1 DAY 8 Friday, 6th February 1998
2 (9.15 am)
3 (The witness entered court)
4 JUDGE CASSESE: Good morning. I would like
5 the Registrar to call out the case number, please.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Case number IT-95-13a-T, the
7 Prosecutor versus Slavko Dokmanovic.
8 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. And the
9 appearances?
10 MR. NIEMANN: If your Honour pleases, my name
11 is Niemann and I appear with my colleague Mr. Williamson
12 and Mr. Vos for the Prosecution.
13 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.
14 MR. FILA: Your Honours, my name is Toma Fila
15 and I appear with Ms. Lopicic and Mr. Petrovic as the
16 Defence for Mr. Dokmanovic.
17 JUDGE CASSESE: Mr. Dokmanovic, can you hear
18 me? Thank you.
19 All right. I understand you have called
20 a witness.
21 MR. WILLIAMSON: Yes, your Honour, just
22 a brief preliminary matter before that.
23 We have completed the preliminary list of
24 witnesses that we intend to call for next week, and we
25 have also included the statement of a witness Dzuka
1 Radici which was the only statement, I believe, which
2 your Honours had not received previously in relation to
3 witnesses to be called next week. I have already
4 provided copies of both of these documents to the
5 Defence, and in the course of the morning I will be
6 providing a Croatian translation of this statement to
7 the Defence as well. But at this time I can give these
8 to the usher and they can be presented to your Honours.
9 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.
10 Are you going to call only seven witnesses?
11 MR. WILLIAMSON: Your Honour, it appears at
12 this time that that is all that we are going to have
13 available. We are still in the process of working on
14 this issue, but there may be one additional witness
15 other than that, but right now I believe that is all
16 that we have, and we would then be prepared when we
17 return in March to present all of the evidence in
18 regard to the exhumation and a couple of other
19 witnesses. And that should be the end of our case.
20 JUDGE CASSESE: So you think we can finish in
21 March?
22 MR. WILLIAMSON: With the Prosecution case,
23 yes, sir.
24 JUDGE CASSESE: Good. Now, as you know, in
25 March, we only have, I think, five days.
1 MR. WILLIAMSON: Yes, sir. There will be
2 relatively few witnesses in March, although the
3 witnesses that will be testifying, I think, some of
4 their testimony will be fairly lengthy because it deals
5 with some technical issues and again the results of the
6 exhumation, but it is our belief that we should be able
7 to finish our case in March.
8 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. And when do you
9 think you may be able to interview the 45 defence
10 witnesses in Belgrade? Remember, we agreed that you
11 would try to interview them.
12 MR. WILLIAMSON: Yes, sir. It would be our
13 intention to do that in the break between the
14 February and March sessions, so we should be in
15 a position in March to notify the court and the Defence
16 of which witnesses upon which we have reached
17 agreement.
18 JUDGE CASSESE: Excellent. So in theory, in
19 April, we could start with the Defence witnesses. Yes?
20 Good. Thank you.
21 MR. FILA: Your Honour, if I may be of
22 assistance, the Defence will not have a single question
23 for any of the witnesses we are hearing today, but
24 I would like you to convey on behalf of the Defence our
25 condolences for their losses in this unfortunate war.
1 Regarding the Ovcara questions, the Defence
2 is not denying at all the findings there and that those
3 people were killed at Ovcara. I said yesterday too, and
4 last time, that I am not disputing that there was an
5 armed conflict. What I am disputing is an international
6 armed conflict. I am not disputing that there were 200
7 bodies found. I am just trying to establish which
8 bodies they were. Therefore, things will proceed very
9 expeditiously as far as I am concerned.
10 And a last point, I should like to make;
11 I have agreed with the Prosecution, in yesterday's
12 statement of Mr. Cakalic it is stated that he was shown
13 a photograph of the accused, Dokmanovic, wearing
14 a camouflage uniform. Through the kindness of the
15 Prosecution I will be shown the photographs. I wish to
16 draw the attention of the court to the fact that those
17 photographs need to be seen for us to establish whether
18 that was an uniform or the kind of clothing that
19 I showed you here at a closed session, if you recall,
20 that we had once.
21 That is all I had to say and I will be of no
22 further bother to the court until the end of today's
23 hearing.
24 JUDGE CASSESE: You do not bother the court,
25 you help the court, of course.
1 MR. WILLIAMSON: Your Honour, if I could point
2 out one other small factor in relation to the witness
3 list that I have provided, the last witness that is
4 indicated on that list, Mr. Peter Kiper is a Czech
5 diplomat who was an ECMM monitor at the time of the
6 conflict in Yugoslavia. He will be testifying on
7 Wednesday, 11th, and he has requested to be able to
8 testify in the Czech language so we have made
9 arrangements for interpreters who are having to be
10 brought from another country so we had to specify an
11 exact date on which he would testify and we have stated
12 that for the 11th, so if we finish with the other
13 witnesses prior to that, it still would be necessary to
14 reconvene on the 11th to hear his testimony.
15 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes.
16 MR. WILLIAMSON: If your Honours please, I can
17 proceed with the witness at this time.
18 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes please.
19 MR. WILLIAMSON: Could you state your name for
20 the record, please?
21 I am sorry, I do not believe the witness has
22 made the solemn declaration.
23 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes. May I ask the witness to
24 make the solemn declaration?
25 VEBER, LEOPOLD VLADIMIR (sworn)
1 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. You may be seated.
2 Examined by MR. WILLIAMSON
3 Q. Sir, could you state your name for the
4 record, please?
5 A. My name is Veber, Leopold Vladimir.
6 Q. And, sir, where are you from originally?
7 A. I was born in Vukovar.
8 Q. How long has your family been in Vukovar?
9 A. My family has been in Vukovar to the best of
10 my knowledge since the days of my father. My father was
11 born in 1915, and according to the book of births, my
12 grandfather, Anton, was also born in Vukovar, so that
13 is all I know. I do not know exactly what year my
14 grandfather was born in but both my grandfather and my
15 father were born in Vukovar.
16 Q. And until 1991 was your whole life spent in
17 Vukovar?
18 A. Yes. I spent my entire life in Vukovar.
19 I completed my apprenticeship there in 1958. I am
20 a hairdresser, so that is also where I finished
21 elementary school and this secondary school for
22 hairdressing and then I worked in Bor for some time,
23 for some years, that is a hairdressing salon, and in
24 1964 I went to Vukovar and I opened a hairdressing
25 salon for women, one of my own, and I worked there
1 until 1985, until 31st December 1985. Then I re-trained
2 to do something else. I closed down the shop for
3 justified reasons, and I passed the necessary exams in
4 order to be in charge of central heating because in the
5 town of Vukovar a home for the elderly was opened. At
6 that time it was called, "the home of veterans and
7 retirees". They needed a person who would be in charge
8 of central heating.
9 I got this job, so in 1986, on 1st October,
10 I got this job and until the outbreak of the war
11 I worked in that home for retired persons.
12 Q. How many children did you have?
13 A. I had two children. I had a daughter who was
14 born in 1967 and a son who was killed during the war.
15 He was born in 1969. I only had the two of them.
16 Q. And what was your son's name?
17 A. My son's name was Veber, Sinisa. He was born
18 on 22nd February 1969.
19 Q. Did your son Sinisa attend school in Vukovar?
20 A. Yes. My son completed elementary school in
21 Vukovar, and then he enrolled in secondary school, and
22 he completed it, thus becoming I would call a "tjrol"
23 technician at Pik, Vukovar. He finished his
24 apprenticeship but he did not get a job because he went
25 to the army and then he came back from the army, he did
1 not have a job, so he went to Verona, to Italy to work
2 for a spell with someone from Borovo, a painter, an
3 artist. He was selling paintings there, so he worked
4 there for about two months, and then he came back for
5 some kind of vacation, just before the war broke out,
6 and he sent another colleague to go there and he said
7 that he would be coming back to continue, but then he
8 did not. He stayed on in Vukovar.
9 Q. As your son was growing up and as a young
10 man, was he involved in any kind of sports activities?
11 A. Sinisa was involved in sports. He rowed, and
12 I cannot tell you exactly what year he started to row.
13 I do not know exactly. When he was very young, and he
14 rowed in the Vukovar club. Their young team achieved
15 some very good results. He rowed in eight- and
16 four-member teams. These young people were so good, and
17 they were even better than their older fellow
18 sportsmen, and at a championship that was held in
19 Vukovar the president of the club said that that had
20 never happened before, that such a young team of rowers
21 would win the title even before the championship
22 actually began. They were better than the older team.
23 So, the ex-champions from Zadar were
24 defeated, so the Vukovar club became the champions.
25 I know that this man said -- the diploma went into the
1 hands of the sweet ones from the salty ones, you see.
2 They lived on the banks of the River Danube and Zadar
3 is on the banks of the Adriatic coast by the sea.
4 So, before the war, before the army, he
5 actually went to the army in 1978. He went to the army
6 in 1978, and before that --
7 Q. I am sorry, if I can interrupt you for
8 a moment, are you saying he went to the army in 1978?
9 Is that correct?
10 A. Oh, 1988. 1988. Oh, you see... 1989, yes,
11 yes. I got carried away. In 1989, in February 1989 he
12 came back from the army, that is to say that he went to
13 the army in 1988. That is to say that he had won all
14 those medals before the war, before he went to the
15 army. So six years before that they were the champions
16 of then Yugoslavia, of the entire country.
17 They were the only team consisting of eight
18 young men to have won the title in that way. All eight
19 of them belonged to the same club and they were
20 champions, and also for three times they won the
21 European championship, that is to say that twice they
22 defended their European championship title.
23 MR. WILLIAMSON: Mr. Veber, if I can stop you
24 at that point, I would like at this point to show you
25 a photograph and if you can tell me who is portrayed in
1 this photograph, please, and we will mark this as
2 Prosecutor's exhibit...
3 THE REGISTRAR: 59.
4 MR. WILLIAMSON: 59. Can you tell the court
5 who is depicted in that photograph?
6 A. That is my son.
7 MR. WILLIAMSON: At this point I would like to
8 tender this as Prosecutor's Exhibit 59.
9 A. I cannot understand you.
10 Q. That is all right. It was not a question for
11 you.
12 In 1991 did your son suggest to you that
13 maybe you should leave Vukovar?
14 A. Yes. My son suggested that his mother and
15 I and sister leave Vukovar, because I worked in this
16 home for the elderly. From May 1st I was mobilised
17 with the civilian defence, and I was supposed to stay
18 at that home only during the night, because most of the
19 other staff members were women and they were afraid to
20 be on their own so I could not leave the place because
21 of that. They told me that I could even spend the night
22 there, that I would be paid a special bonus because
23 a nurse would be there on night duty and she would --
24 she was afraid of being on her own and she did not feel
25 safe, so...
1 Q. Did Sinisa also stay in Vukovar?
2 A. Yes. Yes. Sinisa also stayed in Vukovar.
3 Q. Did he join in the defence of the city?
4 A. He joined the defence of the city. Also
5 through these local communes, as the place was
6 organised then, and they were all supposed to go on
7 duty, as it was called then, so he stayed on in our
8 local community which was called Vladimir Nazor.
9 Q. And do you have any idea what his
10 responsibilities were with the defence of the city?
11 A. His duties? I do not know exactly what he
12 was. I do not know but it was like I know that he had
13 night duty, and that he would come back. Since I was at
14 this other place we would see each other from time to
15 time. I do not know. Until August.
16 Q. What was the condition of the home for the
17 elderly where you were working during the course of the
18 battle?
19 A. The conditions there were very difficult
20 because there were quite a few people there who were
21 immobile, who were handicapped, and there were about
22 120 people staying there. The situation was such that
23 there was hardly any electric supply because of the
24 shelling of Vukovar and there was no water. The home
25 was shot at quite a lot and we were among the first to
1 have casualties among these old people who were
2 incapable of going downstairs. There was not a proper
3 shelter there, though.
4 I do not know what kind of arms these were,
5 were they launchers or mortars or cannons, but it was
6 a new building and everything was bursting all over the
7 place. There was no heating, and when this first attack
8 occurred, we had two or three dead and seven or eight
9 wounded people, and Radio Vukovar had broadcast that,
10 that the home for the elderly was shelled, and that
11 there were casualties there.
12 Q. Mr. Veber, was the home for the elderly used
13 for any kind of military purposes?
14 A. No. The home for the elderly was such that
15 there were only civilian people there when we did not
16 have any water, then they would come and bring us water
17 because these people did not have any drinking water,
18 and I had a boiler room downstairs for heating where
19 there were about 3,000 litres for heating, so I opened
20 that, so that we could use this water for washing our
21 faces and we used it for the toilet, so that is it.
22 So, the army would only come after the
23 shelling. They would come very quickly to give aid to
24 the wounded and take them to the hospital.
25 Q. Mr. Veber, where was your house located in
1 Vukovar? Which section of the city?
2 A. My house was near the water tower, near, in
3 Slavija, a mill. It was the first electric mill after
4 the Second World War. I do not know. It is about
5 500 metres away from the water tower. That is to say,
6 close to Mitnica.
7 Q. Now, at some point in time as the battle was
8 coming to a close did you leave your home and go
9 somewhere else?
10 A. We did not leave our home because I was up
11 there all the time, and my mother and my aunt and some
12 other neighbours who were elderly, since we had a good
13 basement, stayed at home quite a lot. I do not know,
14 until...
15 Q. I am sorry, I was talking about near the end
16 of the battle. At some point in time did you, in fact,
17 leave and move to someplace else?
18 A. Yes. We left the house. I was up there at
19 Mitnica and my family was taken to the shelter. My
20 mother and my sister had to -- to the centre of town
21 near the bus station, there is a shelter there, and
22 that is where they were until the very fall of Vukovar
23 and I was at Mitnica, together with a few of these
24 women because before this shelling we managed to
25 evacuate half of these people who were badly wounded
1 and who were mobile anyway and we were supposed to
2 evacuate the remaining 60 persons too but it was not
3 safe any longer so I had to stay until the very end,
4 together with these old people up there in this home
5 for retirees.
6 Q. And at the end where did you go?
7 A. In the end my Sinisa was at the hospital
8 because he was wounded, and before that he was not even
9 wounded and he was in the centre of town and he went up
10 there to see me and we went to Olajnica and we spent
11 a few days there. We were there a few days before
12 Vukovar fell. He was wounded then. He was in hospital
13 because he had a concussion, and he was not wounded by
14 the actual bullet, but from the pebbles and rocks that
15 hit him as a result of this shell that had fallen. He
16 could not hear very well and in the hospital when he
17 heard about this evacuation he came to pick me up. It
18 was a Sunday. It was the 17th -- between the 17th and
19 the 18th, so it was already around 12.30, the beginning
20 of the 18th, Monday. I know that it was raining, and we
21 went to the hospital. That is where we were.
22 Q. And how were you accommodated at the
23 hospital? Where did you stay there?
24 A. When we came there we entered the hallway. It
25 is a big hallway and there were a lot of civilians
1 there. We were in a hallway first and then we went to
2 this other place where these other people were, and we
3 found ourselves a small space there and that is where
4 we sat until the morning. The next day we walked around
5 a bit.
6 This was the 19th by then, yes, yes, it was
7 the 19th because Monday was the 18th. So I was there.
8 I did not leave that place. This is the very entrance
9 to the hospital. I mean, not into the compound, the
10 yard, but into the building itself. Upstairs the
11 shelling had damaged the building quite a bit but
12 downstairs it was all right.
13 Q. And was Sinisa staying with you in the same
14 place in the hospital?
15 A. Sinisa was there with the other wounded. He
16 came to see us a couple of times to see how we were. It
17 was a short period of time. It was Monday, and then
18 Tuesday I was with him at 12.30. I saw him. We kissed
19 each other, and they had already started leaving that
20 day. It was Tuesday, and he said, "see you in Zagreb",
21 and I said, "are you coming with us?", and he said,
22 "no, I have my own company here and I was staying with
23 them here so I will stay on with them", so my wife was
24 there too, and she said, "I was with Sinisa now", and
25 I said, "I saw him at 12.30", so I was with him at
1 12.30. My wife saw him about an hour and a half later,
2 and after that the room was emptied. These buses came
3 that took them to Velepromet.
4 I was among the last, perhaps, to leave. My
5 wife and I, that is, and they returned us a few times.
6 The army was all around, tanks were there, they were
7 saying, "you are going", "you are not going". All the
8 buses had left, and I cannot tell exactly how many of
9 us stayed on, not too many, about 20, all of us
10 civilians.
11 Then they say, "you are leaving". So then we
12 got out and some kind of a military truck came, not the
13 big one, a wide one. I do not know what it is called.
14 I cannot remember the vehicle, but I just know it was
15 a military vehicle, grey, olive green, and a soldier
16 gave us some hot tea, a piece of bread, and a can, and
17 we took it with us. We entered the vehicle, and we went
18 up there towards the military barracks. We reached the
19 barracks before dark. I was not looking at my watch.
20 I did not know what time it was, so we were in front of
21 Velepromet for some time, and it was getting dark and
22 then they turned the war lights on, you know, the
23 lights on the car that are not really glaring lights,
24 but the ones they put down, so we got out, and they put
25 us someplace on the right-hand side. We were waiting
1 there, I do not know how long, but quite long, and we
2 waited.
3 Q. And this was on the 19th that you were taken
4 from the hospital to Velepromet. Is that correct?
5 A. Yes. On the 19th.
6 Q. And your son Sinisa remained at the hospital
7 at that time. Is that correct?
8 A. Sinisa stayed at the hospital, yes.
9 Q. And so this was the last time that you had
10 seen him, was this occasion at 12.30. Is that correct?
11 A. That was the last time I saw him, yes, the
12 last time I saw him.
13 Q. And what did he have with him at that time?
14 A. Sinisa had a small bag and in it he had his
15 passport, he had those medals that he had won, his
16 rowing medals, exactly 38 medals. Obviously he was so
17 pleased that he took them along with him. He also had
18 some underwear, and I do not know what else. Some very
19 small things. It was a very light bag.
20 Q. Now, how long were you held at Velepromet?
21 A. In Velepromet that evening when we arrived we
22 stayed there for quite a long time. It was night-time,
23 and it gets dark early and I was not really looking at
24 my watch, and I just know when we came we were told to
25 stand there, not to go anywhere. This was in the yard,
1 two APCs got in. They had their lights on. They turned
2 around, towards the exit of Velepromet. They turned on
3 these lights and they were actually lighting the exit.
4 I do not know those people. I do not know who those
5 people were, if you were to ask me now I have no idea.
6 I stayed there because a captain told me that I should
7 not move and I was standing there, and a bus was
8 supposed to come and -- in front of these APCs, and it
9 stood there.
10 Boys were passing by, men, two by two in
11 pairs, their hands were tied to one another, and they
12 were boarding the bus and when the bus was full then it
13 left Velepromet and went out to the main road. Then
14 another bus came and I cannot say exactly when, but
15 I think there were eight buses for sure, perhaps even
16 more than that.
17 Q. Mr. Veber, if I can stop you right there, what
18 was going on at Velepromet on the day of the 20th, if
19 you recall?
20 A. On the 20th I remember exactly. It was
21 a Wednesday. My wife and I and the rest of us who had
22 spent the night in the carpenter's shop there, someone
23 said to us, I do not know what rank he had, he was
24 a reservist, to go out. And we stood there, and my
25 wife, because my mother, sister and daughter were also
1 in Velepromet and they were in a bus that was about to
2 leave, and then my wife went over to give them some
3 addresses. At that moment, when she left, I stayed
4 behind alone. Somebody I had never seen before came up
5 to me wearing an olive green uniform, asking, "who is
6 Vader Veber", and I said, "I am", and he said, "come
7 here". So I asked someone next to me to look over this
8 little bag. We also had a few of our personal things,
9 underwear and that sort of thing in it. Then he said,
10 "Well, come here", and he started pushing me. Then
11 I was going back again to this carpenter shop.
12 It was not a big hall, it was a place where
13 the woodworking was done. Then there were three
14 persons, also people I did not know. One of them was
15 very tall and strong, and he said, "give me that MUP
16 number". I was never in MUP. When I got in I had to
17 spread out my arms and my legs. I had a winter
18 wind breaker on me. He took it off. He threw it away, to
19 the side. He searched me in case I had any weapons. He
20 did not find anything. He opened the door, and he
21 shoved me inside. There was a room to the left, and
22 another one to the right. I entered the one in the
23 middle. That morning I was in the right one, and then
24 he moved me to the left one, so I fell over some other
25 people. I saw the faces, they were all scared.
1 I recognised quite a number of people. We kept quiet.
2 We stayed there from Tuesday, that was -- you said the
3 20th -- no, no, that was Wednesday, was it not? The
4 20th was a Wednesday. And I stayed there until the
5 21st, the Thursday, in the evening, about 9.30.
6 Q. And, Mr. Veber, on the 21st, did you have
7 a chance to meet up with some other people who
8 indicated to you that they had come from Ovcara?
9 A. Not there but in Mitrovica, when we were in
10 Mitrovica, two persons, and another one later on, that
11 we happened to get together. Actually they were in
12 Velepromet as well, and they told me that my son had
13 ended up in Ovcara. Actually, that they had seen my son
14 in Ovcara, so I asked how did they know, and then they
15 said that somebody had taken them out of there, they
16 had known my son and they had seen him there.
17 Q. Now, you said that you were in Mitrovica.
18 When did you go to Mitrovica? What was the date, if you
19 recall?
20 A. That evening, Thursday evening, I knew the
21 ranks well. I do not know the new ones. He was captain,
22 first class. He came in. There were just a few of us
23 left inside in this kind of -- probably a small
24 warehouse, storage room, and he came in, and he said,
25 "come on quickly if, we manage to save you". There was
1 a bus outside, and he could not get it started, so he
2 asked us to push it. I was just wearing my jogging suit
3 and he said, "Well, have you not got anything else?",
4 and I said, "no"; "Well, how could you have come just
5 wearing that", and then I told him that someone had
6 taken it off me and thrown it away. Then he found
7 a pullover for me. He gave it to me, I put it on, on top
8 of my jogging suit, because it was rather cold. I was
9 shivering. There was no heating, so we went out into
10 the yard. There was a drizzle. This was Thursday
11 evening, 21st, or was it the 22nd? No, the 21st, no,
12 the 21st in the evening, a Thursday.
13 So we pushed this bus, it got started. We
14 jumped onto it quickly, the driver and this captain,
15 and they transported us from Velepromet. They did not
16 even switch on the lights. This was during the night,
17 and they took us to the Vukovar barracks where we got
18 out, and again, after those two days, they gave us --
19 we were thirsty, they gave us water and we were hungry.
20 We were given another can of food and half a loaf of
21 bread they gave us. So we ate that, we drank some
22 water. We were given a packet of cigarettes each for
23 two days we did not have any, and then they listed us,
24 and on Friday, so that means the 22nd in the morning,
25 they transferred us to Mitrovica which means that on
1 Friday 22nd I was in Mitrovica. Not just me, but
2 a busload of us. More than 30. We could not count, but
3 there were more than 30 people inside. I know there are
4 that many seats.
5 Q. And where were you taken in Mitrovica?
6 A. I was not familiar with Mitrovica. They said
7 we were at the -- at the prison and we were in the bus
8 outside. We were not allowed to go out and we waited.
9 We did not know what we were waiting for, but they said
10 they had to wait for the interrogation that we would be
11 interviewed, and then released home.
12 I cannot remember what time it was. I know
13 that some people were passing by. They were spitting at
14 the windows, saying, "those are Ustashas inside". Then
15 one of the officers inside told us not to react, just
16 to bend our heads and not to get upset about it. Then
17 we went inside the bus. All of us got off. There was
18 a large yard with high walls. We were lined up there
19 against the wall with our hands up, facing the wall,
20 and we heard someone behind us, "target -- aim", and
21 then I wondered why had they brought us all this way
22 and wasted so much fuel?
23 There were two buses and there were two APCs
24 escorting us, probably to protect us, one in front of
25 the bus and one behind us, when we were being taken
1 from Vukovar to Mitrovica, and there we were standing
2 facing the wall, hearing this order, "aim", and we were
3 waiting for them to fire. However, no one did. One of
4 ours turned around, and somebody hit him on the head
5 saying, "what are you turning around for?", but he
6 wanted to see whether they were going to fire or not.
7 So we stood there. Nobody fired, then we
8 turned around, and I saw that there were quite a number
9 of them. I do not know how many, but they no longer had
10 olive green uniforms, but the blue police uniforms, the
11 uniform of the policemen in the former Yugoslavia was.
12 We used to call them, "the blue ones".
13 Then we were passing from that yard into
14 another. They were standing on both sides. We passed
15 between them, they hit us with the batons, some people
16 on the head, some people on the stomach. We had to run
17 through. It depended how quickly one passed to avoid
18 the blows. And then we entered a hall, a sports hall
19 like a gym. We had a take all our clothes off,
20 absolutely, we had to strip, they examined us to make
21 sure, whether we had any weapons or I do not know what
22 else, then we put back on our clothes again, then we
23 went out.
24 We all had to lie down, and we lay there.
25 I do not know for how long.
1 Q. Mr. Veber, if I could stop you now, where is
2 Sremska Mitrovica located?
3 A. Sremska Mitrovica is when you are going from
4 Vukovar, you would go to Sid, as far as I remember you
5 follow the highway and then you turn to the right.
6 Q. It is in the Republic of Serbia, is it not?
7 A. Yes, yes, it is. It is situated in the
8 Republic of Serbia, yes, because Sid, too was all part
9 of Serbia. In fact, I think they had the same licence
10 plates.
11 Q. Now, you indicated that you met up with some
12 of the people that had been at Ovcara. This was in
13 Sremska Mitrovica; correct?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Approximately how many people from Vukovar,
16 to your knowledge, were held at this prison in Sremska
17 Mitrovica?
18 A. There were many people. For a long time we
19 did not know how many there were until a list was made
20 at the International Red Cross that was visiting, gave
21 us some of these lists and according to those lists, we
22 learned that more than 1,000, I think it was 1,200
23 people were there in Mitrovica.
24 Q. And were these people civilians, soldiers or
25 a mixture?
1 A. You see, they were all in civilian clothes,
2 the people I saw, with the exception of a couple of
3 them who had stayed behind wearing a police uniform.
4 A couple of them that I knew I saw in the cell that
5 I was in.
6 Q. And was Mr. Cakalic also held in this prison
7 with you?
8 A. Yes. I cannot say for sure. I arrived on the
9 22nd. That morning when I arrived they brought I do not
10 know how many more people, and among them was Cakalic.
11 I remember that. Drago Berghofer on that same day, that
12 must have been, I suppose, 21st, the Wednesday.
13 And I remember also Ljubo Vagar.
14 Q. That is all right, Mr. Veber.
15 Was there one occasion when Mr. Cakalic
16 assisted you and you felt like, in effect, he had saved
17 your life when you were at this prison?
18 A. Yes. As he was taken out of Vukovar at the
19 same time as me, he also was taken to the barracks. We
20 were transported together to Sremska Mitrovica. He was
21 also badly beaten, like me, only they had a little more
22 clothing, so the blows did not hurt them so badly,
23 because after all those beatings, I did not tell you
24 everything that the blue ones did to us. It was dark
25 already, and we were so exhausted that we could no
1 longer stand, and they told us to go to what we learned
2 was the third pavilion in Mitrovica, so I went.
3 I was the first or the second, I cannot
4 remember, among the first, and Cakalic was behind me.
5 We reached the second floor. I remember that. I entered
6 this corridor, and then I felt something bursting in my
7 head, so then after that I do not know what happened,
8 but I know that when I came to I was lying on my back
9 looking up and I saw faces looking at me, saying, "he
10 has come to. He is better". So they gave me water, they
11 lifted me up. I recognised one of them. I thought his
12 name was Bozo but it is not, it is Ante. He used to
13 work in Pik.
14 I saw him, so I even thought that he belonged
15 to their army. I did not know where I was because I was
16 surrounded and they were looking at me, and I said,
17 "Bozo, what have I done to anyone to be beaten like
18 this?", and he said, "now calm down. It will be all
19 right", and then when I calmed down a bit I said,
20 "where am I?", and he said, "Well, you know where you
21 are, here we are", but I was rather lost and then
22 I realised that those were my people from Vukovar
23 because some people were already there before we
24 arrived.
25 Half the bus came to this particular room.
1 Others were distributed to other rooms, and then I saw
2 that Emil was there, Ljubo Vagar in that cell -- one
3 could call it a cell, probably, what else -- then they
4 lifted me up. I could not stand because I had been
5 kicked in the backbone and in the neck. My nose was
6 broken, some people did not even recognise me, people
7 who knew me well, so they took me to wash up a bit.
8 Then Drago Berghofer came up to me and they did
9 everything to revive me, and they told me that they had
10 seen my son at Ovcara.
11 Q. Did you have any other discussions with them,
12 with Mr. Berghofer, Mr. Cakalic about what had gone on at
13 Ovcara?
14 A. We talked a little. They did not know much,
15 or they did not want to tell me. I do not know. Judging
16 by what Emil said, and Drago Berghofer who had been
17 there, I saw that something was wrong. However, someone
18 else, I do not know how he got there, he told me too
19 that he had been at Ovcara. He comes from Sotin. That
20 somebody he knew and who was wearing the other side's
21 uniform, they were distributing people into groups, and
22 he said that he was put in a group to wait. However,
23 I thought that that was not a good place to be, so
24 I moved to this other group, and then again he saw me
25 in this other group and he ordered me to go back, and
1 this happened three times.
2 He tried a fourth time to move to this other
3 group and he stayed alive. He does not know what
4 happened to those others in the other group. So how he
5 got out with some civilians, or whether somebody had
6 saved him, I do not know.
7 Q. Now, at some point in time you were
8 eventually released from the prison in Sremska
9 Mitrovica, were you not?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. When did that occur?
12 A. It occurred on the 27th March 1992.
13 27th March 1992.
14 Q. During the time that you were held in
15 Mitrovica were you ever charged with any crimes or told
16 that you were being held because of the commission of
17 crimes?
18 A. I was asked how many people I had killed, but
19 I was not charged with any offence. No. I was not
20 charged at all.
21 Q. And when you eventually left in March, where
22 did you go at that time? Back to Croatia?
23 A. Yes. I went to Croatia. We went to Zagreb in
24 the Vinko Bek hall. We saw the situation was very bad
25 there. They took us around the hospitals to examine us.
1 They established the injuries we had, so I was sent to
2 a couple of places because I had several blows on my
3 head. My spine had been injured, my shoulder too had
4 suffered a lot of blows. I could not move my arm, so
5 that I was taken around by our people from one doctor
6 to another. I was still really lost, so I could not get
7 around on my own.
8 Q. Now, in February of 1997 did you get some new
9 information about Sinisa?
10 A. Yes. Ever since I left people were asking me
11 where Sinisa was, what happened to him. Some people
12 even said they had seen him in Sremska Mitrovica in
13 a bus, but they said they did not know which direction
14 he went, whether the bus went towards Aleksinac, or Nis
15 or Belgrade or Novi Sad, but apparently he was seen.
16 One person told me that, that this person had enquired
17 about my son. He came to visit me.
18 (10.15 am)
19 That was the first news I got, so I felt
20 consoled, "thank God, that he managed to survive
21 Ovcara", because he asked me what was the last I had
22 heard of my son and I said that he had been seen at
23 Ovcara and I did not know what had happened to him. So
24 when I got back from Mitrovica this person visited me
25 at Vinko Bek. Whether he wanted to console me or
1 something...
2 Thank you, I was told that he was seen in
3 Mitrovica so until last year I had hope that maybe he
4 was captured somewhere, that he is working somewhere,
5 because I heard from some other people that some people
6 had been taken to Aleksinac, several buses of them,
7 that only a couple of buses had gone to Nis, that they
8 had selected the stronger ones and as he was strong, he
9 was 1 metre 92 centimetres tall. You see? You can see
10 how well-built he was, so I thought perhaps he was
11 taken to the mine to work as a miner so I would prefer
12 if he had been captured and he was working there, then
13 if they kill him like that for nothing.
14 So, until last year I had a shred of hope
15 that he was alive.
16 I gave his particulars to the International
17 Red Cross, the national Red Cross, the descriptions,
18 everything I knew concerning him. I went to enquire and
19 they said, "as soon as we learn anything we will let
20 you know",.
21 I was notified last year in February,
22 I cannot remember exactly the date, I think it was
23 mid-February, when they exhumed the 200 bodies at
24 Ovcara, as I had given a description, and on the basis
25 of that description they saw it was Sinisa. First they
1 notified me when I should report to the hospital.
2 I cannot remember the name of the hospital. Salata, at
3 Salata, at such and such an hour -- as my daughter was
4 in Austria I informed her immediately so that my
5 daughter and son-in-law came and my wife was with them
6 because I had a little granddaughter, she was looking
7 after her, and they came for the identification.
8 When we got to Salata they took us to the
9 room upstairs where the doctors, specialists for these
10 things were. We were introduced and then according to
11 our statements they asked us whether we accept or we do
12 not accept.
13 Then they showed us photographs for, after
14 all, five years had gone by. So, you could only really
15 see the bones, and then they brought a piece of
16 pullover. It was greenish in colour. My wife noticed,
17 although it was faded in colour by then, she recognised
18 the pullover. That was one thing, and then the daughter
19 knew which teeth had fillings, which were missing, and
20 which had fillings, and the most important of all for
21 identification, I think that they said that he must
22 have been a very top quality athlete because of the
23 muscles which were so well-developed, and this was seen
24 from the bones, that only a really top-level sportsman
25 could have such a body.
1 What else? Oh yes. They asked us whether he
2 had been wounded. No, he had a surface injury here.
3 They were not real wounds that required any sewing up.
4 And on his legs he had suffered a blow. Then my
5 daughter remembered, "daddy, you know which leg that
6 was". He had a motorbike as a young boy and he fell,
7 and that was what they were able to notice on the
8 bones.
9 So there you are. We accepted that, and on
10 the 7th March last year, he was buried at Mirogoj in
11 Zagreb.
12 MR. WILLIAMSON: Thank you. I have no further
13 questions.
14 JUDGE CASSESE: No questions?
15 Mr. Veber, you heard before the kind words of
16 the Defence counsel, Mr. Fila, who wished to express his
17 human feelings of sorrow and regret for what happened
18 to your son, and convey to you his condolences.
19 Mr. Veber, the court is fully aware of the
20 appalling ordeal you went through. On behalf of my
21 colleagues and on my own behalf, I wish to express to
22 you our full understanding for your plight, and our
23 deep appreciation for your decision to come here to The
24 Hague to testify before the International Criminal
25 Tribunal. Thank you. Thank you so much.
1 Are there any objections to the witness being
2 released?
3 MR. WILLIAMSON: No objection, your Honour.
4 JUDGE CASSESE: You may now be released.
5 Thank you.
6 A. Thank you. Thank you.
7 (The witness withdrew)
8 MR. WAESPI: Good morning, your Honours. The
9 next witness will be Ljubica Dosen and she has not
10 requested any kind of protection.
11 (The witness entered court)
12 JUDGE CASSESE: Good morning. Could you
13 please make the formal declaration?
14 LJUBICA DOSEN (sworn)
15 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. You may be seated.
16 Examined by MR. WAESPI
17 MR. WAESPI: Your Honours, from this witness
18 we have an English version of the statement, and
19 I believe that you have not yet received it -- oh, you
20 have it. Oh, that is just perfect. Thank you very much.
21 Good morning, Ms. Dosen.
22 A. Good morning.
23 Q. Do you feel comfortable?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Were you interviewed by an investigator from
1 this Tribunal on 22nd August 1995, and did you sign
2 a document which was the English translation of that
3 interview?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. I will now show to you a document, and would
6 like to ask you whether that was this very document
7 which you have signed.
8 A. Yes. That is the document.
9 Q. Thank you very much. Do you see your
10 signature on that document?
11 A. Yes, I do.
12 MR. WAESPI: Thank you. Your Honours, I would
13 like to tender that as the next Prosecution exhibit.
14 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit number 60.
15 MR. WAESPI: Thank you. It should be -- we
16 have no Croatian version so far, and it should be under
17 seal.
18 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes. No objection?
19 MR. FILA: No, but there is
20 a misunderstanding. We got a translation into the
21 Croatian language from the Prosecution, so there is
22 a translation. Here it is.
23 MR. WAESPI: Perfect. Thank you very much.
24 I will enquire and we will then tender it as Exhibit A.
25 Thank you.
1 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you Mr. Fila.
2 MR. WAESPI: Were you again, Ms. Dosen,
3 interviewed by an investigator from this Tribunal on
4 17th March 1996, and did you again sign a document
5 which was the English translation of the second
6 interview?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. I would also like to show you this document.
9 I would like to ask you whether you again see your
10 signature on the bottom of that document, on the pages.
11 A. Yes.
12 MR. WAESPI: Thank you very much. I would
13 again like to tender that as the next Prosecution
14 exhibit.
15 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit number 61 under
16 seal.
17 MR. WAESPI: Yes, thank you, and I will look
18 for the Croatian version as well.
19 JUDGE CASSESE: Mr. Waespi, we have not
20 received this second document, the second interview
21 taken on the 17th March 1996.
22 MR. WAESPI: Okay. Thank you, your Honours.
23 JUDGE CASSESE: At least I cannot find it.
24 I have only one.
25 MR. WAESPI: It might be attached to it. The
1 first one has eight pages and then there is an
2 additional three pages, but I would have three copies
3 for you, your Honours, if you...
4 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.
5 MR. FILA: The Defence has not received it
6 either.
7 MR. WAESPI: I apologise, your Honours, for
8 this inconvenience, and to the Defence as well, my
9 apologies.
10 JUDGE CASSESE: Shall we give the Defence
11 a few minutes so that they can go through the -- all
12 right. Thank you. All right. So you may proceed.
13 MR. WAESPI: Thank you, your Honours.
14 Will you please state to the court your full
15 name?
16 A. Ljubica Dosen.
17 Q. And what is the place and date of your birth?
18 A. Luzani, Slavonski Brod, on 9th March 1949.
19 Q. What is your profession?
20 A. I am a skilled worker and I make rubber
21 footwear.
22 Q. Is it Vukovar your home town? Have you always
23 been living in Vukovar?
24 A. I came to Vukovar as a two-month baby.
25 Q. And you have most of your life been living in
1 Vukovar; is that correct?
2 A. All my life from then onwards. I lived in
3 Vukovar.
4 Q. Where did you live in summer 1991?
5 A. In Vukovar, in the street of Mose Pijade.
6 Q. Who did you live with?
7 A. With my husband, Martin Dosen and my
8 daughter, Tanja Dosen.
9 Q. What was the profession of your husband?
10 A. My husband is a fisherman, a private
11 fisherman.
12 Q. Was he involved in politics? Was he a party
13 member?
14 A. My husband was never involved in politics,
15 but he was a member of the HD.
16 Q. Was your husband also involved in the defence
17 of the town?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Can you tell us the reason why he was
20 involved?
21 A. He was involved in the defence of the town
22 because the shelling had already started then and he
23 simply wanted to protect his family.
24 Q. Was your house also destroyed by shelling?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Do you remember the date?
2 A. This was at the beginning, but it was not
3 fully destroyed. It had only been shelled, because we
4 were right next door to the theatre that was shelled
5 very quickly and destroyed.
6 Q. Was your husband wounded in the course of the
7 summer 1991?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Can you describe the events which led up to
10 those wounds?
11 A. My husband went to our then Territorial
12 Defence to see what would happen and how they should be
13 organised, and since those who were attacking us were
14 on the other side of the Danube, and they knew where
15 this was, and they shelled the Territorial Defence, and
16 as he came in front of the Territorial Defence
17 building, a shell fell and a fragment wounded his leg.
18 Q. Was he treated in hospital because of these
19 wounds?
20 A. Yes, he was. He stayed in the hospital and
21 then he was sent home for treatment because he did not
22 have to stay as an in-patient because it was only the
23 leg tissue that was wounded.
24 Q. Was he then again seriously wounded in
25 November 1991 when he fell from the third floor
1 balcony?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Was he then again hospitalised?
4 A. He was then. He stayed on in the hospital. He
5 did not come back home.
6 Q. When was that? -- excuse me, I withdraw that.
7 Did you and your daughter get the permission
8 to join your husband to go to the hospital?
9 A. Yes. Because my husband was immobile and he
10 expressed his wish to have us with him so that I could
11 help him because the staff was too busy with the other
12 wounded people.
13 Q. When did you join your husband? When did you
14 move yourself into the hospital?
15 A. My husband went to the hospital on November
16 16th, and we came between 17th and 18th to the
17 hospital. I mean my daughter and I.
18 Q. Do you recall how many nights you did spend
19 in the hospital alongside your husband?
20 A. Well, two nights, and another day before the
21 evacuation took place.
22 Q. So, you might have left the hospital either
23 on the 19th or the 20th November. Is that correct?
24 A. During the night of the 19th they came to the
25 hospital, and we were evacuated on the morning of the
1 20th.
2 Q. Can you describe to us very briefly in
3 general the overall situation in the hospital during
4 these three, four days you stayed in the hospital?
5 A. It was terrible for me. First of all, there
6 were very many wounded people, there was no water,
7 there was no food, there was not any medicine. The
8 shelling was very frequent. Civilians were coming in
9 because they had nowhere else to go, because of all the
10 shelling. You could feel blood everywhere. Doctor
11 Bosanac feared an epidemic. There were people who were
12 dying, they could not be buried because no one could go
13 out because of the shelling. All of these people,
14 really tormented. They did not have any cigarettes.
15 They were hungry. They got some kind of food aid
16 packages. They were hungry. They were exhausted. They
17 were in pain. It was awful.
18 Q. Were these civilians evacuated to Velepromet
19 at one point in time?
20 A. Yes, because very many civilians came from
21 basements, from shelters, from houses where they were,
22 because they knew that the convoy was coming and
23 everybody wanted to get out of that hell. So Dr. Bosanac
24 asked if they could be away from the wounded, if they
25 could stay at Velepromet because the convoy would come
1 there too, so it was mostly women and children who went
2 to Velepromet.
3 Q. Do you recall when these civilians were
4 evacuated, or rather transported to Velepromet?
5 A. This entire procedure started in the morning
6 and went on until late in the afternoon, and evening
7 between 18th and 19th. A day before the convoy came,
8 they had already reached Velepromet.
9 Q. Now, where did you spend the last night in
10 the hospital, the night before your evacuation?
11 A. I spent the last night by my husband's side,
12 because he asked for me to be with him during
13 evacuation because immobile, so that I could give him
14 water, whatever else he needed. So I slept by his feet
15 on his bed.
16 Q. What was the condition your husband was in
17 during that night?
18 A. It was awful. He was terribly afraid. He was
19 a sportsman and his work also kept him very active, and
20 he simply could not reconcile himself to immobility and
21 depending on someone else and he cried a lot. So he
22 always asked for me to be by him to give him something,
23 to bring him a bit of water, juice or something, but to
24 be next to him and to talk to him because he was
25 terribly frightened as to how he would live after that,
1 in that state, immobile, so I was with him during those
2 last days, all the time.
3 Q. Was there a medical record with him at that
4 time?
5 A. The morning before we were to be evacuated,
6 Nurse Biba gave every wounded person his medical
7 record, if they were to be transported further,
8 although we had all assumed that we were going to
9 Zagreb, especially the wounded who needed further
10 treatment and further care because our hospital was not
11 in a position to do so, so every patient, every wounded
12 person had his medical record with him so that his
13 treatment would be continued at another hospital. I do
14 not know where.
15 My husband was wounded so badly that he could
16 not hold these papers, this medical record, so it so
17 happened that I took this bag with his medical record
18 and I still have it with me.
19 Q. Do you have this record now, here in court?
20 A. Yes. I have it with me.
21 Q. Thank you. Did you later in 1992 ask two
22 doctors who have treated or had treated your husband in
23 Vukovar to confirm that medical record in two separate
24 letters?
25 A. Yes, I did. One of the doctors is Dr. Nejarvo
1 and the other is Dr. Aleksijevic, who in the hospital
2 treated my husband.
3 MR. WAESPI: I would now like, your Honours,
4 to show the witness a copy of the record she showed to
5 us in the days before today, and I would like to ask
6 her to tell us whether the copy we have is, in fact,
7 the copy of the original of hers.
8 The Defence is already in possession of this
9 record of both the Croatian original and the English
10 translation, and I have here again copies here of the
11 translation and the original for the judges.
12 JUDGE CASSESE: Mr. Waespi, are you tendering
13 these documents in evidence?
14 MR. WAESPI: Yes, I will.
15 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. There is no
16 objection.
17 MR. WAESPI: Now, Ms. Dosen, is that copy the
18 copy of the original you have with you today in court?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Thank you. Can you tell us briefly,
21 lead us through these pages of the document just
22 referring quickly, what do you see, what do you see
23 written on that document.
24 A. This is the medical record of my husband's
25 illness. It is a document that says his name and
1 surname, Dosen, Martin, born in 1952, residence,
2 Vukovar, Mose Pijade, sex, male. On 16th November 1991
3 he was admitted to the Vukovar medical centre.
4 Q. Thank you. Thank you very much. If you now
5 turn to the second page, and could tell us, not to read
6 everything, but just to tell us in your language what
7 we have.
8 A. On the second page there is an anamnaesis and
9 the medical findings of his wounds and the illness of
10 my husband. It is written in Latin. That is why I asked
11 Dr. Aleksijevic to translate this for me to know what it
12 says.
13 Q. Thank you very much. The third page --
14 A. The third page is a list of my husband's
15 temperature because it was taken every day. That is to
16 say that it is a very important document for me because
17 it says that on the 16th November, the 17th November,
18 and the 18th November, his temperature was taken. On
19 the 19th and 20th it was not. That is when they were
20 being prepared for evacuation. That document is
21 important for me, because it shows that my husband was
22 at the Vukovar hospital and he has never been seen
23 since.
24 Q. Thank you very much. If you could please keep
25 the next pages in your original, because they are
1 empty, they are only forms, and come to the two letters
2 we were referring to earlier. The first letter is
3 a letter by whom, Ms. Dosen?
4 A. The first letter is a certificate by Dr. Juraj
5 Njavro, a surgeon at the Vukovar hospital who treated
6 my husband's leg when he was first wounded and he
7 wrote:
8 "Dosen, Martin, hurt in August, wounded by
9 a grenade. His right leg was wounded. He was treated as
10 an out-patient. He regularly came for check-ups. The
11 certificate is being given at the request of his wife."
12 Q. Thank you very much. I think we can skip the
13 last letter because it confirms just what you have told
14 us; if you agree, Ms. Dosen?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Thank you very much. I am tendering that --
17 A. You are welcome.
18 Q. -- as the next Prosecution exhibit.
19 MR. WAESPI: THE REGISTRAR: That will be
20 Exhibit 62 and the English translation, 62A.
21 MR. WAESPI: Thank you very much.
22 Now, Ms. Dosen, were you told in the morning
23 of the 20th November that you would be evacuated?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Who told you so?
1 A. Well, that day in the morning a soldier in
2 uniform came. He looked special. We did not know who he
3 was then. At least on that occasion he was decent. He
4 said, "I am Major Sljivancanin. From now on I am in
5 command here. We are now going to read out a list of
6 names to you and please, as we call out your name, get
7 out of the hospital".
8 Q. Can you, briefly, describe to us the
9 appearance of the person you described as,
10 "Sljivancanin"?
11 A. I personally think I shall never forget him,
12 particularly because his looks were special. You rarely
13 see such people in our parts, because he is very tall
14 with a big black moustache. You would remember him
15 anyway, if you saw him, and he has a Montenegrin
16 accent.
17 Q. What happened next? Were you taken out of the
18 hospital?
19 A. Next to him were two other soldiers whom I do
20 not know, and in their hands they had a list, and they
21 were reading it out. It so happened that my husband,
22 Martin Dosen, was the first on the list and Tadija
23 Dosen, Ivan Dosen, Ivan Vulic and all of them, and
24 they were told to go out as their names were called
25 out. My husband was immobile so I stayed on waiting for
1 him to be transferred from his bed onto a stretcher.
2 So the wounded who could move were walking by
3 me as they were getting out. I still was not aware of
4 what was going on outside. Then two nurses came and
5 they were supposed to carry my husband. However, he was
6 a man who weighed 120 kilos and it was not all that
7 easy to carry him, so it was hard for them so Major
8 Sljivancanin ordered two soldiers to carry him out on
9 a stretcher. When they took him, my daughter and
10 I followed the stretcher and it is only then that
11 I went out in front of the hospital. To my left there
12 were other civilians, women, children, who were already
13 standing out there. I am sorry, on the right-hand side,
14 civilians were on the right-hand side, and at the
15 left-hand side we had to pass by two lines of soldiers
16 that were standing on the left- and the right-hand side
17 but then I realised that we were not moving towards the
18 main entrance, but that we were going behind the
19 hospital.
20 Q. I am sorry, Ms. Dosen, I have a little
21 problem with my earphones. I cannot really hear any
22 translation. (Pause). Let me just change the
23 earphones, maybe that helps. Do you hear me?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Thank you very much. Now it works again.
1 You are now out of the hospital in the yard
2 of the hospital, and were you then taken further after
3 we have seen these lines of soldiers?
4 A. Yes. Yes. We had to walk between the two
5 lines and we came to a road behind the Vukovar hospital
6 where four buses were parked, two civilian buses and
7 one military bus and behind it yet another civilian
8 bus. And I saw that my husband was being carried
9 precisely to this military bus which was very unusual
10 to me because if this was a convoy, and if we were all
11 supposed to be evacuated, then how come they were
12 taking him to the military bus? And there were armed
13 soldiers standing next to this bus, four of them
14 outside the bus and two inside.
15 This seemed a bit unusual to me, and not
16 a single wife or child were there. It was only myself
17 and my daughter Tanja who were there. They brought my
18 husband to the bus and they put him next to it because
19 he could not board the bus, because he was incapable of
20 sitting, and they could not carry the stretcher onto
21 the bus. I stood in front of the bus, I looked inside,
22 and then I saw that on that bus it was not two people
23 who were sitting next to each other, two by two, but
24 one by one. Then Ivan, my husband's younger brother and
25 Tadija, my husband's older brother, the young Kozul,
1 Sinisa Glavasevic, I know them all because we grew up
2 together, so I told my husband, "I do not understand
3 this. What is this?", and he said, "I do not understand
4 it too. Something strange is going on here".
5 Q. You said that you were now standing in front
6 of the military bus. Which bus in the line of these
7 buses you saw and you described was this bus? In what
8 position?
9 A. There were two buses, one next to another,
10 civilian, normal buses that used to drive us to work or
11 wherever people had to go, but I immediately noticed
12 and I shall never forget, the military bus because
13 I was wondering why a military bus. I turned to
14 a soldier, and I said, "young man, please. Where are
15 these buses going to?", because I saw that it was not
16 a convoy. The European Community was there. No one was
17 there. Only a bit further on Major Sljivancanin was
18 standing by the first bus and issuing orders who was
19 supposed to go where and who was supposed to sit where,
20 and I saw that something was wrong. And he said, "I am
21 sorry, but I really do not know. Ask someone else".
22 At that moment a soldier in uniform from the
23 bus, a reservist, got my younger brother-in-law out, my
24 husband's younger brother, and they pushed him so hard
25 towards the fence of the hospital and said that he
1 should get everything out of his pockets, whatever he
2 had, and he said, "you Ustasha, now we are going to
3 show you", and Martin was lying out there but was
4 looking at this other man with an automatic rifle, was
5 standing there pointing it at him. My daughter started
6 crying, my husband started crying, I did not know what
7 to do, and he said, "do something! Take my child away
8 from here!", and I said, "how do you think I am going
9 to do that? I have a Kalashnikov pointed at my back? How
10 do you think I am going to take her?", and he said,
11 "I do not know what you are going to do, but do
12 something. Take my chain off my neck and take my ring
13 and take off my watch and I promised my ring to my
14 son". I mean, it was awful. I can never forget that and
15 my child can never forget it.
16 I thought that it was all over, that they
17 would kill this youngest brother in front of us all
18 there on. On the other side they were bringing his
19 niece, Ruzica Markobasic, who was pregnant, five months
20 pregnant. They were also pulling her by her fur coat
21 and her handbag and they were throwing her things
22 around, and they were saying, "you whore, you Ustasha
23 whore, where are your pictures, where are your pictures
24 of your husband cutting off children's finger and
25 making necklaces out of them?". These are such banal
1 things. We did not kill anyone, let alone children.
2 On the contrary, we fed them and we gave them
3 food and my husband helped them. I had a restaurant of
4 my own. I gave them milk and food and oil and sugar and
5 if they were fair and honest. They should have said
6 that, that not a single Croat mistreated children there
7 or beat children there, least of all we, the women,
8 Croat women. On the contrary. In my building where
9 I lived, those who lived next door got wheat flour and
10 bread and yeast and everything from me, and my daughter
11 also baked sweets and she gave them to their children.
12 It is not that we would shut ourselves into the room
13 and not give them anything, and this was a very ugly
14 thing because we did not do that to them.
15 Q. Can you tell us, Ms. Dosen, what happened to
16 the woman you just described, Ruzica Markobasic? Was
17 she led into the bus eventually?
18 A. Yes. She was also brought there by a young
19 man. He is not from Vukovar, but I would recognise him.
20 And as they were getting onto the bus, he took my hand
21 and he squeezed my hand. I was wondering what it was.
22 Perhaps it was a message or something. He took her on
23 to the bus and automatically, I opened my hand and
24 there were 2,000 Yugoslav dinars in my hand and I said,
25 "sorry, young man, but what do I need this far?", and
1 he said, "madam, you might need this, but she certainly
2 will not any more".
3 MR. WAESPI: Thank you, Ms. Dosen. Maybe your
4 Honours, that is a convenient time for the break.
5 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes. So we stand in recess
6 for twenty minutes.
7 (11.05 am)
8 (A short break)
9 (11.30 am)
10 MR. WAESPI: Your Honour, I would like to show
11 the witness Prosecution exhibit number 43. That is
12 a still picture from the video about the patients in
13 the hospital we have seen the other day:
14 Can you please put it onto the ELMO?
15 Thank you. It is only one picture so I think
16 we can have the lights like this.
17 Ms. Dosen, do you know a person on this
18 picture?
19 A. Yes. I know him. This is my husband's nephew,
20 his sister's son Martin Jakubovski Dosen.
21 Q. Can you please describe him, what is he
22 wearing, what does he look like on this picture?
23 A. He is wearing hospital pyjamas, but as he was
24 wounded, he had a high fever, and he was always cold,
25 so I gave him this pullover that he is wearing. He was
1 wounded in the arm. He had a serious wound. His hand
2 was to be amputated but Dr. Aleksijevic did all he could
3 to save his hand, so that he used screws and surgery to
4 sew it on, and he had an injury of the pelvic bone.
5 Q. Thank you. Just for clarification, what is
6 the colour of the pullover you were just mentioning?
7 A. The pullover is pinkish. You can see that it
8 is a lady's pullover. It was mine, and I gave it to
9 him.
10 Q. So, it is the person on the right side you
11 were referring to.
12 A. Yes. This young man with a sling and his hand
13 in a sling.
14 Q. Perhaps you could point to him on the ELMO.
15 A. This is him. (Indicated).
16 Q. Yes. Thank you very much.
17 Ms. Dosen, did you see this person,
18 Mr. Jakubovski that morning, 20th November?
19 A. Yes. Exactly on this bench that he is sitting
20 on, we sat there together, gave him a cigarette,
21 because he also smoked, and when they started calling
22 out the names as he was a mobile patient he went out
23 before us. However, when I reached the bus, he was
24 still not there. He was held up somewhere.
25 In the meantime, while I was standing by the
1 bus, another soldier brought him. He stood in front of
2 the bus. He turned around towards me and Tanja, and he
3 said, "bye aunty, and you cousin, take care", and then
4 he boarded the bus.
5 Q. Have you ever seen this person again?
6 A. No. He was exhumed from Ovcara and buried in
7 Vinkovci. He was 21.
8 Q. Do you know a person called Darko Vuk?
9 A. Yes. I know him personally, because he was
10 a little older than Martin, but he was very bad. I do
11 not know what we did to him, for him to suddenly become
12 such a big Serb. I thought he was a friend, and I asked
13 him, "Darko, could you save any one of mine, my
14 family?", and he looked at me ironically and said, "you
15 Dosens have done a lot of harm so you just keep quiet".
16 Q. Can you describe his appearance that day?
17 What was he wearing?
18 A. He was wearing a camouflage uniform. He was
19 rather arrogant, he behaved like a great liberator.
20 I do not know who he was liberating me from. I thought
21 that if he was a man from Vukovar, a native of Vukovar,
22 I cannot accept that he was in jeopardy because he was
23 not, at least there was no threat from any one of us,
24 and he did not need to liberate me, but I thought that
25 the situation was such that it was not good for us
1 Croats, that the people around us were very arrogant,
2 they were celebrating.
3 There were some who carried Chetnik insignia.
4 They wore long beards. One of them was so brazen as to
5 lick a knife, threatening to slaughter Croats, that is
6 terrible, that is something I never thought would
7 happen. At least I did not expect it from people I grew
8 up with, I went to school with, with whom I went out,
9 that I went to weddings to, and that they should behave
10 in that way now was terrible. I do not know. I will
11 probably never forget that the same Darko would sit in
12 my restaurant on the Danube with my husband. He was
13 a friend of his, and that it should end up like this,
14 I do not know. I thought he would be a man and that he
15 would assist us, but he behaved as a great liberator
16 and he celebrated.
17 Q. If we may turn back to your husband, Martin,
18 you said that he was laying on his stretcher in front
19 of the bus. Did you have now a conversation with
20 Sljivancanin with regard to your husband?
21 A. Yes. Since my husband was fearful for our
22 daughter who was 14, the two of us were alone there and
23 he could not help us in any way, then he told me that
24 I should try and do something. So I realised that our
25 locals, the people of Vukovar could not help us so
1 I told my husband, "I am going to go to the major and
2 ask him what I and my daughter were doing there".
3 So I went up to him next to the other bus and
4 I said, "excuse me, may I ask you something?", and he
5 said, "yes, please". I said, "I do not understand what
6 I and my daughter are doing here. There is not a single
7 other woman or child", and he asked me, "are you
8 arrested?". I said, "no. I think it is a convoy that
9 is going to take me out of Vukovar somewhere", and he
10 said, "what are you doing here then?". I said, "I am
11 here because of my husband", and he said, "where is
12 your husband?", and I said, "there he is, next to the
13 bus", and he said, "who is he?", and I said, "he is
14 Martin Dosen"; "oh, Dosen. Why is he not in the bus?".
15 I said, "he cannot, because he is immobile. He is on
16 a stretcher and he cannot get into the bus with the
17 stretcher".
18 He looked at me, turned around and told two
19 soldiers to go back for Martin and to take him back
20 towards the hospital, and that we should follow. While
21 walking I asked him, "excuse me, but what shall I do
22 with my husband's things?", because I thought that
23 since he was in the hospital, he had a long, "dzeta",
24 so he could not wear anything except a pullover and
25 I thought he would be cold and if we get to Zagreb or
1 somewhere else, can I give him his clothes, a change of
2 clothes, and he had a bag with his things inside.
3 He looked at me and he said, "what does he
4 need that for?", so I was surprised. Because I wondered
5 what he was asking me and I said, "I beg your
6 pardon?". Probably he realised that he had indicated
7 that my husband would no longer need those things, and
8 then -- so he corrected himself and said, "who is going
9 to carry those things?". Then I said, "if there is no
10 one to carry them I will carry it", and then I pushed
11 my daughter in front of me and told her to go forward
12 because I just wanted to join the other women and
13 children, because my husband kept telling me that we
14 should always be where there are lots of other people,
15 where everyone is together, because he was afraid they
16 might kill us if we were alone, and he was especially
17 fearful for Tanja.
18 So, I headed towards the other women and
19 children to the left. However, they did not take Martin
20 back into the hospital, they left him there at the
21 entrance to the hospital because for the immobile
22 patients who were on stretchers who did not have a limb
23 or who were wounded so badly that they could not walk,
24 military trucks came to pick them up, and as far as
25 I was able to see, because I bent down and covered my
1 husband up with a blanket and I stroked his face, and
2 I told him, "take care", and we went off, and they were
3 then carried into those trucks.
4 Q. Just before you left, as you said, you left
5 your husband, did you ask Sljivancanin, where these
6 buses, the third one especially, the military bus you
7 referred to before was going to?
8 A. Yes. When we were talking about those things,
9 I myself reached the conclusion that some kind of
10 execution was pending, because especially that military
11 bus, I heard people saying that it was a bus for
12 liquidation, and then I asked the major, "please excuse
13 me, could you tell me where those buses are going?",
14 and he said, "which bus interests you?", and I said,
15 "my whole family is in the military bus so I am
16 interested in that particular bus", because I saw that
17 soldiers were standing around that bus watching over
18 it. He said, "that bus, that bus will not go far
19 because the people in that bus, darkness will swallow
20 them up in broad daylight".
21 Q. Have you ever seen one of the persons you saw
22 boarding that bus again?
23 A. I never saw any one of them again, though we
24 had all hoped and expected that perhaps they were in
25 captivity somewhere because we took with us in that
1 convoy only 74 wounded whom they wanted to take off at
2 Mitrovica. However, we women and children rebelled,
3 would not let them get off, so they went with us to
4 this infirmary where we spent the night and then they
5 drove us on in the morning.
6 But again, we did not want to move on until
7 the wounded joined us, because they told us we could
8 not go to Croatia, that Croatia does not want us, that
9 we would have to go through Orasje, that in Orasje the
10 bridge had been destroyed, that buses cannot go that
11 way. Then we women said, "never mind, we will carry
12 the wounded but we will not leave them there in the
13 infirmary", so we waited for another hour or two, and
14 then the wounded were brought into the convoy and they
15 were the only ones that we took with us from the
16 Vukovar hospital.
17 Q. I have only a few more questions. You just
18 said that you left with those wounded in a convoy. Do
19 you recall about the time this convoy left the Vukovar
20 hospital?
21 A. We thought that in the morning at 8 o'clock
22 we would be moving, as they had said. However, later
23 we realised that they had their own list on the basis
24 of which they took away the people, all the men and the
25 wounded from the hospital, because the European
1 Community representatives had still not arrived in the
2 hospital, and those wounded had not been registered.
3 The European Community people came only about 11, and
4 it was then that they started registering the other
5 wounded who were in the hospital and who were evacuated
6 with us so that we set off some time after 11. We
7 passed through the city centre because they told us
8 that we should go to Velepromet, and then from
9 Velepromet, through Bogdanovci to Vinkovci. That was
10 the agreement reached between Dr. Bosanac, the European
11 Community and the liberators.
12 However, when we reached Velepromet they told
13 us that we could not go through Bogdanovci because
14 apparently there were mines there and they could not be
15 held responsible for us, that Croatia did not want us,
16 but that they would take us through Negoslavci to
17 Mitrovica in Serbia.
18 Again, we reacted. We said that we had
19 nothing to do in Serbia, that we wanted to go to
20 Croatia where we belonged, to Zagreb, to any other
21 place, but that we did not want to go to Serbia.
22 However, they had their own plan. In my personal
23 opinion, we realised that they wanted these 74 wounded
24 as well, and that is why they took us to Mitrovica,
25 because most of our people ended up in Mitrovica, Nis,
1 and all over the place.
2 However, those four buses, not one of them
3 ever reappeared again. Only now at Ovcara have they
4 been found where that terrible massacre was carried
5 out, and this is disgraceful. I would forgive them,
6 perhaps, if my husband had taken up arms and if that
7 same Serb had a weapon and if they had shot at one
8 another, but to kill the wounded that cannot defend
9 themselves who have no arms, it is terrible. It is
10 a crime that has to be punished, and I appeal to you on
11 behalf of my husband, my mother, and the children, that
12 they be punished.
13 MR. WAESPI: Thank you very much, Ms. Dosen.
14 Just to conclude my examination, I would like you to
15 show a picture of the hospital building and the
16 surroundings, and I would like to ask you, briefly
17 just to show us the locations. That would be
18 Prosecution exhibit number 8. It is the photo album
19 titled, "Vukovar hospital", if I may ask the usher...
20 And if you could, please, show her the fifth
21 picture, picture number five? Yes, that is the very
22 one.
23 Can you please show us where the entrance or
24 rather exit to the hospital building is, where you and
25 your husband on the stretcher were taken out of the
1 building on the morning of November 20th, and please
2 indicate it -- yes -- with a stick.
3 A. Here is the exit just underneath this cover,
4 this roof, and then you go out of the hospital this
5 way, and then you go to the left, and this is the main
6 exit. This is where the women and children were, and
7 the civilians. This is the driveway through which we
8 passed, and on the left- and the right-hand side were
9 soldiers, and then we would pass through this driveway,
10 and reach the street and here is the rear side of the
11 hospital and behind the hospital were the buses, here.
12 (Indicating).
13 The two civilian ones then a military one
14 then another civilian one and then here behind these
15 buildings were the trucks.
16 MR. WAESPI: Thank you very much, Ms. Dosen.
17 That concludes my examination, your Honours.
18 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Mr. Fila?
19 Cross-examination by MR. FILA
20 MR. FILA: Your Honour, the reason that I will
21 have a few questions is the statement that I have just
22 received from the Prosecutor that was taken from
23 a child here in The Hague in the hotel.
24 I am very sorry that all this happened to
25 you, and believe me, I had no intention to
1 cross-examine you, except to express my condolences.
2 While you were waiting to be taken away by
3 the buses, did you see Ms. Katica Zera?
4 A. Do I not know Ms. Katica Zera in person.
5 I have never had any contact with her. I know her now,
6 but there were so many people in the hospital, that we
7 may have come across one another, but I simply did not
8 know her name.
9 Q. Could you please explain to me the time when
10 you left the hospital, and how much time you spent
11 outside until you boarded the bus and left with the
12 other women and children?
13 A. I came out of the hospital at 8 o'clock in
14 the morning. All these things that were happening took
15 place during that one and a half to two hours, next to
16 the buses outside the -- behind the Vukovar hospital.
17 Then I went back among the women and children
18 and civilians who were in the hospital, and we all left
19 together through the main exit, the other side, where
20 the convoy was with the European Community and we left
21 with them. This was after 11 o'clock.
22 MR. FILA: Thank you. That is all, your
23 Honour.
24 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you, Mr. Fila.
25 No re-examination? No.
1 Ms. Dosen, this court is very grateful to you
2 for coming here to testify. You may now be released.
3 A. Thank you too.
4 (The witness withdrew)
5 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honours, I call Tanja
6 Dosen.
7 (The witness entered court)
8 JUDGE CASSESE: Good morning. May I ask you
9 to make the solemn declaration, please?
10 TANJA DOSEN (sworn)
11 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. You may be seated.
12 Examined by MR. NIEMANN
13 Q. Is your name Tanja Dosen?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And when were you born? What was your date of
16 birth?
17 A. On 10th January 1977.
18 Q. Do you remember on the 6th September of 1995
19 Mr. Milner from the Office of the Prosecutor came to see
20 you and took from you a statement about the events that
21 occurred in Vukovar in 1991?
22 A. Yes. I remember.
23 Q. And do you remember that the statement was
24 taken down in the English language, and translated back
25 to you in the Croatian language?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And do you remember at the time being asked
3 to put your signature on the bottom of each page of the
4 statement?
5 A. Yes.
6 MR. NIEMANN: Would you look at this document
7 that I now show you, please?
8 Perhaps it might be given the next number in
9 order, your Honours. There is no translation into the
10 Croatian language.
11 THE REGISTRAR: That will be number 63.
12 MR. NIEMANN: Can you see your signature
13 appearing on the foot of each page of that statement?
14 A. Yes.
15 MR. NIEMANN: I tender that, your Honours.
16 JUDGE CASSESE: Mr. Fila, any objection? Thank
17 you.
18 MR. NIEMANN: Ms. Dosen, where did you spend
19 your life, where you grew up before 1991?
20 A. In Vukovar.
21 Q. And did you live there with your parents?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And what was your parents' name?
24 A. Martin and Ljubica Dosen.
25 Q. And in 1991, I think you would have been
1 about 14 and a half years of age. Is that right?
2 Towards the end of that?
3 A. Yes. In January 1995 I was 15.
4 Q. Now, even though you were quite young at the
5 time, do you have a good recollection of the events
6 that occurred in Vukovar, in particular in the latter
7 part of 1991?
8 A. Yes, I remember clearly.
9 Q. And were you in Vukovar during the siege of
10 Vukovar?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And were you with your mother and father
13 during that time?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Now, in the latter part of November of 1991,
16 did you have occasion to -- did your father leave you
17 and your mother?
18 A. Yes, because he was wounded and he was taken
19 to the Vukovar hospital.
20 Q. I have just had it pointed out to me that
21 I think -- I do not know whether you said it or whether
22 the translation made an error, but apparently you said
23 you were 15 in 1995. I think you meant 1992. Is that
24 right?
25 A. Sorry, yes. 1992. I am sorry.
1 Q. Now, can you tell us how it was that your
2 father became separated from you and your mother in the
3 latter part of November 1991?
4 A. After his second wounding, he was
5 hospitalised for a short period of time, but he came
6 home because there was not enough room at the hospital.
7 When the building was on fire, since the second and
8 fourth floor were burning, he could not take the -- he
9 could not go down by the staircase, he tried to go down
10 by a rope from the third floor balcony and his right
11 hand was in plaster, so he was going down the rope, he
12 fell and he injured his backbone and his arm and he was
13 taken to the hospital.
14 Q. And can you tell us when this was,
15 approximately, that he went to the hospital?
16 A. On the 14th or 15th November 1991, five or
17 six days before the fall of Vukovar.
18 Q. Now, did you then go to the hospital with
19 your father and mother?
20 A. No, I did not. My mother and I stayed behind
21 and my father was taken away by some people who were
22 there in front of the building.
23 Q. I see. And did you then later go to the
24 hospital? When did you go to the hospital?
25 A. We went afterwards when the shelling had
1 subsided a bit. My mother and I went to the hospital
2 then. However, they would not let me come to see my
3 father because they did not want to tell me that he was
4 immobile, so they took me back home and my mother
5 stayed on.
6 Q. I see. Now, did you then later go up to the
7 hospital yourself?
8 A. My father told my mother that evacuation was
9 to take place from the Vukovar hospital and that we
10 should go back to the Vukovar hospital together, so on
11 18th we came to the hospital together.
12 Q. And where did you stay when you got to the
13 hospital?
14 A. First we stayed next to my father, but since
15 there was not enough room for sleeping there we were
16 sent to the floor above the basement, but my father
17 would not let my mother leave him, so I went with my
18 granny.
19 Q. Where were you and your granny staying?
20 A. At the basement. That is actually the floor
21 above the basement underneath the ground floor.
22 Q. And how long were you there with your granny?
23 A. I stayed that night and then Dr. Bosanac came
24 and said that, "you cannot stay there", because there
25 were very many people at the hospital because they
1 heard that there would be an evacuation and she said
2 that who wanted to go to Velepromet could go there
3 because there would be a convoy going to Croatia from
4 there too, but then my mother came and said that
5 I should not go because my father would not let us go.
6 Q. So what did you do?
7 A. Then I went to see my father and we were
8 waiting there to see what would happen to us. My father
9 was immobile and he wanted my mother and I to help him
10 because there were not enough medical staff available.
11 Q. So did you do that?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And what was the next thing that happened?
14 A. The next day the Yugoslav army entered the
15 hospital, and also the reservists, or rather people who
16 lived in Vukovar before, but who were of Serb
17 ethnicity.
18 Q. And how could you tell the difference between
19 the Yugoslav army and the reservists?
20 A. The Yugoslav army were mostly young people,
21 and they had five-pointed stars on their caps and
22 reservists were older, unshaven, with long hair. They
23 had four Ss on their caps or cockades.
24 Q. And can you remember the date it was when
25 these people came, the JNA and the reservists?
1 A. 19th November 1991.
2 Q. What did they do when they came to the
3 hospital?
4 A. When they came into the hospital they first
5 looked around to see who was there, then they walked
6 around the hospital, they gave some people cigarettes,
7 they provoked other people, especially the locals. Not
8 the Yugoslav People's Army.
9 And after that two soldiers stood at the
10 entrance and did not allow any of the locals to get in
11 any more and what happened after that in the hospital
12 itself and in the room I was, there were not any army
13 people left there. The door was closed and we could not
14 see anything after that.
15 Q. And what happened then, after that?
16 A. Then on the morning of November 20th,
17 a soldier came into the hospital. He had a list, and he
18 was calling out the names of people who were wounded
19 and who were staying at that hospital, saying that they
20 should get out.
21 My father, he was immobile, he was on the
22 first on the list. They could not carry him out because
23 they had to wait for a stretcher to be brought so that
24 they could carry him out, rather.
25 Q. And were you with your father at this time?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And what about your mother? Was she there
3 too?
4 A. My mother was also there.
5 Q. And what happened?
6 A. Then two nurses came who were supposed to
7 carry my father. However, they were not strong enough
8 because my father was rather heavy and then two
9 soldiers came and they carried him to the back door of
10 the hospital, to the road. They put him in front of the
11 third bus, which was a military bus, and that is where
12 they left him, and then we stood there and waited, what
13 would happen next.
14 Q. And what did happen next?
15 A. I saw that in the first two buses, and in the
16 fourth bus they put as many people as they could;
17 however, the third bus was a military bus and only
18 arrested people went into that one.
19 Q. Now, the people that you saw going into the
20 third bus, did you know any of those people by name?
21 A. Yes, I did, because most of them were my
22 relatives. Two brothers of my father, then also two
23 cousins, my aunt.
24 Q. And are you able to tell us now the names of
25 any of those people?
1 A. Ivan Dosen, Tadija Dosen, Zvonko Vulic, Josip
2 Kozul, Sinisa Glavasevic, Martinja Dosen, Ruzica
3 Markobasic.
4 Q. Now, what was the next thing to happen?
5 A. While we were standing there, my mother asked
6 a soldier where these buses were going, and he answered
7 that he did not know, but since my father did not have
8 any clothes on, she asked why they did not take him
9 anywhere because it was rather cold, and then a soldier
10 said that a stretcher could not get on the bus.
11 Then they said that they would bring a truck,
12 and Major Sljivancanin ordered a truck to be brought
13 then.
14 Q. Now, you mentioned Major Sljivancanin. How
15 did you know it was Major Sljivancanin?
16 A. When the Yugoslav army entered the Vukovar
17 hospital, Major Sljivancanin came to the entrance and
18 he introduced himself.
19 Q. Thank you. And were you there when he did
20 this?
21 A. Yes, I was, because my father's bed was the
22 first one by the door.
23 Q. Okay. Now, what happened next? What was the
24 next thing that happened?
25 A. Then first they brought my aunt who was
1 pregnant. They brought her to this third bus and they
2 started searching her, and they threw her things out of
3 her handbag and then a soldier, as he led her into the
4 bus, he put something into my mother's hand and my
5 mother opened her hand and she said, "what is this?".
6 It was money and she said, "why are you giving it to
7 me? I do not need it", and he said, "you might need it
8 and she will never need it again".
9 Q. And what was your aunty's name, the one that
10 was pregnant?
11 A. Ruzica Markobasic.
12 Q. And what happened then?
13 A. Then two soldiers brought Martinja Jakubovski
14 from the hospital in front of the third bus too. He was
15 telling them something. I did not exactly hear what he
16 was saying. I was just asking what was happening and he
17 told me that I should stay calm and that everything
18 would be all right and he boarded the third bus too.
19 They took him into it.
20 MR. NIEMANN: Now, just look at this photo
21 I show you:
22 I would ask that the photograph be put on the
23 ELMO machine beside you.
24 Could you look now beside you there and do
25 you recognise that photograph?
1 A. Yes. That is my aunt's son, Martin
2 Jakubovski. He was also brought to the third bus and he
3 was identified at Ovcara.
4 Q. And he is the one that spoke to you when you
5 were standing there outside the hospital, that you have
6 just mentioned.
7 A. Yes.
8 MR. NIEMANN: I tender that, your Honours.
9 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit 64.
10 MR. NIEMANN: Now, after Martin
11 Jakubovski-Dosen spoke to you, what was the next thing
12 that happened?
13 A. Then my mummy went to Major Sljivancanin and
14 she asked him why my father was not taken away from
15 there. Then he ordered two soldiers to take a stretcher
16 and to take him to the truck, because the stretcher
17 could not get onto the bus, and then my mummy said,
18 "Well, would you take these things too?", and he said,
19 "Well, he will not be needing those things". Then he
20 probably realised what he had said, and then he turned
21 to my mummy and said, "who do you think is going to
22 carry these things of his?"
23 Q. And what happened then?
24 A. And then they put him down because the truck
25 had not arrived yet, and then Major Sljivancanin told
1 me and my mummy that we should join the other women and
2 children. We have never seen him after that.
3 Q. Did your father say anything while this was
4 all happening?
5 A. While we were standing in front of the bus,
6 he told my mummy to get me out of there and did she not
7 see what was going on, and then he took off his
8 wristwatch and he gave my mummy that wristwatch and in
9 the hospital, in Vukovar, on 18th November, he gave me
10 the chain he wore around his neck.
11 Q. And what happened after that?
12 A. After that, when we were sent to join the
13 other women and children, for some time we stood in
14 front of the main hospital building and then we were
15 told to board the buses because the evacuation was
16 starting.
17 Q. And when you boarded the buses, where did you
18 go?
19 A. Then we went through the centre of town and
20 we came to Velepromet. We just stood there for perhaps
21 ten or fifteen minutes and then we were taken to
22 Negoslavci. We also stood there for a short period of
23 time and then finally we went to Sremska Mitrovica
24 where we spent a few days.
25 Q. And what happened after a few days in Sremska
1 Mitrovica?
2 A. After that we went to Croatia. We went to
3 Jakovo. We only spent a few hours there, then we went
4 to Djurdjovac. We only spent the night there and then
5 mummy and I came to Zagreb.
6 Q. And have you seen your father since?
7 A. Never seen him since, and I never heard
8 anything about him.
9 Q. And what of your cousin, Martin
10 Jakubovski-Dosen. Have you ever heard or seen him
11 since?
12 A. Only when he was buried after having been
13 identified at Ovcara.
14 Q. And what about your aunty?
15 A. She has not been identified yet. Nor has she
16 been found.
17 MR. NIEMANN: No further questions, your
18 Honour.
19 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Mr. Fila?
20 Cross-examined by MR. FILA
21 Q. Your Honour, first of all, I wish to express
22 my condolences, because of the fact that this tragedy
23 occurred, and the only question I have is about the
24 time, if you know, when you went out. Were there other
25 people there, I mean in front of the hospital, women
1 and children?
2 A. We went out early in the morning.
3 Q. At what time?
4 A. I cannot exactly tell, around 7 o'clock,
5 because the European Community arrived only around 11.
6 I know exactly because I had my watch on my wrist and
7 when I boarded the bus I looked at the watch and it
8 was --
9 Q. 11 o'clock?
10 A. Yes, 11 o'clock.
11 Q. And my last question, at what time did you
12 last see Major Sljivancanin?
13 A. I do not know exactly what time it was, but
14 I just know that it was on the 19th November, before
15 the evening began.
16 Q. I am asking about the 20th. When did you
17 first see him? You went out at 7 o'clock?
18 A. Yes, we went out at 7.
19 Q. And when did you see him?
20 A. Well, how much time is needed to get from the
21 basement to the street? Perhaps about 10 or 15 minutes,
22 and then we stood there for about fifteen or twenty
23 minutes when he came, then my mother talked to him.
24 M FILA: So about half an hour, so perhaps
25 around 7.30. Thank you very much and I apologise once
1 again for having questioned you.
2 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.
3 MR. NIEMANN: Nothing.
4 JUDGE CASSESE: No questions. Is there any
5 objection to the witness being released?
6 MR. NIEMANN: No, your Honour.
7 JUDGE CASSESE: No objection. Well, thank
8 you, Ms. Dosen, so much for coming here to testify.
9 You may now be released.
10 I wonder whether the Prosecutor feels that we
11 may be able to hear the next two witnesses before
12 lunch?
13 MR. NIEMANN: I am not sure whether they are
14 available, your Honour, but I would certainly call the
15 next witness, and if an enquiry can be made, I am ready
16 to proceed, put it that way, at least with the next
17 witness.
18 They may not be here though, your Honour.
19 (Pause).
20 JUDGE CASSESE: While we are waiting for the
21 witness, I would like to ask both parties -- whether
22 they are in a position to provide, whenever possible,
23 to the court a copy, if possible in English, of any
24 international agreement entered into by the Republic of
25 Croatia between, say, June and December 1991. If they
1 happen to know of any such agreement, it would be most
2 helpful to the court.
3 (Witness entered court)
4 MR. NIEMANN: If your Honour pleases, we will
5 make enquiries.
6 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.
7 MR. FILA: Your Honour, when you say,
8 "agreement", do you mean agreements with Yugoslavia
9 too, perhaps, or with some other states?
10 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes, not only with
11 Yugoslavia, any international agreement. We have
12 already been given an agreement.
13 MR. FILA: Agreements with Yugoslavia are in
14 the documents I provided to you.
15 JUDGE CASSESE: I would like to ask the
16 witness to make the solemn declaration.
17 KATICA ZERA (sworn)
18 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. You may be seated.
19 Examined by MR. NIEMANN
20 Q. Would you please state your full name?
21 A. Katica Zera.
22 Q. Ms. Zera, if you would like to have a drink
23 of water at any time, there is a glass there for you
24 for that.
25 A. Thank you.
1 Q. Can you tell us your date of birth?
2 A. 20th November 1960.
3 Q. Ms. Zera, could you speak up a little bit?
4 I know this is hard for you, so... but just move in
5 a little bit. That is the idea.
6 A. Do you want me to repeat it?
7 Q. Yes, if you would not mind.
8 A. 20th November 1960.
9 Q. And where were you born?
10 A. Bodjani, which is in Vojvodina.
11 Q. And where did you spend the majority of your
12 adult life?
13 A. In Vukovar.
14 Q. And did you -- were you married in Vukovar,
15 and I am talking the period prior to 1991?
16 A. Yes, yes. Yes I was. Yes.
17 Q. And what was your husband's name?
18 A. Mihajlo Zera.
19 Q. And what did he do for a living? What was his
20 job?
21 A. A driver, a professional driver.
22 Q. And who did he drive for?
23 A. He drove for Cazmatrans, that is a company,
24 and during the war, because he could not get out of
25 Vukovar, he stayed in the town and the hospital needed
1 a driver, so he took the job.
2 Q. And what did he drive? What sort of vehicle
3 did he drive for the hospital? Can you remember?
4 A. Well, at the beginning it was an ambulance,
5 then a combi-van. It depends. When the vehicles were
6 destroyed, then he drove whatever was left. Civilian or
7 any other vehicles.
8 Q. Now, did you and your husband have any
9 children?
10 A. Yes, two.
11 Q. And what children do you have? What were the
12 sexes of the children?
13 A. Boy and a girl. A son and a daughter.
14 Q. And when was the girl born?
15 A. In 1981.
16 Q. And when was the boy born?
17 A. In 1978.
18 Q. And can you remember your husband's birth
19 date?
20 A. Yes. 7th August 1955.
21 Q. Now, I want to ask you some questions about
22 the siege of Vukovar, and picking up at about in
23 September of 1991 through to November 1991, now, during
24 that time, where were you staying when the siege was
25 on?
1 A. In September we came to the hospital because
2 I am a diabetic and I take insulin and my husband
3 worked in the hospital, and they worked all day and all
4 night so he could not take care of us. So he brought us
5 there, and our part of town had fallen. It was under
6 the JNA, so we could not stay in our own house, so we
7 spent all that time in the hospital from September
8 until the fall of Vukovar.
9 Q. And what part of the hospital did he stay in?
10 A. In the old building in the basement.
11 Q. During the time you were in the hospital, did
12 you come to learn of the fact that there would be an
13 evacuation of the people from the hospital?
14 A. Yes, yes. When Vukovar fell, this was the
15 17th, we heard that there would be an evacuation the
16 next day, but it did not happen. It was postponed, day
17 after day until the 20th, finally.
18 Q. Who told you that there was going to be an
19 evacuation?
20 A. My husband.
21 Q. And perhaps going back to about 18th November
22 1991, were you still in the hospital at that stage?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And what happened? Did anything happen on
25 18th November?
1 A. Well, the army came. This was the regular
2 army, and after that others came too.
3 Q. And when you say, "the regular army", are you
4 referring to the Yugoslav People's Army?
5 A. Yes. Yes.
6 Q. And how did you determine that they were the
7 Yugoslav People's Army that came?
8 A. They were young, young men, tidy, and they
9 had five-pointed stars on their caps.
10 Q. Now, when they came to the hospital on
11 18th November what did they do?
12 A. They lined up. They were standing there in
13 the corridors. It is hard for me to tell now. And they
14 were outside too.
15 Q. And did anything else of note happen on
16 18th November, that you can now remember?
17 A. I remember that others also came, as I said.
18 I think that these are paramilitaries, locals from
19 Vukovar.
20 Q. And what made you think that they were
21 paramilitaries as opposed to the JNA?
22 A. On their caps they had four Ss. They were
23 unkempt, beards, long hair, they even had cockades,
24 some of them, and they were older.
25 Q. And did they do anything that you could see
1 or remember now?
2 A. Well, I saw that they were walking around the
3 corridors, that they were looking at the wounded, and
4 I know that they would recognise them. They would
5 recognise people.
6 Q. Okay. Now, what was the next thing to happen,
7 after these soldiers had came?
8 A. Some came in, others went out. There was
9 always someone around.
10 Q. Now, if we can take you to the morning of
11 20th November, 1991, did you see your husband on that
12 day, on that -- in the morning of that day?
13 A. Yes, I did, in the morning.
14 Q. And what did he say to you?
15 A. He said that he would come to fetch us
16 because we were in a small room in the basement. Myself
17 with the children, and another woman with her children,
18 her husband was my husband's colleague. He was also
19 a driver.
20 They told us not to go out until they came to
21 fetch us.
22 Q. What was the name of your husband's colleague
23 who was also a driver?
24 A. Ilija Asazanin.
25 Q. About what time in the morning was it when
1 your husband told you this?
2 A. I did not have a watch, and I do not know.
3 I cannot tell you.
4 Q. Okay. And did you then -- did your husband
5 come back as was planned?
6 A. Yes. Yes. Both he and Ilija came back to
7 fetch us, and we went out together. We went as far as
8 the exit.
9 Q. And when you got to the exit, what happened
10 then?
11 A. Next to the door was Major Sljivancanin, and
12 a lot of soldiers. He told us that the men should go to
13 one side and the women and children to another.
14 Q. How did you know it was Major Sljivancanin
15 that said this?
16 A. He introduced himself. He delivered a speech.
17 He introduced himself.
18 Q. And then did you have a conversation with
19 your husband at that point?
20 A. Yes. When he said that we should separate my
21 husband stopped for a while. I asked him whether he
22 needed any money. He did not want anything. He just
23 wanted to congratulate me on my birthday because it was
24 my birthday that day, and while we were standing there
25 for a moment, Major Sljivancanin came up and said,
1 "come on, hurry up, you have to separate now".
2 Q. And what happened next?
3 A. My husband and his colleague joined the group
4 that was already there. I just stood and watched, and
5 then we went to the side where the women and children
6 were and we joined them.
7 Q. And did you see your husband after that?
8 A. No. Never again.
9 Q. Now, what happened to the women and children?
10 A. We waited for the buses, and after quite some
11 time, I cannot say how long it was, the buses came, and
12 we were evacuated.
13 Q. On the last day that you saw your husband,
14 can you remember how he was dressed?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Can you tell us how he was dressed?
17 A. Yes. He had a sweat suit, a sweater, and
18 a white coat and on his feet he was wearing sports
19 shoes.
20 Q. And do you remember whether he had any
21 tattoos on his body at all?
22 A. Yes, he did.
23 Q. Can you describe the tattoos he had on his
24 body?
25 A. He had the date when he joined the army, the
1 date when he served in the army, and a heart with an
2 arrow through it. Those were tattoos.
3 Q. Do you remember whether he had ever broken
4 a part of his leg?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. When did he do that?
7 A. As a child.
8 Q. And do you know whether or not it was the
9 right or left leg? You may not remember.
10 A. I do not remember, and when I was giving this
11 statement his mother told me which leg it was.
12 MR. NIEMANN: Now, I want to you look at
13 a photograph I am about to show you, and might this
14 photograph be placed on the ELMO? I have a copy for
15 Mr. Fila, and it be given the next number in order.
16 THE REGISTRAR: Number 65.
17 MR. NIEMANN: Please can that be placed on the
18 ELMO? Thank you.
19 A. Yes. That is my husband.
20 MR. NIEMANN: Yes. I tender that, your Honour.
21 Now, after you and your husband separated,
22 the women and children went off in one direction, and
23 your husband went and you did not see him again. Where
24 did you go?
25 A. We were evacuated in a convoy. We spent one
1 night in Mitrovica in a sports hall. After that we went
2 to Croatia.
3 Q. Did you make enquiries as to what had
4 happened to your husband after you left, after you
5 arrived in Zagreb?
6 A. Yes. Yes. I did. Along the way too in
7 Mitrovica. There were people who had got to the
8 barracks and then they joined us in the convoy. There
9 was Mr. Simunovic, Jakob.
10 Q. And what did you find out about your husband,
11 as you made these enquiries?
12 A. Not much, just that they got as far as the
13 barracks and the compound there, then they were taken
14 back to the hospital, and all the others stayed.
15 Q. And what happened then? What did -- was that
16 the only thing that you found out about your husband,
17 right up until the present moment?
18 A. Yes. I did not know anything else. I heard in
19 Zagreb from Mr. Simunovic that he had been beaten in the
20 barracks.
21 Q. And did you hear any more? Did you make any
22 other enquiries?
23 A. Yes, I did make enquiries but I did not learn
24 anything.
25 MR. NIEMANN: Okay. I have no further
1 questions, your Honour.
2 JUDGE CASSESE: Mr. Fila?
3 Cross-examined by MR. FILA
4 Q. Your Honour, as for the previous witnesses,
5 I wish to express my regrets for what happened. I only
6 have a few questions.
7 Who spoke to you and when about this case
8 among the Tribunal's investigators?
9 A. Ms. Mira Draskovic. What do you mean, "when"?
10 Q. On behalf of the Tribunal, the Prosecutor's
11 Office. You said that you asked your mother about the
12 leg and who was talking to you? Who was interviewing
13 you and when?
14 A. No, we were filling in a form for a --
15 a search form in 1992, actually, and they wanted us to
16 describe the body, whether there were any fractures,
17 tattoos, or diseases.
18 Q. We still have not understood one another. Did
19 anyone, on behalf of the Prosecution, come to see you
20 and talk to you and when?
21 A. Among the Prosecutors? Yes, they visited us
22 at home and asked us whether we would be willing to
23 testify.
24 Q. And who was it? And when?
25 A. I cannot remember the date exactly. I know
1 that Ms. Mira Draskovic was there, and I cannot recall
2 the name of the Prosecutor.
3 Q. Which year was this? Last year? This year?
4 A. Last year.
5 Q. In 1997, then?
6 A. Yes. After the identification of my husband.
7 Q. Did you sign any statement?
8 A. Not at the time.
9 Q. When, then?
10 A. Yes, I beg your pardon, I did. Yes. They came
11 to our house and both I and my son signed the
12 statement.
13 Q. So this was last year, was it?
14 A. Yes.
15 MR. FILA: We do not have those statements,
16 your Honour. Especially the son's.
17 JUDGE CASSESE: Mr. Niemann?
18 MR. NIEMANN: So far as I am concerned,
19 neither do we, your Honour.
20 MR. FILA: Do you not have one either. Oh.
21 Never mind. Let us continue then, shall we?
22 May I please take you back to the worst day
23 in your life, but I have to do it. I do apologise. How
24 did you leave the hospital on the 20th, all four of
25 you?
1 A. All eight of us.
2 Q. No, I am talking about your husband and your
3 two children.
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. When you were separating from your husband
6 were you still altogether? All four of you?
7 A. He went off with the group with the men
8 whereas I and the children went in the opposite
9 direction.
10 Q. I would not have asked you if you had not
11 omitted to mention your children.
12 A. Yes. Myself and the children. You see,
13 I stopped for a moment and was looking at the group, my
14 husband and Ilija joining that group.
15 Q. And the children?
16 A. The children may have made two steps in the
17 direction of the group in front of me.
18 Q. Could you please tell us what time it was
19 when you left, and how much time later did you see
20 Major Sljivancanin, who introduced himself?
21 A. I have already said I did not have a watch at
22 the time. It was the morning. Maybe about 8 o'clock. It
23 may have been before or a few minutes after.
24 Q. I did not expect you to tell us the exact
25 minute. So it was about 8 o'clock, and it was then that
1 you saw Sljivancanin?
2 A. Yes, he was standing there.
3 Q. When you came out, so when you came out you
4 saw Sljivancanin straight away?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Thank you. When you were talking to
7 Sljivancanin, was your son present?
8 A. I did not talk to him.
9 Q. No, when he was making the speech.
10 A. Maybe they were a step or two away from me.
11 My husband came up to me, he kissed me, he wished me
12 a happy birthday and then Major Sljivancanin came up
13 and said, "there is no hesitating, you have to
14 separate. Each one to his side".
15 MR. FILA: And your two children were there,
16 a metre or two away from you? Thank you very much, and
17 I apologise for having to ask you these questions.
18 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you, Mr. Fila.
19 MR. NIEMANN: Nothing, your Honour.
20 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.
21 Ms. Zera, thank you so much for coming here
22 to testify. I see that there is no objection to the
23 witness being released so she is released. You may be
24 released.
25 Mr. Niemann, do you think we can call the last
1 witness?
2 MR. NIEMANN: We are not in a position to call
3 the last witness, your Honour, and I think we need to
4 have a discussion with Mr. Fila about another matter, so
5 I think it might be convenient if we could do that.
6 I should indicate that after the conclusion of the next
7 witness we will be making an application in closed
8 session, so if that could be -- I just alert the
9 Registrar to that so that if we could be in that
10 position, so at the conclusion of the next witness, if
11 your Honours please. I am sorry, this witness is not
12 available just at the moment.
13 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes. Thank you. So we --
14 Mr. Fila? All right. We stand now in recess until 2.30:
15 2.15. Is that all right? 2.15? Yes, 2.15.
16 (12.45 pm)
17 (Luncheon adjournment)
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
1 (2.15 pm)
2 (The witness entered court)
3 JUDGE CASSESE: Stand up, and make the solemn
4 declaration
5 DRAGAN ZERA (sworn)
6 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. You may be seated.
7 Examined by MR. WAESPI
8 Q. Would you please state to the court your full
9 name?
10 A. Dragan Zera.
11 Q. How old are you today?
12 A. 20.
13 Q. So in 1991 you were just 13 years old?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Where did you go to school?
16 A. I went to school in Vukovar, and in Zagreb.
17 Q. What is your profession?
18 A. I am a salesperson.
19 Q. Where were you living in 1991?
20 A. Vukovar.
21 Q. What was the profession of your father?
22 A. Professional driver.
23 Q. And who was his employer?
24 A. He worked in Cazmatrans and in 1991 he got
25 a job at the Vukovar hospital.
1 Q. Was there a time when you left your home and
2 went to live at the hospital in 1991?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Can you indicate what time that was, if you
5 recall?
6 A. On 17th September 1991.
7 Q. Did somebody else from your family move with
8 you to the hospital, or was already there at that time?
9 A. Yes, my mother and my sister went with him --
10 with me and since my father was already working there
11 he was there.
12 Q. How many nights did you spend at the Vukovar
13 hospital?
14 A. The nights from 17th September until
15 20th November.
16 MR. WAESPI: I would like now to show you
17 a picture, and that would be Prosecution exhibit number
18 8. It is again the fifth photograph. Thank you.
19 Dragan, do you recognise this building?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Can you now explain to us what you have seen
22 on the morning of 20th November 1991 when you were
23 taken out of the hospital, and if you may, you could
24 refer to this picture. That would assist us, and if
25 I may ask you, you have to indicate that on the ELMO.
1 A. On 20th November in the morning we got out
2 here. This is where they separated us from my father.
3 They said that the men should go to the left-hand side
4 and the children and women to the right-hand side, then
5 we were standing here for about two hours, next to the
6 buses. (Indicated).
7 Major Sljivancanin addressed us there. He
8 introduced himself to us and he made a speech. We stood
9 there for some time after that, and then we moved
10 towards the buses that were waiting here. We were
11 sitting on the buses for some time.
12 Q. Yes. Can I quickly interrupt you? You said
13 that you were taken out of the hospital and you
14 indicated on the picture the exit. Can you tell us who
15 told you to leave the building?
16 A. The soldiers of the JNA army told us to leave
17 the building.
18 Q. You mentioned Sljivancanin. Did you know him
19 at that time?
20 A. No, I did not know him until he addressed us
21 and until he introduced himself to us.
22 Q. You said later that you left your father at
23 the -- close to the exit of the hospital. Is that
24 correct?
25 A. At the exit of the hospital.
1 Q. Yes. Thank you. Can you tell us the name of
2 your father, and the name also of your mother?
3 A. Mihajlo Zera and Katica Zera.
4 MR. WAESPI: I would like now to show you
5 another picture and this is the most recent Prosecution
6 exhibit, I believe it is number 65.
7 Can you tell us who this person is?
8 A. That is my father.
9 Q. And can you tell us when this picture was
10 taken?
11 A. This picture was taken in 1991 in front of
12 the old Vukovar hospital.
13 Q. Thank you very much. Last question, after you
14 have boarded the buses, where were you taken to? Do you
15 remember the route the buses took?
16 A. We went towards the fairgrounds, next to
17 Velepromet and then we went to Negoslavci where we
18 stood for about half an hour and then we went to
19 Mitrovica. We spent the night there and then we went to
20 Croatia.
21 MR. WAESPI: Thank you very much. No further
22 questions, your Honour.
23 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Mr. Fila?
24 MR. FILA: No questions, thank you very much.
25 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. So I assume there
1 is no objection to the witness being dismissed.
2 Mr. Zera, thank you so much for coming here to
3 testify. You may now be released.
4 A. Thank you.
5 JUDGE CASSESE: I wonder whether the
6 Prosecutor has anything to add.
7 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honours, that is the
8 evidence that we have available for this week, but we
9 now wish to make a submission in closed session, if the
10 court could go into closed session, your Honours, and
11 my colleague Mr. Williamson will make the submission.
12 JUDGE CASSESE: Mr. Fila? Any objection? Any
13 comment? No?
14 MR. FILA: No thank you, your Honour, no.
15 JUDGE CASSESE: Before we move on to our
16 closed session, may I, for one second, take a few
17 seconds of your time? I would like to take this
18 opportunity to point out that we are now coming to the
19 end of a good week of hard work, and on behalf of my
20 colleagues and myself I would like to express to both
21 parties, to the Defence and the Prosecution our sincere
22 appreciation for their cooperative and helpful
23 attitude. I think it is indeed gratifying to note that
24 we all share the same concern, namely to ensure the
25 accused an absolutely fair, effective and expeditious
1 trial. So thank you so much. I hope that the same
2 atmosphere will continue also in the next weeks.
3 I now suggest that we move to the closed
4 session.
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