Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 698

1 Tuesday, 17th July 2007

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.04 a.m.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Good morning, everybody.

7 Mr. Registrar, will you please call the case.

8 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you.

9 Good morning, Your Honours. This is case IT-0 IT-04-83-T, the

10 Prosecutor versus Rasim Delic.

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

12 May we have the appearances today, starting with the Prosecution.

13 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President.

14 Good morning, Your Honours, Counsel, and everyone in and around

15 the courtroom. For the Prosecution, Daryl Mundis, Kyle Wood, Aditya

16 Menon, and our case manager, Alma Imamovic.

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

18 For the Defence.

19 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours, and

20 good morning to everybody in the courtroom.

21 Vasvija Vidovic and Nicholas Robson representing General Delic,

22 with our legal assistants, Lana Deljkic and Asja Zujo.

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

24 WITNESS: SABIN ALIC [Resumed]

25 [The witness answered through interpreter]

Page 699

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Alic, may I remind you, you are still bound by

2 the declaration you made at the beginning of your testimony to tell the

3 truth, the whole truth, and nothing else but the truth.

4 Thank you very much.

5 Judge, any questions?

6 JUDGE HARHOFF: No.

7 Questioned by the Court: [Continued]

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Alic, you mentioned in your evidence that on

9 the 1st of June, 1993, you went to Zapode, where you joined a group of

10 Arabs. Did that group have a name?

11 A. At the time, it didn't.

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Did it have a name at any other time?

13 A. Later on, that group became the El Mujahed Detachment, which was

14 part of the BiH Army.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Are you able to explain what you mean by saying it

16 was "part of the BiH Army"?

17 A. Well, it was part of the army, by formation, by establishment.

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: "By formation, by establishment," are you able to

19 elaborate a little bit more? What do you mean by that?

20 A. We were given our status as a detachment, and we belonged to the

21 3rd Corps of the BiH Army. We were part of the BiH Army.

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Now, you said that sometime during your

23 operations, I think from Zapode going down, you came across some two or

24 three bodies of dead people. Do you remember that?

25 A. Yes. Not three; one or two, that's what I said. I'm sure that

Page 700

1 there were two.

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Do you know who killed these people?

3 A. Well, I don't know exactly who killed them. In any case, during

4 the operation in the morning, whoever was breaking through the line, this

5 happened in the trench, midline.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm not quite sure I understand that answer.

7 A. Let me put it this way: When you are making an attempt to break

8 through the line, the enemy waits in the trenches. As you launch the

9 attack, you move towards the trenches. Those who do not flee before you

10 reach the trenches get killed if they don't escape first before you reach

11 those trenches.

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Do you, by any chance, know the ethnicity of these

13 victims?

14 A. The line was facing the Croats. They were wearing uniforms, they

15 were on the Croat side, and most probably they were Croats. I did not

16 inspect any ID papers, but I would suspect they were Croats.

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: How do you determine that they were on the Croat

18 side?

19 A. That's where the trenches were, and the bodies were lying strewn

20 on the edge of the trench. That's where I saw them.

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: You just said they were wearing a uniform. Are you

22 able to tell what uniform they were wearing?

23 A. Camouflage uniforms; the complete uniform with boots, the anorak,

24 and the camouflage trousers.

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: What I'm trying to find out is: Were you able to

Page 701

1 identify whose army that uniform belonged to? Was it the HVO, was it the

2 Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina, or was it the VRS? What was it, the

3 uniform?

4 A. Most probably the HVO. I passed by that trench, and I just threw

5 a glance. I did not have the time to look for any insignia. I did not

6 see any insignia. I did not look for insignia because I didn't have the

7 time to do that. Do you see?

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

9 That concludes my questions. Any re-examination arising from the

10 questions by the Bench, Mr. Wood?

11 MR. WOOD: No, Your Honour.

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

13 Madam Vidovic?

14 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

16 Sir, this brings us to the end of your testimony. Thank you very

17 much for taking time off to come and testify for the Tribunal. You are

18 now excused. You may leave. Thank you so much.

19 [The witness withdrew]

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: The Registry has indicated that we need to take a

21 short break to prepare the courtroom for the next witness.

22 You said 20 minutes? Twenty minutes. We'll break for 20 minutes

23 and come back in 20 minutes' time.

24 Court adjourned.

25 --- Recess taken at 9.14 a.m.

Page 702

1 [The witness entered court]

2 --- On resuming at 9.35 a.m.

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Just to confirm, do we go into private or closed

4 session or not?

5 MR. MUNDIS: Your Honour, I think it's best if we begin in private

6 session.

7 [Trial Chamber confers]

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry about that.

9 Before we move into private session, I guess I can say this with

10 the witness present here. Is it possible to ask the Defence for an

11 expedited response to the 73 bis (F) motion so that hopefully a decision

12 could be rendered before the recess? I guess it is in the interests of

13 everybody else.

14 MR. ROBSON: Good morning, Your Honours.

15 We received the motion yesterday. We're working on it. We'll be

16 able to forward a response in the next few days.

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much. Thank you. I know you've got

18 two weeks, but just so that we can render a decision before recess.

19 MR. ROBSON: Indeed, yes, Your Honour.

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

21 Okay. That being the case, then can we move into private session?

22 Can we make the declaration first before we move into private?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

24 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

25 WITNESS: PW-2

Page 703

1 [The witness answered through interpreter]

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. You may be seated, sir.

3 All right. May the Chamber now move into private session.

4 [Private session]

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 704

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11 Page 704 redacted. Private session

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 705

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 [Open session]

18 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're now in open session.

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

20 Yes, Mr. Mundis.

21 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Your Honours.

22 Q. PW-2, can you please tell the Trial Chamber when the war in Bosnia

23 and Herzegovina began, as far as you are aware?

24 A. In spring 2002 -- I'm sorry, 1992.

25 Q. PW-2, at that time, spring 1992, when the war began in Bosnia and

Page 706

1 Herzegovina, where were you living?

2 A. I was living in Sanski Most. However, I was at school in

3 Ljubljana in Slovenia.

4 Q. PW-2, after the war began, did you join any military force or

5 armed force?

6 A. After the war began, I returned from Slovenia and I arrived in

7 Travnik, and I joined a unit of volunteers.

8 Q. Can you briefly tell the Trial Chamber, sir, what steps you took

9 in travelling from Slovenia to Travnik, where you joined a unit of

10 volunteers?

11 A. In Slovenia, there were a lot of people from my town. When the

12 war started, we did not know anything about our families. We sought ways

13 to return to Bosnia. I learned in Zagreb that there was a place where our

14 people were gathering. After a certain while, I arrived in Zagreb, that

15 is. I joined a group on its way to Bosnia.

16 Q. And, sir, just so that we all understand, you travelled from

17 Ljubljana to Zagreb, and from Zagreb to Bosnia and Herzegovina; is that

18 correct?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Do you recall, PW-2, approximately when you arrived in Travnik?

21 A. In late June or early July. I can't be more specific than that.

22 Q. And the year, sir?

23 A. In 1992.

24 Q. PW-2, when you arrived in Travnik, can you tell the Trial Chamber

25 to what location in Travnik you went?

Page 707

1 A. We arrived at the former JNA barracks in Travnik.

2 Q. You told us a few moments ago, sir, that you joined a unit of

3 volunteers. Did that unit of volunteers have a name at the time you

4 joined in late June, early July, 1992?

5 A. The 1st Krajina Battalion.

6 Q. And do you know, PW-2, to what armed force or military force the

7 1st Krajina Battalion was a part?

8 A. In my opinion, it was the Territorial Defence at the time, since

9 the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina had not been formed yet. So I believe

10 it was the Territorial Defence.

11 Q. Do you recall, PW-2, approximately when the Army of Bosnia and

12 Herzegovina was formed?

13 A. I don't know exactly. I know that there were transformation

14 processes ongoing. Perhaps at the end of 1992, the Army of Bosnia and

15 Herzegovina was formed out of the Territorial Defence, but it happened

16 gradually.

17 Q. At the time you joined the 1st Krajina Battalion, PW-2, in late

18 June or early July of 1992, do you know who the commander of that

19 battalion was?

20 A. Osman Omanovic.

21 Q. Can you explain to the Trial Chamber, PW-2, why a unit with the

22 name "1st Krajina Battalion" was formed in Travnik?

23 A. We came from Slovenia in order to defend our families. We

24 organised that unit ourselves, as fighters.

25 Q. Were the members of the 1st Krajina Battalion from the Krajina?

Page 708

1 A. Most of them were.

2 Q. And can you briefly tell the Trial Chamber what the Krajina is?

3 A. The Krajina is the northwestern part of Bosnia-Herzegovina, which

4 was under a total blockade in relation to the other parts of the country.

5 Q. Is Travnik located in the Krajina?

6 A. That region gravitates toward the Krajina.

7 Q. Would it be fair to say, PW-2, that the members of the 1st Krajina

8 Battalion were refugees from the Krajina who joined this unit in order to

9 fight?

10 A. First off, there were us volunteers who had been working or

11 schooling in Slovenia. Later on, refugees from other parts of the country

12 started joining us.

13 Q. PW-2, how long did you remain a member of the 1st Krajina

14 Battalion based in Travnik?

15 A. A month and a half, roughly.

16 Q. During the time period that you were with the 1st Krajina

17 Battalion, where was the headquarters of that unit?

18 A. I believe it was in the barracks.

19 Q. And, again, sir, for the benefit of the record and the Trial

20 Chamber, when you say "the barracks," can you be more specific?

21 A. The barracks we arrived at, the JNA barracks in Travnik.

22 Q. And at the time, PW-2, when you arrived at the JNA barracks in

23 Travnik, was the JNA still at that barracks?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Other than the 1st Krajina Battalion, were there any other

Page 709

1 military units located at the former JNA barracks in Travnik, to the best

2 of your recollection or knowledge?

3 A. In one part of the barracks, there was one HVO unit.

4 Q. During the time period, sir, that you were with the 1st Krajina

5 Battalion, did you engage in any combat operations with that unit?

6 A. Yes.

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: May I just interrupt for a while. Just one

8 question, Mr. Mundis.

9 This former JNA barracks, did it have a name?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know.

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.

12 MR. MUNDIS:

13 Q. PW-2, can you briefly tell the Trial Chamber in what areas you

14 engaged in combat operations while you were a member of the 1st Krajina

15 Battalion from late June, early July, 1992?

16 A. It was the area of Turbe in the direction of Donji Vakuf or Jajce.

17 Q. Sir, during the one and a half month period that you were with the

18 1st Krajina Battalion, did you see or encounter any foreign fighters; that

19 is, fighters from outside Bosnia and Herzegovina?

20 A. No, not at the lines.

21 Q. Did you, sir, at the time period you were with the 1st Krajina

22 Battalion, see any foreign fighters in any locations other than the front

23 lines?

24 A. When I returned from the front lines for a rest at the Travnik

25 barracks, I saw foreigners coming once.

Page 710

1 Q. PW-2, when you say you "saw foreigners coming once," coming to

2 where? At what location did you see these foreign fighters?

3 A. I saw them coming to the JNA barracks.

4 Q. Do you recall, approximately, how many foreign fighters you saw

5 coming to the JNA barracks on that occasion?

6 A. One car.

7 Q. You told us, sir, that you were a member of the 1st Krajina

8 Battalion for one and a half months. After that period, that is, after

9 you served with the 1st Krajina Battalion, did you join any other military

10 unit?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Do you recall the approximate date, sir, that you joined this

13 other military unit?

14 A. In late August.

15 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Mundis, could I just interrupt to ask the

16 witness when he saw the foreign fighters at the JNA barracks?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I saw them at the time when I was

18 absent from the lines. We had a rotation of shifts, because the 1st

19 Krajina Battalion did not have enough weapons. We replaced each other at

20 the front lines. As I returned to the barracks for my first rest, I saw a

21 car full of foreigners.

22 JUDGE HARHOFF: And do you recall when that was?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Perhaps some 15 to 20 days before I

24 joined the other unit.

25 JUDGE HARHOFF: And that was sometime in August 1993; is that

Page 711

1 correct -- 1992? Do you remember the year?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 1992. Possibly in August, yes.

3 JUDGE HARHOFF: Possibly in August 1992, you saw for the first

4 time the foreign fighters. Thank you very much.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

6 MR. MUNDIS:

7 Q. PW-2, this unit that you joined in late August 1992, did it have a

8 name?

9 A. The Muslim Forces of Travnik.

10 Q. Do you recall, sir, what steps, if any, you took in leaving the

11 1st Krajina Battalion and joining the Muslim Forces of Travnik?

12 A. We had very small amounts of weapons in the 1st Krajina Battalion.

13 I thought that I would have to wait for a long time before I get my

14 weapons back, once I leave them at the front lines. And an individual

15 approached me and invited me to join the Muslim Forces, as they had plenty

16 of weapons. There were also Krajina fighters among them, and I accepted

17 the offer.

18 Q. In leaving the 1st Krajina Battalion, Witness PW-2, did you

19 consult with your commander, or fill out any paperwork, or take any

20 official steps such as those to leave the 1st Krajina Battalion and join

21 the Muslim Forces of Travnik?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Do you recall, PW-2, who the commander was of the Travnik Muslim

24 Forces at the time you joined that unit?

25 A. I can't tell you exactly. There were several individuals there.

Page 712

1 When I first went to the front lines with the Muslim Forces, the commander

2 was Asim Koricic.

3 Q. Do you recall, PW-2, the names of any other leaders of the Travnik

4 Muslim Forces?

5 A. When I came to town, I knew of Ahmed Adilovic. There were some

6 other individuals at the headquarters, Semir Terzic.

7 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Mundis, could we just ask the witness to

8 explain briefly to us why he left the Krajina Brigade and joined the

9 Muslim Forces?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The Krajina unit was poorly

11 furnished with weapons. We weren't able to do what we had come to do

12 there in the first place, and whoever wanted could join the other unit

13 because we shared the same goal, and there were other units that were

14 better equipped with weapons.

15 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you.

16 MR. MUNDIS:

17 Q. PW-2, when you say "we shared the same goal," can you be more

18 specific?

19 A. We all shared the goal of defending our country against those who

20 were attacking us.

21 Q. And, again, PW-2, can you tell the Trial Chamber who was attacking

22 you at that time that you were with the Muslim Forces of Travnik?

23 A. The Serb forces, the Serbs therefore.

24 Q. Sir, a few moments ago you mentioned the name "Ahmed Adilovic."

25 Do you know what role Mr. Adilovic played in the Muslim Forces of Travnik

Page 713

1 during the time that you were with that unit?

2 A. He was among the Command Staff. They called him "Emir," but I

3 can't tell exactly. He was one of the main people there of the people in

4 charge.

5 Q. Do you know, PW-2, whether Mr. Adilovic had responsibilities

6 concerning religious affairs within the unit?

7 A. Yes, among other things.

8 Q. You also mentioned, sir, the name "Semir Terzic." Do you know

9 what responsibilities Mr. Terzic had within the Travnik Muslim Forces at

10 the time you were with that unit?

11 A. As far as the group of soldiers that I was part of, he was in

12 charge of training, and he was probably in charge of some other duties as

13 well.

14 Q. PW-2, other than Asim Koricic, Semir Terzic, and Ahmed Adilovic,

15 do you remember any of the other leaders of the Travnik Muslim Forces

16 during the time period you were in that unit?

17 A. There was a former JNA officer. People refer to him as "Major

18 Tara," and I don't know his real name.

19 Q. PW-2, how long did you remain a member of the Muslim Forces of

20 Travnik after joining that unit in late August 1992?

21 A. I was there for quite a while, even at the time when the unit was

22 transformed into a new formation.

23 Q. We'll go into that transformation in a few moments, sir, but do

24 you recall the approximate date that this transformation into a new

25 formation occurred?

Page 714

1 A. I don't know exactly. It was wintertime. It may have been the

2 end of 1992. It may have been the end of -- the beginning of 1993. I

3 don't know exactly.

4 Q. I'd like to focus your attention, sir, on the period from late

5 August 1992, when you joined the Travnik Muslim Forces, until this period

6 at the end of 1992 or the beginning of 1993, when the unit was

7 transformed.

8 During that time period from late August 1992 until the

9 transformation, can you describe how the Travnik Muslim Forces were

10 organised?

11 A. They were organised in the same way as the other units were, as a

12 military structure, although there were some differences.

13 Q. I would ask you, PW-2, if you could explain how the unit was

14 structured and also how it was different from other military units.

15 A. I can't explain the structure, really. As far as the differences

16 go, people practiced religion to a greater degree than, say, in the

17 Krajina unit.

18 Q. During this time period, from late August 1992 until the unit was

19 transformed at the end of 1992 or beginning of 1993, did you engage in any

20 combat operations while serving as a member of the Travnik Muslim Forces?

21 A. Yes. I participated in quite a few offensive activities.

22 Q. Can you briefly describe these offensive activities that you

23 engaged in while a member of that unit, the locations and the approximate

24 time periods of those offensive activities?

25 A. Until the end of 1992, we were oftentime present in the area

Page 715

1 toward Jajce, which is called Karaula. There were quite a few offensive

2 activities there. The group which I was a part of first spent some time

3 in Jajce, too.

4 Q. Other than this area toward Jajce called Karaula, did you engage

5 in any other combat actions at any other locations while engaged in the

6 Travnik Muslim Forces?

7 A. In the course of 1992, we were present only in the areas of

8 Karaula, Vlasic, and Jajce, but that's similar territory -- or rather,

9 that's all close by. We were also present at Guca, near Donji Vakuf.

10 Q. PW-2, a moment ago you mentioned a group, "the group which I was a

11 part of." Can you describe for the Trial Chamber what this group that you

12 were a part of was?

13 A. This was one platoon of the Muslim Forces. We set out for Jajce.

14 We numbered some 25 men. We were sent as assistants to the Krajina unit,

15 as the Jajce area was under strong attacks.

16 Q. Other than the Krajina unit and the Muslim Forces of Travnik, were

17 there able to units of the ABiH that were in the Jajce area at that time?

18 A. There was the HVO, too, in the Jajce area.

19 Q. At this point in time, sir, autumn into early winter 1992, can you

20 describe the relationship between the HVO and the ABiH?

21 A. In 1992, I don't know exactly. We didn't have many contacts with

22 them, and I didn't notice anything in particular.

23 Q. During this period, again, late 1992, was the BH Army and the HVO

24 working together against the VRS?

25 A. Well, they were together at Jajce, although the units were

Page 716

1 separate, and I can't explain that, really.

2 Q. During the period in late 1992, was the BH Army and the HVO

3 fighting each other in this area where you were located?

4 A. I know that there were some problems at Novi Travnik, but I don't

5 know anything specific.

6 Q. Let's return, sir, to the issue of the Travnik Muslim Forces. Can

7 you tell the Trial Chamber the composition of that unit during the time

8 period that you were in it, in terms of where the people from that unit

9 came from?

10 A. During my stay in Travnik, while I was attending the training,

11 there were only Bosniaks there.

12 Q. And, sir, what time period are you referring to when you say

13 "during my stay in Travnik, while I was attending the training"? What

14 time period was that?

15 A. Before I went to Karaula, to the field.

16 Q. With respect to the issue of Bosniaks, did that unit remain

17 comprised only of Bosniaks after you returned from Karaula?

18 A. It was composed of Bosniaks, but in Karaula we were billeted in

19 the village where foreigners were staying. So we were in the same place.

20 Q. And do you know, sir, where these foreigners came from?

21 A. Those were Arabs and Turks. There was several groups there. I

22 don't know exactly. Different groups.

23 Q. Do you know, PW-2, if at any time while you were a member of the

24 Travnik Muslim Forces, whether any foreign fighters joined that unit?

25 A. I don't know whether they were registered as members by

Page 717

1 establishment; but when we were in the field, we were together. We even

2 participated in some actions together. When I say "together," I mean we

3 were fighting together.

4 MR. MUNDIS: I would ask that the witness be shown on e-court the

5 document which has previously been marked PT or P01014.

6 Q. And while this document is coming up, PW-2, do you recall the

7 names of any other members of the Travnik Muslim Forces at the time period

8 you were in that unit?

9 A. Yes. I do remember some names.

10 Q. Can you please tell us those names, sir, of the people that you

11 remember?

12 A. Number 1, Ahmed Adilovic.

13 Q. If I could just interrupt, Witness, you're now looking at the

14 document in front of you; is that correct?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Which has been, again, marked P01014. And if you could, sir, as

17 you've just done, indicate the number next to the names of the people that

18 you recall serving with in this unit.

19 A. Number 15, Faik Selman; number 16, Ramo Durmis; 22, Meho

20 Begonovic.

21 Q. Before we go to the next page in the Bosnia language, sir, earlier

22 you mentioned Semir Terzic. Do you see his name on this list?

23 A. No.

24 MR. MUNDIS: Could we please go to the next page, then, in the

25 Bosnian language.

Page 718

1 Q. And, again, sir, if you recognise any of the names of individuals

2 that you served with in the Travnik Muslim Forces, please, indicate that.

3 A. Muhammad Nevalic, 43; 48, Muharem Adilovic; number 49, Muris Ribo;

4 number 60, Amir Puric.

5 MR. MUNDIS: Scroll to the bottom of that page.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 65, Adem Siljak.

7 MR. MUNDIS: Please go to the next page.

8 Q. Sir, this document seems to be signed by someone who went by "Emir

9 Redzic." Do you know who is or was?

10 A. I can't tell you exactly. We referred to that person as "Major

11 Tara." That could be him. It is quite possible, but I'm not sure.

12 MR. MUNDIS: If we could please go back to the first page of this

13 document.

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Maybe before you go to the first page, could we

15 sort of get the witness to read for us, if he can, what's written on that

16 stamp?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "Muslim Forces."

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: The Muslim Forces of Travnik?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know what the stamp looked

20 like, but what I see here, the inscription, I mean, is "Muslim Forces."

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

22 Yes, Mr. Mundis.

23 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President.

24 If we could, again, go to the first page of this document, and if

25 we could have the top half a little bit lower. That's fine.

Page 719

1 Q. PW-2, do you see the date of this document?

2 A. 15 September 1992.

3 Q. And to the best of your recollection, sir, were you a member of

4 the Muslim Forces, Travnik, on that date?

5 A. I was.

6 MR. MUNDIS: I would ask to briefly go into private session, Your

7 Honours.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into private session.

9 Yes, Madam Vidovic.

10 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, just for a moment, I

11 would like to draw your attention to the fact that in the English version,

12 the date of the document is missing, which may be confusing the matter at

13 a later stage.

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Madam Vidovic. I noticed that

15 myself.

16 Mr. Mundis.

17 MR. MUNDIS: Your Honours, I'm asking my case manager if we can

18 get that resubmitted for a revised version of the translation.

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. We are now in private

20 session.

21 [Private session]

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 720

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 [Open session]

17 THE REGISTRAR: Back in open session, Your Honour.

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

19 Yes, Mr. Mundis.

20 MR. MUNDIS:

21 Q. PW-2, do you know the name of the person within the Travnik Muslim

22 Forces who was responsible for logistics or supply issues?

23 A. I believe that there were a few, a few people involved in that,

24 because the supplies were obtained in various ways. As far as I can

25 remember, one of them was Semir Terzic, but I'm sure that there were a few

Page 721

1 people involved in that.

2 MR. MUNDIS: Your Honours, we would ask that this document,

3 previously P01014, be admitted into evidence.

4 JUDGE HARHOFF: Can I just ask the witness if his name appears on

5 the list? He doesn't have to -- just "yes" or "no." I may have missed

6 it.

7 MR. MUNDIS: Perhaps if we could go back into private session for

8 that, Your Honour.

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into private session.

10 [Private session]

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 722

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11 Page 722 redacted. Private session

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 723

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 [Open session]

7 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honour.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

9 The document is admitted into evidence. May it please be given an

10 exhibit number.

11 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit 103.

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Mundis, I realise -- I'm aware of the fact that

13 we had a break of 20 minutes a little earlier, but we're now confusing our

14 schedule for the rest of the day. How much longer would you like to go?

15 MR. MUNDIS: Perhaps if I could just go -- well, if it's

16 convenient for the Trial Chamber, I'm certainly happy to stop at this

17 point, if that would be --

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: The Trial Chamber would like to stop at the point

19 when it's convenient for Mr. Mundis.

20 MR. MUNDIS: Okay. Thank you, Your Honour. If I could go perhaps

21 another five or six minutes, perhaps about 20 to, and I think that would

22 be fine.

23 Q. Now, PW-2, as reflected a few moments ago on page 21, line 14, you

24 recognised one of the names on this list as being that of Ramo Durmis.

25 Can you tell the Trial Chamber how it is that you came to know the

Page 724

1 person Ramo Durmis?

2 A. I don't know exactly when he joined, but in any case he was the

3 commander of a group in the Muslim Forces.

4 Q. And, PW-2, did you ever serve in the group that was commanded by

5 Ramo Durmis?

6 A. I was for a while, I suppose. It changed frequently. We changed

7 our affiliation quite frequently.

8 Q. And do you know, PW-2, whether Ramo Durmis had a nickname or

9 whether he went by any pseudonym?

10 A. He liked to call himself "Abu Jihad."

11 Q. And do you know, PW-2, where Ramo Durmis came from?

12 A. Ramo Durmis was not from Travnik, I believe. I think he was from

13 Zenica.

14 MR. MUNDIS: I would ask now, immediately prior to the break, if

15 the witness could be shown P02960. That's P02960.

16 Q. And while that's coming up, Witness, do you know an individual by

17 the name of Makteuf?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Can you tell the Trial Chamber how you know this person and where

20 he came from?

21 A. On a couple of occasions, I saw him in Travnik, when I was in

22 training at the Muslim Forces. I know that he was together with Semir

23 Terzic and some people from the command, and that he provided some sort of

24 logistical support.

25 Q. And do you know, PW-2, where Mr. Makteuf came from?

Page 725

1 A. I believe that he was from Iraq.

2 Q. Now, PW-2, do you now see a document in front of you? I apologise

3 for the poor quality of this document, but do you see a document on the

4 screen in front of you?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Again, sir, I would ask you if you could please look down this

7 list and give us just the number of the person -- of any person whose name

8 you recognise as being a member of the Muslim Forces.

9 A. Number 1, number 4, number 5, number 18, 20, 31, 37, 42.

10 Q. Okay. Before we go to the next page, sir, do you see on this list

11 that after each first name there are the letters "Ibn"?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Do you know, sir, what that means?

14 A. This means "son." However, I find this document rather peculiar

15 because I don't know this "Ibn." This wasn't actually used. It's an Arab

16 word, and I don't know who put it there.

17 MR. MUNDIS: Could we please go to the next page of this document.

18 And before we continue with this exercise, I would ask that we go into

19 private session for this part of the witness's testimony, please.

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into private session.

21 [Private session]

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 726

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 [Open session]

25 THE REGISTRAR: We are now in open session.

Page 727

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

2 Yes, Mr. Mundis.

3 MR. MUNDIS: Your Honours, we would tender P02960 into evidence

4 and ask that that be given an exhibit number, please.

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: P02960 has been admitted into evidence. May it

6 please be given an exhibit number.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, that will be Exhibit 104.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

9 MR. MUNDIS: This would be an appropriate spot for the first

10 break -- the second break, actually, Your Honours. Thank you.

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Mundis.

12 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: We've got to work out when we come back. We come

14 back at, what, quarter past 11.00?

15 Court adjourned.

16 --- Recess taken at 10.47 a.m.

17 --- On resuming at 11.19 a.m.

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry about that delay.

19 Yes, Mr. Mundis.

20 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Your Honours.

21 Q. PW-2, I'm going to show you in just a moment a videotape. But

22 before I do that, I'd like to ask you, sir: During the time period that

23 you were with the Travnik Muslim Forces, were you aware of the location

24 where that unit had its headquarters?

25 A. The unit had its headquarters in the town itself close to the

Page 728

1 police station.

2 Q. Can you tell us a little bit about this headquarters, what

3 building or buildings it was located in?

4 A. I don't know exactly. I only know that it was downtown. It's

5 just an ordinary building. There's nothing special to it.

6 MR. MUNDIS: I would ask now, Your Honours, that the witness be

7 shown the video which has been marked P06001. And for the benefit of the

8 transcript, we're beginning this videotape at the point eight minutes and

9 19 seconds.

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Are you going to do this in open session?

11 MR. MUNDIS: Yes, Your Honour.

12 Q. And before I show this tape to you, PW-2, I'm going to ask you if

13 at any point in this tape you recognise anyone, if you can just say the

14 word "stop" and we will pause the videotape.

15 Similarly, I will ask you, sir, if you recognise the location

16 where this videotape was taken, I would ask you similarly to indicate that

17 by simply telling us where the location of the videotape is.

18 MR. MUNDIS: And I don't believe, Your Honours, it's necessary for

19 the audio portion of this tape to be played; but if Your Honours would

20 like the audio played, we can certainly do that.

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: We are in your hands.

22 MR. MUNDIS: There is an English version transcript associated

23 with the tape. Perhaps we should just play the audio for the benefit of

24 the accused and the Bosnian speakers who might be following the

25 proceedings, so we will do that.

Page 729

1 Q. But, again, sir, if you see anyone or recognise the location,

2 simply say "stop," and we'll pause the videotape. Again, this is P06001,

3 beginning at minute 8, 19 seconds.

4 [Videotape played]

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I believe that this is the late

6 Major Tara. He was killed.

7 MR. MUNDIS: Your Honours, I do have a video -- a photo capture of

8 this portion of the tape which I would ask that the witness be shown, and

9 if this could be placed on the ELMO.

10 Q. PW-2, if you look at the photograph on the machine to your left,

11 do you recognise that person?

12 A. The image is very poor.

13 Q. Perhaps rather than looking at the screen, if you could actually

14 look at the hard copy of the photograph on the machine to your left. That

15 might be of assistance.

16 A. It's still of very poor quality. I believe that I recognised him

17 on the video, but this image is too blurred for me.

18 Q. That's fine. We'll continue, then, with the videotape, please.

19 MR. MUNDIS: I note, for the record, that the video is currently

20 paused at 10 minutes, 2 seconds. Go ahead and continue the video, please.

21 [Videotape played]

22 MR. MUNDIS:

23 Q. PW-2, we're now at 10 minutes 36 seconds on the videotape P06001.

24 Do you recognise anyone at this location of the tape?

25 A. I can see that there's a foreigner here next to him. Interpreting

Page 730

1 for him is the Travnik Mufti.

2 Q. Can you describe, sir, what the person you've indicated as the

3 "Travnik Mufti" is wearing in this video at 10 minutes 36 seconds?

4 A. I believe he's wearing the religious robe.

5 Q. Can you tell us what colour the religious robe that he's wearing

6 is?

7 A. It's either grey or white. I can't tell exactly.

8 Q. Is the person you've identified as the "Travnik Mufti" holding

9 anything in his hands?

10 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

11 MR. MUNDIS: We can continue, then, please, with the video.

12 Q. Let me ask you this, sir: Do you recognise this person who you've

13 indicated is a foreigner?

14 A. No.

15 MR. MUNDIS: I would ask the videotape continue, please.

16 [Videotape played]

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I believe that this is the barracks

18 where we were billeted when I had my training.

19 MR. MUNDIS:

20 Q. PW-2, do you know the name of this building that's in the

21 background of this videotape?

22 A. This was formerly a religious school, long before. It was then

23 seized by the Communists and used for other purposes. After the war, it

24 was turned into a religious school again. During the war, we used it as a

25 barracks.

Page 731

1 Q. Does this building have a name?

2 A. We call it "Medresa," which means "religious school."

3 MR. MUNDIS: And if we could continue with the videotape for just

4 a few more perhaps seconds.

5 [Videotape played]

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is Semir Terzic.

7 MR. MUNDIS: And I note for the record this is at the point of 13

8 minutes 41 seconds of this videotape. I think that's really all we need

9 to show of the tape.

10 I've been informed, Your Honours, from the registry officer that

11 this videotape is actually already in evidence as Exhibit 55. So if we

12 could get that confirmed, there would be obviously no need to tender this,

13 this video.

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Does the Registrar confirm that?

15 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm advised it is the same video, but a different

17 time code.

18 MR. MUNDIS: Perhaps we can -- we can do this one of two ways,

19 and, of course, I'm in the Trial Chamber's hands. We can tender this clip

20 into evidence or we can tender the entire videotape into evidence.

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Well --

22 MR. MUNDIS: We certainly want this tape and at least that portion

23 which was shown today, which is eight minutes 19 seconds until 13 minutes

24 42 seconds, to be an exhibit; but whether it's included in the entire

25 videotape or just this portion, we leave it to the Trial Chamber.

Page 732

1 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

2 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: I beg your pardon. Just the clip that was shown

4 from eight minutes 19 seconds to 13 minutes 42 seconds will be admitted

5 into evidence. May it please be given an exhibit number.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit 105.

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

8 MR. MUNDIS:

9 Q. PW-2, earlier this morning, you told us that the Travnik Muslim

10 Forces transformed into another unit. Can you describe for the Trial

11 Chamber approximately when that was and what this transformation was all

12 about?

13 A. It was the winter of 1992 and 1993. The Muslim Forces grew on to

14 a larger formation, which was called the 7th Muslim Brigade.

15 Q. And just for purposes of clarification, PW-2, if you know, did the

16 Travnik Muslim Forces become the entire 7th Muslim Brigade or were they a

17 component unit of that brigade?

18 A. They were the 1st Battalion of the 7th Muslim Brigade.

19 Q. At the time, sir, of this transformation, can you tell us

20 approximately how many men were in the Travnik Muslim Forces, if you know?

21 A. Several hundred.

22 Q. And do you know, PW-2, whether all of the members of the Travnik

23 Muslim Forces became members of the 1st Battalion of the 7th Muslim

24 Mountain Brigade or whether it was only some of them?

25 A. I can't tell you exactly. I know that the Muslim Forces became

Page 733

1 part of the 7th Muslim Brigade. I know that there was one company from

2 Vitez, since that's near Travnik; therefore, the area of Travnik and its

3 surrounding areas. I don't know the details of it, though.

4 Q. You mentioned earlier this morning a few names of the leaders of

5 the Travnik Muslim Forces, and I'd like to ask you about the role that

6 these individuals played after this transformation.

7 Do you know, sir, what position, if any, Asim Koricic assumed once

8 the Travnik Muslim Forces transformed into the 1st Battalion of the 7th

9 Muslim Brigade?

10 A. Asim Koricic was our commander for a while. Later on, for a

11 shorter period of time, he was even the commander of the 7th Muslim, but

12 I'm not that familiar with these matters.

13 Q. And when you say, as reflected on page 38, line 3, "Asim Koricic

14 was our commander for a while," what unit are you referring to when you

15 say he "was our commander for a while"?

16 A. When we were at Karaula, at the front lines there, he was --

17 rather, we were under his charge, and he was charged with planning actions

18 and so forth.

19 Q. And, again, sir, so that we're clear, when you were at Karaula,

20 what unit were you assigned to? What time period and what unit are you

21 talking about?

22 A. I was part of the Muslim Forces. That's all there is to it.

23 Q. Following the transformation of the Muslim Forces into the 1st

24 Battalion of the 7th Muslim Mountain Brigade, what position did Asim

25 Koricic hold?

Page 734

1 A. I believe he became the commander of the 7th Muslim in Zenica --

2 or of Zenica, but I don't know the details of it.

3 Q. What about, sir, Mr. Ahmed Adilovic, whom you described as one of

4 the leaders of the Travnik Muslim Forces; what position did he hold after

5 the Travnik Muslim Forces transformed into the 1st Battalion of the 7th

6 Muslim Mountain Brigade?

7 A. He, too, was a member of the command structure. I can't tell you

8 anything more specific than that. He was one of the command structure,

9 and I don't know what his function was.

10 Q. Let me ask you this, sir: If you know, when you say "a member of

11 the command structure," was he a member of the command structure of the

12 1st Battalion of the 7th Muslim Mountain Brigade or the command structure

13 of the 7th Muslim Mountain Brigade, itself, the higher headquarters; do

14 you know?

15 A. When I joined the Muslim Forces, I believe he was, but I don't

16 know what happened later on. I know that the army, the armija, was being

17 formed and the situation changed. For a while, the religious influence

18 was quite -- how shall I put it? People who were religious leaders

19 brought more pressure to bear; and later on, the armija was -- or rather

20 took a different course in going about its formation. I was referring to

21 the Muslim Forces, that is.

22 MR. MUNDIS: I would ask, Your Honours, that the witness now be

23 shown the document which was previously marked P01027. That's P01027.

24 Q. PW-2, do you see a document on the screen in front of you?

25 A. Yes.

Page 735

1 Q. Have you ever seen this document before?

2 A. I have.

3 Q. Do you recall when and where you saw this document?

4 A. I saw it at the barracks of ours we referred to as "Medresa."

5 There was one room set aside for prayers. It was there, on a shelf, that

6 I saw several copies of this. I even read through its contents, though I

7 can't say I recall much of it.

8 Q. Do you recall, PW-2, whether you ever saw any other soldiers of

9 your unit carrying or reading this book, booklet?

10 A. Probably somebody was reading it in that room. I personally did

11 not take a copy of it, but others might have. I don't know whether

12 somebody took a copy and carried it away.

13 Q. Do you know, PW-2, who placed the copies of this booklet in the

14 prayer room at the Medresa in Travnik?

15 A. I don't know. It was simply there.

16 MR. MUNDIS: Your Honours, we'd ask that this document be admitted

17 into evidence and it be given an exhibit number.

18 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Mundis, we will do so, but only if you would

19 care to tell us what it is.

20 MR. MUNDIS: Your Honour, the booklet, if I can call it that, we

21 believe speaks for itself in terms of the contents of the material

22 contained in that -- in that booklet. The witness has indicated he

23 doesn't recall the specifics of what's in the document, but there are

24 certainly parts of the document that we believe are relevant to this case.

25 JUDGE HARHOFF: Excuse me. But it's hard for the Chamber to admit

Page 736

1 something that we have no idea of what it is. We can't read the front

2 page. We don't know what the contents are.

3 MR. MUNDIS: There is an English version of it available in

4 e-court, but I see my learned colleague is on her feet.

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Vidovic.

6 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I am opposed to the

7 admission of this document because not a single part of it was shown to

8 the witness, save for the cover page. I really don't know what this is

9 about. If the Prosecutor wishes to have it admitted, then he can do this

10 through a different witness who can comment on the contents thereof. This

11 witness has done no such thing.

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Mundis.

13 MR. MUNDIS: Your Honours, my colleague is looking for certain

14 portions of this document, which we'll put to the witness in just a moment

15 and see if he has any recollection of reading those portions. But in

16 terms of a foundation for the admission of the document, I believe that

17 the questions which the witness has answered are a sufficient foundation

18 for the document to be admitted into evidence.

19 And, of course, the issue of weight is an entirely different

20 matter. But at the moment, perhaps. If I can just have a second while my

21 colleague looks for the specific page, we'll put some questions to the

22 witness concerning the document.

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: That will be helpful. We'll wait a little bit.

24 MR. MUNDIS: I've been informed that it's page 24 in English, and

25 we're looking for the corresponding B/C/S page. If we could have page 24

Page 737

1 in the English version brought up, please.

2 I've been informed, Your Honours, it's page 14 in the Bosnian

3 language version of the document. It's the page on the right-hand side.

4 That's the left-hand side. If we can go to the right-hand side, please.

5 Thank you.

6 Q. PW-2, I'd ask you if you could -- can you see the page on the

7 right-hand screen or the right-hand page that's on the screen in front of

8 you?

9 A. Yes, I can. I can see the page.

10 Q. Can you take just a moment, sir, to read to yourself what's

11 contained on this page in front of you, and then I'll ask some questions

12 of you.

13 Have you had an opportunity, PW-2, to read this page of the

14 document?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. A few moments ago, as reflected on page 39, lines 19 and 20, the

17 transcript indicates that you said, "I even read through its contents,

18 though I can't say I recall much of it." And my question to you now, sir,

19 is: Having had the opportunity to look at this page of the document, do

20 you recall reading this portion of the booklet on any prior occasion?

21 A. Absolutely, I don't remember the contents of this booklet. I must

22 have read something, but I can't remember the contents. I remember some

23 guidelines, however, that we received during preparations for combat from

24 Semir Terzic or Ahmed Adilovic, which is equal to the first part of the

25 text. As for the second part, no.

Page 738

1 Q. And when you say, sir, that you received these guidelines that are

2 equal to the first part of the text, what are you -- what are you

3 referring to, specifically?

4 A. When we were in training, with Semir Terzic in Stari Grad above

5 Traning, he explained to us some of the rules about the Geneva Conventions

6 which correspond to the Islamic rules. There was a signatory of those

7 conventions, and religious rules implied them as well. Ahmed Adilovic

8 also spoke to us, and he explained those things to us from the religious

9 point of view.

10 Q. And now, sir, with respect to the second portion or the second

11 paragraph of this page of the document, do you recall, sir, receiving any

12 type of instructions concerning what's contained in the second paragraph

13 of this document?

14 A. We received instructions about attack, about the action. After

15 the action, there were no such instructions. The instructions were part

16 of the plan of action for taking certain positions or features.

17 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, PW-2.

18 Again, Your Honours, the Prosecution would ask this document be

19 admitted into evidence, based upon the witness's answers and the simple

20 fact that this document, as he indicated, was -- copies of this document

21 were available in the Medresa in Travnik.

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

23 please be given an exhibit number.

24 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit 106.

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Madam Vidovic.

Page 739

1 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have understood

2 your instruction on handling documents that you gave us at the beginning

3 of the trial, relative to long documents. The instruction said that

4 relevant parts of long documents are presented to the witnesses, the

5 witnesses offer their comments, and those are admitted.

6 The Prosecutor has now been using long -- 100 pages' long

7 documents on several occasions. He has also been using different groups of

8 documents. He then proceeds to show the witnesses a small portion of such

9 documents, and then has the entire document admitted as part of the

10 evidence.

11 Your Honours, I don't think that this is in keeping with the

12 Rules. I believe that what needs to be or has to be admitted is only

13 those portions that are commented on by the witness.

14 You have been able to see what the position of the witness is. If

15 he has been shown more of the documents, I believe the position would be

16 different.

17 Also, at the beginning of the trial, we had the situation when

18 Mr. Kohlmann's books or part thereof were presented to the witness by the

19 Defence. The Prosecutor reacted and only one page of that exhibit was

20 admitted. We were not allowed to enter the whole book into evidence.

21 That's why I believe that tendering exhibits into evidence in this way

22 abborates from the instructions you that provided to us at the very start

23 of this trial.

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Mundis.

25 MR. MUNDIS: The Prosecution has no objection to the front page

Page 740

1 and the page that was shown to the witness being admitted into evidence.

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Mundis.

3 The Chamber will then admit the cover page of the document and the

4 pages shown to the witness only. May they please be given an exhibit

5 number.

6 Thank you very much, Madam Vidovic.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit 106.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

9 MR. MUNDIS: I would ask at this point in time that the witness be

10 shown the document marked P01019. That's P01019.

11 Q. PW-2, do you now see the document in front of you on the screen?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Can you tell us what the date of the document is that you see on

14 the screen before you, please?

15 A. 19 November 1992.

16 MR. MUNDIS: And if we could please focus on paragraph 1.1 of this

17 document, which is a little bit below the middle of the page under

18 "Organisational Preparations," 1.1 (i).

19 Q. Can you tell us what it says under "Formation"?

20 A. Yes, I can.

21 Q. Can you tell us, PW-2, whether this document corresponds

22 approximately to the time period that you were aware of the formation of

23 the 7th Muslim Mountain Brigade?

24 A. I don't know the date. I told you it was winter, the winter of

25 1992 or 1993. I don't know the date, however. I can't even give you an

Page 741

1 approximation.

2 Q. Do you see, sir, the first -- can you read out the first sentence

3 under "Formation"? Can you read that out loud, please?

4 A. "Formation. Form a mountain brigade under the name of the 7th

5 Muslim Mountain Brigade from the RBH Army armed units currently engaged on

6 the Vlasic plateau. Form the brigade in accordance with the temporary," I

7 can't read this, "as a mountain brigade."

8 Q. That's fine, PW-2. Can you tell us, sir, what RBH Army armed

9 units were engaged on the Vlasic plateau in November 1992, to the best of

10 your knowledge?

11 A. Could you please repeat your question?

12 Q. The portion of the document, sir, that you just read out indicates

13 that there were RBH Army armed units engaged on the Vlasic plateau on or

14 about 19 November 1992, and my question to you, sir, is: Do you know

15 which RBH Army armed units were engaged on the Vlasic plateau at that

16 time?

17 A. The 1st Krajina Brigade was engaged there, local brigades, several

18 units, a lot of units. The territory is rather large.

19 MR. MUNDIS: Your Honours, we'd ask that this document, P01019, be

20 admitted into evidence and be given an exhibit number.

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: P01019 will be admitted into evidence. May it

22 please be given an exhibit number.

23 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit 107.

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

25 MR. MUNDIS:

Page 742

1 Q. PW-2, let me ask you, to the extent that you know, can you tell us

2 about the structure of the 7th Muslim Mountain Brigade shortly after the

3 Travnik Muslim Forces transformed into the 1st Battalion of that brigade?

4 A. Could you please clarify? What structure do you have in mind?

5 Q. Below the brigade level, to the best of your knowledge, was the

6 7th Muslim Mountain Brigade organised into smaller units?

7 A. There are battalions and companies and also platoons. It was

8 organised as a classical military formation.

9 Q. Can you tell us, sir, how many battalions the 7th Muslim Mountain

10 Brigade had at the time of the transformation, as you've described it?

11 A. Possibly three, but I don't know exactly.

12 Q. Can you tell us where the headquarters of the 7th Muslim Mountain

13 Brigade was located?

14 A. In Zenica.

15 Q. Do you know where in Zenica?

16 A. No.

17 Q. The 1st Battalion of the 7th Muslim Mountain Brigade, where was

18 that battalion headquartered, if you know?

19 A. In the town of Travnik.

20 Q. Do you know the location in the town of Travnik where the 1st

21 Battalion of the 7th Muslim Brigade was located?

22 A. I've already told you, close to the police station. It's a

23 different building. It's not the Medresa building.

24 Q. Was it the same location as the headquarters of the Travnik Muslim

25 Forces or was it a different location?

Page 743

1 A. I apologise. The command was there while the Muslim Forces were

2 there. Later on, I don't know where the command was. I didn't follow

3 that.

4 Q. Once the 1st Battalion of the 7th Muslim Mountain Brigade was

5 formed, what happened to the Travnik Muslim Forces?

6 A. The Muslim Forces became the 1st Battalion of the 7th Muslim

7 Brigade.

8 Q. Did the Travnik -- my question actually is: Did the Travnik

9 Muslim Forces continue to exist after the creation of the 1st Battalion of

10 the 7th Muslim Mountain Brigade?

11 A. No, I don't think so.

12 Q. Now, PW-2, can you tell us, if you know, whether the 1st Battalion

13 of the 7th Muslim Mountain Brigade consisted exclusively of Bosniak

14 members?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. To your knowledge, sir, did the 1st Battalion of the 7th Muslim

17 Mountain Brigade ever engage in combat operation with foreigners, foreign

18 fighters?

19 A. Yes. We were often in the same field while the Muslim Forces

20 existed and later on, although they had separate accommodation. In any

21 case, they were separate from us, but we shared the same terrain and we

22 engaged in the same operations.

23 Q. Can you tell the Trial Chamber or can you give us some examples of

24 locations or operations where the 1st Battalion of the 7th Muslim Mountain

25 Brigade engaged in combat operation with foreign fighters?

Page 744

1 A. It was Bijelo Bucje or the area leading towards Donji Vakuf. This

2 is where the Arabs were billeted, or at least one group of Arabs. We also

3 would go to that area, and we participated in the same combat operations.

4 Q. Can you describe for the Trial Chamber how this worked, in terms

5 of the 1st Battalion of the 7th Muslim Mountain Brigade and the foreign

6 fighters in the field? Can you elaborate upon -- when you say, "We

7 participated in the same combat operations," what does that mean?

8 A. After the fall of Jajce and Karaula, the Arabs, or some of them at

9 least, because there had been a lot of groups of Arabs, one group of Arabs

10 arrived in Bijelo Bucje. They were always there. They didn't go into

11 town or anywhere else. This is where they stayed, where they were

12 billeted.

13 We, from the 1st Battalion, also arrived there on that same line

14 of defence. The 1st Krajina Brigade also took positions there, and there

15 was also a local unit that manned that line.

16 When the Chetniks attacked us in that territory, we all

17 participated in defending that territory.

18 Q. Can you give the Trial Chamber, PW-2, an indication or an

19 approximation of the distance, the physical distance, between the 1st

20 Battalion of the 7th Muslim Mountain Brigade and these foreigners when you

21 were on this line at Bijelo Bucje?

22 A. We were in one part of the village, close to one part of the front

23 line, and they were in the other part of the village, again, close to

24 another part of the defence line. The front line was some 200 metres away

25 from the village. The front line was long. We were on one side of it;

Page 745

1 they were on the other side of that same line.

2 The 1st Krajina Unit also came from time to time. It all

3 depended. It all depended on where the direction of the attack was, and

4 we would then all be transferred to where the brunt of the attack came

5 from.

6 Q. And during this time period that you were in Bijelo Bucje, can you

7 give us an idea of the physical proximity that your unit was with respect

8 to the foreign fighters, in terms of how far away from you and your unit

9 were these foreign fighters during this time period that you were in the

10 village?

11 A. Between 500 metres and one kilometre, but not more than one

12 kilometre.

13 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] I would like to ask a question.

14 Witness, who was ensuring the coordination between the 1st

15 Battalion of the 7th Muslim Brigade and the groups of Arabs? Who was it,

16 can you tell us?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The Arabs were there all the time.

18 That's where they were stationed, and I really don't know. The attacks

19 happened very often. There was a lot of fighting. I can't tell you

20 exactly. From time to time, they had some interpreters. Maybe the

21 interpreters provided some sort of coordination. I can't really tell you.

22 There was also some Turks there, not only Arabs.

23 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] And just one other question.

24 Who was commanding those units? Was it the Arabs or was it the

25 Bosnian Muslims? Was there a one-and-only command? Was there a united

Page 746

1 command?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The Arabs were rather autonomous in

3 their doings. They had their own thing, and they did their own thing.

4 For example, I remember an Arab whose name was Abu Ubeidah, that's what

5 they called him, Abu Ubeidah or something of the sort. He commanded the

6 Arabs. As far as us Bosniaks were concerned, we would arrive from Travnik

7 whenever there was an attack; in other words, we had our command in

8 Travnik.

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Witness, let's try and understand what the Judge is

10 trying to find out.

11 When you are on the field and fighting, surely there should be one

12 command to coordinate the actions of the two groups, because you were

13 fighting as allies, were you not?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] After the fall of the Jajce and

15 Karaula --

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Wait a minute. Wait a minute. Just a second. The

17 Judge is asking you not after the fall of Karaula. As you are fighting on

18 the field, were you, the Bosniak group, fighting as allies with the Arab

19 group?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Let me put it this way: We fought

21 together, which means that we launched counter-attacks in response to the

22 Serb attacks. Who provided commands, who commanded what, I really

23 wouldn't know. I was just a foot soldier.

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. So you don't know who was commanding the two

25 groups; is that your short answer?

Page 747

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know that Abu Ubeidah was the

2 commander of the Arab group. We arrived in different companies or

3 platoons, and we each had our own commanders. Who among them coordinated

4 those activities, I really wouldn't know.

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: And did your commanders also coordinate the

6 activities together with the commanders of the Arabs?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know what the coordination

8 was. There were very frequent attacks and actions. We were running

9 around in various directions. There were constant attacks. We had only

10 infantry weapons. We were attacked by tanks.

11 I really don't know what the chain of command was. I know that we

12 were sent very often to restore the line, because the line would fall

13 quite frequently and we were sent there to restore the lines.

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

15 Now that I also started asking questions, can I just ask something

16 about this document before it's removed from the screen.

17 Before this document was placed on the screen, you talked of the

18 formation of the 7th Muslim Brigade. Now, my question to you is: Is the

19 7th Muslim Brigade the same thing as the 7th Muslim Mountain Brigade that

20 you have begun to talk about since this talk document came on the screen?

21 In the one name, there is no word "Mountain"; in the other there

22 is the word "Mountain."

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We called our brigade "The 7th

24 Muslim Brigade." As for this name "Mountain Brigade," that's not what we

25 called ourselves. We didn't call our brigade that.

Page 748

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

2 Mr. Mundis.

3 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Your Honours.

4 I would ask now that the witness be shown the document P01043.

5 That's P01043.

6 Q. And while that's being done, sir, do you have an approximate -- or

7 can you give us an approximation number of Arabs that you recall seeing

8 around the area of Bijelo Bucje?

9 A. I don't know the exact number. Not more than 50, let's say.

10 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you. I would ask if we could please -- you'll

11 see paragraphs 1 and 2; and under 2, there's (a) and (b). If we could

12 please have paragraph 2(b) highlighted or enlarged on the screen, please,

13 2(b).

14 Q. PW-2, do you see the document on the screen in front of you?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Do you see the final sentence of paragraph 2(b) that makes

17 reference to "around 60 Arabs and Turks"?

18 A. I can see that it says that there are 60 Arabs and Turks who have

19 not been included or something like that.

20 Q. And you also see, under paragraph 2(a), that this document - as

21 well as paragraph 2(b) - is referring to the 1st Battalion of the 7th

22 Muslim Brigade; is that correct?

23 A. It says that there is some sort of a disposition here, but I'm not

24 familiar with the document.

25 Q. Do you see the reference, in paragraph 2(a), to 325 soldiers

Page 749

1 engaged in Bijelo Bucje that includes around 180 men?

2 A. Yes, I can see that.

3 Q. And what was the time period, sir, to the best of your

4 recollection, that you were engaged in the area around Bijelo Bucje?

5 A. For a long time, the front line stretched around Bijelo Bucje. I

6 went up there quite a few times. In the meantime, we had go to the other

7 front lines in accordance with our orders. I don't know the exact time

8 period. From the fall of Karaula, we would go there quite often and for a

9 long time, perhaps six months. I'm not sure.

10 MR. MUNDIS: Your Honours, we'd ask that P01043 be admitted into

11 evidence and be given an exhibit number, please.

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Document P01043 is admitted into evidence. May it

13 please be given an exhibit number.

14 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit 108.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Would that be convenient?

16 MR. MUNDIS: It would indeed, Mr. President.

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Let's take a break and come back at quarter to

18 1:00.

19 Court adjourned.

20 --- Recess taken at 12.25 p.m.

21 --- On resuming at 12.45 p.m.

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Mundis.

23 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President.

24 Q. PW-2, can you tell us for how long you remained a member of the

25 1st Battalion of the 7th Muslim Mountain Brigade?

Page 750

1 A. I don't know exactly. I was a member of the battalion until I

2 joined the El Mujahed Unit.

3 Q. And, PW-2, do you recall approximately when it was that you joined

4 the El Mujahed Unit?

5 A. After the first clashes with the Croatian Defence Council, I

6 joined that unit.

7 Q. Can you give us, sir, an approximate date or at least month and

8 year when you joined the El Mujahed Unit?

9 A. In the summer of 1993.

10 Q. PW-2, at the time you joined the El Mujahed Unit, did that unit

11 have a name or an official name, to the best of your knowledge?

12 A. I know of the name of El Mujahed, or rather, El Mujahedin.

13 Q. At the time, sir, in the summer of 1993, when you joined the El

14 Mujahedin Unit, where was that unit headquartered?

15 A. At Mehuric, near Travnik.

16 Q. Can you be more specific, sir, with respect to the location of the

17 El Mujahedin Unit in Mehuric?

18 A. This is perhaps some 20 kilometres away from Travnik.

19 Q. Did the location where the El Mujahedin Unit had its headquarters

20 in Mehuric have a name? The specific location where that headquarter was

21 based, did it have a name?

22 A. It was called Mehuric. I'm not from that area originally, and it

23 is quite possible that it had another name. I was not familiar with the

24 territory.

25 Q. Can you describe the location where the El Mujahedin Unit was

Page 751

1 located in Mehuric?

2 A. From the center of the village, perhaps some 500 metres away from

3 the center of the village.

4 Q. And, sir, at the time you joined that unit, do you know who the

5 commander of that El Mujahedin Unit was?

6 A. The commander was Dr. Haris.

7 Q. And after joining that unit, sir, in the summer of 1993, were you

8 engaged with the El Mujahedin Unit in any combat operations?

9 A. Of course. After joining that unit, I was with them in some

10 areas.

11 Q. Focusing your attention, PW-2, on 1993 and the second half of that

12 year, can you give us some of the locations where you engaged in combat

13 operations as a member of the El Mujahedin Unit?

14 A. Zabilje, near Vitez, and Kruscica, near Vitez.

15 Q. These operations, sir, in Zabilje, near Vitez, and Kruscica, near

16 Vitez, were any other military units involved in these combat operations?

17 A. I arrived in Zabilje as part of a second group sent as a form of

18 assistance. I only saw members of the El Mujahed group there, no one

19 else. At Kruscica, the 17th Krajina Brigade was also stationed.

20 Q. The 17th Krajina Brigade, PW-2, was a unit of what military force?

21 A. Of the Army of the BH.

22 Q. Do you recall, sir, approximately when the military operations in

23 Kruscica took place, what time period?

24 A. September 1993.

25 Q. PW-2, other than Dr. Haris, do you recall the names of any of the

Page 752

1 leadership of the El Mujahedin Unit at the time you joined that unit in

2 the summer of 1993?

3 A. Vahidin and Muatez.

4 MR. MUNDIS: Your Honours, at this time, I'd ask that the witness

5 be shown Exhibit 92, which is the photo booklet. We can do this

6 electronically, and I would ask the witness to identify any persons that

7 he might see in that exhibit.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: May we see the exhibit, please.

9 MR. MUNDIS:

10 Q. Witness, do you see a photograph on the screen in front of you?

11 A. I do.

12 Q. I'm going to show you, sir, a series of photographs. I believe

13 there are 22 pages. I'm going to ask you if you recognise any of the

14 individuals depicted in these photographs; and if you do, if you can

15 simply indicate that you recognise them, and please tell us the name or

16 names of the persons in the photographs.

17 Let's begin, then, with Exhibit 92, page 1. Do you recognise this

18 person?

19 A. This is Sheikh Enver, "rahmetulali."

20 Q. Let's go to page 2, please.

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Madam Vidovic.

22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I'm sorry to

23 interrupt my learned friend from the Prosecution. However, the witness

24 said -- the witness said "Sheikh Enver," and then he said, "the deceased,"

25 whereas what was entered in the transcript may stand for something the

Page 753

1 witness did not say.

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Indeed, what does that stand for, the word in

3 brackets? Does anybody know?

4 MR. MUNDIS: The word in brackets indicates, for the benefit of

5 the transcribers, that that's a phonetic, and they'll check that against

6 the audiotapes. But let me try to clear this up.

7 Q. PW-2, this person you've identified as Sheikh Enver, do you know

8 this person's last name or family name?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Do you know, sir, if this person that you identified as Sheikh

11 Enver is still alive?

12 A. He was killed.

13 Q. Do you recall, sir, approximately when he was killed and the

14 circumstances by which he was killed?

15 A. He was killed at Zepce by the HVO members. This was toward the

16 end of the war, or the war may have been over by then. I don't know

17 exactly.

18 Q. Do you recall, PW-2, the approximate month and year that Sheikh

19 Enver was killed by the HVO at Zepce?

20 A. In late 1995.

21 Q. Okay. Sir, now before you is page 2 of Exhibit 92. Do you

22 recognise the person depicted in these photographs?

23 A. That's the same person.

24 Q. And what do you mean, sir, by "the same person"?

25 A. Sheikh Enver, the late Sheikh Enver.

Page 754

1 MR. MUNDIS: Can we please go to page 3 of Exhibit 92.

2 Q. Do you recognise this person, sir?

3 A. This is also Sheikh Enver.

4 Q. And the next page.

5 MR. MUNDIS: That would be page 4 of Exhibit 92, please.

6 Q. Do you recognise this person, PW-2?

7 A. I believe that this is the same person we saw earlier in that

8 footage from Travnik.

9 MR. MUNDIS: The next photograph, please.

10 Q. Actually, before we do that, do you know the name of this person?

11 A. No.

12 MR. MUNDIS: Next page, please. I believe this is page six, 6,

13 Exhibit 92.

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Is it page 6 or page 5?

15 MR. MUNDIS: Page 5.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's the same person as before, as

17 the one we saw on the photograph just before.

18 MR. MUNDIS: If we could go to page 6 of Exhibit 92, please.

19 Q. Do you recognise this person, PW-2?

20 A. This is the late Vahidin.

21 Q. PW-2, do you know what the role or function of Vahidin was?

22 A. He was a member of the command structure of the El Mujahed

23 Detachment.

24 Q. And do you know, sir, what his specific function was within the

25 command structure of the El Mujahed Detachment?

Page 755

1 A. He was the commander for actions for combat.

2 Q. You told us, PW-2, that this is the late Vahidin. Do you know,

3 sir, the circumstances and time period in which Vahidin was killed?

4 A. He was killed on the 2nd of October, 1993.

5 Q. If I could just interrupt you at that point, sir.

6 MR. MUNDIS: Perhaps, Mr. President, it's best we go into private

7 session for just a couple of moments.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into private session.

9 [Private session]

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 756

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11 Page 756 redacted. Private session

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 757

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 [Open session]

17 THE REGISTRAR: We are back in open session, Your Honour.

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

19 MR. MUNDIS: I would ask that we now go to page 7 of Exhibit 92,

20 please.

21 Q. PW-2, do you recognise this person?

22 A. This person looks like the late Vahidin, but I wouldn't be able to

23 tell you 100 per cent.

24 MR. MUNDIS: If we can go to page 8, please, of Exhibit 92.

25 Q. The same question, sir. Do you recognise this person?

Page 758

1 A. This person also looks like the late Vahidin, but I'm not 100 per

2 cent sure.

3 MR. MUNDIS: Please go to page 9 of Exhibit 92, please.

4 Q. Do you recognise the person or persons depicted in these two

5 photographs?

6 A. It is possible that this is Vahidin.

7 MR. MUNDIS: Can we go to page 10 of Exhibit 92, please.

8 Q. Let's focus first, sir, on the top photograph of page 10 of

9 Exhibit 92. Do you recognise anyone in this photograph?

10 A. I recognise the Travnik Mufti.

11 Q. Do you know the name of the Travnik Mufti?

12 A. Nusret, and I can't recall his last name.

13 Q. And, again, for the record, sir, which person in this photograph

14 do you recognise as the Travnik Mufti? Can you describe what that person

15 is wearing?

16 A. His robe, and he has his head wear. That's the religious attire.

17 Q. Do you recognise, sir, anyone else in this photograph?

18 A. No.

19 MR. MUNDIS: Can we look, please, at the bottom photograph.

20 Q. Do you recognise anyone in that photograph?

21 A. I recognise the mufti. I had also seen this person wearing the

22 blue beret. He was also one of the group, but I can't recall his name.

23 Q. And, sir, when you say "the group," what group are you referring

24 to?

25 A. Please repeat your question.

Page 759

1 Q. Sir, you said that you recall seeing the person wearing the blue

2 beret and that he was also one of the group, and I'm asking you what group

3 you were referring to when you said you recognised the person wearing the

4 blue beret.

5 A. I believe that he belonged to a local unit. He was not a member

6 of the El Mujahed Detachment.

7 MR. MUNDIS: Can we please go to page 11 of Exhibit 92.

8 Q. Again, let's focus on the top photograph, please. Sir, do you

9 recognise any of the people in this photograph?

10 A. I recognise the mufti again.

11 Q. And, again, for the benefit of the record, can you describe what

12 the mufti is wearing?

13 A. His religious attire.

14 Q. Do you recognise anyone else in this photograph, sir?

15 A. I'm not sure. Sakib Mahmuljin could be one of them, but it's not

16 a very clear photo, so I can't be 100 per cent sure.

17 Q. The person that you think might be Sakib Mahmuljin, which person

18 is he in the photograph? Can you describe him in the photograph, please?

19 A. To the right, the last person on the right in the photo, but I'm

20 not sure. It's a bad photo.

21 Q. I understand that, sir. This person that you believe might be

22 Sakib Mahmuljin, where are his hands in the photograph?

23 A. Facing downwards.

24 MR. MUNDIS: Can we go to the lower photograph, please.

25 Q. Do you recognise anyone in this photograph, sir?

Page 760

1 A. I recognise the late General Alic [as interpreted].

2 Q. The transcript, sir, has captured the name "the late General

3 Alic." Is that correct?

4 A. Alagic.

5 Q. And the person that you recognise as being the late General

6 Alagic, where is he in the photograph?

7 A. In the middle of the photo.

8 Q. In which row?

9 A. The first row.

10 Q. What is on -- what, if anything, is on the head of the person that

11 you've identified as the late General Alagic?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Is the person that you've recognised as the late General Alagic

14 wearing a hat or not wearing a hat?

15 A. No, he's not.

16 MR. MUNDIS: Can we go to the next page, please, page 12 of

17 Exhibit 92.

18 Q. Do you recognise anyone in this photograph, sir?

19 A. Dr. Haris, the late Dr. Haris.

20 Q. Which person in the photograph is the late Dr. Haris?

21 A. He's holding a mic in his hand.

22 MR. MUNDIS: If we can go to page 13 of Exhibit 92.

23 Q. Focusing your attention, sir, on the top photograph, do you

24 recognise anyone in that photograph?

25 A. The late Dr. Haris.

Page 761

1 Q. Which person in the photograph have you recognised as the late

2 Dr. Haris?

3 A. The one in the front of the photo, the one that you can see best

4 at the left of the photo.

5 Q. And the lower photograph on page 13 of Exhibit 92, do you

6 recognise anyone in this photograph?

7 A. Also the same person, Dr. Haris, the late Dr. Haris.

8 MR. MUNDIS: Can we go to page 14 of Exhibit 92, please.

9 Q. Do you recognise anyone in these photographs, sir?

10 A. In all these photos, I see the late Dr. Haris.

11 Q. Which person in these photographs is the late Dr. Haris?

12 A. The person holding a mic in his hand.

13 Q. Do you recognise anyone else in these photographs, sir?

14 A. No, but I suppose that the person standing next to him is the

15 interpreter, but I can't be sure of that because I can't see his face very

16 well.

17 MR. MUNDIS: Can we please go to page 15 of Exhibit 92.

18 Q. And while that's coming up, sir, do you know, when you say "the

19 interpreter," do you know who was the interpreter or who served as

20 interpreters for Dr. Haris?

21 A. There's several men. It depended on what the requirement was. I

22 know that for a while, it was Malik Basic, but there are other

23 interpreters as well.

24 Q. Turning to page 15 of Exhibit 92, do you recognise this person?

25 A. This is Abu Hamza. That's what they called him. He is from

Page 762

1 Syria.

2 MR. MUNDIS: Can we go, please, to page 16 of Exhibit 92.

3 Q. Do you recognise this person, PW-2?

4 A. This is Aiman from Syria.

5 MR. MUNDIS: Page 17 of Exhibit 92, please.

6 Q. Witness, do you recognise this person?

7 A. Abu Maali.

8 MR. MUNDIS: Can we go to page 18 of Exhibit 92, please.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Abu Maali.

10 MR. MUNDIS: Page 19 of Exhibit 92, please.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This could also be Abu Maali, but,

12 again, this is a bad photo and I can't be really sure.

13 MR. MUNDIS: Page 20 of Exhibit 92, please.

14 Q. Do you recognise this individual, PW-2?

15 A. No.

16 MR. MUNDIS: Can we go to page 21 of Exhibit 92, please.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is Muatez, also deceased.

18 MR. MUNDIS: And, finally, can we go to page 22 of Exhibit 92,

19 please.

20 Q. Do you recognise this individual, Witness?

21 A. No.

22 MR. MUNDIS: And the last page of this exhibit, page 23 of Exhibit

23 92.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

25 MR. MUNDIS:

Page 763

1 Q. Now, Witness PW-2, that's the end of that exhibit. It's already

2 in evidence, so --

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: But did we get an answer to this page 23?

4 MR. MUNDIS: It says: "No."

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Oh: "No."

6 MR. MUNDIS:

7 Q. I take it, sir, you don't recognise this last photograph, the

8 person depicted in that photograph.

9 A. [No interpretation]

10 Q. Now, PW-2, can you tell us how long you remained a member of the

11 El Mujahedin Detachment after joining that unit in the summer of 1993?

12 A. I was a member of that unit until the end of the war.

13 Q. Can you tell us, sir, the members of the El Mujahedin Detachment

14 during the time period you were in that unit, where did they come from?

15 A. Well, there were a lot of foreigners from various countries, and

16 there were also locals, Bosniaks.

17 MR. MUNDIS: I would ask that the Exhibit P01835 be pulled up,

18 P01835.

19 Q. And while that's coming up, PW-2, you indicated there were a lot

20 of foreigners from various countries. Can you give some examples of some

21 of the countries that these foreign members of the El Mujahedin Unit came

22 from?

23 A. I know that some were from Egypt; the others from Algiers; from a

24 number of Arab countries; from several countries.

25 MR. MUNDIS: If we could please go to the next page, I'm sorry,

Page 764

1 page 2 of this document in both languages.

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Just before we do that, you kept on mentioning,

3 when you were going through the photographs, that some people came from

4 Syria. Were those also members of the Mujahedin, the El Mujahedin?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.

7 MR. MUNDIS:

8 Q. PW-2, do you now see a list in front of you?

9 A. Yes, I do.

10 Q. Do you recognise, sir, any of the names contained on this list?

11 A. No.

12 MR. MUNDIS: Can we go to the next page, please.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Abu Haris --

14 MR. MUNDIS: Sorry.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- number 1; number 2, Abu Maali -

16 I am familiar only with the first parts of their names. I don't know

17 their last names - number 3, Muatez; number 10; number 21.

18 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, PW-2.

19 Your Honours, we would ask that P01835 be admitted into evidence

20 and it be given an exhibit number, please.

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: P01835 is admitted into evidence. May it please be

22 given an exhibit number.

23 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit 109.

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

25 MR. MUNDIS: I'd ask now that P02058, P02058, be shown to the

Page 765

1 witness, please, and I would ask that -- actually, we need to go to page 6

2 in the B/C/S version, page 10 in the English translation.

3 I would ask that we go into private session for a few questions

4 concerning this document, please.

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into private session.

6 [Private session]

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 [Open session]

22 THE REGISTRAR: We are back in open session, Your Honour.

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

24 Yes, Mr. Mundis.

25 MR. MUNDIS: We would ask that P02058 be admitted into evidence

Page 766

1 and it be given an exhibit number, please.

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: May we move into private session? I'm sorry, I'm

3 lost.

4 Where are we?

5 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, I'm about to assign an exhibit

6 number to this document.

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay.

8 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit number 110.

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. That's document P02058.

10 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the Presiding Judge, please.

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. Sorry.

12 Now, we have now assigned a number.

13 THE REGISTRAR: Sorry, Your Honour. That will be Exhibit number

14 110.

15 MR. MUNDIS: I'd ask that the witness now be shown P02761.

16 P02761.

17 Q. PW-2, during the time that you were a member of the El Mujahedin

18 Unit, from the summer of 1993 until the end of the war, on any occasion

19 did that unit receive any commendations or awards?

20 A. I don't know whether the unit received anything, but some

21 individuals in the unit did.

22 MR. MUNDIS: Could we please go, in the B/C/S version of this

23 document, to page 29.

24 Sorry, I stand corrected. If we could go to page 2 in both the

25 B/C/S and English versions. I apologise for that.

Page 767

1 Q. Sir, do you recognise any of the names contained on this page of

2 this document, P02761?

3 A. Number 30, Adnan Pezo; 31, Nurudin Alihodza.

4 Q. Witness PW-2, these two people you just identified, Adnan Pezo and

5 Nurudin Alihodza, how did you know them?

6 A. I knew Nurudin Alihodza from the beginning of the Muslim Forces

7 war. I was in his village on the front line during the conflict with the

8 HVO because the front line was next to his house.

9 And I also know Adnan Pezo. I met him when I first came back from

10 captivity. That's when I met him.

11 MR. MUNDIS: Your Honours, I note the time. We would ask that

12 this document be admitted into evidence and be given an exhibit number.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

14 please be given an exhibit number.

15 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit 111.

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

17 Mr. Mundis.

18 MR. MUNDIS: Your Honour, I note the time. It had been my

19 intention to finish today. I believe need ten to 15 minutes tops tomorrow,

20 if that is acceptable, to complete the direct examination.

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

22 The Court will adjourn until tomorrow at 9.00 in the morning in

23 this same courtroom, Courtroom I.

24 Thank you very much. Court adjourned.

25 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.46 p.m.,

Page 768

1 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 18th day of

2 July, 2007, at 9.00 a.m.

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25