1 Friday, 7 November 2003

2 [Open session]

3 --- Upon commencing at 2.21 p.m.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Please be seated. Wait for Mr...

5 [The accused entered court]

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Registrar, could you call the case,

7 please.

8 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. Case Number IT-99-36-T, The

9 Prosecutor versus Radoslav Brdjanin.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: This is not -- Mr. Brdjanin, can you follow in a

11 language that you can understand? This is --

12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Good afternoon. Yes, I can,

13 Your Honour.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Please be seated and good afternoon to

15 you. Can you ask the technician because we don't have the LiveNote on the

16 laptop, none of us. It's still on yesterday's. Perhaps if I connect --

17 no, it's still yesterday's. It's showing 6/11, which is yesterday. And

18 the transcript is going on what is supposed to be yesterday.

19 Sorry, Ms. Korner, appearances for the Prosecution.

20 MS. KORNER: The usual.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay, thank you. Mr. Ackerman.

22 MS. KORNER: Joanna Korner, Ann Sutherland, assisted by

23 Denise Gustin, case manager.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. I thought you were trying to economise

25 on time. Mr. Ackerman, appearances for Radoslav Brdjanin

1 MR. ACKERMAN: If you want to adopt a new regimen, Your Honour, it

2 is the same as it has been for days. John Ackerman, David Cunningham, and

3 Mr. Vujic.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Any preliminaries?

5 MS. KORNER: Just one, Your Honour. And it's this: Your Honour,

6 today we took a decision in respect of the disclosure to the Defence of

7 the full transcripts of these summons interviews. Your Honour, having

8 invited us to agree. In fact, we've taken on behalf of the Prosecution a

9 unilateral decision that we will disclose the full transcript when we are

10 notified by the Defence that the witness is actually intending to give

11 evidence. Can I make it absolutely clear, this is not because we concede

12 that the Defence has any right under the rules to full disclosure. But

13 simply because the reality of the situation in this particular case is

14 that where interviews were conducted with people as witnesses, they didn't

15 get a copy of the interview. Where they were conducted as suspects, they

16 did. And therefore, as a matter of practical reality --

17 JUDGE AGIUS: All right, yes.

18 MS. KORNER: -- It seems we should not withhold it.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: I think that's a very practical approach, which I

20 suppose Mr. Ackerman will accept without -- it being submitted, offered,

21 and accepted on without prejudice on both sides. Okay?

22 Mine, I think, yes, now it's okay. Madam Chuqing has got expert

23 hands.

24 Yes, Ms. Korner, let's bring the witness in and you may proceed.

25 [The witness entered court]

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, good afternoon, to you, Mr. Radic. We are

2 going to proceed with the cross-examination, and then re-examination, and

3 hopefully finish. Much depends on you. When I see that you are beating

4 around the bush, I am going to call your attention. If you don't heed my

5 word, I will let you continue, but the price you will pay for that is that

6 you won't be out of here before Monday or Tuesday or Wednesday of next

7 week. So it's up to you. Answer the questions as yes, no, or as

8 required, without going around the bush, and without requiring for this

9 and for that if you know that you are in a position to give the answer.

10 Ms. Korner, please. We will try to finish with the witness today.

11 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, yes.

12 WITNESS: PREDRAG RADIC [Resumed]

13 [Witness answered through interpreter]

14 Cross-examined by Ms. Korner: [Continued].

15 Q. Mr. Radic, I want to move to the regional crisis staff which was

16 established formally on the 5th of May 1992. You accept you were a member

17 of that crisis staff?

18 A. Correct.

19 Q. The number of meetings you attended, you think, was not high. But

20 without seeing the minutes, you are unable to say exactly how many.

21 A. Correct again.

22 Q. You did, however, attend the first meeting?

23 A. Yes, I did.

24 Q. And I think you told us that if you couldn't attend, you would

25 send your secretary?

1 A. Correct.

2 Q. I want to ask you to please just confirm what you told us about

3 the crisis staff -- the regional crisis staff in interview. It's page 8

4 of the first interview which is up on the screen. In the B/C/S version,

5 it's page 9. And it will be handed to you. It has been highlighted.

6 You were shown the document that established the crisis staff, and

7 you said: "It was confirmed at the assembly" - this is line 22 of the

8 English - "actually, he was the president. It was confirmed at the

9 assembly, and the executive committee of the ARK. It was signed by

10 Mr. Erceg."

11 It was put to you: "Once the crisis staff came into existence on

12 the 5th of May 1992, it was the highest authority as far as a governing

13 body in the Autonomous Region of Krajina. Correct?" You said: "Yes,

14 because the assembly of the autonomous region was then disbanded so that

15 the only thing that remained were the assemblies of towns."

16 Then you were asked how the crisis staff functioned in relation to

17 these assemblies. If we go to page 9, it was put to you by the

18 questioner: "I want to stay focussed in the crisis staff of the

19 autonomous region, was the highest body of government authority at the

20 time once the assembly was disbanded. Is that correct?" Answer: "Yes."

21 Question: "And the ARK crisis staff had direct control over the

22 municipalities within the ARK. Is that correct?" And you said:

23 "Depending. It depended on the individual. It depended on the people in

24 the municipalities. It varied because there are documents from which you

25 can tell when exactly we -- because the municipal assembly still existed

1 when Banja Luka resisted certain questions." I'm sorry, "decisions." I

2 can't read my own...

3 And then there were some further questions, and you were asked

4 about the decisions. It was put to you: "The regional crisis staff

5 issued decisions which were then transmitted to the municipal crisis

6 staffs." You disagreed. You were asked: "In that case, what was the

7 purpose of the issuing of decisions if they weren't going to the

8 municipal?"

9 And you then explained, and I'm summarising your answer, that they

10 only existed, you thought, then between the beginning of April until the

11 corridor was opened, and then they were disbanded. And you were asked

12 again to see the crisis staffs.

13 Do you accept that those are the answers that you gave?

14 A. Yes, this is exactly what I said at the time.

15 Q. All right. Now, I want to put it to you that one day on which you

16 definitely attended was the 18th of May 1992. And I'll show you the --

17 I'd like you to have now P227. And I'll give you the B/C/S copy that has

18 actually been marked for the meeting of the 18th of May.

19 MS. KORNER: Don't worry, Madam Registrar. I'll hand over my

20 copy. There it is. I've marked it with a...

21 It's number 12 at the bottom of the page that you are now going to

22 get.

23 Your Honour, I make it clear the suggestion I'm putting is based

24 on part of Exhibit 759.

25 Q. Now, on the 18th of May, a number of matters were discussed

1 including an assertion, if you like, in number 2 of the conclusions:

2 "The crisis staffs are now the highest organs of the authority -- of

3 authority in the municipalities." Presumably, Mr. Radic, you agreed with

4 that?

5 A. That's what it says here.

6 Q. No, I know that's what it says. But as far as you were concerned,

7 the crisis staff in Banja Luka was at this stage at the highest level of

8 authority until such time as the assembly verified the decisions?

9 A. Correct. The assembly stopped functioning, and the crisis staff

10 was supposed to make decisions which fall within the purview of the

11 municipal assembly's duties.

12 Q. Could you look, please, at item number 15, this is over the page,

13 or conclusion number 15, where a meeting is to be held in Mrkonjic Grad

14 with a delegation from Jajce and the delegation of the autonomous region

15 consisting of Mr. Kupresanin, Mr. Erceg, yourself, Mr. Brdjanin, Mr.

16 Sajic, and Mr. Zupljanin. Do you remember that?

17 A. I don't remember having attended this meeting, Madam Prosecutor.

18 Q. All right. Well, I'm suggesting to you that you were. But I'm

19 now asking you whether or not you recall holding a meeting in

20 Mrkonjic Grad with people from Jajce?

21 A. I was at a meeting with people from Jajce, but this was not in

22 Mrkonjic Grad, but in Banja Luka. And it was at their request. As for my

23 meeting them in Mrkonjic Grad, I can't remember that I met them there. I

24 don't think so.

25 Q. All right. And the final one on this -- the final one on this

1 particular meeting, number 18, Karadzic, Koljevic, Krajisnik, Subotic, and

2 Mladic to have talks with representatives of the Autonomous Region of

3 Krajina on Monday, the 25th of May. Do you remember these people coming

4 down at around that period?

5 A. No, Madam Prosecutor, I don't remember.

6 Q. All right. Thank you. You can give that back because that's all

7 I want to ask you about the decisions.

8 I just want to deal with a few more things that you said during

9 the course of the interview about the regional crisis staff. Page 35 in

10 English of the first interview. In the B/C/S version, page 36. And it

11 should be highlighted.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Ackerman.

13 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I'm wondering if I might be excused

14 for five or ten minutes.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Certainly. Do you require the sitting to stop?

16 MR. ACKERMAN: I'm not just feeling real well, and I think I can

17 be excused for five or ten minutes.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: No, no, what I meant was whether you want us to stop

19 for these five, ten minutes.

20 MR. ACKERMAN: I think not. I think you might --

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay, yes.

22 Yes, Ms. Korner.

23 MS. KORNER:

24 Q. You will see, I think it's highlighted for you, it's line 22 in

25 the English of page 35, you mentioned that the ARK president had visited

1 many of the municipalities in the region. It's also true that the local

2 municipality presidents were also summoned to Banja Luka. Is that

3 correct?

4 And I think you just made a noise. And it was put to you: "And

5 in fact, met with the ARK Crisis Staff on a regular basis. And you

6 replied, they were also members of the crisis staff. Question: "I'm

7 talking about the local municipality crisis staff presidents. They

8 regularly reported to Banja Luka and gave situation reports on events

9 occurring in their area of responsibility. Is that correct?" And you

10 said: "Yes."

11 Do you agree that you said that in interview?

12 A. Yes. There were meetings at which presidents of municipalities

13 submitted briefings on what was going on in various areas. That is a

14 fact.

15 Q. All right. Can I just ask you this: Were there, in fact, two

16 sets of meetings held by the regional crisis staff; the first where the

17 actual core members met, and the second where the presidents of the

18 municipalities came, much bigger meetings?

19 A. I only remember a few meetings with the presidents of the

20 municipalities. Now, whether those were joint meetings or separate

21 meetings, I can't tell you. There were meetings together with

22 representatives of the municipalities who were talking about what was

23 going on on the edges of the territory.

24 Q. All right. And finally, then, at page 53, on the same topic

25 effectively, and in the B/C/S, it's page 54, only seems to be one page

1 ahead.

2 Question: You were being asked about -- the same topic, the

3 meetings attended by presidents of the municipality. It was put to you:

4 "You've told us that when there were problems in municipalities, the

5 leaders of the municipality would attend a meeting of the regional crisis

6 staff." And you replied: "Sometimes." Then there was a break and the

7 tape was changed.

8 You were asked: "Was there a discussion of the problem?"?

9 "On the problem of the municipality, yes."

10 "When a decision was made, that decision was then made, was it

11 not, by Mr. Brdjanin?"

12 And you said: "Most often, yes."

13 Again, did you say that?

14 A. I'm not reading this. What I have in front of me it something

15 completely different. It is page 53 --

16 Q. Page 54.

17 A. Are you saying --

18 Q. Page 54. I'm sorry. I thought I said it. Page 54 and 55. It's

19 the bottom of 54, I think, and into page 55.

20 A. Yes, the question was whether they came when they had problems.

21 Yes, they did. They discussed their problems. They sought decisions.

22 And decisions were taken at such meetings. And when the decisions were

23 made, they were made by Mr. Brdjanin. It was not Mr. Brdjanin alone who

24 could make a decision of that nature.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, but try to answer the question. Don't go

1 beyond the question. The question was whether you stated this. And your

2 answer should have been yes or no. And then if you wanted to explain your

3 something, you put your hand and ask for my permission.

4 MS. KORNER: Right.

5 Q. The next question I was going to ask you "is that correct?" And

6 you say now it couldn't be made by Mr. Brdjanin alone. What do you mean

7 by that?

8 A. I said most often, the rest of it was -- I didn't understand. But

9 what I'm saying is I think that it was not up to him to make these

10 decisions on helping them on his own.

11 Q. But that's what I'm asking you. What do you mean by that? You

12 added that now, so I'm asking you what you mean.

13 A. He couldn't make those decisions on his own. If there is a

14 meeting, then a number of people participate in making such decisions.

15 Q. Yes. Mr. Radic, I'm sure you're absolutely right. There was

16 discussion in these meetings involving a number of people. But when a

17 decision had to be made, whether supplies should be given to a particular

18 municipality or some kind of aid, was that made by Mr. Brdjanin?

19 A. Together with others, yes.

20 Q. All right.

21 A. He had the last say, if I can put it that way.

22 Q. All right. Thank you very much. That's all I want to ask you

23 about that.

24 Now, I want to move to this question of the police. And as you

25 told this Court and as you said in interview, you firmly assert that no

1 one in civilian authorities could give orders to the police. That's what

2 you say, isn't it?

3 A. I, as the president, no, but there was a ministry within the

4 civilian bodies. If you don't consider the ministry to be a civilian

5 body, then no. But the ministry could issue such instructions. But not

6 municipal representatives.

7 Q. All right. Well, would you accept that whether it was direct

8 orders or by way of influence, the views and wishes of the, first of all,

9 regional crisis staff were respected by the police?

10 MR. CUNNINGHAM: Judge, I'm going to object to the form of that

11 question because it calls for orders or by way of influence. There's a

12 difference between the two, and I would object in Mr. Ackerman's absence.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: But she -- Ms. Korner did not say "and." She said

14 "or." So the witness is in a position or free to address himself to

15 either of those two and give an answer. It wasn't put to him in a

16 combined manner. It's in the alternative.

17 MS. KORNER:

18 Q. So Mr. Radic, what's your answer to that?

19 A. Well, the president of the crisis staff could attempt to exert an

20 influence. But the Ministry of the Interior in Pale had the final

21 decision. But an attempt could be made.

22 Q. More than an attempt, couldn't it? Successful, and I'll use the

23 word orders, which were carried out by the police were given, weren't

24 they?

25 A. They could receive a decision from the crisis staff. But then it

1 was up to them to decide how to operate with the agreement of the

2 Ministry of the Interior. But they could receive a decision from the

3 crisis staff. In any case, this happened on one occasion, and it is

4 recorded in a document.

5 Q. Well, I'll come on to some documents in a moment. But wasn't it

6 actually the case, whether because the Ministry of the Interior told the

7 police to do this, that the police did carry out instructions given to

8 them by -- and now let me deal -- by the municipal authorities?

9 A. Not the municipal authorities, no. They weren't implemented.

10 They weren't duty-bound to implement them.

11 Q. What about the regional? Would the police carry out, as far as

12 you were concerned, instructions given to them by the regional

13 authorities? That is, either the assembly or the crisis staff?

14 A. Yes. But in a modified form, and this is recorded in a document

15 when Mr. Zupljanin said "not without my knowledge." You're not going to

16 modify without me being aware of it. I have to be aware of who is going

17 to be replaced. And it is for me to say who is going to be replaced, if

18 you can remember that. So they modified the order.

19 Q. Can you tell us to what document you're referring?

20 A. You showed it to me yesterday or the day before yesterday. I

21 can't remember any more. But first of all, it said what the crisis staff

22 had decided, and then it said what Zupljanin told the police to do. There

23 must have been consultations with the Ministry of the Interior.

24 Q. All right. I'm going to show you then -- in fact, I'm going to go

25 back to that document. Can you look, however, first at P202, and to save

1 any wasting time here.

2 MS. KORNER: Usher, needn't bother. The B/C/S, I've highlighted

3 the B/C/S.

4 Do Your Honours have it, or do you want it up on the ELMO?

5 JUDGE AGIUS: I think we better have it on the ELMO. It will save

6 time.

7 MS. KORNER: Usher, you'll need to put the English on the ELMO.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: We're full of exhibits here, have them at the right,

9 the left.

10 MS. KORNER: If you could put the first page on the ELMO, first.

11 In fact, I forgot to give that to Mr.... It's the right one.

12 Could you give that to Mr. Radic, please, usher. Usher. Sorry.

13 I only gave the back part.

14 Q. Mr. Radic, that's the front of this document dated the 20th of

15 May 1992. It's the conclusions of a meeting held on the 6th of May 1992.

16 Attending that meeting apart from Mr. Zupljanin were the chiefs, as you

17 can see in the first paragraph, of Banja Luka, Gradiska, Dubica, so on and

18 so forth.

19 And then if we go to the page that I highlighted for you - usher,

20 that's page 4 in the English version - this is Mr. Zupljanin issuing

21 instructions. Paragraph 23: "In all our activities, we are obliged to

22 observe all measures and apply all procedures ordered by the crisis staff

23 of the autonomous region.

24 With regard to disarmament, when the deadline of weapons surrender

25 expires on 11th May 1992, we should take no action until the crisis staff

1 makes the relevant decisions."

2 Were you aware that those instructions had been given by Mr.

3 Zupljanin to the chiefs of all, as far as we can tell, all the SJBs within

4 his area of influence?

5 A. No, Madam, because he didn't forward such things to the presidents

6 of municipalities, but the representatives of municipalities, but only to

7 SJBs that were under his jurisdiction. But there is still a question as

8 to when he received the order from the crisis staff and whether he

9 consulted the Ministry of the Interior. I can't see that this text

10 mentioned it. It should be analysed, examined to see whether he asked for

11 the agreement of the Ministry of the Interior. I don't think that he was

12 able to do so on an independent basis without the Ministry of the Interior

13 being aware of this. This is my opinion. I can't claim this for sure.

14 Q. You may well be right, Mr. Radic. All that I am putting to you is

15 that your assertion and that of many other witnesses, I have to tell you,

16 that the civilian authorities had no ability to order or instruct the

17 police is simply not right.

18 A. I'd like to make a distinction between civilian authorities.

19 You're referring to municipal authorities, and in that case I'm claiming

20 they weren't in a position to do this. But If you're referring to the

21 Ministry of the Interior, if that's what you mean by civilian authorities,

22 then absolutely, they were in a position to act in this way.

23 Q. No, I don't mean the Ministry of the Interior. I'm showing you a

24 document where Mr. Zupljanin says that they are obliged to observe all

25 measures and apply all procedures ordered by the crisis staff of the

1 region. And I'm putting it to you, Mr. Radic, that you knew full well

2 that that is -- even if you didn't see this document, that the police were

3 applying the instructions of the regional crisis staff.

4 A. If you have a document which demonstrates that I really knew about

5 this, that they could have implemented these decisions and that they did

6 implement them, I'd like you to show it to me. But I'm telling you that I

7 wasn't aware of them being obliged to carry out decisions of the crisis

8 staff without having consulted the Ministry of the Interior. This is my

9 experience.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: The question is that what you see over there proves

11 you wrong, that you had the wrong idea, or wrong opinion.

12 MS. KORNER: No, I'm suggesting, Your Honour -- I want to be

13 absolutely clear. I'm suggesting that the opinion expressed by Mr. Radic

14 is not at all a true opinion.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: That's what you are suggesting.

16 MS. KORNER: I'm suggesting that he knew full well, but doesn't

17 want to say so.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, let's move ahead, Ms. Korner.

19 MS. KORNER:

20 Q. I will show you another document, not all of the ones we have,

21 Mr. Radic, to show you exactly what we mean. P271, and together with

22 P272. 271 first.

23 This is a dispatch from the CSB, Mr. Zupljanin, sent to, again,

24 all SJBs dealing with the order by the regional crisis staff to disarm

25 paramilitaries. Paragraph number 1: "Weapons and ammunition returned

1 voluntarily in response to the order issued by the crisis staff of the

2 autonomous region should be classified according to type."

3 Do you see that?

4 A. I have the text in front of me, yes. I understand it.

5 Q. Can you look now, please, at P272, this is another order being

6 sent to the SJBs dated the 6th of July 1992. And there, you will see that

7 the crisis staff -- the SJBs are being sent the decision about dismissals

8 of the 22nd of June.

9 Now, Mr. Radic, one more time, after seeing these documents which

10 I assure you are a sample, it is the case, isn't it, that the police

11 followed the instructions issued by the regional crisis staff?

12 A. The conclusion from this can be drawn that Radoslav Brdjanin

13 forwarded such an order to the chief of the CSB, the Security Services

14 Centre, for it to be implemented. I don't know what else I should say.

15 This is clearly demonstrated by the document.

16 Q. Yes. And he forwarded it to the SJBs for implementation. That's

17 what this document shows, doesn't it?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And can we deal now with Prijedor. If you have back the exhibit

20 you were shown. Actually I think it was 1195, although Mr. Ackerman gave

21 it a Defence number, but it doesn't matter. It's the same exhibit.

22 This is a meeting in fact of the SDS municipal board, not

23 particularly the police, but we're going to deal with the document on the

24 police in a moment. Do you see Mr. Kovacevic, what he had to say? Sorry,

25 I didn't mark this, but it should be -- Mr. Kuruzovic spoke first, and

1 then Mr. Kovacevic explaining: "The cabinet meets daily and has adopted

2 at least 50 decisions. And then replacement of staff had been carried

3 out." And you were asked about that because it's before the June

4 instruction. "The functioning of government at the level of Krajina can

5 now be felt. Instructions and decisions are being forwarded from the

6 top."

7 Now, you assert that nobody had any control over Prijedor. Is

8 that what you're asserting?

9 A. The police and the CSB could have had partial control up until a

10 certain period of time. The CSB, the Security Services Centre to which

11 Prijedor belonged could have had control over the police part. But this

12 is the municipal board of the SDS. They would hold sessions, and they

13 would adopt decisions.

14 Q. You see, the truth is although - and I accept entirely - Prijedor

15 didn't like the authority of the regional crisis staff, they did carry out

16 their instructions, didn't they?

17 A. I don't know which instructions you are referring to. But what

18 they did was not in accordance with any of the instructions that were

19 being adopted and of which I was aware. But in Prijedor, I'd say that

20 they would take autonomous decisions of the SDS and of the police, and the

21 regional staff had very little influence over them. Almost none at all.

22 Q. All right. One final document on this topic: P1294, please.

23 This is a document of the 13th of July addressed to the Autonomous

24 Region of Krajina, I think. And it's a report on the implementations of

25 the conclusions of the Prijedor municipal crisis staff. There are a number

1 of conclusions. Can you turn to the very end of paragraph 1, which is on

2 the second page in the English.

3 MR. ACKERMAN: I'm sorry.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Ackerman.

5 MR. ACKERMAN: I don't know where it comes from but it's addressed

6 to the Autonomous Region of Krajina. I can't find that.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Can we see the first page again, please.

8 MR. ACKERMAN: I don't believe it is.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm also claiming that that is not

10 the case.

11 MS. KORNER: What a surprise.

12 I don't really mind, Your Honour, whether it's addressed to them

13 or not because the report in itself will do.

14 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, Ms. Korner ought not to make representations

15 in the record as to what a document stands for when it doesn't. She says

16 it was addressed to the Autonomous Region of Krajina, and I don't think it

17 is.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Yes, yes, yes. But we have two conflicting

19 statements, or not exactly conflicting.

20 Go ahead, Ms. Korner.

21 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I agree. I don't think it matters.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Exactly.

23 MS. KORNER: I'm not proposing to argue on this one.

24 Q. The end of paragraph 1: "The decision of the Crisis Staff of the

25 Autonomous Region of Banja Luka - and it gives the number, dated the 22nd

1 of June, that's the infamous decision on dismissing people - on filling

2 vacant management and other posts valid for the running of the economy was

3 implemented in the public security stations."

4 Can you go to the end of paragraph 2, which is on our page 3 in

5 the English: "The calculation and payment of salaries for the month of

6 May" --

7 MS. KORNER: I'm sorry, Your Honour. I think there seems to be a

8 problem.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't find it.

10 MS. KORNER:

11 Q. We'll give you the full decision. I don't know why you haven't.

12 MS. KORNER: Do you mean the exhibit is missing? That's good.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Do we have it or don't we have it?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If it's not this here, can I read it

15 out?

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Go ahead.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "Conclusions and the public

18 community is responsible for implementing it. It gives a number. They're

19 requesting from the public utilities institute to provide the rules on

20 systematisation and information for paying salaries, et cetera --

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Stop.

22 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, we were unaware that the Court doesn't

23 appear to have the full exhibit. If you go to the end, go to the second,

24 I imagine it's the second or third page, of paragraph 2 of this document.

25 MR. ACKERMAN: It's at the bottom of page 3 in the B/C/S.

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Ackerman.

2 MR. ACKERMAN: The page with 7106 at the top.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Ackerman.

4 MS. KORNER:

5 Q. You will see: "The calculation and payment of salaries for the

6 month of May done in consultation with the director of the Prijedor SDK

7 and on the basis of the decision of the Crisis Staff of the Autonomous

8 Region of Krajina."

9 Right, can we go, please, to number 7. Paragraph 7, please. "On

10 the basis of the conclusion" - number given - "dated 10th of June 1992 and

11 with regard to the conclusion of the Autonomous Region of Krajina Banja

12 Luka, all socially owned enterprises must start working in accordance with

13 wartime plans."

14 Mr. Radic, you were shown in interview -- you can give that

15 document back now to the usher -- and can we go to the second interview,

16 please, page 16. That same exhibit. And in the B/C/S of the second

17 interview, it's page 15. You were shown that document during that

18 interview. It was read out to you, and the questioner said to you: "Now,

19 Mr. Radic, that, in respect of the municipality of Prijedor" - this was on

20 the 22nd of June decision - "again is a euphemism for dismissing non-Serbs

21 in this case from positions in the public security station, isn't it?"

22 You said: "This is a systemisation of positions in the public

23 security service in the police."

24 And then you said: "I don't remember because I neither sent nor

25 implemented it."

1 And it was put to you: "No, I realise you had nothing to do with

2 it. But again, from your knowledge of events, this was essentially

3 Prijedor getting rid of or confirming that non-Serbs had been removed from

4 the police force. Correct?"

5 And you said: "If this is what Mr. Cayley is talking about, and

6 from this it will be very difficult for the Prosecutor to prove that this

7 is about non-Serbs. And that's why I'm calling it a euphemism. And the

8 balancing of staff, it says systemisation here, but it never says who is

9 in question. And even the person who replied to it never said it was

10 non-Serb population that was dismissed."

11 "It was," and whatever you said then was unintelligible, "but let

12 me tell you, the fact is it was them who were dismissed."

13 Now, can you go to page 19 -- or can we go to page 19, and for you

14 in the B/C/S page 18 -- page 17, I'm sorry.

15 A. May I say something.

16 Q. Yes.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, yes, Mr. --

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What you have read out, I didn't

19 have that in front of me. I had page 15 in front of me, and it contains

20 something quite different. Everything you just read out is not something

21 I had before me. So could that please be placed in front of me. Could I

22 please be provided with the document. I was looking at page 15, and

23 that's not what it says there, what you just read out.

24 MS. KORNER: He got the -- I said the second interview, and he was

25 given the first.

1 JUDGE AGIUS: The first, right.

2 MS. KORNER:

3 Q. I'm not going to read it out again. You can read it yourself,

4 Mr. Radic.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: What page?

6 MS. KORNER: It's page 15, and it should be highlighted.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Go to page 15, Mr. Radic. And read it for yourself.

8 Don't read aloud because you will confuse the interpreters. Confuse, not

9 in a derogatory meaning.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Madam Prosecutor, I stand by what I

11 said when I said there is no list and that I can't see who was dismissed.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay.

13 MS. KORNER:

14 Q. I want you now to look, please, at page 19 of that interview,

15 which should be -- I'm sorry, for you page 17, and our page 19, second

16 interview. It's on the screen as well.

17 Question: "When the Prijedor Crisis Staff is saying that

18 individuals had been removed from the police force pursuant to this

19 decision, they were implementing a decision of the ARK Crisis Staff,

20 weren't they?"

21 Your answer: "Implicitly, yes. It comes from this document

22 there. Yeah, implicitly, yes, because this document says this was done on

23 the other document pursuant to this decision."

24 Then you were asked about the signature block of Mr. Brdjanin, you

25 had already said in your view, and you've told us it's not signed by him,

1 the decision of the 22nd of June, and you suggest that a graphologist

2 compares the signatures.

3 And then further on, the top of page 18 for you, and the bottom of

4 page 19 for us: "The orders that were coming to the Prijedor Crisis Staff

5 were implemented" -- I'm sorry. The question was before that. "Just pure

6 logic, looking at this purely logically, these two documents taken

7 together demonstrate that the Prijedor Crisis Staff recognised the

8 authority of the ARK Crisis Staff."

9 Your reply: "The orders that were coming to Prijedor Crisis Staff

10 were implemented."

11 Then the question: "And that is orders that were coming from the

12 ARK crisis staff. Correct?"

13 And you said: "It's visible from that previous document."

14 And then it was put to you that there were other documents that

15 show the same thing, but I don't think we need to tuggle with that.

16 Now, it's right, isn't it, Mr. Radic, and I'm asking you this as

17 somebody who was there and attended at least some of the meetings of the

18 regional crisis staff, that the major decisions made by the regional

19 crisis staff, dismissals and disarmament and the like, were implemented by

20 the municipalities?

21 A. That depends. In certain cases, in some places, they were fully

22 implemented, and some places they weren't. As far as Prijedor was

23 concerned, I think that they introduced many of their own decisions and

24 implemented things in their own manner.

25 Q. You're saying, as I understand it, Mr. Radic, Prijedor went even

1 further than most municipalities?

2 A. I would say so.

3 Q. And is -- I'm sorry. Go on.

4 A. Though I can only draw this conclusion on the basis of what

5 happened, but not on the basis of their decisions because I do not have

6 their decisions.

7 Q. And it's to your knowledge, isn't it, that the worst crimes that

8 were committed virtually within the Krajina were committed in the Prijedor

9 Municipality?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Now, I want to look at two other aspects of this passing on of

12 orders. Could you now in that very same interview go to page 47, please.

13 I'm sorry, for you, page 43, I think. For us, page 47.

14 At the bottom of our page 47, and the conversation before that had

15 been about the disarmament operation, went as follows: "So it was the ARK

16 Crisis Staff essentially passing on orders from above to the

17 municipalities?"

18 MS. KORNER: Now, Your Honour, I should add here that that was not

19 actually apparently translated, the next line, "within the Krajina that

20 led to this disarmament operation." So the only thing that was said in

21 B/C/S are the first words.

22 Q. So can you just confirm, Mr. Radic, what is actually said to you

23 there is: "So it was the ARK Crisis Staff essentially passing on orders

24 from above to the municipalities?" Is that what it says?

25 A. So we can say that the crisis staff issued those orders to other

1 crisis staffs. There is nothing about municipalities here. There are

2 just three dots and a question mark.

3 Q. Could you give me back -- I'm sorry.

4 MS. KORNER: Could I see what he's looking at.

5 Thank you.

6 Q. Could you read out line 24, the first part in green, without

7 adding anything. Just read that the sentence as written there, please,

8 read it aloud.

9 A. "That means we may say that the crisis staff issued those orders

10 from below to other crisis staffs." A few dots, question mark.

11 Q. From below, right. Well, that's...

12 All right. I think we'll have to have another look at that. But

13 anyhow, could you read out, please, the answer you gave, Mr. Radic, as it

14 is written there.

15 A. "Not issued orders, just forwarded what they themselves got. I

16 don't want you to think that the decisions were drafted in the crisis

17 staff. What we received we forwarded, and that was that." And what is

18 this so much about that, after that a dash, a question mark.

19 Q. All right.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment.

21 [Trial Chamber confers]

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Let's handle it in a different manner. Can I

23 ask the interpreters to look at lines 26 to 28 on page 43, what you have

24 on -- yes, exactly, what's going to be highlighted. And translate those

25 words into English without referring to the corresponding English text

1 that you have on the screen. I just would like to have a free translation

2 of that.

3 THE INTERPRETER: "It didn't send. It forwarded what they had

4 received. I don't want you to think that this decision was drafted in the

5 crisis staff. What we received, we forwarded. That was that. And what

6 is this? So much --?"

7 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. I've raised this because in the English

8 version, Ms. Korner, there is clearly "from above," two words which the

9 witness omitted when he was reading himself.

10 MS. KORNER: No.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: And I have now a confirmation from the interpreters

12 that those words --

13 MS. KORNER: I'm sorry, Your Honour, what's been translated was

14 the answer the witness gave, and it's the question that has the words

15 "from above."

16 JUDGE AGIUS: No. That's the answer. The answer.

17 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's comment, the word "from above" is

18 actually in line 24, but it is not "from above", but "from below".

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Exactly. But if you read, Ms. Korner, Mr. Radic's

20 answer in the English version, lines 25 onwards, it says: "No, not that

21 they gave, but that they forwarded what they were given from above." The

22 words "from above" do not show up in the Bosnian or Serbian text. This is

23 what I wanted to make clear.

24 MS. KORNER: They do show up, but he didn't read it.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: No, no, no they don't show up in the original -- in

1 the Serbian text which is lines 26 to 28 of page 43 or whatever, what

2 should be the corresponding words to "from above" do not exist. All

3 right?

4 MS. KORNER: Okay. I follow that. All right.

5 Q. I think the only thing we can do, Mr. Radic, is clear up now what

6 you were saying. Were you saying there to the interviewers that you

7 forwarded the instruction -- as a member of the regional crisis staff

8 instructions that were received from above, and by above, I mean from the

9 republic level, were being forwarded to the municipal level?

10 A. What I was saying is that decisions were not drafted in the crisis

11 staff. They were received, and then they were forwarded. But not to the

12 municipalities, but to the municipal secretariats for National Defence or

13 for the Territorial Defence. They were the ones who were in charge of

14 implementing those decisions.

15 Q. In the case of the Defence, which is what you were being asked

16 about there. That's what you're saying?

17 A. Yes, that's what it says in line 30.

18 Q. Right. Now, in respect of the decisions that were -- we've seen

19 from the regional crisis staff forwarded from -- to municipal -- either

20 SJBs or the municipal crisis staffs, were those instructions dreamed up by

21 the region on its own or were they as a result of instructions coming from

22 Pale?

23 A. As I've already said, the crisis staffs did not create anything.

24 They just forwarded what they received from a higher level.

25 Q. Right. I'm talking -- forget about the municipal crisis staff.

1 I'm talking specifically now about the regional crisis staff.

2 A. The regional crisis staff also had to receive an order from

3 somebody to the effect of carry out disarmament. It was not within its

4 purview to do that. So I suppose they must have received that order from

5 somebody else.

6 Q. What about the dismissals instruction? Was that something that

7 originated entirely from the region, from, I suggest, Mr. Brdjanin, or was

8 it something that came from Pale?

9 A. That was a matter of general policy, and the response to what had

10 happened on other sides, on the opposition sides.

11 Q. All right. I want to just deal very briefly, please, then with

12 the army and what you said about that in interview.

13 You personally were very concerned, weren't you, with the

14 supplying of the light brigades in the Banja Luka area, within the 1st

15 Krajina Corps?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Supplying clothing, food, accommodation, all of that?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And as I think you've already told us, and we may not need to look

20 at the interview for this, General Talic certainly attended the first

21 meeting of the regional crisis staff?

22 A. Yes, he attended one meeting.

23 Q. And thereafter, he sent a representative, normally

24 Colonel Vojinovic?

25 A. Vojinovic, yes.

1 Q. So sorry. I keep mispronouncing his name.

2 And just one moment. I'll just see if I need to put this. I

3 don't want to waste time if I don't have to.

4 Here, can I put to you, and you can look at it if you like,

5 Mr. Radic, but it's page 47 of the first interview. And page 48, I'm

6 sorry, in the B/C/S. And it should be highlighted.

7 The first -- you were asked: "Did you attend meetings in the

8 conference room behind your own office?" There had been discussion where

9 the meetings were being held.

10 And you said: "I think I was at one. I think that was the first

11 one where Mr. Talic was also present. That was the only time he attended.

12 When that meeting was held and General Talic attended, was there

13 discussion about looting that was taking place and the disappearance of

14 people?"

15 Your answer: "For the most part, from what I remember of the time

16 that Talic was present, we talked about supplying the military with food

17 and also preventing crime and things like that."

18 Do you agree that's what you said?

19 A. Yes, I do.

20 Q. I want to deal briefly then, please, with the subject of the

21 camps, particularly those in Prijedor. You knew, didn't you, Mr. Radic,

22 you'd heard about and that's why you went there, the camps in Prijedor?

23 A. I learned about the camp, and that's when we went there to see

24 what this was all about.

25 Q. It was common knowledge, wasn't it, in Banja Luka through refugees

1 who were coming there that there were three major camps in Prijedor?

2 A. It was common knowledge that there were camps, but we did not know

3 the nature -- what the nature of those camps was. And they asked us in

4 Banja Luka to provide accommodation for these people whom they had

5 detained.

6 Q. Mr. Radic, isn't it true that, first of all, the camp at --

7 established in this china factory -- ceramics factory, Keraterm, just on

8 the outskirts of Prijedor, that was known about in Banja Luka, wasn't it?

9 A. I was never in Keraterm.

10 Q. I know you didn't go there, but you'd heard about it, hadn't you?

11 A. Yes, I'd heard of Omarska, Keraterm, and Trnopolje.

12 Q. Right. Now, you told us when you were asked about this by Mr.

13 Ackerman on the first day that - and this is at page 49 of the LiveNote -

14 that there had been an invitation from the Prijedor people to visit the

15 camps. You said that you believed the invitation was sent to Mr. Brdjanin

16 who then invited all of us to go there together.

17 A. Yes.

18 MS. KORNER: Would Your Honour forgive me.

19 Q. On your way to Prijedor, did you pass through the areas that had

20 been destroyed around Kozarac and the like?

21 A. Yes, we went by Kozarac. You had to go by Kozarac.

22 Q. And it was clear, wasn't it, that there had been wholesale

23 destruction of the housing owned by the Muslims?

24 A. Kozara was within the area of war operations, and it was not just

25 Muslims there. There were also Serbs. Yes, and it was destroyed.

1 Q. This wasn't war operations, wasn't it? This was houses that had

2 been torched, set on fire deliberately?

3 A. According to my information, there was fighting that was conducted

4 from these houses. But you would have to ask those who were involved in

5 those war operations.

6 Q. But it was noticeable, wasn't it, that the Serb houses, those

7 owned by Serbs, were still standing untouched?

8 A. It is possible. I didn't know which houses were Serbian houses,

9 which ones are Muslim houses. But there are also Croat houses there as

10 well.

11 Q. Destroyed?

12 A. Yes, torched.

13 Q. All right. Now, I want to summarise what you told us. You told

14 us that what you saw in Omarska appalled you. That's right, isn't it?

15 A. Correct.

16 Q. So much so that you kicked a stone to express your rage as you

17 came out of Omarska?

18 A. This was not the only expression of my feelings. But this is

19 something that I recall and that others who were with me on that day

20 recall as well.

21 Q. And though you didn't see inside any of the buildings, you said

22 you believed, and this is at page 54, that there were more of them

23 indoors. Why did you believe there were more of them indoors?

24 A. Because according to the information that I had, there should have

25 been more people than those that were standing in front of the building,

1 in the area between the hangar and the admin building.

2 Q. You said that the conditions in there, and this was the end of

3 your sentence. You said: "I believe there are more of them indoors, and

4 the conditions in there were not very good." How did you know about that?

5 A. Because it was very hot, and the building was -- it was made of

6 metal. It was very hot outside, and I could only imagine how it must have

7 been inside.

8 Q. Weren't you surprised that the Prijedor authorities were asking

9 you and Mr. Brdjanin and other people to come and look at such an

10 appalling camp?

11 A. They had a very precise goal in mind when they invited us. They

12 didn't know what to do with these people.

13 Q. And these -- I'm sorry.

14 A. I said that they had to talk to the International Committee of the

15 Red Cross, and up to then, they had refused to do so.

16 Q. You told them they had to talk to the International Committee of

17 the Red Cross, they having refused to do that?

18 A. Yes, that's right.

19 Q. And you pointed out, did you, to them that these conditions were

20 unfit for human beings to live in?

21 A. I believe that the Red Cross was much better equipped to deal with

22 the situation than they themselves. At least they could do much better

23 than they did in that particular place.

24 Q. No. Did you point out to Dr. Stakic and Mr. Drljaca and

25 Mr. Kovacevic that human beings should not be held in these kind of

1 conditions?

2 A. I believe that Mr. Drljaca and Mr. Kovacevic were not there on

3 that occasion. It was only Stakic, the president of the municipal

4 assembly, who was there. And some of his associates who were also there

5 on that day.

6 Q. All right. And you told us that Mr. Brdjanin noticed that you

7 were very angry about this. And he didn't say very much and just

8 mentioned the fact that you kicked the stone. But you said at page 56:

9 "The mere fact that he, that is Mr. Brdjanin, mentioned it, that he told

10 me, that means that he agreed with me and that he also agreed that the way

11 these people were treated was not right. That is my assumption."

12 Do you remember telling us that?

13 A. Yes, that was my assumption. When we returned, he told some

14 people how angry I was about what I'd seen. That means that he had

15 noticed what had happened.

16 Q. But he himself expressed no anger at all. Is that the situation?

17 A. I can't claim that for a fact. I don't know whether he did or

18 whether he didn't. But I'm sure that he must have had some opinion about

19 what he had seen. I can't say that for a fact because I was not in the

20 position to observe very clearly what was going on around me.

21 Q. No. But you were with Mr. Brdjanin at the camp, and you were with

22 Mr. Brdjanin at the municipal building. At any time in your hearing did

23 he express any horror or disgust at what he had seen?

24 A. I don't remember whether he expressed horror, anything like that.

25 All I know is that he did not oppose me when I said that I would warn

1 Mr. Beat Schweitzer, the representative of the Red Cross, about what was

2 going on and that I would tell him this had to be dealt with as soon as

3 possible.

4 Q. And you told him it was your intention to get in touch with the

5 Red Cross as soon as possible to notify them that they should go into that

6 camp?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Could you have a look again, please, at the newspaper report that

9 you were shown by Mr. Ackerman, which is -- it's Exhibit 284. You've got

10 the marked copy?

11 And we've marked the part that we want you to look at. And now

12 I've lost my own English copy.

13 This is the report in Kozarski Vjesnik of the 17th of July. I

14 would like you to go to the marked part.

15 MS. KORNER: And usher, could we have, please, on the ELMO page 2

16 of the English. If you haven't got it there, you can use this copy and I

17 can read from the ELMO. Could you just put it down slightly for a moment.

18 The other way. Thanks.

19 Q. After they had made a tour of the combat area and collection

20 centres, the visitors from Krajina thanked their hosts for their

21 hospitality and efforts in creating a new Serbian state in that area,

22 especially at these fateful times when Alija Izetbegovic was confident he

23 has established a new Alcatraz in Prijedor.

24 "Radoslav Brdjanin: What we have seen in Prijedor is an example

25 of a job well done. And it is a pity that many in Banja Luka are not

1 aware of it yet, just as they are not aware of what might happen in Banja

2 Luka in the very near future."

3 Mr. Radic, did you think that what had happened in Prijedor, the

4 camps and the like was a job well done?

5 A. It was not a job well done. I must say that nobody prepared any

6 accommodation for the refugees, and I don't think that this was a job well

7 done.

8 Q. Then, if we go on we see that there was a briefing from Colonel

9 Arsic, Dr. Stakic, Kovacevic, Drljaca. So you saw him back at the

10 municipal building. Is that right?

11 A. It is.

12 Q. And then apparently you spoke about the significance of the events

13 in Prijedor.

14 MS. KORNER: Usher, could you pull that up slightly so I can see

15 the next paragraph. Thank you.

16 Q. "At present, we need Banja Luka as a logistics centre. We are

17 doing everything and will continue to do everything to preserve peace in

18 Banja Luka despite threats, various threats, and attempts to disrupt it.

19 In the Croatian, Austrian, and German media, Banja Luka has been accused

20 as -- has been accused of persecuting the Muslims and the Croats. Our

21 adversaries resort to every possible kind of lie. But in spite of that,

22 we are not giving in. Unfortunately, we do not have solutions for many

23 problems. Among those are refugees and collection centres. The

24 International Red Cross has been trying for days to reach Prijedor, but we

25 said that we shall provide them access only after they personally have

1 examined the situation of the Serbian refugees and prisoners in Odzak,

2 Rascani, Travnik, Zenica, Sarajevo, Konjic, and many other places."

3 Is that what you said, Mr. Radic?

4 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, may I inquire if the Prosecution is

5 putting to Mr. Radic that it is not the case that he reported what he saw

6 there to the ICRC? Is that the effort that's being made?

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Answer the question first, and then we come to your

8 point, Mr. Ackerman.

9 MR. ACKERMAN: All right.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Answer the question that Ms. Korner put.

11 I'm sorry, I apologise. Answer the question that Ms. Korner put

12 to you. I'll read the question myself. Or rather, you put it again,

13 Ms. Korner, it's easier.

14 MS. KORNER:

15 Q. Is that what you said to the newspapers, Mr. Radic?

16 A. Yes, I've already said that. The International Red Cross had

17 indeed tried to reach Prijedor for days. But they were prevented from

18 doing that, but not by us, but by those who were in charge of those camps

19 at the time. But I also said that they should go and look at the people

20 in Rascani and Odzak and so on and so forth and liberate them. Eventually

21 this was done. Prijedor was the first. What I was saying was that there

22 shouldn't be a difference made between the camps holding Serbs and between

23 the camps holding Bosniaks in Prijedor. That was what I was saying.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: If you only have one or more questions on this

25 particular topic which you would like to put now, you may proceed.

1 Otherwise, we stop here and have the break.

2 MS. KORNER: Yes, I've just got one further question.

3 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, Your Honour, you'd come back to me with my --

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, yes.

5 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, maybe we better have the break.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. I think it is obvious because he

7 answered in a way which also confirms that he did speak to the

8 International Red Cross.

9 --- Recess taken at 3.47 p.m.

10 --- On resuming at 4.13 p.m.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Ackerman, you're not feeling well, and you have

12 been abandoned by everyone?

13 MR. ACKERMAN: Yes. One of those days.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Now, there, everyone is coming back.

15 Yes, Ms. Korner.

16 MS. KORNER:

17 Q. You still got the article there, have you, Mr. Radic? What I

18 simply want to know is whether you said that you would provide access to

19 Prijedor for the Red Cross only after they had looked into the situation

20 of camps which held Serbs?

21 A. That's not what I said. We had informed them of what was

22 happening in Rascani, Odzak, and Samac a lot earlier. So I told them to

23 go to Prijedor, but that they should also deal with Rascani, which they

24 subsequently did. You have a document on the release of Serbs from

25 Rascani. So we noticed that treatment wasn't the same for those who were

1 detained in Rascani, Odzak, and in Prijedor. So there weren't any

2 conditions, but they did release the people, the detainees from Prijedor

3 first after all.

4 Q. To cut short this topic, Mr. Radic, isn't the reality that the

5 Red Cross only got into these camps, that is, Keraterm, Omarska, and

6 Trnopolje, after their conditions had been revealed to the world by the

7 ITN News journalists?

8 A. I don't know when the world found out about it. But I do know

9 that I spoke to members of the International Red Cross and that they said

10 that they had serious problems with regard to registering people who were

11 in Omarska because they weren't allowed to do this. They subsequently

12 went there and registered them. But whether this was after this was made

13 public, I don't know. But you can be sure that they had precise

14 information about what was happening there.

15 Q. Well, I'm suggesting to you in the clearest possible terms,

16 Mr. Radic, that only after the 5th of August when the ITN News crew went

17 there were any of the International Red Cross able to get into the camps

18 as a result of negotiations with Dr. Karadzic.

19 A. That's correct. Only he could have given an order and allowed any

20 crew of journalists to enter. I could only ask them and say that they

21 should be allowed to enter as soon as possible.

22 Q. So you say that sometime between the 17th of July and the 5th or

23 6th of August, you spoke to Mr. Schweitzer from the International Red

24 Cross in Banja Luka?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. And you indicated that he should go into Omarska?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And did he explain to you that they had been trying to get into

4 Omarska and Keraterm and Trnopolje without any success?

5 A. On several occasions he told me that he couldn't get in to those

6 camps.

7 Q. Did you think of raising the matter with Mr. Brdjanin to see

8 whether or not he could have some influence on the authorities in

9 Prijedor?

10 A. No, I didn't.

11 Q. All right.

12 Thank you. You can take the article away, and could I have my

13 copy back, please.

14 Now, the crisis staff decisions, the regional crisis staff

15 decisions, were verified on the 17th of July. Did you hear Mr. Brdjanin

16 on Radio Banja Luka on the 18th of July of 1992, the day after the

17 verification of the decisions?

18 A. I don't remember listening to him on Radio Banja Luka, Madam.

19 Q. Well, can I suggest that he said words to this effect and ask

20 whether you heard this: All the --

21 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, excuse me, he said he didn't hear him

22 on the radio and now she is asking him if he heard something she is going

23 to read. He said he didn't hear it. So, already said he answered the

24 question. So I don't think there's any basis for her now reading it to

25 him.

1 MS. KORNER: His exact words were I don't remember listening to

2 him, and I'm now seeing if I can refresh his recollection by putting to

3 him the words.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Also in line and along the pattern of the questions

5 and answers that we have had over the last few days when the witness

6 obviously needed his memory to be refreshed sometimes upon his request.

7 Yes, Ms. Korner, go ahead, please.

8 MS. KORNER:

9 Q. That he said this: "All the decisions have been adopted. Every

10 single one that has been passed is now in effect, and I now have the

11 opportunity to say again on the radio to all those who have received them

12 that they were supposed to implement them, and those who have failed to

13 implement them will probably bear consequences ranging from their removal

14 to responsibility."

15 Do you remember hearing Mr. Brdjanin on Radio Banja Luka saying

16 anything like that?

17 A. No, I really don't remember that.

18 Q. All right. Now, I want to ask you just briefly, and we're nearly

19 finished, about a woman known generally as Perka. You were asked about

20 her in the first interview at page 60 to 61. In the B/C/S, it will be --

21 can we just check that Mr. Radic is given the first interview.

22 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, just for the record, can I ask if the

23 quote that Ms. Korner just read from Banja Luka Radio comes from a

24 document that's an exhibit in this case, and if so, what is its exhibit

25 number?

1 MS. KORNER: It does come from a document that is an exhibit in

2 this case. It is -- just a moment, I'll just check.

3 Sorry, Your Honour, I should have made a note. It's P2326, and

4 it's the entry for the 18th of July.

5 MR. ACKERMAN: Thank you very much.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, both of you.

7 MS. KORNER:

8 Q. Yes, I'm sorry. It was page 60 of the first interview, and it's

9 61 in the B/C/S. And it should be highlighted, I think.

10 You were asked whether you you'd heard of a travel agency called

11 Perka. And your answer was this: "That was not a travel agency. That was

12 a scumbag from Zenica, and he did what he did here." Forgetting the next

13 bit. But I think we're in cross-purposes. Who were you referring to as a

14 scumbag? And I hope that's a proper translation of what you said.

15 A. I was referring to Perka.

16 Q. A woman?

17 A. Yes, a woman.

18 Q. Right. And she came from Zenica to Banja Luka, did she?

19 A. I assume that she came from Zenica. Because at the time there

20 were quite a few refugees from Zenica, but I can't claim for certain that

21 she was from Zenica. But it is certain that she wasn't from Banja Luka.

22 Q. All right. And you went on to say words to the effect that Perka

23 had to report to the authorities anyone who had authority or was in a

24 position to gain authority had to be supported by the higher ones: Then

25 you were asked: "Who did Perka have to report to?"

1 "To those who had to pay every time they got money from Muslims

2 and Croats."

3 You were asked: "Who was that?"

4 And you said: "No one here."

5 And then your answer: "I can't tell you exactly who she gave

6 money to in Pale, but whoever it must have been, whoever allowed her to do

7 this, but she had police protection, she had all kinds of protection but

8 the police knew it all."

9 And then, if I can summarise the rest because it's quite a long

10 entry, you went on to say: No one could say anything to her. We tried to

11 remove her but we couldn't.

12 "Who tried to remove her?"

13 "We did. We tried to remove her because this was a woman who

14 came from Zenica to do whatever she did here."

15 You were asked who you meant by "we."

16 And you said: "We in the municipality; we knew. We tried to

17 remove her because this was a madam who did not even pay taxes or anything

18 else. And we weren't allowed to do anything. So she continued with her

19 activities."

20 "She was extorting money, correct, from non-Serbs?"

21 "Extorting or not, it was illegal."

22 "Okay. Did you report that to the CSB in Banja Luka?"

23 "They all knew it."

24 "Who knew it all?"

25 "Those who protected her."

1 And you went on to say you asked for her removal.

2 Now, is that right, Mr. Radic? First of all, did you say that to

3 us?

4 A. Yes, I did.

5 Q. And was that right? You as the municipality president wanted to

6 remove this woman because she was extorting money but she was being

7 protected by somebody?

8 A. You see, we had a man who had been appointed by the municipality,

9 and anyone who wanted to leave Banja Luka would report to this person.

10 But this person told me that such an agency existed. That's what they

11 called themselves, an agency. And this Mrs. Perka was in the agency. She

12 would take money from those people. Are you listening or...?

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, go ahead, go ahead.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As I said, they called themselves an

15 agency, and Mrs. Perka was in that agency, and they would take money from

16 people who wanted to leave Banja Luka. As to who she gave money to, I

17 don't know. But we warned the CSB because only they could have

18 prohibited -- prevented them from working because at the time we didn't

19 have the SJB. We informed them that they should prevent her from

20 operating. But this wasn't done. I can only assume that someone

21 protected her and that it was in their interest to protect her.

22 MS. KORNER:

23 Q. Do you have any idea who that was? Do you have any idea who that

24 was? And I apologise, Mr. Radic. I was asking for a name. That's why I

25 turned to my colleague.

1 A. Who was it? Someone who had an interest in that matter and

2 someone who had enough power to protect that woman and allow her to do

3 what she shouldn't have done. There were many such cases in the war.

4 Q. Did you know about her colleague, a man named, I think,

5 Milos Bojinovic?

6 A. Milos Bojinovic. There was someone called Bandic who worked with

7 her. But Bojinovic, I couldn't tell you anything about Milos Bojinovic.

8 But there was someone called Bandic who worked her, and he protected Mrs.

9 Perka. Unfortunately he was from Banja Luka.

10 Q. Okay. Did you understand there was somebody called Perka and

11 somebody else called Bandic?

12 A. Yes, they worked in a company, in an agency. They formed an

13 agency. They received people that take money and do what they did

14 naturally. This was a difficulty because that could have been attributed

15 to the municipality which had a person who dealt with such matters, a

16 person to whom Bosniaks and Croats would go if they wanted to leave Banja

17 Luka. And he did warn about her.

18 Q. So these people running this Perka agency were taking advantage of

19 people who were desperate to leave the municipality. Is that the case?

20 A. Exactly.

21 Q. All right. All right. I want then finally to look, please,

22 Mr. Radic, at what you've told us about Mr. Brdjanin personally.

23 I want you first of all, please, to have a look at page 23 for us

24 in the English of the first interview. It's page 24 for you. And there

25 you were asked this in the English line 11. I think it's line 7 in the

1 B/C/S. "Mr. Brdjanin held extreme views about Muslims and Croats, didn't

2 he?"

3 And your reply was: "Mr. Brdjanin had a very big mouth, and he

4 talked a lot. How much he influenced the entire climate with his

5 speeches, that's another matter."

6 You were asked: "Tell me about his speeches."

7 And you said: "As deputy and as a president of the crisis staff,

8 he had access to the media, to the TV, to the newspapers, to the radio."

9 Question: "He spoke through them regularly, didn't he?"

10 Your answer: "He would appear when he thought it was good for him

11 to say something, and what he said you probably have on record."

12 It was put to you that, in fact, he stated only 2 per cent of

13 Muslims and Croats would be allowed to remain in the area of the

14 Autonomous Region of Krajina. Is that not correct?

15 And your reply was: "If that's what it says, then yes. Because he

16 said so many things you'd really need documentation to recall everything

17 he said. Just one thing, if you'll allow me, at that time in the

18 territories of Bosnia, Herzegovina, and Croatia, there was a propaganda

19 war going on, and one inflammatory statement would end up in another."

20 And then it continued.

21 And then put to you, "To go beyond propaganda, Mr. Brdjanin had

22 the authority as president of the ARK to cause events to occur in the

23 local municipalities. Correct?"

24 Your answer: "I don't know what you're referring to. I doubt

25 that he could have caused anything, but let's see what you're talking

1 about."

2 Question: "Well, I'm asking you. Did you agree with his extreme

3 views against non-Serbs?"

4 And your reply: "I did have problems with him. But I resolved

5 those directly. I would go to the TV, I'd go to the radio and confront

6 him."

7 Over the next page: "What discussions did you have with

8 Mr. Brdjanin about his extreme views?"

9 "Ugly ones."

10 "Okay, tell me about those," was the question.

11 "I cannot begrudge him saying things against mixed marriages. In

12 any case - you then told us we had everything written down - everything

13 was taped and recorded, and as I said, I had huge problems trying to calm

14 it down in Banja Luka."

15 Question: "And you would identify him as an extreme nationalist,

16 would you not?"

17 Answer: "He's not much more, he's not much of a nationalist."

18 Question: "Was he extreme in his views against non-Serbs?"

19 "In what his views were, I couldn't tell. But what he said, yes,

20 he was a nationalist. But again, it was like a competition, who would

21 spit the furthest."

22 And then you went on to tell us that you had Sarajevo television,

23 HTV, and this was just a reaction.

24 Do you remember saying that to us?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. And do you stand by what you said to us?

2 A. That he had a big mouth? Yes. I stand by that. And that he

3 would be opposed to what came from Sarajevo and from the HTV, Croatian

4 television. But with the permission of the Trial Chamber, it's difficult

5 for me to connect what he said about mixed marriages and the fact that he

6 would save mixed marriages at the same time in Banja Luka. In the

7 evening, he would talk against mixed marriages, and then the following

8 morning he would try to save the marriage of a mixed pair. So it's

9 difficult to make a connection between these two things.

10 Q. Yes. I think what you told us earlier, was that: That in

11 private, he would sometimes help out Muslims and Croats. This was in

12 evidence, Mr. Radic, not in the interview. But he couldn't say -- he

13 couldn't talk about that openly because of his position.

14 I can read you the exact words that you said if you like.

15 A. That's something that I have also stated here. When you asked me

16 about it, I said that he probably thought that it would be dangerous and

17 that they would probably have removed him from all his positions if he had

18 made such public statements, if he had stated this in public and if he had

19 done these things in public.

20 Q. Yes, because it was quite impossible in the climate of those days

21 for any public figure to admit that there was anything good to be said

22 about Muslims or Croats. Isn't that the situation?

23 A. It wouldn't have been healthy to behave in such a way.

24 Q. And can you look, please, now at, for you, page 49 of the first

25 interview, and for us page 48. It's lines 33 to 34. I'm sorry, it's the

1 top of that page. Yes, 48 or 49.

2 It's -- sorry, I ought to get back to.

3 You were being asked at the bottom of our page 47 how many times

4 you attended the meetings of the crisis staff, and you said rarely. And

5 then you said somebody put to you a dozen -- I'm sorry. Yes, it was

6 suggested: "Do you mean once or twice or a dozen?"

7 And you said: "A dozen, please."

8 And you said, I'm sorry, the question was: "What?"

9 And you said: "A dozen please, maybe two or three times. To tell

10 you the truth, I thought this was an illegitimate body, and I had many

11 more urgent things to do. And to tell you the truth, Mr. Brdjanin imposed

12 himself on the whole situation. His style was something I could just not

13 accept."

14 Did you say that to us?

15 A. I'm sorry, I'm looking for it. You said 47 and 48, but I'm now

16 trying to find the place.

17 Q. It's page 48.

18 A. 48, yes, I've got it in front of me now. As far as these meetings

19 are concerned, you said they were held in the municipal building.

20 Q. Not, it's -- if you go on one more page, I think it must be

21 page 49. I'm sorry, it should have been marked.

22 A. Yes, it's highlighted in yellow. I considered, et cetera.

23 Q. Right. I want simply to know also this: When you say his style

24 was something you couldn't accept, what did you mean by that?

25 A. Well, sometimes these were meetings which had no agendas. And in

1 the course of the meeting, certain things would be changed and subjects

2 that weren't at all on the agenda were discussed. I wasn't used to

3 working in such a way. And I didn't attend these meetings. When I attend

4 a meeting, I like to know what the agenda it. I like to know what the

5 subjects are, and I like to go to deal with the subjects item by item.

6 That was the usual way we would work, and that is why I did not attend

7 these meetings. And I didn't notice that they were dealing or trying to

8 resolve serious matters at these meetings.

9 Q. All right. And then that's all I want to ask you in the first

10 interview. Could you have the second interview now, please, on this

11 topic. And go to page 8. In the B/C/S, it's -- just a moment. Yes, it's

12 8 in both, I think. It's a very long answer you gave.

13 You were asked about his speeches. And in fact, what had happened

14 was you had been read his speech on the 12th of May assembly 1992 where he

15 had said that various people should be removed. And you said: "Well, you

16 can see for yourself from his speech how much the leading officials, how

17 much attention they paid to his speeches because Karadzic, after speeches

18 of" -- Karadzic used to say: "Well, Brdjanin has scored" - it says "a

19 goal" -- "own goal" .

20 Very much on the lines of that telephone conversation we listened

21 to a few days ago.

22 A. No, he didn't say that. He didn't say "own goals". Yes, that he

23 scored against himself, yes.

24 Q. Right. All right. And then you went on to explain various things

25 in particular about Mr. Ruzic of the HDZ. And you said down, further

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3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

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24

25

1 down: "I told you last time, and I'll tell you this time, Brdjanin didn't

2 get his authority from the crisis staff but from the fact that he was a

3 deputy. And if you're asking me if I was present at this gathering -

4 that's the 12th of May assembly - I wasn't because it was only the

5 deputies that were invited to such gatherings. He was also minister later

6 on, even vice-president of the government, but for construction and

7 communal public utilities. And these are the functions where he got his

8 authority from. And this is where he, the position he acted from when he

9 used to come here. And as far as this is concerned - actually referring

10 back to the speech - there are far worse that he used to say. But I have

11 to tell you that the majority of the Serbian people in Banja Luka did not

12 support this and used to say that Brdjanin's tongue was longer than

13 himself."

14 And then you made a comment about his height. Do you remember

15 saying that?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. What were the worst things that he used to say, if you can

18 remember them?

19 A. Well, what he had to say about mixed marriages, I think that's

20 what they reproached him with the most, when he would say this wasn't

21 desirable, when he said that mixed marriages weren't desirable. This

22 affected the way we understood things, it violated the sanctity of

23 marriage, especially if there were children, et cetera. But if I think

24 back to everything, well, he would usually respond to provocations that

25 came from Sarajevo television at the time, HTV, Croatian television, was

1 very trenchant. We were able to follow their programme because we were

2 within -- would receive it. But the subject, if you're asking me about

3 the subject, with your permission, Your Honours, he'd probably respond now

4 to Mr. Alispahic if the situation were at present and would say that we

5 were genetic result of the Turks. It was an ugly language, and Mr.

6 Brdjanin did these things.

7 If you have other records, transcripts, et cetera, well, I can't

8 remember everything.

9 Q. And the reality of it was, wasn't it, Mr. Radic, and you realised

10 that, was that these types of speeches made by a man in Mr. Brdjanin's

11 position were absolutely terrifying for the non-Serbs in Banja Luka and

12 everywhere else in the Krajina?

13 A. Yes, madam. But on the other hand, they were also terrifying for

14 all the Serbs in Sarajevo, all the Serbs in Croatia. It was just a

15 reaction of Brdjanin as a Serb to what was being said in Zagreb and

16 Sarajevo. Yes, it was terrifying, indeed it was.

17 Q. And if you look on, please, in that second interview to page 54,

18 you talked there about the subject you already mentioned to us. The

19 dangers. I'm sorry. It's page 54 in English. In B/C/S, it's page 49 at

20 the bottom, and over to page 50.

21 You were asked: "Was it a very risky business?" I'll wait until

22 it comes up on the screen. You were asked: "Was it a very risky

23 business, dangerous for a Serb to help a Muslim or Croat during the period

24 of time we're talking about?"

25 You said: "Yes, it was. For example, for instance, I had a

1 friend in Doboj, and I had to secure through the president of the ICRC in

2 Doboj to forward some food to him because it was enough for them to label

3 you as someone who was helping the Muslims and you were - I think it must

4 be at their mercy, or out of their mercy. The same things happens to the

5 people who were helping the Serbs in Sarajevo and Zagreb."

6 "I know, that's true. But again, in this area, who did you

7 perceive? Where was the danger coming from as a Serb to help a Muslim or

8 Croat family in this city here? Where was the danger coming from, the

9 danger that you felt?"

10 "From my own national core" .

11 "So from your own people?"

12 "My own people. Everybody is my own people. But the Serbs, if

13 they, if he finds out that I'm helping the Muslims, you know, if he knows

14 and he's going to say it, I know how much hassle I had because I helped

15 Mr. Ruzic. And for example, Colonel Hasotic who will not come to testify,

16 I had to be very careful of what I was doing when I was helping him

17 because everybody had forgotten what Mladic had said about him, that he

18 was a good soldier and that he was willing to fight but it was to no

19 avail."

20 Do you remember telling us that?

21 A. I do.

22 Q. And could you now move to page 51 in your version and 56 for us.

23 You were dealing with -- you talked about Bishop Komarica and what

24 happened in 1993 and 1995, Operation Flash. You were then asked this:

25 "When people disobeyed instructions from Pale within this region, were

1 they generally removed?"

2 "Well, at least they would go through what I went through in S93."

3 JUDGE AGIUS: September.

4 MS. KORNER: September. Thank you.

5 Q. "They would be called in, they would go through ironing but some

6 of them would be replaced straight on.

7 And you were asked: Ironing. You mean things would be

8 straightened out with the person?"

9 "I don't know."

10 And you replied: "I was -- you know very well what `ironing'

11 means But it's not a tepid iron, either. It's a very hot one." And then

12 the -- you were asked about Colonel Hasotic. Do you remember saying that?

13 A. Yes. But Hasotic was not ironed or grilled by anybody. He's

14 still in Banja Luka, and we are good friends, although I must tell you

15 that even today I have to be very careful when I choose venues where I'm

16 going to meet him. He is a man from Sandzak who said I am not going back

17 to Sandzak. I have come to Banja Luka and this is where I am staying.

18 And Indeed he has stayed.

19 Q. Even today, there are problems, aren't there, of maintaining

20 friendships. Serbs and other nationalities?

21 A. Not only in Banja Luka, but also in Sarajevo and elsewhere. It is

22 not healthy, to put it this way, for friends of different ethnic

23 backgrounds to get together. This is still an undesirable situation.

24 Q. Now, finally, and this is the last topic. I want to go back to

25 where I started, Mr. Radic.

1 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, Ms. Korner. Mr. Ackerman, how are you

2 for redirect?

3 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, it looks like 30, 30 to 40 minutes,

4 something in that nature.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Go ahead, Ms. Korner.

6 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I'm only going to be 5 minutes.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: You can utilise whatever time is left, leaving, of

8 course, Mr. Ackerman what he said he requires. It's up to you.

9 MS. KORNER: Thank you.

10 Q. I'd like you to have back the first interview for a moment,

11 please. At page 71 for you, line 31, and then it goes over to page 72.

12 Page 70 for us.

13 A. I apologise. Am I supposed to look at the top of the page or the

14 bottom of the page?

15 Q. It should be highlighted, page 71 starting at line 31, I hope.

16 First interview. It's the part that begins after -- you were being

17 asked -- again, effectively what you talked about in the second interview,

18 September 1993. You were asked: "What other issues did you disagree with

19 about things that were happening in Banja Luka or the ARK?"

20 And your reply: "They always said that I was separatist, that I

21 wanted to secede the western part from Republika Srpska."

22 Question: "You wanted Banja Luka to be the capital of a separate

23 state. That's right?"

24 "That was not the basic goal, but that came later. I just could

25 not agree as mayor. As the mayor, I could not agree with people coming

1 down from the hills and doing what they did in Banja Luka."

2 And I think what's been left out, and can we just check, is:

3 "Take for example, Mrs. Plavsic." Is that in the B/C/S? It has been left

4 out in the English, I think.

5 A. Shall I read what it says here.

6 Q. No, just a moment. I'm not sure we're looking at the right...

7 Yes, Plavsic. If you look at page 72 at the top, line 4, I think

8 it doesn't come out in the English, but you said look what happened to

9 Mrs. Plavsic or words -- "take, for example, Mrs. Plavsic."

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. If we just read on. You were asked: "Was there a meeting at some

12 stage in Banja Luka between you, Karadzic, and Krajisnik when Karadzic was

13 saying to you that Banja Luka hadn't been properly ethnically cleansed?"

14 In other words, that they were blaming you that there were still Muslims

15 and Croats in Banja Luka.

16 Your answer: "That was not just once. That happened a lot. But

17 I can't recall exactly when they said all that. But that objection was

18 made against me."

19 Question: "And you say that was more than once?"

20 Answer: "Whenever we would meet, somebody would object to the fact

21 that there were too many of them. It was too many for them and for the

22 Muslims and Croats, not enough so."

23 And then you were asked: "So you were aware that the creation of

24 the Republika Srpska did involve the deportation of Muslims and Croats?"

25 And you said: "Not necessarily. If the same hadn't happened on

1 the other side." And then you went on to deal with that. And on the same

2 page, you dealt with the fact that the deportation was not a voluntary

3 one.

4 Now, do you remember saying that to us, Mr. Radic?

5 A. Yes, but I would be very grateful to you if we could read the

6 entire text, between 17 and 23, the paragraph that you have just omitted.

7 Q. Certainly. I'm perfectly happy to do that.

8 "Not necessarily. If the same hadn't happened on the other side,

9 I keep trying" -- Your Honour, in the original it says "I." It says are

10 you, but it does, we checked that. "I keep trying to tell people that

11 when I received 45.000 Serbs from Slavonia and Banja Luka in December of

12 1991, that that had to have been reflected in the demographic structure of

13 Banja Luka. When 250.000 Serbs from the Republic of Serbian Krajina in

14 Knin came here -- come here and they still haven't left, how can you

15 expect an unchanged and unaltered demographic structure."

16 Do you want me to read on, Mr. Radic, or is that sufficient?

17 A. It is sufficient to get the whole picture and put things in

18 perspective. So it was nobody's will to move people from this area, to

19 cleanse people. If you first receive 45.000, and then 250.000, then even

20 those who live there, the non-Serb population, cannot feel at ease. And

21 if you will allow me to say another thing, if there hadn't been

22 Mr. Samaruga and if he hadn't seen what was going on when the exodus of

23 Serbs started from Croatia, God knows what would have happened in Banja

24 Luka in 1995 when these people were all armed and if they had entered the

25 city centre they would have torn it apart. And what would have happened

1 to the non-Serb population is very hard for me to begin to imagine.

2 However, they were diverted, and redirected to go around Banja Luka so

3 they were prevented from the town itself. This is what I had in mind when

4 I said this, Madam Prosecutor.

5 Q. Yes, I understand that. But effectively, what you were telling us

6 there was that Karadzic and Krajisnik were saying "you are not ethnically

7 cleansing Banja Luka properly" and you were saying "it is quite impossible

8 to do that because of the numbers of refugees." Is that right?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Yes.

11 MS. KORNER: Thank you, Mr. Radic.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Ms. Korner.

13 Mr. Ackerman.

14 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I'm wondering if you would be willing

15 to take the break now.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Of course.

17 MR. ACKERMAN: Then I can complete after the break.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, of course, Mr. Ackerman.

19 MR. ACKERMAN: 5.20.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: 5.20.

21 --- Recess taken at 4.59 p.m.

22 --- On resuming at 5.24 p.m.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Radic. You are going to be asked a few

24 more questions by Mr. Ackerman arising out of the cross-examination.

25 Mr. Ackerman.

1 MR. ACKERMAN: Thank you, Your Honour.

2 Re-examined by Mr. Ackerman:

3 Q. Mr. Radic, the first document we're going to look at is -- was

4 shown to you by the Prosecutor. It's -- I don't think the usher is going

5 to need to find it. I think we might be able to do this all with Sanction

6 if I can run it and if I get some help from the booth. Yes, it's coming

7 up.

8 You'll recall Document P2698 was that document from the

9 journalist, Milos Vasic I think was his name, that you were asked about

10 yesterday.

11 A. I'm sorry, this is in English.

12 Q. I know it's in English. And there's nothing we can do about that.

13 You're not going to be able to read it. The reason I'm bringing it up is

14 so everybody else can see it. And I'm going to have to read the parts to

15 you that I want to refer to. And it will be translated for you as I read

16 it.

17 So the part I'm interested in is this: "Gangs of renegades,

18 paramilitary formations, are roaming through Eastern Bosnia with total

19 disregard for anything or anyone, including the Serbian government agents

20 describing themselves as commanders of the local Territorial Defence. The

21 leaders of the group, at least ten are known to exist, openly say they

22 have no intention of ever returning to Serbia where they could face trial

23 for war crimes. Their objective is to settle down one day and become

24 high-ranking officials in a future Karadzic government. Murder,

25 hostage-taking, looting, the expulsion of people from their homes have

1 become probably so normal that even the combat morale of Karadzic's troops

2 has suffered. The president of the Serb Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina no

3 longer controls his troops, and neither does General Ratko Mladic who said

4 so two weeks ago."

5 This paragraph that I read to you talks about -- describes a

6 situation that sounds of almost complete chaos and anarchy going on at the

7 time. Was that the case? Was it pretty much chaos and anarchy going on

8 at the time?

9 A. Mr. Ackerman, what is described here is Eastern Bosnia, whereas we

10 were in Western Bosnia. However, I sincerely doubt that these and such

11 people could do whatever they wanted to do, given the fact that

12 Ratko Mladic was there. And especially if those were formations such as

13 described in here.

14 Ratko Mladic could not support and could not tolerate an army with

15 ethnic characteristics. That's what I know.

16 Q. Let me see if I understand what you just told us. Are you telling

17 us that there were these out-of-control groups that Mladic simply could

18 not tolerate? Is that what you're saying?

19 A. First of all, I said that I don't know what was going on in

20 Eastern Bosnia, in Podrinje and in Romanija and in the hills out there.

21 We were in the western part in Bosanska Krajina, so I don't know what was

22 going on there. However, I express my doubt as to the fact that

23 Mr. Ratko Mladic who later on became a general would allow them to go wild

24 there. Especially, he did not tolerate an army with ethnic

25 characteristics. He would, for example, snatch those Chetnik insignia

1 from their hats and stomp on those with their feet. You know what Chetnik

2 insignia I'm talking about, those that they used to wear on their caps.

3 Q. Were there, and this will be my final question about this and

4 we'll go to this next section that I want to talk to you about. Were

5 there groups operating, paramilitary groups operating in the Krajina area

6 that were out of control, not under the control of General Talic or the

7 police, just sort of renegade bands, basically, of criminals? Was that

8 happening? That's my question. Was that happening in 1992?

9 A. There was an attempt. However, they were very soon either brought

10 in by the military or they would run away. Because General Talic told

11 them loud and clear that they should either return to the barracks, put on

12 uniforms, take weapons, and go to the front line.

13 Q. And I think you told us that's his position with regard to the SOS

14 when he came back from the corridor after they had opened the corridor,

15 that what he told the SOS people was they had to either join the corps or

16 go away. Correct?

17 A. Correct. Those who didn't want to do that fled to Belgrade, did

18 there whatever they did. They tried to return. And one of them in a

19 conflict with the police got killed.

20 Q. The second part I want from this same article that I want to ask

21 you about reads as follows: "The Bosnian Krajina on the other hand was

22 always politically autonomous, often widely at variance with the policies

23 of Karadzic with who it should by definition be in total agreement. This

24 is understandable. They're historically and in many other ways two

25 different regions. Apart from this, Karadzic happens to be physically

1 distant."

2 Is that an accurate statement in this article?

3 A. At the beginning, this was the case. Bosnian Krajina was far away

4 from the centre, from Sarajevo and Pale, and it strived towards some sort

5 of an autonomy. And it tried to affirm this autonomy by establishing an

6 assembly, by introducing their on constitution. I am saying an attempt

7 was made, but this attempt was thwarted on the day when the assembly was

8 supposed to sit for the first time.

9 Obviously, a lot of people used that to portray it as a conflict

10 between the Serbs in the west and the Serbs in the east.

11 Q. All right. You said -- you told us that -- going back now to that

12 first part we referred to, that early on, there were these attempts by

13 groups that were out of control. I think you called them "attempts."

14 Yesterday, you'll recall that you were shown a document by Ms. Korner.

15 It's Exhibit P35. We don't need to look at it again today because you'll

16 know exactly what I'm talking about.

17 This was from the Serb --

18 A. If you remind me of it.

19 Q. It came from the Serb club of deputies. And Ms. Korner and the

20 Judge were both asking you about it. There was a statement in there:

21 "Establish immediately strict control of the territory of the Autonomous

22 Region of Krajina."

23 MS. KORNER: It was actually an assembly, not the club of

24 deputies. An assembly meeting.

25 MR. ACKERMAN: Okay.

1 Q. Do you recall that document?

2 JUDGE AGIUS: The deputies is 29. This is 35.

3 MR. ACKERMAN: Yeah, this is 35. I was wrong about that,

4 Your Honour.

5 Q. You remember that statement in that document, don't you?

6 A. I've heard a lot of things now. Are you talking about the club,

7 about the Assembly of Krajina, or the People's Assembly of

8 Republika Srpska? What are we talking about here.

9 Q. I think it was the Assembly of the Autonomous Region of Krajina.

10 The document was P35. You were asked about it at length yesterday. There

11 was one phrase in there that said: "Establish immediately strict control

12 of the territory of the Autonomous Region of Krajina." I'm just asking

13 you if you remember being asked about that.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you remember I told you it means take control --

15 effectively take control of the territory. And you told me no, there is a

16 difference between take control and establish control. Then you

17 proceeded -- do you remember now?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, to establish control, and that

19 was my precise answer. Control over the territory, because the question

20 was whether this was control over people.

21 MR. ACKERMAN:

22 Q. Okay. Now bearing in mind what we have been talking about the

23 last few minutes, about these groups that were trying to -- making

24 attempts, as you say, to -- out of the control of the army, out of the

25 control of the police, the language "establish immediately strict control

1 of the territory of the Autonomous Region of Krajina," Ms. Korner

2 suggested that meant to take strict control over the non-Serb areas, that

3 strict control should be established over those areas.

4 Let me ask you if that's the only conclusion one could draw from

5 this directive, or can it have meant taking control of those places that

6 were in chaos and anarchy at the time?

7 A. I explained to Madam Prosecutor that we had to establish the

8 control over the territory. Why? Because the military had already

9 concentrated on the banks of the Sava River and on the banks of the Una on

10 the Croatian side. Secondly, there were individuals who tried to

11 establish their own army. This is not what I said to Ms. Korner. One

12 such unit would line up every morning in the parking lot by the municipal

13 assembly building. I warned the military, and they were then asked to

14 join the regular troops. Those who wanted to join the regular troops were

15 given uniforms; those who didn't, they had to surrender their weapons.

16 They had to return whatever uniforms they had and leave the area.

17 One more thing I would like to say: That particular unit got

18 involved in war operations. And when these young men were wounded, their

19 parents came knocking on my door to ask me who would be in charge of their

20 treatment and who would compensate them. I referred them to the person,

21 to the commander who took them into the battle without any authorisation.

22 Then, that person realised that it was not the right thing to do, to take

23 these men without any authority into a battle where they could be injured

24 or where they could be killed.

25 Q. All right. We're going to be here a long time if you spend that

1 much time answering each of my questions. We'll be here until sometime

2 Monday, so please try to do your best, and I'll try to do my best,

3 although I'm having a little trouble technologically right now.

4 I want you to look at another document. It's -- I'll get it here

5 in just a second. Don't worry, it's coming. Now, the other day when I

6 was showing you a document from the Prijedor Municipality that had to do

7 with Prijedor not being willing to follow the orders of the ARK Crisis

8 Staff, I showed you the wrong document.

9 I'm now showing you P1261. And if you have trouble reading it, I

10 can make it bigger for you.

11 A. Please enlarge it. I can't see very well.

12 Q. Whoops, that's not it.

13 All right.

14 A. Yes, that's what it says here in this conclusion, and that

15 supports the claim that they wanted to be autonomous with respect to the

16 regional crisis staff, and that that municipal crisis staff would not

17 accept the decisions taken before the 22nd of June 1992.

18 Q. In fact, it says, doesn't it, that they won't honour any until

19 after June 22nd, 1992?

20 A. That's correct.

21 Q. And the major question here is do you think that Prijedor felt

22 like they had to implement all the decisions of the ARK Crisis Staff or

23 that they had -- that they had the power to choose which ones they thought

24 they wanted to implement?

25 A. This clearly shows what the case was. They said they wouldn't

1 implement decisions taken before the 22nd of June. So it is obvious that

2 they adopted decisions without referring to the ARK Crisis Staff. That's

3 what I said when I spoke about municipalities said -- did what they wanted

4 to do.

5 Q. When Ms. Korner was talking to you today about implementation, she

6 kept using the word "orders" from the ARK Crisis Staff. And did they

7 follow orders? Did they implement orders? Do you recall ever seeing a

8 document from the ARK Crisis Staff that was called an "order"?

9 A. No.

10 Q. All right. Now, in your testimony yesterday, I think it was

11 yesterday, you were talking about -- and I think I asked you about it

12 even, that -- you talked about the people in Prijedor being too powerful

13 for Brdjanin, and you were asked about that. And you said: "Not only

14 were they too powerful for Brdjanin, they were too powerful for even some

15 other institutions of government. They had a sort of autonomy of their

16 own. I would like to remind you that even before the war, they asked to

17 be a subregion, not to be part of the region of Bosanska Krajina."

18 Now, in connection with that response of yours, I want you to look

19 at another document. And this is P247, I believe.

20 Now, this is a document from what's called the Sanska Unska area.

21 And it was a meeting of representatives from Srpska Krupa, Bosanski

22 Petrovic, Bosanski Novi, Bosanska Dubica, Prijedor, and Sanski Most. The

23 part I'm interested in having you look at is -- let me get it on the

24 screen for you.

25 A. In English.

1 Q. I know. I'm a little slow, but I'll get there.

2 Let's see. I think we probably got there. If you look at 3(a),

3 and if you need me to make this bigger for you, I can make it bigger for

4 you?

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Make it bigger straight away.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Please enlarge it.

7 MR. ACKERMAN:

8 Q. Probably the best thing to do now is for you just to read it out

9 loud, and then it will get translated. But read very slowly.

10 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I'm sure we all remember this document.

11 We don't need to have it read out loud.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Let him read it, because I can't see the English

13 version like this. So at least I will have a translation of it.

14 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, may I suggest that instead of

15 Mr. Ackerman playing with his technological marvels, we go straight back

16 to ordinary exhibits. It's quicker.

17 MR. ACKERMAN: It might be. But sometimes it takes a long time to

18 find the document and give it to the witness. But if, if the -- the

19 Registrar wants to find PT47 and give it me --

20 JUDGE AGIUS: In the meantime, we're wasting time. Mr. Radic,

21 read those few lines, please, in your own language, and someone will have

22 them translated to us. Not someone, I mean the --

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] With your permission, Your Honours,

24 these technological advances shouldn't be to my detriment. I wouldn't

25 want to be here on Monday.

1 Let me read it. "The common conclusions at the meeting in Banja

2 Luka on the 15th of June 1992." Since you have warned me of this

3 Mr. Ackerman. "I considered that the crisis staff of the Autonomous

4 Region of Krajina" -- and now you have made it smaller again.

5 "So the common conclusions of the session in Banja Luka on the

6 15th of June 1992. (A), we believe that the crisis staff of the ARK has

7 to work in wartime conditions in a more serious way and with greater

8 political and professional sense for the problems in all municipalities

9 that constitute the Autonomous Region of Krajina.

10 "(B), in this sense we suggest that the president of the Crisis

11 Staff of the ARK be Vojo Kupresanin by virtue of his position as president

12 of the Assembly of the Autonomous Region of Krajina.

13 "(C), all the sessions of the crisis staff of the ARK should in

14 future be held with a tape recorder and some court reporters." And there

15 is nothing else.

16 MR. ACKERMAN:

17 Q. All right. The first question I have about that is that's, I

18 think, what you were talking about as the subregion that the Prijedor

19 Municipality was part of and interested in being part of. And the

20 question I have for you about that, that indicates, does it not, that

21 there was dissension among that group, at least, against the operation of

22 the crisis staff of the autonomous region and especially against Brdjanin

23 as its head?

24 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I haven't objected as yet. Every single

25 one of these questions is leading. Every single one of these comments --

1 I'm making a speech again. It's not re-examination

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's proceed, Ms. Korner. We will finish earlier.

3 MS. KORNER: You think.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I continue.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, yes, please.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. Ackerman, I think that this was

7 demonstrated more by the list of municipalities that you showed in which a

8 request was made for them to be a subregion of Prijedor at its head. But

9 on the basis of this, I couldn't conclude that that is what it means. Why

10 did they ask for Kupresanin instead of Brdjanin? On the basis of this

11 short passage, I couldn't say. But it is obvious that there is something

12 they weren't satisfied with as far as Brdjanin is concerned, and this is

13 why they requested Kupresanin. What you showed me was far more

14 indicative, when they said that they were asking for a subregion with

15 municipalities. Prijedor, Dubica, and Novi Krupa, et cetera.

16 That's the subregion before the war that existed.

17 MR. ACKERMAN:

18 Q. Now, have you been given this document now in its original form?

19 If you try to find this same page that's on the screen and look at the

20 paragraph right at the very bottom. That's the next paragraph I'm

21 interested in.

22 A. Yes. That happens to do with the representatives of Krupa, et

23 cetera, were present. And under (e) it says: "We believe that the

24 functioning of the crisis staff hasn't been satisfactory to date and that

25 it is being reduced to the Banja Luka local interest. The crisis staff in

1 our opinion should be formed by the Municipal Assembly and the

2 representatives of the SDS in all the municipalities that form the ARK."

3 Is that what you were referring to, Mr. Ackerman? That is (e).

4 Q. I'm looking at actually -- paragraph (e) is what you just looked

5 at. But look at paragraph (f) now, please. I think it's the next.

6 A. The work of the Serbian Democratic Party must make itself felt,

7 especially during these hard times of war. So far, we have been

8 dissatisfied with the work of the regional board of the Serbian Democratic

9 Party in Banja Luka." That is (f).

10 Q. And then there's one paragraph after that that starts with the

11 "accordingly, personnel changes should be made in the crisis staff." Do

12 you see that? I don't think you need to read it out. Just...

13 A. Which paragraph is that? (g), (h)?

14 Q. It's the next one. It's the paragraph between what you just read

15 from (f) and paragraph (g).

16 A. Okay, okay.

17 Q. It speaks about urgently breaking with individuals who have

18 decided to obstruct the work of the Serbian Democratic Party in the

19 Autonomous Region of Krajina and to question the lofty goals which have

20 galvanised the Serbian people.

21 Now, who do you think that would be referring to, requesting

22 personnel changes in the crisis staff and getting rid of people who are

23 obstructing the work of the Serbian Democratic Party in ARK? Who would

24 that be referring to in the context of everything else we've seen in this

25 document?

1 A. Mr. Ackerman, it's difficult for me to say who they're referring

2 to. It is obvious that they are not satisfied with the work of the

3 members of the crisis staff of ARK at the time. They don't say who should

4 be replaced, but it is obvious that they requested that some people be

5 replaced if they thought that they were not sufficiently engaged, not

6 sufficiently involved in implementing the SDS's positions. But who

7 they're referring to, I don't know.

8 Q. Well, we saw earlier in the document that they were asking that

9 Mr. Kupresanin take over as head of the crisis staff. Who would he be

10 replacing if he did that?

11 A. He'd replace Brdjanin who was the president of the crisis staff.

12 So they wanted to bring in Kupresanin. Brdjanin was the president of the

13 crisis staff at the time.

14 Q. During your cross-examination by Ms. Korner, you were asked about

15 a document. It's Exhibit P97. You'll remember it, I'm sure. It's the

16 document that had -- that she showed you that had the variants A and B --

17 variant A depending on -- for a Serb majority municipality; variant B for

18 a minority municipality. Do you remember that document?

19 A. I'd like to see that document. I've really seen a lot of

20 documents, so I can no longer remember which one is concerned since five

21 days have passed. If you have such a document, I would like to see it.

22 Q. I will get it to you in a moment.

23 A. I remember very vaguely, but I would like to see it.

24 Mr. Ackerman, could you please tell me the page.

25 Q. There's no page I'm interested in. I just want you to be familiar

1 that -- I'm just asking you if you remember being shown that document.

2 A. If I can't read it, how can I know whether I've seen it? There's

3 variant A, first level, et cetera. I have the impression that I've seen

4 this document, but I'm not quite sure what your question concerns, so I'd

5 be glad to answer it, though.

6 Q. Let me see if you can remember, and if not, fine, we'll go on to

7 something else.

8 You said in your examination yesterday, Ms. Korner asked you about

9 that document. You said: "It was delivered to all municipalities." And

10 my question is how would you know it was delivered to all municipalities?

11 How could you possibly know that?

12 A. Mr. Ackerman, which document? Please tell me finally. I'd like

13 to see the document.

14 Q. The one you are looking at. That's the document.

15 A. Well, the one I'm looking at, it consists of four pages. The

16 entire document?

17 Q. The entire document.

18 A. The Serbian Democratic Party, Bosnia-Herzegovina, the main board,

19 yes, of course, it was forwarded to everyone. It was forwarded to

20 everyone.

21 Q. The question I have is how you would know that it was forwarded to

22 everyone? On what are you basing that conclusion?

23 A. Well, because the Serbian Democratic Party in Bosnia and

24 Herzegovina, the main board, strictly confidential, copy number, et

25 cetera, et cetera, was probably forwarded to everyone. Instructions for

1 the functioning of the Serbian People in Bosnia and Herzegovina. It must

2 have been forwarded to everyone. You see it says copy number 100 here.

3 Q. So you're just assuming that it was forwarded to everyone? You

4 don't know?

5 A. Well, it's highly probable that everyone received this because

6 this is a document which refers to the organisation and activity of the

7 organs of the Serbian People in Bosnia and Herzegovina. I don't know what

8 else I can tell you. That's the beginning.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: I think it's clear. His answer is clear enough.

10 MR. ACKERMAN:

11 Q. Okay, I'd like you to look now at Document P272, please. And I'll

12 let the usher get it for you.

13 This will be I think the third time that you have been shown this

14 document. Ms. Korner showed it to you today as an example - is this the

15 right one, yes - as an example of how decisions of the ARK Crisis Staff

16 were implemented in various places. What I want to do is draw your

17 attention -- this is a document that was circulated actually by Stojan

18 Zupljanin. I want to draw your attention to the second page of that

19 document under the number 3 where it reads as follows: "However,

20 employees may not be dismissed or removed from posts without the knowledge

21 of the Security Services Centres, though the contrary has been done in

22 some stations. Adequate solutions to their appointments and duty

23 assignments which do not contradict item 1 of the decision must be sought

24 out."

25 My question is, does this document show that the police are

1 implementing the decision of the ARK Crisis Staff or that they are not

2 implementing a decision of the ARK Crisis Staff unless they wish to? And

3 what does this say here? What is Zupljanin telling the chiefs in the

4 various local police stations?

5 A. Mr. Ackerman, on the first page, it says that the CSB Banja Luka

6 is sending this, the Security Services Centre in Banja Luka. I'd like to

7 see the decision if there is one, which is the original decision from the

8 AR Krajina Crisis Staff. It refers to the crisis staff decision that's on

9 the first page. But on the second page, it says that it should not be

10 implemented without him being aware of it. So he's saying that there are

11 other solutions and that this should not be done without his knowledge.

12 That's what I said yesterday, too. And I stand by what I said yesterday.

13 Mr. Zupljanin took the liberty not to follow what it says here.

14 Q. All right. I now want to -- I'm finished with that. I want to

15 ask you about something from your second statement to the Office of the

16 Prosecutor. And it's on page 51 in English. And I don't have the B/C/S

17 version, so I am not going to be able to find it for you. But I think if

18 you had the English version and looked at page 51, I could -- it's a very

19 short thing that I want you to see. This has to do with your visit to

20 Omarska and you're going to see Mr. Schweitzer about that, upon your

21 return to Banja Luka.

22 MS. KORNER: I think page 46 or 47 in the B/C/S.

23 MR. ACKERMAN: I don't think we really need the B/C/S. I think we

24 can get through this rather quickly if we just find page 51 of the

25 English.

1 Q. You're being asked about the visit to Omarska. And starting at

2 line 6 on page 51, you say: "I went to the ICRC and asked Meaning or

3 Schweitzer - I don't know who was the boss then - you know, get them out

4 of there."

5 And Mr. Cayley said: "We know. We know you did. We know you

6 did."

7 Did you get the impression when during that exchange that what

8 Mr. Cayley was telling you was that the Prosecutor's office knew that you

9 had gone to Mr. Schweitzer and reported to Mr. Schweitzer what you saw at

10 Omarska, that they knew that from independent sources? Is that the

11 impression you got?

12 A. Mr. Ackerman, I have to say that I didn't ask myself how he

13 obtained that information and what the fact that he knew that I had spoken

14 to Mr. Schweitzer meant. I don't know who told him about that. I don't

15 know where he found out that I had spoken about this. I don't know

16 whether he received a document from the Red Cross. But it's obvious that

17 the man said that he knew. And I didn't ask myself how it is that he knew

18 this.

19 Q. Now, okay, I'm finished with that.

20 Earlier today you indicated that Mr. Brdjanin had spoken

21 against -- spoken out against mixed marriages. I want you to think about

22 that a bit. If you had known that eight members of Mr. Brdjanin's family,

23 including his two brothers, are in mixed marriages and were at the time,

24 do you think it would have been Mr. Brdjanin who would have said that or

25 might it have been Dr. Vukic who made that statement and you'd just gotten

1 confused?

2 A. Well, look, I'd be happiest if Brdjanin, Mr. Brdjanin said whether

3 he spoke about against mixed marriages. But this is what you could hear

4 in Banja Luka, and many inhabitants of Banja Luka can confirm this. But

5 Mr. Vukic also spoke about these mixed marriages. But unfortunately, Mr.

6 Brdjanin also spoke about this. And that's why I've said that it was very

7 strange for him to speak against mixed marriages on television, but he

8 would save Mr. Miskin and Mrs. Miskin's mixed marriage. But yes, Mr. Vukic

9 also spoke about this since you have mentioned him.

10 Q. The next question I want to ask you is about the testimony about

11 Mr. Karadzic criticising you for not properly ethnically cleansing Banja

12 Luka basically. And you said that that happened on more than one

13 occasion.

14 What was the latest occasion in time that you can remember, the

15 month and the year if you can, that you received that kind of criticism?

16 A. I can't remember exactly when this criticism was addressed at me.

17 But it never happened that I would meet either him or one of his

18 associates and when I wouldn't be said that everything that Banja Luka had

19 done was okay except for this problem. There are transcripts which show

20 what the conversations between Mr. Karadzic and Mr. Brdjanin were like in

21 that respect. And I believe that your question is simply out of place,

22 and there's no need to ask me when this was said to me. You must have

23 transcripts. I was told many times how come I was not cleansing the

24 banks, how I was not cleansing other institutions, and they even suggested

25 I should be removed because of that.

1 Q. Well, my question is did this happen after 1992? Did this happen

2 1993? Were you criticised in 1993 for Banja Luka not being properly

3 cleansed?

4 A. Banja Luka was amongst the last towns which was ethnically

5 cleansed. The same went for mosques. And it was an ongoing criticism at

6 my address as the president of the municipal assembly. I was always

7 criticised for doing things very slowly, for not cleansing the banks of

8 people whose names were mentioned. Now, when you're asking me whether

9 this was in 1991, 1993, 1992, it was.

10 Q. All right. You just told us that Banja Luka was one of the last

11 towns that was ethnically cleansed. When was it that most of the non-Serb

12 population that actually decided to leave, when was it that the vast bulk

13 of them left? What year?

14 A. Let me put it this way: It started already at the moment when the

15 Serbs from Western Slavonia on the 15th of December came in huge numbers

16 to Banja Luka. Then they started arriving from Travnik. Others were

17 people who were expelled from Travnik, from Bugojno, from Zenica, from

18 Sarajevo, and so on and so forth. The bulk of the people left in May 1995

19 during the Operation Flash and Storm. That was in August and September

20 when 250.000 Serbs from Banja Lika, Kordon and so on and so forth, started

21 moving towards Banja Luka and via Banja Luka. Even Mr. Samaruga at that

22 point felt the danger and had an agreement signed with Mr. Koljevic about

23 voluntary displacement of the non-Serbian people from this area. He was

24 afraid because these people came very heavily armed. They took all their

25 weapons with them, and they started moving towards Banja Luka and Serbia.

1 Even to this very day, there are very many of them in Banja Luka.

2 Q. You already told us about that today. And I really want you to be

3 able to go home. My real question was when did the bulk of the non-Serb

4 people leave Banja Luka? When did the big bunch? Was it in 1991? Was it

5 in 1995? Was it in 1993? You must know; you were the president of the

6 municipality. When did large numbers of non-Serbs leave Banja Luka? Just

7 give us a year. Don't give me a five-minute answer because you'll be here

8 Monday?

9 A. It may have been 1991, 1993, 1992 when they were losing their

10 jobs, losing their livelihood. But most of them left at the end of the

11 war when the Serbs had been expelled from Slavonia and the Republic of

12 Serbian Krajina as its name was at the time.

13 Q. Earlier today at the beginning of your testimony you were talking,

14 in answer to Ms. Korner's questions, about the decision process in the ARK

15 Crisis Staff. And you indicated that when it came down to it, Mr.

16 Brdjanin always had the last word. My question is, if you only went to

17 one or two meetings of the ARK Crisis Staff, how would you know that

18 Mr. Brdjanin always had the last word? Or do you know? Were you just

19 guessing or do you know?

20 A. If my memory serves me well, I said that I assume that it was

21 Mr. Brdjanin because he presided over the crisis staff. I didn't say

22 explicitly that it was always him.

23 Q. You told the Chamber, I think, on a couple of occasions now since

24 you have been here that Mr. Brdjanin's power, what power he had, came

25 because of his role as a deputy, not from his role as president of the

1 crisis staff. Is that correct?

2 A. Correct.

3 Q. And that that power or that authority that he had as a deputy,

4 would that have given him power to control the army or the police?

5 A. Absolutely not.

6 Q. When you went to -- when you were up in Prijedor after you'd gone

7 to Omarska and you were then in Prijedor, do you recall Mr. Drljaca

8 telling your group that after being criticised about what you'd seen at

9 Omarska, do you recall him saying that "well, the people are there because

10 we're trying to protect them from extremists who otherwise would be

11 attacking them"? Do you recall him giving that kind of an excuse?

12 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I really do object to this. There are

13 leading questions and there are leading questions. But that was just

14 incredible, not to mention that there's no evidence of any of this.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Ackerman, please refer him to chapter and verse.

16 MR. ACKERMAN: I don't know. I don't have a document in that

17 regard, Your Honour. I just am wondering if he remembers Mr. Drljaca

18 saying anything like that. He can either say yes or no.

19 MS. KORNER: No, he can't. It's utterly objectionable.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: I am taking your objection, Ms. Korner. I am

21 suggesting Mr. Ackerman another way out to try and find out from the

22 witness what Mr. Drljaca may have said.

23 Exactly. But I can't tell Mr. Ackerman how to phrase a question.

24 MR. ACKERMAN: I'm going to withdraw the question, Your Honour.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.

1 MR. ACKERMAN:

2 Q. I just have one last thing, Mr. Radic: I appreciate your coming

3 here, and I know you were here much longer than you were told that you

4 would be here, than what you expected. And I think we all appreciate that

5 you have gone through this process with us. I just want to ask you this:

6 When you go back to Banja Luka, if you have any ability whatsoever to find

7 the minutes from the ARK Crisis Staff, if you can find anyone who has

8 them, if you can encourage anyone to locate them, we would desperately

9 like to have them. So can you please try to do that. And with that,

10 that's all I have. Thank you.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Ackerman.

12 [Trial Chamber confers]

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Was that a question, Mr. Ackerman,

14 or -- the secretary who had already testified here, Mr. Blagojevic, should

15 have those minutes. I really don't have them. I don't know where they

16 were kept or whether there were any in the first place. I must tell you

17 that I really doubt whether these minutes ever existed. There were not

18 that many meetings in the first place, and I sincerely doubt that any

19 written documents were kept.

20 However, you should ask Mr. Blagojevic. Of course, if I ever

21 found them, I would send them to you. There's no question about that.

22 MR. ACKERMAN: One last thing. There was a book you wanted to

23 present to the Trial Chamber. I assume you will get that to us. And

24 thank you very much.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I will most certainly do that, to

1 show you that the Serbs were not engaged in any propaganda war using the

2 nine babies who died because of the lack of oxygen. You're going to get

3 the book with all the names of the babies, of their parents. The doctor

4 who authored the book sent it to all the presidents of all the states in

5 the world to show them what was going on during the time when we were cut

6 off. I'm going to do it. Most certainly I am.

7 And if you will allow me, I would like to take the opportunity to

8 say in the presence of the lady from Japan, that Mrs. Sadako Ogata also

9 came to Banja Luka, and we showed that book to her as well when she

10 visited us in Banja Luka.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Now, Mr. Radic, we have a few more minutes before

12 your ordeal is over. We have a few questions. Judge Janu will go first.

13 Thank you. Because we really appreciate -- we join with what Mr. Ackerman

14 said. Being here for five days testifying is an ordeal in itself. So we

15 are thankful ourselves for your presence here and your testimony.

16 Judge Janu, please.

17 Questioned by the Court:

18 JUDGE JANU: Mr. Radic, I would like to take you back to the

19 travel agency Perka. I know you told us that she didn't pay the taxes and

20 other things. But we in this proceeding, we have heard, and it wasn't

21 from the Prosecution side, that she was considered in Banja Luka something

22 like Mother Theresa. Her services were appreciated by Muslims very much.

23 Could you comment on this?

24 A. First of all, I didn't say that she didn't pay taxes. Because we

25 didn't know how much she charged these people, and in any case, people

1 like her did not pay taxes, and we did not want to collect taxes from them

2 because her agency was not a legal establishment.

3 Now, whether the Croats and Muslims were grateful to her, it's

4 entirely their matter. It's up to them. And I also have to say,

5 Your Honour, that there were also those who complained against her, saying

6 that she had taken their money and that she didn't help them. So much

7 about that.

8 JUDGE JANU: Thank you. You said that you yourself, if I

9 understood you well, provided some attempt that the municipality would

10 organise or town would organise this transportation. If I am right, can

11 you tell me the intention was to give these services, this transport

12 freely to the Muslims and Croats?

13 A. Absolutely. Absolutely. This was under control, and the name of

14 the person who did it is well known. He did it until the moment when such

15 unauthorised agencies appeared and transported -- started transporting

16 people. There was another agency in addition to this one. We reported

17 them to the authorities in order to stop their illegal activities, but...

18 JUDGE JANU: So there was a time when Perka and your service were

19 in competition, both functioning?

20 A. How can you have a competition with somebody who did not take

21 money from Muslims or Croats? The only thing they did, they said to them

22 how much the ticket would cost until the border. That was a regular

23 agency who contacted Adalbert Rebic in Croatia and told him that there

24 would be a certain number of people to be transported. And then Adalbert

25 Rebic who was in charge of those matters on behalf of Croatia would

1 receive them. As for this other agency, where was it that they sent these

2 people I don't know. The person who was appointed by the executive

3 council of the municipal assembly did that until the moment those illegal

4 agencies appeared. When they realised that they could make a killing on

5 these people and on those services.

6 JUDGE JANU: Mr. Radic, I just wanted to know if those people had

7 a choice? You said your intention was to give this transportation freely,

8 the municipality offered this, and Perka was charging enormous money. So

9 I wanted to know if those services were both available for the people who

10 wanted to leave. That was all what I was after.

11 And my second, and please answer just very simply: Did you belong

12 to the circle of the people who had free access to Radovan Karadzic? You

13 could call him by the telephone directly? Because we know there are all

14 those lines, preferential lines, with just special groups. So did you

15 belong to those people? And how often did you call him to discuss the

16 problems, if you remember roughly?

17 A. Very rarely, Your Honour. The last time I spoke to him was when

18 it was threatened that the bishop's house and cathedral would be

19 destroyed. And then he blocked both the cathedral and the bishop's

20 residences, and Bishop Komarica is aware of that and the paper represented

21 it, and Mr. Montarisio is also aware of that. It was Mr. Karadzic who

22 gave orders for the whole area to be blocked, to prevent this thing from

23 happening. That's when I called Karadzic.

24 I also called him when a Jewish couple was killed, when an

25 aggravated murder was committed because somebody thought they had money.

1 That's when I called him, and Mr. Ackerman's assistant --

2 JUDGE JANU: I'm sorry to stop you, but I just wanted to know a

3 rough number. We know from the discussion we heard here it was once with

4 Mr. Vukic and Mr. Brdjanin. You said twice, this Jewish couple and

5 another time. So three, four times? Can you estimate? Maybe you cannot.

6 A. Not more than five times altogether. I'm sure of that.

7 JUDGE JANU: Thank you very much.

8 MR. ACKERMAN: Judge, the transcript at page 79 line 22, the

9 transcript reveals that Mr. Radic said "they could make a killing," and

10 I'm told he said: "They could make a living."

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Makes a bit of a difference.

12 Mr. Radic, before we conclude, I noticed that you were not asked,

13 and of course you did not volunteer any remarks on the red combi? Do you

14 remember that there was a red combi in Banja Luka in 1992?

15 A. People from the CSB and the state security will be able to tell

16 you much more about the red combi. This was something that was not

17 discussed in Banja Luka at all. I wish I could have had this red van

18 removed from the streets of Banja Luka. They didn't leave anybody alone,

19 including the Serbs.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: So my question, was it a problem for you as the

21 mayor of Banja Luka at the time?

22 A. A huge problem. But there was nobody that admitted to have

23 anything to do with the red combi. Everybody denied any connection,

24 although they had connections. But Mr. Brdjanin did not have any

25 connections with that red combi. But gentlemen from the CSB and the state

1 security should be able to tell you who was in that red van.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Did you try -- or what did you try as mayor with the

3 power that you had at the time to get rid of this red combi? What did you

4 try at the time?

5 A. I got in contact with the most responsible people from the state

6 security, from the CSB, asking them to take measures in order to eliminate

7 this red van and the people who carried out all these actions. Every time

8 I contacted them, they denied having anything to do with that red van.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. I will not press the matter any further.

10 On behalf of this Trial Chamber, Judge Janu, Judge Taya and

11 myself, and on behalf of the Tribunal as a whole, I wish to thank you for

12 having accepted to come here and give evidence as a Defence witness.

13 I also wish to inform you, to confirm to you, that you will

14 receive any -- all the assistance that you need, you require, to enable

15 you to return home as quickly as possible. We've done our best,

16 Ms. Korner and Mr. Ackerman, to make sure that you could leave before the

17 weekend. So I thank you once more. You'll be escorted now by Madam

18 usher. And our last words to you is we wish you a safe journey back home.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

21 [The witness withdrew]

22 JUDGE AGIUS: So Monday we meet in the morning. The sitting is in

23 the morning.

24 MS. KORNER: Yes, Your Honour, I have one application in relation

25 to this, and that is to make both interviews exhibits. We've gone through

1 so much of them now.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: I think you had already --

3 MS. KORNER: I don't think I have. So if I could, Your Honour,

4 could that be --

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Definitely. There's no point in even discussing it.

6 They need to be.

7 MS. KORNER: Yes, Your Honour, as I say, we have been through so

8 much of it.

9 Could the interview of 2001 become P2705, English A, B/C/S B --

10 whichever way it's done. I don't remember. And the 2002 interview P2706.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. And who is coming first next week?

12 Because I am in a little bit of a confusion. I had a statement --

13 MR. ACKERMAN: Savic is coming first, Your Honour.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.

15 MR. ACKERMAN: We had to switch them because of --

16 JUDGE AGIUS: All right, okay, because we got two statements via

17 email, and one which we found on our desk yesterday. So I have three

18 basically.

19 MR. ACKERMAN: I don't know anything about how one was found on

20 your desk, but we did send a couple by email.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: We have --

22 MR. ACKERMAN: You should have Savic and I think it's Koljevic --

23 JUDGE AGIUS: We found yesterday -- not on our desk, the statement

24 of Witness Number 50.

25 MR. ACKERMAN: That's just a regular disclosure, Your Honour.

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. And what is the plan, to have all these three

2 witnesses next week, or not?

3 MR. ACKERMAN: Just the two.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Just the two that we received by email.

5 MR. ACKERMAN: Yes.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: All right, okay.

7 MR. ACKERMAN: We've only got four days.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: I know that. All right.

9 MR. ACKERMAN: Judging by the way we have been going so far --

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, it depends. They are not as important

11 witnesses or the same calibre as the witness that we had --

12 MR. ACKERMAN: That's for certain.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: So I wish you all a nice weekend. This was a

14 difficult week. And I thank you for your cooperation. Thank you. See

15 you Monday.

16 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.36 p.m.,

17 to be reconvened on Monday, the 10th day of

18 November, 2003, at 9.00 a.m.

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