1

2 Thursday, 6 December 2007

3 [Open session]

4 [The accused entered court]

5 [The witness entered court]

6 --- Upon commencing at 9.17 a.m.

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Good morning to everybody today.

8 Mr. Registrar, could you please call the case.

9 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you and good morning, Your Honours. This is

10 case number IT-04-83-T, the Prosecutor versus Rasim Delic.

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

12 Could we have the appearances, please, starting with the

13 Prosecution.

14 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President.

15 Good morning, Your Honours, Counsel, and everyone in and around

16 the courtroom. Daryl Mundis and Matthias Neuner for the Prosecution,

17 assisted by our case manager, Alma Imamovic.

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

19 And for the Defence.

20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. Good

21 morning to my colleagues from the Prosecution, everybody in the courtroom

22 and around the courtroom. I'm Vasvija Vidovic, with Nicholas Robson,

23 representing General Delic, with our legal assistant, Lejla Gluhic.

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Madam Vidovic.

25 Just to put on the record that again we are -- the Chamber is

1 sitting pursuant to Rule 15 bis.

2 May the witness please be sworn in.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I solemnly declare

4 that I will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

5 WITNESS: PW-13

6 [Witness answered through interpreter]

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

8 Mr. Mundis.

9 You may be seated, sir, and good morning to you. Thank you very

10 much.

11 MR. NEUNER: Good morning, Your Honours.

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Good morning.

13 MR. NEUNER: With regard to today's witness, I would first like to

14 make a request for protective measures. Could we therefore please move

15 into private session.

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into private session.

17 [Private session]

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13 [Open session]

14 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're now in open session.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

16 Yes, Mr. Neuner.

17 MR. NEUNER: If document PT2157 could be shown, please, now.

18 I'm asking the usher to please, in the B/C/S, focus on the upper

19 part of the document, by even enlarging the handwriting a little bit which

20 is seen there. Thank you.

21 Q. PW-13, you see here in handwriting numbers "03" and "01". Could

22 you explain what "03" and "01" stand for?

23 A. The number "03" should stand for the third sector of the Military

24 Security Service administration. "01" should stand for the first

25 department of the Military Security Service administration.

1 Q. What is the name of the third department, the name standing behind

2 "03"?

3 A. I assume that there was a full title. I cannot remember the name

4 right now, but "03" referred to duties, and in our mutual communication,

5 we used to say "the Analysis Sector."

6 Q. What is the name for Department 01?

7 A. "01" was the Department for Counter-Intelligence Affairs.

8 Q. We see here in the handwriting that left of "03" and "01", the

9 word "Izet" is written. Could you explain what "Izet" stands for?

10 A. First, I'm trying to see if it's my handwriting here. I really

11 cannot recognise if it's my handwriting. "Izet," that word is a name.

12 Q. Could you give us the full name of Izet, please?

13 A. What I know is that in the Military Security Service

14 Administration, there were at least two people with the name "Izet," so I

15 really couldn't be sure here which one it is.

16 Q. If you look at the word "Vranduk" written below the "01", could

17 you explain what "Vranduk" means?

18 A. It's a secret name, code name, for operative processing or an

19 operative action that was approved by the commander of the Army of the

20 Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina in reference to planned activities or

21 activities that were supposed to be undertaken with the aim of more

22 comprehensive observation of the Mujahedin.

23 Q. Could you explain, if the word "Vranduk" is in handwriting on that

24 document, where would that document go to within the Security

25 Administration?

1 A. I didn't understand quite what you're asking. If I can ask you to

2 clarify. From which point in time?

3 Q. "Vranduk" is in handwriting on this document. What significance

4 do you attribute to this? What is the destiny of this document once

5 "Vranduk" is written in handwriting on it?

6 A. Sir, I am not sure who put this word there, who wrote the word

7 "Vranduk" here, but in principle I can say what I would do had I done

8 that. I can say this in principle.

9 Q. Go ahead.

10 A. When I received a document that, in my opinion, deserved attention

11 and the approval of Vranduk procedures, I would entrust the chief of the

12 first sector to carry out the activities that were planned, in accordance

13 with his purview of duties. And then if I also happened to have some

14 additional observations or requests of my own, then I would put that in my

15 handwriting in the document.

16 Q. And what -- where would Section 1 in your office store that

17 document?

18 A. At the time, the control file of operations that were approved for

19 processing were maintained by Izet Mustafic at the time. He was entrusted

20 with maintaining this file.

21 Q. You just mentioned a name, Izet Mustafic. If you look at the

22 document again and at the handwriting, we talked about "Izet" in the

23 handwriting. Would you now maybe try to understand what "Izet" might

24 refer to, the word "Izet" which is in handwriting on the document?

25 A. Had I written on the document, I would never have put it

1 separately, away from where my number was. I would not put the name so

2 far away from the number. So I'm just saying what I would do in

3 principle. I would put it just underneath this number, "01".

4 MR. NEUNER: Can I ask that the document please be admitted into

5 evidence.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

7 please be given an exhibit number.

8 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 956.

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.

10 MR. NEUNER: The next document is Exhibit 364. This is a document

11 from the, we can see, 21st of July. And if the usher exactly could again

12 focus on the handwriting on the B/C/S. Thank you. Maybe make it a little

13 bit smaller, yes.

14 Q. Again, we see here "01" in handwriting on the document. Could you

15 tell me what is meant by "01" here? Which section received the document?

16 A. "01" is the Section for counter-intelligence affairs.

17 MR. NEUNER: Can we move into private session, please.

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into private session.

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21 [Open session]

22 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour, we're now in open session.

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Do wait, Madam Vidovic, for the Registrar to say

24 we're in open session before you go on to your next question.

25 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

1 Q. Did you understand my question, Witness? If not, I can rephrase.

2 A. Just to make sure I understand you better, do you mean -- let's

3 clarify this. Do you mean internal clashes? When you talk about clashes,

4 do you mean internal clashes within the BH Army or within Sarajevo?

5 Q. Yes, Witness.

6 A. There were sporadic internal clashes.

7 Q. You personally were involved in certain activities that were meant

8 to deal with these problems; right?

9 A. Yes.

10 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness now please be

11 shown Exhibit 282.

12 Q. As we're waiting for the exhibit to come up, let me ask you this,

13 Witness. You spoke to OTP investigators and you spoke in great detail

14 about various operative actions, including Trebevic, Vranduk, Vasal, and

15 so on and so forth; is that right?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. What you see in front of you is an order of the Supreme Command

18 Staff of the Armed Forces, dated the 25th of October, 1993, and it's about

19 the introduction of Trebevic and Trebevic-2 operations.

20 Can you please look at the introduction to this order. You said

21 you were involved in these Trebevic actions; right?

22 A. Instead of "involved," I would like to use the term "I was part of

23 this." As far as I understand what you're saying, the year you mentioned

24 is 1995, but the document patently shows the year 1993.

25 Q. Witness, thank you for that correction. I do accept this. But

1 you were part of this action. Okay, I accept that.

2 Could you please look at the introduction to this decision, and

3 please comment based on your knowledge, since, as you suggest, you were

4 part of this.

5 A. As for the introduction, there's the header, some sort of a

6 preamble to an order. I can't see who signed the --

7 Q. Witness, we'll get to that. Let me ask you this: You agree that

8 this order was based on a Presidency decision and on a joint order signed

9 by the commander of the Supreme Command Staff of the Armed Forces and the

10 Minister of the Interior; right?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. So you were one of the participants in this event. You will agree

13 that this was a joint activity by the Ministry of the Interior and the

14 Supreme Command Staff of the Army; right?

15 A. Yes, yes.

16 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we just look at the last page of

17 this document, please.

18 Q. Do you recognise the signature?

19 A. Yes, yes, I do, and I think this was signed by General

20 Rasim Delic.

21 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Fine. We can put this document away

22 now.

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Just for my own clarification, Madam Vidovic, the

24 witness -- Witness, you say you were a part of these operations, but I

25 don't see your name on the list of people composing the groups. How were

1 you part of them?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, as far as I can tell,

3 this is a general order from the highest possible level, the state level

4 or, rather, the commander of the BH Army, and I think this order was

5 followed by later orders in writing. Or in my specific case, I received a

6 verbal order, for example, from my superior, my then superior, the chief

7 of the Security Administration, to carry out a particular assignment that

8 was part of this specific activity. If you want me to say what specific

9 assignment, I'll be happy to share that with you.

10 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we're getting to that.

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: It's not necessary to share it. Thank you so much

12 I just wanted to understand that. Thank you.

13 You may proceed, Madam Vidovic.

14 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we put this document away,

15 please, and I want the witness to look at D738 now.

16 Q. Witness, you have in front of you a record -- actually, it's a

17 letter written on the 24th of November, 1993, containing minutes from the

18 meeting of the President's Council for the Protection of the

19 Constitutional Order, dated on 28th of October, 1993.

20 And, Your Honours, if the witness could go straight to page 2 of

21 the document, because it's very important. In the English, page two as

22 well.

23 Witness, what I want to ask you is this: You say you were part of

24 these activities to do with the Trebevic action. Look at this portion

25 just where it says "Agenda," and then further down from these minutes

1 dated the 28th of October, minutes of the Presidency Council for the

2 Protection of the Constitutional Order, held on the 28th of October, 1993:

3 "This is a report on the operation conducted in order to

4 implement the RBiH presidency decision with respect to relieving the

5 commanders of the 10th Mountain Brigade and 9th Mountain [as interpreted]

6 Brigade of their duties."

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Slow down, Madam Vidovic.

8 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Fine. Your Honours, perhaps I'll

9 repeat.

10 So this is -- my colleague is suggesting that it was recorded.

11 Q. So you told us that you were involved in these activities to

12 implement this particular order by the Presidency.

13 Can we please go to page 3 now, and in the English -- Your

14 Honours, could we please go into private session.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into private session.

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24 [Open session]

25 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're now in open session.

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

2 Yes, Madam Vidovic.

3 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] D302. For the record, this is a

4 criminal report by the Security Administration, dated the 21st of

5 November, 1993. It was submitted to the district military prosecutor in

6 Sarajevo. As I said, this is a criminal report.

7 Q. Witness, can you please look at the preamble. You will agree that

8 the criminal report was filed in keeping with the powers enshrined in the

9 decree on district military courts and also in keeping with the Criminal

10 Procedure Code that was adopted as the law of the Republic.

11 You see that the person involved is Senad Hasic. And you know,

12 don't you, that after these events in October 1993, so after these armed

13 clashes, the showdown with those units, there were criminal reports being

14 filed against dozens of perpetrators for all sorts of various crimes,

15 including war crimes; am I right?

16 A. Yes, you're right.

17 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, can we please look at

18 the last page so that the witness can see the signature. In the English

19 as well.

20 Q. You will agree that the criminal report was signed by Chief

21 Jusuf Jasarevic; right? Do you recognise the signature?

22 A. Yes, I recognise the signature, and this is most probably

23 General Jusuf Jasarevic's signature.

24 Q. Look further up, please, the penultimate paragraph. You will

25 agree that those being reported committed crimes against humanity and

1 international law as defined by Article 142 of the Criminal Code of the

2 SFRY; right?

3 A. Yes, I see that.

4 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, can this document

5 please be given an exhibit number.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Before we do that, I'm concerned that the B/C/S of

7 this document has a lot of writing which is missing in the English. I

8 want to understand why. I think it's a very important document, and we

9 need to get all that is said. It's only two pages, but this last page of

10 the B/C/S, for instance, as you can see, has got several paragraphs, and

11 we've got only this one paragraph. And the first page is also -- in the

12 English, we only have the names of the people, and in the B/C/S we have a

13 lot said about each one of them.

14 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we did submit this

15 document for translation, but you know what sort of problems the

16 Translation Unit is dealing with. At any rate, we can tell the

17 Translation Unit that the Chamber has requested a full translation. I

18 always ask for that, but they're simply buried in work, so they do what

19 they can. So I will submit this document for admission, with the proviso

20 that we shall be requesting a full translation.

21 As for the bits that were added in hand, I see that I don't see

22 the same thing in English, and I'm not sure what you mean. Can you please

23 draw my attention to the relevant portions?

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Vidovic, this is page 16 of the English, just

25 this -- I'm sorry. It's just this one paragraph on this page, and this is

1 the page on which the author signed. But you can see that there are other

2 page -- on the B/C/S, it's full, and if you go back to the previous pages,

3 I'll show, too. Just a second --

4 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes.

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: -- I just want to draw your attention to what I'm

6 saying. I just want the full document translated.

7 Can we go to the previous pages of both versions, please.

8 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I understand now, Your Honour. Yes,

9 indeed. I understand. It's the translation problem that we have. I will

10 do it, then.

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, I will ask that you get it translated fully.

12 I understand they may be buried in work. If this -- I don't think this

13 will bury them any deeper. It's a very small document.

14 May -- the document is admitted into evidence. May it please be

15 given an exhibit number.

16 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 960.

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we please show the witness D303.

19 Page 2 of the document in the Bosnian, page 3 in the English.

20 The English is fine; the Bosnian is not. We need page 2, please.

21 Thank you very much.

22 Q. Witness, this is a report on status following investigation in the

23 criminal case against Hasic, Senad.

24 And if we could just lower the document slightly. Thank you.

25 You see that it is signed by the deputy district military

1 prosecutor, Hikmet Arnautovic, but can you please look at the first

2 bullet, because these are activities that were implemented by the Security

3 Administration. There is a report here on 61 persons from the former 9th

4 Motorised Brigade and the former 10th Mountain Brigade against whom

5 charges were pressed before the Military Court in Sarajevo. Could you

6 just please have a look.

7 Let's not waste any more time than necessary. I will quote to you

8 the final part of this paragraph. It talks about the armed rebellion,

9 armed uprising. That's about six lines down. And then it says against

10 Topalovic, Armin Hodzic, Sarmin [phoen], Zija Kubat, [indiscernible]. All

11 these names are given for the crime of war crime against civilians under

12 Article 142, paragraph 1, of the adopted KZ of the SFRY.

13 A. Can I just be shown the relevant portion, please?

14 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please just zoom in on the

15 portion that I read out.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. All right, I

17 can see it now.

18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. Given the type of work that you did, you know that investigations

20 that were conducted within the Military Security Department normally

21 resulted in charges being pressed; right?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. In this case, this included war crimes against civilians; right?

24 A. Yes.

25 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, if this document can

1 be admitted and given an exhibit number, please.

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

3 please be given an exhibit number.

4 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 961.

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

6 Yes, Madam Vidovic.

7 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness please be shown

8 Exhibit 241, please.

9 Q. Witness, until the document is shown on the screen, I would just

10 like to ask you: You know that there was an action named "Trebevic-3"

11 that was carried out, and you also participated in those activities; is

12 that correct?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Can you please look at the document. It's a document of the

15 Security Administration of the 6th of December, 1993, sent to the chiefs

16 of the Military Security Services of all the Corps. It's entitled:

17 "Engagement of the Military Security Service in the implementation of

18 Operation Trebevic-3", and the document seeks reports or requests the

19 reports. Can you please look at the part of this document where it says:

20 "Reference". Do you see that? And you would agree that it refers to the

21 order of the chief of the Security Administration of the 22nd of November,

22 1993; is that correct?

23 A. From the text that I can read, yes, that's how -- that's what it

24 is.

25 Q. Can you please look at the text itself now. It's not long. If

1 you can read it for yourself, please.

2 A. I've read it.

3 Q. The order specifies the tasks of the Corps military security

4 sectors to implement measures from the jurisdiction of the military police

5 and in order to prevent crime and the obstruction of command and control;

6 is that correct?

7 A. Yes, this is what I understand the text to say, yes, that reports

8 are being asked for from the sectors of the Military Security Service that

9 are subordinated to the Corps who have not already done so.

10 Q. I would like to ask you the following: It's correct, isn't it,

11 that the actual engagement of the Military Security Service was something

12 that was done pursuant to orders of its chief?

13 A. From what I know, yes, that was part of his competence.

14 Q. Thank you. The chief of the Military Security Service set out the

15 tasks to the Corps military security services that are part of their

16 purview and also the tasks of the military police; is that correct?

17 A. If you permit me, I would just like to clarify. The main tasks

18 were already laid down in the rules. All the other tasks, individual,

19 specific tasks, were something that were monitored by the chief of the

20 administration.

21 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

22 I would like the witness now to look at Exhibit 658. We can put

23 this document that is up now away.

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: I believe it's under seal, Madam Vidovic.

25 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. Can we please

1 move into private session.

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into private session.

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20 [Open session]

21 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, we're back in open session.

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

23 Yes, you may proceed, Madam Vidovic.

24 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. Witness, this is a document that was shown to you today by the

1 Prosecutor. This is a report or information by the Military Security

2 Service of the 3rd Corps of the 16th of September, 1995. You commented

3 today about some parts of the document. You also looked at the document

4 and commented on it during proofing before beginning your testimony,

5 yesterday and the day before yesterday. And in the report for the

6 preparation for that trial, provided to us by the Prosecutor, you said the

7 following:

8 "As far as prisoners of war are concerned, there was sectors or

9 commissions at corps level that dealt with prisoners of war. That's where

10 it all ended. I do not recall that anything was done at the state level

11 in connection with that. It was the duty of the corps to guard prisoners

12 of war and to ensure contacts with the other side."

13 What you told the Prosecutor during proofing is correct, isn't it?

14 First of all, did you tell the Prosecutor this? Let's clarify that first.

15 A. I would say that, in essence, I did, yes. The bulk of it, yes.

16 But I would just like to clarify. When I said "at the state level," and I

17 think I did explain that, I meant primarily the institutions of the Army

18 of Bosnia and Herzegovina, of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

19 When I mentioned "the state level," that's what I meant, the level of the

20 General Staff or the Supreme Command Staff. And what I can recall of

21 similar segments that dealt with these matters, other than the segment in

22 the Security Administration, there were no such segments.

23 So let me conclude. Prisoners of war -- there were no other

24 segments that dealt with that matter at the level of the General Staff.

25 Q. When we're talking about prisoners of war, from the time that they

1 were captured until they were exchanged, it was all dealt with in lower

2 units, up to corps level; is that correct?

3 A. Yes, including the Corps. Yes, it ended at corps level.

4 Q. When you talked about information received in this instance about

5 prisoners of war through intercepted telefax messages, you said that this

6 information had to be checked. Actually, what you said was this:

7 "The 3rd Corps was supposed to check this information without

8 asking me or needing me to tell them that the information needed to be

9 checked."

10 You also said --

11 MR. NEUNER: I'm sorry to interrupt my learned colleague.

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Neuner.

13 MR. NEUNER: It's just to me it is not exactly clear, all the

14 words which are going in right now, whether they come from the proofing

15 note, whether it refers to this morning's testimony of the witness. We

16 are basically here having a viva voce witness, and now at this point in

17 time we are getting a lot of new evidence in which is not on the table, in

18 the sense that, I mean, either you wish to use the proofing note, put it

19 on ELMO so that the Judges can also see what it is about, or -- I don't

20 think this witness has this morning talked in that great detail about

21 POWs.

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Well, yeah, I thought you understood,

23 Madam Vidovic, and I thought maybe this is something that is between the

24 two teams, because she said, at page 42, line 1 or 2:

25 "And in the report for the preparation for that trial provided to

1 us by the Prosecutor, you said the following."

2 So it looks like there is some report that was undertaken in

3 preparation for a trial and that the Prosecution gave it to the Defence.

4 We don't have -- I don't have it, definitely. I don't know whether

5 Judge Lattanzi has it. Yes, you are right, we are lost, but I thought you

6 were not.

7 MR. NEUNER: I understand, to a certain extent. I'm just saying

8 it would be nice if the witness is asked today in general about the fact

9 POW -- about POWs and so on, and based on what he says today, that

10 questions can be put to him.

11 What is happening since about two, three minutes is that certain

12 portions which were said one, two or three days ago are read to the

13 witness and are just going in as if he would have testified today, which

14 is not the case.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, I heard about that, too.

16 Madam Vidovic, we are indeed lost, at least the Bench is

17 definitely lost. I thought your colleague was not. Now he says he's also

18 lost. Can you help us? What are you reading from?

19 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, possibly it's a

20 question of interpretation. I was very clear when I said that I am

21 talking about the proofing notes that we received from the Prosecutor, and

22 the Prosecutor knows very well what I'm talking about. The problem is --

23 why I am not putting that on the ELMO is that we only received the Bosnian

24 version of this document.

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: And the problem is that the Chamber doesn't have a

1 copy of the proofing notes, and --

2 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I believed, Your Honours, that the

3 Prosecutor gave it to the Trial Chamber at the same time as they handed it

4 over to the Defence. But in principle, I would like to respond to the

5 objection by the Prosecutor. Actually, it's about the following: We

6 receive these proofing notes so that we can, during the testimony of the

7 witness, put questions which are contained in the proofing notes, and

8 possibly the witness did not testify on these matters during the

9 examination-in-chief. That is the essence and the reason why the Defence

10 is furnished with the proofing notes, and this is why I'm a little bit

11 surprised or wonder at this objection from the Prosecutor.

12 MR. NEUNER: If I can just say, there are two proofing notes which

13 have been sent, and you didn't say so far which of the two proofing notes

14 you were quoting from. And my point, again, is that this witness, this

15 morning, hasn't repeated the text which you read out to him. I mean, my

16 suggestion would simply be: Ask him first about the document and the

17 issues you wish to have from the witness, and then, based on his answer,

18 put the questions to him.

19 What you have done, you have just read out a proofing note without

20 telling us which one of the two it is, and then have followed up from

21 there, but maybe this witness, this morning, says something different than

22 he said in proofing.

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Now, Madam Vidovic, since I came to the ICTY, I

24 have never received a proofing note, and I have not received this proofing

25 note. I don't know whether Judge Lattanzi received it. So when a

1 document is being used in court which we don't have and which is

2 ultimately not tendered into evidence, I find it very difficult to follow.

3 MR. NEUNER: If I can just clarify. The proofing notes have not

4 been sent to the Judges, themselves. The practice of the OTP is that

5 Mr. Thomas Pittman and Mr. Tillman Blumenstock are cc'd on the proofing

6 notes which are sent to the other side.

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Not for the side of the Judges.

8 MR. NEUNER: I have done this on one occasion where a late

9 translation came in so that it reaches the Judges, but the practice of the

10 OTP so far is to send it to the legal officers.

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: I understand. I'm not suggesting that the Judges

12 must be given the proofing notes. I'm just stating a fact, that we have

13 never seen proofing notes. And I'm not inclined to agree with documents

14 that are used in court which are not being tendered and which we don't

15 have sight of, because when we write the judgement, we can say somebody

16 was reading something and we don't know what it was he was reading, and we

17 don't know what weight to give to that document.

18 And I hope that Madam Vidovic is listening.

19 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, yes, I'm listening and

20 I understand. Maybe we can deal with the situation by not referring to

21 the proofing notes at all. I mean, it is signed, but to cut everything

22 short, because we're losing a lot of time in this discussion.

23 I'm just going to ask the witness without further reference to the

24 proofing notes.

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Madam Vidovic.

1 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. Witness, what I would like to ask you is the following, please:

3 It's correct, isn't it, that the 3rd Corps should have and it was its

4 assignment to carry out checks about information that referred to

5 prisoners of war?

6 A. That segment, speaking specifically about the 3rd Corps that dealt

7 with prisoners of war, I'm not sure about the exact establishment name of

8 that segment in the 3rd Corps, but it was entrusted with prisoners of war.

9 It was their duty, as part of their general work, to carry out that kind

10 of work together in cooperation with other organs and services of the 3rd

11 Corps Command.

12 Q. Thank you. So without issuing any kind of specific order, the

13 standard procedure was to check information received through listening in

14 or interception, and this information had to be confirmed as well; am I

15 correct?

16 A. If I can give an explanation here.

17 In this specific document, from what I can see, we have actually a

18 document that consists of two parts. The first part is the introduction

19 by the organ of the 3rd Corps Military Security Service. And then

20 additionally, I can see that they're also attaching the information that

21 the Military Security Service acquired by intercepting telephone calls

22 from a certain group or by persons that they considered to be of interest.

23 Information that is received, and I'm speaking in principle now,

24 information that is received in this way by intercepting telephone

25 conversations and listening in and tapping and recording, should have been

1 checked. That was the duty of the Military Security Service. It was not

2 acceptable to use raw data in further external reporting and for further

3 external needs and so on and so forth.

4 Q. When you said it was the duty of the Military Security Service

5 organs in the last sentence, please, which security organ did you have in

6 mind? Can you please clarify that.

7 A. Specifically, the establishment name of that organ was "the

8 Department of the Military Security Service of the 3rd Corps," from what I

9 can remember.

10 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. We can put

11 this document away.

12 I would now like to ask you about a fact that you mentioned this

13 morning.

14 Q. You said that as part of the Counter-Intelligence Affairs

15 Department there was a sector for war crimes, and I just wanted us to

16 clarify that. I would like you to explain to the Trial Chamber exactly

17 what that was. In fact, that sector was established after The Hague

18 Tribunal Prosecutor's visit in September 1994, and after the signing of a

19 contract by the Government of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina with

20 the international prosecutor; is that correct?

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4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can we stop here?

5 Could we move into private session, please.

6 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

7 [Private session]

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13 [Open session]

14 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

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8 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into private session.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Prosecutor, for

10 keeping track of these things.

11 [Private session]

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12 [Open session]

13 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] For the record --

14 THE REGISTRAR: For the record, P02096 is Exhibit 700.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: And we are now in open session, Mr. Registrar?

16 THE REGISTRAR: That's correct, Your Honour, we're now in open

17 session.

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. Exhibit ...

19 THE REGISTRAR: Number 700.

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: 700.

21 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Just for the record, this is a

22 proposal to introduce the Operative Action Vranduk, dated the 13th of May,

23 19 -- Your Honours, it seems that the number is wrong. I may have

24 misspoken, myself. It's P2069, not "96". The transcript says "2096", but

25 it's P02069, which is a different document.

1 For the record: "Proposal for the introduction of the Operative

2 Action Vranduk." The date is the 13th of May, 1995. It was sent to Army

3 General Rasim Delic at the Visoko GLOC.

4 Q. Witness, can you look at the document, please, and let me ask you

5 briefly about the procedure for introducing these operative actions.

6 The procedure was like this, wasn't it: The Military Security

7 Department of the Corps would propose for an operative action to be

8 introduced; right?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And then the Security Administration, based on its powers from the

11 rules governing the work of military security, requests authorisation to

12 use special methods, for example, to tap certain lines, to eavesdrop, and

13 to listen in to various conversations, and this authorisation must be

14 granted by the chief of the Supreme Command Staff; right?

15 A. Yes, because only the commander was authorised or had the power to

16 authorise to the Military Security Service the use of these secret

17 methods.

18 THE INTERPRETER: The microphone is off.

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: The microphone is off, Madam.

20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] My apologies.

21 Q. The powers of the commander, regarding measures, came down to

22 this: Authorising secret methods and means; am I right?

23 A. Yes, secret methods and means that the military security used for

24 their work, introducing an operative action or an operative investigation.

25 Q. Using these sorts of methods and means; right?

1 A. Yes, you're right.

2 Q. It's true, isn't it, that the administration would normally state

3 the reasons for which it believed that it was necessary to introduce such

4 measures or this specific action; right?

5 A. Yes, that's right. I don't mean to waste your time, but I would

6 link up this introduction of this operative action with the documents that

7 I was looking at a while ago, and particularly the document in which I

8 address Nedime in writing. Such information, among other things,

9 indicated that one of the processing degrees should be introduced. For

10 example, I ask the -- or request the army commander that he grant us the

11 use of these secret methods of work so that we might be in a good

12 situation to collect intelligence and to take certain measures.

13 Q. Thank you very much for this explanation, Witness. Can we please

14 move on to this: You see that there are reasons stated here for which

15 this operative action is introduced, and it says the way some Afro-Asian

16 nationals arrived in the country of B and H, and then the way some of them

17 display their religion or the way they practice their religion, and then

18 the way the whole thing is financed, bankrolled, and the entire logistics

19 support.

20 And then if we can please move on to the next page. The English

21 is all right. We need to move the Bosnian. Thank you.

22 Please have a look, Witness. At the beginning of this text, it

23 says:

24 "Apart from the above mentioned as well as a number of other

25 illegal actions and activities taken by some members of the detachment,

1 what is also quite prominent is the issue of evading participation in

2 combat activities."

3 You agree that one of the reasons for introducing this action was

4 allegedly, at least, this problem, the fact that the El Mujahid people

5 were not participating in combat activities; right?

6 A. Yes, I agree.

7 Q. The El Mujahid Detachment were almost trying to weasel their way

8 out of combat activities; right?

9 A. Talking about that particular body of foreigners, I would also

10 like to mention members of Afro-Asian descent. Sorry, what we found of

11 particular interest were persons from that group, those who very often

12 turned up in various humanitarian organisations or worked for various

13 humanitarian organisations and yet they passed themselves off as army

14 members, which left us greatly confused. That much is certain. And we

15 weren't sure what sort of approach to take vis-a-vis those people, in

16 terms of our powers.

17 Q. Thank you for that comprehensive and extensive clarification,

18 Witness. Let's look at the signature, please. What the Security

19 Administration is proposing here, this is something that General Delic

20 approved; right?

21 A. Can I please look at the final portion of the document?

22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Final portion, please, page 3. In

23 the English, it's the next page.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, he approved it, and I know that

25 for a fact, that he did.

1 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

2 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] May this exhibit please be given a

3 number.

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated]

5 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 964.

6 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] We can put this document away now.

7 Thank you.

8 Can we now please have P2072. For the record, this is from the

9 Military Security Service Administration, the 13th of May, 1995. The

10 document is entitled: "Preparation for the implementation of Vranduk

11 operative action," sent to the 3rd and 7th Corps Commands, this

12 assignment, Military Security Department. It's a brief document.

13 Witness, can you please read it to yourself first.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I've read it.

15 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. Can you look at the last paragraph, please. It reads:

17 "Coordinating groups, including members of the SVB and RBH MUP,

18 State Security Service Administration, shall be dispatched to your Corps

19 zone of responsibility so that they can help with planning the

20 implementation of the Vranduk operation."

21 Right?

22 A. Yes, I agree that's what the document says.

23 Q. All right. Do you agree that the Security Administration of the

24 Supreme Command Staff did not stop at a formal order; it continued to

25 pursue specific activities and to send their own teams to help with work

1 in the field; right?

2 A. Yes. You can see, based on this, that there was a continuity to

3 the implementation of the order signed by General Delic.

4 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can this document be given an

5 exhibit number, please.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

7 please be given an exhibit number.

8 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 965.

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

10 Yes, Madam Vidovic.

11 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, maybe we can move into

12 private session now.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into private session.

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15 [Open session]

16 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. Witness, as you see, this is Special Information number 12, the

18 2nd of April, 1993.

19 Can we please look at page 2.

20 It reads:

21 "Information on inappropriate behaviour of Rasim Delic."

22 Can you please look at the portion which says -- it's midway down

23 the large paragraph, the second paragraph. It reads:

24 "Among the fighters and the officers, as well as among the

25 inhabitants of Visoko, Delic lost respect, since he was acting like a

1 conformist, disinterested in combat activity, spending his time very often

2 in bars and hotels and so on and so forth."

3 Can we please go to the bottom of the page.

4 Witness, Fikret Muslimovic, the person who signed this, is this

5 the same person as General Muslimovic, the person you mentioned meeting?

6 A. Yes, and I recognise his signature.

7 Q. Would you agree with this description that was provided here of

8 Rasim Delic as a person? You knew him. You worked there, after all,

9 didn't you?

10 A. In the briefest possible terms, no. If you grant me more time, I

11 could also state my opinion.

12 Q. Thank you, Witness. Can you offer a brief opinion, please? We

13 don't have that much time.

14 A. Those who wanted the best for all the ethnic groups in Bosnia and

15 Herzegovina were people for whom he set an example, and he set the

16 guidelines in his public appearances for future development for Bosnia and

17 Herzegovina.

18 I know at least three persons who, because of his views and

19 positions, although they belonged to different ethnic groups, were not

20 Muslims, decided to remain in the Military Security Administration,

21 because he was a subtle person, because his methods were subtle, and this

22 was very much in demand in the sector of the General Staff. I'm talking

23 about the views of General Rasim Delic, obviously.

24 Q. Thank you very much, Witness.

25 Let me ask you something else in relation to Fikret Muslimovic.

1 After he left the Military Security Service in 1994, he became an adviser

2 to President Izetbegovic; am I right?

3 A. As far as I know, after he left the Military Security Service he

4 became an adviser to President Izetbegovic, yes, that's right.

5 Q. And then after that, in 1995, the Presidency appointed him as head

6 of the Morale Administration; right?

7 A. Yes, I think it was roughly around that time.

8 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could we please put

9 this document away now.

10 Exhibit 666, under seal, please.

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: In private session? Do you want to go in private

12 session, Madam Vidovic?

13 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Indeed, Your Honour.

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into private session.

15 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

16 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] My apologies, Your Honours. That's

17 what I have, but all right.

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm told it's under seal, Madam Vidovic, so we

19 don't need to go into private session?

20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] No need. All right.

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: For the record, the Chamber is in open session.

22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour, and my

23 apologies.

24 Q. Witness, briefly, this is a document, report produced by the

25 Military Security Service Administration, dated the 21st of June, 1995, or

1 the Security Service Department. What I want to know is, do you recognise

2 this handwriting here?

3 A. Which one do you mean?

4 Q. My apologies. Witness, allow me to explain. I'm talking about

5 the upper right corner here of this document. You see that there's a

6 handwritten note there; right?

7 A. Where it says "01"?

8 Q. Indeed.

9 A. I do recognise it.

10 Q. What it says right there: "Keep in mind that information to do

11 with this unit should not be used outside the service," that's what the

12 note says, is the handwriting familiar?

13 A. Yes, it's quite familiar.

14 Q. So whose is it?

15 A. Sacir Arnautovic, I suppose. I suppose.

16 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Witness. Sacir

17 Arnautovic, Sacir Arnautovic?

18 Can we just see the date, please. The 21st of June, 1995.

19 Q. What exactly was Sacir Arnautovic doing at the time?

20 A. I think he was deputy head of the Security Administration at the

21 time.

22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we please put this document

23 away.

24 Exhibit 784 is my next document.

25 Q. Witness, this is a document of the 3rd Corps Security Service

1 Department. The date is the 22nd of June, 1995.

2 Could this document please be displayed in such a way that the

3 witness can look at the handwritten note.

4 A. I see it.

5 Q. Can you please tell us whose handwriting this appears to be? Is

6 that the same handwriting as before?

7 (redacted) It's the same

8 handwriting, and I think this is Sacir Arnautovic's handwriting.

9 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. We can put

10 this document away too.

11 Just another document that I've been meaning to show the witness,

12 PT2971B. Page 7, please, in the B/C/S, and page 2 in the English.

13 For the record, this is a protocol of the General Staff of the BH

14 Army, Security Administration, between the 1st of October, 1995, and the

15 31st of December, 1995.

16 Q. Witness, please look at these tables. That's right. Do you agree

17 that at the top of the page -- or, rather, can we just focus on the

18 document in such a way as to enlarge the part of the page where we can

19 actually see what the columns are in reference to. Thank you.

20 A little more, please. Thank you.

21 The first column, it says: "Original number," and then

22 "Transfer," and then it says: "Subject".

23 A. I agree.

24 Q. So, Witness, you agree that this is a book where incoming mail was

25 recorded and filed under a certain number?

1 A. Yes, this was supposed to be the register that was kept by people

2 in charge of general affairs, but I can't really tell you how many times

3 I've seen it.

4 Q. All right. There's one thing that I wish to ask you. Look at

5 these cells up here. It says: "Centre" and so on.

6 A. I see.

7 Q. All right. I'm trying to ask you this: You see exactly who sent

8 a certain document to the Security Administration; right?

9 A. Yes, it's perfectly visible, based on what I'm looking at, it's

10 clear as day.

11 Q. Could you perhaps help us with this? It says: "Organisational

12 Unit"?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And then it says: "Sign" or "Distribute"?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. That means that the document was then distributed and sent to

17 another address, sent on; is that what it means?

18 A. Yes, that was the understanding, and as far as I can tell, based

19 on what I can read underneath this --

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can I take us slowly through? We are lost,

21 Madam Vidovic. I'm not quite sure what you are talking about. All right?

22 Now, how does one, by looking at those columns, determine -- that

23 means that the document was then distributed and sent to another address?

24 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, how shall I put it?

25 It's the second table in the English. The last column is "Distribution

1 on." Do you see that? Oh, that one, yes.

2 Can we just look at something specific to clarify this. In the

3 Bosnian, from table 3, from the top of the page down. That's table 2 on

4 our screens now in the English.

5 Q. Witness, it says: "Results of interviews, Gojic, Mile, and

6 Banjac, Nebojsa." You see that; right?

7 A. No, I don't. Could you please zoom in a little?

8 Q. Yeah, yeah, that's right, like that, like that. Can you see it

9 now?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. That's good.

12 A. This is the third horizontal line; right?

13 Q. Yes. You've seen that?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. So you agree that the document has a number, and then it reads

16 "Sender," name and place, and then over there, if we could please scroll

17 to the right -- I don't have that much time -- where it says "Distributed

18 to," we can see that on the 16th of October this document was sent to the

19 MUP and to the SDB, State Security Service; right?

20 A. Yes, I can see that. There are two references to that, as a

21 matter of fact.

22 Q. All right. Based on this register or the book of protocols, we

23 can always ascertain whether a document was received by the Military

24 Security Administration in Sarajevo; right?

25 A. Yes, that's what these books were used for. I fully agree.

1 Q. All right. We can also plot the movements of a particular

2 document and which part of the Security Administration was processing a

3 certain document; right?

4 A. Yes. If you look at the numbers, you should be able to see that.

5 Q. And you can see the final destiny of a certain document, where it

6 was eventually processed, where it went for final processing, in the last

7 column; right?

8 A. Yes, where it says "Sign" or "Mark," column 9, yes, that's right.

9 Q. Because right above, it says "Distributed to," so we can see a

10 list of addressees there and we see who the document was sent to?

11 A. Yes, that's exactly on the money.

12 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, thank you. I have no

13 further questions for this witness, and I would like a number for this

14 document, please.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

16 please be given an exhibit number.

17 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 968.

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

19 Mr. Neuner, re-examination?

20 MR. NEUNER: The Prosecution has no further questions,

21 Your Honour.

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

23 Judge.

24 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] I have no questions.

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Judge.

1 Just one question, sir.

2 Questioned by the Court:

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: At page 49, line 5, I interrupted you when you were

4 answering your question. I would like you to finish that sentence. You

5 were saying --

6 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Can we move into private session.

8 [Private session]

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8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 [Open session]

25 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're now in open session.

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

2 Sir, that brings us to the conclusion of your testimony. Let me

3 take this time to say thank you very much to you for coming to testify at

4 the Tribunal.

5 You are now excused, you may stand down, and please travel well

6 back home.

7 Thank you very much.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, if I may briefly

9 address you to thank you, and I do sincerely hope that you found my

10 evidence helpful.

11 All of this is for the sake of finding out the truth about what

12 happened in my country.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, sir. I almost called your

14 name, sorry. But just wait there until the blinds are down. Don't move

15 yet.

16 Thank you very much.

17 [The witness withdrew]

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: The matter then stands adjourned to tomorrow at

19 quarter past 2.00 in the afternoon in Courtroom III.

20 Court adjourned.

21 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.47 p.m.,

22 to be reconvened on Friday, the 7th day of

23 December, 2007, at 2.15 p.m.

24

25