Page 1874
1 Monday, 9 March 2009
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.04 a.m.
5 JUDGE PARKER: Good morning. We will have the next witness in.
6 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
7 [The witness entered court]
8 JUDGE PARKER: Good morning.
9 THE WITNESS: Good morning.
10 JUDGE PARKER: Could you please read aloud the affirmation --
11 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Your Honour, please.
12 JUDGE PARKER: -- that is on the card handed to you.
13 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the
14 whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
15 WITNESS: SARANDA BOGUJEVCI
16 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. Please sit down.
17 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
18 JUDGE PARKER: Now, I believe Ms. Kravica has some questions for
19 you.
20 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
21 MS. KRAVETZ: Thank you, Your Honour.
22 Examination by Ms. Kravetz:
23 Q. Good morning, witness, could you please state your full name for
24 the record.
25 A. Saranda Bogujevci.
Page 1875
1 Q. When and where were you born, Ms. Bogujevci?
2 A. I was born in the town of Podujevo
3 Q. Where are you currently residing?
4 A. In England
5 Q. Since when have you been living in Manchester?
6 A. Since September 1999.
7 Q. In May 2000, did you provide a video interview to a
8 representative of the OTP Simon Matthews in Manchester about events that
9 you had witnessed in Podujevo in March of 1999?
10 A. Yes, I did.
11 Q. Did you provide a second statement to representatives of the OTP
12 in -- last year, October of 2008, regarding these same events?
13 A. Yes, I did.
14 Q. Have you recently had the opportunity to review both the
15 transcript of your video interview and your written statement?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And having reviewed them --
18 THE INTERPRETER: Could the counsel please make a pause before
19 asking the questions. Thank you.
20 MS. KRAVETZ: Yes, I apologise.
21 Q. Ms. Bogujevci, since we're both going to be speaking the same
22 language today, we have to pause between question and answer in order to
23 allow the court reporter to record the -- all what is being said here in
24 court?
25 A. Okay.
Page 1876
1 Q. Having reviewed -- having recently had the opportunity to review
2 both the transcript of your video interview and your previous statement,
3 are you satisfied that the information contained in these documents is
4 true and accurate to the best of your knowledge and belief?
5 A. Yes, I do -- I did see those some like names spelling mistakes,
6 and things like that, but apart from that it's what I said.
7 Q. And the spelling mistakes are in which of the two documents, your
8 previous statement or in the transcript of the interview?
9 A. In the previous statement.
10 Q. Okay.
11 MS. KRAVETZ: I don't know --
12 Q. Just go ahead.
13 A. Sorry. I can't remember now which one it was. It was from the
14 previous statement, just some of the names were spelled wrong.
15 Q. Okay. Thank you. Other than that, are you satisfied that the
16 information contained in these documents is true and accurate?
17 A. Yes.
18 MS. KRAVETZ: Your Honours, I seek to tender both of these
19 documents these are C05128, that's the transcript of the video interview
20 and C05127, this is the previous statement.
21 JUDGE PARKER: They will be received.
22 THE REGISTRAR: 01528 [sic], Your Honours, will be P00372 and the
23 next one with the 65 ter number 05127 will be P00373.
24 MS. KRAVETZ:
25 Q. Ms. Bogujevci, did you also testify about these same events that
Page 1877
1 took place in Podujevo in March 1999 before the Belgrade district court
2 in the trial against Sasa Cvjetan?
3 A. Yes, I did.
4 Q. Have you recently had the opportunity to review the transcript of
5 your testimony before the Belgrade
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And having reviewed it, if you were asked the same questions that
8 you were asked during your testimony there, would you provide the same
9 answers?
10 A. Yes.
11 MS. KRAVETZ: Your Honours, I seek to tender this transcript into
12 evidence. I do want to point out that this is 05129. We have uploaded a
13 version in e-court which I have been told by my learned colleague from
14 the Defence, it's incomplete, it's missing three paragraphs. It was
15 missing those three paragraphs in the version that we received from the
16 Belgrade
17 complete and it has that -- it was page 13 which was missing and which
18 contained these additional three paragraphs. Unfortunately we don't have
19 it at this stage. I only received this morning a translation for that,
20 for the witness to review. So at this stage I seek to tender the version
21 that is in e-court, but I do point out that it is missing a page.
22 JUDGE PARKER: I see from signs of those who are always ahead of
23 us in front of me that we have the additional paragraphs in hard copy, no
24 doubt thanks to the assistance of Mr. Djurdjic. So we will receive those
25 as part of the exhibit.
Page 1878
1 MS. KRAVETZ: Okay. And what I'd propose is that -- I'm sorry.
2 What I propose is that we will send this last bit for translation just so
3 that it -- the whole testimony gets uploaded.
4 JUDGE PARKER: Yes. Thank you.
5 It will be received, the transcript and the additional page in
6 hard copy.
7 THE REGISTRAR: D00374, Your Honours.
8 MS. KRAVETZ: I will now proceed to read a brief summary of this
9 witness's evidence.
10 The witness is a survivor of a massacre that took place in the
11 town of Podujevo, Kosovo, on 28th March, 1999. On the weeks preceding
12 the commencement of the NATO bombing, there was an increase in police and
13 military presence on the streets of Podujevo. Once the NATO bombing
14 began, the witness and her extended family were staying in the family
15 compound in Podujevo. Another family, the Duriqis were also staying in a
16 house at the rear of the compound. On the 28th March, 1999, a police
17 vehicle stopped outside the family compound. Fearing for their safety,
18 the witness family moved to the house where the Duriqis were staying. At
19 the time the family included only women and children as the men had gone
20 into hiding. The witness describes how that day persons whom she
21 describes as soldiers entered into the family compound and ordered the
22 group out of the compound and into a neighbour's courtyard. Once in the
23 courtyard the soldiers opened fire on the group killing 14 persons all
24 women and children. The witness and four of her cousins survived the
25 massacre. The witness also describes the killing of an elderly male
Page 1879
1 member of the Duriqi. Family and of a neighbour.
2 I would like to request for the usher to please provide the
3 witness with a copy of her statement.
4 Q. Ms. Bogujevci, I would like to move to your statement and to ask
5 you a couple of questions about events you described in your statement of
6 October 2008. Now, in paragraph 17 of your statement, you referred to
7 the commencement of the NATO bombing, and you say in the weeks --
8 previous weeks and months before the NATO bombing, there had been a
9 significant development and an increase in the number of policemen and
10 army soldiers on the streets of Podujevo, and you say these were a
11 regular sight. Was this something that you yourself saw, this increase
12 in the number of police and soldiers on the streets of Podujevo?
13 A. Yes, I can't remember the exact date, but I remember tanks going
14 past my street and there were quite a few of them.
15 Q. Was this something that happened on a specific day, or did you
16 see this happen on different occasions, these tanks going by your street?
17 A. I particularly remember that -- that day on -- when the tanks --
18 but there was always, you know, soldiers around the town and policemen.
19 Q. And do you recall approximately how many weeks prior to the
20 commencement of the NATO bombing did you see these tanks going by your
21 house?
22 A. I'm not 100 per cent sure, but it could have been kind of the
23 beginning of the year, so, you know, the beginning of 1999, roughly
24 around that time.
25 Q. Thank you. Now, you say in paragraph 19 that in days prior to
Page 1880
1 the commencement of the NATO bombing, there had been rumours that Serb
2 forces were targeting and killing men, and so the decision was made for
3 your father and Selatin to hide away from the house. Do you recall how
4 you received this information that Serb forces were targeting and killing
5 men?
6 A. I just remember being -- everyone being at home, and I don't
7 remember exactly who -- who said it, but I just heard that, you know, men
8 were being targeted; and we asked for my father and my uncle to leave the
9 house, especially my cousin Nora, she was really worried about my uncle.
10 So she said to him, you know, please leave because we'll be all right
11 because we're only women and children. And so we asked to leave -- we
12 asked them to leave, but they were still around the town but they were
13 just not staying at the house.
14 Q. Now, turning to events that happened on the 28th of March, you
15 say in paragraph 25 that you were alerted to the fact on the morning --
16 early morning of 28th March that someone had seen a police vehicle pull
17 up in front of your compound and that you decided if -- because you
18 feared for your safety, to move to your uncle's house in the rear of the
19 compound. Why was it decided that you would be safer in your father's
20 uncle's house at the rear of the compound?
21 A. It's just because my house is on the main street, so it's right
22 by the street, and -- you know, my father's uncle's house is further
23 inside, in the garden, so we thought, you know, maybe it would be safer
24 to be away from the main street.
25 Q. Now in paragraph 26 you indicate the persons who -- once you had
Page 1881
1 moved to this house at the rear of the compound -- the persons who were
2 staying in this house, and you referred to 19 persons, members of your
3 family, the Bogujevcis, and members of the Duriqi family, and you also
4 referred to two persons by the last name of Lugaliju, Nefise and Fezrije.
5 Since when had these two persons been living with your family?
6 A. They were with us for a while because they lived in the village
7 and there was a lot more going on around the villages before the NATO
8 bombings in the town, you know, you constantly hear, you know, like
9 bombings and stuff like that from the villages. So she was with us for a
10 while. I can't remember exactly when she came.
11 Q. And when you say there was a lot more going on in the villages,
12 what exactly was happening in the villages?
13 A. Well, we just heard kind of, you know, explosions like, you know,
14 bombs and stuff like that. So it was -- you could constantly hear it
15 from the villages. So everyone was moving from the villages into the
16 town.
17 Q. I understand from your statement from this list of persons that
18 you were 19 in total in this house in the rear of the compound, and that
19 the only man in the group was a person by the name of Hamdi Duriqi, who
20 was around 70 years old at the time?
21 A. Yes, that's Enver Duriqi's father.
22 Q. And for how long had the Duriqis been staying in this house at
23 the rear of the compound?
24 A. As far as I remember, they were there for a few days, maybe two
25 days or around, you know, just a few days.
Page 1882
1 Q. And why were they staying with you, the Duriqis?
2 A. Again, they moved, because they lived in the village so they just
3 moved from the village into the town because, you know, they thought it
4 would be safer to be in the town.
5 Q. Now, you explain in your statement that in the early morning of
6 the 28th, once you had moved to the house in the rear of the compound,
7 you saw soldiers in the courtyard and you say there were approximately
8 four or five of them moving around and then you decided to leave the
9 house. Why was it decided that you should leave the house where you
10 were, where the whole group was staying, once you saw these soldiers?
11 A. Well, we were at the house and when our neighbours came and he
12 said that it's better to stay in the house and then -- because the
13 soldiers were coming into the houses and they were taking people out of
14 the houses. So he said it's better to stay in the house; when they come
15 in, they'll take you out.
16 So we stayed in the house, and then from the other neighbour's
17 house, which was next to the house where we were, my father's uncle's
18 house, one of the soldiers broke a window that was -- you could see
19 through to the garden where we -- to the house and the garden where we
20 were. And then we saw them come in -- coming in, so, you know -- because
21 we were told that they were taking them -- you know, they were taking
22 everyone out of the houses so we started to going out to the houses
23 because we thought they were doing the same thing.
24 So we started walking out, and we were asked to raise our hands,
25 and we had some bags with us like food and, you know, things like that,
Page 1883
1 things that, you know, we needed. And they asked us if there was anyone
2 in the house, and we told them there wasn't anyone in there, but they
3 still went in to have a look. And they asked us to -- to drop our bags
4 by the house. And then from there we were taken to our neighbour's
5 house -- our neighbour's garden, sorry, and into the next neighbour's
6 garden. But those that came in, they were around our garden and, moving
7 forward towards our house and we were left with the soldiers on the other
8 garden.
9 Q. And you also refer -- you also indicated that they searched you,
10 and then they took your aunt, Shefkate, to a shed. Was this the same
11 group of four or five soldiers who took your aunt to a shed?
12 A. No, these soldiers -- they were other ones that we met at the
13 other garden.
14 Q. So there were two different groups of soldiers?
15 A. Well, not necessarily. It's just -- the first ones, they just
16 came in, took us out, then they moved forward and then we were taken to
17 the other garden so there were other soldiers there. They were
18 altogether but they were just moving into different places.
19 Q. And this first group of soldiers, with what type of uniform were
20 they wearing if you recall?
21 A. They had the green camouflage.
22 Q. And this second group of soldiers, with whom you were in the
23 courtyard, were they wearing the same type or different?
24 A. Same uniform.
25 Q. Now, you told us you were taken to a courtyard, and in your
Page 1884
1 statement you indicate that you were then taken back out to the street?
2 A. From our neighbour's garden we were taken to the next neighbour's
3 garden; and then from that garden, we were taken out into the street
4 where we saw the soldiers. But the soldiers on the street they had like
5 mixed uniform, they had like the army trousers and like the police, they
6 had all like mixed uniforms, and some of them had the same uniform as the
7 other soldiers.
8 Q. And the group that was taken back out from the courtyard back out
9 into the street, was this the same group of 19 people that were
10 originally in the house?
11 A. Well, my auntie was separated, and we were in the other
12 neighbour's garden and then we were taken to the street.
13 Q. And you told us that at the street -- once you were in the
14 street, you were able to observe soldiers in mixed uniform. What else,
15 if anything, were you able to observe while you were -- your group was
16 out on the street?
17 A. Well, they were breaking the windows and the shops on the
18 streets, and they were shouting at us and swearing, and there was
19 constant shouting.
20 Q. Did your group then remain together during this time that you
21 were on the street?
22 A. Yeah, we were kind of in a line.
23 Q. Were there any other civilians on the street while you were
24 there?
25 A. Sorry, could you --
Page 1885
1 Q. Were there any other civilians on the street while your group was
2 there?
3 A. While I was taken out I saw Selman Gashi who was my mother's
4 uncle. He was with another soldier and the soldier took his hats, the
5 plis, the traditional Albanian hat, and they were teasing him and playing
6 around with him.
7 Q. And what happened to Selman Gashi?
8 A. Well, he was taken into one of the shops, and then there was this
9 other soldiers who -- this other soldier who was talking to Hamdi Duriqi
10 and -- I don't know what he said to him, and then he slapped him on the
11 face and then he took Hamdi into the shop where Selman was taken. And
12 then the same soldier went in after him and we just -- we heard two, two
13 gun-shots.
14 Q. Have you seen Selman Gashi or Hamdi Duriqi since that day?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Now, where were you taken once -- from the street? You said you
17 remained in the street, and then where did you go?
18 A. We were taken back to our neighbour's garden and we were -- when
19 we were taken back, that's when I saw my auntie Shefkate, and she was
20 crying. And as I said before, I -- the only thing I could understand
21 that she was saying is that, you know, they were only children. And then
22 from there soldiers took her behind the house, and we were taken as well
23 behind the house. There was kind of like a small path and the soldier,
24 he -- he just pushed her and shot her. And then I remember my cousins
25 crying and, you know, calling, you know, mom. And then when I looked
Page 1886
1 back at my auntie, she was on the ground, and then the soldier shot her
2 again, and then he changed his gun, and he started shooting at us.
3 Q. I would like to play a small video, which is 05219. And it's
4 going to appear on your screen.
5 [Video-clip played]
6 THE WITNESS: This is the garden.
7 MS. KRAVETZ: If we could pause it there, please.
8 THE WITNESS: We were taken behind the house there, and my auntie
9 was behind this path, probably around there.
10 MS. KRAVETZ:
11 Q. We can't see you --
12 A. You can't see it -- sorry.
13 Q. Don't worry, we'll see that later.
14 A. Okay.
15 Q. Do you know when these images were filmed, the ones that we just
16 saw?
17 A. As far as I remember, 2004/2003, I can't remember exactly.
18 Q. And we -- is that you on that movie there?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. We saw you entering a hallway. Where are you coming from?
21 A. From the street.
22 Q. So this is the street where the group had been?
23 A. Yeah.
24 Q. We saw you turn here and you go into this courtyard. Is this the
25 courtyard that you were referring to?
Page 1887
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. You were telling us that the soldier shot your mother and then --
3 your aunt, and then he changed his gun and shot at the group. What
4 happened when he began shooting at the group?
5 A. When he started shooting, I just leaned on the wall and just
6 slided down and then it hit me on my right leg, the bullets, and then
7 after a while the shooting stopped; and there was a sound from someone,
8 the kind of sound where you're struggling to breathe, and then the
9 shooting started again. And then when the shooting started again, it hit
10 me in my arm and in my back. And then after a while, the shooting
11 stopped, and then it was quiet, so I wasn't sure whether the soldiers
12 were still there or had gone. And then I decided to lift my head up.
13 And then I just -- I looked around and I saw my cousin Genc, who had
14 lifted his head up as well, and I saw my brother Shpetim, who was 9 years
15 old. He was lying face-down on my feet, and he was shot on his head,
16 half of his head was missing. And I also saw Fatos, my cousin Fatos, he
17 was in front of me and there was something behind his back and it looked
18 kind of -- it was something from the inside of the body, something from
19 the body. So I thought the, you know, he was dead, but then he lifted
20 his head up as well and I realised then that he was alive. And I also
21 saw Enver's son, the old one, and he was shot in his face. I couldn't
22 really tell where his eyes was or his mouth. And I also saw my
23 grandmother, she was lying down, and she was facing me, and her eyes were
24 opened.
25 And then after a while I heard some sounds, and I said to Genc,
Page 1888
1 you know, to lie down and I -- I lied down as well. And I heard, you
2 know, voices, you know, talking. And then I also heard one of my cousins
3 like -- you know, as a moan when you're in pain, and then decided to, you
4 know, to move. I wasn't quite sure what was happening, but kind of as an
5 instinct, I just -- I moved and then there were other soldiers in the
6 garden, and they pulled me from the bodies and -- but they had a
7 different uniform to the other soldiers, and they were speaking in
8 Serbian as well.
9 Q. If I may stop you there. How many soldiers did you see shooting
10 at the group?
11 A. One.
12 Q. How many soldiers were there in the garden or was there only one
13 soldier in the garden?
14 A. No, there were a few soldiers and there were soldiers always, you
15 know, constantly moving, you know, coming in the garden, going out, you
16 know but there were a few of them there.
17 Q. You tell us in your statement that you believed that there was
18 more than one soldier doing the shooting. Why is that?
19 A. It's -- it's just with my -- with my wounds. The soldier that
20 started shooting was on my left. When I slided down and I was on the
21 ground, there was a wall in front of me, and there was a wall on to my
22 right, where I was leaning on, and the soldier who started shooting was
23 on my left, and I have a bullet wound which is -- on my back, which is a
24 straight -- so I can't see how a bullet from my left can go straight, you
25 know, onto my back. So that's why I believe there was more than one that
Page 1889
1 did the shooting.
2 Q. And this was at paragraph --
3 JUDGE PARKER: Could you just pause, please, Ms. Kravetz.
4 MS. KRAVETZ: Yes.
5 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Djurdjic.
6 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, when the witness was
7 asked today by my learned friend, Ms. Kravetz, that only -- she answered
8 that only one soldier opened fire on two occasions, and then she was
9 taken back to her statement where she had stated that several soldiers
10 had fired shots. I think that this was impermissible leading of the
11 witness.
12 JUDGE PARKER: It's partly the product of the system of using
13 written statement supplemented by oral, Mr. Djurdjic. It's a matter
14 which the Chamber will be well aware of and will assess in considering
15 the whole of the evidence, but the statement did, as I understand it,
16 specifically refer to more than one soldier as a matter of belief rather
17 than a matter of observation. And so I believe Ms. Kravetz was correct
18 in trying to clarify that.
19 MS. KRAVETZ: And then I should have stated, Your Honour, that
20 this is at paragraph 60 of the statement. I failed to indicate that when
21 I was putting my question.
22 I would like to tender this clip, this video into evidence at
23 this stage this is 05219.
24 JUDGE PARKER: Are you tendering the lot or merely the moment
25 that we have scene?
Page 1890
1 MS. KRAVETZ: I'm tendering the whole exhibit. We're going to be
2 seeing some still shots from the same video which I plan now to show to
3 the witness.
4 JUDGE PARKER: How long is the video?
5 MS. KRAVETZ: The video, I believe, is approximately 45 minutes,
6 maybe a bit longer, and it contains other images that we will be seeing.
7 The reason I'm tendering the whole video is simply to provide some
8 context to Your Honours of the location where the shooting took place.
9 What we're interested in are the -- all the aerial shots and the shots of
10 the garden itself.
11 JUDGE PARKER: Well, I think we better know more about what's in
12 it, so perhaps you could return to tendering it when you have completed
13 dealing with the video with the witness.
14 MS. KRAVETZ: That's no problem, Your Honour.
15 If we could have 05219.01 on the screen, and I just want page 1
16 of that exhibit to be displayed.
17 Q. Ms. Bogujevci, we're going to be looking at some photographs on
18 the screen that's right before you. I don't know if that has appeared.
19 Do you recognise the photograph that is before you?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Can you tell us what is depicted there?
22 A. It's the garden where the shooting happened.
23 MS. KRAVETZ: If the usher could kindly assist the witness.
24 Q. I'm going to ask you to -- there's a pen on the side of your
25 screen, and I'm going to ask you to draw on this photograph.
Page 1891
1 A. Okay.
2 Q. I would like you to mark with an X the location where the group
3 was in the garden when the shooting occurred.
4 A. [Marks]
5 Q. Could you put a 1 to indicate the shooter that you saw, the
6 soldier that you saw shooting.
7 A. Whereabouts?
8 Q. Where you remember him standing.
9 A. I remember him standing around there, on the path.
10 Q. Now, you had indicated earlier that you also saw your aunt,
11 Shefkate, and that she was shot. Could you put a 2 to indicate
12 approximately where you recall she was standing before she was shoot.
13 A. Right next to the soldiers.
14 MS. KRAVETZ: Just for the sake of the transcript, I indicate
15 that the witness has drawn a 1 and right above it a number 2. It's not
16 very clear on the photograph, so I'm just indicating that.
17 Q. You told us that there were other soldiers in the courtyard.
18 Could you indicate where they were. You could simply just draw a line to
19 indicate where they were.
20 A. Around there, like ...
21 MS. KRAVETZ: The witness has drawn a line right below the
22 number 1 to indicate where other soldiers were standing.
23 Q. Now, do we see -- in the video-clip we played earlier, we saw you
24 entering through a passageway. Is that -- can we see this on the
25 photograph?
Page 1892
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Could you indicate an arrow to show how you entered this
3 courtyard, the direction from where you came.
4 A. [Marks]
5 Q. Now, we see another courtyard right to the right of where you've
6 drawn the arrow. Is this the courtyard from where you were originally
7 brought, or is this a different house?
8 A. This is the garden where I was when my aunt Shefkate was
9 separated from us, and we were taken to the street.
10 Q. So this is the garden we see to the right of where you've drawn
11 the arrow?
12 A. Yeah.
13 Q. Now, we don't see a street on this photograph, but where would
14 the street be on this photograph. If you could draw a line to indicate
15 that.
16 A. It would be around, behind the house. I don't know how to --
17 Q. So it would be --
18 A. Because we were -- so you went through there and then you take --
19 it goes straight into the -- into the street.
20 Q. So the arrow that you've drawn, the street would be behind the
21 entrance we see there where the arrow starts?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Thank you.
24 MS. KRAVETZ: Could this photograph be assigned an exhibit number
25 before I move to the next photograph?
Page 1893
1 JUDGE PARKER: Yes.
2 The exhibits we've received this morning, we've noticed -- the
3 court officer have noticed have been given a wrong number. So I'd ask
4 him to re-assign the numbers now for those exhibits, and we'll also
5 receive this photo.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you, Your Honours.
7 65 ter number 05127 was assigned P00373; 65 ter number 05129 was
8 assigned P00374; and 05128 would be assigned P00375; and the photograph
9 with the markings the witness has just made with 65 ter number 05129.01
10 would be assigned P00376.
11 MS. KRAVETZ: I'm sorry.
12 If we could see page 2 of the same exhibit.
13 Q. Do you recognise this photograph, Ms. Bogujevci?
14 A. Yes. It's still the garden where the shooting happened.
15 Q. In paragraph 39 of your statement you say that when you were
16 taken out to the street from this courtyard, the first time you were
17 taken out, you were taken to a street facing the police station. I would
18 like to know, is the police station visible in this photograph; and if it
19 is, if you could draw a circle.
20 A. As far as I can make out in the picture, that would be the police
21 station.
22 Q. Thank you.
23 MS. KRAVETZ: I wonder if this photograph could be assigned an
24 exhibit number.
25 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
Page 1894
1 THE REGISTRAR: That will be P00377, Your Honours.
2 MS. KRAVETZ: Could we now have page 3 of this exhibit.
3 Q. Can you tell us what is depicted in this photograph.
4 A. It's the place where we were and -- when we got shot.
5 Q. Can you draw an X to show -- indicate where it was that you were
6 standing when the shooting occurred.
7 A. I was kind of in the middle -- kind of in the middle of everyone,
8 really, of the wall, so probably around there.
9 Q. And you had indicated earlier that when the shooting started you
10 slid down the wall. Were you referring to this wall that may have just
11 marked?
12 A. Yeah.
13 Q. And where would the shooter have been standing in with regard
14 to --
15 A. Further -- further away on -- to the left.
16 Q. Thank you.
17 MS. KRAVETZ: If this photograph could please be assigned an
18 exhibit number.
19 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
20 THE REGISTRAR: That will be P00378, Your Honours.
21 MS. KRAVETZ: If we could see page 5 of this exhibit.
22 Q. Can you tell us what is shown here on the photograph.
23 A. That would be the wall that was in front of me that I was facing
24 when I was down.
25 Q. We see that this wall has markings that have been covered. Were
Page 1895
1 those there on the day of the shooting?
2 A. No.
3 Q. So would those have been caused by -- on the day of the shooting,
4 those markings?
5 A. Yes, on the day of the shooting.
6 MS. KRAVETZ: Could we now see page 6 of this exhibit.
7 Q. Do you recognise the persons on this photograph, Ms. Bogujevci?
8 A. Yes, it's my mother, Sala, and my father, Safet Bogujevci.
9 Q. Was your mother in the group that was shot in the courtyard?
10 A. Yes, she was.
11 Q. And what happened to your mother?
12 A. She was killed.
13 Q. How old was your mother at the time --
14 A. She was 38.
15 MS. KRAVETZ: Could we see the next photograph, please.
16 Q. Do you recognise the person in this photograph?
17 A. It's my grandmother, Shehide.
18 Q. And was your grandmother in the group in the courtyard?
19 A. Yes, she was.
20 Q. What happened to your grandmother?
21 A. She was killed as well.
22 Q. And do you recall approximately how old she was at the time?
23 A. Around 60.
24 MS. KRAVETZ: Now could we see the last photograph of this
25 exhibit.
Page 1896
1 Q. Do you recognise the two persons in this photograph?
2 A. Yes, on the right is my older brother, Shpend Bogujevci, who was
3 12 years old at that time, who was also killed; and to the left is my
4 brother, Shpetim Bogujevci, who was 9 at the time, who was also killed.
5 Q. Thank you.
6 Now, this video-clip that we've seen and these images, you've
7 told us that they were shot -- that they were filmed approximately in
8 2003/2004. Do you recall who filmed these images?
9 A. Yeah, it was a journalist, Paresh Patel.
10 Q. And from which agency was this journalist?
11 A. The BBC
12 Q. And do you know what was done with these images that were filmed
13 that day, the video that was filmed?
14 A. There was a documentary that was shown in England.
15 Q. And what was that documentary about?
16 A. It was about the story of what happened to our family.
17 Q. Do you recall what that documentary was called?
18 A. It's part of a programme that was in BBC called Real Story.
19 Q. And approximately do you recall when that documentary was aired,
20 the Real Stories?
21 A. As far as I remember, it was around the -- towards the end of
22 2004.
23 Q. Thank you.
24 MS. KRAVETZ: Your Honours, I seek to tender both the still shots
25 and the clip that we played or the video that was played earlier. These
Page 1897
1 are 05219 and 05219.01.
2 JUDGE PARKER: Photos and the video will be received.
3 Mr. Djurdjic.
4 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] I do apologise, Your Honour, but
5 are we admitting only the clip that we saw or the part of the film that
6 we did not see as well? Ms. Kravetz showed us, as far as I can remember,
7 I'm not sure now, only the wall by the building and the entrance into the
8 yard, the witness entering the yard. I think that's about 4 seconds, and
9 we didn't see more than that.
10 JUDGE PARKER: Do you object to the tendering of the whole video?
11 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Yes, yes. We did not see --or,
12 rather, now we see that the witness confirmed the name of the author, the
13 name of the film, and the time; but we did not see any of that ourselves.
14 The witness confirmed only the part that -- I mean, that has to do with
15 when she walked in, and I'm not objecting to that.
16 JUDGE PARKER: Ms. Kravetz.
17 MS. KRAVETZ: Your Honour, the images that we just saw are all
18 from the same video. The reason I -- as I indicated earlier that we are
19 seeking to tender the whole video is to provide Your Honours with some
20 context of what this courtyard looks like, from where the persons were
21 brought into the courtyard, and the adjoining buildings. So we have
22 taken these shots from there, but there is more footage in the video that
23 shows -- that will provide Your Honours with a better idea of what the
24 location looks like. Due to time constraints, I'm not able to play
25 further clips from the video, and so that's why we've prepared these
Page 1898
1 still shots, in order to proceed faster with this evidence.
2 JUDGE PARKER: The objection is made simply on the basis that it
3 hasn't been viewed in court, Ms. Kravetz. Have you got something to say
4 about that?
5 MS. KRAVETZ: Well, the video has been provided to the Defence.
6 We provided it when we received it from the BBC in November of last year,
7 so I imagine my learned colleague has had the opportunity to view it
8 fully. I don't know if the objection is to a specific portion of the
9 video, but --
10 JUDGE PARKER: The objection made is that it hasn't been viewed
11 in court.
12 MS. KRAVETZ: Well, as I indicated, Your Honours, we saw a
13 portion of it, a small clip of the video, and I'm unable to play the
14 remainder of the video simply due to time constraints because it is a
15 lengthy video.
16 JUDGE PARKER: The Chamber will come back to this matter after
17 we've had cross-examination, Ms. Kravetz.
18 MS. KRAVETZ: Thank you, Your Honours. No problem.
19 JUDGE PARKER: Now, there are the photos which will be received.
20 THE REGISTRAR: The photographs under 05219.01, Your Honours,
21 would be assigned P00379.
22 MS. KRAVETZ:
23 Q. Ms. Bogujevci, just very briefly, you were telling us that you
24 were -- you sustained several injuries during the shooting. Can you tell
25 us exactly where you were injured in this incident?
Page 1899
1 A. My right leg, my left arm, and my back.
2 Q. And how many gun-shot wounds did you sustain in total?
3 A. There was two in my leg and there was one in my back and in the
4 whole of my arm, my left arm, and my hands, the whole of my arm.
5 Q. And how many gun-shot wounds did you receive in your left arm?
6 A. 13.
7 Q. As a result of the injuries that you sustained, today do you have
8 any sort of complications with using your left arm?
9 A. I have limited movement and I can't straighten my fingers or make
10 a grip; also with my elbow, I can't straighten it fully or kind of bend
11 it as well, you know, to be able to -- you know, to reach anything. So I
12 have very limited movements in my arm.
13 Q. Just going briefly back to the events of the 28th of March, in
14 total how many persons were killed in the courtyard that we saw there on
15 this video?
16 A. My mother, my two brothers, my grandmother, and my aunt Shefkate,
17 and my cousin Nora, my father's auntie, Nefise, and her daughter-in-law.
18 So it's eight members of my family and also the seven members of the
19 Duriqi family and Selman Gashi.
20 Q. And who survived the killing?
21 A. My cousin Fatos, my cousin Jehona, Lirije, and Genc, and myself.
22 Q. Now, in your statement you describe how you were taken to the
23 hospital in Pristina and that at some point your father came to visit
24 you. How did your father find out that you were at the Pristina
25 hospital?
Page 1900
1 A. Jehona's -- one of Jehona's classmates was at the hospital before
2 the NATO bombing started, so his father wasn't able to get him out of the
3 hospital straight away. So later on he came to -- you know, to take him,
4 and he knew my father, and I told him what had happened, and he said that
5 he will try and find him and tell him where we were and what had
6 happened.
7 Q. And was he able to locate your father?
8 A. Yes. After -- after, you know, what happened, I think it was
9 about after a month my father came to see us at the hospital.
10 Q. For how long did you remain at the hospital in Pristina?
11 A. I was there until June 1999.
12 Q. And where did you go once you left the hospital in Pristina?
13 A. I was at home, but also there was some doctors with the NATO, the
14 KFOR, that came at Kosovo who were changing our bandages. And after
15 that, in September, we were flown to England, to Manchester
16 medical treatments there.
17 Q. For how long did you continue your medical treatment?
18 A. For quite a few years. I mean, I still sometimes have to go for
19 physiotherapy because my fingers, sometimes they get stiffer. So I
20 still, you know, sometimes go to the physiotherapy, and I see my doctor
21 as well still.
22 Q. Okay. Thank you very much.
23 MS. KRAVETZ: Your Honours, I have no further questions for this
24 witness at this stage.
25 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
Page 1901
1 Mr. Djurdjic.
2 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
3 Cross-examination by Mr. Djurdjic:
4 Q. [Interpretation] Ms. Saranda, my name is Veljko Djurdjic, and I'm
5 a member of the Defence team of the accused, Vlastimir Djordjevic.
6 Together with me today is also Ms. Marie O'Leary, and the lead counsel is
7 away on official business. His name is Dragoljub Djordjevic.
8 Before I put some questions to you, I would like to express my
9 deepest and most sincere condolences due to the loss of your nearest and
10 dearest and the kind of pain that can never go away. I wish to say to
11 you that I would not be putting a single question to you had the Office
12 of the Prosecutor not taken a statement in October 2008, the one that
13 they are using now. I believe that defence of accused persons is one of
14 the basic postulates of criminal proceedings; however, since the
15 statements you gave and the interview you gave in 2000, and in the
16 proceedings in 2003 before the Belgrade
17 these documents seem to be insufficient, I am compelled to take you back
18 to the time you most certainly wish to forget and to put a few questions
19 to you.
20 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, before I start with
21 my questions, I would like to draw your attention to a particular matter.
22 We have admitted into evidence the transcript from the hearing held in
23 Belgrade
24 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: We cannot follow the
25 numbers at this speed.
Page 1902
1 JUDGE PARKER: I think, Mr. Djurdjic, you're referring to what is
2 now Exhibit P375, the transcript of the proceedings in Belgrade
3 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] I do apologise. It says 375 here,
4 yes. So these are 38 pages that we have admitted. I would just like to
5 indicate that on the 10th of July, at the very beginning,
6 Bogujevci, Fatos, the witness's cousin, made a statement; and the
7 witness's statement is from page 8 through 13, the one that I found in
8 the documentation that I received from the Belgrade court. So from page
9 1 to 13 we have the witness statements at the main hearing that was held
10 there, and those are the people who testify here too. I believe that
11 that is the only portion that should be admitted into evidence because
12 these are two witnesses that we are hearing over here.
13 As for the 9th of July, after page 13 -- I mean after the
14 witness's statement, I mean Ms. Saranda's statement, that is not relevant
15 for these proceedings because these witnesses will not be showing up
16 here. So that's the only thing I wish to indicate at this point.
17 JUDGE PARKER: If there 's been any misunderstanding, the only
18 exhibit that the Chamber intended was the transcript of the evidence of
19 this witness in the proceedings in Belgrade, and if there has been some
20 more extensive transcript included, that will not form part of our
21 exhibit. It is the evidence of this witness given in Belgrade which, for
22 this purpose, becomes part of the 92 ter admitted evidence.
23 MS. KRAVETZ: If I may add, Your Honour, we've only uploaded the
24 portion that refers to this witness, and in the English we've redacted
25 the paragraph that is -- precedes her testimony and the one that
Page 1903
1 continues in order to only have that portion in the e-court system.
2 JUDGE PARKER: So I think your concern, you needn't worry about
3 that, Mr. Djurdjic. We only have the transcript of the present witness.
4 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I said
5 this because this is the document that I received, 38 pages long. So I
6 wish to indicate that to you. If matters are clear, then I think that we
7 can move on.
8 Q. Ms. Saranda, could you please tell me, when was your memory the
9 best, when you first made your statement in Manchester, or at the trial
10 in Belgrade
11 A. Well, my memory's clear of what happened, you know, even now --
12 you know, of course in 2000 and 2003 it was closer to the time, and now
13 it has passed -- some time has passed, but that doesn't mean that I
14 forgot things that happened on that day.
15 Q. Ms. Saranda, we are not bringing into question what you are
16 testifying about; however, in your statement from October 2008 there are
17 many new things that you had not spoken about before that. That is why I
18 wish to clarify certain matters. As for the actual event, incident, what
19 you've been repeating all along, I really am not going to put any
20 questions to you. What grade were you in March 1999 at school?
21 A. I was on year 8, just the end of high school, in the Kosovan way,
22 the way the system was there at school.
23 Q. You said the system was organised there. Was this a special
24 organisation or were these schools that were attended by all?
25 A. Well, no, the -- I mean, I don't know how the system was. You
Page 1904
1 know, I -- I was a kid at that time and I never questioned it. But we --
2 there were separate schools. There were the schools where just the
3 Albanians went and there were schools where the Serbians went. The
4 school that I was actually supposed to go to was taken away from us, so
5 we had to go to another school, and that -- that school that was taken
6 was made especially for Serbian kids.
7 Q. Could you please tell me, when was this school taken away, as you
8 had put it? Did you ever attend that particular school?
9 A. Yes, when I started my first year, so I was around 6 years old.
10 I remember just before starting school going there, and then after that,
11 that's when it was taken away and we had to attend this other school.
12 Q. Tell me, where was this other school?
13 A. The one -- there's -- on the first -- from year 1 to year 4 we
14 were moved to a smaller school which was supposed to be kind of like, you
15 know, kindergarten school, there was that kind of age, and it's in --
16 it's in the main part of the town where the river -- the river is. It's
17 close to the town hall. And then from that school, after I finished year
18 four, we were moved to another school so that other kids could use the
19 other school.
20 Q. All right. Tell me, please, the building where you were up to
21 year 4, whose house was that? What was that house?
22 A. No, that was a school. It was like a, you know, for kids who go
23 to those schools before they start the first year. So, you know -- I
24 don't know, like a nursery, but it was -- it was a school. It wasn't
25 anyone's house.
Page 1905
1 Q. I understand what you're saying, that's the kindergarten. But
2 when you started school, could you please tell me where was that building
3 and who did that building belong to when you started school, year 1?
4 A. The building was, as I said, close to the river, which is the
5 main part of the town. As to who the building was run by, I don't know.
6 I never questioned that.
7 Q. Do you remember who your teacher was?
8 A. Yes, I do.
9 Q. Could you please tell me your teacher's name and was that the
10 teacher of all the children who attended that school?
11 A. No, her name was Fatima
12 and there was other teachers who had other classes.
13 Q. If I understood things correctly, it was a mono-ethnic school,
14 the one that you attended?
15 A. Sorry, I don't understand the question.
16 Q. Were there any children at that school that belonged to other
17 ethnic groups apart from the Albanian ethnic community?
18 A. No, it was just Albanians.
19 Q. Was any other language spoken at the school, apart from Albanian?
20 A. No, it was just Albanian.
21 Q. Thank you. Do you know how that school was financed?
22 A. No, I was a kid, you know, I never questioned it, how it was
23 financed. That didn't really interest me at that time.
24 Q. Thank you. But you said to me that the school was in that
25 building. Was the school there before you started school, before you
Page 1906
1 started year 1; and how was it that you knew that the school was there?
2 A. Yeah, the school was already there. But, as I said, that school
3 was used for children before starting the first year. But because the
4 other school had been taken away, so that was the only option that we
5 had, that was the only school that we could go to.
6 Q. Thank you. Tell me, where was the other school then?
7 A. The other school is -- I don't know how to describe it. It's --
8 the other school that was supposed to be like a secondary school. So
9 the -- I don't know how to describe it really. As from the main town and
10 there's another main street where my house is, so the school's further up
11 past my house, so further up.
12 Q. Was this a public building, the one that you attended school at?
13 A. Yes, there were two buildings. We were only allowed to use one
14 of the buildings.
15 Q. Thank you. And at the other building there were other children
16 who went to school in a different shift; am I right?
17 A. No, the other building, that was empty. That wasn't used.
18 Q. Could you please tell me what the name of the street that you
19 lived in was?
20 A. At that time it was called Kosancic Ivana.
21 Q. You first said that in October 2008 when you made your statement
22 then. How did you find out that that was the name of the street?
23 A. Because I used to live around the street, and I must have asked
24 my parents or -- I don't know, I don't exactly remember how I found out
25 that was the street, but I used to live in that street.
Page 1907
1 Q. Well, certainly you lived there, but in 2000, when you gave that
2 interview, you didn't know the name of the street. You knew the new name
3 of the street because you were visiting Podujevo with some other people.
4 A. So maybe I must have asked my father how the street was called.
5 Q. Thank you. Am I right if I say that Enver Duriqi's family came
6 to stay with you because of the conflict that the KLA had with the army
7 and police in the village?
8 A. I don't know anything about that. All I knew was that he came to
9 the town because there was a lot more danger around the villages. That's
10 all I know.
11 Q. Thank you. Do you know anything about the Kosovo Liberation
12 Army?
13 A. Of course, I've -- I did hear about them, so I knew they existed.
14 Q. Do you know what they did and how they operated and where they
15 operated?
16 A. No. You know, I was a child at that time, so really -- you know,
17 information like that wouldn't really be given to me and I don't really
18 know anything about that.
19 Q. I'm absolutely certain of that; however, I do have to ask you
20 about paragraph 16 of your statement, dated the 7th of October, 2008
21 says here:
22 "A short time before the commencement of the NATO air campaign,
23 the family of Enver Duriqi, a friend of my father, moved into the third
24 house in our compound because they felt that their lives were threatened
25 in their home village Obranqa, in Podujevo Municipality, where fighting
Page 1908
1 had broken out between the KLA and Serbian forces."
2 A. I don't actually remember ever saying that.
3 Q. Thank you. Thank you, Ms. Saranda.
4 A. I don't think I ever said anything about that because I don't
5 know anything about that. I know there was -- as I said, there was
6 bombings and, you know, it was said that it was -- you know, a lot more
7 were going on in the villages, but -- you know, I never said that I -- it
8 was between KLA or, you know, the Serbian forces. I just said that they
9 came into the town because they thought that their lives were in a lot of
10 danger there, but not necessarily that there was these fightings.
11 Q. Well, that is the problem, Ms. Saranda. This statement, as it is
12 written here - and you said at the beginning of our hearing today that
13 you accept it as your own, as the truth, and nothing but the truth - and
14 this is what has been written into evidence --
15 A. Can I see the part that you're referring to. Which number was it
16 again?
17 Q. Of course. In English it is page -- paragraph 16. The English
18 version is page 3, paragraph 16. You can read it of course.
19 A. No, I don't remember actually saying that.
20 Q. May I conclude that these were not your words and that this is
21 not something that you had said yourself?
22 A. I don't remember saying specifically that.
23 Q. Thank you. Who did you know from the Serb community in Podujevo
24 at that time? All my questions addressed to you today have to do with
25 that period of time. If I'm going to ask you anything outside that
Page 1909
1 period of time, I will specifically say so.
2 A. There were some of our neighbours that I knew, and one of them
3 used to work at the hospital as well.
4 Q. Was it one single person that you knew who was an ethnic Serb --
5 A. Just a family that I knew, but the lady, I knew her more.
6 Q. Well, you see, you say here in your statement that relations
7 between the Albanians and Serb families at the time, I mean -- well, were
8 very good. Did you say that?
9 A. Yeah, we were fine with our neighbours. We didn't have any
10 problems. We spoke to them.
11 Q. I do apologise. With one family, right?
12 A. Yeah. Well, that's the family I knew. I think my family knew
13 other people, but that's the ones I saw the most and knew.
14 Q. Very well. One family then. Thank you.
15 Do you know when the NATO air campaign started in 1999?
16 A. It was in March.
17 Q. Do you know the date?
18 A. As far as I remember, it was the 24th of March.
19 Q. Thank you. Do you know what the targets involved were, what
20 targets were engaged by NATO when the war started? In your statement, in
21 paragraph 17, you say, and I quote:
22 "On the 24th of March, 1999, NATO commenced an air campaign in
23 Serbia
24 including Kosovo."
25 Are those your words, Ms. Saranda?
Page 1910
1 A. Sorry, I misunderstood the question. I thought you were asking
2 something more specific than that. So, yeah, that's what I said.
3 Q. Well, tell me then, what were these certain targets that NATO was
4 supposed to bomb that you are aware of?
5 A. As I said, I don't know the specific targets that they had.
6 Q. Well, that's why I'm asking you whether this is your own sentence
7 or not, since this statement was made and has been admitted into
8 evidence, that NATO has certain targets that were bombed throughout the
9 country, including Kosovo. If you said that, could you please tell me
10 what the certain targets were; and if you did not say this, then please
11 say that you did not say it.
12 A. Well, you know, either NATO was bombing Yugoslavia, so that
13 included obviously Kosovo, but I don't know specific targets of, you
14 know, where the bombings were. You know, I didn't know they were going
15 to bomb this or they were going to bomb that. I know, you know, I know
16 that they were bombing the -- as Yugoslavia
17 specific targets.
18 Q. Thank you. Thank you. Although you've already explained this,
19 in paragraph 17 you say that on one particular day you saw a column of
20 tanks going through town. Did I understand you correctly when you were
21 answering Ms. Kravetz's questions today?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Thank you. Ms. Saranda, could you please tell me whether you
24 make a distinction between the police and the army?
25 A. Well, the police used to have the blue uniform, so when the --
Page 1911
1 from -- the way I understood, it was the army who would have the
2 camouflage and so -- but the police used to have the blue uniform.
3 Q. Thank you. Then in paragraph 18 you say that:
4 "In the weeks building up to the NATO air campaign, many ...
5 families started to move into ... Podujevo ..."
6 Tell me -- actually, further on it says that:
7 " ... Serbian forces had been burning houses and killing people
8 in the villages."
9 Tell me, you had heard about that from someone, right, this is
10 not your very own knowledge, what you say in this paragraph?
11 A. Yes, and there was -- that was on the news all the time as well.
12 Q. Thank you. What were the news that you were watching?
13 A. From what -- I can't remember really which one it was.
14 Q. Thank you.
15 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I do apologise, but I
16 think that the time would be right for the technical break.
17 JUDGE PARKER: Well, if you feel you need to continue after the
18 break, we -- is that the case? You have more to go?
19 MR. DJURDJIC: Well, I have about 10 or 15 minutes, not more than
20 that, Your Hounour.
21 JUDGE PARKER: Well, we will, I think, have the break now. The
22 witness has been here for an hour and a half and would appreciate it; and
23 we will resume at 11.00. Thank you.
24 --- Recess taken at 10.29 a.m.
25 --- On resuming at 11.03 a.m.
Page 1912
1 [The witness takes the stand]
2 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Djurdjic.
3 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
4 Q. Ms. Bogujevci, can we continue, please. Am I right if I say that
5 after the NATO air-strikes began there was no water and electricity in
6 Podujevo anymore?
7 A. Yes. The electricity sometimes would come on just for a little
8 bit and then it would go off again.
9 Q. Thank you. And electricity would come and go for all the
10 inhabitants of the town; am I right?
11 A. I think so. I mean, once the NATO bombing started we were inside
12 of the house, so we didn't go out to see other people.
13 Q. Thank you. Am I right when I say that you don't speak or
14 understand the Serbian language?
15 A. No -- I used to know like a few words, like -- but not actually
16 speak it or understand it properly.
17 Q. Thank you. Am I right if I say that fortunately you could use
18 what little you knew when you were hospitalised in Pristina?
19 A. Yes, also because I was there for three months so, you know, I
20 picked up on some of the words that the nurses would use.
21 Q. Thank you. In paragraph 25 you say that a police car stopped in
22 front of your house. Could you please tell me, how were you able to tell
23 that it is a police car, and could you describe it for me, please.
24 A. Which paragraph?
25 Q. I have it in my notes that it's paragraph 25.
Page 1913
1 A. All right. Well, it was described as a police car, so in
2 Albanian they said autoblinda, so it's a police car. But I didn't see
3 the car. I was told that the car stopped in front of the house.
4 Q. Thank you, Ms. Bogujevci. And do you know what an AK-47 is?
5 A. Yeah, I do know.
6 Q. When did you learn that, could you please tell us?
7 A. I can't remember exactly. But when I described as it looked from
8 the guy who started shooting at us, then I was told that it was an AK-47,
9 but I can't remember exactly when that was.
10 Q. Thank you. I just want to state then that these were not your
11 words but that this was stated, but do you know at all what automatic
12 weapons are?
13 A. Yeah, but not, like, specifically with names.
14 Q. Well, do you use expert terms, technical terms, like that in your
15 everyday speech, automatic weapons or so, or did somebody rephrase your
16 words, what you actually went to say? Was it put into words by somebody
17 else?
18 A. Not that -- I described the gun, and from my description that was
19 an AK-47, so I learned that it was an AK-47. So I know that that's the
20 gun now, but I don't know the other kinds exactly, all the names that
21 they have.
22 Q. That's quite sufficient. Thank you.
23 Am I right when I say that this terrible event lasted for a short
24 time and that you received medical treatment immediately?
25 A. Well, after the shooting, as I said, after I got up and I saw my
Page 1914
1 family and then when the other soldiers that came in with -- they had the
2 different uniform, and they took my cousins and I to the hospital in
3 Pristina. So I was in the hospital until June.
4 Q. Thank you. You mention a person who assisted you. Did you learn
5 that this was a physician who was a police doctor? I think you mentioned
6 that he had a blue overcoat. I'm not sure now.
7 A. Sorry, I don't know who you mean.
8 Q. The person who assisted you, who was first at your side. Do you
9 know that this was a police doctor; or if you didn't know that at that
10 time, was it something that you learned subsequently?
11 A. No. The soldiers that took us to the hospital, I don't know
12 anything about them. I didn't know whether they were any doctors -- so I
13 didn't know anything about them.
14 Q. Could you please tell me, do you remember a person wearing a blue
15 overcoat that actually assisted you or aided you?
16 A. I just remember the -- there were, I think, two guys who pulled
17 me out from the bodies, and they had the uniform. At this present in
18 time I can't remember anyone with a blue coat.
19 Q. Thank you. Do you remember a blue vehicle that was the first
20 vehicle that you were brought to?
21 A. I mean, I don't know the outside of the vehicle, but from the
22 inside of the vehicle it just looked like kind of the -- an army kind of
23 ambulance probably because of the -- there was some medication in the
24 car, so I just assumed it was a, you know, some sort of ambulance.
25 Q. Yes, well that was my next question, but I didn't really
Page 1915
1 understand this properly. I read several of your statements. You were
2 first taken to a vehicle, which was a police vehicle, and you said it was
3 blue; and then you were transported in this car that you now told us
4 about.
5 A. I was -- I was sent straight into one of the vehicles. If I
6 could see, please, where -- from where you're referring to the blue
7 vehicle. I was only sent into the one vehicle.
8 Q. Thank you. Did you learn that this terrible event was the only
9 event of that kind that happened in this short period of time in
10 Podujevo?
11 A. Well, at that time I didn't really know what was happening, but
12 afterwards -- I mean, I -- there were other people who died and --
13 friends of mine, but they didn't die in Podujevo, so I don't -- I don't
14 remember really -- at this time I don't remember if there were any other
15 massacres that took place.
16 Q. Thank you. Am I right and did you learn that the on-site
17 investigation team from the police immediately went to the scene, as did
18 the investigating judge who carried out the on-site investigation?
19 A. I'm sorry. Could you repeat the question again.
20 Q. Am I right if I say that this is something that you learned
21 subsequently over the course of the years that a crime-scene
22 investigation team of the police went immediately to the crime scene, as
23 did the investigating, and that an on-site investigation was carried out
24 and there was a photo file produced containing a number of photographs of
25 the crime scene?
Page 1916
1 A. No, I didn't know that they went immediately after it happened.
2 Q. I don't know if the interpretation is correct. It's not whether
3 they went or -- but whether they came. Did you learn --
4 A. Oh, no, I don't know whether anyone went -- went in after it
5 happened. I don't know if I understand the question right, but as far as
6 I -- but I don't know of anyone that went in after it happened and
7 took -- did the investigation. I don't know.
8 Q. Thank you. Let me try and rephrase the question. In the course
9 of the trial in Belgrade
10 scene, the investigation report, and other documents produced that
11 pertained to the event that you testified about, and then carried out the
12 identification?
13 A. I remember carrying out the identification. I can't remember
14 seeing any pictures of -- after it happened at this moment. I can't
15 remember.
16 Q. And do you remember that a sketch was made of the scene, what you
17 showed us today on the photographs, that there was a sketch, an outline,
18 of the compound?
19 A. I don't -- at this moment in time, I don't remember seeing the
20 sketch at the trial there.
21 Q. Thank you. Could you please tell me, you do have your medical
22 records about the injuries that you had sustained?
23 A. Yeah, there's medical records.
24 Q. Thank you. It's a record from the Pristina Hospital
25 documents that you got in Manchester, UK
Page 1917
1 A. And there's definitely documents from Manchester, but I'm not too
2 sure whether there are any documents from -- from Pristina. I'm not too
3 sure about that. But there are documents -- there are records from
4 Manchester
5 Q. Did you hand over the medical records to the Prosecution?
6 A. At the -- I'm not too sure at that time if -- if I did send any.
7 It's just because these things usually would go through the contact with
8 the doctor, so I'm not too sure if they did take any documents.
9 Q. But you will agree with me that no medical records were shown to
10 you today about your injuries and the course of treatment and your
11 current health?
12 A. Not today, no.
13 Q. Thank you, Ms. Bogujevci. I have no further questions for you.
14 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, thank you very much.
15 This completes my cross-examination.
16 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Djurdjic.
17 Ms. Kravetz, re-examination?
18 MS. KRAVETZ: No, Your Honour. I have no further questions for
19 this witness.
20 [Trial Chamber confers]
21 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, the question of the video was deferred. In
22 view of the absence of specific questioning, the Chamber will receive the
23 video as an exhibit.
24 THE REGISTRAR: That will be P00380, Your Honours.
25 JUDGE PARKER: Ms. Bogujevci, you will be pleased to know that
Page 1918
1 the questioning of you has concluded. We have your written statements
2 and your previous transcript of testimony, as well as what you've been
3 able to add today. The Chamber would like to thank you indeed for your
4 now two visits to The Hague
5 THE WITNESS: That's okay.
6 JUDGE PARKER: -- and for the assistance that you've been able to
7 give us with your specific testimony. We thank you very much and wish
8 you well. The court officer will now allow you to leave.
9 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
10 [The witness withdrew]
11 JUDGE PARKER: Ms. Gopalan, I understand before it is witness
12 comes in there may be a mattered you wish to raise.
13 MS. GOPALAN: Just a very quick matter, Your Honours. I'd like
14 to add a document to the 65 ter exhibit list. This is 65 ter number
15 05237. It's a supplemental witness information sheet or supplemental
16 information sheet that was produced by the next witness during the
17 proofing session last week. It attaches a diagram that was prepared by
18 the witness that refers to a number of locations he identifies in his
19 statement. This document has been disclosed to the Defence, and they
20 were notified of our intention to use it with this witness, and it's in
21 relation to using this document with this witness that I seek Your
22 Honour's leave.
23 JUDGE PARKER: Am I to understand it was a diagram the witness
24 prepared last week?
25 MS. GOPALAN: That's right.
Page 1919
1 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Djurdjic, any concern about that?
2 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, it is correct, we
3 received the translation of the additional information and a diagram that
4 is appended to it; but I believe, since the witness is now here, if it
5 was necessary to do a diagram then Ms. Gopalan could have led him through
6 it and he could have drawn the diagram here. Now, we have this diagram,
7 the date is the 3rd of March, and it was done and it was signed by the
8 witness. I do believe that it is a diagram done by him.
9 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
10 [Trial Chamber confers]
11 JUDGE PARKER: The diagram will be added to the Rule 65 ter
12 exhibit list, Ms. Gopalan.
13 Are you ready now to call the witness?
14 MS. GOPALAN: Yes, I am.
15 JUDGE PARKER: I think that process is underway.
16 [The witness entered court]
17 JUDGE PARKER: Good afternoon -- oh, good morning.
18 THE WITNESS: Good morning.
19 JUDGE PARKER: Would you please read aloud the affirmation that
20 is shown to you on the card.
21 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the
22 truth, and nothing but the truth.
23 WITNESS: FATOS BOGUJEVCI
24 Examination by Ms. Gopalan:
25 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. Please sit down.
Page 1920
1 I believe Ms. Gopalan has some questions for you.
2 Q. Good morning, Mr. Bogujevci. Would you please state your full
3 name for the record.
4 A. My name is Fatos Bogujevci.
5 Q. And how old are you now, Mr. Bogujevci?
6 A. I am now 22 years old.
7 Q. When were you born and where were you born?
8 A. I was born on the 16th of July, 1986, in Podujevo Kosovo.
9 Q. And where do you live now, Mr. Bogujevci?
10 A. I live in Manchester, England
11 Q. And for how long have you lived in Manchester?
12 A. I've lived there for nine years, almost ten.
13 Q. Mr. Bogujevci, in May 2000, did you provide a video interview for
14 the ICTY, to a Simon Matthews in Manchester?
15 A. Yes, I did.
16 Q. Have you recently had the opportunity to review the transcript of
17 this video interview?
18 A. Yes, I have.
19 Q. And having reviewed this transcript, are you satisfied that the
20 transcript is true and accurate to the best of your knowledge and belief?
21 A. Yes.
22 MS. GOPALAN: Your Honours, this transcript is
23 65 ter number 05125, and I seek leave to admit it into evidence.
24 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
25 THE REGISTRAR: That will be P00381, Your Honours.
Page 1921
1 MS. GOPALAN:
2 Q. In July 2003, did you testify in the trial of Sasa Cvjetan in the
3 district court in Belgrade
4 A. Yes, I did.
5 Q. Have you had the opportunity to recently review the transcript of
6 your testimony in Belgrade
7 A. Yes, I have.
8 Q. And if you were asked the same questions that you were asked
9 during the trial in Belgrade
10 A. Yes, I would.
11 Q. Thank you.
12 MS. GOPALAN: This is 65 ter number 5126, and I'd like these --
13 this document to be admitted, please.
14 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
15 THE REGISTRAR: That will be P00382, Your Honours.
16 MS. GOPALAN:
17 Q. Mr. Bogujevci, in October last year did you provide a statement
18 to the OTP?
19 A. In Belgrade
20 Q. No --
21 A. Oh, no, sorry. Yes, yes, I did.
22 Q. You did, okay. And have you had the opportunity to review this
23 statement recently?
24 A. I have, yes.
25 Q. And I believe that you indicated that there was certain changes
Page 1922
1 you would like to make to this statement; is that correct?
2 A. Yes.
3 MS. GOPALAN: With the usher's assistance, may I hand the
4 statement over to the witness, and this is 65 ter number 5124.
5 Q. Mr. Bogujevci, may I take you to paragraph 16 of your statement.
6 Was there any change that you wish to make in that paragraph?
7 A. Only on the name of the village, which is spelled O-b-r-a-n-q-a,
8 so without the A before the Q.
9 Q. Okay. Thank you very much. And can we also go to paragraph 41
10 of your statement. Was there any change that you wish to make to that
11 paragraph?
12 A. Well, when I said I just saw the man's general appearance, I just
13 meant that I saw him for a few minutes. I didn't concentrate on his face
14 or any features of his face.
15 Q. Thank you. And now having reviewed your statement and made these
16 changes, are you satisfied that the changes made in this statement is
17 true and correct to the best of your knowledge and belief?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Thank you.
20 MS. GOPALAN: I'd like to tender this exhibit, Your Honour, it's
21 65 ter number 5124.
22 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
23 THE REGISTRAR: That will be P00383, Your Honours.
24 MS. GOPALAN: I would now read the in-court summary for
25 Mr. Bogujevci's evidence.
Page 1923
1 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
2 MS. GOPALAN: The witness is a survivor of a massacre that took
3 place in the town of Podujevo
4 the weeks preceding the commencement of the NATO bombing, there was an
5 increase in police and military presence on the streets of Podujevo.
6 When the NATO bombing began, the witness and his extended family were
7 staying in their family compound in Podujevo. Another family, the
8 Duriqis, were also staying in a house at the rear of the compound.
9 On the 28th of March, 1999, an armoured personnel carrier stopped
10 outside the family compound. Fearing for their safety, the witness's
11 family moved to the house where the Duriqis were staying. At that time,
12 the witness's family included only women and children, as the men had
13 gone into hiding. The witness describes that on that day persons whom he
14 described as soldiers entered into the compound and eventually ordered
15 the group into a neighbour's courtyard. Once in the courtyard, the
16 soldiers opened fire on the group, killing 14 persons, all women and
17 children.
18 The witness and his four cousins survived the massacre. The
19 witness also describes the killing of an elderly male member of the
20 Duriqi family and of a neighbour.
21 That's the end of the summary.
22 Q. I now have a few questions on your statement for you,
23 Mr. Bogujevci. Before we move on to the 28th of March, let's start with
24 where you were living at that time, in March 1999. Could you tell us how
25 old you were then.
Page 1924
1 A. Then I was 12 years old.
2 Q. Okay.
3 A. Just about to turn 13.
4 Q. Okay. Thank you.
5 MS. GOPALAN: I'd like to call up the 65 ter number 5137.
6 Q. That should appear on your screen shortly.
7 MS. GOPALAN: And page 2 of that document, please.
8 My apologies, I've given the wrong number. It's 5237. Could we
9 go to the second page, please. Could we enlarge the diagram on the
10 second page. Thank you.
11 Q. Mr. Bogujevci, do you recognise this diagram?
12 A. Yes, I do.
13 Q. What is it?
14 A. It's a diagram that I drew of the compounds and the streets
15 nearby our house.
16 Q. Thank you. In your statement you describe a number of buildings
17 in the compound of your house. This is at paragraph 10 to 13 of your
18 statement. Could you tell us what the building marked number 1 is.
19 MS. GOPALAN: If it's possible to zoom in further to the diagram.
20 THE WITNESS: I can see it.
21 MS. GOPALAN:
22 Q. You can see it. Thank you.
23 A. The building marked as number 1 is where we used to live at that
24 time and where our house is still.
25 Q. And who did you live in --
Page 1925
1 A. I lived there with my family, which was my mom, dad, three
2 sisters, and one brother, and also with my grandma -- with my
3 grandmother, and also with my uncle's family, which was my uncle, his
4 wife, and his three children.
5 Q. Thank you. And how about the building marked number 2, which I
6 believe in the diagram is located to the left of number 1?
7 A. That was my dad's uncle's house.
8 Q. Thank you. And in paragraph 16 of your statement you mention a
9 family -- a friend of your father, Enver Duriqi, moving into the third
10 house in your compound.
11 A. Yeah.
12 Q. Where -- is that third house visible on your diagram?
13 A. It's the one marked as number 3.
14 Q. Am I correct that it's located at the end of the compound with --
15 A. Yes, yes.
16 Q. Thank you, Mr. Bogujevci. I'd now like to move on to the day in
17 question, which is the 28th of March, 1999. You refer to persons in your
18 house at that day, and that's in paragraph 23 of your statement, and you
19 say that your family and Safet's family decided that it would be safer
20 for you to move to Fahrije's house in the compound next door. Now, in
21 addition to your family and Safet's family, who else was in your house
22 that day?
23 A. There was my dad's aunt with her daughter-in-law, which had come
24 from a nearby village as the same reasons as the Duriqi family.
25 Q. Could you tell us what their names were?
Page 1926
1 A. Nefise Lugaliju and Fezrije Lugaliju.
2 Q. Thank you. In paragraph 23 you say at about 2 a.m. your family,
3 Safet's family, and Nefise and Fezrije moved to the next house in the
4 compound, you collected your bags, and walked to your rear garden to a
5 gap between the wall that divided the two properties. And at this gap
6 you heard and saw gun-shots coming from the roof of the police station.
7 MS. GOPALAN: If we could now turn to the diagram on the screen.
8 Q. Could you mark on the diagram this gap in the wall that you
9 mention in your statement. The court usher will help you.
10 A. The gap was there.
11 Q. Thank you. Could you put the letter A just beside the gap.
12 A. [Marks]
13 MS. GOPALAN: For the record, the witness has placed a letter A
14 beside the dot marked by the witness to indicate the gap between the wall
15 that divided the two properties he refers to in paragraph 23.
16 Q. You also say that at this gap you saw gun-shots coming from the
17 roof of the police station.
18 Is the police station visible in this diagram?
19 A. Yes, it's marked as number 6.
20 Q. Thank you. And did you see who was firing?
21 A. No, I didn't, because it was dark.
22 Q. Okay. Just before we move on, you mentioned that that the
23 Lugalijus had moved to your family's house. Can you tell us why they had
24 moved there, Nefise and Fezrije?
25 A. Because at that time it was getting quite dangerous in the
Page 1927
1 villages near and around our town, and everyone felt it was safer within
2 the town.
3 Q. And where had they come from?
4 A. They came from a village nearby called Shuria.
5 Q. Thank you. Would you mind spelling that for us, Mr. Bogujevci?
6 A. Where could I spell it?
7 Q. You can just tell us verbally?
8 A. All right. It's S-k-u-r-i-a -- S-h, sorry.
9 Q. Thank you. Now I'd like to move on to paragraph 26 of your
10 statement. By this stage you had already returned --
11 MS. GOPALAN: I'm going to use it again. I'll come back to it.
12 Q. So on paragraph 26 of your statement, you'd already returned to
13 your own home. It was approximately 7.00 a.m. on the
14 28th of March, 1999, and you say you heard activity outside the compound
15 of your house in the street. Did you see anything on the street,
16 Mr. Bogujevci?
17 A. Well, at this time everyone was panicking, so everyone was just
18 moving around the house. Someone -- because we had dark curtains on the
19 windows and I remember just looking outside for just a split second, and
20 then it was when I saw the police vehicle and a couple of soldiers, as I
21 say, around the street.
22 Q. Do you remember how many soldiers you saw?
23 A. I cannot say for sure because, as I said, it was only for a split
24 second.
25 Q. And then you say at approximately 8.00 it was decided it would be
Page 1928
1 safer in the house of my father's uncle at the rear of ours in the same
2 courtyard. Why was it decided that it would be safer in your uncle's
3 house?
4 A. Because when we saw and heard soldiers in the street, the house
5 which is located at the end of the courtyard is further away from the
6 main street. So we thought it might just be easier and safer for us.
7 Q. And --
8 A. It was decided -- sorry, it was decided by our parents because at
9 that time we were only kids, so we only did what -- all the stuff they
10 told us.
11 Q. Okay. And which house was that that you moved to in the diagram?
12 A. That was house number 3.
13 Q. Okay. And previously when you were at your aunt, Fahrije's
14 house, is that on the diagram as well?
15 A. Yeah, that is marked as number 4.
16 Q. Okay. Now, when you went to the house marked number 3, your
17 father's uncle's house, you say that there were other -- another family
18 in that house, these were members of the Duriqi family. Did you know
19 them?
20 A. I knew them previously because Enver Duriqi was a close friend of
21 my dad's. So I met them a few times, yes.
22 Q. And why had they moved into this house?
23 A. For the same reason, again, because they used to live in a
24 village nearby and there was a lot of fighting going on in that village.
25 So they thought it would be safer for them if they came to that house.
Page 1929
1 My dad offered them to stay there because he wanted to help him.
2 Q. Okay. Thank you. And then you say in the next paragraph, that's
3 paragraph 28 that about an hour later you heard the sound of shooting and
4 glass breaking and you saw soldiers entering the courtyard and the houses
5 around. How many soldiers did you see entering the neighbour's courtyard
6 and the houses?
7 A. I cannot say for sure, but I remember one or two that that -- as
8 soon as we left the house, one or two walked in and searched the house
9 and then they came back out. There was one that searched us and another
10 two, I would say, or three which was standing next to us.
11 Q. And do you remember what these soldiers were wearing?
12 A. They were wearing camouflage uniform in the green and brown.
13 Q. Thank you. I'll now take you to paragraph 35 of your statement,
14 and at this stage the group you're with had tried to leave the house, and
15 you'd been stopped by the soldiers, you'd mentioned, who searched some of
16 you, and you were then directed to a neighbour's courtyard. Before you
17 move on, could you tell us who was in the group with you?
18 A. So it was my family, Safet's family, the Duriqi family, and the
19 Lugaliju, my dad's aunt with her daughter-in-law.
20 Q. Okay. Those are the two individuals you say who joined you from
21 a -- from the nearby village?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Okay. Thank you. At paragraph 35 you say your mother was
24 separated from the group and you were directed by a man, who you describe
25 as the leader, out of the courtyard and into the street quite near to the
Page 1930
1 police station. Do you remember how far from the police station you were
2 at this stage?
3 A. I can't say for sure, but you can -- it's not -- there wasn't a
4 long distance.
5 Q. Okay.
6 A. I can't give you an estimate.
7 Q. That's fine. And you say that once you were out on the street
8 there were many soldiers there. Again, do you remember how many soldiers
9 you saw there?
10 A. No, because there was so many of them, there is no way I could
11 have -- I could give you a rough number.
12 Q. Okay. And you also mentioned seeing Selman Gashi on the street.
13 Who is Selman Gashi?
14 A. Selman Gashi was our neighbour.
15 Q. And if we can go back to the diagram again.
16 You say that you saw Selman Gashi standing outside, near a coffee
17 shop. Is that coffee shop visible on this diagram?
18 A. Yeah, it's marked as number 7.
19 Q. Okay. And where was the group you were with standing on the
20 street?
21 A. We were -- we -- should I mark it on this --
22 Q. Yes, please. Thank you. If you could put a number 2.
23 A. Okay. It was between the path and that coffee shop --
24 Q. Okay --
25 A. -- which was just about here.
Page 1931
1 Q. Okay. Thank you. So number 2 is where you were standing with
2 the group?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Okay. What happened to Selman Gashi?
5 A. When we were standing there, one of the soldiers was talking to
6 Hamdi Duriqi, and then he -- as far as I know, he ordered him to be taken
7 into the coffee shop. And Selman Duriqi [sic] was taken in with him, and
8 that's when we heard a few shots. And I never saw Selman Gashi again or
9 Hamdi Duriqi.
10 Q. Just to clarify, were Selman Gashi and Hamdi Duriqi taken into
11 the coffee shop --
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. -- marked number 7?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Okay. And you say that you never saw both of them again?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Do you remember how old Selman Gashi was at that time?
18 A. I don't -- he was quite old. I don't know what age to give you.
19 Q. Okay. How --
20 A. But I would say -- I'd say over 50.
21 Q. Over 50, okay. And how about Hamdi Duriqi?
22 A. I would say about the same.
23 Q. Okay.
24 A. So older.
25 Q. So you were then out with your family and extended family and the
Page 1932
1 remaining members of the Duriqi family and two members of the Lugalijus
2 on the street, and you say at paragraph 37 after you were there for about
3 five to ten minutes you were directed back into the courtyard.
4 Could you tell us what happened after you were directed back into
5 the courtyard?
6 A. Yeah. As soon as we heard the shots within the coffee shop, we
7 were directed through the path which led from the street into the
8 courtyard of our neighbours. When we entered the yard, the courtyard, we
9 were stopped by one of the soldiers which I thought -- and I felt that
10 was in charge there. And then he asked Fezrije Lugaliju about the lorry
11 which was parked close to that yard, and we could just only see the top
12 of the lorry.
13 Q. Okay. If I could just stop you there. You mentioned that you
14 were directed through the path, that you were directed back in from the
15 street back into the courtyard. Could you tell us who directed you back?
16 A. Well, the -- as I said before, there was a lot of soldiers
17 around, but I remember the leader, the guy that I thought was the leader,
18 leading the group, our group. So we just walked behind him into the --
19 back into the courtyard.
20 Q. Okay. Why did you think he was the leader?
21 A. Because, as I remember, he had a belt as well which had a few
22 knifes on him. He was the one that did most of the talking, and I don't
23 know, he just gave me that instinct that he was the leader.
24 Q. Okay. Do you remember his attire, what he was wearing?
25 A. Well, the same as the others who were in our courtyard when we
Page 1933
1 left, which was the camouflage uniform, in green and brown.
2 Q. Okay. I'd now like you to have a look at the diagram on the
3 screen again. Would you be able to place a number 3 on the courtyard
4 that you were directed into?
5 A. [Marks]
6 Q. Thank you. And at paragraph 39 you describe seeing your mother
7 across the yard. Could you tell us what happened to her, please.
8 A. As soon as we entered the courtyard, my -- I saw my mother
9 coming -- taken out of a shed, like a shed, which was within that
10 courtyard --
11 Q. Is the shed marked?
12 A. Yes -- well, no, it's not marked on the diagram.
13 Q. Could you put a number 4 as to where that shed was located.
14 A. I'm not -- the scale might not be right, but it's about here.
15 Q. Okay. We'll bear that in mind. Thank you.
16 A. And then -- she was crying at that time, and she was dragged by
17 her neck. At this time we -- we heard her say something in Serbian, and
18 at that time I thought it was -- she said, They are only kids, they are
19 only children. And then she was taken further away within that yard, and
20 she was shot twice in her back.
21 Q. Thank you. And after your mother was shot, what happened to the
22 group that you were with?
23 A. When my mother was shot, me and my sister started screaming and
24 shouting. At this time one of the soldiers -- I saw one of the soldiers
25 just walk in front of us, and we were kind of -- because I was at the
Page 1934
1 beginning of -- excuse me, I was at the beginning of the group, so they
2 started shooting, so I was kind of pushed. And we were all just grouped
3 together on the corner of the house.
4 Q. Okay. And as you were grouped and standing on the corner of the
5 house, what happened after that?
6 A. Well, they just started shooting. We all fell on top of each
7 other and just fell on the floor. This shooting stopped for a few
8 minutes and then he carried on again because you could hear someone
9 struggling to breathe, and they fired a few rounds again. I pretended to
10 be dead. I could still hear Fezrije trying to breathe as well, so at
11 this time she was still alive I think. After a few minutes, the shooting
12 stopped and everyone left the courtyard.
13 Q. Okay. Before we move on to that, you mention in your statement,
14 paragraph 44, that you were certain that shots were coming from two
15 directions --
16 A. Yeah --
17 Q. -- because of the injuries you sustained. Could you explain why
18 you were certain of this, that you were being shot at from two
19 directions.
20 A. Well, as I said before, I was -- I had my shoulder and back
21 towards the wall of the house. The man that started firing -- which I
22 thought started firing first was located on my left. So unless he moved
23 from one position to another, I couldn't have got the injuries that I've
24 got now because I was shot on my left leg and also on my right as well.
25 So there's no way the bullets could have hit my right leg from the
Page 1935
1 position where he was standing.
2 Q. Okay. And how many shots did you suffer in total that day?
3 A. I suffered five or six.
4 Q. Five or six, okay. And if we could look at the diagram again,
5 could you mark with a number 5 where it is that your group was standing
6 when you were shot at.
7 A. Here.
8 Q. Thank you. And after you were shot, you say that you were taken
9 out on to the street close to the police station and that you were placed
10 next to a vehicle. This is in paragraph 46, and you were there for about
11 five to ten minutes. Could you tell us what you saw while you were
12 waiting outside?
13 A. As I've explained, I was kind of sat on the edge of the vehicle.
14 I was facing everything like in front of me. I saw lots of people,
15 soldiers, police, people in civilian clothing, people in mixed uniforms,
16 and they were all just standing on the street talking to each other.
17 Some of them were breaking the shop windows, the others were taking stuff
18 out of the shops, et cetera.
19 Q. Okay. What were they taking out from the shops?
20 A. One incident that I remember is a few -- there was a lorry parked
21 outside a shop, and they were taking food and stuff out of this shop and
22 putting it in the lorry.
23 Q. Okay. You say that you saw two people in civilian clothing, one
24 of whom was a police officer and that you recognised him as being -- or
25 you recognised them as being Serbs local to Podujevo.
Page 1936
1 A. Yeah.
2 Q. How did you know that they were Serbs local to Podujevo?
3 A. Well, first of all, I saw more than two which were in civilian
4 clothing, but the ones that I recognised were them two -- I cannot say
5 for sure if they were or were not, but at that time they looked familiar;
6 and one of them which I've described as well I thought it was a police
7 officer because I thought I seen him before in uniform.
8 Q. And where had you seen him before in uniform?
9 A. Well, around my town.
10 Q. So in Podujevo?
11 A. In Podujevo, yeah.
12 Q. Mr. Bogujevci, on that day how many people where killed when you
13 were fired at in the courtyard?
14 A. There were 14 killed, if I'm not mistaken.
15 Q. And how many of you survived the incident?
16 A. It was my brother, Genc; my sister, Jehona; my other sister,
17 Lirije; my other cousin, Saranda; and myself. Five of us.
18 Q. And do you know what happened to the bodies of the 14 people who
19 were killed on that day?
20 A. Well, as we were taken out of that courtyard, I saw some of the
21 soldiers putting blankets over the bodies, and after some time, we found
22 out that they were buried in a village nearby our town, which is
23 Podujevo.
24 [Prosecution counsel confer]
25 MS. GOPALAN:
Page 1937
1 Q. Mr. Bogujevci, do you know if these bodies have been reburied
2 elsewhere?
3 A. I don't know, but we had to take the bodies out and bury them
4 again.
5 Q. And where did you bury them?
6 A. In a place near where they were initially buried.
7 Q. Okay. And when was that, that you reburied them?
8 A. I don't know for sure because I never went there or never -- it
9 was straight after the KFOR troops entered Kosovo.
10 Q. Okay.
11 A. I'm not sure exactly when.
12 Q. And how did you learn about the reburial? Who told you about it?
13 A. Well, my family, everyone was talking about it.
14 Q. Okay. And so after the shooting could you tell us what happened?
15 A. After the shooting --
16 Q. You were taken to a hospital in Pristina?
17 A. -- yeah. After the shooting a few soldiers which had the blue
18 uniform, camouflage blue uniform with white overcoats gave us a first
19 aid, and then we were taken to the hospital in Pristina. I was in the
20 same vehicle as my sister Jehona. I knew that because I saw her jumper
21 and she was laying on top of the vehicle, and then I was in the Pristina
22 hospital for, I'm not sure exactly, but two, three months approximately.
23 Q. Okay. And where were you taken after that?
24 A. After that we got treatment in Kosovo after the KFOR troops
25 entered, and then we came to England
Page 1938
1 Q. Okay.
2 MS. GOPALAN: I have no further questions for this witness, Your
3 Honours.
4 I'd like to tender the exhibit on the screen now, 5237 -- sorry,
5 5137 that has been marked by the witness.
6 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
7 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
8 MS. GOPALAN: Before I sit down, Your Honours, I'd just like
9 to --
10 JUDGE PARKER: Just a minute, please.
11 MS. GOPALAN: My apologies.
12 THE REGISTRAR: That will be P00384, Your Honours.
13 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, now, sorry.
14 MS. GOPALAN: I'd like to correct the in-court summary where I
15 misread a sentence. I'd originally read that the witness and four of his
16 cousins survived the massacre; I should have read that the witness, his
17 three siblings, and one cousin survived the massacre.
18 JUDGE PARKER: Now, while you're doing that, can you please with
19 the witness clarify the names of his sisters because we have a difference
20 in his rendering of his sister's name - there are two sisters, I
21 gather - and the previous witness's name.
22 MS. GOPALAN: Yes.
23 Q. Mr. Bogujevci, could you tell us the names of your two sisters
24 who survived the incident, please?
25 A. Yeah, the older one is called Jehona Bogujevci --
Page 1939
1 Q. Okay.
2 A. -- the younger one is called Lirije Bogujevci.
3 Q. Okay. And did you have another sister?
4 A. Yeah, the one that was killed was Dora Bogujevci.
5 Q. Okay.
6 MS. GOPALAN: Is that sufficient, Your Honours?
7 JUDGE PARKER: No, that just confirms the difficulty.
8 MS. GOPALAN: Should I ask him to --
9 JUDGE PARKER: Can you assist me. The previous witness, Saranda,
10 she is a sister of yours or a cousin?
11 THE WITNESS: She is a cousin of mine.
12 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. And was she a person present on this
13 day in the courtyard when the shooting occurred?
14 THE WITNESS: Yes, she was.
15 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
16 Thank you, Ms. Gopalan.
17 MS. GOPALAN: Thank you.
18 Mr. Djurdjic, any cross-examination?
19 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour, I will
20 have some cross-examination.
21 Cross-examination by Mr. Djurdjic:
22 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Bogujevci, my name is Veljko Djurdjic. I'm
23 a member of the Defence team representing the accused, Vlastimir
24 Djordjevic. By my side is Ms. Marie O'Leary, who is also on our team,
25 and before I ask you a question, I would like to first express my deepest
Page 1940
1 and most sincere sympathy for the loss of your nearest and dearest.
2 I would like to ask you just some questions about the amendments
3 to the statements that you gave in 2008. I would like to ask you when
4 your memory was at its freshest in the year 2000 when you had an
5 interview in Manchester
6 court in Belgrade
7 statement containing a number of paragraphs to the Office of
8 the Prosecutor; or today, when you provided some additional explanations.
9 A. I think my memory was the best in 2000, but at that time I was
10 much younger, and I never gave any statements before, and I didn't go --
11 sometimes I didn't go into as much detail as I've done in other times.
12 Q. Thank you. So in the year 2000 when you were asked questions in
13 Manchester
14 it was at the time?
15 A. Yes, I did.
16 Q. Now I would like to ask you this: In addition to your
17 recollection, the memories that you had, were you shown any documents or
18 other people's statements to refresh your memory in order for you to be
19 able to give a more detailed account of what had happened to you?
20 A. No, I haven't, except for my statements.
21 Q. Thank you.
22 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have document
23 P237, that's the diagram that we had, it's the 65 ter number of the
24 Prosecution but without the markings, please. Thank you.
25 Q. Mr. Fatos, could you please tell me, this compound of yours, am I
Page 1941
1 right if I say that that's numbers 3, 2, 1, and 5?
2 A. No, our compound is 1, 2, and 3.
3 Q. Thank you. When you say "our compound," are you referring only
4 to your family, your father's family; or if it's the extended family,
5 could you please tell us who's included?
6 A. It's the extended family. My -- the one owned by my father, and
7 his father was number 1.
8 Q. And you could get into this compound numbered 1 and 2 from the
9 street?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And could you tell me, what number is Saranda's house?
12 A. Same as -- same as mine because we lived in the same house.
13 Q. And from that house to the location numbered 6, how far is it?
14 A. Well, which way? Like, if you want to take the road or from the
15 way that -- the direction that we went to?
16 Q. Well, you drew in the house number 1, and how far is your house
17 from the building marked as 6? I think you told us that this was the
18 police building.
19 A. Well, a walk on the road is -- it takes five minutes to get
20 there.
21 Q. Thank you. You marked some passages here, but you cannot see the
22 passage between the courtyards here because you drew in everything with
23 an unbroken line.
24 A. Is that a question? Sorry. It's only a sketch.
25 Q. Yes, yes. The question is: I can see all the solid lines
Page 1942
1 between the courtyards that you drew here, and you cannot see any of the
2 passages here.
3 A. Because on the back there was no path. It was all fences and low
4 walls.
5 Q. I don't know if you understand me. Passage means that between
6 two parts one can move from one to another, and the way that you drew it
7 here, you did not mark or draw any passageways between the courtyards?
8 A. Because there was no passages, it was just fences and walls
9 broken down.
10 Q. I didn't understand you. What do you mean to say when you say
11 that the walls were broken down and the fences were broken down?
12 A. That's what I mean. The fences were taken down. The walls were
13 old, so you could just walk through them, they were broken down. There
14 wasn't actually a path or a passage that led -- which would lead from our
15 garden into our neighbour's garden; it was just fences and walls which
16 had been torn down.
17 Q. Well, why didn't you mark it accordingly on the diagram?
18 A. Well, when I first drew -- saw the diagram, that's what I said,
19 it's just a rough diagram. I didn't -- I didn't draw everything how it
20 was. I couldn't have drawn a fence. I just drew a line to separate the
21 gardens.
22 Q. This is the first time that you, or rather, the first time that
23 you drew this. When was it, when was the first time?
24 A. Last week. This is when -- that's when I drew this.
25 Q. And that's the only time, isn't it?
Page 1943
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Thank you. Please tell me, am I right if I say that you did not
3 enter the building marked with number 7?
4 A. No, I didn't.
5
6 Q. I do apologise. I want to be quite specific. I'm asking you
7 only about the time-period, or rather, the day that you told us about.
8 Whenever I want you to talk about some other time, I will specify that.
9 So did you ever go to the police station in Podujevo?
10 A. I went outside there -- around there, but I never actually went
11 within the building.
12 Q. Thank you. And did you see people working in the building, what
13 kind of clothes they wore?
14 A. At the time of the incident?
15 Q. Yes, at that time. If you passed by in that time-period, in
16 March 1999, can you tell us what kind of clothes they wore?
17 A. I didn't see any people within the building. I only saw people
18 around the building and the entrance was behind me at that time.
19 Q. I asked you about the times when you passed by the building
20 because you told us that you had passed by that building, and I asked you
21 that at the time you passed by, not on the critical day, whether you saw
22 what kind of clothes the people who worked there in that building wore?
23 A. As far as I remember, they just wore normal police uniform, which
24 was the blue -- dark blue camouflage uniform.
25 Q. Thank you. And could you tell me the persons that assisted you
Page 1944
1 after you were injured, did they have the same type of uniforms that
2 you've just described for me; and if not, could you please describe what
3 kind of uniforms they were wearing?
4 A. They did have the same uniforms, except they had a white
5 overcoat.
6 Q. Thank you. Do you know that you were given first aid by a police
7 doctor?
8 A. Afterwards I did know, yeah.
9 Q. Thank you. And in general, those people who came to assist you,
10 they were police officers; am I right?
11 A. Well, they had the police uniform, yeah.
12 Q. Thank you. And they assisted Saranda and other persons who were
13 injured, who were there with you?
14 A. Yes, that's correct.
15 Q. Thank you. And you were all taken in an ambulance to the
16 Pristina Hospital
17 A. That's correct again, yeah.
18 Q. Thank you. Am I right if I say that your sister, Lirije, was
19 then transferred to Belgrade
20 A. Yeah, that's right.
21 Q. Thank you. Let's now clear up your family relationship. You
22 were injured. Your sisters, what are their names, the sisters that were
23 injured?
24 A. I said before, Lirije and Jehona.
25 Q. Saranda is your cousin; is that correct?
Page 1945
1 A. Yeah, that's correct.
2 Q. Who else was injured there and what was your relationship, how
3 were you kin?
4 A. My brothers -- well, which is Genc Bogujevci. My brother, not
5 brothers, sorry.
6 Q. I'm sorry, he is your brother? You have the same mother and
7 father; right?
8 A. [No verbal response]
9 Q. Could you please tell me when you were injured, did you remain
10 conscious?
11 A. Yes, I did.
12 Q. Did you dare at all to look around?
13 A. Well, yeah, but it only happened quick.
14 Q. Could you please tell me, why did you never state, including in
15 the 2008 statement, what you told us today, that you were able to
16 recognise people, that they were hitting people?
17 A. I don't know why. I just -- when you talk about something and
18 then sometimes you move into another thing so quick and you forget
19 something, because there was a lot of things that happened at that time.
20 Q. Thank you. Could you please tell me, you conclude, on the basis
21 of the fact that you were shot both in the right and the left side of
22 your body, that several people were firing at you. Could you please tell
23 me, if you know that, what kind of injuries did you sustain? Where were
24 you injured?
25 A. I was injured on my left leg and my right leg.
Page 1946
1 Q. Thank you. And did you have several injuries to both legs?
2 A. I had three on my left leg and two on my right.
3 Q. Thank you. Did you perhaps provide your medical records to the
4 Prosecution in the course of all those years and all those interviews
5 that they conducted with you?
6 A. I don't know. I'm not sure.
7 Q. Thank you. And one thing is certain, we did not see those
8 documents here today.
9 A. One reason could be that I was pretty much fine when I left the
10 Pristina Hospital
11 healed, and I didn't receive any more treatment in England; and the
12 documents which were in the Pristina Hospital, I don't think anyone was
13 able to get them.
14 Q. Thank God that you're fine, but there is the whole medical file
15 on you, and it is in the records of the district court in Belgrade; but I
16 asked you whether you provided the medical records to the Prosecution,
17 whether you knew that. But let us move on...
18 You said, and perhaps I misinterpreted you, that the village of
19 Shuria, that that's the name of the village?
20 A. Shuria.
21 Q. Okay. And you said that this village was the home village of the
22 Duriqi family?
23 A. No, this was the home village of the Lugaliju family.
24 Q. I do apologise. I do apologise. Could you please tell me where
25 did the Duriqis hail from, what village?
Page 1947
1 A. They came from Obranqa.
2 Q. Thank you.
3 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I believe that again
4 the time has come for a technical break.
5 JUDGE PARKER: Very well. We'll have the next break now and
6 resume at 1.00.
7 --- Recess taken at 12.29 p.m.
8 --- On resuming at 1.02 p.m.
9 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Djurdjic.
10 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
11 Q. Mr. Bogujevci, you told me that you were almost 13 years old when
12 all of this happened. Could you tell me what grade you were in at school
13 and what was the school actually?
14 A. If I can remember correctly, I think it was the sixth grade in
15 the system that used to be at that time, and the school was called
16 Shaban Skool [phoen].
17 Q. Thank you. Did you go to the same school like Saranda?
18 A. Over there the system is you go to a primary school for the --
19 from the first grade to the fourth grade, and then from the fourth grade
20 to the eighth grade you go to a different school. So for the secondary
21 school, yeah, I did go to the same school as Saranda.
22 Q. I beg your pardon. I didn't quite understand what you said. You
23 said that up to the fourth grade it is one school, and after the fourth
24 grade it was another school and you consider this other school after the
25 fourth grade to be a secondary?
Page 1948
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Do you enroll at a universe after eight years of schooling?
3 A. No, you go to -- you do another four years, what used to be
4 called like a college before you go to the faculty.
5 Q. Sir, let us make it faster and simpler. Where you started
6 school, there is a system of compulsory elementary education that lasts
7 for eight years; right?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. So what grade was Saranda in 1999 when you were in the sixth
10 grade?
11 A. She -- she's one year older than me, so she could have been one
12 grade or two grades higher than what I was.
13 Q. Thank you. Did you go to the same school?
14 A. Yes, from the fourth grade, yes.
15 Q. Thank you. As for the school you attended, was it a mono-ethnic
16 school?
17 A. No, it was just a school for Albanians.
18 Q. Thank you. At that school, did you speak Albanian only?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Thank you. Am I right when I say that at that time you did not
21 know the Serbian language?
22 A. Yeah, that's right.
23 Q. Thank you. Mr. Bogujevci, I would be interested in the
24 following: When did you find out what the name of the street that you
25 lived in in 1999 was?
Page 1949
1 A. Well, I can't say exactly, but if I lived there then obviously I
2 knew the name of my street.
3 Q. I have to ask you this because the name of the street was
4 something that you did not mention at any point in time until
5 October 2008, and then you made your statements in 2000 and 2003. And --
6 well, would you know the name, or rather, the number of the building in
7 the street that you lived?
8 A. I think it was 265, Kosancic Ivana, but I'm not sure. And the
9 reason I've not said that in the other statements, is that I've never
10 been asked on -- like, what was the name of the street.
11 Q. Yes. Do you know who Ivan Kosancic was?
12 A. No.
13 Q. The number of the building is 265 and no one ever asked you that
14 before, I mean before October 2008, and that is what -- that is when you
15 said what the number was; right?
16 A. No one asked me for number, no, but I'm not actually sure it's
17 265, but it's something like that.
18 Q. Thank you. What is the name of your street today, the street
19 that you lived in, that is?
20 A. I think it's called Skenderbeg Street.
21 Q. Thank you. Did you know any Serbs in Podujevo in 1999?
22 A. I only knew them like I -- I knew them by, like -- if I saw them
23 I knew who they were. I didn't know them -- any of them personally. And
24 I knew two of my neighbours as well.
25 Q. Thank you. May I infer that you did not socialise with them?
Page 1950
1 A. No, I didn't.
2 Q. If you do not socialise with someone, do you think that you have
3 a very good relationship with them?
4 A. I cannot ask to socialise with someone that doesn't want to
5 socialise with me. So that doesn't prove any relationship with me or
6 with them. It doesn't mean I have a bad relation with them or a good
7 relation with them; I just didn't socialise with them.
8 Q. Thank you, Witness. You are quite right, but I'm asking all of
9 this because of paragraph 15 in you're statement. Now I would like to
10 put a new question to you.
11 Am I right if I say that Albanians from the rural areas moved to
12 Podujevo because there was fighting between the KLA and the police and
13 army in the villages and hills, the police and army of Serbia, that is?
14 A. Yeah, that's right.
15 Q. Am I right if I say that due to that fighting there were
16 policemen and soldiers in Podujevo?
17 A. I don't know the reason, but there were soldiers and army in
18 Podujevo.
19 Q. Thank you. Your friends, the Duriqis, actually had come to
20 Podujevo because of all of those conflicts. They wanted their family to
21 be in a safe place; am I right?
22 A. Yeah.
23 Q. Thank you. Not to dwell on this too long, would this kind of
24 answer also go for paragraph 22 of your statement, that is to say in
25 relation to persons coming to the town of Podujevo from the rural areas?
Page 1951
1 I'll give you the page number. In English it is - just a moment,
2 please -- I am sorry. You're waiting for me it seems, and I'm waiting
3 for you.
4 A. Yeah -- all right, sorry. I've got the page number, yeah, and
5 I've got paragraph 22.
6 Q. So, please, paragraph 22, two questions actually. 17, 18, and
7 22, do they reflect facts that you had heard and then you communicated
8 them to the investigators that you talked to? In the last sentence of
9 paragraph 22 we see your answer that you gave me a few moments ago in
10 relation to the conflict, what we talked about a few moments ago, the
11 fighting in the rural areas?
12 A. Yeah.
13 Q. Thank you. Mr. Bogujevci, now I would like to move on to
14 paragraph 19 of your statement. I would be interested in the following:
15 Is this what you actually said, what is written in this statement and
16 what I'm going to quote to you now -- actually, first let me ask you --
17 or rather, you can read it. You know when the war started, don't you,
18 the war in 1999?
19 A. Yeah.
20 Q. It's written here. And then allegedly you said --
21 A. Well, I've -- now, I don't know exactly when the war started. I
22 don't think the war started on the 24th. The war started earlier than
23 that, but I've stated when the NATO started the air campaign.
24 Q. Thank you. And you say that the air campaign involved the
25 bombing of certain targets. Could you please tell me what those targets
Page 1952
1 were?
2 A. I don't know the targets. We only heard planes at night, bombs
3 being dropped. I don't know the targets exactly.
4 Q. Thank you. Further on you say that in the previous weeks and
5 months there had been significant developments regarding the status of
6 Kosovo. Could you please explain this to me, is that what you actually
7 said; and what did you mean if you actually said it?
8 A. Well, by that I meant that every -- the war had started, everyone
9 was fighting for their rights, there had been troops coming in; that's
10 what I meant.
11 Q. I have to take you back to this now because something is written
12 here, and what you've said to me just now is different. First of all, I
13 would be interested in hearing whether these were your words; namely:
14 "In the previous weeks and months there had been significant developments
15 regarding the status of Kosovo."
16 Are those your words?
17 A. Yes, they are.
18 Q. Now, my next question: What was it that had changed regarding
19 the status of Kosovo over the previous weeks?
20 A. As I said before, by that I meant everyone started fighting and
21 the whole atmosphere in Kosovo changed. We -- I don't know how to
22 explain it.
23 Q. Thank you. But that's not what is written here, and you said
24 today that you fully adopt the statement as your own; however, what
25 you're saying to us just now is not written in this paragraph,
Page 1953
1 paragraph 19 of your statement that I've just read out to you?
2 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Ms. Gopalan.
3 MS. GOPALAN: I believe the witness has already --
4 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
5 MS. GOPALAN: I believe the witness has already answered the
6 question, once above and once just before this final question. He has
7 explained twice what he meant in that sentence in the paragraph that
8 Defence counsel is referring him to.
9 JUDGE PARKER: Your question, Mr. Djurdjic, needs to take account
10 of his evidence that he meant certain things by those words which he says
11 are his. Your question -- your last question, took no account of those,
12 put your interpretation on the words.
13 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I just read out part
14 of the statement where that was established. As for the witness's
15 answer, it is such that it does not correspond to what is written; that
16 is why I asked him for a clarification. However, I shall move on.
17 Q. Tell me, Mr. Bogujevci, do you know how many policemen there
18 were, policemen and soldiers in Podujevo a few weeks prior to the
19 commencement of the air campaign?
20 A. Well, judging from what I saw in different times, I'd say quite a
21 big number; but I cannot give you a -- I cannot give you a number of how
22 many there were or ...
23 Q. Thank you. How was it that you inferred that the number went up?
24 A. I've explained when -- just a few weeks or during that time, the
25 number went up when we saw tanks and different military vehicles drive
Page 1954
1 through your town.
2 Q. Tell me, the main road, how far away is it from your house?
3 A. Which main road?
4 Q. Do you know where the Merdare-Pristina road goes?
5 A. Yes, I do.
6 Q. Do you know that Podujevo is outside the area of the main road
7 going from Merdare to Pristina?
8 A. Yes, but there's another road which would lead from Serbia
9 through Podujevo to Pristina.
10 Q. Sir, the road going from Podujevo to Pristina via Luzane is the
11 main road; however, what you are referring to is a local road, or rather,
12 a street in Podujevo?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Thank you. Am I right if I say that there was no water and
15 electricity in Podujevo when the bombing started and that there was no
16 water or electricity in all of town when these power cuts happened?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Thank you. I would be interested in the following: Could you
19 tell me who was there at that house, which members of the Duriqi family,
20 Enver Duriqi's family?
21 A. It was his father, his mother, his wife, and his children.
22 Q. Can you give us their names?
23 A. I can't remember exactly. I think Hamdi Duriqi, I can't
24 remember, Albijon, his son; Mimoza, I think, his daughter. I can't
25 remember exactly.
Page 1955
1 Q. Thank you. Can you tell me whether you know what an AK-47 is?
2 A. Yes, I do.
3 Q. Could you please tell me?
4 A. It's a -- it's a gun, it's an automatic gun.
5 Q. What is an automatic gun?
6 A. It's a -- it's a weapon that fires bullets automatically or as a
7 rifle -- I don't know how to explain it, but it's a gun. It's a weapon.
8 Q. Since when have you known that?
9 A. I knew what it looked like before because we obviously used to
10 watch films. I didn't know exactly it was called an AK-47. At that time
11 I think we used to say Kalashnikov or something like that from films and
12 stuff that we seen it in, but afterwards I knew that it was an AK-47.
13 Q. That's what I'm interested in. When was it that you found out
14 about AK-47?
15 A. I can't remember exactly. I can't give you an exact date.
16 Q. Well, I can tell you that before giving your statement in
17 October 2008, that is to say on the 5th of October, you never mentioned
18 that particular name for this rifle, the one that I referred to just now.
19 A. Well, the reason for that is because I either forgot to or I knew
20 after the 2008 -- 2000, not 2008.
21 Q. Yes. I'm just interested in one more thing. You did not see any
22 insignia on any uniform; am I right?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Thank you. Thank you, sir, for having answered my questions.
25 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, thank you. I have
Page 1956
1 no further questions.
2 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much, Mr. Djurdjic.
3 Ms. Gopalan, is there re-examination?
4 MS. GOPALAN: I do have some very brief re-examination,
5 Your Honours.
6 Could I call-up 65 ter number 5237, please.
7 Re-examination by Ms. Gopalan:
8 Q. Mr. Bogujevci, I just have a few questions for you arising from
9 the cross-examination by Defence counsel. You were asked about the
10 houses in your family compound by Defence counsel and you were asked
11 whether houses 1, 2, 3, and 5 were in your family compound. You
12 clarified that houses 1, 2, and 3 were in your family compound. Could
13 you tell us what house number 5 is?
14 A. House number 5 was Selman Gashi's house.
15 Q. And who was Selman Gashi?
16 A. Our neighbour, just a neighbour.
17 Q. Thank you. And the second question I have to ask you is about
18 the increase in the police and military presence in your town and the
19 vehicles that you saw around the time of your NATO bombing -- around the
20 time of the NATO bombings. Could you tell us where these military
21 vehicles were passing through, where did you see them pass by?
22 A. They were all around. They were passing in the town centre.
23 There was -- when the bombing started, there was another vehicle up our
24 street which fired constantly like every night. Before the NATO bombing
25 there were other tanks. Because my uncle lives outside Podujevo, so just
Page 1957
1 a few months before March when we went to visit him we could see tanks
2 parked pointing towards our village --
3 Q. Okay --
4 A. -- et cetera.
5 Q. Thank you. But around the time of the bombing, could you see
6 these vehicles from your home?
7 A. Around the time, we -- only when they passed by.
8 Q. And where did they pass by in relation to your home?
9 A. On our -- on our street, on our road.
10 Q. Okay.
11 A. Which could be seen from our window.
12 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. Bogujevci. I don't have any more
13 questions for you.
14 JUDGE PARKER: You'll be pleased to know that concludes the
15 questions to be asked of you. We would like to thank you for coming to
16 The Hague twice this last week or so. Sorry that you had to go away and
17 return. We would like, also, to thank you also for the assistance you
18 were able to give us in this matter, and you are now, of course, free to
19 go back to your ordinary affairs in the UK. Thank you indeed and the
20 court officer will show you out.
21 [The witness withdrew]
22 JUDGE PARKER: Looking at the time, it would seem not very
23 practical to think of resuming cross-examination of K88 at this hour. By
24 the time he came in, we would have only a few minutes. So I think the
25 better course then is to adjourn for today and resume tomorrow at 9.00,
Page 1958
1 when we will proceed with the cross-examination of K88.
2 Looking ahead in the week, are you able to say how long that
3 cross-examination is likely to be, Mr. Djurdjic, K88, that is?
4 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I believe that if it
5 is witness is succinct in his answers, one session should be sufficient.
6 But having read some of his testimony in other trials, he is quite
7 extensive in his answers. But I think that one session, perhaps even
8 less, should be sufficient if the witness keeps his answers short and to
9 the point.
10 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you for that encouraging prediction,
11 Mr. Djurdjic.
12 Very well. With that in mind, we now adjourn, and we resume
13 tomorrow at 9.00.
14 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.35 p.m.,
15 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 10th day of
16 March, 2009, at 9.00 a.m.
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