080908ED

Page 17

1 Monday, 8 September 2008

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.01 a.m.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone.

6 Mr. Registrar, could you please call the case.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. Good morning to

8 everyone in the courtroom. This is case number IT-04-84-R77.4, the

9 Prosecutor versus Astrit Haraqija and Bajrush Morina.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

11 Mr. Morina, can you hear me in a language you understand?

12 THE ACCUSED MORINA: [Interpretation] Yes, I can.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Haraqija, can you hear me --

14 THE ACCUSED HARAQIJA: [Interpretation] Yes --

15 JUDGE ORIE: -- in a language you understand? I think you said

16 yes already before I finished my question, but apparently no problem

17 there.

18 May I have the appearances. Prosecution first.

19 MR. SAXON: Good morning, Your Honours. Daniel Saxon for the

20 Prosecution, together with our case manager, Mr. Crispian Smith.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Saxon.

22 For the Defence, Haraqija Defence first.

23 MR. KHAN: If it please Your Honours, good morning. Karim Khan

24 for the respondent, Astrit Haraqija, assisted by my learned friend pro

25 bono legal assistant Caroline Buisman on my right and on the far right

Page 18

1 legal assistant Gissou Azarnia.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Khan.

3 And for Mr. Morina.

4 MR. DIECKMANN: Good morning, Your Honours. My name is Jens

5 Dieckmann, Defence counsel for Mr. Bajrush Morina, and on the left side

6 IS our legal assistant Ms. Christine Kerll and pro bono assistant

7 Danielle Paten.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. They're all a bit hidden behind screens, but

9 thank you, Mr. Khan. Thank you, Mr. Dieckmann.

10 We are here for the trial today of Mr. Morina and Mr. Haraqija.

11 Mr. Morina is charged with contempt. Mr. Haraqija is charged with

12 contempt and incitement to contempt.

13 Mr. Saxon, and I'm also addressing the Defence, I do understand

14 that you'd like to make a short opening statement, and that the Defence

15 refrains at least at this moment from making an opening statement and

16 it's still open whether an opening statement would be made at the

17 beginning of the Defence case.

18 MR. KHAN: Your Honour, that's quite correct. There won't be an

19 opening statement; however, I did indicate before court that Mr. Haraqija

20 intends to avail himself under Rule 84 bis of making a sworn statement

21 from the dock.

22 JUDGE ORIE: 84 bis, is that a sworn statement?

23 MR. KHAN: Your Honour, the accused can't be compelled, as I

24 understand it, to give a sworn statement, but it's a matter of Your

25 Honours' discretion. The reason, in all candour, of why I am of the mind

Page 19

1 and the accused is minded to give a sworn statement is two-fold.

2 Firstly, it may incrementally increase the weight of what he says because

3 it's sworn and the consequences of perjury. Secondly, we keep open the

4 possibility as I alerted my learned friend for the Prosecution before the

5 weekend that Mr. Haraqija may elect to give evidence in his own defence.

6 Should that be the case, it will be a short matter, but it will save us

7 having to go over all the issues that he mentions in his unsworn

8 statement, and it allows the Prosecution to cross-examine him quite

9 properly on matters that are raised now.

10 So I think it's also a function of -- well, it also has the

11 advantage, in my respectful submission, of some judicial economy. So

12 those are the two reasons why I would urge that the statement be sworn.

13 It won't be very long, Your Honours.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Saxon, what's your position as far as giving a

15 sworn statement under Rule 84 bis?

16 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, the Prosecution has no objection as long

17 as obviously the Prosecution then would have an opportunity to

18 cross-examine the witness.

19 JUDGE ORIE: You would say the short statement under Rule 84 bis

20 would then trigger a right to cross-examine Mr. Haraqija; is that

21 correctly understood?

22 MR. SAXON: Well, because Rule 84 bis, Your Honour, does not

23 require a solemn declaration - but my learned friend is suggesting that

24 we use that procedure now - it seems to me, then, the Prosecution should

25 have the opportunity to test the evidence of the witness.

Page 20

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

2 Now, I do understand you do consider it to be evidence because at

3 the same time, Mr. Khan, I hear you say that Mr. Haraqija may decide to

4 take the stand as a witness in his own case, but that you consider a

5 statement under Rule 84 bis not to trigger the right to cross-examine the

6 accused on his statement?

7 MR. KHAN: Your Honour is quite right that as a matter of

8 construction, 84 bis is an opportunity for an accused to give a statement

9 and there's no right of cross-examination from that. The rule, of

10 course, is permissive in nature in my submission. He can't be compelled

11 to make a sworn statement; but Your Honours in your inherent discretion

12 may allow him to give a sworn statement should he wish to do so.

13 Your Honours, at the end of the proceedings, you will decide

14 after hearing all the evidence what weight, if any, to accord to this

15 unsworn statement, as you will in relation to all the evidence in this

16 case.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

18 MR. KHAN: My simple point is if it is sworn and if the accused

19 does elect to give evidence, it obviates the need to rehash any matters

20 that have been raised by the accused now. If he doesn't elect to give

21 evidence, of course, Your Honours will decide what weight is appropriate

22 at the end of the trial. It was an attempt to be of assistance.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, there is no doubt about that.

24 Mr. Khan, is there any precedent of accused giving sworn

25 statements under Rule 84 bis?

Page 21

1 MR. KHAN: Your Honour, I'm not aware of any. The cases I'm

2 aware of where accused have given statements from the dock, they have

3 been unsworn. Your Honour, I'm in your hands. It's not a matter I'm

4 urging you very strongly one way or the other, but I don't see any harm

5 in the proposal that I put forward; but, of course, I'm in your hands,

6 Your Honour.

7 [Trial Chamber confers]

8 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber has briefly considered the matter. If

9 the accused chooses to make a sworn statement to which he cannot be

10 compelled under Rule 84 bis, then the Chamber rules that the Prosecution

11 is entitled to cross-examine the witness on that statement.

12 The Chamber does appreciate that you have tried to assist us in

13 judicial economy, Mr. Khan. It's not without reason that I ask you

14 whether there was any precedent because I was not aware of it. So it's

15 new territory, so to say, but this is the ruling of the Chamber.

16 If Mr. Haraqija chooses to give the solemn declaration at the

17 beginning of his statement, then the Prosecution will have an opportunity

18 to cross-examine him, still to be considered at what time exactly because

19 that raises another matter; that is, whether or not an accused taking the

20 stand should be examined first as what I understand is at least a

21 tradition in English law, not in all the systems, but at least in English

22 law.

23 MR. KHAN: Your Honour, I'm most grateful. I didn't intend at

24 all to complicate matters. I think the simplest thing in that case is

25 the accused can be invited to give an unsworn statement from the dock.

Page 22

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

2 MR. KHAN: If I call the accused, I will indicate now and I did

3 indicate to my learned friend as well; and, indeed, it was the

4 Prosecution's suggestion to which I readily agreed that he will be my

5 first witness before I call any other witnesses in the Defence case.

6 And, of course, it's open to the Prosecution even without the evidence

7 being under oath that they have leave, with Your Honour's consent of

8 course, to cross-examine on any matters, including anything he may say in

9 the dock at the moment.

10 So, Your Honours, perhaps he can be invited in due course to give

11 an unsworn statement from the dock; it may be simpler.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

13 Having settled this matter, Mr. Saxon, are you ready to give

14 your, as I understand, brief opening statement?

15 MR. SAXON: I hope it will be brief, Your Honours. Just one

16 question, the Prosecution has two, hopefully, brief administrative

17 matters to raise. Would the Chamber like me to raise them before my

18 opening statement or after?

19 JUDGE ORIE: If they affect the opening statement, you're invited

20 to do it before the opening statement; if not, let's start with the

21 opening statement so that at least we know what your case is.

22 MR. SAXON: Then I will proceed with the opening statement, Your

23 Honour.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

25 MR. SAXON: Your Honours, this case is about a deliberate and

Page 27

1 it has. So it could - of course, I do not know what the content is - it

2 could be used against or, of course, in favour of you. Could you tell us

3 approximately how much time you would need for this statement?

4 THE ACCUSED HARAQIJA: [Interpretation] I would say ten minutes

5 max.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then you may proceed, Mr. Haraqija.

7 THE ACCUSED HARAQIJA: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I must admit

8 that I'm quite offended to be here on the desk of the accused. A good

9 name to be blemished by an international indictment and to face an

10 accusation. I cannot call it anything else but a trauma experience.

11 This is the situation I find myself in today.

12 The Kosovar society is complex and has many nuances. I will not

13 go into details, but I find myself divided into two. I'm in the fight

14 against the accusations of the Prosecution which is not true, and nothing

15 will change that reality. My wife was a witness and she was present when

16 I was accused of crimes against the Tribunal. There was no such

17 discussion on my part as the Prosecution says.

18 May I continue?

19 JUDGE ORIE: [Microphone not activated]

20 My microphone is switched on, but now you hear me again.

21 If I may give you some guidance. Your plea of not guilty is on

22 the record so that your challenge the charges brought against you is

23 clear and doesn't need any repetition at this moment. At the same time,

24 until now we have not heard things that are assisting the Chamber and are

25 very pertinent to this trial. So if you please focus on matters

Page 28

1 pertinent and relevant for us to hear at this moment, that would be

2 appreciated.

3 Please proceed.

4 THE ACCUSED HARAQIJA: [Interpretation] Your Honours, my lawyer

5 advised me to tell you a word or two about myself. As you know, my name

6 is Astrit Haraqija, born in 1972, 14th June, in Gjakova municipality with

7 an Asian tradition. I got married after the war, the 1999 war. I have

8 two children, an 8-year-old boy Klesta, and a daughter who will be four

9 years old in five days.

10 In 1994, I started -- I involved myself in policy -- in politics,

11 sorry. After six months, I was nominated as the leader of the Democratic

12 Legal Alliance branch in Gjakova. I started my activities as the leader

13 of the youth organization, the only one functioning in the Gjakova

14 municipality at the time, because all the students and teachers were

15 expelled from schools. It was mainly our organization led by me that

16 dealt with the cultural and sport activities and organized this life in

17 the Gjakova municipality, trying to support the Albanian population at

18 the time when the Serb services started to threaten the activists of

19 human rights in Kosova.

20 During this occupation I, as I said, dealt with the youth forum

21 and dealt with cultural and sports activities till 1999. In 1997, I had

22 my initial contacts with the KLA, in the end of this year. From this

23 time on, I had mainly contacts concerning food and clothes. In 1998, in

24 November, I was proclaimed terrorist by the Serb authorities. From this

25 moment on, I lived in illegality; and until the war ended, I stayed in

Page 29

1 the mountains together with other people who had links with the KLA.

2 Gjakova was liberated on the 14th June 1999, which coincides with

3 my birthday. Afterwards, I started to deal with the organization of the

4 institutional life in the municipality of Gjakova. I opened the office

5 of the LDK in Gjakova, the branch in Gjakova; and the following day, we

6 organized a press conference by Edita Tahiri, Lutfi Havazi, Haliz Gagica.

7 In this press conference, it was said that the LDK exists and that the

8 president is alive and feeling well, and that he would be coming back to

9 Kosova soon.

10 Soon afterwards, I became the opposition of the local

11 self-government in our municipality. The headquarters had nominated this

12 authority; and at the same time, they requested me to become the mayor of

13 the Gjakova municipality. I refused this post because I did not support

14 the standpoints of the KLA at that time.

15 For the first time, I met with the now late-President Rugova in

16 1994 who was the chairman of the LDK in Kosova. Until 1999, I mainly

17 dealt with Fehmi Agani, Bardhyl Caushi, both of them late, and the

18 president of the branch, Mr. Shehu.

19 After the NATO air campaign in 1999, I began my direct contacts

20 with the late-President Rugova, since a small number of people continued

21 to support the ideas of Rugova even in 1999. I became very close with

22 Mr. Rugova and I liked his ideas; I found them phenomenal and I defended

23 them. He had a very great influence in my life, and he was an

24 inspiration for me. He continues to inspire me.

25 JUDGE ORIE: I asked you to have a pause because the French

Page 30

1 translation was a bit behind.

2 You may proceed.

3 THE ACCUSED HARAQIJA: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

4 As I said, he deeply influenced my life, my existence, and he

5 inspired me. He continues to inspire me even from his grave. He's an

6 individual who didn't talk much, who would never tell someone to shut up

7 or order someone to leave his office. In general, he was very calm and

8 peaceful person, although he grew up only with his mother, without with

9 his father who had been killed by the Serb authorities, both his father

10 and his grandfather.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Haraqija, it seems that you're now going into

12 details on matters which are not of primary relevance for the case.

13 Please proceed.

14 Mr. Khan.

15 MR. KHAN: Your Honour, with your leave, I hear what Your

16 Honour's saying; and, of course, the accused, in my respectful

17 submission -- the respondent, in my respectful submission, has indicated

18 he'll be rather brief. He's going to be ten or 15 minutes at most. The

19 matters, again in my respectful submission, are relevant. He's talking

20 about his relationship with the LDK, and the Prosecution have made it

21 very clear in their pre-trial brief that they ascribe a motive to my

22 client, to Haradinaj, who's, of course, of a completely different party.

23 So the links to the LDK and the lack of evidence and the lack of

24 a link to the AAK goes to one of the relevant issues in my case. Your

25 Honour, the other matters, of course, regarding his functions in Kosovo

Page 31

1 are generally relevant to propensity and sentence.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Khan, I stopped the witness when he started to

3 go into the details about the personality of a person he said inspired

4 him politically, and that is why I intervened.

5 Please proceed, Mr. Haraqija, and please keep in mind what I just

6 said.

7 THE ACCUSED HARAQIJA: [Interpretation] Your Honours, my ties were

8 with Mr. Rugova since I was given the right upon counselling my lawyer to

9 speak about Astrit Haraqija; but if you decide the opposite, I can stop

10 now. There's no problem.

11 JUDGE ORIE: I'm not saying that you have to stop. Of course, if

12 you give us an impression of your person by explaining what you did,

13 you're free to do so; but when you started telling us about the qualities

14 and the personality of Mr. Rugova, I considered that to be not relevant

15 for this case. Of course, your political orientation and affiliation has

16 some relevance for this case; but please, without going into details,

17 tell about yourself and not about the people who primarily inspired you

18 in political terms.

19 Please proceed.

20 THE ACCUSED HARAQIJA: [Interpretation] All right.

21 I would again stress that I'm happy to be -- to have been at the

22 service of Mr. Rugova, and thanks to him now we have freedom in Kosova

23 and in our state.

24 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter didn't hear the year.

25 THE ACCUSED HARAQIJA: [Interpretation] In cooperation with the

Page 32

1 organization, Elita, functioning in Gjakova municipality, we opened this

2 call for the minorities for the Roma, Ashkali, and the Egyptian minority,

3 because at the time the situation was not very good. And in very

4 difficult economic situation, people refused to go to school. The school

5 founded by us offered a six-month curricula for the minority children

6 before they started going to public schools.

7 At the same year, the local elections were held. The LDK won --

8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Haraqija, the interpreters, a few lines ago, did

9 not hear in which year this took place; and since you now say "at the

10 same year," could you please repeat what year you have in mind.

11 THE ACCUSED HARAQIJA: [Interpretation] In 1999, we opened the

12 offices of the LDK in Gjakova and in Pristina, so I refer to the same

13 year when we opened the minority school.

14 In 2000, the local elections were held and the LDK of Kosova won

15 the elections at all levels, in all municipalities. The LDK, after the

16 victory, proposed me to take up the office of the director for youth,

17 culture, and sports in the municipality of Gjakova. I refused this offer

18 because my aim, primary aim, was for the LDK to win the election, both

19 the LDK and President Rugova. I had no other ambition or aim in mind.

20 This was my only mission, to defend the president and his ideas and the

21 ideas of the LDK party.

22 I continued to work in this respect because at the time different

23 individuals took us for collaborators with the authorities, Serb

24 authorities, in Belgrade. Since I was a close person and very familiar

25 with the ideas of President Rugova, it was my duty to explain to the

Page 33

1 inhabitants of Gjakova Municipality, over 50.000 - and we know each other

2 very well - I felt it was my duty to explain to them that the allegations

3 against Rugova and the LDK were not true.

4 In 2003, I took up the duty of the president of the local

5 self-government of Gjakova. This job was not very ordinary because the

6 communist tradition that dominated for 50 years was still there. It

7 wasn't usual for a young man wearing an earring to be the chairman of

8 this body and to be the representative of the system; but on the other

9 side, my name was known to all Gjakova public opinion because it had been

10 there for the last nine years.

11 During the 21 months of me being on this post, I made investments

12 in Gjakova municipality above 22 million euros - and the budget was only

13 800 million -- 800.000 euros - thanks to the cooperation with the Italian

14 KFOR in Gjakova who helped us with the infrastructure, the US aid, the

15 American US aid, and the English organization as well as other

16 organizations, NGOs from Sweden and Italy.

17 In addition to the investments that I procured at that time, the

18 UNMIK had put a condition for all these standards to be fulfilled. There

19 was six standards, and I was supposed to report every six months --

20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Haraqija, you've used until now 15 minutes.

21 You're going into details about the financing of your work, which does

22 not assist the Chamber.

23 Mr. Khan.

24 MR. KHAN: Your Honour, I'm most grateful. I know Your Honour is

25 trying to be helpful. Of course, Mr. Haraqija is not a lawyer, but it's

Page 34

1 quite clear what he's trying to do is to show the investments he made and

2 the assistance he gave to minorities in his municipality. That is, in my

3 respectful submission, quite clearly relevant. There's no separate

4 sentencing stage in the event that you are not -- in the event that

5 you're persuaded by the Prosecution's case.

6 Your Honour, the other aspect is, I do think his time spent may

7 not have been perfect. It's a skill, of course, to know to be able

8 assess reasonable time. But I do think we will finish this case

9 tomorrow, including the Defence case and closing speeches. So I would

10 ask Your Honours to be a little bit indulgent with the accused and allow

11 him to carry on.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Haraqija, of course, has held positions which

13 allow him to understand and to, I would say, control speeches. I stopped

14 him again here when he went into details which are not assisting the

15 Chamber. I did not want to stop him on the subject necessarily but on

16 the details, especially where he indicated that he would need ten minutes

17 and where until now he has used 15 minutes.

18 Mr. Haraqija, would you please proceed and keep this in mind.

19 MR. KHAN: Your Honour, I don't want to belabour the point, and

20 this is a matter perhaps I can raise in closing. I think the only point

21 he was trying, to make to clarify, is he didn't pay all this himself, he

22 didn't do it himself. He did it with the assistance of the international

23 community. He was simply facilitating in whatever role he had; but, of

24 course, it's the international community that takes a great deal of

25 credit for this rebuilding.

Page 35

1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Haraqija, anything else you would like to add

2 where Mr. Khan has -- well, has interpreted what you intended to say? Is

3 there anything else?

4 THE ACCUSED HARAQIJA: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I sincerely

5 apologise. I respect the interpreters, and due to the interpretation I

6 try to speak in short. I know that the points I've outlined require more

7 than ten or 15 minutes; but if you deem that I should stop here, then I

8 will stop, Your Honours.

9 JUDGE ORIE: I didn't say that. Again, I suggested that you take

10 the next two minutes to conclude your unsworn statement, so if you'd use

11 those two minutes to tell us what you find most relevant.

12 Please proceed.

13 THE ACCUSED HARAQIJA: [Interpretation] Thank you.

14 I mentioned the pre-status standards, six standards, and for the

15 sole reason because these standards included freedom of movement,

16 security, the Kosova Protection Corps, and so on and so forth. With the

17 cooperation with the general at the time, we drafted the plan, we visited

18 the camps. We invited them to come and visit us to see how the situation

19 was in our municipality, to visit these minorities and to see that the

20 security was at a high level, and they could come back to live in

21 Gjakova. We had the same contacts with the Serb minority. As the

22 chairman of the government, we worked and made efforts for these refugees

23 to come back.

24 In 2004, there was a central government in Kosova. As member of

25 the leadership of the LDK, I did not agree with this idea for all the

Page 36

1 parties to lead Kosova because someone had to take up the responsibility,

2 and my idea was for opposition and position. So with President Rugova

3 and Fatmir Rexhepi, we persuaded the government for this idea. All the

4 local offices opposed this idea because they wanted to have their

5 representatives in the authorities. Why we did this? As I said, for

6 someone to be held responsible. At that time, our idea won; and after

7 that, I was offered the post of the minister of transport, and then I did

8 not offer this -- I did not accept this post.

9 Later on, I accepted the post of the minister of culture, sport,

10 and youth. Why? In 2004, in Kosova there was a very difficult situation

11 in Kosova as far as cultural heritage was concerned.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Haraqija, I invited you to focus on matters most

13 relevant for this Chamber, and I gave you two more minutes. You've taken

14 now four, 30 seconds to --

15 MR. KHAN: I --

16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Khan, as the Rules say, and as I explained to

17 Mr. Haraqija, the statement is given under the control of the Chamber.

18 I'm exercising this control at this moment --

19 MR. KHAN: Of course.

20 JUDGE ORIE: -- and not starting a major debate on everything I

21 say.

22 MR. KHAN: No, of course. Your Honour, it is a matter for you

23 and your colleagues, and it's a matter of discretion. Simply, I want to

24 say a few words which I hope will assist you in exercising that

25 discretion.

Page 37

1 Your Honour, it is not needed, in my respectful submission, to

2 guillotine these proceedings. The whole week has been set aside. The

3 matters are relevant in our submission. We will be finished, including

4 the Defence case, by tomorrow. The accused has said he is a young man.

5 I know Your Honour has indicated he's an experience public speaker, but

6 his own words are that this is a nerve-racking experience to be hauled

7 from Kosovo to an international courts, and I would ask that a bit of

8 compassion and understanding are shown.

9 These are relevant matters. He is talking about his appointment,

10 just now, to the minister of culture. It is in that capacity that the

11 Prosecution bring this case in very large measure. So I would ask Your

12 Honours to be a little bit more understanding for the accused. Your

13 Honours, if you think otherwise, of course I will say no more.

14 [Trial Chamber confers]

15 JUDGE ORIE: Unanimously, the Chamber considers that the subject

16 of this statement under Rule 84 bis is such that no further time should

17 be given to Mr. Haraqija to continue.

18 Mr. Khan, of course, if there are matters which you consider of

19 such importance, of course, you can call Mr. Haraqija to the stand to put

20 further questions to him in relation to his --

21 MR. KHAN: I'm grateful.

22 JUDGE ORIE: -- political background and his career.

23 Thank you, Mr. Haraqija.

24 Mr. Dieckmann, have I properly understood that Mr. Morina is not

25 seeking to make a statement under Rule 84 bis?

Page 44

1 JUDGE ORIE: Witness 1, you'll now be examined by Mr. Saxon,

2 who's counsel for the Prosecution.

3 Please proceed, Mr. Saxon.

4 WITNESS: WITNESS 1

5 Examination by Mr. Saxon:

6 Q. Good morning, Witness 1.

7 A. Good morning.

8 Q. I also understand that sometimes your hearing is not absolutely

9 perfect, so if you do not completely hear a question that you are asked,

10 please tell me, or if the volume needs to be turned up for your

11 headphones, please inform me, and we will take care of that. All right?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. One reminder, please, I'd like to ask you during your testimony

14 not to refer to the country where you live and work, and not to refer and

15 not to refer to the city where you live and work. Can we agree on that?

16 A. Yes, I will try my best on that.

17 Q. The other thing I would like to ask you, you and I are now

18 speaking the same language. We're speaking to each other in English.

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And we need to be careful to assist the interpreters that each

21 person that we don't begin to speak until the other person has stopped

22 speaking; and if you could, perhaps try to pause for a moment between

23 sentences to give the interpreters a minute to -- a moment to catch up.

24 Can we agree on that?

25 A. Yes.

Page 45

1 Q. Sir, officially, you are still a member of the police in your

2 country?

3 A. Correct.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Saxon, would it not be wise, at least in

5 whatever way not known to the public, to establish the identity of the

6 witness, either by a pseudonym sheet or by going into private session;

7 otherwise, we would not know who Witness 1 is.

8 MR. SAXON: Completely my oversight, Your Honour. Yes. We have

9 a pseudonym sheet prepared; and if this could be provided to the usher to

10 give to the witness, I would be grateful.

11 Q. Witness 1, is that your true name on that sheet of paper in front

12 of you?

13 A. Yes, it is.

14 Q. And is the date of birth correct?

15 A. Yes, it is.

16 Q. Thank you very much.

17 MR. SAXON: And, Your Honour, perhaps the pseudonym sheet could

18 become part of the record in this case.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Usually, exhibit numbers are assigned to it.

20 Mr. Registrar, that would be?

21 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

22 JUDGE ORIE: Does the Defence wish to have a look at the

23 pseudonym sheet?

24 MR. KHAN: Your Honour, I'm fully willing to accept that it's the

25 correct name.

Page 46

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

2 Same for you, Mr. Dieckmann?

3 MR. DIECKMANN: I join, yes. Thank you very much, Your Honour.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar, this would be exhibit number?

5 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this becomes Exhibit Number P1,

6 under seal.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I take it that there are also no objections

8 against P1; therefore, P1 is admitted into evidence under seal.

9 Please proceed, Mr. Saxon.

10 MR. SAXON:

11 Q. Witness 1, when did you begin your career as a police officer?

12 A. In 1968.

13 Q. And in July of 2007, last year, what position did you hold?

14 A. I was detective superintendent and a head of the witness

15 protection unit for the western part of the country.

16 Q. And was the protected witness in this case one of the persons

17 under the responsibility of your unit?

18 A. Yes, he was.

19 Q. Witness 1, in early July of 2007, was the protected witness

20 scheduled to travel somewhere?

21 A. Yes, he was.

22 Q. And did you drive the witness to the airport?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. During the drive to the airport, what, if anything, did the

25 protected witness inform you about?

Page 47

1 A. Yes. He informed me that he received telephone contact and

2 communication by SMS as well as regular phone call from a person he'd

3 known as a journalist.

4 Q. Did the protected witness tell you the name of the journalist?

5 A. Yes, he did.

6 Q. What was that name?

7 A. It's sort of Morina or something like that. I'm not sure about

8 the pronouncement.

9 Q. All right. And did the protected witness inform you of the

10 nature of these telephone communications?

11 A. Yes, he did.

12 Q. Very briefly, can you describe what the protected witness told

13 you at that time.

14 A. He told me that this journalist would like to have a meeting with

15 the protected witness; and the day after this meeting, he suggest that

16 also -- or he told me that minister of culture as well would attend to

17 this meeting.

18 Q. Okay. Did the protected witness inform you why Mr. Morina and

19 the minister of culture wanted to meet with him?

20 A. Yes, because I asked the protected witness why, what was this

21 conversation all about, since my responsibility was his safety and his

22 appearance here in the court. So I was curious and a little bit

23 suspicious about this call, and I asked the protected witness to get back

24 to the journalist and ask him what this meeting was all about.

25 Q. Before we go further, there's a question I forgot to ask you.

Page 48

1 Were there any particular questions, according to the protected witness,

2 that Mr. Morina asked that caused you some concern?

3 A. Yes. He let the protected witness -- the journalist let the

4 protected witness know that he knows that he's supposed to go down to the

5 Tribunal in The Hague to take the stand as a witness.

6 Q. The Tribunal in The Hague?

7 A. Yes, the Tribunal.

8 Q. All right.

9 A. And that makes me worry because no one should know that we are on

10 our way down here.

11 Q. All right. If we can turn now to a question I asked you

12 previously, did the protected witness explain why Mr. Morina and the

13 minister wanted to meet with the protected witness?

14 A. No, because the journalist won't talk about the real purpose over

15 the phone, and that made me more suspicious about this meeting.

16 Q. Witness 1, did the protected witness tell you whether he wanted

17 to meet with Mr. Morina and the minister?

18 A. Yes. He was curious about what they want him, and he really

19 likes this meeting to happen.

20 Q. Did he tell you why he was curious?

21 A. No -- yes. He said, "I don't know what they really want and I'm

22 anxious to hear about it."

23 Q. Okay. Witness 1, what concerns, if any, did you have about such

24 a meeting taking place?

25 A. I don't like it because my responsibility was to see that the

Page 49

1 protected witness really fulfilled his duty and come here to the Tribunal

2 and take the witness-stand. That's the first responsibility. The other

3 one was for his and his family's security before and after this stand.

4 Q. And so -- all right. Did you discuss the situation with your

5 superior?

6 A. Yes, because --

7 Q. With whom did you discuss this?

8 A. The chief constable, who is my chief, and I tell him I don't like

9 this meeting because if there is legitimate reasons, they could tell it

10 on the phone. But since they don't mention what it is all about, I get

11 suspicious that they try to provide or even buy [Realtime transcript read

12 in error "by"] this witness silence; otherwise, they could have tell him

13 what it's all about.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Saxon, you took a risk by asking the witness

15 with whom did you discuss, instead of what was the position of the person

16 you discussed it with. Well, nothing happened, but I'm just trying to

17 keep you as sharp as possible on the matter.

18 Please proceed.

19 MR. SAXON: And I'm very grateful for that, Your Honour. The

20 point is well taken.

21 Just to note for the record, at page 32, line 13, the word by is

22 spelled b-y and it should be spelled b-u-y.

23 Q. And how did the chief constable react to the idea of this

24 meeting?

25 A. He didn't like it at all. He said the police force will

Page 50

1 not - what do you call? - be at -- let this witness have a meeting who

2 could stop him from going to the Tribunal in Hague. So he said at the

3 first no.

4 Q. Okay. And after you spoke first with the chief constable and

5 received his opinion, did you tell the protected witness how the chief

6 constable felt about this matter?

7 A. Yes. I told him the decision and I told him also that the police

8 cannot allow this meeting to happen because it can interfere with his

9 mission down here. And he was not -- he's not taking this message well

10 because he said, "I certainly like to have this meeting. And if I

11 don't -- can have this meeting, I will not appear in The Hague Tribunal."

12 Q. And when you say, "I will not appear in The Hague Tribunal," the

13 witness was saying, I will not testify; is that correct?

14 A. Oh, that's correct, that's correct. Sorry.

15 Q. And when you received this reaction from the protected witness,

16 did you convey that to the chief constable?

17 A. Yes, I get back to him and said, "We have a big problem here

18 because I can't fulfil my responsibility." And chief constable said,

19 "The only way the police can allow this meeting is that we had to be

20 there, and certainly the Prosecutions -- Prosecutors in Hague had to

21 write a letter saying that we will assist them; otherwise, we don't do

22 it."

23 Q. Okay. Let's go a little bit more slowly. When you say the chief

24 constable said, "The only way the police can allow this meeting is that

25 we had to be there," what do you mean by that?

Page 51

1 A. We had to monitoring this meeting; we have to get totally control

2 of the area, the surveillance team; we have to film it as well.

3 Q. Did you have to record it?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And then you mentioned something about what the chief constable

6 wanted from the Prosecutors in The Hague. Can you describe that again.

7 A. Yes, because that was the only way that he could let this meeting

8 happen. The Prosecutor had to write a letter to the chief constable

9 saying that they like this meeting to happen and they will have the

10 police assistance for this meeting.

11 Q. Okay. So, in other words, the chief constable wanted a letter

12 from the Office of the Prosecutor?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Saying that the meeting could take place if it's monitored --

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. -- by the police?

17 A. Yes.

18 MR. KHAN: Your Honour, I would ask all this evidence is in

19 dispute in various regards that my learned friend not lead at all.

20 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, I wasn't really trying to lead. I was

21 trying to make sure that the English transcript comes up -- is as clear

22 as possible because English is not the witness's first language.

23 MR. KHAN: Your Honour, I understand that. Of course, if

24 clarification is needed, perhaps the question can simply be re-put

25 without trying to summarize what the witness has already said.

Page 52

1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Saxon, you're invited not to lead in chief. As

2 guidance, I would like you to follow the suggestion by Mr. Khan. At the

3 same time, I invite Mr. Khan not to be oversensitive. By leading it is

4 often very practical; but, of, course there are some sensitive issues on

5 which you're invited to be very strict on not leading.

6 I leave it to you, Mr. Khan, to make objections only if really

7 need, and you to be very cautious in this respect. Please proceed.

8 MR. SAXON: Thank you, Your Honour.

9 Q. Eventually, did the OTP -- did the Office of the Prosecutor of

10 this Tribunal provide such a written letter to the police?

11 A. Yes, they did.

12 Q. Prior to the initial meeting, what arrangements or precautions,

13 if any, did you and your police colleagues take?

14 A. We have first at the airport personnel that meet the plane who

15 the journalist arrived with. We checked the other passengers on the

16 plane before and that plane and the plane later, to see if there was any

17 connection that we know of. We followed the journalist from the airport

18 to the town. We have the surveillance team, we have the film team, we

19 have a recording team; and I think at least we were about 30 officers at

20 the place totally.

21 Q. Were you coordinating this effort?

22 A. Yes, I was one of the coordinators.

23 Q. Did the protected witness agree that the meeting would be

24 recorded?

25 A. Yes.

Page 53

1 Q. Can you recall, please, when did the first meeting take place?

2 A. I think it was around the 10th of July.

3 Q. And who was expected to appear for that first meeting, if you

4 recall?

5 A. It was the journalist.

6 Q. Do you know if the minister was ever expected to appear?

7 A. Yes, because we had a request from protected witness that we

8 should book a room for the minister the day two.

9 MR. SAXON: And, again, at page 36 -- actually, I should go more

10 slowly.

11 Q. You said "that we should book a room for the minister the day

12 two." What do you mean by "the day two"?

13 A. Oh, for the 11th of July --

14 Q. Okay.

15 A. -- the day after the first meeting.

16 Q. Witness 1, in general terms, where did the first meeting take

17 place?

18 A. In a hotel.

19 Q. Can you describe how the first meeting was monitored?

20 A. Yes. We had some officers around the lobby area in that hotel,

21 we have a film team outside, and we also have put two microphones to the

22 protected witness.

23 Q. What do you mean by putting two microphones to the protected

24 witness? What do you mean by that?

25 A. There was two microphones. I don't know if I had to go into the

Page 54

1 details where we placed microphones because it's kind of an operational

2 secret.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Khan.

4 MR. KHAN: Your Honour, it may assist my learned friend. There's

5 no dispute from the Defence about the surveillance or the recording.

6 There's no dispute. He can just move to the central issues.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Saxon.

8 MR. SAXON: Thank you very much then. I will move along then.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. It's appreciated, Mr. Khan, that you assisted

10 Mr. Saxon.

11 Please proceed.

12 MR. SAXON:

13 Q. Witness 1, when, if ever, did you see the journalist Morina

14 around the time of the first meeting?

15 A. I actually saw him visually as he come through the doors to the

16 hotel.

17 Q. Okay. You mentioned "day two." What happened on day two?

18 A. We changed hotels for the second meeting --

19 Q. Okay.

20 A. -- late that morning, but it's nearby, about 500 metres from the

21 first hotel.

22 Q. Was that the day after the first meeting on the 10th?

23 A. Yes, it was.

24 Q. Okay. And what was your role before and during the second

25 meeting?

Page 55

1 A. My role was the same as on the first meeting, so it was planning

2 and get the surveillance team and monitoring on the right place for the

3 second meeting.

4 Q. Prior to these meetings in July 2007, had you been involved in

5 surveillance and recording conversations before?

6 A. Yes, many times.

7 Q. Was it important that -- let me step back for a minute. And why

8 had you been involved in surveillance and recording conversations many

9 times?

10 A. Because I was the head of the surveillance unit that concerns

11 kidnapping, blackmailing, and such things in serious crime business.

12 Q. All right. Was it important that the protected witness agree to

13 the recording of the meetings?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Why?

16 A. Because when somebody agreed or want his own conversation

17 recorded, that's totally legal in my country, so that's why.

18 Q. All right.

19 MR. SAXON: Your Honours, I see the hour. I was about to turn to

20 an exhibit that might take a few minutes. Would this be the right time

21 to take the first break?

22 JUDGE ORIE: I think it would be preferable to have the break

23 now. But before we take the break could I just, Mr. Khan, verify with

24 you, you said there's no dispute from the Defence about the surveillance

25 or the reporting. What does that include?

Page 56

1 MR. KHAN: Yes, Your Honour, it wasn't very artfully put.

2 There's no dispute that the exhibit that the Prosecution wish to tender

3 and the transcript is -- well, there's no dispute that a video was

4 obtained and a transcript was prepared. So there was no need to go into

5 details about where the microphones were situated or how many people were

6 located in which particular parts of the hotel.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted) That's a separate issue

10 which has been ruled upon.

11 JUDGE ORIE: May I then take it that the exhibit you just

12 referred to, that you accept that these exhibits are the result of the

13 audio-recording, and that of other exhibits are pictures of the meetings

14 that were recorded, and do you take any issue with the content of it?

15 MR. KHAN: Your Honour, no. There's simply one issue that's

16 already been litigated in relation to part of it, and it's really the

17 transcript. It's a separate matter, it doesn't concern this witness,

18 it's made later -- it will be made later. But apart from that, no

19 dispute.

20 JUDGE ORIE: No dispute.

21 Mr. Saxon, is this clear enough for you to know what is not in

22 dispute?

23 MR. SAXON: Yes, it is. Thank you, Your Honour.

24 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

25 JUDGE ORIE: We'll then have a break now, and we'll resume at

Page 57

1 five minutes to 11.00 --

2 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, I'm very, very sorry.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

4 MR. SAXON: My colleague Mr. Smith has just pointed out there may

5 be a need for a redaction, page 39, line 8, and that that should happen I

6 believe before we take the break.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that should be redacted.

8 Mr. Registrar, could you prepare a redaction of page 39, lines 7,

9 8, and 9.

10 MR. SAXON: Thank you, Your Honour.

11 JUDGE ORIE: As a matter of fact, line 8 only the first

12 two-thirds. We can leave the last sentence of the observation made by

13 Mr. Khan.

14 I prefer to finalise it before we have the break and then we'll

15 resume at 11.00.

16 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer].

17 JUDGE ORIE: We'll have a break and resume at 11.00.

18 --- Recess taken at 10.34 a.m.

19 --- On resuming at 11.03 a.m.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Saxon, please proceed.

21 MR. SAXON: Thank you, Your Honour.

22 Q. Witness Number 1, I would like to show you a photograph.

23 MR. SAXON: I'm wondering whether the second exhibit binder could

24 be placed in front of the witness.

25 And, Your Honour, I'm going to ask the witness to look at what is

Page 58

1 Prosecution 65 ter Exhibit Number 29. It should be at tab 29 and will be

2 in your second binder, and I'd ask that this not be published to the

3 public, please.

4 MR. KHAN: And, Your Honour, again, for the -- hopefully to

5 assist, we can agree, as far as the Defence is concerned, that that

6 picture shows the two people mentioned in the Prosecution's 65 ter list.

7 MR. SAXON: I'm very grateful to Mr. Khan, and would Mr. Khan

8 also be willing to make the same agreement for 65 ter number 30 which is

9 another photograph?

10 MR. KHAN: I would.

11 MR. SAXON: Thank you.

12 Your Honour, if that's the case, I don't need to ask the witness

13 about this -- actually, I do, Your Honour. I'm very, very sorry. I do

14 have one question I need to ask.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Please put the question.

16 MR. SAXON:

17 Q. Witness, if you take a look at what is 65 ter 29, this

18 photograph, do you recognise someone in the photograph?

19 A. Yes, I do. The man to the right on the photo is the protected

20 witness.

21 Q. And can you recognise the place?

22 A. Yes. It is in the lobby where the first meeting took place.

23 Q. Thank you.

24 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, I would now seek to tender this exhibit,

25 please --

Page 59

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes --

2 MR. SAXON: -- under seal.

3 JUDGE ORIE: And now you asked these questions only about 29.

4 MR. SAXON: I will ask the same questions for 30 as well.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then, first of all ...

6 [Trial Chamber confers]

7 JUDGE ORIE: Before we move any further, Judge Moloto has one

8 further question.

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Witness 1, are you able to say who the person to

10 the left is?

11 THE WITNESS: No, not on this photo, no, I can't.

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Dieckmann, you were on your feet.

14 MR. DIECKMANN: Just for the record, I would like to say that the

15 Defence for Bajrush Morina join the submissions of the Defence of Astrit

16 Haraqija.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for that.

18 Then, Mr. Registrar, 65 ter number 29 was, although declared not

19 admissible, is not yet in evidence.

20 So, therefore, Mr. Registrar, 65 ter 29 would be?

21 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit number P2, under seal, Your Honours.

22 JUDGE ORIE: P2 under seal. And from the previous comments, I

23 take it there are no objections -- any further objections, because the

24 whole of the recording, of course, was part of an objection once.

25 P2 is admitted into evidence under seal.

Page 60

1 Mr. Saxon.

2 MR. SAXON:

3 Q. Witness 1, if you could turn to the next exhibit, please, the

4 next tab.

5 MR. SAXON: Your Honours, this is 65 ter number 30.

6 THE WITNESS: Yes.

7 MR. SAXON:

8 Q. And are you able to recognise the place in this photograph?

9 A. Yes, I am. It's the hotel lobby for the second meeting.

10 Q. Are you able to recognise any of the persons in the photograph?

11 A. No, not really, because there's no good quality on the clearness,

12 so I can't.

13 Q. You say there's no good quality on the clearness. What are you

14 referring to?

15 A. It is so much grey in this photo, it's difficult to hundred per

16 cent said something about --

17 Q. Okay.

18 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, at this time, I would seek to tender

19 into evidence 65 ter number 30.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Under seal, as well, I take it?

21 MR. SAXON: Under seal, please, Your Honour.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The same is true for this, exhibit on the 65

23 ter list, earlier declared to be not inadmissible.

24 Mr. Registrar, that would be?

25 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this becomes Exhibit P3, under

Page 61

1 seal.

2 JUDGE ORIE: P3 is admitted under seal.

3 Please proceed.

4 MR. SAXON:

5 Q. Witness 1, prior to the first meeting between the protected

6 witness and the journalist Morina, what, if anything, did the protected

7 witness say about SMS telephone messages?

8 A. For the most telephone or SMS the protected witness received, he

9 immediately tells or show us on the phone, and there was quite a lot of

10 traffic.

11 Q. And did the witness tell you or show you who sent those messages?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Who was that?

14 A. It's from the journalist.

15 Q. Okay. And did you become aware of the content of one or more of

16 those messages?

17 A. Yes. There was especially one I remember because the protected

18 witness said that he had to book a room for the 11th for the minister of

19 culture, and he would like a hotel with a high standard.

20 Q. Okay.

21 A. And there was also some sort of -- that the minister really would

22 come because I have some suspicion about these arrivals.

23 Q. Can you clarify what you just said.

24 A. Yes. It was kind of confirmed -- he confirmed that the minister

25 really should come day two, because --

Page 62

1 Q. Okay --

2 A. -- he asked especially for some quality of the hotel.

3 Q. Okay. In such cases, Witness 1, what procedure, if any, would

4 police in your country carry out to preserve such SMS messages?

5 A. Well, we emptied normally the phone to save both the SMS and the

6 telephone traffic.

7 Q. Can you be a little bit more specific. What do you mean when you

8 say we "emptied" the phone?

9 A. We have a kind of operation box that we put on the phone, and we

10 take it out.

11 Q. What then comes out of this box?

12 A. What comes is time, when it was sent, and when it was received,

13 or what kind of number if possible, who sent them, and the text on the

14 SMS as well.

15 Q. Okay.

16 MR. SAXON: If the witness could be provided with binder

17 number 1, I would be very grateful. And if we could turn, please, to

18 what is Prosecution 65 ter number 12.

19 THE INTERPRETER: May the witness's microphone be adjusted so

20 that he speaks into the microphone, please.

21 MR. SAXON: Actually, before we turn to tab 12, Mr. Usher, can

22 you just wait a minute. Please, just wait a minute.

23 Q. You mentioned the procedure that the police would carry out to

24 preserve SMS messages. Was this procedure followed in this case?

25 A. Yes, as I recall, yes.

Page 63

1 Q. Was a copy of the SMS messages given to the Office of the

2 Prosecutor of this Tribunal?

3 A. As I recall, yes.

4 Q. Okay.

5 MR. SAXON: If we could turn now to Exhibit Number 12, it should

6 be tab 12 in that binder.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Saxon, very practically, exhibits on this list 7

8 up to and including 23 have been admitted as attachments to a 92 ter

9 statement already. They have, however, not been provided yet with

10 assigned numbers, exhibit numbers.

11 Mr. Registrar, how to proceed? Could you assign ...

12 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

13 JUDGE ORIE: I suggest the following. Since we're now dealing

14 with 65 ter number 12, that Mr. Registrar assigns a number to it; and to

15 the extent that you will deal with certain exhibits that are already

16 admitted, that immediately Mr. Registrar assigns a number to them. And

17 those exhibits not further dealt with in court, that Mr. Registrar makes

18 an internal memorandum assigning numbers to them, so that, finally, we

19 know where they are on our exhibit list.

20 MR. SAXON: Thank you, Your Honour.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.

22 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 65 ter number 12 becomes Exhibit

23 Number P4, also under seal.

24 JUDGE ORIE: P4 under seal. It was admitted already so it's just

25 an administrative exercise now to assign a number to it. P4 under seal.

Page 64

1 Please proceed.

2 MR. SAXON:

3 Q. Witness 1, could you take a moment, please, read through the

4 English text, these messages, and tell us if any of these messages -- if

5 the contents of any of these messages are familiar to you.

6 A. Many of those was more of a grey thing -- sort, as they have a

7 family aspect, but there is 39.

8 Q. Can we stop there for a moment?

9 A. Yeah.

10 Q. Number 39 comes from the telephone 37744506183?

11 A. Yeah.

12 Q. It says: "Hello my friend! Can you make a hotel reservation for

13 me for the 10th and 11th and for the minister only for the 11th of July?"

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And the date is the 7th. It appears to be -- appears to be the

16 6th of July, then, of 2007?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. What do you recall about this message? Why do you recall it?

19 A. I recall it because it confirms that the minister really should

20 come, and also I see under 36 there is this same kind of thing I also

21 have been told about and I recall it well.

22 Q. And after 39, any other messages?

23 A. Yes, 42, it was kind of confirmed as well.

24 Q. For the record, number 42 says, from the same telephone number as

25 before: "One a while ago together. See you there on 10 July." And it

Page 65

1 appears to be from the 2nd of July.

2 Can you turn the page. Are there any other messages that you're

3 familiar with?

4 A. Yes, 43, and that is what I told you before, that the quality of

5 hotel for the minister was an issue.

6 Q. And for the record, message 43, from the same telephone number,

7 from the 7th of July, 2007, says: "We'll talk on the phone on Monday, or

8 you make a reservation today. Bear in mind, though, that this Haraqija

9 is 'choosey' and wouldn't just accept to stay at any hotel. E-mail the

10 hotel address to me."

11 MR. SAXON: And now that binder can be removed -- actually --

12 yes, that binder can be removed, please.

13 Then if the second binder could be given back to the witness, and

14 if the witness could turn, please, to tab 24H.

15 Your Honours, this will be Prosecution 65 ter 24H.

16 And, actually, Mr. Usher, I'm going to need your assistance for a

17 moment or two with the witness.

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 A. Yeah.

22 Q. -- number 2005/06: 178, and entitled --

23 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, I have misspoken. At page 48, line 20,

24 there is --

25 JUDGE ORIE: To be redacted.

Page 66

1 MR. SAXON: Thank you.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.

3 MR. SAXON:

4 Q. And this is entitled: "Secret wire-tapping of rooms," and it

5 says that: "The Government is handing over this proposition to the

6 Parliament ... on the 16th of March, 2006 ..."

7 Are you following me?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And it's from the justice department of your country. And now if

10 the usher could help you, and if you could turn, please, to what is page

11 48 in your language. The page numbers are pretty small, they're up on

12 the right-hand side.

13 MR. SAXON: And this should not be published to the public. It

14 has ERN number 06360579.

15 THE WITNESS: Yes.

16 MR. SAXON:

17 Q. And if you could, please, Witness 1, skim down the page a little

18 bit, and you'll see in the middle of the page, in your version, you'll

19 see a sentence beginning with the words: "Here, the notion ..." or

20 "Here, the idea ..."

21 Do you see that?

22 A. No.

23 Q. With the usher's assistance, I believe I can show you where

24 it is.

25 MR. SAXON: Mr. Usher, will you take that to him?

Page 67

1 THE WITNESS: Yeah, yeah.

2 MR. SAXON:

3 Q. All right. I'm going to read that sentence and a couple more

4 sentences to you in English.

5 A. Yeah.

6 Q. It says: "Here, the notion 'in secret' means that all people

7 participating in the conversation are unaware of the room being

8 wire-tapped. Should one of the participants be aware of the room being

9 wire-tapped, then it is not a question of secret wire-tapping of rooms,

10 but some other measure for which there is admittedly no explicit support

11 in law but that is not punishable (either) according to chapter 4,

12 section 9a in the Criminal Code."

13 Have you been following me?

14 A. Yes, I have.

15 Q. Earlier today, page 38, lines 16 to 17, you told the Chamber that

16 it's legal in your country to record conversations between two parties if

17 one party agrees to the recording. Do you remember that?

18 A. Yes, I do.

19 Q. My question for you is: Is the concept expressed here in this

20 proposition consistent with how the police in your country carry out

21 surveillance or inconsistent?

22 A. Yes, it is.

23 Q. You didn't listen to my question. You need to just listen to my

24 entire question. I asked you: Is it consistent or inconsistent?

25 A. It's consistent.

Page 68

1 Q. Okay.

2 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, at this time, I would seek to tender

3 65 ter number 24H and I.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Any objections? No.

5 Mr. Saxon, do you think that there would have been a possibility

6 to resolve 24I where you read one or two pages but instead produce

7 approximately half a wood in paper format? I'm just asking you because I

8 see that we get a hundred pages where you rely on one. Would there,

9 then, have not been any possibility to agree with the Defence that the

10 page you just read is sufficient?

11 MR. SAXON: Yes.

12 JUDGE ORIE: With a cover page, perhaps.

13 MR. SAXON: Yes. And in the language of the witness, it would

14 be, yeah, page 48, Your Honour.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I do understand. But my question is: Would

16 there not have been another solution than to just present us with hundred

17 pages where 98 pages are totally superfluous?

18 MR. SAXON: I take your point, Your Honour, yes.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Then you're invited to reorganize this exhibit in

20 such a way that the relevant pages are where we can then admit them; that

21 is, cover page and the relevant page you just read from.

22 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Saxon, we combine the two exhibits, 24H and I,

24 with, as a matter of fact, 24H being the translation of the relevant

25 portion of 24I. So we'll ask Mr. Registrar to assign a number to the two

Page 69

1 of them, and then you're invited to just limit the non-English version in

2 such a way that it doesn't take a hundred pages.

3 MR. SAXON: Thank you, Your Honour.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.

5 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, 65 ter 24H and the relevant portion

6 of 24I will become Exhibit Number P5, under seal.

7 JUDGE ORIE: P5 is admitted under seal.

8 Please proceed.

9 And, Mr. Saxon, we'll hear from you what pages you exactly now

10 are tendering in the original language.

11 MR. SAXON: Yes, Your Honour, I will.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please proceed.

13 MR. SAXON: Your Honours, at this time, I have no further

14 questions for this witness.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Saxon.

16 Witness 1, you'll now be cross-examined by Defence counsel, but I

17 do not know whether they have agreed on the sequence.

18 Mr. Dieckmann, will you be the first one to cross-examine the

19 witness?

20 MR. DIECKMANN: Yes, Your Honours. We agreed that I will take

21 the lead with this witness.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

23 Mr. Witness 1, you'll now be cross-examined by Mr. Dieckmann,

24 who's counsel for Mr. Morina.

25 Please proceed.

Page 80

1 they wanted to prevent him from testifying," end of my summary of

2 quotation. Do you remember this statement?

3 MR. SAXON: Excuse me.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Saxon.

5 MR. SAXON: Very sorry to interrupt, but just so I could follow

6 along with my colleague, could he tell me which page, which paragraph

7 he's referring to.

8 MR. DIECKMANN: I'm sorry, yes.

9 MR. SAXON: I'm sorry. I've now found it. It is the fourth

10 paragraph.

11 MR. DIECKMANN: Yes.

12 MR. SAXON: I'm wondering whether a copy could be provided to the

13 witness, Your Honour. I have brought multiple copies in case the witness

14 would like to follow along.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Dieckmann, any objection against the witness

16 being provided with a copy?

17 MR. DIECKMANN: No objections. It is just one sentence I would

18 like to ask him, but, of course --

19 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Then let's proceed.

20 MR. DIECKMANN:

21 Q. Today you testified, and I refer to page 31, line 7 of the

22 provisional transcript, and I may quote: "The journalist let the

23 protected witness know that he's supposed to go down to the Tribunal in

24 The Hague to be a protected witness," end of quotation from page 31, line

25 7.

Page 81

1 So from your testimony today, it seems that Bajrush Morina should

2 have a qualified knowledge about that what should happen in The Hague. I

3 would like to ask you what is the truth?

4 A. Because when we would travel down with a protected witness, it

5 was for a meeting with the Prosecutors down here. It wasn't actually

6 for -- to appear here in the Tribunal court. And that's why I was a

7 little bit suspicious that it has been a leak that he will be going down

8 The Hague. So I was a little bit suspicious about the whole thing.

9 Q. Did the protected witness explicitly said that Bajrush Morina has

10 known that he is a witness in The Hague?

11 A. No. As I recall he said, "As I know, you are travelling down to

12 the Tribunal in Hague." That's what I recall from this conversation.

13 Q. Thank you. As a result of this conversation with the protected

14 witness in the beginning of July 2007, you spoke to your superiors you

15 told us?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And, first of all, your superiors refused to give in the wish of

18 the protected witness to have this meeting; true?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And the immediate and first reaction of the protected witness was

21 that he told you that he would not testify if the meeting did not take

22 place?

23 A. That's correct.

24 Q. And, finally, your superiors accepted?

25 A. After he had received a letter from the Prosecutors down in

Page 82

1 Hague; otherwise, it had -- the meeting wouldn't go on.

2 Q. So, if the Prosecutor had disagreed, the superiors of you would

3 not have accepted the meeting?

4 A. No. There would be no meeting.

5 Q. So we can summarize in the end, there was a condense [sic] of the

6 Prosecution of the ICTY, your superiors, and the witness that this

7 meeting could take place?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. The protected witness was curious you said?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And he was not afraid from your memory?

12 A. No. Why I remember that is when I told him the police chief

13 constable would not allow this meeting for safety and such, the protected

14 witness said, "Hey, if there is something dangerous around this, they

15 wouldn't have called me first," so that's why I can refer to that he was

16 not afraid.

17 Q. And being responsible for the surveying measures that had taken

18 place on the 10th of July and the 11th of July, have you had a chance to

19 listen to the recordings?

20 A. No, because that was on a language that I don't know nothing

21 about. So I just heard the quality and that's good enough for me.

22 Q. And you have seen the video?

23 A. Just some results of it, not the whole.

24 Q. But have you been in the moment on the 10th and 11th of July

25 participating in the surveying measures and visiting what happened?

Page 83

1 A. Just for some seconds, and then I get back because we didn't let

2 anyone know that we were around.

3 Q. From your long-term experience as a police officer being occupied

4 with protective measures like this, do you agree with me that audio

5 recordings of private conversations basically constitute a violation of

6 the right of privacy of a person?

7 A. Yes.

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 Q. I'm sorry, I'm sorry. Due to your experience and knowledge, it

12 was not necessary to have an order of a court to allow you this under the

13 law of your country?

14 A. Not that specific meeting because --

15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Saxon --

16 THE WITNESS: -- we had no criminal case against any one of

17 those. If that had been the matter, then we have take -- have decisions

18 from the prosecutor and the court.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Saxon.

20 MR. SAXON: Very sorry to interrupt. The country of the witness

21 is referred to in page 66, line --

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If you just refer to the page and then --

23 MR. DIECKMANN: Sorry.

24 JUDGE ORIE: -- ask for a redaction.

25 MR. SAXON: Page 66, line 8.

Page 84

1 JUDGE ORIE: 66, line 8 to be redacted.

2 MR. DIECKMANN: I'm sorry for this. Thank you.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

4 MR. DIECKMANN:

5 Q. In the proofing note from 6 September 2008 and also today, you

6 refer, explaining us the legal basis for the police actions to

7 Prosecution Exhibit 24, I think, I, where the leading principles of the

8 law of your home country for this kind of bugging should be expressed.

9 Witness Number 1 --

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

11 MR. SAXON: I'm sorry. I think, at this point, it would be

12 helpful to the witness to have his proofing note in front of him. We're

13 getting into a technical area.

14 MR. DIECKMANN: Sorry.

15 JUDGE ORIE: A copy of the proofing note may be provided to the

16 witness.

17 MR. SAXON: And if my colleague could indicate to the witness

18 what paragraph he is referring to.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

20 MR. DIECKMANN: I refer to page 2 and the fourth paragraph from

21 above.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps, since it becomes a legal debate rather than

23 a witness examination, the Chamber might be interested in having a copy

24 as well.

25 MR. DIECKMANN: Thank you, Your Honours.

Page 85

1 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

2 MR. DIECKMANN: And perhaps --

3 MR. SAXON: Your Honours, would the Chamber like to mark this for

4 identification in some way so there's a record of it?

5 JUDGE ORIE: We'll see how it will be used and then consider

6 marking it for identification.

7 MR. DIECKMANN:

8 Q. I refer especially to the sentence, I may quote: "It is not

9 against the law in GN's country to record conversations in this manner as

10 long as one of the persons involved in the conversation knows it is being

11 recorded. Witness 1 confirmed that this principle is expressed in

12 Prosecution Exhibit 24I."

13 Witness number 1, are you aware that this reference you've made

14 is just a government proposition and not a law?

15 A. Yes. But it's the kind of opposite, because it says there is no

16 support from law to convict somebody to record his own conversation. So

17 it's not against the law, simply.

18 Q. But, finally, you agree with me --

19 MR. DIECKMANN: Sorry.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I'm looking at one of the previous questions

21 and the answers given to that.

22 Witness 1, a question was put to you earlier, and I'll read it

23 literally to you.

24 "From your long-term experience as a police officer being

25 occupied with protective measures like this, do you agree with me that

Page 86

1 audio-recordings of private conversations basically constitute a

2 violation of the rights of privacy of a person?"

3 And your answer was: "Yes."

4 THE WITNESS: I have to read what your question is.

5 Yes. I thought the question was about the privacy, that is a law

6 against integrity and such things, that's why I answered yes.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, because you now tell us that you consider it

8 not to be illegal, and at the same time you tell us that it basically

9 constitutes a violation of the right of privacy of a person.

10 My first question would be: Focusing on the present situation,

11 whose privacy would be violated or whose right of privacy would be

12 violated in the present context?

13 THE WITNESS: It's easy for me if I can express. There is two

14 things concerning this matter with monitoring with -- and recording this

15 kind of conversation. (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 THE WITNESS: [Overlapping speakers]... then you have to have

20 decision from prosecutor and court. But in this case, there was no cause

21 because this matter was up to the department of justice in my home

22 country, concerning if somebody broke a law intend to attempt the

23 witness. (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 87

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 THE WITNESS: Now we have a situation that we had no suspicious,

11 no criminal case against anyone for that department have tell us. So now

12 it was concerning the protected witness's safety and his wishes to record

13 this conversation, and that is legally no problem in my home country. I

14 can't go into -- I couldn't express myself --

15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Dieckmann, this is what happens if you ask legal

16 opinions from a witness.

17 Please proceed.

18 MR. DIECKMANN: I'm sorry. I just have two final questions

19 regarding this matter, if I'm allowed.

20 Q. Witness Number 1, do you agree with me that in July 2007, there

21 was no provision in the legislation, in the law of your country allowing

22 audio-recordings of private conversations, secret wire-tapping of rooms,

23 and bugging of persons, no written law passed by the parliament?

24 A. There was no law against it, no.

25 Q. Thank you. And last question to this aspect --

Page 88

1 JUDGE ORIE: That's not an answer to the question. Mr. Dieckmann

2 is interested to know whether there was any law which would give a legal

3 basis for such operations. You said there was no law prohibiting it.

4 THE WITNESS: No.

5 JUDGE ORIE: May I take it that this included that apart from

6 there being no law prohibiting it, that there was also no law providing a

7 legal basis for such wire-tapping?

8 THE WITNESS: No. As far as I know, I just referred to the law

9 text that I had before me here, there is no law support to convict anyone

10 recording his own conversation.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, whether it's a criminal offence is again

12 another matter.

13 THE WITNESS: Yeah.

14 JUDGE ORIE: But, Mr. Dieckmann, please proceed.

15 MR. DIECKMANN: Thank you, Your Honours.

16 Q. So you could confirm that these audio-tapes and the videos have

17 been produced under the rules of surveying the security of person not as

18 a part of the criminal procedure?

19 A. Yes, that is correct.

20 Q. Thank you very much. And it's correct that you handed over this

21 material you have recorded to the ICTY Prosecutor.

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Did you do it voluntarily or did the Prosecutor from the ICTY ask

24 you to give them the material?

25 A. I asked them if they want this recording sent down here, because

Page 89

1 we -- all the material was played into CD, four of it. And I ask the

2 Prosecutors down here if they like it to send over it, and they say,

3 "Thank you. Immediately, please." And I travel myself to the airport

4 and hand it over to a captain on a KLM flight, and the Prosecutors or

5 investigators down here meet the aeroplane in Amsterdam, Schiphol.

6 Q. Did you hand over the material with special conditions of

7 confidentiality?

8 MR. SAXON: Objection, Your Honour.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Saxon.

10 MR. SAXON: What's the relevance of this question to these

11 proceedings?

12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Dieckmann, if you want to explain anything which

13 might influence the witness in his answer, then we would have to ask the

14 witness to leave the courtroom; but if you can explain without any such

15 fact, then please do so.

16 MR. DIECKMANN: We are referring to the point that this material

17 was used later on in the proceeding against our clients, and we are

18 interested in the conditions under what this material was handed over to

19 the Prosecution and which knowledge the Prosecution has had about the

20 nature and the origin of this material.

21 JUDGE ORIE: The witness may answer the question.

22 Would you please tell us whether any conditions were --

23 THE WITNESS: Yes.

24 JUDGE ORIE: -- put by the Office of the Prosecution, and

25 conditions put by you to the Office of the Prosecution, when you handed

Page 90

1 over these materials?

2 THE WITNESS: There was, as I said, four CDs packed in each

3 plastic and was taped and in a package, and I showed them to the captain

4 on the KLM, so he was sure it was nothing else. But --

5 JUDGE ORIE: Witness 1, it is about conditions.

6 THE WITNESS: Okay.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Conditions such as use it only on Wednesdays or

8 whatever conditions you added to the hand-over of this material.

9 THE WITNESS: No. I call -- can I say the name of the

10 investigator?

11 JUDGE ORIE: Investigator of the Tribunal?

12 THE WITNESS: Yeah.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I don't think that there is any problem, yes.

14 THE WITNESS: It was a man called Barney, and I called him and I

15 said, They are on the way," and he will meet the aeroplane at the

16 Schiphol. So it goes from me to the captain to the Barney, and then I

17 don't know anything else about it.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. No further conditions like use it only for

19 this purpose or use it only for that?

20 THE WITNESS: No, no, no.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Dieckmann.

22 MR. DIECKMANN:

23 Q. May I conclude that you did not inform the ICTY Prosecutors about

24 the nature of or the -- the nature of this material, that this material

25 was produced only in the procedure of protecting the security and not

Page 91

1 being part of a criminal procedure?

2 A. Yes. There was just -- because I didn't listen to the material.

3 I said, This is for you, we don't need it, we have no criminal case in my

4 country. So it's yours, do what you like."

5 Q. You told the ICTY Prosecutors that this -- that there is no

6 criminal procedure in your country?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Thank you. Did you get informations from the ICTY Prosecution

9 that the contempt procedure was initiated at the ICTY?

10 A. I have to read.

11 Yes. I read the letter down to my chief of constable that I

12 require that this meeting would take place, so I have no problem with

13 that.

14 MR. DIECKMANN: I don't have any further questions.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Dieckmann.

16 Could I seek clarification of the last answer. The question was

17 whether you got information from the ICTY Prosecution that the contempt

18 procedure was initiated at the ICTY.

19 You said: "Yes. I read the letter down to my chief ..."

20 What letter are you referring to?

21 THE WITNESS: I'm referring -- maybe I don't understand the

22 contempt procedure on the question before. I understand your question if

23 I know that the Prosecutors down here would let this meeting happen, and

24 that's my --

25 JUDGE ORIE: No. That's clear there is a misunderstanding.

Page 92

1 MR. DIECKMANN: I'm --

2 JUDGE ORIE: The question was whether - and the question was put

3 to you without any time-frame - whether you were aware that proceedings,

4 which I understand to be investigation and then prosecution, for contempt

5 of court - that is, in this case, the suspicion that there was

6 interference with witnesses - had been initiated?

7 THE WITNESS: Yes, I suppose so, because when I talked to the

8 Prosecutor witnesses [sic], I said I don't understand the language, and

9 he give me the information that there was something in this recording

10 that would have sort of stopped his witness and -- but I don't get into

11 details. That's something for the Prosecutors down here, so --

12 JUDGE ORIE: Was that after you'd given the material or before

13 you had given the material?

14 THE WITNESS: It's before.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Was it after the meetings had taken place or

16 before the meetings on the 10th and the 11th of July had taken place?

17 THE WITNESS: After the meeting.

18 JUDGE ORIE: So between the meetings when everything was recorded

19 and before giving it to the Prosecutor's office at the ICTY, you informed

20 them about the content. Is that how I have to understand your answer;

21 that is, that there was in the discussion about, as you said, something

22 in this recording that would sort of stopped this witness. Is

23 that correct?

24 THE WITNESS: Yes, sort of.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Did they then inform you about whether they would

Page 93

1 proceed against these persons, whether they intended to investigate, or

2 whether they intended to prosecute?

3 THE WITNESS: My -- as I recall it, they were interested in and

4 listen to this record and then come back. So there was no clearance that

5 they should have a case as I recall, but they certainly like to listen to

6 the recording.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for those answers and clarification of the

8 last question and answer that was put to you by Mr. Dieckmann.

9 Mr. Khan, any questions for the witness?

10 MR. KHAN: Yes.

11 Cross-examination by Mr. Khan:

12 Q. Good afternoon, Witness.

13 A. Good afternoon.

14 Q. You'll be glad to know I have only a few questions, so hopefully

15 you can go home.

16 A. Yeah.

17 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

18 JUDGE ORIE: Before we continue, Mr. Khan, and I apologise for

19 interrupting, the LiveNote technical issue has been resolved. The

20 settings are now as they should be. But most likely you would have to

21 restart LiveNote to get these new settings on your screens; otherwise, it

22 will still be the old situation.

23 MR. KHAN: I'm grateful, Your Honour.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

25 MR. KHAN:

Page 94

1 Q. Witness, you've told the Court that your overriding aim in all of

2 this was to ensure that the witness would come to the court here in The

3 Hague and also ensure that his family was protected. That's correct,

4 isn't it?

5 A. Yes, it is.

6 Q. And in discharging these functions, you also knew that he was

7 protected by order of this Court; you knew that?

8 A. Yes, I did.

9 Q. I suppose, being a very experienced police officer and the head

10 of your witness scheme, you would have seen the terms of the protective

11 order issued by the Trial Chamber of this Court?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. You had misgivings about the meeting that the witness was so keen

14 to have; that's fair, isn't it?

15 A. Yeah.

16 Q. And you discussed your anxiety with superiors within your

17 ministry and your immediate superior; that's right, isn't it?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And this meeting was conditioned. According to your superior,

20 the condition for it to go ahead was the permission of the Prosecutor of

21 this Tribunal?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. The order of protection was not issued by the Prosecutor; you

24 know that, don't you?

25 A. Sorry, the last question?

Page 95

1 Q. The order giving protective measures to this particular witness

2 was not something simply requested by the Prosecutor; it was an order of

3 a Trial Chamber. You are aware of that, aren't you?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And your responsibility, I presume, was to ensure the

6 Trial Chamber's order was fully honoured and respected? I'm sorry --

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Yes. May I ask you, why didn't you go to the Trial Chamber and

9 ask the Trial Chamber for permission to commence this surveillance?

10 A. The reason why is that when we come here the first week in July,

11 the only one I met was Prosecutor and investigators or witness protection

12 people down here. So I didn't know no one else to contact when this

13 matter comes up. So it's personal contact, nothing else.

14 Q. Yes, that's very candid. Thank you.

15 When you spoke to the Prosecution and told them about the

16 conversation between Mr. Morina and the protected witness, the

17 Prosecution were similarly concerned; is that fair?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Did, in fact, they tell you that they were concerned that there

20 had been a lot of witness intimidation in this case and they thought that

21 a similar attempt may be tried now in relation to this protected witness?

22 A. You know, before this meeting was going on, we didn't exactly

23 know. It was just suspicions we have, and it was unnaturally

24 communication that get us on this trial. So we didn't know actually, but

25 we suspected.

Page 96

1 Q. And that's what I'm going towards. You suspected -- let me

2 rephrase it. Just one moment.

3 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

4 JUDGE ORIE: I'm listening and Mr. Registrar is always listening.

5 MR. KHAN: I'm grateful, Your Honour.

6 Q. When you had conversations with the Office of the Prosecution

7 here in The Hague and mentioned the phone call between Mr. Morina and the

8 protected witness, is it fair to say that the Prosecution thought that an

9 attempt may be in the offing --

10 MR. SAXON: Your Honours.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

12 MR. SAXON: I believe this question is calling for a lot of

13 speculation, Your Honour, the way it's phrased right now.

14 MR. KHAN: Well, Your Honour, I can rephrase it. In my

15 respectful submission, before you rule, I'm -- my question is predicated

16 upon the conversation the witness says in evidence he had with the OTP.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Khan, if you say you can rephrase it, let's do

18 it, so then --

19 MR. KHAN: I'm grateful.

20 Q. Forgive me, Witness, for the bad question.

21 The Prosecution told you, did they not, that they were concerned

22 that there may be an attempt to intimidate this protected witness that

23 was in your care? That's the truth, isn't it?

24 A. No. They were curious about this meeting as well. No one

25 actually said something straightly out because we didn't know; but there

Page 97

1 was interest in this meeting, that's for sure.

2 Q. Thirty people were involved to satisfy your curiosity; is that

3 right?

4 A. No. It was because we didn't know. It had to be -- since the

5 police said yes to the Prosecutor's request about this meeting, we had to

6 take measures. Nothing whatsoever happened during this meeting. That's

7 why we -- it was a lot of people surrounding this area.

8 Q. You said earlier, and perhaps I misunderstood you, that in your

9 country --

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. -- if this -- and correct me if I'm wrong. I think it was page

12 69 or thereabouts under the original LiveNote transcript. But you said

13 that if this had been a criminal case (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 MR. KHAN:

21 Q. If this -- if you had suspicions and this had been a witness in

22 your home country, would you have sought an order from a Trial Chamber in

23 order to commence this video and audio surveillance?

24 A. Yes. That's why we take contact with the justice of department,

25 just to see that we don't have a criminal case in this.

Page 105

1 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Please be seated.

2 Witness 2, the protective measures that were earlier granted to

3 you - that is, testimony to be given under pseudonym and face and voice

4 distortion - still do apply. Please take care that in answering

5 questions, that you do not refer to your identity and also not to the

6 state in which you reside or the city in which you live or any other

7 reference to that state in any way.

8 You'll first be examined by Mr. Saxon, who is counsel for the

9 Prosecution.

10 Mr. Saxon, please proceed.

11 MR. SAXON: Thank you, Your Honour. And we have prepared a piece

12 of paper with the witness's details on them, if that could be shown to

13 the witness, please.

14 WITNESS: WITNESS 2

15 [Witness answered through interpreter]

16 Examination by Mr. Saxon:

17 Q. Good afternoon, Witness Number 2. Witness Number 2, can you

18 please take a look at that piece of paper in front of you and let us know

19 whether your name is written there correctly.

20 A. Yes, it is.

21 Q. And is your date of birth written there correctly?

22 A. Yes, it is.

23 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer].

24 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, perhaps this sheet could be shown to my

25 colleagues from the Defence; and if there is no objection, then I would

Page 106

1 seek to tender it.

2 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber has looked at it --

3 MR. KHAN: No objection, Your Honour.

4 MR. DIECKMANN: No objection as well.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar, the pseudonym sheet would be exhibit

6 number?

7 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit Number P6, under seal, Your Honours.

8 JUDGE ORIE: P6 is admitted under seal.

9 May I remind everyone that microphones should be switched off

10 when the witness answers the questions.

11 MR. SAXON: I'm wondering if I could ask for the kind assistance

12 of our usher again, if binder number 1 could be placed in front of the

13 witness, please, and if it could be opened to tab number 3, which, Your

14 Honour, was Prosecution 65 ter 3 as well.

15 Q. Witness Number 2, you'll see that there is a statement placed in

16 front of you; it has your name on it. Are you looking at it in the

17 Albanian version, because that is the version that you've signed?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And do you recall providing this statement to the Office of the

20 Prosecutor on the 14th of August of last year, 2007?

21 A. Yes, I do.

22 Q. And are the contents of this written statement true and correct?

23 A. Yes, they are.

24 Q. Does this written statement reflect what you would say if you

25 were examined or questioned verbally here in this courtroom?

Page 107

1 A. Yes, of course.

2 MR. SAXON: Okay. Your Honour, at this time, I would seek to

3 tender this document.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

5 Could we also ask the witness whether -- you said it's true and

6 accurate. Does it reflect the statement you gave on the 14th of August?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.

9 Then, any objections?

10 MR. KHAN: Your Honour, no.

11 JUDGE ORIE: No objections.

12 MR. DIECKMANN: No objection.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar, I think we only have to, apart

14 from -- I made a mistake, as a matter of fact, and I asked whether you

15 had any objections; whereas, it's admitted already into evidence. So I

16 apologise for that. But it has not yet received a number.

17 65 ter number 3, Mr. Registrar, would receive number?

18 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit Number P7, under seal, Your Honours.

19 JUDGE ORIE: P7 was already admitted into evidence.

20 Mr. Saxon.

21 MR. SAXON:

22 Q. And, Witness, if you could please turn to the next tab in that

23 binder, which is tab 4.

24 MR. SAXON: Your Honours, this will be 65 ter number 4.

25 Q. And if you could turn to the Albanian version, please, Witness

Page 108

1 Number 2, this is another statement bearing your name and signature.

2 It's dated the 20th of September, 2007. Do you recall giving this

3 statement to the Office of the Prosecutor?

4 A. Yes, I do.

5 Q. And do you recall that yesterday you reviewed the Albanian

6 version of this statement in my office, in the company of myself and an

7 interpreter and an OTP investigator? Do you recall that?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Could you turn to paragraph 23, please. Witness Number 2, is

10 there anything in paragraph 23 that you feel should be corrected?

11 A. Yes. I think something should be added or corrected here.

12 Q. And can you tell us what that correction should be?

13 A. I will try to explain. In the second part of the paragraph

14 reference is made to -- that Haraqija should not contact me because there

15 were three people who would be very important, who could give critical

16 evidence against Haradinaj, one of whom was the protected witness, the

17 second one was Bujar Bukoshi, and the third one Halil Bicaj, former

18 minister of defence.

19 I asked Bajrush whether Bicaj was the third person and he said,

20 "No, I don't think so." At one point, Bajrush told me that Schook told

21 Haraqija that these three can save Haradinaj by not testifying.

22 Q. Witness, I'm going to interrupt you there. So the correction in

23 this paragraph, in the last two or three sentences, it should simply say

24 that, during your meeting, Mr. Morina referred to yourself, Mr. Bukoshi,

25 and an unnamed third person, rather than Mr. Halil Bicaj; is that

Page 109

1 correct?

2 A. Yes, that's exactly it.

3 Q. And then, at some point, you asked Mr. Morina if Mr. Bicaj was

4 the third person and Mr. Morina said: "No, I did not think so." Is that

5 correct?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And then, so with those changes, would this paragraph be correct?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And just as a point of clarification, you mentioned earlier

10 something about that: "... Haraqija should not contact me because there

11 were three people ..."

12 Is that what you meant to say?

13 A. No, that's not exactly what I wanted to say.

14 Q. What did you want to say?

15 A. I wanted to say that in the last sentence, where it is said that

16 these three people could save Haradinaj by not testifying, that the name

17 of the third person should not be mentioned as Halil Bicaj because he had

18 said that that was not the third person.

19 Q. All right.

20 A. Bajrushi had said that that was not the third person.

21 Q. Did Bajrush say that was not the third person or that he did not

22 think so or did not know?

23 A. I asked him could Halil Bicaj be the third person, and he said:

24 "No, I don't think so."

25 Q. Witness Number 2, with that correction in paragraph 23, does this

Page 110

1 written statement accurately reflect your declaration?

2 A. Yes, it reflects it completely.

3 Q. And does this written statement accurately reflect what you would

4 say if you were examined or questioned orally today?

5 A. Yes.

6 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, at this time, I would seek to tender

7 this particular statement under Rule 92 ter along with the associated

8 exhibit, which now has the number P4.

9 JUDGE ORIE: It is admitted already into evidence, so tendering

10 is not necessarily anymore, but a number has to be assigned to it; and

11 then you said "with the associated exhibit," which is now P4. The

12 exhibit would be -- the statement is 65 ter 4?

13 MR. SAXON: This last statement is 65 ter --

14 JUDGE ORIE: Oh, you mean the --

15 MR. SAXON: P4, Your Honours, was the list of SMS messages.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That is correct. And that's the only

17 attachment you want to tender through this witness, or do we --

18 MR. SAXON: That was the only associated exhibit that we

19 submitted.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

21 MR. SAXON: Yes, Your Honour.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Then, there are -- I don't have to ask about

23 objections.

24 Mr. Registrar, would you please assign a number to 65 ter

25 number P4.