Page 10056
1 Monday, 14 December 2009
2 [Open session]
3 [The witness takes the stand]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.05 a.m.
5 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Stamp.
6 MR. STAMP: Thank you very much, Your Honours. Thank you,
7 Your Honours, and good morning.
8 WITNESS: VLASTIMIR DJORDJEVIC [Resumed]
9 [Witness answered through interpreter]
10 Cross-examination by Mr. Stamp: [Continued]
11 Q. Good morning, Mr. Djordjevic.
12 A. Good morning.
13 MR. STAMP: If we could bring, immediately, P137.
14 Q. This is an order or a dispatch of the 18th of March, 1999, I
15 think signed by you.
16 MR. STAMP: If we could look at the next page in B/C/S. Could we
17 look at the bottom in B/C/S of this page.
18 Q. Signed on your behalf, and it dispatches PJP personnel on
19 rotation to Kosovo. And I think you indicated that this was the
20 classical or the standard type of dispatch, and we have seen many of
21 those in evidence.
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Was this a -- was this document necessary or required before PJP
24 personnel could be sent from the SUPs in Serbia on assignment in Kosovo?
25 A. Yes, it was required.
Page 10057
1 Q. And I -- well, that's out of the question.
2 They were required to be signed by you or at least signed in the
3 capacity of the chief of public security?
4 A. After the decision of the minister, this was a logistical matter.
5 Most frequently it would be signed by me, but given that this is a
6 routine activity, if I happened to be absent -- it simply didn't depend
7 on my signature or on somebody else's signature. These units had to be
8 replaced and new units had to be sent pursuant to the decision of the
9 minister, so this is a purely technical matter.
10 Q. Yeah, could it be signed by anybody or in the capacity of anybody
11 but the chief of public security?
12 A. Well, we have seen that documents like these were signed by
13 others. They were signed by me but by others as well. As I have told
14 you, this is a purely formal matter. This is not a decision that
15 anything else depended upon. This simply gave information on what
16 direction the units should take, to whom they should report, what funds
17 they were to be given. These were just the routine instructions that
18 were normally given.
19 Q. But I see that all of them that we have - and there are quite a
20 few of them in evidence - are signed either by you or by someone else for
21 you as chief of public security. Is there a reason for that?
22 A. I don't know what you have in mind when you ask "is there a
23 reason." I don't know how to answer this.
24 Q. Well, could any other functionary in the public security section
25 issue those dispatches or orders?
Page 10058
1 A. As I have said, this is not an order on activating units. This
2 is a purely formal matter, giving information on which unit was to go
3 where. It could have been signed by anybody else; but given that it was
4 being sent to a number of secretariats, then they used my authority or
5 somebody who was in my position. So I happened to sign this most
6 frequently, but there were also many cases where instead of me some other
7 person signed it.
8 Q. Could we move on to look at P144. Incidentally, before we get to
9 this document, did the minister -- did the minister's order deploying the
10 PJP to Kosovo, was that a written order?
11 A. Your question is not precise enough. Pursuant to a written order
12 of deploying PJP in Kosovo -- there were actually no written orders
13 deploying PJPs in Kosovo by minister. Minister would issue a decision
14 saying that such and such units were to be sent to Kosovo in order to
15 carry out tasks. Following that, there would be this technical action
16 taken that units are to report to the staff, that they're placed at the
17 disposal of the staff, and that the staff could use those units pursuant
18 to the decision of the minister on establishing the staff of
19 anti-terrorist activities in Kosovo.
20 Q. Yes, but the decision of the minister, saying that such units
21 were to be sent to Kosovo in order to carry out tasks, was that decision
22 or those decisions written decisions?
23 A. No. As far as I know, those were verbal orders both for
24 special police unit and for Special Anti-Terrorist Unit and for the
25 special operations unit of the state security department.
Page 10059
1 Q. And you cannot recall at any time these deployments being the
2 subject of any written orders by the minister?
3 A. The order of the minister on establishing the staff specified
4 that all attached units were to be placed at the disposal of the staff,
5 that the staff planned their activities and was in charge and had the
6 command over those activities. Therefore, based on that decision, the
7 minister basically authorised the staff to be in charge of all the units
8 that had been attached and were sent there. He did not write orders
9 specifying that such and such a unit was sent to Kosovo and so on. No.
10 Those orders were verbal. However, the attachment of units to the staff
11 in Kosovo was regulated in the decision on establishing the staff in
12 Kosovo.
13 Q. Okay. Before you -- we could move on. Before you we have a
14 decision transferring or terminating or a decision of the completion of
15 deployment of Mr. Milan Cankovic. Who had been carrying out tasks -- MUP
16 staff tasks in Pristina. This one is signed by you. And we have seen
17 others like this. Without going through them, apart from yourself or the
18 minister, was any other functionary in the MUP authorised to sign these
19 documents as terminating or appointing to certain positions -- well, not
20 certain positions, to positions in the MUP staff? And since that
21 question is a little bit muddled, let me just ask it again.
22 You signed some of these orders, and I think we have seen where
23 the minister signed some of these orders. Apart from you or the
24 minister, was any other functionary in the MUP entitled or authorised to
25 sign orders terminating or appointing MUP staff?
Page 10060
1 A. Nobody else except for minister could issue decisions on sending
2 somebody to perform duties of a member of the staff in Pristina. That
3 type of decision could only be issued by the minister. The minister
4 could authorise me to issue a decision on terminating somebody's
5 engagement in Kosovo or a decision regulating some matters of employment
6 status relating to salary and so on. But I could issue such decisions
7 only pursuant to an authorisation of the minister.
8 Q. Yes, and --
9 A. And I did issue such decisions.
10 Q. And these decisions, only you were -- and I'm just asking based
11 on those that I have seen and those which are in evidence here. Only you
12 were authorised to sign these orders?
13 A. Yes. In cases where minister authorised me, then I in accordance
14 with the then-existing regulations could act in accordance with the
15 authorisation given by him. I think that some other officials did not
16 receive that type of authorisation from the minister.
17 Q. By what means - and I'm moving on to another topic quite quickly
18 since we are moving quickly this morning - by what means did you
19 communicate with the special unit commanders, PJP commanders, members of
20 the staff, people like Mr. Lukic and Mr. Stevanovic during March, April,
21 May of 1999?
22 I think you said earlier you had been in contact with them when
23 the telephone lines were up and running. And you certainly wasn't --
24 well, you were certainly in contact with them during this period,
25 especially when some of the personnel were killed, you would be in touch
Page 10061
1 with them on that score. But by what means would you be in touch with
2 them?
3 A. First of all, you have quite expanded the circle of people to
4 whom I talked during the war in Kosovo. I have already stated here that
5 I didn't speak to any SUP
6 war. I also didn't speak to the commander or the commanders of the
7 special unit either, except in relation to Kosovo-related events. After
8 that, I had absolutely no contacts with any other unit commanders or any
9 other chief of SUP
10 Sreten Lukic or Obrad. I would normally speak to them if I was
11 supposed to go down to Kosovo and I would call them up and say, "I'm coming
12 down, where are we going to meet?" This is when I went on the 18th or
13 –-that's actually when this was. So this is how I communicated with them.
14 Q. Okay. Very well --
15 A. If they had some sort of information on some members being
16 killed --
17 Q. You would call them by what means?
18 A. On the telephone when possible. I had no other means of
19 communication. If the telephone worked, then, yes, I could talk to them
20 concerning the matters that I have just described to you.
21 Q. Did you mention just now mobile telephones?
22 A. I didn't say that. I said simply "by telephone if possible." I
23 didn't say "mobile telephone."
24 Q. Were there any types of special communications or any special
25 means of communicating with them apart from the telephones? In case of
Page 10062
1 emergency, for example.
2 A. There were experts here who answered in detail your questions --
3 Q. No, no. No --
4 A. -- here and their task was to inform you in detail on means of
5 communication. I wasn't aware of any other means of communication except
6 telephone when possible.
7 Q. That's what I'm asking. I'm not asking you -- I'm asking you
8 what you did, which is of the principal importance here.
9 MR. STAMP: Your Honours, if I could bring up 06004.
10 JUDGE PARKER: Is this document an exhibit that's presently on
11 the screen?
12 MR. STAMP: Yes, Your Honour, it's already exhibited.
13 JUDGE PARKER: That's P137, is that it?
14 MR. STAMP: No, I think it's P144 now on the screen.
15 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
16 MR. STAMP:
17 Q. This is the record of the testimony of Mr. Slobodan Borisavljevic
18 before the district court in Belgrade
19 just to orient yourself, Slobodan Borisavljevic in 1999 was your chef de
20 cabinet; that's correct?
21 A. I think that he was during some period of time in 1999 as well.
22 Whether there was a change in the meantime, I can't remember, but yes he
23 was.
24 MR. STAMP: Could we look at page 8 of the English. And I think
25 that's also page 8 of the B/C/S.
Page 10063
1 Q. Are you, Mr. Djordjevic, seeing a point where the deputy
2 Prosecutor asks:
3 "Were you getting the reports on movements of your units and
4 their activities in Kosovo?"
5 A. I can't see it here. I see that he says that there had been some
6 reports where there was no information on the crimes. I see that in the
7 beginning, but I don't see what you are referring me to.
8 Q. I think I probably have it wrong -- is it there -- I understand
9 it is there now. He said:
10 "General information went through dispatches about the important
11 events, but specifically about this activities considering the war
12 circumstances everything was hindered and I think we weren't getting it.
13 Mainly that went orally, through the special communications that we had."
14 And the deputy Prosecutor asked:
15 "Who received these oral reports?"
16 And Mr. Borisavljevic said:
17 "General Djordjevic received oral reports, according to the lines
18 of work, chiefs of administrations, and from the Chief of Staff. The
19 Chief of Staff was at that time now Colonel -- at that time General, now
20 Colonel, Sreten Lukic, who contacted directly by telephone by the
21 special" -- and I don't think the translator got it, "but contacted by
22 telephone by the special General Djordjevic."
23 And he was asked:
24 "... what did these reports refer to?"
25 And he said:
Page 10064
1 "Well, they referred to -- concretely in the case of Kosovo and
2 Metohija, they referred to the terrorist activity of these Albanian
3 terrorists. It means at the time I know that in the period from December
4 all until the beginning of the bombardment there were especially wide and
5 intensive activities of the Albanian terrorists."
6 Firstly, what special communications is he referring to, do you
7 know?
8 A. Throughout Serbia
9 which was discussed here by experts from that field. However, during the
10 war - as they also said - due to damage of the relay systems, these
11 special systems would either work or would not work. So that is one
12 question, and you were informed about that in detail here.
13 What Slobodan Borisavljevic is speaking of here are questions
14 that are contained in regular reports that we had occasion to see quite a
15 few times here. So this has to do with regular information about
16 significant events and occurrences in Kosovo. One particular piece of
17 information had to do with the activity of Albanian terrorists.
18 So there is not a single report here or a single piece of
19 information that had come here, as he says here, that I spoke on the
20 telephone. He was in another office and then he knows that I spoke on
21 the phone -- but never mind. In all his reports that we saw here, he
22 made no claims that I was ever informed about how and in which way units
23 were being used in anti-terrorist or combat activities. So he is
24 speaking arbitrarily here about me speaking to them.
25 And secondly, in everything we saw him say here, there is no
Page 10065
1 reference to combat reports from Kosovo because there weren't any.
2 Q. Well, he says quite specifically upon the specific question being
3 asked that you received oral reports from General Lukic about the
4 anti-terrorist activities in Kosovo. Wouldn't your chef de cabinet --
5 wouldn't your chef de cabinet be in a position to know what reports you
6 are receiving?
7 A. Oh, please, please. Could you be more precise. Please. He did
8 not say that I was communicator over the telephone with Sreten Lukic
9 about anti-terrorist activity, that is to say combat activity of the
10 units that were down there.
11 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...
12 A. What he's talking about here is --
13 Q. Let me read what he says.
14 A. Well, do read it.
15 Q. Maybe there is a translation issue. He says:
16 "General Djordjevic received oral reports according to the lines
17 of work, chiefs of the administrations, and from the Chief of Staff,
18 Chief of Staff was at the time General, now Colonel Sreten Lukic, who
19 contacted directly by telephone by the special General Djordjevic.
20 "... what did these reports refer to?"
21 And later on:
22 "Well, they referred to concretely in the case of
23 Kosovo and Metohija, they referred to the terrorist activities of these
24 Albanian terrorists ..."
25 That's what he's saying. Sreten Lukic reported to you about
Page 10066
1 the --
2 A. Oh, please. He is saying here in principle that he received oral
3 reports, General Djordjevic received oral reports, concerning lines of
4 work from chiefs of administrations.
5 Q. And what does he say about Sreten Lukic, what does he say about
6 that?
7 A. I don't even know what Slobodan Borisavljevic is saying, let
8 alone Sreten Lukic. So Slobodan Borisavljevic does not say here whether
9 I spoke twice or three times during the time war was being waged there,
10 let alone could he say what it was that I discussed with Sreten Lukic.
11 So this is a very general matter. Of course he, as the chef de cabinet,
12 knew that over the telephone I could talk. Now, whether I did talk, how
13 many times, what it was that we discussed, that is something that the
14 chef de cabinet does not know. He is making assumptions here.
15 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...
16 A. And whether I spoke five times during this period of time or
17 twice, how could he know? He is not saying that I had regular contacts
18 and that he reported to me about this and that and that I ordered him to
19 do this or that. He was no witness of that kind. He does not know about
20 that. I had my own office. The telephone was in my own office. I had
21 my own telephone. He doesn't know about this. He was not present when I
22 made telephone -- my own telephone conversations. His assumptions can be
23 whatever.
24 Q. So I think that's the answer to my question. The question was:
25 You are saying that your chef de cabinet does not know or would not know
Page 10067
1 who was reporting up to you and what the reports were? Is that what
2 you're saying?
3 A. The chef de cabinet was not with me in my office when I talked to
4 any chief of administration, either in person or over the telephone. He
5 was not in my office when I spoke to Sreten Lukic or Obrad Stevanovic or
6 to the minister or any other person; he cannot testify about that. He
7 cannot know whether I had contacts, how many contacts, let alone about
8 what it was that we had discussed.
9 Q. During the war, March, April, May, June, you -- did you become
10 aware of protests and complaints by leading figures in the international
11 community about allegations of crimes committed against civilians by the
12 security forces in Kosovo?
13 MR. STAMP: And while we are waiting for that answer, could we
14 bring up 65 ter number 00399.
15 Q. Did you hear of the complaints or the protests from persons in
16 the international arena about allegations of the misconduct of the
17 Serb -- of the forces of the FRY and Serbia
18 Kosovo in respect to their treatment of civilians?
19 A. As far as I can see --
20 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...
21 A. -- this was sent on the 26th of March, 1999, to
22 President Milan Milutinovic.
23 Q. Mr. Djordjevic, I will ask you about this shortly and you will be
24 able to say what you want. I'm just asking you during that period,
25 March, April, May, June 1999, did you hear that there were allegations
Page 10068
1 that the forces of the FRY and Serbia
2 Kosovo were committing crimes against civilians, Kosovo Albanian
3 civilians?
4 A. No letter was sent to me from these international structures. I
5 was not aware of any crimes. I've already told you what it was that I
6 knew about or these claims from international institutions. My
7 attention, my attention was primarily focused on the territory of Serbia
8 outside Kosovo and Metohija. That is what I was responsible for to the
9 minister, and really at that time I was not in a position to read this or
10 did anyone send me personally any letter from international
11 representatives.
12 Q. Yes. I wanted to make a distinction here so you understand what
13 I'm asking you. I'm not asking whether or not the crimes were committed
14 or whether you knew that crimes were committed; I'm asking you about
15 allegations that there were crimes committed against Kosovo Albanian
16 civilians in Kosovo. Are you saying that in that period you never even
17 heard a whisper of an allegation that crimes were being committed against
18 Kosovo Albanian civilians by the Serbian security forces?
19 A. I had no concrete knowledge, nor did I read about or did I hear
20 about any reports or letters that were sent to one address or several
21 addresses from these structures. As for general stories, general
22 knowledge, perhaps there was something like that to the effect that
23 something was happening somewhere. There was a war going on. I did not
24 know anything specific or did I have the task to do anything in relation
25 to that.
Page 10069
1 So I was not familiarised with these documents that were sent by
2 the international community. They were not sent to me. And I had no
3 opportunity to familiarise myself with what they were saying.
4 In the territory that I was responsible for, at that period of
5 time there was terrible destruction going on and terrible crimes were
6 being committed. So my --
7 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...
8 A. -- attention was focused on what --
9 Q. Yes, I -- we know about the rest of Serbia and that there was a
10 war going on. Well, let us look at this letter. This was sent to the
11 head of the Serbian government, Mr. Milutinovic, somebody that you would
12 attend meetings in his presence. It refers to the current reports of
13 escalating violence in Kosovo, and I'm looking at the second paragraph.
14 MR. STAMP: And maybe, just for the record, I should say that
15 this is a letter of the 26th of March, 1999, from Louise Arbour,
16 then-Prosecutor of this Tribunal.
17 Q. And it says:
18 "... in the light of current reports of escalating violence in
19 Kosovo, I am gravely concerned that serious violations of international
20 humanitarian law continue to be committed."
21 And she also in the last paragraph says:
22 "Meanwhile, I believe that everything must be done to deter the
23 commission of future crimes. I therefore look to you to exercise your
24 authority over your subordinates; to exercise your leadership in order to
25 prevent the commission of further crimes ..."
Page 10070
1 The question, Mr. Djordjevic, is not whether or not you got this
2 letter, but were you not aware that the Prosecutor of this Tribunal had
3 sent a letter expressing grave concern about the allegations - and I
4 repeat the word allegations - of crimes being committed in Kosovo against
5 Kosovo Albanian civilians?
6 A. First of all, what I heard in the interpretation was that
7 Milan Milutinovic was the prime minister of Serbia. He was not the prime
8 minister. He was the president of Serbia.
9 As for Milan Milutinovic, I attended a meeting with him on the
10 4th of May, 1999, the first time, and this has to do with the
11 26th of March. Now, who wrote to him and what was written to him -- at
12 this meeting where I was present and where Milutinovic was present, he
13 did not mention this letter at all. Now, how am I to know what
14 representatives of the international community wrote about to him? How
15 would I know that? And he is not duty-bound to report to me about what
16 was being written to him, so ...
17 Q. Well, I -- you know, you leave me in a position to infer what
18 your answer is. Can you not answer the question directly? Did you
19 become aware that the Prosecutor of this Tribunal had sent a letter
20 expressing grave concern about the allegations of crimes against
21 Kosovo Albanian civilians?
22 A. What you presented to me is this letter. I've already told you
23 that I saw Milan Milutinovic when I saw him, and that was almost two
24 months after he received this letter. So I did not know what the
25 representatives of the international community were writing about to
Page 10071
1 Milan Milutinovic or to others, nor were they duty-bound to report to me
2 about what it was that they had received in terms of any indications of
3 certain things that they were writing about.
4 Q. Did you --
5 A. So I was not aware of what was written here.
6 Q. Did you at any time hear from any source that there were
7 allegations that unlawful violence was being committed against
8 Kosovo Albanian civilians by Serbian security forces?
9 A. I've been telling you several times now what my duty was and what
10 my obligations were. Please understand, every night, every day, Serbia
11 was bombed. Serbia
12 duty, my obligation, was to follow this. That is what I was aware of.
13 That was my province of work given to me by the minister.
14 Q. Mr. Djordjevic, you refuse to directly answer my questions. I'll
15 break it down -- I'll break it down --
16 A. What do you mean refuse? I have been telling you. I was not
17 aware of crimes being committed. I did not know that the representatives
18 of the international community wrote to Milutinovic or anyone else about
19 crimes.
20 Q. Mr. Djordjevic, I again make the distinction, and I want you to
21 focus on the question. I'm not saying crimes were committed, I'm not
22 asking you if you are aware that crimes were committed. I'm asking you
23 if you were aware that there were allegations, if you ever heard during
24 that period, March, April, May, June, allegations or that there were
25 allegations that there were these crimes being committed?
Page 10072
1 A. I had not heard of these allegations.
2 Q. Very well. In July, August, September, October, November,
3 December, the remainder of 1999, did you hear from any source that there
4 were allegations that there were crimes committed against Kosovo Albanian
5 civilians by Serbian security forces?
6 A. Afterwards, when all of this was over, there were some
7 complaints, but I really did not know anything specific. There was a war
8 going on, and every war is accompanied by crime. There is not a single
9 war that does not involve crimes as well, and that falls within the
10 general context of the situation that existed. I was aware that perhaps
11 there may have been a crime committed somewhere, like in any other war,
12 but I was not there to... I don't know what, process all crimes and
13 respond to everything. There is not a single war without war crimes.
14 So in that very general understanding of war and consequences --
15 Q. Yes, Mr. Djordjevic, I'm not asking you such a general question,
16 you know, that there are crimes in war, et cetera. I'm asking you about
17 your state of mind, and I keep having to repeat these questions. I'm
18 asking you about a more narrow thing. Did it come to your attention
19 after the war, in the six months -- the remaining six months of 1999
20 after the war, that there were allegations that the forces of the FRY and
21 Serbia
22 Kosovo Albanian civilians during the war?
23 A. How could I know about that? Should I base knowledge on the
24 knowledge of representatives of the international community?
25 Q. Just for the record, you know, you haven't answered my question,
Page 10073
1 but I'm just going to ask for the record: In 2000 -- in the year 2000,
2 you remained as chief of the public security department for all of 2000,
3 even after Mr. Stojiljkovic had been sacked. Did you in the year 2000
4 become aware that there were allegations that Serbian security forces,
5 that is, the VJ and the MUP, were involved in crimes against
6 Kosovo Albanian civilians?
7 A. I've been telling you several times now, I did not know of any
8 specific event that I learned of immediately after the war or later that
9 would indicate a concrete crime and concrete perpetrators. What I have
10 was something in very general terms, that something may have happened
11 somewhere, like anywhere else. So I did not have any knowledge about any
12 one of these crimes that are being charged here or these localities where
13 this had happened.
14 MR. STAMP: Your Honours, the letter 00399, I tender that and ask
15 that it be received in evidence as exhibit -- and be given an exhibit
16 number.
17 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
18 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P1511.
19 JUDGE PARKER: It's pointed out to me, Mr. Stamp, we saw but you
20 have not sought to tender a transcript of proceedings before the Belgrade
21 district court. Did you mean to tender that or not?
22 MR. STAMP: Yes, Your Honour, I -- having asked the witness
23 questions about it, I think it could come before the Court for its
24 consideration.
25 [Trial Chamber confers]
Page 10074
1 JUDGE PARKER: That -- Mr. Djurdjic.
2 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Two things: First of all, that
3 transcript was not tendered, and I don't think it can be tendered. It
4 has to do with a statement given before a different court, and it was not
5 confirmed by the witness. It has to do with a person who was put on the
6 Prosecutor's witness list, and the Prosecutor gave up on that person. I
7 believe that there are no grounds for having that document admitted into
8 evidence.
9 What Mr. Stamp presented, we said that that would be all right,
10 on the basis of your decision that the witness can say what the situation
11 was, but I don't think that this transcript can be admitted with regard
12 to a person who had not testified before this Court. I believe that that
13 would suffice. I wanted something else to say in relation to something
14 completely different now.
15 JUDGE PARKER: We're right with you and ahead of you on the
16 transcript. No need to say any more about that. It will merely be
17 marked for identification. It will not become an exhibit.
18 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P1512, marked
19 for identification.
20 JUDGE PARKER: Now, you had something else?
21 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Well, yes. I don't understand
22 what Mr. Djordjevic has to do with this document. He saw it now. He
23 said that he had never received it and never seen it. Now just because
24 Mr. Stamp presented it to him now it is being admitted into evidence in
25 this way.
Page 10075
1 [Trial Chamber confers]
2 JUDGE PARKER: I suspect, Mr. Djurdjic, we would be in the
3 hundreds of documents tendered by you and the Prosecution in this case to
4 which that comment might have been made. It is a document of direct
5 relevance to the case. We know the witness says he knew nothing of it,
6 and we will see by the end of the case whether there is anything that
7 changes that position or not. So it's received as an exhibit.
8 MR. STAMP: And while we are at it, could we -- may I ask, has it
9 been given a number? Thank you.
10 Could we have a look at 00398.
11 Q. This is another letter from the Prosecutor of the Tribunal in the
12 same terms, to the President of the Federal Republic
13 Were you aware at any time that the Prosecutor of these Tribunals -- of
14 this Tribunal had sent a letter expressing these grave concerns and also
15 requesting that steps be taken to deter the commission of future crimes?
16 A. Just like I said in relation to the previous letter, I was
17 totally unaware of this letter too.
18 Q. But did you hear about it in any way at any time?
19 A. No, not about this letter.
20 MR. STAMP: Your Honours, I also tender this document and ask
21 that it be received in evidence. I understand that it would be -- it's a
22 matter for the Court to give it whatever weight it merits as the case
23 develops.
24 JUDGE PARKER: At the moment, it may do nothing more than fill in
25 a minor element of historical continuity.
Page 10076
1 MR. STAMP: Yes.
2 JUDGE PARKER: But for the reasons indicated, it too will be
3 received.
4 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P1513.
5 MR. STAMP: Could we look at P42.
6 Q. This is a -- an indictment issued in May 1999, on the
7 22nd of May, 1999, and it became public, I think, on the -- well, it
8 became public on the 27th of May, 1999. Among the indictees are the
9 president, Milosevic, that's the federal president; the Serbian
10 president, Milutinovic; and Mr. Sainovic; Mr. Ojdanic, the head of the
11 VJ; and also Mr. Stojiljkovic. And I remind you of your evidence,
12 Mr. Djordjevic, your office was always neighbouring Mr. Stojiljkovic's
13 office during the war. You were always in the same place. Did you -- or
14 when did you become aware of this indictment?
15 A. Well, at this particular moment, I cannot give you any specific
16 date. Probably on the date when it became public, just like every other
17 citizen, I also learned about this indictment.
18 Q. Well, your minister, the man with whom you shared an office and
19 whose instructions you obeyed according to your testimony, is indicted
20 here. Did you also discover at the time when you learned about it what
21 he was being indicted for?
22 A. Well, no. I only learned that it was relating to Kosovo, that
23 the indictment was issued for Kosovo. However, as for the content of the
24 indictment, I really at that point in time wasn't much interested in that
25 nor did anybody tell me to what the indictment pertained. I had no
Page 10077
1 information about the charges that were raised against all these people
2 named here.
3 Q. Well, did you obtain or try to obtain a copy of the indictment
4 and have a look at it?
5 A. No.
6 Q. It is interesting that you say that you were not interested in
7 that because you have said that on the orders of the minister you
8 participated in the concealment of bodies that you knew came from Kosovo.
9 Now, you see that the minister is indicted and you are not interested to
10 find out what he's indicted for? Is that what you're telling the Court?
11 A. I'm telling you that I never had an opportunity to see a copy of
12 the indictments, to read the allegations contained therein. I don't know
13 how it was possible for me to find out what the allegations were. So
14 believe me that I never studied this indictment. I only knew this
15 general indication that it related to Kosovo, but I didn't know any
16 details.
17 Q. The -- did you know if Mr. Stojiljkovic, who was in a
18 neighbouring office, had a copy of this?
19 A. I really didn't know that.
20 Q. Did you ask him?
21 A. So I didn't know. According to the indictment and generally
22 speaking with regard to this institution, he had his own attitude and
23 views. He wasn't interested either. As far as I knew what the
24 indictment contained, I think that he wasn't particularly interested in
25 that. So I know what his attitude towards the indictment was. I don't
Page 10078
1 know if he received a copy, whether he studied it. I know nothing about
2 that, apart from his general attitude towards this institution and the
3 charges raised against him.
4 Q. Did you inquire of him whether he had a copy of this indictment
5 and did you discuss the indictment with him at all?
6 A. No, I never discussed that with him.
7 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Djurdjic.
8 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, it seems to me that
9 after the witness had answered a question, he's being asked the same
10 thing over and over again. We have the same answer given to the previous
11 question and to the most recent one.
12 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Djurdjic.
13 Carry on, please, Mr. Stamp.
14 MR. STAMP: Thank you, Your Honours.
15 Q. Did you -- well, you said that you followed what was happening in
16 the news. Did you follow both the international and the local news
17 media?
18 A. First of all, the statement that I was following the media, I
19 would like to say that I received the Serbian dailies in my office and I
20 perused them. Of course I followed the TV news. I don't speak English,
21 and I didn't follow any international media, television, radio, or
22 whatever. Due to my lack of foreign knowledge -- lack of knowledge of
23 foreign languages, I couldn't follow that. I was just following the
24 media in Serbia
25 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could the counsel please
Page 10079
1 switch off the microphone while the witness is speaking. Thank you.
2 MR. STAMP: Could we have a look at 06008.
3 Q. This is a news report in the -- or dated the 5th of April, 1999
4 that we took from the archives of the "New York Times" newspaper. Look
5 at the second paragraph of that news report.
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. It reports about Suva Reka. It says:
8 "... the richest man in town, who had rented his houses to
9 international monitors of the Organisation for Security and Co-operation
10 in Europe
11 with most of his family ..."
12 If you look at page 2 in English, page 3 in the B/C/S.
13 At the bottom of page 2 in English, top of page 3 in B/C/S, a
14 witness is quoted here as saying that:
15 "She had heard from a family friend late the next day that
16 Mr. Berisha, his three brothers, and most of their families had been
17 executed a few yards from their house.
18 "Mr. Berisha's cousin ... said he watched from his window as the
19 Serbian policemen shoot Mr. Berisha, his three brothers, and two other
20 cousins a few feet from Mr. Berisha's house, sometime between noon and
21 1.00 p.m.
22 children, were taken around to the back and shot ..."
23 This is the Suva Reka incident. Now, Mr. Djordjevic, now listen
24 again, I make the distinction between an allegation and knowledge that
25 the crime was committed, and I represent to you -- I put to you, that the
Page 10080
1 world knew of these allegations of these gross crimes being committed
2 against these people by Serbian security forces. The world knew. Right
3 across the Atlantic
4 of these allegations. Are you telling the Court that as chief of
5 public -- chief of the police in Serbia you sat in Belgrade
6 hear even a rumour about these allegations?
7 A. I am telling you here and now, this is the first time that I have
8 seen this article from "New York Times." As for the incident in
9 Suva Reka, I first learned about it when criminal proceedings were
10 instituted in Serbia
11 This is all I know about Suva Reka. So please understand, there were
12 events, there were crimes committed, but I didn't know about that.
13 Q. Nobody briefed you that this is what people were hearing all over
14 the world, that the Serbian police was committing massacres against
15 Kosovo Albanian civilians, including women and children? Nobody briefed
16 you about that at all?
17 A. Please, how do you call these wars in the press? I don't
18 remember the exact term. But there were various things, there were
19 various articles being written. Some crimes were never mentioned, some
20 crimes were mentioned. But I don't know what was true and what was not
21 true. Therefore, what the international propaganda did or whether it was
22 propaganda at all, I don't know. I never read about this. I told you
23 when I first heard about the Suva Reka incident. And now when I hear
24 witnesses here giving testimony, I realise that some things had been done
25 that are totally in contravention with the understanding. But at that
Page 10081
1 moment, I was not aware of that. I only heard about that once the
2 proceedings were instituted.
3 Q. If we could move on.
4 MR. STAMP: Your Honours, could this document be given an exhibit
5 number?
6 [Trial Chamber confers]
7 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Djurdjic.
8 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] I object to this document being
9 admitted into evidence. I don't see any foundation for that whatsoever.
10 [Trial Chamber confers]
11 JUDGE PARKER: The document will be received, Mr. Stamp, because
12 of its potential relevance to the state of international knowledge and
13 international controversy.
14 MR. STAMP: Thank you, Your Honour.
15 JUDGE PARKER: It, on the evidence, does not come directly close
16 to the accused, as we see things at the moment.
17 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P1514.
18 MR. STAMP: Could we look at 06009.
19 Q. This is another news report taken from the archives of the
20 "New York Times" of Wednesday, the 7th of April, 1999. And if we look at
21 page 2 in English, which is the top of page 3 in B/C/S.
22 The article reports and puts in the public domain many
23 allegations of crimes committed by Serbian forces in Kosovo. And the
24 purpose of my asking these questions is to ask -- is inquire about your
25 knowledge of what was happening in the public domain. It says:
Page 10082
1 "A second refugee today confirmed an account of Serbian forces
2 using a back hoe to dig a mass grave at Mala Krusa, one of two adjacent
3 villages, where a half-dozen witnesses have described mass killings of
4 roughly a hundred people."
5 And it goes on to describe other alleged offences against
6 civilians. This is what was in the public domain. The world, as I said,
7 knew about this. Didn't you know that the world knew about the
8 Mala Krusa massacre? Weren't you told about these allegations?
9 A. You may or may not believe me. I heard about Mala Krusa here at
10 this Tribunal. That was the first and the only time that I heard about
11 this. I never heard any word about it; I never read anything about it.
12 I heard about it here once I had an opportunity to review the indictment,
13 and that is when I heard about all these crimes that are contained in the
14 indictment.
15 MR. STAMP: Your Honours, I tender this one on the same basis and
16 ask that --
17 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
18 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P1515.
19 MR. STAMP:
20 Q. Did you -- among the publications that you read, did you read
21 publication "Vreme"?
22 A. No, I never read that newspaper.
23 MR. STAMP: If we could have a look at 06007.
24 Q. I'm putting to you, Mr. Djordjevic, that in the Serbian press as
25 well in 1999 there were allegations of serious crimes being committed
Page 10083
1 against Kosovo Albanian civilians. This is the "Vreme" issue number 445
2 of the 17th of July, 1999. If you look to page 1, third or fourth
3 paragraph down, it says in regard to expulsions:
4 "In the three months of war, almost 700.000 of the Albanian
5 residents were deported from Kosovo. Many of their houses were burnt and
6 looted. The investigation by international experts who are working on
7 several mass graves in Kosovo at the moment should show how many of them
8 were killed and in what way."
9 If we go to page 2 in the English, and this is the middle of
10 page 1 in the B/C/S. Second paragraph of page 2:
11 "There is no ... doubt now: The state military, police, and
12 paramilitary forces committed horrible crimes in Kosovo."
13 Paragraph 4:
14 "A teacher from Kosovo (mobilised into the special units during
15 the war) who came to the Ministry of Education to collect his salary,
16 said how they used to fight Albanians, how they were setting their houses
17 on fire, expelling them to the sound of the 'gusle.' When asked why they
18 did this and what is he going to do now, he shrugged his shoulders:
19 'First of all: It was a directive and secondly we thought they would
20 never return' ... "a partial sobering" -- well, there is a reference here
21 to the reaction of the "Serbian Orthodox church, more precisely of
22 patriarch Pavle who, during his stay in Kosovo in June," which would be
23 June of 1999, "was stunned by the extent of the crime in Pec."
24 And also the reaction of the Bishop of Raska and
25 Prizren Artemije?
Page 10084
1 This was in the public domain in Serbia, these allegations 1999.
2 Are you saying to this Court, Mr. Djordjevic, that you never heard about
3 these allegations at that time?
4 A. As I said here, in most general terms, without any specific
5 knowledge, as was the case in all war-torn zones, in line with this most
6 general knowledge, it could be that crimes had happened. But please
7 understand that my primary responsibility and my focus was on Serbia
8 outside of the territory of Kosovo
9 on this side or the other side, my attention was exclusively and
10 primarily focused on this area outside of Kosovo and Metohija. I really
11 didn't have any knowledge. I didn't read this. I didn't have any
12 concrete knowledge about any crime. I told you that about the heinous
13 crimes and the localities where they took place is something that I
14 learned about at this Court.
15 Q. As chief of the police for Serbia in 1999, didn't you receive
16 intelligence briefings every day as to what was happening in all of
17 Serbia
18 A. Well, that's a very broad question. We all know here what I was
19 being informed about and in what way, both from Kosovo and from the rest
20 of the territory of Serbia
21 didn't want to talk about this here in order to avoid any comparison of
22 the crimes that I personally witnessed in Serbia, starting with the
23 bombing of the television -- the hospitals, the sanatoriums, et cetera.
24 I don't want to talk about it. There were terrible victims on both
25 sides. What I mentioned right now was something that I personally
Page 10085
1 witnessed, and I was personally responsible for that territory. And I
2 never received a single piece of official information from any structures
3 about what had happened in Kosovo.
4 Q. Before I move on --
5 MR. STAMP: Your Honours, could this report in the "Vreme"
6 magazine also be received in evidence on the same basis?
7 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Djurdjic, you repeat your objection?
8 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours.
9 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
10 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P1516.
11 MR. STAMP: Could we move quickly to 65 ter number 05225. I'll
12 get the exhibit number shortly, and it's P1474.
13 Your Honour, I wonder if it's a convenient time because I might
14 be going into this document extensively.
15 JUDGE PARKER: [Microphone not activated]
16 --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.
17 --- On resuming at 11.07 a.m.
18 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Stamp.
19 MR. STAMP: Thank you, Your Honours.
20 I think I will not proceed to use this document and go straight
21 to 6010, which is P1508. And can we go straight to page 6 -- or page 5
22 in English, which is the top of page 7 in B/C/S.
23 Q. This is part of your testimony on the 29th of June this year.
24 JUDGE PARKER: 26th of June?
25 MR. STAMP: 26th of June, I'm so sorry, 26th of June this year.
Page 10086
1 Q. And you were asked by the Presiding Judge about some information
2 which he characterised as relatively insignificant that came to your
3 attention in respect to an offence. To quote the judge, he said:
4 "I would like to know how you came to know that somewhere down
5 there in Prokuplje or other some people had crossed the state border
6 illegally, were tried and sentenced, and so on. Do you understand? To
7 me, this looks like a relatively insignificant -- practically
8 insignificant offence to be reported to someone with a very high position
9 in the police."
10 And your response was:
11 "It was also for me a very routine kind of information, but as it
12 referred to foreign citizens, it was not actually just a small deal,
13 especially given that they were members of the Kosovo Liberation Army and
14 that this happened immediately after our return" --
15 THE INTERPRETER: Would you mind reading slowly. Thank you.
16 MR. STAMP:
17 Q. "-- from Kosovo. So this was a rather routine information for
18 me, but the incident itself was not really so insignificant. Everything
19 that was happening in the organs of the interior was for the most part
20 brought to my attention through regular channels or in some other way."
21 That is what the -- that is what you told the Court then. The
22 question is: Apart from the regular channels, what other ways were
23 information about what was happening in the organs of the interior
24 brought to your attention?
25 A. For example, an official -- an officer could come to me directly
Page 10087
1 and tell me whatever he had to say. So there were no other special
2 methods for me to acquire information. When they say "regular channels,"
3 they meant by telephone or somebody coming personally and conveying
4 whatever it is they had to convey.
5 Q. Incidentally, that's you speaking, not somebody else. You meant
6 that somebody would come to you personally and convey to you information?
7 A. If there was need for that, if they had to tell me something
8 about some regular, routine activities and tasks or if such an officer
9 had a proposal he would come, give it to me, ask for my opinion, that
10 sort of thing.
11 Q. Apart from the -- withdrawn.
12 Could I ask you this: You were receiving in the regular
13 reporting from the MUP staff information as to the approximate numbers of
14 Kosovo Albanians who were crossing the border into Macedonia -- into
15 Albania
16 A. Yes. It wasn't me receiving. It was everybody to whom the
17 information was addressed, the minister, various assistant ministers, and
18 I was among the list of addressees.
19 Q. Let's just take as -- for example two of them.
20 MR. STAMP: If we could look at P701.
21 Q. This is the daily report from Mr. Lukic of the
22 25th of April, 1999. We have discussed -- I think you discussed some
23 others of these when you gave evidence in chief. There is just one part
24 I would like to go straight to. That's page 5 of the English, the last
25 page, I think, of the B/C/S. And if you look at item 4, it gives the
Page 10088
1 breakdown of Kosovo Albanian citizens leaving on the 24th of April, 1999
2 And in the last paragraph of that section it says:
3 "Between the 24th of March and the 24th of April, 1999, a total
4 of 669.071 Siptars left the FRY ..."
5 You were receiving that type of information on a daily basis,
6 were you?
7 A. Yes, I would receive just like other users. Let me explain the
8 technical procedure to you. So this paper that you're just putting to me
9 would be sent to the chef de cabinet --
10 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...
11 A. -- yes, I would receive this information, but let me explain you
12 how. So chef de cabinet would receive this information, this report. He
13 would go over it, and then come to me and tell me, "This is the important
14 bit, that is the important bit." I didn't read, myself, personally all
15 of it. There was other information there as well about what duty
16 services reported. So I didn't read it in the sense that I knew of every
17 sentence, no. When chef de cabinet thought that I should be informed of
18 something, he would tell me about this; if he didn't tell me about it,
19 then I didn't know about it. As for this particular piece of
20 information, I did know it.
21 Q. And if we could look at another one just to make a correction.
22 This is P694, the same type of daily reporting from Mr. Lukic dated the
23 1st of May, 1999. If we go straight to page 8 in the English, which is
24 the last page in the B/C/S. Again, we are looking at item 4. Similarly,
25 the breakdown is given for those Kosovo Albanians who left the territory
Page 10089
1 on the 30th of April.
2 Now, if we look in the last paragraph you see:
3 "Between the 24th of April and the 30th of April ... a total of
4 715.158 persons belonging to the Siptar national minority left the
5 territory of the SRJ ..."
6 Just to correct something. This would be an error, wouldn't it,
7 if -- it should be the 24th of March, between the 24th of March and the
8 30th of April, 1999?
9 A. I wouldn't be able to correct it, but it is possible that it
10 pertains to the period from the beginning of the war, which was the
11 24th of March. It doesn't say here how many Serbs and other
12 non-Albanians left the territory of Kosovo
13 lot of such people who left due to the war activities. And it also
14 doesn't say here what were the reasons for these people to leave the
15 territory. This report just gives numbers.
16 Q. Okay --
17 A. But it doesn't explain what prompted them to leave the territory.
18 Q. As a lawyer and a police chief, Mr. Djordjevic, did you know of
19 the organisation called Human Rights Watch during 1999?
20 A. I have heard of that organisation.
21 Q. I was asking you about 1999. You -- did you become aware of a
22 report they issued and circulated, and it was widely circulated, in
23 October 1998 regarding the events at the Jashari compound and in Cirez
24 and Likosane at the same time? And I'm referring to Exhibit 741, that's
25 the 1st of October, 1998, Human Rights Watch report.
Page 10090
1 A. No, I'm not aware of what they wrote about the event. I do know
2 about the event, though. Now, as to how they reported on it, I don't
3 know. I didn't read it, and I wasn't aware of their article.
4 Q. In the report they speak of the operations and they say that
5 83 people were killed, including 24 women and children. And at page 32
6 to 33 of the report -- actually, pages 30 to 33 of the report they give
7 specific examples of incidents where excessive force or unlawful force
8 was used by Serbian security forces, in particular the police, resulting
9 in the deaths of many of these people. Were you aware at least that
10 Human Rights Watch was criticising the Serbian police in the way they
11 conducted themselves during these operations?
12 A. I really didn't know of any evaluations or assessments of theirs
13 in relation to the operation that had been carried out. Now, as to how
14 qualified they were to do that and what they had at that disposal to come
15 up with that evaluation, I don't know. I don't know how they made that
16 evaluation and what their final conclusion was.
17 Q. I think Mr. Fred Abrahams testified about how they did it, and
18 the methodology is clearly described in the Human Rights Watch report.
19 But you were shown, when you testified in chief, a document, which is
20 D424, which is a press release from the MUP dated 5th of March, 1998,
21 which you said was for the purpose of denying lies in domestic and
22 foreign media. And I assumed from that that you were aware of these
23 reports in the domestic and foreign media about police excessive force,
24 but you didn't agree with them.
25 MR. STAMP: If you could bring up that document, D424, which is
Page 10091
1 the MUP press release.
2 Q. Just to remind you about that document and perhaps you could
3 remember your earlier testimony. Don't you recall, Mr. Djordjevic, that
4 the local and foreign press at that time were making allegations that the
5 security forces, including the police, acted excessively, resulting in
6 loss of life of many Albanian civilians?
7 A. Could I see the second page of this report, please.
8 Yes, there is another information here, and that is one of the
9 Republic of Serbia
10 attitude of the foreign media concerning this event. In this portion
11 here, it is not indicated that any excessive force was used. This
12 communique or report issued by the minister's cabinet.
13 Q. Mr. Djordjevic, please, this report according to you is a report
14 which denies lies in the domestic and foreign media. My question is:
15 Having a look at this denial of the allegations in the domestic and the
16 foreign media, do you now recall --
17 A. Could I see the first page, just the first page, please.
18 Q. Do you now recall that the local and foreign media were making
19 allegations about the excessive force employed by the Serbian security
20 forces, including the police, during those operations at the Jashari
21 family compound and in Likosane and Cirez in early 1998?
22 A. It says here:
23 "Ministry of the Interior denies the allegations and lies
24 launched in some domestic and foreign media about alleged torture of the
25 arrested and detained Albanians."
Page 10092
1 That is the sentence here that was released by the minister's
2 cabinet, in which they say that these were lies, falsehoods, and alleged
3 torture of the arrested and detained Albanians. They don't mention any
4 foreign media reports or any excessive use of force. This statement
5 simply denies that they were arrested, detained, and tortured.
6 Q. Mr. Djordjevic, I'm asking you about your testimony, and I'm
7 asking you specifically about your state of mind.
8 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Djurdjic.
9 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, Your Honours,
10 Mr. Stamp put a question and you saw what kind of a question it was. I'm
11 not going to repeat it. The witness replied based on the document. He
12 gave a specific answer. I don't mind if Mr. Stamp continues putting his
13 questions, but we have to make it known that the witness did reply on the
14 question put to him; and in it he pointed out to certain things. I don't
15 need to repeat them. The question was completely inappropriately
16 formulated in relation to the document based on which it was put.
17 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Stamp.
18 MR. STAMP: Your Honours, I can rephrase the question because I'm
19 just thinking about time, though I believe --
20 JUDGE PARKER: Rephrase and move on --
21 MR. STAMP: Yes, Your Honour.
22 JUDGE PARKER: -- because of time, Mr. Stamp.
23 MR. STAMP: Indeed. Thank you very much, Your Honour.
24 Q. Mr. Djordjevic, at that time, were you not aware that the media,
25 local media or overseas media, were making allegations that the Serbian
Page 10093
1 security forces employed excessive force in the operations at the Jashari
2 compound and in Likosane and Cirez?
3 A. It's possible that some foreign media wrote about their
4 perception of what had happened and how it had happened. I can testify
5 about what I know. I don't know what foreign media wrote specifically.
6 And given the policies that were in place at the time, it is possible
7 that the topics were different and that they wrote differently about all
8 of the activities of the Serbian police. Now, for me to evaluate all of
9 that, I couldn't do that. I didn't read everything. I don't know what
10 they wrote. And they probably wrote what suited them at the time, using
11 the events. Now, as to how objective and realistic they were at the
12 time, I really wouldn't be able to say.
13 Q. During the summer offensive of 1999, you were aware at least that
14 members of the MUP were involved in torching, setting on fire, houses and
15 buildings belonging to Kosovo Albanian civilians, were you? 1998.
16 During the operations in 1998, the anti-terrorist operations in
17 1998, you were aware that the Serbian security forces, in particular the
18 police, some of them were engaged in torching buildings and property of
19 Kosovo Albanians, were you not?
20 A. Now this conclusion about Serbian security forces, and in
21 particular the police, is arbitrary. I can tell you how this came about.
22 It is true that there were instances of torching, but not in the way that
23 you describe it now. As I have said earlier, in breaking down
24 barricades, in neutralising terrorists, in breaking down resistance, and
25 in anti-terrorist activities, yes, there were some facilities there were
Page 10094
1 damaged and burned. And those were the main reasons and the main cases
2 where facilities were damaged and torched.
3 Beyond that, in individual cases, there were also instances of
4 damage and burning and perhaps even looting of some individual houses.
5 But I do not know who the people who did it were. When I was out in the
6 field, yes, I did see that there had been such cases, and I did inform
7 the gatherings, the people that I met, about what I had seen. And I
8 insisted that whenever it was established that people had burned and
9 damaged facilities and in case -- wherever I learned that they had done
10 things that are unlawful, I insisted on something -- that something be
11 done against them.
12 Q. Didn't you know that policemen -- I'm not asking you about any
13 specific individual, but policemen were involved in torching
14 Kosovo Albanian houses and in looting Kosovo Albanian property?
15 A. I knew that there were such cases. Wherever it was established
16 that this was done by a policeman, measures were taken against him for
17 looting, robbery, and burning. I cannot say exactly how many cases there
18 were of this nature, but I know that from staff level it was insisted
19 that members of the police act in accordance with the law and
20 professionally, that is to say, all these activities that you referred to
21 just now were prohibited, looting, burning, arson, et cetera.
22 There were quite a few cases when people were dismissed from the
23 service and when disciplinary and criminal proceedings were instituted
24 against them. So that was the position of the leadership, and the
25 commanders who were on the ground were also of the same view, that such
Page 10095
1 negative conduct was to be prevented. Unfortunately, it wasn't done each
2 and every time.
3 Q. In 1998, were you aware of the United Nations Security Council
4 Resolution 1160 of the 31st of March, 1998, that "condemned" - and I will
5 quote - "the use of excessive force by the Serbian police force against
6 civilians"?
7 A. Well, I did not study it in detail, but I know that there was
8 this Resolution 1160, and I think there was 1166, where such activities
9 are indicated. And also there is the request for the Albanian leadership
10 to dissociate itself from terrorist activities in Kosovo and Metohija at
11 the time, that is to say that the Security Council knew then that this
12 had to do with terrorist activities, and they wanted the leadership of
13 the Albanians to dissociate themselves from that kind of thing.
14 Q. I think you mentioned another resolution. There's another one I
15 want to ask you about. 1199, UN Security Council Resolution 1199 of the
16 23rd of September, 1998, which expressed grave concern, in particular the
17 excessive and indiscriminate use of force by the Yugoslav security forces
18 and the VJ which have resulted in numerous civilian casualties.
19 Do you recall that one?
20 A. I remember, I don't know the exact name of the resolution, but I
21 know that this resolution preceded all the political discussions that
22 took place afterwards aimed at preventing the escalation of further
23 activity in the territory of Kosovo
24 terrorist forces there refrain from their terrorist activities. As far
25 as I can remember at this point in time, and in I'm not mistaken, that is
Page 10096
1 what it was all about. And, of course, this resolution also says what
2 you had referred to.
3 MR. STAMP: Just for the record, Your Honours, may I just
4 indicate that the first resolution I referred to is P1074 and the second
5 one is D160.
6 Q. Did you, Mr. Djordjevic - and I'm moving on now - at any time set
7 up a commission or a body specifically charged with responsibility to
8 investigate allegations of crimes committed by the police in Kosovo
9 during 1999?
10 A. No, I did not establish any commission or body.
11 Q. You told us in your testimony that you did what the minister
12 ordered you to do because you thought he was threatening you. Did you,
13 Mr. Djordjevic, mention this alleged threat in any of your previous
14 accounts before coming to Court to testify over the last two weeks, in
15 any of your previous accounts about the reasons why you participated in
16 the concealment of the bodies?
17 A. I always said that I worked on the minister's orders and that I
18 carried out his orders. As for the conversations I had with him, it is
19 unequivocal that, in order to have these tasks carried out, he assumes
20 that my life is threatened. That is what I wanted to say, and that is
21 the truth.
22 Q. Did you -- well, I represent to you - I don't want us to have to
23 go through these documents - I represent to you that in your letter in
24 2004 where you referred to obeying these instructions from the minister
25 to conceal the bodies and in your opening statement where you also
Page 10097
1 referred to this -- to these events, you did not say that you acted
2 partly or entirely as a result of a threat or your belief that there was
3 a threat. This was something that you said recently, over the last two
4 weeks when you came to testify here.
5 A. Because of my activities or non-compliance with the minister's
6 orders, I spoke about that in that letter and later. My life was being
7 threatened specifically by the minister and by others. Now, whether I
8 said everything in minute detail in that particular letter, well I know
9 how I did this, why I did this, and why I had to do it.
10 Q. Mr. Djordjevic, are you saying that in your letter of 2004 you
11 said that you obeyed the minister's orders in respect to concealment of
12 the bodies because he threatened you? That is not in the letter,
13 Mr. Djordjevic, so I want to know if you are telling the Court that you
14 said that in that letter.
15 A. Please, in that letter I addressed the public. I could not say
16 everything in detail. I wrote that letter in revolt and some kind of
17 rage. There were a few elementary mistakes in all of that, in this
18 letter. It wasn't for me now to deal with each and every detail that I
19 knew. I could have written a letter on 200 pages then, and I don't know
20 how many pages this testimony is. My life was endangered then; it was
21 endangered after the 5th of October too.
22 Now, whether I put all of that in the right places in your view,
23 that's a different matter. I know under which conditions I worked. At
24 the moment when I was supposed to be ordered to use a weapon to kill
25 someone, I energetically refused to do that. As for bodies of persons
Page 10098
1 who had already been killed, I could no longer help these persons --
2 Q. Mr. Djordjevic --
3 A. -- I did take action then knowing that I was not guilty at all in
4 respect to the death of these persons.
5 Q. Yes, we have heard that. I am focusing now - and I would ask
6 you, please, to focus on that - on this -- the evidence of yours that you
7 were threatened by the minister.
8 You recall, Mr. Djordjevic, that you were also asked quite
9 extensive questions about your motivations for obeying [Realtime
10 transcript read in error "being"] the minister by your attorney when you
11 testified in chief for over a week. And again, Mr. Djordjevic, I
12 represent to you that you did not mention this threat during your
13 testimony in chief. And I ask you: Why did you fail to refer to it when
14 your attorney asked you about it or asked you about the circumstances of
15 that event?
16 A. I don't understand now. What is it that I did say and what is it
17 that I did not say during my examination-in-chief? Could you be more
18 specific. I think that I did say during my examination-in-chief that I
19 did this because -- because I was ordered to do so and because I was told
20 to take care of myself in that sense. When he told me to take care of
21 myself, it was my understanding that I was supposed to safe-guard my
22 life. Now, that is my assumption. Now, how you understood this, this is
23 something -- well, I cannot repeat each and every word that I said. I
24 understood this as a most serious threat in relation to my very own life.
25 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Djurdjic.
Page 10099
1 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Again, we are dealing with the
2 problem of the way in which Mr. Stamp puts his questions, and then he
3 gives his comment with regard to some answer, and he's not giving a
4 specific reference as to what it was that had actually happened. After
5 this evidence, I am going to give the Court all the references that
6 Mr. Stamp invoked and what is actually stated there. But could he say
7 specifically what he said during the examination-in-chief. Let us not
8 hear Mr. Stamp's conclusions. Since this is being put to the witness,
9 why doesn't he put to the witness his very own words, not put the
10 questions the way he is putting them, Mr. Stamp that is.
11 JUDGE PARKER: Carry on, please, Mr. Stamp.
12 MR. STAMP: Thank you.
13 Q. All I'm saying to you, Mr. Djordjevic, is that you failed to say
14 that you were threatened in your entire examination-in-chief. Is there a
15 reason why you failed to explain to the Court that you felt threatened
16 and that is why you did what you did?
17 A. I don't know what to answer to you now. If I was ordered and
18 told to take care of myself, Take care of yourself and take care and
19 respect of what you're doing, that was the most serious threat that I
20 received. And I took it as a most serious threat in relation to my own
21 life. Now, how you interpret it is something -- well --
22 Q. Very well --
23 A. -- I took those words in that sense.
24 Q. Very well. Let's move to the 9th of July, 1999 -- or is it the
25 9th of -- were you at a meeting --
Page 10100
1 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Djurdjic.
2 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Transcript page 42; 24, 25, those
3 were the lines. I think it says "minister." It says your motivation to
4 be minister. That is what the transcript says.
5 MR. STAMP: I think it's "to obey," not "to be." "To obey the
6 minister." That's how it should read.
7 JUDGE PARKER: Carry on, please, Mr. Stamp.
8 MR. STAMP:
9 Q. Do you recall a meeting after the war in 1999 attended by
10 representatives, senior representatives, of the MUP including yourself
11 and the minister and also of the VJ in which the events in the war was
12 reviewed or were reviewed? And Mr. Stojiljkovic gave a report as to --
13 that included crimes committed by members of the MUP. Do you recall that
14 meeting?
15 A. Well, that is your totally free interpretation of what had
16 happened at that meeting. I attended the meeting, and the minister did
17 not submit a report about what had happened during the course of the
18 war --
19 Q. Very well --
20 A. -- that was --
21 Q. What was the date of this meeting?
22 A. Well, I don't know what the date was, but it was sometime around
23 the 10th of July. How could I know now ? It was after the war, this
24 meeting.
25 Q. According to Mr. Vasiljevic in his testimony - and that's at
Page 10101
1 transcript 5725 to 6 - he said that Mr. Stojiljkovic said that only --
2 that there were only 13 MUP members who committed crimes, and procedures
3 had been initiated accordingly in each case. Do you recall the minister
4 saying that?
5 A. I recall that he did talk about that. As for the number of
6 persons or the number of crimes committed -- well, I remember that he
7 mentioned the casualties, the killed and the wounded, and the general
8 situation, the co-operation between the army and the police. And, of
9 course, he talked about the crimes that were known of at the time and
10 what kind of steps were taken against the members of the police who had
11 done that, as had been established. So that was one of the topics.
12 There were other topics too --
13 Q. Very well --
14 A. -- meaning.
15 Q. -- I just wanted to get your comment on what he said about the
16 MUP crimes, which is that he did talk about that.
17 We could move on to something else very quickly, and that is the
18 Skorpions.
19 MR. STAMP: I think we need to go into closed session for this,
20 Your Honours. I have to refer to the testimony of K92.
21 JUDGE PARKER: Closed.
22 [Private session]
23 (redacted)
24 (redacted)
25 (redacted)
Page 10102
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Page 10105
1 (redacted)
2 (redacted)
3 (redacted)
4 (redacted)
5 (redacted)
6 (redacted)
7 (redacted)
8 (redacted)
9 (redacted)
10 (redacted)
11 (redacted)
12 (redacted)
13 (redacted)
14 (redacted)
15 (redacted)
16 (redacted)
17 (redacted)
18 (redacted)
19 (redacted)
20 (redacted)
21 (redacted)
22 [Open Session]
23 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Just for the record, up to
24 page 48, line 15, Mr. Stamp never said to which statement of the
25 protected witness he was referring to and possibly what kind of page he
Page 10106
1 is referring to, whether it from -- whether from the transcript or any
2 other page.
3 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
4 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're now in open session.
5 JUDGE PARKER: We're now in public session.
6 MR. STAMP:
7 Q. Mr. Trajkovic, now, at 9111 of the transcript, he says in regard
8 to how this unit was formed:
9 "It seems" --
10 I'll read the entire section just for context.
11 "As far as I know, he, Milanovic, was in contact with Mr. Medic.
12 I don't know whether Mr. Medic initiated that contact or whether he
13 initiated contact with Mr. Medic. In any case, it seems that
14 Mr. Milanovic was allowed to form a combat group so that that group could
15 assist in the defence of the country, to assist in the defence of
16 Kosovo and Metohija. When there were subsequent discussions about groups
17 joining the SAJ
18 it came about that that combat group was engaged through the
19 Ministry of the Interior and its reserve force."
20 Do you confirm or deny that testimony of Mr. Trajkovic?
21 A. Of course I totally disagree with what Trajkovic said, and I also
22 disagree with what you said first about how this unit had been formed.
23 This is not about this unit, and what Trajkovic is saying is not
24 corresponding to the truth.
25 Q. Trajkovic further said it was you who told him about these
Page 10107
1 reserves and their qualifications. At transcript 9090, line 17, he says:
2 "In conversation with Mr. Djordjevic, I learned that these were
3 experienced or partly experienced combatants who had already been at the
4 fronts in Slavonia
5 Do you confirm or deny that part of Mr. Trajkovic's testimony?
6 A. Of course I disagree. First of all, I didn't spend a single day
7 (redacted)
8 (redacted)
9 (redacted) the men that he worked with over there? So these are his various
10 interpretations or various things depending on what he was saying in any
11 particular statement. When it suited him, he would say that he stood by
12 it; when it didn't suit him, then he would say that that was my part and
13 my standing behind it. It's a completely different story. You may hear
14 it if you want.
15 Q. No -- well, I don't -- we will come to that. So you're saying
16 that Mr. Trajkovic was being untruthful?
17 A. Of course he spoke untruth.
18 Q. He testified at transcript 9091 that he wanted to do some checks
19 on the reservists, that he told you that. Do you confirm that or deny
20 that?
21 A. Well, please, how can I explain this to you now? In the report
22 that he wrote himself at my request and pursuant to minister's order, it
23 says that those were the men who he knew at the time when they were
24 carrying out those tasks. And then all of a sudden it's up -- I
25 entrusted him with the task of checking up who was capable of shooting or
Page 10108
1 not. I wanted to explain to you, it's not that I didn't --
2 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...
3 A. -- play any role at all, but it's not the way that Trajkovic is
4 trying to portray it.
5 (redacted)
6 (redacted)
7 MR. STAMP: I apologise to the Court, Your Honour, I called a
8 name which I should not have mentioned.
9 JUDGE PARKER: Page 51, line 23, should also -- there should also
10 be a redaction.
11 MR. STAMP:
12 Q. Did you know that many of these Skorpions, these members who were
13 introduced to the SAJ
14 A. You are now talking about numerous members of Skorpions. I don't
15 know what you're talking about. I knew nothing about any Skorpions, nor
16 with any criminal activities that they were probably involved in. Can
17 you understand that? As far as I'm concerned, when the reserve forces
18 were sent down there, the Skorpions didn't exist. I knew not of them; I
19 didn't know their names; I didn't know anything.
20 Q. These men that you introduced to the SAJ, according to
21 Witness Vasiljevic he was able, through military intelligence, to learn
22 that many of them had criminal records. Your evidence is that you did
23 not, at the time they were introduced, know that any of them were
24 criminals?
25 A. Please, from the moment when Vasiljevic testified here, a few
Page 10109
1 months later a criminal report was filed against him,
2 or rather, an indictment was issued against him by Croatia
3 for war crimes, for setting up some kind of camps,
4 mistreating of prisoners, and there was an arrest warrant
5 issued for him.
6 Q. That is not relevant. Mr. Djordjevic, that is merely
7 abuse in that Mr. Vasiljevic – I just reminded you that he said that military
8 intelligence could discover that these -- many of these men were criminals.
9 Is it still your testimony that you were not aware in -- when they were
10 introduced, that some of them were criminals? That can be answered yes or no.
11 A. No, I didn't know, and I didn't bring them in.
12 Q. Mr. Trajkovic also testified at transcript 901 -- sorry, 9102 to
13 9103 that he's not sure who issued the order for redeployment of the --
14 of this group of men, but he was informed about their re-engagement
15 through you, through Djordjevic, in mid-April; is that correct, that you
16 informed him about their re-engagement?
17 A. I think that this interpretation of yours is incorrect. As far
18 as I can remember --
19 Q. This is not an interpretation --
20 A. -- when they were sent back after the first crime -- please let
21 me explain.
22 Q. No, no. I'm not asking for an explanation just now. I'm saying
23 this is not an interpretation. I read to you what Mr. Trajkovic said,
24 and I just want to know if you accept the truth of it or you say it's not
25 true. He said he was informed about the re-engagement of the Skorpions
Page 10110
1 by you in mid-April.
2 A. That's not true. Trajkovic insisted that these members of the
3 reserve forces be re-engagement, that he was going to guarantee for their
4 lawful conduct, and thanks to his interest and according to minister's
5 order were sent back to Kosovo. We had a testimony of one of the
6 reservists who was down there who got wounded and who enjoyed all the
7 rights as a reservist. He spoke about not a single crime being committed
8 afterwards.
9 Q. Mr. Djordjevic, the witness Stoparic, he testified to no such
10 thing. He testified that many of the men who were involved in the
11 massacre were sent back down to Kosovo with him, except for Cvetan - and
12 this is at page T2844 of the transcript - except for Sasa Cvetan, many of
13 the men who shot the civilians in Podujevo were sent back down, and they
14 were down there many times committing crimes, clearing villages. That's
15 his testimony. Isn't it true that many of the men who were committing
16 crimes were sent back down there, Mr. Djordjevic?
17 A. Well, let us please focus on a single incident and only one
18 matter. Please do not generalise things. What you're talking is not
19 what Stoparic spoke about this here. He said that they were extremely
20 professional in their conduct when they were sent there for the second
21 time. Well, who was going to be sent back again? It was Trajkovic who
22 directly decided on that because he provided guarantees that these men
23 under his command would act impeccably, that no misdeed or crime were
24 going to be committed. So for those who were supposed or identified as
25 those who committed crimes the first time did not go back again, and it
Page 10111
1 was up to Trajkovic to decide who was going to be sent there or not. It
2 was not me who did that; it wasn't my duty at all, therefore --
3 Q. Well, that is not Trajkovic's testimony. Incidentally, was the
4 person we call K92, was he sent back? Was he sent down to Kosovo with
5 them when they were re-activated?
6 A. I don't know who this 92 is off the top of my head.
7 MR. STAMP: If we could go back into private session just for one
8 moment, Your Honours.
9 JUDGE PARKER: Private.
10 [Private session]
11 (redacted)
12 (redacted)
13 (redacted)
14 (redacted)
15 (redacted)
16 [Open session]
17 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As far as I know, he and Trajkovic
19 went after the crime committed in Podujevo to demobilise members of the
20 reserve and returned. And I don't know that he ever went there again.
21 MR. STAMP:
22 Q. You said at page 9709 of the transcript that it was Trajkovic who
23 proposed that K92 go down there with him to demobilise these men. You
24 agreed with this proposition, that is to say that the two of them should
25 try to finish this in the safest possible way, that is to have them
Page 10112
1 return their weapons and to make sure that no incidents occur.
2 How is it that you felt safe enough to accept Mr. Trajkovic's
3 (redacted)
4 (redacted)
5 MR. STAMP: Your Honours, I made the same mistake again. This is
6 the last time, I guarantee. I apologise.
7 JUDGE PARKER: Redaction.
8 MR. STAMP:
9 Q. It seems, based on your evidence, that it was necessary to engage
10 K92 to demobilise these men, to help Trajkovic to demobilise these men.
11 So how is it you could accept Trajkovic's guarantee about their
12 re-activation in Kosovo when K92 was not going down there to help him to
13 control these men?
14 A. Well, you have made a total construct of this. I told you a few
15 times that the two, Trajkovic and this protected witness, were friends;
16 and they, as it were, committed and carried out a selection of a number
17 of members of the reserve forces. We heard here testimony that only
18 15 or 20 people with war experience had been engaged. And Trajkovic,
19 therefore, suggested that probably the other man should join him.
20 I told him at the time, All right, go down there, and see that
21 there were no problems in the process. But please understand, that was
22 the period of the fiercest bombing of Serbia. I didn't care much about
23 whether 20 reservists were going to be brought back or not. I have an
24 officer who is in charge of 100 or 200 men with such a proposition. So I
25 really cannot -- couldn't programme each and every step for him. He
Page 10113
1 comes up with a proposition. I say, All right, go there, do it the best
2 possible way. And he carried it out in a professional manner. Later he
3 told me, I need them; I will guarantee for them. I asked him, How many?
4 He said, 100. I obtained an approval from the minister. I engaged the
5 administration in charge of sending the reservists down there. He made
6 the selection. He takes charge. And now you're holding me responsible.
7 All right, I may be responsible, but what I know is that he
8 provided guarantee for their re-engagement. And I know, based on the
9 testimony we heard here from one of the reservists, is that they carried
10 out their job extremely professionally, and they didn't commit any crime.
11 That's all I know. And my role in all that -- and I really don't
12 understand the way you're thinking.
13 MR. STAMP: Could we look at D442, which may I just say for the
14 record is a copy of P86 with a slight difference in the translation.
15 Q. You said that you asked Mr. Trajkovic to prepare a report on the
16 orders of the minister. What did he do with this report, having prepared
17 it?
18 A. The report was submitted to me, and I delivered it to the
19 minister.
20 Q. Did you read it before you submitted it to the minister?
21 A. I think I did.
22 Q. Did you ask Trajkovic about it or ask him to make any
23 corrections? Did you discuss it with Trajkovic before sending it to the
24 minister?
25 A. Since at one point he was wounded as well, he wrote this report
Page 10114
1 on the basis of certain information he received from his subordinates
2 down there.
3 Q. Did you --
4 A. -- I told him.
5 Q. Did you, Mr. Djordjevic, discuss it with Mr. Trajkovic before you
6 forwarded it to the minister?
7 A. I issued a task to him, the first and the second time when the
8 reservists were engaged for his need, to prepare a report that I was to
9 forward to the minister --
10 Q. Mr. Djordjevic --
11 A. -- he brought the report to me. I didn't amend it; I didn't want
12 to amend it; I didn't analyse the contents, how he wrote it, and what he
13 wrote it. I just gave it to the minister as it is.
14 Q. He says in the first sentence of paragraph 3:
15 "With the approval of the chief of the public security department
16 and the MUP staff in Pristina, 128 reservists were engaged and put on the
17 roster of the SAJ
18 Is that true?
19 A. That was his information. He knows what I had told him, and he
20 didn't know my further activities vis-à-vis minister. When he proposed
21 that he needed the reservists and when he said that there were
22 hundred-odd men that could be used for those purposes, with this request
23 of his I approached the minister, the minister agreed with the procedure,
24 and Trajkovic knows that I told him, after I received an order from the
25 minister, Trajkovic, go ahead and work with the police administration on
Page 10115
1 the issue of reservists.
2 Q. I'm not sure what your answer is --
3 A. So, formally speaking -- excuse me?
4 Q. I'm not sure what your answer is. Is that, what I just read, the
5 first sentence that Mr. Trajkovic wrote, is that true or not?
6 A. I said that it was true that I gave him permission to engage
7 these reservists, but only after I had obtained approval. So I couldn't
8 provide this approval myself. Once he came up with this proposal and
9 said that there was so and so many reservists available for MUP, I
10 obtained a permission from the minister, the minister agreed because he
11 knew what tasks lay ahead of the SAJ
12 it needed assistance. Then I told him, It's all right. See to it to
13 engage more reservists with the police administration.
14 So this is true in the sense how it's written here, but what we
15 have here is his side of the story, his knowledge.
16 Q. He said in the fifth paragraph, first sentence:
17 "At about 1800 hours on the 27th of March, 1999, with the
18 approval of the MUP staff and the knowledge of the chief of the
19 department, the commander of the SAJ
20 Prolom Banja in order to take over members of the reserve forces that
21 were to be engaged."
22 Is that part true or not true, Mr. Djordjevic?
23 A. This is not true. He was wounded at the time, and he wrote this
24 report based on what he had received from other officers. What they
25 conveyed to him, I don't know. As far as I know about this unit, the
Page 10116
1 only thing is that this unit was headed towards Kosovo, that they were
2 holding some kind of back-up position, and that they could only go to
3 Kosovo if the staff summoned them. When the staff decided that there was
4 a need for their engagement, that was what they decided to do; however, I
5 didn't provide any approval in that sense.
6 Q. No, no, we're not talking about approval here. Focus on what I'm
7 asking and what he wrote here and gave to you. You said in your evidence
8 that you did not know about it. The first time you know they were --
9 they had joined the SAJ
10 with your knowledge Simovic went down there, take them over. Isn't that
11 true, that with your knowledge Simovic went down there to take them over?
12 A. That is completely untrue.
13 MR. STAMP: And if we could go to the next page, the next-to-last
14 paragraph.
15 Q. Short paragraph, so I'll just read it. He said:
16 "A need again arose for the engagement of reservists so at the
17 proposal of the SAJ
18 the staff in Pristina and the chief of the department, 108 reservists
19 were engaged under the leadership of Slobodan Medic."
20 Is that part true, especially the part referring to your approval
21 being given?
22 A. It is true that I conveyed it, that those reservists could be
23 engaged for the SAJ
24 permission for them to be there. Once I got this permission, I said,
25 Yes, they can be re-engaged.
Page 10117
1 What I practically did was to pass on the minister's approval
2 onwards. Therefore, I didn't have any inherent authority to decide on
3 the engagement of 108 members of the reserve forces for the requirements
4 of the SAJ
5 Trajkovic because Trajkovic could not contact the minister directly. The
6 minister took a decision, I conveyed it, and you can, in a way, perceive
7 it as some kind of my approval for their re-engagement, but that happened
8 exclusively on Trajkovic's insistence. It wasn't either my intention or
9 my wish.
10 Q. Very well. Mr. Byrnes testified that in the time that he
11 associated with you in various meetings, you were a professional man,
12 highly professional. A commander, a man who was obviously the commander,
13 and he was speaking especially in regard to -- or vis-à-vis Mr. Lukic.
14 That you were on top of the details, you were a top negotiator, you were
15 a man of substance. Mr. Lukic pretty much said the same thing about you.
16 Mr. Trajkovic came and testified and he said that you were the -- I think
17 he said you were respected in your capacity as chief of the police for
18 Serbia
19 Indeed, you testified, and we know from other testimony, that
20 after negotiations with General Clark, General Perisic, Mr. Naumann,
21 Mr. Milosevic, you were the one that they insisted on signing the
22 agreement. That is P837. Not even Mr. Perisic signed that one.
23 Everybody who came across you that we hear about first and then second
24 and have a high regard, a high respect for you as a professional
25 commander of the police force, the man in charge of the police force of
Page 10118
1 Serbia
2 engaged in anti-terrorist operations in Kosovo during the war in 1999, or
3 do you disown them?
4 A. In this lengthy question, you started from complete falsehoods.
5 As for Shaun Byrnes, he saw me once in his life, and he thinks he also
6 saw me twice, which is not true at all. He only saw me at negotiations,
7 which took place there and that is not in dispute. It wasn’t me who decided
8 to participate in negotiations, no; it was the President of Serbia and the
9 minister of the interior who decided that. I had spent years and years in
10 Kosovo, and what Byrnes said was quite natural. I knew every village, every
11 hamlet, every path and every road, and I knew the circumstances there. But
12 far be it that I was the supreme decision-maker there. Everybody knows who
13 was responsible for what. When I was ordered to take part in negotiations,
14 I did; when I was ordered, Sign this, I signed it. When others were told,
15 Go and do that, they would go and do whatever they were ordered.
16 I am repeating for the umpteenth time, not a single policeman who
17 was engaged in Kosovo in anti-terrorist activities or on the defence of
18 the country, I was not responsible for any one of them, for not a single
19 policeman. Yes, minister could appoint me head of staff, but he would
20 previously need to release me of my duties as chief of SJB so that I
21 could take up additional duties. And in that case, had I been head of
22 staff, then, yes, I would have been down there and I would have told you
23 loud and clear what it is that I was in charge of as head of staff in
24 Kosovo. However, it is quite clearly defined who was responsible for
25 what.
Page 10119
1 Q. Very well. I hear your answers.
2 MR. STAMP: Your Honours, I believe that that's the end of the
3 cross-examination. But since we are at the time or beyond the time, I'm
4 wondering if the Court could take the break. I don't have any intentions
5 of continuing, but I would like to formally announce that on resumption.
6 JUDGE PARKER: We will resume at 1.40.
7 MR. STAMP: Thank you, Your Honour.
8 --- Luncheon recess taken at 12.40 p.m.
9 --- On resuming at 1.43 p.m.
10 JUDGE PARKER: Does that conclude your cross-examination,
11 Mr. Stamp?
12 MR. STAMP: Yes, Your Honours. Thank you very much.
13 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you indeed.
14 Mr. Djurdjic.
15 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
16 Re-examination by Mr. Djurdjic:
17 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Djordjevic.
18 A. Good afternoon.
19 Q. I would like to clarify something that was raised by Mr. Stamp
20 about ranks and positions. So would you please tell me about the
21 relationship of a superior and subordinate. Is it regulated by rank or
22 by position that he holds?
23 A. Within the Ministry of the Interior --
24 Q. Let me just interrupt you. Please follow the transcript so that
25 you make appropriate breaks so that the lady who is interpreting can
Page 10120
1 interpret everything and the court reporter can record it.
2 A. At the Ministry of the Interior, it is the authority of the0
3 position that counts. So if somebody is chief of the secretariat,
4 regardless of the rank that that person holds, that person is superior to
5 everybody else working there. The same applies to the seat of the
6 ministry, chief of a department is the most important person regardless
7 of the rank that person holds.
8 I can give you two examples. For example, at the time of the
9 appointment to the position of the chief of SUP in Belgrade
10 was first lieutenant-colonel, and following that he was a colonel and he
11 was a superior to Sreten Lukic, who was major-general at the time.
12 Also, an example from the crime investigations department. Chief
13 of that administration at the seat of the ministry was a major-general.
14 His deputy was somebody who testified here and was a captain, but he as
15 deputy chief of the administration was superior to all
16 lieutenant-colonels, colonels, or majors who worked in the administration
17 of the crime investigations police.
18 Q. Thank you. Now what about the relationship in a situation where
19 a minister adopts a decision?
20 A. When one official adopts a decision or issues an order, it is
21 only he who can withdraw that order or modify it. A subordinate officer
22 cannot issue an order modifying an order that had been previously issued
23 by a superior officer. So I think that that situation is completely
24 clear when it comes to orders issued by officials, senior officials, at
25 the ministry.
Page 10121
1 Q. Thank you. Can you tell us, please, when it comes to the
2 minister's decision on establishing the staff for suppression of
3 terrorism in Kosovo and Metohija in 1998, June of that year --
4 MR. STAMP: May I just intervene here. I don't really wish to be
5 suggesting how the re-examination should be conducted, but may I ask that
6 counsel refer to the question or the area that he seeks -- and that is
7 the area from cross-examination that he seeks to clarify, so as to put
8 the question in context and assess if it is legitimate re-examination.
9 Thank you.
10 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Djurdjic, please carry on. It's clear, I
11 think, that the subject matter as the subject of your present questions
12 have been in a number of respects dealt with in cross-examination.
13 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Yes. The reference is page 9769,
14 line 24 and 25; and page 9770, line 1; as well as the following exhibit:
15 P1506 -- no, I apologise, P1507, MFI
16 Q. So my question, Mr. Djordjevic, was -- let me just see how I
17 formulated it. Can you tell us, please, given the decision that the
18 minister adopted in June of 1998 on establishing the staff for
19 suppression of terrorism in Kosovo and Metohija, were you able to act
20 contrary to that order or issue different orders and tasks that would
21 override that initial order -- decision?
22 A. The only modifications in relation to an order that was issued
23 could be made by the person who issued the original order, which was the
24 minister. I was not authorised nor was I able to change a single article
25 from that decision or vary it in any way. All of that came under the
Page 10122
1 sole authority of the person issuing the original decision or order,
2 which in this particular case was the minister.
3 Q. Thank you.
4 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Could we see P1506, please. Could
5 we see the following page, please. Further on, please. Further on,
6 please. B/C/S version we need the presidential decree on decorations.
7 Q. Yes, we have this presidential decree. Mr. Djordjevic, can you
8 tell us, please, what were the reasons given in the preamble to this
9 presidential decree here for giving decorations?
10 A. I think that we've covered this already, but it says here for
11 results achieved in carrying out security-related tasks aimed at
12 suppressing terrorism in Kosovo and Metohija and in defence of the
13 country from the aggression. So the security-related tasks aimed at
14 suppressing terrorists were in 1998 and 1999 and defence of the country
15 from the aggression was in 1999.
16 Q. Thank you. Mr. Djordjevic, can we now turn to the second page of
17 this document.
18 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Could we move it to the right,
19 please, the B/C/S version. No, one page back, please, in the B/C/S.
20 Yes, that's the one. No, no, can you please -- either reduce or scroll
21 down. Yes.
22 Q. Mr. Djordjevic, we see here the order of the first degree for
23 merit in the field of defence and security. Do you recognise any of the
24 persons listed here as colonels?
25 A. Yes, I know all of them, Maksimovic, Ivan, a colonel, he was
Page 10123
1 engaged in 1998. He had Belgrade
2 was there in 1999. He was chief of SUP in Gnjilane. Adamovic, Dragutin
3 was chief of Djakovica SUP
4 was chief of SUP
5 He was a retiree in 1999.
6 Q. Thank you.
7 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Could we now see the MFI document
8 P1507. Page 41, please. I think that's in the English version, 41.
9 Could we now scroll down, please. We need the lower part.
10 Q. In order to be of assistance to those who will be looking at it,
11 the SL initials in black letters, can you tell us, please, this
12 person - and this is Mr. Sreten Lukic - in the interview that he gave,
13 these words of his, to which period of time do they pertain? Do you see
14 what I'm referring to?
15 A. Here he speaks of 1998.
16 Q. And what does it say here in his reply? Can you see that?
17 A. Practically from mid-July and all the way up until late September
18 or early October in Pristina in addition to me there were constantly
19 chief of department, Mr. Djordjevic, and Obrad Stevanovic as assistant
20 minister and commander of PJP present.
21 Q. Thank you.
22 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Could we now see the previous
23 page -- or rather, Your Honours, I need instructions from you. Should I
24 now ask that this page or this portion of the page also be marked for
25 identification or not? Or is it enough what Mr. Stamp has already done?
Page 10124
1 JUDGE PARKER: I think this additional page should be marked as
2 well, Mr. Djurdjic.
3 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
4 JUDGE PARKER: I'm sorry, I misunderstood. It is already part of
5 that which is marked. You haven't gone beyond what is marked for
6 identification. Thank you.
7 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honours. It's on that
8 page, but it wasn't put to Mr. Djordjevic in cross-examination. This
9 portion wasn't put to him, this portion of the page, that's why I'm
10 asking. And I just put it to him.
11 And could we now see page 40, please.
12 Q. We can see, now, at the bottom --
13 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] If we can scroll down just a bit
14 to the end of the page.
15 Q. Mr. Djordjevic, at the bottom of the page, the person who was
16 interviewed -- or rather, tell me, please, what did the person who was
17 interviewed talk about?
18 A. He replied to the question that was put to him by saying the
19 staff has -- practically it had -- it has, and that's what the task was,
20 to co-ordinate, plan, and direct organisational units, that is to say
21 secretariats and attached units, number one in suppressing or preventing
22 terrorism.
23 Q. Mr. Djordjevic, words of Mr. Adamovic were put to you concerning
24 a meeting that you attended where some sort of a plan was presented in
25 the latter part of July 1998. Can you tell me, please, what plan was
Page 10125
1 discussed at that meeting?
2 A. It's not -- or rather, no plan was presented at that meeting;
3 rather, they conveyed an order of the minister to the chiefs of
4 secretariats and told them that the global plans for suppression of
5 terrorism had been adopted and that police with its units in
6 co-ordination with the army was tasked -- or rather, would have the task
7 to carry out anti-terrorist actions aimed at unblocking the roads and so
8 on.
9 The officials were told in most general terms that in the
10 following period they would be engaged in implementing the plan -- the
11 global plan on suppression of terrorism; however, the plan was never
12 presented to them. They were simply told, they were informed, that this
13 would be done and that they would work in accordance to other plans that
14 would be developed based on the global plan.
15 Q. Thank you. After this meeting that you referred to just now and
16 that you told us about, did you ever issue any kind of direct order to
17 any police unit concerning their engagement in anti-terrorist activities
18 that had been planned?
19 A. No. I think that sufficient explanation has been provided as to
20 how plan-based documents were prepared for individual actions; that is to
21 say I did not take part in the adoption of any decision or any order to
22 any unit, any police unit. So all activities of the attached police
23 units and the sent police units, as well as the secretariats, were issued
24 by the staff. It is the staff that planned their activities, issued
25 orders, checked what they were doing, et cetera. I have already
Page 10126
1 explained my role in detail during the examination-in-chief and the
2 cross-examination.
3 Q. Thank you. Mr. Djordjevic, you told us here that the
4 Special Anti-Terrorist Unit was established as an internal unit of the
5 Ministry of the Interior. Could you please tell us what your
6 responsibility actually was in relation to that unit.
7 A. I just have to say, as I've already noted, that this unit was
8 related to the police department that I headed in the 1980s. After that,
9 Radovan Stojicic, the commander of that unit, was appointed chief of the
10 RJB, and at the same time he was deputy minister. On that basis, as the
11 former commander of the special unit, he practically linked the unit to
12 himself.
13 After he got killed and after I became acting chief and then
14 chief of the RJB, I continued that tradition, if I can put it that way,
15 vis-à-vis the special unit. That is to say that I had the obligation of
16 having the unit make special proposals to me as the chief in respect of
17 what they needed, primarily in terms of material and financial resources
18 for support in carrying out training. My entire role boiled down to
19 that, as I have already said. The engagement of the units, though, was
20 within the power of the minister. So I as head of the RJB could not
21 engage part of that unit for a particular assignment until a decision on
22 that was made by the minister.
23 Q. Thank you. Did you ever command the SAJ unit in the period of
24 1998/1999?
25 A. No, never. I did not give them any tasks either.
Page 10127
1 Q. Thank you. Mr. Djordjevic, who decided that the
2 Special Anti-Terrorist Unit should be engaged in Kosovo and Metohija
3 during the course of 1998 and 1999?
4 A. The decision about that and also about the engagement of other
5 units, that is to say PJPs and the unit for special operations of the
6 state security department, was made by the minister.
7 Q. Thank you. During the engagement of the police units in
8 Kosovo and Metohija in 1998 and 1999, including the SAJ, who planned the
9 tasks and issued orders to these units?
10 A. It was only the staff that issued orders to them concerning what
11 their tasks would be on the basis of the decision made by the minister
12 related to the establishment of the staff for carrying out anti-terrorist
13 actions.
14 Q. Thank you.
15 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have P1474 now.
16 Q. Mr. Djordjevic, this is a letter that you sent to
17 "Nedeljni Telegraf" and that the Prosecutor showed you. Mr. Stamp did
18 not let you explain why it was that you wrote this letter.
19 A. Very often, the media wrote about one and the same events.
20 Things were being written and re-written in terms of what I actually did
21 do up to a degree, but many things were just fabrications. So I decided
22 to explain my role in 1998 and 1999. I was aware of the fact that
23 several years had gone by and that I won't be very specific with regard
24 to certain things, but it's not that I was defending myself before a
25 court of law then. So it's not that I had to explain it in the most
Page 10128
1 precise way possible. I wanted to put things in general terms, but I did
2 not keep silent about my role or my activity in 1998 or 1999. Perhaps
3 there were some imprecisions there or perhaps things that I thought at
4 that moment were not of relevance. But -- well, my wish was in a way to
5 respond to all the things that had been written about me, primarily those
6 that were bad.
7 Q. Thank you.
8 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have page 4 in
9 English and page 3 in B/C/S. If we could just scroll down a bit in the
10 B/C/S and perhaps the English version too. Yes, let's see the bottom as
11 well. No, no. In English it is on the top actually, that particular
12 section.
13 Q. Mr. Djordjevic, can you see the B/C/S version, the second
14 paragraph from the bottom?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Let me ask you something. You said here that the minister had
17 issued a decision, that the public security forces should be commanded
18 and controlled by the PJP commander, Lieutenant-General Obrad Stevanovic,
19 Major-General Sreten Lukic, and Colonel-General Vlastimir Djordjevic.
20 Major-General Sreten Lukic was the Chief of Staff. Could you explain
21 this particular portion of your letter?
22 A. In essence, that is what I said a few moments ago. I said this
23 rather imprecisely, but I did not keep silent about my own role or the
24 role of Obrad Stevanovic. I mentioned that Sreten Lukic was the
25 Chief of Staff. We saw what his obligations were, and in that respect we
Page 10129
1 saw what his role was. And we also saw that it was his obligation to act
2 on orders as he had been ordered by the decision, that is. We also
3 elaborated in detail what my role was and what the role of
4 Obrad Stevanovic was in Kosovo in 1998.
5 Q. Yes. But you state here that General Stevanovic at the time was
6 the commander of the PJPs.
7 A. Well, that's the imprecision too. He was not the PJP commander;
8 he was assistant minister. He acted on orders from the minister. And
9 previously, he was both commander of the special units and chief of the
10 administration, and that is why the minister decided that he should be
11 there too because he knew the people, he knew the territory. So as there
12 was not a single security-related task that was more important at that
13 time, the minister wanted all of us to be down there and to help out.
14 Practically, in the activities that were being carried out on behalf of
15 the ministry down there.
16 Q. Thank you.
17 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Can I have page 6 in English and
18 page 5 in B/C/S now.
19 Q. We see the year 1999 over here, Mr. Djordjevic; isn't that right?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And now look at the second paragraph where it says "for the head
22 of staff."
23 A. I cannot find that.
24 Q. Do you see the year 1999?
25 A. Yes.
Page 10130
1 Q. Now look at that paragraph up there -- rather, the second
2 paragraph, not the first one. There is this sentence that starts
3 somewhere around the middle, and it says:
4 "The minister appointed General Sreten Lukic as head of staff."
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And then the next sentence.
7 A. "He also decided that the special police unit in the AP of
8 Kosovo and Metohija be commanded by its commander General Obrad
9 Stevanovic" -- well, that is that imprecision again, the one that
10 deviates from everything else that we have said so far. So it was the
11 staff that was in charge of all the deployed and attached units, the
12 PJPs, the Special Anti-Terrorist Unit, and there was the unit for special
13 operations of the state security department. So again, it's this
14 imprecision of mine in this particular document.
15 Q. Thank you. In 1998 while you were in Kosovo and Metohija, did
16 you hear of the existence of a command of the PJPs?
17 A. No. There was only the staff that practically planned and
18 organised the work of all the units that had been sent down there.
19 Q. Thank you. Did you hear in 1998 of the existence in Pristina of
20 a commander of the PJPs who would be in Pristina and issue orders to
21 those units?
22 A. No. These units were only being issued by the MUP staff.
23 Q. Thank you. Mr. Djordjevic --
24 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Or rather, could we now have
25 page 7 in English and page 6 of the B/C/S version.
Page 10131
1 Q. Mr. Djordjevic, you have this section about civilian victims in
2 the area of Kosovo and Metohija. Can you find that section?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Have you found that?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. You say here:
7 "As for civilian victims in the territory of the autonomous province of
8 Kosovo and Metohija during the time of bombing, I did not know anything."
9 Can you tell us what it was that you wrote about here.
10 A. Well, in the printed media what was stated was that these were
11 civilian victims from Kosovo that were transferred to the territory of
12 Serbia
13 responded to here. And I said that the only crime that I was aware of
14 was the crime in Podujevo. I had been informed about that, and I also
15 knew what the organs in charge did, both vis-à-vis the victims and the
16 perpetrators. That crime was not dealt with by the press, and I was not
17 being accused of anything in that way. So that is all what I said in
18 this respect. By then the proceedings were over in Serbia, and it was a
19 well-known fact who had committed the crime and how.
20 Q. Thank you.
21 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Can we please now see
22 Exhibit P1226.
23 Q. Mr. Djordjevic, this document which was presented to you by
24 Mr. Stamp and I would only ask you to comment this last paragraph in this
25 report.
Page 10132
1 A. The last paragraph reads that -- that is to say that the
2 Pristina Corps commander is asking the army commander and says that:
3 "In view of the above, please work out in more detail the
4 engagement of the PrK units in the implementation of the plan."
5 In other words, the commander of the Pristina Corps couldn't act
6 on anyone's orders other than the orders of his superior, which in this
7 case was the 3rd Army commander. For that reason, he's asking him in
8 accordance with the global plan to allow and to provide more precise
9 instructions and guidance on the use of units of the Pristina Corps in
10 the implementation of the plan.
11 Q. Thank you.
12 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Can we now see Exhibit P1227.
13 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could the witness's other
14 microphone be switched on, please.
15 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. Mr. Djordjevic, what we have here now is another letter sent by
17 the Pristina Corps commander to the 3rd Army command on the
18 23rd of July, 1998. Can we please look at the second page of this
19 document and the last paragraph on that page.
20 A. Here again we have the same situation in which the Pristina Corps
21 commander is asking approval for the use of units according to the global
22 plan from the 3rd Army commander, i.e., his superior officer. And that
23 was the principle to applied to each and every engagement of units that
24 took place in 1998 as well as the preparation of plans. Everything was
25 based on the general or the global plan; however, for each action the
Page 10133
1 Pristina Corps commander had to obtain approval from his superior
2 officer.
3 Q. Thank you. Can we now please have Exhibit D323.
4 Mr. Djordjevic, this is a document dated 31st July, 1998, sent by
5 the Pristina Corps commander to the command of the 3rd Army. I'm
6 interested only in the second paragraph of this letter. Please take a
7 look at it and tell us what this is all about.
8 A. Probably the corps commander had certain limitations and
9 restrictions imposed previously by the orders of the 3rd Army command
10 that were in force. Therefore, he is asking for these orders to be
11 modified or rendered invalid, which will more closely define the
12 obligations of the corps. This is another situation that educates how
13 things were working in the army and what was the relationship between the
14 corps and the army.
15 Q. Thank you.
16 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Can we now please look at
17 Exhibit D424.
18 Q. Mr. Djordjevic, here is a document dated the 1st of August, 1998
19 sent by the commander of the Pristina Corps from the forward command post
20 of the 3rd Army. Can you please explain to us item 2, last paragraph.
21 A. I know that the 3rd Army had a forward command post in Pristina
22 where the corps commander, General Pavkovic, received from that forward
23 command post precise orders relating to the use of the corps forces. So
24 this is how I perceive this, as another request sent to the 3rd Army,
25 that is to say his request and approval to continue operations against
Page 10134
1 the terrorist forces according to plan.
2 Q. Thank you.
3 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Can we please now look at
4 Exhibit D340. Can we please look at page 2 in English and that should
5 also be page 2 in B/C/S.
6 Q. Mr. Djordjevic, can you please comment on item 1.4.
7 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Excuse me, before you begin your
8 answer, I would like to say that this document is dated the 2nd of
9 October, 1998, which represents an analysis of the implementation of
10 tasks in Kosovo and Metohija and the forward command post of the 3rd
11 Army.
12 Q. Please, can you now answer my question.
13 A. In this letter it says that the command of the corps forces
14 engaged in securing the state border and in the area of the IKM, which is
15 the forward command post of the Pristina Corps in Djakovica. I spoke
16 about this earlier, and that means that the use of forces in the vicinity
17 of the border was in charge of this IKM, whereas the command over the
18 entire forces of the army in the area of Kosovo and Metohija, the forward
19 command post of the army in Pristina was in charge since 27th of July.
20 So based on this, I knew that there was an IK M in Pristina as
21 well. According to this letter, the command over the overall forces of
22 the 3rd Army, including the corps forces, the forward command post of the
23 army in Pristina was in charge.
24 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Could we please now look at page 7
25 in English and page 6 in B/C/S.
Page 10135
1 Q. Mr. Djordjevic, let's look at point 4.3, proposed measures. I'm
2 interested in bullet point number 3, which starts that "Whenever units of
3 the MUP are engaged ..."
4 A. Well, this is a proposal for measures to be implemented by the
5 IKM of the 3rd Army in Pristina. It says that whenever units of MUP
6 of -- whenever more units of the MUP are engaged together with the army,
7 in the future -- that is to say the army or Pristina Corps, in the future
8 an organ shall be appointed to co-ordinate the activities of all MUP
9 forces. This is a proposal for measures that I'm not familiar with
10 because it was well-known who was responsible for all MUP forces in
11 Kosovo and Metohija. Therefore, I don't understand this proposal for
12 these measures to be undertaken.
13 Q. Thank you. Now, Mr. Djordjevic, we spoke about co-ordinating
14 meetings held during the implementation of the global plan in the summer
15 of 1998. Can you tell me, among the army representatives, who attended
16 these meetings?
17 A. These meetings were always attended by the commander of the
18 Pristina Corps, General Pavkovic, and also on a regular basis the
19 then-Colonel Djakovic who later became general. I think that the
20 commander of the 3rd Army attended, but very rarely. I think he only
21 came a few times and the Chief of Staff Lazarevic attended once or twice.
22 It is possible that someone accompanied the army command, but as far as
23 army is concerned, these are the people who attended these meetings.
24 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Can we please now have
25 Exhibit P886, page 132 in English and 137 in B/C/S.
Page 10136
1 Your Honours, can I give the accused a hard copy of this
2 document?
3 JUDGE PARKER: Yes.
4 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Although the Prosecutor's copy is
5 available as well --
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There's no need. I have this copy
7 from the Prosecution.
8 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation]
9 Q. So the date here is 21st of October, 1998?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Mr. Djordjevic, we see here in the introductory note the
12 absentees. Is your name among them?
13 A. Those who are absent are Minic, Matkovic, and Lukic. So
14 according to this document it seems that I was present.
15 Q. Thank you.
16 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Can we now move to page 141 in
17 B/C/S and 135 in English.
18 Q. Mr. Djordjevic, this is now minutes of the meeting of the
19 22nd October, 1998
20 A. No.
21 Q. Thank you. Mr. Djordjevic, in the examination-in-chief - and I
22 also think that you mentioned that during the cross-examination - your
23 father died during the October negotiations. Can you tell me exactly
24 when was it that your father died.
25 A. That was on the 20th of October, at around 9.00 p.m. is when I
Page 10137
1 received this information. At the time, I was in negotiations relating
2 to these agreements. So on the evening of the 20th he died, and on the
3 21st of October I transported his body from Belgrade where he died to
4 Vladicin Han, or rather, to our village. On the 22nd we buried him in
5 Vladicin Han. After that, I went back to re-join the negotiations. I
6 think it was on the 23rd of October.
7 Q. Just tell us the year, please.
8 A. 1998.
9 Q. Thank you.
10 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Can we please now look at
11 Exhibit P87. We still haven't got the English version.
12 Q. Mr. Djordjevic, what we have here is minutes of the meeting of
13 the operations inter-departmental staff for the suppression of terrorism
14 in Kosovo and Metohija. In the preamble, can you tell us when this
15 meeting took place?
16 A. It took place on the 29th of October, 1998, at the
17 Beli Dvor palace.
18 Q. And when was this document compiled? Can you see that in the
19 heading?
20 A. It says the 2nd of November, 1998.
21 Q. Thank you.
22 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Could we now see page 3 in the
23 English version and also in the B/C/S version.
24 Q. Mr. Djordjevic, you see here at the very bottom we have a -- this
25 underlined title, and then the paragraph right above it. Would you
Page 10138
1 please read it and tell us.
2 A. It says here:
3 "Pursuant to the decision adopted at the 5th Session of the
4 Supreme Defence Council held on the 9th of June, 1998, pursuant to the
5 Law on the Army, the Law on the Defence, and the roles of service of the
6 Yugoslav Army, a plan to suppress terrorism in Kosovo and Metohija was
7 drawn up, which provided for the engagement of units of the Serbian MUP
8 and the Army of Yugoslavia
9 This is what I have said earlier.
10 Q. Thank you.
11 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Could we now see page 7 of the
12 English version, the same page in the B/C/S.
13 Q. Mr. Djordjevic, see here we have item 2, item 1 and item 2.
14 Would you please read and comment on this portion that pertains to good
15 organisation.
16 A. I think that Pavkovic speaks here. I think that he briefed on
17 the implementation of the plan, and he says that:
18 "Well-organised co-ordinated action and co-operation between the
19 MUP and VJ units and other factors and organs of authority during the
20 conduct of combat operations."
21 Basically that this entire good organisation and co-ordinated
22 action and co-operation was something that was a feature of the
23 implementation of this plan.
24 Q. Thank you. Did anybody here in this meeting brief as a head of
25 that co-ordination body, and you were at this meeting. So did anybody do
Page 10139
1 that?
2 A. No. General Pavkovic on behalf of the Pristina Corps gave his
3 briefing and he also did it in the capacity of the author of this plan.
4 He spoke of the implementation of the plan in general terms. And then
5 after him, General Lukic briefed on the obligations of the MUP and some
6 basic indicators of the activities of this staff concerning these tasks.
7 Q. Thank you. And did any of the politicians brief in their
8 capacity as leaders or heads of that co-ordination body?
9 A. In principle, there were two or three meetings prior to that and
10 then in this one too. The briefing followed the established routine.
11 Pavkovic for Pristina Corps, Lukic on behalf of the Pristina staff; and
12 if any of the politicians wanted to give any remarks, they could do so,
13 about what was going on down there, about their general observations.
14 But never did they do that as heads of command, as chairman of command,
15 or in any other similar capacity.
16 Q. Thank you.
17 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Could we now see P668, please.
18 Q. Let me just inform you that these are the minutes from the
19 meeting of the MUP staff in Pristina on the 28th of July, 1998.
20 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Could we have page 4 of the
21 English version, please. I think that it's page 2 in the Serbian
22 version. Next page of the B/C/S version, please -- no, no, the English
23 version is fine.
24 Q. In the English version, in the second paragraph, we see that
25 minister takes the floor for the second time. And then you have it in
Page 10140
1 the beginning of the third paragraph, Mr. Djordjevic. Just please look
2 at what it says here in that paragraph:
3 Minister Vlajko Stojiljkovic: "'We have a plan ...'" and then
4 on.
5 A. Yes. I did not attend this meeting, but one can see that
6 Minister Stojiljkovic says "We have a plan." And then he asks the head
7 of the staff whether everything went according to the plan and in
8 co-ordination with the Army of Yugoslavia. This was three days after the
9 beginning of activities, and the minister is inquiring about the
10 co-ordination with the army. He's not inquiring about other matters,
11 just the co-ordination.
12 Q. Thank you. Mr. Djordjevic, tell us, please, members of reserve
13 police squads, RPOs, were they on the payroll of the MUP?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Mr. Djordjevic, what tasks did members of the RPO discharged
16 professionally?
17 A. Those were villagers, locals, from that village. So they were
18 farmers and it's possible that some of them held jobs in some companies
19 too. That is to say they had their jobs outside of the police and the
20 army.
21 Q. Thank you. You told us that reserve policemen could also be
22 members of reserve police squads, RPOs. Can you explain this, please.
23 A. Yes, they could become members of RPOs as locals from that
24 village, as residents of that village. And only in that territory, only
25 for the defence of their village, could they be members of an RPO; just
Page 10141
1 as certain members of the Army of Yugoslavia from that village could also
2 become members of that RPO. But it could be also anybody else, just
3 regular, normal citizens who were not from that -- who were neither
4 members of the police or the army.
5 Q. When members of reserve forces were not engaged as such, did they
6 have the status of authorised officials?
7 A. No. The status of authorised officials and everything that
8 carries with it in terms of entitlements is something that they could get
9 only if they became members of a regular MUP unit.
10 Q. Thank you. When members of reserve forces were not engaged as
11 such and they were members of reserve police squads, RPOs, do they have
12 the same rights as members of regular police structures?
13 A. They have no rights similar to those that members of the ministry
14 have. They, just like other residents of that village, are engaged in
15 the defence of their village. They have no obligations or rights of MUP
16 authorised officials or anything of that sort. They are simply people
17 who are engaged in the defence of their village.
18 Q. Thank you. And when these persons are engaged in reserve MUP
19 forces, when they're mobilised, in addition to having status of
20 authorised officials, do they -- are they also entitled to other rights
21 as other members of regular MUP forces?
22 A. They are entitled to a salary, and they also are entitled to
23 everything else that authorised officials are entitled to when they carry
24 out their regular duties, but only when they're engaged in police units.
25 Q. Thank you. In case of mobilisation, what do members of RPO,
Page 10142
1 reserve police squads, do?
2 A. They respond to a call-up issued, be it by the police or by the
3 army, depending on where they are listed as reserve forces members; they
4 go to their respective units; and their engagement in an RPO ceases at
5 that point.
6 Q. Thank you.
7 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Could we now have P1504 -- 1054.
8 Q. Mr. Djordjevic, what we have here is a document of the
9 Kosovska Mitrovica SUP
10 on the 1st of July, 1998. And here in several places, wherever there are
11 item numbers, 1, 2, 3, 4, regardless of the location to which it
12 pertains -- but just read out to us, please, under item 1 what it says
13 here.
14 A. It says here:
15 "Reserve police squad Ibarska Slatina."
16 Q. Thank you. Please tell us, are police stations mentioned
17 anywhere in this sentence?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Thank you.
20 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I wanted to show you
21 this document as an illustration due to the translation into English,
22 where police stations are mentioned [In English] reserve police branch
23 stations.
24 Q. [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Djordjevic.
25 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Now could we have P886 once again,
Page 10143
1 please. Page 55 in the English version and page 56 in the B/C/S version,
2 please.
3 Q. Mr. Djordjevic, this portion here, the presentation by Mr. Minic,
4 do you see that? This is the meeting held on the 20th of August, 1998
5 Have you found it?
6 A. Yes, I see that.
7 Q. Have you found Mr. Minic?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. I wanted to ask you whether you ever received any report in
10 relation to the meetings mentioned here?
11 A. I don't understand your question.
12 Q. Do you see where these brackets have been placed?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Did you ever receive a report about the meetings that were held
15 in these villages and what was happening in these villages?
16 A. Ah, that's what you mean. No, I never received any minutes or
17 reports.
18 Q. Thank you. From July 1998 up until October 1998, did you receive
19 any report about the activity of the RPOs?
20 A. No, no. It was the staff that dealt with this activity, and it
21 was the staff that ordered what measures should be taken. And they also
22 received reports from secretariats.
23 Q. Thank you. As for reports on the activity of reserve police
24 squads, did you receive them from October 1998 until the end of the
25 war, 1999?
Page 10144
1 A. I never received a single report with regard to this matter.
2 Q. Thank you. Mr. Djordjevic, in relation to the corpses, did you
3 issue any task to Mr. Bogdan Lipovac?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Thank you. In relation to the corpses, did you issue any task to
6 Mr. Dragan Pasanovic?
7 A. No. I explained here in detail what all the persons were that I
8 contacted in this respect. I explained all of that in great detail here.
9 Q. Thank you. Are you aware of any activity of theirs in relation
10 to the corpses?
11 A. I don't know whether and on which basis and upon whose
12 orders they were engaged with regard to these questions.
13 Q. Thank you. Can you tell us the following: During the war, did
14 you attend any meeting with the president of the Federal Republic
15 Yugoslavia
16 A. During the war, there was this one meeting on the 4th of May.
17 That was the only meeting that I attended.
18 Q. Thank you. Can you tell us where this meeting was held?
19 A. I think that this meeting was held in Tolstojeva -- near
20 Tolstojeva Street because that is where the club of Members of Parliament
21 is. It's a building near that building. I don't know whose building it
22 is. I don't know that to this day or what building, but at any rate on
23 these premises in Tolstojeva Street.
24 Q. Thank you. During the cross-examination on Friday, Mr. Stamp put
25 a question to you. I don't want to interpret the question, so I'm going
Page 10145
1 to quote it from page 73, lines 23 through 75, and lines 1 through 3 on
2 page 74. Unfortunately I'm working with the working version, the
3 LiveNote. The question is:
4 "Did you not have any knowledge at the time when you planned the
5 defence of the country that there had been a toughening of stances on the
6 part of some persons from the leadership of the country that included
7 expulsion of the Kosovo Albanian population from Kosovo as a solution of
8 the Kosovo problem? Did you not have knowledge of the fact that many
9 persons in the leadership expressed these views?"
10 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: We do not have the actual
11 transcript.
12 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. Please respond to this question.
14 A. I don't know why I did not answer this question because there was
15 no reason for me not to answer it. It is possible -- well, I remember
16 now that it was probably during that footage of the rally of the
17 Serb Radical Party. I think it was then. And I focused on the question
18 pertaining to the leader of that political party and his speech at the
19 rally of his own party. So I'm not taking into account what that person
20 said in parliament or the meeting of his political party. I did not hear
21 from a single politician of any intention or of any plan or of any
22 activity or of anyone who was supposed to carry out that plan if there
23 was any such thing in relation to the expulsion of Albanians from
24 Kosovo and Metohija.
25 Q. Thank you.
Page 10146
1 JUDGE PARKER: Is that a convenient time do you think,
2 Mr. Djurdjic?
3 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Yes, I'll be very brief,
4 Your Honour, during the next session.
5 JUDGE PARKER: I think an opportunity for you to reflect might be
6 useful during the break so that you can be sure you've covered
7 everything.
8 We will adjourn now and resume at 3.40.
9 --- Recess taken at 3.13 p.m.
10 --- On resuming at 3.42 p.m.
11 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Djurdjic.
12 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
13 Q. Mr. Djordjevic, you told us that, to the best of your knowledge
14 during 1998 and 1999, volunteer units or paramilitary units were not sent
15 to Kosovo and Metohija. Could you please tell us how come you know that?
16 A. I was familiar with the way in which volunteers were sent through
17 the Army of Yugoslavia
18 para-police unit was sent through the police there. I would have known
19 that because the police administration worked with all the police units
20 that were being sent. So had there been any activity in this respect
21 from the level of the ministry, I would have been informed about it
22 through the administration.
23 Q. Thank you. You told us that you knew about this because it was
24 the police administration that dealt with that. Tell us, please, for
25 which units did the police administration implement the minister's
Page 10147
1 decision on the engagement of those units?
2 A. They worked on logistics and sending the reservists of the PJPs
3 who were engaged in accordance with the minister's order.
4 Q. Thank you. Can you tell us who decided that you should take part
5 in the October negotiations in 1998?
6 A. I've already said that several times. It was
7 President Milutinovic and Minister Stojiljkovic who decided that.
8 Q. Thank you. I put this question to you for today's transcript, so
9 that we would regulate that.
10 Mr. Djordjevic, after the crimes that were committed by the
11 reservists in Podujevo on the 28th of March, 1998, could you please tell
12 me where this unit was returned?
13 A. That unit -- immediately after the crime -- or rather, these
14 members of the unit were immediately returned to the locality where they
15 were stationed before they went to the territory of Kosovo
16 This was decided by the staff. So it was in Prolom Banja where the
17 police administration had provided accommodation for them until the staff
18 decided on their attachment to the Special Anti-Terrorist Unit.
19 Q. Thank you. Although you've already said this, but is
20 Prolom Banja in the territory of Kosovo
21 A. Prolom Banja is about 15 or 20 kilometres outside Kosovo, that is
22 to say it's in the territory of Serbia
23 Q. Thank you. When was demobilisation supposed to be carried out,
24 and when was this returned unit -- or rather, when were the members of
25 the reserve force supposed to be returned? Where did Mr. Trajkovic go
Page 10148
1 and the protected witness? I don't want to mention his name.
2 A. They went -- well, first of all, Trajkovic knew where the unit
3 was and he went there. I think that he first contacted the OUP in that
4 area, and then they carried out the job that they went there to carry
5 out.
6 Q. Thank you. Where did they actually go? Tell us what the name of
7 that particular location is.
8 A. That was the OUP of Kursumlija, the department of the interior in
9 Kursumlija, that is to say Kursumlija on whose territory is Prolom Banja
10 as well.
11 Q. Thank you. And after that where did they go?
12 A. After Kursumlija, after they returned their weapons - I don't
13 know how the services in charge handled this - everyone of them went to
14 their own homes.
15 Q. Thank you. The protected witness, to the best of your knowledge,
16 was he ever in Kosovo and Metohija during the war?
17 A. I do not know of him being in Kosovo and Metohija at all.
18 Q. Thank you.
19 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would have no
20 further questions for the accused, and I would, in this way, complete my
21 re-direct.
22 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much. You really meant it that
23 you'd be quick, didn't you. Thank you.
24 [Trial Chamber confers]
25 Questioned by the Court:
Page 10149
1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Djordjevic, I would like to ask you two
2 questions. One is related to inter-organisational structures in the MUP.
3 We saw several decisions by the minister, signed by the minister, about
4 different topics. If a minister, your minister, signed any decision, who
5 was drafting it?
6 A. All decisions are drafted by the joint services administration,
7 and they submit that to the minister. As for personnel appointments and
8 as for this particular decision too - I don't know which one you have in
9 mind, actually - but, anyway, these decisions are written up at the
10 appropriate administrations within the ministry.
11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: And who drafted the decisions you signed,
12 yourself, or on behalf of the -- and with the authority of the
13 minister Stojiljkovic?
14 A. Those decisions were also drafted by those administrations. So
15 there would be the basic decision, and then there would be an auxiliary
16 decision from me; and it is these decisions -- these administrations that
17 drafted these decisions, status-related decisions, they would include my
18 signature, and I would in effect sign these decisions.
19 JUDGE FLUEGGE: In those cases, this special unit was drafting
20 decisions for the minister, was it shown to you before it was put to the
21 minister?
22 A. No. The special unit was not drafting any decisions, if that's
23 what you mean. They were not in a position to draft any decisions. They
24 would just send requests to me if they needed some equipment or
25 something. They did not write up any decisions.
Page 10150
1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Perhaps you didn't understand my question or I
2 put it to you in a wrong manner. I would like to know if -- you
3 mentioned the decision, the basic decision, and then were drafted by
4 those administrations, that means by your unit or the state security unit
5 or by -- what do you mean by "those administrations"?
6 Can you explain where is this joint services administration
7 located in the ministry, in the MUP, under which -- under whose
8 authority?
9 A. Well, all administrations are in the public security according to
10 the systemisation -- actually, there were a few organisational units
11 outside the RJB, this is the institute for security, the different
12 schools, et cetera. But all the other administrations are within public
13 security. They are fully at the disposal of the minister, and it is the
14 minister who issues orders as to what each and every administration is
15 supposed to prepare and when. But, formally, they are within public
16 security. And there was an assistant minister who was answerable to the
17 minister for these particular matters, say the joint services and other
18 such affairs.
19 JUDGE FLUEGGE: That means a person who is drafting a decision
20 for the minister is member of this joint services administration and then
21 is sending this draft to whom first and then to the minister, or is it
22 going directly to the minister without having reviewed by any other
23 person?
24 A. The minister gives them instructions what to do through his
25 assistant who is in charge of these affairs, and then the decision is
Page 10151
1 given to the minister for signing. If he has any remarks or objections,
2 he then demands it to be amended, whether it be a decision or a letter or
3 anything that he has to sign. So he either signs it immediately or maybe
4 thereafter.
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: You said by the responsible assistant. Do you
6 mean assistant minister or assistant?
7 A. Assistant minister.
8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: That means before a draft is submitted to the
9 minister, you saw it in advance; and then it comes back from the minister
10 with a signature and you are -- it's your duty to carry out the -- or to
11 send it to the relevant institutions?
12 A. The minister had a number of assistants, another three in
13 addition to myself. To whom of these ministers he would entrust this
14 material, this particular assistant would prepare the material. And
15 according to the minister's requests, the document drafted in that manner
16 would be presented to the minister, and then it was up to him to decide
17 whether to sign it immediately or to request any amendments to be made.
18 That was the role of the assistant minister. Sometimes he may have
19 entrusted me with a request to prepare a letter, and then I, by making
20 use of these administrations within the departments, I would prepare
21 them. And he would treat these documents and these drafts in the same
22 manner that he treated other such affairs according to how he saw fit.
23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much.
24 JUDGE BAIRD: Mr. Djordjevic, I want to take you back to the
25 proceedings of last week Friday, the 11th. Now, in answer to a question
Page 10152
1 by the Prosecutor -- actually, he asked you whether you had attended a
2 co-ordinating meeting with Mr. Milutinovic, Pavkovic, Lukic, and others
3 at Belgrade
4 "I may have attended that meeting."
5 Now, do you recollect this?
6 A. Yes, I remember saying that.
7 JUDGE BAIRD: Now, could you be a bit more specific. Did you or
8 did you not attend that meeting in your capacity as chief of public
9 security department?
10 A. I attended this meeting because according to the minister's order
11 we were invited and we came to the meeting. Yes --
12 JUDGE BAIRD: So you did --
13 A. -- one might say as the chief of the public security department.
14 JUDGE BAIRD: Okay, thank you.
15 A. Yes, yes.
16 JUDGE BAIRD: If I may, I want to refer, now, to the meeting on
17 the 29th of October, 1998
18 that you did not attend that meeting as a member of the
19 inter-departmental staff. Do you recollect that? You didn't attend that
20 meeting as a member of the inter-departmental staff.
21 A. Yes, I remember what I said. I said that I was present, but I
22 said that I was not familiar with that body and with that name of that
23 body --
24 JUDGE BAIRD: [Previous translation continues] ...
25 A. -- I didn't know who set up this body and told us that: You are
Page 10153
1 going to be members of this body, and it's going to be called
2 inter-departmental staff.
3 JUDGE BAIRD: All right. Now, my question to you is: In what
4 capacity did you attend that meeting?
5 A. I could only have attended this meeting as the head of the
6 department based on the invitation from the minister, and I always
7 attended such meetings in my official capacity, that is, the chief of the
8 public security department.
9 JUDGE BAIRD: I thank you very much indeed.
10 JUDGE PARKER: Can I ask you one or two short matters,
11 Mr. Djordjevic. The events at Racak, they were in the January, you
12 described how, I think, on the 18th of January you left Racak and that
13 area and went first to Pristina and then to Belgrade. And you indicated
14 you'd left Racak as soon as the investigating team was able to enter the
15 mosque. Do I correctly remember the essence of what you were saying?
16 A. Yes, that's correct.
17 JUDGE PARKER: Why was it that you understood that your work was
18 at an end, your responsibility, when the investigating judge and the
19 other members of the investigating team were able to enter the mosque?
20 A. Well, because, at that point, the Serbian authorities were able
21 to verify for themselves what happened there and the consequences of what
22 had happened. Because up until that moment, the Serbian authorities and
23 the judicial organs were -- they were not able to conduct the proper
24 procedure according to their authority and powers under the law.
25 JUDGE PARKER: I'm not clear why their responsibilities only
Page 10154
1 concerned the mosque. From what we have understood from you and others,
2 there'd been many people killed. Why is it that the mosque was the only
3 place they needed to visit?
4 A. I said that the judicial organs were able, in the area where
5 armed operations had been carried out by placing this territory under the
6 control of the Serbian forces, that the judicial organs in this entire
7 area had an opportunity to conduct an on-site investigation and collect
8 evidence. However, the bodies of those who were killed were inside the
9 mosque according to the reports available at the time.
10 However, on that occasion, the investigating judge conducted
11 other procedures on the field. They found pieces of weapons that were
12 used in the attacks, they found cartridges and other evidence that they
13 were interested in. That is a routine on-site investigation. So they
14 had the whole territory under their control, and due to that they were
15 able to carry out all the procedures provided by the law. As far as the
16 bodies were concerned, the bodies were already in the mosque because that
17 is what the report from the field submitted by policemen said.
18 JUDGE PARKER: The investigation would normally involve not only
19 looking at dead bodies but also the locations where bodies were found,
20 scenes of any physical evidence, blood, cartridge cases, weapons,
21 et cetera, were located. It would seem to me that all of those locations
22 would need to be visited in the course of an investigation. Is that
23 something that you would agree with?
24 A. Yes. I'm sure that since the police had secured the area where
25 the anti-terrorist activities were carried out, that the investigating
Page 10155
1 judge carried out all these procedures according to the law that you are
2 talking about. That means securing the area where anti-terrorist actions
3 were taken and that they collected all the valuable evidence. Since this
4 territory was under the control of the police, the judicial organs were
5 free to do whatever they thought suitable.
6 JUDGE PARKER: Well, that leaves me still unclear then why you
7 felt you should leave or could leave the moment they had reached the
8 mosque. They had investigations that might take them to many parts of at
9 least the village if not outside it. Can you help me?
10 A. This area where these clashes had taken place at that point in
11 time was under full control of the police forces. The police forces were
12 ready and capable to ensure that a proper on-site investigation could be
13 completed. There was no doubt that whatever the investigating judge and
14 the investigating team wanted to do, they were able to do. And they
15 entered. I think it was mentioned in their report. They also entered
16 the trenches where fighting took place, where they found pieces of
17 weapons and cartridge and other evidence that was available on the ground
18 because until two or three days before that this area was under the
19 control of the KLA.
20 JUDGE PARKER: Had you been into the village yourself in that few
21 days at any time?
22 A. No, I have never been to the village. I went as far as the
23 department, and that happened on the morning of the 18th. I spent three
24 or four hours there while all this was going on, and after that I went
25 back to Pristina. I spent some time in Pristina and then went back to
Page 10156
1 Belgrade
2 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you for that.
3 Just one other matter. You mentioned the decision of the
4 minister of the 16th of June, 1998, the effect of that being to combine
5 both the public security department and the state security department of
6 the ministry. Have I made the decision of the minister clear enough to
7 you?
8 Had that been known to you at all beforehand, that that could
9 occur or would occur?
10 A. Yes, I became aware of that when the minister adopted this
11 decision and signed it. At that moment, I knew that he had made up a
12 single body composed of representatives of the both departments, with the
13 task that was specified in the decision.
14 JUDGE PARKER: What I was interested in is whether this was
15 something you had expected or understood might happen before the minister
16 reached his decision.
17 A. At one point, after my decision was issued, a few days after that
18 he decided to set up the staff as described in the order. I had not
19 known that he was going to set up this kind of staff. He had an overall
20 insight into the situation. He knew what the obligations were. He knew
21 what the capabilities of both departments were. So it was up to him,
22 because he didn't ask me for any opinion or advice, the staff was already
23 there, and I had my decision -- he, therefore, decided to combine both
24 departments and to have a single leadership and a single staff
25 co-ordinating the activities of the both departments. This is how he set
Page 10157
1 up this staff, and a year later - that is to say towards the end of May
2 or June 1999 - he set up another staff.
3 JUDGE PARKER: Your own decision I think you said was on the
4 10th of June. Was I correct in understanding that it was really a
5 routine decision appointing or re-appointing because the former staff had
6 served a year and needed to be the subject of a fresh appointment?
7 A. In principle, after the expiration of one year, this staff had to
8 be re-shuffled and new personnel appointed. The decision about who was
9 going to be at the head of this staff, regardless of the fact that I
10 signed this decision, I needed to obtain approval from the minister and
11 his consent about who was going to be at the head of the staff, in which
12 he was particularly interested. Only after having obtained his approval
13 was I able to issue the decision and to appoint the person as stipulated
14 there.
15 Therefore, I wasn't and I couldn't have adopted this decision on
16 my own. He had to endorse it. And based on that, I issued a decision
17 and everything that went with it. However, a few days after that he
18 realised that this should probably be organised in a different manner.
19 He drafted a decision according to his own assessment. And it was a good
20 decision in any way because both departments focused and concentrated
21 their capabilities on one single task. So to all intents and purposes,
22 he invalidated my decision just a few days later, and his decision taken
23 on the 16th of June remained in force.
24 JUDGE PARKER: You had proposed General Sreten Lukic to head the
25 staff when you made your appointments of the 10th of June; is that
Page 10158
1 correct?
2 A. Yes, that's correct.
3 JUDGE PARKER: So the minister and you had similar appreciations
4 of the capacity of General Lukic?
5 A. Well, yes. He was an experienced police official. He had
6 graduated from the Military Academy
7 He was someone who had been in Kosovo before. He was a prominent leader,
8 and he fulfilled all the requirements to be appointed the head of the staff.
9 JUDGE PARKER: You hadn't discussed with the head of the other
10 department that it could be a good step to take to combine the two for
11 the purpose of combatting terrorism?
12 A. No, no, I hadn't discussed it. These were two completely
13 separate departments. The only person above the both was the minister.
14 Therefore, it was his decision, it was his view of the situation. And
15 because of that, I didn't discuss this topic with the chief of the state
16 security.
17 JUDGE PARKER: Did you think it was a good idea?
18 A. In view of the complexity of the task that lay ahead, at any rate
19 it would have been useful to make use of the capabilities and capacities
20 of both departments in order to fight the terrorists. I thought that
21 both our departments should make good use of their capabilities in order
22 to confront and counter terrorism.
23 JUDGE PARKER: Well, you see that it would be a good idea. You
24 hadn't suggested it?
25 A. The minister had more information. I didn't have the state
Page 10159
1 security intelligence about the situation, that is to say the information
2 that they had at their disposal. They provided this information directly
3 to the minister, therefore he was much better informed about the whole
4 problem. All I knew was what I learned through my department and
5 relevant reports. In any case, he was fully informed about all the
6 problems and all the angles of all the problems; and pursuant to that, he
7 decided to establish such an organisational form involving both the
8 departments in combatting terrorism in Kosovo.
9 JUDGE PARKER: And it was a decision, you say, that wasn't
10 discussed with you at all before it happened?
11 A. No, no, this wasn't discussed with me.
12 JUDGE PARKER: Even though it affected very significantly the
13 department of which you were head?
14 A. Yes, you're right, but the top senior official was the minister,
15 which made him responsible for both departments and the ministry as a
16 whole. The ministry as a whole had a single task to combat terrorism and
17 terrorist activities down there.
18 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much for that.
19 The process of questioning you is at an end. You may now, of
20 course, return to your normal place in the courtroom. Thank you for
21 that. The officer will assist you.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours, for giving
23 me this opportunity to review this whole issue in such great detail.
24 [The witness withdrew]
25 JUDGE PARKER: Are you able to hear us now? Is that better?
Page 10160
1 THE ACCUSED: Okay.
2 JUDGE PARKER: [Microphone not activated]
3 THE INTERPRETER: Your microphone, please, Judge.
4 JUDGE PARKER: -- or discussed at this point?
5 What I asked was that there -- was there any matter that needs to
6 be raised or discussed at this point from your point of view?
7 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours. If you can set
8 aside your decision banning contact with the accused.
9 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
10 Mr. Stamp, any matter that needs to be raised at this point?
11 MR. STAMP: No. Thank you very much, Your Honours.
12 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
13 One of the advantages of the accused being able to finish his
14 evidence is that there is no longer any reason for him to be out of
15 communication with you. You may, of course, now have normal contact with
16 him during the break.
17 Clearly there is no prospect of us commencing the other witness
18 you had planned for today. We won't commence that witness, so that you
19 may each relax.
20 We will now adjourn. We wish all present in court the
21 compliments of this Christmas and New Year season. We will resume, as we
22 have indicated, in January. Because of court times and travel
23 commitments, unless you want me in here having just got off a long plane
24 flight and not very attentive, it will not be feasible to sit as we had
25 planned on the Tuesday, the 19th. So we will resume sitting on
Page 10161
1 Wednesday, 20 January. That should give all counsel an adequate time to
2 look into the preparation of their respective cases, and in particular
3 Defence counsel the opportunity to plan ahead for their witnesses as they
4 need to come. And I would hope that opportunity will be taken of that
5 slightly extended break to ensure that things move smoothly and quickly
6 when we resume.
7 With that having been said, we now adjourn until 20 January of
8 next year.
9 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 4.25 p.m.
10 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 20th day of
11 January, 2010, at 2.15 p.m.
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