1 Wednesday, 4 June 2003

2 [Open session]

3 --- Upon commencing at 9.07 a.m.

4 [The accused entered court]

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Registrar. Could you call the case,

6 please.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Case Number IT-99-36-T, the Prosecutor versus

8 Radoslav Brdjanin.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Mr. Brdjanin, can you follow the proceedings

10 in a language that you can understand?

11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Good morning. Yes, I can.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. You may sit down.

13 Appearances for the Prosecution.

14 MS. RICHTEROVA: Good morning. Anna Richterova for the

15 Prosecution, assisted by Denise Gustin, case manager.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, and good morning to you.

17 Appearances for Mr. Brdjanin.

18 MR. ACKERMAN: Good morning, Your Honours. I'm John Ackerman.

19 I'm here with David Cunningham and Vesna Anic today. Thank you.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning to you. If there is agreement on your

21 part - and when I say your part, it means both sides, obviously - there is

22 the possibility of us sitting until the end of the month or until the 27th

23 of June, always in the morning, if that is agreeable with you.

24 MS. RICHTEROVA: Yes, it is agreeable with us.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: And I see you nod, Mr. Ackerman.

1 MR. ACKERMAN: Absolutely, yes.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: And there is one thing that basically that would

3 mean we would shift for the entire month, bar one day, to courtroom 3, but

4 if we are moving to courtroom 3, what would have been court maintenance

5 day on the 27th of June, being court maintenance day for courtroom 2,

6 where we would have been sitting, would no longer be applicable to us. So

7 I am suggesting, although we still have to decide ourselves as well, that

8 we also sit on the 27th of June. That would be an extra day. I would

9 like to know whether you agree with this as well.

10 Yes, Mr. Ackerman.

11 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, I'd suggest that on the 27th of June, we sit

12 here in courtroom 2, Your Honour, if it's available. Actually, those days

13 are really important, especially since we're going to go straight through

14 to August and I have almost no support staff at this point, and I'm -- you

15 might some day -- sometime day get a chance to read a letter I sent to the

16 Registry.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: I was reading through it.

18 MR. ACKERMAN: It's becoming --

19 JUDGE AGIUS: I'll come to it. I'll come to it.

20 MR. ACKERMAN: It's becoming a very serious problem, Your Honour.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: I'll come to it.

22 MR. ACKERMAN: A day of ability to get caught up sure is helpful.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.

24 MS. RICHTEROVA: We would like to sit all the days because of

25 course every day is very precious to us.

1 JUDGE AGIUS: I admire your sense of dedication, Madam Richterova,

2 and your enthusiasm to work every day, like the rest of us.

3 So we'll come back to you on this 27th of June later on. But the

4 probability is that we will sit that extra day.

5 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, if the Registry would assign me three more

6 lawyers like the Prosecutor has, we can sit every day and afternoons and

7 everything else.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Next, then we also have the possibility -- and

9 again my recommendation supported by my two colleagues is in the

10 positive. The week 30th June to 4th July, we were scheduled to sit in the

11 afternoon in another courtroom, in courtroom 1 or courtroom 3. I am

12 proposing to you that we sit that week in the morning, we shift to the

13 morning, but we will be sitting in this courtroom, courtroom 2. So that

14 would be an entire week in courtroom 2. If that is acceptable to you.

15 Otherwise, we stay in the afternoon and we sit where we are scheduled to

16 sit.

17 MS. RICHTEROVA: We prefer sitting in the mornings, so we do not

18 object to this.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Next thing is I received a copy of a

20 letter by Mr. Ackerman, addressed to the acting director of OLAD,

21 Ms. Monica Martinez. I haven't read it all as yet, because it was only

22 handed to me prior to the beginning of this sitting. I will go through

23 it. My recommendation at this point in time is that I would believe that

24 the letter and your request will carry much more weight, Mr. Ackerman, if

25 you have the explicit support of the Prosecution, which you have had in

1 the past. So if you can combine efforts towards the direction where you

2 were heading, I think there is a better chance; otherwise, you know that

3 the office concerned is pretty much tight within the parameters set by the

4 exigencies -- several exigencies of this Tribunal, plus practice in other

5 cases. I can promise you I will lend my support and that of my

6 colleagues, because we realise that every Defence, every accused must

7 have -- should have an adequate defence available. But before we speak

8 out, I would rather await to see what reaction there's going to be from

9 Ms. Martinez and also whether there's going to be this support from the

10 Prosecution.

11 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I gave you a copy of the communication

12 as a courtesy, after I noticed that every time Ms. Martinez was writing to

13 me about resources, she was sending a copy to you, and so I decided I

14 would -- I should do the same.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Very rarely, actually, I got copies.

16 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, her most recent communication regarding

17 Mr. Maglov, for instance, I noticed was copied to the Trial Chamber.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, that was copied. Yes. And again, I mean, you

19 may be -- you may have every good reason in the world to argue that the

20 rate of 15 Euros is not adequate, but at the same time, if that is the

21 rate that they apply to someone who is not yet a graduate --

22 [Trial Chamber confers]

23 JUDGE AGIUS: -- or 25 Euros. I don't know how much it was. 25

24 or --

25 MR. ACKERMAN: It's 15.

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. I mean, every request has to be tabled within

2 the parameters which apply to that particular office. Don't forget that

3 there are controls that are put in place here, and inspectors that come

4 and make sure that the rates are being applied, et cetera, plus there are

5 other things in the offing which would regulate precisely the remuneration

6 that would be applicable. So what I can promise you, Mr. Ackerman, is

7 that you can count on our support for whatever appears to us to be

8 reasonable. What is definitely reasonable is that you need to be in a

9 position defend your client adequately. So whatever you need ought to be

10 given to you, especially considering that this is not an easy case or a

11 normal case. It's a heavily laden case, complicated, already one year and

12 a half old almost, with thousands of pages of documents, et cetera.

13 So I'll wait to hear for some kind of response from the

14 Prosecution, and also try to get updated from -- by OLAD, and then we

15 shall take the stand that we will consider most appropriate, keeping in

16 mind the principle that I have just mentioned.

17 MR. ACKERMAN: I just wanted you to all understand that I'm not

18 making a specific request of the Chamber at this point, but simply

19 providing you with a courtesy copy. The other thing I'll mention

20 regarding the 15 Euro rate, that is a rate that's based upon the

21 entry-level position for, for instance, a case manager for the

22 Prosecutor's office, the lowest level, and that is not a person who is

23 skilled in -- who is multilingual, skilled in B/C/S, and able to translate

24 and interpret the language. So we're -- the skill level of the person

25 we're looking for is dramatically different. I've asked a number of

1 people who are here in The Hague if they know anyone who would be willing

2 to work for 15 Euros an hour, 150 hours a month in this case, and the

3 response I mostly get is laughter, because nobody is going to work for

4 that kind of money. They can command significantly more money if they

5 have the language skills that are needed for this particular job. So I

6 think the Registry is simply behind times with regard to the rate, behind

7 the economy, and I just don't think we're going to get anyone if we can't

8 do something about that. You know, who knows somebody may appear tomorrow

9 and say they'll do it, but I doubt that.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: But anyway, I will take into account what you have

11 written, and we'll come back to you, particularly after we've found out

12 exactly what the situation is.

13 So I understand the next witness enjoys some protective measures.

14 MS. RICHTEROVA: Yes. The witness was granted protective measures

15 of facial distortion, voice distortion, and pseudonym, BT64.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: So before we start and before we bring him in, do we

17 need to put the screen or we just keep the public out? In this courtroom

18 I think we would keep the public out, no?

19 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, the public is not allowed.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. And there is I suppose no filming while

21 the witness is coming in?

22 THE REGISTRAR: That's correct.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: That's correct. Okay. Next thing is may I remind

24 everyone, please, Prosecution, Registry staff, Defence, Accused, and

25 ourselves, of course, to keep your microphones switched off when the

1 witness is speaking. All right? Thanks.

2 So let's bring the witness in.

3 [The witness entered court]

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning to you, sir.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: And welcome to this Tribunal.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: You will soon be giving evidence, and before you do

9 so, our Rules require that you make a solemn declaration that in the

10 course of your testimony you will be speaking the truth, the whole truth,

11 and nothing but the truth. The text is contained in a document that is

12 being handed to you now. Please read it out aloud, and that will be your

13 solemn undertaking with this Tribunal. Go ahead.

14 WITNESS: WITNESS BT64

15 [Witness answered through interpreter]

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

17 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. You may sit down. Now, don't talk

19 unless I tell you to, okay? I will be explaining to you a few things

20 before you start giving evidence. For reasons that you pointed out to the

21 Prosecution and which were pointed out to us, we have decided to grant you

22 certain protective measures. I don't know if these have been explained to

23 you. If they haven't, or even if they have, I'm going to explain them to

24 you.

25 You will not be referred to here in the course of these

1 proceedings by your name, but you are going to be given a number, which is

2 BT90 --

3 MS. RICHTEROVA: It is BT64.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: BT64. You are going to be known and referred to as

5 BT64. So no one outside these four walls will know your name or that you

6 have testified in these proceedings.

7 Then you asked for, and we have granted, that although the

8 proceedings will be transmitted live, as they usually are, no one will be

9 able to see your image. Your face, in other words, your appearance, is

10 distorted, and if you look at the screen, at the video screen - and I ask

11 the camera to point towards the witness - you will see how others will see

12 you. No one will see your face. That's what they will see. And that's

13 also because you asked for this kind of protective measure.

14 Last but not least, you asked for your voice not to be heard

15 naturally. So what we are going to do is we are going to distort your

16 voice. So what others will hear is not your voice, but distortion of your

17 voice. That way, we have tried to do our utmost to protect your identity.

18 Does that satisfy you?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Now, the procedure that follows is the

21 following: Madam Richterova, who you certainly have met already, will be

22 asking you a series of questions. She will then be followed by

23 Mr. Cunningham, I suppose, who is one of the lawyers appearing for

24 Mr. Brdjanin, who is the accused in this trial, who will also ask you a

25 series of questions, which we call cross-examination.

1 My duty as the Presiding Judge is to draw your attention to a very

2 important principle, namely, that it is your duty, your obligation, to

3 answer every question that is put to you, irrespective of where it is

4 coming from, whether it's the Prosecution or the Defence, as fully and as

5 truthfully as possible. You have no right to make any distinction between

6 questions forthcoming from the Prosecution and questions coming from the

7 Defence. Everyone has a right to ask you questions here, including the

8 Defence, and you have a duty to answer each and every question to the best

9 of your ability, unless I personally tell you: Don't answer this

10 question, in which case you don't answer the question that is put to you.

11 Have you understood me?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: So having said that, I invite Ms. Richterova to

14 start with her examination-in-chief.

15 Examined by Ms. Richterova:

16 Q. Thank you, Your Honour.

17 Good morning, sir, and I have to apologise that you have to wait

18 for such a long time.

19 Sir, I am going to show you a piece of paper on which your name is

20 stated, and please confirm, just stating yes or no, whether you can see

21 your name.

22 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P1893, under seal.

23 MS. RICHTEROVA: Yes, that's correct.

24 A. Yes.

25 MS. RICHTEROVA: Your Honour, I would like to go to private

1 session --

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Let's go into private session for the first

3 part of the examination-in-chief, please.

4 [Private session]

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21 [Open session]

22 JUDGE AGIUS: We are in open session now. Thank you.

23 MS. RICHTEROVA:

24 Q. Sir, during 1991, are you ever at any rallies which would be

25 organised only by one ethnicity, either Bosniaks or Serbs?

1 A. Yes. Bosniaks and Serbs organised rallies in relation to the

2 founding of the parties.

3 Q. And after foundings of parties, were there some other rallies?

4 And now I am referring to the year of 1991.

5 A. In my village, no.

6 Q. And to your knowledge, in some other villages, were there any

7 rallies?

8 A. Well, yes. In the Teslic municipality, in all the villages, there

9 were rallies that were held, in relation to the founding of the parties.

10 Q. Sir, I just -- you already said that it was in connection with

11 founding these parties. Now I am asking you later, after the parties were

12 established, in 1991, before the war in Croatia started, or after the war

13 in Croatia started, were there any rallies held by one of the ethnicities,

14 some big which would struck your attention?

15 A. No. No.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: You can lead him, Madam Richterova.

17 MS. RICHTEROVA:

18 Q. In your statement, you mentioned that you learned about a big

19 rally in the village of Cecava.

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. What did you learn about this rally? Who organised it? Who

22 visited this rally? And were you present there?

23 A. No, I was not present there, but there was transport that was

24 organised for the village of Cecava, where rallies were held. It was a

25 very large rally, and from all the -- for the people from all the parts of

1 the municipality of Teslic, where there were Serbs, and Mr. Krajisnik

2 attended this rally. According to a Serb, Dusan Vukovic, that's what he

3 told me - this man told me this. I was not there, but he told me that he

4 had gone to the rally and that Mr. Krajisnik attended this rally, but I

5 know nothing else about it.

6 Q. And is it correct that this rally was organised by Serbs?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. In 1991, in the second half of 1991, to your knowledge, were there

9 any military training which would be participated only by members of one

10 ethnicity?

11 A. Yes. In the village of Ukrinica, there was in so-called

12 Territorial Defence training, and it was only for Serbs. And there was

13 one Bosniak who took part in that training. All this lasted until 1992.

14 Q. Do you know who organised this military training? Did you know

15 any of the men?

16 A. I knew men who were instructors, that is, Mr. Simic, a teacher;

17 and Mr. Jotanovic, Mr. Marinko Jotanovic; and Vlado Munic.

18 Q. You mentioned that this Simic, that he was a teacher, and Marinko

19 Jotanovic -- was Marinko Jotanovic a teacher as well?

20 A. No. I don't know what his profession -- what his occupation was,

21 but he was a Captain 1st Class in reserve. That was his rank.

22 Q. So both were reserve officers, and as reserve officers, to your

23 knowledge --

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And as reserve officers, to your knowledge, were they authorised

1 to launch such trainings?

2 A. I have no knowledge about that.

3 Q. Sir, you yourself was a commander of the Territorial Defence

4 unit. You were a reservist; is it correct?

5 A. I was not a commander. I was a reserve senior officer, as the

6 commanding officer of a company.

7 Q. Until when you were a member of reservists?

8 A. I was a member until 1989. I do not recall the date. It was

9 October.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: May I ask you to confirm the year again? Did you

11 say 1989 or some other year?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 1989.

13 MS. RICHTEROVA:

14 Q. Sir, in your statement, you mentioned October 1991 as time when

15 you received a letter that you were discharged from the military service.

16 Is it correct or not?

17 A. I, in relation to the demobilisation, I was speaking about October

18 1989.

19 Q. So it's not correct that you would be discharged from the military

20 reserves in 1991?

21 A. No, no. I don't know. I don't recall that in 1991. I don't

22 recall it as being in 1991.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's go into private session for a while, please.

24 [Private session]

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10 [Open session]

11 MS. RICHTEROVA:

12 Q. Sir, I would like to ask you one more question in respect to

13 military. Did you notice that during the time of 1991/beginning of 1992,

14 that respective ethnicities would arm themselves?

15 A. I noticed that in 1991 and in 1992, Serbs were being armed. I

16 mean, there was training and they were given weapons. They were given

17 arms, automatic weapons, hand grenades. They would return from this

18 training in Ukrinica. Sometimes they would be drunk and on the way back

19 there would be some shooting around the neighbouring villages.

20 Q. Did you see Serb civilians carrying openly weapons?

21 A. No.

22 Q. And to your knowledge, did you see any weapons which would be

23 carried by Bosniaks?

24 A. No.

25 Q. You mentioned in your statement that you saw helicopters flying

1 above your village. When was it, and where these helicopters landing on?

2 A. That was in May 1992, and they flew over our villages. They

3 landed in the village of Djulici, where there was barracks, military

4 barracks.

5 Q. Was it normal that these helicopters flew above your village?

6 Because you mentioned that in Djulici there were military barracks. Or

7 was it something exceptional?

8 A. It wasn't unusual, because every military helicopter that flew

9 over the villages, I mean, we were not concerned. We were not afraid.

10 Q. Sir, now I would direct your attention to the town of Teslic, and

11 I want to ask: Do you know who was the president of the Municipal

12 Assembly?

13 A. His name was Nikola Perisic.

14 Q. Did you know that an organ called Crisis Staff was established in

15 the town of Teslic?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Did you heard the term either "War Presidency" or "Crisis Staff"?

18 A. I heard about the terms, both "War Presidency" and "Crisis Staff,"

19 but I wouldn't know who organised that.

20 Q. Did you know or did you learn at any stage names of someone who

21 would be a member of this War Presidency?

22 A. I only knew about Mr. Perisic, because he had been the head of the

23 Teslic municipality.

24 Q. In your statement, you mentioned some other names of men of

25 authority from Teslic. Do you still remember the people who were -- who

1 held the important positions in the Teslic town?

2 A. I remember the people, but I don't know whether they were members

3 of the War Presidency.

4 Q. If we are talking about, let's say, April 1992, April/May 1992, do

5 you know who was chief of SUP or -- I'm sorry - who was the chief of the

6 SUP in Teslic?

7 A. His name was Dule Kuzmanovic.

8 Q. And as you stated, is it correct that you didn't know whether he

9 was a member of the War Presidency?

10 A. No, I don't know.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: One question. Is Dusan Kuzmanovic and Dule

12 Kuzmanovic the same person?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] His name is Dule Kuzmanovic. That

14 was how people called him. But whether he was Dule or Dusan, I don't

15 know. I knew him as Dule.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

17 MS. RICHTEROVA:

18 Q. Did you see any checkpoints, either in your village or in

19 surrounding villages, during the year 1992?

20 A. Yes. They were in my village, at the entrance to the village, in

21 Muslim houses. There was the Serb checkpoint.

22 Q. So you more or less answered the question. Who manned these

23 checkpoints? Were they policemen, military men, or who was it?

24 A. These were soldiers in multicoloured uniforms. Now, whether they

25 were policemen, I don't know. They didn't have insignia that I would be

1 able to tell apart.

2 Q. And were they of Serbian ethnicity, Bosnian ethnicity, or were

3 they a mixture?

4 A. Serbs.

5 Q. Did you know any one of them?

6 A. I knew from among them only Bozimir Vukovic.

7 Q. I want to ask you about surrender of weapons. Did you hear any

8 announcement, either over radio or conveyed personally, that people had to

9 hand over their weapons?

10 A. There was an announcement on Teslic radio. It was an order to

11 hand over weapons, that all citizens of Teslic municipality should hand

12 over their weapons by the 4th of June.

13 Q. Did you, by any chance, know whose order it was?

14 A. On the order of Mr. Perisic. That was the announcement said on

15 the Teslic radio.

16 Q. And this order was for all the citizens or only for some

17 ethnicities?

18 A. All the citizens.

19 Q. And where were you supposed to hand over these weapons?

20 A. To the Territorial Defence staff in Teslic.

21 Q. To your knowledge, were there any weapons in your village?

22 A. There were sporting, hunting rifles, and some people would have a

23 pistol, legally owned pistols with permits. And there was sporting

24 rifles, hunting rifles, people who were hunters.

25 Q. And again, to your knowledge, did everybody hand over their

1 weapons?

2 A. As far as my village is concerned, hunting rifles and pistols were

3 all handed over, because I also had a pistol and I handed it over.

4 Q. Did you learn from someone that there would be some villages which

5 wouldn't hand over their weapons?

6 A. No.

7 Q. If I could refresh your memory again: Reading from your

8 statement, you stated that hoping to avoid the fate of some other villages

9 which had come under armed attack, such -- "Rajseva, Kamenica, Stenjak,

10 Komusina, Slatina, Studenci, and Hrankovic, I too handed over my pistols."

11 Why this listed villages were attacked?

12 MR. CUNNINGHAM: Excuse me, Your Honour. I'm going to object to

13 that statement. It calls for speculation on his part.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Not necessarily. If he has information, it seems

15 that they reached a decision in his village to hand down -- hand over the

16 pistols, precisely of knowledge that they had about attacks in these

17 villages having occurred previously. So if they had information on those

18 attacks, perhaps he also had information on why those villages had been

19 attacked.

20 So Madam Richterova, I suggest that you put the question again,

21 because in the meantime, I may have distracted the witness.

22 MS. RICHTEROVA: Yes. I will do it.

23 Q. I listed you names -- I listed you some villages, and you stated:

24 To avoid the fate of these villages, we handed over my pistol. How --

25 what was the fate of these villages, and why these villages were attacked,

1 if you know?

2 A. No, I don't know. Perhaps --

3 Q. But you stated: Hoping to avoid the fate. So there had to be

4 something behind your decision. If you can explain to us why you -- why

5 you stated this in your statement. Of course, if it is not true, tell us

6 it's not true.

7 A. I don't know. I don't know about that. I don't know anything

8 about that.

9 [Trial Chamber confers]

10 MS. RICHTEROVA:

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10 and therefore -- no, no, no, but we still have to take action, because

11 the -- we are not in private session, so there is a transmission. And

12 what the public would hear, albeit distorted, there would still be his

13 name. And therefore, we are ordering that his name will be redacted from

14 the transmission.

15 THE INTERPRETER: Mr. President, the interpreter didn't mention

16 the name of the witness.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: I know, but what I mean to say is this: That

18 whoever will be following the transmission with the 30-minute delay would

19 be hearing the distorted voice of the witness in Serbo-Croat, presumably,

20 and the fact that it is distorted would not eliminate the mentioning of

21 his name if his name was indeed mentioned. So what I'm asking is that,

22 taking advantage of the 30-minute delay, that part of the transmission

23 where the witness, in his own language, mentions his own name, be deleted

24 or not transmitted. Have I made myself understood or does it create

25 problems? Yes, but I want to know, because no one is telling me whether

1 it's clear or not.

2 [Trial Chamber confers with registrar]

3 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. I'm told that there is some technical

4 difficulty because the technicians themselves are not in a position

5 exactly to distinguish where the name was mentioned. So they are going to

6 do is they are going to obliterate a chunk where they assume -- actually,

7 the witness's answer. I'm just informing you of that, and we can proceed.

8 In the meantime, sir, please try to help us. Don't mention your

9 own name ever. We are trying to protect you, but if you mention your

10 name, others will hear it. And also, if by any chance you are referring

11 to members of your own family or close friends who used to live near you,

12 neighbours, don't mention their names. Otherwise, if you need to mention

13 the names, tell me so and we will go into private session, and that would

14 make it possible for you to mention the names, because no one would hear

15 them. Do you understand me?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, thank you. I'll bear that in

17 mind.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Richterova. You may proceed. Thank you.

19 MS. RICHTEROVA:

20 Q. Sir, you mentioned that you were arrested by four soldiers or four

21 men in uniforms. Would you be so kind and describe their uniforms.

22 A. They were multicoloured uniforms, multicoloured.

23 Q. Did you notice whether they wore any belts?

24 A. Yes, they had belts.

25 Q. Which colour?

1 A. One of them had a white belt, and the others had the kind of belts

2 that were worn by the former JNA troops.

3 Q. Do you know which ethnicity they were?

4 A. I suppose they were Serbs.

5 (Redacted)

6 (Redacted)

7 (Redacted)

8 (Redacted)

9 (Redacted)

10 (Redacted)

11 (Redacted)

12 (Redacted)

13 (Redacted)

14 (Redacted)

15 (Redacted)

16 (Redacted)

17 (Redacted)

18 MS. RICHTEROVA:

19 Q. Sir, you were taken to Gornja Radnja. Where in Gornja Radnja you

20 were taken?

21 A. They took me to the youth centre, which was also the seat of the

22 local commune, and that is where the headquarters of their command was.

23 Q. When you were arrested, were you handcuffed?

24 A. They wanted to tie my hands with a piece of rope while I was being

25 driven to Gornja Radnja. I didn't allow them to do that, and they didn't

1 tie me.

2 Q. In Gornja Radnja, who did you meet?

3 A. I arrived at their command there.

4 Q. Did you meet the commander?

5 A. The commander, Nedeljko Subotic, also known as Bombas.

6 Q. Who else was with this Nedeljko Subotic?

7 A. There was Marinko Jotanovic.

8 Q. You mentioned Nedeljko Subotic. Did you know his name at the time

9 you met him, or did you learn his name at some later stage?

10 A. I did not know at the time what his name was. I learned it only

11 later. And as for Marinko, I knew him.

12 Q. What happened to you after you arrived to Gornja Radnja? Were you

13 interrogated?

14 A. Yes, I was interrogated. It was the commander, Subotic, who

15 interrogated me. He told me that according to a letter that they had,

16 there were 15 guns and three machine-guns in my village, and I answered to

17 that that this is not correct.

18 Q. How were you treated during the interrogation?

19 A. A man called Dragan hit me. He is from Podnovlje, a village

20 between Doboj and Modrica. The name of that village is Podnovlje. I

21 don't know how far that -- the distance between these places is.

22 Q. You say that this one Dragan hit you. During the interrogation,

23 were you hit only one time?

24 A. No. I was hit several times. My nose started bleeding and I also

25 started bleeding from my mouth.

1 Q. Was it only Dragan who participated in beating you, or was it also

2 this Subotic?

3 A. Only Dragan and another soldier.

4 Q. For how long this interrogation lasted?

5 A. An hour.

6 Q. During the interrogation, at any time did you lose your

7 consciousness?

8 A. Yes. When I was beaten, I lost my consciousness.

9 Q. Did they use any objects to beat you or just their arms?

10 A. I was kicked, I was clubbed, I was hit with something that looked

11 like a baseball bat, made of wood.

12 Q. You stated that this interrogation lasted for about one hour.

13 What happened after this one hour?

14 A. I was put in a Golf car. I was handcuffed and I was taken to

15 Djulici, to the school there, which housed the command of the military

16 police.

17 Q. Do you remember who was the person who took you to Djulici?

18 A. I remember. It was Dragan from Podnovlje and Marinko Jotanovic.

19 Q. You were taken in Djulici. How long did you stay in Djulici?

20 A. 15 to 20 minutes.

21 Q. And after that, where were you taken?

22 A. To Pribinic, and there was a camp there.

23 MS. RICHTEROVA: Your Honour, I would like to show the witness

24 some photographs. I can provide the photographs. Their Exhibit numbers

25 are P1955.1 until .10. Can you just place them one by one on the ELMO.

1 Q. And if you could, sir, tell us whether you can recognise any of

2 these pictures.

3 A. I can see the building in Pribinic which housed the camp.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. I would like the technicians to adjust

5 the field of view in a way that I can see the exhibit number and ERN

6 number, please. Yes. Perfect.

7 So the witness, for the record, the witness has just been referred

8 to and answered a question related to Exhibit P1955.1, with ERN number

9 0219-4087.

10 MS. RICHTEROVA:

11 Q. Sir, can you describe this building? Where is the entrance, and

12 where were you kept?

13 A. The entrance is here. This is the entrance. Here you can see

14 it. There was a storage here, and behind this door there was another

15 door, and we would go through that door to the storage, and this is where

16 we were kept.

17 Q. Do you know what there was before in this -- what this building

18 was used for before it was turned into the camp?

19 A. Before the war, this was a store which sold agricultural chemicals

20 and things like that, and we used to call it Apoteka.

21 Q. And we can see another building adjacent to this red/yellow

22 building. What was that building used for?

23 A. This other building adjacent to the first one used to be a post

24 office, and the military police that guarded the camp was accommodated

25 here. And this used to be a solitary cell. Everybody who was brought

1 here would spend two or three days in this solitary cell in the middle.

2 Q. Thank you. I am done with the photographs. We were lucky.

3 Immediately the first photograph was the right one. Yes, we are done with

4 all the photographs.

5 Sir, after you were taken to Pribinic, did you know who was the

6 camp commander of this prison?

7 A. Dragan Babic.

8 Q. Did you know Dragan Babic from before?

9 A. Yes, I did. He worked in Masinstvo, so I did know him from

10 before.

11 Q. After you enter the camp, where were you taken?

12 JUDGE AGIUS: I would suggest that we redact: "He worked in

13 Masinstvo," because that gives the impression that the witness himself had

14 anything to do with that factory or whatever it is.

15 MS. RICHTEROVA: To my knowledge, the witness has nothing to do

16 with this --

17 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. So we go ahead. All right.

18 MS. RICHTEROVA:

19 Q. I'm sorry. Where were you taken inside of the Pribinic prison?

20 A. I was taken to this other part of the building, the so-called

21 solitary cell.

22 Q. After your arrival, were you interrogated?

23 A. No. I was still handcuffed when I got out of the car. Mr. Babic

24 had a club in his hands, the one that I described before, and I was still

25 handcuffed. He hit me four times on the back.

1 Q. After you were hit by Babic, what happened then?

2 A. Then he took me to this solitary cell. There was just one chair

3 there. I sat down on that chair. Later on he came in. He gave me a

4 piece of paper and instructed me to write down the names of those who

5 possessed arms in my village.

6 Q. And did you write this information for Mr. Babic?

7 A. I wrote down the names of those who had hunting rifles and sports

8 guns, and those who had pistols.

9 Q. And was Dragan Babic satisfied with your answer?

10 A. He was not satisfied with my list, and he started beating me. But

11 he only kicked me on the back, and I lost consciousness after that.

12 Q. After you regained consciousness, did you stay in the solitary or

13 were you taken somewhere else?

14 A. I remained there.

15 Q. For how long did you stay in this solitary cell?

16 A. I arrived on the 30th of June; it was a Tuesday. And I stayed

17 until Thursday, sometime after noon. I believe it was around 1.00 in the

18 afternoon.

19 Q. And one question: This Dragan Babic, did he wear any uniform?

20 A. Yes, a multicoloured uniform.

21 Q. And did you know whether he belonged to normal military or

22 military police or just police?

23 A. He was a military policeman, but he was a member of the reserve

24 force. I believe that's what they called it.

25 Q. I think we can recognise it according to name, but can you tell us

1 what was his ethnicity.

2 A. He was a Serb.

3 Q. While you were in this solitary cell, did any of soldiers or

4 policemen enter the cell?

5 A. Only the guards entered the cell.

6 Q. Did you know any of them?

7 A. No, I didn't. The only person I knew was Dragan.

8 Q. And you are still referring to Dragan Babic?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Did you know a person named Dragan Panic?

11 A. Yes, I knew him. Dragan Panic and Dragan from Modrica came to see

12 me when I was transferred there. They came around 11.00 and they were

13 drunk.

14 Q. And how did they treat you? You said that they entered and they

15 were drunk. What happened?

16 A. Dragan from Modrica beat me.

17 Q. And did Dragan Panic participate in this beating?

18 A. He just gave me two kicks with a bat.

19 Q. After spending some time in the solitary, where were you

20 transferred?

21 A. They took me to the storage, where other people were, the place

22 that I have just shown to you.

23 Q. Do you remember how many other people were already kept in this

24 other room?

25 A. There was Mujo Tenic, Hasan Iriskic, Pavle Grgic, Asim Skopljak,

1 and Slavko whose last name I don't know.

2 Q. Can you now describe us the condition in the Pribinic? And let's

3 start with hygiene. Did you have toilets?

4 A. We had an outside toilet facility made of timber. It was some 20

5 metres from the entrance to the camp.

6 Q. Was it a dry toilet, as called a Polish toilet, I think?

7 A. Yes. It was a makeshift facility.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: I keep learning new things.

9 MS. RICHTEROVA:

10 Q. Did you have enough water?

11 A. We had water. We were not prevented from drinking as much water

12 as we could.

13 Q. Were you able to bathe yourself?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Did you shave yourself?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Were you allowed to change your clothes during the time of your

18 confinement?

19 A. No. I spent 105 days there. I never had a bath, I never had a

20 change of clothes. I never cut my nails. I never shaved.

21 Q. And sir, what about meals? Did you have enough meals? How often

22 did you receive your meal?

23 A. We received a meal between 3.00 and half past 3.00 every day. This

24 was lunch. We did not have breakfast, we did not have dinner. The only

25 thing that we received was lunch. We did not have enough food. And every

1 time we went to take that one meal of the day, they would beat us and they

2 would ill-treat us.

3 Q. Where did you sleep? Did you have beds?

4 A. No. We slept in the storage, and we only had wooden pallets.

5 Q. And can you describe just the daily routines in Pribinic? Did you

6 stay inside of the building the whole time or were you ordered to work?

7 A. We stayed inside most of the time. Only younger people were taken

8 out to chop wood for the bakery.

9 Q. Sir, how many detainees were in the prison? Was the number -- did

10 the number vary?

11 A. It varied. At times there were up to 25 or 30 of us; at times

12 there were 15 of us; at times there were 7 of us.

13 Q. And when were you released?

14 A. I was released on the 10th of May, 1992.

15 Q. I think it -- would you be so kind and repeat once again the date

16 when you were released, please.

17 A. 5th of October, 1992, I was exchanged.

18 Q. And during the whole time, can you estimate how many people

19 altogether were kept in the Pribinic camp?

20 A. I believe that around 200 people passed through that camp during

21 that period.

22 Q. Sir, do you remember names of any of the guards in Pribinic camp?

23 A. I knew Babic. I knew Milivoj, whose last name I don't know. Then

24 Miro Pejic, Mile Bozic.

25 Q. When you are giving the names, can you slow down so the transcript

1 can catch the names. So would you be so kind and start again the names of

2 people who guarded you in Pribinic camp.

3 A. Dragan Babic, Milivoj, whose last name I don't know; Miro Bozic --

4 I apologise. Mile Bozic. Miro Pejic. Milorad Gojic, also known as

5 Mico. Drago Kupresak. Ozrenko Gacic. Slavisa Kolobaric. These are the

6 men that I knew. And there was also another person, Zoran Markovic.

7 Q. These people --

8 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. Let's stop here for the time being.

9 We'll have a 25-minute break. Thank you.

10 --- Recess taken at 10.31 a.m.

11 --- On resuming at 11.04 a.m.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. I recognise Mr. Ackerman.

13 MR. ACKERMAN: I'm sorry. I just didn't sit down quick enough,

14 Your Honour.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Oh, I see.

16 Yes, Ms. Richterova. Please proceed.

17 MS. RICHTEROVA:

18 Q. Sir, before the adjournment, you gave us the name of people who

19 guarded you in the Pribinic camp. Were all these men members of -- to

20 your knowledge, were all these men members of the military police?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Were they all of the Serb ethnicity?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And did you know them personally?

25 A. Just Babic. Not the others.

1 Q. And how did you learn their names?

2 A. During that time while I was there, they would be calling each

3 other, so that's how I picked it up.

4 Q. Sir, during the time of your detention, were you told why you were

5 detained?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Were you ever charged with any crime?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Were you or other detainees interrogated during the stay in the

10 Pribinic camp?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Who did the interrogation? Were they the same people who guarded

13 you or were there some other people who did the questioning?

14 A. The questioning was led by Aleksa Jovic, deputy commander of the

15 military police.

16 Q. Only Aleksa Jovic was the person who interrogated you, or was

17 there somebody else?

18 A. While I was there, he was the only one who came, on a couple of

19 occasions, to interrogate me.

20 Q. Sir, in your statement, you mentioned Drazenko Kupresak as the

21 person who most frequently did the questioning. Is it correct or is it

22 not?

23 A. I do not recall that.

24 Q. But this Drazenko Kupresak was one of the men who was among the

25 guards in the Pribinic?

1 A. Yes. Drazenko was a guard. He did not interrogate. Aleksa Jovic

2 came to interrogate.

3 Q. Sir, how were you treated during your stay in the Pribinic? We

4 already heard about the condition under which you live in the camp,

5 hygiene, et cetera, but how were you physically treated?

6 A. Every morning, Dragan Babic called for us to get breakfast, but

7 instead of breakfast, we would be beaten up, all of us, one by one, no

8 matter how many people there were in the camp at one time. Everybody

9 would be beaten up, every single morning.

10 Q. And was it only Dragan Babic who beat you, who did the beating, or

11 did other guards participate in the beatings?

12 A. Others too. Milivoje and others. All of them, if Babic wasn't

13 there, then the same thing would happen.

14 Q. Sir, in your statement, you mentioned that you developed

15 pneumonia. Were you provided with some medical aid?

16 A. Yes. There was some medical help. I was taken to the hospital in

17 Pribinic. There was Dr. Rade Kalamanda who was there. He examined me and

18 he diagnosed me with pneumonia and prescribed me five shots of

19 penicillin. And every day I would go and be administrated penicillin.

20 Q. Did anybody else sustain some injuries or develop some disease for

21 which he would need to be medically attended?

22 A. There were a lot of people who were injured, Mustafa Dzafic, for

23 instance, Petar, whose last name I don't know, also known as Pero. These

24 people were injured. They had been beaten up. And they ended up having

25 infections and they died. And also Remzija Jasarevic.

1 Q. Apart from you, did anybody else receive any medical help?

2 A. Only Mujo Tenic, because he had had a shotgun wound in his leg,

3 and he went with me every day to have his wound dressed.

4 Q. Sir, during your stay, to your knowledge, did anybody die in the

5 camp?

6 A. Yes. Before I arrived, there was Asim Skopljak, who had been

7 brought for 25 days before me, and he told us then three men had died.

8 Two of them he didn't know, and one of them, called Semso, also succumbed

9 to his injuries. He was arrested the same time as he was. He was from

10 Topcic Polje, near Zenica.

11 Q. About the deaths of these three men you learned from this person,

12 Asim, did you personally witness any killings?

13 A. For these three men, no.

14 Q. I am not asking about these three men. I just stated that you

15 learned about these three men from Asim Skopljak. But you personally,

16 after you arrived to the camp, did you witness any killings?

17 A. Yes. Mustafa Dzafic succumbed to his injuries. Pero, from the

18 environs of Kotor Varos, he was a person who was retarded mentally. Then

19 another man called Petar. Then Juro Erejz, then Remzija Jasarevic.

20 That's five people.

21 Q. Can we just now briefly, if I ask you to go through these killings

22 and state what you saw personally, how these people were killed or how

23 these people died.

24 A. They were inflicted injuries, arms and legs, and they developed

25 infections; and because of that, they died. As far as Pero is concerned,

1 who was mentally retarded, I went out with him to clean the compound, to

2 clean the cigarette butts in front of the offices where the military

3 police were. And then Milivoje whose last name I don't know, approached

4 us. He was holding a metal bar and he approached Pero, hit him on the

5 side of his back and head, hit him once. And Pero fell. And then I

6 lifted him up. I poured some water over him. That's what Milivoje

7 ordered me to do. And again when Pero got up, he didn't collect

8 cigarettes butts. Again he was hit again. And then Pero fainted. Again

9 I poured water over him and I went to look for help so that if somebody

10 could help me to bring him into the room where we were. The next day,

11 Pero died.

12 Q. You mentioned another person called Petar. This Petar is

13 different from this Pero, this mentally disabled man?

14 A. Pero is mentally retarded, and Petar is a different person, from

15 the area of Zepak, between Sera and Zepca.

16 Q. What happened to this Petar?

17 A. He also had been beaten up. He fainted and was out of it for two

18 days, and then he died.

19 Q. Did you witness his killing personally?

20 A. Well, I was there when they were beating him up and when he lost

21 consciousness.

22 Q. Do you still remember which of the guards participated in beatings

23 of this man?

24 A. Milivoje, whose last name I don't know, and Dragan Babic.

25 Q. Then you mentioned Mustafa Dzafic. How did Mustafa Dzafic die?

1 A. Mustafa Dzafic had an injury inflicted. There were three soldiers

2 that entered. I didn't know them. They hit him a couple of times on left

3 or right arm; I don't recall that. And Dzafic also suffered a kind of

4 sepsis, an infection of the arm. He was a medic by profession. He asked

5 for medical help. They didn't let him have it. And after that beating

6 up, four or five days later - I don't recall exactly, because a lot of

7 time has passed - Dzafic succumbed to his injuries.

8 Q. Sir, you mentioned that three soldiers unknown to you entered, and

9 I presume that they entered the room in which you were kept. Are you

10 talking about regular soldiers or military soldiers, or are you talking

11 about military police?

12 A. These three soldiers I didn't know them. They didn't come here to

13 be guards.

14 Q. Further, you mentioned Juro Erejz. Can you tell us how this

15 person died.

16 A. Juro Erejz arrived in the evening, in front of this place where we

17 were. He was beaten. I didn't see them. When they beat him up real

18 good. Then they put him in the room where we were. That was in the

19 evening. It was dark. There was no electricity. And in the morning,

20 when we woke up, he had all bruises all over his body, on his back, on his

21 kidneys, and in the evening we went to the toilet, and in the course of

22 that -- in the course of that evening, Erejz died on his back -- on his

23 way back from the toilet.

24 Q. Do you know who beat him, who did the beating?

25 A. I don't know. I didn't see it. That was happening in front of

1 our door. That's why I don't know.

2 Q. And are you at least aware whether the beating was done by the

3 guards or, again, people who came from the outside?

4 A. He told us in the morning that he had been brought in a van, that

5 there were -- these were different people. I don't know. Really, I can't

6 describe something I didn't see.

7 Q. Are you stating that he was arrived -- he arrived to the Pribinic

8 already in the state that he was beaten on previous occasion?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And did they continue to beat him also after he arrived to the

11 Pribinic?

12 A. I said they arrived. He was beaten when they brought him. And he

13 immediately died the following day. He slept that night, and the next

14 morning, the next day, he died.

15 Q. And you also mentioned Jasarevic, Remzija Jasarevic, as another

16 person who died in the Pribinic camp. Can you tell us how this person

17 died?

18 A. Remzija was brought. He was in the cell much more than we were.

19 When he was brought there, he had already been beaten up, and when he

20 arrived, he was further beaten by Dragan Babic, by Milivoje and by a man

21 who called Srbijanac. I don't know this young man. He was tall. I don't

22 know his name.

23 Q. And these five persons you witnessed as being killed are all

24 which -- who were killed, whose deaths you witnessed personally?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. And you learned about three other men via Asim Skopljak; is it

2 correct?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Was there any time that the International Red Cross would come to

5 the Pribinic camp?

6 A. No. We would feel if something was happening. I know that people

7 would be looking for us, and then we would be transferred to the cellar of

8 a school nearby. We would be hidden in the basement. Sometimes we would

9 spend ten hours in the basement, sometimes at night, from the evening

10 until the morning, and then they would return us back to the camp. I

11 never saw that we were visited by anybody from the ICRC.

12 Q. To your knowledge, was Dragan Babic ever replaced from his

13 position?

14 A. Yes. Aleksa Jovic came in his place. He took me and Ibrahim

15 Ceric out and he asked us: Who has been beating you the most? Just tell

16 me freely. We said that we were beaten most by Babic, by Zoran Markovic,

17 and by Milivoje. The next morning already they were replaced.

18 Q. Who did replace them?

19 A. I presume that Aleksa Jovic was the person who replaced them. I

20 don't have any other idea.

21 Q. Sir, in your statement, you mentioned two names, Stojan Radic and

22 Mile Marjanovic. Do you remember these names and whether these persons

23 ever worked in the camp?

24 A. Yes. Stojan Radic was a deputy. He was a deputy to Milorad

25 Gojic, also known as Mico. While Mile Marjanovic was carrying out the

1 duty -- I wouldn't know exactly. I mean, he's the one who spared us. For

2 instance, when we would go to the toilet, we wouldn't have to -- we

3 wouldn't have to put our hands on our head like this, but we would

4 normally walk, with our hands down. But with everyone else, we would have

5 to put our hands up on our head and return like that as well.

6 Q. After you -- after Dragan Babic and other men were replaced, did

7 the maltreatment continue or was everything in order?

8 A. The same continued. The same people came.

9 Q. You said that some guards were replaced, and now you are stating

10 the same people. What do you mean, stating the same people?

11 A. I mean the same people who replaced those guards, they continued

12 with the mistreatment and the beatings.

13 Q. Sir, did -- do you know the name Predrag Radulovic?

14 A. No. Mr. Predrag Radulovic came to our camp. I don't exactly know

15 the date. We were standing facing the wall, with three fingers raised.

16 That's how we were standing. A person came in, a civilian. He said:

17 Turn around and hello. And we turned. He said: Sit down. So we sat

18 down. He introduced him. He said: I'm Predrag Radulovic, also known as

19 Pile. I have established civilian authority in Teslic, and the camp will

20 be disbanded on Monday. It was Saturday when he arrived. After that, he

21 never came and we never saw him again.

22 Q. Sir, I know that it is -- it happened many years ago, but would

23 you be able to tell us in which month Predrag Radulovic arrived to the

24 camp?

25 A. I think that was at the end of July. I don't know the date. I

1 forgot.

2 Q. And as you already stated, you were released from the camp on 5th

3 of October, 1992, and you were exchanged; is it correct?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. You were -- you also stated that you were maltreated in the camp.

6 Can you very briefly tell us whether you developed any medical condition

7 after this beating which would sustain until these days?

8 A. Yes. I had injuries on my back, and I have a problem with my

9 foot. I have trouble walking. When I walk, it would frequently happen

10 that I actually fall.

11 Q. Sir, I would like to show you one document. You have already seen

12 this document during the proofing, and I would like you to make a comment

13 on the content of this document. It's -- the exhibit number is P1941.

14 MS. RICHTEROVA: If we could place the English version on the

15 ELMO.

16 Q. And sir, I am referring to the third paragraph, starting on the

17 fourth line, and I will read it slowly in English. And I want from you to

18 tell whether it reflects accurately the situation as you experienced:

19 "They had aided --" the first paragraph, or the first line, is

20 talking about people like Srdjan Marjanovic, Sladjan Covic, Zoran Jorgic,

21 et cetera, and the text continues:

22 "They had aided the Mice group in perpetrating crimes, and after

23 the Mice were arrested, the said group of military policemen, under

24 command of the company commander Srdjan Marjanovic, without leaving any

25 written traces, continued to arrest large numbers of Muslims and Croats,

1 detained them in the military prison in Pribinic, and then disappeared

2 without trace. After establishing the military prison in Pribinic, no

3 written orders for arrest or detention access, no for the reasons for the

4 arrest or detention of any person, apart from cases when this SGB carried

5 out -- SJB, I'm sorry, carried out the criminal investigation."

6 And then it follows, says: "It is assumed that over ten persons

7 in Pribinic military prison were killed in the most cruel fashion by

8 severe beating. The organs of the military police never brought any

9 criminal charges for any criminal activities against these persons."

10 This document is dated 22nd of September, and before I ask my

11 question, I only want to state that this official note is attachment to a

12 letter which is under Exhibit P1942, and that letter follows in your

13 binders this official note. And I must say that, unfortunately, another

14 document was wrongly copied as attachment to this letter. You can see

15 from the logic of things that the document which is wrongly attached is --

16 ERN number is 0110-4838, has nothing to do with the content of the letter

17 dated 29 of September, 1992. So I would appreciate if you could disregard

18 the document of the stated ERN number.

19 Now, sir, as I read the part of this official note and you managed

20 to read it as well, does it reflect accurately what you experienced?

21 A. I don't know anything about this document. This is dated 22nd

22 September, 1992. I was in Pribinic at the time, and I am not familiar

23 with this. I am not familiar with the people who are mentioned here.

24 These people were not brought there while I was there. I mentioned the

25 individuals who were killed, and as for these, I'm not familiar with any

1 of these names.

2 Q. Sir, you didn't listen to my question. I was only asking whether

3 the fact that people were arrested and detained in the Pribinic camp is

4 correct information, and the fact that people were killed in the Pribinic

5 camp is correct information.

6 A. These are the facts. I told you a little while ago that people

7 were killed. But I don't know anything about this document, and I

8 certainly can't speak about things that I don't know anything of.

9 Q. Thank you.

10 MS. RICHTEROVA: Your Honour, I have one more question. I'm

11 sorry. I'm done with this document. I have one more question.

12 Q. At any time of your detention, have you -- did you hand over or

13 were you asked to hand over any money, any valuable things to any of the

14 guards in the Pribinic camp?

15 A. People who were brought to Pribinic -- for example, I, when I

16 came, I had a watch and an ID card. These were taken away from me and

17 never returned to me. I personally did not have any money on me.

18 Q. And sir, to your knowledge, was any valuable taken from your

19 house?

20 A. No. My house was torched, together with all the things inside.

21 Q. And sir, if I may refresh your memory: You stated that the keys

22 from your car had to be handed over to one Stojan Radic. Is this

23 information correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. When did it happen?

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1 A. I was in the Pribinic camp, and my car, Zastava 101, remained

2 behind. I had bought it one year before the war. My car was in the

3 garage. I don't know whether Stojan knew about that or not, but in any

4 case, he came to my nephew, to my brother's son, and asked for the car

5 keys. And the car keys were among the ashes of the house. We did not

6 have the car keys. The garage was open, but there were no car keys. He

7 broke into the car, and he managed to start the engine. He drove the car

8 away and he smashed it.

9 Q. Thank you, sir.

10 MS. RICHTEROVA: This was my last question.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Madam Richterova.

12 Sir, you're going now to be cross-examined by Mr. David

13 Cunningham.

14 Mr. Cunningham.

15 MR. CUNNINGHAM: May I proceed, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Please do.

17 Cross-examined by Mr. Cunningham:

18 Q. Good morning, sir. I want to ask you some questions, and the

19 first area of questions that I'm going to talk to you about involves the

20 time period of 1990 to 1991. And to help you with the questions, I'll try

21 to make them as short as I can.

22 You told us that in 1990 and 1991, that there were changes that

23 you noticed in the Serbs. Do you remember that testimony.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Switch off your microphone, please.

25 MR. CUNNINGHAM: I'm sorry, Your Honour.

1 JUDGE AGIUS: It's okay. Yes, go ahead.

2 MR. CUNNINGHAM:

3 Q. This was the same time period when the national parties were being

4 formed. Is that correct?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And each of the ethnic groups had their own national party.

7 Correct?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. You told us that you heard from a friend about a Serb rally in

10 1991. Do you remember that testimony?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Isn't it true, in your municipality, that the other political

13 parties had rallies as well?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And did you attend, for example, any SDA rallies?

16 A. No. No.

17 Q. I'm going to change the topics a little bit, because another area

18 you talked about was how, in 1991, you noticed that there were more Serbs

19 in uniforms in your municipality. First of all, do you remember

20 talking -- telling us about that in your testimony this morning?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And I believe in your written statement, that you started noticing

23 the increased number of Serbs in the military and Serb reservists in your

24 municipality in October of 1991. Does that time frame, October 1991, when

25 you saw the Serb reservists and the Serb military in your municipality,

1 does that sound right?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. The war with Croatia -- let me start again. By October of 1991,

4 the war in Croatia was ongoing; isn't that correct?

5 A. I wouldn't know that. I did not make that my business. I only

6 heard it on the media. But personally, I don't have any knowledge of

7 that. But yes, I did hear about the war breaking out then.

8 Q. Okay. And while you were not in the reserves at this time, were

9 you aware of the fact that many Bosniak men had not answered the call to

10 mobilisation? Were you aware of that?

11 A. No.

12 Q. You told us that one of the things you saw during this time frame,

13 in 1991, is that you saw Serb reservists in your municipality. First of

14 all, do you remember that testimony?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And you also told us that you knew that there was at least one

17 Bosniak who was joining in the training sessions in your municipality. Do

18 you remember that testimony?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Do you know why it is that only one Bosniak was involved in these

21 training exercises? If you know, it's fine; if you don't know, it's fine

22 too.

23 A. I don't know. I wouldn't be able to answer that.

24 Q. Do you know whether or not that there was a military prison in

25 Pribinic?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. You knew that before you were detained?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And as far as you know, was that military prison run by the

5 military authorities, to the exclusion of the civilian authorities?

6 A. The military authorities.

7 Q. I want to take you now to around May and June of 1992 and go over

8 some of your testimony during that time frame. You told us this morning

9 in your testimony that during that time period, there was a demand made

10 upon the local population to turn in their weapons. First of all, do you

11 remember testifying about that demand this morning?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. One of the things you testified to this morning was the fact that

14 during this time period, in late May and early June of 1992, the military

15 came and conducted searches of houses. Do you remember that testimony?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. When the individuals conducted -- when -- let me back up to make

18 the question clear. When the military conducted these searches we are now

19 talking about, there was no indication in your testimony that they

20 destroyed the houses or abused individuals during their search. So here's

21 my question: Did any of that happen? Did you see any of that happen,

22 abuse to the citizens during the searches back in June of 1992?

23 A. I was talking about my village. As for others, I wouldn't know. I

24 can't talk about other villages. I can only talk about the things that I

25 saw in the area where I resided.

1 Q. And I appreciate the distinction that you're drawing, but could

2 you tell us what you saw, with your own eyes, in your village.

3 A. I've said that they came, that they searched houses, and that

4 their behaviour was correct. They did not ill-treat anybody. They did

5 not beat anybody. They did not take any things away. There was no

6 looting, so to speak.

7 Q. I'm going to change topics on you. I'm going to now talk to you

8 about some of the events at Pribinic. One of the individuals that you

9 told us about that was involved in the mistreatment of you and other

10 individuals was an individual whose first name was Dragan, and he was from

11 a village near Doboj. Do you know who I'm talking about when I refer to

12 this man?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Do you know if Dragan was a member of a group called the Red

15 Berets, or did you ever see him -- let me just ask the first question: Do

16 you know if he was affiliated with a group known as the Red Berets?

17 A. No.

18 Q. During the time that you were in camp, in the Pribinic camp, did

19 you hear anyone make any reference to the Red Berets?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Did you hear anyone make reference to a group called the Mice?

22 A. No. While I was in Pribinic, I never heard that.

23 Q. I'm going to talk to you about some of the events in July and

24 August, while you were in custody in Pribinic. You testified to us this

25 morning about an individual by the name of Aleksa Jovic. Do you remember

1 that testimony?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. What was -- and I apologise for not turning off my microphone.

4 What was your understanding of his position?

5 A. He was a deputy commander of the military police, but he was

6 correct. At the level of Teslic municipality, while we were in the camp,

7 and after I left the camp, Mr. Aleksa Jovic was very correct towards

8 Muslims and Croats who resided in the territory of Teslic municipality.

9 Q. He asked you about the beatings, who was responsible for the

10 beatings. Correct?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And correct me if I'm wrong: He also said that he would try to

13 take care of the people that were responsible for those beatings, to have

14 them removed. Is that right?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And he was successful in having some of the guards removed, and

17 Babic removed. Correct?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. There was a new commander that came in, Mr. Radic; right?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. You did not - and correct me if I'm wrong with this, but I believe

22 your statement says you did not have personal dealings with him. You knew

23 the deputy commander, Mr. Marjanovic, and I apologise for my

24 pronunciation.

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. What was the deputy commander like? Was he correct in his

2 dealings with the inmates?

3 A. He was good.

4 Q. And obviously, Mr. Aleksa Jovic didn't -- he was correct in the

5 dealings with the inmates. Correct?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Was he responsible for the release of any of the detainees, any of

8 the inmates?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Did he try to do anything with respect to securing your release

11 from Pribinic?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And what did he try to do?

14 A. He tried to release me, but the attempts failed. He made promises

15 to me, but they never came through.

16 Q. And this is from your statement, and I'm going to paraphrase it,

17 and I want to see if it's correct. Because I believe you told the

18 investigators that when it came time for your release, he told you: It

19 might not be safe for you out there, because your house has been

20 destroyed. Correct?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And did you believe he was being truthful with you and being

23 correct with you when he was talking in this manner?

24 A. Yes, I do.

25 Q. The final area that I want to talk to you about involves the

1 individual by the nickname of Pile, Mr. Radulovic. Do you remember

2 talking about him earlier this morning with the Prosecutor?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. What was your understanding of his position within the government

5 or -- within the government?

6 A. I don't know anything about that.

7 Q. He came to the camp; correct?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And I get the impression that he not only spoke to you, but he

10 spoke to the detainees as a group. Is that correct?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And what did he tell you, you and your fellow detainees, when he

13 spoke with you that day?

14 A. He told us that he would try and have us released on Monday, that

15 he would disband the camp, that the civilian authorities were established

16 in Teslic, that we were not guilty of anything, and that we would be

17 released to our homes to continue working on our farms.

18 Q. And I apologise if you've included this in your answer, but did he

19 also tell you that he was establishing civilian authority over the camp?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Did Mr. Radulovic, was he in a uniform or was he in civilian

22 clothes?

23 A. He wore civilian clothes.

24 Q. And when he talked -- and were the guards present? Could they

25 hear his speech to you and the fellow detainees?

1 A. No.

2 Q. Well, he came to the camp, he told you that the camp would be

3 closed, that you would be released within a few days. Did the guards

4 agree, when someone in civilian clothes showed up and told the inmates,

5 the detainees, that they would be released, what did the guards do?

6 A. He left. What happened outside, I don't know. We remained

7 inside, so I didn't see that.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Cunningham, if you want to confront the witness

9 with the relevant part of his statement, you're free to do so.

10 MR. CUNNINGHAM: Thank you, Your Honour. And with the usher's

11 assistance, I need to get his B/C/S statement from the Prosecutor. The

12 relevant portion that I'm referring to is on page 10 of his English

13 statement, and I unfortunately I cannot direct neither him nor the Court

14 to the appropriate portion in the B/C/S. Your Honours, for the record, I

15 believe it is the first complete paragraph on page 10 of the B/C/S

16 version, because that is the one that contains the --

17 JUDGE AGIUS: I haven't got the statement.

18 MR. CUNNINGHAM: I apologise. Just to help assist Mr. Witness.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

20 MR. CUNNINGHAM:

21 Q. Mr. Witness, what I'd like for you to do is you should have a copy

22 of your statement in B/C/S in front of you, and I believe the first

23 complete paragraph on page 10 of your statement refers to the events

24 involving Mr. Radulovic. And what I would like for you to do is to read

25 that paragraph to yourself, to use it to refresh your recollection,

1 because I want to just ask you a few follow-up questions before I'm done

2 with you. So will you let me know when you're done reading.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Witness, look at me, please. You only are supposed

4 to read the first paragraph, the one which -- in which you speak or you

5 talk about Predrag Radulovic, just that paragraph. Have you read it?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. So, Mr. Cunningham now is going to explain

8 why what we have in this paragraph does not exactly tally with what you

9 had just testified a few minutes ago.

10 Mr. Cunningham.

11 MR. CUNNINGHAM: Thank you, Your Honours.

12 Q. The first question that I want to ask you is this, Mr. Witness:

13 You told us today that Mr. Radulovic did not say to you and your fellow

14 inmates that he was establishing civilian authority over the camp. That

15 was your testimony. Yet when I look at your statement that you gave, you

16 said that Mr. Radulovic said he was establishing civilian authority.

17 Which one is it? Do you remember him saying it or not?

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Switch off --

19 MR. CUNNINGHAM: I apologise.

20 A. I said that he had established the civilian authorities in

21 Teslic. He came in and told us that.

22 Q. Let me talk to you about my last area, because before you read

23 your statement, I asked you about the guards' reactions to his statement

24 that there was civilian authority and the band was being disbanded, and I

25 believe my recollection is you said that the guards had no reaction.

1 Having read your statement, in the statement you say that the guards

2 reacted strongly to the statement by shooting in the air and spitting at

3 Radulovic. Do you remember now what happened with respect to the guards?

4 A. I forgot to say this earlier. Perhaps I may have made a mistake

5 while I was giving the statement.

6 MR. CUNNINGHAM: May I proceed, Judge.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, but I want to know where the mistake is,

8 whether it's in the written statement or whether it's in his statement

9 today.

10 MR. CUNNINGHAM: I think His Honour asked the question better than

11 I ever could:

12 Q. Is the mistake in your testimony today or is the mistake in the

13 written statement that you gave?

14 A. Earlier. Earlier. The statement, the written statement I gave.

15 Q. And I don't know if it's clear to the Court, but it's not clear to

16 me. Did the guards -- do you remember the guards spitting at him and

17 shooting their guns in the air after he talked to the detainees?

18 A. No.

19 MR. CUNNINGHAM: May I have just a moment to confer with

20 Mr. Ackerman, Your Honour?

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.

22 [Defence counsel confer]

23 MR. CUNNINGHAM:

24 Q. Sir, I have no further questions. Please have a safe trip home.

25 I'll pass this witness.

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Is there re-examination,

2 Madam Richterova.

3 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the Presiding Judge.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Sorry. Is there re-examination, Madam Richterova?

5 MS. RICHTEROVA: I have only one question to the witness.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Go ahead.

7 Re-examined by Ms. Richterova:

8 Q. Sir, you stated that this Aleksa Jovic treated you fairly, but you

9 also said that after Babic was replaced, the guards mistreated you the

10 same way as before. Is it correct?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Did you ever complain to Aleksa Jovic that the maltreatment or

13 mistreatment continues?

14 A. We complained, but to no avail. Later on, Aleksa didn't come as

15 frequently. He came rarely. So perhaps he was being prevented as well.

16 MS. RICHTEROVA: Thank you. I do not have more questions.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: We have some questions for you, sir.

18 Questioned by the Court:

19 JUDGE JANU: Mr. Witness, we could see that house you were

20 detained in in Pribinic. I would like to see if you could see through the

21 windows or were you kept in dark?

22 A. No, we couldn't see through the windows, because there were bars

23 on the windows. We were in the other room and the door was closed and

24 locked. We couldn't see anything unless when we were going for lunch.

25 JUDGE JANU: How long it was you were outside for lunch? What

1 time did you spend outside?

2 A. All that would happen in a building. We would eat in the room in

3 front of the entrance, for the duration of the lunch, 15 to 20 minutes,

4 not more than that.

5 JUDGE JANU: So to be clear, did you spend any time a day, per

6 day, outside that building?

7 A. No. Only in the morning, going to the toilet, and in the evening,

8 before going to sleep, then we would also go and visit the toilet.

9 JUDGE JANU: And the rest you spent in complete dark; is that

10 right?

11 A. Yes.

12 JUDGE JANU: And my second question is: You were describing here

13 for us that you -- at one time you didn't feel well and you were taken to

14 the doctor and you received medical cure, and you also said that there was

15 another man with injury, and he went with you and his wounds were dressed

16 freshly. And you also told us that there was this young man. You

17 described him as a student of medicine or a medic, Mustafa Dzafic, and

18 that he, after maltreatment, he asked for the medical cure and he didn't

19 receive any. My question is: Can you explain why those differences

20 between you and that injured man and this young man, and others, were

21 made, that you were able to receive the medical care and these people in

22 very serious condition were not? Can you explain it?

23 A. I got pneumonia ten days after I arrived at the camp, and that is

24 when I was given medical treatment. Now, whether it was after that that

25 they were ordered not to give medical aid to anyone else, I don't know.

1 Perhaps if it was a different period, later on maybe I would not have been

2 given any medical help. I don't know.

3 JUDGE JANU: So it wasn't dependent on the people who were -- on

4 the guards who were on duty. There were not better guards and worse ones?

5 A. No. No. This was not dependent on guards.

6 JUDGE TAYA: Mr. Witness, I have several questions. You testified

7 that concerning to military training which began October 1991, 1991, for

8 Serbs. Milovan Simic and Marinko Jotanovic were in charge of this

9 military training. Is that right?

10 A. Yes.

11 JUDGE TAYA: You said in your statement that, concerning this

12 military training, they were obviously taking orders from higher military

13 officers to conduct this training for Serbs. Is that right?

14 A. Yes.

15 JUDGE TAYA: What is the reason behind of this opinion?

16 A. Because two people couldn't organise training of people without

17 orders from the higher command.

18 JUDGE TAYA: What do you mean exactly "without orders from the

19 higher command"?

20 A. What I mean is that they received orders from the higher command

21 to do this.

22 JUDGE TAYA: That means that the orders from high-rank military

23 officer?

24 A. Yes.

25 JUDGE TAYA: As for participants, almost all Serbs of military age

1 participated, or only certain part of them participated?

2 A. These were able-bodied men who were to be trained, to be involved

3 in this training, military training.

4 JUDGE TAYA: Yes, but my question is: Almost all Serbs of

5 military age participated, or only certain part of them participated?

6 A. Well, that's one part of that area where the training was carried

7 out.

8 [Trial Chamber confers]

9 JUDGE AGIUS: I'll try and rephrase the question myself, and you

10 try to answer it, and answer just the question. You told us earlier on

11 how, at this military training centre, a number of Serbs took part, and

12 there was only one Bosniak. The Serbs that were undergoing training,

13 where did they come from?

14 A. That was the area that was covered by them.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. And we are obviously talking of Serbs who were

16 of a certain age and could be engaged in such activities. Would you say

17 that all the Serbs within this age bracket from your area were undergoing

18 training, or only a part of the Serb population within this age bracket

19 were undergoing training?

20 A. Yes.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: What? A part or practically the entire Serb

22 population?

23 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Mr. President.

24 A. I said those who were able-bodied from that area.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: So you mean all of them or some of them?

1 A. Yes.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: That means yes. All of them, the great majority of

3 them, or only a small part of them?

4 A. I don't understand the question. What should I answer now?

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Well, all right. We're talking of Serb able-bodied

6 persons. Were there any left in your area of these Serb able-bodied

7 persons that were not undergoing training in this camp, or were they all

8 there?

9 A. Well, those from my village, the Muslims from my village, didn't

10 go to that training. But from my village, all able-bodied men went. I'm

11 sorry. I'm a bit confused.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Go ahead. I think we've more or less --

13 JUDGE TAYA: My last question is: According to your knowledge,

14 Muslims also began military training, or Bosniaks, in later stage, or not?

15 A. No. I only said that only one Bosniak went to the training, to

16 the military training.

17 JUDGE TAYA: But I mean the military training organised by

18 Bosniaks. According to your knowledge, Muslims also began military

19 training, or Bosniaks, in later stage or not?

20 A. In the area of Teslic, Muslims didn't organise any kind of

21 military training, as far as I was aware.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. I have a very few questions to put to

23 you. The first one, I need a clarification from you. Do you recall

24 earlier on you were asked whether you remember hearing announcements on

25 the radio calling for the surrender of weapons? And you stated, answering

1 a specific question, that you did hear such announcements and that they

2 were directed to everyone. Now, in your statement to the Prosecution, you

3 stated: "On the 29th of May, 1992, I began hearing announcements on the

4 radio from Teslic for Muslims and Croats to hand over their weapons over

5 to the Territorial Defence headquarters. The announcer said that by order

6 of Nikola Perisic, all weapons in the possession of Muslims and Croats

7 were to be handed over immediately and by no later than the 4th of June,

8 1992, and this announcement was repeated several times over the next few

9 days on the radio."

10 You will immediately realise that there is a contradiction here

11 between what you stated to the Prosecution in your statement and what you

12 testified today. Were the announcements directed to all, the entire

13 population, or only to the Muslim and Croat component of the population?

14 Which one of the two versions is the correct one?

15 A. It is true that the announcement was addressed to all the citizens

16 of the municipality of Teslic, since it's the Serbs who responded and

17 brought their own personal weapons, sports weapons, hunting rifles. The

18 very same day they were returned, these weapons, while the Muslims and

19 Croats didn't have those weapons returned. These weapons were kept.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Now, my other questions --

21 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Mr. President, please.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: You mentioned several persons in your testimony, and

23 also in your statement. Dragan Panic, do you know if he's still alive,

24 Dragan Panic?

25 A. Yes.

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you know where he lives, where he's living now?

2 A. He lives in Gornja Radnja.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Dragan Babic, do you know if Dragan Babic, the

4 warden of the camp where you were ill-treated, maltreated, do you know if

5 Dragan Babic is still alive?

6 A. Yes.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Where does he live?

8 A. He lives in Buletic.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Miro Pejic, do you know if Miro Pejic is still

10 alive?

11 A. He's alive, but I don't know where he is now.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Zoran Markovic, do you know if Zoran

13 Markovic is still alive?

14 A. Yes.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Where does he live?

16 A. Gornji Hrankovic.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: And finally the person you referred to as Milivoje,

18 Milivoje and whose last name you don't know, who came from the village of

19 Liplje in the Teslic municipality, do you know if he's still alive?

20 A. Yes.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you know where he lives?

22 A. Djulic [phoen]. He had a house built there.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: And finally, Drazenko Kupresak, from the village of

24 Ruzevic, do you know if this person is still alive?

25 A. Yes.

1 JUDGE AGIUS: And where does he live?

2 MS. RICHTEROVA: Please turn off --

3 A. He was in Ruzevici, but I don't know now. I have no information

4 regarding him, whether he's working there or where he is. I don't know.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: My last question to you: How long is it since you

6 have engaged yourself in some kind of work, gainfully occupied --

7 gainfully occupied yourself?

8 A. Last time I worked the 11th of May, 1992. That's when I received

9 my salary, and never again. That's the last time I worked.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: And why haven't you worked again since the 11th of

11 May, 1992?

12 A. Because it was on the 5th of October, 1992, that I went to the

13 (Redacted)

14 MS. RICHTEROVA: Can we redact this, please.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: We have to redact it.

16 Yes, go ahead. Go ahead. Please continue.

17 A. I forgot the question.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: The question is, I asked you --

19 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Mr. President, please.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: I asked you: And why haven't you worked again since

21 the 11th of May, 1992. Now, don't mention again the area where you live

22 now.

23 A. I haven't been working. I have no employment. I am not working

24 today.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: But are you capable of doing some kind of work?

1 A. No.

2 Q. Why not?

3 A. I have problems. I have two vertebrae that have been damaged in

4 the spine. I have problems with my legs. I couldn't perform any kind of

5 manual labour.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Are you in receipt of any kind of disablement

7 pension or subsidy?

8 A. No.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: That's all from the witness. Sir, that brings us to

10 the end of your testimony, which basically means that you can now return

11 to your country, to your residence. You will be assisted by the staff of

12 this Tribunal in whatever you need to make it possible for you to return

13 without any delay. On my own behalf, and on behalf of Judge Janu and

14 Judge Taya, and also on behalf of the entire Tribunal, I should like to

15 thank you for having come over to give evidence. My last words is I join

16 Mr. Cunningham and the others wishing you a safe journey back home. Thank

17 you.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I thank you too. I thank to all of

19 you for calling me here to testify.

20 [The witness withdrew]

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Is the next witness, I suppose he is here already?

22 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, he is. He's in closed session. Your

23 Honour, I do have a number of matters which I think I ought to raise now,

24 one ever which was raised by Mr. Ackerman this morning and you invited a

25 response by the Prosecution. Is Your Honour intending to take the

1 25-minute break now?

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.

3 MS. KORNER: In that case, I could certainly start the witness off

4 at 1.00 but I'd like 15 minutes at the end to cover not just --

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Certainly.

6 MS. KORNER: Not just the matter that Mr. Ackerman raised this

7 morning.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: When I say I invited the Prosecution for some kind

9 of response, obviously if you want to give a response, because you don't

10 owe the Trial Chamber a response. I can't expect it from you.

11 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, it's very much the usual response with

12 an added, as it were, twist, but if Your Honours - we could start the

13 witness at 1.00 - deal with preliminaries, and then perhaps adjourn. I

14 can deal with the set-up of the municipality.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. So we'll have a 25-minute break starting from

16 now. Just to be clear, the next witness is 7.264; correct.

17 MS. KORNER: Yes.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: And he enjoys --

19 MS. KORNER: Closed session.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Closed session, yes. So make sure that -- I don't

21 know what preparations you immediate to -- yes, I suppose so, but ...

22 Twenty-five minutes.

23 --- Recess taken at 12.29 p.m.

24 --- On resuming at 1.02 p.m.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: The understanding is, Ms. Korner, we start with the

1 witness straight away.

2 MS. KORNER: That's right, Your Honour, and I'll deal with the

3 preliminaries and then adjourn, if we may, the witness at half past 1.00.

4 So the witness will stop testifying half past 1.00 and then I can deal

5 with the matters at half past 1.00.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. And we are starting in closed session

7 straight away. And I'm telling you this because of the technical

8 difficulties that I was told of, and that's why we needed an extra five

9 minutes so that they could have everything in shipshape order.

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3 [Open session]

4 JUDGE AGIUS: We are in open session. Thank you, Mr. Ackerman.

5 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, you raised the question of the letter

6 which I understand was copied to the Trial Chamber that Mr. Ackerman sent

7 to the acting director of OLAD, and asked whether the Prosecution had any

8 comments. Your Honour, can I say this about what was said this morning:

9 The Prosecution, at all times, has supported Mr. Ackerman's request for

10 resources. I don't need to go over the reasons again. But he's argued

11 very strongly that in order for this case to be completed with the

12 expedition that Your Honours are asking for and that the Rules require,

13 that the Defence should have proper support. Your Honour, that's clearly

14 very much the case at this stage of the case, particularly in the light of

15 recent events. We've already said to Your Honour that the next six weeks

16 or so, until the conclusion of the Prosecution case - and I want to return

17 to the time factor in a moment - is a time when really major witnesses,

18 experts and the like, are anticipated to be called, and it's clearly, in

19 everybody's interest that the Court, the legal aid and Defence unit, that

20 Mr. Ackerman should get proper support.

21 Your Honour, I cannot comment on the rate of pay that was raised,

22 save to say this: It's not very different. We've made some inquiries

23 from what it would appear the equivalent pay is for somebody of that level

24 and grading within the Office of the Prosecutor. But the level -- the

25 rate of remuneration is not a matter for us. All we can say is we do

1 support --

2 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't expect you to, Ms. Korner.

3 MS. KORNER: -- the application that Mr. Ackerman has made that

4 there should be an allowance for a case manager who can deal with the

5 documents and who can obviously read both languages.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Thank you, Ms. Korner. The Trial Chamber

7 directs that this part of the transcript, that is, Madam Korner's remarks

8 on the subject-matter of the letter by Mr. Ackerman to OLAD be extracted

9 and a copy of it given to Ms. Martinez, acting director of OLAD. Thanks.

10 Yes. You may proceeded.

11 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, can I then turn to a different topic,

12 and that's the death of General Talic.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.

14 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, we've now had a better copy of the death

15 certificate. Your Honours, unless Your Honours want us to respond in

16 writing, we say here and now: We accept that this death certificate is a

17 death certificate relating to General Talic. There was a full state

18 funeral held on Saturday in Banja Luka, as we understand the matter. And

19 unless Your Honours want it in writing, that is our view, and Your Honours

20 can take the required procedures to mark the indictment.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't require it in writing. Having heard what

22 you said is enough, and we will proceed accordingly to declare the

23 criminal action extinguished causa mortis.

24 MS. KORNER: Thank you very much, Your Honour. Then, Your Honour,

25 can I turn to Mr. Ackerman's response to the Rule 92 application that we

1 made in respect of the witness from Celinac. Now, Your Honour,

2 Mr. Ackerman -- and Your Honours haven't ruled --

3 JUDGE AGIUS: No, not yet. We only got it yesterday.

4 MS. KORNER: No. The reason I'm raising it now is because, if

5 necessary, we will get him here for next Tuesday, because we understand

6 that Mr. Sebire's cross-examination is not likely to take the whole of the

7 session. So we're hoping to get this witness here.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Ms. Korner, you mentioned the name of the witness.

9 MS. KORNER: I didn't.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.

11 MS. KORNER: I just said from Celinac.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: You said Mr. --

13 MS. KORNER: No. I said -- no. Mr. Sebire I mentioned.

14 Mr. Sebire is the investigator.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Okay. Sebire. Okay. He's the -- all right.

16 No problem. For a moment I figured out that you were mentioning someone

17 who was protected.

18 MS. KORNER: No, no. Mr. Sebire is the investigator on

19 exhumations.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: It's all right.

21 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, what is said about it is this: That it

22 contains information that indirectly contradicts the statement of the

23 witness who is about to testify. That may or may not be right, but it's

24 on the statement, in any event. And in addition, the witness's statement

25 contains significant exculpatory information which could be elicited on

1 cross-examination. Well, it's there.

2 As I say, Your Honour, we're anxious - and I'm going to move on to

3 this now, the whole question of timing of what's left of this case - to

4 try and complete the case, if not by the beginning of August, and I'm

5 going to explain to Your Honour why I don't think that's possible.

6 Shortly after the recommencement at the end of August as is possible. But

7 it won't work. We're on a very tight schedule of the witnesses left. If

8 we have to call witnesses like this for cross-examination. Your Honour,

9 I'm making that point now so that Mr. Ackerman can hear it. And in our

10 view, what is said is clear on the face of the statement, and unless there

11 are other matters that Mr. Ackerman wants to adduce, we would suggest that

12 it's not suitable to bring this man up for cross-examination. And Your

13 Honour, what he does is simply add in further witnesses to the list.

14 Your Honour, timing. We have to -- we've had to, as it were, redo

15 the witness list again, because of problems with witnesses not being able

16 to attend, and there's one witness, the one who we couldn't call, I think

17 it was last Friday because of his illness, and it seems to us unlikely we

18 can get him here in any event. If everything went according to plan, with

19 no witness taking any longer than we have estimated, and with no delays,

20 we would still find it very difficult to finish the Prosecution case by

21 the 2nd of August. We've been told today that the expert witness for

22 propaganda cannot testify between the 15th of July and the 1st of August,

23 which is the last sitting day before the break. So, Your Honour, that is

24 one problem, although that's a small one. But it does seem to us that we

25 would really be pushing things, and we're cutting out as many witnesses as

1 we possibly can to try and finish by the 1st of August.

2 In addition to that, as I said to Your Honours, we will be

3 disclosing, tomorrow, the statement for the constitutional expert. The

4 documents, we hope, will follow shortly afterwards. Most of them have

5 been disclosed but some haven't. But Your Honour, it's a hefty report and

6 it's a lot of documents, and I think the same for most of the coming-up

7 witnesses, the man with the diary from Banja Luka will be testifying, we

8 hope, on the 16th of June -- 16th? Anyhow, mid-June.

9 So, Your Honour, it seems to me that it's going to be impossible

10 for, even with two counsel, but one who was just brought in, for this to

11 proceed in the way that there's no gap at all. But, Your Honour, it may

12 help if Mr. Ackerman can indicate -- I know it's difficult at this stage,

13 but how long he thinks, if there is to be a Defence case, subject to any

14 submissions of law made at the end of the Prosecution case, his case would

15 take. Because I think that may assist Your Honours. I know that Your

16 Honours -- that there is this timing problem so that the whole case has to

17 be completed by the end of August of next year, but it seems to me, and

18 I've had discussions with Mr. Ackerman about this, that the Defence case

19 would not be running to an extent that it would make it impossible for the

20 case to be completed by August. But, Your Honour, I'm raising it at this

21 stage so we all have some idea of where we are. As I say, Your Honour, we

22 were slightly taken by surprise to be told that there was this --

23 effectively this final date, if possible, and we're doing our best, but

24 it's not -- I feel, going to work.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: You've still not given us the breakdown of the

1 witnesses that you still have. I'm still waiting for it.

2 MS. KORNER: Yeah, we have, Your Honour. We put in a motion which

3 gave you the breakdown.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: When did you do that?

5 MS. KORNER: I think it was filed sometime last week. It was

6 attached to --

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Oh, I see. Yes. All right. Okay. All right.

8 Okay. And this is what you stand by.

9 MS. KORNER: No. Your Honour, this is -- well, that is the best

10 we could do, but there's been an alteration again, which is why we haven't

11 given the Defence a copy, apart from the fact that it contains matters

12 which, as Your Honour knows, we've -- are ex parte at the moment.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: This in itself is not complete, no. I mean, for

14 example, there isn't the name of the expert on propaganda, for example. I

15 don't see it here.

16 MS. KORNER: It is. It was wrong. We corrected it.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Oh, that's the correction refers to this document.

18 Oh, I see. I see. I see. That I saw yesterday and this morning,

19 actually. There are two documents.

20 MS. KORNER: But this was actually, I think, we did file this

21 motion last week sometime, on the 28th of May.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Mr. Ackerman -- have you finished,

23 Ms. Korner?

24 MS. KORNER: Yes, I have, Your Honour.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Ackerman, I suppose two matters brought by

1 Ms. Korner that call for some kind of comment from you. One is with

2 regard to the witness from Celinac. Let's start with that. Do you

3 require his presence here for cross-examination?

4 MR. ACKERMAN: Yes. That's why I set it in the motion, Your

5 Honour. I think since we returned, I have filed responses on -- I haven't

6 counted them up. 30 or 35 Rule 92 bis requests, and this is the only one

7 that I have objected to in any way, I think. Certainly the only one I've

8 asked to be brought here for cross-examination. So I don't think I'm

9 being unreasonable about it. And it's one thing to say that it's in his

10 statement, but, as you know, what's in a person's statement frequently

11 doesn't reflect his knowledge, and it certainly can be elucidated upon,

12 upon his presence here, which is what I intend to do with this witness.

13 We saw today that what's in his statement doesn't necessarily reflect what

14 the witness actually saw, heard, or remembered. And I don't know if it

15 can cause the Chamber any concern, but it caused me a great deal of

16 concern about the way statements are taken, as a matter of fact, that the

17 witness would say: I absolutely said nothing of the fact. When it's

18 something as clear as spitting and shooting.

19 In any event, I do want that witness brought.

20 Now, and of course it's up to Your Honours as to whether you grant

21 that or not.

22 The other matter which I can comment briefly on: I have looked in

23 a little more than cursory way, and made a serious effort to try to make

24 some kind of a reasonable prediction. I believe, Your Honours, that the

25 Defence case is going to last somewhere in the neighbourhood of 15 or 16

1 weeks, which means that if we started in October, we could finish sometime

2 around the end of February/first part of March, with the Defence

3 evidence. And it may be less than that, but I think that's a reasonable

4 appraisal of how long it will take. It's usual that Defence witnesses are

5 quite a bit shorter in their testimony than Prosecution witnesses because

6 of the nature of Defence testimony, basically. So I would think we could

7 finish within that period of time.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: We'll discuss this amongst us tomorrow during the

9 first break, Judge Janu, and we'll come back to you. In the meantime, I'd

10 like to know: The military evidence who has already given evidence in the

11 Stakic case, how many days did he --

12 MS. KORNER: In Stakic case, I think he testified for about three

13 to four days. I'd have to double-check that, but I think it was something

14 like that. Your Honours, I think -- we have him down -- we've given him

15 four days for this trial. Your Honour, whether he requires all of those

16 four days or not --

17 JUDGE AGIUS: This is why I'm asking. Because I see that he will

18 be staying here a weekend.

19 MS. KORNER: Yes. He works for us, Your Honour.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Oh, he works here.

21 MS. KORNER: He's the one that Mr. Ackerman has been complaining

22 about.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: But he works for you and he is situated here?

24 MS. KORNER: Yes. He works --

25 JUDGE AGIUS: I thought he was situated somewhere across the

1 Adriatic.

2 MS. KORNER: No.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.

4 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, the best estimate we can give is two and

5 a half days. I mean, in total.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. The witness -- no, because --

7 MS. KORNER: I'm sorry. It was two and a half days in Stakic.

8 Sorry.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Two and a half days in Stakic. Because what I'm

10 thinking of, Ms. Korner, and then we can talk about August as well. If we

11 make use of Friday, 27 June.

12 MS. KORNER: Yes.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: As you see, there is no court, because we were

14 planning to sit in courtroom 2, and that would have been court

15 maintenance, but it so happens that now we will be shifting to the

16 morning. We will be sitting in courtroom 3 and we can have that date

17 available. We can fill it in.

18 MS. KORNER: Yes.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: That's number 1.

20 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, that's why we've done some alterations

21 to the list, because we've moved --

22 JUDGE AGIUS: And secondly, if one can anticipate reducing

23 Mr. Brown's testimony to two days or -- I mean, he's already given

24 evidence elsewhere.

25 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, he gave evidence in respect only of

1 Prijedor.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, but Prijedor is included also in our

3 proceedings, no.

4 MS. KORNER: Yes, I know, Your Honour. But he has to give

5 evidence about what happened in --

6 JUDGE AGIUS: But anyway, let's discuss it first amongst ourselves

7 tomorrow and then we'll come back to you.

8 MS. KORNER: Can I hand to Mr. Ackerman at this stage so that he's

9 not in the dark, and to Your Honours, because it's a different list

10 slightly. It will probably undergo a change again, but if Your Honours

11 look at --

12 JUDGE AGIUS: And in the meantime --

13 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, you'll see that we've put in the witness

14 for Celinac, but we do need to know, because we have to get him over

15 here. He has to get a passport, I think.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Ms. Korner, the position is a very simple one. If

17 Mr. Ackerman requires the witness here for cross-examination, particularly

18 on what he considers and describes as exculpatory material, then obviously

19 the Trial Chamber cannot turn down that request. It has to accede to it.

20 MS. KORNER: It doesn't, but Your Honour I take the view --

21 JUDGE AGIUS: I know that there is case-law that says --

22 MS. KORNER: Correct.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: -- theoretically we can, but I come from a

24 jurisdiction where we would not even dare say that.

25 MS. KORNER: All right. Well, Your Honour -- in that case, is

1 Your Honour ruling now --

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, yes, yes. And in fact it actually can replace

3 a written ruling.

4 MS. KORNER: Yes.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: We are deciding here and now that as far as the Rule

6 92 bis witness from the -- on Celinac municipality, referred to in

7 Mr. Ackerman's latest response, a witness shall be brought over for

8 cross-examination.

9 Do you want to limit your cross-examination only on what you

10 describe as exculpatory material, Mr. Ackerman?

11 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I think what Ms. Korner suggested was

12 that we could probably deal with that on Tuesday, because the

13 cross-examination of Mr. Sebire will be quite short, I believe. So I

14 think we can complete it that day without any limitation.

15 MS. KORNER: I see he's gone into the 16th of June, but we need

16 to -- if we can get him here, if he has a passport, he'll be here on

17 Tuesday, the 9th -- 10th. So next Tuesday.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. That's it. We have to cut it short now,

19 because we have already overstepped our limit. Is it something very

20 urgent, Mr. Ackerman, or can it wait until tomorrow? All right.

21 So once more, I thank the interpreters and the technicians and

22 everyone else involved in these proceedings for your indulgence. We have

23 again overstepped by about six, seven minutes. I thank you.

24 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

25 1.52 p.m., to be reconvened on Thursday,

1 the 5th day of June, 2003, at 9.00 a.m.

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