1 Friday, 22 November 2002

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 2.16 p.m.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Madam Registrar, would you call the case, please?

6 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. Good afternoon, Your Honours.

7 This is case number IT-99-36-T, the Prosecutor versus Radoslav Brdjanin.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you.

9 Mr. Brdjanin, can you hear me in a language that you can

10 understand?

11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours. I

12 hear and I understand.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. You may sit down. Appearances for the

14 Prosecution?

15 MS. SUTHERLAND: Ann Sutherland for the Prosecution assisted by

16 Denise Gustin, case manager.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you and good afternoon to you. Appearances

18 for Radoslav Brdjanin?

19 MR. ACKERMAN: Good afternoon, Your Honours. I'm John Ackerman

20 with Milan Trbojevic and Marela Jevtovic.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. Any preliminaries? No? Yes?

22 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes, Your Honour. Ms. Korner is unfortunately

23 unable to be here to address Your Honours in relation to the sitting days.

24 We have been advised that the plenary may not now be heard on the 2nd and

25 3rd of December and may still be held on the 11th, 12th and 13th of

1 December.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: It will be held apparently on the 12th. That won't

3 change our decision to sit on the 11th, 12th and 13th so we will be

4 sitting on those days.

5 MS. SUTHERLAND: And also on the 4th of December? I'm sorry, our

6 schedule will not change?

7 JUDGE AGIUS: No. What I may suggest to you but it depends on a

8 reply I'm expecting from my secretary is if you can also sit or get a

9 witness or do something on the 3rd, that's Tuesday, then probably we would

10 be able to do that but I'm -- I was hoping to have an answer before the

11 sitting. Unfortunately, I don't. We won't be sitting Thursday and Friday

12 of next week and Monday, the following Monday, the 2nd, I think.

13 MS. SUTHERLAND: That's the 28th and 29th of November and the 2nd

14 of December.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.

16 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, I'm very happy to say that we will

17 still sit on the 11th, 12th and 13th of December.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Definitely.

19 MS. SUTHERLAND: Because I was instructed to register the

20 strongest protest.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Definitely, we can't stay playing around with dates

22 like that. We took a decision yesterday and I will not budge from it.

23 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, we may not be able to get a witness

24 for the 3rd of December because all these witnesses have been contacted

25 and the dates have been changed.

1 JUDGE AGIUS: That suits me fine actually because I have one of

2 the other cases that needs -- has three motions that need to be decided in

3 it and I think that's the only day I have on which I can really dedicate

4 some extra hours but if it is necessary to sit on the 3rd, we will sit on

5 the 3rd.

6 [Trial Chamber confers]

7 JUDGE AGIUS: It has been decided now that it will be on the 12th.

8 MS. SUTHERLAND: And the Prosecution will let the Chamber know as

9 soon as possible and Mr. Ackerman if we are able to have a witness here

10 for the 3rd of December but given the recent change I don't think that's

11 going to be a possibility.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Just inform me and later on during the sitting, I

13 should know precisely where I stand on the 3rd because much depends on

14 others. So the next witness, I think, if I remember well, enjoys

15 some -- yes, Mr. Ackerman, I'm sorry. I didn't recognise you before.

16 MR. ACKERMAN: Judge, I have two rather brief matters. I filed

17 today and there was a courtesy copy I think given to you of my first

18 response to the Rule 92 bis motion where I discuss four of the witnesses

19 and I'll continue to work and file the rest as soon as I possibly can.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.

21 MR. ACKERMAN: Also, just in the interests of making the record as

22 accurate as possible, when I suggested to the witness yesterday that there

23 was a unit with a 90 per cent attrition rate, I was incorrect about that.

24 I went and checked the transcript. The testimony is at page 11068. There

25 was a regiment of 1.000 soldiers, 928 deserted from that regiment so the

1 actual desertion rate was 92.8 per cent rather than 90 per cent. And

2 that's all I have.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. The witness --

4 MS. SUTHERLAND: Before we proceed with the witness may I tender

5 into evidence the photographs and maps from Witness 7.204?

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, please. Please do.

7 MS. SUTHERLAND: Therefore, Exhibit P1517-1 to 19 -- sorry, 1 to

8 21, is P1517/S210. And where the photographs that were also marked is

9 210/S will then become P1517/210/S or whatever the photograph number was.

10 I think it will be clear when the photographs have been marked. Exhibit

11 number P1518 will be what was S211 and S211/S so that will be P1518/2 --

12 S211, P1518/S is -- /S 211/S. It's very confusing. P1519 -- Your Honour

13 this was in relation to the agreement I thought we had in court yesterday

14 as to how the exhibits would be numbered. They would have our number,

15 then slash, the Stakic number.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.

17 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I don't know what's going on I'm

18 totally confused.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: You're not the only one but I would suggest that you

20 interrupt Ms. Sutherland, the least possible, because if she gets confused

21 too then we are in a big mess.

22 THE REGISTRAR: I actually received the numbering from the --

23 JUDGE AGIUS: The important thing is this.

24 MS. SUTHERLAND: To have it on the record.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: To have it on the record, exactly and if the

1 Registrar is following the chronological and logical order of your

2 presentation, then I am happy, I don't need to know more. I know that you

3 may not be as happy as I am but you can check afterwards, Mr. Ackerman.

4 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, Your Honour, the important thing is that when

5 one looks at yesterday's transcript, one should be able by the designation

6 that were made in the record yesterday to be able to find what it is we

7 are talking about.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: I think if I can read Ms. Sutherland well that's

9 what she's doing.

10 MR. ACKERMAN: If we are changing numbers today.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't think we are changing from what I could

12 follow.

13 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, it relates to the witness who

14 testified the day before yesterday, Witness 7.204, BT32. I explained as I

15 took him through his evidence in chief that we would not be going through

16 every single photograph and every single map but they were going to be

17 tendered to the courtroom as an exhibit and I'm simply giving those maps

18 and photographs an exhibit number and as agreed yesterday it would be our

19 exhibit number/the Stakic exhibit number.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Exactly.

21 MS. SUTHERLAND: So I've just done the photographs and the two

22 maps. So P1519 will be P1519/S212. P1520 will be P1520/S213. And P1521

23 has already been tendered, I'm sorry, I'm reading down the exhibit list I

24 was just given but that's already been tendered that was in relation to

25 witness Poljak. And we will provide Mr. Ackerman with a list of the

1 exhibits as we have done with the Registrar so that he knows exactly what

2 exhibit is what and the Chamber.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: That would be most useful. So now, the next witness

4 enjoys a pseudonym plus facial distortion?

5 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes, Your Honour, I mentioned voice distortion

6 when I raised the matter last time but he only has pseudonym and image

7 distortion.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: And image distortion. Shall now -- he will,

9 however, come into the courtroom and I want to make sure that he does not

10 show up in -- yes, Mr. Ackerman?

11 MR. ACKERMAN: You mentioned three things yesterday that you

12 wanted me to respond to.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, 92, 94, and protective measures.

14 MR. ACKERMAN: Okay. That's what I thought. On protective

15 measures, Your Honour, what I would really like to do is just make it

16 clear in the record that with regard to any motion for protective

17 measures, I do not oppose any protective measure short of closed session

18 and in every case I oppose closed sessions and that way I won't have to

19 file a bunch of paper every time they do something.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. I think you were late in any case. But

21 Ms. Sutherland, please refer that to Ms. Korner and my staff knows

22 precisely how to go about the protective measures motion. 12th protective

23 measures motion.

24 Yes, please. So we can remain in open session, Madam Chuqing, as

25 I understand it and now as soon as the gentleman takes his seat --

1 [The witness entered court]

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Good afternoon to you, sir.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon. Good afternoon.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: [Previous translation continues] ... Language that

5 you can understand?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: So this is the second time you have come to this

8 Tribunal to give evidence so you ought to be familiar with the procedure.

9 The usher will be handing you the text of a solemn declaration to speak

10 the truth and the whole truth and nothing but the truth in the course of

11 your testimony so please make that solemn declaration now.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

13 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

14 WITNESS: WITNESS BT27

15 [Witness answered through interpreter].

16 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. You may sit down. I'll be very brief

17 in my introduction to you. You would have noticed that I did not refer to

18 you by your name, and that behind you there is a sort of a curtain plus

19 other panels that conceal you from the public. The reason is something

20 that you are certainly aware of. You have asked for certain protective

21 measures to be put in place and we have agreed on two basic protective

22 measures. One is that you will be given a pseudonym, a number, and that's

23 how you will be known in this trial, and referred to. And secondly, that

24 although this remains an open session, a public session, your image is

25 distorted so anyone who looks at the monitor will see what you probably

1 are seeing now on your screen, if you are on monitor video mode. Having

2 said that, you will be asked a series of questions by Ms. Sutherland, who

3 is appearing for the Prosecution. You will not -- first, you will not be

4 asked the amount of questions you were asked in Stakic. The reason is

5 very simple. We have a transcript of your testimony in Stakic and that is

6 going to be considered in this case too. So there is no need to repeat

7 certain questions, but there will be some questions which Ms. Sutherland

8 will put to you to add upon what you have already testified in Stakic and

9 to clarify other matters to us in this trial.

10 At the end of the set of questions put to you by the Prosecution

11 and we call that examination-in-chief, you will be cross-examined by

12 Mr. Ackerman for the accused, who is Mr. Radoslav Brdjanin in this

13 particular case.

14 Ms. Sutherland, he is all yours.

15 MS. SUTHERLAND: Thank you, Your Honour.

16 Examined by Ms. Sutherland:

17 Q. Sir, you testified --

18 JUDGE AGIUS: I think he needs to identify himself first.

19 MS. SUTHERLAND: Thank you, Ms. Gustin.

20 Q. Can you look at this piece of paper and it can be first showed to

21 the Defence and can you confirm without saying your name that that is in

22 fact your name written on that piece of paper?

23 A. Yes.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Usher could you please show it to

25 Mr. Ackerman and then to us?

1 MS. SUTHERLAND: Could that be under seal as Prosecution Exhibit

2 P1528?

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you.

4 MS. SUTHERLAND:

5 Q. Sir, you testified in the Stakic trial on the 10th and 11th of

6 June, 2002 and you have reviewed your testimony by listening to the

7 audiotapes. As His Honour has just explained to you, your Stakic

8 testimony is now going to be admitted into this trial pursuant to Rule 92

9 bis along with any exhibits that were tendered through you in that trial.

10 Except for two portions of your testimony which have been redacted from

11 the transcript, which we will deal with later on today.

12 I will briefly summarise some of the matters that you testified

13 about in the Stakic trial over the two days. I will also be asking you

14 some clarifying questions and some questions in addition to your Stakic

15 testimony.

16 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, can I tender the bundle as Exhibit

17 P1529?

18 JUDGE AGIUS: [Microphone not activated]

19 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, it is being so admitted.

21 MS. SUTHERLAND: May we move into private session so that I can

22 ask some background questions of the witness on a topic which specifically

23 requires private session.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Registrar, please, let's go into private

25 session for a while.

1 [Private session]

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13 Page 12007- – redacted – private session

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1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [Open session]

8 MS. SUTHERLAND:

9 Q. Sir, we are now in open session so bear that in mind when giving

10 your answers so as not to reveal the identity -- your identity.

11 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, I would like to play a tape now. It

12 was provided to the booth in Courtroom III yesterday and I hope we have

13 it -- yes, we have.

14 Q. Sir, I would like you to watch this videotape and tell the Court

15 if there is anyone on that videotape that you recognise and we can have

16 the videotape paused. The quality is very, very bad and I hope that when

17 the videotape is paused, you will still be able to recognise who you wish

18 to point out to the Court.

19 The videotape I want to play is Prosecution Exhibit P1129 and it's

20 V000-0084 for the AV's benefit. And it needs to be started at point

21 11.36.26.

22 [Videotape played]

23 MS. SUTHERLAND: Could you stop? Could the video be

24 fast-forwarded to 11.36.26, please?

25 [Videotape played]

1 JUDGE AGIUS: You need to tell us when you want us to pause.

2 [Videotape played]

3 MS. SUTHERLAND: Could the sound be cut, please?

4 [Videotape played]

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I start?

6 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes. Could the video be rewound, please, to the

7 start of the meeting?

8 [Videotape played]

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We can see here Mr. Stakic,

10 Mr. Simo Drljaca, Mr. Kovacevic -- Dr. Kovacevic.

11 MS. SUTHERLAND: The video is paused at 11.36.24.

12 Q. Who is the doctor first of all with -- Dr. Stakic, whereabouts is

13 he sitting in that frame?

14 A. Straight, in the -- in the middle of the screen.

15 Q. So he's sitting at the end of the table to the left? As you

16 look --

17 A. That's right.

18 Q. Drljaca, where is he sitting?

19 A. On his left, or rather, yes, yes, on his left, as I am looking at

20 the screen.

21 Q. So, on Stakic's right but to the -- as you look at the photograph,

22 to the left of Dr. Stakic, what colour shirt does he have on?

23 A. That's right. Drljaca has a white T-shirt or shirt, I'm not sure.

24 Q. And Dr. Kovacevic?

25 A. Dr. Kovacevic is in the very corner and he's not shown in his

1 entirety. He's next to Simo Drljaca. Maybe there is somebody else there

2 but here on the screen, he's in the left corner of the screen.

3 Q. Is he clean shaven or does he have a mustache?

4 A. He has a mustache.

5 Q. Thank you.

6 MS. SUTHERLAND: Could the video be played again?

7 [Videotape played]

8 MS. SUTHERLAND: Could you stop?

9 Q. Do you recognise anyone in that frame and we have freezed it at

10 11.36.34.

11 A. I think, although I'm not a hundred per cent sure because I've

12 only seen Zeljaja three times in my life but I think that this could be

13 Radmilo Zeljaja, but I'm not positive entirely.

14 Q. Whereabouts is he sitting?

15 A. But I think it could be him. Here at the very beginning, on the

16 right-hand side of the screen.

17 Q. In the military uniform?

18 A. In a military uniform, yes.

19 Q. Thank you.

20 MS. SUTHERLAND: Could the video please be played?

21 [Videotape played]

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Simo Drljaca, Kovacevic.

23 [Videotape played]

24 MS. SUTHERLAND: Stop the video, please.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know the others.

1 MS. SUTHERLAND:

2 Q. And --

3 MS. SUTHERLAND: Stop the video completely, thank you. Could the

4 witness please be shown Prosecution Exhibit P1127? That is the map of the

5 Prijedor area.

6 Usher, could you bring me the exhibit and I will fold it in such a

7 way that it can be placed on the ELMO.

8 Q. Sir, I would like you to point out for the Court, please, the

9 following places, using the pointer. First of all, to the Prijedor town

10 itself. If you could point out using the ELMO machine on your left, if

11 you could place the pointer on the machine on your left, sir?

12 A. Here.

13 Q. Could you point now to Kozarac?

14 A. This is Kozarac.

15 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... The village of Kozarusa?

16 A. This is Kozarusa.

17 Q. The village of Kamicani?

18 A. This is where the village of Kamicani is.

19 Q. Benkovac or Mrakovica?

20 A. This is Mrakovica here and right here we have Benkovac.

21 Q. And two places that we will be discussing in just one moment, the

22 hamlet or village of Dera?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Could you point --

25 A. There is a place called Dera.

1 Q. Could you point on the map to approximately where that is?

2 A. That place is here, just in front of the village Rajkovici between

3 Kozarac, as you travel from Kozarac to Mrakovica, approximately here.

4 Q. And I think in your prior testimony you said it was approximately

5 two kilometres from Kozarac town?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Could you also please point to where the Orlovci checkpoint was?

8 Orlovci checkpoint?

9 A. Orlovci. This is Kozarusa, Mujkanovici. Right here, right here

10 between the place called Kalate. This is where there was a checkpoint on

11 the asphalt road which goes from Prijedor to Banja Luka, somewhere here.

12 Q. You're pointing at the moment to the road marked in red between

13 Prijedor and Kozarac?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Thank you. I've finished with the map. You testified in the

16 Stakic trial that after the takeover on the 30th of April, 1992, a mixed

17 checkpoint was set up in Kozarac at the junctions of the

18 Prijedor-Banja Luka road and the Kozarac-Trnopolje road and there was done

19 for security reasons.

20 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honours, this is at page 4264.

21 Q. And you also testified that there was a Serb checkpoint at Orlovci

22 which you've just pointed to on the map.

23 You testified that on the 24th of May, 1992, about conversations

24 Zeljaja had with Osman Didovic in relation to a military convoy passing

25 Kozarac. This is at page 4273. And you discussed a subsequent telephone

1 call a short time later, perhaps some 20 minutes later, from Zeljaja to

2 say that the convoy had been attacked at Jakupovici, and you said that

3 Didovic was then going to see what happened when the shelling of Kozarac

4 began. You testified that as you recall, Zeljaja, that as you recall,

5 Zeljaja had said that the convoy was moving from Prijedor to Banja Luka.

6 You also testified that given the short time between the two telephone

7 conversations, i.e. the first conversation with Zeljaja about the convoy

8 passing and the subsequent telephone conversation some 20 minutes later to

9 say that it had been attacked at Jakupovici, you testified that the convoy

10 would not have had enough time to start its journey from Prijedor and

11 reach Jakupovici where it was allegedly attacked, and you said this at

12 page 4384 of the transcript. Therefore, it was your belief that the

13 convoy was in fact travelling from Banja Luka towards Prijedor.

14 My question today is regardless of the direction in which the

15 convoy was travelling, given that you testified that the shelling started

16 shortly after Zeljaja called Didovic to inform him about the alleged

17 attack, would this mean that tanks would have already had to have been in

18 place for that to happen, for the shelling to have occurred immediately?

19 A. Yes. On that 24th of May, the plan which was described to us by

20 Zeljaja was begun because Zeljaja told us that he had already had

21 coordinates. It was impossible to put or position heavy artillery on the

22 elevations around Kozarac within 20 minutes. From the first conversation

23 with Major Zeljaja with the commander of the police, only 20 minutes

24 passed before the first shell landed on Kozarac. And after that, from

25 many directions, they started shelling Kozarac. Very intensely. So that

1 the convoy that had been announced by Major Zeljaja was probably just an

2 excuse for starting shelling Kozarac.

3 Q. In your Stakic testimony, you described in detail the attack on

4 Kozarac on the 24th of May, 1992. This is at page 4273 and following.

5 That the attack began around 1300 hours and the intense shelling continued

6 until the following day. You testified that the police commander Didovic

7 had moved the police base to a house in Dera and you've just pointed that

8 out for Their Honours on the map, where an improvised hospital was set up

9 and that you were at that house during the shelling of Kozarac. Is that

10 correct?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. In your testimony you mentioned Azra Blazevic and Dr. Jusuf Pasic

13 being there. Do you know a Dr. Idriz Merdzanic?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Was he also there at the house?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. You testified that on the 25th of May, 1992, Didovic established a

18 radio connection with Zeljaja and that Zeljaja stated that the inhabitants

19 of Kozarac and the surrounding areas had to form a column with the

20 policemen leading the column with white flags and to gather at the Limenka

21 bus stop. You described how you and many of the inhabitants gathered

22 there at the bus stop on the 26th of May, 1992. You stated you saw a

23 number of soldiers in different uniforms, olive grey, blue camouflage and

24 black uniforms with insignia on caps. You mentioned that you saw a number

25 of houses or houses burning in the neighbouring villages of Brdjani and

1 Kozarusa. You stated that 20 or so Autotransport buses were at Limenka

2 when the column arrived and you were ordered on to one of the buses with

3 the other policemen and were you taken to the police station in Prijedor,

4 the SUP.

5 You testified that from the SUP, you were taken with a number of

6 other men to the Keraterm camp and when you arrived there, there were

7 approximately 50 men there, including the elected president of the

8 Prijedor municipality, Muhamed Cehajic, who you noticed had been beaten.

9 MS. SUTHERLAND: Could the witness please be shown Prosecution

10 Exhibits P1128.14 and P1128.15? The photographs?

11 Q. Sir, looking at P1128.14, what is shown in that photograph?

12 A. This photograph depicts the Keraterm camp near Prijedor.

13 Q. Can you point to where you were detained?

14 A. On that day, we were brought into this garage here, this first one

15 here.

16 Q. And you're pointing to the end room to the left of the photograph?

17 A. Yes.

18 MS. SUTHERLAND: I'm sorry, I didn't hear, Your Honour.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: At ground floor level.

20 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes, thank you.

21 Q. And P1128.15. Again, is that another photo of Keraterm from a

22 different angle?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Thank you. In your testimony, you described -- I'm finished with

25 the photographs. In your testimony you described how you spent the night

1 of the 26th of May and the 27th of May detained in the camp. Were you

2 ever told why you were being detained at Keraterm?

3 A. No.

4 Q. You testified that in the afternoon of the 27th of May, you were

5 ordered by guards on to the Autotransport Prijedor buses, and this is at

6 page 4286, and that those buses left the camp at around 4.00 or 5.00 p.m.

7 And arrived at the Omarska camp in the early hours of the following

8 morning, the distance being approximately 28 to 30 kilometres away. You

9 described how when you arrived at the Omarska camp you heard sounds of

10 shooting and of glass breaking. You mentioned the name of three people,

11 the names of three people who were taken off the bus whether you first

12 arrived at Omarska who you've never seen again and that's at pages 4303 to

13 4304.

14 You were detained at the Omarska camp from the early hours of the

15 28th of May until the 6th of August, 1992; is that correct?

16 A. Yes.

17 MS. SUTHERLAND: Could the witness please be shown...

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Ackerman.

19 MR. ACKERMAN: I know we have the whole day but what seems to be

20 going on is you're just being told what the transcript says that you've

21 been provided with. Rarely is the witness asked a question and I thought

22 the whole purpose of providing you the transcripts was so that we wouldn't

23 have to do this.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Indeed you are right. On the other hand, what I

25 notice Ms. Sutherland is doing is she's preparing the way for a question

1 every so often. And to do that, apparently she needs to remind the

2 witness of when he stated. If you can condense it and go straight to the

3 question, that will be much better because it would reduce the testimony

4 substantially but it's up to you. I mean I wouldn't like to interfere

5 much. But perhaps I think in a way, Mr. Ackerman may be right.

6 MS. SUTHERLAND: Thank you, Your Honour. Could the witness be

7 shown photograph P1128.18?

8 Q. Sir, what is shown in that photograph?

9 A. This photograph depicts the Omarska camp.

10 Q. Could you point on the machine on your left to where you were

11 detained?

12 A. It can't be seen very well from here, because I was in a room

13 number 15, which is located on this side, upstairs. In front of this

14 building, there was the entrance door which I passed through on the 28th.

15 MS. SUTHERLAND: Could the witness be shown P1128.4?

16 Q. Would you point on that photograph to where you were detained?

17 A. This photograph depicts the -- among other things, the door

18 through which I went through, and then on the right-hand side, upstairs

19 here, there is the room number 15, which consisted of two rooms.

20 Q. The room you're pointing to what was that commonly referred to,

21 that building, that long building?

22 A. Hangar.

23 Q. Your room -- you pointed to the entrance or exit door and your

24 room was to the right of the door?

25 A. Yes, upstairs on the right-hand side, the first door on your

1 right.

2 Q. Could you please point to the administration building?

3 A. The administration building was here next to the restaurant where

4 we went for our meals, right here.

5 Q. And the other two buildings shown on the model?

6 A. This one here, a small house that you can see here, is something

7 that we called the "white house." The last time I said, and I can confirm

8 it now, that the real name for that house would be the black house.

9 Q. And you gave the reasons why in your transcript so we won't go

10 into that. The other building on the photograph, the building on the

11 right-hand corner, what building -- what name was that referred to by?

12 A. We called this building the red house.

13 Q. Thank you. I've finished with the photograph. You were detained

14 in room 15 for the whole of your detention except for one day that you

15 spent on the pista. Were you ever told why you were being detained in

16 Omarska?

17 A. No. Nobody ever addressed us and explained to us the reasons for

18 our detention there.

19 Q. You testified that detainee -- that the maltreatment of detainees

20 was constant and you described in detail about a beating that you

21 suffered, which we will not go into but Their Honours can read at pages

22 4295 and following, and the injuries that you suffer today from that

23 beating, and they are on page 4301.

24 I want to clarify something that you were asked in

25 cross-examination in the Stakic trial. You were questioned and asked

1 about whether you were aware, since the establishment -- since the since

2 you were there since the establishment of the Omarska camp, whether you

3 were familiar with the fact that during the first ten days of June, quite

4 a few people, approximately 70 per day, were released from the camp,

5 having previously been interrogated. You stated that you were aware of

6 this. Did you ever see any of these people who were released in the camp

7 again?

8 A. Yes. It is true that during the first ten days, maybe less, some

9 people who had been interviewed were released. However, I saw again

10 Fadil Basic in room 15, although he had been interrogated previously and

11 released, and then returned again. I also saw Ante Slutaj who was the

12 secretary of the school in Kozarac, and also there were other people who

13 again were returned into Omarska camp.

14 Q. During your detention in the Omarska camp, did you see anyone from

15 the Serb authorities in the camp?

16 A. While I was at the Omarska camp, since I was staying in room

17 number 15, I did not have the opportunity of seeing anyone except a couple

18 of times, Simo Drljaca, but I heard, or we heard, when a delegation

19 came --

20 MR. ACKERMAN: Excuse me.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Ackerman.

22 MR. ACKERMAN: I think "I heard or we heard".

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Let him say it and I'll decide afterwards whether to

24 admit it or whether it have it redacted.

25 MR. ACKERMAN: All right.

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, go ahead. You heard?

2 MS. SUTHERLAND:

3 Q. Sir, first of all can you tell me -- can you tell the

4 Trial Chamber what you heard and who did you hear it from and in what

5 circumstances?

6 JUDGE AGIUS: And when.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This arrival of the delegation to

8 the Omarska camp, I heard about it from Ante Slutaj, the school secretary

9 from Kozarac. The man who that morning, when the delegation arrived, was

10 taken out with another 15 inmates, whom the guard took past the white

11 house to the latrine, and then after they finished, he left them on the

12 pista. They left in the morning hours because the preparations in

13 expectation of the visit began in the morning already, so that he was

14 present when the delegation arrived. We, in room 15, were able to hear

15 the chanting, the fanatical chanting, "This is Serbia," the singing of

16 songs.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: [Microphone not activated]

18 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Who the components of this delegation were. Who

20 composed this delegation? That's what we want to know. We don't want the

21 whole story.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The delegation that Ante Slutaj told

23 me about comprised Brdjanin from Banja Luka, Kupresanin, Simo Miskovic,

24 Simo Drljaca, Major Zeljaja, Arsic, and he also told me that there was a

25 person called Vukic there as well. I don't know him. He told me that he

1 was a school teacher from Banja Luka, and he knew him because he was also

2 a teacher.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: When did he tell you this?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He told me about it when he came

5 back. I don't know exactly what time that was, but maybe it was about

6 noon, when he returned to room 15, after the arrival of the delegation,

7 together with these other people who had left the room to go to the

8 latrine that morning.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, go ahead.

10 MS. SUTHERLAND: Thank you, Your Honour.

11 Q. Sir, you -- what did Ante tell you when he returned to the room?

12 You began earlier by saying that it they were -- you heard that they were

13 singing songs. What other information did Ante tell you besides who was

14 in the delegation, if anything?

15 JUDGE AGIUS: If it's something that already results from the

16 transcript, you can go direct straight to. Otherwise, we leave it at

17 that. First of all, did he tell you anything else?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Ante Slutaj said that they had to

19 raise three fingers and chant, "This is Serbia," that they had to sing

20 songs.

21 MS. SUTHERLAND:

22 Q. Moving on to another topic, you described the horrific conditions

23 in the camp and that was at page 4306, and you testified about seeing

24 bodies in Tam trucks and that around the 24th and 25th of July, two

25 persons who were detained in the same room as you told you that they had

1 loaded around 100 dead bodies from the red house and that the bodies had

2 been mutilated, and this is at page 4308.

3 I want to move now to the 6th of August, 1992. You testified that

4 on that date, a large number of buses arrived and your name was called

5 out, along with many other of the other detainees and then you were placed

6 on these buses and taken to the Manjaca camp. Again, the buses took all

7 night until the early hours of the morning to reach the Manjaca camp and

8 you testified that upon your arrival two men were called from the buses

9 who you have never seen again.

10 MS. SUTHERLAND: Could the witness please be shown

11 photographs -- the following photographs which haven't been given an

12 exhibit number yet? And, Your Honour, these were not on my proposed list

13 of exhibits although I did list that I would use the main bundle, P1128,

14 of which they come from.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: What's the ERN number?

16 MS. SUTHERLAND: I'm trying to find it, Your Honour. 00396712

17 will become -- if we can mark that as P1128.31? And then 00464997, which

18 will be marked Prosecution Exhibit P1128.32? And the last one, ERN

19 00456983 which will become Prosecution Exhibit P1128.33.

20 Q. Looking first at P1128.31, what is shown in that photograph?

21 A. This photograph shows the entrance to the Manjaca camp. This is

22 the gate through which we entered the Manjaca camp.

23 Q. The stable where you were detained, is that shown on that

24 photograph?

25 A. You don't see this building, the stable, on this photograph, but

1 it's third in line. It's next to the kitchen, where we had lunch. It's

2 the third building in order, that you can see on this photograph.

3 Q. Looking now at Prosecution Exhibit P1128.32, do you -- can it be

4 placed that way? Thank you. Up -- what is shown in that photograph?

5 A. You can see the inside of those stables where we stayed.

6 Q. Do you recognise anyone in that photograph? And if so, can you

7 just, using the pointer, place the pointer on the machine?

8 A. This is Muharem Besic, called Cicak. This is Samir Kusuran from

9 Kozarac.

10 Q. Muhamed Besic, where is he from?

11 A. From Kozarac.

12 Q. And he's the man in the orangey-coloured jumper in the foreground

13 of the photograph? And the man you referred to as Kusuran --

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. -- is to his left as we look at the photograph in the

16 dark-coloured jumper?

17 A. This man, yes.

18 Q. Looking at Prosecution Exhibit P1128.33, what is shown in that

19 photograph?

20 A. This photograph also shows the interior of the stables where we

21 were placed while in Manjaca.

22 Q. And you can see the rails on either side of the photograph behind

23 the detainees seated on the floor. What's behind those rails on either

24 side?

25 A. Inmates were also behind those rails. The metal rails were used

1 to tie up cattle, cows and cattle to the rails.

2 Q. Before the detainees were placed there?

3 A. Yes, yes.

4 Q. You would -- thank you, I've finished with the photograph. Sir,

5 you were detained in Manjaca camp from the 6th of August until the 18th of

6 December, 1992; is that correct?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Were you ever told -- were you ever told why you were being

9 detained in Manjaca camp?

10 A. We were told once when Mr. Brdjanin came, and addressed us,

11 that -- and that was the only time that anybody addressed us inmates from

12 the camp and told us why we were there.

13 Q. Do you recall approximately when this visit to the camp was?

14 A. I don't know the exact date, because our watches were taken away

15 from us already at Omarska and nobody returned them so I didn't know what

16 time it was or what day it was, but this happened before the camp was

17 disbanded, the camp at Manjaca.

18 Q. Can you tell the Court what Mr. Brdjanin told you at the Manjaca

19 camp?

20 A. On that occasion, Mr. Brdjanin was accompanied by the camp

21 commander, the deputy camp commander, Spaga. He spoke to us.

22 Q. What did he say?

23 A. Spaga told him that we were men who raped Serbian women, and who

24 killed Serbian children. After that, he addressed us and said that

25 captured Serbs do not have such conditions as the ones that we had. He

1 said that he was doing everything to send us to third countries, and after

2 that, which was usual, he blamed the then authorities, the SDA, for

3 everything that was happening to us. The SDA authorities headed by

4 Alija Izetbegovic.

5 Q. When you say, "He" are you referring to Spaga or Mr. Brdjanin?

6 A. Mr. Brdjanin.

7 Q. How did you know that it was Mr. Brdjanin that addressed you? How

8 did he introduce himself?

9 A. Mr. Brdjanin didn't have any need to introduce himself, because

10 already since the first pre-election party rallies and right until the

11 beginning of the war, he frequently appeared on television, on radio. He

12 was a public figure, a politician, and it wasn't difficult to recognise

13 him.

14 Q. When he appeared on the television or on the radio, what did you

15 hear him say? What was the general gist of the contents of what you heard

16 him say?

17 A. Most times when Mr. Brdjanin spoke, he mentioned generally Turks,

18 balijas, the story that Banja Luka was Serb, and during such speeches, all

19 three national parties said the same things.

20 Q. So you said that you heard Mr. Brdjanin -- saw Mr. Brdjanin on

21 television and heard him on the radio since the first pre-election party

22 rallies and right up until the beginning of the war. Just so that it's

23 crystal clear can you put a time period on this? When were the first

24 multi-party elections?

25 A. 1991, 1990. He started to appear at the election rallies.

1 Q. And when you say?

2 A. Starting from 1990.

3 Q. When you say up until the war, are you referring to what month in

4 1992?

5 A. I think right up until the time that I had the opportunity, before

6 I went to the camp, to Omarska, until then I was able to see and hear

7 Mr. Brdjanin.

8 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, if that's an appropriate time to

9 break?

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you have much longer?

11 MS. SUTHERLAND: No, Your Honour, I don't. I wish to play a video

12 which may take a little time, maybe 15 minutes, and a few other questions.

13 So maybe half an hour at the max.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. We'll break now. Can I suggest that we

15 break for 15 minutes only? Is that okay? 15 minutes' break. Thank you.

16 --- Recess taken at 3.44 p.m.

17 --- On resuming at 4.02 p.m.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Ackerman, it has been reported to me that as

19 soon as we left the courtroom, your client addressed the witness directly,

20 calling him a liar and using other disparaging terms. I don't know if you

21 were still in the courtroom when this happened or not and whether you are

22 aware of it.

23 MR. ACKERMAN: I know only this, Your Honour, that my client

24 reacted in a way that any of us might react when someone tells a complete

25 untruth about us but I don't think he spoke directly to the witness. I

1 think he was telling us that the witness had lied and that he couldn't

2 understand why the witness would lie the way he did under oath in a court

3 of law, but I think the communication was coming directly from

4 Mr. Brdjanin to his lawyers and I don't think he ever spoke directly to

5 the witness. I think that's not true.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Has the incident been filmed? By any chance?

7 THE ACCUSED: [No interpretation].

8 JUDGE AGIUS: I'm not addressing you. Can the technicians please

9 confirm to me whether the incident was filmed or not?

10 THE REGISTRAR: No, Your Honour, we stop recording as soon as you

11 leave the courtroom.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: I would like to have a written report on this,

13 Madam Registrar, by next Monday. In the meantime, I'm going to ask the

14 witness did Mr. Brdjanin address you directly after we left the courtroom?

15 Did he speak to you or did he just pass comments which you heard?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. Brdjanin, upon your leaving the

17 courtroom, pointed his fingers at me and said that I lied, that I'm a

18 liar, that he was never at Manjaca. I wouldn't ask for protection without

19 a good reason, and this is why this really hurt me personally because

20 there were 600 people in the stable which he entered in Manjaca.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: [Previous translation continues] ... Is very simple,

22 whether he addressed you directly or whether he just passed comments as

23 Mr. Ackerman said to Mr. Ackerman himself.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He didn't come right here but he

25 pointed towards me and said I was a liar.

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Were you still present in the courtroom,

2 Ms. Sutherland?

3 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes, I was, Your Honour.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. And Ms. Gustin?

5 MS. SUTHERLAND: Ms. Gustin was in the courtroom but was unaware

6 of what occurred.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Madam Chuqing, please, I want a full

8 report as to who was here at the time and who would be in a position to

9 give evidence. Yes, Mr. Trbojevic?

10 MR. TRBOJEVIC: [Interpretation] With your permission, Your

11 Honours, since I speak the language of our client, he did indeed point his

12 hand in the direction of the witness, but I was sure that he in fact spoke

13 to us, to the Defence counsel, when he said, "This man is a liar." I

14 think that was the essence of what transpired here.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: It's the first time we left before the witness did

16 and he took advantage of it. We'll deal with it when the time comes,

17 Mr. Trbojevic. Yes, in the meantime you may proceed with the witness.

18 MS. SUTHERLAND: Thank you, Your Honour.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: If he thinks that he's past -- that this is past and

20 forgotten, he is very badly mistaken, he doesn't know me. He's very badly

21 mistaken. Yes, Ms. Sutherland.

22 MS. SUTHERLAND:

23 Q. Sir I want to go back to Manjaca. You said just a moment ago that

24 Brdjanin came into the stable where there was some 600 other odd

25 detainees. Was anyone else with Mr. Brdjanin when he came into the

1 stable?

2 A. In addition to Mr. Brdjanin, there was camp commander and his

3 deputy, whom we used to call Spaga.

4 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... You did mention Mr. Spaga

5 before. Was there anyone else besides camp personnel with Mr. Brdjanin?

6 A. No.

7 Q. I want to move now before I move to another topic, I want to ask

8 you, go back to two matters that we discussed before the break. The first

9 one was in relation to the question I asked you in clarifying something

10 that you had said in cross-examination in the Stakic case, about the

11 number of prisoners who had been released in the first days of the camp

12 being open. You said that you were in room 15, which was on the upper

13 floor of the hangar building and therefore you were not able to be in a

14 position to see things in the camp. My question is this:

15 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I think this has been asked and dealt

16 with repeatedly and what the Prosecutor is trying to do is get the witness

17 to change his testimony about 70 people a day being released from the

18 camp.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: How can you say that? We haven't heard the

20 question.

21 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, she is going back to the same issue that she

22 talked to him about before. She wasn't satisfied with his answer. She's

23 trying again.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: I would still wait for the question first.

25 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, I failed to ask a question when I

1 asked the witness last time and that was: How do you know that there

2 were in fact 70 people were day as was put to you in cross-examination.

3 How are you aware that it was 70 people per day?

4 MR. ACKERMAN: The witness testified under oath in Stakic,

5 Your Honour, that 70 people a day were released from camp during the month

6 of June.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: He's being asked to state now how he's aware of

8 that.

9 MR. ACKERMAN: I think the Prosecution is trying to impeach their

10 witness and that's not proper. They're not permitted to impeach their own

11 witness.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't think that's the case. He's being asked how

13 he came to know this.

14 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, the Prosecution could have asked a

15 question in re-examination in the Stakic case but didn't and is asking the

16 witness now how he came to know that 70 people were released per day. He

17 has already testified that some people were released. I'm just asking him

18 whether he knows about the number.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: You've heard the question. Please answer it.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The last time during the

21 cross-examination, Mr. Lukic asked me a question as follows: Do I know

22 that during the first days of the Omarska camp, on a daily basis, after

23 interrogation, 70 people were released? Therefore, I was unable -- I did

24 not have an opportunity to count the people leaving the camp. All I know

25 is that in the first days, the people who had been interrogated were

1 released and then afterwards some of them were brought back.

2 MS. SUTHERLAND:

3 Q. I also asked you a question in relation to the -- around the 24th

4 and 25th of July, that two people who were detained in your room told you

5 that around 100 bodies had been taken from the red house. Do you know the

6 origin of these hundred people? If you do, say so. If you don't, then

7 please say that.

8 A. About 100 of these people, they were from Omarska, and prior to

9 that, they were from Prijedor area, from Kozarac.

10 Q. I now want to move to another topic.

11 MS. SUTHERLAND: Could the witness please be shown some

12 photographs which will become part of P1128? The first one has the ERN

13 number 0039-4827. That will become P1128.34.

14 Q. Sir, what is shown on that photograph?

15 A. This photograph depicts Kozarac.

16 Q. Could you point, using the pointer, on to the machine on your

17 left, could you point to the mosques in the town of Kozarac and name them,

18 please?

19 A. This mosque here is called Mutnik mosque. This one here.

20 Q. Can you just pause. The mosque you're pointing to is to the

21 right-hand side of the photograph near a white two or three storey

22 building; is that correct?

23 A. That's right.

24 Q. The next mosque?

25 A. The mosque in Kalata.

1 Q. And you're pointing to the mosque on the right-hand side of the

2 photograph with a red roof and the minaret?

3 A. That's right.

4 Q. And the third one?

5 A. The mosque in Kozarusa.

6 Q. And now you're pointing to the middle of the photograph, just

7 before the hills, and there is the white minaret; is that correct?

8 A. That's right.

9 MS. SUTHERLAND: Could the witness be shown Prosecution Exhibit

10 P1128.25?

11 Q. Sir, just quickly because we need to move a little bit faster,

12 could you show -- tell me what -- tell the Court what's depicted in that

13 photograph. On the left-hand side is a photograph of what?

14 A. On the left-hand side, we can see the Mutnik mosque in Kozarac

15 which was photographed in 1984 during the Olympic Games and then this is

16 the cinema building in Kozarac and the elementary school in Kozarac.

17 Q. And you pointed at the cinema building being the photograph on the

18 top right-hand corner?

19 A. That's right.

20 Q. And the elementary school in Kozarac being the bottom left-hand

21 photograph?

22 A. That's right.

23 Q. Thank you.

24 MS. SUTHERLAND: Could the witness now be shown this photograph,

25 ERN number 00393194, which will become P1128.35?

1 Q. Sir, what is shown in that photograph?

2 A. This is the Mutnik mosque which was destroyed in 1992.

3 Q. That is the same building that is in the photograph -- the exhibit

4 you just saw, P1128.25, the photograph on the left-hand side of that

5 exhibit?

6 A. Yes.

7 MS. SUTHERLAND: I'm sorry, Your Honour, the Mutnik mosque, the

8 destroyed Mutnik mosque is already in evidence as P1128.26. No. I'm now

9 told it's not.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: No it's not. In fact 11 -- that's the -- another

11 building on which another witness testified.

12 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, it's a wrong ERN number and the ERN

13 number -- can I have the exhibit, please? Thank you. I'm sorry, the

14 exhibit -- the ERN number which I -- I said was 00393191, not 3194. And

15 so that is now Prosecution Exhibit PP1128.35, which is what was discussed

16 a moment ago. Could the witness please be shown this photograph, ERN

17 number 00393202? Which will become Prosecution Exhibit P1128.36?

18 Q. Sir, very quickly, what is in that photograph?

19 A. This photograph depicts the mosque in Kalata that had been

20 destroyed.

21 Q. Could you now be given this photograph ERN number 003933081 which

22 will be P1128.37?

23 A. This photograph shows the Serbian church in Kozarac.

24 Q. Thank you. I have finished with the photographs. Sir, in the

25 Stakic trial, you testified -- you named eight policemen that you knew

1 from the Prijedor municipality who were killed in the Omarska camp and you

2 also named seven or so policemen who had been missing since the conflict

3 and that was at page 4314.

4 MS. SUTHERLAND: Could the witness please be shown Prosecution

5 Exhibit P1234? I apologise. This was not on the list of exhibits but was

6 a document that was read out in the Stakic trial as Exhibit P-- S130.

7 It's in his transcript at page 432 -- 4330.

8 Q. Sir, looking at the -- do you have the document in your own

9 language?

10 A. In English.

11 Q. It must be a double-sided document. Sir, can you --

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Ackerman?

13 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, because it wasn't on the list, I have

14 no way of knowing what --

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Neither do we.

16 MR. ACKERMAN: -- what we are talking about. I'm also becoming

17 concerned. The original estimate was 30 minute direct, then it was an

18 hour and an a half.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: It was three-quarters of an hour to an hour and a

20 half.

21 MR. ACKERMAN: I don't know if I'm able to complete a

22 cross-examination today and that really interferes with what's happening

23 on Monday. And I don't want to feel like I am pressured into trying to

24 finish by today, if she is going to take most of the time. And much of it

25 is identifying photographs that have already been identified you've

1 already heard what they are.

2 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, I'm moving as quickly as I can. A

3 lot of these photographs, the Kozarac photos have not been identified by

4 other witnesses. They were introduced for the first time today.

5 Q. Sir, can you please look at the paragraph when it talks about the

6 number of policemen in the Prijedor, could you please read that paragraph?

7 107 policemen?

8 JUDGE AGIUS: We still need, I think, a text in English put on the

9 ELMO so that we can follow.

10 MS. SUTHERLAND: Usher?

11 JUDGE AGIUS: That's too small. We need that --

12 MS. SUTHERLAND:

13 Q. Sir, can you please read the sentence talking about the number of

14 policemen from the Prijedor municipality?

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Which paragraph?

16 MS. SUTHERLAND: The second paragraph.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "Prior to the breakout of war, there

18 were 107 active policemen, out of which there were 26 from the Kozarac

19 area. A number of these policemen were killed in combat operations and

20 the others are in the collection centre."

21 MS. SUTHERLAND:

22 Q. Could you also read out the final paragraph?

23 A. "The war structure anticipates 1342 members in general police

24 stations and 52 members in the road safety station. Out of that number,

25 1214 should be reserve and 180 active police officers. The previous war

1 structure anticipated 630 policemen. The new war structure, which is

2 functioning now, was prepared during secret preparations for the takeover.

3 It is believed that this war structure can ensure the successful

4 performance of police duties and tasks."

5 Q. Thank you. I have finished with that document. You also named

6 other persons that you knew who were either killed or that disappeared in

7 1992, and that was at page 4316 of the transcript and following.

8 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, I wish to go into private session

9 now to deal with the final two -- final three aspects of this witness's

10 testimony.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Let's -- Madam Chuqing, let's go into private

12 session, please.

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18 MR. ACKERMAN: I'll do my best, Your Honour, to make sure that we

19 don't make a mistake in that regard. And I think we need to be in private

20 session right as I begin.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's go into private session.

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25 MR. ACKERMAN:

1 Q. I want to go to the actual language of the question, sir, that you

2 were asked by Mr. Lukic about people being released from Omarska. It's

3 come up a couple of times today. When people were brought into Omarska

4 they were fairly routinely questioned and interrogated, weren't they?

5 A. I've already said that during the first five or six days, there

6 were cases where people were released after interrogation.

7 Q. Well, let me -- let me remind you of the actual question you were

8 asked and the answer you gave in the Stakic case. When you testified in

9 that case, you took an oath just like you did here today, didn't you?

10 A. That's right.

11 Q. You gave truthful testimony in Stakic, didn't you?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. You weren't trying to mislead the judges in Stakic or tell them

14 anything that wasn't true, were you?

15 A. Just like today, because there is no need for me to do that.

16 Q. The question you were asked was this: Page 4390. "Are you

17 familiar with the fact that during the first ten days of the month of

18 June, quite a few people, approximately 70 per day, were released from the

19 camp having previously been interrogated?" Answer: "Yes, I am." Now

20 that was the question and that was the answer you gave, wasn't it?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And if it's approximate 70 people per day over a ten day period,

23 we are talking 700 people, aren't we?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. After the time that you were in Omarska, I think on 6 August, you

1 said you were sent by bus to Manjaca then.

2 A. That's correct.

3 Q. And --

4 A. I was.

5 Q. About -- would you agree with me it's about 60 kilometres from

6 Omarska to Manjaca?

7 A. Approximately, but I don't know the exact figure.

8 Q. Can you tell us how it was that it took all night for the buses to

9 get from Omarska to Manjaca?

10 A. I really don't know about that. You should put that question to

11 people who escorted us there and drove us there, because on a bus where I

12 was, there were some 80 to 100 people, and I have no idea how we got

13 there. I just know that we got there. It's difficult to estimate how

14 much time it took us to get there but it definitely was in the morning

15 hours of the following day.

16 Q. Well, do you have a sense that the buses were going like 6 or 7

17 kilometres an hour or were they going faster than that or...

18 A. I simply didn't think at the time, either about the bus or about

19 its speed. I simply thought about where we were being taken. I was lying

20 on the floor with four or five people on top of me. So I really can't

21 tell you what speed they drove at. I don't know.

22 Q. You were -- you were in Manjaca between the 6th of August and the

23 24th of September, correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And so this person who you claim to have been Brdjanin that came

1 to visit there would had to have come during that period of time, between

2 6 August and 24 September, correct?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And can you be any more precise about when it was that this person

5 who you claim to have been Brdjanin actually came there?

6 A. I've already said that I don't know the exact date of their

7 arrival. Because I didn't conduct any preparations for any trial. It's

8 just that I am now saying about what I still remember after ten years to

9 be truth. I can't tell you the exact date.

10 Q. But it may have been an error in the translation because I didn't

11 ask you for the exact date. What I asked you was whether you could come

12 closer than sometime between 6 August and 24 September. Was it closer to

13 6th August or closer to 24 September? Was it closer to the time when you

14 first got there or the time you left?

15 A. It was closer to the time when we left, because Mr. Brdjanin told

16 us that they were trying to do their utmost to send us to third countries.

17 Q. Were you actually in Manjaca until the 18th of December?

18 A. I really don't know. I have two dates. On the 18th was the event

19 with the first group, because we left Manjaca in three groups. So it's

20 either the 18th or the 24th. The best way would be to receive information

21 from the ICRC as to when I left. It was either the 18th or the 24th. But

22 the camp was disbanded somewhere around that time.

23 Q. Well, I'm confused between two bits of testimony today. I asked

24 you if were you there between 6 and 24 September and you said you were but

25 on page 31, line 11 of your earlier testimony today, you said you were

1 there until the 18th of December. Did you leave in September or December?

2 A. It's probably a mistake, but I left in December. There is no

3 doubt about that. I have documents issued by the ICRC.

4 Q. I think it's probably more my mistake than yours, sir.

5 A. Thank you.

6 Q. So the time when you claim Mr. Brdjanin there would have been

7 closer to the 24th of December than August when you first went there. I

8 think that's where we had gotten to, hadn't we?

9 A. That's right.

10 MR. ACKERMAN: Do you want to break now?

11 JUDGE AGIUS: [Microphone not activated]

12 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: We have been sitting for another hour and a half.

14 How long more do you anticipate you require, Mr. Ackerman?

15 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, it's difficult to tell. I'll try to

16 finish by 6.30. I might be able to. I can't say that I will. I have

17 quite a bit left to do.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. We will break for 15 minutes. Thank you.

19 --- Recess taken at 5.31 p.m.

20 --- On resuming at 5.45 p.m.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Ackerman. One moment until he puts his

22 headphones on. Yes. Thank you.

23 MR. ACKERMAN:

24 Q. Sir, we were talking about Manjaca and the visit to Manjaca of a

25 person who you claim to have been Mr. Brdjanin. It's the case, isn't it,

1 that the person who came there and went to each of the stables and spoke

2 to all of the detainees claimed to be the President of the

3 Autonomous Region of Krajina, didn't he?

4 A. I don't remember that.

5 Q. Do you remember that person claiming to have any kind of a

6 position?

7 A. I don't remember.

8 Q. Do you know what position it was that Mr. Brdjanin held in

9 November and December of 1992?

10 A. No.

11 Q. If -- if other people say that the person who came in and

12 addressed the detainees about being released and sent to third countries

13 was Vojo Kupresanin, would you agree that you could be mistaken about who

14 it was?

15 A. I wouldn't agree with that because I saw Mr. Brdjanin.

16 Q. In your testimony in the Stakic case, -- let me go -- we'll come

17 back to that. In your testimony in the Stakic case, you were talking

18 about that period of time right after the takeover in Prijedor and at page

19 4264, you talked about checkpoints that were set up. You told the Court

20 in Stakic that there were checkpoints in Kozarac, near the bridge in

21 Kalata, near the church in Kozarac, at the cross roads on the

22 Prijedor-Banja Luka road, at the entrance to Kozarac, and all the places

23 leading into Kozarac. And you said that those checkpoints were manned by

24 persons of mixed ethnicity, both Muslims and Serbs were manning those

25 checkpoints. That's correct?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Could you give us the names of any of the Serbs that were part of

3 those checkpoints?

4 A. You could see Ilija Sarajlic, Ljuban Lukic, Brane Bolta who worked

5 at Kozarac at that time. These two were reserve police officers. Goran

6 Babic, an active military person, who was also at Kozarac as a police

7 officer. Then from Balte, there was Drago -- I can't remember his last

8 name, but in any case, at that point, they were part of the police reserve

9 forces, both Serbs and Muslims in Kozarac were part of those preserve

10 forces when the checkpoints were set up.

11 Q. Yes. And these people you've named, the Serbs you named, were

12 along with Muslims manning those checkpoints, is that your testimony?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Now, we talked a few moments ago about the Kozarac police stopping

15 and disarming what you called the Chetnik reservists. You agreed when

16 Mr. Lukic asked you at page 4369 of the Stakic transcript, that the police

17 really have no authority to stop and disarm military, that that's a

18 function of the military police? Correct?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. So that really was being done as a provocation, wasn't it?

21 A. I don't know what kind of a provocation that would be. If no one

22 was -- if it wasn't a question of the Yugoslav army at that time, I didn't

23 understand who the provocation would be directed at. The question is not

24 clear to me.

25 Q. Well, it worked quite well, as a provocation, because each time it

1 was done, it got the authorities in Prijedor all upset and they make

2 threats against Kozarac, didn't they?

3 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, I think on page 4369 the witness is

4 talking -- Mr. Lukic said that soldiers could only be taken in and

5 arrested by the military police. I don't know that they were talking

6 about confiscating weapons.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: [Microphone not activated].

8 MR. ACKERMAN: [Previous translation continues] ... Precise,

9 Your Honour.

10 Q. The question you were asked, sir, was this: "Are you aware of the

11 fact that soldiers can only be taken in and arrested by the military

12 police?" Your answer was, "Yes, I'm aware of that but this is applicable

13 in a country where laws are obeyed and observed." That was actually your

14 testimony and the question you were asked, wasn't it?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And when you say that it's applicable in a country where laws are

17 obeyed and observed, you apparently were taking the position that at that

18 time in early 1992, laws were not being observed and that it was a time of

19 lawlessness and anarchy in that part of the world, correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. I think maybe this needs to be in private session, Your Honour,

22 just as a bonus to the question, let's do that.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's go in private session, Madam Registrar.

24 Please.

25 [Private session]

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10 [Open session]

11 MR. ACKERMAN:

12 Q. After you left Bosnia-Herzegovina and having been released from

13 Manjaca, you resided in a third country as a refugee, didn't you?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And there came a time when that country was getting ready to expel

16 you from the country, didn't there?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. You know a person by the name of Judge Adil Draganovic?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Do you -- you know, don't you that Judge Adil Draganovic wrote a

21 letter on your behalf regarding your situation about expulsion from that

22 third country, don't you?

23 A. Yes. [redacted]. I

24 said that.

25 Q. And you know that Judge Draganovic asked that a statement that you

1 had made, which he referred to as a statement given by a detainee from the

2 Keraterm concentration camp, you know that -- that he asked that that

3 statement be forwarded to The Hague Tribunal and that it be done so that

4 the above witness, that being you, who faces expulsion, can remain in this

5 third country and enjoy some amount of protection? That's what was asked

6 by Judge Draganovic in this communication to be sent to The Hague

7 Tribunal, to the OTP, correct?

8 A. Yes. That is all true, but if you permit me, I would ask you to

9 ask Mr. Stakic, Brdjanin and those others who forced me in 1992 to beg

10 somebody in one of those third countries to keep me because, in Bosnia, in

11 the country where I lived normally, it was not possible at that time for

12 me to return because of my fear due to everything.

13 Q. You know that after the letter was written by Judge Draganovic,

14 that the Office of the Prosecutor then wrote a letter on your behalf

15 requesting that you not be expelled from this third country until they had

16 had an opportunity to interview you, correct?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And someone from the OTP then did come and speak with you, didn't

19 they?

20 A. No. That time, they did not.

21 Q. Well, at some point you certainly spoke with representatives of

22 the OTP, didn't you?

23 A. Yes. When my status in the country where I was at was resolved,

24 not thanks to The Hague Tribunal but thanks to a law which said that the

25 person who was working, who was employed, can have their visa extended so

1 that they could stay. So that was the way in which I resolved my pressing

2 problem.

3 Q. But the fact is the OTP had written a letter on your behalf,

4 hadn't they?

5 JUDGE AGIUS: I think he has already said yes that he's aware of

6 that.

7 MR. ACKERMAN: You're right, Your Honour.

8 Q. Who was the first person from the OTP that came to interview you?

9 A. I think that it was Ms. Sullivan. I think it was her. I don't

10 know.

11 Q. And how long did that interview take? How much time was spent in

12 that interview?

13 A. The interview lasted maybe five or six hours, but I -- I cannot

14 remember.

15 Q. Was it tape recorded?

16 A. I don't know whether it was or not. The only thing I know is that

17 afterwards, that statement was read back to me and I signed it, but I

18 don't know whether it was recorded or not.

19 Q. Well, there was a lot took place before you signed your statement,

20 wasn't there?

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Can you be more precise, Mr. Ackerman, because

22 that's a very vague question.

23 MR. ACKERMAN: It is. I'll just have to take the time and get

24 there, Your Honour.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: You are in cross-examination, you can go as directly

1 as you want.

2 MR. ACKERMAN:

3 Q. Sir, this interview, did you notice a recording machine, a tape

4 recording machine, sitting there in front of you? Was there a microphone

5 sitting there in front of you when you were interviewed?

6 A. I don't remember, to tell you the truth.

7 Q. You seem to have the ability to remember things from many years

8 ago but can't remember that. Why is that? Why can't you remember if that

9 statement was being recorded?

10 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, I think I can circumvent and shorten

11 this.

12 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

13 MS. SUTHERLAND: The microphone is on. I think I can short

14 circuit this. I don't think the interview was, in fact, taped. I can

15 check but it wouldn't have been a statement that was taped.

16 MR. ACKERMAN:

17 Q. At the time -- thank you. At the time you were dealing with the

18 Office of the Prosecutor, you understood that the situation you might find

19 yourself in would be enhanced if you could convince the Office of the

20 Prosecutor that you were a very valuable witness, didn't you?

21 A. No. I'm here today, as I said, all of those problems that you're

22 mentioning now in my life have now been resolved and all of the letters

23 addressed to the Tribunal, in all of my letters addressed to the Tribunal,

24 I said that I wanted to tell the truth of what happened to me in 1992.

25 So, that's it.

1 Q. Well, we are going to come to those in a minute. The reason you

2 didn't want to be expelled from the country where you were was because you

3 were afraid, weren't you?

4 A. That's correct.

5 Q. And you were prepared to do anything that you could reasonably do

6 to avoid being expelled, weren't you?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Now, there was a time, for instance, wasn't there, when you wrote

9 a letter to Mr. Mazhar Inayat, a handwritten letter. Do you remember

10 writing that letter? It was a letter where you sent a copy of the

11 videotape of [redacted] wedding.

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. You said to Mr. Inayat in that letter, didn't you, that -- and I

14 know this is an error, you said that it was recorded in August of 1992,

15 and I know you meant 1991. You said it shows military vehicles and

16 helicopters which accompanied the column of wedding guests from the

17 village of Kozarusa all the way to Kozarac. The -- the fact of that

18 matter, sir, is this, isn't it? There was a convoy travelling that road

19 at the same time you were, which was being escorted by helicopters, as

20 convoys frequently are. It had nothing to do with that procession, did

21 it?

22 A. I've already said that we only understood that later. We didn't

23 know what was happening. Two combat helicopters along the whole route.

24 We didn't know that there was a military column behind us. But any way,

25 they were going down the length of the whole column and then once we

1 almost reached Kozarac, only then did we find out that this was an escort

2 to the military convoy, and this is why I wrote that down. I didn't say

3 that they either attacked or anything like that. They were escorting the

4 column.

5 Q. At the time you wrote this letter, you knew that, didn't you?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And what you said to Mr. Mazhar, whom you called Mr. Mazhar, was

8 that the tape shows military vehicles and helicopters which accompanied

9 the column of wedding guests from the village of Kozarusa all the way to

10 Kozarac. Those are actually your words, aren't they? We can arrange for

11 to you look at your letter, sir, if you want to.

12 A. There is no need. I've already told you that it was just as I had

13 written it. Those two helicopters were escorting the military column but

14 they were going along the whole length of that road, where the wedding

15 column was also going. I didn't say anything other than that. I don't

16 know what the real reason was, but anyway, those two helicopters followed

17 the wedding procession all the way to almost -- almost all the way to the

18 place where it turned off to go to the location where the wedding

19 celebration was to be held.

20 Q. Sir, the letter that you wrote to Mr. Inayat, Mr. Mazhar Inayat

21 that we have been talking about, is not dated. Can you tell us about when

22 it was that you sent that letter?

23 A. It could have been perhaps in 1998 but I don't know exactly. I

24 can't tell you that right now.

25 Q. You then sent -- and I don't know whether this is before or after

1 because again it's another undated letter but you wrote a letter to -- let

2 me go back to the Mazhar letter for just a second and if you want to look

3 at it, just please tell me and we'll make sure you get a chance to see it.

4 It's the case, isn't it, that nowhere in that letter do you mention

5 Mr. Brdjanin, or Mr. Brdjanin visiting Manjaca or anything at all about

6 Mr. Brdjanin? It's not in that letter, is it?

7 A. It's true that at that point, I didn't even think about

8 Mr. Brdjanin, nor did I charge him with anything. I've come here to

9 confirm that I saw him, that during my stay at Manjaca, he did come there.

10 I did not directly accuse Brdjanin, neither was that my intent at that

11 time, nor is it my intent today. I'm here just to say that he was there,

12 because I saw him and I've already explained that.

13 Q. Sir, we are actually trying to finish today and if you could have

14 answered that question, "No, I didn't mention Mr. Brdjanin," we would be a

15 little further down the road and I'd appreciate it if you would just try

16 to answer the question that I ask you. I want to go to -- the next letter

17 in my packet of letters. This is a letter that you wrote to a gentleman

18 by the name of Malik, Mr. Malik. I take it Mr. Malik is also an

19 investigator for the Office of the Prosecutor, yes?

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you know whether he's an investigator, yes or no?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.

22 MR. ACKERMAN:

23 Q. And this letter -- we need to go to private session for a moment,

24 Your Honour?

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, let's go to private session.

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15 [Open session]

16 MR. ACKERMAN:

17 Q. Now, this statement -- this letter that you wrote to Malik, you

18 talked about the weekend house and that whole series of events involving

19 your confrontation in Omarska with Meakic and who it was that had

20 destroyed your weekend house and all of that. That's what that letter was

21 about, wasn't it?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And again, you know, don't you, that much of the contents of that

24 letter is reproduced almost verbatim in your statement to the OTP,

25 correct?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And again, in that letter that you wrote to Malik you made no

3 mention of Mr. Brdjanin, did you?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. The next one, on 29 November of 1999, you wrote another letter to

6 Mr. Malik, and that's a letter where you tried to list the names of people

7 who attended [redacted] wedding and who have disappeared and not been

8 seen since. You remember writing that letter, don't you?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And that's another letter in which you made no mention of

11 Mr. Brdjanin, isn't it?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. You wrote another letter to Mr. Malik, sir, on 7 March of the year

14 2000. You told him about a person by the name of Nenad Penic who had been

15 a guard in Omarska and how Penic had claimed that he had somehow protected

16 you while you were there and you just wanted to make it clear I think that

17 that was not the case, correct?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And you made it clear to Mr. Malik that were you very willing to

20 testify at this Tribunal against people indicted for war crimes, and if

21 you'd like, I'll quote the exact language because it might be important to

22 you.

23 A. There is no need.

24 Q. All right. So essentially what I suggested to you is correct,

25 isn't it? And again in that letter you made no mention of Mr. Brdjanin,

1 did you?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Your formal statement, sir, to the Prosecutor, the one of 29

4 October, 2001, as we have discussed, contains, to a great extent, the

5 language from these various letters that you wrote to Mr. Malik, doesn't

6 it?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And on 29 October, 2001, Mr. Brdjanin had been arrested and

9 indicted by this Tribunal and when the Prosecutor investigator who talked

10 to you and took this statement, when that person talked to you, they said

11 to you, "It sure would be nice, considering all we've done for you, if you

12 said something?"

13 MS. SUTHERLAND: I object to that.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, objection sustained, Mr. Ackerman.

15 MR. ACKERMAN:

16 Q. Was it suggested to you by an investigator from the Prosecutor's

17 offers that it would be helpful if you could mention something about

18 Mr. Brdjanin?

19 A. No.

20 Q. During your examination today, sir, you were asked about the visit

21 of this delegation to Omarska that you had heard about. Do you remember

22 talking about that?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And I think you told us that the person who reported to you who

25 the members were of that delegation, was a person named Ante Slutaj. I

1 don't know how to spell that last name. Can you spell that last name for

2 me?

3 A. S-L-U-T-A-J.

4 Q. Do you know where that person is?

5 A. Not right now. I don't know where he is right now.

6 Q. Do you know that he's survived Manjaca?

7 A. Yes, he did.

8 Q. Do you know who would know where he might be?

9 A. No.

10 Q. I'd like you to look at the photograph 1128.32, please. And while

11 that photograph is being brought out, you said when you were talking about

12 this visit of the delegation to Manjaca, that -- that you could hear, even

13 though you didn't see, you -- your words were that you heard "fanatical

14 chanting," correct?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And so you heard very clearly -- I'm sorry, I said Manjaca, and I

17 meant Omarska.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Omarska.

19 MR. ACKERMAN:

20 Q. You could hear this chanting very clearly in room 15 where you

21 were, couldn't you?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And it was sufficiently loud, this singing and chanting, that

24 anyone who was in the Omarska camp would have -- would have heard that

25 noise that day, wouldn't they?

1 A. I don't know whether everybody would, but in room 15, one could

2 hear it.

3 Q. Look at 1128.32, please. You see some white plastic bottles, it

4 looks like, sitting up there on a shelf behind the people sitting there.

5 Do you see those?

6 A. Yes. This is Manjaca camp and we received it from the ICRC when

7 we got there.

8 Q. What are those? Those are water bottles, aren't they?

9 A. Yes. When the ICRC registered us at Manjaca, each of us was given

10 this water container and we went to the lake in Manjaca to fetch water in

11 them.

12 Q. Did you also get cigarettes for those who smoked?

13 A. Yes. Even those who did not smoke. All of us got two cigarette

14 packs, every two weeks, from the ICRC.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Ackerman, we need to stop within a minute's

16 time.

17 MR. ACKERMAN: I hate to keep this person for the weekend for ten

18 minutes, judge.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: I have other commitments after 6.30. We have been

20 sitting for quite a long time.

21 MR. ACKERMAN: I'll probably going to be quite embarrassed if I

22 stop now by the five or ten minutes that I'll take on Monday morning.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: There is no other option.

24 MR. ACKERMAN: All right.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: I would imagine there is also some re-examination.

1 MR. ACKERMAN: There might be, yes.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: So we need to stop now. I'm afraid you have to stay

3 in The Hague for the weekend because we can't conclude today. We will

4 continue Monday morning, and that's it. The sitting is adjourned until

5 Monday at 9.00 a.m.

6 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

7 6.30 p.m., to be reconvened on Monday,

8 the 25th day of November, 2002, at 9.00 a.m.

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