1 Wednesday, 13 February 2002

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.05 a.m.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone. Madam Registrar, would you

6 please call the case.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case number

8 IT-98-29-T, the Prosecutor versus Stanislav Galic.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar. I think we are at the

10 point where we could continue the examination-in-chief of the witness

11 Sokolar. I see that the usher is already trying to find him.

12 Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. In

14 relation to this witness, it happened that the Defence had to spend the

15 better part of the night in order to solve the problem, to look at the

16 look at the invoices, and it looks as if I'm going to have to ask several

17 more questions after Ms. Pilipovic, if the Chamber will let me. Thank

18 you.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

20 [The witness entered court]

21 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Mr. Sokolar.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps unnecessary, but may I remind you of the

24 solemn declaration you made yesterday at the beginning of your

25 continual -- testimony yesterday. Yes, then you may continue your

1 examination-in-chief. Please proceed, Mr. Mundis.

2 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President.

3 WITNESS: REFIK SOKOLAR [Resumed]

4 [Witness answered through interpreter]

5 Examined by Mr. Mundis: [Continued]

6 Q. Mr. Sokolar, when we broke yesterday, you were describing how the

7 city had become divided on the basis of ethnicity of the residents. Can

8 you please tell the Trial Chamber which neighbourhoods became

9 predominantly Serb once the war started?

10 A. These were predominantly the settlements where there was a

11 majority Serb population, and I told you yesterday that this was Rajlovac,

12 Nedzarici, Lukavica, and then later on it was also the case of Ilidza,

13 Vogosca, Hadzici.

14 Q. Once the war started, how did your police duties change?

15 A. Considering that there was real chaos as far as property of

16 the state was concerned, cars, shops, there were many crimes that were

17 committed, and we tried as much as we could to identify the perpetrators.

18 And occasionally I also started to have duties that I hadn't had so far.

19 Q. Did there come a time shortly after the war broke out that you

20 became aware of sniping activities?

21 A. Considering that this was by the municipality Novi Grad and I

22 lived in Dobrinja, there was a need to have someone from the crime

23 department work in did Dobrinja, and I was aware that there was sniping

24 activity.

25 Q. How did you become aware of this sniping activity?

1 A. There were areas it was impossible to go to. At first, these were

2 just intersections, and then later on there were physical obstacles,

3 roadblocks, for instance, containers, all the damaged cars, lorries, et

4 cetera.

5 Q. When did those roadblocks and barricades begin being established?

6 A. These roadblocks started to be put up as checkpoints, when

7 there were people present as well. And these were physical obstacles, as

8 I mentioned, and this was the period early April. And in fact it was

9 April and it went on until about mid-May.

10 Q. And again, the year was 1992?

11 A. Yes, 1992.

12 Q. And at that point in time, May of 1992, where were you officially

13 posted as a police officer?

14 A. In May 1992, I still was supposed to be in the centre of the Novi

15 Grad municipality, but this was near the Alipasino settlement in

16 Sarajevo.

17 Q. Did there come a time shortly thereafter that your duty station

18 changed?

19 A. Because I lived in Dobrinja, for a period of time, because of

20 sniping activity, it was impossible to get from Dobrinja to the Olympic

21 Village and to the military field near Dobrinja V. And so Dobrinja was

22 cut off from the city and I was unable to get to work for a whole week.

23 Q. Did you then begin working out of a police office in Dobrinja?

24 A. On the phone, I spoke to my superiors, and I went to the centre,

25 about the 10th of May that was, and I was later told that I should work in

1 Dobrinja where I would set up and where I lived.

2 Q. Did you establish a small police station in Dobrinja?

3 A. I would like to stress that because of the events in Slovenia and

4 Croatia, there was a plan --

5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I hear the interpretation

7 booth, and they are asking the witness to approach the microphone, please.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Please come a bit closer to the microphone. Thank

9 you for your assistance, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

10 MR. MUNDIS:

11 Q. Mr. Sokolar, I would like to focus your attention on establishing

12 the police station in Dobrinja. Did there come a time when you did

13 that?

14 A. I tried to explain that because of the events in Croatia and in

15 Slovenia, at the end of 1991, just before 1992, what was created was a

16 reserve police force. And this force was the same in structure as the

17 active force, there were all three ethnic -- ethnicities represented. And

18 in April, when there was a departure, and when there were two or even, in

19 some cases, three MUPs or CSBs, and after the workers of Serbian origin

20 left, then in areas this was also the same case. And in Dobrinja, there

21 was a unit of police established as well.

22 Q. Did this include both reserve and active-duty police?

23 A. Yes, it did. As I said, this was November/December 1991. There

24 was already a part of the reserve force, and I said that the workers of

25 Serb origin, although they were active, they left, they departed, and they

1 created and established other new stations, public security stations.

2 Q. So from approximately mid-1992 onwards, you were posted out of the

3 police office in Dobrinja?

4 A. Yes, exactly from June 1992, I was in Dobrinja. I lived in

5 Dobrinja, and I worked there.

6 Q. And did you remain working and living in Dobrinja throughout the

7 duration of the war?

8 A. Yes, until the end of the war, I lived and worked in Dobrinja.

9 Only occasionally I went out into the city, but very rarely. If there was

10 a need to do that, I would go to the centre.

11 Q. And during the course of the war, as you were posted in Dobrinja,

12 did a large part of your responsibilities include investigating sniping

13 incidents?

14 A. Well, I have to clarify that because Dobrinja was surrounded for

15 quite a long time, so it was impossible -- we were cut off. It was

16 impossible to communicate because there were also periods without

17 electricity, without telephone connection. It wasn't possible to use a

18 telephone or the fax. So I was forced to do jobs that I hadn't done until

19 then.

20 Q. Can you please provide some examples of these types of jobs.

21 A. This was -- this was going to the local hospital. This was first

22 a surgery infirmary, and then it became a local hospital. So what would

23 happen is that the practice was that they would call us and inform us

24 there were wounded people or those who were killed so we would go to the

25 hospital. We would check the identity of the person in question, the type

1 of injury, and then later on, if it was possible, we would go to the scene

2 of the incident if the situation allowed it, of course, or at least the

3 vicinity of the location where the incident happened.

4 Q. These people who you've indicated were taken to the hospital with

5 wounds, what type of wounds did these people sustain?

6 A. There were many different kinds of injuries from shelling, and

7 there were also from bullets, from automatic bullets. There were exit and

8 entry wounds. And of course when shells were in question, then of course

9 there were also amputations.

10 Q. During the last six months of 1992, approximately how many times

11 were you summoned to the hospital?

12 A. I would like to stress that a number of casualties, people who

13 died as well as those who were wounded in the course of 1992 were not

14 really recorded, registered. Perhaps there are data in the local hospital

15 in Dobrinja. But we -- myself, I speak for myself, I did not get any

16 instruction as to record these incidents. It's only really in 1993 that

17 we started to work seriously on identification and recording of these

18 sniping activities and shelling.

19 Q. During 1993, if you recall, approximately how many times or how

20 frequently would you be summoned to the hospital?

21 A. There were days where it could happen that I would go three or

22 four times a day, and then there were days with no activity. So it

23 happened that it could be either three or four days during the day or

24 sometimes days with no activity at all.

25 Q. Do you know approximately how many sniping incidents you

1 investigated during 1993 in Dobrinja?

2 A. I would like to stress again that I did not go myself to these

3 investigations. If it was possible, if the situation allowed it, I was

4 given assistance from the centre of the town, from the city, if it was

5 possible to have a proper team established with the investigating judge

6 and other experts who would assist me in the investigation, particularly

7 in the cases where there were more than one person killed.

8 Q. Did the situation with respect to sniping continue during 1994?

9 A. Yes, it did. Sniping activity continued in 1994.

10 Q. During 1994, were you also summoned to the hospital to investigate

11 persons injured due to sniping?

12 A. Yes, it was the usual practice. Whenever someone would be

13 injured, taken to a hospital, the personnel, either the doctor or the

14 nurses, would inform us that there were wounded people, and we would then

15 go and take their personal details. And as I said, if it was possible, we

16 would go to the scene of the incident or the vicinity of the scene of the

17 incident.

18 Q. Do you know approximately how frequently you went to the hospital

19 during 1994?

20 A. I couldn't really say. Quite a lot of time has passed since then,

21 six years ago. So I couldn't tell you the exact number, but there were

22 several cases.

23 Q. Mr. Sokolar, you testified a few moments ago that Dobrinja was

24 surrounded. Do you know if there were parts of Dobrinja that were held by

25 the Bosnian Serb army?

1 A. Yes. There were two areas of Dobrinja that were under their

2 control. This was Dobrinja IV and part of Dobrinja I. And also, the

3 settlement around the airport, it could be considered that it was under

4 their control.

5 Q. As part of your crime prevention duties during 1993 and 1994, did

6 that include a public awareness of sniping incidents?

7 A. Well, it wasn't my duty exactly. The policemen were in charge of

8 that who were patrolling the streets and who were informing the citizens

9 and telling about the places, locations where it was dangerous to cross

10 the streets or to be in an open area, unprotected.

11 Q. As a result of the investigations that you conducted into sniping

12 in Dobrinja in 1993 and 1994, did you reach any conclusions as to the

13 locations where the snipers were situated at the time these incidents

14 occurred?

15 A. Yes. Considering the configuration of the terrain, looking from

16 Dobrinja, this came from Dobrinja IV, Dobrinja I, from the village of

17 Nedzarici, and also the settlement around the airport. So it came from

18 these locations.

19 Q. Did you ever conduct an investigation where you reached the

20 conclusion that perhaps the school of theology was a source of sniping

21 fire?

22 A. Yes. I cannot remember how many cases, but I believe I did. Yes,

23 I would like to also stress that every time I went out to the scene of the

24 incidents, it was recorded. I would make an official note, short note,

25 and I would inform my superiors about these incidents.

1 MR. MUNDIS: I would ask the witness be shown a document marked

2 P3267.

3 THE REGISTRAR: Excuse me, do you mean 2367?

4 MR. MUNDIS: Indeed I do. Thank you, Madam Registrar.

5 Q. Mr. Sokolar, I would like you to take a look at the document that

6 you have just been handed and tell the Trial Chamber what this document

7 is.

8 A. What I can see here is a document which contains the description

9 of the incident including my official note, including medical

10 documentation. So as much as I can see, I think I can remember what it

11 was all about.

12 Q. Is this document one of the reports that you would have produced

13 following the reporting of a sniping incident?

14 A. Yes. This is an official note that I wrote about going to the

15 hospital, and going to the vicinity of the scene of the incident.

16 Q. Do you recall the specifics of this incident?

17 A. I think I can. In fact, I can see that this is about shooting at

18 the bus which was carrying passengers and arriving in Dobrinja. It

19 stopped in the centre, and while the bus was standing, it was hit near a

20 tyre, and two ladies were injured. I first went to the hospital where I

21 spoke to the personnel, and I found out about their injuries. The bus --

22 the bus had gone, gone to the garage, and there it is -- my colleagues

23 went to the garage and looked at the bus. So it was established that it

24 was hit from the right-hand side -- on the right-hand side near the tyre

25 while it was standing. And I believe that these are exit and entry wounds

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1 of the two ladies. I think in one lady's case it was one leg, and in the

2 second lady's case, it was both legs. Let me just have a look at it.

3 Yes. That's it.

4 Q. Mr. Sokolar, do you recall the approximate location in Dobrinja

5 where this bus was located at the time it was fired upon?

6 A. Considering that I have been living in Dobrinja now for 20 years,

7 and I know Dobrinja rather well, the bus had stopped in a wide

8 intersection, large street between the buildings of streets in Nikole

9 Demonje Street and Omladinskih Radnih Brigada Street.

10 Q. And did your investigation lead you to any conclusions as to the

11 source of fire in this incident?

12 A. The bus was standing in front of or just before the intersection,

13 after arriving in Dobrinja, and there was a grassy area. Now there is a

14 small shopping centre. It's no longer an open area. This is where it had

15 stopped. And it was open. It was then -- the fire was opened on the

16 bus.

17 Q. Did you reach any conclusions about where the sniper was located

18 who shot at the bus?

19 A. Considering that the bus was standing when we arrived in the

20 vicinity of the scene of the incident, and looking at the direction where

21 the bullet could have come from, I think it could -- we could conclude

22 that this came from up above Dobrinja, so from the direction of

23 Nedzarici. That means between two blocks -- two apartment blocks.

24 MR. MUNDIS: I would ask that the witness be shown the map which

25 is marked P3097.

1 Q. Mr. Sokolar, do you recall meeting with an investigator from the

2 International Tribunal in 1995?

3 A. Yes. They came on several occasions, and they called me for an

4 interview. And I believe that we also went to the scene of the incident.

5 I can't quite remember. We went to several scenes of the incident where

6 there was also -- there had also been shelling, also sniping. So I can't

7 quite remember whether it was them that I went with because we went to all

8 of these scenes and also the areas.

9 Q. During the course of the interview in 1995, do you remember being

10 handed a map and being asked to make certain markings on the map?

11 A. Yes, that's true. I was shown a map of Dobrinja.

12 Q. I'd ask you to take a look at the map to your right and tell the

13 Trial Chamber if that is the map that you, in fact, marked during the

14 course of an interview in 1995.

15 A. Yes, this is the map. I can even recognise my handwriting. I

16 used a red ballpoint to write the demarcation line.

17 Q. Can you please indicate on the map where you made that demarcation

18 line.

19 A. Here, this is the line, towards Dobrinja I and Dobrinja IV

20 localities, and it is not indicated on the way towards Nedzarici.

21 Q. Next to the demarcation line that you drew on this map, did you

22 also place some words in the Bosnian language next to that?

23 JUDGE ORIE: Would it be possible, perhaps, to put the north

24 upwards and this is easier for our orientation, and perhaps then zoom in a

25 bit more on Dobrinja, and put that in the centre. Yes -- perhaps, put up

1 the map a tiny little bit up, Mr. Usher, could you please. Yes, I think

2 that's ...

3 Please proceed, Mr. Mundis.

4 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you.

5 Q. Mr. Sokolar, next to the demarcation line which you indicated on

6 the map, did you also write some words --

7 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Could you please point out again the

8 demarcation line, please.

9 A. The demarcation line on one side was between Dobrinja I and --

10 went between Dobrinja I and Dobrinja IV, and this is where I drew it by

11 hand. And I then wrote there the demarcation line. And there are some

12 other markings, green ones, but these are only pointers, indications, for

13 the Nedzarici locality.

14 MR. MUNDIS:

15 Q. Witness, with respect to the demarcation line that you made on the

16 right-hand side of the map, did you mark that with two words in the

17 Bosnian language?

18 A. I only see what I wrote here, and that is the demarcation line.

19 Linja Razjanicena (phoen), that is the only thing. I also put 1, 2, 3.

20 Oh, I see here number 7, 6, but no other characters. And I also wrote up

21 in the corner, the 8th of November, 1995.

22 Q. Thank you, Witness.

23 Can you please describe for us by number what the various markings

24 that you made on this map indicate, starting with number 1. And if you

25 can also point to them as you're describing what those markings indicate,

1 please.

2 A. Number 1, I think this is Dobrinja I locality, and Miroslava

3 Krleze Street. The arrow is pointing at -- I believe it's called Janka

4 Julovica Street. I think it is Janka.

5 Q. Do you know what the circle next to the number 2 represents?

6 A. Well, this here is an open area between Dobrinja I and Dobrinja

7 IV, and there was - and still is - a church which was under construction

8 then, an orthodox church.

9 Q. Did any of your investigations into sniping incidents lead you to

10 conclude that that church was the source of sniper fire?

11 A. Yes, that's right. On the bridge, there were a number of

12 incidents. I don't know how documented that is. But that's quite true,

13 there were some activities on the bridge; that is, inside the locality of

14 Dobrinja as you go from Dobrinja II to Dobrinja III.

15 Q. This bridge that you've mentioned, Mr. Sokolar, does this arrow

16 pointing next to the number 2, upwards and to the left, indicate the

17 location of that bridge?

18 A. Arrow number 2 points -- yes, indicates the bridge between these

19 two localities.

20 Q. Did you investigate sniping incidents involving persons who were

21 shot while they were crossing that bridge?

22 A. I did.

23 Q. Do you recall approximately how many such incidents involved

24 persons in the immediate vicinity of that bridge?

25 A. There were a number of incidents, both on the bridge and in the

1 open area between the streets Grada Bakua and other buildings. There

2 were some activities there on the corner of Grada Bakua Street. I'm

3 sorry I'm using the old names of the streets. Now they have all been

4 changed but I don't know what they are called.

5 Q. Mr. Sokolar, is there a circle with a number 3 in it anywhere on

6 this map?

7 A. Down here, on the left-hand side of the map.

8 Q. And what is the building next to the number 3 indicate?

9 A. This here, all the way downstream, a small river, I believe this

10 is the faculty of theology, and near the barracks.

11 Q. Mr. Sokolar, can you indicate to us or please tell us what the

12 circle with the number 4 indicates on this map.

13 A. There's something -- oh, here, number 4. I see. Number 4, this

14 could be the Aerodrom locality, that is, the buildings in the locality,

15 Aerodrom, airport.

16 Q. Is that the area that you referred to earlier as the airport

17 settlement?

18 A. That's right. It is in the immediate vicinity of the airport, and

19 that is where its called Aerodrom, airport.

20 Q. Did your investigations lead you to conclude that the area near

21 the number 4 was also the source of sniper fire?

22 A. Yes, from Aerodrom next to Danko Mitrov's building, and these

23 are small numbers, to the end of the building here. There was a parking

24 lot here, and from that direction, one could also, more or less, target

25 the area of our out-patient clinic, that is, hospital.

1 Q. Mr. Sokolar, what does the area marked by the number 5 in a circle

2 represent?

3 A. Five, I've just been explaining. This is a parking lot, and there

4 is some greenery between those buildings. And that is why, from the

5 Aerodrom locality, snipers could aim at this. And between the buildings

6 on Omladinskih, Radnih Brigada, near the hospital. That is number 5.

7 Q. Can you please tell us what number 6, which is immediately above

8 the 5, can you tell us what the number 6 indicates?

9 A. This here is illegible, but number 6 is at the exit from

10 Dobrinja. This here is illegible. I would say that this is 5, but this

11 here. Number 6, I found it.

12 Q. Yes. That is the exit from Dobrinja?

13 A. That's right. Exit from Dobrinja, exit from Dobrinja.

14 Q. Do you see a circle with the number 7 in it anywhere on the map?

15 A. That is in Dobrinja III.

16 Q. Do you see --

17 A. But, there's two places in Dobrinja III -- no. Dobrinja I, I see

18 Dobrinja III, I see number 7 in three different places here.

19 Q. Do you know what those number 7s indicate?

20 A. Number 7s are squares in the centre, residential blocks, which

21 also had atomic shelters. That's what we call them. These are

22 underground areas where ...

23 Q. These were underground Civil Protection, Civil Defence shelters?

24 A. Yes, that was their purpose, even though like before the war, some

25 of them were used as business outlets, small shops or something like

1 that. They were never used for their -- for what they had been originally

2 intended, only very little and at the beginning. But later on it was

3 destroyed and there were no lights or anything, so I do not think they

4 served a purpose.

5 Q. Mr. Sokolar, the investigations that you conducted into sniping,

6 did those investigations concern civilian victims or military

7 victims or both?

8 A. I'd like to mention, because I worked in the police, I did not

9 conduct an investigation outside in the area or along the demarcation line

10 where we would have military conscripts, rather, members of the BH army.

11 All the investigations I performed were in different settlements where one

12 had civilians, citizens. And in case of army members who happened to

13 suffer during the shelling, no, unless it happened during the time off

14 when they would be home. And I mean shelling now, if they would be here

15 and there, a military conscript, that is, a member of BH, amongst other

16 civilians. But this was usually -- but that was usually done by a

17 different commission.

18 Q. And did the shelling investigations that you conducted also follow

19 a similar type of methodology?

20 A. I don't understand the question.

21 Q. Would you receive perhaps a phone call from the hospital and you

22 would start by interviewing or speaking to the victims in the hospital?

23 A. Yes, same methodology.

24 Q. And then you would make an attempt to ascertain the source of the

25 shelling; is that correct?

1 A. Yes, indeed. The method that we used to pass information was

2 always the same; from the hospital, then collection of whatever

3 information, and then going out to the site. And if there were several

4 such places, then we would inform the headquarters so that we could have a

5 team with the investigating judge going out, and so on and so forth.

6 Q. And during 1993, if you recall, how frequently was the Dobrinja

7 area shelled?

8 A. Dobrinja was shelled on a number of occasions in 1993, but again,

9 it varied. At times there would be very frequent bouts of shelling, and

10 yet there would be also periods of time when there was no shelling.

11 Q. How about 1994, was the situation largely the same with respect to

12 shelling?

13 A. Yes, likewise in 1994. There were cases recorded when there were

14 shellings and many casualties.

15 Q. Thank you, Mr. Sokolar.

16 MR. MUNDIS: The Prosecution has no further questions at this

17 time, Mr. President.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Mundis.

19 Ms. Pilipovic, is the Defence ready to cross-examine the witness?

20 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Sokolar, you will now be examined by

22 Ms. Pilipovic who is Defence counsel for the accused.

23 Please proceed, Ms. Pilipovic.

24 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

25 Cross-examined by Ms. Pilipovic:

1 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Sokolar.

2 A. Good morning.

3 Q. Can you tell us if, between September 2000 and 8th of November,

4 1995, you gave two statements to OTP investigators?

5 A. Could you repeat the first year?

6 Q. Easy. You gave your first statement on the 8th of November, 1995,

7 and that statement you signed.

8 A. I made a statement.

9 Q. Thank you. Your second statement is of the 4th of September,

10 2000, and you signed that statement, too.

11 A. Yes, I did.

12 THE INTERPRETER: Will the counsel and the witness please break

13 between question and answer.

14 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. Thank you, Mr. Sokolar, yesterday you told us --

16 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, we have a technical problem. You are

17 both speaking the same language and that means that you respond

18 immediately to what Ms. Pilipovic asks you, but then the interpreters have

19 some difficulty in following this high-speed conversation, I would say.

20 So would you please look at your screen, wait until it stops moving so

21 then it has all been translated well into the transcript, and please then

22 answer. I'm quite sure that you'll forget about it and I'll remind you

23 then. That's what always happens.

24 Yes, please proceed.

25 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

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1 Q. Mr. Sokolar, you told us that you completed your education, that

2 you came out of the police school, that is, police academy at Vrace; is

3 that correct?

4 A. Yes, it is. I graduated from the school in 1983, in June. 1973,

5 excuse me.

6 Q. You didn't tell me that was the police school at Vrace. Was it or

7 wasn't it?

8 A. I apologise. I see it says 1983. 1973, and yes, it is in the

9 locality of Vrace.

10 Q. Thank you.

11 Yesterday, when answering my learned friend's questions, you said

12 that on the 1st of March, 1992, according to you, as a result of the

13 referendum and the murder of a member of a wedding party, of a Serb member

14 of a wedding party at Bascarsija, barricades had been put up in different

15 parts of the city of Sarajevo; is that correct?

16 A. It is. The referendum took place on the 1st of March, 1992, and

17 that day, I was in Dobrinja. But in the evening, I learned that that

18 member of the Serb wedding party was killed in Bascarsija, the old part of

19 the town. And at night, I believe that same evening -- well, not

20 barricades but some checkpoints, men with caps on their heads would put --

21 were posted on the -- at the crossroads, at the intersections, and with

22 automatic weapons.

23 Q. Did you know who those men were with caps on their heads at these

24 checkpoints as you call them?

25 A. Well, I did not go that way. I did not pass those checkpoints so

1 I had no opportunity to see those men. But at the places they were

2 posted, it was in the vicinity of areas with the Serb major so I presume

3 they were citizens of Serb ethnicity.

4 Q. Can you tell us, since you have now confirmed to us that it was an

5 assumption on your part that those checkpoints were in the areas where

6 there was a Serb majority and that they were therefore Serb barricades,

7 and what about the parts of the city where the Muslim majority were Serb

8 checkpoints or barricades put up there? I'm sure that you can give us a

9 more precise answer to that question?

10 A. In the part of the city where I lived and where I moved around,

11 even though I endeavoured to move as little as possible because of the

12 danger involved, there were also these checkpoints set up with masked

13 persons. I mean they had masks on their heads. I did not walk around

14 these areas. But in the Aleja Bosne Srebrene, near the barracks, at the

15 intersection of the -- Aleja Bosne Srebrene, and the highway from Stup,

16 then as you come out from Dobrinja to Mojmilo. And I never walked in the

17 direction of Rajlovac but I believe there was another checkpoint there

18 near the petrol station towards Rajlovac. I'm telling you I did not move

19 very much around because of the danger involved.

20 Q. Can you tell us, were Muslim barricades put up in parts of the

21 city?

22 A. Yes, I think so, in some places, but it was only to prohibit the

23 movement of persons on one side and on the other.

24 Q. Thank you. You worked for the law enforcement agency in the

25 city. Can you tell us, how did the police of the city of Sarajevo react?

1 Do you have any knowledge about that?

2 A. Until the 5th of May, until, that is, we all worked together,

3 policemen of Bosniak, Serb, and Croat ethnicity, we received reports from

4 citizens that cars were being seized or some sidearms, small arms, pistols

5 and things like that. But we could not really engage in solving those

6 cases because it was a major hazard, I mean going there and trying to help

7 those citizens.

8 Q. If I understand your answer properly, you have just told us

9 that --

10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] For the transcript, I believe

12 having heard, but I'm not quite sure, the witness mention the 5th of

13 April. Just a moment. And what I read in the transcript is the 5th of

14 May, so could the question please be asked once again in order to have the

15 transcript clarified. Thank you.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please.

17 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

18 Q. Witness, can you please tell us until when did the Sarajevo police

19 work together? When I say together, I mean Muslims and Serbs.

20 A. I believe it was until the 5th of April, 1992, and in the morning

21 they simply did not show up for work. So the number did come. I

22 apologise. Throughout the war, we had a certain number, albeit a small

23 number of Serb ethnicity, of Croat ethnicity, and also reserve force of

24 Serb and Croat ethnicity. But a relatively small number.

25 Q. Can you answer what was the reason for -- why did the police part

1 company along the ethnic lines? Was it preceded by a conflict, by some

2 division at Vrace in the school or something?

3 A. I'm not properly informed so I do not really know what happened in

4 the school at Vrace. I know there were some difficulties there. I know

5 that that evening at Krtelj there was a special police unit. There were

6 some -- there was some falling out. I don't know what really happened,

7 but I know that they simply parted company and that everybody seized

8 whatever property there was. That was at Krtelj, near the airport.

9 Q. You just told us there was a conflict in a special unit. Can I

10 understand that within the police force of the city of Sarajevo, or

11 perhaps at the republic level of the MUP, were there special units?

12 A. Yes, there were special units before the war. There were special

13 purpose units.

14 Q. Do you know whether it was also the case during the conflict in

15 Sarajevo? And the time I'm talking about is from April 1992, perhaps

16 March 1992, until, as far as we are concerned, September 1994. Do you

17 know about any activity of special units in the city of Sarajevo?

18 A. No, no. Because I was in Dobrinja, I know that on the 5th of

19 April, so the special unit fell apart. One part stayed in the city, and

20 the others left.

21 Q. Do you know whether a part of the special unit which stayed in the

22 city, do you know under whose control this unit was, whether under the

23 control of MUP or any individuals? Do you know anything about this?

24 A. I think it was under the control of the MUP, and then MUP was,

25 formationally speaking, under the BH army.

1 Q. When you say that MUP was later, formationally speaking, under the

2 BH army, do you think you can tell us in which period this was? And

3 again, I should remind you we're talking from April 1992 until September

4 1994.

5 A. I don't know. I cannot tell you exactly.

6 Q. Could you tell us if this special unit had any special purpose

7 when we're talking about sniping activity? Was this a sniping unit within

8 the MUP which was active in Sarajevo under the nickname of "Seva"?

9 A. Later on after the war I may have heard about it, but during the

10 war I haven't heard about it during the war. I have heard now in the

11 press, in the media that they are talking about these units. But during

12 the war I had no idea about the existence of such units.

13 Q. Thank you. Witness, you told us that in May 1992, your duty post

14 was a police station in Dobrinja from the 10th of May. I think that's

15 what I understood on this; is that correct?

16 A. Not from the 10th of May. I think it was the month afterwards,

17 June or July.

18 Q. Thank you. When you came to this duty post, where was it

19 exactly? And could you tell us how many people were employed in that

20 station?

21 A. The HQ was in a changed shop, which was a business premises, and

22 this became the offices. And the number varied. There were dozens of

23 people coming, going. There was not a permanent staff there.

24 Q. Could you tell us about this station. In which street in

25 Dobrinja, this business shop, this business premises as you say, where was

1 it?

2 A. It was in Nehruova Street, in the ground floor building where

3 there was a furniture showroom.

4 Q. Considering that we find it easier, if you'd tell us which part of

5 Dobrinja.

6 A. It was Dobrinja II.

7 Q. So it was Dobrinja II. So was there a hospital in Dobrinja II as

8 well?

9 A. Yes, a little below -- across the intersection, in the other

10 apartment blocks.

11 Q. Do you know whether in that part of Dobrinja there was also a

12 brigade, brigade HQ, the brigade that was in Dobrinja?

13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, just to clarify the

15 transcript, this has to do with Dobrinja II. I believe that was missed in

16 the transcript as pertaining to the answer of the witness.

17 I am talking about line 17 of page 23 where the number is not

18 present, but we did all hear Dobrinja II, including the interpreters.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I do understand that the furniture showroom was

20 in Dobrinja II. Mr. Sokolar, is that correct?

21 THE WITNESS: Yes, it was in Dobrinja II.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.

23 Please proceed, Ms. Pilipovic.

24 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

25 Q. Witness, since you told us about the location of the police

1 station where you worked, do you know whether in that part of Dobrinja,

2 there was also HQ of the 5th Motorised Brigade which was in Dobrinja?

3 A. They had units in all areas of the -- on the edge of Dobrinja, but

4 I don't know where their HQ was.

5 Q. Thank you. The 50 people who worked as policemen for Dobrinja,

6 could you tell us, what kind of equipment they had? You told us that you

7 were a plainclothes policeman, and were there also some of your colleagues

8 who were wearing uniforms?

9 A. Yes, it was all a mixture of colours really, of clothes. Also in

10 terms of uniforms, I said that a reserve force of the police had been

11 mobilised, so a number of policemen from November, that is, from the new

12 year, beginning of 1992, there were policemen who had blue uniforms,

13 thicker uniforms. And they wore them for a while, and then some of them

14 came in civilian clothes; some of them wore jeans or whatever they had.

15 Part uniform, part civilian. But it was a very small number really wore a

16 uniform. Mostly wore civilian clothes.

17 Q. Could you tell us whether they had been issued with weapons?

18 A. I believe that for a short period of time they had been issued

19 automatic rifles because this was what had been left over from before the

20 war. Formationally speaking, they should have been issued with these

21 kinds of weapons. But later on, they were not carrying these weapons.

22 Perhaps for a short period in 1992 they did wear -- they did carry the

23 weapons, and then they only with went automatic pistols.

24 Q. When you say for a short period in 1992, do you think you can tell

25 us exactly which period this was that your colleagues had been issued with

1 rifles?

2 A. I believe that this was only until about August. I don't think it

3 went on until September 1992. These are just the first two months, just

4 the beginning of the war clashes. And then later on, they wore -- they

5 had weapons because they were patrolling with other organs, and then they

6 just had pistols.

7 Q. Yesterday you told us about the police force in Dobrinja.

8 JUDGE ORIE: May I remind both of you to wait until the text stops

9 moving. I know it's very difficult but you are both violating the rules a

10 bit.

11 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. Thank

12 you. We will do our best.

13 Q. Could you tell us -- rather, yesterday you told us about the

14 reserve police force. Could you give us more details about what kind of

15 unit that was and under whose command they were?

16 A. I told you that the number of the people buried (as interpreted),

17 and I believe there were about 50 policemen. We had our superior whose

18 seat centre in Novi Grad, in Promeska Street (phoen) where there had been

19 a police station before the war. I think that -- I don't think, I know

20 that our managing official was Luban Milos, and then later on it was

21 Mr. Krivic.

22 Q. Could you tell us about the reserve police force, whether this

23 reserve police force had been issued equipment and weapons?

24 A. Yes. We had been issued.

25 Q. Could you give us an answer as to how many people made up the

1 reserve police force and what they had been issued in terms of weapons and

2 equipment?

3 A. As far as the equipment was concerned, there was no equipment.

4 They wore civilians clothes. And as -- in relation to weapons, I told you

5 already that they had automatic rifles the first two months, and then --

6 later on they just had pistols.

7 Q. In that period in 1992, that's what we're talking about, 1992, do

8 you know whether members of the reserve police force had taken part in

9 conflicts, in battles, on the battlefield in combat?

10 A. I arrived in Dobrinja in July, and I think there was a front line

11 already established. And whether members of the reserve police force had

12 been on the battlefield, I don't know. They could have been, because we

13 couldn't leave Dobrinja.

14 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, considering the

15 witness's answer to this question, the Defence would like to show the

16 witness one or two lines from his statement that the Defence has both in

17 English and in Serbian. This is a statement from the 4th of September,

18 2000. The Defence also has the version in English. We have eight copies.

19 I believe that we can also just give it to the interpreters. And the

20 number is 0156539, and the statement is from the 4th of September, 2000.

21 And that is part of the statement that the Defence would like to show to

22 the witness. This has to do with the witness's answer.

23 This is page 4 of the English version, and paragraph 6. The last

24 three lines.

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1 the interpreters' booths so that -- yes, please, Mr. Mundis.

2 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, my case manager has informed me that

3 we already provided these statements to the interpreters. When we call a

4 witness, we provide the statement to the interpreters.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. You are assisting. You may even have

6 double copies which is a great joy for me to establish.

7 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Ms. Pilipovic.

9 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Would you first like to show just the signature of

11 the witness. Because it's our procedure, Madam Registrar, that we do not

12 tender these things usually, just the few lines that are read, but we

13 first check whether this is the statement the witness signed. Would you

14 please, yes, show it to the witness, not read it, but just to identify

15 whether this is the document containing his statement that he signed.

16 Mr. Sokolar, do you recognise your --

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

18 JUDGE ORIE: -- signature on it? Please return it to

19 Ms. Pilipovic. Ms. Pilipovic, please confront the witness with the part

20 you would like to show him. Please proceed.

21 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

22 Q. Witness, in the part of the statement that I will quote to you,

23 and this part is the last paragraph, you say: "There were about 50 or 60

24 civilian reserves. Initially between April and September 1992, the

25 reserve police were sent to the front lines. I didn't go to the front

1 line because we were short of weapons. About four or five policemen were

2 killed defending Dobrinja."

3 You answered my question when I asked you, you said you did not

4 know. In 2000, in September, you said that the reserve police force, in

5 April to September 1992, had been sent to the front. Do you think you

6 could tell us what is the truth?

7 A. When you said battlefield, front, I really meant outside of

8 Sarajevo. However, all this happened before I arrived in Dobrinja. The

9 reserve policemen were patrolling the edges of Dobrinja, and in a certain

10 sense they were defending their own homes. In that sense, they were

11 participating in the war. They were defending their homes. If you can

12 call that a battlefield, a front, then it is so.

13 Q. Witness, I was just reading what you had stated. Thank you.

14 So now we agree that there were about 50 or 60 civilian reserve

15 policemen who were in reserves an who had taken part in May -- in April,

16 in the battles around Dobrinja; is that correct?

17 A. Until I arrived, there were already established there, they were

18 probably on the edges. Not probably, they were on the edges of Dobrinja.

19 And that's how the demarcation line had been established. On one side

20 there was one police and on the other side there was the other police,

21 and that's how the demarcation line was established.

22 Q. So from your answer, I can conclude that in April and in May,

23 considering you said you arrived in June in Dobrinja, that it was in that

24 part in Dobrinja that demarcation lines, confrontation lines, had been

25 established, and that these lines had divided Dobrinja as you just

1 explained it. You said there were police on one side and police on the

2 other side. Did I understand you correctly?

3 A. Not just the police. There were also citizens who later on became

4 part of the BH army. These were citizens. This was a self-organising of

5 people. Perhaps it was only 10, 15 reservists. And then there was a

6 division between Dobrinja IV and Dobrinja III, and Dobrinja I, and then

7 our part of Dobrinja I so to speak, and on the other side of Nedzarici.

8 Yes, the division came to be in this place -- in this way. The police was

9 patrolling in Dobrinja, and this is how the division happened.

10 Q. Could you tell us about the demarcation lines that were

11 established in April, May 1992. In the course of 1992, 1993, until

12 September of 1994, did they change or did they remain as they were

13 established then? Do you have any knowledge of that? Was there combat?

14 Were there clashes?

15 A. Only a small part behind Dobrinja V. I think that the main lines

16 shifted a little. But this was more army -- against the army. Perhaps

17 between Nedzarici and Dobrinja V. But in other parts, these were

18 apartment blocks. No, no, the lines did not shift. There was no

19 significant shifting of lines.

20 Q. Thank you. In the period until 1994, I mean from the moment until

21 you arrived in Dobrinja to the police station, could you tell us whether

22 apart from the police that had weapons, whether other people or perhaps

23 units who were also moving in that part of town and that were also armed?

24 You're a policeman so you're probably quite well informed. I wonder

25 whether you can give us an answer to this.

1 A. Considering that there were few weapons, most of the weapons were

2 probably on the front lines, in these buildings. So inside Dobrinja

3 itself, I never saw people in large groups with weapons.

4 Q. When you say that you didn't see people in large groups, what do

5 you mean by a large group of people?

6 A. A unit, from one part of Dobrinja to another part of Dobrinja.

7 I'm talking I would see two or three people, policemen. Inside -- inside

8 Dobrinja, I did not see large groups of people.

9 Q. When you say "large groups of people," a large unit, what do you

10 mean? Were there smaller groups of people that were armed and were

11 present in Dobrinja? Have you had reports that these groups may have been

12 mistreating citizens or carrying out burglaries of apartments? Have you

13 heard any such information? I will remind you. Was there a group that

14 was under the control of Juka Prazina, Caco, Dr. Loncarevic? Do you know

15 any such information?

16 A. I worked on crime prevention and I worked on burglaries, I worked

17 on robberies. But in that period, I could only talk to people and

18 investigate and interview people, citizens who were not members of the

19 armed forces. In fact, I spoke with only underage people and women who

20 were not military conscripts.

21 Q. Could you tell us under whose control the reserve police was in

22 the area of Dobrinja in the period from April/May 1992? And I mean the

23 reserve police force that we agreed had taken part in battles. Under

24 whose control were they?

25 A. Until I arrived, the main person in charge was Mr. Krivic, Malik

1 Krivic. And then people changed, people were transferred. They were

2 transferred for all kinds of reasons. So in these units, smaller units, I

3 don't know, until I arrived. But later on, during the war, after I

4 arrived, I found Mirko Lovric who was of Croatian ethnicity. He was in

5 Dobrinja for about two to three years to follow.

6 Q. When you tell us about these smaller units that were in

7 neighbourhoods, how many people made up these smaller units, and how come

8 they were based in the neighbourhoods?

9 A. I believe this was in the settlement of Buca Potok, in Alipasino

10 Polje, and I can't quite remember. These were smaller units just like in

11 Dobrinja.

12 Q. Do you have any information or knowledge whether -- in what kinds

13 of facilities these units were based in those parts of town? Were these

14 business premises? Were these apartment blocks?

15 A. I think that it was only in Alipasino Polje that there was a --

16 that their base was in the ground floor apartment block, but I don't know

17 about this. I was in Dobrinja so I don't really know where exactly they

18 were based. I don't know.

19 Q. Today, or perhaps yesterday, to the question of my colleague, you

20 said that the police in Dobrinja, that is, your unit, reported to the Novi

21 Grad station. Did I understand you correctly? You said that that was the

22 security service -- public security centre of Novi Grad; is that correct?

23 A. Yes, we had to report to the centre. But it's not the centre of

24 public security; this is the public security station, Novi Grad.

25 Q. So you sent your reports to the public security station in Novi

1 Grad. Do you have any information to whom the Novi Grad public security

2 station reported? Who was then their immediate superior to whom

3 the reports went?

4 A. Probably to a higher instance, it would have been the CSB,

5 Security Services Centre. Yes, that's it.

6 Q. Could you tell us, when you were sending your reports to the Novi

7 Grad station, what did your report consist of, and when did you send

8 that? How many times a day? Was it a daily report, was it a weekly

9 report, or was it a monthly report? And what exactly did it consist of?

10 A. I would like you to tell me, clarify exactly what kind of report

11 you mean. I sent these official reports that you were able to see. I

12 also sent official reports if I identified a perpetrator, and then I would

13 send it to the public security station, and then they would send it on.

14 Official notes.

15 Q. Who did you send the official notes to, and how often?

16 A. The official notes, if there was an incident, a wounding incident

17 or a shelling incident, so during the day, on that afternoon, for

18 instance, if I was able to or the following day, if it was technically

19 possible, if there was no electricity or the fax wasn't working, then I

20 would have to do it the following day. I didn't send any weekly reports

21 or any monthly reports.

22 Q. So you sent official notes and you told us about what they

23 contained. You then sent those to the Novi Grad station. Do you know to

24 whom the Novi Grad station sent these reports or these official notes that

25 you compiled?

1 A. I am repeating: I would send to my superior, to my station, and I

2 presume that they would then send that to the security services station in

3 the town, to the centre. It's not within my realm of competence to decide

4 to whom it would go. I would do my official note, send it to my centre.

5 And then which part would then go to the CSB or which one would remain

6 there, I don't know.

7 Q. Thank you, Witness.

8 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I can see that it is

9 time for a break.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you very much, Ms. Pilipovic.

11 We'll adjourn until 11.00. But before we leave this courtroom,

12 I'll just give you a bit of my bookkeeping. I think the

13 examination-in-chief took approximately one hour and 50 minutes. I

14 think you are now 40 minutes so it's -- you are not at your time yet, but

15 just to remind everyone that we are keeping our time limits rather strict.

16 We adjourn until 11.00.

17 --- Recess taken at 10.31 a.m.

18 --- On resuming at 11.00 a.m.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please, Mr. Usher.

20 Once the witness has been brought in the courtroom, you may

21 proceed with the cross-examination, Ms. Pilipovic.

22 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

23 Q. Witness, before the break, we were talking about the official

24 notes that you made. You said you submitted a note to the Novi Grad

25 station, and that you assume they forwarded them on but you, I think, said

1 that you didn't know who it was that sent them on. Can you please confirm

2 if I interpreted your words right?

3 A. Yes, you did.

4 Q. Can you tell us if you have any -- are you aware that in April,

5 May, or June 1992 a state of war was proclaimed or a state of imminent

6 danger of war in Sarajevo? Do you have any knowledge of that?

7 A. The referendum for the independence of Bosnia-Herzegovina was on

8 the 1st of March. On the 5th or 6th of April, Bosnia-Herzegovina was

9 recognised by the United Nations, and I think that sometime in April or --

10 maybe I'm not quite sure. Yes, that's quite true, the imminent danger of

11 war was proclaimed.

12 Q. But can you tell us what when, what month?

13 A. I don't know. Was it after the recognition by the United Nations

14 in April? I don't know, I'm not ...

15 Q. Did you, in the course of your work in the Dobrinja

16 station, have any knowledge that because that specific body was set up in

17 Dobrinja following the proclamation of the imminent danger of war

18 involving members of the Civil Defence, police reserve forces, so on and

19 so forth, and that body was then put in charge of organising the defence;

20 or to organise because the imminent danger of war was proclaimed? Was

21 anybody set up or did everybody there act separately? Do you know

22 anything about that?

23 A. In the beginning, people organised themselves, and I don't mean

24 only Dobrinja, with the help of the police. They stayed there in

25 Dobrinja. But I didn't quite get your meaning. What organisation do you

1 have in mind?

2 Q. I'm asking you whether there was a body in charge. Was it within

3 the Civil Defence?

4 A. Yes, there was a Civil Defence staff.

5 Q. And what about the municipal authorities? Were they operational

6 at the time? Do you have any idea?

7 A. Well, the municipality was in a different part of the city -- I

8 mean the Novi Grad municipality, and it was in working order. But what

9 bodies were really operational at that time, I really do not know. As I

10 told you already, we seldom could get from the municipality to other parts

11 of the city.

12 Q. So you mostly discharged different duties in your locality.

13 Can you tell us, since you were a member of the police and that

14 you were issued with a pistol when on duty, are you a policeman or are you

15 a civilian regardless of what kind of clothes you're wearing?

16 A. I was issued with a pistol, with just a sidearm, but I carried it

17 very seldom. If I did, I would have it in a special holder. And how did

18 I feel? Well, I felt like a civilian since I was not in a uniform though

19 I worked in the police.

20 Q. You said that you did not know exactly where was the headquarters

21 of the BH army in Dobrinja. During your work and movement throughout

22 Dobrinja, would you come across soldiers who were members of the BH army?

23 A. For two or three years, but those were groups of men in civilian

24 clothes so that you couldn't say really. And towards the end of the war,

25 I would see threesomes or foursomes, uniforms, moving through Dobrinja,

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1 moving around.

2 Q. And those groups of armed men that you saw in Dobrinja, what was

3 the relationship between those groups of men and you as a policeman

4 responsible for law enforcement, for law and order and crime suppression?

5 Did you have any communication with them? Did you approve their conduct?

6 A. I repeat that I was not responsible for them. Not even the

7 uniform part of the police were in charge of these men. We never

8 conducted any investigation on the front line where army members perished.

9 That was simply outside our terms of reference.

10 Q. When you say in that part of Dobrinja, when it comes to the army,

11 there was the military security in place?

12 A. Well, I guess so.

13 Q. Can you tell us, who was the commander of the military security in

14 Dobrinja?

15 A. I can't.

16 Q. Do you know if, in 1992, 1993, 1994, there was in Dobrinja a unit

17 commanded by a man nicknamed Dedo, and that that unit was under the BH

18 army's control? Do you know anything about that?

19 THE INTERPRETER: The witness indicates with his head that he

20 doesn't.

21 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. You, as a policeman, can you tell us if -- when incidents happened

23 as those sniper incidents or shelling incidents as my learned friend asked

24 you, did you always go out to conduct an on-site investigation?

25 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters did not hear the witness's

1 answer.

2 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. You told us --

4 JUDGE ORIE: The interpreters could not hear the answer to your

5 last question, Ms. Pilipovic. Could you please repeat the question or

6 invite the witness to repeat his answer.

7 Perhaps I'll read the question again to you. The question

8 was: "You, as a policeman, can you tell us if -- when incidents happened

9 as those sniper incidents or shelling incidents as my learned friend asked

10 you, did you always go out to conduct an on-site investigation?" That was

11 the question of which we could not hear the answer.

12 Would you always go out?

13 A. Situation permitting. That is, I could do on some occasions in

14 case of shelling, depending on the position of buildings and so on and so

15 forth. That is, if it was safe enough, then I would go to the site. If

16 it was a sniper incident, then I would come close to the place, 10, 15

17 metres, perhaps, away from the site of the incident to see the location,

18 to see the site where a person had been victimised. I wouldn't expose

19 myself to danger by going to the very same place. I would be somewhere in

20 the vicinity.

21 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. Can you tell us if -- can you tell us if you keep your own archive

23 for 1992, 1993, 1994 specifically?

24 A. You mean my only personal?

25 Q. I'm asking you about the official notes that you made.

1 A. No, I did not keep the official notes. And since I've retired

2 since, I have none of those documents.

3 Q. Can you please tell us, what was your duty during an investigation

4 on site?

5 A. My duty when investigating on site was to establish the direction

6 in which the victim had been moving, the direction from which the

7 projectile had come, rather, where the person had been injured, to

8 establish the location of buildings and other circumstances. It varied

9 from one case to the other.

10 Q. Can you tell us, in 1992, 1993, 1994, whilst engaged in these

11 duties, could you tell us, how many such cases did you have? How many

12 such investigations did you conduct?

13 A. In 1992, I did not do it, nor in the beginning of 1993. It was

14 only as of mid-1993, I think, that I started conducting these

15 investigations. And the number, I've already said here that there were

16 days when there would be two or three instances, and then four or five

17 days would pass without any investigation. But even during the

18 ceasefires, perhaps a longer time might elapse between two incidents. I

19 can't really remember it all.

20 Q. Witness, I will remind you in your statement of the 4th of

21 September, 2001, on page 4 of the B/C/S version - in the English version,

22 it is page 6 - second passage, and I'll read it out to you. You said

23 that: "During the war, I made well over 200 forensic investigations

24 concerning the shelling and sniping incidents in the area of Dobrinja."

25 Is this accurate, what you said here?

1 A. Well, it's slightly with the translation here. I was present

2 at about 200 investigations, because I wasn't always there all by myself.

3 But I've already said when there will be more casualties, whether dead or

4 wounded, that I would be a team, an investigating team, and I believe

5 there was quite a number of such instances.

6 Q. Can you tell us, according to you, as a man engaged in such

7 investigations, what do you understand by "forensic investigation"?

8 A. I do not know -- I cannot speak English, but I think that in

9 translation it means some expert analysis. We call it criminal

10 investigation. But this is not -- this was not up to me. All that I did

11 was collect the data about the injured, the location of buildings, of the

12 victim, things like that. And I would assist other members of the team

13 when a team was out. So I did not conduct any criminal forensic

14 investigation.

15 Q. But would you agree that forensic investigation means judicial

16 investigation, when there is a forensic pathologist, an investigating

17 judge and all the other experts? Were such investigations conducted

18 during that period of time, in 1992, 1993, 1994? Do you know anything

19 about that?

20 A. Yes, there were such investigations.

21 Q. Now, you, when you said that you would usually be on your own, or

22 at times with a team, would you draw a sketch of the incident site or take

23 photographs of the scene of the incident?

24 A. No, I did not make any sketches or photographs because that is

25 part of the job of the criminal investigation assistants. In a certain

1 matter, I would visually inspect the site and then write the official

2 note. But this was done only in case of woundings. And in more serious

3 cases, a whole team would come out. As for the photographs, we didn't

4 have things to photograph with, cameras or anything, at least in Dobrinja.

5 I suppose that at the city level they did have some.

6 Q. So when drawing up your official notes, you would never measure

7 the distances, that is, from the place from which the shot came from?

8 A. No. No, I did not make any measurements. I would merely

9 determine the direction on the basis of the victim's posture and location

10 of the buildings. The distances, no, I did not measure them.

11 Q. From what I can gather about your role, when drawing up the

12 official notes, you were not an eyewitness to these events, were you?

13 A. I wasn't the eyewitness. When somebody would be injured, I would

14 turn up after the event, either to the scene or after the person had been

15 brought to the hospital. I wasn't an eyewitness to these incidents.

16 Q. But prior to you going out to the scene where it was said that an

17 incident had happened, would you have before that an interview with

18 victims in the hospital?

19 A. In a certain number of cases, if the persons were in such a state,

20 I would exchange a couple of sentences with the victims in Dobrinja to

21 merely establish the direction of movement. Of course, if the victim was

22 able to speak. If not, then I would talk to the hospital personnel. Or,

23 for instance, if the person had been taken to the city, to the hospital in

24 Kosevo, then I would simply go out to the scene of the incident and

25 collect information.

1 Q. From your answer, I understand that information about the scene of

2 the incident and the place or rather the direction from which - how shall

3 I put it - the fire came from, that this information you collected, you

4 obtained from the victim; is that it?

5 A. I said in a certain number of cases, I would speak to the injured

6 person in the Dobrinja hospital. But with a certain number, I didn't.

7 Q. As a person engaged in these duties, can you confirm to us whether

8 those official notes that you made were drawn up duly, properly, as they

9 should be drawn up? You told us also that you made no sketches, no

10 photographs, took no measurements. Were, then, those official notes

11 credible? Did they reflect properly the scene of the -- the scene which

12 you attended to?

13 A. As it is -- it was a larger number of notes, one couldn't draw up

14 the conventional record of the investigation, so this was the brief as

15 possible record, without adding measurements or something. And in various

16 instances where one could not make any measurements because of the danger

17 involved. One goes out to the site and stays there the shortest time

18 possible because there was always a danger from repeated shelling or

19 sniping. So I would go out there, see it, and then put it on paper. Of

20 course, in line with my knowledge, with my experience, with my expertise.

21 Q. You told us today that you received a criminal complaint regarding

22 an incident which happened in May, that you were shown an official note,

23 that is, an official note of the 25th of May, 1994. In this official

24 note, you noted that a bus had been hit. Did you see that bus, about

25 which you claim it was at a bus stop in the street of Nikole Demonje

1 Street?

2 A. I already said that I did not find that bus there because the bus

3 had left the scene. Whether taken away, the victims or somebody. I told

4 you already it wasn't on the scene. It had gone to the base or to the

5 depot where buses are parked.

6 Q. And after you received the information about the incident, and you

7 said that a bus had gone to the depot, did you that day or some other day,

8 did you go there to the depot and see the bus, and did you take note of

9 the damage done to the bus, or rather the exact location of the damage?

10 A. I did not go in the days that followed to the depot because it is

11 in a different part of the Novi Grad municipality, but I believe that my

12 colleagues who worked near the depot went there. Whether they drafted a

13 report or something or whether they took any forensic experts, I do not

14 know. I wrote my note, I notified them, and then they took whatever

15 further steps.

16 Q. From your official note which you had an opportunity to see, I

17 will read out to you that you said that the bus had been hit in the front

18 right wheel. On the basis of what information, since you told us that you

19 had not seen the bus, on the basis of what did you then submit to us this

20 note and say that it was the right front wheel?

21 A. On the basis of the conversation with my colleagues over the

22 telephone who told me that they had come out and established this. I

23 did not see the bus.

24 Q. Can you tell us --

25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President.

1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] In view of the legal

3 importance which this fact could have with regard to this hearing, I

4 should like to indicate to the Chamber, because this is a very

5 contradictory statement, that this witness has indicated just a moment ago

6 on page 9, line 5, and this is a little bit after the place where the

7 witness -- line 7, to be more precise, where the witness -- I'm referring

8 you to line 7, if you will look at the answer about the tyre, about the

9 damage done to the tyre.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, you are commenting on the witness

11 statement, which is not what you're supposed to do during

12 cross-examination. Whatever questions may be asked, you may tell your

13 colleague to confront the witness with an earlier part of his testimony in

14 court. But it's not for counsel who is not cross-examining the witness

15 to interfere and comment on what are things to look at specifically by

16 this Chamber concerning this examination.

17 Would you please keep that in mind. Of course, you can cooperate

18 with lead counsel as you wish, but this is not what we actually understand

19 by cross-examining the witness.

20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I'm sorry, Mr. President. It

21 is merely to help the Chamber.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Ms. Pilipovic.

23 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

24 Q. So, Witness, are you telling us now that in the official note you

25 said that the front wheel had been hit on the basis of the information

1 received from your colleagues?

2 A. That's right. On the basis of the conversation that I had with my

3 colleagues, and on that basis, I wrote my note; in what form I do not

4 know. But I believe it says "wheel," and that the bullet ricochetted.

5 Whether it was in the area of the wheel, I do not know. I'm telling you

6 that I did not inspect the bus because it had left the scene.

7 Q. Can you tell us, when did you get this information from your

8 colleagues?

9 A. I believe it was the next day.

10 THE INTERPRETER: We cannot hear the witness's answer.

11 A. I believe it was the next day because --

12 THE INTERPRETER: One of the microphones is switched off or the

13 witness did not say anything.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, the interpreters have difficulties in hearing

15 you. Perhaps, Mr. Sokolar, if you do not lean too far backwards, then

16 you are closer to the microphone and the interpreters will be better able

17 to hear you.

18 Please proceed.

19 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. Witness, can you tell us, on the basis of what -- on the basis of

21 what parameters did you establish, since you told us that you had not

22 taken any measurements, photographs, or sketches, on the basis of what did

23 you establish that the projectile that hit the bus came from the locality

24 of Nedzarici?

25 A. Well, after I went to the hospital and gathered the information

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1 that was already mentioned about the victim and the type of injury, I came

2 out. I went out to the scene where the bus had stopped after entering

3 Dobrinja, and I took note -- I took visual note of the scene, of the

4 location of the buildings, established that a bullet had come from the

5 right, that is, from the direction of Nedzarici, because my colleagues had

6 told me over telephone that the bus had been hit on its right-hand side

7 next to the wheel. Perhaps it wasn't the wheel. Perhaps it was my

8 mistake when I said wheel. It could have been wheel or the area around

9 the wheel.

10 Q. Witness, how do you explain, then, the fact that the official note

11 was drawn up on the 25th of May and that it said that it was written that

12 day, and now you tell us that the information about the incident as

13 regards the place where the bus was hit you received the next day from

14 your colleagues? Can you explain that? Would you allow that you drew

15 up this official note later?

16 A. The official note was written either on that day or the following

17 day, but it has -- it bears the date of that day so that we could have

18 easier administration of these notes.

19 Q. So you will allow for the possibility that the official notes of

20 this type, that these notes that you compiled, you and your colleagues as

21 well, that these notes could have been compiled later, after the event or

22 after the incident was reported? So after receiving the information.

23 A. I cannot remember the exact time of the day. It could have

24 happened that I may have been informed on the same day by the colleagues.

25 Whether the bus may have been hit in the morning, I don't quite remember

1 now. But it could have happened that it was in the afternoon that I was

2 informed, and then I wrote the official note. I cannot quite recall now.

3 Q. Since you had your conversation, I believe that I'm correct that

4 you spoke to the victims -- the victims who were on the bus on the

5 critical day. Do you know at which height were the injuries located on

6 the bodies of the people who were on that bus? Do you have this

7 information?

8 A. I'm sorry, I don't understand. What height do you mean?

9 Q. In relation to their bodies, how high on their bodies were

10 the injuries?

11 A. After I spoke to the victims, I believe that I came to the

12 conclusion that they had already sat down on the bus and that they were

13 injured in the area of the upper leg. I believe that one victim had one

14 leg injury and the other one had both legs injured, as far as I can

15 recall.

16 Q. When you spoke to them, did you establish whether they were

17 sitting or standing at the time?

18 A. I'm sorry. There were many cases, and I really cannot remember

19 because of time that has lapsed. I don't have that ability to remember

20 all the dates and all the victims, because many things happened. Really,

21 I cannot answer that question.

22 Q. Could you perhaps answer the question whether in that period,

23 while you were doing your work, do you know whether from the parts of

24 Dobrinja - and I believe that we have by now established that Dobrinja had

25 been divided into Dobrinja I, II, III, IV, and Dobrinja I and IV were

1 under the control of the Republika Srpska army, and then Dobrinja II, III,

2 and V and part of Dobrinja 1 were under the control of the BH army - do

3 you know whether in these parts of Dobrinja there was firing and sniping

4 activity in the direction of Nedzarici, Dobrinja I and Dobrinja IV? Do

5 you have any information, any knowledge of that?

6 A. In the direction -- from the direction of Dobrinja IV -- I'm

7 sorry, you've just confused me with this question.

8 Q. Whether from Dobrinja I, II, III, and V, I mean part of

9 Dobrinja I, was there firing from weapons or sniping activity, or from

10 mortars, from those parts of Dobrinja in this activity in the direction of

11 Dobrinja IV and parts of Dobrinja I and to Nedzarici? These were

12 parts, as we have agreed, these were parts of town which were under the

13 control of Republika Srpska army. Do you have information or knowledge

14 about the combat or firing from those parts of town towards Nedzarici,

15 Dobrinja IV, and parts of Dobrinja I in 1992, 1993, and 1994?

16 A. Yes. Well, there were combat operations, but this was from the

17 edges, on the confrontation line, on the demarcation line, and it was well

18 known in which some apartment blocks there were BH army members and then

19 the Republika Srpska army members. But this was on the edges. Of course

20 there was an exchange of fire but it was on the edges, not inside.

21 Q. In relation to the demarcation line towards Nedzarici, could you

22 tell us which edge parts were under the control of the BH army in relation

23 to the demarcation line towards Nedzarici?

24 A. These were buildings Oktobarske Revolucije Street and Danka

25 Mitrova Street. These are buildings on the rim, on the edge. But also

1 towards Nedzarici, there were also houses, smaller houses, maybe one or

2 two floors where Bosniak citizens lived. And further down, there was a

3 demarcation line. So there were no apartment blocks, but it was further,

4 deeper into the settlement.

5 Q. Could you tell us, what was the distance between -- on the line of

6 the demarcation? What was the distance between the two warring lines?

7 A. I'm sorry, I don't know unfortunately because I wasn't there.

8 When it was apartment block, apartment block, then there was a demarcation

9 line. But inside the settlement, I did not really have access because

10 there were combat operations and I cannot really go there.

11 Q. Did you have any opportunity after Dayton was signed to go to

12 Nedzarici?

13 A. In which part? You mean the one that was under the control of the

14 BH or the -- in both parts? Yes, I did.

15 Q. Could you tell us what was the state of these buildings?

16 A. They were destroyed, partial. Some of them were complete or

17 partially destroyed.

18 Q. Could we agree that in both parts, that is, in both parts of the

19 city - and I'm talking about this part of town, this part of the city, so

20 the part that was under the control of the BH army as well as the part

21 that was under the control of the Republika Srpska army - that these parts

22 of that part of the city were equally destroyed on both sides?

23 A. Yes, but where the BH army was, there were more destroyed than on

24 the other side. I mean there was more damage on the side of -- they were

25 more destroyed on the BH army side.

1 Q. Could we conclude from that answer that in that part of town,

2 there was frequent fighting?

3 A. Yes, yes, there was fighting.

4 Q. You told us today that the church had not been completed, had not

5 been finished. Could you tell us a little more about this? What does

6 this mean? Could you perhaps describe specifically? In 1992, 1993, and

7 1994, was this church in the process of being built, and at which stage

8 had it arrived?

9 A. The church was built, and there was scaffolding around, so that's

10 why I am saying it was still under construction. But it was built. There

11 was just scaffolding. You could see the scaffold from the part of

12 Dobrinja under Bosnian control, we could see the scaffolding. It was

13 construction scaffolding.

14 Q. Could you see from which part of Dobrinja, you just said under

15 Bosnian control, you can see this church?

16 A. The church can be seen from the part of Dobrinja anywhere where

17 you're crossing from Dobrinja II to Dobrinja III. There are three

18 bridges; one is larger for vehicles, and then there are two for

19 pedestrians. And yes, further down below, I cannot quite remember but I

20 believe that you can see it -- the church -- you can see also from another

21 bridge which wasn't operational. You can see it from there. It was a

22 traffic bridge.

23 Q. Could you tell us, considering that Dobrinja River flows through

24 Dobrinja, looking towards the church, how many bridges are there in

25 Dobrinja that go across -- how many bridges are there that go across the

1 river, considering that you've lived there for a long time and that you

2 moved around that part of town quite a lot?

3 A. Is it necessary to list all of the bridges in the whole of

4 Dobrinja? There was a large bridge on the confrontation line, and there

5 was also where the buses turned, and then there was a bridge where

6 there was a confrontation line where nobody moved. Then there was another

7 bridge, and this was from the Emile Zola Street on to the square. Then

8 number 3, there was a bridge for the traffic, the buses, when the buses

9 could go, when it was possible. And then there was another pedestrian

10 bridge between Dobrinja II and Dobrinja III. And then the third bridge

11 which wasn't operational, and this was also for vehicles, this was in two

12 directions towards Nedzarici. But in Nedzarici there was a newly-built

13 bridge which was under the control of the Republika Srpska army, and

14 this was further down below. So yes, I've given you all the bridges.

15 Q. Thank you, Witness.

16 Could you tell us in what way and whether these bridges were

17 protected, as far as you can recall.

18 A. I think that when these victims had been hit, I can't quite

19 remember, but I don't think they were protected. But I think later on

20 there was some protection. On the large bridge for the traffic, and then

21 ongoing from the street, Emile Zola Street, the larger one was protected

22 as well as the bridge from the hospital towards Dobrinja III. So

23 partially this third bridge closer to Nedzarici was also protected. These

24 were protections that were put up during the war, but when they were

25 exactly put up, I cannot tell you.

1 Q. Could you describe for us what kind of protection that was?

2 Specifically, I am asking you about the bridge Emile Zola and also the

3 bridge Dobrinja II and Dobrinja III?

4 A. Emile Zola bridge was not protected because it was closer to the

5 confrontation line, and the one further down was protected with large

6 concrete blocks, with large containers. I can't quite remember. There

7 were many different types of protection. In any case, these were concrete

8 slabs. Some of them were even 2 metres by 5 metres, maybe up to 5 metres

9 high. I think later on they were protected. That was the large bridge.

10 But the Emile Zola bridge was not protected.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, may I remind you, as I said before the

12 break, that you did not yet use the similar time as the Prosecution did.

13 Now you certainly did. I didn't want to remind you earlier, but could you

14 please give us an indication on how much time you still need?

15 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation Your Honour, I will ask another

16 two questions, and then if you'll allow it, my colleague will also have

17 two questions. We'll be very brief.

18 Q. Witness, could you tell us, if you know, how many people were

19 employed at the Security Services Centre in Sarajevo? Do you have that

20 information?

21 A. That number varied. I know that in Dobrinja there were about 50

22 people. How many were there in the centre of the town, I don't know.

23 Q. Would you agree with me that the official notes that you compiled

24 at the time that you went out to the site of incidents were official notes

25 that you drew up according to some of your personal observations?

1 A. Yes, in some cases. This was just for the purpose of recording

2 all the incidents. It was technically not possible to do it if you paid

3 attention to every single detail. You need an expert, you need a team to

4 put -- as you said yourself, all those technical details, forensic

5 details. This was just to go out to a site, short description, visual

6 distance, position, movement, direction. No, I did not measure distance,

7 not in metres anyway.

8 Q. So you agree with me that a team going to a site, really we should

9 have a ballistic expert present, and if there was shelling, for instance,

10 in question, in order to have some more precise data?

11 A. Yes, of course. Expert teams would go out on the sites, and a

12 ballistic expert, forensic expert, also technical staff. Yes,

13 professionally that's how it would have to be done.

14 Q. One more question, please. As far as you can recall after the

15 incident that happened in Dobrinja on the 4th of February, 1994, when the

16 shelling happened of the queue for water, as far as you can recall, from

17 that date, was there shelling in Dobrinja in 1994? Do you remember, or

18 there weren't any?

19 A. On the 4th of February, I was -- I was wounded, and it wasn't a

20 water queue, but I believe that in those premises, humanitarian help was

21 being administered opposite to where I was working. It was in the other

22 part of Dobrinja, and there were three or four shells that landed. I was

23 wounded. And after that 4th of February, yes, there was shelling. In

24 1994?

25 Q. Yes.

1 A. Yes, there was shelling afterwards. What kind of shelling do you

2 mean?

3 Q. Specifically in Dobrinja where you lived.

4 A. Yes. Even after that February 1994, there was shelling.

5 Q. Could you tell us, according to your memory, some locations?

6 A. 15th of July, in C5 block, in 1993. The 1st of June, Dobrinja

7 III. I really cannot remember. After that date, some more significant

8 incidents where there were many victims. If investigations were

9 conducted, probably colleagues went to do these on-site investigations. I

10 cannot quite remember after that date. Then there was a long period that

11 came up to -- running up to Dayton. And I really cannot remember.

12 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Witness, and thank you,

13 Your Honour, for the time that I took up.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Ms. Pilipovic.

15 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, you have additional questions?

16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] If the Chamber will authorise

17 me, yes, I will ask very brief questions.

18 JUDGE ORIE: If you have a few brief questions, that's fine. If

19 you could do it just as efficiently as Ms. Pilipovic did, the Chamber

20 would be very happy.

21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I will try and do even better

22 if that is possible.

23 Cross-examined by Mr. Piletta-Zanin:

24 Q. [Interpretation] Witness, hello, and thank you for being here.

25 You established in one of your statements, your written statements, that

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1 you knew that the Bosnian Army had their HQ in Dobrinja; is that correct?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Thank you. On the other hand, you said that you did not know

4 where the HQ in Dobrinja was; is that correct?

5 A. I said that this was by units, by companies in Dobrinja I, II, in

6 C5, the airport settlement. There were smaller units, smaller groups. I

7 never saw that -- there was no barracks, there was no place where they all

8 came to.

9 Q. Very well. Witness, I understand that there were detachments in

10 each one of all the Dobrinjas that we know about; is that correct?

11 A. Yes, companies, smaller units.

12 Q. Thank you. You just told me that there were no barracks, and I

13 think I understood you correctly there were no barracks in any of the four

14 or five Dobrinjas that we know about; is that correct?

15 A. Whether they had anything near the confrontation line, the

16 demarcation line, I don't know whether they had barracks there, whether

17 they had, I don't know. But within, inside Dobrinja itself, in the

18 interior, no, they didn't. But what people did is when they would finish

19 their shift, they would go back to their homes.

20 Q. Thank you very much, Witness.

21 So where did these soldiers sleep? Where did they sleep?

22 A. They would go back to their homes.

23 Q. Thank you.

24 A. After they would finish their shift, as far as they stayed on

25 their shift, they would then go home.

1 Q. Thank you for this answer. Witness, you spoke about the

2 hospital. In Dobrinja in order to be able to locate exactly where this

3 hospital was, could you please remind us where the hospital was?

4 A. The hospital was in the -- on the ground floor of the building of

5 Omladinskih Radnih Brigada Street -- on the corner there was a restaurant,

6 and I believe there was also some medical equipment there, and it was on

7 the ground floor of a building.

8 Q. Thank you for your answer.

9 Now that we have the street, do you know which number, street

10 number, that was of that building?

11 A. I don't know where the numbers start, but this was on the corner

12 of the street, Omladinskih Radnih Brigada. It was the ground floor.

13 Q. Thank you. That's very well. Now, in that hospital, in the

14 infirmary, was there any kind of sign to denote that this was a hospital?

15 A. I believe that there was a sign -- there was no -- anything

16 written, but I cannot remember whether there was a Red Cross or any other

17 sign like that. I knew it was a hospital. I went past there every day

18 but I never really noticed it. Not that it would be visible.

19 Q. Witness, you said that you went to visit the victims on site, and

20 did you with your own eyes see a sign that was visible so that that would

21 denote a hospital; yes or no?

22 A. Inside Dobrinja, if you would come close to the building, then

23 you would see it. But whether you could see it from a distance, whether

24 there was a sign that you could see from a distance that this was a

25 hospital, this was a ground floor building, I really don't know. I'm not

1 sure about the sign. I cannot tell you.

2 Q. Yes, I understand your answer. Thank you. Now, do you know

3 whether there was a prison near the hospital or anywhere near it? I can

4 see that you're smiling.

5 A. I smiled because I was a policeman. I did not have a possibility

6 to keep these people that I would want to keep in custody. I worked with

7 underage people. I didn't have any premises to put them in. I did not

8 have a place to keep them. So there was no prison by the police

9 administration. But whether the military security had any place to keep

10 prisoners of war, I really don't know.

11 Q. When you say -- so when you say perhaps, does it mean that --

12 could you be perhaps more precise? You don't know, or is this the latest

13 remark about the military facilities?

14 A. I'm telling you I did not have any access, I did not have

15 authority for a period. Because of certain problems, we were not really

16 in a very good relationship with them.

17 Q. Do you know anything about a cafe called Borsalino or Sunce? Do

18 these names tell you something?

19 A. Borsalino is in the area of the municipality of Novi Grad and is

20 located in Alipasino Polje. And Sunce, I don't know. There was a shop

21 called Sunce. But a coffee bar Sunce, no, I don't know that. But

22 Borsalino is on the Alipasino Polje, on the other side.

23 Q. This cafe, was that a place of detention?

24 A. No. They had a possibility if they needed to keep people, they

25 could have kept it at their centre. They probably had a custody room to

1 keep these people. But whether they had, I really don't know.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mundis.

3 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, the Prosecution objects to this line

4 of questioning on the grounds of relevance. And I also note again the

5 time issue is ...

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, could you please respond to

7 the objection of the Prosecution about the relevance.

8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. Because

9 we are trying to establish what were the military facilities in terms of

10 troops, whether they were in civilian clothes or in uniforms, and it seems

11 to me that there were such centres in Dobrinja. And I think that it is

12 legitimate for us to ask whether these various legitimate targets were.

13 And this is what -- this is this line of questioning, whether in this part

14 of Dobrinja, I believe we have to ask this question.

15 JUDGE ORIE: I'm going to ask you the following question: Would

16 you consider prisons as being legitimate targets? I mean, you have been

17 asking a lot about prisons recently.

18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No, Mr. President. No. I

19 will answer differently. I think this is a legal question that I could

20 perhaps return to later. But whoever says prisons has guards, has

21 uniforms, armed people so that's what -- this is where my question was

22 coming from.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I do understand. Your argument is that if

24 there's a prison, that there are uniformed guards, and that would be a

25 legitimate target then; do I understand you well?

1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] If we have military guards,

2 which is what I think I could understand, if they are standing on duty,

3 service, I believe they are legitimate targets absolutely, yes.

4 JUDGE ORIE: I didn't hear anything about standing on duty. So

5 it's your position that -- I do understand that it's part of the case of

6 the Defence which might make that question perhaps relevant that if

7 uniformed, even militarily uniformed people are guarding prisons, that

8 these are legitimate targets; do I understand you well?

9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Well, Mr. President, yes, in

10 the sense that if there was a military facility, there are guards normally

11 in uniform. And if there is a conflict, it is natural that the adversary,

12 the opponent will not know what they are doing, these guards. But the

13 opponent will know that these guards are standing to guard something, so

14 that will be a legitimate target, yes, which is where the line of

15 questioning comes from.

16 JUDGE ORIE: I do understand you, your position.

17 You indicated, Mr. Piletta-Zanin -- I'll not stop you on this

18 questioning although it might be a complex legal issue. I'll not stop you

19 on that, but I remind you that you said you had only two or three

20 questions, and I know for certain that you can count even to more than

21 ten so you know where you are with the number of questions you've put to

22 the witness.

23 I'll give you the opportunity to finish briefly, and try again to

24 be as efficient as Ms. Pilipovic was.

25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. But life

1 is full of surprises. We know that. We all discover things all the

2 time. But we shall finish here. We do not have any further questions.

3 Thank you very much.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

5 Is there any need to re-examine the witness, Mr. Mundis?

6 MR. MUNDIS: Very briefly on one point, Mr. President.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

8 Re-examined by Mr. Mundis:

9 Q. Mr. Sokolar, in your response to a question from my learned

10 colleague, you indicated that, based on what you had said in your witness

11 statement, that you and your colleagues had conducted at least 200

12 investigations into shelling and sniping; is that correct?

13 A. In 1992, in the autumn -- or rather summer of 1992, when the

14 combat operations started, it was only in the latter half of 1993 that

15 these notes and investigations started. I said 200 but I could hardly

16 count. There were days when there would be no such incidents; there were

17 other days when there would be a number of them. But at any rate, the

18 number was quite large.

19 Q. Mr. Sokolar, did you and your colleagues investigate every sniping

20 and shelling incident that occurred in Dobrinja between the middle of 1993

21 when this process started and continuing through 1994?

22 A. I believe almost all of them, as of mid-1993, until the ceasefire

23 was signed. I mean my colleagues and I. If it wasn't me, then it was

24 some other colleagues of mine.

25 Q. Were there sniping and shelling incidents that occurred before you

1 started investigating them in the middle of 1993?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Thank you, Mr. Sokolar.

4 MR. MUNDIS: No further questions.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Mundis.

6 Judge Nieto-Navia has one or more questions for you.

7 Questioned by the Court:

8 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: I'm going to read what you answered referring

9 to the bus incident. Page 9, line 5. You said: "I first went to the

10 hospital where I spoke to the personnel, and I found out about their

11 injuries. The bus, the bus had gone, gone to the garage, and there it

12 is. My colleagues went to the garage and looked at the bus."

13 Could you confirm that? Is that correct?

14 A. My colleagues were notified of the incident; and if they did go

15 out to the scene, they told me by telephone that they had inspected the

16 bus and it had been hit somewhere in the area of the wheel. Whether they

17 performed everything else, whether they had the forensic report from the

18 on-site investigation, I don't know.

19 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Thank you.

20 JUDGE ORIE: I've also a few questions for you.

21 During the cross-examination, you were asked whether you knew

22 anything about sniping, sniping units, within the Bosnia-Herzegovina part

23 of the city or armed forces. You said: "I did not know about that during

24 the war." But you might have heard anything about it after the war.

25 Could you tell us what you heard after the war about such sniping

1 or sniper units? And perhaps first, to start with from whom you heard

2 anything about it and what you heard about it.

3 A. I do not recall saying now that there were snipers who acted on

4 the BH army side. But there was the exchange of fire along the

5 confrontation line, the demarcation line by the snipers on both sides.

6 Their names, their identity was not revealed. And even if there were any

7 snipers on the BH army side, well, it must be recorded somewhere. That is

8 how we took note of their side; that is, they also had sniping victims.

9 JUDGE ORIE: I'll just try to find the exact location of your

10 testimony.

11 I'm having difficulties in finding it. I apologise for that.

12 I'll see whether I can find it later and first put the next question to

13 you.

14 You told us about the weapons you had as police officers, and you

15 said that in the beginning of the conflict - I would say the first few

16 months - you would also have rifles. But then at a certain moment, you

17 did not need to have rifles any more. You had just pistols because you

18 were patrolling with other organs. Could you tell us which other organs

19 you were patrolling with?

20 A. I don't understand. What organs? What organs do you have in

21 mind? There were other weapons in the police station. That's true.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Let me take you back to your testimony in this

23 respect. You were asked: "Can you tell us exactly which period this was

24 that your colleagues had been issued with rifles?" That was the

25 question. And then I read as your answer: "I believe that this was only

1 until about August. I don't think it went on until September 1992. These

2 are just the first two months, just the beginning of the war clashes, and

3 then later on they wore -- they had weapons because they were patrolling

4 with other organs, and then they just had pistols."

5 So you are referring to any combined patrolling which caused you

6 to have only pistols and no rifles any more. Could you tell us what kind

7 of combined patrolling this was, with whom? I was just reading your

8 statement -- your testimony from the transcript.

9 A. Perhaps it is an error in translation. There was no patrolling

10 with any other organs. A patrol would be two men or maybe three. But for

11 the first two months, they had automatic weapons. And after that, they

12 only had small sidearms pistols. And I was issued with only a pistol.

13 And at times I carried it with me; at times, I didn't, in its place where

14 it belongs.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Then I'll have to check whether this is properly

16 translated or not. It's good that you say that you're not aware of having

17 spoken about combined patrolling with other organs. I cannot check it on

18 the spot right now since I have not got available your original language

19 at this very moment.

20 One of the questions put to you was about any units or groups

21 controlled by Juka Prazina. The question was whether you investigated

22 ever activities of this group. And you answered that your investigations

23 were limited to the extent that they would never cover any members of the

24 armed forces.

25 Would you regard groups under the control of Juka Prazina as

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1 members of the armed forces?

2 A. In the early days, those were self-organised groups in all parts

3 of the city. And later on, after a major effort was invested, they were

4 placed under the BH army's control. But a lot of time was needed to

5 regulate it all and put it under control. In the early days it was

6 self-organised groups and it was very difficult to conduct any

7 investigations or do anything. And I've already said that our

8 jurisdiction did not extend over the members -- over persons who were

9 members of the BH army.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.

11 Yes. I've got -- I'm expecting Mr. Piletta-Zanin to help me as

12 well. I've got now the place exactly where you answered the questions

13 about sniping and sniping units. I'll read for you the relevant lines,

14 but I'm afraid that I'm -- one moment, please.

15 [Trial Chamber and legal officer confer]

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I'm reading now to you -- it's the other way.

17 It's page 22, line 17. A question was put to you: "Could you tell us if

18 the special unit had any special purpose when we are talking about sniping

19 activity? Was this a sniping unit within the MUP which was active in

20 Sarajevo under the nickname of Seve?" Your answer was: "Later on, after

21 the war, I may have heard about it. But during the war I haven't heard

22 about it during the war. I've heard now in the press, in the media, that

23 they are talking about these units. But during the war, I had no idea

24 about the existence of such units."

25 Perhaps I may put my question more precise to you: Was there any

1 source outside the media from which you heard about this unit or these

2 units with the nickname Seve?

3 A. Emphatically no. During the war, I knew nothing about that.

4 Later on in the press, there was some scandal related to that group, and

5 that is how I learned about this group called Seve or Larks. And they

6 were members of some special unit. I don't know.

7 JUDGE ORIE: I see that you are answering --

8 THE INTERPRETER: The witness is nodding.

9 JUDGE ORIE: The witness is nodding and he's nodding in the

10 affirming way.

11 These were my questions to you. This means that we are now at the

12 end of your testimony in this Court. I'd like to thank you very much for

13 coming the long way from Sarajevo to The Hague in order to answer to all

14 the questions put to you by both the parties and by the Bench.

15 You'll understand that it's very important for this Court to have

16 the information available which is brought into this courtroom by the

17 witnesses answering the questions of the parties and the Bench. It is

18 important for this Court in order to reach their decisions. So therefore,

19 once again I thank you very much, and I wish you a safe journey home

20 again. The witness may be led out of the courtroom.

21 THE WITNESS: Thank you.

22 [Witness withdrew]

23 JUDGE ORIE: Then, Madam Registrar, could you please assist us in

24 the decisions we have to take on the admission into evidence. I think no

25 videos, no 360-degree photographs. I think we have Prosecution

1 Exhibit P3097, but I don't know whether that's the first one or the

2 reports are the first ones.

3 Yes, please. The first one were the reports or the map? I don't

4 remember, as a matter of fact.

5 THE REGISTRAR: Mr. President, the report was the first one.

6 P2637.1.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And I think attached to it, P2637.1, the

8 English translation for that same document. It's then admitted into

9 evidence. Then we have the map, the marked -- the map with coloured

10 markings on it. That's P3097. That's also admitted into evidence, and I

11 think that there are no other documents tendered.

12 Mr. Mundis, your next witness will be?

13 MR. MUNDIS: Ramiz Grabovica, Mr. President.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Usher, could you please bring in the...

15 [The witness entered court]

16 JUDGE ORIE: Judge Nieto-Navia pointed out to me that we are

17 seven minutes from the break, so we wonder whether it would be wise to

18 start. But perhaps then I'll explain to the witness.

19 Mr. Grabovica, my attention -- do you understand me? You hear me

20 in a language you understand?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I do.

22 JUDGE ORIE: My attention just was drawn to the fact that we are

23 very close to a break we usually have at this time. And since it might

24 not be very good just to start and break off after three, four, or five

25 minutes, I suggest that we'll first have the break, and then after the

1 break we'll start your examination. This would mean that we stop now, so

2 you can take off your headphones again.

3 We'll resume at I would say then quarter to 1.00.

4 --- Break taken at 12.21 p.m.

5 --- On resuming at 12.55 p.m.

6 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber apologises for resuming late. One of the

7 Judges was kept busy with some other important thing.

8 Mr. Usher, could you please bring in the next witness.

9 Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, just a few

11 moments. In relation to the time that the Defence took for

12 cross-examination, we apologise for it. We were looking at the clock, but

13 we saw that according to the transcript, the Prosecution took 1 hour 50,

14 according to what you said. So I believe that we took one and a half

15 hours.

16 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ...

17 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, you looked at the clock. And if you've looked

18 precisely at the transcript, you would have seen that it says in the

19 transcript 1 hour 50, and it still has to be checked. So those who

20 prepare the transcript were aware I might have said, which I did in fact,

21 one hour 15. And I don't think that there's any reason at this moment to

22 comment on a totally wrong basis. Thank you.

23 Please, bring in the witness.

24 Mr. Grabovica, you can hear me in a language you understand?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can.

1 JUDGE ORIE: Before you give your testimony in this courtroom, the

2 rules require you to make a solemn declaration. The text of this

3 declaration will now be given to you by the usher, and I invite you to

4 make that solemn declaration.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

6 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much. Please be seated,

8 Mr. Grabovica.

9 The order in this court is that since you have been called by the

10 Prosecution, you'll first be examined by counsel for the Prosecution, then

11 by counsel for the Defence. And if there's any need, the Judges will put

12 additional questions to you.

13 Mr. Mundis, please proceed.

14 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President.

15 WITNESS: RAMIZ GRABOVICA

16 [Witness answered through interpreter]

17 Examined by Mr. Mundis:

18 Q. Mr. Grabovica, can you please state your full name and spell your

19 last name, please.

20 A. Ramiz, R-A-M-I-Z, Grabovica, G-R-A-B-O-V-I-C-A.

21 Q. Could you please state your date of birth, please.

22 A. I was born in 1959.

23 Q. Mr. Grabovica, at the time when the war in Bosnia started, were

24 you living in Sarajevo?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. Were you working at that time?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Who was your employer and what were your job responsibilities?

4 A. I was a driver in the public transport company. My company

5 consisted of tram transport, bus, minibus transport, and public

6 transportation.

7 Q. And what type of --

8 A. And cable car transport.

9 Q. What type of vehicles did you drive for the public transportation

10 company?

11 A. At that time, I drove a trolley bus.

12 Q. Did you continue driving a trolley bus once the war started?

13 A. While there was electricity and the network worked, I drove a

14 trolley bus

15 Q. Did the electricity work for most of the period of the war, or did

16 it not work for most of the period of the war?

17 A. For the trolley buses, the electricity, I'm not quite sure. But

18 there was no more electricity about 15th of April. Until then, I worked.

19 Q. Do you know when the electrical system for the trolley bus was

20 restored?

21 A. The network of the trolley buses was established by the end of the

22 war.

23 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour., Perhaps my

24 colleague's question should be more specific. We're talking about the

25 15th of April. I did not understand what year that was.

1 A. 1992.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I see that it has been specified already.

3 Thank you. Please proceed. And thank you, Ms. Pilipovic.

4 MR. MUNDIS:

5 Q. Do you know the approximate month and year that the trolley buses

6 started running again in Sarajevo?

7 A. By the time when the war had ended, it was beginning early 1996,

8 the network was working again. And even today, there are some parts of

9 the network that are not operational.

10 Q. When the trolley bus network was not operational, did you continue

11 to be employed by the public transportation company?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. What did you do when you were unable to drive a trolley bus?

14 A. I was waiting for instructions; and if there was nothing to do,

15 then I would go back home.

16 Q. Did you also drive a diesel-powered bus intermittently during that

17 period?

18 A. At that time, no.

19 Q. Did there come a time during the course of the war when you drove

20 a diesel-powered bus for the public transportation company?

21 A. In 1994, I started to drive a bus of the public transportation

22 company.

23 Q. And that was a diesel-powered bus. Is that correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Shortly after the war began in Sarajevo, did you become aware of

1 sniping incidents?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And in fact, during 1994, was the bus that you were driving for

4 the public transportation company fired upon by a sniper?

5 A. Yes. They could see it from many different directions.

6 Q. What month or day in 1994 was the bus that you were driving fired

7 at?

8 A. Once I said it was the 17th of May, but I think my recollection

9 was wrong. And what I believe now, that this was 25th of May. I'm

10 certain of it.

11 Q. Do you remember going to work on that morning?

12 A. I remember well. There was no shooting. It was sunny, and it was

13 bright. I went to work on foot, or I cycled.

14 Q. Did the public transportation company operate its vehicles on days

15 when there were no ceasefires?

16 A. It didn't work, and there were buses for Bosniljak (phoen) and for

17 the hospital workers.

18 Q. The public transportation system only functioned when there was a

19 cease-fire. Is that correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And what were your assigned duties on May 25th, 1994? What were

22 you supposed to be doing for the public transportation company?

23 A. We worked in two shifts, one shift began at 8.00 a.m., and then

24 ended at 12.00. And then there was 12.00 to 5.00 p.m. This was not full

25 time. I worked the first shift. I drove workers from the public

1 transportation company to the Velikih Drveta Street to Dobrinja.

2 Q. Where was the public transportation company located in the city of

3 Sarajevo?

4 A. It was in Alipasino Polje.

5 Q. Would it be accurate to state that you were driving on a regularly

6 scheduled bus route between Alipasino Polje and Dobrinja on that day?

7 A. Yes. I drove, but it's not Alipasino Polje. It was Alipasin

8 Bridge.

9 Q. You were driving a regularly scheduled bus route between those two

10 locations on that day?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Approximately how far is the distance between those two points?

13 A. About 10 kilometres.

14 Q. And would your job responsibilities on that day have entailed more

15 than one round trip between those two points?

16 A. The bus went every 15 minutes.

17 Q. How long did it take to drive the bus between those two points?

18 A. Since there was a large number of passengers, it was sometimes 12,

19 15 minutes even.

20 Q. And then once you arrived in Dobrinja, you would then turn the bus

21 around and go back into the centre of the city. Is that correct?

22 A. Yes. I would turn the bus after I would collect the passengers,

23 and I would go back to the starting stop.

24 Q. Do you recall what the weather was like on the 25th of May, 1994?

25 A. Yes. I remember the weather was sunny, and it was bright.

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1 Q. Do you recall what time it was when your bus was fired upon?

2 A. I remember it was at 11.40.

3 Q. And in what part of the city of Sarajevo was the bus at the time

4 it was shot?

5 A. The bus that I was driving, it was at that time in the centre of

6 Dobrinja.

7 Q. Do you recall the name of the street or streets that the bus was

8 on at the time it was shot?

9 A. At the intersection where I had stopped used to bear the name

10 Aleja of some kind. I don't remember the title. But arriving to that

11 spot was on one side was Nikole Demonje Street and on the other side was

12 Omladinskih Brigada Street.

13 Q. At the time the bus was fired upon, was it moving or was it

14 stopped?

15 A. The bus had stopped.

16 Q. Were you stopped at an intersection or were you stopped at a

17 regularly scheduled bus stop or was it the end of the bus route? Can you

18 tell us why the bus was stopped?

19 A. This was my last stop as well as the first stop at the

20 intersection.

21 Q. Were you waiting to collect the passengers to return to the centre

22 of the city. Is that correct?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. How many doors did the bus have for passengers to either exit or

25 enter the bus?

1 A. There were three doors.

2 Q. And as the bus was at this starting point for its trip, were the

3 doors open or shut?

4 A. The doors, all three of them, were open.

5 Q. Was the motor of the bus running at the time?

6 A. The engine was not running.

7 Q. Why had you turned the engine off?

8 A. Because of a shortage of fuel, we had -- we received very small

9 quantities, and that's why we had to switch the engine off when it was

10 possible.

11 Q. Can you please describe for the Trial Chamber what you heard and

12 saw at the time the bus was shot.

13 A. I was sitting at my place, driver's place. The door was open. It

14 was quiet. I heard a shot coming from the direction of Nedzarici.

15 Q. Did you then hear any noise or commotion coming from the

16 passengers on the bus?

17 A. After the shot, I immediately heard screaming, panic, calling for

18 help.

19 Q. Did you then look to see where this noise or panic was coming

20 from?

21 A. I turned around, and there was panic on the bus.

22 Q. Did you see if anyone on the bus was injured?

23 A. I saw a woman on the right-hand side was holding on to her knee.

24 Q. What did you do at that point?

25 A. And on the left-hand side, I saw a woman who was trying to help as

1 well as looking for help. She was all covered in blood.

2 Q. So you saw two women who were injured on the bus. Is that

3 correct?

4 A. Yes, that's correct.

5 Q. Where were these two women in relation to one another when you saw

6 them on the bus?

7 A. They were opposite each other, because the bus has seats in two

8 lines. They were opposite each other.

9 Q. What did you then do after you realised that two passengers on

10 your bus were injured?

11 A. I wasn't paying attention to the woman whose holding on to her

12 knee but the woman who was bleeding profusely. She had been hit in an

13 artery, and there was a lot of blood. At that moment, I was also in

14 panic, but I realised that I had to drive them to the hospital.

15 Q. What did you do at that moment?

16 A. At that moment, I switched on the engine, closed the doors, even

17 though all the other passengers were saying, "Open, open, because the

18 sniper is shooting."

19 Q. Did you let any of the passengers off the bus at that moment?

20 A. No, I did not. I closed the doors, started, and because the

21 hospital was about a hundred metres away, I went over the sidewalk and

22 through a grassy patch, and I made it to the hospital.

23 Q. Mr. Grabovica, do you know the identity of these two women that

24 were shot on your bus that day?

25 A. I did not know any of those passengers on the bus, and that

1 includes those two women.

2 Q. Did you ever see those two women again after that day?

3 A. No, never.

4 Q. Did you see any passengers wearing military uniforms on 25 May,

5 1994, at 11.40 in the morning?

6 A. No, I did not see anyone because all the passengers on the bus

7 were women.

8 Q. Do you know the approximate age of the two women who were the

9 victims of this sniping?

10 A. I wouldn't know exactly, but I would say middle-aged, 40, 45. I'm

11 not sure.

12 Q. Were both the women approximately the same age?

13 A. I don't really remember if they were peers or if one of them was

14 older. I can't remember that.

15 Q. Do you know if any of the passengers on the bus were carrying any

16 kind of military weapons?

17 A. No, nobody had military weapons, army weapons, in the bus. I

18 repeat that again.

19 Q. At the time your bus was shot, Mr. Grabovica, were you wearing a

20 military uniform?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Were you carrying any kind of military weapon?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Do you recall whether outside of the bus, in the immediate

25 vicinity of where the bus was parked at the time of the shooting, do you

1 recall seeing any military equipment or large military weapons?

2 A. Along the route that I took, I never saw any troops or military

3 equipment except that the military police were somewhere nearby.

4 Q. Do you recall approximately how nearby the military police officer

5 was?

6 A. Well, I wouldn't know exactly the structure that housed them. I

7 only know that the military police was somewhere there.

8 Q. At the time the bus was hit, did you see the military police?

9 A. No. It wasn't the military police; it was the local civilian

10 police that exists in every place everywhere.

11 MR. MUNDIS: I'd ask that the witness be shown the videotape which

12 has been marked P328M.

13 [Videotape played]

14 "THE INVESTIGATOR: Will you please show me by standing at the

15 location where the front of the bus was located at the time it was hit by

16 a bullet to the best of your recollection.

17 "I'll now mark this line with yellow paint.

18 "Could you please show me where the side of the bus was.

19 "I will now mark that line with yellow point.

20 "Could you please show me by standing on the location where to the

21 best of your recollection you were located at the time the bus was hit by

22 a bullet.

23 "I will now mark that with a figure X and a number 1.

24 "Could you please show me by standing on the spot where to the

25 best of your recollection the bullet hit the side of the bus.

1 "I will now mark this spot with an X and a number 2.

2 "To the best of your recollection, can you show me where Passenger

3 A was seated.

4 "THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Here.

5 "THE INVESTIGATOR: "I will also place a number 3 inside

6 this location.

7 "Could you please show me to the best of your recollection where

8 Passenger B was located.

9 "Mark this spot with an X and a number 4.

10 "Could you please indicate by pointing in which direction the bus

11 was facing.

12 "Could you please indicate by pointing from which direction, to

13 the best of your recollection, you heard the gunshot at or near the time

14 that the bus was impacted by the bullet.

15 "And finally, could you please show me where the back of the bus

16 was located, to the best of your recollection.

17 "I'll mark this with a line."

18 MR. MUNDIS:

19 Q. Mr. Grabovica, did you recognise yourself in that videotape?

20 A. I did.

21 Q. Did you comply with the requests of the investigator to the best

22 of your ability, truthfully?

23 A. All that I could remember, I said it then, and I will say it

24 today.

25 MR. MUNDIS: I'd ask that the witness now be shown the 360 degree

1 panorama photo, P3279M.

2 Q. Mr. Grabovica, do you recognise the image that's on the screen in

3 front of you?

4 A. I do.

5 Q. What does that image depict?

6 A. It's up Dobrinja. It is this way that the bullet came from, from

7 the direction of Nedzarici.

8 MR. MUNDIS: Will you please pan the photograph to the right. Stop

9 there.

10 Q. Mr. Grabovica, is this the direction that the bus had come from

11 prior to arriving in Dobrinja?

12 A. Yes. That's right.

13 MR. MUNDIS: Continue panning, please, to the right.

14 Pause there, please.

15 Q. Mr. Grabovica, is this the direction the bus was pointed in at the

16 time it was fired upon?

17 A. Yes. That's right. This is the route to the airport.

18 MR. MUNDIS: Okay. If we can just continue panning back to the

19 right to the original view, please.

20 Thank you. I'd ask that the witness now be shown three

21 photographs which have been marked as P3274.

22 You can place the photo that has been marked as "A" in the upper

23 right hand corner on the ELMO.

24 Q. Mr. Grabovica, do you recall meeting with an investigator from the

25 Tribunal previously and being shown this photograph?

1 A. Yes, I do.

2 Q. There's a building in the lower half of the photograph that is

3 circled and has hash marks through it or lines through it. Do you see

4 that?

5 A. Yes, I do.

6 Q. Did you make those markings on this photograph?

7 A. Yes, I did.

8 Q. Why did you mark this building?

9 A. Because this building did not exist at the time when I drove

10 there.

11 Q. What was located at this spot where the building now stands on 25

12 May, 1994?

13 A. I don't remember exactly. Those two buildings were under

14 construction or, rather, the foundations had been laid. But they did not

15 exist there. I don't remember what was there. I know that these

16 buildings were not completed. They didn't look as they do now.

17 MR. MUNDIS: Would you please place the photograph with the letter

18 "B" on the upper left hand corner before the witness on the ELMO.

19 Q. Mr. Grabovica, does this view represent the direction from which

20 the bullet came which struck your bus?

21 A. It does.

22 Q. Did you place the arrow in the centre at the lower half of this

23 photograph?

24 A. I drew -- I drew it. Whether it's quite accurate, but it is the

25 Nedzarici direction.

1 MR. MUNDIS: I'd ask that the third photograph which has been

2 marked with the letter "C" be placed on the ELMO, please.

3 Q. Does photograph C appear to be taken from the same location as

4 photograph B, but with a telephoto lens? Mr. Grabovica?

5 Sir, did you hear the question?

6 A. I did.

7 Q. Does the photograph marked C seem to be taken from the same

8 location as photograph B but with a telephoto lens?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. There are some markings with a black marker and a red marker in

11 the centre of this photograph. Did you, in fact, make those markings?

12 A. I did.

13 Q. And what do those markings indicate? What does the black circle

14 indicate?

15 A. That is where anti-sniper barricades were, kind of.

16 Q. And the -- what does the red line and the red hash marks indicate?

17 A. The red one, the red line, is showing the anti-sniper barricades.

18 Those two smaller objects were not there then.

19 Q. Which objects are you referring to in this photograph that weren't

20 there then?

21 A. Those private houses, or perhaps they were there but they were

22 very small.

23 Q. The -- are you referring, sir, to the two houses that are inside

24 the black circle in the centre of the photograph?

25 A. Yes.

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1 Q. Mr. Grabovica, do you recall how many gunshots you heard at the

2 time your bus was struck?

3 A. At that time, I heard one shot only.

4 Q. Thank you, Mr. Grabovica.

5 MR. MUNDIS: The Prosecution has no further questions at this

6 time, Mr. President.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Mundis.

8 Mr. Grabovica, as I indicated to you, you'll now be examined by

9 counsel for the Defence. Will it be Ms. Pilipovic? Yes. Are you ready,

10 Ms. Pilipovic?

11 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

13 Cross-examined by Ms. Pilipovic:

14 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Grabovica.

15 A. Good afternoon.

16 Q. Before I start asking you questions, I'd like to ask you if you

17 gave any statements to the OTP investigators?

18 A. Yes, I did.

19 Q. Can you tell us when that was? What year, what period of time?

20 A. Well, I can't remember exactly. Was it 2001? I think that was

21 the year, but what month, I don't know exactly.

22 Q. And if I tell you that it was on the 18th of September, and then

23 on the 26th of September, 2001, will you then confirm it, that that is

24 when it was?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. Will you confirm that what you stated in that statement and

2 confirmed with your signature, that that is true?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Can you tell us that 1994, the month of May, can you confirm, if

5 when you gave the statement to the investigators, you said when the

6 incident had happened?

7 A. I said -- where it says the 17th, I said I was not quite sure of

8 the date, whether it was the 17th or the 25th. But it seems to me that it

9 was the 25th of May rather.

10 Q. And when is it that you recalled that it was the 25th of May?

11 A. Well, it was after that statement. It came back to me, and then I

12 told them I'm not quite sure about the date. I'm quite sure that it was

13 the latter half of May 1994.

14 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, to resolve this

15 matter of date, there are the statements of the witness. I'd like to ask

16 the witness first if he knows what day it was.

17 A. I don't. Not exactly.

18 Q. Do you know if it was a working day or a holiday?

19 A. A working day.

20 Q. A working day. And if I remember, you said that you drove

21 workers.

22 A. Yes, I also drove workers.

23 Q. Did you drive workers that day?

24 A. No. That day, my assignment was to drive civilians only.

25 Q. I will remind you that you gave your statement on the 18th of

1 September, 2001.

2 A. That's right.

3 Q. Do you remember if you said then on what day did that happen?

4 A. I don't know exactly. I said the 17th. That is when I said that

5 it was the 17th. But be that as it may, I said I was not positive about

6 the date. I couldn't say whether it was the 17th or the 25th.

7 Q. And after that statement that you gave on the 18th of September,

8 did the investigators, when you gave your other statement on the 26th, did

9 they ask you again when that incident had taken place? Do you remember

10 that?

11 A. I do, and I repeat it again that I wasn't sure about the exact

12 date.

13 Q. Did you repeat the date which you gave in the statement that you

14 made on the 18th of September, or did you say you did not know?

15 A. Yes, they said --

16 Q. Well, tell us, what do you recollect?

17 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, with your leave, the

18 Defence at this moment does not have the statement in English. I'm

19 referring to the statement of the 26th of September. So I do not know

20 exactly the number of the document. What I do have is the B/C/S version

21 of that. And if my colleagues are agreeable, then from page 2 of the

22 document, I'd like to show the witness a part of his statement.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Would you please read it, and does the interpreters'

24 booth have a copy in the original language?

25 THE INTERPRETER: No, Your Honours, we do not.

1 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] We have only one copy, Your

2 Honour. But I have the document in English, which can help. Not of the

3 26th. We have the statement of the 18th of September. The statement of

4 the 26th of September, I do not have it in English, and the interpreters

5 do not have it. It's very short. It's only two lines. I can read it,

6 but all we want to ask the witness is to --

7 JUDGE ORIE: You are expected to prepare copies if you're going to

8 use the statement and if it's not available to the interpreters. And

9 perhaps it might have mislead you this morning that the interpreters had

10 copies. So would you please read it very slowly so that the interpreters

11 can translate it?

12 So you're reading now from the statement of the 26th of

13 September.

14 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] That's right.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

16 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

17 Q. I am reading the penultimate passage from the statement: "I did

18 not know Dobrinja well so I do not know where the military facilities

19 were. I do not remember the exact date of the incident except that it

20 happened in May 1994. I may have, in my second statement, mentioned the

21 specific date, but I'm not quite certain about it."

22 Witness, is that true, what you said? Is this your accurate

23 statement?

24 A. Yes, it is.

25 Q. Can you then answer on the basis of what did you remember today

1 that it was the 25th of May?

2 A. Because I was asked about the bus plates, and I said that we had

3 pre-war plates on the bus. And in my company, they said that it happened

4 on the 25th of May.

5 Q. Can you tell us, what colour was the bus?

6 A. The bus was red and white.

7 Q. Can you tell us -- you said that the incident happened at 11.30 or

8 11.40.

9 A. Well, thereabouts. It could have been about half past eleven or

10 20 to 12. It was before noon, in any event.

11 Q. And that day, before that time, did you drive that bus along that

12 route, and for how long, or was it your first round?

13 A. No, it could have been my tenth trip. I think it was my tenth

14 trip. I'm not quite sure.

15 Q. You mean that day?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Can you tell us when and how often did you cover that line in

18 1992?

19 A. I have been with the public transport since 1994, and I first

20 drove a bus.

21 Q. No, no, no. You told us that. But I'm asking you before this

22 critical event, how many days or how many weeks before that were you

23 assigned to that particular itinerary?

24 A. Well, it could have been some ten days earlier.

25 Q. Today when you answered my learned friend's questions, you said

1 that on the 15th of April, 1992, the trolley buses had gone out of use in

2 Sarajevo. Can you tell us why was that, and why didn't the trolley bus

3 work? Was it because of the power shortage?

4 A. That's right. There was no power. There was no electricity to

5 power them.

6 Q. Can you tell us if some other means of transportation which are

7 power driven, which are electricity driven, are still operational in

8 Sarajevo?

9 A. I do not know exactly about the tramways, but I know that the

10 trolley buses went stopped working and the buses went on working.

11 Q. You say you don't remember about trams. Do you mean that the

12 trams did not work at all, or that perhaps they did but you don't know

13 when?

14 A. The trams did work then.

15 Q. Do I understand you then to mean that that year, 1994, in May, the

16 trams worked?

17 A. In 1994, the trams work up to Cengic Vila or down to the garage.

18 That was the terminal, and that is where it turned on its way back.

19 Q. When you say the garage, can you tell us in what part of the city

20 was the garage?

21 A. It is Alipasin Most. That was the depot. The Velikih Drveta.

22 Q. So are you telling us that the tram operated between the garage,

23 which is near the Alipasino bridge, to Cengic Vila; is that it?

24 A. No. Bascasija to Cengic Vila, and at times it would go on to the

25 garage, that is, to Velikih Drveta, to Alipasino bridge.

1 Q. Witness, can you answer, that day when allegedly this incident

2 happened, can you tell us how many passengers were riding your bus at the

3 moment when you were at the terminal?

4 A. Well, I said that already. There were about 15 passengers.

5 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, my colleague tells me

6 that now is the time.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Before you proceed, Ms. Pilipovic, let me just ask

8 the Registry. Since we started ten minutes later, I'd like to continue

9 for another ten minutes, unless of course this courtroom has to be

10 prepared for an afternoon session. Are you aware of that?

11 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour, there is an afternoon session in

12 this courtroom.

13 JUDGE ORIE: So unfortunately we are not in a position to continue

14 any longer at this moment, Ms. Pilipovic. I don't know whether this was a

15 suitable moment or not. I interrupted.

16 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

17 JUDGE ORIE: We'll then adjourn until tomorrow morning at 9.00 in

18 this same courtroom.

19 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.45 p.m., to

20 be reconvened on Thursday, the 14th day of February,

21 2002, at 9.00 a.m.

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