090217IT

Page 1146

1 Tuesday, 17 February 2009

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.08 a.m.

5 JUDGE PARKER: Good morning. Good morning, in particular, to

6 those who have been so generous with their time as to be available at

7 this very short notice to enable us to sit this morning.

8 The witness is being brought in, I believe.

9 [The witness entered court]

10 WITNESS: LUTFI RAMADANI [Resumed]

11 [Witness answered through interpreter]

12 JUDGE PARKER: Good morning, Mr. Ramadani.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

14 JUDGE PARKER: I will remind you of the affirmation you made to

15 tell the truth at the beginning of your evidence, which still applies.

16 Now, Mr. Djordjevic, your cross-examination is continuing.

17 MR. DJORDJEVIC: Thank you, Your Honours.

18 Cross-examination by Mr. Djordjevic: [Continued]

19 Q. [Interpretation] As I promised during my cross-examination in

20 relation to the bulldozers, I have to provide a reference, first and

21 foremost. We're dealing with the Milutinovic case, and could it please

22 be called up. P306, page 29. In the transcript it is marked as 4311.

23 Thank you.

24 Mr. Ramadani, please look at lines 4, 5, and 6 of this

25 transcript. In all fairness, it's in English. It's the transcript in

Page 1147

1 English, but the point of that section is that you said:

2 "We found some burned shoes and some sleeves, some pieces of

3 clothes, nothing else, because ..." and then you said: "... bulldozers

4 had been working before." And before that, you said those that had been

5 digging.

6 I wish to remind you of that detail because we have never heard

7 that before or after. Who told you about these bulldozers? I mean, if

8 you actually did refer to bulldozers, because yesterday you said that you

9 did not mention bulldozers at all.

10 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Djordjevic, what you said yesterday suggested

11 to me and I believe the witness -- that the witness had spoken in his

12 evidence in this court of bulldozers, which was not -- it's still my

13 recollection that he didn't mention bulldozers in this court. What you

14 are now doing is putting to him what he said in a previous trial. Just

15 understand that there has been a significant movement of ground by you on

16 that matter.

17 MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, Judge, perhaps it

18 was understood in a different way, but the point was that the witness did

19 not mention bulldozers yesterday at all, and I had asked about

20 bulldozers. Yesterday the witness said, "I never mentioned bulldozers."

21 That's what the transcript says. That is the reply to my question. And

22 I said that later on I would go back to that when I find the actual

23 reference. My reference is from the Milutinovic case. I have referred

24 to the proper transcript page and line, et cetera. So that was my

25 intention yesterday, too, but perhaps I've been misunderstood.

Page 1148

1 JUDGE PARKER: The position which I put to you is my

2 understanding of it, that yesterday what you said was in the context of

3 what had been said in court in this trial.

4 Now, I take it that you accept that there was no mention in the

5 course of the evidence of this trial by the witness of bulldozers, and

6 that's all that his comment to you was about. Yes.

7 MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] I asked him the following: You

8 mentioned bulldozers earlier on, and the witness said, "No." And I said,

9 "Well, I'll find the reference," but I couldn't find it yesterday. So my

10 question was whether it was these machines that were out there, and the

11 witness said I never mentioned any bulldozers. That is what the

12 transcript says, I mean yesterday's transcript in relation to

13 Mr. Ramadani's testimony.

14 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Djordjevic, could I suggest you stop debating

15 the issue. What is clear is that what was understood by your question

16 yesterday is that the witness had mentioned bulldozers in this courtroom

17 yesterday. He hadn't. Now, he may -- there well may be some issue about

18 bulldozers you want to follow up from a previous trial. Please, if you

19 want to do that, okay, and no need to keep talking about it. Just move

20 on to deal with the question.

21 MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] Precisely, Your Honour. I do

22 apologise. I may have misspoken, and perhaps I explained it the wrong

23 way.

24 Q. Mr. Ramadani, as you can see in this case, the Milutinovic case,

25 during your testimony you referred to bulldozers. Could you give us your

Page 1149

1 brief comment with regard to this particular section, this quote from the

2 transcript from that case. Could you just tell us what you know about

3 that. Thank you.

4 A. The traces of bulldozers or lorries were there. I didn't mention

5 the bulldozer as such because those concrete blocks, to be removed from

6 the site, they require machinery. They cannot be removed just by hands.

7 There you have two -- two craters. We found two craters after the war.

8 So how they removed all that, that I don't know, but I suggest that they

9 required bulldozers.

10 Q. Thank you, Mr. Ramadani. This is much clearer now.

11 In relation to what you stated yesterday, I will have to ask you

12 to explain why is it that until yesterday you had never mentioned the

13 fact that you had found some bodies, as well, and that they had been

14 identified and that those who wanted to find these bodies - it was

15 probably their family members - they found them on the banks of the Drim

16 River. Why did you refer to that only yesterday? And I think that this

17 is an important fact. You never mentioned this identification, not in

18 the Milosevic case. I do apologise. I'd just like to give you a

19 reference. For example, it is D001, page 18. So could that please be

20 displayed on the screens. It is part of the Milosevic transcript.

21 D001-4430, page 18.

22 You say there:

23 "I don't know what happened to their bodies. The only thing we

24 found were clothes and shoes ..." and so on and so forth. It is line 21,

25 all the way up to the end of that page. You did not refer to the Drim

Page 1150

1 River at all, all of these things that you spoke of yesterday. What's

2 the reason for that?

3 A. I did mention the Drini River. However, these remains were

4 identified in 2007, I believe, and after that they were reburied.

5 Q. Correct me, Mr. Ramadani, if I'm wrong, but it was my

6 understanding that these remains were found in 1999, on the basis of what

7 you said yesterday, and that they were transferred to Pristina, that some

8 experts did that there. It wasn't my understanding that it was only now.

9 A. They were taken to the Rahovec morgue first and then to the

10 Prishtina morgue, and they were returned to us in 2007, some of the

11 remains.

12 Q. My last question in relation to all of these things that you've

13 said with regard to the crime scene where all these victims had lost

14 their lives and all of this in specific terms is the following: Was an

15 official list of compiled by the official authorities that were then

16 established in Kosovo? I am referring to UNMIK and the others. In

17 relation to this crime, I mean. That's what I'm referring to. Is there

18 an official list of the fatalities with specific details, including their

19 personal identification numbers and everything else?

20 Now, yesterday the list of persons who had lost their lives that

21 you compiled and Mr. Avdyli, who hails from the same village as you do,

22 and -- Mr. Krasniqi, rather, do you know that after that some new list

23 was made, a complete one, of the persons who had lost their lives in Mala

24 Krusa on the 26th of March, 1999?

25 A. We made the list, and some got the list. I wasn't there when

Page 1151

1 they got the list, so I don't know which authorities got the list. When

2 I compiled the list I gave it to the investigators, but as for other

3 authorities from UNMIK, that I don't know. I don't know who from UNMIK

4 got the list. I didn't ask for their names.

5 Q. Thank you, Mr. Ramadani. I'm going to move on to my next

6 question now.

7 Several times you made statements, and you testified in the

8 Milutinovic case, in the Milosevic case, and you spoke about that in your

9 statements that you gave to the investigators of this Tribunal. It has

10 to do with an agreement that was allegedly reached between the Serbs and

11 the Albanians. You refer to three surnames there, three persons, and on

12 your -- from the Serb side, that is, and on your side you mention the

13 late Mr. Ismail Arifi. However, you gave different testimony with regard

14 to that agreement. In relation to this, I'm going to put two questions

15 to you.

16 First question: Do you know whether this agreement was concluded

17 at all?

18 A. I wasn't personally present, and I mentioned it yesterday that

19 even if an agreement was reached, the Serb side did not abide by it.

20 They killed; they shelled; they burned. So I wasn't there to witness any

21 agreement. But even if this agreement was reached, it was not respected

22 by the Serbs. The Serbs didn't see any threat from the Albanians.

23 Q. Thank you, sir. Mr. Arifi [sic], now I'm going to ask the usher

24 to show all of us here in the courtroom on our monitors something from

25 the Milosevic case: D001-4430, page 12.

Page 1152

1 Fine. Mr. Ramadani, first of all, I would like to show you lines

2 9, 10, and 11 on this page. This is the answer that you provide to the

3 question that was put to you by the accused, and you say: "They did make

4 an agreement ..." if they made it. That's what you say here. You're

5 speaking in the conditional. "I wasn't present." That's what you said

6 today too. However, do you know from anyone that this agreement had

7 indeed been reached because here you say they did make an agreement, or

8 are you assuming all the time when you're speaking about this agreement

9 that it was reached? Do you really know from someone that such an

10 agreement was concluded or not? Could you just give me a brief answer?

11 A. This is just hearsay. As I said, I wasn't present physically

12 during that agreement, and I don't know if that agreement was reached and

13 under which terms. If an agreement was reached, it wasn't abided by by

14 the Serbs.

15 Q. My understanding is that you explained then that the Serbs

16 committed themselves then that they would protect the Albanians from the

17 Serb forces or anybody else in case there is a conflict, and when you

18 said that Serbs did not honour this agreement, they were burning and

19 torching, et cetera. However, there's another part of your agreement.

20 You said that the other part of this agreement that had been concluded

21 was that the Albanians would protect the Serbs from the KLA. Why did you

22 say that then, and what was it that you meant when you said that? That's

23 the question that was put to you, and that was the testimony that you

24 gave.

25 A. That is not true. What I'm saying now is what I said then. I

Page 1153

1 didn't say anything else. I just said that I wasn't present during that

2 agreement if there was an agreement. And I already told you that even if

3 an agreement was reached, the Serbs didn't respect it. I'm not aware of

4 saying what you're putting to me.

5 Q. Mr. Ramadani, my question was how is it that you then claimed

6 that they had reached an agreement, and how come you're saying today that

7 the Serbs did not honour the agreement? And there probably wasn't an

8 agreement or you don't know about it, but if that is the case, then

9 please tell us "I don't know," et cetera. But it doesn't seem to be

10 logical. If you have another comment, I mean, I'm not going to pursue

11 this line of questioning because obviously I am unable to get an answer

12 to the question that I keep putting.

13 MS. NILSEN: Your Honours, I'm sorry to interrupt.

14 JUDGE PARKER: Ms. Nilsen.

15 MS. NILSEN: The Defence lawyer is apparently referring to the

16 statement given by the witness, the 18th and the 20th of July, 1999,

17 where he is talking about this allegedly agreement which the witness also

18 said today is a hearsay evidence. He was told about this.

19 On page -- page 3, my learned colleague, if you can look at that.

20 There is not a referring to an agreement where the Albanians would

21 protect the Serbs against the KLA. The correct sentence is that they

22 would protect the Serbs from the UCK. Thank you.

23 MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] My learned friend, I have to

24 remind you that the UCK is the same thing as the OVK or the KLA. It's

25 one and the same thing. You probably didn't hear what I was saying. So

Page 1154

1 the UCK is the same thing as the OVK and the KLA. So the witness says

2 that the Albanians would protect the Serbs from the KLA, the UCK, the

3 OVK. It's one and the same thing. The Milosevic testimony refers to

4 precisely that part of the witness's testimony, and he said that he was

5 not present, and I am not asking the witness about that. I'm just asking

6 the witness -- he did say that it was hearsay evidence, yes. Now, who he

7 learned that from, you will agree that that is a bit more detail for a

8 person who says maybe he was there, maybe he wasn't. Obviously the

9 witness knew that there was an agreement, but I want him to tell me who

10 he heard this from, and he says that the Serbs did not honour it. He did

11 not say what was it that they did not honour. What he doesn't know

12 about, that is what they did not honour? If he doesn't know, we can move

13 on.

14 Q. I mean, I cannot force you to be -- to speak about something that

15 you either don't know or do not wish to speak about, but, of course, I

16 don't want to infer anything on the basis of all of this. It is for

17 others to do that.

18 But my question was just if you could explain this. Why did you

19 mention the KLA, and why did you mention that there was this kind of an

20 agreement? Nothing else. Please just don't repeat everything that

21 you've already said when I do know actually that you were not present.

22 Yes.

23 A. I didn't say that an agreement was reached. I wasn't physically

24 present. I didn't know that an agreement existed. However, even if we

25 suggest that there was an agreement, I am telling you that they did not

Page 1155

1 respect that agreement. This is my belief. As I said, I wasn't there

2 and I cannot confirm whether there was or there wasn't an agreement made.

3 This is all hearsay words.

4 JUDGE PARKER: In the Milosevic trial, Mr. Ramadani, it would

5 appear that you said you had been told by Ismail Arifi that there had

6 been an agreement. Is that a correct understanding of the position?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I wasn't present there when this

8 agreement was made, if it was made. This is all that I heard from other

9 people. To what extent it is true, that I don't know. That's why I said

10 in the past that I only heard about an agreement. However, even if there

11 was an agreement, it wasn't respected by the Serb side.

12 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you for that, but is it correct that you

13 heard that there was an agreement made between the Serbs and the Albanian

14 villagers?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As I said, I heard rumours. That's

16 not a direct information that I got. I just heard people mentioning an

17 agreement, but personally I was not aware of any.

18 JUDGE PARKER: Is Ismail Arifi one of the people from whom you

19 heard these rumours?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] These were rumours that I heard

21 when people were speaking between themselves, not from Ismail Arifi

22 directly. This was a conversation going on while we were near the creek.

23 JUDGE PARKER: Did these rumours indicate that the agreement was

24 that the Serbs would protect the Albanian population and that the

25 Albanians would protect the Serbs from the UCK?

Page 1156

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know how it was possible

2 for them to protect the Serbs from the KLA when there was no KLA presence

3 there. The Serbs on the other side, they were all mobilised. They were

4 dressed in uniforms. They had weapons, and they had the upper hand. As

5 I said, I was not personally involved in these matters. It's just that I

6 overheard these conversations. I did not hear this information directly

7 from Ismail Arifi. It's just hearsay, as I said.

8 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. And that hearsay, I wonder whether you

9 could tell me whether it indicated that the agreement, firstly, was for

10 the Serbs to protect the Albanian villagers.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Some were saying this, and some

12 others were saying other things. Personally, I didn't take any interest

13 in these conversations. We were threatened by the Serbs at the time. So

14 for me personally, they didn't play a great role, these conversations.

15 This is just what people were talking between themselves there.

16 JUDGE PARKER: Right. Well, I understand you to say that you did

17 hear from some people that there was an agreement that the Serbs would

18 protect the Albanian population; is that correct?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Correct. This is what they were

20 talking about.

21 JUDGE PARKER: Right.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] But the Serbs did not respect their

23 word, their promise, and it all fell apart.

24 JUDGE PARKER: Did you also hear from some people that the

25 agreement also provided that Albanians would protect the Serbs from the

Page 1157

1 UCK?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As I said earlier, there is no

3 ground for such a promise because there was no KLA presence in my

4 village. So that's why I don't know why they would promise such a thing,

5 to protect the Serbs from the KLA.

6 We were a mixed village in terms of ethnicity, so there was no

7 chance that there would be a KLA presence in our village, and that's why

8 I don't see any ground for such a promise. These were all rumours.

9 JUDGE PARKER: I think we can understand very well what you say,

10 that you couldn't understand why there would be such any -- any such

11 agreement, but what I'm asking you is whether you heard that there was an

12 agreement which included a provision that the -- that the Albanian people

13 would protect the Serbs from the UCK. Did you hear it being suggested

14 that there was such an agreement?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As I said, I overheard this

16 conversation not directly from Ismail Arifi. Now, I don't even know who

17 was involved in that conversation, but they were talking about these

18 things. Directly, I didn't get any information from anyone about this.

19 JUDGE PARKER: I understand your answer there to be yes, you

20 heard that being said; is that correct?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All right. We'll leave it that

22 way, then.

23 JUDGE PARKER: It's a matter of trying to understand,

24 Mr. Ramadani, what it was that you heard at the time. Now, that doesn't

25 mean if you heard it that it's correct, but it's only the question

Page 1158

1 whether you heard it, and it seems that you may have heard from someone

2 or some people at the time.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As I said, I overheard these type

4 of conversations but not directly from Ismail Arifi or others that you

5 mention. This is just talks that I overheard from others who were

6 discussing what was going on, what was happening. Personally, I was

7 concerned about the safety of myself and my family, the shelling had

8 already started, and so on and so forth.

9 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much.

10 Yes, Mr. Djordjevic.

11 MR. DJORDJEVIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

12 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Krasniqi [sic], how far is Prizren from your

13 village?

14 A. Fifteen kilometres.

15 Q. I'm waiting for the interpretation. Mr. Krasniqi [sic], how far

16 is Orahovac from your village?

17 A. About 12 kilometres, I would say.

18 Q. Mr. Ramadani, how far is Djakovica from your village?

19 A. I don't see these questions reasonable. It is more important to

20 treat the issue of women left without men, without children, and houses

21 left without --

22 Q. Mr. Krasniqi [sic], please, I have to interrupt you.

23 A. I'm Mr. Ramadani.

24 Q. Please don't comment, because I need you to just answer my

25 question. How far is Djakovica from your village? That's the question

Page 1159

1 that I asked you.

2 A. I did not measures the distance but approximately 30 kilometres.

3 Q. Mr. Ramadani, did you hear of an organisation called the UCK,

4 OVK, or KLA at that time in Kosovo before March 1999? Did you have any

5 knowledge of it or not?

6 A. I didn't take any interest in these issues whether there was KLA

7 or not. I was a farmer, and I -- my main interest was to provide for my

8 family. I was not interested in the KLA.

9 Q. Mr. Ramadani, you will agree with me that you lived in that area,

10 that you lived side by side with those people, with people of your ethnic

11 community, with Roma, with Serbs, and of course you were concerned for

12 your own safety, and you wanted to know what was going on outside of your

13 village. There was TV. There were media, the press, Serbian, Albanian.

14 At any rate, there was the inflow of information. And now I'm asking

15 you, did you hear about the abductions of Serbs before March 1999? Did

16 you hear about the murders and the bodies that were found in Kosovo? And

17 even if it is Serb propaganda, I'm not saying that it is, that the Serb

18 propaganda claimed that this was going on. But I cannot agree with you

19 that you didn't hear about it and that you were not interested in it.

20 You're saying about the Serb forces going there. Well, you're a farmer.

21 You shouldn't be interested in that. Now I'm asking you. I want you to

22 tell me whether you knew as an Albanian that the KLA existed. As a

23 patriot, as a member of the Albanian ethnic community, were you aware of

24 it? If you tell me you were not aware I will be quite happy, and I will

25 agree with you.

Page 1160

1 A. There was no KLA presence in our area. It existed, if it

2 existed, in the Drenica area.

3 Q. So there was some at the time. You said it was around Drenica.

4 Did you hear about any fighting around Djakovica between the KLA and the

5 Serb forces and also fighting between the Serb forces and the KLA around

6 Prizren?

7 A. I did not hear about these fightings. I've seen tanks and APCs

8 moving along the main road. I haven't seen any combat activities, so I

9 cannot help you with that.

10 Q. You cannot. Mr. Ramadani, you've already mentioned tanks so many

11 times. Yesterday I wanted to hear about the shelling, and I asked you

12 some questions about that.

13 MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] Now I would like to ask the

14 usher to bring up to our screens the English and the Albanian versions of

15 the statement this witness gave on the 5th of October, 2001. That's

16 D001-4382 for the English version and D001-4392 for the Albanian version.

17 If we could please have that.

18 Well, yes, I have been warned that this has been admitted into

19 evidence as D29. So could we please have that. Could we please look at

20 page 3. The English version too. Thank you.

21 Q. Mr. Ramadani, in your statement, this is paragraph -- I'll look

22 in the B/C/S and it's probably similar, both in English and Albanian.

23 Perhaps it's one or two paragraphs up or down. In B/C/S, it's paragraph

24 8, and it begins with the following words:

25 "I have been asked how many VJ vehicles were on the asphalt road

Page 1161

1 outside Kruse e Vogel ..."

2 And then it goes on.

3 "There was a line" -- "They were lined up along the

4 Djakovica-Prizren road -- the asphalt road. They were first deployed

5 there on the 25th of March, 1999, at 4.00 a.m. I saw 30 to 40 vehicles

6 parked on the road. The vehicles I saw were a mixture between an APC and

7 Pragas. They were not camouflage. The APCs were normal blue MUP colour,

8 and the Pragas were the normal green colour such as the VJ had. The

9 Pragas were armed with machine-guns and cannon. Pragas can have

10 different types of weapons. The Pragas were manned by the VJ troops.

11 "I don't know who was manning the APCs, but I presume that it

12 was MUP."

13 And then you say:

14 "I have been asked if I am aware of any T-55 tanks being

15 stationed in the area of Kruse e Vogel at this time. I have been asked

16 if I saw any rockets on any of those vehicles ..." and your answer was,

17 "No."

18 "I have been asked if any of these weapons were used in the

19 attack." Well, I'm not going to go on. I asked you yesterday about

20 that, and today I'm asking you -- well, I'm not asking you to describe

21 what a T-55 tank looks like, but let me ask you this: Did you do your

22 national service in the army?

23 A. Yes. I was in the navy.

24 Q. So you did your national service in the former Socialist

25 Federative Republic of Yugoslavia, I presume.

Page 1162

1 A. Yes. I was in the navy. I completed my military service in

2 1966.

3 Q. You will agree with me that the army that existed at that time in

4 the Socialist Federative Republic of Yugoslavia was among the best

5 equipped and strongest armies in the region?

6 A. I don't know whether it was the most sophisticated army or not.

7 The officers knew that. We were ordinary soldiers, and it was not our

8 business to know which armies were modern and which were not. Those who

9 were trained and schooled in this, they knew it. We were just ordinary

10 soldiers, as I said.

11 Q. While you did your national service, were you promoted to any

12 rank, Mr. Lutfi?

13 A. No, I didn't.

14 Q. I presume that you did the regular military service while you

15 were in the navy -- or, rather, regular training while you served there.

16 Let me correct myself.

17 A. Yes, in Pula.

18 Q. And in line with this, my next question is going to be: Can you

19 tell us, what is a tank? You keep talking about tanks, tanks, tanks.

20 When you say "tank," what do you mean by that when you say "tank,"

21 Mr. Ramadani?

22 A. A tank has a long barrel. It can have steel tracks. There are

23 also tanks on wheels to protect the asphalt, but there are also tanks on

24 steel tracks. I don't know every specific group of tanks, but I know

25 that they have long barrels, and those who man the tanks have their

Page 1163

1 special equipment, military equipment. This is what I know about tanks,

2 nothing else. Those who have completed military academies may have

3 better knowledge about this. Personally, I wasn't trained for this.

4 Q. You say that they have long barrels. Are you referring to cannon

5 or what?

6 A. Yes. Yes. I was referring to cannons, to the long barrels.

7 Q. And those tanks that you're telling us about, are those tracked

8 tanks or wheeled tanks?

9 A. No. These ones were on tracks, with tracks, the ones that I saw.

10 I don't know what their exact name is.

11 Q. That's what I assumed, Mr. Ramadani. But at any rate, you have a

12 very generalised notion of what a tank is, and I have, too, because I'm

13 not very familiar with military skills. So, Mr. Ramadani, could you

14 please tell us, it is quite obvious that at that time in 2001 when you

15 gave this statement, you knew what a tank was in principle. It is true

16 that here you were asked about T-55, and you said that there weren't any

17 tanks. Why did you say that at the time, and now you're saying something

18 completely different? You said that there were Pragas and APCs. That's

19 what you say in your 2001 statement. That's almost eight years ago.

20 A. I don't have the statements with me. There were tanks. There

21 were anti-aircraft equipment, cannons, everything. I don't have the

22 statement with me, and you can see there what I've said. Only if a

23 mistake was made, then that's a different story.

24 JUDGE PARKER: Perhaps I could help, Mr. Ramadani. The statement

25 which is being referred to by Mr. Djordjevic includes a question -- or a

Page 1164

1 passage which reads:

2 "I have been asked if I am aware of any T- 55 tanks being

3 stationed in the area of Krusha e Vogel at this time." And the answer

4 you gave was no, and I think that's this passage which Mr. Djordjevic is

5 putting to you. Were you aware of any T-55 tanks being stationed in the

6 area the village? And your answer was no as it's recorded in this

7 statement.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's correct. In the village

9 itself, there was no tank. The tanks were camouflaged, and they were

10 positioned almost near Krusha e Madhe. There were APCs and Pragas along

11 the main road. There were tanks, as well, but they were further from our

12 village, almost next to Krusha e Madhe. My house is in the outskirts of

13 the village, and you can see it very well, that part, from my house.

14 MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. Mr. Ramadani, you said that you in fact don't know what a T-55

16 is. You know what a tank is, but you don't know what a T-55 is. Can I

17 then agree with you that in your statement of the 5th October that we

18 have in front of us on the screen, when you said that there were no

19 tanks, T--55 tanks there, that what you actually meant was that there

20 were no tanks at all, or can we not agree?

21 A. What I wanted to say and what I meant by that was that there were

22 no tanks in the village of Krusa e Vogel itself, inside the village.

23 Q. It is clear from your testimony the tanks could only be on the

24 road, the asphalt road, because you keep insisting that the army did not

25 take part at all. You will agree with me then?

Page 1165

1 A. The army did take part, but it was positioned around the village,

2 on the sides. The police were inside the village. The military, the

3 army, was positioned by the main road, Prishtina -- correction,

4 Prizren-Gjakove, not in the village itself. There were only policemen in

5 the village.

6 Q. That's clear from your evidence, Mr. Ramadani, but when you speak

7 about tanks, tanks were used by the Yugoslav army, and as you say, it was

8 not in the village; it was outside of the village. So it is not

9 controversial that the tanks and all the other military equipment could

10 be seen outside of the village on the asphalt road between Djakovica and

11 Prizren. It was only to be expected. But when you said that there were

12 no tanks, they did not ask you whether there were any tanks in the

13 village. They -- you say that they were there where you could expect

14 them to be, on the road, 30 to 40 vehicles on the asphalt road outside of

15 the village. You said that you didn't see any tanks there. Why do you

16 say that then? It is uncontroversial that there were no tanks in the

17 village. That's what you're saying, yes, but there where you saw those

18 vehicles, the VJ vehicles, 30 to 40 of them, you say that there were no

19 tanks there. Why did you say that at the time and now you say something

20 different? Please could you tell me that, and then I will have no

21 further questions.

22 A. The main road, Prizren-Gjakove, there the military were

23 positioned with their tanks and anti-aircraft equipment and so on and so

24 forth. They were not in the village itself. I've always said that there

25 was no military presence in the village; only the police was there.

Page 1166

1 Q. Why did you say that there were Pragas and APCs, and then when

2 you were asked about a tank specifically, about T-55 tanks, you say there

3 weren't any, and now you're saying there were?

4 A. I will state again that they were outside the village, not inside

5 the village. There was no army presence in the village, and there were

6 no tanks in the village. Only the police were present in the village.

7 Q. I'm asking you, when the investigator asked you a direct question

8 whether there was a T-55 tank, you say no. Of course we're not talking

9 about tanks in the village. Could you please explain that if you can?

10 Please don't --

11 MS. NILSEN: Objection, Your Honours. The situation is not that

12 the investigator asked this question. I would like to draw the attention

13 to the Milutinovic statement -- or, sorry, the Milutinovic transcript,

14 page number 63. It's already given a P number, P003 --

15 JUDGE PARKER: The witness is being asked at the moment about

16 this statement --

17 MS. NILSEN: Yes, I'm aware of that.

18 JUDGE PARKER: -- in October. I don't think it would be helpful

19 for you to suggest something that may have been said in another trial

20 about this.

21 MS. NILSEN: I'm aware of that.

22 JUDGE PARKER: The witness can comment on this statement --

23 MS. NILSEN: I'm aware of this, Your Honour. I just would like

24 to state that exactly the same thing has been confronted to this witness

25 in a previously transcript.

Page 1167

1 JUDGE PARKER: Well, that's a matter -- sorry to stop you, but

2 it's not proper for you to be suggesting that at the moment. The witness

3 will answer these questions. You, if you wish, may raise something in

4 re-examination.

5 MS. NILSEN: That's fine, Your Honour. I would still like to say

6 that this question was not raised by the investigator. Thank you.

7 JUDGE PARKER: Well, did you hear me? Don't raise it at this

8 time.

9 MS. NILSEN: Okay. Thank you.

10 JUDGE PARKER: You can't coach the witness in that way.

11 MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. Mr. Ramadani, I'm forced to read back to you again what you

13 stated, and could you please put on your glasses and look at what you

14 said. You have your own statement in front of you on the screen, so let

15 us assist the Trial Chamber. Let us try and assist ourselves to clear up

16 some things. Thank you.

17 You see that they were first deployed there at 4.00 a.m. on the

18 25th of March. "I saw 40 to 50 vehicles parked on the road." Well,

19 that's uncontroversial. On the road outside of the village. What road?

20 It was the Djakovica-Prizren road. You will agree with me; right? Very

21 well.

22 "The vehicles I saw were a mixture of APCs and Pragas. They were

23 not camouflaged ..." so no tanks.

24 Let us skip the three paragraphs, and then you say:

25 "I have been asked if I'm aware of any T-55 tanks being stationed

Page 1168

1 in the area of Krusa e Vogel at this time."

2 So not even on the road but somewhere around it, three

3 kilometres, and you say, "No." Nobody asked you about whether it was the

4 tank -- if the tank was in the village, not even on the road but in the

5 area of Mala Krusa, and you say no, and then there are some questions

6 about what we discussed yesterday. We concluded there were no artillery,

7 but here we have one more answer on your part. You know there were no

8 rockets there, and there was not a single tank there. You are sure about

9 that. Could you please tell me, what did you mean then, and what do you

10 mean today; what did you mean yesterday? Because you keep talking about

11 tanks, and in 2001, when your memory was much fresher, the unpleasant

12 events that you had been through, there were no tanks. That's what you

13 say. That's a fact. So could you please just answer this. I will not

14 be asking any further questions, and I will not dwell on this anymore,

15 regardless of your answer.

16 A. I was questioned about the tanks and -- in the village. The

17 Prosecutors asked me whether there were tanks in the village, and I told

18 them there were no tanks in the village.

19 Q. I do apologise, Mr. Ramadani, but that's not true. They were

20 asking you very nicely whether in the area of Mala Krusa there was a

21 tank, in the area of Mala Krusa, not even on the road, in the area of

22 Mala Krusa, and your answer was no. So what you're saying now is not

23 true.

24 A. I'm telling you that they asked me about the tanks, whether there

25 were tanks in the village, whether there were army in the village. I

Page 1169

1 told them that in the village there were no tanks. There were no

2 soldiers. There were only police. They were asking me about things in

3 the village. There were no questions about outside the village. The

4 army was actually stationed on the road from Prizren to Gjakove. In the

5 village, the army was not. This is what I told them.

6 Q. Mr. Ramadani, this signature in the Roman script down here at the

7 bottom of the page, is that your signature? Did you sign this?

8 A. Yes, yes.

9 Q. Thank you. I'm not going to put any more questions to you with

10 regard to this.

11 MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] I would like to ask the usher to

12 make it possible for us to see once again 99 from the 92 ter list --

13 65 ter list. We want to have an aerial image of Mala Krusa, and that

14 will be the end of my cross. So it is number 99 from the 65 ter list.

15 It's an aerial image of Mala Krusa. That's right.

16 Q. Mr. Ramadani, could you please tell me whether you know when this

17 picture was taken?

18 A. No, I don't know. Late. At the time, there were not something

19 here which I see in the picture, like vegetation, for instance.

20 Q. Mr. Ramadani, can you tell me whether you know what year this

21 picture was taken? Do you know?

22 A. No, I cannot tell you that.

23 Q. Mr. Ramadani, could you tell me -- or, rather, could you mark the

24 houses of your Roma neighbours. And you did say that there were two

25 families. You spoke of the Gashi family. I'm not going to ask you

Page 1170

1 anything else in relation to that, and could you indicate to us where the

2 Serb houses were. On this picture, can one see that or not? Just tell

3 me that.

4 A. The Roma houses cannot be seen here. These houses cannot be seen

5 on this picture. Yes, for the Serb houses, I can tell you that.

6 Should I mark with the pencil?

7 MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] I would kindly ask the usher to

8 assist the witness so that he could indicate where the Serb houses are on

9 this picture.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This was the house of Dimitrije

11 Nikolic.

12 MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. The house with the circle? Could you please put number 1 there,

14 number 1 by that circle, please.

15 A. Yes, Dimitrije house was here. Here was the house -- here was

16 the house of Miljenka. Here was the house of Dusani, of Misic, of Seka,

17 of Poshkits [phoen]. This was the house of Spiro. This were the houses

18 of Nikolic.

19 Q. I did not see you mark the Nikolic houses.

20 A. Nikolic Dimitrije, Nikolic Milenko, Nikolic Dusani, Nikolic --

21 Q. Could you please mark those houses? Could you mark them, please?

22 A. Yes, yes. Nikolic Milenki, Nikolic Dimitrije, Nikolic Dusani,

23 Nikolic Milos, Nikolic Seka, Nikolic Bosko, Jovca.

24 Q. Could I ask you something else. This house without a roof on the

25 far right by the field, to the south, I mean, do you know whose house

Page 1171

1 this is? It's standing out there on its own, on the right.

2 A. Just a moment, please. This house was Petkovic's house.

3 Q. Petkovic house, that's right. Yes. Ranko Petkovic.

4 A. These houses were burned. This picture was taken later. So

5 these were the houses you asked me for. [Microphone not activated] was

6 the house of Djika.

7 Q. Thank you, Mr. Ramadani. Thank you, Mr. Ramadani.

8 I have to tell you that my learned friend Mr. Stamp when this

9 aerial image was being admitted into evidence said that this picture was

10 taken in the summer of 1999. I cannot believe or disbelieve him. It was

11 simply said, and I can only accept that.

12 What about the rest of the houses that you didn't mark? Are they

13 mostly Albanian houses? That would be my first question, because you

14 already marked the Serb houses.

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. You said that you found ashes there when you returned, and how do

17 you explain the fact that this picture shows that all the houses look

18 very nice and that they all have roofs and they don't seem burned,

19 torched in any way? At least that's the way they look from here. You

20 showed the Serb houses, and they have in roofs.

21 My question is not addressed to you now as far as the Serb houses

22 are concerned. My question to you is -- may I please finish,

23 Mr. Ramadani. You said that the houses were turned into ashes. That's

24 what you said literally, and we see that the houses are intact here.

25 They have roofs. Could you just give me your comment with regard to

Page 1172

1 that, and that will be my last question for you.

2 A. These houses were burnt down, but they were repaired later. This

3 house here -- this house here was the house of my brother. It was

4 totally burnt down. Now it has been repaired. This picture was taken

5 later. This house here was also repaired later, so these houses were

6 repaired, as you tell you. This is what happened with this house too.

7 It was destroyed and later repair. This one here was also repaired

8 later, this one too.

9 This one here was also rebuilt after being burnt down. So all

10 these houses were burnt down without roofs, and then they were rebuilt.

11 This picture was not taken then. It was taken later, after the

12 houses were rebuilt. This house here, for instance, was rebuilt later

13 too. I have put dates on which these houses were rebuilt. I have all

14 these documents. I have not taken these documents with me. This house

15 here, for instance, was already rebuilt. The same thing happened with

16 this one too. All these houses were destroyed, were burnt down and were

17 then rebuilt later after the war.

18 Q. Thank you, Mr. Ramadani, for having answered all my questions. I

19 do appreciate that.

20 MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] I should like to ask the Trial

21 Chamber to have this marked photograph admitted into evidence.

22 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Ramadani, I have a problem -- I beg your

23 pardon. Mr. Djordjevic, I have a problem. You started by having the

24 witness mark Serb houses. As his evidence progressed, he also marked a

25 number of houses which he said were burned and had been rebuilt. So we

Page 1173

1 have now both Serb and Albanian houses marked. Is that what you're

2 wanting?

3 MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, as Defence counsel,

4 for the sake of objectivity, I have to say that I would agree with the

5 witness would mark with a different colour the Albanian houses that had

6 allegedly been burnt and then repaired. That why it's not logical when

7 we read the transcript. This house was also burnt down and was rebuilt

8 after the war. Those are his words. I agree that the witness could use

9 a different coloured pen to mark all the other things that he was

10 referring to, and then could we have it admitted into evidence so that it

11 would all become clear.

12 JUDGE PARKER: I would ask the court officer to clear the

13 markings, if you would. Thank you.

14 Mr. Ramadani, with your pen, would you please put a circle around

15 the houses that were occupied by Serb families in March 1999.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] [Marks]

17 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you for that. Now I'll ask the court

18 officer to give you a red marking pen. Now could you mark the houses

19 that you can see that were burned down and then rebuilt.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] [Marks]

21 MR. DJORDJEVIC: It seems we have a problem, Your Honour.

22 JUDGE PARKER: Not so far.

23 MR. DJORDJEVIC: Okay. Okay. Now it's okay.

24 JUDGE PARKER: Yes.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] [Marks] these ones cannot be seen

Page 1174

1 very well, but one should be here, the other one here.

2 MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] I would like to tender what the

3 witness has marked. Could it please be admitted into evidence?

4 JUDGE PARKER: For the transcript, the witness has marked in blue

5 with circles the houses occupied by Serb families and is circling in red,

6 and is still doing it, houses which he says were burned and then have

7 been rebuilt.

8 Thank you very much, Mr. Ramadani.

9 That marked photograph will now be received.

10 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit D30, Your Honours.

11 MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] I suggest that we take the break

12 now before the Prosecutor re-examines, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much, Mr. Djordjevic.

14 Ms. Nilsen, can you indicate how long you would like -- expect to

15 be in re-examination?

16 MS. NILSEN: Your Honour --

17 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

18 MS. NILSEN: Your Honour, the Prosecution doesn't have any

19 re-examination questions. I would just like for the record to clarify

20 this picture so it's -- the date is correct. It was said the 12th of

21 February by Mr. Stamp, that it was taken in 1999 by ICTY investigator. I

22 am afraid that's not correct. I think the right date would be 6th of

23 September, 2001, Your Honours.

24 JUDGE PARKER: Well, that may need to be a matter of evidence if

25 there's some dispute about it. Our present evidence is that this

Page 1175

1 photograph shows houses that were destroyed by fire and rebuilt, and that

2 can't have been in the date originally indicated. If you want to lead

3 evidence about the actual date of the photograph, that can be done.

4 MS. NILSEN: Thank you.

5 JUDGE PARKER: Now, I did stop you when you were wanting to

6 mention -- Ms. Nilsen. I did stop you when you were wanting to mention

7 during cross-examination evidence given by the witness in another trial.

8 That was a matter -- I stopped you then because it could have been a

9 coaching of the witness. If it's a matter that you wish to pursue and

10 have recorded, it's a matter you can put to the witness now in

11 re-examination.

12 MS. NILSEN: Well, thank you, Your Honour, but I will not have

13 any questions. Thank you.

14 [Trial Chamber confers]

15 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Ramadani, that concludes the questions for

16 you. The Chamber would like to thank you for your assistance here and

17 the trouble you've taken to come to The Hague to help. We will give

18 attention to your evidence in due course when we hear the other

19 witnesses. So you may now go with the court officer who will show you

20 out, and you are free to go back to your home and your ordinary

21 activities, and you go with our thanks.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

23 MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, with regard to the

24 photograph and when the photograph was taken -- well, we won't be needing

25 the witness any more definitely.