1 Friday, 9 November 2007

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.00 a.m.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Good morning to everybody.

7 Will you please call the case, Mr. Registrar.

8 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you, and good morning, Your Honours. This

9 is case number IT-04-83-T, the Prosecutor versus Rasim Delic.

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

11 Can we have appearances, please, for today, starting with the

12 Prosecution.

13 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President. Good morning, Your

14 Honours, Counsel, and everyone in and around the courtroom. Daryl Mundis

15 and Aditya Menon for the Prosecution, assisted by our case manager, Alma

16 Imamovic.

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

18 And for the Defence.

19 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. Good

20 morning to the colleagues from the OTP, to everyone in and around the

21 courtroom. Vasvija Vidovic and Nicholas Robson for the Defence of General

22 Delic, with legal assistants, Lana Deljkic and Lejla Gluhic.

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

24 Good morning, sir. Good morning to you.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. I just want to remind you

2 that you are still bound by the declaration you made at the beginning of

3 your testimony to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing else but

4 the truth. Is that okay?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is okay.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.

7 Madam Vidovic.

8 WITNESS: SALIH SPAHIC [Resumed]

9 [Witness answered through interpreter]

10 Cross-examination by Ms. Vidovic: [Continued]

11 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Witness. Let us resume where we

12 left off yesterday.

13 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can the witness be shown Exhibit

14 776, please.

15 Q. Witness, the Prosecutor showed you this document yesterday. This

16 is a report from the security service of the 3rd Corps, dated the 3rd of

17 July, 1995. You saw your initials there.

18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can the document be scrolled down

19 for the witness to look at that. Thank you.

20 Q. You confirmed that you were, indeed, the author of the document.

21 I want you to have a look at it to refresh your memory.

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. I will remind you that the document describes a piece of

24 intelligence, to the effect that the detachment members tried to solve the

25 problem of their members who were captured. Is that right?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Do you agree that this document refers to -- to the various

3 connections that the unit commander had via the Croatian police, the

4 Croatian officer Zivko Totic, the civilian police in Travnik, all the way

5 to the State Presidency. Do you see that?

6 A. Yes, I see that. I agree, and that's what the document states.

7 Q. Do you agree that nowhere in this text is the name of the

8 commander of the staff of the Supreme Command mentioned as the possible

9 connection of -- that the Mujahedin might have to solve their problems?

10 A. I agree that's not what the document mentions.

11 Q. Having worked in the analysis department and dealing with pieces

12 of information such as this one, you were able to see various documents

13 referring to the Mujahedin and their connections. Have you ever seen a

14 document where the Mujahedin were mentioning General Rasim Delic as a

15 possible connection or as a contact that might help them solve a problem

16 that they had?

17 A. No, I've never seen such a document.

18 Q. Thank you.

19 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] We can put this document away.

20 Can the witness be shown document 777 -- or rather, Exhibit 777.

21 Q. The Prosecutor showed you this document yesterday. This document

22 is from the security service department of the 3rd Corps, dated the 8th of

23 July, 1995. You will recall that this speaks of the death of Kasim

24 Celenka, who was a member of the detachment. Do you recall the document?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. Please look at the last paragraph of the document. You wrote the

2 following: "We are going to request the security organ of the El

3 Mujahedin Unit to submit a detailed report about the cause of the accident

4 and the death of Kasim Celenka, and we are going to inform you of the

5 information we learn in."

6 Testifying about this document yesterday, you said that you made

7 the document on the basis of a document you received from a subordinate

8 unit. It is true, is it not, that this type of document, be it a document

9 at your level, the 3rd Corps, or lower level units, contained a customary

10 formulation when addressing subordinate units?

11 The usual formulation was through the security organ of the unit,

12 "Please report to us on this and that." Is that right?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. When it comes to the El Mujahedin Detachment, this was a unit

15 which, at different time periods, was establishment-wise a unit of the 3rd

16 Corps; is that right?

17 A. I'm not familiar with this. I'm not aware of that.

18 Q. Very well. Let me ask you this: Did you ever receive from the

19 security organ of the El Mujahedin Unit any report on any event?

20 A. In the analysis department, we have -- we had never received a

21 single document on security matters from the security organ of the El

22 Mujahid Unit.

23 Q. Therefore, you yourself have no knowledge about whether that unit

24 had a security organ or not.

25 A. I don't know whether that unit had a security organ or not.

1 Q. Did you ever receive information from the security organ of the El

2 Mujahid Unit concerning this person by the name of Celenka?

3 A. Whatever information I received, I passed it on; therefore,

4 whatever I received from the security organ of a subordinate unit, I wrote

5 about it and included it in the document I made.

6 Q. The drift of my question is the following: Did you receive this

7 detailed report about the causes of the accident and death of Celenka from

8 the El Mujahedin Detachment after this particular document?

9 A. I don't remember. I don't recall that.

10 MR. MENON: The transcript seems to have stopped, Your Honour.

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: I am struggling with mine. Mine has stopped, too.

12 Are we the only two whose transcripts have stopped? Mine has stopped.

13 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour, mine as well.

14 Your Honour, I will repeat.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: It has stopped for some time. I have been trying

16 to get it to start.

17 I am advised that assistance has been called for.

18 [Technical Difficulty]

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: It looks like it may be some time before the

20 transcription is corrected. Oh, there it goes. Okay.

21 Now, Madam Vidovic, in fairness to you, there were quite a number

22 of questions you asked after it stopped. I don't know whether you are

23 able to go back to that point where it stopped and go over those questions

24 again.

25 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I am. Thank you, Your Honour.

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay.

2 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. Witness, at the point when the transcript stopped, you confirmed

4 that you didn't know whether that unit had the security organ or not; and

5 then I asked you the following question: As far as this report is

6 concerned, this document that you have seen, I asked you whether you had

7 ever received from the security organ of the El Mujahedin Unit any further

8 information, a detailed report about the causes of death of Kasim Celenka.

9 You answered my question, but please repeat it.

10 A. No. We didn't receive any detailed report or information from the

11 security organ of the El Mujahedin Unit on this event.

12 Q. Thank you.

13 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we can put this

14 document away.

15 Can the witness be shown another document, one more only.

16 Your Honour, can the witness be shown Exhibit 770.

17 Let us turn to page 14 of the statement in the English and page 17

18 of the Bosnian version; page 17 of the Bosnian and 14 of the English

19 version.

20 This is the Bosnian version. Can we have page 14 of the English

21 version. That's fine.

22 Q. Witness, here you see a photocopy of your military booklet. Is

23 that right?

24 A. Yes, I can see that.

25 Q. It shows in which municipality you were listed on the military

1 records. You have that on the right-hand side of the screen.

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. At the time -- or rather, in 1994 and 1995, the 3rd Corps entered

4 its military conscripts into the military records of the relevant

5 municipality. Is that right?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. In terms of regulations, a person was a military conscript only if

8 it was entered into the military records of a given municipality; is that

9 right?

10 A. Yes.

11 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Let us look at the second page of

12 this -- or rather, the next page in both versions.

13 Q. Before the document shows up, I'll ask you this: The form in

14 which we see now of that military booklet was in use and was in force

15 until 1995; is that right?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. We have the word "VES" on the left-hand side of this booklet. Can

18 you explain for the Trial Chamber what that means.

19 A. "VES" means military -- military specialty unit of the records.

20 Q. And we have a number next to that; right?

21 A. [No Interpretation]

22 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Can the witness repeat his

23 answer, please. The interpreters didn't catch his answer, and can the

24 counsel and witness not overlap, please.

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Vidovic, the interpreters are complaining

1 that you're overlapping.

2 They didn't hear your answer, sir. Could you please repeat your

3 answer. The question was: "And we have a number next to that; right?"

4 That's when they lost you.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, yes, there is a number

6 next to it, and it denotes a unit.

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Vidovic, please slow down.

8 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you, Your Honour.

9 I want the witness to look at the right-hand side of the document.

10 Q. Do you agree with me that precisely in the way, in which we see

11 this in your booklet, the participation of the conscript in various units

12 was described in the booklet and certain time periods of that

13 participation were certified in the booklet? Is that right?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Therefore, we can exactly see here from what date up to -- up to

16 which date you served in various units.

17 A. Yes, that's correct.

18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I have no

19 further questions for this witness.

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

21 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Vidovic, this document that you have been

23 showing, although attached to the witness's statement, it was not admitted

24 yesterday.

25 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

1 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I would like this to be

2 admitted as a separate exhibit, the last document I showed to the witness.

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

4 The witness's military identity document is admitted into

5 evidence. May it please be given an exhibit number.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 785.

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. 785, okay.

8 Mr. Menon.

9 MR. MENON: No further questions, Your Honour, from the

10 Prosecution.

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

12 Judge?

13 JUDGE HARHOFF: No.

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Judge?

15 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] No questions.

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

17 Mr. Spahic, thank you so much for coming to testify at the

18 Tribunal. That brings us now to the conclusion of your testimony. You

19 are now excused. You may stand down, and please travel well home.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

22 [The witness withdrew]

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Mundis.

24 MR. MUNDIS: The Prosecution calls Fuad Zilkic.

25 [The registrar and usher confer]

1 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Mundis, we are advised the witness has not

3 arrived yet. He will only arrive at 10.00.

4 MR. MUNDIS: Okay. Perhaps if we could take a brief adjournment,

5 I can see if I can make arrangements to get him here a little bit sooner.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Maybe before we do that, can we just do a

7 small housekeeping?

8 The Trial Chamber now renders its decision on the Prosecution's

9 fourth motion for leave to amend its exhibit list filed on the 31st of

10 October, 2007.

11 In its motion, the Prosecution requests leave to amend its Rule 65

12 ter exhibit list by adding a proposed exhibit attached to the motion as

13 Annex A, which includes a list of cases from the archives of the Zenica

14 Doboj cantonal prosecutor's office.

15 The Prosecution submits that this list forms an integral part of

16 the expected testimony of Witness Muris Hadziselimovic. The proposed

17 exhibit was disclosed to the Defence on the 24th of December, 2007. On

18 the 7th of November, 2007, the Defence orally responded to the motion by

19 submitting that it did not oppose the motion.

20 The Trial Chamber has considered the arguments advanced by the

21 Prosecution in its motion. The Trial Chamber also noted that witness

22 Muris Hadziselimovic is scheduled to testify on the 23rd of November,

23 2007.

24 The Trial Chamber finds that it is in the interests of justice to

25 allow the addition of the proposed exhibit to the Prosecution's exhibit

1 list; and pursuant to Rule 54 of the Rules of Procedure and Evidence, the

2 motion is therefore granted.

3 Shall we take a short break until we are advised.

4 --- Break taken at 9.27 a.m.

5 --- Upon resuming at 10.00 a.m.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: In view of that little hitch, they suggested that

7 maybe sit now until half past 11.00.

8 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

9 [Technical Difficulty]

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: There is a LiveNote problem again.

11 Okay. We are advised that we can proceed, and the LiveNote will

12 catch up with us. It is faster than us.

13 I was going to suggest that, in order to cover the last time, we

14 sit one and a half hours now, from now to half past 11.00; break until

15 12.00; and then sit with no more time off after that. Okay.

16 Mr. Mundis, we will have the court usher escort the witness in

17 first. Okay.

18 [The witness entered court]

19 Good morning, sir. Good morning, Mr. Zilkic.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Will you please stand up and make the declaration.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

23 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. You may be now be seated,

25 Mr. Zilkic, and make yourself comfortable.

1 Mr. Mundis.

2 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President.

3 WITNESS: FUAD ZILKIC

4 [Witness answered through interpreter]

5 Examination by Mr. Mundis:

6 Q. Good morning, Mr. Zilkic.

7 A. Good morning.

8 Q. For the record, sir, can you please state your full name?

9 A. My name is Fuad Zilkic.

10 Q. And, Mr. Zilkic, please, tell us your date of birth and place of

11 birth.

12 A. I was born on the 10th of July 1963 in Zavidovici.

13 Q. Mr. Zilkic, can you, please, briefly tell the Trial Chamber about

14 your military career from the time that you first joined the military.

15 A. In 1983, I graduated from the military high school specialising in

16 artillery in Zadar; after that, I worked in Benkovac as a non-commissioned

17 officer.

18 After that, in 1989, I enrolled into the military college in

19 Zadar, which I graduated from in 1990, towards the end of 1990; and after

20 that, as a second lieutenant, I worked in the JNA.

21 Q. For how long, sir, did you remain in the JNA?

22 A. Until the 15th of April, 1992.

23 Q. After the 15th of April, 1992, Mr. Zilkic, what military force, if

24 any, were you a member of?

25 A. After that, I left the JNA; and through Hungary and Croatia, I

1 came back to Bosnia where, on the 18th of June, I reported to the

2 Territorial Defence unit of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

3 Q. And when you say "the 18th of June," sir, what year are you

4 referring to?

5 A. 1992.

6 Q. And, Mr. Zilkic, how long did you remain with the Territorial

7 Defence unit?

8 A. Until the establishment of the 318th Mountain Brigade, where I

9 became chief of artillery in that brigade.

10 Q. And do you recall, sir, approximately, when the 318th Mountain

11 Brigade was formed or established?

12 A. 19th of December, 1992.

13 Q. And how long, Mr. Zilkic, did you remain as the chief of artillery

14 in the 318th Mountain Brigade?

15 A. Until the 8th of March, 1993, when I became the commander of the

16 Municipal Staff of Zavidovici.

17 Q. And, again, Mr. Zilkic, how long did you remain in the position of

18 commander of the Municipal Staff of Zavidovici?

19 A. I stayed there until the 320th Mountain Brigade was established

20 towards the end of 1993.

21 Q. And did you, in fact, serve in the 320th Mountain Brigade, sir,

22 once that unit was established at the end of 1993?

23 A. The municipal Territorial Defence Staff was transformed into the

24 320th Mountain Brigade, and I became the commander of that brigade.

25 Q. And how long did you remain in the position of commander of the

1 320th Mountain Brigade?

2 A. Until the end of 1994, when the two brigades - the 318th and 320th

3 Brigades from Zavidovici - were merged into the 328th Mountain Brigade.

4 Q. And what position, sir, did you hold in the 328th Mountain

5 Brigade?

6 A. Commander also.

7 Q. And how long did you remain the commander of the 328th Mountain

8 Brigade?

9 A. Until the end of the war.

10 Q. Do you recall, sir, approximately -- the approximate date when the

11 328th Mountain Brigade was established?

12 A. I think in November of 1994; September or November 1994. I'm not

13 sure.

14 Q. And as the brigade commander of the 328th Mountain Brigade,

15 Mr. Zilkic, to whom did you report?

16 A. To the commander of the 35th Division, Colonel Fadil Hasanagic.

17 Q. Where was the headquarters of the 328th Mountain Brigade in 1995?

18 A. It was in the culture house in Zavidovici.

19 Q. During the period 1995, how was the 328th Mountain Brigade

20 structured in terms of subordinate units?

21 A. It had five mountain battalions and other staff units, artillery,

22 engineers, communications, logistics, anti-aircraft defence.

23 Q. Can you tell the Trial Chamber, sir, in 1995 where the five

24 mountain battalions of the 328th Mountain Brigade had their headquarters.

25 A. The 1st Mountain Battalion was headquartered in the town of

1 Zavidovici, its command was. It's forward command post was in Marici. It

2 is a village close to their AOR.

3 The 2nd Mountain Battalion was headquartered at Krcevine. It is a

4 hamlet close to the village of Medevici, and it's very close to its AOR.

5 The 3rd Battalion was in the village of Hajdarevici; the 4th in

6 the village Livade. The 5th Battalion was headquartered in Boravnice, and

7 its forward command post was in Curici.

8 Q. What combat operations, if any, did the 328th Mountain Brigade

9 participate in during 1995?

10 A. I would say that my brigade was a stationary brigade. And since

11 all combat operations took part in its AOR, it partly took part in all

12 combat activities, either through seconding part of its composition for

13 attacks or a brigade which would take up the newly reached lines.

14 Q. I'd like to ask you to clarify that answer, sir.

15 When you say "seconding part of its composition for attacks," what

16 are you talking about?

17 A. I'm talking about seconding a part of the manpower pursuant to

18 orders of the 35 Division, which troops then took part in offensives, in

19 offensive operations.

20 Q. To what unit or units did you second part of the manpower of the

21 328th Mountain Brigade to?

22 A. To -- primarily to the El Mujahedin Detachment.

23 Q. And when you also said, just a few moments ago, that "the brigade

24 would take up the newly reached lines," again, sir, what were you

25 referring to?

1 A. I think that all units which came to my AOR, to effect offensive

2 activities, did so from the lines of defence of my brigade as the launch

3 pad. And if they were successful in their assault, my unit had the duty

4 to organise the newly reached lines in terms of organising the defence and

5 manning those lines.

6 Q. And, again, Mr. Zilkic, when you say "I think that all units which

7 came to my AOR," I would ask you: What units came to your AOR in 1995?

8 A. I can list you some. Some 30 units came from the composition of

9 the Army of BiH: The 303rd, 314th, 330 Light, 375th, 7th Muslim, the

10 Black Swans, and many others.

11 Q. Okay. You mentioned a few moments ago the El Mujahedin

12 Detachment, and I would like to ask you, if you can recall, when the first

13 time you heard of that unit.

14 A. The first time I heard about them was when I was summoned by the

15 division commander to his command post, where he introduced me to the

16 commander of that unit. That was towards the end of 1995 --

17 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: At the beginning of

18 1995.

19 MR. MUNDIS:

20 Q. Okay. And who were you referring to when you said "the division

21 commander"?

22 A. Mr. Fadil Hasanagic.

23 Q. And to which command post were you summoned?

24 A. I think that the command post was at the old municipality house at

25 Zavidovici.

1 Q. When you said a few moments ago that the division commander

2 introduced you to the commander of that unit, do you recall who that

3 commander of the El Mujahedin Detachment was at that time?

4 A. Abu Maali.

5 Q. Do you recall the names or identities of any other persons who

6 attended this introductory meeting?

7 A. Abu Maali, Moatez, and the interpreter Aiman.

8 Q. What was discussed at this meeting in the beginning of 1995?

9 A. I did not speak to them. This was just an introduction. The

10 commander had talked to them beforehand, then he invited me to be

11 introduced. He did not issue me with a mission, but he told me that that

12 unit was going to be in my area of responsibility for a time.

13 Q. Do you recall which part of your AOR the El Mujahedin Detachment

14 was going to be in?

15 A. At that meeting, this was not discussed. This was just an

16 introduction. After that, they contacted my units out on the ground.

17 Q. Can you elaborate upon how the El Mujahedin Detachment contacted

18 your units out on the ground.

19 A. They were primarily entered into the range and elevation of

20 Podsjelovo, the village of Livade, in that area where they were located,

21 parts of that detachment were there. Contact was maintained through the

22 35th Division. Their requests were handled through the 35th Division.

23 The commander issued me with orders, and I complied with those orders.

24 Q. You mentioned the elevation of Podsjelovo. Can you tell the Trial

25 Chamber whether any efforts were made in 1994 with respect to Podsjelovo.

1 A. In June, towards the end of June and the beginning of July 1994,

2 there was a major combat to capture elevation 715 at Podsjelovo. The

3 fortune changed hands. We were successful for a time; the enemy for

4 another. The combat lasted for 20 days with substantial losses on both

5 sides.

6 Q. And what was the result of these operations in June and July 1994

7 with respect to Podsjelovo?

8 A. We lost some territory there.

9 Q. Towards the end of 1994, which armed force controlled the

10 elevation points on Podsjelovo?

11 A. Towards the end of 1994, I recaptured that lost territory with my

12 units. So we held the elevation 715, the elevation 726; and the others to

13 the left [as interpreted] of it, they were held by the enemy.

14 Q. And which elevations -- when you say "the others to the left were

15 held by the enemy," which elevation points are you referring to?

16 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's Correction: To the right of.

17 MR. MUNDIS:

18 Q. Sorry. Which elevation points to the right were held by the

19 enemy?

20 A. Starting with the Humka elevation 726, 2702, 2706 [as

21 interpreted]. This is a natural range. It's a dominant position.

22 Q. Okay. I think there's an error in the transcript, sir. Can you

23 repeat the three elevation points that were held by the enemy at the

24 beginning of 1995.

25 A. Elevation 726 named Humka, then 702 and 706.

1 Q. These three elevation points, 726, 702, and 706, how long were

2 they held by the enemy forces?

3 A. Until the 25th May 1995.

4 Q. And what happened on that day, sir, 25th May 1995?

5 A. On that day, the El Mujahid with parts of our units captured those

6 elevations.

7 Q. And when you say, sir, "parts of our units," can you be more

8 specific?

9 A. El Mujahid -- El Mujahid sought parts of our units to reinforce

10 their ranks, to effect offensive operations on the basis of their

11 requests. The vision commander determined which units will second how

12 many men for those activities.

13 Q. You mentioned a few moments ago or we discussed this introductory

14 meeting at the beginning of 1995. Other than that meeting, sir, did you

15 ever have any subsequent meetings with the leaders of the El Mujahedin

16 Detachment?

17 A. I had some three or four meetings.

18 Q. Can you recall, with specifics, any of these subsequent three or

19 four meetings?

20 A. These were meetings at the division commands which were attended

21 by all unit commanders; among others, commanders of the El Mujahid. We

22 had short briefings. If the topic to be discussed was the preparation of

23 combat activities, we would brief the commander on whether we were ready,

24 whether we had made the preparations as ordered, in terms of manpower,

25 troops.

1 They were there. The command of the El Mujahid were there, but

2 they did not brief the commander, and they would stay behind, most

3 probably, to sort out the details with the commander of the 35th Division.

4 Q. And when you refer to the "commanders of the El Mujahid," who are

5 you talking about, sir?

6 A. I'm sorry, I did not understand the question.

7 Q. You said a few moments ago, at these meetings at the division

8 command, all unit commanders attended; and then you went on and said

9 "among others, commanders of the El Mujahid."

10 I'm asking you who those El Mujahid commanders that you referred

11 to were.

12 A. The commander, Abu Maali; Moatez; the interpreter, Aiman; and the

13 other commanders were the commanders of the 327th, 328th, 329th Brigades,

14 and other units that were to be part of an -- an attack or a combat

15 operation.

16 Q. Do you recall the specific dates or general time periods in which

17 these three or four subsequent meetings took place?

18 A. I remember the meeting of the 10th of September at Panorama, and I

19 remember another meeting at Elektron, which is a factory close to Maglaj.

20 There may have been more, but I presently cannot recall.

21 Q. Do you recall, sir, the approximate date of the meeting at

22 Elektron near Maglaj?

23 A. I don't know exactly. This was after the 15th of September, when

24 we started operations deep into the Ozren area. It was a briefing

25 attended by the commander of the 3rd Corps, where missions were handed

1 down for subsequent operations.

2 Q. These two meetings that you've told us about in September, what

3 year were those, sir?

4 A. 1995.

5 Q. I'd like to focus your attention, Mr. Zilkic, on the meeting at --

6 on 10 September 1995 at Panorama. Do you recall, approximately, what time

7 that meeting took place on that day, sir?

8 A. I remember that it took place in the evening hours; maybe 2000

9 hours, around that time. I cannot be specific, but thereabouts.

10 Q. What was Panorama?

11 A. It was a restaurant close to Zavidovici, which the division

12 sometimes used as their forward command post.

13 Q. Now, this meeting on 10 September 1995 at approximately 2000 hours

14 in Panorama, do you recall who attended that meeting?

15 A. The corps commander was there with a part of his staff, the

16 division commander with part of his staff, and commanders of the units

17 that were effecting activities.

18 Q. And at that time, sir, who was the corps commander that you've

19 referred to?

20 A. Mr. Sakib Mahmuljin.

21 Q. And, again, which commander or commanders of the El Mujahedin

22 Detachment were present at that meeting?

23 A. All meetings which I attended, El Mujahedin was represented by Abu

24 Maali; Moatez; and the interpreter, Aiman, except for one case where

25 another interpreter was there, Abu Hamza.

1 Q. Do you recall the meeting that Abu Hamza attended?

2 A. I can't recall it.

3 Q. Now, this meeting on 10 September 1995 at Panorama in the evening,

4 what was the topic of discussion?

5 A. Primarily on the subsequent tasks, tomorrow's tasks.

6 Q. What were the tasks that were discussed concerning 11 September

7 1995?

8 A. Continuation of offensive activities.

9 Q. When you say "continuation," Mr. Zilkic, when did these offensive

10 activities commence?

11 A. Well, they started in the early morning of the 10th of September.

12 Q. Do you recall, sir, what happened on the 10th of September, 1995

13 in terms of these combat operations?

14 A. I know that immediately after the commencement of the attack, El

15 Mujahid captured the elevation of Paljenik within seven minutes. This is

16 what I knew. I did not know at that time which positions our other units

17 reached. Only later in the afternoon, I could see from my observation

18 post the linking-up of the 2nd and 3rd Corps units in the area of Prokop.

19 Q. And where was your observation post on that day?

20 A. At elevation point 551.

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can I interrupt?

22 Is there a problem?

23 THE GUARD: She doesn't feel well.

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Robson, are you going to deal with this

25 witness, or is it she who's dealing with the witness?

1 MR. ROBSON: Your Honour, this witness is being dealt with by

2 Madam Vidovic. I'm not sure why she left. I was just heard from the

3 security guard there that apparently she doesn't feel very well. I wasn't

4 aware of the problem.

5 I'm afraid I can't assist the Court really.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. What do you want to do?

7 MR. ROBSON: Your Honour, if Madam Vidovic is going to return very

8 soon, I'd be happy for the witness to proceed, but without -- I'm

9 completely in the dark as to whether it's a serious problem or just

10 something that can be dealt with momentarily.

11 I'm in the hands of the Court. Either I can go and try and find

12 out.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: If you could, please, or if your assistant can

14 help.

15 Do you think you can help? Thank you very much.

16 Just find out how long she will be and come and tell us.

17 MR. ROBSON: Thank you, Your Honour.

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm sorry about that, Mr. Mundis.

19 MR. MUNDIS: I think under the circumstances that's the most

20 prudent course of action, Your Honour. Thank you.

21 Perhaps, I could just take this brief moment to inform the Trial

22 Chamber I've discussed with the Defence some issues concerning scheduling,

23 and a new schedule was circulated at the end of the last break with

24 respect to next week's witnesses.

25 The Trial Chamber's legal officer has been provided with a copy of

1 that schedule. We're trying to make up a little bit of lost time, also

2 with an eye towards the videolink that's scheduled on the 20th, which is,

3 of course, not something that's movable.

4 So, I'll just alert everyone to that fact, but the schedule has

5 been circulated.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Mundis.

7 Madam Vidovic, are you okay?

8 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I am well. Thank you, Your Honour.

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: You don't look it, ma'am.

10 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I have the flu, and I'm running a

11 high temperature, but I think I can bear it.

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Please do tell us when you are not able to bear it.

13 Okay?

14 Okay. Thank you very much.

15 You may proceed, Mr. Mundis.

16 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President.

17 Q. Mr. Zilkic, I'd like to return to what we were talking about just

18 a few moments ago. You told us, as reflected on page 18, lines 8 through

19 10, that immediately after the commencement of the attack, El Mujahid

20 captured the elevation of Paljenik within seven minutes.

21 And my question to you, sir, is: Were any units of the 328th

22 Mountain Brigade involved in the capture of Paljenik?

23 A. None of them were.

24 Q. Let's return then, sir, to the meeting on that evening. What do

25 you recall, if anything, was discussed about the continuation of the

1 operations that had commenced on 10 September 1995?

2 A. I can only say that this was a more relaxed atmosphere thanks to

3 the successes achieved at the front line. It mostly had to do with

4 further advancement toward the Kvrge feature, where we had the task of

5 linking up with the units of the 2nd Corps on the following day.

6 Q. Do you recall, sir, whether any taskings were given to the El

7 Mujahedin Detachment at this meeting on the 10th of September, 1995?

8 A. I don't remember. I was never present when they were being --

9 were being issued tasks.

10 Q. Let's turn, then, sir, to the operations on 11 September 1995.

11 Where were you on that day?

12 A. Initially, I was also at the observation post 551, from where I

13 was following the fighting around the Djurici elevation, Djurici Vis.

14 After that, I went to the Gaj feature, from where I also followed

15 the advancement of our units. When I saw that they were approaching the

16 Kvrge feature, I set off toward 685 feature in order to reach the line I

17 was supposed to reach on that day pursuant to the orders.

18 Q. Which battalions of the 328th Mountain Brigade, if any, were

19 involved in operations on 11 September 1995?

20 A. None of my battalions took part in these attacks. My entire unit

21 was tasked with taking up the newly reached positions and with carrying

22 out engineering work on these positions.

23 Q. What units of the 3rd Corps were involved in those attacks on 11

24 September 1995?

25 A. All the manoeuvre battalions were involved in them, that is to

1 say, five manoeuvre battalions; elements of the 329th also took part; also

2 of the 327th, I believe; the 7th Muslim; the, as we called them, Rekic's

3 Specialists also took part in that; the sabotage battalion; and there were

4 probably some other units. I can't recall at present.

5 Q. Do you recall, sir, receiving any reports from your battalion

6 commanders, oral reports from your battalion commanders, on 11 September

7 1995?

8 A. I received the report from the commander of the 5th Battalion,

9 Mr. Ahmet Sehic, to the fact that there were prisoners, that his unit had

10 captured some men.

11 Q. Again, sir, for the benefit of the transcript, can you repeat the

12 name of the commander of the 5th Battalion.

13 A. Mr. Ahmet Sehic.

14 Q. Do you recall approximately what time you received this report

15 from Mr. Sehic on 11 September 1995, that his battalion had captured some

16 men?

17 A. I don't recall at what time the first call took place. It was

18 followed by a second call at around 1400 hours, when he reported to me

19 that members of the El Mujahid Detachment had taken the prisoners away.

20 Q. Let's focus, sir, on the first call. Do you remember what you

21 told Mr. Sehic with respect to these prisoners when he informed you about

22 them?

23 A. He told me that there were 40 to 50 prisoners, and I think he

24 requested for a vehicle. I asked him which of his commanding officers

25 were there, and he said that his deputy were there, as was the company

1 commander.

2 I told him to go there personally and to carry out the task, as

3 per the order; meaning that he should comply with the order instructing

4 everyone how to treat prisoners, and that he should be there to give a

5 helping hand to the deputy and the company commander, who were there.

6 Q. Do you recall, sir, where these prisoners were on 11 September

7 1995 when you received this first call from Mr. Sehic?

8 A. In the area of the village of Kesten.

9 Q. After this first call, you told us you received a second call.

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And that was around 1400 hours. What exactly did Mr. Sehic tell

12 you?

13 A. I don't recall his exact words, but he reported to me. He said

14 the commander of the El Mujahid had taken away the prisoners --

15 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's Correction: He said, "Commander,

16 the El Mujahid had taken away the prisoners."

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He told me that there were

18 incidents, that my men drew weapons at them but that they were unable to

19 do anything, and that the El Mujahid took the prisoners away.

20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I would like to correct

21 the transcript. Page 26, lines 9 and 10, perhaps the Prosecutor can

22 clarify this with the witness.

23 It is entered in the transcript he said, "Commander, the El

24 Mujahid..." It seems that's at least how it transpires on the transcript,

25 that the commander of the El Mujahid had taken away the prisoner, but he

1 said something else that. The El Mujahid had taken away the prisoners, or

2 perhaps I misunderstand what is written there.

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, ma'am. If you will look at -- let's stop this

4 thing so you can see it. If you look at line 10-- let me look at this one.

5 If you look at 7, line 7, page 26: "I don't recall his exact

6 words, but he reported to me. He said the commander of the El Mujahid had

7 taken away the prisoners --"

8 The interpreter then says: "Interpreter's correction: He said,

9 'Commander, the El Mujahid had taken away the prisoners.'"

10 So there is a correction there.

11 Is that okay?

12 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] That's all right. Thank you, Your

13 Honour. I couldn't see this on my screen. I apologise, Your Honour.

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's fine, Madam Vidovic.

15 MR. MUNDIS:

16 Q. Mr. Zilkic, when the 5th Battalion commander, Ahmet Sehic,

17 reported to you that the Mujahedin had taken the prisoners away, were you

18 concerned about that situation?

19 A. Of course, I was.

20 Q. Why?

21 A. Well, up to that point, it had never happened that somebody would

22 kidnap prisoners from someone.

23 Q. What did you do with the information you received from Mr. Sehic

24 concerning these prisoners?

25 A. After I received the first word from the battalion commander that

1 the prisoners had been taken away, I informed my superior over the radio

2 set that I had with me; and then he told me, "Very well. Let's proceed

3 according to plan."

4 Q. Do you recall, sir, whether these -- these prisoners were the

5 subject of any subsequent discussions between you and Mr. Sehic?

6 A. Yes. In the evening hours at the forward command post of the 1st

7 Battalion, which was at Sjenokos, after I came down from the lines at the

8 Kvrge feature, I called him to recount everything to me in detail.

9 Q. You told us just a moment ago that after you received the word

10 from Mr. Sehic, you informed your superior. Who were you referring to,

11 sir, as your superior?

12 A. The division commander, Mr. Fadil Hasanagic.

13 Q. Do you recall, sir, whether there were any subsequent discussions

14 or briefings with Mr. Hasanagic, where the topic of these prisoners was

15 discussed?

16 A. I don't recall that. But I have to say that those were the days

17 of intense combat activities, and I reported to the superior command on

18 everything that had happened at the time in detail because I felt that I

19 personally could do nothing more than that.

20 MR. MUNDIS: I would ask that the witness now be shown Exhibit

21 480.

22 Q. Mr. Zilkic, do you see the document on the screen in front of you?

23 A. Yes.

24 MR. MUNDIS: Perhaps if we could go to the fourth page of the

25 document in Bosnian.

1 Q. Whose signature is that, sir?

2 A. Mine.

3 MR. MUNDIS: Now, if we could please go to the bottom of page 2 in

4 the Bosnian and the middle of page 3 of the English.

5 Q. And I draw your attention, sir, to the final bullet point, the

6 second bullet point under paragraph number 4.

7 What is the information in that section of the document based

8 upon?

9 A. Out of the command-and-control system, where combat reports were

10 written every day and sent to the superior command, they were written on

11 the basis of the reports received from the battalion commanders out in the

12 field.

13 Q. And my specific question, sir, is: This second bullet point under

14 paragraph number 4, what was the source of the information contained

15 therein?

16 A. A report from the battalion.

17 Q. Thank you, sir.

18 MR. MUNDIS: Could we no go to the top of page 2 in the Bosnian

19 and to the middle of page 2 in the English.

20 Q. Do you see that part of the document, sir, the second paragraph

21 with the star that says "Activities of the Command"?

22 A. Yes.

23 MR. MUNDIS: And this is in the middle of the English page or

24 toward -- a little bit below the middle.

25 Q. Can you take a look at that paragraph, sir: "Last night and this

1 morning a meeting was held at the operations centre of the 328th Mountain

2 Brigade."

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Do you see reference to officers of the El Mujahid Detachment

5 attending this meeting or meetings?

6 A. I do.

7 Q. Were you present at that meeting, sir?

8 A. I can't say that I was not, but I don't remember that.

9 MR. MUNDIS: Can we go back to the first page of the document in

10 both English and B/C/S, please.

11 Q. This document is dated 13 September 1995. Do you see that, sir?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And to the best of your recollection, you don't remember the

14 meeting or meetings referred to in the paragraph we just looked at.

15 A. I can't remember that meeting.

16 Q. Now, Mr. Zilkic, do you know where the El Mujahedin Detachment had

17 its headquarters or any of its command posts during 1995?

18 A. I don't. I know some of the locations where they were

19 headquartered -- where they before billeted, but I never knew where their

20 command post was.

21 Q. Where were the locations where they were billeted that you've

22 referred to?

23 A. In my area of responsibility, there was always a part of the units

24 in the village of Livade, and I am primarily referring to the men who

25 conducted reconnaissance along the lines of defence. I know that they had

1 their own camp at the 13th Kilometre

2 Q. How did you know they had a camp at the 13th Kilometre?

3 A. Well, I knew that from various documents, and I was there. I was

4 living there, I know the place, and I could see that.

5 MR. MUNDIS: I would ask that the witness now be shown the

6 document marked as PT2038, PT2038.

7 Q. Do you see the document on the screen in front of you, sir?

8 A. I do.

9 Q. Can you tell the Trial Chamber what this document is, please.

10 A. This is a regular daily combat report which my unit sent to the

11 superior command.

12 MR. MUNDIS: Can we please go to page 3 of the document in

13 Bosnian, and we can stay on the first page in English.

14 Q. Whose signature is that, sir?

15 A. Mine.

16 MR. MUNDIS: Now if we could go back to the first page in the

17 Bosnian, and now please go to page 3 in the English.

18 If we could scroll down on the Bosnian, and we actually need -- we

19 need the top part, actually, in the English.

20 Q. Mr. Zilkic, --

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. -- above paragraph 3, there are a number of bullet points. Do you

23 see the one that makes reference to "Engineering"?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And do you see the reference there, sir, to "Engineering

1 consolidation of the defence line of the 2nd Mountain Battalion"?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Can you comment, sir, on the reference to "13th kilometre" that's

4 reflected in this document?

5 A. I said that elements of the units of El Mujahid had a camp at the

6 13th Kilometre. Some of my engineering units did some works with

7 construction machinery because it mentions road maintenance here, and they

8 had some machinery that they used for the purposes of the El Mujahid Unit.

9 MR. MUNDIS: I'd ask that this document be tendered into evidence,

10 Your Honours.

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

12 please be given an exhibit number.

13 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 786.

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

15 MR. MUNDIS: I would ask that the witness now be shown the

16 document marked PT2094, PT2094.

17 Q. And while that document is coming up, Mr. Zilkic, during 1995,

18 where did the 328th Mountain Brigade have communication centres?

19 A. The main communications centre was at the command post of the

20 brigade at Zavidovici, and the other operations centres were located as

21 appropriate for the combat activities. They were normally at forward

22 command posts. According to this document, there is an operations centre

23 at the village of Imamovici...

24 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's Correction: A communications

25 centre.

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]... where you can see that it started

2 working.

3 MR. MUNDIS:

4 Q. And where do you see that on this document, sir?

5 A. In item 1.3, it says: "The communications centre of 328 Mountain

6 Brigade at Zavidovici at the culture hall."

7 Then: "The communications centre of the 328th Mountain Brigade at

8 Zavidovici [as interpreted], culture hall, as of the 23rd of May, 1995,

9 1200 hours".

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry. Does that say "Zavidovici," or does it

11 say "Imamovici"? The line that refers to the 23rd of May, 1995.

12 MR. MUNDIS:

13 Q. Can you -- can you comment upon the question of the Judge,

14 Mr. Zilkic? Where was the -- where was the communications centre

15 established as of 23 May 1995 at 1200 hours?

16 A. At the village of Imamovici, which was to the left from the

17 elevation 715, in people's houses.

18 Q. Thank you.

19 MR. MUNDIS: We'd ask that this document be admitted into

20 evidence, Your Honours.

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

22 please be given an exhibit number.

23 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 787.

24 MR. MUNDIS: Now --

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

1 MR. MUNDIS:

2 Q. Mr. Zilkic, do you or did you in 1995 have any direct contact

3 between yourself and the commander or commanders of the El Mujahid

4 Detachment?

5 A. Apart from the meetings at the 35th Division, I had no meetings

6 with them.

7 Q. You've told us, sir, about receiving orders to second personnel

8 from your brigade and its battalions to the El Mujahid Detachment. Did

9 you or your brigade provide any other form of logistical support to that

10 unit in 1995, to the best of your recollection?

11 A. Yes. We offered them logistics support whenever ordered to do so

12 by the division.

13 Q. What kind of logistics support, Mr. Zilkic, did your brigade or

14 its battalions provide to the El Mujahid Detachment?

15 A. Well, we saw an example where we fortified some positions. There

16 were examples where we were supposed to establish communication or a

17 communication system; then there were examples where we would dislocate

18 heavy weapons pursuant to their requests; and then there were requests to

19 repair motor vehicles. There were requests to supply them with food, and

20 many other things that they requested.

21 Q. And, again, so that we're clear, how did -- how did these requests

22 come to your attention?

23 A. Through the 35th Division in the form of an order.

24 MR. MUNDIS: Can we now take a look at PT2232, PT2232.

25 Q. Do you recognise this document, Mr. Zilkic?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. What is this document?

3 A. This is a regular daily combat report.

4 Q. Of what unit?

5 A. Of the 328th Mountain Brigade.

6 MR. MUNDIS: If we could please focus on the bottom half of the

7 Bosnian, and go to page 3 in the middle in the English, please.

8 Q. Sir, approximately, just below the middle of the page in Bosnian,

9 do you see the bullet point that begins "El Mujahid Detachment"?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Can you take a look at that bullet point to familiarise yourself

12 with what's in this report, and can you then comment upon what you've put

13 in this report, please.

14 A. In this report, it can be seen that there was a request of the El

15 Mujahedin from the 35th Division, to the effect that a B-1 gun to be

16 removed from Mramorje, from the position of the 2nd Mountain Battalion to

17 another location, in keeping with their plans for further combat

18 operations; and, whereby, I report that by relocating that gun, that would

19 weaken the position of my brigade.

20 Q. And can you tell us, sir, what a B-1 gun is.

21 A. It is a 76-millimetre artillery piece.

22 MR. MUNDIS: Can we please go to page 2 in the Bosnian and page 6

23 in the English.

24 Q. I draw your attention, sir, to paragraph 5, that talks about

25 logistics, subparagraph 2. Do you see the reference there, sir, to an FAP

1 truck?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Can you tell us what is being reported in this part of your daily

4 combat report.

5 A. Nothing, except what is written here, that they repaired their

6 vehicle, which was in the composition of the El Mujahid Detachment, which

7 was broken down.

8 Q. Thank you, Mr. Zilkic.

9 MR. MUNDIS: I'd ask that this document be admitted into evidence,

10 Your Honours.

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

12 please be given an exhibit number.

13 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 788.

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

15 MR. MUNDIS: And can we now take a look at PT2359.

16 Q. Do you see this document, sir?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. What is this document?

19 A. This is a regular monthly combat report that we submitted at the

20 end of the month to our superior command, including all the specified

21 elements of such a report.

22 MR. MUNDIS: Could we please go to the last page of this document

23 in -- in Bosnian.

24 Q. Who signed this document, sir?

25 A. I did. I signed it.

1 MR. MUNDIS: Can we please go to page 3 in the English and page 2

2 in the original, and go to the top in the Bosnian. That's fine.

3 Q. Mr. Zilkic, can you please read the first paragraph of -- under

4 heading number 2, "Brigade forces."

5 A. "During this reporting period, the main body of our forces carried

6 out decisive defence on the line of defence; and with joint forces of the

7 35th Division of land army, according to a plan of the El Mujahedin

8 Detachment, between the 21st and 27th July of 1995, we conducted offensive

9 operations. Offensive combat operations were carried out on the main

10 axis, Sjenokos-Vis, and on to the secondary axis, Podsjelovo-Kvrge."

11 Q. And can you recall, sir, what the objective was of the 328th

12 Mountain Brigade with respect to this time period, 21 to 27 July 1995?

13 A. The goal of the -- the goal of the 328th Mountain Brigade could

14 only have been to maintain the lines and fortifying of the lines during

15 that period.

16 MR. MUNDIS: Can we now go to page 3 in Bosnian and page 6 in

17 English. I want the top parts of both.

18 Q. Now, do you see, sir, the heading "Focus of engagement of brigade

19 forces"?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And the first -- the first sentence under that heading, can you

22 comment upon what you wrote there in this report?

23 A. "As in all situations, the focus of members our forces was focused

24 on decisive defence and to set aside forces for combat operations

25 according to the El Mujahid plan."

1 I said that whenever El Mujahid were to launch offensive

2 operations, they would seek parts of our units that would be seconded and

3 re-subordinated to them; and they were trained by them, after which they

4 would carry out combat operations.

5 MR. MUNDIS: Now if we could go to the bottom of the document

6 in -- in English, but it's fine in -- in the Bosnian.

7 Q. Do you see, sir, the second big paragraph under this heading which

8 refers to the period between 21 and 24 July 1995?

9 A. I apologise. Can you repeat your question, please.

10 Q. Do you see the second large paragraph under the heading "Focus of

11 engagement" that discusses action between 21 and 24 July 1995?

12 A. You mean unit activities or the focus of engagement? Could you

13 please clarify that, please.

14 Q. "Focus of engagement." Do you see the little -- the little dot

15 where there would be -- where there's two holes in the document? Do you

16 see those little circles on the left-hand side?

17 Yes, right there. Right where that's been highlighted, that --

18 that part of the document, sir.

19 Can you take a quick read through that paragraph. You don't need

20 to read it out loud, just to yourself.

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Can you comment upon that part of your document which says "led by

23 the El Mujahid."

24 A. This concerns a continuation of the Proljece operation, where the

25 goal was to capture elevations Gaj, Jezero, Jasicka Kosa, Rudenjak,

1 Markovica Vis, all the others cited here, where our units - and, by this,

2 I mean parts of the units that were by the order of the 35th Division

3 seconded and re-subordinated to the El Mujahedin Detachment - they took

4 part in this area in combat operations, because this is a monthly report

5 outlining all the activities carried out by my unit.

6 Q. What does it mean when you wrote "led by the El Mujahid"?

7 A. After Proljece in 1995, which means after 25th of May, where they

8 had achieved a major success by capturing the elevation of Podsjelovo, I

9 don't know what their tasks were, but what I did know is that they were

10 preparing for further actions.

11 And in all subsequent combat operations engaged our units, parts

12 of our units that the El Mujahid trained, but there were the driver of

13 the -- such combat operations. They were conducted under their plans, and

14 they were the first to engage in combat. So they were the ones to break

15 through the enemy lines, to make this matter clear.

16 MR. MUNDIS: Can we please go to the bottom part of this document

17 and the bottom of page 7 in English.

18 Q. Sir, do you see where it says "Activities of units"?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. There's reference there to "soldiers conducted training at the 9th

21 km, according to the El Mujahid Detachment's plan." I'd like to ask you,

22 sir, if you can comment upon what you wrote here in this document.

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. What is that all about, this training at the 9th Kilometre

25 according to the El Mujahid Detachment's plan?

1 A. For the planning of subsequent combat operations, the El Mujahid

2 Detachment made an assessment of how many of our troops they needed for

3 such combat operations. And as per the division commander's schedule and

4 order, all units had to second some troops to be re-subordinated to the El

5 Mujahid Detachment, where they were trained - I never attended that

6 training personally - which would last between five to seven or ten days.

7 And, primarily, that training consisted of religious training and

8 the bonding of our troops with the people from -- of Arabic origin, so

9 that they be as compact a unit as possible during offensive operations.

10 Q. What do you mean "so that they would be as compact a unit as

11 possible"? What do you mean by that?

12 A. By this, I primarily mean that they were psychologically primed,

13 telling them that the enemy was nothing special, that all combat actions

14 are possible to carry out. Of course, they cited themselves as examples.

15 They worked on the morale of our units mostly.

16 Q. This reference to training at the 9th Kilometre, do you know where

17 that training took place, sir?

18 A. It was the area of the school in the area of the 9th Kilometre,

19 where before the war there was a school building, school yard, and a gym,

20 and there was some flat ground, empty ground around it. When -- while

21 manoeuvre battalions were established, our 4th Manoeuvre Battalion

22 conducted their training there. This location was away from the lines of

23 defence, so that training could proceed without hindrance.

24 Q. And do you know, sir, the name of the village or hamlet that's at

25 the 9th Kilometre?

1 A. Cardak.

2 MR. MUNDIS: We'd ask that this document be admitted into

3 evidence, Your Honours.

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

5 please be given an exhibit number.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 789.

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

8 MR. MUNDIS:

9 Q. Is -- is Cardak, sir, also known as Gostovici?

10 A. Well, Gostovici encompasses -- Gostovici itself is a river 18

11 kilometres long. But when we referred to Gostovici, we divided that into

12 Gornji Gostovic and Donji Gostovic, and the local communities numbered 50;

13 meaning 50 villages, hamlets. Ten of them were larger villages, and the

14 rest were hamlets with five, ten houses each.

15 MR. MUNDIS: Can we now take a look at PT2374, PT2374.

16 Q. Do you see this document on the screen in front of you, sir?

17 A. Yes.

18 MR. MUNDIS: Perhaps if we could scroll down in the Bosnian.

19 Q. Who signed this document, sir?

20 A. I signed it.

21 Q. And what is this document?

22 A. This is a report to my superior command, to the effect that the

23 enemy is conducting an artillery and infantry attack in the area of my 4th

24 Battalion in the area of elevation 406 [as interpreted]. So this was what

25 happened that day.

1 We spent a large amount of ammunition, and we report to the

2 superior command that we rejected that attack and that we need and

3 requisition replenishment of materiel and ammunition.

4 Q. And, sir, the transcript reflected that this concerned the area of

5 your 4th Battalion in the area of elevation 406. Can you point us to that

6 part of the document?

7 A. Elevation 706, in the area of elevation 706.

8 Q. 706, not 406.

9 A. Yes, it said so in the first paragraph.

10 Q. Okay.

11 MR. MUNDIS: Can we please go to page 2 in the English, but stay

12 on this page in the Bosnian.

13 Q. Sir, in the middle, approximately the middle of the page, there's

14 a reference to "El Mujahid/MB-120." Do you see that?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Can you tell -- can you tell the Trial Chamber what you were

17 reporting in this part of your document.

18 A. During the enemy's attack, since this was a sizable attack, parts

19 of the El Mujahedin Detachment, primarily mortars 120 millimetres that

20 were located at Livade, provided support to my troops. This most probably

21 was at the request of the scouts or parts of the El Mujahedin people from

22 the 4th Manoeuvre Battalion, because I could not order those mortars from

23 the El Mujahedin to be used, but I do report to my superior command that

24 this was done.

25 Q. And so I take it, sir, from that answer, that "MB-120," is that

1 120-millimetre mortar?

2 A. Yes.

3 MR. MUNDIS: We'd ask that this document be admitted into

4 evidence, Your Honours.

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

6 please be given an exhibit number.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 790.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

9 MR. MUNDIS: I think we have time for one more document before the

10 break.

11 If the witness could please be shown PT2380.

12 Q. Do you recognise this document, Mr. Zilkic?

13 A. Yes.

14 MR. MUNDIS: Could we please quickly go to page 4 in Bosnian.

15 Q. I would ask you if you recognise the signature on this document.

16 A. Yes. This is my signature.

17 Q. And what is this document, Mr. Zilkic?

18 A. As all the others, this was a regular daily combat report.

19 Q. Okay. Could you please look --

20 MR. MUNDIS: And we could go back to page 1 in the English, to

21 the bottom of page 1.

22 Q. Do you see under paragraph number 2, sir, again, there's reference

23 to "El Mujahid Unit" in that paragraph? Do you see that, sir?

24 A. Yes. Yes.

25 Q. Can you tell us -- can you tell us what you're reporting in this

1 paragraph with respect to the El Mujahid Unit.

2 A. As part of my tasks of my units which effected decisive defence,

3 it follows - and this is what I report on - how many members of my units

4 would man the lines of defence; what was the -- our strength and status of

5 our troops; how many people we had from other units and how many of them

6 were ready for manning the lines of defence, because my unit was a large

7 one.

8 These units referred to are those that should intervene in the

9 case of an enemy's attack. They were in the -- in the reserve.

10 MR. MUNDIS: Can we please go to page 2 in both versions of the

11 document. We'll need the middle in Bosnian and the very bottom in

12 English.

13 Q. Do you see, sir, where it says "Additional information" and

14 then "Stand-by schedule"? Do you see that, Mr. Zilkic?

15 A. I don't know what you're referring to.

16 Q. In the middle of the page, there's a subheading with a star by it

17 that says "Additional information," and under that, "Stand-by schedule."

18 Do you see that, sir?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Can you tell us -- can you tell us what you're reporting in this

21 part of the document.

22 MR. MUNDIS: It does carry over onto page 3 in the English.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] After we'd lost some territory,

24 particularly the feature 685, and given that my unit could not have

25 reserve troops primarily in terms of weapons but also in manpower, my

1 troops were exhausted after manning the lines of defence for months on

2 end.

3 At my requests, I demanded that, in certain features and places,

4 that we have stand-by units. Taught from the experience of the activities

5 around the 685, I report to the commander how many units are where, being

6 in stand-by mode.

7 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you. The Prosecution tenders this document

8 into evidence, Your Honours.

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

10 please be given an exhibit number.

11 Before it is removed, can we turn to page 3 in the English,

12 please, because we haven't seen that.

13 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit number 791.

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

15 Thank you very much. The document may move.

16 MR. MUNDIS: This would be an appropriate time for the recess,

17 Your Honours, for the break.

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: We'll take a break and come back at 12.00.

19 Court adjourned.

20 --- Recess taken at 11.32 a.m.

21 --- On resuming at 12.00 p.m.

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Mundis.

23 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President.

24 I would ask that the witness now be shown PT2434, PT2434.

25 Q. Sir, do you see the document on the screen in front of you?

1 A. Yes, I do.

2 Q. Who signed this document, sir?

3 A. I signed it.

4 Q. And what is this document?

5 A. It's an interim combat report sent to the superior command,

6 wherein I report to them about the fact that the El Mujahedin sabotage

7 unit carried out a successful sabotage action in the area of the feature

8 673.

9 Q. What is this -- if you know, sir, what is this sabotage unit of

10 the El Mujahedin Detachment?

11 A. It is mentioned here, a sabotage group, but it could be any one of

12 the members of the detachment which, starting from my defence lines, go

13 into the depth of the territory and carry out a sabotage action. This was

14 probably written on the basis of the reports from the field; that's the

15 say, the 4th Mountain Battalion. It is on the basis of their report that

16 I pass this information on to the superior command.

17 Q. Thank you, Mr. Zilkic.

18 MR. MUNDIS: The Prosecution tenders this document into evidence,

19 Your Honours.

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

21 please be given an exhibit number.

22 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 791.

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: 792?

24 THE REGISTRAR: Oh, I'm sorry. I apologise, 792.

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

1 MR. MUNDIS: I'd ask that the witness now be shown PT2450, PT2450.

2 Q. Sir, I'd ask you to take a look at this document, and can you tell

3 the Trial Chamber what this document is.

4 A. This document, just as any other document coming from the superior

5 command down to me, is an order ordering for me to give an assignment to

6 200 men out of my unit to carry out the evacuation of the wounded. It

7 says here that this is to be done for the purposes of the El Mujahedin

8 Detachment.

9 Q. And did you, in fact, receive this order of the 35th Division?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. What steps, if any, sir, did you take to carry out this order?

12 A. I assessed the units and decided how many men could be taken out

13 of each of them, and I told the commanders that the men I selected should

14 be at a previously designated place at a time previously set.

15 Q. And when you say you told the commanders that the men you selected

16 should be at a designated place at a certain time, which commanders are

17 you referring to?

18 A. I'm referring to my battalion commanders.

19 Q. And earlier, sir, you testified about seconding personnel to the

20 El Mujahedin Detachment. Is this the type of order under which you would

21 make those secondments?

22 A. This, too, was one of such.

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: If I may just interrupt. These casualties that are

24 being collected and evacuated, are they from your army or from the enemy

25 army or from both?

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this primarily refers

2 to our casualties, because every offensive action normally implies that as

3 a result of that there would be killed and wounded. They relied on their

4 commanders in this case to bring in the men necessary to evacuate the

5 wounded, to do that.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

7 You may proceed, Mr. Mundis.

8 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President.

9 We would tender this document into evidence, please.

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

11 please be given an exhibit number.

12 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 793.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

14 MR. MUNDIS: Can the witness now be shown PT2507, PT2507.

15 Q. Sir, can you tell us what this document is.

16 A. This document of the 35th Division issues an order to me for the

17 purposes of the El Mujahid Detachment, which had some of its units in my

18 line of defence, that elements of the El Mujahid Units should be pulled

19 out of the area of combat activities because of upcoming combat

20 activities.

21 Q. Now, if I understood you, sir, you said that elements of the El

22 Mujahid Unit should be pulled out of the area of combat activities because

23 of upcoming combat activities. Is that what you said, sir?

24 A. I said that they have to be pulled out of the stand-by mode, so to

25 speak, the area for stand-by, because you'll remember that we looked at

1 earlier documents referring to "stand-by forces."

2 Forces that are to be on the -- on stand-by are normally pulled

3 out of the zone of active combat into the stand-by area, which is the 9th

4 Kilometre. This was where they normally went to rest and awaiting for

5 orders to engage in combat.

6 Q. Now, sir, there's reference in paragraph -- in the introductory

7 paragraph and in the first paragraph to "Asim Camdzic Company."

8 Can you tell the Trial Chamber what the Asim Camdzic Company is or

9 was.

10 A. This unit varied in size, between 50 and 80 men, who were part of

11 my composition, and I used them for interventions along the lines of

12 defence. However, the unit was primarily composed of soldiers who were,

13 let's say, practicing believers, more devout believers, and so they were

14 in that way similar to the soldiers from the El Mujahedin Unit.

15 MR. MUNDIS: We'd ask that this document be admitted into

16 evidence, Your Honours.

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

18 please be given an exhibit number.

19 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 794.

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

21 MR. MUNDIS: Can the witness now be shown PT2511, PT2511.

22 Q. Do you see this document, sir?

23 A. Yes.

24 MR. MUNDIS: If we could scroll down.

25 Q. Do you recognise the signature on this document, sir?

1 A. Yes, I do.

2 Q. Who signed this document?

3 A. My Chief of Staff, Hidajet Vrabac [phoen].

4 Q. Can you tell us what this document relates to.

5 A. This document is a follow-up on the previous order to pull out the

6 Asim Camdzic unit deep behind the lines for rest and to put the 2nd

7 Manoeuvre Battalion in its stead, to be on stand-by and reserve for these

8 units.

9 Therefore, the superior command is being informed about the fact

10 that the previous order was complied with and the way in which it was

11 complied with is described.

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Could we turn to the next page, please.

13 MR. MUNDIS: We would tender this document into evidence, Your

14 Honours.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

16 please be given an exhibit number.

17 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 795.

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

19 MR. MUNDIS: We ask that the witness now be shown the document

20 481, marked for identification.

21 Perhaps if we could scroll down or see the full part of the first

22 page in Bosnian.

23 Q. Sir, do you recognise this document?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Can you tell us -- can you tell us, please, what this document is,

1 sir.

2 A. I wouldn't be able to tell you that before I see its contents.

3 Q. Well, let me ask you this before we go to the next page: Who

4 signed this document, sir?

5 A. I signed it.

6 MR. MUNDIS: Okay. Could we now go to the next page of this

7 document, please.

8 Q. What is this document, sir?

9 A. The title itself says that it's an analysis of preparation and

10 execution of combat activities during Operation F-95, and this is the

11 operation that commenced on the 10th of September. That's what it refers

12 to.

13 Q. And what was the purpose of this document?

14 A. This document was made on the 16th of October; therefore, after

15 the end of combat activities. Probably the division command ordered that

16 an analysis of all combat activities be made. We complied with that and

17 submitted an analysis. What was meant by that was that one ought to

18 present the good sides and the bad sides of these activities, strengths

19 and weaknesses of combat activities.

20 Q. Thank you, Mr. Zilkic.

21 MR. MUNDIS: The Prosecution would tender this document into

22 evidence.

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is now admitted into evidence. May it

24 please be given an exhibit number. I guess it will be Exhibit number 481.

25 THE REGISTRAR: That's correct, Your Honour, Exhibit number 481.

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

2 MR. MUNDIS:

3 Q. Now, Mr. Zilkic, in response to my last question, you mentioned

4 the end of combat activities, and I'd like to ask you, sir: Do you recall

5 approximately when the combat activities ended in the Vozuca area?

6 A. I know that, in the Vozuca area, the combat activities ended on

7 the 15th of September; however, in deep in the Ozren area, the activities

8 ended on the 10th of October.

9 MR. MUNDIS: I'd ask that the witness now be shown PT2714.

10 Q. Sir, do you see the document on the screen in front of you?

11 A. I do; although, it's quite unclear.

12 Q. Can you tell the Trial Chamber what this document is, sir.

13 A. This is an order of the General Staff addressed to the brigades

14 and division commands on the cease-fire.

15 Q. Which -- which cease-fire?

16 A. It speaks of the cessation of all combat activities.

17 MR. MUNDIS: The Prosecution tenders this document into evidence.

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

19 please be given an exhibit number.

20 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 796.

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

22 [Trial Chamber confers]

23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I apologise. I

24 haven't had time to raise my objection before the admission of the

25 document.

1 First of all, we didn't have the opportunity to look at page 2.

2 Secondly, I don't believe that the foundation was laid for the admission

3 of this document through this witness.

4 Could we please have the document back on our screens again.

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Mundis.

6 MR. MUNDIS: Your Honours, the witness did mention that the

7 activities in the, as he put it - this is on line 19 of page 49 - "in deep

8 in the Ozren area, the activities ended on the 10th of October." That's

9 what this document relates to, at least in part.

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Madam Vidovic is also raising the point of

11 seeing page 2.

12 MR. MUNDIS: Yeah. We can certainly see page 2.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: I would like to see page 3 as well in the English.

14 Yes, Madam Vidovic.

15 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I only see a general

16 order to the corps and some divisions, which definitely do not include the

17 35th Division. Besides, I don't see the mention of either Ozren or Vozuca

18 anywhere in this document, or are we perhaps speaking of a different

19 document?

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Mundis.

21 MR. MUNDIS: Well, that's what I just indicated, that -- that the

22 document relates to, at least in part, cessation of hostilities, a

23 cease-fire on the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

24 I'm in the Trial Chamber's hands. If the -- if the document is

25 not to be admitted, we'll just move on. I can't take it any farther with

1 this witness, Your Honour.

2 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, as far as I could

3 hear, the witness said that on the 10th of October, the combat activities

4 ended in Ozren. It is quite evident that the order is dated the 11th of

5 October. That's the reason why I intervened. I don't see that the

6 witness has any connection with this document.

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can we see the first page of this document, please.

8 Sir, what made you stop hostilities on the 10th of -- the 10th of

9 October, 1995?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The order of the commander of the

11 35th Division, based on the order of the corps commander.

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Did you receive the order of the -- of the

13 commander of the 35th Division?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't remember exactly, but I

15 believe I did. Cessation of hostilities was ordered. Whether it was

16 ordered in writing or orally, it was ordered.

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Did you ever receive this document that's on the

18 screen?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Never.

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm afraid, Mr. Mundis, we can't admit the document

21 into evidence.

22 MR. MUNDIS: That's fine. We'll move on. Thank you.

23 Can the witness now be shown Exhibit PT2935.

24 Perhaps we should have this document marked for identification,

25 since it was discussed at least tangentially.

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Well, then it will remain marked for

2 identification as Exhibit 796.

3 MR. MUNDIS: This -- I should also indicate for the record that

4 PT2935 consists of a number of different maps. I'm not sure if it would

5 be best to -- well, we'll take it one step at a time.

6 Q. Mr. Zilkic, do you recognise the map on the screen in front of

7 you?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Can you tell the Trial Chamber what this map is, sir.

10 A. This is a map of the decision of the commander of the 328th

11 Brigade for defence, which is probably accompanied by a written order to

12 defend the lines.

13 Here, one can see all the elements of the combat disposition of my

14 brigade.

15 Q. And what is the -- what is the date of this map, sir?

16 A. The 1st of March of 1995.

17 Q. And to the best of your recollection, sir, is this map accurate as

18 of that date?

19 A. As soon as I signed it, it ought to be correct and accurate.

20 Q. And did you, in fact, sign it?

21 A. As far as I can make out the signature, yes. Yes.

22 MR. MUNDIS: Can we please go to the next map in this PT.

23 Q. Sir, do you recognise this map on the screen in front of you?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Can you tell the Trial Chamber what this map is.

1 A. This is a map accompanying the order of the commander of the 35th

2 Division to launch offensive activities.

3 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Can the witness please

4 repeat the last sentence.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This relates to Operation Farz 95.

6 MR. MUNDIS: Can we please go to the next map.

7 Q. Do you recognise this map, sir?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Can you tell -- can you tell us what this map is.

10 A. One in a series of maps on the basis of the decision of the

11 commander of the 328th Brigade for defence. However, it is entitled

12 "Sabur" because it was made on the basis of the order of the commander of

13 the 35th Division.

14 Q. Can you tell us what "Sabur" refers to. What is that?

15 A. It's a code name for this decision of the commander.

16 Q. And do you recall, sir, or have any recollection of when Sabur

17 occurred?

18 A. I don't remember the exact date. But if I looked at the different

19 features that we had on the defence lines, I could perhaps set a time on

20 that in terms of several months' span.

21 Q. Okay.

22 MR. MUNDIS: Perhaps if we could then go to the upper half of the

23 map, and if we could zoom in on the upper half of the map.

24 That's good.

25 Q. And if we need to zoom in further, sir, we can do that. Can you,

1 based on the lines estimated, give us an approximate time period for this

2 map?

3 A. It is quite difficult to do that.

4 Let's see feature 702, 705, so that I can -- I can establish

5 whether it was before the 25th of May or after.

6 MR. MUNDIS: If we could scroll over to the right a little bit,

7 please.

8 A. The region of Podsjelovo, the area of Podsjelovo is what I'm

9 interested in.

10 Q. Do you see the Podsjelovo area on this map, sir?

11 A. It's vaguely visible, but I do believe that this reflected the

12 situation before the 25th of May; meaning before the Operation Proljece.

13 Q. Thank you.

14 MR. MUNDIS: Can we please see the next map.

15 Q. Sir, do you recognise this map?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Can you tell the Trial Chamber what this map represents.

18 A. This is the 35th Division's commander's decision for attack and

19 the disposition of units.

20 Q. And which operation does this map relate to, sir?

21 A. The Farz 95 operation.

22 MR. MUNDIS: Can we please go to the next map.

23 Q. Can you tell the Trial Chamber what this map represents, sir.

24 A. This map reflects one of my decisions for attack operations in the

25 area of Podsjelovo.

1 MR. MUNDIS: And if we could, please, zoom right into the middle

2 of the map where the markings "Odred El Mujahedin" can be seen.

3 Q. Now, sir, based on the markings on this map, can you give us an

4 approximate date or time period when this map was created.

5 A. I cannot. This map is not clear to me, because with parts of my

6 units, I operated in the area of Garici, which is a hamlet of the

7 Imamovici village, where on the 26th or at the end of June and the

8 beginning of July, this major battle took place, the one that I referred

9 to previously.

10 I don't know whether this was a correction of a technical --

11 tactical position or maybe the objective was something else, so there's

12 very little that I can explain on this map.

13 Q. Okay. Well, can you tell us, sir, the markings, with respect to

14 the "Odred El Mujahedin," can you explain the three arrows that appear

15 emanating from -- from those words.

16 A. You can see on this map that the objective of the combat

17 activities of the El Mujahedin are the three elevations, 726, 702, and

18 706.

19 Q. And, earlier this morning, you told us about those three elevation

20 points. Did the El Mujahedin Detachment take those three elevation

21 points?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. When?

24 A. On the -- I think it was around the 25th of May - I cannot be

25 specific - 25th of May, 1995.

1 MR. MUNDIS: And if we could, please, just zoom out.

2 Q. I would ask you, sir, if you recognise the signature on the bottom

3 right-hand corner of this map.

4 A. I recognise the signature.

5 Q. Now, sir, based on what you just told us, that you think the El

6 Mujahedin Detachment took the three elevation points, 726, 702, and 706,

7 on -- around 25 May 1995, can you comment on the approximate date of this

8 map, in terms of what's depicted?

9 Would -- would the map have been made before or after the 25th of

10 May, 1995?

11 A. It was certainly produced before the 25th of May. Had it been

12 produced afterwards, then these three elevation points would have been in

13 my area of responsibility, but I can only speculate as to the exact time.

14 Q. Thank you.

15 MR. MUNDIS: And if we can finally see the last map in this --

16 JUDGE HARHOFF: Wait, hold on. Before we leave this map, I would

17 like to ascertain the implications of this map, because I'm unsure about

18 how the Court should interpret this.

19 Notably, I wish to know whether this map was drawn up as part of

20 an order to the units of the El Mujahid Detachment which were applied in

21 this particular attack and handed down to those units by the witness, or

22 whether the map came about as a result of a message from the El Mujahid

23 Detachment that this is the way they intended to go about it.

24 MR. MUNDIS:

25 Q. Mr. Zilkic, did you hear the Judge's questions; and if you

1 understood what he's asking you, could you please answer those questions?

2 A. Your Honours, as I already said, each map accompanied by an order

3 in writing. This map depicts the actions of my units; and, most probably,

4 it was drafted on the basis of the 35th Division commander's order.

5 The El Mujahedin Detachment is my adjacent unit, and this map

6 shows that detachment as an adjacent unit which works in concerted action

7 with my units, but which has nothing to do with me or with my units.

8 Neither do I report to that unit, nor do I send any documents to

9 that unit.

10 JUDGE HARHOFF: So are we to understand, then, that the operation

11 to be carried out by El Mujahid Detachment, which on the map is coloured

12 with a green colour, that this was something that went on completely

13 beyond your control.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

15 JUDGE HARHOFF: While the other action just to the north-west

16 of -- of the El Mujahid action, there are some other actions indicated in

17 the yellow colour. Were, then, these actions under your control?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, as I stated a minute

19 ago, this is the decision of the commander of the 328th Brigade, which was

20 forwarded to the commanders of battalions, and each order is accompanied

21 by a map.

22 You see the area of responsibility of my units; and, primarily, in

23 that operation, I'm interested in my units. Our adjacent unit to the

24 right effected combat operations, but I had no -- apart from being

25 adjacent unit, I had with them no other links.

1 JUDGE HARHOFF: I understood that much. My question is: If the

2 actions coloured in yellow, were actions carried out by soldiers under

3 your command and whether your area of responsibility is indicated as being

4 between the black abrupted lines there -- there's a dot and a line, and a

5 dot and a line marked in black that sort of cuts the front line in two

6 places. My question is whether your area of responsibility was then

7 between these two lines.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. My AOR was between those two

9 lines, but I cannot locate it temporally, this decision. I don't know

10 what it was attached to, whether this was an operation of the 35th

11 Division or whether I wanted by this operation to improve my tactical

12 position, because this concerned the hamlet of the Imamovici village,

13 where we had lost some ground.

14 I don't know which decision this map refers to because there were

15 several decisions, and each decision or order was accompanied by a map.

16 JUDGE HARHOFF: That's fine. Thank you, sir.

17 MR. MUNDIS:

18 Q. Mr. Zilkic, if you also see on this map, to the south-west of the

19 markings "Odred El Mujahedin," we see "4.bb." Do you sigh that, sir?

20 Do you see that, sir?

21 A. Yes, I see that.

22 Q. What do the figures "4.bb" refer to on this map?

23 A. It refers to the 4th Mountain Battalion of my brigade.

24 Q. Do you recall, sir, what that unit was doing in the position

25 south-west of the El Mujahedin Detachment at the time this map was

1 created?

2 A. They were maintaining a decisive defence.

3 Q. Thank you.

4 MR. MUNDIS: Can we please go to the next map.

5 Q. Mr. Zilkic, do you recognise this map?

6 A. Yes, I do recognise it.

7 Q. Can you tell us what this map is, sir.

8 A. This is a map produced by my chief of artillery, Captain Musad

9 Halilovic, whereby he plans activities for offensive actions.

10 Q. And on the upper right-hand corner, sir, do you recognise the

11 signature on this map?

12 A. Yes. This is my signature.

13 Q. And do you know, sir, or can you tell us based upon the markings

14 on the map the approximate time period when this map was created?

15 A. Since it's not dated, two versions are possible. One version is

16 15th of September. I know that this part of the territory had been

17 liberated. But even before that, we had carried out a number of combat

18 activities in this area. We tried to capture the feature Blizna, which we

19 were not successful at. So this could be in that period.

20 Q. And what time period is that when you unsuccessfully tried to

21 capture the feature Blizna?

22 A. Throughout the war, on several occasions; maybe seven or eight

23 occasions. But I can tell you that this was before the 15th of September,

24 because the plan concerned division plans for artillery which was sent

25 from chief of artillery of the 35th Division to the chief of artillery of

1 the 328th Brigade to make it an integral part of his plans.

2 Q. Thank you, Mr. Zilkic.

3 MR. MUNDIS: The Prosecution tenders this collection of six maps

4 into evidence.

5 [Trial Chamber confers]

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Mundis, this question comes to you. The

7 witness has been telling us that these maps, each one of these maps, goes

8 with an oral order. Can the Court expect that PT2935 -- I beg your

9 pardon, I said "an oral order." A written order.

10 Can the Court expect that PT2935 has written orders that go with

11 each of these maps?

12 MR. MUNDIS: That -- that is what the witness has told us, Your

13 Honours, but we do not seem to have all of these orders or any of these

14 orders in our possession or on the exhibit list.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Which is which? Is it all of these orders or any

16 of these orders?

17 MR. MUNDIS: Well, we have looked for the orders when I was

18 proofing this witness, and we have not been able to -- to locate the

19 orders that go with these -- with these maps. So that leads me to believe

20 either that they are not in our possession; or, if they are in our

21 possession, we have not been able to sufficiently link them with these

22 maps.

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: How do you -- how do you anticipate the Court to

24 comprehend these maps? They are without dates. They are without --

25 MR. MUNDIS: Well --

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: -- written orders.

2 MR. MUNDIS: The witness has given us indications of the

3 approximately dates of the maps. The maps are simply aids to

4 understanding other evidence that has been led or will be led in terms of

5 where units were located, simply to place these various units into

6 locations at approximate time periods.

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Mr. Mundis.

8 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Mundis, I have to say that I am increasingly

9 uncomfortable with the way in which evidence is tendered in this trial.

10 This is a general comment that I have not only for the admission of

11 evidence today but also at many previous hearings.

12 Let me take as a example and a starting point your tendering of

13 these six maps into evidence. Apart from the fifth map to which I had

14 some questions to put, I have been unable to understand the meaning of

15 these other remaining five maps, and I am unsure about what evidence the

16 Prosecution expects the Chamber to elicit from these maps combined with

17 the evidence offered -- or the testimony offered by the witness.

18 My suggestion is that if you wish to have these maps tendered,

19 apart from the one that we did look at in detail, you should explain to us

20 what it is you want us to learn from them.

21 The same goes, if I can take some other examples of the documents

22 that you have just previously tendered into evidence, Exhibit 794 and 795,

23 for instance, were the ones that dealt with the EMD units being pulled out

24 of the lines of defence.

25 You can't just leave us there without seeking to -- to clarify

1 just why this is relevant. We have heard earlier in this trial some

2 evidence that point to the consequences of EMD being pulled out of the

3 front lines.

4 My question is now: If these two documents that you have tendered

5 into evidence, and which we have admitted, are relevant to -- to that

6 particular incident or are relevant to something else; and if so, then

7 what?

8 So my general comment is that as much as I understand and

9 appreciate your effort to go quickly and move quickly through this trial,

10 you also have to appreciate the need for the Chamber to be given a better

11 opportunity to understand the meaning and the importance and the

12 significance and the probative -- the probative value of the documents

13 that you put; otherwise, we'll be at a loss.

14 I mean, look at it. We're almost close to 800 exhibits. If we

15 assume that just the average number of pages attached to each of these 800

16 exhibits amount to five or ten pages, then we are already up looking at a

17 body of evidence halfway through the trial of somewhere between four and

18 eight thousand pages. This is -- this will be extremely difficult for us

19 to grasp in the end when we come to the closure of the trial.

20 So I would therefore urge parties - and it goes for the Defence as

21 well - to be more careful, to make sure that the Chamber has understood

22 what you want to show with all the evidence that you are putting before

23 us.

24 Thank you.

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: PT2935 is admitted into evidence. May it please be

1 given an exhibit number.

2 JUDGE HARHOFF: I'm sorry, I'll have to dissent from that

3 decision. I will not go along with the admission of these six maps for

4 the reasons that I have just explained.

5 If anything, I will go along with admission of the map number 5

6 that you exposed.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 797.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much..

9 Yes, Mr. Mundis.

10 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President. The Prosecution has no

11 further questions for the witness.

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Vidovic.

13 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

14 Cross-examination by Ms. Vidovic:

15 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Zilkic.

16 A. Good afternoon.

17 Q. My name is Vasvija Vidovic, and I'm going to examine you on behalf

18 of the Defence of General Delic. The nature of cross-examination is such

19 that most of my questions will be answerable by a "yes" or "no." If you,

20 however, do feel the need to provide a broader explanation, please feel

21 free to do so.

22 Since we are speaking the same language and we have this problem

23 with the transcript, please do try and I will try as well to make a break

24 between my question and your answer, so that the transcript can reflect my

25 questions and your answers.

1 Have you understood?

2 A. Yes, I have.

3 Q. Thank you very much.

4 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we retrieve the last exhibit

5 that we were shown, and this is -- this will be the departure point for my

6 cross-examination. I believe that this was Exhibit 797.

7 Q. Mr. Zilkic, asked by the Prosecutor about these maps, you've just

8 provided some explanations.

9 First of all, I would like to ask you as follows: This map

10 represents a schematic of an attack order.

11 A. This was for the defence.

12 Q. Or defence, as the case may be.

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. But this is a schematic.

15 Do you agree with me that every map must bear the beginning of

16 combat activities and the end of combat activities?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Do you agree with me that this map does not bear any date to end

19 the combat activities?

20 A. That's correct.

21 Q. Do you see that?

22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could we please zoom

23 out so that we see the document in its entirety. Fine.

24 Q. Could you explain why there are no dates here.

25 A. Yes, I can. On the basis of the commander of the 35th Division

1 for defence wherein his order, he determines the areas of responsibility

2 for the defence to our brigades. In my -- in my order, in my decision, I

3 determine which are the areas of responsibility of my battalions with all

4 the elements, such as headquarters, command posts, artillery positions, et

5 cetera. That decision is valid and in effect until the situation out in

6 the field changes.

7 So if we go on attack and we capture new positions, then the

8 decision will be changed, because some unit will have to take the newly

9 reached lines and fortify them, et cetera.

10 Q. Fine.

11 A. So the end, instead of bearing a date, may read: "Until the

12 further commander's decision."

13 Q. And this is what is lacking here.

14 A. Yes.

15 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we go to the last map of this --

16 shown by the Prosecutor, and I believe that this is the last page of this

17 document.

18 Q. Mr. Zilkic, please, we see map -- ERN number 0466-2140. This is

19 the figure in the top right-hand corner. Do you agree that this map bears

20 no indication of action beginning and action ending?

21 A. I agree.

22 Q. Do you agree that this should be noted on all maps because all

23 maps reflect a certain combat activity?

24 A. I agree.

25 Q. I would be right in concluding, would I not, that this is a

1 schematic, a map -- a draft of a map which as such was not, in fact,

2 adopted?

3 A. Yes.

4 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. We can put

5 this document away.

6 Q. Mr. Zilkic, every time there is a map which does not have the

7 starting date and the closing date of an action, this isn't a map valid

8 for that combat activity because it does not indicate either the date of

9 commencement or the date of ending of a particular combat action. Is that

10 right?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Thank you. I will move on to a different topic now.

13 I will go back to the start of your testimony and some questions

14 put to you by the Prosecutor. You gave us some of your professional

15 background information.

16 Am I right in concluding that you did not graduate from the

17 military academy?

18 A. Yes, you're right.

19 Q. The rank of a brigade commander called for an officer, a graduate

20 of a military academy; is that right?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. However, in that area, there were no officers of that rank who had

23 been educated or there weren't enough of them.

24 A. Yes. There were very few of them.

25 Q. Very well. As of March 1993, you were at the head of the

1 Municipal Staff of the Territorial Defence in Zavidovici; is that right?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. You explained that, for a while, you were a member of the 318th

4 Brigade; and that, upon the establishment of the 328th Brigade, you were

5 appointed its commander. Is that right?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Tell us, please, whether in the Zavidovici area there was another

8 commander by the last name of Zilkic, or were you the only one in that

9 area with that family name?

10 A. I was the only commander with that family name.

11 Q. In the Zavidovici area. Very well.

12 The command of your brigade was located in the centre of

13 Zavidovici; is that right?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. You said that the 328th Brigade, in the course of 1995, operated

16 within the 35th Division; is that right?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Its commander was Mr. Hasanagic, and it also had a command post in

19 Zavidovici; is that right?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. In addition to your brigade, part of the 35th Division or

22 subordinated to the 35th Division were also the 327th Maglaj and 329th

23 Kakanj Brigade; is that right?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Were there other brigades?

1 A. No.

2 Q. In Zavidovici, during the war the civilian authorities were

3 operational, were they not?

4 A. Yes, fully.

5 Q. The public security service was operational, was it not?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Can you tell us who was at the head of the public security service

8 in 1995 in Zavidovici, if you remember.

9 A. I don't.

10 Q. Can you tell us who the municipal mayor was in 1995, if you know.

11 A. I believe it was Husein Zilkic, but I'm not sure about that.

12 Q. Husein Zilkic, is he a relative of yours perhaps?

13 A. Yes, extended family.

14 Q. The municipality had its executive committee, did it not? Do you

15 recall who headed the committee?

16 A. Mr. Nedzad Polic was at the head of the committee, I believe.

17 Q. Nedzad Polic. Thank you.

18 I will now be asking you about your today's evidence, above all

19 about the El Mujahedin Detachment.

20 You stated that you met the members of the detachment for the

21 first time in early 1995. Is that right?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. You described several encounters and meetings with them, and the

24 Prosecutor showed you documents speaking of joint combat activities

25 carried out by the units in the ground together with the El Mujahedin

1 Detachment, including your unit.

2 Listening to your testimony, I gained the impression that - and

3 I'll please ask you to tell me if I'm right - that the combat activities

4 carried out together with that unit did not present any difficulties.

5 They received your [as interpreted] orders, and they complied with

6 them. Am I right in saying that? Is that correct?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. In other words, you didn't have any problems with them, did you?

9 A. I had many problems.

10 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I just wish to make a

11 correction of the transcript.

12 At page 69, line 24 I asked the witness: "They received orders,

13 and they complied with them." "Your orders" was entered into the

14 transcript, and I did not say that. So the word "your" should be struck.

15 I didn't put that to the witness, if that can be corrected, please.

16 Q. I spoke of other orders, not yours. You understood me correctly,

17 didn't you?

18 A. [No verbal response]

19 Q. You spoke of them receiving orders from the command of the 35th

20 Division and complying with them, and you replied that, to the best of

21 your understanding, everything worked well.

22 What I want to put to you, however, is this: When it came to

23 other units of the BH army, your adjacent units and brigades, with those

24 units you didn't have any problems; is that right?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. With the El Mujahedin Detachment, you did have problems; is that

2 right?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. These problems were the result of differing outlooks, different

5 views with regard to life and religion when it came to that unit; am I

6 right?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Your fighters, excluding the fighters of the Camdzic unit which

9 was under you - but I will go back to that unit later on - so excluding

10 that unit, your fighters did have serious problems with that detachment,

11 did they not?

12 A. Yes, that's correct.

13 Q. The Prosecutor showed you certain documents concerning combat

14 activities and training which was ordered. I will also show you these

15 documents.

16 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Now, can the witness be shown

17 document -- or rather, P2209.

18 Q. Please look at the document. This is a document from the security

19 services department of the 3rd Corps sent to the security administration.

20 Please focus on the content. It relates to the training that the

21 El Mujahedin members had with members of your brigade. That's the reason

22 why I'm showing you this document.

23 At some point in your evidence, you stated that the training was

24 carried out according to the plan of the El Mujahedin.

25 Before I invite you to comment upon this document, tell me, sir,

1 did you have an order that the training should be conducted in the way

2 described in this document?

3 Please read the document. I will quote one portion of it which is

4 relevant to us: "Through intelligence work, we have found out that

5 members of the El Mujahedin Unit tried to take advantage of the joint

6 training with members of the 328th Mountain Brigade to win BH army

7 soldiers over."

8 Persons conducting the training are mentioned, and then it

9 says: "The mentioned persons directed all the training towards religion,

10 prayer, and prohibition of alcohol and cigarettes, emphasising that they

11 are on the path of Allah, and at the same time insulting the state

12 leadership and negating our state and the success of the BH army."

13 First, I'll ask you this: Was the order related to such training?

14 A. I don't know what it addressed.

15 Q. I mean the order to you.

16 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Can please the counsel and

17 the witness not overlap. Can the witness please repeat his answer.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] [No interpretation]

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can I interrupt here.

20 Madam Vidovic.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did --

22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. Witness, I'm sorry, we were overlapping. I asked you kindly to

24 wait for me to finish my question.

25 I asked you, if you remember, whether the order implied or

1 referred to this part -- this type of training. So please wait for my

2 question before you answer.

3 A. The order did not state what sort of training this would be. What

4 I know, based on my knowledge, is that the training was conducted

5 precisely in the manner described in this report. In other words, 95 per

6 cent or 90 per cent of it was religious training, and it was precisely

7 focused on activities such as these.

8 In order to work upon our members, it was to induce them to act as

9 they did, as fighters on the path of Allah. What is not clear from this

10 is that the training was held by the members of the El Mujahid, who were

11 of Bosnian origin from rural areas, who embraced the faith and were very

12 religious but very poorly educated.

13 Q. Mr. Zilkic, you say that they were religious and devout believers,

14 but does this mean that they ought to negate the state leadership and the

15 successes of the BH army?

16 A. No. No, not at all.

17 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, can this document be

18 admitted into evidence.

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

20 please be given an exhibit number.

21 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 798.

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] At this point, I want the witness to

24 be shown document P2144.

25 This document was admitted into evidence yesterday.

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: What's the exhibit number, ma'am?

2 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 774.

3 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

4 Q. Witness, please look at this document. Will you agree with me

5 that on the 1st of July, 1995, that on that date it was also registered

6 that serious problems were noted during training, where members of your

7 brigade were humiliated, the brigade as such was refuted.

8 There was the -- the flag of the state and the state as such were

9 being offended, and some 25 of your fighters left the training and others

10 announced that they would follow suit?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Do you agree that such conduct is not something that was typical

13 of the members of the BH army, who normally comply with orders?

14 A. I fully agree.

15 Q. You were aware of such incidents, were you not, you personally?

16 A. These reports were made on the basis of my reports.

17 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Very well. At this moment, I would

18 like the witness to be shown document D658, Your Honours, please.

19 Q. Witness, please take a look at this document. This is another

20 document of the military security service dated the 21st of March, 1995.

21 It concerns this vandalisation of gravestones on a Serbian

22 cemetery; and in the document, it is said that members of the El Mujahedin

23 Detachment came and destroyed some gravestones. It says, when the

24 soldiers from the 328th Brigade warned them not to do it, the members of

25 the El Mujahedin Detachment removed them under a threat of arms.

1 Does this document describe the event as it happened?

2 A. Yes. This report was also prepared on the basis of my reports,

3 the reports from my units. My soldiers used to pass this graveyard for

4 more than a year, and it was left intact while they were doing so.

5 Q. May I conclude that the detachment members drew weapons and

6 pointed them at your fighters?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Was this a typical behaviour of a BH army unit to point their

9 weapons at another BH army unit?

10 A. It wasn't.

11 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] May this document be admitted into

12 evidence, Your Honours, please.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

14 please be given an exhibit number.

15 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 799.

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

17 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Please, may the witness be shown at

18 this moment document D647, please.

19 Q. This is a brief document. Please read it. This is another

20 document of the military security service administration of the army

21 General Staff, dated 20th of July, 1995, describing the conduct of the EMD

22 members.

23 I would like to ask you as follows: In July 1995, the area of

24 Savci and Krivaja --

25 A. Salaka [phoen].

1 Q. That area of Salaka-Krivaja was in the AOR of your brigade; is

2 that correct?

3 A. That's correct.

4 Q. And this document states that the incident involving the El

5 Mujahedin Detachment members, where they stopped ABiH members, when they

6 were taken towards Paljenik and then released, when they forced their

7 girls to cut each other's hair. You must have heard about this incident.

8 A. I did hear.

9 Q. This document was sent to the State Security Service for

10 investigation most probably, but now I would like to ask you

11 this: Please, sir, in all these documents, we have El Mujahid Detachment

12 members. We don't have none of these perpetrators identified by name.

13 A. No, we don't.

14 Q. Out in the field, generally, could you know who those persons

15 were? Could you identify them when such incidents happened?

16 A. I must state here that all El Mujahedin Detachment members had

17 arms; whereas, all the weapons of my units was on the line of defence.

18 This is why they could have their way. We could not call anybody, because

19 they were mostly Arabs or they were accompanied by Bosniaks who were part

20 of their detachment.

21 Q. Now, Mr. Zilkic, when it comes to those Arabs, as you put it,

22 please, the El Mujahedin Detachment was not the only unit in that area

23 which was peopled by Arabs; in other words, I would like to say this: In

24 the area of Central Bosnia, not only Arabs were part of the El Mujahedin

25 Detachment. There were some other groups. Am I correct in saying so?

1 A. There were units of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina which had in

2 its composition - and primarily by this I mean the 7th Muslim and 4th

3 Muslim from Konjic, which had such members; there were some other units -

4 but mostly they were in the El Mujahid Department.

5 Q. So you claim that there were such members in other units, but you

6 were not a member of neither the 7th Muslim, neither the -- nor the 4th

7 Brigade from Konjica. So you don't know what was the relationship between

8 the Arabs in those units.

9 A. Correct, I did not.

10 Q. But my question is: You personally did not hear of other Arab

11 groups, apart from the El Mujahedin Detachment in this area.

12 A. I did not hear of any establishment of any group that would be

13 organised. A unit, should I put it this way? I did not hear that there

14 was any other unit.

15 Q. In the 5th Battalion -- or your 5th Battalion was headquartered at

16 Imamovici; am I right in saying so?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Where was it headquartered?

19 A. The 5th Battalion was -- had its main command post at Borovnice

20 and forward command post at Mramorje when it was working in that

21 direction. But when it was complete, battalion at its forward command post

22 at Curici.

23 Q. Fine. But you mentioned that you had your communications centre

24 in Imamovici?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. Did you visit that CC ever?

2 A. That communications centre was established only for that

3 operation; and after that, it was moved.

4 Q. Did you go to the area of Imamovici?

5 A. Yes. I did go to Imamovici.

6 Q. Was there any Arab unit that you would know of?

7 A. I wouldn't know of that.

8 Q. Fine.

9 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, can we put this -- can

10 we tender this document into evidence. May it be given an exhibit number,

11 please.

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

13 please be given an exhibit number.

14 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 800.

15 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] And at this point, may we show the

16 witness the document P2238.

17 Q. Witness, please take a look. This is another military service --

18 military security service administration document, dated 29th of July,

19 1995.

20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] No. This is not that document, Your

21 Honours, at all. It's 2238.

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated]

23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] P2238. This one is okay. Thank

24 you.

25 I will correct myself. This is the right document.

1 Q. This is another document by the security service department, dated

2 the 15th of July, 1995, describing the conduct of the El Mujahedin

3 Detachment members in the zone of responsibility of the 328th Brigade, and

4 it describes an event.

5 This is a brief document, sir. Could you please take a look at

6 it. It describes an encounter of your fighters with the members of the El

7 Mujahedin Detachment on the line of defence.

8 I'm going to quote the relevant portion, the last sentence of the

9 third paragraph, and say: "They killed -- they entered the trench and

10 started shouting that this was not the way to guard the line, that they

11 were worse than the Chetniks, as they do not bow, and they just like --

12 they shave just like the Chetniks; and, moreover, they said that the next

13 time that they will kill them, the soldiers, if they find them not doing

14 the prayers."

15 The "namas" or the prayers is a prayer.

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. This document shows that your soldiers were threatened by them,

18 that they would be killed if they did not engage in prayer.

19 A. This is correct.

20 Q. This document depicts a real-life event that you know of.

21 A. I heard of this event.

22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, may we tender this

23 document into evidence.

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

25 please be given an exhibit number.

1 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 801.

2 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. And, now, Witness, I would like to ask you this: The Prosecutor

4 showed you a number of documents which concern joint combat activities,

5 and you said that the 35th Division issued orders.

6 However, regardless of orders on joint combat activities that you

7 saw, it would be fair to say that those documents do not reflect the real

8 state of affairs in the relationship between the El Mujahedin Detachment

9 and the superior commands of the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina. That

10 would be a fair assumption or conclusion.

11 A. Such a conclusion can be drawn.

12 Q. I understood that you testified - and I will be showing you this

13 later in my cross-examination - the 35th Division planned combat

14 activities in July and September. Did I understood you -- did I

15 understand you correctly that you received orders from them?

16 A. Yes. I received all my orders from them.

17 Q. Please, those orders encompassed also the El Mujahedin Detachment,

18 as you said. Is that not so?

19 A. This is right.

20 Q. But would you agree with me that the El Mujahedin Detachment

21 planned their combat activities on their own?

22 A. In reality, out on the ground, yes.

23 Q. Yes. Because your reports show - and I'm going to revisit them at

24 a later point - when it says "we proceeded as per El Mujahedin's plans"?

25 A. That's correct.

1 Q. This is because they did not trust the Army of Bosnia and

2 Herzegovina, and they reconnoitered the ground themselves. They did not

3 trust the preparations on the part of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina when

4 it came to combat operations. Is that so?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. So they did their own reconnaissance, did they not?

7 A. They did, but they always requested my engineers, "sapas," to

8 remove the land-mines if they were in front of our lines of defence.

9 Q. Correct. But they did not accept your suggestions or your

10 intelligence drawn from reconnaissance.

11 A. No, they did not.

12 Q. From their participation in combat activities, they made

13 conditional on many requests, and you were aware of that.

14 A. That's correct.

15 Q. For instance, one of such conditions was that they themselves

16 should determine when an action should start.

17 A. Yes. When they were ready, then we would launch our attacks or

18 actions.

19 Q. You were brigade commander. Could you make such conditions,

20 impose such conditions? Did other units impose such conditions?

21 A. No. What we could do was to report whether we are ready or not.

22 Q. But --

23 A. We received orders from our superior command.

24 Q. Yes. But you carried out orders, did you not?

25 A. That's correct.

1 Q. You did not impose any conditions on the start of an action or

2 such-like.

3 A. No, we did not.

4 Q. Actions that had already been planned were pushed back because

5 they would not take part in -- in such an action at a designated time. Is

6 that correct?

7 A. That's correct.

8 Q. The Prosecutor showed you document PT2450.

9 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we bring it onto the screen,

10 please, far moment, and that would be Exhibit 793, Your Honours. Exhibit

11 793.

12 Q. I would like you to take a look at it.

13 This is a document dated the 25th of August, 1995. Do you

14 remember this document had to do with re-subordination?

15 I want to ask you the following: You were ordered in this

16 particular situation; and in several other occasions that you testified to

17 the date, you were ordered to second a number of soldiers belonging to

18 your units.

19 Now, which soldiers you would re-subordinate to them was not a

20 decision that lay entirely in your hands. They also placed certain

21 conditions in that regard. Am I right?

22 A. Specifically speaking of my brigade, yes, as far as offensive

23 activities were concerned.

24 Now, when it came to seconding men to evacuate the wounded, this

25 is something that my battalion commanders would decide upon, because they

1 selected men who were less fit for fighting but could be used to do that

2 part of the job.

3 Q. You mention "offensive activities," and you say that was the case

4 when it comes to offensive activities. I want the Trial Chamber to

5 understand what you're saying.

6 It is true, is it not, that they were prepared to receive as

7 reinforcement in combat activities only the members of your Asim Camdzic

8 unit.

9 A. Not only them; sometimes I received an order to second a larger

10 number of men for offensive activities, in addition to Asim Camdzic.

11 Again, it was down to battalion commanders to choose the men who were the

12 fittest for combat, and not those who were -- who had high religious

13 fervor.

14 Q. What you're saying is they accepted those fighters, too.

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. My question to you was based on your statement, Mr. Zilkic, that

17 you gave to the OTP investigators, where you said that they only accepted

18 the fighters from the Asim Camdzic unit. That was the reason why I put

19 this question to you.

20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I will find what the reference is,

21 Your Honours, and we'll revisit the issue some other day.

22 Q. Let us go back to something else now. Let us clarify the issue of

23 the Asim Camdzic unit. You will agree with me that they -- that,

24 actually, the El Mujahedin Unit placed more trust in the Asim Camdzic unit

25 than in others.

1 A. Well, I don't know what this means, "they placed more trust in

2 them." They always sought for them to come as reinforcement in

3 activities, and they knew that they -- the unit was composed of religious

4 men. They did not put any additional questions about them.

5 Q. These were the men who wore beards, they prayed, they had

6 insignia.

7 A. But -- they did have beards, but they did not have any insignia.

8 Q. Not even the religious ones.

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: You're overlapping please. Both of you don't wait

10 for the other.

11 Madam Vidovic, I would expect at least you to remember this better

12 than the witness, because you are in this every day. The witness is here

13 only today, and he may forget to pause. Please do pause yourself, and

14 could you pause two seconds.

15 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise, Your Honours. I will

16 be finishing soon.

17 Q. Witness, we spoke of the Asim Camdzic Unit. You have agreed with

18 me that the unit was composed of men who had beards, who imitated Arabs in

19 their outward appearance and behaviour.

20 Please wait for my question to be finished.

21 A. I can say that they were all bearded, they engaged in daily

22 prayers, and they resembled Arabs, although they were our members.

23 Q. Very well.

24 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I suggest that I interrupt my

25 cross-examination at this point.

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Madam Vidovic.

2 Sir, unfortunately, we have come to the end of the day for

3 purposes of our case today. We are not done with you. You will have to

4 come back on Tuesday, the 13th of November at quarter past 2.00.

5 We are not going to be sitting on Monday, unfortunately. I'm

6 sorry about this. We had hoped that we could finish with you, and you

7 could get home -- go home before the weekend, but we've got to make space

8 for another case.

9 Okay? Thank you very much.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Court will adjourn to Tuesday, the 13th of November

12 at quarter past 2.00, in the same courtroom, II.

13 Court adjourned.

14 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.45 p.m.,

15 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 13th day of

16 November, 2007, at 2.15 p.m.

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