1 Monday, 2 April 2007

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.01 a.m.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let the witness make the declaration.

7 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the

8 whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

9 WITNESS: THOMAS HANSEN

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: You may sit.

11 I should say before we start that on Wednesday, that's Wednesday

12 the 4th, we'll be stopping at 1.15 p.m. in order to allow another Trial

13 Chamber to give its sentencing judgement in a case. So please bear that

14 in mind, we'll stop at 1.15 on Wednesday.

15 Now, this is Captain Hansen; and in accordance the procedure that

16 I had explained, I'll allow both parties to put questions whether by way

17 of cross-examination or examination to Captain Hansen, and these will be

18 based on the statement that has been provided.

19 So let us start with Mr. Whiting of the Office of the Prosecutor.

20 MR. WHITING: Thank you, Your Honour. Good morning.

21 Examination by Mr. Whiting:

22 Q. Good morning, Captain Hansen.

23 A. Good morning.

24 Q. My name is Alex Whiting, and I'm one of the Prosecutors in this

25 case. We've never met before, is that right?

1 A. That's right.

2 Q. And we have never spoke before, is that right?

3 A. That's right.

4 Q. I arrived in The Hague on Friday.

5 THE INTERPRETER: Would the speakers please bear in mind that they

6 are being interpreted, so please make pauses between questions and

7 answers. Thank you.

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let me just repeat that. You have to observe a

9 pause between the question and answer in the interest of the

10 interpretation.

11 MR. WHITING: Thank you, Your Honour, and thank you to the

12 interpreters.

13 Q. Captain Hansen, I'm going ask if you could -- we have a very short

14 time, so if could you try to make your answers as brief as possible, even

15 if yes or no is sufficient, then just limit it, please, to just yes or no.

16 Do you understand?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Sir, I want to draw your attention to the 28th of June, 1995. You

19 were in the PTT building when an air bomb hit the TV tower in Sarajevo; is

20 that right?

21 A. I was in the TV building; but if it was an air bomb, I'm not sure.

22 Q. When the bomb hit, were you in the TV building or the PTT

23 building?

24 A. PTT building.

25 Q. Okay. Thank you. After it hit, another UNMO came into the PTT

1 building and spoke with you about what he saw; is that right?

2 A. He came to make a report about what he had observed.

3 Q. You yourself did not see anything; is that right?

4 A. That's correct.

5 Q. I want to show you a report that you have written.

6 MR. WHITING: And with the assistance of the usher I would like to

7 pass out copies. I know everybody probably has a copy.

8 Q. Captain, this is 65 ter 536. Captain, is this your report?

9 A. This is my report, yes.

10 Q. Now, in the report, you include a grid reference. Do you see that

11 in the first bullet point?

12 A. Yes, I see it.

13 Q. Who came up with that grid reference?

14 A. The UNMO that reported this.

15 Q. So the -- your testimony is that the UNMO came into the building

16 and told you this information and gave you a specific grid reference?

17 A. That's correct. We always worked with a grid references; and when

18 he came in, I asked him to -- to tell me where it was fired from because

19 he had seen where it was fired from. And he went down to the parking

20 place again together with another UNMO, and they came back and reported

21 this was the grid it was fired from.

22 MR. WHITING: Now, I'm going to ask that a map be shown - it's 65

23 ter 3096 - on the e-court system.

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Whiting, may I just ask the Captain: How are

25 grid references determined?

1 THE WITNESS: I don't understand the question.

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, you said that the UNMO went and returned

3 and gave you the grid reference.

4 THE WITNESS: Yes, that's correct.

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: That's a technical matter.

6 THE WITNESS: He came back and showed on the map and as the bomb

7 was fired from a place very near to where he parked the car, within to 200

8 to 300 metres from he parked the car. And he could point out the

9 direction, and from that we were quite sure about the grid reference he

10 gave as well.

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Whiting.

12 MR. WHITING: I will try to clarify.

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. What I'm really trying to get at is the

14 numbers 866587, how is that arrived at.

15 THE WITNESS: I referred to a map we were using by the UNMOs in

16 Sarajevo.

17 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the witness, please.

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Witness's microphone need to be turned.

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: It's my microphone that was on.

20 Yes, please give us the answer again.

21 THE WITNESS: I say that they refer to a map was used by the UNMOs

22 in Sector Sarajevo to the map. Do you want me to --

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: What information would they need to have to

24 arrive at the grid reference, this number 866587.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, that's a reading of a map. If

1 you read the grid to find -- find an exact place on the map. I'm not sure

2 about your question, because it's -- it's obvious to me what to use the

3 grid for. Are you asking --

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: There is some basic empirical data on which the

5 grid reference is determined.

6 THE WITNESS: I'm not sure what you're asking about, sir.

7 MR. WHITING: Perhaps I could clarify it with a question.

8 [Trial Chamber confers]

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Go ahead, Mr. Whiting, and we can return to this.

10 MR. WHITING: Thank you, Your Honour.

11 Q. Is it fair to say, Captain Hansen, and correct me if I am wrong,

12 that the first number, 866, refers to a number that you derive on one side

13 of the map, that is the left-hand side of the map on the grid; and the

14 second number then is 587, and you go along the top of the map and where

15 those two points meet is what the grid reference refers to?

16 A. That's correct.

17 Q. And the grid that is used has a correlation to distance; that is,

18 you can calculate -- if you have one grid reference and then another grid

19 reference, you can calculate the distance between the two points, because

20 they refer to every 100 metres or so?

21 A. Yes, they do.

22 Q. Okay.

23 A. In this case, they refer to 100 metres?

24 Q. Now, if you look at this map, you can see there is the PTT

25 building, the TV tower, and the grid reference that has been identified.

1 And you have said that you have identified the grid reference as being a

2 point some 2 to 300 metres away from the PTT parking lot. Is that right?

3 A. That's right.

4 Q. Okay. Now, at the time this incident occurred -- well, by the

5 way, you mentioned - and I don't believe it is in your report - that the

6 UNMO, who says he saw this, calculated the grid reference with another

7 UNMO. Who -- do you know the identity of this other UNMO?

8 A. I don't remember him.

9 Q. So you don't remember the identity of either of these two UNMOs

10 that we're talking about?

11 A. I think I remember one of them.

12 Q. Okay. We'll get back to that.

13 Now, at the time this occurred, the UNPROFOR was using the PTT

14 building as a headquarters; is that right?

15 A. That's right.

16 Q. I think we're going a little quickly, if you could take a pause.

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

18 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] I'm sorry, Your Honour. Could we

19 slow down a little bit, please, because I'm listening to the translation,

20 and I find it difficult to follow the English. So kindly just slow down a

21 little, please, because the speed is rather great. Thank you.

22 MR. WHITING: Yes.

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, please slow down a bit in the -- in the

24 answers.

25 MR. WHITING:

1 Q. Is it fair to say, Captain Hansen, that there were over 100

2 people, maybe even 150 people, working in the PTT building at the time?

3 A. There was a lot more than 150.

4 Q. How many would you say there were?

5 A. I know there was a headquarters for Sector Sarajevo, and there was

6 the people working for the headquarters for the military operation that --

7 as UNMOs, we were only 80 UNMOs.

8 Q. But how many total people would you say were working in that

9 building, since you said it was more 150. You said a lot more than 150.

10 A. It could be between 3 and 500 people.

11 Q. And that building is building of several floors and it has windows

12 looking in the direction of this grid reference. Is that correct?

13 A. That's correct. But all the windows on most of them were blended.

14 Q. Now, are you aware of anybody else who saw this bomb being

15 launched from this location?

16 A. No. No.

17 Q. You yourself participated in the investigation of the bomb on the

18 TV tower later that day; correct?

19 A. We were not allowed to carry out any investigation.

20 Q. Isn't it true that you participated with the Bosnian police later

21 on that day in the investigation. You were present when they did the

22 investigation?

23 A. That's not correct.

24 Q. You're certain about that?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. Do you know what the results of the investigation were?

2 A. No.

3 Q. So you're not aware that the results of the investigation

4 determined that the bomb that hit the TV tower was a 250-kilo bomb -- air

5 bomb?

6 A. As I have been telling to an investigation team later on in

7 September, I think it was in September, we were not allowed to make any

8 investigation at the scene, and we were -- what was not normal we were not

9 informed by the Bosnian the result of this investigation. They always

10 carried out themselves.

11 Q. When you say "we were not informed," who do you mean?

12 A. The UNMOs.

13 Q. How do you know that the UNMOs were not informed? I mean, you can

14 speak about yourself not being informed but how do you know about others?

15 A. Because as being the operation officer, I was the one who always

16 received the reports from the Bosnians whenever they have carried out an

17 investigation. They wanted -- in many cases, they wanted us to -- I'm

18 missing the word. They wanted to us confirm that we made a report that

19 was similar to the one that had been doing.

20 In this case, we were not allowed to carry out any investigation.

21 I was on the scene where the bomb hit, shortly after it hit. But I was

22 waiting there for, I think, two hours, and we were not allowed to carry

23 out any investigation.

24 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] You were not allowed to carry out

25 an investigation. You were not allowed by whom? Who were the people that

1 prevented you from conducting an investigation?

2 THE WITNESS: The Bosnian police and military.

3 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Thank you.

4 MR. WHITING:

5 Q. Sir, you testified that you were on the scene. What do you mean

6 by that?

7 A. If I can explain how things happen. After this UNMO came to the

8 office and reported, we made the report which was sent to the offices

9 where it was meant to be sent. I went down to the liaison officer from

10 the BiH and told him that we were now going -- the UNMOs, we were now

11 going to the scene. I took one of the UNMOs from the PTT building, one of

12 my UNMOs working together with me.

13 And we arrived to the scene, we were the first UNMOs or the first

14 UN personnel to arrive. We went into where the bomb had hit and were then

15 taken away from -- from the scene of the either police or military, I

16 don't remember that. There was still incoming shells at that moment and,

17 they told us were not allowed to carry out any investigation for our own

18 security.

19 We were then waiting for, as I said before, I believe more than

20 two hours and were not allowed to go no the scene and carry out any

21 investigation. That was, for us, very unusual because normally the BiH

22 wanted us and always pushed us to -- or wanted us to carry out the

23 investigation. But in this case we were not allowed to do, and afterwards

24 we didn't receive any report from the BiH about this, their own

25 investigation.

1 Q. Let's take this one step at a time, Captain. I'm going to ask if

2 we could look --

3 MR. WHITING: First, could we admit this map into evidence,

4 please.

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, we admit it. Give it a number, please.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this becomes P517.

7 MR. WHITING: Could we now look at Prosecution Exhibit 134,

8 please, and if we could scroll down to the bottom of the page.

9 Q. Captain, this is a report from the Bosnian police about the air

10 bomb investigation -- about the investigation into the air bomb that hit

11 the TV tower that day. And if you look at the bottom there, it says: "UN

12 military observes, group SW-2, Captain Idriz from Kenya and Captain Thomas

13 from Denmark and others were present in the investigation."

14 Now, I take it that the "Captain Thomas from Denmark" is a

15 reference to you?

16 A. That's correct.

17 Q. And according to this report, you were present along with the

18 others for the investigation. Are you now saying that is not true?

19 A. I am saying I was not present at any investigation. I was there

20 waiting for two hours, and I had to leave, again, without carrying out any

21 investigation.

22 Q. Are you aware that the air bomb hit at approximately 9.20, 9.22 in

23 the morning?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Do you see that according to this report in the second paragraph

1 the -- this police centre was informed at 10.45 and then proceeded to the

2 scene.

3 A. Yeah.

4 Q. If you were there for some two-hours, you would have been there

5 when they were there; isn't that right?

6 A. That's correct.

7 Q. But you said you did not participate in the investigation?

8 A. That's correct. I was taken to another room. When I arrived to

9 the TV building, I went to the scene where the impact had been,

10 immediately, and then I was taken away to another room. And we were

11 waiting in another room for two-hours, I believe.

12 Q. Now, I want to show you a short video --

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Please explain what you need by taken to another

14 room.

15 THE WITNESS: I was told that because for my own security or our

16 security because there is still incoming shells, at the moment, we were

17 taken to another room.

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Were you free to leave the room?

19 THE WITNESS: Yes, I was free to leave the room.

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: But you remained in that room?

21 THE WITNESS: Yes, we did.

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: For how long?

23 THE WITNESS: I believe it was two hours. It's a long time ago so

24 it's difficult to --

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: And who else was in the room with you?

1 THE WITNESS: When reading the report now, I believe it was

2 Captain Idriz from Kenya.

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Who is that Captain Idriz? Is that the same UNMO

4 who gave you the report?

5 THE WITNESS: I believe that, yeah. Yeah.

6 JUDGE HARHOFF: Captain Hansen, when you say you were taken to the

7 scene, does that mean down at the place where the bomb had exploded on the

8 ground, or were you also able to visit the roof of the building?

9 THE WITNESS: I was at the bottom of the building where there was

10 damages from the bomb.

11 JUDGE HARHOFF: But you were not on the top of the building?

12 THE WITNESS: No, I was not.

13 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you.

14 MR. WHITING:

15 Q. Captain, I'm going to show you a very brief, one-minute video clip

16 of an air bomb being launched, and I will ask you questions about it

17 afterwards. Bear in mind that this clip, this air bomb that is being

18 launched is an 100-kilogram air bomb, as opposed to the 250-kilogram --

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Isailovic is on her feet.

20 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, before watching this

21 video, this video was disclosed to the Defence, but if the Prosecutor

22 could tell us what time the launch of this air bomb refers to, because I

23 don't believe this is relevant in this particular case.

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, give us some more information about the --

25 MR. WHITING: The -- it's the air bomb that -- the launching of

1 the air bomb in the video is -- I can't say when it is. It's during the

2 war, but that's not the issue that I'm showing it for. And our expert,

3 Mr. Zecivic, will talk about this video clip and talk about the launching

4 of the air bomb and identify what it is and so forth. There will be

5 further evidence about it later, but I'm showing it foro different

6 purpose.

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Which is what?

8 MR. WHITING: To show what it looks like and ask him whether such

9 a thing would be visible and how -- and to what area it -- if it were

10 launched from the location that we're discussing.

11 [Trial Chamber confers]

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Whiting, just explain the relevance.

13 MR. WHITING: Your Honour, it's -- the witness has testified that

14 this information that he received is that it was launched some 2 or 300

15 metres away from the parking lot. I would like to show a launch and have

16 him explain whether that would -- how visible that would be from that

17 location, whether it would be unusual to have seen it, or whether other

18 people would have seen it.

19 So it is directly relevant because he has talked about launch from

20 that location. We want to show what it looks like and how visible it

21 would. It seems to me that is absolutely on point.

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, he didn't see it.

23 MR. WHITING: No. No. He knows the location. He was at the

24 location, and he knows how far it was. He has testified how far it was,

25 and he knows how visible that location would be from that distance and he

1 knows the area. So it's -- it goes directly to how visible this would and

2 whether others would see this. And I don't see any -- I certainly don't

3 see any prejudice in showing it. If ultimately Your Honours conclude it's

4 not relevant, that's fine. But it seems me there is a sufficient basis to

5 show it.

6 JUDGE HARHOFF: The difficulty we have, Mr. Prosecutor, is that as

7 interesting as this might be, and I would certainly like to see the video,

8 the video has nothing to do with this witness. He didn't see it. He has

9 no idea where it could have come from. He didn't see the launch. He

10 didn't see the trajectory. The only thing he saw was that he had a short

11 glimpse of the impact. That is why I have difficulties in accepting that

12 in relation this witness this video is admissible.

13 MR. WHITING: Your Honour, this witness has been called because he

14 has information about somebody else who saw it. He was there at the

15 time. He knows the location that was identified as the launch point, and

16 he can testify whether -- whether, in his view, a lot of people in the

17 area would have seen this launch as it is depicted or whether it was not

18 unusual that only one person to his knowledge saw it.

19 So even though he himself did not see it, he was there. He is

20 familiar with the area, and he has talked about that.

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: But has he ever seen an air bomb in passage, in

22 flight?

23 MR. WHITING: It doesn't matter. The question is going to be --

24 It's not the trajectory; it's the launch. The question is going to be

25 would this have been visible -- this launch have been visible from that

1 location, from the PTT building or other areas. Would -- given what he

2 shows about the time and where it was launched from and who was around,

3 would he -- would others have seen it.

4 It's -- it seems to me impossible to bring a witness who is going

5 to testify about somebody having seen something and not test, be able it

6 test whether that was surprising that to his knowledge only one person saw

7 it. It's foreclosing my ability to test this evidence. And again, I

8 don't -- there is no certainly prejudice. At worst, we're going to end up

9 with evidence that you have ultimately deem is not relevant. But I don't

10 think -- it will take about two minutes to do this.

11 Ms. Isailovic.

12 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

13 I think that this raises another issue, because all the evidence

14 which are introduced before -- all the evidence which is introduced before

15 your Chamber will help you to determine which kind of device hit the

16 television building on that day in Bosnia-Herzegovina.

17 So I think that this is going a little bit too fast, and this is

18 not relevant to our case. And I think it would be wise to ask the expert

19 who is going be called to testify to spell this out in detail for us. But

20 here we have a fact witness who is testifying about something which is

21 quite specific, and to my mind this video has nothing to do with this

22 witness.

23 MR. WHITING: Your Honour, if I may just respond to that. There

24 is also evidence in the case that this -- the bomb hit was an air bomb,

25 and it was a 250-kilogram air bomb. So there is certainly a basis for

1 putting this question to the witness.

2 [Trial Chamber confers]

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: The Chamber's ruling is that the video is not to

4 be shown.

5 MR. WHITING: Could we look, please, at 65 ter exhibit 3094.

6 Q. Captain, do you recognise this photograph to be a view from the

7 PTT building parking lot, in fact, it's from the upper parking lot?

8 A. It is. It is.

9 Q. Do you recognise what is in the red square to be what was known as

10 OP4.

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And do you recognise that in the yellow box is roughly the area

13 where, according to the information that you say you received, the -- this

14 air bomb was launched from?

15 A. I think that's correct.

16 MR. WHITING: Could this be admitted into evidence, please.

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

18 THE REGISTRAR: As P518, Your Honours.

19 MR. WHITING:

20 Q. Would you accept, sir, that a launching of a missile or an air

21 bomb from that location would be highly visible.

22 A. It would be visible from the area, yes.

23 Q. Now, do you accept the possibility that the UNMO that you spoke to

24 made a mistake and did not see the air bomb launched from that location

25 but saw it fly over that location? Would you accept that possibility,

1 sir?

2 A. There is always a possibility. But from what he told me at the

3 moment and from going down to the place where he saw it, where he parked

4 the car, the car was parked closer to the wall that you see at the middle

5 of the picture. So when he went out from the car, he could easily look

6 into the area. Sorry. I also believe that the new building that you see

7 at the right of the picture is a new one that has been built after the

8 war.

9 Q. And just for the record, that building is -- the building just all

10 the way to the right, it's grey, red, and blue. Is that correct?

11 A. Yes, sir.

12 Q. Have you ever seen an air bomb being launched?

13 A. I have not seen the launch of it, but I have seen it when it is

14 flying in the air. But the report doesn't tell anything about -- or my

15 report doesn't tell anything about an air bomb.

16 Q. Right. I'm just going that you accept for a moment - I understand

17 that you yourself do not know what kind of a projectile it was - but it

18 is, to be fair, a rapid and unexpected event. Correct?

19 A. Say again, please.

20 Q. When an air bomb is launched, or let's say any bomb is

21 launched, -- no, let me put this differently.

22 The UNMO who provided you this information did not know in advance

23 that this bomb was going to be launched; correct.

24 A. That's correct. He reported to me that he parked the car with the

25 front pointing -- front of the car pointing in direction where you have

1 the yellow figure on the -- on the picture. When he was standing out and

2 went to close his door, the door of the car, he saw it launched. And

3 attached to the report you have filed here, there was also a sketch where

4 he tried to draw a sketch from the projectile that was fired.

5 Q. Do you know if he had ever seen an air bomb being launched before?

6 A. I don't know.

7 Q. And so I come back to my question: Since he didn't know it was

8 going to happen, it is a sudden unexpected event, he had never seen it

9 before, isn't it possible that he made a mistake when he said where it was

10 launched from and that in fact it just flew over that location?

11 A. There might always be a possibility that he makes mistake. As

12 UNMOs, we were supposed to report only what we had seen with our own eyes;

13 and if you look at all the reports that we had filed by UNMOs, from the

14 when I was an operation officer, I very often refused to report things

15 that people believe that had seen.

16 But this UNMO came to me and he was quite sure about what he had

17 seen. We questioned him several times from different angles to see if

18 there should be any mistakes about it, because he as well knew that this

19 was an important witness he had -- thing he been seeing. He was a Muslim

20 UNMO himself, so he knew that it could have important to -- it could be

21 important and it could have -- an effect on the situation.

22 Q. But, sir, you say that as UNMOs, you're trained to report what we

23 had seen with our own eyes, and you say this was important information.

24 But the UNMO who says he saw it did not in fact report it, did he?

25 A. He reported it himself, but he was not supposed.

1 Q. No. I'm going to interrupt you there for a moment, sir. He did

2 not write a report about this, did he?

3 A. The UNMOs were not supposed to write reports like this. They were

4 supposed to bring information in for the UNMO headquarters, and I'm an --

5 as an UNMO operation officer, I was supposed to write the reports.

6 Q. Sir, isn't it the case that he did not want to write the report

7 because he thought it was sensitive, and you offered to write the report

8 for him. Isn't that what happened?

9 A. That's correct.

10 Q. Okay. So he ordinarily would have written a report about

11 something like that but chose not to?

12 A. No. If he had been in his UNMO team, he could have been writing a

13 report that would have been sent into the UNMO headquarters and then I

14 would send the report for the headquarters in Zagreb and for the

15 headquarters in Bosnia. But always it would be me or one of my operation

16 officers who would write the report and not him.

17 MR. WHITING: I don't understand --

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: This is not very clear, because earlier you were

19 asked whether -- the UNMO did not want to write the report because he

20 thought it was sensitive and that you offered to write the report for him.

21 And you said that that was correct.

22 THE WITNESS: That's correct. If he had been in the UNMO team, he

23 would have been writing -- if he had been out in the team in the building

24 itself, he would have been writing a report, sending it in for the UNMO

25 headquarters, and then I would have been writing the final report that

1 would have been send to the headquarters for the UNMO in Zagreb.

2 In this case, when he came directly the parking place, he had

3 something to do in the building; and when parking the car, he saw this

4 missile rocket that was launched, so he came directly to my office. And

5 when we were discussing about this, he could have been writing the report

6 his own hand, but I still would have been the one to write the report to

7 send to Zagreb. And that is the report that you see in front of me -- or

8 in front of you.

9 Attached to the report, there is a sketch which he had been doing

10 himself and this was made by his hand and not by mine.

11 JUDGE HARHOFF: Captain, I believe the difficulty we have in fully

12 appreciating your testimony is that it is unclear to us why the UNMO

13 simply did not write a report. Under normal circumstances, he would have

14 been obliged to do so, wouldn't he? But I understand that you are saying

15 that he was not in case because he was not a member of any team that had

16 business to do in that area? Or how are we to understand your

17 explanation?

18 THE WITNESS: Sorry that I am unclear.

19 He was a member of a team coming into the PTT building where the

20 headquarters was. When he had been out in the team -- if he had been out

21 in a team or if he had returned to the team, then he was supposed to write

22 a report that should have been sent in to headquarters, where I was

23 sitting as an operation officer, and then I would be rewriting his report,

24 what we did all the time. The report we were sending for the headquarters

25 in Zagreb, they were sent by CapSat and not in a written form in a report

1 like you see it on paper here. So they were always been done by the

2 operation officers, and I was the operation officer in charge of the

3 operation officers.

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: When you say out in the team, do you mean that

5 were he out in the field.

6 THE WITNESS: He was normally out in the team. As you see, if you

7 take a look of the picture within the red square, that is one of the teams

8 that was placed on the inside of the Sector Sarajevo, on the BiH side.

9 And this UNMO was placed in one of those teams. If he hadn't had anything

10 to do in the PTT building, he would have returned to the team; and

11 together with the team leader, he would have been writing a report that

12 would have been sent in for the headquarters, the headquarters for UNMO

13 Sector Sarajevo; then I would have been writing the same report again and

14 sent it to the headquarters Zagreb.

15 Now, when he was in the PTT building, instead of sitting down that

16 he was writing a report, he was telling me; and if you look at the sketch

17 he has been doing, I have been using the same words as he has been using

18 in the sketch himself. So this is the sketch and report he has been doing

19 himself, and I was the one to send the Sector Sarajevo report to Zagreb.

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: So it's because he was in the PTT building --

21 THE WITNESS: Because he came in the PTT, yeah.

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: -- why he wasn't required to write a report.

23 THE WITNESS: Yes.

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Oh, I see.

25 MR. WHITING: I'm sorry, Captain, I'm going to have to press this

1 issue a bit more, because now I think you given two different explanations

2 for why he did not write a report.

3 You said, on the one hand, he did not write a report because it

4 was too sensitive, and he did not want to write a report, suggesting that

5 ordinarily he would have been required to write a report. And now, on the

6 other hand, you're suggesting it was simply because he was in the PTT

7 building, and it was a matter of convenience. Which of these explanations

8 is correct?

9 A. You can say that both them are correct, because he didn't want to

10 put his name in the report. We normally didn't put names in reports. As

11 you see, before there -- when teams were making investigations, they were

12 always put a name on the investigations, who carried out the

13 investigation. In this case, we decided not to put his name on --

14 Q. Well, now, the report -- you did not sit there in the PTT building

15 and write this report, did you? You didn't write the report until the

16 next day.

17 A. That's not correct.

18 Q. Well, look at the date on the report.

19 A. Yeah.

20 Q. The date on the report is the 29th of June at 12.30 in the

21 afternoon.

22 A. And then there would be another report as well.

23 Q. No, I'm sorry, this report that you wrote?

24 A. Yeah.

25 Q. You wrote the following day, right?

1 A. That's correct.

2 Q. Okay. So you -- when you say he came into the PTT building and you

3 could just write the report, you did not write the report that day.

4 A. But there was then another report written the same day for sure.

5 Q. I'm sorry. If there was a report written on the 28th of June, why

6 would you have to write this report the following day with the exact same

7 information in it?

8 A. Because there was a daily report that was sent every day before

9 1800 in the evening, and then an update of the daily report every day at

10 2400 hours. And this one, as it is written, the subject is "Special

11 report under impact on the TV building," but there would be -- in the

12 files there would be a report on what has happened as well.

13 Q. Captain, are you sure about this information or are you just kind

14 of --

15 A. I'm sure.

16 Q. Okay.

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, Just to clarify, so there is in existence

18 on the file, a report which is part of the daily reports for the 28th on

19 this incident.

20 THE WITNESS: There would will be, yeah.

21 MR. WHITING:

22 Q. This special report makes no reference to that. It does not say

23 it is an update or that this information has already been provided, does

24 it?

25 A. That's correct.

1 Q. Why not?

2 A. Because that was not supposed to be like that.

3 Q. Well, wouldn't -- if somebody is reading this report, wouldn't you

4 want to indicate that this information has already been the subject of a

5 previous report? Wouldn't that be important?

6 A. It wasn't done that way, and I think that at that time people

7 understood what we had been reporting.

8 Q. Now, you say that you chose not to include the name of the UNMO.

9 Isn't that important information that should be included in the report?

10 A. Not necessarily.

11 Q. Well, why not?

12 A. Because as reporting, as an UNMO, it's not a question of the name

13 of the UNMO, but it's a report from an UNMO.

14 Q. Sir, just a few minutes ago, you told us how you were trained as

15 UNMOs that were trained to report what had you seen, that this was

16 important information. How is it possible that it would not important

17 who saw it. How is that possible?

18 A. Because at the time we knew the UNMO who he was, and it's still

19 possible to find him again.

20 Q. Well, isn't that, in fact, not clear since you couldn't remember

21 and you are still not certain who the UNMO is?

22 A. That's correct.

23 Q. And isn't it true that you chose not to put his name in.

24 Ordinarily you would put his name in, but you chose not to in this case.

25 Isn't that true?

1 A. That's correct. But it's not ordinary to put a name in the

2 report.

3 Q. Aside from the report that you now say you wrote on the 28th of

4 June, did you tell any body on the 28th of June that you had gotten this

5 information?

6 A. It was not a secret to anyone because the UNMO came into the

7 operation room --

8 Q. No, I'm sorry. I want to interrupt for a moment. Please, focus

9 on my question. Did you tell anyone on the 28th of June, putting aside

10 the report you now say that you wrote, did you tell anybody on the 28th of

11 June about this information?

12 A. I'm quite sure that we did not tell anyone about it.

13 Q. Now, let's look for a few moments at the report, and I'm going

14 to -- do you know anything about air bombs.

15 A. Not specific.

16 Q. Okay. Do you -- are I aware -- you give the dimensions that the

17 UNMO claims the bomb was. Are you aware that a -- that a 250-kilogram air

18 bomb is approximately one and a half times wider and three times longer

19 than those dimensions? Is that something that you're aware of?

20 A. I have seen that the air bombs, the other ones passing the PTT

21 building, I have seen them flying in the air, and I have seen the impact

22 of them.

23 Q. And so you are aware of this a 250-kilogram air bomb is much

24 larger than the dimensions that are provided in this report?

25 A. I think so, yes?

1 Q. Are you aware that when an air bomb is launched, there is a smoke

2 trail from the rockets and that the smoke trail stops when the rockets run

3 out of fuel, and then the air bomb descends and lands on its target?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. So you say here that the UNMO observed no smoke. There was no

6 smoke observed while Selos [phoen] trajectory object was in flight. Based

7 on your experience, wouldn't that indicate to that you the rockets had run

8 out of fuel already when the UNMO saw it, and it was already heading

9 toward its target?

10 A. The UNMO didn't report about an bomb. He reported about a missile

11 or a --

12 Q. I'm sorry. Accept for a moment that it's an air bomb. If it were

13 an air bomb - accept that for a moment - then wouldn't this information,

14 based on your experience, suggest that the -- that the air bomb had

15 already -- the fuel from the rockets had already run out, and it was

16 heading -- it is descending toward its target?

17 A. I'm not supposed as an UNMO, I think now, to -- to think about if

18 it as an air bomb or significant. I was at the time only supposed to

19 report what the UNMOs reported to me, and that's what I'm do.

20 Q. I'm asking you not as an UNMO; I'm asking you as a witness to this

21 event and based on the information that you received and your

22 understanding of how these worked. Accept that it ask an air bomb, then

23 the information that you received would suggest that the rockets had

24 already run out of fuel at the time he saw it, since did he not see any

25 smoke. Correct?

1 A. I'm not quite sure about why you're asking. I mean, if it's an

2 air bomb, or a rocket that has been run out of fuel, then of course there

3 would be no smoke.

4 Q. Okay. Thank you. You say on page 2 of your report that -- it's

5 the second-to-last paragraph. You say that the UNMO team at OP4 was

6 taking shelter at the time. It did not see anything. That is not true,

7 is it? That information is not true?

8 A. If I have been writing it here, then I believe it is true.

9 Q. Well, where did you get that information?

10 A. From the OP4.

11 Q. Who in OP4?

12 A. The people present at OP4. We, of course --

13 Q. Can you tell us a name?

14 A. No, I can't tell any names.

15 Q. In fact, sir, isn't it true, that -- were you familiar with

16 Mr. Brennskag, Per Brennskag?

17 A. I remember his name, yeah.

18 Q. Do you know that, in fact, he was at OP4 on that day, and he

19 observed this very air bomb?

20 A. No, I'm not sure. Because when I had within writing it here, then

21 I have reason to believe that we have contacted OP4 and questioned them

22 about if they had observed anything, because they should have been able to

23 see down in the area as you point out yourself. So when I have been

24 writing it here, then I have only reason to believe that they didn't see

25 anything at the movement when it was launched.

1 Q. But you can't tell us who you talked to?

2 A. No, I can't.

3 Q. When did you talk to that person?

4 A. Right after when we did the investigation and before filing the

5 report.

6 Q. You agree with me, don't you, that from OP4 you could see this

7 location perfectly?

8 A. Yes.

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: May I just ask, Captain, in your report, you say

10 that OP4 was taking cover in the shelter at that time because of shelling

11 at the time of the incident.

12 How did you get that information?

13 THE WITNESS: That I got by radio contact to the team, by calling

14 them in. I don't remember at the moment, but I am sure I would never have

15 been writing anything in the report if it was not a fact. So -- to make

16 the investigation -- to finish the investigation, it was important for us

17 to clarify if anyone else had seen something similar.

18 And as I write in the report, a FreBat soldier -- the UNMO

19 reported to us that a FreBat soldier was close to him in the parking lot.

20 We were not able to find him and, therefore, didn't get in the further

21 information from him. So I don't remember this part of the report. But

22 I'm sure now when seeing it that I would never have been writing it

23 without having taking contact with the team in OP4.

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: And was the radio contact made by you personally

25 or by somebody else and then the information passed on to you.

1 THE WITNESS: When I say "radio contact," I'm quite sure that we

2 would not have been talking about something like this on radio. So I

3 would have probably called in the team to the OP room and have been

4 talking personally to the people about this case. But I don't remember,

5 so it could have been on radio. So it's most unlikely that we have been

6 making this on radio, so probably it would had been called in.

7 [Trial Chamber confers]

8 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you, Captain.

9 When would you have been able to see someone from OP4 in your

10 office? Would that be later that same day, or would it be the day after?

11 THE WITNESS: It would probably have been the same day. I'm quite

12 sure it had been the same day.

13 The reason for, when I'm asked if it's most unlikely that other

14 people, why they hadn't seen it. At the time, there was outgoing shelling

15 from the BiH side and there was a lot of incoming shelling from the --

16 from the other side. So that was -- that was the reason for people, of

17 course, to take cover in shelters and could have been the reason why there

18 wasn't any other witnesses.

19 MR. WHITING: Thank you, Your Honour.

20 Q. If the information from OP4 was in fact the air bomb had been

21 observed, the air bomb that hit the TV tower had been observed that day,

22 would you accept that your report could be inaccurate, could be mistaken?

23 A. I don't remember that part of it, as I told earlier. So if could

24 you bring in an UNMO that now can tell that he has been observing at the

25 time, it would be most -- I would be very surprised about that, because

1 I'm sure about all the reports I have been writing from the mission that I

2 would never been writing anything without being 100 per cent sure.

3 That is what I was teaching the UNMOs, that we should never report

4 anything that we were not 100 per cent sure about. So when writing that

5 they were in shelter, I'm sure that someone from OP4 had been reporting to

6 me that they were in shelter at that time.

7 Q. But none of that information is included in the report, is it?

8 A. What? What --

9 Q. None of the information about how you spoke to, when you spoke to,

10 how you spoke to them, none of that is in the report, is it?

11 A. That is correct, because we didn't put names in the reports.

12 Q. Is there any information that is in this report dated the 29th of

13 June that was not included, that you didn't know on the 28th of June that

14 would have -- in other words, what is new about this report and what is

15 the reason for writing it, if you knew all of this information on the 28th

16 of June?

17 A. I have no idea why it's written on the 29th. It's probably

18 because I have been questioned to write a new report about this, because I

19 knew that this information was sent on the -- as I remember the situation,

20 when I reported this, I sent it by secure means by CapSat. It was sent to

21 Sector Sarajevo, the headquarter for the whole UN troops. It was sent for

22 the headquarter for the Bosnia UN, and it was sent for UN Zagreb.

23 About 20 minutes after I sent this report, I was called on

24 telephone and I was told to forget about this report. I was told that I

25 couldn't forget it because I had sent it already by secure means to the

1 three officers that I was supposed to send it. And after another 20

2 minutes, I was then called again and was told that I should just forget

3 about this report and everything has been settled.

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Are you going to follow this up, Mr. Whiting?

5 MR. WHITING: I was going to, yes.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, go ahead.

7 MR. WHITING:

8 Q. Did you just remember this, what you just told us?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Is this something that you just remembered?

11 A. No, have I remembered it all the time since it happened.

12 Q. Twenty minutes after you sent the report on the 29th of June or

13 the report on the 28th of June?

14 A. I'm quite sure it was on the 28th I was told not to do anything

15 more about this and not to -- to give the information to anyone else.

16 Q. Sir, were you interviewed by an ICTY investigator in this case, if

17 I can find your interview, on the 8th or 9th of September -- the 8th and

18 9th of September, 1995?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Did you say anything about what you have just told us about being

21 told 20 minutes after you sent the report to forget about the report?

22 A. No.

23 THE INTERPRETER: Could you please speak a little by the closer to

24 the microphone because we can't here you.

25 THE WITNESS: Yes.

1 MR. WHITING:

2 Q. I'm going to ask --

3 [Prosecution counsel confer]

4 MR. WHITING: Could we look at 65 ter 3087, please, and if we

5 could look at --

6 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, if I may, it's D72.

7 This is Exhibit D72. It's already been given a number.

8 MR. WHITING: Thank you. I'm grateful.

9 Q. Sir, you don't have it in front of you -- or you might, you might.

10 I'm not sure if I have it or not, but it's on the screen now.

11 And if you could look at page 3 there, in the middle of the page,

12 it says: "I investigated among all the other shellings also an impact on

13 the TV building."

14 Now, first of all, you told us earlier that you had not

15 investigated it.

16 A. That's correct.

17 Q. So why did you say in this statement that you did investigate it?

18 A. I might have been using the wrong words about it.

19 Q. Well, in the next paragraph, you say: "At that time, we could not

20 find any fragments or parts of the projectile that hit the building."

21 So that indicates that you participated in the investigation or

22 were aware of it, doesn't it?

23 A. I have to see. That's correct.

24 Q. It doesn't say anything -- you speak about the UNMO, but it didn't

25 say anything about this information that you have now provided today, that

1 you were told 20 minutes -- it doesn't say anything about being told 20

2 minutes after filing a report to forget about this. There is nothing

3 about that in here, is there?

4 A. I was not asked about it.

5 Q. Well, don't you think that was important information? If you were

6 told 20 minutes after writing a report to forget about it, don't you think

7 that was something important that should have been told?

8 A. I was still in the UN mission so I didn't think about it as

9 important information for those investigations at that time.

10 Q. In your recent conversations with Barry Hogan, the investigator

11 from the OTP, you also did not mention this information, did you?

12 A. That's correct.

13 Q. Why not?

14 A. I was not asked about it, and I didn't see it as important

15 information for him.

16 Q. Captain, are you just making up answers as you go along here

17 today?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Are you sure?

20 A. Yes.

21 MR. WHITING: Could we look, please, as a series of reports, and I

22 think you probably have them in front of you, but I have copies. It's

23 R 0025651 to 5663, and this is 65 ter 3088.

24 Q. Captain, you have had an opportunity to read over these reports,

25 correct?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And do they accurately set out the details of the conflict that

3 you had with the ABiH liaison office on that day?

4 A. It does, yeah.

5 Q. Could you turn to the page that is marked -- has the last four

6 digits 5654 on the top. It's dated the 28th of June, 1995. It's a patrol

7 report. Was that report written by you?

8 A. That's written by me, yeah.

9 Q. Could you look, sort of -- the sixth paragraph you say, it starts

10 off: "When I came back from the investigation."

11 Doesn't that again suggest that you were present or involved in

12 the investigation in the TV tower?

13 A. It says that I came back from a patrol that was supposed to be an

14 investigation. We called everything as we drove out as either an

15 observation or an investigation And I was supposed to go out for an

16 investigation.

17 Q. Now, Captain, is it fair to say that when after you received the

18 information from the UNMO, you went to the ABiH liaison office and is it

19 fair to say that Captain Nermin there believed that you said that the ABiH

20 had fired the air bomb or fired the bomb on the TV tower that's what he

21 thought you said, right?

22 A. That's right .

23 Q. And you deny saying that?

24 A. Yes. And I still recall what I said when I went to his office.

25 Q. But, in fact, when you went to his office that is exactly what you

1 believed that is correct the ABiH had fired the bomb, right?

2 A. Yes. But I have been learned myself and thought the other UNMOs

3 to be impartial, so when I went to the office and asked them to stop

4 firing for one hour. That has happened very often in the past that we

5 succeeded in that. I asked him to stop the fire and he said that we

6 should ask the -- the Serbian side, the Bosnian Serb side to stop the

7 firing.

8 And I said, "You were firing from both side, and you will have to

9 stop the fire or we will ask to you stop the fire." And in this case with

10 the TV building, he misunderstood me when going down there and he asked me

11 if I believed that there had been firing themselves. And I said I have no

12 reason to believe anything before we have carried the out the

13 investigation.

14 Q. So let me just get it clear here. You went in there believing

15 that the ABiH had fired the bomb. He believes that that is what you said,

16 but you still deny that you said anything like that?

17 A. I didn't use that -- I didn't use those words.

18 Q. And in your report here that you wrote on the 28th of June, 1995,

19 there's no mention of this unnamed UNMO and what he reported to you, is

20 there?

21 A. No.

22 MR. WHITING: Could these documents be admitted into evidence,

23 please, Your Honour.

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

25 MR. WHITING: I just have a couple of more questions. Sir, are

1 you aware -- oh I'm sorry.

2 THE REGISTRAR: Just to be clear, this is 65 ter, 03088. This

3 will be Exhibit P519.

4 [Trial Chamber confers]

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, just before you leave that issue, would you

6 tell us, Captain, who was it that told you 20 minutes after you wrote the

7 report that you should forget about it?

8 THE WITNESS: I don't remember his name or rank or function. But

9 I was called from someone in the headquarters for the UNMOs in Zagreb, the

10 overall headquarters for the UNMOs, that I should forget about this

11 report.

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: All right.

13 THE WITNESS: I told this person that I, of course, couldn't

14 forget about the report because it was already sent to three different

15 offices; and then after another 20 minutes - I remember it as 20 minutes -

16 but a short period, I was called again --

17 JUDGE HARHOFF: By the same person.

18 THE WITNESS: I believe it was the same person, and I have no

19 reason not to believe it. And, of course, I knew the person, so I knew

20 when he was calling me that, that was what I had to do. It was an order

21 and, as I said, after another 20 minutes, I was called again and said that

22 the case has been settled, and we should just forget about this report.

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: The person calling you, you say you don't

24 remember his name, but what about his rank?

25 THE WITNESS: No. It was for sure been a superior to me in the

1 way that maybe not in rank, because when working as an UNMO the rank

2 doesn't matter. You can have a high function as a captain or you can have

3 a high rank and has a -- be working as a team member. So, he was for sure

4 one of my superiors or one of those people working in headquarters to whom

5 I have to -- to listen to when --

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: And you -- you understood this to be an order.

7 THE WITNESS: I understand that to be an order, yes, sir.

8 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thanks, Captain.

9 Now, this took place -- the two phone calls that you did receive

10 from Zagreb, they took place on the 28th of June, if I understand you

11 correctly.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm quite sure it was on the 28th,

13 because it was a short time after all this happened.

14 JUDGE HARHOFF: Now the day after, on the 29th, you did proceed to

15 file a report. That was the report that we saw just a while ago.

16 THE WITNESS: Yeah, that was a detailed report but it has to be in

17 the report on the 28th as well. You -- if you find my reports on the 28th

18 or from the OP room, from Sector Sarajevo, you will for sure find details

19 as well about this incident.

20 JUDGE HARHOFF: Yes. We did have -- we do have your report of the

21 28th of June, and we also have seen your report from the following day on

22 the 29th. And my question is: If you were told to forget about the whole

23 thing on the 28th, then why didn't you just forget about the whole thing?

24 I mean, the difficulty I have is that did you not forget about the whole

25 thing. You actually did proceed, and on the following day you did file

1 your final report.

2 THE WITNESS: It's a long time ago, so I might forget the timings

3 of this. So when I received this order about forgetting it, it might have

4 been after reporting this special report. But what I'm saying is that

5 there would for sure would be details about the incident in the report

6 from the 28th. So it might have been that the timing of this.

7 What has happened is that I was ordered to forget about the case

8 on the 29th; but as all those things happened, things they happened very

9 fast. I'm quite sure that there must be a report, a similar report like

10 this on the 28th that has been filed; and after that report, I have been

11 told to forget about it. Because on the 29th, for me it would have been

12 too late.

13 I still remember when all this happened, the rumours about the

14 incident run around in PTT building, the headquarters, Sector Sarajevo.

15 It was running around; and a short time after the incident, people came to

16 the office and asked if this was correct that an UNMO had seen a

17 projectile fired from the BiH side.

18 JUDGE HARHOFF: Just to clarify, we do have both of your reports;

19 the one from the 28th and also the one from the 29th.

20 THE WITNESS: Of course.

21 JUDGE HARHOFF: And it's in our files. So what you're saying now

22 is that --

23 MR. WHITING: Your Honour, I really hate to interrupt, but I'm not

24 sure that the report from the 28th is the type of report that he is

25 referring to. I think the report from the 28th pertains to a specific

1 matter and is not a daily situation report or a daily report. I'm not

2 aware that we have the report from the 28th that he is referring to.

3 JUDGE HARHOFF: Okay. Well, this clarifies one of the matters.

4 May I just have one last question put to you, Captain Hansen, and

5 that is that on the reports, your special report. You say that an UNMO

6 coming into the PTT building, parking his car on the lower parking place

7 observed the following. My question relates to the word "the lower

8 parking place," because from the picture that we saw just a while ago, I

9 think it was Exhibit P518, it seemed to me that that picture was taken

10 from the top of the parking place --

11 THE WITNESS: Yeah.

12 JUDGE HARHOFF: -- where obviously your view would have been much

13 better than had you parked your car on the lower.

14 THE WITNESS: Yeah. I'm sure when writing the report I have to

15 stick to the report that I have been writing; and when we at the time had

16 been writing on the lower parking place, then for sure he has been coming

17 into the lower parking place and parked his car there.

18 Now, when the Prosecutor showed me the picture from the -- the

19 upper parking place, that was then was what was in my mind. But by

20 reading the report, I'm 100 percent sure that the UNMO has been coming

21 into the lower parking place, and that is the place from where he has seen

22 the projectile being fired.

23 JUDGE HARHOFF: But can I just ask you again: You said that you

24 went with him back to the parking place --

25 THE WITNESS: Yes.

1 JUDGE HARHOFF: -- for him to show you what he had seen.

2 THE WITNESS: Yes.

3 JUDGE HARHOFF: And do you remember whether, when you went with

4 him --

5 THE WITNESS: I did.

6 JUDGE HARHOFF: -- did you go to the lower parking place or the

7 top one.

8 THE WITNESS: We went to his car because his car was still parked

9 outside. He came into the building, parked his car. For some reason, he

10 had something to do in the building. I don't know if it was to visit me

11 or to do other business in the building. So when he came to report this,

12 we immediately went down to his car to observe from his car, and he could

13 point out from the direction from where this was fired.

14 JUDGE HARHOFF: And could you see the presumed origin of fire from

15 the lower parking place?

16 THE WITNESS: I could see the place he was pointing at.

17 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you.

18 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Captain, please, I have another

19 question, and I'd like to come back to your attitude because I don't

20 understand it from well. What you did after you got from the phone call

21 you got from Zagreb.

22 You said that as an UNMO you were determined to report only on

23 what had you seen yourself and not what on which you had been told about,

24 which is fine. But when you wrote your first report on June 28, one of

25 your superior in Zagreb, that had not seen anything because he was in

1 Zagreb, told you to drop the whole thing, and you want to only do and see

2 what -- only report on what you have seen on the terrain. So on June 29,

3 you rewrote your report maintaining what you had stated the day before.

4 But what is really striking here is when the ICTY investigators

5 interviewed you on June 8 and 9, a few months later, you do not mention

6 this phone call from Zagreb, which I believe is totally contrary to what

7 an UNMO should do, because normally an UNMO in his conscience should

8 report what he had seen. So how can you explain the fact that you had

9 been so silent about this phone call up until now? Is it because you were

10 afraid of your superiors, or because you believe that your report was

11 wrong?

12 THE WITNESS: I have no reason to believe that my report is wrong.

13 When I say that UNMOs are to report what they see and the facts they see,

14 it is also means that when you are the operation officer, you have to

15 believe notice UNMOs that is working as UNMOs. So whatever they report to

16 you, you'll have to write and believe in it.

17 About not telling about those phone calls to the investigators,

18 that was not a question that was coming up when they questioned me and I

19 was still working in the UN mission, so I was not thinking about to report

20 it or to inform them about those phone calls.

21 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Was it -- did it happen often that

22 a superior would ask you to modify reports that had been the written by

23 you, taking into account what you had seen on the field?

24 THE WITNESS: Never.

25 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] So this incident with your

1 superior, that was something really serious. Don't you think that you

2 should have notified it to the authorities to make sure that the UN was

3 running properly?

4 THE WITNESS: I still remember the situation, and I was, of

5 course, shocked. I believe from the beginning when I started in the UN

6 mission that the -- as the UN to be the highest authority. And I did my

7 best in the whole mission and I was later on serving in Kashmir for one

8 year, also as an operation officer and also had high postings.

9 I was, of course, shocked when this happened, and I still remember

10 that all the UNMOs we were sure about that now that it was an UNMO

11 observed that it was fired from the BiH side. And a day after the UN

12 spokesman, Gary Coward, I went down to the press conference that he made,

13 he was informing the press that this was -- this incident was done by the

14 Bosnian Serb side, although the UNMOs had reported different.

15 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Thank you, Witness.

16 MR. WHITING: I just have a few more questions.

17 Q. Captain, are you aware that -- did you know who General Meille was

18 at the time?

19 A. No, sir.

20 Q. You didn't know that he was the acting sector commander of

21 UNPROFOR in Sarajevo?

22 A. General Meille?

23 Q. Meille, M-E-I-L-L-E, Frenchman.

24 A. Yes, I knew him.

25 Q. Are you aware that on the 30th of June he sent a letter to the

1 accused in this case, the commander of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps,

2 protesting the firing of the air bomb by the Bosnian Serb side that hit

3 the TV tower? In other words, he concluded that it was fired from the

4 Serb side; did you know that?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Did you ever learn on the 30th of June --

7 MR. WHITING: That's Exhibit P103, Your Honours.

8 MR. WHITING:

9 Q. Did you know that on the 30th of June, 1995, the accused in this

10 case, the commander of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps at the time, sent a

11 report in which he said that the Bosnian Serb forces had hit the TV

12 building on the 28th of June, 1995? Did you ever hear that?

13 A. I heard that from one of your assistants when calling me.

14 Q. Did you hear it at the time?

15 A. No.

16 Q. Does that information cause you to think that perhaps the UNMO

17 that provided you this information had been mistaken, since the commander

18 of the SRK himself was saying on the 30th of June that they had hit the TV

19 tower?

20 A. When I got the information, when you called me, I believe it was

21 one of your assistants that called me in Denmark, that, of course, caused

22 me to think if there should be anything wrong in the report. But when

23 writing the report, when questioning the UNMO, and at that time, still

24 I -- I believe that what we were writing in the report was fully correct.

25 We were aware that it -- it could have -- as I said earlier, it could have

1 a big impact on the situation if this was known, but still we had all

2 reasons to believe that the report was correct and the UNMO what he saw

3 was correct.

4 Q. You've -- my final question: You have suggested -- you have

5 indicated there was lot of discussion about this in the days that followed

6 about this rumour, about this information that it had been fired from the

7 BiH side. Did you ever learn, hear of anyone else who says that he or she

8 saw it fired from that location?

9 A. You mean this particular one?

10 Q. Right. Did you ever learn of anyone else who said, Yes, I also

11 saw it fired from that location, or I saw a launcher truck at that

12 location? Did you ever hear of anyone else --

13 A. If I had ever heard anything like that, I would have reported it.

14 Q. Did you report it?

15 A. No. I didn't hear from anyone that they have seen this missile,

16 rocket was fired.

17 Q. Okay.

18 MR. WHITING: I have no further questions. Thank you.

19 One matter. I'm not sure if the original report which we have

20 been talking about, which is 65 ter 536, I don't know if that is in

21 evidence under a different number. If it is not, I think it certainly

22 should be in evidence. The report of the 29th of June.

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: I will ask the court deputy if he can help us.

24 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, it's D103, and we

25 also have the drawing in D103. We have an additional piece of paper which

1 is the drawing made by the UNMO.

2 Now, for the 65 ter list 536, we have an additional piece of paper

3 that is the drawing.

4 MR. WHITING: That's fine. If it is already in evidence, then

5 there is no need to move it into evidence.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: We'll take the break now.

7 --- Recess taken at 10.32 a.m.

8 --- On resuming at 10.57 a.m.

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Whiting.

10 MR. WHITING: Your Honour, I'm finished, but I do have an

11 administrative matter which I have already mentioned to the Defence.

12 D72 is the statement of the witness. For some reasons that

13 version is in evidence is unsigned. We have a signed version and the

14 parties both agree to substitute the signed version for the unsigned

15 version.

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Very well.

17 MR. WHITING: We'll arrange with the registrar to do that.

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Isailovic.

19 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

20 I just have a question of a technical nature. Could we increase

21 the temperature in the courtroom because I'm beginning to get very cold.

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: I will ask the court deputy to look into that

23 Cross-examination by Ms. Isailovic:

24 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, witness. My name is Branislava

25 Isailovic. I am defending the Dragomir Milosevic, and I'm a lawyer

1 working for the Paris Bar Association.

2 I'm going to put you a few questions regarding some of the matters

3 that were addressed by the Prosecutor this morning.

4 Now, to begin with, I would like to ask you a few questions

5 about the reporting procedure which is established by UNMO and according

6 to certain rules. Could you tell the Chamber, and could you tell us all,

7 what is the purpose of these observation posts, like OP4 that you

8 mentioned? What role do they play?

9 A. The observation post was supposed to report about shelling

10 incidents, movements from troops on both sides, and report what they saw

11 and not what they believed.

12 Q. If I have understood you correctly, all the observation posts were

13 staffed by several UNMOs; is that correct?

14 A. I don't understand the word "staffed."

15 Q. There were several people that were members of a team that was at

16 the observation post; is that how things happened?

17 A. That's correct. The observation post, as it's called here, was

18 not only observation post, it was a team site. From one of the teams, as

19 you could see in the picture, it's on top of one of the mountains, and it

20 was then as well a good observation post to look into the city of

21 Sarajevo, or part of it, and from there to report what they could see.

22 Your question about several UNMOs, in every UNMO team, which this

23 was an UNMO team, there was always several UNMOs in -- in a team that

24 could be in the UN mission in the former Yugoslavia. It could be all from

25 three UNMOs and up to 18, 20 UNMOs in a team. In this particular team, I

1 believe, as I remember, there was six, seven UNMOs, but some of them would

2 then be on leave. That meant that at all times there would be five, six

3 UNMOs. Some could then be on patrol. They could be somewhere else. I

4 believe that at all times, because it was a good observation post as well,

5 there would always be at least be two UNMOs present at the team site.

6 Q. And if I understand you correctly, the other members, with the

7 exception of these two UNMOs that remained at all times on the observation

8 post, were part of the teams that were conducting the investigations in

9 Sarajevo and around Sarajevo. Is that correct?

10 A. It's correct that the UNMOs they were taking or carrying out

11 investigation, or it could also be liaison to the parts. When the team

12 was placed on the BiH side, then liaison would be the BiH; or if it is a

13 team on the Bosnian Serb side, then it would be liaison to that side.

14 They were to carry out investigation, observations as well, in the

15 way that they were to observe if there were any troop movements, if the

16 confrontation line was moving - the cease-fire line, was the correct

17 name - if there were any movements in that one, there could be reports

18 from either the Bosnian Serb side or the BiH side. But now the other part

19 had moved the confrontation line, or they had on this line that was agreed

20 to keep this line, that one of the parts had gone on further, that they

21 were supposed to be.

22 As far I remember, I believe that there always two observers at

23 the team site because it was a good place for observation. But you must

24 not understand me the way that -- that I'm 100 per cent sure that there

25 was always two UNMOs present at the team site. And as I'm writing in the

1 report, it's -- we took contact -- I have all reason to believe that we

2 took contact to the UNMOs present at the team site. And as I have

3 reported, they were taking shelter at the time when the incident happened.

4 Q. Mr. Hansen, I'm asking you these questions -- to begin with, these

5 are questions of a general nature. I would like to know what your job was

6 all about. What was your exact position in Sarajevo?

7 A. You mean my own position or the UNMO position?

8 Q. I'm talking about you specifically, your job.

9 A. My specific job was to be the operation officer. There was 80

10 military observers, UN Military Observers in Sector Sarajevo. Above me,

11 there was the -- the sector chief for the UNMOs and there was a deputy,

12 and then I was the operation officer. I was -- I was the one to -- to

13 make the planning for who was to make which investigations, or the overall

14 planning for the UNMOs; and then in the team, there would be a team leader

15 that then would delegate the -- sorry.

16 Q. Can you tell me what was the name of your superior at the UNMO

17 headquarters in Sarajevo, please? Was it perhaps Major Sundquest?

18 A. No. He was the deputy for the -- for the UNMO for the whole of

19 Bosnia. There was -- the organisation of the UNMOs was that there was a

20 headquarters for the overall former Yugoslavia and that headquarters was

21 placed in Zagreb; then there was -- there was the headquarters for the

22 UNMOs in overall Bosnia, and that was Major Sundquest. He was the deputy

23 in command of the overall for Bosnia; and then in Bosnia, you have

24 different sectors, and one of the sectors was Sarajevo. The only thing is

25 that Major Sundquest, he was then -- the overall headquarters for Bosnian

1 was placed in Sarajevo as well, but we were two different headquarters.

2 Q. And what about you? You were part of the Sarajevo headquarters;

3 is that right?

4 A. Sector Sarajevo.

5 Q. Was your superior Tarik Alam [phoen] perhaps?

6 A. I don't remember at the time. I know that -- if you mean -- in

7 report here, I can see that Colonel Alam was the DSMO. He was the deputy

8 sector military observer. And so I believe at the time of the report, the

9 SMO, the sector military observer, he was not present, the senior -- he

10 was not present, so the Lieutenant-Colonel Alam, as far as I remember, he

11 was from Bangladesh. He was working as the sector senior and my superior.

12 Q. Now, how did the reporting procedure work? Now, to conduct

13 investigations, you always used the reports which were filed by the UNMOs,

14 and these were sent to the headquarters in Sarajevo and then the Sarajevo

15 headquarters reported back to Zagreb. Is that how the reporting procedure

16 worked?

17 A. That's correct.

18 Q. And, for instance, people that were posted at OP4 Vikovac, we

19 mentioned this observation post, now, according to the regular procedure,

20 did things happen this way? In the event that somebody saw something, the

21 people there drafted a report or called you up via radio, and they called

22 you up in the headquarters in Sarajevo; is that how things worked?

23 A. It worked the way if it was normal observations. If it was

24 incoming or outgoing shells, they would just report by radio. That was

25 the normal way of reporting it, if they saw something. It was only when

1 they made investigations they made a report, a written report which they

2 brought into -- to my office; and then from that report, we would report

3 further on to headquarters Zagreb.

4 Q. When you mentioned incoming and outgoing shots, who wrote down

5 what was heard on the radio? Was this written down somewhere at the

6 headquarters and at the PTT building?

7 A. At the operation office, we had four operation officers that was

8 monitoring the radio at all times from the UNMO, and they writing down the

9 report. So by the end of the day, we had a full report of what was

10 happening in the sector, and that was the report that I was then to

11 finalise and send to Zagreb.

12 Q. So your report, let's call it your final report, the one which was

13 drafted at the end of the day, was this a half daily report or a daily

14 report which was sent off to Zagreb?

15 A. That was a report by the end of the day, it was to be sent at 1800

16 hours and then we continued. It was 24 hours duty at the OP room; and by

17 2400 hours, we sent the final report for the day or the update of the

18 report. Most of the things they had until 1800 hours.

19 Q. Therefore, there was just a single report that described

20 everything that had happened during the day, the previous day, and the

21 report focussed on everything that had occurred from the day before at

22 1800 hours until the day when it was sent at 1200 hours?

23 A. No. The report that was sent at 1800 hours reported about things

24 that happened from 000 hours, from midnight, until 1800 hours, and then a

25 update of a report was sent by midnight from what happened from 1800 hours

1 to 2400 hours.

2 Q. In other words, you always had two reports which bore the same

3 date; is that right?

4 A. That's correct.

5 Q. Now, anything that had been reported over the radio was -- had

6 been written down somewhere by these operators that were operating in the

7 OP room 24 hours a day; is that right?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And after that, you drafted your report on the basis of the

10 information or the data that had been written down over a particular

11 period by these operators; is that right?

12 A. That's correct. They were writing it down immediately, and they

13 started that there was a continuously report going on. So it meant by the

14 end of the day, by 1800 hours, as operation officer, I only had to

15 finalise this report. They had started on it. So what they were

16 reporting was, for example, the incoming shell, they were counting that

17 now there had been -- from this grid reference there had been outgoing

18 shells, and some other UNMOs they could then report that approximately the

19 tame time there had been incoming -- incoming rounds.

20 And that was reported by the operation officers that was taking

21 care of the radio room. They were putting that into a report that had to

22 be finalised by me at 1800 hours.

23 Q. Mr. Hansen, what relationship was there between UNMO and UNPROFOR

24 at the time, I mean the UNPROFOR battalions? What kind of reporting

25 procedures was between the two?

1 A. The relation was extremely good in the way that the -- the Sector

2 Sarajevo for the UNPROFOR, the headquarter was -- or the operation room

3 was next to the operation room from the UNMOs. So it meant that whenever

4 things happened we went to the office from each other so we could inform

5 what was going on, and they also received the report that I filed. And I

6 was -- when I was present at the PTT building, I was always present when

7 the -- when there was an operation report from the Sector Sarajevo

8 UNPROFOR.

9 Q. What kind of relationship did you have to the local police. I'm

10 going to ask you a number of questions here. We addressed a report

11 introduced by the Prosecutor relating to the incident that occurred on the

12 28th of June. You were shown -- I don't have if you have this before you,

13 but we can show it to you. This is Exhibit P134.

14 Do you remember ever having written a -- or mentioned or looked

15 into a report which had been drafted by the Bosnian police?

16 A. I don't remember to have seen that before.

17 Q. But you would agree that the Bosnian police says that you took

18 part, or rather, you were present when the investigation took place. Can

19 you see that?

20 A. As I said earlier, I agree that I was present at the -- at the--

21 the scene, at the TV building, but I was not present when any

22 investigation was carried out.

23 Q. And, in fact, you knew nothing about it. They did it on their own

24 bat and didn't keep you informed about anything; is that right?

25 A. No. It's not correct in that way. It happened sometimes that we

1 carried out the investigations from the UNMO, and from the BiH that they

2 were carried out at the same time. But very often it could happen that

3 it -- that we arrived to the scene maybe later than the BiH and,

4 therefore, we didn't do the investigations together.

5 And I didn't expect to do the investigation in this case, together

6 with the BiH because that would not be normal, but because it would be two

7 different investigation teams. The UNMO's report would never rely on the

8 observations from the BiH investigation team and the other way around.

9 The BiH would not agree on -- or agree is not the correct word. But

10 every team was doing their own investigation.

11 Q. My question was somewhat different, but you did provide an answer.

12 Now, let's get back here to this particular report where your name

13 has been mentioned, Captain Thomas. Was this you, Captain Idriz? These

14 are your first names, aren't they?

15 A. This is my first name, and that's because it is common in Denmark

16 that we use the first name. For some of the other observers, it could be

17 the last name, the family name, but I don't know. For sure it is me that

18 is being referred to in the report.

19 Q. How did they know your name? The policeman who was writing this

20 report, did you introduce yourself? Had you worked together perhaps

21 beforehand? How did he get to know your name?

22 A. When arriving to a crime scene, when the BiH was present, we would

23 always request who was present at the time. So that was normal procedure

24 from the BiH side that they would have the names of the people present.

25 And as I informed the Court about earlier, I was present there for, I

1 believe, two hours, but was not allowed to carry out any investigation, so

2 that can be the reason why they include my name in the report.

3 Q. And all these people, there are 12 people in total, did they

4 introduce themselves to you, these policemen?

5 A. No.

6 Q. But you knew that these were policemen, did you?

7 A. When, as I informed earlier - informed earlier, when I came to the

8 crime scene, we went to the place where there was damages from the bomb.

9 We were then taken to what they meant to be a secure place, and that was

10 the reason for them to keep us away from the scene. I believe for sure I

11 would have been introduced to maybe one or two of those people that were

12 present, but we didn't see -- or I myself didn't see the investigation

13 team from the BiH side.

14 But for sure they would have been carrying out an investigation.

15 So I believe the reason for me being in the report and all of the other

16 names that was the normal procedure from the BiH side. I don't find

17 anything strange in -- in the way that have been doing, except I was not

18 present during their investigation.

19 Q. But you did not co-sign this report, did you?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Now, Mr. Hansen, I would like to address the issue of the

22 relationship between UNMO, you yourself, and the other UNMOs and the ABiH

23 army. So there were liaison officers who were in the same building as

24 you; in other words, the PTT building. Is that right?

25 A. That's correct.

1 Q. And there is was this captain of the -- Nermin Silajdzic, captain

2 of the ABiH army; do you remember him?

3 A. Yeah.

4 Q. Also Captain Goro?

5 A. I'm not sure.

6 Q. There were several of them. There were several liaison officers;

7 is that right? Which of these officers threatened you on the 28th of

8 June, 1995?

9 A. I wouldn't call it a threat, but it was Captain Nermin that wanted

10 me to leave the office.

11 Q. You weren't armed, were you?

12 A. No.

13 Q. But Captain Nermin was, wasn't he?

14 A. No. I don't remember the liaison officer to be armed, but

15 probably they were armed. But as a military observer, you are not armed

16 and I don't remember him as being armed or not being armed.

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just a minute, please.

18 [Trial Chamber confers]

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Please proceed.

20 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. When you reached the site where an incident had occurred, you were

22 not armed and you were there together with local police. Were there other

23 soldiers of the ABiH army, for instance, who came to those sites where you

24 were conducting your investigations?

25 A. If I remember, there were soldiers. But as the situation in

1 Sarajevo at that time was really tense and it was -- the real war going on

2 at that moment, so for sure there had been some soldiers around.

3 Q. Mr. Hansen, you were somebody doing your job in the midst of a

4 war, and you were doing injure job at the time when there was a lot of

5 armed people around you. What were your feelings about this? You were

6 doing your job. How did you feel about feeling secure and area job and

7 not being armed?

8 A. To be honest, I find it a little bit irrelevant, but that is

9 because all the UNMOs are unarmed. And the reason for that is that if we

10 carry a pistol or a gun or anything, that would not secure us in being in

11 those situations. By being unarmed, both parties, the BiH and Bosnian

12 Serbs, then you and everyone knew that the UNMOs were unarmed. So if

13 anything should happen to us, to be armed would never help us. So I

14 didn't feel unsecure about that.

15 Q. But members of UNPROFOR, FreBat, and the other battalions, for

16 instance, were armed and quite heavily armed, if one can say so?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Were you ever together with UNPROFOR soldiers, were you ever

19 together with the Bosnian police on the same investigation site with

20 UNPROFOR people?

21 A. That is two questions. Of course, we were together with the

22 UNPROFOR soldiers, as we were in the same building and I was taking part

23 in -- in reporting together with the UNPROFOR soldiers and the battalions.

24 Second question about it, if I was ever together with Bosnian

25 police on the same investigation side, with UNPROFOR people, there might

1 be UNPROFOR soldiers present at a scene, but that was not likely.

2 Normally, the UNPROFOR troops didn't have any -- anything to do with

3 investigations. Investigations was always carried out by UNMOs.

4 Q. But have you heard about the FreBat who was investigating sniping

5 incidents or shelling?

6 A. When you called it "investigating," it was not investigating in

7 the way that the UNMOs were supposed to investigate. When the FreBat or

8 any of the other battalions, because it was other battalions than the

9 FreBat present in the Sector Sarajevo, they were carrying out the

10 investigations in order to -- to stop, for example, the sniping. We were

11 only supposed to make the investigations to report about it, to have it as

12 an evidence.

13 Q. Now, you have a document in front of you. I don't know how to

14 identify it. It's -- it starts with "Confidential," and it's about the

15 incident that occurred between the liaison officer and Captain Hansen. It

16 is something that was given to you by the Prosecutor. Do you see this

17 document? It's got several pages. I believe everyone has it, but maybe

18 we could call it. It's document P519.

19 A number of questions were asked to you by the Prosecutor, as well

20 as by the learned Judges. So I looked into the structure of this report.

21 This is a report that has several appendixes. Do you agree with me on

22 that?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. So the report was written on July 5, 1995, sent to your HQ in

25 Zagreb, to give information on this incident, but not on the air bomb that

1 had been -- that would have been launched, but on the incident that

2 occurred after this bomb was launched. Right?

3 A. Correct.

4 Q. And the Prosecutor underlined one thing, and I would like to

5 repeat it. On page 4 of this bundle, it is said the following: "Patrol

6 report," and this is the not the report on the bomb itself. The liaison

7 officer, Mr. Nermin Silajdzic, reported the incident he had with you to

8 his senior officer, I guess, the incident that occurred on June 28th in

9 the evening. And you also wrote everything that happened during this

10 encounter with this liaison officer; is that it?

11 A. That's correct.

12 Q. And there is another report, let's call it the normal report, that

13 had been sent at 1800 hours, dated June 28, where there the incident

14 regarding the bomb is reported to your HQ in Zagreb?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. So already at that moment you had the information you got from

17 Captain Idriz from Kenya. He is the one who actually saw the bomb being

18 launched, right?

19 A. I'm not 100 per cent that he was the one, but I was from that

20 site. I was given a list of UNMOs present at the -- in the sector at the

21 moment; and by looking at the names, Captain Idriz was the name that came

22 up in my mind as being the one that had seen this rocket or whatever it

23 was that was launched.

24 As I informed -- I'm sure that this UNMO was one present on the

25 BiH side. He was from religion. He was Muslim and that was one of the

1 things that he was mentioning at the first when he came to my office, that

2 even though he was a Muslim himself, he had to report because he believe

3 in the UN and only reporting on what you see. And, you know, even though

4 he was a Muslim, he then had to file this report or to inform me about

5 what has happened.

6 Q. Now, to your opinion, and it may be just an assumption on my side,

7 but when you saw Captain Nermin Silajdzic, and I read in your report on

8 page 4 of this document, where you actually giving report on the actual

9 timing of what you did, and then there is a very long paragraph in this

10 report where you say: "[In English] At that time there was a reported

11 more than 50 outgoing rounds from heavy weapons outside the PTT building."

12 [Interpretation] And then you continue saying that you walked into

13 Captain Nermin Silajdzic's office. So this was quite a long period of

14 time since then, of course. But do you think that he knew from seeing you

15 that you had guessed what the truth was? That you had guessed that the

16 bomb had come from the BiH side, that you hat found that out?

17 MR. WHITING: Excuse me, Your Honours. I'm not sure how he would

18 be able to know that of the.

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, I uphold that. He can't answer that, but

20 ask another question.

21 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I'd like to get his

22 feeling because a great number of questions of like this were asked of

23 this witness, and this is why I ask this question because when you read

24 the report something actually happened, obviously. Something quite

25 striking, bizarre, I don't know what you want to call it. And I'm asking

1 the witness whether he remembers a different reaction --

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, you can ask him about the reaction of the

3 person. You can ask him about how he reacted, but he can only testify as

4 to what he knows or what he sees.

5 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. So this person's reaction, when you walked into his office, was it

7 bizarre compared to the reactions he usually had on other days? Did he

8 react differently?

9 A. I don't think he reacted different in comparison with other days

10 where the fighting was going on like it was on that day. When there is

11 fighting going on, people are stressed; myself, I believe, as well.

12 And the reason for his reaction is probably, as I mentioned

13 earlier, that when I asked him to stop fire, that was a common thing for

14 us to do as military observers. That when there were casualties, when

15 there were incidents where it could have an a reason to ask the both

16 parties to stop firing for half an hour or something for medical treatment

17 to get in and out, that was common for to us go down and ask for.

18 When I asked him to stop firing, as a I mentioned in my report, he

19 said, What firing? And the BiH they had just outside the PTT building,

20 they had weapons and everyone of us could hear and see from the building

21 that they were firing towards the Bosnian Serb side. That was natural

22 because the fighting was going on from both sides, but his reaction was

23 that he said to me, What fire?

24 Then when I told him there was these weapons placed outside, this

25 misunderstanding, I believe, came up where he asked me, Do you believe

1 that we have fired against ourselves. When I was questioning about the

2 PTT -- no, sorry. When I questioned about stopping the fire because of

3 the incident at the TV building, my answer to him was that we had no

4 reason to believe where the fire came from. When we had carried out the

5 investigation, I would tell him where we believed the fire would have come

6 from.

7 And that is the part where I believe that maybe between the lines

8 understood. Because I must be honest to say as well that by knowing this

9 report from the UNMO, I maybe have difficulties to express myself or to --

10 to show impartiality, if that is the correct word.

11 Q. Well, let's go back to your report and not the report that was

12 given by the Prosecutor, but document D103, because that is the one that

13 has the additional sketch attached it.

14 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we please call that up on the

15 screen, so it's D103 plus the drawing.

16 Q. I see that you have that drawing in hand, do you?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. So let's be very clear: This drawing was made by the person that

19 might be Captain Idriz. That's 90 per cent sure that it might be Captain

20 Idriz. And this was the person that saw the projectile launched and

21 impacting the roof of the TV building.

22 A. That's correct.

23 Q. One last question. You already explained, but this is for the

24 transcript. You said that normally in reports you report on behalf of an

25 UNMO but you don't give the name of the person that provided the

1 information that helped draft the daily report.

2 A. That's correct. That when we sent this report or in the report we

3 sent for -- for the UNMO headquarters in Zagreb there would only be the

4 name on the reporting officer from our headquarter and not from the UNMO

5 that had been doing the observation or investigation, because that would

6 be filed somewhere else, if there would be a written report about it.

7 Q. Thank you, Witness.

8 Questioned by the Court:

9 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you, Captain.

10 I have just a few final questions.

11 One question relates to the kind of fire that you heard outside

12 the PTT building when you were speaking to the BiH liaison officer. Was

13 that just ordinary rifle fire or was it machine-guns or any major weaponry

14 involved in that exchange of fire from the BiH side?

15 THE WITNESS: That was all kind of weapons at that time, including

16 mortar and firing of grenades.

17 JUDGE HARHOFF: Tell me, if you can, how close to the PTT building

18 did the BiH employ heavy weaponry, like mortars?

19 THE WITNESS: Within 100 metres at times.

20 JUDGE HARHOFF: So you had seen this occurring frequently.

21 THE WITNESS: Yes.

22 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you.

23 Another question, or my last question to you, relates to the

24 information given to you by this UNMO, and I would like the registrar to

25 bring us back the picture taken from the top of the building? I believe

1 it was Exhibit number P518. And also if we could have split up on the

2 screen at the same time the previous Exhibit number P517 which was map

3 with the spots. Could we have those brought up together?

4 And while we are waiting for the pictures to come up, Captain, my

5 question to you relates to what you could have seen from the parking place

6 below the terrace where we are now on the picture to your left. I

7 understand that the place where the car was parked was underneath this

8 parking place shown on the picture. Is that correct?

9 THE WITNESS: That is correct.

10 JUDGE HARHOFF: And the direction from the grid reference to the

11 TV building, if the fire came from behind that industrial building that we

12 see in the yellow frame, the direction of the fire would then have been --

13 that the fire would have been shot somewhere behind that building and then

14 had had its trajectory towards the right, if I compare this with the map

15 next to it. Is that correct?

16 THE WITNESS: Yes.

17 JUDGE HARHOFF: Do you remember what you could actually see when

18 you were standing on the lower parking place at the time? You told us,

19 when I asked you this question before, that he showed you the place from

20 which you -- from which he said the shot had been fired.

21 But what could you actually see from down there? Can you be very

22 precise and tell me, could you see, for instance, the ground? Was it

23 possible to see from the level below this the actual ground from where the

24 launcher might have stood, or was behind of industrial building?

25 THE WITNESS: As far as I could remember, you could see into

1 ground on some places between the buildings. And I said earlier, the new

2 building with grey, blue, red was not built at the time, as far as I

3 remember. So it was -- for me, it was good reasons to believe that he

4 could -- as he reported, that he could see the projectile all the way from

5 where it was fired and to the impact on the building. I had no reason not

6 to believe that this could not have happened, that he had seen that.

7 JUDGE HARHOFF: No. But you could see with your own eyes the

8 ground, and you would have a clear view towards the east from there.

9 THE WITNESS: Yes. To the TV building, yes.

10 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you.

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Captain --

12 MR. WHITING: I'm a little concerned about one thing on where

13 there have been a misunderstanding in terms of where the lower parking lot

14 is located in the relation to the upper parking lot, just based on our own

15 observations. And I don't know -- I'm not sure it ultimately has import,

16 but I'm a little concerned about the record being left with what may be a

17 misunderstanding based on the witness's understanding of the question.

18 JUDGE HARHOFF: I suggest we ask the witness about it, but my --

19 the reason why I'm asking this, of course, is that from the upper

20 platform, where we were, you would have a very good view. And my

21 recollection was when we were at the site that if you would have gone

22 down, you would have been able to see less. So this is why I'm asking the

23 captain what could he actually see, because depending on where exactly the

24 car was parked underneath, he might have had a good view. And I

25 understand the witness as saying that, yes, he did have a quite good view

1 from downstairs.

2 MR. WHITING: I don't dispute that, and I think the evidence is

3 clear on that. It's just that I think that the lower parking lot is not

4 underneath the upper parking lot; it's next to it but lower. That's all.

5 JUDGE HARHOFF: That could well be, but the answer offered by the

6 witness is the important thing; namely, that he was able to see the ground

7 and the possible trajectory.

8 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, if I may, I was part

9 of the visit. So it's not next to it, but I believe this -- it's in the

10 prolongation. It's an extension of this little wall. That's where we

11 could have the parking.

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Why don't you put the question to the witness.

13 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. Yes, Witness, please, could you look at the picture again, the

15 picture that is on the screen.

16 According to your recollection, could you tell us what was the

17 position of what you called the upper parking and the lower parking lot on

18 this photograph. Could you tell us where the upper parking lot would be

19 and the lower parking lot would be?

20 A. I find it difficult from this picture to -- to recall the scene.

21 But as far as I remember from standing at his car where we went down to,

22 there is a lower parking place, lower than this one.

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you. May I ask you, Captain, at the time

24 of this incident how old were you?

25 THE WITNESS: I have to calculate. I'm born in 1962, so I must

1 have been 33.

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thirty-three. And how many years service in the

3 army had you had at that time?

4 THE WITNESS: I only had two years of services in the Danish army

5 at that time. I was an officer of the reserve and the infantry. And in

6 the Danish army, we have the tradition that we have an officer of the

7 reserve and then you have to serve a certain number of days, weeks, months

8 every year. So you are called in and retrained, and you can only graduate

9 in rank by going through different courses.

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: May I ask you: How long were you in the company

11 of the UNMO officer who made the report to you on that day.

12 THE WITNESS: I don't fully understand your question. If you mean

13 how long I have been in the mission --

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: No, no. I'm talking about the UNMO officer.

15 THE WITNESS: Yes.

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Is it Captain Idriz? You're 90 per cent that it

17 is Captain Idriz? He made the report to you.

18 THE WITNESS: Yes.

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: And was he in your company for some time after

20 that; and if so, for how long? How long did you see him on that day?

21 THE WITNESS: If it was Captain Idriz I, can see from the report

22 that he went to the PTT building together with me, so he had probably been

23 together with me for three, four hours that day. But it was not common

24 for to us be four hours together with the UNMOs being in the teams, and

25 I'm being present at the operation rooming. I was visiting the teams.

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: So he was with you for about three, four hours.

2 During that time did you speak with him?

3 THE WITNESS: Yes.

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: And were you able to form an impression of his

5 character, of his intelligence?

6 THE WITNESS: From the whole period serving together in Sector

7 Sarajevo, together with him, I have no reason not to -- to see him as a

8 proper and good working UNMO.

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: So you had in fact known him before then.

10 THE WITNESS: Yes. But, sir, not personally in any way, because

11 with -- I came from another sector, Sector East, where have I been serving

12 for six months. And at the time of this incident, I have been in Sector

13 Sarajevo for, I believe, five months. And with 80 observers and at the

14 time of situation was tense, we didn't have near -- we didn't know each

15 other personally, only a few of the observers knew. Because myself

16 working in the PTT building as an operation officer, that was 16, 18 hours

17 a day and by reporting and going around and doing investigations.

18 So you don't have that personal contact to many of the UNMOs.

19 That is probably the reason why I don't recall his name because he was not

20 one that I had -- had any reason to -- to pay more attention to than other

21 UNMOs before this incident.

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: He was a captain, too?

23 THE WITNESS: Yes. If he was the one, he was a captain. But I

24 recall him as a young UNMO. When I recall the picture, when he came into

25 the office, I recall him as a young officer; and by "young" that means

1 probably captain. And by going through the list of the UNMOs present at

2 the time in Sector Sarajevo, excluding people being on the Bosnian Serb

3 side, being in the teams and so on, I believe this is the UNMO.

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: You were 33 at the time?

5 THE WITNESS: Yes.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Would he have been younger than that age, in your

7 estimation?

8 THE WITNESS: That is difficult to see on people when coming from

9 different nationalities and so on. I believe he was of my age.

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Now, on the basis of the knowledge that you had

11 of him, in particular the three or four hours that he was in your company

12 on that day, would you have any reason to believe that he was confused in

13 giving this report?

14 THE WITNESS: No.

15 [Trial Chamber confers]

16 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Captain, I have one last question

17 for you.

18 When I look at your report of June 28, you write about two UNMOs.

19 The first one says that the projectile left from grid BP 866587 on BiH

20 territory; and the second UNMO says that the projectile, which looks more

21 like a rocket, was launched from the north-west.

22 So according to you, is it the same direction, or did the

23 observers make a mistake?

24 THE WITNESS: Where do we say that it says he reports seeing it

25 coming from the west?

1 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] On the second page, third

2 paragraph.

3 THE WITNESS: Correct, I see it.

4 When the UNMO has been reporting, so I have been writing it in my

5 report and nothing else.

6 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] But my question is you, as their --

7 the officer in charge of operations, do you think that these two reports

8 converge or diverge?

9 At your level, you heard those two people, did you think what they

10 were saying corresponded or did not match.

11 THE WITNESS: I'm sure I had been thinking about it at that time,

12 but you must know that at the time the fighting was going on from both

13 sides. So there was not only this one projectile in the air at this time.

14 There could have been others.

15 If you want me to answer your question, if I think there is

16 something strange or different in the way that they are reporting, I need

17 time to think about it, because I -- I know that when reporting that at

18 the time when filing the report, this is what I believed and this is what

19 the UNMOs they informed me. And they way of reporting, as an UNMO, we

20 were not to make any conclusions in our report.

21 We were only to report what the UNMOs that came in reported to us,

22 although it might be of different -- I mean, that it wouldn't draw one

23 conclusion. We were only to send the report and then it was for other

24 people, like you now, to make conclusions if this is an important or not.

25 So at the time I reported this because this is what the UNMO

1 informed me; and by looking at it right now, I can't conclude myself if

2 this is a different thing that they are reporting or if it's the same.

3 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Thank you, Witness.

4 [Trial Chamber confers]

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Now, Captain, do you remember when I asked you

6 about the superior officer from Zagreb who told you to forget about the

7 report of this incident? You indicated that he called a second time and

8 he told you, I believe, that the matter had been settled. Did he say

9 anything else? What is your understanding as to what he meant by the

10 matter had been settled? Did he provide any further information on what

11 had happened to settle the matter?

12 THE WITNESS: I have no opinion about why he was calling me, only

13 that when I have reported this I was not supposed to take any other

14 matters on the affair.

15 There's also one thing that I also mentioned for -- I don't

16 remember your name on that side.

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Prosecutor is enough.

18 THE WITNESS: Sorry. I mentioned when they called me or one

19 assistant called me was that I was asked about the grid reference that we

20 reported in the report. This report went, as I said earlier, to the

21 headquarter for the whole sector for the whole of Bosnia, and they were

22 carrying out an investigation. They sent some special troops. I believe

23 it was SAS people to the grid reference.

24 Later on that afternoon or the day after, they told me that

25 because we had near contact, a good cooperation sometimes where we could

1 not carry out an investigation, they could have possibilities to look into

2 the areas. And they told me that they had been on the grid reference and

3 carried out investigation, and there was -- they couldn't find any

4 evidence of anything fired from the place.

5 But from the grid reference where they have been was not the same

6 that we had given in the report, so there must have been a

7 misunderstanding somewhere, because they had not been on this place where

8 the grid reference is.

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Whiting --

10 JUDGE HARHOFF: How narrow is a grid point? Is it ten square

11 metres?

12 THE WITNESS: No. This grid given here is within 100 metres. So

13 it's for -- for you, sirs, the first two numbers is the grid reference.

14 If you have a grid on the map, then it's one square kilometre, a square

15 kilometer. And for the certain number in the grid reference is 100

16 metres, then you can give a fourth one and it would be within ten metres.

17 So the UNMO gave a grid reference; and from where he pointed out

18 we gave reference with 100 metre. But the grid reference, as far as I

19 recall it, it was SAS troops that had been sent to the grid reference.

20 They didn't refer to the same grid reference. I think that was 5, 600

21 metres from the grid reference we have given.

22 JUDGE HARHOFF: But tell me one thing: The grid reference we see

23 on the map, 866587, is that one kilometre on each side, one square

24 kilometre?

25 THE WITNESS: That is one square kilometre. I believe that is one

1 kilometre. It's normal that you have one kilometre in the grids.

2 JUDGE HARHOFF: But can you recall, looking at the map, what is

3 the distance between the PTT building and the grid reference, the red spot

4 on the map, and the TV building.

5 THE WITNESS: It's 4, 500 metres as I see it.

6 JUDGE HARHOFF: From which point?

7 THE WITNESS: From the PTT building, it is around 4, 500 metres.

8 JUDGE HARHOFF: And to the TV building?

9 THE WITNESS: From the grid reference to the TV building, it will

10 be around 7, 800 metres.

11 JUDGE HARHOFF: So the grid reference, the red spot, what does

12 that actually signify? Because if the grid reference refers to an area

13 which is one kilometre by one kilometre --

14 THE WITNESS: No, sorry. The grid reference refers to a square

15 100 metre.

16 JUDGE HARHOFF: You mean the one shown on the map?

17 THE WITNESS: Yes.

18 JUDGE HARHOFF: Okay, well, then I understand better okay. Thank

19 you.

20 MR. WHITING: Your Honour, I have one question arising out of

21 Judge Mindua' questions, if I may.

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

23 Further Re-examination by Mr. Whiting:

24 MR. WHITING: We have Exhibit 518 on the screen, if we could focus

25 on that.

1 Q. And, Captain Hansen, I am going to go back to the notation of the

2 29th of June in your report in which Judge Mindua asked you about, in

3 which you say that another UNMO, who was in the parking lot at the PTT,

4 believed the sound of the rocket was from the north-west. Now, just

5 looking at the map here, the grid reference that you have identified in

6 your report is to the north, north-east of the PTT building, right?

7 A. Right.

8 Q. So if the UNMO believed that the sound came from the north-west,

9 from the PTT building, then that would be something different from it

10 being launched from the grid reference that have you identified. That

11 would be a different place?

12 A. That would be a different place.

13 Q. Okay.

14 A. But my report also says that he looked, and I only reported what

15 he told me. He looked in the direction where he heard or believed to have

16 heard something, and he didn't see anything. There is a lot of buildings,

17 so there would be echo from the buildings.

18 Q. Well, the -- according to the report, he looked after the sound of

19 the impact, right?

20 A. Yeah.

21 Q. So it's not surprising that if he looked -- after the bomb landed,

22 if looked towards the direction where he heard it was coming from, he

23 would not see anything. That's not surprising, is it?

24 A. No, no.

25 Q. Okay.

1 MR. WHITING: Thank you, Your Honours.

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Isailovic.

3 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Question, one last question.

4 Further cross-examination by Ms. Isailovic.

5 Q. [Interpretation] So Mr. Hansen, it seems when you look at the

6 second part of your report, it seems that this person thought that he had

7 heard the sound and then looked in that direction the sound came from and

8 saw nothing. Is that accurate?

9 A. That's accurate.

10 Q. Thank you.

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Captain Hansen, that concludes your testimony.

12 We thank you for coming to the Tribunal to give it, and you may now leave.

13 [The witness withdrew]

14 [Trial Chamber confers]

15 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: We'll take a relatively extended break to allow

17 for the voice distortion and the other technical facilities to be set up

18 for the next witness.

19 We're adjourned until quarter to 1.00.

20 --- Recess taken at 12.13 p.m.

21 --- On resuming at 12.56 p.m.

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let the witness make the declaration.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I hereby declare that I will speak

24 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

25 WITNESS: WITNESS W-95

1 [Witness answered through interpreter]

2 [Witness testified via videolink]

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Mr. Sachdeva, you may begin.

4 MR. SACHDEVA: Thank you, Mr. President. Good afternoon to you

5 and to Your Honours.

6 Examination by Mr. Sachdeva:

7 Q. Witness, good afternoon to you.

8 A. Good afternoon.

9 Q. I just want to check that you can hear me in a language that you

10 understand and that you can also see me. Is that right?

11 A. Yes, I can understand and I can see.

12 Q. And I also want to --

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Sachdeva, perhaps I should have clarified at

14 the outset, for the benefit of the record, that this witness is giving

15 evidence by video conference link.

16 Please proceed.

17 MR. SACHDEVA:

18 Q. I also want to confirm to you, Witness, that the Court has granted

19 you protective measures and therefore I will be referring to you as

20 Witness 95, and you should take care not to say anything that would

21 identify you. Do you understand that?

22 A. Yes, I do.

23 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President, may we go into private session so I

24 can elicit the personal details, please?

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

1 [Private session]

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 [Open session]

22 THE REGISTRAR: We're back in open session, Your Honours.

23 MR. SACHDEVA:

24 Q. Now, Witness 95, do you remember giving a statement to persons

25 from the Tribunal on the 8th of July, 2006? That is, last year.

1 A. Yes, I do.

2 Q. And do you remember that the statement you gave referred to an

3 incident in Bunicki Potok, on the 1st of July, 1995?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Now, did members of the Tribunal visit your house yesterday, that

6 is Sunday, and read through the statement that you gave in a language that

7 you understand?

8 A. Yes. Yes, they did.

9 Q. And after they read through the statement, are you now able to

10 confirm that what is contained in that statement is accurate and true, to

11 the best of your knowledge and recollection?

12 A. Everything is correct. There are no mistakes at all.

13 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President, could I ask that 65 ter 03065 be

14 shown to the witness and also brought up on e-court, and that it's not

15 broadcast, please.

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

17 MR. SACHDEVA:

18 Q. Witness W-95, you will be shown a statement in a moment by the

19 court officer down there in Sarajevo. If you can just confirm for me when

20 have you that in front of you.

21 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President, I apologise. I actually -- it's

22 actually 03067, the ter number. Excuse me for that.

23 Q. Witness W-95, do you have that statement in front of you?

24 A. I do.

25 Q. And at the bottom of the first page, if you could look at the

1 bottom of the first page, do you see your thumb print there on that

2 statement?

3 A. I see it there, yes. Here it is.

4 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President, I would ask that that statement be

5 enter into evidence under seal.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this becomes P520 under seal.

8 MR. SACHDEVA:

9 Q. Witness W-95, I have just one question for you, so I'm not going

10 to take too much of your time. But on that incident on the 1st of July in

11 1995, were you injured by the shell that landed?

12 A. Yes, I was. It was not a shell; it was something larger than a

13 shell. It was like an air bomb. It was not a shell.

14 Q. And what happened to you? What injuries did you sustain?

15 A. I sustained injuries in my left shoulder. I have two pieces of

16 shrapnel, which they couldn't take out, and they're still there.

17 Q. And did you as a result of those injuries have to -- were you

18 admitted to hospital as a result of those injuries?

19 A. Yes, I was. They took me to hospital right away. I was in the

20 hospital until 2.00. They tried and tried to take it out and they

21 couldn't. There were many wounded in the hospital. It was overcrowded.

22 They spent me back home. So I was at home and I would drift in and out of

23 consciousness. They took me to a private clinic. The doctor helped me,

24 then they took me to the month military hospital to get an X-ray. I

25 couldn't get up.

1 I would try to raise my head, and then I would begin to lose

2 consciousness; and then they took my back home, and ten days later I went

3 again for them try and take the pieces of shrapnel out. And the doctor

4 said it's not worth slitting the throat of an ox just to get two kilograms

5 of meat out of it. They said if we were to take out these pieces of

6 shrapnel, we would have to amputate your arm. There's no other way to do.

7 And so to this very day I'm having problems all over my left side.

8 Q. Witness W-95, thank you very much for your answers.

9 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President, that concludes the

10 examination-in-chief.

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you.

12 Ms. Isailovic. Ms. Isailovic.

13 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

14 Cross-examination by Ms. Isailovic:

15 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Witness. I'm Branislava Isailovic.

16 I'm a lawyer with the Paris Bar, and I defend the accused in these

17 proceedings, General Dragomir Milosevic.

18 I'm going to ask you a few questions regarding your statement

19 which you just dealt with the Prosecutor.

20 First question: You did not sign this signature with your

21 handwriting, is that true?

22 A. No. I'm illiterate. I did put my thumb print there. It's the

23 same as a signature.

24 Q. Thank you.

25 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Now, I would like my case manager

1 to call up a document that should not be broadcast. 65 ter document 3068.

2 Q. And could the court officer in Sarajevo show this document to the

3 witness.

4 A. Yes, I made that statement. I agree.

5 Q. Witness, please, this is your statement dated October 7, 1995.

6 Could you please look at the end of the statement. You -- there is your

7 signature at the very bottom of this document?

8 A. There is a signature there.

9 Q. Is it your signature?

10 A. They came and they put questions to me. I couldn't sign and then

11 maybe somebody else signed, but I was not aware. I was not conscious.

12 I'm not literate. Somebody else might have signed. I'm not afraid of

13 anything. I will only speak the truth and nothing but the truth.

14 Q. Witness, maybe you remember who signed in your place.

15 A. I don't know. I have nothing to do with it. I was not myself. I

16 was in the hospital. The hospital staff could have signed. There were

17 foreign organisations there asking questions. I was not myself. Who

18 signed this? Well, I can't tell you.

19 Q. Witness, on October 7, 1995, you were still in the hospital after

20 your injury? This was a few months later, and there statement is dated

21 October 7, 1995.

22 A. No, I wasn't in the hospital. I wasn't in hospital. But I was

23 always seeing doctors, and I'm still under medical supervision to this

24 day. I was under the supervision of doctors a lot, and I still am.

25 Q. But my question is the following: You made the statement that we

1 have just seen, and it was a statement that you made in front of police

2 officers.

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. There is the signature of a policeman. So could you tell us if a

5 policeman was actually there to take your statement?

6 A. I don't remember. It was a long time ago, 12 years ago. I don't

7 remember who was there, let me tell you.

8 Q. Witness, in your statement, you say that you were in the apartment

9 or the house of your daughter-in-law -- somebody from the family. So you

10 were not in your own house at the time. Is that true?

11 A. We were expelled from our house. We arrived there as refugees.

12 Q. So you were in the house of this relative because you were a

13 refugee.

14 A. She was not my daughter-in-law but my sister-in-law.

15 Q. And at the time did you know Hrasnica well?

16 A. Yes, of course, I did because it wasn't far from my village.

17 THE INTERPRETER: Could you repeat your question, please,

18 Ms. Isailovic.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's at the foot of Igman.

20 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation]

21 I'm sorry, Witness. I was asked to repeat my question. But the

22 witness did answer my question. So for the transcript, this was my

23 question.

24 Was it close to Mount Igman; and then in line 11 the witness

25 answered my question. This wasn't intended for you. This was a mere

1 technical issue.

2 The question I'd like to put to you now runs as follows: At the

3 time, did you know about Igman road?

4 A. No. The road -- I knew the road. I knew some roads and pathways

5 but not those.

6 Q. In Hrasnica, at that time, were there a lot of soldiers passing

7 through the village, soldiers on their way to Mount Igman? Do you

8 remember this?

9 A. There were no soldiers there at all. There were only civilians

10 there. There was nothing military there at all. There were only

11 civilians there.

12 Q. And precisely what is a civilian person?

13 A. A civilian, for example, are women, elderly men, children. That's

14 what I call civilians. People who were not carrying a rifle were

15 civilians. People who were not able to carry a rifle were civilians in my

16 view.

17 Q. So in Hrasnica, you actually -- during this period when the war

18 was on, you never saw any male carrying any weapons?

19 A. I didn't. The soldiers were up there on Mount Igman. People knew

20 where the lines were. The soldiers didn't come down to Hrasnica, not at

21 all.

22 Q. Do you perhaps know how these people got to Igman?

23 A. Who, the soldiers?

24 Q. Yes.

25 A. The soldiers went up to Igman. The lines were set. They kept the

1 lines, and there was something called UNPROFOR between the lines. The

2 Serbs were there in Trnovo and Vejsici, and our soldiers were up there on

3 Igman. That's how it was.

4 Q. Thank you, Witness. I have no further questions.

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Sachdeva, any re-examination.

6 MR. SACHDEVA: No re-examination, Mr. President.

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Witness, that concludes your evidence. We thank

8 you for giving it, and you may now leave.

9 [The witness's testimony via videolink concluded]

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: We'll wait now for the next witness.

11 MR. WHITING: Your Honour, unfortunately, we don't have another

12 witness for today. We tried as we might to schedule two witnesses for

13 today and we just had difficulties doing it, and we couldn't schedule a

14 second witness for today. This is the only witness for today. I

15 apologise for the loss of time, approximately 25 minutes. We are

16 confident that we can fit the witnesses into the three remaining days.

17 [Trial Chamber confers]

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: We'll adjourn until tomorrow.

19 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.20 p.m.,

20 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 3rd day of April,

21 2007, at 9.00 a.m.

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