Page 8276
1 Monday, 24 August 2009
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 2.16 p.m.
5 JUDGE PARKER: Good afternoon. We'll move into private session
6 for the witness.
7 [Private session]
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25 [Open session]
Page 8285
1 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.
2 MR. STAMP: With your leave, Your Honours, I shall proceed to
3 read a brief summary of the evidence of the witness.
4 The witness was a member of the PJP and served in Kosovo in 1998
5 and 1999. The witness's evidence describes the structure, selection, and
6 training of the PJP during this period. It also describes the chain of
7 command and areas of responsibility within the PJP. In addition, he
8 describes additional forces that he encountered working in conjunction
9 with the PJP such as the JSO and the SAJ
10 Russian volunteers within the PJP.
11 He will describe joint MUP/VJ operations -- not will -- he
12 described joint MUP/VJ operations in 1999 throughout Kosovo, particularly
13 events in the Drenica and Bajgora area. During these operations Serb
14 forces looted and torched Albanian villages and also committed acts of
15 violence against civilians.
16 The witness further describes joint or described joint MUP/VJ
17 operations involving his PJP unit throughout Kosovo, including at
18 Orahovac in July 1998 and in September in Drenica, Cicavica, Srbica,
19 Jexerske, and Stari Trg. During all of these operations, civilians were
20 beaten and killed and there were some women raped and villages destroyed.
21 In September at Bajgora he witnessed the murder of three men and
22 two women, one of whom was raped, and the torching of houses by members
23 of the PJP, and later the murder of an old woman and a mentally ill young
24 man by persons who were members of this unit.
25 He also witnessed the beating and murder of two young men by
Page 8286
1 members of thee PJP on the Suva Reka-Pristina road, and in the town of
2 Glogovac the murder of two civilians by the police who were ordered to
3 lie down and then shot. The witness also describes groups of refugees
4 that he saw in 1998 numbering 5 to 20.000 and the robbing of those
5 refugees by members of the PJP and the looting of the villages that they
6 were coming from.
7 He further described similar operations and results in 1999
8 throughout Kosovo, in particular the murder of three civilians in
9 Drobodeljani and in Pagarusa valley by policemen from his unit on the
10 25th of March, 1999; the murder of civilians by members of his unit at
11 Korisa and Velika Krusa in -- during the indictment period of 1999; and
12 the expulsion of Kosovo Albanians from their homes in Ljubizda; and on
13 the 3rd of April, 2nd to 3rd of April, he witnessed massive columns of
14 refugees some 30 kilometres long on the Suva Reka-Prizren road.
15 He relates or related in his testimony that orders were sent down
16 the chain of command to his unit to loot, murder, and expel
17 Kosovo Albanians and torch the houses, and he received these orders from
18 his company commander. And he further describes the general failure to
19 punish MUP members for those crimes.
20 That is the summary of the testimony, Your Honours.
21 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Popovic.
22 MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I didn't actually
23 understand this to mean that my colleague has concluded his presentation,
24 but I would like to ask for some clarification because the summary read
25 out by Mr. Stamp is not the summary that the Defence received under
Page 8287
1 Rule 65 ter. We have a completely different summary. This is just a
2 re-telling of what the witness said in the course of his testimony in the
3 Milutinovic case with many more details. So this is why I wanted to
4 intervene, but since Mr. Stamp has concluded his summary that would be
5 it. Thank you.
6 MR. STAMP: Yes, Your Honour, it is not the 65 ter summary. The
7 65 ter summary was done before the witness testified. This is a summary
8 of what he actually said under oath in evidence which is before the Court
9 now -- and of course as I think the Court pointed out on a previous
10 occasion, this is not the evidence.
11 JUDGE PARKER: This is a procedural order that has been made in
12 the course of the trial. As a great deal of evidence is being tendered
13 by way of a statement, to enable those who are following the trial to
14 have a basic understanding of what is being put into evidence. Those
15 tendering written statements as evidence are providing a brief summary of
16 their content. They do not form part of the evidence, the summaries,
17 they are merely to enable those watching and following the trial to
18 understand a little of the essential points.
19 So thank you for that, Mr. Stamp. Do you now have particular
20 matters with which you are --
21 MR. STAMP: Yes, Your Honour --
22 JUDGE PARKER: -- going to proceed? Thank you.
23 (redacted)
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2 MR. STAMP: Your Honours, I think we should have gone into
3 private session from the moment I brought out the photograph, so I would
4 ask that we go there now and --
5 JUDGE PARKER: Private. Do you need redactions?
6 MR. STAMP: Yes, Your Honours.
7 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
8 [Private session]
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18 [Open session]
19 MR. STAMP: And that is all I have in chief, Your Honours.
20 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.
21 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
22 MR. STAMP: Thank you very much, Your Honours.
23 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Stamp.
24 Mr. Popovic.
25 MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] I would just like to ask you for
Page 8296
1 some time to get organised.
2 Cross-examination by Mr. Popovic:
3 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Witness K79. I am Defence
4 counsel Aleksandar Popovic, I am on the Defence team defending
5 Mr. Djordjevic. I am accompanied by Ms. Marie O'Leary and
6 Mr. Djordjevic. And before I start cross-examining you, I would like to
7 ask you, in light of the fact that we both speak the same language, to
8 speak slowly and to wait for me to finish my question, make a pause, and
9 then start your answer in order to facilitate the interpreters' job.
10 Could you please tell me, am I right if I say that you have
11 testified three times or you gave three statements so far, the first time
12 to a prosecutor of the war crimes court in Belgrade.
13 MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, but before I ask this,
14 perhaps it would be better to go into private session when we discuss
15 those statements. Perhaps it would be a good idea.
16 JUDGE PARKER: Private.
17 [Private session]
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25 [Open session]
Page 8299
1 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.
2 MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. Could you tell us, when did you join the PJP?
4 A. In August 1998.
5 Q. Thank you. And did you become a member of a reserve PJP unit or
6 an active PJP unit? because you've described this.
7 A. I became a member of an active unit. Before that I was a member
8 of the reserve force of this unit.
9 Q. Thank you. And could you tell me, what is the difference between
10 the reserve and the active unit and what is -- what was the reason and in
11 what manner did you transfer from the reserve unit to the active unit as
12 you've told us?
13 A. The active police units had special assignments. The reserve
14 force was a reserve force, and at the request of the commander of the PJP
15 company I moved to join the active component.
16 Q. Thank you. Am I right in saying that when you weren't engaged as
17 a PJP member, that you went about the daily duties that policemen do;
18 would that be right?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Can you tell us what your tasks were when you went about your
21 daily business and when you weren't actively participating in the PJPs?
22 A. Well, patrol work, duty, shifts, and so on, the regular type of
23 police work.
24 Q. Thank you. Can you tell us whether the PJP units were
25 established for the territory of the whole of Serbia?
Page 8300
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Thank you. Were the PJP units used throughout the territory of
3 Serbia
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Thank you. Am I right in saying that the PJP units were used,
6 for example, to break up demonstrations in Belgrade and Novi Sad
7 instance?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Thank you. I should now like to go back to your testimony. Am I
10 right in saying that you were aware of the conduct of members of the PJP,
11 that is to say only your own and the Prizren detachment? And I'm
12 referring to 1998 and 1999 in Kosovo, the subject you testified about in
13 actual fact.
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. When you spoke about the conduct and behaviour of the members of
16 these two detachments, can you tell us how many men those two detachments
17 numbered? You needn't be precise, but roughly speaking how many men did
18 they have?
19 A. Well, both detachments had between 250 to 300 members, both the
20 Prizren detachment -- well, no, did you ask me about the detachment or
21 company?
22 Q. Detachment.
23 A. Right. I don't know which detachment was in Prizren, but as for
24 the Nis Detachment it had 500 or 600 men and the Prizren company between
25 150 to 200 men roughly. It wasn't the Prizren detachment, it was the
Page 8301
1 Prizren company.
2 Q. So when you're referring to the conduct of the PJP in Kosovo, you
3 are, in fact, referring to the members of your particular detachment and
4 the Prizren company; is that right?
5 A. A certain number of those members of the Prizren company and my
6 company.
7 Q. Am I right in saying that your detachment and the Prizren company
8 numbered about 700 to 750 men.
9 A. Yes, that would be roughly right.
10 Q. Thank you. Now, with that number of men, 700 or 750 that you've
11 just referred to, in following your testimony in the Milutinovic trial I
12 managed to see that you mentioned some ten men, perhaps even less, a
13 number of ten or less who in your words committed crimes; am I right in
14 saying that?
15 A. Yes, that's right.
16 Q. Thank you. Am I also right in saying that this group, the one
17 you mentioned, the people according to you who committed crimes, in fact
18 is less than 2 per cent of the total number of PJP members that you're
19 referring to? I don't need you to state your opinion about the
20 percentages, but all I'm asking is: Am I right that we're talking about
21 a very small group of people that you're testifying about as being
22 individuals who committed crimes in Kosovo? Would that be right?
23 A. Yes, I agree with you.
24 Q. Am I right in saying that this kind of conduct and this kind of
25 behaviour, if it happened in the way it did, that most of the other PJP
Page 8302
1 members, if not all of them, did not agree with that kind of behaviour
2 and conduct?
3 A. Yes, that's right, most of the men did not agree with that kind
4 of behaviour.
5 Q. Thank you.
6 MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, may we move into
7 private session now, please.
8 JUDGE PARKER: Private.
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4 [Open session]
5 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.
6 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
7 My apologies for not having gone back into open court earlier,
8 but the witness has now concluded his evidence and I turn now to
9 Mr. Stamp.
10 MR. STAMP: Your Honours, we scheduled Shyhrete Dula, she's not
11 protected -- no, I'm sure she's not protected, to be followed by K20.
12 K20 I have learnt is ill, she would be the back-up witness, and
13 Shyhrete Dula had gone out of the Netherlands
14 today. She has not yet returned and therefore she's not available. I
15 understand she's on her way or she's expected to return sometime today,
16 but we cannot give a time as to when she will return. In the
17 circumstances, we have no other witnesses today because both of the
18 scheduled witnesses are absent.
19 JUDGE PARKER: Well, those circumstances have occurred. I think
20 it was not to be anticipated that this last witness would be so quick.
21 MR. STAMP: Indeed.
22 JUDGE PARKER: So we accept those circumstances. We are, though,
23 anxious as to the progress of the witnesses that remain to be heard
24 before we have another break. Do you think you will conclude those
25 witnesses in time?
Page 8321
1 MR. STAMP: Yes, Your Honour. We scheduled for the last week,
2 which may be a problematic week, only one witness that we think might
3 take a significant amount of time depending upon the Defence. Another
4 witness, although an important witness, we don't expect that witness
5 would take a significant amount of time. So we believe that we would be
6 able get through the witnesses in that period.
7 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. That includes Mr. Coo, does it?
8 MR. STAMP: Mr. Coo, I believe, is scheduled for this week.
9 JUDGE PARKER: Yes.
10 MR. STAMP: And we anticipate that he should be completed this
11 week.
12 JUDGE PARKER: Well, we'll look forward to the completion of the
13 programme witnesses before we break, Mr. Stamp.
14 MR. STAMP: Very well, Your Honours. I wonder if I could mention
15 something since Your Honour raised the issue of the remaining witnesses.
16 Before the vacation I had indicated that there were some witnesses who,
17 for a variety of reasons, would not be available to testify. And I was
18 going to inquire informally what was the best way to notify the parties.
19 I don't think I need to do so in a filing. I'm wondering if perhaps I
20 could make the announcement formally in court --
21 JUDGE PARKER: You certainly could. There's no need for a
22 filing. The important thing is to let the Chamber and the Defence know
23 so that we don't waste time in preparation on witnesses who are not going
24 to be called.
25 MR. STAMP: Very well, I will communicate that by some memorandum
Page 8322
1 to the parties.
2 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Stamp. I'm sure Mr. Djurdjic and
3 the Chamber will be interested to receive your communication --
4 Mr. Djordjevic I see is here, not Mr. Djurdjic.
5 Very well, is there any other matter that either counsel needs to
6 raise? If not, we will adjourn for the day, to resume tomorrow morning
7 at 9.00.
8 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 4.48 p.m.
9 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 25th day of
10 August, 2009, at 9.00 a.m.
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