, when

10 I saw him for the first time, he had a grey winter shirt and slacks.

11 Q. That were a military uniform?

12 A. No. It was bronze in colour. It was not the olive-grey colour.

13 Q. You told us that during the time you were at Manjaca you and

14 several of the over people -- most of the other people there lost quite a

15 large amount of weight; is that correct?

16 A. Yes, that is correct.

17 Q. So the clothes that you came there in probably didn't fit you very

18 well by the time you left there. Would that be a reasonable conclusion?

19 A. That is correct.

20 Q. When was it that the ICRC gave jackets to everybody there? Do you

21 remember when that was?

22 A. It was December 13th in the evening, the day before we were to

23 leave a number of prisoners --

24 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...

25 A. The first group of 1.400 prisoners.

1 These were warm jackets, winter jackets.

2 Q. What colour were they?

3 A. Of different colours. Blue, red, different colours.

4 Q. Okay. There also was a time, wasn't there, when the ICRC arranged

5 for you to get shoes.

6 A. That was before, yes. Before we left the camp.

7 Q. Do you recall ever getting any kiwis to eat?

8 A. When the Red Cross started feeding us. It was towards the end of

9 August.

10 Q. That last day, as you were leaving Manjaca, were you all at one

11 point standing outside the camp, lined up outside the camp getting ready

12 to board vehicles?

13 A. The day before, on the 13th, there was a roll call and 50 people

14 were appointed to board the trucks. There were groups of 50. That was

15 the preparation. And the next day we boarded the trucks in groups of 50.

16 Q. And right before you boarded those trucks -- well, the first

17 thing, I want to ask you this: There were some representatives from

18 international organisations present on that day, weren't there?

19 A. Yes, the Red Cross.

20 Q. And right before you boarded those trucks, did any of the

21 prisoners who were leaving make any speeches?

22 A. No, none of the prisoners held speeches.

23 MR. ACKERMAN: That's all I have. Thank you.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Ackerman.

25 Any re-examination?

1 MR. NICHOLLS: Yes.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Go ahead, Mr. Nicholls.

3 Re-examined by Mr. Nicholls:

4 Q. You were yesterday shown a document by counsel signed by Stojan

5 Zupljanin which referenced the bombing of your house in Sanski Most. Do

6 you remember that? You don't need to look for it now, but do you remember

7 you were shown that document?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Now, although that report was made, you said in your statement to

10 the OTP -- and I'm reading from page 3 of the English translation -- "I

11 should not even have reported it," speaking about the bombing of your

12 house, "as there is no investigation and they never did anything about

13 it."

14 My question is: Are you aware of anybody being arrested and even

15 prosecuted for bombing the homes or businesses of Muslims in Sanski Most

16 in 1992?

17 A. No. I don't know that anyone was arrested.

18 Q. In 1992, did you own a car or a vehicle?

19 A. Yes. I had a Lada 1300 special.

20 Q. What happened to that vehicle?

21 A. I left it in Caplje with my mother-in-law, and then after I found

22 her she told me that some soldiers had come and taken the car. She tried

23 to stop them, but she couldn't do anything.

24 Q. Now, you were also asked today about what happened when a

25 transport truck that you were on on July 7th arrived at Manjaca. And you

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13 English transcripts.

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1 said that Spaga, who you saw as a person -- the warden, the person in

2 charge of the camp, came out and said that only people who could walk

3 would be admitted, or words to that effect. Is that right?

4 A. Yes, that's right.

5 Q. Now, other than providing some water to try to wake up or help

6 these men who were in such bad shape that they couldn't walk, did the camp

7 command provide any other medical assistance to these people who couldn't

8 walk who were being delivered to their care?

9 A. No. We were taken inside, and they stayed behind. And I don't

10 know anything about them.

11 Q. You were also asked -- or there was a conversation about how the

12 food or the kitchens were the same for the guards in the camp and for the

13 prisoners. Well, did you notice whether any of the guards had

14 difficulties standing up and became light-headed the way that you

15 described that you and your fellow prisoners were at the beginning because

16 of lack of food?

17 A. The interpreter made a mistake. It wasn't the guards. It was the

18 detainees.

19 Q. I understand.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. I think you -- let me -- let me phrase the

21 question myself in a way which hopefully you will be able to understand.

22 You are a hundred per cent right. You had actually stated that it was

23 fellow prisoners who in the beginning were light-headed and would need

24 time to stand on their two feet because of lack of food. The question of

25 Mr. Nicholls was: "Were any of the guards that you could see -- that you

1 could observe in the same condition, or was it just the prisoners that

2 were in that condition?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I mentioned only the prisoners. I

4 never saw a single guard.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Go ahead.

6 MR. NICHOLLS:

7 Q. I want to clear up one point that counsel asked you about. He

8 asked you about -- excuse me one moment. I'm looking at page 4 of the

9 English translation of your statement. You don't need the statement in

10 front of you for this question. He asked you about your brother Jasmin

11 and a young Muslim man being called out and being placed in front of a

12 transporter vehicle and used as human shields. Now, whose transporter

13 vehicle was that? In other words, was that a transporter vehicle of the

14 army, the SOS, or a different group? Could you tell me ...?

15 A. It was a vehicle used by the SOS.

16 Q. Thank you. You were also asked about this court document -- about

17 the death certificate in which you appeared as a witness in that hearing

18 at Sanski Most. In your statement to us, to the Office of the Prosecutor,

19 you wrote that Mirhat Delic died on that transport and that he made this

20 gurgling sound as he died. Do you have any doubt in your mind that

21 Mirhad, Mirhat, however you -- you said you didn't know how to spell his

22 first name -- that Mirhad Delic died on that transport that you were on?

23 Is there any doubt about that in your mind?

24 A. Yes, he died. And to this day nothing is known. They are

25 registered as missing.

1 Q. Thank you.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Nicholls.

3 There are no questions from the Bench. And that means, Mr. Delic,

4 that your task here is over, your testimony has come to an end. And on

5 behalf of the Tribunal, it is my duty to thank you for having come over to

6 give your evidence here in this trial. You will now be escorted out of

7 this courtroom by the usher, and you will be given all the attention you

8 require in preparation for the return of yourself to where you came from.

9 I thank you once more. And should you need anything between now and your

10 return, please get in touch with the persons responsible from the Victims

11 and Witnesses Section. I thank you. You may now withdraw.

12 Usher.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you too.

14 [The witness withdrew]

15 JUDGE AGIUS: I think we'll have a break now. The next witness is

16 in closed session.

17 MS. RICHTEROVA: No. He is not in closed session, but --

18 JUDGE AGIUS: He's a protective --

19 MS. RICHTEROVA: Certain protective measures were granted,

20 pseudonym and facial distortion.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: So I think we will need to prepare the room, because

22 he needs to come in when the curtains are drawn, because otherwise --

23 THE REGISTRAR: Judge, I will take care of that.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: You will take care of that. Madam Registrar, I

25 thank you.

1 So we will resume at 4.00. Thank you.

2 --- Recess taken at 3.40 p.m.

3 --- On resuming at 4.02 p.m.

4 [The witness entered court]

5 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Good afternoon to you, sir.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Very soon you will be starting your evidence here in

9 this Tribunal and in this particular case. And before you do so, I want

10 to put your mind at rest, set your mind at rest, that the protective

11 measures that you asked for have been granted and are being observed. You

12 will not be referred to by your name, but you have been given a number and

13 we will be referring to you as BT16. You are a number.

14 Also you have asked for image distortion, and that mean that is no

15 one will be able to see you as you appear to us in this courtroom. No

16 one, in other words, outside of this courtroom will be able to see your

17 face because your image will be distorted.

18 Having said that, there is only one other thing that I need to

19 tell you, and that is that it is the practice of this Tribunal that before

20 you start giving evidence, you enter a solemn declaration that in the

21 course of your testimony you will tell us the truth, the whole truth, and

22 nothing but the truth. It's the equivalent of an oath in any jurisdiction

23 that you may be familiar with. The text of the solemn declaration is

24 contained on a piece of paper which the usher standing next to you is

25 holding in her hands. She's going to give it to you now. Please stand up

1 and read that solemn declaration aloud. That would be your undertaking

2 before this Tribunal to tell us the truth and the whole truth.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

4 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

5 WITNESS: WITNESS BT16

6 [Witness answered through interpreter]

7 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, and you may sit down.

8 I'll explain briefly where you are and who we are. We are the

9 three judges composing this Trial Chamber. I am the Presiding Judge. My

10 name is Agius and I come from Malta. To my right I have Judge Janu from

11 the Czech Republic, and to my left Judge Taya from Japan.

12 The three persons you see to your right in the front row are the

13 members of the team of the Prosecutor. They are handling the Prosecution

14 in this case. And the lady in the middle will be the officer from the --

15 the high officer from the Prosecution that will put questions to you in

16 direct examination.

17 When that is over, it will be the turn of the two Defence teams to

18 cross-examine you. This is a right, a fundamental right, which is

19 reserved not only by our Rules of Procedure and by our Statute but also by

20 the most fundamental of -- rules of international law. You will be

21 examined by the Defence team for Radoslav Brdjanin, which is in the front

22 row to your left the three persons that you see, and in the back row

23 always to your left there is the Defence team for General Momir Talic, and

24 they, too, will be cross-examining you.

25 When we come to that stage there will be something else that I

1 will need to tell you. For the time being, please concentrate your

2 attention to the questions that the Prosecution will be putting forward --

3 putting to you, and try in your answers to be brief and precise. The

4 secret in giving a good testimony is to answer the question, the whole

5 question, and nothing but the question. If you deviate from that, you

6 will be kept here longer, your stay will become longer and longer, and you

7 will get tired, and we will get tired, and no one will be pleased.

8 So Madam Richterova, please you may proceed with your first

9 question in examination-in-chief

10 Examined by Ms. Richterova:

11 Q. I ask the usher to show you a piece of paper. Read it for

12 yourself, and state only whether yes or no it is your name.

13 A. Yes.

14 MS. RICHTEROVA: Please show it --

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Usher, please show it to the Defence and to us.

16 MS. RICHTEROVA: It will be Exhibit number P846 under seal.

17 Q. Witness, what is your nationality?

18 A. [No interpretation]

19 Q. And what is your religion?

20 A. Catholic.

21 Q. Is it correct that you were born in Sanski Most but you lived in

22 the village of Hrustovo?

23 A. Yes.

24 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness approach the microphones,

25 please.

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.

2 Madam Richterova, my attention is being drawn to the transcript.

3 Although we -- I personally heard the witness say Bosniak, there is no

4 reported reply to your question "Witness, what is your nationality?" Sir,

5 am I correct in saying that you answered Bosniak to that question?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

8 Go ahead, Ms. -- Madam.

9 MS. RICHTEROVA:

10 Q. You answered you lived in the village of Hrustovo. And we know

11 that the village of Hrustovo is comprised of several hamlets. Which part

12 of Hrustovo did you live?

13 A. I lived in the hamlet of Handanovici.

14 Q. And what was the ethnic composition of this hamlet?

15 A. It was purely Muslim.

16 Q. I would like to show the witness a map which was previously

17 exhibited under P803. However, these maps were annotated by previous

18 witnesses, so I would like to provide a copy which hasn't been annotated.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Ackerman.

20 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I -- I didn't catch it, but there's

21 got to be a mistake, I would think, in line 14 up near the top of your

22 screen," what is your religion?"

23 JUDGE AGIUS: He answered Catholic.

24 MR. ACKERMAN: He did?

25 JUDGE AGIUS: That's what I heard.

1 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, he's apparently converted, because in his

2 statement to the OTP he says he's a Muslim.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: That's what he answered. I know that that's what he

4 said.

5 MR. ACKERMAN: All right.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Are you a Catholic?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Can anyone explain to me how on earth -- what did

9 you answer when you were asked the question "What is your religion?"

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said I was a Muslim.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Can anyone explain to me how answering I am a Muslim

12 becomes I am a Catholic?

13 Anyway, I'm -- for the record, I did hear "Catholic," and the

14 other two Judges are confirming that they, too, heard him -- not him,

15 heard the interpreter say that he was Catholic -- that he answered that he

16 was a Catholic.

17 We have not converted you as yet. So for the record, it will now

18 go that you are confirming that you are a Muslim.

19 MS. RICHTEROVA: So this will be Exhibit P803.2.

20 Can we place it on the ELMO, please.

21 Q. Can you show on this map where the hamlet Handanovici is

22 approximately, because it is not printed on this map.

23 A. Here.

24 Q. And can you please take a highlighter and mark it as "H."

25 A. [Marks]

1 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, Madam Richterova. My attention is

2 being -- let's go into private session for a while.

3 [Private session]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [Open session]

1 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. We are in open session,

2 Madam Registrar. Thank you.

3 MS. RICHTEROVA: I would like to leave this map on the ELMO, but I

4 am not referring to this map right now but in the future. So we can leave

5 it there.

6 Q. You lived in your village in 1992. How would you describe general

7 situation in the area of your village and the surrounding areas in 1992,

8 or better, say, in the first half of the year 1992?

9 A. The situation was such that it was tense. And on the media we

10 were able to see that in some parts of our country of Bosnia and

11 Herzegovina that the war had already started and we were all very much

12 afraid.

13 Q. In your village did you stood any guards?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Were these guards armed?

16 A. Partly.

17 Q. What was the purpose of these guards?

18 A. The purpose was simply because we were afraid that somebody might

19 catch us by surprise. Guard duty was mostly at night. We didn't want

20 what happened later to happen to us then.

21 Q. Now, I was talking about the guards in your village, which was a

22 Muslim village. Are you aware whether there were also guards in village

23 which were occupied by Serbs?

24 A. I cannot confirm that, but probably there were.

25 Q. During the 1992, are you aware of any checkpoints in your area?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Can you be more specific and tell us where these checkpoints were.

3 A. The checkpoints were to be found at almost all the main crossroads

4 between the main road running from Kljuc to Sanski Most, then in the town

5 itself, on the approaches to the town.

6 Q. Did you personally went through any of these checkpoints?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Who manned these checkpoints?

9 A. Some were manned by reservists, some by the police, and there was

10 one with the military police.

11 Q. When you are talking about reservists, can you be again more

12 specific. Whom do you refer as reservists?

13 A. The reservists are people who were civilians until a few days

14 before that. Then they were mobilised and dressed as soldiers. Mostly

15 Serbs, from the Serb population.

16 Q. What was your experience when you passed these checkpoints? Were

17 you identified? What happened to you?

18 A. When they stopped us, we first had to get out of a car, if we were

19 in a car. Then we had to show our documents, our ID card or passport or

20 driving licence. Once I even had to put -- lean my hands against the roof

21 of the car while they searched us, and things like that.

22 Q. To your knowledge, does this same procedure applied to Serbs who

23 passed through these checkpoints?

24 A. No.

25 Q. In 1992 were there any -- any military presence either in your

1 village or in surrounding areas?

2 A. No.

3 Q. Were there any soldiers in Sanski Most?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. In 1992 did you heard any announcements relating to hand over

6 weapons?

7 A. Yes. I heard on the radio.

8 Q. What did you hear on the radio?

9 A. We heard that the Muslim population of the villages of Hrustovo

10 and Vrhpolje had to hand over the weapons that they owned, that they could

11 go to Tomina, a neighbouring village, that nothing would happen to them,

12 and if they didn't do that then they would begin to shell.

13 Q. I will go back to my previous question for a second. You stated

14 there was an army in Sanski Most. Are you aware which unit --

15 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Excuse me.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Fauveau.

17 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] The witness said that there

18 were soldiers and not the army in Sanski Most.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. You are right, Madam Fauveau.

20 Do you confirm that?

21 MS. RICHTEROVA: Yeah. That they -- soldiers in Sanski Most. And

22 he said yes.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Did you say that there was an army in Sanski Most or

24 that there were soldiers -- that there were the military in Sanski Most?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Armed soldiers.

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.

2 MS. RICHTEROVA:

3 Q. Do you know which unit these soldiers belonged to?

4 A. Mostly the 6th Krajina Brigade.

5 Q. How did you learn that they belonged to 6th Krajina Brigade?

6 A. They are inhabitants of Sanski Most who a couple of months earlier

7 were civilians. As a result of the mobilisation, they developed into the

8 6th Krajina Brigade.

9 Q. Have you heard from some other sources which unit was stationed in

10 Sanski Most?

11 A. I learnt it from the people who were living there.

12 Q. Now I will return to the announcement on the radio about weapons.

13 You stated that the announcement said the Muslim population of the

14 villages, et cetera, had to hand over their weapons. When was this

15 announcement approximately? Which month?

16 A. At the end of May 1992.

17 Q. Were there some weapons in your village?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. To your knowledge were these weapons handed over or not?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. At any point in May was your village or -- I am now referring to

22 Hrustovo as such. Was in May Hrustovo shelled?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. When was it? Was it before the announcement to hand over weapons

25 or after?

1 A. To a slight degree, before the announcement. And then afterwards

2 it was continued.

3 Q. Did you have a weapon?

4 A. Indirectly.

5 Q. What do you mean indirectly?

6 A. My father owned one.

7 Q. And what happened to this weapon?

8 A. I handed it in to my neighbours, who later handed it over to the

9 Serbs.

10 Q. And is it correct to say that after you handed over this weapon

11 you left this hamlet and you went to another hamlet within the village of

12 Kljevci?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. When was it?

15 A. At the end of May 1992. I can't say the exact date.

16 Q. How long did you stay in that other settlement?

17 A. A month.

18 Q. How many people were there in that place?

19 A. Together with the women, there were about 50 inhabitants.

20 Q. I will like to refer you to your statement when you said that at

21 one point you went to a very small hamlet with only three houses and then

22 you moved from this -- from that place. Is it correct?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. So what made you to move from that small hamlet with only three

25 houses to another place?

1 A. Well, one day a Serb came who was a neighbour to that small hamlet

2 that I had come to. He was angry. He was nervous. He told us that the

3 inhabitants of Begici, a small hamlet that also belongs to Kljevci, that

4 they had all been killed. Of course men, I'm talking about men. And he

5 was afraid that the same could happen to us. And so he invited us to come

6 over to his home, his house, and we agreed and we headed off to his place.

7 Q. And were you able to stay in his place?

8 A. Briefly. Not for long.

9 Q. Why weren't you able to stay there?

10 A. Because when he brought us there, he went off somewhere. And when

11 he returned, he said that because of his own security, he mustn't continue

12 keeping us in his house.

13 Q. So where did you go?

14 A. Then he told us that we would go to Kenjari, a hamlet inhabited by

15 Muslims, and that they would provide guards to protect us.

16 Q. In -- so now we are in the place where you referred before that

17 there were approximately 50 people; is it correct?

18 A. Yes, including us.

19 Q. How long did you stay in the hamlet of Kenjari?

20 A. About three weeks.

21 Q. And what happened then?

22 A. Around the 27th or the 28th - I am not sure of the date - at dawn

23 we were woken up by our mothers or members of our family who said that the

24 Serbs had entered the village, that they were starting to search the

25 houses, and that they had said that we should all go to the crossroads

1 that was just in front of the village.

2 Q. Did you see these Serbs who went to your village and started

3 searching houses?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Who were they? Were they soldiers or civilians?

6 A. They were armed inhabitants of the village of Kljevci. They were

7 Serbs. They were armed and in uniform, and they were searching the

8 houses.

9 Q. When you say they were in uniforms, what kind of uniforms did they

10 wear?

11 A. SMB, olive-grey. Some of them in camouflage uniforms or coloured

12 ones. I don't know how you call them. Some in jeans. Others had a shirt

13 or a pullover of the same SMB colour.

14 Q. Did you see any insignia on uniforms?

15 A. Yes. They were mostly the insignia of the Serb army.

16 Q. Did you know who were -- who was in command of these people?

17 A. Their commander was there too. He was a Serb, an inhabitant of

18 Kljevci, and his name was Milorad Mijatovic.

19 Q. Did you know this person from before?

20 A. No.

21 Q. So how did you learn his name?

22 A. While we were staying in the hamlet of Kenjari, he would come to

23 that village several times and he spoke to people in that village, so that

24 I learnt his name.

25 Q. This Milorad Mijatovic, was he in a military uniform or in

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1 civilian clothes?

2 A. He always wore a uniform, and he was some sort of an officer.

3 Q. When you say "some sort of an officer," can you be again more

4 specific?

5 A. Maybe a sergeant or something like that. I can't remember

6 exactly.

7 Q. You said that these people searched your houses. Did they

8 found -- did they find anything?

9 A. Not what they were looking for.

10 Q. And what they were looking for?

11 A. They were allegedly looking for weapons, which we didn't have in

12 our possession.

13 Q. You also stated that you were ordered together at the crossroads.

14 Did you do it?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And what happened at that point?

17 A. When they finished with the search of the houses, they came back

18 and they said that all people of age, up to the oldest men, must go for

19 interrogation to their command, whereas the women and children could

20 return to the village.

21 Q. And were you taken for the interrogation?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Did all the people who entered the village and did the searches

24 accompanied you for that interrogation?

25 A. Not all of them. Some of them took us for interrogation.

1 Q. Do you know names of people who accompanied you?

2 A. Some of their names, yes. Zeljko Karanovic. Then there was

3 Nikola Balac. There was a young man called Misko Erak. Then there were

4 two Damjanovic brothers. I don't know their first name.

5 Q. This Zeljko Karanovic, did he wear any kind of uniform?

6 A. Yes. He wore the uniform of reservists of the Serb army.

7 Q. Were -- how many people were gathered for this interrogation?

8 A. Twenty.

9 Q. So you left Kenjari, and where were you taken?

10 A. First they told us this we were going to the school where

11 allegedly their command was; however, we didn't enter the school, we

12 didn't even look inside. We went on beyond the school. We reached the

13 house owned by a Croat whose name was Marko Juric.

14 Q. And when you reached the house, what happened there?

15 A. When we got there, Zeljko was like the leader of the group and he

16 told us to wait in the yard there, that he was allegedly going for the

17 command who would come to interrogate us.

18 Q. Did he return the same day?

19 A. No.

20 Q. So when did he return?

21 A. He returned the next day late in the afternoon.

22 Q. The following day when Karanovic returned, did anybody else came

23 to see you to Marko Juric's house?

24 A. A man came -- actually, three of them. One of them introduced

25 himself and said his name was Vlado Vrkes, and he said that he was the

1 president of the SDS in Sanski Most. He asked us what we were doing

2 there. The older men answered that we had been brought there for

3 interrogation. He said that we had nothing to fear and he told us that we

4 would most probably be exchanged for Serbs in Eastern Bosnia and that

5 nothing would happen to us.

6 Q. And after this, the person who introduced himself as Vlado Vrkes

7 left; is that correct?

8 A. Yes. He stayed there very briefly and he left.

9 Q. You also said that Zeljko Karanovic returned the following day,

10 the day when Vlado Vrkes came to see you. After Zeljko Karanovic

11 returned, what happened then?

12 A. When he arrived, he said that we should get ready, that we were

13 going to Blazevici for interrogation, where allegedly their command was.

14 Q. I would like to ask you if you would be able to point at the map

15 where the hamlet of Blazevici was or is?

16 MS. RICHTEROVA: It is also again not marked on this map.

17 A. Somewhere around here roughly.

18 Q. And --

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Can you write a "B" there, please, where you think

20 that this hamlet is.

21 THE WITNESS: [Marks]

22 JUDGE AGIUS: And now, sir, next to that "B," put your initials,

23 please, and also put them where you had put the letter "H" at the

24 beginning of your testimony.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Just initials again?

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, please.

2 THE WITNESS: [Marks]

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

4 MS. RICHTEROVA: Okay. Now we can remove the map.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: This will go under seal, sir. You don't have to

6 worry because it will --

7 MS. RICHTEROVA: But it was on the screen.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Pardon?

9 THE REGISTRAR: It's not broadcasted.

10 MS. RICHTEROVA:

11 Q. When you reached this -- before you reached Blazevici hamlet, did

12 you -- did anybody else join your group of people?

13 A. Yes. Just after we had passed through the hamlet of Zukici, where

14 the Zukici family lived, the route took us through a small wood, and when

15 we emerged another two Serb soldiers came out of the woods.

16 Q. When you said "soldiers," did they wear uniform?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Did you see any insignia on them?

19 A. Yes. The three -- the Serbian three-coloured flag on their caps.

20 Q. Do you still remember their names?

21 A. Mico Djukic and his brother Milutin.

22 Q. Did you know these people before, or how did you learn their

23 names?

24 A. I didn't know them before. When they joined us, we noticed they

25 were going behind us. And then I asked my friends when we were staying at

1 Kenjari and they told me that their names were Djukic.

2 Q. So after these two persons joined your group, you reached the

3 hamlet of Blazevici. What happened there?

4 A. First we were taken in front of a house, and then when we arrived

5 we saw that nothing had remained of that house. And then we headed for

6 another house. It was half a stable, half a house, actually. And Zeljko

7 broke into the house by kicking the door, and he looked into it briefly

8 and said that we could go in and that he would go fetch the command for it

9 to interrogate us.

10 Q. Did you all go in in the house?

11 A. No.

12 Q. So who went there? Who went inside of the house?

13 A. I went into the house and a few younger men who were with us. And

14 the older ones were sitting in the front of the house and were arguing

15 with them whether they would go in or not.

16 Q. Do you know the name of the owner of that house?

17 A. I think his name was Dujo Banovic. But he moved out of that

18 house, perhaps in the '70s.

19 Q. And how did you learn this name?

20 A. When I spoke with some friends and told them what had happened,

21 then they told me that it must have been that house.

22 Q. So we stopped when you said that some of you went inside of that

23 house. What happened then after you entered that house?

24 A. When I went in, some were already sitting there on a sheet in the

25 hay. They sat on that hay. And then I approached the window. There were

1 two very small windows. I opened one of them, and one of my relatives

2 told me that it would be better to shut the window and not to create

3 problems. And then I moved towards an old stove, where there was a

4 container with something inside. Whether it was flour or sugar or salt, I

5 do not know -- I don't know. When I moved away, these people were at the

6 door still arguing with the Serbs outside, whether they would go in or

7 not. And then all of a sudden they began shouting, "A bomb." And then we

8 heard an impact on the -- on planks.

9 Q. When you heard this noise, what was your reaction? What did you

10 do?

11 A. I jumped out of the window.

12 Q. And what followed after you jumped out of the window?

13 A. We heard an explosion. And when I got up -- the window was fairly

14 high from the ground. And when I got up, Mico Djukic ran up to the corner

15 of the house and he fired at me and at another person.

16 Q. He started firing at you. So what did you do at that point?

17 A. I bent behind a big stone that was there in front of the house,

18 and the other friend started running away. When the firing stopped, I

19 went with him, because under the house there was a big hole, about 20

20 metres in diameter. There were lots of -- there was growth all over it.

21 There were weeds. He had fallen. I ran up to him, and then my friend

22 emerged from the hole first. There was about clear ground from 200 metres

23 from that hole near a woods, and my friend started running away. Then

24 Mico ran towards us. He had an easier way to go. He didn't have to go

25 through the weeds. And when I emerged from that hole, I was about 5

1 metres or 10 metres from Mico Djukic. Luckily for me he had already fired

2 all his bullets. And when he saw me, he was to have changed his bullets,

3 put in new bullets. I saw that I had no opportunity to run away because

4 he would have hit me, as I was 200 metres away. And then I jumped back

5 into the hole from which I had emerged.

6 Q. You jumped in the hole. How far from the house was this hole?

7 A. As I said, about 20 metres in diameter, the hole's width was. And

8 the house was on the very edge of that hole. About 20 metres from the

9 house.

10 Q. Could you see what went on in the house?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Could you hear what went on in the house?

13 A. No.

14 Q. The answer was yes.

15 THE INTERPRETER: So, sorry. Yes.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Exactly. I heard "da". I know that that was yes.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

18 MS. RICHTEROVA:

19 Q. So what did you hear from the hole? What was happening in the

20 house or in front of the house?

21 A. Mico, who was shooting at the person I mentioned, he returned to

22 the entrance of the house, and then people were being thrown out of the

23 house. They were told to put up their hands. And after an argument and

24 swearing, I heard a blast of fire, and it was directed against those

25 people.

1 Q. You were still hiding in that hole when you heard the firing. How

2 long does it -- how long did it last?

3 A. About two minutes.

4 Q. After they stopped shooting, what else did you hear?

5 A. First I heard the Mico who saw me going back into the hole, he

6 said there was someone else there in the valley, and then he called me,

7 "Come out of the hole or I'll come down and slit your throat."

8 Q. So at that point did you come out?

9 A. No.

10 Q. What followed?

11 A. Then I heard from the opposite side of the hole where I was in

12 that he was going down, coming down. It is the part below the house. He

13 was climbing down. I heard his steps and the twigs breaking underneath

14 his feet. There he found a person. He fired two bullets, and then I

15 learnt that that person had been killed. Then he came back from that

16 hole, and then he tried -- he asked for another bomb from his soldier

17 friends. And luckily for me they didn't have any more bombs. And then

18 they started shooting at that hole. Luckily I was not hit.

19 Q. Before you -- when you jumped out of the window, you said that

20 there was someone who jumped together with you. Do you know who was him?

21 What was his name?

22 A. Ina Muharem [As interpreted].

23 Q. Did you say Ina Muharem?

24 A. Kenjar Muharem.

25 Q. Thank you. After they stopped shooting in the hole in which you

1 were, what did you hear or what -- what did follow?

2 A. Then they began to search those people who had been killed,

3 looking for money or I don't know what. I don't think that they actually

4 found money, because these were very poor people. Some of them were

5 employed in Slovenia and they had Slovenian ID. Then they were swearing

6 and so on. Then they began carrying them into the house. I know that

7 they were saying that one or some of them were heavy, and they kept -- and

8 they said one of them had 100 kilos.

9 Q. After you heard that they took them inside, what happened then?

10 A. They brought them into the house, and then the house started

11 burning. They had set fire to the house.

12 Q. After you saw -- were you able from the hole, were you able to see

13 that the house was on fire from the hole?

14 A. [No interpretation]

15 Q. So after the house was set on fire or started burning, how long

16 the soldiers or the people stayed --

17 MS. RICHTEROVA: Yeah. There was -- there wasn't -- excuse me.

18 My question was: Were you able to see the house on --

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.

20 MS. RICHTEROVA: And there was an answer yes, but it's not on

21 there.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, you are right.

23 Again, for the record, could you -- could I ask you, Madam

24 Richterova, to repeat your question, and to the witness to repeat his

25 answer.

1 I'm sorry about this, sir, but unfortunately your answer did not

2 appear in the transcript.

3 Madam Richterova, please go ahead.

4 MS. RICHTEROVA:

5 Q. Were you able to see from the hole that the house was on fire?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. After the house started burning, how long -- how long did the

8 soldiers or the people who were at the place stay there?

9 A. They stayed about an hour or two, until it became dark. It was

10 evening there.

11 Q. After they left, what did you do?

12 A. I still -- I was still in the hole. I wasn't sure whether they

13 had left or not.

14 Q. And how long in -- how long did you stay in that hole?

15 A. Until the following day at dawn.

16 Q. And where did you go?

17 A. Then I moved 200 or 300 metres into a woods. I don't think it

18 would have been a good idea for me to have stayed near that house.

19 Q. Which village did you want to reach?

20 A. I wanted to return to my village of Hrustovo.

21 Q. And is it correct to state that at the end you managed to get to

22 Tomina?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. On the way from Blazevici to Tomina, were you able to see houses

25 in villages which you passed?

1 A. Yes. I stayed in a house -- I spent the night in a stable. I was

2 in my own house. And then I visited a few more houses.

3 Q. What was the -- what was the condition of that houses which you

4 saw in your hamlet?

5 A. They were burnt down.

6 Q. After you reached Tomina, were there some other refugees?

7 A. Yes. From Hrustovo and Vrhpolje and partially from Kamicak.

8 Q. What was their nationality?

9 A. They were all Muslims.

10 Q. How long did you stay in Tomina?

11 A. Four days.

12 Q. And what made you to move from Tomina?

13 A. I didn't understand the question.

14 Q. Why did you move from Tomina?

15 A. I left because in the morning the Serb army and police came.

16 There was a police vehicle there and had a loudspeaker, saying that all

17 refugees from Kamicak, Vrhpolje, and Tomina should go to the crossroads

18 nearby and should wait there.

19 Q. You said the Serb army and police came. How did you know or why

20 do you say that it was the Serb army?

21 A. Simply because they were Serbs. They can't be Hungarians in

22 Bosnia-Herzegovina.

23 Q. You went to the crossroad, and where were you taken then?

24 A. Then we were transported by bus to the hall of the former Krings

25 factory in Sanski Most, and about 600 people gathered there, men, women,

1 and children.

2 Q. How long did you stay in Krings?

3 A. A month.

4 Q. Did women also stay with you in Krings?

5 A. The women spent one night, and then the next day they were

6 transported to Eastern or Central Bosnia, to Gracanica.

7 Q. Can you briefly tell us the condition in Krings. Where were you

8 taken? How does it look -- how did it look like?

9 A. It was an empty hall of the former company. There was a faucet

10 there and several pallets and nothing else.

11 Q. Where did you sleep?

12 A. We slept on the pallets.

13 Q. Did you have water?

14 A. Yes. There was a sink inside.

15 Q. Did you have toilets?

16 A. No. We went to the toilet in the hole of a machine that was

17 there.

18 Q. What about food? What kind of food did you receive when in

19 Krings?

20 A. At the beginning our mothers or relatives would bring us food. At

21 the beginning my mother was able to enter, and later on she was not able

22 to enter.

23 Q. So the food was provided by your relatives; is it correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Who guarded you in Krings?

1 A. At the beginning, Serb soldiers. About 15 days later, the police

2 came.

3 Q. How were you treated in -- while you were in Krings?

4 A. While we were guarded by these soldiers, no one touched us, no one

5 beat us, no one mistreated us. But when the police came, then it all

6 started. They began beating and torturing us.

7 Q. When you are saying "beating and torturing," what -- did they use

8 any tools while beating you or did they use just their hands?

9 A. With batons, with rifles, with boots, with the rod of a rifle.

10 Q. While in Krings, were you interrogated?

11 A. Yes. One day I think the main person from the police in Sanski

12 Most came, and he said in the next few days interrogation would take

13 place, and then there would be a procedure according to which some

14 people would be let go, would be released, and others not.

15 Q. What kind of questions were you asked?

16 A. The questions were: Where were you? What did you do? What did

17 you do in the past months? Whom were you with? Did you have weapons?

18 What did you do?

19 Q. During the time you were in Krings, did you witness anyone --

20 anyone who had died?

21 A. Yes. A man died as a result of a beating. He was beaten up, and

22 the next morning he died.

23 Q. Did you see who did the beating?

24 A. I apologise. The people who brought him, it was probably them,

25 they beat him and the guards that were already there.

1 Q. You said "the people who brought him." Where was he brought

2 from?

3 A. I'm not sure. Probably from his home.

4 Q. Do you know the name of this person?

5 A. Edhem Music or Edhem Masic. I don't know. I didn't know him

6 from earlier.

7 Q. From whom did you learn the name?

8 A. A neighbour of -- one of his neighbours was there, and he knew

9 him.

10 Q. And is it correct to state that you were released on 4th of

11 August, and on 18th of August you joined a convoy to Travnik?

12 A. Yes, that is correct.

13 Q. When you were released on 4th of August, who released you?

14 A. One of the guards released me, a policeman. He brought a slip of

15 paper, on the basis of which I was released.

16 Q. In 1996 did you participate on the on-site investigation and

17 exhumation of remains of bodies in Sanski Most, particularly in this

18 place?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Was it -- was it in January when you were in Sanski Most?

21 A. Yes.

22 MS. RICHTEROVA: I only want to show the witness on-site

23 investigation report which already has been exhibited under P795. And I'm

24 showing these documents to the witness just for completeness of this whole

25 exhumation procedure.

1 Q. This is an on-site investigation report in which it's stated that

2 you were present with other people in Sanski Most, and among them was

3 Judge Draganovic and others, as you can see on the -- in the document.

4 And you took them to the Blazevici hamlet where this incident happened; is

5 it correct?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Based on this on-site investigation, is it correct to state that

8 you also -- you also provided your statement to the Judge Draganovic?

9 A. Yes.

10 MS. RICHTEROVA: Then there is a document which has been exhibited

11 P796. I don't think that we need to show this document to the witness

12 because he wasn't present during the medical examination. But this is the

13 report which describes the location of the mass grave, the exhumation, and

14 the medical examination with the conclusion that it is evident from the

15 bones recovered in the torched house in Kenjari that they are human bones

16 belonging to a number of persons of different ages. The forensic experts

17 were unable to specify the exact number of the deceased in the torched

18 house because not all bones had been recovered in the course of the

19 excavation. And it's stated that the bones were exposed to high

20 temperature.

21 And then I have the last document. If we could show this document

22 the witness. It is -- excuse me. It is P797. This document is official

23 report dated 22nd of October, 1996. And it's a report on forensic and

24 operative measures taken and were carried out during the exhumations and

25 identification of bodies. And I only want to show the page with names of

1 people who were identified in mass grave Vrhpolje 9. Can we show the

2 witness page number 0 --

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Sorry, Madam Richterova. Are you sure it's Vrhpolje

4 or it's Hrustovo 9?

5 MS. RICHTEROVA: It states -- yeah. This is -- it's Hrustovo 9.

6 And in the English translation -- sorry. It's my -- it's my fault. I

7 apologise. It's Hrustovo 9.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Don't worry. Nothing is going to happen to you.

9 MS. RICHTEROVA: Yes. Hrustovo 9 mass grave.

10 And if we can show the witness page 00454592.

11 Q. Can you have a look at this list of names and confirm whether

12 these people are -- these names are those of people who were with you in

13 Blazevici on that particular day?

14 A. There were 18 of us -- of them with me. Yes.

15 MS. RICHTEROVA: I have concluded my direct examination. I don't

16 have further questions.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Don't -- don't rush, because I think before

18 you start with your cross-examination we're going to have a break.

19 MR. ZECEVIC: Your Honour, no. Your Honours, I have -- I have a

20 certain --

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Oh.

22 MR. ZECEVIC: I have a certain objection to the transcript.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Please go ahead, Mr. Zecevic.

24 MR. ZECEVIC: Because the answer of the witness was "The first

25 18. The rest I don't know." And it's -- it's line 64, 5. He says

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1 exactly: "The first 18, yes. And the rest I don't know."

2 JUDGE AGIUS: That's what he answered.

3 MR. ZECEVIC: That is right. And that's not in the transcript.

4 So if my learned colleague can clarify that.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Here we have "There were 18 of us -- of them with

6 me. Yes," yes. So it's completely different.

7 MS. RICHTEROVA: Yes. I can ask the witness to clarify.

8 Q. I ask you to have a look at names under Hrustovo 9 mass graves.

9 There follow Hrustovo 10 single graves. And I do not expect that you know

10 the people. Because this is a complete list. If you know the other

11 names, please state you know the other names. But my question was

12 specifically about the names under Hrustovo 9, mass grave.

13 A. That is whey had in mind, Hrustovo 9. There are 18 men there.

14 And after that, this individual grave, Hrustovo 10, I don't know about

15 those men.

16 Q. It's correct. My --

17 JUDGE AGIUS: That's clear, yes.

18 MS. RICHTEROVA: My question was only to Hrustovo.

19 Q. Did you recognise under these 18 names people who were in -- in

20 Blazevici with you?

21 A. Yes.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. We can stop here for the time being. We'll

23 have a break of 15 minutes, resuming at twenty to 6.00. Thank you.

24 --- Recess taken at 5.21 p.m.

25 --- On resuming at 5.45 p.m.

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Who is going first? Yes.

2 MR. ACKERMAN: Thank you, Your Honour.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: You are now going to be cross-examined by

4 Mr. Ackerman, who is the lead counsel for Radoslav Brdjanin. Please

5 understand that Mr. Ackerman is doing his duty here. And the rule is that

6 unless I stop you from answering the question, you are expected to answer

7 the question.

8 Okay. Mr. Ackerman, please go ahead.

9 MR. ACKERMAN: I'd like to go into private session very briefly,

10 Your Honour.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Let's go into private session for a while.

12 [Private session]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25

1 [Open session]

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

3 MR. ACKERMAN: I'd like the witness to have an opportunity to see

4 his statement to the OTP of 18 March 2000.

5 Q. Sir, I think the part that I want to refer you to you will find --

6 let's see if I can help you -- you'll find it over on page 3. It's the

7 fourth paragraph down, beginning with the word "Buduci Da Sam." Do you

8 find the sentence I'm referring to?

9 A. Unfortunately not yet.

10 Q. Page 3, fourth paragraph from the top, you'll see the word "Buduci

11 Da Sam." Are you on a page that has a "3" at the bottom right-hand

12 corner?

13 A. No. I was looking at something else.

14 Q. I think you've now found what I'm referring to, have you?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. All right. What -- the English translation that I have indicates

17 that you told the representatives of the Office of the Prosecutor that the

18 war in Hrustovo lasted only one month.

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Can you elaborate on that at all? Can you tell us what you mean

21 that the war in Hrustovo only lasted a month?

22 A. Let me see. After the first shooting that started there in our

23 village, the shelling started the same day. The second or third day there

24 was the surrender of weapons. And then the Serb army entered the

25 village. There was a small-scale resistance. As far as I know, only one

1 man opened fire, but this I heard from others. Then the women and

2 children and some men were driven to the Tomina village. Some of the

3 men. The majority of the men were taken to camps of Manjaca or Betonirka

4 or to some schools. And then after that there was a small amount of

5 resistance. And after that -- after a month, nothing.

6 Q. All right. Thank you for that.

7 MR. ACKERMAN: I'd like the registrar to give me the next two

8 numbers for Brdjanin exhibits, please.

9 THE REGISTRAR: The next one is DB91.

10 MR. ACKERMAN: 91?

11 THE REGISTRAR: Yes. And then 92, of course.

12 MR. ACKERMAN: Yes. If the usher could assist me now. This stack

13 is all DB91. Give one of them to the Prosecutor and then give the rest of

14 them to Ms. Registrar, and then when she gets through doing what she's

15 doing, give one of each to the witness, please. And I only have two of

16 them marked, so ...

17 MS. RICHTEROVA: Can we have BD92.

18 MR. ACKERMAN: Yes. It's BD92.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Not BT92, but DB or BD 92. Okay. It has been

20 corrected. We were still in time.

21 MR. ACKERMAN:

22 Q. Sir, you have before you two pieces of paper, DB91, DB92. One of

23 them is the first page from your statement to the Office of the

24 Prosecutor. The second is the last page from your statement with Judge

25 Draganovic. And my question is just very, very simple: Just confirm for

1 me, if you will, that on both of those documents the signature that

2 appears there is your signature. I should say, one of the signatures is

3 your signature on each document.

4 A. I do confirm it, yes.

5 Q. All right. On the second document, does the name Zijad Ibric

6 appear there anywhere, BD92, the one you're looking at.

7 Your Honour, I'm going to withdraw that question. We can all see

8 that.

9 MR. ACKERMAN: I have no further questions of this witness.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Ackerman.

11 Mr. Zecevic or Madam Fauveau, I'm sorry.

12 As you may have gathered, sir, the cross-examination of the first

13 of the two Defence teams is over. You are now going to be cross-examined

14 by the Defence team -- by Madam Fauveau, who is co-counsel defending

15 General Momir Talic.

16 [Trial Chamber confers]

17 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

18 JUDGE AGIUS: [Microphone not activated]

19 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, Your Honour.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. The documents will go under seal.

21 I also noticed for the record that the last two minutes, three

22 minutes there has been confusion in -- whether it's BT -- DB or BD. In

23 some instances it's referred to as BD, and in other instances it's

24 referred to as DB. We have to be clear --

25 MR. ACKERMAN: I think we're doing DB and DT.

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Exactly. But they are DB's but sometimes they

2 appear as BD.

3 MR. ACKERMAN: I neglected to move the admission of those two

4 documents, Your Honour.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: They will be admitted later, Mr. Ackerman.

6 Yes, Madam Fauveau. Sorry for interrupting you.

7 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

8 Cross-examined by Ms. Fauveau-Ivanovic:

9 Q. [Interpretation] Sir, you spoke of checkpoints that existed in

10 your area. Could you tell us when those checkpoints were established.

11 A. I can't give you a precise answer, but I think around the middle

12 of April or the beginning of May.

13 Q. You said that reservists, policemen were on those checkpoints, and

14 that at one checkpoint there was the military police. Could you tell us

15 where that checkpoint manned by military policemen was.

16 A. The military police were manning -- were stationed at the

17 crossroads of the Sanski Most-Prijedor main road and the other road

18 leading to Palanka, or rather, Bosanska Krupa.

19 Q. Did you pass through that checkpoint?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. So you saw those men that you describe as military policemen; is

22 that right?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Could you describe their uniforms.

25 A. They were wearing white belts, and that is a clear sign that they

1 were military police. But otherwise, they were wearing camouflage

2 uniforms or whatever they call them.

3 Q. Did you see the insignia on their uniforms?

4 A. No. I didn't look closely.

5 Q. And could you tell us approximately on what date you passed

6 through that checkpoint.

7 A. Ten years later I really cannot remember the exact date.

8 Q. Do you know whether it was in April or in May 1992?

9 A. I think it was still in April.

10 Q. You mentioned reservists at other checkpoints. When you say

11 "reservists," do you have the Territorial Defence in mind?

12 A. I mean the reservists who were the Serb army. Simply they were

13 people that I knew. A man, for instance, who used to be a butcher

14 suddenly became a reservist. I don't know what you mean when you say "the

15 Territorial Defence."

16 Q. Do you have in front of you the statement that you gave to the

17 Bosnian authorities in 1996?

18 A. The last part.

19 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the Prosecutor please

20 give the witness the statement to the Bosnian authorities dated the 12th

21 of January, 1996.

22 Q. In the middle of that page, you spoke of Milorad Mijatovic, who

23 was allegedly the commander of the Serb villagers who were organised in

24 the Territorial Defence. I'm referring to that Territorial Defence that

25 you mentioned on page 1 of that statement.

1 A. That means the Serbian Territorial Defence.

2 Q. Yes. Yes, I'm talking about the Territorial Defence. I didn't

3 indicate of what ethnicity they were. Do you agree that the reservists

4 you are mentioning and who were manning the checkpoint belonged to that

5 Territorial Defence, allegedly Serb?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. You said that there were soldiers in Sanski Most.

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And you said that those soldiers were also civilians who had been

10 mobilised; is that right?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Those mobilised civilians, did they also belong to the Territorial

13 Defence?

14 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness repeat his answer. I'm sorry.

15 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. When you say that the soldiers were in Sanski Most, which period

17 are you referring to?

18 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, Madam Fauveau. We have -- because we

19 have a slight problem here.

20 Sir, you were asked the following question: Those mobilised

21 civilians, did they also belong to the Territorial Defence? You gave an

22 answer, but the interpreter wasn't -- could not hear you well, and we

23 would like to know what your answer was.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said possibly.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you.

1 Sorry, Madam Fauveau. You may repeat your question now, the last

2 one, and it was "When you say that the soldiers were in Sanski Most, which

3 period are you referring to?"

4 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. And

5 thank you for intervening.

6 A. A smaller number of soldiers were there from the very beginning of

7 1992, but for instance, I don't know exactly. As of March, there were

8 larger numbers because they had withdrawn from Croatia.

9 Q. And during this period of March and April 1992, did you go to

10 Sanski Most?

11 A. Yes, but not very frequently.

12 Q. Did you personally see those soldiers?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Could you describe their uniforms?

15 A. They were wearing SMB olive-grey of the former Yugoslav People's

16 Army. Then some were in camouflage uniform.

17 Q. Is it correct to say that in Sanski Most there were people wearing

18 different uniforms?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. You spoke of the return of weapons that the Serbs announced on the

21 radio calling on the Muslims to hand over their weapons; is that right?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And you handed over a gun that belonged to your father to a

24 neighbour; is that right?

25 A. That's correct.

1 Q. And this neighbour, to whom you gave this weapon, he was a Muslim?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And do you know what he did with that weapon?

4 A. Later on I heard from these other women who were in the hamlet of

5 Handanovici that he took the rifles to Zegar. You could see that on the

6 map. And he handed them over to the Serbs and he never came back.

7 Q. You personally did not see that person leave your village to go to

8 Zegar, did you?

9 A. I did not.

10 Q. During the shelling of Hrustovo that you referred to, you yourself

11 were not in Hrustovo, were you?

12 A. For a while I was.

13 Q. And during this first period, was there any damage in Hrustovo?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. You said that when you left your village you left to go to a small

16 hamlet and a Serb came, somebody called Djurica Mijatovic; is that right?

17 A. That's right.

18 Q. Did this Mijatovic also belong to the Serb army?

19 A. He did.

20 Q. To the army or to the Territorial Defence?

21 A. I am unable to say. I don't know.

22 Q. This Djurica Mijatovic, was he dressed in a uniform?

23 A. He had a shirt, an SMB shirt as part of a uniform, and the bottom

24 were jeans.

25 Q. So he wasn't wearing the kind of uniform that regular soldiers

1 wore; is that right?

2 A. That is right.

3 Q. When you mention the Serb army, you mean any Serb who was wearing

4 any part of a uniform and carrying a weapon; is that right?

5 A. That's right.

6 Q. And this Djurica Mijatovic, he told you to leave that hamlet and

7 you went to Kenjari from there; is that right?

8 A. No. We went to his house.

9 Q. And from his house to Kenjari; is that right?

10 A. Yes, that's right.

11 Q. Weren't you escorted by Serbs from Djurica Mijatovic's house

12 towards Kenjari?

13 A. We were.

14 Q. And who were those Serbs who were accompanying you?

15 A. They were local Serbs.

16 Q. They were also members of the Territorial Defence or of the Serb

17 army; is that right?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And along that route --

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Ackerman.

21 MR. ACKERMAN: The full answer didn't make it, I'm told. The

22 question was: Who were those Serbs who were accompanying you? And I

23 understand his answer was, "They were local Serbs from the village of

24 Kljevci," I think or something like that.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Is that what you -- thank you for your observation,

1 Mr. Ackerman.

2 Sir, is that what you answered to the question that Madam Fauveau

3 put to you?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't quite hear what was said,

5 what Mr. Ackerman said.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: You were asked: "And who were those Serbs who were

7 accompanying you?" What was your answer?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Serbs. Local Serbs from the village

9 of Kljevci.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. That clarifies it. Thank you.

11 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. On the journey to Kenjari, you had no problems, did you?

13 A. No, we didn't.

14 Q. You said that one day the Serb army came to Kenjari to look for

15 weapons; is that right?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Did you recognise any of the people who came to Kenjari on that

18 day?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. You recognised Zeljko Karanovic and Nikola Balac; is that right?

21 A. I didn't know them in person, but these others said who was who.

22 I mean, my relatives and friends who lived in that village, they knew them

23 all because they had grown up together there.

24 Q. And these persons, Zeljko Karanovic and Nikola Balac, were also

25 inhabitants of a village in the area of Hrustovo, Kenjari, Kljevci?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And those persons were also members of the Serb Territorial

3 Defence.

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. You said that you stopped at the house of Marko Juric.

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. But if you look at the statement that you gave to the Bosnian

8 authorities, on page 2 you said that you were ordered to go to the house

9 of Marko Blazevic.

10 A. That must be a mistake, because I didn't know the surname of that

11 man. But it later emerged that his name was Juric and not Blazevic, and

12 Blazevic lives further up.

13 Q. [No interpretation]

14 A. [No interpretation]

15 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment.

16 Q. Do they also come from your area?

17 A. Yes.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Go ahead.

19 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] I will repeat the question.

20 Q. Mico Djukic and Milovan Djukic, do they also come from your area?

21 A. I think we are mixing up the names. One was called Mico. His

22 legal name was Milutin. And his brother's name was Rade, as far as I

23 know.

24 Q. And this Mico and Rade Djukic, were they from your region?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. And they also belonged to the Serb defence -- Territorial Defence.

2 A. I am going to say the Serbian army. Now, whether they were in the

3 Territorial Defence or not, I can't say.

4 Q. But that is really because you make no distinction between the

5 Territorial Defence, paramilitaries, and the Serb army; is that right?

6 A. I'm unable to judge who is what.

7 Q. When you were in the house of Dujo Banovic, you heard somebody cry

8 out, "A bomb."

9 A. That's right.

10 Q. And then you heard the explosion.

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. But you personally didn't see the person who threw the bomb.

13 A. No.

14 Q. You said that when you jumped out of the window that you were able

15 to hear what was going on in the house but that you were not able to see

16 what was happening; is that right?

17 A. That's right.

18 Q. And at a certain point in time you heard shots.

19 A. Later when they forced them out of the house they executed them.

20 Q. At that point were you able to see the Muslims outside the house?

21 A. No.

22 Q. And were you able to see the Serbs outside the house?

23 A. No.

24 Q. So really you didn't see the people firing the shots.

25 A. No.

1 Q. You said that when you were in the Krings camp, during the first

2 two weeks you were guarded by military reservists. Is that right?

3 A. They were not military policemen. They were ordinary reservists.

4 Q. You said that those reservists didn't beat you; is that right?

5 A. That's right.

6 Q. And while those reservists were guarding you, you received food

7 from members of your family; is that right?

8 A. Yes, that's right.

9 Q. And the members of your family, were they able to come and see you

10 and visit you?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And in fact during those two weeks in Krings when the

13 reservists -- army reservists were there, you were not mistreated; is that

14 right?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. You said that on the day you were released, a guard brought a

17 document and that you were released on the basis of that document. Did

18 you receive a document when you were released?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Do you know what was written on that document?

21 A. It was a discharge paper. I don't know exactly what it said. It

22 said that I was being released from Krings, my name and surname, and the

23 date.

24 Q. Thank you very much. I have no further questions.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: [Microphone not activated] Is there re-examination?

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1 MS. RICHTEROVA: No, Your Honours.

2 [Trial Chamber confers]

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Sir, there being no further questions, that brings

4 your testimony here to an end. I wish to thank you on behalf of the

5 Tribunal for having come over here to give evidence in this trial. You

6 will now be escorted out of the courtroom by the court usher and returned

7 to your country. If you need any assistance, please let us know. Thank

8 you.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you

10 [The witness withdrew]

11 JUDGE AGIUS: [Microphone not activated] Anything else before we

12 close?

13 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Anything else before we close?

15 Okay. I thank you all for your cooperation. We will be sitting

16 again on Monday in the afternoon, and we'll take it up from there.

17 The next witness is 7.62; correct?

18 MS. RICHTEROVA: Yes, Your Honour.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you. Have a nice weekend.

20 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned

21 at 6.22 p.m., to be reconvened on Monday,

22 the 8th day of July, 2002, at 2.15 p.m.

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