090609ED

Page 5712

1 Tuesday, 9 June 2009

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.03 a.m.

5 [The witness takes the stand]

6 JUDGE PARKER: Good morning.

7 THE WITNESS: Good morning.

8 JUDGE PARKER: The affirmation you made to tell the truth still

9 applies today, of course.

10 Yes, Mr. Stamp.

11 WITNESS: ALEKSANDAR VASILJEVIC [Resumed]

12 [Witness answered through interpreter]

13 Examination by Mr. Stamp: [Continued]

14 Q. Thank you very much, Your Honour.

15 Good morning, General Vasiljevic.

16 A. Good morning.

17 Q. Following on from your last answer yesterday can you please tell

18 us if you know General Djakovic was posted in 1998 and 1999?

19 A. You mean 1999 or 1989?

20 Q. 1998 in particular?

21 A. He, as far as I know, served in the command of the 3rd Army doing

22 operational tasks. After the state of war ended, he came to the people's

23 defence school, or national defence school, from September 1999 on; and

24 after graduating from that school, he was appointed head of the security

25 administration.

Page 5713

1 Q. And when he was doing operational tasks in the 3rd Army, who was

2 the 3rd Army commander?

3 A. The commander of the 3rd Army was General Pavkovic.

4 MR. STAMP: If we could return to 65 ter document number 01468.

5 And move to page 11 in the English, 9 in the B/C/S.

6 Q. These are minutes for a meeting on the 27th of July, 1998. Whose

7 writing is this?

8 A. You know, I, generally speaking, could recognise that this could

9 be General Djakovic's handwriting. He had very nice handwriting, close

10 to calligraphy. But my recognition is based more on his admission that

11 he had kept minutes. But if you were to juxtapose this handwriting with

12 another, it would be difficult for me to say this would be a

13 graphological expertise. But this is based on what he told me that he

14 had taken the minutes. Basically I do know his handwriting. He writes

15 in the Latin script, and he has this very nice legible handwriting. I

16 know this from our joint work in security administration during 2000.

17 Q. Okay. Just so -- are you able to say or not whose handwriting

18 this is, that you have there?

19 JUDGE PARKER: Just a minute, Mr. Djurdjic. We'll have the

20 answer.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I've already said I presume that

22 this is General Djakovic's handwriting. I cannot be absolutely sure. If

23 you were to put down in front of me a similar handwriting, I would still

24 say that it was his handwriting; but my assertion stems from his

25 admission that he had those minutes at the Joint Commission, and it

Page 5714

1 follows from my general knowledge of what his handwriting looked like.

2 JUDGE PARKER: You object, Mr. Djurdjic?

3 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Second time round, but everything

4 remains the same, Your Honours. First, well, the two answers are

5 identical. I reiterate, General Djakovic is going to testify before this

6 Bench, and this -- these minutes are going to be adduced through

7 General Djakovic. This witness is a counter-intelligence officer, he

8 knows many methods; but he is not a graphologist, and he cannot be used

9 to introduce this piece of evidence into evidence. Thank you.

10 I apologise, another thing, at the time the witness was not in

11 active duty in the military.

12 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Stamp, are you -- that objection anticipated

13 you were about to tender.

14 MR. STAMP: Indeed, yes.

15 JUDGE PARKER: Is that something that is in your mind?

16 MR. STAMP: It is in my mind, but I wish to show the witness

17 another part of the document.

18 JUDGE PARKER: Carry on.

19 MR. STAMP: Could we have a look at page 18 in English, 13 in

20 the B/C/S.

21 Q. These are the notes in respect to the 27th of July. The top part

22 is not in the English version here. At the top you see a Mr. Gajo. Who

23 would that be, do you know?

24 A. Mr. Gajo is down towards the bottom of the page. That is

25 supposed to be Mr. David Gajic from state security in Pristina.

Page 5715

1 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] This is not an objection, but

2 B/C/S and English pages do not correspond so what is shown on the B/C/S

3 cannot be shown in the English version. So in the Serbian there is a

4 heading followed by a date, and what is shown in the Serbian is the end

5 of the page.

6 MR. STAMP: On the English copy could you go back to the previous

7 page.

8 Q. And on both of the pages that I've shown you, have you noticed

9 the participants recorded at this meeting?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And --

12 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Again, Your Honour. My learned

13 friend, the page in the English version is not the correct one. You

14 should change either the Serbian copy or the English copy, the beginnings

15 of the page do not correspond. It starts here with General Djakovic in

16 the Serbian.

17 JUDGE PARKER: [Previous translation continues] ... Mr. Djurdjic,

18 you'll have to accept that there will be some differences as you go

19 between one and the other. But you should by now have had an opportunity

20 to see the equivalent of what is on the English page on two pages of the

21 B/C/S. Is that correct?

22 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Yes, that's correct, but the

23 content of the B/C/S page and the English page do not correspond. Here

24 it starts with the briefing of General Djakovic in Serbian, am I right,

25 witness?

Page 5716

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, this is the briefing of

2 General Pavkovic.

3 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] No, I thought it was Djakovic,

4 it's Pavkovic. It's okay. I withdraw my objection.

5 MR. STAMP:

6 Q. The two pages you have been shown, you see reference to the

7 participation of Mr. Minic; Mr. Sainovic; Mr. Djordjevic; Mr. Majic;

8 Mr. Gajo, who you have just told us is David Gajic; General Pavkovic;

9 General Djordjevic, again; and General Lukic. And I recall your evidence

10 yesterday when you said that Colonel Stojanovic told you who were the

11 regular participants at these meetings; are these the same persons who

12 told you were the regular participants?

13 A. You mean Colonel Stojanovic?

14 Q. Colonel Stojanovic, pardon me.

15 A. I cannot tell you anything else other than what I told you

16 yesterday, what Colonel Stojanovic told me when we were driving from the

17 meeting of the Joint Commander to the security organs meeting. He told

18 me who were the attendees of those meetings. Some of those persons are

19 mentioned here. David Gajic, for instance. But at that occasion he did

20 not mention who among the MUP generals attended those meetings, which

21 doesn't mean that they did not. But since this was not an issue that I

22 was interested in, I did not ask him for any details. But some of the

23 persons he mentioned were recorded as being present at this meeting as

24 far as I can see.

25 Q. Thank you.

Page 5717

1 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Djurdjic.

2 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] I waited for the witness to finish

3 to object not to influence his answer. My learned friend's statement was

4 in contravention of what the witness said. He had said that Stojanovic

5 used to attend those meetings and then his attendance ceased. And now

6 Mr. Stamp said that he always attended Joint Command sessions. I would

7 like to petition the Bench to ask my learned friend to rephrase his

8 questions and not to put words into the witness's mouth.

9 MR. STAMP: That might have been a mistranslation, but I did not

10 say that Colonel Stojanovic always attended, I did not even mention

11 Colonel Stojanovic's attendance. What I sought to get from the witness,

12 and he has answered, is that the persons here in this document are

13 generally consistent with the persons that Colonel Stojanovic said would

14 attended these meetings. And in those circumstances, Your Honours, that

15 is as far as I can go with this documents, and I would tender it and ask

16 that it be received in evidence.

17 If I may, the witness has indicated his knowledge about the

18 document from the maker and his knowledge about the meetings from

19 somebody who used to attend the meetings, that's Colonel Stojanovic, and

20 the persons who attended. He has looked at the writing and although he

21 cannot claim, he says he is not absolutely sure it is the writing of the

22 person who told him he made it, he can see that the document is entitled

23 "Meetings of a Joint Command" and the persons minuted here as being in

24 attendance are the same persons he was told by Colonel Stojanovic would

25 attend these meetings.

Page 5718

1 So I submit that it is identified to the extent where it could be

2 admitted in evidence for whatever value the Chamber would give to it in

3 the course of the other evidence that may come before the Court about

4 this document.

5 [Trial Chamber confers]

6 JUDGE PARKER: In the view of the Chamber, the document should be

7 marked for identification, not received as an exhibit in evidence.

8 THE REGISTRAR: That will be assigned P00886 MFI, Your Honours.

9 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

10 MR. STAMP: Very well. Thank you very much.

11 Q. General, could we move on. You told us yesterday that it was the

12 intention of General Ojdanic that a meeting should be held with the MUP

13 to resolve differences in terms of allegations about criminal conduct by

14 the MUP and the VJ, and that General Farkas did make efforts to have such

15 a meeting and eventually one was held on the 9th of July, notwithstanding

16 the difficulties that were placed in arranging the meeting by certain MUP

17 generals.

18 Sir, I'd like to go to that meeting of the 9th of July now. And

19 that is the 9th of July, 1999. Where was this meeting held, and who were

20 the participants?

21 A. First of all, I have to correct you about the reason for that

22 meeting. You said because of the criminal activities of the MUP and the

23 military, but it was not --

24 Q. Sorry, I'm sorry, that is not what I said or meant to say. I

25 said because of competing allegations, there were differences.

Page 5719

1 JUDGE PARKER: You're busy this morning, Mr. Djurdjic.

2 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] My learned friend reads in a funny

3 way. It's stated here:

4 [In English] " ...Ojdanic that a meeting should be held with the

5 MUP to resolve differences in terms of allegations about criminal

6 conduct."

7 [Interpretation] I heard the same thing as the witness.

8 MR. STAMP: That's precisely what I'm saying. The meeting were

9 to be held to resolve allegations, differences in terms of allegations

10 that were to be made about criminal conduct. In any case, may I say this

11 is not a proper objection. This is a situation where I was trying to

12 clarify a question with the witness and.

13 Q. Do you understand the question I'm asking you General?

14 JUDGE PARKER: I would like to know what it is.

15 MR. STAMP:

16 Q. When and where -- sorry, when. Withdrawn.

17 Where was this meeting held, and who were the participants?

18 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The answer to this, the meeting

20 took place on the 9th of July in the General Staff of the VJ in Belgrade.

21 But I'm obliged to say what the problem was. The 17th of May meeting at

22 President Milosevic's, it was stated that there was insufficient

23 cooperation between the military and the MUP. And let me remind you more

24 precisely, it was said whoever is hindering that cooperation, they are

25 doing something which is tantamount to sabotage and criminal activity.

Page 5722

1 [Open session]

2 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.

3 MR. STAMP:

4 Q. Now, have you had an opportunity to refresh your memory as to

5 what occurred at that meeting and could you, if you have, tell us from

6 your memory who spoke and who said what.

7 A. I remember exactly who it was that intervened, although I cannot

8 quote all of them precisely. In any case, I can tell you the gist of it.

9 Everyone I mentioned took part in the discussions at the meeting, save

10 for myself and General Gajic.

11 MR. STAMP: Can he proceed, Your Honours?

12 Q. Please proceed.

13 A. General Ojdanic opened the meeting and put forth its goal. The

14 goal of the meeting was to establish as firm a cooperation as possible

15 between the military and the MUP. There was a joint task at hand which

16 was protecting the constitutional order of the country, as well as

17 protecting the legally elected central governmental bodies. He believed

18 there was a need for such cooperation based on joint implementation of

19 the Kosovo Agreement and the tasks that were ahead of both the army and

20 the MUP in relation to the newly created situation in Kosovo.

21 Next, firmer cooperation had to be established in terms of

22 receiving and exchanging information pertaining to the reserve forces of

23 the VJ, as well as gathering the weapons which by that time were not

24 returned by certain reservists. That was in terms of his introductory

25 remarks.

Page 5723

1 After that, General Vlajko Stojiljkovic took the floor.

2 Q. General?

3 A. Yes, the Minister of the Interior of Serbia.

4 Q. Oh, I didn't know he was a general. Sorry.

5 A. I may have misspoken, if I said he was a general. In any case,

6 the MUP Minister, Vlajko Stojiljkovic. He dominated the meeting. His

7 contribution was longest, and he put forth the most information. At the

8 beginning, he paid respect or rather he expressed his satisfaction with

9 the work of the security services and the army; they have achieved

10 significant results in defending the country. He congratulated those who

11 were promoted on their promotion and on the commendations they received.

12 General Ojdanic, at the end of his introductory remarks,

13 introduced each and every one of us from the security services, and he

14 mentioned a few details about each of us concluding that he -- that we

15 enjoyed his full trust. That is why the minister congratulated on the

16 promotions and commendations received.

17 Then he stated that our joint assessment was correct in terms of

18 what was going on in Kosovo and the way the situation developed. These

19 assessments were confirmed during the previous period. He said that

20 these need to be further analysed and used as a basis for future

21 generations to educate them based on the experience gained prior to that.

22 He also pointed out that MUP organs played a significant role and

23 achieved success. He said that MUP was put under a lot of pressure and

24 had to perform a number of out-of-the-ordinary tasks saying that during

25 1998 and 1999 many MUP members were killed or injured. He said that some

Page 5724

1 262 MUP members were killed and 904 wounded. Only during the aggression

2 on the country, 116 MUP members were killed --

3 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could the counsel please

4 turn his microphone off; we cannot hear because of the background noise.

5 MR. STAMP:

6 Q. I'm sorry, some of what you were saying was not picked up by the

7 interpreters, so could you go back to what you were saying about MUP

8 members were killed and wounded and continue from there.

9 A. I was going through the figures of those who were killed and

10 wounded. The numbers for 1998 and 1999 were captured, I believe.

11 During the war, 116 policemen were killed and 386 wounded.

12 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: 376.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He said that these figures were

14 exceptionally high having in mind the overall staffing strength of the

15 MUP. He also said that Kosovo could only be defended by keeping Serbs

16 present in Kosovo. He said that the army perhaps made a concession

17 because it allowed large numbers of Serbs to pull out as part of their

18 convoys from Kosovo.

19 He stated that there were many Serbs from Kosovo who were out of

20 Kosovo by that time but that the general political position was that they

21 were supposed to go back to Kosovo. He stated that MUP will see to it

22 that they should not receive permanent residence in Serbia proper, but

23 rather that they be registered temporarily. This also applied to their

24 vehicles, which could not receive registration plates from those

25 locations where they were at the moment. They were to keep the Kosovo

Page 5725

1 plates.

2 All that entire body of population was supposed to return to

3 Kosovo eventually because in his words that was the only way to keep

4 Kosovo. He also stressed some general information on the various types

5 of crime in Serbia saying that it increased significantly in the course

6 of the few months prior to that but that the figures were dropping as

7 well.

8 He mentioned two entrepreneurs in particular who were trying to

9 make use of the situation by providing certain supplies and gaining

10 favours. He was alluding at getting some supplies for the army in terms

11 of food cans, et cetera. He said that these people should not enjoy any

12 favours, and that everyone was supposed to meet their obligations and pay

13 taxes.

14 He said, however, that those individuals and companies which meet

15 their obligations towards the state in full should be favoured in turn.

16 He said that MUP organs were successful in the execution of their tasks.

17 Do you want me to slow down?

18 Q. Yes. I'd like to just direct you and focus a little bit more.

19 Did he speak about crimes that might or might not have been committed in

20 Kosovo during the war and about any disciplinary action in respect to

21 that?

22 A. I was about to say that. When he praised the successful work of

23 the MUP, he said that there were only 13 cases of MUP members committing

24 crimes, and procedure was initiated accordingly in each of the cases. To

25 me, it sounded a bit strange having in mind the number of army members

Page 5726

1 who were involved in different proceedings.

2 Without going into any further detail, he stated something that

3 fell within the overall topic of the meeting. He said that everyone

4 should do their work without peeking or paying much heed to what others

5 were doing. Everyone was to do their job; and in his words, things would

6 be fine that way.

7 He said that he has no bias or negative attitude towards any army

8 moves, although, he said he knew of some previous practice that was

9 adopted prior to 1991 when the relationship between the army and MUP were

10 not all that great -- was not all that great.

11 That's what I can tell you concerning his contribution. After

12 him came General Djordjevic, and everyone who followed had briefer

13 contributions. At the beginning General Djordjevic said that in order

14 for both services to perform well, they should keep within their own

15 respective domains without dealing with the others' problems. It was a

16 follow-up of what the minister had said about everyone doing their own

17 job.

18 Then he said that there were numerous possibilities to establish

19 a successful and quality cooperation between the services. For example,

20 he mentioned the area of training, then exchange of experience, resolving

21 the matters of status of those belonging to the army and MUP. Next was

22 joint supplies. He pointed out that MUP, much like before, was going to

23 continue implementing measures towards military personnel within their

24 scope of authority, and they would tread carefully.

25 He also said that one needs to steer clear of certain slogans

Page 5727

1 used during various demonstrations or gatherings. Some people were

2 shouting "Slobo, save us from the army," et cetera. Such things occurred

3 in certain incidences of unrest in the area of Leskovac. He said that

4 the image of the army being with the people and MUP being against it is

5 something that should be avoided. I think this reflects over 90 per cent

6 of his contribution.

7 General Stevanovic was next who was even briefer. He adopted a

8 more conciliatory approach. He said that one of the basic preconditions

9 for a successful performance of both services was good cooperation. He

10 also said that the MUP staff that was in Prolom Banja and was in charge

11 for the implementation of the Kosovo Agreement, that some good officers

12 of the VJ should also be allowed there.

13 He asked the Chief of the General Staff to see to it that their

14 members who had completed police academies should not be made to serve

15 the military term.

16 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Djurdjic.

17 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, page 15, line 2 --

18 actually 22 of the transcript. It should read, or rather, it shouldn't

19 be "Slobo, save us from the army," perhaps the witness can clarify.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said "army, save us."

21 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

22 MR. STAMP:

23 Q. General, if I may just ask you one or two things. You said you

24 found a number that the minister gave of 13 policemen strange. Could you

25 elaborate on that a little bit more? By the number of 13 policemen who

Page 5728

1 were in disciplinary proceedings or who were being -- or against whom

2 criminal proceedings had been brought was strange in your view. I think

3 you recall that, can you explain or elaborate on that, please.

4 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Djurdjic.

5 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] I have to say yet again that the

6 witness did not mention any disciplinary proceedings, but criminal

7 proceedings.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I said so.

9 MR. STAMP:

10 Q. You said what you found, what he said about the 13 policemen was

11 strange. Could you tell us what exactly he said, and why did you find it

12 strange?

13 A. He stated that there were only 13 MUP members who had committed

14 crimes for which criminal proceedings were instituted against them. When

15 I expressed my view of finding that strange, I had in mind the time when

16 I was in Kosovo with General Gajic when on the 8th of June we reported to

17 the security administration. By that point we had registered 42 cases,

18 not 42 members of the army, but 42 cases in which numerous army members

19 had committed various crimes, and these two figures stood in disaccord.

20 Q. You also said that General Djordjevic said that the MUP, much

21 like before, was going to continue to implement measures in respect to

22 military personnel. Can you explain what you understood

23 General Djordjevic to mean by that?

24 A. I didn't say that General Djordjevic said that those measures

25 were to be -- to continue being implemented, but that they would

Page 5729

1 particularly carefully apply measures toward military personnel. I

2 didn't mean to say that they were going to increase the implementation of

3 those measures, but that they would be more cautious in implementing them

4 than before.

5 I knew what happened in the period prior to that back in 1991 and

6 1992 when MUP organs had more freedom and applied measures towards

7 military personnel more frequently, starting with checking military

8 vehicles in traffic, then asking for IDs from military personnel,

9 bringing military personnel to police stations.

10 In 1993 to 1997, we also had several cases when soldiers were

11 beaten up.

12 Q. I see.

13 A. Soldiers who were travelling on trains. I think in that respect

14 he wanted to say that they would pay more attention to the application of

15 those measures in order to avoid any excesses.

16 Q. I see. And he said also, that is General Djordjevic, that both

17 services should keep within their respectful or respective domains

18 without dealing with the others' problems. What did you understand him

19 to mean by that?

20 A. Before General Djordjevic, his minister, Vlajko Stojiljkovic,

21 said much the same thing. My interpretation was that they were

22 dissatisfied and sensitive to information that the security

23 administration and General Staff submitted directly to

24 President Milosevic concerning the murder cases in Kosovo. It was viewed

25 in that way probably because the information contained some data on the

Page 5730

1 activities of the MUP, concerning for example, Boca and the crime in

2 Podujevo. They were quite touchy on that topic, and did not like the

3 fact that we were reporting on their work.

4 The minister hinted on that as well as General Djordjevic, he

5 said, Let's each of us do our work; pay attention to what you do and not

6 the other one. And this was the basic precondition for a successful

7 cooperation.

8 Q. Thank you. If we could move back a little in time to the period

9 when yourself and now General Gajic went to Kosovo. I think that's

10 1st June and about seven days thereafter. What -- if you could describe

11 for us briefly, what were the reports that you received in respect to

12 crimes that had been committed in Kosovo while you were there on your

13 tour?

14 A. I've already mentioned that we had contacted 12 security officers

15 from various units starting with independent battalions up to the

16 Pristina Corps. It would be difficult for me to go through those cases

17 individually. Summarily, I can tell you that we registered 42 cases in

18 which military personnel in different ways broke the law as well as

19 procedure. Those crimes were mostly committed by individuals. There

20 were murders of three to four people; rapes of under-age girls; allowing

21 much freedom to volunteers to do away, for example, with 7 Albanians such

22 as the case in Gornja Klina involved, they eventually ended up in a well.

23 Then MUP members would break into houses, maltreat inhabitants, maltreat

24 some Roma citizens that they came across -- came upon.

25 There was also one specific case of a soldier manning a

Page 5731

1 check-point around Prizren. He was there together with a policeman. And

2 for no reason the soldier killed an elderly Albanian who even had

3 permission to enter Prizren. And all that happened following the

4 policeman's initiative who told him, Just kill him. Why are you asking

5 for his ID?

6 There were a number of such cases.

7 Objectively speaking, I can say that concerning the information

8 we verified and checked subsequently upon our return, most of such cases

9 were processed and a number of proceedings completed. Most of it took

10 place in April.

11 I was there in early June, and by that time there was only one

12 single case that had not been processed. It involved Colonel Stosic and

13 three volunteers from his unit that was up in Klina. That is what the

14 security organs stated on the situation in the various units. However,

15 some security organs also had information on what was going on in the

16 field.

17 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Djurdjic.

18 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] A correction. Page 19, line 17.

19 The witness did not say MUP members, but army members. He was talking

20 about the army.

21 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

22 Mr. Stamp, I don't know whether you want to follow that up.

23 MR. STAMP: Yes.

24 Q. You spoke about persons who would break into houses, maltreat

25 inhabitants, and maltreat some Roma citizens that they came upon. Were

Page 5732

1 these MUP members or army members you were speaking of?

2 A. Army. It had to do with two soldiers in reference to the Roma.

3 Everything I've said so far had to do with army members.

4 Q. Because that was my next question. You said that cases were

5 processed and a number of proceedings completed. These are the cases

6 with army members you are talking about?

7 A. Yes. So far I only mentioned one MUP member at the joint

8 check-point near Prizren together with another soldier who killed the

9 elderly person.

10 Q. You said that your security organs also received information

11 about events in the field. Did they receive information about crimes

12 that were committed in the field?

13 A. When I was explaining what sources a security organ uses, I also

14 mentioned live sources, information gathering pertaining to the situation

15 in a unit that is under that particular security organ's

16 counter-intelligence surveillance. In the course of those duties, he

17 usually comes across information which may not be directly related to the

18 unit but are, nevertheless, interesting in terms of security. In that

19 regard, certain security organs stated information about things that were

20 taking place within the areas of responsibility of their units.

21 The most interesting contribution was the report of the security

22 organ officer at the 52nd Artillery Rocket Brigade. It was

23 Lieutenant Serge -- I cannot recall his last name at this moment. He was

24 a young officer. He was based in Djakovica. He put forth some

25 information that was later on verified by the head of security at the

Page 5741

1 military colleges and schools and since I commanded an operational unit

2 for a time, I am familiar with the regulations and the practice.

3 Regulations say that whenever combat operations are carried out,

4 all units, meaning Territorial Defence units while it existed, all

5 internal organs of the interior, and which included the organs of social

6 self-defence, all such organs within the area of combat operations are

7 resubordinated to the highest command in that area.

8 And since the state of war had been declared, we are talking

9 about 1999, the president of Yugoslavia issued an order resub -- in his

10 capacity as a supreme commander -- on resubordinating MUP units to VJ, to

11 the VJ. As far as I can tell you, and I know this from general -- from

12 discussions with General Ojdanic and from the brief of General Pavkovic

13 on the 16th of May at the preparatory meeting for our next day's meeting

14 with the President Milosevic, it was stated then that MUP organs disobey

15 the resubordination order and that there are many problems.

16 For instance, when the Joint Commission to investigate the

17 responsibility for the bodies in the field; then-General Lukic did not

18 want to follow that request. Then there was a talk about the

19 check-points where military police was occupying. MUP personnel didn't

20 want to stop at such check-points and vice-versa. There were many such

21 cases. And for that reason, at the joint meeting of the 9th of July, it

22 was emphasised by MUP personnel that we should mind our own business and

23 that they would be minding their own business. I know from practice that

24 this order on resubordination was not abided by.

25 And General Ojdanic, when we attending those discussion with

Page 5742

1 President Milosevic together with me, he complained that his order is not

2 being implemented on the ground, that there are problems inter alia about

3 this. And President Milosevic in response said, I know about that, well,

4 first of all, we wrote this order because we want the MUP of Montenegro

5 to cooperate. Because at the time authorities obstructed or offered

6 resistance in terms of war operations, but since I travelled to

7 Montenegro, I knew that MUP organs cooperated in an appropriate manner

8 with all the VJ units that were in that area.

9 I mentioned this already, and I'm going to repeat it. When

10 General Ojdanic was being prepared for his arrival to The Hague, he

11 showed me a work -- his working notebook where he encircled in red the

12 Milosevic's words about this not being because of problems with the MUP

13 of Serbia, but because of problems with the MUP of Montenegro.

14 From the documents that I could see and that was shown to me in

15 this trial and in the previous trials, I can tell you and I can see that

16 in the military documents there were also tasks issued to MUP units in

17 the daily and other orders. And combat cooperation was done through such

18 orders. The problems most probably arose outside of combat operations.

19 To be frank, there must have been misunderstanding at local

20 levels in terms of each local police station being resubordinated to a

21 brigade commander, because MUP had some public security tasks that they

22 had to perform; but resubordination does not effect their public security

23 tasks but their resubordination and action in combat operations.

24 I never heard of a case where a brigade would issue orders

25 concerning a combat operation where a MUP unit would disobey such an

Page 5743

1 order. And this would be my brief overview of this issue.

2 Q. Thank you. Firstly, quickly, do you recall when this meeting

3 with President Milosevic occurred, the meeting in which he spoke about

4 the MUP of Montenegro?

5 A. I think -- well, I know when we were at Milosevic's place,

6 General Ojdanic and I, this is the first half of June in Belgrade in

7 1999.

8 MR. STAMP: Could we look at document 01459. Sorry, I think we

9 should look at 01460, first. Could you scroll down so we can see the

10 whole document.

11 Q. Can you, in a sentence or two because of the time, identify this

12 document, and if you can, can you tell us what was its purpose?

13 A. This is what I discussed. Mention is made of Article 17 of the

14 Defence Act where the chief of the supreme command staff informs

15 strategic group commanders that units of MUP are being subordinated to

16 them in their areas of activity. It was dispatched, and it refers to the

17 order on the resubordination, as I said. And it says here:

18 "Pursuant to an order from the president of the

19 Federal Republic of Yugoslavia."

20 This is exactly what I was discussing a minute ago.

21 Q. Thank you.

22 MR. STAMP: Your Honours, could this be given an exhibit number?

23 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

24 MR. STAMP: And could we --

25 THE REGISTRAR: It that will be assigned P00887, Your Honours.

Page 5744

1 MR. STAMP: I was moving on to another document, but I just noted

2 the time, Your Honours. I wonder if it's convenient.

3 JUDGE PARKER: We'll have our first break now and resume at

4 11.00.

5 [The witness stands down]

6 --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.

7 --- On resuming at 11.02 a.m.

8 [The witness takes the stand]

9 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Stamp.

10 MR. STAMP: Thank you, Your Honours.

11 General, I'd like you to have a look at another document.

12 MR. STAMP: Could we bring up 65 ter number 01459.

13 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Djurdjic.

14 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Concerning this document, well, so

15 as not to rush too much forward, perhaps I'll allow my colleague to

16 proceed and then I will ask for the floor a bit later.

17 MR. STAMP: Yes. Can you move to the next page in both English

18 and B/C/S.

19 Q. You see the signature there, General?

20 A. Just a moment. Yes. I see it.

21 Q. Do you know who it is?

22 A. I recognise this signature because of its characteristics. I

23 believe it is General Nebojsa Pavkovic's.

24 MR. STAMP: If we could go back to the front of the document.

25 First page.

Page 5745

1 Q. This document is addressed to the Supreme Command staff, that is

2 the Chief of Staff in person, that being General Ojdanic, and it says,

3 item 1:

4 "The resubordination of the MUP forces of -- forces of the Army

5 of Yugoslavia has not been carried out in the spirit of the above order

6 for several reasons..."

7 Do you know, General, about whether or not the command of a

8 3rd Army made a report of this nature, and can you comment on that

9 statement in paragraph 1?

10 A. Yes. I know that this document was drafted and sent around this

11 date, the date being the 25th of May. It was a follow-up to our meeting

12 at the General Staff on the 16th and 17th -- the 16th May and 17th May

13 meeting with Milosevic. General Pavkovic in his report pointed out

14 certain relevant problems in terms of cooperation with the MUP.

15 What is characteristic for this is that in the the previous

16 period, he did not submit any report, although he was supposed to once

17 the order was issued on resubordination. He was, in a way, criticized by

18 the Chief of the General Staff on the 16th of May. Therefore, he

19 followed it up by summarising all the problems and forwarding the

20 information.

21 We commented upon this at the General Staff. He specified the

22 specific problems in the field, and he was asking the Chief of the

23 General Staff to raise the issue of why the MUP was not being

24 resubordinated in keeping with the law. Whereas they had daily meetings

25 with the Joint Command, which, in my view, was supposed to deal with

Page 5746

1 precisely those problems in the field.

2 I may be mistaken in my interpretation and the feel I have of

3 this, but I think he is simply trying to blame or put the responsibility

4 on another person's shoulders. I believe you are quite familiar with

5 everything that has been taking place.

6 Q. When you say "... put the responsibility on another person's

7 shoulders," you mean the responsibility for what and on whose shoulders?

8 A. He was asking the Chief of the General Staff to deal with the

9 problem of the MUP not being resubordinated in Kosovo. Although this was

10 within his competence, it was his problem and he had persons of

11 authority, such as Mr. Sainovic, to share those problems with and to

12 raise those problems at meetings with MUP organs so that they could

13 resolve that in direct communication.

14 Instead of that, he merely reported it to the Chief of the

15 General Staff asking him to deal with it from Belgrade.

16 Q. Can you just read in your mind paragraph number 3.

17 MR. STAMP: If we could scroll up on both copies. Scroll down I

18 mean, sorry.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have commented on this in a way

20 when we were talking about the problems in terms of cooperation. It has

21 to do with the check-points manned by the MUP. They simply did not

22 control everyone leaving or coming in. There are also -- there's also

23 implied smuggling, crime; and at the joint meeting of the 9th of July

24 with the MUP organs, they said, You mind your own business and we'll mind

25 our own.

Page 5747

1 This was probably the consequence of the statement in item 3.

2 MR. STAMP:

3 Q. And if you could look at item 4 on the next page. Just if you

4 could read this and comment on it.

5 A. Yes. This has to do with the accusations that the army was to

6 blame for the 800 corpses that need to be taken care of. When Pavkovic

7 established his commission, which in turn established the -- what the

8 situation was in terms of areas of responsibility and scopes of work, it

9 was established that 271 corpses were there because of army activity,

10 whereas the rest was because of the MUP.

11 But generally speaking, I believe it would have been better for

12 him to site a specific example rather than referring to the general

13 situation. In any case, this was to be resolved at the level of the

14 3rd Army and the Kosovo staff, where the persons from MUP who were

15 answerable to Sainovic and others, including Lazarevic, were. Those

16 issues were supposed to be raised at that level at their meetings. All

17 of this is just subsequent reporting.

18 He says that in the daily reports he included some of that

19 information. I didn't receive those reports, but I believe that it was

20 not put adequately in the reports. Had he used the same wording he used

21 now, General Pavkovic would have known of it earlier.

22 In order to make a general conclusion about this document, I

23 think he is merely trying to blame someone else for not reporting in a

24 timely fashion. All this followed the meeting of the 16th of May when

25 General Ojdanic first learned of the problems in Kosovo.

Page 5748

1 Q. Thank you. If we could move on quickly, General, to another

2 area.

3 MR. STAMP: Oh, Your Honours, could this be received in evidence

4 and given an exhibit number.

5 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Djurdjic.

6 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. Your Honours, we

7 deny -- we question the authenticity of this document. Given the

8 practice that was adopted, we suggest that it be MFI'd. We will put

9 forth evidence in order to try and prove that this is not an authentic

10 document. I will also have some questions of the witness since he

11 expressed his view of this document. A graphology expertise was done

12 concerning this document, and we will have our own expert as well. There

13 are several things that I intend to do later. I'm merely asking for the

14 time being that because of this authenticity objection, this document not

15 be admitted but only marked for identification.

16 [Trial Chamber confers]

17 JUDGE PARKER: It will be marked for identification, Mr. Stamp.

18 THE REGISTRAR: And that will be assigned P00888, MFI,

19 Your Honours.

20 MR. STAMP: Very well, Your Honours. May I ask if I could be

21 granted leave to file written submissions on this, because -- or to --

22 the -- what the Defence plans to do in their case, should they have

23 one --

24 JUDGE PARKER: Could I say, Mr. Stamp, that at this moment --

25 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

Page 5749

1 JUDGE PARKER: -- there has not been, in the view of the Chamber,

2 a sufficient identification of, or recognition of, the document by the

3 witness to justify it being received in evidence.

4 MR. STAMP: Very well, Your Honours.

5 JUDGE PARKER: That is the point at which the Chamber is.

6 MR. STAMP:

7 Q. General, you said that you recognised Mr. -- General Pavkovic's

8 signature. In what circumstances had you seen Mr. Pavkovic -- or

9 General Pavkovic's signature before?

10 A. On several occasions. The last time was when I received the

11 decision on cessation of my army service, and I've known his signature

12 for a number of years, although you cannot see the whole of it on this

13 document because of the stamp. Perhaps we can go back to the first page

14 so that I could see the registration number of the document.

15 Can I see it in Serbian, please? Yes. Very well. We should

16 first check whether this document was drafted and sent as its stated

17 here. It should be in the register log-book of the 3rd Army. If I could

18 recall correctly, the first three digits, 872, correspond to the number

19 of the log of the 3rd Army 1999. The next two digit figures, 94, and

20 then slash 1 and 2. So there is a 1 and a 2. We don't see here what is

21 the number of this copy, although, that would be missing in most

22 documents anyhow.

23 If it is an original, then there is no number. Also, there's no

24 stamp confirming receipt at the General Staff. Therefore, one would

25 conclude that this does not come from the archives of the General Staff,

Page 5750

1 but from the archives of the 3rd Army. The only thing missing on the

2 document is that. But first I would need to know whether it came from

3 the archives of the General Staff. If it is, then the receipt stamp

4 should have been affixed whereas it doesn't appear to have one.

5 It can also happen that this is the original kept at the archives

6 of the 3rd Army. We would first need to know that in order to clarify

7 it. As regards the signature, it absolutely resembles the one I know.

8 I also know that this problem was discussed because he was

9 reporting a few days after the meeting of the 16th of May. He is now

10 belatedly discussing the problems that had been discussed at the meeting

11 covering his back. That's what I can tell you.

12 Q. If we go back to the second page to look at the part where he

13 signed, is there anything you can say about the stamp?

14 A. I don't think this signature is in dispute. This is

15 General Pavkovic's signature, and this is the stamp of the army command.

16 He drafted the document, the initials; NP is Nebojsa Pavkovic. He

17 drafted it. Although I don't know the initials of the person who typed

18 it.

19 Q. Thank you.

20 JUDGE PARKER: Why do you speak now, Mr. Djurdjic?

21 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, even though you

22 decided that this document be MFI'd, my learned friend Mr. Stamp

23 continued putting questions about this document. Why am I objecting? I

24 have to tell you this. There is a counterfeit copy materially and

25 legally speaking. We believe that this document was not created on the

Page 5751

1 25th of May, but rather after the war, that is the issue number one.

2 Number two, it is not in the archives of the VJ, where it should be.

3 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Djurdjic, you are giving evidence now. We are

4 approaching this simply on the basis of whether it can be admitted into

5 evidence at this stage of the trial. If it is admitted in evidence, if

6 that occurred, you would still be at perfect and full liberty to prove

7 that it was not a genuine document. The fact that it's admitted into

8 evidence doesn't remove that capacity from you at all.

9 At the moment on the evidence that was given, especially in view

10 of your comment that you wanted to cross-examine on the document, the

11 Chamber has taken the view that it would be marked for identification.

12 The Chamber could revisit that decision and mark it as an exhibit at the

13 end of the evidence of this witness, or later in the trial if some other

14 evidence comes along.

15 So at the moment, you are dealing with something marked for

16 identification. Mr. Stamp is trying to further his support of the

17 document being received, if I understand what Mr. Stamp is doing

18 correctly.

19 MR. STAMP: That is correct, Your Honours.

20 JUDGE PARKER: And he is at liberty to do that just as you will

21 be able to cross-examine on the document if you wish to during the

22 evidence of the present witness. But at the moment, it is marked for

23 identification. No more, no less.

24 MR. STAMP: Thank you, Your Honours. And I'm grateful for the

25 exposition on the difference between admissibility and weight and

Page 5752

1 probative value. Thank you, I think I'll move on from this document for

2 the time being.

3 Q. General, you said earlier, that from documents that you could see

4 and that were shown to you in this trial and in previous trials, you can

5 see that in the military documents there are tasks issued to MUP units.

6 In respect to that statement, I'd like to ask you -- or I'll just put it

7 to you. You received from the Prosecution over the weekend since you

8 have been here a binder of documents for review, did you?

9 A. Yes, I did.

10 Q. And did you review the documents you received in the binders?

11 A. I reviewed all of them with much attention.

12 Q. Thank you.

13 MR. STAMP: Your Honours, I wish to proceed to go through some

14 military documents, and I'd like to hand him the binders, because there

15 are quite a significant number of them, and it would be much more

16 practical for him to have the binders.

17 JUDGE PARKER: Yes.

18 MR. STAMP: If we could start by looking at one of these

19 documents. Look at item number 4, and this is 65 ter number 02828.

20 2808.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What number?

22 MR. STAMP:

23 Q. Tab 4 in your binder. If you could look at the front -- or, you

24 have studied these documents. You see on the front of the document

25 numbers and various stamps on the front of the document?

Page 5753

1 A. Yes. Since there are many documents here, some date from 1998

2 while I was not in active duty, but this is irrelevant for the 1999

3 period. I would like to say a couple of things. I've perused these

4 documents, and the first thing I want to say is that I'm not a court

5 expert, therefore I cannot confirm the authenticity of each and every of

6 these documents.

7 As a military officer holding even command posts for many years,

8 I've tried to see them from different angles. First of all, the

9 registration number of each of those documents kept in the command of the

10 Pristina Corps in the registration log-book 445 for 1999. So all the

11 documents emanating from the Pristina Corps bear -- the first number is

12 455, and dash 1 means that this is the first combat document of the

13 Pristina Corps in 1999. 455 means that documents registered as combat

14 documents under that number.

15 The second thing I tried to use is the form of the document as it

16 was drafted from the professional point of view, and in all documents,

17 all documents in terms of staff skills, they were correct; they were

18 drafted by a trained military professional who most probably graduated

19 from a high military school. It contains all the requisite elements.

20 And I can state to you that this is a typical military document

21 accordance with the bests of practice.

22 I'm now explaining my method of reviewing all of those documents.

23 In some of them I encountered on information about events that I'm

24 familiar with. For instance, 3rd Army's daily report for the

25 General Staff were at one point discussing the morale in the army. It is

Page 5754

1 explained that a certain number of reserve officers from the 7th Brigade,

2 they left their positions. I know about this event dated 22nd of June

3 because at that time I was in Krusevac trying to resolve the issue of the

4 flight of those soldiers, and I can confirm that this document is

5 authentic because it refers to an event that I personally took part in.

6 So the Prosecutor can ask me questions about each of those documents.

7 I have not found any elements to engender doubt in my mind of any

8 document being falsified, forged, because each of them can be checked and

9 verified in the registration log-book.

10 So the first document that we see is characteristic by the

11 registration number that it bears, 455-1. It's dated 16th of February,

12 the very beginning of the year. The dash -- the numbers to the right of

13 the dash would reach 180 towards the end of the year. So this would be

14 my general remark encompassing all of those documents. Now you have any

15 specific questions, I'm ready to field them.

16 JUDGE PARKER: Yes.

17 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Let's correct the transcript there

18 was something misspoken about the date for the 7th Brigade that he

19 discussed. I suggest that witness should repeat about the date that he

20 thought he was there.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] the second part of May, I believe

22 that it was the 22nd of May. It was immediately preceding my arrival to

23 Kosovo on the 1st of June.

24 MR. STAMP:

25 Q. Can you explain again, please, what the 455 would refer to.

Page 5755

1 Because I'm not sure if you are saying it would refer to the year or

2 would it refer to an activity or a subject matter?

3 A. For each year, commands of brigades and higher would keep their

4 registration log-book. For each year. It begins with the first of

5 January of the current year, ending with the 31st of December of that

6 year. This is the registration log-book of the Pristina Corps for 1999.

7 And 455 denotes combat documents. All the documents I saw are combat

8 documents. So this first digit denotes a problem. And then --

9 Q. Can you just explain what it denotes?

10 A. I don't mean a problem which arose and has to be resolved, but a

11 status, a state of affairs. So 455 denotes combat documents. And all

12 combat documents will be registered under -- into the registration

13 log-book under the sign of 455 and then dash 1, 2, 3, 4, is the number

14 and the sequence number. This is the first document of the

15 Pristina Corps for that year bearing the notation 455, and all combat

16 documents during that year will be marked 455.

17 In the 3rd Army, if I'm not mistaken, that corresponding marking

18 is 878, dash, and then the number.

19 Q. Would the number 455 designate all combat or a particular

20 activity or protocol of activity for a particular type of combat?

21 A. No. This professionally is -- are deemed combat documents.

22 Decisions, orders, dispatches concern combat activities, et cetera,

23 et cetera. Let me help you here. For instance, if supplies had to be

24 procured of blankets for soldiers, it would not be registered under 455,

25 but would be registered under logistics, and that would be 132, dash, the

Page 5756

1 number of the document in sequence. This marking 455 denotes combat

2 documents and everybody knows what combat documents are. Decisions,

3 orders, reports, anything that refers to combat activities.

4 Resubordination of units, relocation and transfer of units, et cetera.

5 Q. Did you also look at the stamps on the front and the end of the

6 document?

7 A. Yes, I did. You received those documents from the

8 Army of Yugoslavia, from their archive. When the archive applied the

9 stamp, reception stamp, it has thereby verified that these are authentic

10 and put in the archive. They wouldn't have been put in the archive had

11 they not been authentic. They were archived most probably together with

12 the registration log.

13 So if we were to go through each and every document and then

14 engender discussion between the Prosecution and Defence whether it's

15 authentic or not, this is why I provided you with this initial overview.

16 The proof that they are not forged or falsified is the -- reflected in

17 this reception stamp by the archive which then avers that these are

18 authentic military documents in the military archive.

19 Q. Okay. I'm going to go through these documents. And having

20 regard to the examination of these documents, the fact that you have seen

21 certain indicia that you have mentioned on the documents, the way that

22 they are written, I would just like you to tell us as whether, a

23 professional military officer, these documents -- if there's any doubt in

24 your mind about the authenticity of these documents on the basis of what

25 you have reviewed.

Page 5757

1 At tab 1 we have 65 ter number 01427.

2 A. Did you mean the document number 1?

3 Q. The document -- when I say tab, I mean the number. The tab is

4 the numbering in the binder. So you pay attention to the numbering in

5 the binder and just mentioning another number for the purpose of the

6 Court.

7 A. Yes, yes.

8 MR. STAMP: I'm sorry. Your Honours, could 02808 be marked for

9 identity, the one before the Court.

10 JUDGE PARKER: The document dated the 16th of February?

11 MR. STAMP: Yes, Your Honours.

12 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Djurdjic, the Chamber in view of the evidence

13 about this document and generally is minded to receive it as an exhibit.

14 Before we do so, do you want to put any submission?

15 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I jump to my feet

16 before anything is admitted, but since I did not raise to my feet which

17 means I have no objection to it being admitted. If I have an objection,

18 I will make sure that you hear it.

19 JUDGE PARKER: Well, in advance of your motion, the Chamber is

20 prepared to receive it as an exhibit. Are you content with that,

21 Mr. Stamp? Yes, Your Honour.

22 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

23 THE REGISTRAR: And that will be assigned P00889, Your Honours.

24 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Djurdjic.

25 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, it's been admitted.

Page 5758

1 I know it is going to be admitted, but this serve the purpose of

2 recognising the form of the document. It dates from a period before the

3 witness was reinstated.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If I am allowed, it's irrelevant

5 whether it dates from 1998 or 1999, whether it's from May when I was

6 reinstated. Even when I was reinstated, I did not have any direct

7 contact with this document because it was not part of my immediate

8 purview.

9 If you were to have to identify each of those documents, you

10 would have to summon each of the officers who can verify. Some of them

11 are in the Detention Unit. And nobody else can tell you about the

12 authenticity. But I'm telling you this, if this bears the military

13 archives' stamp, this means that after the cessation of war activities,

14 those documents were archived. And there's no talk about doubts as to

15 their veracity and authenticity.

16 Even when I was reinstated, documents in May or June, if they are

17 shown to me, I cannot tell you whether what in them is right because they

18 were not part of my purview.

19 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you for that. The order of the Chamber is

20 the document is received as an exhibit.

21 MR. STAMP: Thank you very much, Your Honours.

22 Q. If we could move quickly to document at your tab 1, and it's

23 65 ter number 01427. Did you review that document?

24 A. Number 1, you mean?

25 Q. Number 1, yes, go back to number 1, please.

Page 5759

1 A. Yes, I did read all of them, and I said so.

2 Q. Yes. I know you had said that all of them in your view were

3 authentic. But could you tell us, did this one appear to you to also be

4 authentic?

5 A. It doesn't seem to me to be authentic. I say it's authentic by

6 all the markings that I recognise. There is another number from the

7 registration log, but it dates from another year, 1998. Combative

8 documents were registered in the registration log under the number 873.

9 In 1999, the denotation for a combat document was 455. So you have this

10 marking -- new marking for each year.

11 The signature of General Pavkovic is here visible as well.

12 Q. Thank you.

13 MR. STAMP: Your Honours. Could that document be received in

14 evidence.

15 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

16 THE REGISTRAR: That will be assigned P00890, Your Honours.

17 MR. STAMP:

18 Q. If you could move on to your tab 2, General - and this is -- I

19 think this is P767. This one is already in evidence, I believe.

20 Having reviewed the document, did it have the indicia of being an

21 authentic document, and, General, there are a lot of documents, I don't

22 think it would be responsible for me to ask the Court to sit down while

23 you go through them now. I assume that you had been through them before.

24 So if you could just give me an answer based on what you have

25 done before I would be grateful, so we could move quickly. I'm sorry if

Page 5760

1 I interrupted what you were doing.

2 A. There is a difference pertaining to this document compared to the

3 previous two documents, is that it bears the Joint Command for

4 Kosovo and Metohija; and we see that it bears the same 455 number, which

5 was on the documents of the Pristina Corps in the previous cases. And at

6 the end of the document, it is stated Joint Command. What it went for.

7 In the previous trials I explained the Joint Command as

8 identified as such did not have its own staff, it's organs, or its

9 separate registration log. Whatever was decided there, General Lazarevic

10 subsequently, together with his staff and his officers, would formulate

11 and draft it into a typical military document. And since the

12 Joint Command did not have its own registration log, the combat documents

13 generated by the Joint Command were registered as if they were documents

14 of the command of the Pristina Corps. And this is why it bears sign 455,

15 and I'm repeating the same story all over again.

16 Q. Thanks. Does it have the indicia of authenticity that you

17 described before?

18 A. Yes, this is what I state.

19 Q. Thanks. Tab 3, and this is 04139. Does this also have the

20 indicia of authenticity that you described before?

21 A. Yes. As I said, this is the other number for 1998, and this is

22 880. This is a command of the Pristina Corps document, and it bears the

23 stamp of the military archives.

24 Q. And if you look at the end, you can see that this is one that was

25 signed by General Pavkovic; is that correct?

Page 5761

1 A. That's correct.

2 MR. STAMP: Your Honours, I tender 04139 and ask that it be given

3 an exhibit number.

4 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

5 THE REGISTRAR: And that will be assigned P00891, Your Honours.

6 MR. STAMP:

7 Q. Could you move on to your tab 5.

8 MR. STAMP: And this is 02067. That's the 65 ter number.

9 Q. Does this document also have the indicia of authenticity that you

10 described? In other words, do you have any reason to doubt its

11 authenticity?

12 A. I don't. This was drafted by the command of the 549th Brigade

13 currently commanded by Brigadier Delic. As you can see, the brigade was

14 headquartered in Prizren at the time; and it bears the stamp of the

15 brigade, General Delic's signature is there. And is registered as 1966-2

16 in his registration log, which is a completely different number, but

17 which is characteristic for the register log of 549th Brigade. I have no

18 reason to doubt that his signature is his. The stamps are adequate, and

19 this is all I can say about this.

20 MR. STAMP: Could 02067 be given an exhibit number, Your Honours.

21 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

22 THE REGISTRAR: That will be assigned P00892, Your Honours.

23 MR. STAMP:

24 Q. Tab 6, if you could move on General. This is 02071. Is there

25 any reason to doubt that this is an authentic order?

Page 5762

1 A. No. This is another type of document. This is a dispatch

2 through coded communication sent by the commander of the Pristina Corps.

3 But respective of it being dispatch, it is raised as a combat document

4 under 455. But dash 34 means that it is the 34th in order because it's

5 in March. And number 1 was in February. And as early as in March we

6 have the 34th such document registered.

7 Q. Tab 7 --

8 MR. STAMP: Could that document be received in evidence,

9 Your Honour.

10 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

11 THE REGISTRAR: That will be assigned P00893, Your Honours.

12 Q. This is -- tab 7 is 02072.

13 A. I've seen it. And in 549th Brigade what is characteristic is

14 that the stamp from the registration log is applied at the end of the

15 document and not at the beginning of the document. But this is

16 irrelevant. So 1966 is the same number as in the previous document that

17 we saw pertaining to General Delic. By its form and everything else and

18 by the stamps affixed to it, I -- my assessment is that this is an

19 authentic document.

20 MR. STAMP: Could that be received.

21 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

22 THE REGISTRAR: That will be assigned P00894, Your Honours.

23 MR. STAMP:

24 Q. Tab 8.

25 A. Is the same. This is a short order on resubordination of the

Page 5763

1 scout and sabotage division. It denotes the code or the teleprinter

2 station. Everything corresponds to the forms that I mentioned, the

3 numbers; the number markings correspond to what I said. There's nothing

4 to report.

5 MR. STAMP: I should indicate on the record, Your Honours, that

6 this document was one that we were applying to add to the list. So

7 subject to the decision of the Court, could that be marked for

8 identification?

9 JUDGE PARKER: I'm still waiting for it to come on my screen.

10 MR. STAMP: The 65 ter number is 00531.

11 JUDGE PARKER: This will be marked for identification pending our

12 decision on the Rule 65 list.

13 THE REGISTRAR: And that, Your Honours, will be assigned

14 P00895, MFI.

15 MR. STAMP:

16 Q. Tab 9 is 04276.

17 A. This is an order of the commander of the military district of

18 Pristina and its own registration number, the round stamp. In this

19 order, he issues orders to military sectors and military territorial

20 detachments, bears the signature. I had no occasion to see his signature

21 beforehand; but since it bears the military archives stamp, I assess it

22 is authentic.

23 MR. STAMP: Could that be received, Your Honours.

24 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

25 THE REGISTRAR: That will be assigned P00896, Your Honours.

Page 5764

1 MR. STAMP:

2 Q. Could we move on to tab 10, 04299.

3 A. This is a preparatory order dated 28th of March. One of the

4 early command -- combat activities, the beginning of the aggression.

5 This is a warning order instructing those military units to await further

6 orders. I have no doubt about -- reasons to doubt the authenticity. It

7 bears the military archives stamp, and that is it about it.

8 MR. STAMP: Could 04299 be received.

9 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

10 THE REGISTRAR: And that will be assigned P00897, Your Honours.

11 MR. STAMP:

12 Q. Go to tab 11. And this is 65 ter number 02000.

13 A. I cannot read this document. It is illegible. I wasn't able to

14 see the heading. I can only see the stamp which should be the command of

15 the 549th Brigade. It corresponds to their typical registration log

16 number, but I cannot see the contents at all.

17 Q. But based on the stamp and the --

18 A. Yes. We can see the two last stamps showing also General Delic

19 's signature who was colonel at the time. Judging by the stamps, it was

20 probably an order of his, although I don't know what the contents is. I

21 see in item 4 that it says "I decide" which would be a standard item in

22 any order. I think it falls within the same category as with the

23 previous documents.

24 MR. STAMP: Could 02000 be given an exhibit number, Your Honours.

25 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

Page 5765

1 THE REGISTRAR: And that will be assigned P00898, Your Honours.

2 MR. STAMP:

3 Q. Could you move on to tab 12, 04309.

4 A. I have the same comment. I have no reason to doubt whether this

5 document is true or not.

6 MR. STAMP: Could 04309 also be received, Your Honours.

7 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

8 THE REGISTRAR: And that will be assigned P00899, Your Honours.

9 MR. STAMP:

10 Q. If we move to tab 13. This is 05325.

11 A. Yes. This is the command group of the Pristina Corps having its

12 separate registration log for combat documents. They all bear the

13 number 12. As for this document, it is the 277th document in their log.

14 This is a new number, although it is from the Pristina Corps. This was a

15 separate group which had its own registration log. This would be a

16 standard type on the tasks of the military territorial detachment of

17 Djakovica. I believe it is in keeping with the general principles that

18 were used.

19 MR. STAMP: Your Honours, this is one of the documents that we

20 had applied to be added. So I respectfully ask that it be given -- it be

21 marked for identity subject to the decision of the Chamber.

22 JUDGE PARKER: It will be marked pending decision.

23 THE REGISTRAR: And that will be assigned P00900 MFI,

24 Your Honours.

25 MR. STAMP: Your Honours, I wonder if I could, with the leave of

Page 5766

1 the Court, make a suggestion. We've had the testimony from the witness

2 in respect to all of the documents that he has seen. I must confess that

3 I've never found myself in a situation where in terms of documents of

4 this nature, which are in fact something like business records that are

5 produced in the course of someone's duty, we have to go through them, and

6 there are quite a few. And you know, they have significant points here

7 and there. I don't know if it's really a responsible thing to do to be

8 going through all of these documents in court and using court time for

9 that purpose. I'm wondering if there's a better way to do it.

10 If perhaps we could --

11 JUDGE PARKER: How many more do you have?

12 MR. STAMP: About 60.

13 JUDGE PARKER: How many?

14 MR. STAMP: About 60 more, Your Honours.

15 JUDGE PARKER: Six zero?

16 MR. STAMP: Six zero. Most of these documents previously were

17 agreed upon or were subject to motions, but it was because we have not

18 been having discussions why we have to go through the motions here. But

19 the general has testified about examining them, and I was suggesting that

20 if perhaps we could have a discussion with the Defence now, we could

21 determine which documents we need for him to deal with in court using

22 court time and the other documents we could just submit to the court.

23 I have to confess, I've never gone through documents like these

24 before a court and used so much time before, so I don't know if it's

25 appropriate.

Page 5767

1 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Djurdjic, do you -- are you presently in a

2 position to say whether you object to any of these 60 documents, roughly,

3 number 60?

4 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I tried discussing

5 this with Mr. Stamp over the break, I told him, Well, just put in 100

6 documents, we'll put in another hundred that so we can conclude with

7 this.

8 In any case, if we adopted the principle, this puts me in an

9 awkward position because I haven't put all the documents to the witness

10 that we would seek to tender through this witness; but in principle, I

11 don't believe I will object to any of these documents in terms of

12 authenticity save for the document we have already discussed and that I'm

13 going to discuss with the witness.

14 We believe these documents are all acceptable and the witness

15 said why and how he can confirm that. I would just ask for one thing,

16 that the Prosecutor forwards a list of those documents. We will forward

17 our own. And once we agree on those, which I believe we will, since most

18 or all of these documents are from the previous cases and were exhibited,

19 then we could assign them numbers.

20 We had this instance of a 92 ter document, and we agreed upon it

21 with the Prosecutor. And then Mr. Stamp can only go through those

22 documents that he wants to put to the witness in court, and we have no

23 problem with that.

24 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Djurdjic. The -- it looks as

25 though, Mr. Stamp, your position is now being eased a great deal by

Page 5768

1 Mr. Djurdjic. What is needed is a list of the documents that remain that

2 you wish to tender to be provided first to Mr. Djurdjic. He may identify

3 some as subject to objection, unlikely, or he may identify further

4 documents that he would like tendered so that there can be a combined

5 package of documents.

6 In that list would you please identify any documents which are

7 subject to the Rule 65 ter motion so that we don't by oversight admit

8 them if they are subject to that difficulty.

9 Now, that can occur in the course of the evidence of this

10 witness. The way things are progressing, I would suggest that it be the

11 subject of discussion and decision by tomorrow morning. That ought to be

12 possible. And we can then have the whole remaining agreed group

13 tendered, and they will be received and allotted numbers.

14 MR. STAMP: Yes, Your Honours. May I just make one inquiry. I

15 see Your Honour has indicated that Mr. Djurdjic may identify further

16 documents that he would like to be tendered. Your Honours, I would not

17 be in a position to agree to the Defence documents unless he lays a

18 foundation with the witness. Not all of them I could -- well, not all of

19 them I could agree to, and the situation is slightly different. He, I

20 think, would need to --

21 JUDGE PARKER: You discuss that with Mr. Djurdjic and see where

22 you come to.

23 MR. STAMP: Very well.

24 JUDGE PARKER: But if there can be no agreement, we will have to

25 sit here and go through 60 documents.

Page 5769

1 MR. STAMP: Indeed.

2 JUDGE PARKER: So keep that in mind.

3 MR. STAMP: Thank you very much, Your Honours. I think that this

4 is the appropriate way to go. I was really think about time of the Court

5 more than anything else. There are just two documents I'd like to pay

6 attention to just for the time being, and one of them is P889, and that

7 is your tab 4.

8 Q. And I think you said that this is the first document in respect

9 to the combat activity with the 455 registration number. And this is an

10 order of the Pristina Corps command that you described. If we could now

11 move on to document in your tab 67, and it's 01966.

12 MR. STAMP: And if you could bring that up on the screen so we

13 could have a look at it.

14 Q. This is a Joint Command order.

15 A. Is it document 67?

16 Q. It's document 67, yes, in your tab.

17 A. I may need a moment to get to it. Yes.

18 Q. Does that also bear the indicia of authenticity? Do you have any

19 reason to doubt its authenticity?

20 A. Yes, following the same criteria, I have discussed. This is a

21 document of the Joint Command, but logged under the Pristina Corps

22 number. It was probably drafted by the staff of the Pristina Corps

23 since, professionally speaking, this is a well drafted document.

24 MR. STAMP: I should just point out for the record, Your Honours,

25 this document is D107. The Defence had previously --

Page 5770

1 JUDGE PARKER: 107 or 104?

2 MR. STAMP: 104.

3 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

4 MR. STAMP: Thank you very much, Your Honours.

5 Q. And if we could look at the end of this document. The last part

6 of this document, I think we will see --

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

8 MR. STAMP:

9 Q. That it's unsigned. And --

10 A. No Joint Command document is signed, not one. I've never seen

11 such a document to be signed. It says at the beginning "Joint Command,"

12 then the registration log number is the same indicating the command of

13 the Pristina Corps. I claim that this document as all other

14 Joint Command [Realtime transcript read in error, "Pristina Corps"]

15 documents were drafted by the staff of the Pristina Corps because it is

16 evident that professional expert personnel drafted these as textbook

17 examples.

18 As regards the last item, 13, you are probably interested in the

19 following: Concerning preparation for combat, before the start --

20 Q. General --

21 A. -- and during the combat operations, coordinated action needs to

22 be put in place.

23 Q. Thank you, you had answered my question. I was just interested

24 in your comments on the Joint Command order not being signed, and I'm

25 grateful for those comments.

Page 5771

1 A. You did mention the last item, so I thought you were asking me

2 for a comment.

3 Q. Okay.

4 MR. STAMP: Your Honours --

5 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Djurdjic.

6 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] No objection. Just a correction.

7 Page 58, line 7 and 8, instead of the "Pristina Corps" it should read

8 "Joint Command."

9 JUDGE PARKER: I'm not quite sure where you are saying that

10 should be.

11 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] My associate wrote down

12 page 58, lines 7 and 8. In the transcript we have the "Pristina Corps."

13 It should actually be the "Joint Command."

14 I may be mistaken, I apologise if I'm not correct.

15 JUDGE PARKER: The sentence I think you are referring to is: It

16 says at the beginning Joint Command, then the registration log number is

17 the same indicating the command of the Pristina Corps. Next sentence:

18 "I claim that this document as all other Joint Command documents

19 were drafted by the staff of the Pristina Corps ..."

20 Yes. That is actually lines 11 and 12 in our form. We've got it

21 now identified where it should be, and I think the witness was referring

22 to the Joint Command. Thank you. Thank you for that.

23 Now, Mr. Stamp.

24 MR. STAMP: Thank you very much, Your Honours, having regard to

25 the time, I propose to close the examination-in-chief, with your leave,

Page 5772

1 Your Honours, subject to discussions on the documents. But I was

2 wondering if we could take the break 10 minutes early so I could just

3 have a quick review of what has gone on so far.

4 JUDGE PARKER: Very well. I think it would be practical to give

5 you the break to prepare, Mr. Djurdjic. So we will have the second break

6 now, resuming at 10 minutes to 1.00, and that will give us a final

7 session of 55 minutes. Subject then to what you have indicated, you will

8 close your case when we resume.

9 MR. STAMP: Not so early with closing on the case, Your Honours.

10 Close the examination in the chief of this witness.

11 JUDGE PARKER: Well, I'm living in hope, Mr. Stamp.

12 MR. STAMP: Very well, Your Honours.

13 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

14 [The witness stands down]

15 --- Recess taken at 12.20 p.m.

16 --- On resuming at 12.52 p.m.

17 [The witness takes the stand]

18 JUDGE PARKER: Have you had any reason to change your mind,

19 Mr. Stamp?

20 MR. STAMP: No, Your Honour.

21 JUDGE PARKER: You close your questions, your examination.

22 MR. STAMP: Thank you.

23 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Djurdjic.

24 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. During

25 our discussions with the Prosecution concerning the proposal concerning

Page 5773

1 the exhibits, I hope we will not waste time going through all the

2 documents which are suggested to be tendered, but highlight only those we

3 wish to elaborate upon.

4 Cross-examination by Mr. Djurdjic:

5 Q. Good morning, Witness.

6 A. Good morning.

7 Q. We have Marie O'Leary; together with me, lead counsel; and

8 Alexander Popovic, a member of the Defence team defending

9 General Djordjevic. Before I start with my first question, please tell

10 me, would I have been vetted by your counter-intelligence personnel?

11 A. We do not vet people who are not members of the military, and if

12 there are no indications necessitating such vetting.

13 Q. Thank you. I've read all your statements and everything

14 concerning you, so I'm going to focus only on matters which have not been

15 broached, and we'll follow up on some of your answers during yesterday

16 and today.

17 What I'm interested in, in 1961 when you finished your academy

18 and you performed troop duties at which level were those duties?

19 A. First I was a platoon commander in a training company. There I

20 spent one year. After that I commanded a platoon in the NCO school for

21 two years. These were my troop command duties. It is a practice for

22 security officers not to be admitted after graduation. First they have

23 to perform some troop duties before they may be candidates for security

24 services.

25 Q. Please make a pause between my question and your answer, because

Page 5774

1 we are speaking the same language. And for interpretation purposes, I'll

2 try to wait for your answers to finish.

3 Am I mistaken in believing that you were connected with ABKO or

4 atomic biological chemical and radiological weapons?

5 A. It was not your mistake, I specialised the arm of anti-nuclear

6 biological, chemical, and radiological. This was my specialization.

7 Q. Thank you. For you to the promoted to the rank of general in

8 1988 to 1990 you had to be a commander of a motorised brigade in the

9 7th Army to qualify for the rank of a general, is that correct, or was

10 the procedure different?

11 A. This was not so. I was commander of the 4th Motorised Division

12 in Sarajevo and that is a general post. A post for a rank of general.

13 But in 1973, I changed my military specialty and was transferred from the

14 arm of ABKO into infantry. And then I specialised in the military

15 academy, military arm of infantry and motorised units.

16 Q. Thank you. But you were in Sarajevo army between 1988 and 1990,

17 there is no mistake about that?

18 A. That's correct, no mistake.

19 Q. Thank you. Since you are an expert in counter-intelligence

20 activities, I would like to hear from you what tasks you performed within

21 the VJ up to the point where you occupied the highest positions.

22 A. In security organs, I held duties from clerk to head of

23 department at all levels. I climbed the ladder from security officer in

24 an independent battalion up to head of security of a division and of

25 an -- at an army level, then head of counter-intelligence department in

Page 5775

1 the security administration, deputy head of security administration and

2 then head of security administration. I've gone up that ladder.

3 Q. Could you elaborate upon the reasons for you being decorated with

4 the medal of valour?

5 A. During commanding the operative action shield or Stit aimed as

6 detecting the import of arms into Croatia and the paramilitary

7 organisation of the HDZ in Croatia.

8 Q. Thank you. From 1981 -- 1981 to 1989, please tell us what were

9 the main issues or matters that counter-intelligence within the JNA dealt

10 with?

11 A. 1981 in terms of the work of security services was characteristic

12 by the emergence of organised enemy destructive demonstrations and riots

13 in Pristina. That state of affairs reflected on the security situation

14 in the JNA because we had many conscripts coming from Kosovo who had

15 previously enrolled in illegal organisations and who were tasked with

16 organising illegal groups within the ranks of the JNA to expand their

17 activities and to prepare and carry out terrorist actions.

18 If I may expound on that to describe the general situation as it

19 was. The first illegal group in the army was detected towards the end of

20 1980. In the 7th Army when I was -- the Sarajevo army to be more

21 precise, while I was assistant head of department for

22 counter-intelligence. In the period between 1981 and 1986, we detected a

23 total of 214 illegal groups within the JNA, if I remember correctly. And

24 there were 1.000 to 1200 convicted persons in different periods. They

25 organised for the food in barracks to be poisoned. This was detected

Page 5776

1 early and prevented. There were tens of incidents of theft of military

2 weapons, attempts to escape abroad together with weapons. In the

3 Ljubljana military district they tried to flee to Italy.

4 From the 3rd of September, 1987, there was an illegal group of

5 Albanians in the Paracin barracks; they carried out a terrorist attack

6 they killed 4 soldiers and wounded another 6 soldiers while asleep.

7 Q. Thank you. Let's go back to 1981, please. Do you remember what

8 were the basic demands that the Albanian separatist organisations put

9 forth at the time?

10 A. Until the 17th of February, 1982, there were four major illegal

11 organisations in Kosovo. The leadership of those organisations was

12 mainly abroad in Switzerland, in Germany, and Sweden. Their manifestos,

13 their programs, were very similar. The main thesis was Kosovo republic.

14 The differences was in the nuances. There were Marxist-Leninist options,

15 some were democratic options.

16 Until the 7th of February, 1982, as I said, the military service

17 that I worked in at the time in the Sarajevo army by that time I had

18 become head of security. At the beginning of 1984, that service detected

19 that those four organisations merged into a single organisation which

20 bore the hallmarks of a movement. And the title of that movement, the

21 name was, Movement for Kosovo as a republic within the Yugoslavia.

22 Leadership comprised four members from the so-called old guard of

23 Albanian dissident, four members were the young guard. Those who had

24 emigrated from Kosovo abroad after 1981.

25 What is characteristic is that it had committees throughout

Page 5777

1 Yugoslavia, from Slovenia, Bosnia-Herzegovina, to Macedonia, and

2 Montenegro. You may probably remember the Tetevo illegal group and

3 another group in the vicinity of Bar in Montenegro. They formed a

4 military committee within the JNA. It numbered 10 members, we detected

5 them in a coded action Zlatar. They were tried in the -- before the

6 military court in Sarajevo in 1986.

7 Q. We will go back to that operation and that trial, but please do

8 explain what "Kosovo republic" means as a demand which appeared in 1981?

9 A. Kosovo republic was a slogan that was supposed to rally the

10 Albanians around. And the intent was that it -- Kosovo should be given a

11 status of republic at any cost, including armed battles. When we

12 discussed with the apprehended -- this with the apprehended members of

13 that organisation, they were convinced that the autonomous province had

14 all the prerequisites and authorities of a republic. The only thing they

15 lacked was a minister of foreign affairs.

16 Their structures and organs were an integral part of the then

17 Yugoslav structures, they also had something akin to a Supreme Command

18 within the existing structures. The young people laboured under the

19 illusion that something would be changed if they were labelled Kosovo.

20 From Albania they received instructions and convictions that if Kosovo

21 were to become a republic, that it could secede from Yugoslavia and the

22 ultimate goal was to merge Kosovo into Albania.

23 Q. Thank you. Mr. General, am I right when I say that that slogan

24 meant the territorial disintegration of the territory of Serbia and the

25 establishment of a new state because only republics in the former

Page 5778

1 Yugoslavia were states and autonomous provinces did not have the

2 hallmarks of states?

3 A. The problem was not in them getting elements of a statehood. The

4 present set-up had hallmarks of statehood. For instance, the head of the

5 provincial state security service, he practically was not subordinated to

6 the head of Serbian state security but to the federal SUP, S-U-P

7 Secretariat for Internal Affairs. The same way that representatives of

8 autonomous provinces had a place at the table in the federal Presidency.

9 As I explained, this was only the first stage. The goal was not

10 to get a status of a republic within the Yugoslavia, the ultimate goal

11 was to secede from Yugoslavia and to merge into Albania. And the

12 Albanian security and intelligence services had a great role because they

13 fed those slogans and supported the work of such legal groups from

14 abroad.

15 Q. Let's discuss this Zlatar Operation and the role of Albanian

16 ethnic officers in the JNA in that -- those activities.

17 A. The Zlatar counter-intelligence operation detected the entire

18 leadership of that organisation abroad and in the country. As I've said

19 already, by that time, there was an illegal committee that had been

20 formed within the JNA, comprising ten members. Through operative work

21 and through a source who was an Albanian officer - and I must say that it

22 wasn't Serbs who discovered the organisation, but this particular

23 Albanian - through those sources, 127 members of that organisation were

24 detected from Montenegro down to Tetevo.

25 For one to be made a member of the organisation, one needed to

Page 5779

1 give an oath as well as collect a certain amount of live ammunition

2 whilst simultaneously working on purchasing illegal weapons. Their

3 activities were cut off at the moment when they began planning concrete

4 terrorist actions. They wanted to plant explosives in the town hall in

5 Djakovica as well as to bring down the power supply lines between Obilic

6 and Skopje. They also wanted to use a sniper rifle to kill three state

7 security operatives of the provincial service in Kosovo. In order to

8 stop those activities, and having discovered a part in the army, we

9 carried out arrests of 127 members.

10 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: 126.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And through follow-up operations,

12 there was a total of 400 persons arrested throughout Yugoslavia. Some

13 people from the illegal JNA committee later on participated in the Siptar

14 terrorist actions in 1998.

15 One of the people I recall off the cuff is Maljoku, Naim. He

16 used to be kept on first class in the JNA, and in Kosovo he was tasked

17 with a particular zone. Then Ahmed Krasniqi who was a JNA major and also

18 a member of that illegal organisation, he held a command function in

19 Kosovo. And as far as I know, Albanians liquidated him in Tirana towards

20 the end.

21 They had two factions, one was more extremist and believed that

22 only an armed struggle could result in anything. And the other faction

23 was around the prime minister, or deputy prime minister of the government

24 in exile, Mr. Bukoshi. To a certain extent, he was more democratic; and

25 they were trying to persuade the international community that Albanians