1 Thursday, 18 April 2002

2 [Open Session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 2.18 p.m.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Case number IT-98-29-T, the Prosecutor versus

7 Stanislav Galic.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.

9 May I just inquire whether the protective measures for Witness Q,

10 especially also if voice distortion is effective or can be made

11 effective. I get a confirmation from the Registry that it is.

12 Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: If the Bench authorises me to do so in this

14 respect, before the witness here, the Defence would like to make a brief

15 preliminary statement. Thank you, sir.

16 Chairman -- President, Judges, I would just like to express the

17 position of the Defence counsel in relation to what happened yesterday.

18 We are awaiting -- I am referring to what happened yesterday. As I was

19 saying, we are awaiting an addition to your decision, I suppose, but the

20 Defence counsel as a whole would like to proceed and make a brief

21 statement. According to the historic words, whoever comes too late will

22 be punished for life, and I believe it is the duty of the Defence counsel

23 of his Excellency General Galic, but also the other assistance of justice

24 such as lawyers to raise this point at this stage.

25 We looked at the photo yesterday and we saw a problem in relation

1 to what we normally call manipulation of documents. The Defence knows

2 full well that we have no way of requesting an original to be produced and

3 either from the Prosecution or any other authority in possession of the

4 original document. What the Defence would like to stress is that with

5 respect to this kaleidoscope of truth, and everybody sees what they

6 wish to see, but there are quite a few things that can be found there.

7 Yesterday, we saw here a reference to a mass grave and it was a public --

8 it was public knowledge, and several hundred, and perhaps several

9 thousand, bodies were thrown into that mass grave. Now, the Defence is

10 certain that such a discovery would not have been something to which

11 international justice would have remained indifferent and it is up to us,

12 Judge, to decide in what way we shall have to act in relation to that

13 piece of documentation. And the Defence believes that it is within the

14 power of the international institutions, if they feel it is necessary, to

15 come out with an injunction and require -- request the original of that

16 document to be produced.

17 That is what I wanted to say, and thank you very much indeed for

18 having listened to me.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Piletta-Zanin. I will not make on

20 behalf of this Chamber any observation at this very moment. I will

21 discuss the matter with other members of the Chamber and, if appropriate,

22 I will address the matter soon.

23 [Prosecution counsel confer]

24 JUDGE ORIE: Is there any observation from the Prosecution in this

25 respect?

1 MR. STAMP: I am grateful, Mr. President, with your leave.

2 Firstly, may I say that unhappily many crimes were committed in the

3 theatre of Bosnia and Herzegovina, and these crimes, insofar as we are

4 aware of them, are being investigated, have to some extent been

5 investigated, and prosecutions for a variety of crimes where there is

6 sufficient evidence have been made. Insofar as this case is concerned, we

7 would invite the Defence and the Court to -- well, the Defence in

8 particular -- to review, I think it is paragraph 216 of the Prosecution's

9 brief, which clearly and succinctly states the position of international

10 humanitarian law, in respect to reciprocity. I think it is called the tu

11 quoque principle. The fact that other crimes have been committed in this

12 theatre or in Bosnia and Herzegovina is not of direct relevance to this

13 case, but it is to this Tribunal and we do everything in our power to

14 investigate them and to see that justice is done.

15 May it please you, Mr. President.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Stamp. It was just one of the issues

17 I would like to discuss with my colleagues, the relevance of the part of

18 the document mentioned by Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

19 Then, Mr. Stamp, I think we are at a point where the Prosecution

20 could re-examine Witness Q since all protective measures are in effect.

21 Please, Mr. Usher, could you escort Mr. Q into the courtroom.

22 [The witness entered court]

23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Q, can you hear me in a language you understand?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Q, may I remind you that, perhaps unnecessarily,

1 that you are still bound by the solemn declaration you gave at the

2 beginning of your testimony.

3 Mr. Stamp, please proceed.

4 WITNESS: WITNESS Q [Resumed]

5 [Witness answered through interpreter]

6 Re-examined by Mr. Stamp:

7 Q. Witness Q, yesterday the Defence referred to the incident of the

8 22nd of September -- I beg your pardon, the 22nd of January, 1994, and

9 then read from your statement, and perhaps I will just reread it from the

10 transcript: "The BSA fires shells from close to our position to confuse

11 investigators."

12 Now, you said that you would have said that in your statement.

13 Can you recall if you said that in respect to the incident of the 22nd of

14 January or in respect of the incident of the 9th of November, 1993? If

15 you cannot recall, you may review your statement.

16 A. I can't remember whether I have said it in relation to any of the

17 two incidents.

18 Q. Are you understand English a little? Can you read your statement

19 in English?

20 A. I am not sure I can understand the entire statement in English.

21 MR. STAMP: With your leave, Mr. President, I am just going to ask

22 him to have a look at a document and answer a couple of questions.

23 JUDGE ORIE: What document do you have in mind?

24 MR. STAMP: It is a statement.

25 THE INTERPRETER: Excuse me, could the counsel's microphone be

1 somehow adjusted? Because of the voice distortion, we can barely hear

2 him.

3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President --

4 JUDGE ORIE: We are first trying to solve the microphone problem

5 with Mr. Stamp. Mr. Stamp, if you may have noticed, the interpreters have

6 difficulties in hearing you, so perhaps you speak close to the microphone.

7 Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I didn't see in what language

9 my learned friend intends to submit this, in English or in Serbian?

10 JUDGE ORIE: What do you intend to present to the witness, in

11 which language?

12 Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin

13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I don't know whether you are

14 listening to the French or not, Mr. President.

15 JUDGE ORIE: No, I was listening to the English channel for a

16 second.

17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] The French booth would like

18 for the microphone of Mr. Stamp to be raised closer to him so that he can

19 speak close into the microphone.

20 THE INTERPRETER: And the same applies to Mr. Piletta-Zanin's

21 microphone, by the way.

22 MR. STAMP: I believe this should be sufficient. Could the

23 witness be shown this statement in B/C/S, in the language of the former

24 Yugoslavia.

25 Q. If you could just refresh your memory for us and tell us firstly

1 if you made that statement, and if you did, in relation to which incident

2 you made the statement; was it the 9th of November incident or the 22nd

3 of January incident?

4 THE REGISTRAR: Microphone, please, Mr. Stamp.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This refers to the case of the 9th,

6 1993 at Zavnobih Square and the square of Rade Koncara.

7 MR. STAMP:

8 Q. Thank you very much, Witness Q.

9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I can't hear

10 my friend's interpretation. I don't know whether I am being punished on

11 purpose or is it just a mistake.

12 MR. STAMP: Thank you --

13 JUDGE ORIE: One moment, please, because the French booth is

14 resuming the answer of the witness.

15 Please proceed, Mr. Stamp.

16 MR. STAMP: Thank you. I have no further questions of this

17 witness. Could the document be returned to me? That, Mr. President,

18 Your Honours, may it please you, is the re-examination of this witness.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

20 Judge El Mahdi has one or more questions to you, Mr. Q.

21 Questioned by the Court:

22 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. It

23 seems to me, Witness, that you have had the possibility to access the

24 register which refers to the incidents regarding some shelling. Do you

25 remember approximately how many such incidents there were every month?

1 Do you have any statistical information about that?

2 A. I, myself, did not keep track in that way. I don't have any

3 statistical information. I had the notes pertaining to my own

4 investigation. Unfortunately, I don't have them on me today. But this

5 register did exist, and what was entered there were any operations carried

6 out by people on duty, by officers on duty. Once they came back to the

7 office, it was their duty to enter the data pertaining to that

8 investigation into the register since we tend to carry out all sorts of

9 investigations involving crime. Every time there was an investigation,

10 there was a reference to the number, the description of the case, and all

11 the other relevant data. For each individual year, we've got one, two,

12 three, or more registers, depending on how many cases of crime we've had.

13 In case one single book suffices, okay. That ends with the date of the

14 25th of December of any given year and then it is stored in the archives.

15 Since all of that is at the office, it is a part of our official record

16 and it is in the archive, and it is only if you get in touch with the

17 people in charge that you can gain access to such archives. That is the

18 still the current practice. That's the same sort of practice that we had

19 before. It was standard practice and it still exists.

20 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Yes, but you, yourself, for

21 example, do you remember how many such incidents have you, yourself,

22 investigated? For example, how many a month, how many in a day, how many

23 in a quarter?

24 A. With reference to that specific period, I can't remember exactly

25 how many cases a day. Sometimes there were more; sometimes less and

1 perhaps even none in a single day. But I can't tell you the exact figure

2 because I am in the same job today. So the percentage tended to go up but

3 I can't remember the exact number of cases I had to deal with in that

4 particular period.

5 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Yes, I am not referring to

6 investigations as such in general. What I am referring to are shellings.

7 Did you have several teams? How many teams did you have? If possible,

8 if you can remember, I'd like to know.

9 A. I can say, well, from the beginning of my career there, until the

10 end of the hostilities, I myself carried out 52 on-site investigations

11 with reference to various shelling or people being injured and wounded by

12 snipers, so things having to do with the warfare. And that is what I said

13 in my statement, 52 investigations pertaining to the hostilities. But I

14 can't really remember each individual case. All that is entered into

15 the registers I was referring to earlier on. On a daily basis, we had to

16 enter all this into the register. And I don't suppose there will be any

17 problem in checking it out, obviously.

18 Apart from myself and my own investigations, there were other

19 cases elsewhere in town and my colleagues went out carry out on-site

20 investigations. They were trained in much the same way as I was, and on

21 the days I was off duty or if I was somewhere else or people from other

22 police stations did the same, so all that was entered into the same

23 register. The whole range of activities of our police department would be

24 entered into the register for any given year.

25 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Q, I have some additional questions to you as

2 well, but could perhaps first be placed in front of the witness Exhibit

3 P3681. Not on the ELMO, but just in front of him, just the top page.

4 Mr. Q, you have answered some questions yesterday about the bottom

5 of this document. You read a few parts of it. So it's the lower part of

6 the document I am asking you about.

7 Did you make this entry in this register?

8 A. No, I did not. And my name is not mentioned in this part of the

9 document.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Were you involved in whatever way in making this

11 entry in the register? So even if you would not have written it yourself.

12 A. No. I wasn't. It has nothing to do with my work.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Do I take it from your answer that you are not

14 involved in the investigation which appears in this part of the document?

15 A. I was not involved in that investigation.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Do you have any information about that investigation

17 or the results of this investigation?

18 A. Just the words that I have read out to you. That was the

19 information I had. It was open to all members of staff. It is a register

20 where we make our own entries and, of course, when we do so we get the

21 opportunity to read other entries. As to everything else, I had no direct

22 contact with any of this.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Do the names of colleagues of yours appear in that

24 entry who were involved in the investigation?

25 A. Well, this register is a document where you enter the date, what

1 happened, the site, the description, and who was involved in the on

2 site investigation. So the column, the one before last, in the lower part

3 of this section, you can see the name of the person in charge, and in case

4 it was a bigger team, you get all the names. In case there was an

5 investigating magistrate present, you get his name and the prosecutor's

6 name and the experts' name, the police officers' names. They should all

7 be entered in this column, the one before last.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. I have one other question.

9 Could please this document be removed and returned to the

10 Registry.

11 We have seen a photograph with a yellow line on it and you

12 explained to us that this was something to -- that was used to measure.

13 Would you measure from the photographs or would you measure on the spot?

14 A. As to the measurements themselves, I could measure the distance

15 from one trace to the other. The measurements that should have been used

16 in order to calculate and in order to come up with ballistic proof, well,

17 the ballistic experts would have had to do that: What sort of projectile

18 it was, what sort of angle it landed at, it was their job. All I had to

19 do was take pictures. And the picture where you did see that yellow tape

20 was meant to be used in order for us to be able to tell the distance.

21 Because when the picture itself was taken, of course if you come close to

22 what you taking a photograph of, the appearance of your subject is quite

23 different from what it would be if you stepped further back.

24 So this yellow tape, I don't know what photo exactly it was on.

25 It was meant to give us the sense of proportion when looking at the

1 pictures, people who were not on the site, in fact, so as not to get the

2 wrong ideas to the size of this hole.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Q. That was a mistake, that Judge

4 Nieto-Navia still had a question for you but I knew it not yet at that

5 time.

6 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Mr. Q, I would like to make a question on this

7 document, 3681. I think that you don't have to look at it again, but I

8 would like -- I don't remember if you said so, but I would like to know,

9 where is this, the original? Where is the original of this document

10 filed? Who has this document?

11 A. That document is the book of records which is at the archive of

12 the Ministry of the Interior of Canton of Sarajevo. That used to be the

13 centre of the public security services. Now it is the Ministry of the

14 Interior of the Canton of Sarajevo. And all registers, all books of

15 records starting from 1993, 1994 onwards, are stored in that archive. I

16 really don't see there would be any impediment or any problem for you to

17 get to see them. I don't know what the procedure is. You would be more

18 familiar with the procedure than I am.

19 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Thank you.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I am very sorry, but it is my

22 task to see that justice is done. I believe that I saw on the screen

23 briefly the document concerned. This witness is a protected witness and

24 he told us that his name was on that document -- was in that document.

25 This document was shown inadvertently on the screen and, therefore, I

1 believe that the Chamber should take the necessary measures so that the

2 witness remains protected.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Madam Registrar, may I ask you -- I don't know

4 whether -- was it from a distance or not? If it is from a great distance,

5 it would not be legible, but I didn't notice it because I was looking at

6 the transcript. But if we wait until the first break, we might be too

7 late. So, therefore, Madam Registrar, could you please give instructions

8 that the videotape in that respect is reviewed on whether there is any --

9 if it is really from a great distance, it makes no difference, I think.

10 But we will check that and have it redacted, if necessary.

11 Meanwhile, Mr. Q, I -- Madam Registrar is taking the necessary

12 steps in order to make your protection as effective as possible. This

13 concludes your examination as a witness in this courtroom. You have

14 answered the questions not only from the parties, but also questions from

15 the Judges and you will be aware that this Chamber hears the testimony

16 given by those who were present at the relevant times at the relevant

17 places and hear what answers the witnesses give on the questions of the

18 parties and the Judges.

19 We thank you very much for coming to The Hague and we wish you a

20 safe journey home again.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

22 [The witness withdrew]

23 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I was just informed that the picture, the video

25 picture was such that it would not jeopardise the protection of the

1 witness so a redaction is not needed.

2 Madam Registrar, could you please guide us through the documents.

3 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

4 THE REGISTRAR: Document Exhibit P3681, logbook entries and

5 photographs, Exhibit --

6 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted. Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, if you wanted to

7 object --

8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. My

9 objection has to do, as I have already said, that this document did not

10 seem to us to be a document which was completely authentic and it would

11 seem to us -- it seems that it was manipulated, and I was speaking about

12 the first page of this set of documents. And on the other hand, I made a

13 general remark that there was -- we did not have enough time to prepare

14 for these two photographs. The photograph, my objection also concerns the

15 second photograph. Thank you.

16 [Trial Chamber confers].

17 JUDGE ORIE: Whether the original was manipulated or not or

18 corrected or not, that is not an issue of admissibility of this document.

19 And the Chamber further notes that the testimony of the witness was not

20 related to the part of which the Defence has argued, that there was a

21 manipulation of this document, but rather of the previous entry. The

22 witness has testified that he doesn't know anything on the last line of

23 the document. And of course the Defence, if it turns out to be a

24 relevant issue for this case, of course is entirely free to call witnesses

25 to testify on other entries.

1 The Chamber has indicated that if the Defence would not have had

2 enough time to prepare for the cross-examination, that they could indicate

3 so in order to recall the witness. Until now, I am saying this quite

4 clearly. Until now, we have noticed that the problems of the Defence in

5 respect of this document seem to go rather to the last line than to the

6 previous line on which the -- about which the witness testified in

7 relation to the investigations he was participating in.

8 The document is -- documents, that means the register and the

9 photos and also the black and white photos with the subscripts, are

10 admitted into evidence.

11 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

12 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P --

13 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps our first P3681 should be admitted under

14 seal because the name of the witness appears in it. Please help us out

15 further, Madam Registrar.

16 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P2171A, record by Borislav Stankov in

17 B/C/S, under seal; Exhibit P2171.1, English translation under

18 seal; Exhibit P2171B, forensic report in B/C/S under seal; Exhibit

19 P2171B.1, English translation; Exhibit P3680, pseudonym sheet under seal;

20 Exhibit D96, map marked by witness; Exhibit D97, B/C/S report 1st Corps

21 command of 24th of June, 1993; Exhibit D97.1, English translation; Exhibit

22 D98, on-site investigation report in B/C/S; Exhibit D98.1, English

23 translation.

24 JUDGE ORIE: These documents are admitted into evidence.

25 MR. STAMP: May I?

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13 English transcripts.

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1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

2 MR. STAMP: May I ask just for one reservation, that the document

3 D97 admitted in evidence subject to us obtaining an official translation

4 of the document.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could a translation be provided by the

6 Defence?

7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. If we

8 must, we shall do it as best we can to get the translation, so-called

9 official translation. You know the time that is necessary. I believe

10 that we can talk about months. But perhaps we could use the procedure

11 that you have already suggested, that is, go through the Registry in order

12 to speed up the whole matter.

13 JUDGE ORIE: The D97 is provisionally admitted and is finally

14 admitted once a translation has been provided, and the Chamber orders that

15 a translation will be made. So, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, you can use the

16 transcript in order to see how quickly it can be done.

17 On the other hand, Mr. Stamp, I think if it is not there by

18 tomorrow, it would not be of great concern to the Prosecution?

19 MR. STAMP: Indeed not.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Next week would be good.

21 MR. STAMP: Very well.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Then we still have another document on which we have

23 to take a decision.

24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I am not quite sure that I

2 understood you well. Are you asking me to use the transcript to speed up

3 the translation?

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If the -- if the interpretation and translation

5 unit knows that it's own specific request of the Chamber that a

6 translation should be made, they should speed up.

7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, I see.

8 JUDGE ORIE: If you take the transcript, make a copy of one page

9 and yellow marker pen, that might be of some help.

10 Then we still have P1517B, Madam Registrar. That is the colour

11 version of the medical record of witness Mehonic.

12 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please,.

13 THE REGISTRAR: P1517C and P1517C.1.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but C.1, may I just have a look at that to see

15 whether -- yes. I think P1517C.1 cannot be admitted as it is now. Since

16 a new translation leaving out those parts that do not appear in the

17 original should be taken out from the translation. Is that correct, Mr.

18 Stamp?

19 MR. STAMP: Indeed it is being done. I expect that to be

20 available probably today or tomorrow.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Then, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President, with

23 regard to this document, once again, and I am sorry if I am repeating

24 myself, but we are very sorry. We think that this document which was

25 obviously done in -- on two different occasions and that therefore, for

1 this reason, the Defence would be very happy if this document were not

2 admitted.

3 JUDGE ORIE: If, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, anything would have been added

4 later on, for example, within the hospital, until now, we have seen this

5 document in its original version as it has been given to the patient and

6 as it has brought to this court by the witness who received it from the

7 medical institution. Therefore, the objection against admission is

8 denied.

9 I think we then need a one or two-minute break and I would suggest

10 that we do not leave the courtroom. A break necessary for the technicians

11 to adjust the microphones to the testimony to be given by the next expert.

12 MR. STAMP: In the interim, Mr. President and Your Honours, I

13 respectfully ask to be released.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

15 MR. STAMP: Thank you very much.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Could the technicians tell me whether they need

17 another test or whether we could continue? We can continue.

18 Mr. Ierace, is my understanding right that you would now call Mr.

19 Donia an expert and that you'll just, I would say, on formality grounds,

20 you would examine him in chief and then the expert being cross-examined by

21 the Defence?

22 MR. IERACE: That's so, Mr. President and at some convenient point

23 to you I would seek to tender the translation of a document, a translation

24 that was requested during the evidence of Habib Trto. I think about two

25 weeks ago coincidentally, it seems to indicate a turn around time of two

1 weeks for fresh translations. Perhaps that could be done now or at a

2 later point.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps that could be done at a later point but

4 perhaps you could give a copy to the registry so that we could see the

5 translation before giving a decision on the admission.

6 MR. IERACE: I will, Mr. President and might I point out that the

7 entire document has been translated, not just the page in question.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Then I have another oral decision to make. The

9 Prosecution has requested that the statement of a deceased witness - his

10 name is Bajram Sopi - would be admitted into evidence. Meanwhile, the

11 Defence has responded to that request and the Prosecution has asked leave

12 to respond to the response. That leave is granted, and since the request

13 for leave to respond was already accompanied by the response itself, we

14 will proceed. But leave is granted.

15 Then, would you, Mr. Usher, could you please assist Mr. Ierace in

16 escorting the expert into the courtroom.

17 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, whilst he is being brought into the

18 court, might I inform you that the supporting material is presently being

19 collated -- excuse me, Mr. President.

20 [Prosecution counsel confer]

21 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, the open source material, rather, is

22 in the process of being collated, but in the meantime the balance of the

23 material is available for the Bench at your convenience.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, we were informed about that. We were a bit

25 surprised because it has been filed so it is available to the Bench. The

1 only question we answered whether they should be submitted as a whole

2 together with the report, but I do understand that full copies have been

3 made again, which would not have been necessary as far as we are

4 concerned, unless there is anything extra in the present copies compared

5 to the copies filed before. If that would be so, then of course we would

6 need a full new set and we would like to know what has been added. I can

7 imagine that newspapers articles that you found or whatever would have

8 been added. But if it is the same, well, I am afraid that this has been a

9 loss of a lot of copying capacity.

10 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, the open source material which has

11 been requested by the Defence would become part of the Prosecution's

12 tender, that is the newspapers articles, the audiotape speech by Radovan

13 Karadzic, and certain other documents as well.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, so there has been some extras and then we will

15 see how to do it, whether we return our copies or whether they will be

16 destroyed, because we have copies until now.

17 MR. IERACE: It might be more convenient that there be a

18 supplementary volume with that material together with the audiotape and

19 also some video material.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that's perhaps the best way of dealing with it.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Usher, could you please lead the expert witness

22 into the courtroom.

23 [The witness entered court]

24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] The French booth asks you to

2 slow down, and the same goes to Mr. Ierace, so they could better

3 understand, better follow, and therefore, produce and perform better.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace and I have the same problems now and then

5 speaking the same language.

6 Mr. Donia, I presume, Mr. Donia, before giving testimony before

7 this Chamber, the Rules of Procedure and Evidence require you to make a

8 solemn declaration that you will speak the truth, the whole truth and

9 nothing but the truth, and the text will be handed out to you now by the

10 usher. May I invite you to make that solemn declaration.

11 THE WITNESS: Yes, Mr. President.

12 I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth

13 and nothing but the truth.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much. Please be seated, Mr. Donia. I

15 just like to inform you that your report has been filed. That means that

16 parties and Chamber have read your report. And the procedural order is

17 that you will be very briefly examined by the Prosecution, who called you

18 as a witness, but then the main reason for your presence here is that the

19 Defence has asked to have the opportunity to cross-examine you. So that

20 we will start soon.

21 Mr. Ierace, may I first give you the opportunity to examine Mr.

22 Donia.

23 WITNESS: ROBERT DONIA

24 Examined by Mr. Ierace:

25 Q. Sir, would you please state your full name?

1 A. Robert J. Donia.

2 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I ask that the witness be shown a copy

3 of P3683, only the report, not the supporting materials.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed.

5 Mr. Ierace, when you say "just the report," you mean the

6 appendixes included and the footnotes so that means 30 pages of report --

7 no, 31 pages of -- no, 30 -- no. I have to apologise. I have a report of

8 25 pages, including footnotes, and I have three appendages: A personal

9 curriculum vitae of Mr. Robert Donia and table one and map one.

10 MR. IERACE: That is correct, Mr. President. There are some

11 colour copies of the map available. If they could be distributed.

12 THE REGISTRAR: To be included as part of this Exhibit,

13 Mr. Ierace?

14 MR. IERACE: Yes, thank you. The Defence already has a copy,

15 Mr. President.

16 JUDGE ORIE: I said 33 pages. I had forgotten about the front

17 page, so that makes 34.

18 Mr. Ierace, please proceed.

19 MR. IERACE:

20 Q. Mr. Donia, do you have before you a report which bears your

21 signature and the date the 25th of February, 2002?

22 A. Yes, I do.

23 Q. Is the report titled "The Siege of Sarajevo, a Background Report?"

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Would you please turn to Appendix A.

1 A. Yes, I have that.

2 Q. In Appendix A, are have you set out some aspects of your personal

3 history together with your curriculum vitae?

4 A. Yes, I have.

5 Q. Would you please go to page one of the curriculum vitae, that is

6 the following page, number 28.

7 A. Yes, I have that.

8 Q. By way of addition to that document, is there a recent

9 affiliation that should be added?

10 A. Yes. Under "current affiliations" can be added an honorary

11 appointment as Professor of History, the University of Sarajevo

12 Philosophical Faculty.

13 Q. On page 30, under the heading "expert witness testimony," I think

14 you list trials in this Tribunal in which you have given evidence?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Are you also presently in the process of giving evidence in a

17 trial of the Prosecutor and Stakic?

18 A. Yes, I am.

19 MR. IERACE: I have no further questions in chief, Mr. President.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Ierace.

21 Is the Defence ready to cross-examine the witness?

22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. I

23 would like to make the following comment: Exceptionally, we will have to

24 have much more time and we thank you for that in advance, than just a

25 couple of minutes on the part of the Prosecution. Considering that we

1 have decided this task, I will be asking some general questions and my

2 colleague, Ms. Pilipovic, is going to deal with issues having to do with

3 the footnotes. Having said that, we are now ready.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Well, you can continue.

5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much indeed.

6 Cross-examined by Mr. Piletta-Zanin:

7 Q. [Interpretation] Good day, Witness. Can you hear me?

8 A. Yes, I can.

9 Q. Mr. Donia, do you consider yourself to be an expert historian?

10 A. Yes, a historian with expertise in the history of the former

11 Yugoslavia in the 19th and 20th centuries.

12 Q. Thank you. Before we move on any further, would you agree with

13 the Defence in general that if we wish to understand certain events in the

14 former Yugoslavia, we can't restrict ourselves to looking into the history

15 of the period that you have just mentioned, that is to say the 19th and

16 the 20th century?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Thank you. Witness, I would nevertheless consider, and that is my

19 understanding of the situation, that you are a specialist for the

20 contemporary history or, more specifically, the two centuries that you

21 have referred in relation to this geographical area in particular.

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Thank you. Witness, before we move on to purely historical

24 matters, I would like you to tell us a bit about yourself, about your

25 training, your so-called academic achievement and your professional

1 career.

2 What was your last job, could you tell the Court?

3 A. There are several questions there. My -- to answer your last

4 question first, I currently hold the three appointments indicated at the

5 beginning of my CV. Prior to 1998, from 1981 to 1998, I was employed by

6 the investment firm of Merrill Lynch and worked for Merrill Lynch in

7 matters unrelated to the former Yugoslavia or south-east Europe.

8 To your question regarding --

9 Q. Witness, I believe there was just one question, the one that you

10 have just answered, so I would like to interrupt you here, if you don't

11 mind.

12 According to the transcript, apparently we have a problem with

13 figures. No, no. It is fine. Thank you very much.

14 You have just mentioned that during two decades, basically, you

15 had a completely different job. You worked for Merrill Lynch, the

16 financial company; is that correct?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. What was your title, Witness?

19 A. Resident Vice President.

20 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I object on the basis of relevance.

21 His employment at Merrill Lynch has nothing to do with his expertise for

22 which he's called in this case. Thank you

23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, could you explain to us what the

24 relevance of your question is.

25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. I am

1 coming to my point. What I would like to know is what exactly the

2 academic career of the witness has been and, of course, now I have to

3 reveal my purpose. And I would just like to know whether for the entire

4 duration of that period, the witness had the opportunity to dwell on

5 matters that we are interested in.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. President, your question was what post the expert

7 held in Merrill Lynch, and I think the objection was about the

8 relevance of that specific question.

9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. But you

10 and I know that somebody who is just an employee in a big hierarchy,

11 generally speaking, has more time off than person who is very high up and

12 needs to concentrate a great deal on the job. But, basically, it has been

13 taken out of my hands now. May I continue?

14 JUDGE ORIE: You may continue, but where Mr. Donia found his time

15 to concentrate on other issues than Merrill Lynch would, in the view of

16 this Chamber, not be relevant enough to be asked to him.

17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] All right then.

18 Q. Witness, in the course of that period, did you dedicate all of

19 your time to your employer, that is to say, the Merrill Lynch company?

20 A. Virtually all of my time, yes.

21 Q. Thank you. Witness, could you tell us or remind us about when you

22 obtained your degree as a historian and at what university?

23 A. I obtained my undergraduate degree at Hope College in Holland,

24 Michigan, in 1967. It was a degree in history. In 1974, I received a

25 master's degree from the University of Michigan in Ann Arbor, Michigan,

1 and in 1976, received a Ph.D. in history from the University of Michigan.

2 Q. Witness, would you be so kind as to tell us what the topic of your

3 thesis was?

4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, I don't want to interrupt but the

5 last question and then the new question, is there any -- do you want to

6 check what is in the report or is there any reason to believe that it is

7 not. I mean, I read the last answer which seems to certify you on page 31

8 and unless there is any reason to believe that -- of course, if that is

9 your -- if that is your issue, than please proceed, but if it is just to

10 have confirmed what is written there.

11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I have read the report, Mr.

12 President.

13 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]... what I just said.

14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Will do.

15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

16 Q. Witness, could you just very briefly remind us of what exactly

17 your thesis was all about.

18 A. The topic of my doctoral thesis was the political and social life

19 of the Muslims of Bosnia-Herzegovina from 1878 until 1908.

20 Q. So you are a specialist in what is called the "K und K"

21 administration?

22 A. That was the subject of my dissertation.

23 Q. Since when had you been appointed at the university of Sarajevo,

24 the philosophy faculty?

25 A. Within the past month.

1 Q. Witness, previously, did you at any time hold a post which would

2 be comparable to that of a lecturer, what is normally referred to as an

3 ordinary professor, in French, a lecturer?

4 A. I was an assistant professor of history to use the American

5 academic term. At the Ohio State University, Lima Campus, from January

6 1978 until January 1981. In addition I was a visiting professor of

7 history at the University of Oregon until the late spring of 1981. That

8 was my last academic appointment prior to going to work for Merrill Lynch.

9 Q. Have I understood you correctly if I said that you were not a

10 lecturer, a regular in-house lecturer?

11 A. I am not familiar, unfortunately, with the French terminology or

12 academic system. These were full-time academic appointments.

13 Q. Were you in charge of a university department?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Thank you for this reply.

16 You do not hold a chair, you are not a head of a department at any

17 university at the moment?

18 A. That is correct.

19 Q. Thank you for this reply.

20 Witness, you have talked to us or rather you mentioned in the

21 report which is been mentioned right now, the existence of a foundation

22 and I believe the name of that foundation is Donia Vakuf. I do hope that

23 I am pronouncing the name correctly. Is that correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Witness, if we understand what "Donia" means, could you tell us

1 briefly what the word "Vakuf" stands for and, also, has it been taken from

2 Arabic?

3 A. The Donia Vakuf Foundation took its name from the Donji Vakuf

4 municipality in Bosnia-Herzegovina. The term "Vakuf" is the Serbo-Croatian

5 term, which is a slightly different form of the Arabic word "Waqaf" that

6 refers to an Islamic foundation.

7 Q. Could you tell us if you know it - I suppose you do know - what

8 exactly the term that you have just used in Arabic means. "Waqaf," I

9 believe it is.

10 A. Waqaf is a piece of property, whether it is a shop or a piece of

11 agricultural land or other earning asset, that is devoted to the

12 maintenance of a particular religious, educational or cultural

13 institution. It's therefore an endowment.

14 Q. So it is a fund, if my understanding is correct, which is meant to

15 fund certain types of work or certain activities?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Thank you.

18 Witness, what is your role within the foundation?

19 A. I am the president.

20 Q. Were you also one of the founding members or the founding member?

21 A. I was one of the founding members, yes.

22 Q. Thank you for this reply.

23 Witness, could we be told who provides the necessary funding for

24 the functioning of this foundation, who are the donors?

25 A. Well, the donor has been my family. This is a family foundation

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

1 with the appropriate limitations under U.S. tax laws.

2 Q. You are saying the donor, and you are using the singular. So

3 there is just one donor; is that correct?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. The question I am going to ask is this: Are you getting paid as

6 president?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Thank you for this reply.

9 Witness, do you know - and you should know - whether this

10 foundation has been involved on the spot in Bosnia-Herzegovina with

11 reference to the carrying out of any projects?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Do you know whether that foundation was involved in any religious

14 or para-religious projects. When I say para-religious, what I mean is

15 Islamic schools.

16 A. No, it has not been.

17 Q. Has the foundation in any way at all been involved in projects

18 involving Koranic schools?

19 A. No. The schools that have principally received the donations have

20 been the University of Michigan and St. Lawrence University, both in the

21 United States.

22 Q. What are the projects implemented by the foundation on the

23 territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina, if there are any?

24 A. The projects that have been carried out on territory of

25 Bosnia-Herzegovina have been in fact carried out by the University of

1 Michigan and St. Lawrence University. The first project was the

2 preparation of a bibliography of those items destroyed in the bombing of

3 the library, National University Library of Bosnia-Herzegovina, in August

4 of 1991 -- 92, that are in the possession of the University of Michigan

5 libraries.

6 In addition, the donations of the foundation have gone to support

7 the project of General Divjak. I think the project is called "Children of

8 Bosnia," and in support of various publication activities of the Intitute

9 for History in Sarajevo.

10 Q. Thank you.

11 Is that all?

12 A. Those are the primary projects that have been supported. The

13 University of Michigan project resulted in a the creation of a website

14 which was called Cuprija, which is "bridge," and I think that some of the

15 results of that review were placed on the website and done in conjunction

16 with Bosnian members of the faculty at the University of Sarajevo and the

17 National and University Library.

18 Q. Thank you, Witness.

19 Let me now move on to another series of questions.

20 You have indicated to us that in order to gain an understanding on

21 what could have happened in the former Yugoslavia, one has to take a

22 broader historic view and not just the contemporary period; do we agree on

23 that?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Thank you.

1 The question I am going to ask you will go back in time because we

2 have read some of your writings and you yourself are referring to that

3 particular period. Could you just simply, and this is of importance to

4 the Defence, tell us, where the line of rupture was following what is

5 normally called the Great Schism?

6 A. There was no single line - geographic line that could divide those

7 two places.

8 Q. Could you tell us what the area was?

9 A. The area extended all the way from northern Russia throughout

10 Europe, south-eastern Europe, down to the area of the Mediterranean Sea.

11 THE INTERPRETER: Could the Defence counsel repeat because we

12 didn't hear. The interpreters didn't hear.

13 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, the English translators have asked Mr.

14 Piletta-Zanin to repeat the question because they did not hear it.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

17 Q. Did that include Bosnia?

18 A. Did what include Bosnia?

19 Q. This area that we are referring to at the moment.

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Thank you.

22 Witness, could you indicate as of when, if you know it, what is

23 normally called the Glagolitic alphabet was used?

24 A. I don't know precisely.

25 Q. You do not know precisely what, the date or the period?

1 A. The date.

2 Q. Could you give us a century?

3 A. Before the -- it was certainly in use before the 12th century.

4 Q. Witness, can one consider that with the adoption of Glagolitic --

5 THE INTERPRETER: Could the speaker please speak into the

6 microphone? Closer to the microphone.

7 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I'm not sure if you're listening on

8 the English channel --

9 JUDGE ORIE: I'm listening into live channel at this moment, so I

10 do not hear any translation. Whoever could assist me in warning me if the

11 interpreters are having some problems, but I don't know what the problem

12 is.

13 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, the request is whether you would come a bit

14 closer to the microphone.

15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I am going to get hurt, but

16 I'll do it with pleasure. [In English] Our profession is not without

17 risk.

18 Q. [Interpretation] Witness, let me continue and I do apologise, is

19 it correct to consider that with the adoption of the fee -- of Glagolitic

20 language, there is an overlap between the Latin world and the other?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Thank you. Are you familiar with the name of Mr. Brodel?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Thank you.

25 Witness, I have to check the time.

1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I don't know

2 exactly when you would like to have a break. Perhaps this would be the

3 appropriate moment. Perhaps we could take the break now because it is

4 almost a quarter to 4.00.

5 JUDGE ORIE: We will adjourn, if you would otherwise touch a new

6 subject. We will adjourn, Mr. Donia, usually for half an hour, so we will

7 resume at a quarter past 4.00.

8 --- Recess taken at 3.45 p.m.

9 --- Upon resuming at 4.17 p.m.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, please proceed.

11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

12 However, before I begin, I merely like to see something but it seems that

13 the interpreters booth at times cannot hear me and therefore, if I may, I

14 like to check with the booths to see if they hear -- if they can hear me,

15 depending on the different booths. I don't know if the English booth can

16 hear me.

17 THE INTERPRETER: Yes, we can, even though I have to keep the

18 volume up to the maximum.

19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] The English booth answered it

20 is better, even though we have to keep the volume up.

21 MR. IERACE: The answer is on the English channel, Mr. President.

22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [In English] Thank you for this information. I

23 do appreciate it. [Interpretation] And I was about to switch to the

24 English channel. I believe it is now better. I will now test the second

25 microphone. Can the English booth hear me better now?

1 THE INTERPRETER: Not really. It is about the same.

2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Which of the two microphones

3 seems to you better?

4 THE INTERPRETER: The problem is that we have to keep the volume

5 at the maximum level and therefore we now can hear well, but when the

6 counsel turns away from the microphones, then we have no possibilities of

7 putting up the volume further.

8 JUDGE ORIE: It is workable for the moment, as far as I

9 understand.

10 THE INTERPRETER: As long as the counsel speaks into the

11 microphone rather than away from the microphone.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, there is a specific request that

13 you speak into the microphone, and perhaps overnight the technicians could

14 see why it is that the interpreter booth hardly can hear Mr. Piletta-Zanin

15 when I always hear him.

16 Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you very

18 much. I shall try to do what I can.

19 Q. Mr. Donia, we shall now resume. Now that we have solved this

20 minor technical problem and I am on the English channel and I hope that it

21 will work.

22 Very well. I'd like to go back in particular to your report and

23 to the period of time which has to do with the K and K administration,

24 the Austro-Hungarian administration in Bosnia. You speak about the Black

25 Hand. You mentioned the Black Hand. Did you do it of your own volition?

1 I mean, you did not mention the Black Hand?

2 A. No.

3 Q. But was it of your own choice? Did you do that on purpose?

4 A. It was of my own choice.

5 Q. Can you tell us why?

6 A. My report begins with the period 1990. This is a reference to

7 something that happened or was relevant to the history of the region some

8 75 years previous to that.

9 Q. Yes, indeed. But we see that in these proceedings there are often

10 historical references and I'd like you to tell us now, what is generally

11 meant by the word "Chetnik?"

12 A. The Chetnik term applies to groups of Serbian volunteers and

13 bandits who fought against the Ottoman administration in the late Ottoman

14 years and in the Balkan Wars. It was further used by the coalition of

15 groups headed by General Draza Mihailovic. In the Second World War. A

16 group of rebels or resistance fighters who were formed from remnants of

17 the Royal Yugoslav Army -- pardon me. And subsequently came to

18 collaborate with the Germans at times and were ultimately defeated by the

19 partisans in World War II.

20 In the 1990s, it was revived by some Serbian political leaders of

21 ultra-nationalist orientation to describe their paramilitary groups and

22 also was used in many cases by people who were under attack by Bosnian

23 Serb forces to describe the forces attacking them.

24 Q. Thank you, Mr. Donia. I heard the word "general" and the name,

25 and I believe that he was a royalist that you mentioned. But

1 unfortunately the name did not appear in the transcript. So could you

2 please repeat the name of that general?

3 A. Yes. General Draza Mihailovic.

4 Q. Could you please --

5 JUDGE ORIE: Overnight these names are corrected, so it is not

6 necessary to have the witness to repeat names again and again. It was

7 clearly audible in -- must be clearly audible on the tape.

8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

9 Q. Witness, you were telling us about a period covering a relatively

10 long chronologically period of time. Does the name "Amendola" ring any

11 bell?

12 A. No, not -- no.

13 Q. Witness, does the 16th of April, 1994, ring any bell?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Witness, does the name of Richard Davis ring any bell?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Isn't it true that Mr. Richard Davis is your colleague?

18 A. I don't know Mr. Richard Davis that I can recall.

19 Q. Can you tell us if this is 16th of April, 1944 is --

20 JUDGE ORIE: The second time that "44" appears on the

21 transcript as "94."

22 Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you.

24 Q. I am talking about 1944, 4-4. The 16th of April wasn't -- didn't

25 the Allied Forces, did the Allies bomb Belgrade on that date?

1 A. I don't know.

2 Q. Thank you.

3 Does Arthur Harris, is that a name that you are familiar with?

4 A. No.

5 Q. And the name "Spatz"?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Thank you, Witness. And what about Dresden, does that ring a

8 bell?

9 A. Dresden is a town in Germany.

10 Q. And what about the 13th and 14th of February, 1945, ring any bell

11 with you?

12 A. Not particularly, no.

13 Q. Witness, if I tell you that during -- that on those two days, the

14 Allied Air Force commanded by Arthur Harris launched two air raids

15 against Dresden, would you agree with me that that is a fact of history?

16 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I object to this question and, indeed,

17 the previous questions over the last three minutes or so, on the basis of

18 relevance.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, as a matter of fact, could you please explain to

20 us the relevance, but may I remind you if you ask about certain dates or

21 certain persons of whom the witness says that it doesn't -- that do not

22 ring a bell with him, that we have no idea of what it is about unless you

23 explain it to us. But on the latter part, you started to do so.

24 Nevertheless, it, we understand that it has got something to do with your

25 representation, and so please could you tell us the relevance.

1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. Very

2 well. The relevance is as follows: The Prosecution bases its position

3 on the existence of a campaign, on the existence of a campaign which

4 was supposedly, if not ordered, then accepted by General Galic, who went

5 along with it, and which resulted in a certain number of deaths. The

6 Defence challenges the existence of such a campaign and the number of

7 dead. What the Defence wishes to arrive at is to establish with this

8 witness who is an expert, as he told us, on the modern period, that is the

9 preceding century and the 19th century, because that not only a few years

10 ago but some decades ago there were also major bombings, and so that on

11 the basis of that, we could then eventually take all the necessary

12 decisions.

13 This person was called by the Prosecution as an expert historian,

14 and I believe the Defence is entitled to examine what happened in history

15 a few decades back and a few miles away from here.

16 [Trial Chamber confers]

17 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

19 Q. Witness, does "Bomber Harris" or the expression, the term, "Bomber

20 Harris," are you familiar with that?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Witness, as a historian expert in the 20th century history, are

23 you telling us that you never heard mentioned either General Spatz nor

24 Bomber Harris?

25 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I'm not aware of where Mr. Donia has

1 said that he was an expert in 20th century history. He has referred to

2 the modern period in the Balkans. Perhaps Mr. Piletta-Zanin can take us

3 back to what is the foundation for that question.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Would you please do so, Mr. Piletta-Zanin?

5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I will rephrase it, if I may.

6 If I may, please.

7 Q. Witness, didn't you sometime ago tell us that your area concerned

8 the 19th and the 20th century, that you specialised in those two

9 centuries?

10 A. I indicated I consider my specialty to be the lands of the former

11 Yugoslavia in the 19th and 20th centuries.

12 Q. Very well.

13 Would it be possible to study the history of that period whilst

14 isolating artificially a particular territory?

15 A. It is very possible, yes.

16 Q. You are telling me that it is possible to study the history of a

17 region without at the same time studying what went around that territory

18 at that same time, is that it?

19 A. It is possible and it is done all the time.

20 Q. Very well, I will take note of that.

21 You told me a moment ago that you were familiar with the word

22 "Dresden," which is the name of a city. Am I correct?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Very well. Do you know if towards the end of the war, the World

25 War II, do you know -- are you aware of massive bombing of Dresden towards

1 the end of the war and that the city was practically razed to the ground

2 as a result?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Very well. Thank you.

5 I am saying that let us assume, and I know that it was the 13th or

6 14th of February, 1945; are you aware of the number of victims which the

7 historians generally attributed to that particular bombing, to that

8 particular air raids?

9 A. No.

10 Q. And if I give you the figure of some 300.000 victims, the death

11 would be the ultimate magnitude and that they were mostly civilians, would

12 that jog your memory?

13 A. I don't know what the casualty figures were from the bombing, and

14 I can't speculate without some enquiry into the opinions of those who

15 studied that question.

16 Q. Thank you. I'd now like to -- Witness, does the name of "Little

17 Boy," ring a bell?

18 A. No.

19 Q. And what about "Fat Man"?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Does "Anola" or "Enola" mean anything to you, that is female first

22 name?

23 A. As a female first name, I am not certain -- that rings no bell.

24 If you're referring to the Enola Gay as an airplane, that was the name

25 given to an airplane in World War II.

1 Q. And what was that plane?

2 A. It was the plane that carried an atomic bomb that was dropped on,

3 I believe it was Hiroshima, in 1945.

4 Q. That is correct. Thank you for that answer. And the bomb was

5 called "Little Boy." Does it now ring a bell?

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Ierace.

7 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I appreciate the decision that you

8 made a few minutes ago in relation to the line of questioning, but this

9 quiz that my learned colleague is engaging is, in my respectful

10 submission, of no assistance. It is premised, having regard to my learned

11 colleague's last answer, it seems, on the presumption that the Prosecution

12 case is that the accused in this case sought to kill as many civilians as

13 possible. Mr. President, it should be apparent from the Prosecution

14 pre-trial brief that, whatever his orders were, that is not what he

15 intended to do, that is, he did not intend to destroy the city, in the

16 Prosecution case.

17 Mr. President, the Prosecution has a time limit on it to present

18 its case, and in my respectful submission, the Defence bears some

19 responsibility of limiting its questions to matters which are relevant and

20 approaching those matters in an efficient way, rather than playing a quiz

21 with the witness and then try to string together the last groups of 10

22 answers into one final question. Thank you.

23 [Trial Chamber confers]

24 JUDGE ORIE: The objection is sustained. Mr. Piletta-Zanin, if

25 you want to raise a certain issue, please come to the point and no

1 quizzes, please.

2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, I will do so. But before

3 that, will you allow me a comment, please. And it has to do with the

4 French transcript, which I am looking from the corner of my eye now, and

5 this seems to be important: "Mr. Galic has never intended to kill as many

6 witnesses as possible," and that is what came out on the French booth. I

7 would really like that to be corrected, with or without a quiz.

8 Q. Now, let us resume. Witness, how many civilian victims were there

9 after that first bomb?

10 MR. IERACE: I maintain my objection, Mr. President.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I think, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, you want to raise an

12 issue of comparison with historic events which caused a great number of

13 casualties. There is no problem with that. But it is of no use whether,

14 unless it is in dispute between the parties, whether it is 100.000,

15 200.000, a million, or 25.000. Make your point, ask questions

16 about what -- the issue you want to raise.

17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, I will do so,

18 Mr. President. I will ask this question:

19 Q. Does the figure -- does the figure of 180.000 victims seem

20 acceptable to you?

21 A. I don't know the number of victims and I can't speculate without

22 consulting some source of those who do know. Certainly, this order of

23 magnitude is a reasonable one.

24 Q. Thank you.

25 Do you know if the chief of the Pacific Air Force at the time,

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1 General Spatz was even brought to justice?

2 A. No.

3 Q. Do you know if the signature was -- of the person who signed that,

4 who ordered that bombing, and that was, if I am correct, President Truman,

5 was he ever subject to any kind of Prosecution?

6 MR. IERACE: Mr. President.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Ierace.

8 MR. IERACE: I object again to this line of questioning. It is

9 of no assistance, in my respectful submission, to equate the crimes that

10 are alleged to have been committed to General Galic to these historical

11 events. It is of no assistance in determining whether or not this accused

12 is guilty of the crimes with which he is charged.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, would you please respond?

14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, it is a

15 two-tiered matter. There is the General Galic's responsibility within an

16 alleged campaign and there are historical examples of true massacres of

17 civilians for -- and the Defence would like to know, whether yes or no,

18 historically speaking certain positions were taken by the international

19 community. And we would like to hear the answer to that and we would like

20 it on the record.

21 JUDGE ORIE: But massacres in the -- I would say in the recent

22 past which caused huge numbers of casualties, that remained not

23 prosecuted, not punished, is that in dispute between the parties? It is

24 not in dispute. So it is not an issue at this moment. Yes, please.

25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Well, then, thank you very

1 much.

2 Q. Witness, I am going to come back to a period that you are no doubt

3 more familiar with. It is the decade which preceded the 1990s in

4 Yugoslavia and Europe. Is it correct that you consider yourself to be a

5 specialist of both this particular period and this particular region?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Thank you.

8 Witness, let us place all this within context, properly. In order

9 to do that, could you confirm that the fall of the Berlin Wall happened in

10 1989?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Thank you for this answer. Can you confirm that the fall of

13 Mr. Ceausescu at the end of that year and he was executed in 1999 -- 1990?

14 A. 1990, yes.

15 Q. Thank you very much. I believe he was executed at the end of 1989

16 but, well, maybe it is 1990.

17 Witness, could we, as a consequence, consider that the end of the

18 1980s, in as far as Yugoslavia was concerned, it was formally the last

19 communist state in Europe?

20 A. Yes, I believe that is the case.

21 Q. Witness, I would like to move on to an easier question. I believe

22 that you were also interested in the economic situation in Yugoslavia with

23 regard to that specific period; is that correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Thank you. Witness, have you looked at the developments in the

1 GDP in Yugoslavia of that time?

2 A. No, not specifically at the GDP numbers.

3 Q. Thank you. Generally speaking, could you confirm that during that

4 particular period, the one that we are referring to now, Yugoslavia was

5 faced with worsening economic crisis?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Could you confirm that that was the case, Witness, for all of the

8 republics, all of the six republics which made up former Yugoslavia; it

9 was more serious for some and less for the others?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Witness, could you -- could we say that in that period former

12 Yugoslavia was moving towards general impoverishment?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Thank you for this reply. Witness, in the course of that period,

15 have you had any information at all about the existence of any economic

16 assistance, either from Europe, the European Community, that is, or from

17 the U.S., the United States of America?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. What can you say about that?

20 A. There were many loans extended and development grants made from

21 principally the U.S., but also the European Community.

22 Q. Is it not true to consider that by the end of the 1980s that

23 assistance was cut drastically?

24 A. Yes, toward the very end of the 1980s.

25 Q. Thank you.

1 This is a question I am putting to a historian, that is to say, an

2 expert. Well, do you think in view of the overall situation that you are

3 familiar with, that this restriction or decrease in aid could have lead to

4 certain social movements or events such as the ones we are discussing

5 today?

6 A. I think it was a minor factor.

7 Q. Could you tell us why, Witness?

8 A. The much more deep cause of the economic crisis and consequent

9 social movements were the internal situation within Yugoslavia, the rapid

10 inflation, the political crisis, and the general deterioration of

11 productivity.

12 Q. To the extent that there had been an overall deterioration of

13 production, wasn't it then obvious that that situation would necessarily

14 lead to a clear crisis between various components of the Yugoslav nation

15 or the Yugoslav state?

16 A. No, I don't think it was inevitable.

17 Q. Witness, have you followed the developments whereby at a certain

18 point what is normally referred to as Yugoslav secession took place?

19 A. I am sorry, I am not quite clear what you mean by "Yugoslav

20 secession or succession."

21 Q. I do apologise. What I meant by secession, I meant the point of

22 time when different republics, starting from Slovenia, started to secede,

23 legally separate or practically separate, from the former Yugoslavia.

24 A. Yes, I did follow that.

25 Q. Thank you. Have you examined the positions of all the various

1 protagonists within Europe in relation to this matter of international

2 recognition?

3 A. I have not examined the position of all protagonists, but the

4 primary ones.

5 Q. Have you, Witness, examined the position of the main protagonists,

6 which were Germany on the one hand, the newly united Germany on the one

7 hand and France on the other hand?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Witness, thank you for this answer.

10 Perhaps the name Jacques Attali tells you something?

11 A. No.

12 Q. I would like to go back to my previous question. As far as you

13 know, Witness, is it correct that the French position, as expressed by

14 President Francois Mitterand at the time, was one of urgent waiting - if I

15 may use this term - "urgent waiting" without proceeding to whatever sort

16 of immediate international recognition?

17 A. That is a reasonably accurate characterisation, yes.

18 Q. Thank you for that reply, Witness. This is not a quiz. But do

19 you know for what reason basically the French Presidency and the French

20 Cabinet did not wish to proceed too rapidly in the direction of that

21 international recognition?

22 A. You are speaking recognition of the independence of Slovenia and

23 Croatia. I think, for their position, they wished to act as part of the

24 European Community and wished to avoid any direct involvement on their own

25 in the process.

1 Q. Fine.

2 Is that -- is it correct that we are talking about the formal

3 application, but, Witness, don't you think that there was some fundamental

4 reasons due to which France, in other words the French Presidency, wished

5 to put a break in this mechanism, which, as we know, has led to the

6 break-up of the former Yugoslavia?

7 A. Well, I think I have just identified what I understand to be

8 France's position, and I'm sure there are other reasons that went into its

9 particular role in the crisis. But those would be the primary ones I

10 would identify.

11 Q. I am going to come back to this question. Thank you.

12 Is it not correct that, on the other hand, the other partner from

13 the Franco-German Acts, Germany, that is, that they wish to rather speed

14 up the process of legal disintegration?

15 A. I am not -- I wouldn't agree with your characterization that they

16 wished to accelerate the process of legal disintegration. The German

17 government did, in fact, favour recognition, and acted to recognise the

18 independence of Slovenia and Croatia in advance of [Realtime transcript

19 read in error "and"] the European Community decision in December 1991.

20 Q. In December 1991, you are certain of your date there, Witness?

21 A. The recognition announcement was made -- of the European

22 Community -- was made in January of 1992 and I believe the German

23 announcement of its intent to recognise was December 19 or 21. Something

24 like that.

25 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I notice there are some words missing

1 from the English transcript. I don't know whether they would have been

2 caught by the evening review. Page 48, line 17, after Croatia, I think

3 the words "in advance of," should be inserted before the European

4 decision.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that is what my recollection is as well.

6 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, would you please look at line 17 of page 48.

7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [In English] Which line, sir?

8 JUDGE ORIE: 17. It reads: "enacted to recognise the independence

9 of Slovenia and Croatia in advance or of the European decision in December

10 1991." Is that your recollection, Mr. Ierace?

11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: I believe so, but we could turn to the witness

12 and insert his answer.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Of the question of Mr. Piletta-Zanin, whether the

14 Germans wished to speed up, I just briefly mention now, that your answer,

15 the German government did in fact favour recognition and acted to

16 recognise the independence of Slovenia and Croatia --

17 THE WITNESS: In advance of the European Community decision and

18 the date of December 1991 pertains to the German decision, the German act,

19 not the European Community decision which was subsequent to January, 15th,

20 1992.

21 JUDGE ORIE: You clarified that in your later answers.

22 Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you.

24 Q. To come back to this specific point once again, is it not true,

25 Witness, that the German government had almost given an ultimatum to the

1 European Community by saying that if the Community did not recognise, we

2 are going to recognise these new states on our own independently. Does it

3 remind you of anything?

4 A. Well, it reminds me that specifically the German government

5 announced its intent to recognise in advance of the conclusions of the

6 Badinter Commission, which were not reached until early January and

7 announced on 15 January. Whether it issued an ultimatum to the European

8 Community, I am not aware.

9 Q. Thank you for this reply, Witness.

10 You are at the moment an honorary professor at the University of

11 Sarajevo, that's my understanding; is it correct?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Since you are at the philosophy faculty, I believe that, in fact,

14 it also includes the history department?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Thank you for this reply.

17 Since you were appointed by the authorities, we might be led to

18 think that you have good connections in Sarajevo?

19 A. I am not too sure what the question is.

20 Q. I believe, I mean that you have good connections in Sarajevo since

21 you are in a way perhaps an employee of the University of Sarajevo, you

22 teach there?

23 JUDGE ORIE: That is still not a question, Mr. Piletta-Zanin. You

24 told the witness what you believe to be.

25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Is it correct?

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that's a question.

2 Q. It is correct?

3 A. I do not teach there. This, I emphasise, was an honorary

4 designation. I understand it to involve no work.

5 Q. Witness, have you had any stays -- have you visited

6 Bosnia-Herzegovina recently?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Could you tell us when?

9 A. I last visited in February of this year.

10 Q. 2002 then?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. You visited Sarajevo in your capacity as a historian?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Witness, do you have access to the press published in Sarajevo?

15 A. Yes, most of it.

16 Q. I believe you can read Serbian perfectly; is that correct?

17 A. Unfortunately, not perfectly, but well.

18 Q. Do you know whether as a consequence as a poorer reader -- well,

19 that's not exactly what I meant to say --

20 THE INTERPRETER: Says Mr. Piletta-Zanin, correcting the English

21 version.

22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN:

23 Q. Since you are barely capable to read the local newspapers, but

24 even so, do you feel you can gain access to certain information in

25 relation to some certain massacres?

1 A. I don't specifically know. I'd have to know specifically what you

2 mean in order to answer your question.

3 Q. Do you know whether the local newspapers ever referred to the

4 so-called Kazani graves?

5 A. I am sorry, no.

6 Q. Witness, have you yourself ever found any reference at all to the

7 so-called Kazani mass grave?

8 A. I don't understand your reference.

9 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I object to the question on the basis

10 of relevance.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, if you have difficulty explaining

12 it to us in the presence of the witness, please let us know.

13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I have no difficulty

14 whatsoever in explaining it you because I believe the witness is

15 completely competent pertaining to all matters of history. First of all,

16 we need to put things into perspective and we must try to find out whether

17 there could have been any mechanisms which at a certain point might have

18 triggered off such and such an attack. It may well happen that a massacre

19 happened at a certain part, logically could have provoked a given reaction

20 on the part of the other party. So it is important for us to find out

21 what could have happened at a given point in time, and we even have

22 specific, precise dates here. I am astonished that the Prosecution seems

23 to be surprised because they, themselves, have submitted the document that

24 I am referring to. So I'm just trying to figure out if the witness is

25 familiar with those events which happened at a certain point.

1 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, but I think at the very moment you

2 could come quicker to the point. We don't have any objection, but if you

3 first ask whether he has read it in the newspapers, then whether he heard

4 it on the radio, then whether he heard it on television -- I assume that

5 you want to come to the point.

6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Straight away. Thank you very

7 much.

8 Q. Witness, do you know whether there had been a massacre in

9 connection with the so-called Kazani grave whereby several thousands or

10 perhaps hundreds of dead bodies, Serb bodies, were buried?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Thank you. One last point. Since you have followed this

13 particular period in history very closely, unfortunately, do you know

14 whether in this particular period that we are looking at, 1992, 1993 and

15 1994, the media were easily accessible, the information from the media was

16 easily accessible in Sarajevo?

17 A. Accessible to whom?

18 Q. Your average man in the street.

19 A. To the average man in the street in Sarajevo, in general, during

20 this period, yes.

21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I have no

22 further questions at this stage and it is my colleague, Mrs. Pilipovic,

23 who is going to continue, unless the break is approaching.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic. Please proceed.

25 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

1 Cross-examined by Ms. Pilipovic:

2 Q. [Interpretation] Good day, Mr. Donia.

3 A. Good evening.

4 Q. Sir, as a person who has studied history for a long time - I can

5 see that you have got your doctorate in history as well - can you agree

6 with me if I say that historians always keep one unpleasant fact in mind,

7 that is to say, that factual truth can never be establish with any degree

8 of certainty and that, in some instances, it is impossible?

9 A. No.

10 Q. But you do tell us -- well, since you have answered no, but you do

11 say that certain periods in history may be studied on the basis of facts

12 referred to by historians, that they can be studied and statements can be

13 made with a great deal of certainty?

14 A. There are some periods about which one can have greater

15 certainty than other periods. In general, one can establish greater

16 certainty in the modern period than in the early modern or ancient

17 periods. But sometimes there are islands of mystery in the modern period

18 as well. I think it depends on the fact base, the documentation

19 available, how close one can approach determining what actually happened.

20 Q. Thank you.

21 Witness, can you tell us how come you take an interest in

22 General Galic's case?

23 A. I have a long-standing interest in Sarajevo, the city and the

24 area, and began about two years ago to prepare a study of the history of

25 the city. So consequently my interest in the city's past, into the dark,

1 faraway Ottoman period and in the more modern period has always been

2 strong.

3 Q. Specifically with regard to your expert report, can you tell us

4 what was your task specifically? Rather, what were you told to cover?

5 A. I was asked to prepare a background report to the events of the

6 period of the indictment which pertain to the immediate post-election time

7 from November 1990 until the summer of 1992. I was asked to do that in

8 ten pages, which you and Your Honours will recognise, I exceeded,

9 but tried to do within a very limited and as concise as possible form.

10 Q. Are you telling us that in your expert report, you examined the

11 period of 1990, 1991, and 1992?

12 A. Until the summer of 1992.

13 Q. Were you asked to do that as a historian?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. I believe you have your -- you have a copy of your report before

16 you, don't you?

17 A. Yes, I do.

18 Q. Before I'll ask you more specific questions emanating from your

19 report, I would like to ask you to tell us, and this has to be with the

20 substance of your report: In view of what you say on -- of your report

21 which covers 28 pages, together with footnotes -- no, sorry, 23 pages, and

22 footnotes are included there, is that the contents of your report and are

23 the footnotes, do the footnotes make a part of your report? That is, can

24 we see them as an integral part of your part, as part and parcel of your

25 report?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. In your report, you also speak about some natural features of the

3 city of Sarajevo. Could you tell us what were the sources on which your

4 conclusions were based in those parts where we speak about characteristics

5 of Bosnia-Herzegovina and the region of Sarajevo?

6 A. Can you be specific about what section you are looking at?

7 Q. Witness, I am looking at page three of your report. And there in

8 passage three, "The city extended westward several kilometres as

9 skyscrapers were built in a valley and on the hills around the old city,

10 around Stari Grad, and then extending further, the city also encompassed

11 several rural areas." Mr. Donia, I apologise, it is page three of the

12 translation. I do not have the original version. Perhaps my colleague

13 has it and can help me to make it more efficient. It is right underneath

14 the title "The Nationalists Replace Communists." The next passage when

15 you refer to Sarajevo.

16 JUDGE ORIE: I think it's on the first page. The third paragraph.

17 THE WITNESS: Yes, I see it. It is on the first text page of the

18 report. And I have a footnote there, but this is, I mean, from personal

19 observation, the awareness of the city's expansive area known as

20 Sarajevsko Polje, to the west and south and, to some degree, north of the

21 downtown area, principally west of the downtown area. And there are

22 numerous studies of the building of the urban area or urban residential

23 areas to the west. I didn't cite any particular one because it seemed to

24 me there was no particular contention about that simple characterization.

25 Q. So you are telling us that when I asked you what sources that you

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1 used, that those were your personal observations; is that it?

2 A. Among other things.

3 Q. Can you tell us, before you did this report, how often did you

4 visit Sarajevo?

5 A. Some 20, 25 times.

6 Q. Can you tell us when was that? Can you give us the time frame,

7 that is up to 1990?

8 A. I visited first in 1965, was there several times during the 1970s,

9 and once in 1985.

10 Q. Now, can you tell us -- you have answered, you have told me what

11 was your task. Can you now tell us how much time did you spend preparing

12 your report, your opinion, including the time that you used for the

13 preparation of your expert report?

14 A. About 15 days.

15 Q. Can you tell us when did you start work on your expert report or

16 rather when were you asked to do that? When was that?

17 A. I believe in November of 2001.

18 Q. Mr. Donia, in your expert report you speak about the

19 regionalisation in Bosnia-Herzegovina. Can you tell us again, what were

20 the sources that underpin your conclusions about these social and economic

21 causes of the crisis in Bosnia-Herzegovina on the eve of the war?

22 A. I think that's two questions. The regionalisation campaign had

23 little to do with the second part of the question, which is the economic

24 and social sources of the crisis. So, if I can answer the second part of

25 your question first, the late 1980s brought severe inflation and an effort

1 to reduce this inflation through the reforms of Ante Markovic. And those

2 were basically unsuccessful and produced a drastic drop in productivity

3 and living standards that contributed, I think, substantially to the

4 crisis, the economic crisis and the subsequent political movements that

5 arose. Regionalisation, as I explained in the paper, was a term used to

6 describe the SDS campaign, to create one party, single nationality control

7 over certain territories of Bosnia-Herzegovina. And cited some of those

8 factors --

9 Q. Mr. Donia, we shall come to that later. My question was: What

10 sources did you use in preparing your report, in preparing this part of

11 your report?

12 A. I have examined the periodical press from Banja Luka, Sarajevo and

13 in some other cases other publications and the minutes of the SDS assembly

14 sessions and certain other documents pertaining to the regionalisation

15 campaign, which were in the possession of the Office of the Prosecutor.

16 Q. So you are telling us that you prepared your expert report and

17 that the source of the documents was the documentation that you received

18 from the Prosecutor's office and the press; is that it?

19 A. Well, I think I should certainly state that I spent considerable

20 time prior to the time that I entered in the preparation of this report in

21 the study of the city of Sarajevo in the 20th century and consequently

22 have looked at a wide variety of documents, periodical press, local

23 documents over a century or more of time. So, I would add that there is

24 some, let's say general, preparation which is behind the specific report

25 that you have in front of you.

1 Q. Can you tell us this: In your expert report, there is a chapter

2 entitled "The Military Preparations and the Road to War." Could you tell

3 us what were the sources that you used for your conclusions on the

4 military aspects of the crisis and the armed conflict in

5 Bosnia-Herzegovina?

6 A. I think the specific sources are cited in footnotes. There are --

7 there is ample documentation on the role of -- I have to go kind of

8 sentence by sentence, section by section. There is substantial

9 documentation on the role of the SDA-sponsored military groups that is in

10 published form: Interviews in the periodic press, a couple of memoirs.

11 The information on the Croatian paramilitary group is derived from

12 periodic press information, from a series of books written about the

13 Yugoslav crisis and subsequent dissolution of Yugoslavia. I can go and

14 give you further information, if you wish.

15 Q. Thank you, Mr. Donia.

16 At some point, speaking about the literature you said you also

17 used some memoirs. Could you tell us whose, that is, whose book was it?

18 A. Well, I have made reference to a number of memoirs, made reference

19 to the memoir-istic recollections of General Kukanjac, to the memoirs of

20 General Kadijevic, also referred to the -- although not cited here -- the

21 memoirs of General Siber, of Mr. Jovic, which is a diary in memoir form.

22 I've looked at the memoirs of General Halilovic and General Efendic. I've

23 looked at the memoir literature, perhaps not all of it, but a number of

24 those works.

25 Q. When preparing your report, did you also visit Republika Srpska

1 and did you use literature -- or were the documents in Republika Srpska

2 also the source for your report -- or rather the first question, have you

3 ever visited Republika Srpska?

4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace.

5 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, my learned colleague has changed the

6 wording of the question, by now I have no objection.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Ms. Pilipovic.

8 THE WITNESS: Yes, I have.

9 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. Mr. Donia, when preparing your expert report, did you use

11 documents from Republika Srpska?

12 A. I have conducted some interviews in Republika Srpska and used

13 documents from the territory that is now part of Republika Srpska. I have

14 not referenced those documents while in Republika Srpska.

15 Q. Can you tell us which were those documents even though there are

16 no references to them, but they nevertheless helped you write this

17 report?

18 A. I must take exception, there are references to them throughout

19 the report. These are minutes of the SDS -- I am sorry, the assembly of

20 the Serbian people of Bosnia-Herzegovina; the newspaper Glas in Banja

21 Luka. I have also looked at but not referenced here the minutes of the

22 meetings of the Bosnian Krajina Assembly, and have, I believe, here cited

23 as well the newspaper that was put out initially in Sarajevo and then, I

24 believe, moved to Pale, which was the Javnost, the publication of the

25 SDS.

1 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, if you could find a suitable moment

2 within the next one or two minutes to give us an opportunity to have a

3 break.

4 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, of course, Your Honour.

5 Q. Mr. Donia, by analysing the documents that you used for your

6 expert report, and by making reference to the footnotes, can we agree that

7 80 per cent of your material came from the newspaper Oslobodenje, when it

8 comes to the press, and two articles carried by Banja Luka Glas, but that

9 one can conclude that it was principally Oslobodenje, a paper which is

10 published in Sarajevo and Slobodna Bosna, also published in Sarajevo?

11 A. No.

12 Q. So, can you confirm that you also used other printed press, but

13 did not mention it in the footnotes? Is that what you want to tell us?

14 A. I believe your question was: Could I confirm that 80 per cent of

15 the citations were from Oslobodenje. I cannot.

16 Q. Can you confirm it to us that it was by and large Oslobodenje that

17 you used, that it was your chief source?

18 A. Oslobodenje is an important source for this paper, yes. It is one

19 of several important sources.

20 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I think this would be

21 a convenient time for the break. Thank you.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Ms. Pilipovic. We will adjourn until five

23 minutes to 6.00.

24 --- Recess taken at 5.36 p.m.

25 --- Upon resuming at 5.51 p.m.

1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace.

2 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, just before we resume

3 cross-examination, I would be grateful if my learned colleagues could

4 indicate whether they expect the cross-examination will last all of

5 tomorrow. That will assist in arranging for the attendance of the next

6 witness, if that's required before Monday. Thank you.

7 JUDGE ORIE: So the question is, as a matter of fact whether the

8 any time remain tomorrow to call any -- could you give us an indication,

9 Ms. Pilipovic.

10 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I think that yes, my

11 cross-examination would take the whole of tomorrow. Because of the

12 document that we were given yesterday and today, we simply cannot be all

13 that efficient. I really do not know what else we shall be using and what

14 we shall be showing to the witness because it was only yesterday that I

15 was given documents and tapes, and especially documents with footnotes.

16 That is it. We simply received it only yesterday. Otherwise, perhaps it

17 would have been more efficient, but I shall do my best not to go beyond --

18 not to ask any questions beyond the report.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But, Mr. Ierace, are there any witnesses

20 available, if you would have some remaining time tomorrow?

21 MR. IERACE: Yes, Mr. President, there was a witness that we would

22 have called before Mr. Donia and he is waiting. But he understood that he

23 may not be required before -- until Monday.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. On the other hand, to send him back again, that

25 is no option, I think. So let's try to use our time as efficiently as

1 possible. You indicated you would need two days. So it is already a

2 little bit less if you would finish by tomorrow.

3 Please proceed, Ms. Pilipovic.

4 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, thank you, Your Honour.

5 Q. Mr. Donia, in your expert report, you addressed some military

6 questions as well. Can you tell us if you are an expert on matters

7 military, on military strategy and other military matters?

8 A. I don't consider myself an expert on military strategy or military

9 matters, no.

10 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence would

11 like to show the witness a conclusion. The Defence can read it and the

12 witness can read it himself. It is a conclusion on page 15 of the

13 translation, before the footnotes. It is six lines long.

14 JUDGE ORIE: I mean, the report will be admitted into evidence, I

15 assume, so therefore it is not necessary to read. We have all read it and

16 Mr. Donia has even written it. So ask him whatever questions you would

17 like about the conclusion.

18 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. Mr. Donia, you have before you your conclusion.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Page 14 in the English text.

21 THE WITNESS: Yes.

22 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. Mr. Donia, you have your conclusion before you. Do you still

24 stand by your conclusion that there was a siege of Sarajevo?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. Could you define the siege.

2 A. This was a military encirclement that controlled or prevented

3 entry or egress from the city.

4 Q. Mr. Donia, can you tell us on the basis of which sources did you

5 establish that there was a siege of the city of Sarajevo?

6 A. Cited on page 12 of the English language report are assertions

7 from General Mladic, the SDS President Karadzic, Trifko Radic and Dragan

8 Kalinic, statements to that effect. There are certainly numerous other

9 sources which speak to the limitation of movement into and out of the city

10 and the fact that it was militarily encircled, but I think those are very

11 plain indications from the -- some of the principle personalities that

12 there was a siege and it was sustained.

13 Q. So you are telling us that from the documents that you got from

14 the Prosecution and, specifically, when you mention these statements by

15 General Mladic, by Mr. Radic and Mr. Kalenic, you are referring to the

16 Serbian assembly held on the 12th of May 1990, is that it?

17 A. 12th of May, 1992. That is a transcript of the session of the

18 Serbian assembly. The siege is also referred to in the documents of

19 numerous visitors. I have cited, for example, Mr. Mazowiecki's visit and

20 I've cited, of course, a number of the United Nations Security Council

21 resolutions dealing with the siege. And also the conference of the -- the

22 London conference notations regarding the international discussion of that

23 by negotiators.

24 Q. Mr. Donia, I will go back to the questions which are related to

25 the minutes of the session of the Serb assembly on the 12th of May, and I

1 will ask you some questions about it. But apart from those minutes, I

2 would just like to hear your assessment of these statements of people whom

3 you mentioned a while ago who were present at this assembly. You also

4 said that you used some other sources.

5 Could you tell us which are those other sources, as you called

6 them?

7 A. I think I just gave them to you, the other sources that I cited.

8 Q. So you are saying that other documents that you quoted can also be

9 found in the footnotes, the documents that you used in arriving at your

10 conclusion that what one was dealing with was the siege of Sarajevo?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. So, we can agree that, apart from the documents that you referred

13 to in your expert report, you did not use any other documents which would

14 support your conclusion about the definition of the siege?

15 A. I referred to many other documents. I have not included them in

16 the report. I have not provided a definition of the siege in the report,

17 I just gave you my understanding of what a siege is. So the answer to

18 your question, I think, is, no, we can't agree on that.

19 Q. Can you tell us -- you have just told us that you gave your view,

20 which of those other documents that you used since we did not agree

21 beforehand, apart from the documents that are indicated in the footnotes?

22 Could you quote a book or a document?

23 A. I've already indicated a substantial collection memoirs which I

24 have consulted; the United Nations Commission of Experts; I have looked at

25 numerous international press reports. I also had the experience myself

1 of being in beseiged Sarajevo in July of 1994 and January of 1995. The

2 documentary record on the siege, it seems to me, is extraordinarily rich,

3 and virtually every visitor who came to Sarajevo in that period and wrote

4 about it so reported.

5 Q. So you are telling us that you were in Sarajevo in 1993 and also

6 1994? Did I understand you right?

7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace.

8 MR. IERACE: Since my friend has rephrased the question, I don't

9 object.

10 THE WITNESS: I think it is 1994 and 1995 we are talking about.

11 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. And as to say 1993 and 1994, but I accept -- I accept your

13 statement that it was 1994 and 1995.

14 And during your visits in Sarajevo, you told us that there were

15 numerous documents and that supposedly includes your stay, but did you

16 have -- did you have any opportunity to see military documents of the army

17 of BH?

18 A. I have seen a number of published documents, yes.

19 Q. Can you tell us which are the documents that you had the

20 opportunity to see?

21 A. There are some documents that were published in General Efendic's

22 book, "Tko Ja Branio Sarajevo." And I believe, in the appendix to General

23 Halilov's book, there are some published documents. There are -- I can't

24 recall other works that I have seen these things in, but there are a

25 number of those documents that have been published, some of them quite

1 recently, in accounts by Bosnian army officers.

2 Q. So you are telling us that you are aware of the existence of the

3 army of BH and the activities of the army of BH. Can you give us the

4 names of military units holding positions in and around Sarajevo?

5 A. You have asked two questions there. Am I aware of the army of BH

6 and some of its activities? Yes, I am. Could I give you names of

7 military units' holding positions in and around Sarajevo? No, I can't

8 give you a list of all positions that were held in and around Sarajevo.

9 At one point, I know these came under the command of the 1st Corps of the

10 Army of BH and that the -- I also am aware that the 15th of April, 1992

11 Presidency declaration put all units under a common command which at that

12 time was designated, I believe, Territorial Defence, and subsequently

13 became the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

14 Q. Did you have any information as to the number of armed soldiers?

15 You have just told us that on the 15th of April, 1992, the Territorial

16 Defence grew into the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina. Do you have any

17 information as to the type of the armaments that they had and how many

18 armed soldiers were there in the army of BH?

19 A. Let me just go back and characterise that statement. I think the

20 way I gave it originally, on the 15th of April, 1992, all units were

21 brought under a common command which at that time was the Territorial

22 Defence. That force subsequently became or grew into the army of

23 Bosnia-Herzegovina formally in the summer of 1992, and I am not certain of

24 the date. I do not know the total number of soldiers that were under arms

25 of the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina in total, nor specifically in Sarajevo.

1 It would number in the thousands in the case of Sarajevo, but I don't know

2 beyond that, that I could characterise it.

3 Q. During the preparation of your expert report and the time when you

4 were wording your conclusion, the one that we are talking about now, you

5 said that you did not -- that you had not looked at the documents of the

6 BH army, that your knowledge came from books written after the war, but

7 did you also ever endeavour to consult some sources from the Serb side at

8 the time when you were thinking about your conclusion?

9 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I object to the question. There is a

10 loose connection between that question and the evidence the witness has

11 recently given which causes me to submit that the question lacks any

12 probative value. The witness has already indicated at some length what

13 sources he used for that conclusion from the Serb side by referring my

14 learned colleague back to page 12 of his report. Therefore, the question,

15 in my respectful submission, lacks any probative value.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic.

17 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, Your Honour, my

18 questions refer to Mr. Donia's conclusion. We are talking about the

19 siege, that is the conclusion that it was the siege of Sarajevo. In my

20 question, so are of a more general nature at first, but now I am talking

21 about the conclusion that is about the word, "siege," and I believe it is

22 relevant for the Defence to get information because Mr. Donia has just

23 told us that the army of BH was formed on the 15th of April 1992, that it

24 grew out of the Territorial Defence, that he used certain documents and

25 therefore my interest there rests with --

1 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, I do understand your explanation. It

2 was not clear from your question. Do I understand that you want to ask

3 the witness whether he has consulted any Serbian sources when reaching the

4 conclusion that Sarajevo was sieged at that time?

5 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, that was the

6 purpose of my question, whether he had referred to any documents from the

7 RS Army, thank you.

8 JUDGE ORIE: So in reaching that conclusion, if that was the

9 question, it was not the words of the question, then the objection is

10 denied. You may answer the question, Mr. Donia.

11 THE WITNESS: May I ask which question I am answering?

12 JUDGE ORIE: As I formulated it, I think "do I understand, I said

13 that you, that is Ms. Pilipovic, want to ask the witness whether he has

14 consulted any Serbian sources when reaching the conclusion that Sarajevo

15 was siege at that time?" I think that is the question.

16 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

17 THE WITNESS: Yes, as I indicated earlier, I have cited Serbian

18 sources in the first instance. These were statements, proclamations,

19 speeches at the session of 12 May, 1992. I have also looked at the

20 interviews with General Mladic and a book about him in which he has

21 interviewed extensively which I think assist in that determination. But I

22 would say for this report my citation is principally of Serbian sources

23 and, principally, statements at that meeting.

24 JUDGE ORIE: I hear some sounds, quite loud. I don't know where

25 they come from. I don't hear them any more. Please proceed, Ms.

1 Pilipovic.

2 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. Mr. Donia, you said that when working on your report and reaching

4 your conclusions in your expert report, you looked into no military

5 documents from the Republika Srpska army?

6 A. I did not make that statement. That's not an accurate

7 characterisation of what I said. I indeed looked at numerous statements

8 by the leadership of the army of Republika Srpska, specifically, General

9 Mladic, and I would consider that a document of the army of Republika

10 Srpska.

11 Q. Has the statement by General Mladic from the assembly of the 12th

12 of May, 1992, and the part that you have quoted here, is something you

13 consider proof and the document you reference that you used in order to

14 reach your conclusion?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Have you, in the course of your stay in Sarajevo, in

17 Bosnia-Herzegovina, in the period of time between 1994 and 1995 ever

18 interviewed General Mladic, have you ever talked to him?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Did you, in that period, have interviews with General Stanislav

21 Galic?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Did you, when preparing your expert report, or in the period of

24 time that you spent in Sarajevo, you said you were there in the 90s and

25 1994 and 1994, have you ever had the opportunity to meet or talk to Mr.

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7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

1 Radovan Karadzic?

2 A. No.

3 Q. You told us that you are not a military expert, but in spite of

4 that you deal with military matters and you draw conclusions. Can you

5 agree with me that it is the realm, the area of competence of military

6 experts?

7 A. What is the realm -- I am sorry, I don't understand your question.

8 Q. I told you that, as a Defence counsel, when reading through your

9 report, I reached a conclusion or rather you, yourself, said you were not

10 a military expert, but in spite of that we can both agree that you deal

11 with military matters and you reach conclusions on those matters. Is it

12 within your area of competence to look into military matters, to carry out

13 analyses of the actions of military commanders and their statements? Can

14 you agree with me that it is not within the realm of a historian but

15 within the area of competence of a military expert?

16 A. No, I don't agree. I think the role of a historian in a situation

17 like this is to assess the military situation together with social,

18 political, economic factors, and reach a general assessment of these

19 matters as part of a broad and entire situation. And that inevitably

20 leads one into military matters in the case of an armed conflict. I

21 certainly would distinguish that between a military expert who would be

22 trained in matters of tactics and strategy and particular weaponry and

23 weaponry capability. Those are not matters that are my primary interest

24 or concern, but I think that a military situation must be assessed as part

25 of the broad context in which events occur.

1 Q. Are you telling us that, according to you, a military expert would

2 be somebody who could carry out an analysis of a situation within a

3 broader context, analysing military documents, referring to the period of

4 time referred to here, with reference to General Stanislav Galic, and that

5 that would be the appropriate person to come up with the real definition

6 of siege of the city?

7 A. No.

8 Q. In your conclusion on page two after the term, "the army of the

9 Republika Srpska," you said: "And the forces of the Bosnian Serbs under

10 the command of Mladic and the leadership of Karadzic were vastly superior

11 in power," et cetera. Is it a conclusion?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. When you say Mladic's command and Karadzic leadership, do you make

14 a distinction between the armed forces of the Republika Srpska and the

15 forces under Mladic's command and Karadzic's leadership? Is my

16 understanding correct or not?

17 JUDGE ORIE: May I just interrupt. There seems to be some

18 confusion about -- as to the reference to page two to which I do

19 understand is line two of the conclusion. That is what you are referring

20 to?

21 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. Thank you.

22 Q. Mr. Donia, did I make myself clear? Since your wording may be

23 ambiguous to my mind, that is to say, it is not clear to me whether you

24 made a distinction between the armed forces of the Republika Srpska and

25 forces under Mladic's command and Karadzic's leadership?

1 A. In this sentence, I state that the Bosnian Serb forces were under

2 Mladic's command and Karadzic's leadership, and that those forces enjoyed

3 an overwhelming advantage in weaponry. I am aware that the statement that

4 they are under Mladic's command is not the same as saying that they are

5 under Karadzic's leadership, and I am certainly also aware that there was

6 not always harmony prevailing between those two persons. But I think the

7 general statement that the Bosnian Serb forces were under Mladic's command

8 and Karadzic's leadership is valid and hardly requires a military

9 specialist to reach that conclusion. And would certainly say that the

10 overwhelming advantage in weaponry was evident to every observer at the

11 time and is reflected in the host of not only press statements, but as

12 reflected in the documents of the Republika Srpska as well.

13 Q. Can you tell us what are those documents you are referring to?

14 Are you referring to the documents you quote in your footnotes, or are

15 there some other documents?

16 A. I think I have indicated several times now that the documentation

17 from the Republika Srpska -- Assembly of the Serbian people of

18 Bosnia-Herzegovina is replete with references to these things both at the

19 session of 12 May and the 1995 50th session which address such matters.

20 Those are documents of the Republika Srpska or whatever its iteration was

21 known as at that time.

22 Q. Thank you, Mr. Donia.

23 The Defence is in the possession of these documents and we will

24 ask several questions in relation to those documents, but you are

25 confirming once again that these are the documents that we are talking

1 about. Once, you used the term documents and I thought you referred to

2 something else. Do you, as a historian, have any data as to whether there

3 was absolute unity between political and military authorities in the

4 Muslim side, that is to say, the BH Army and the political leadership of

5 the BH Army and the state?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Do you have any information as to the conflicts within the BH

8 Army?

9 A. Yes, there is. The memoirs of the Bosnian army commanders are

10 made up in substantial measure of such conflicts. They pertain to a

11 number of disputes about strategy and about leadership of the Bosnian

12 armed forces.

13 Q. Do you have any knowledge of the fact that in 1993 and 1994 there

14 were some -- there were some armed conflict in Sarajevo between commanders

15 of different military units?

16 A. I am aware that there was armed conflict between commanders, yes.

17 Q. Can you confirm that that armed conflict between commanders spread

18 and involved certain military formations?

19 A. Well, it is hard to characterise it beyond -- excuse me, beyond

20 what I have. Did it spread, I don't know. It was at times widespread and

21 I think that some of the conflicts came from different sources rather than

22 a single disagreement.

23 Q. So you are telling us that the conflicts, the armed conflict

24 within the BH Army involving different military formations were of a wider

25 scope?

1 A. Wider than what? I referred to conflicts between commanders in, I

2 think you asked me, about 1993, 1994. There were conflicts beyond those

3 armed conflicts among commanders and their units in Sarajevo, yes.

4 Q. Do you know anything about the consequences of such armed

5 conflict?

6 A. I don't know what you are referring to.

7 Q. You just told us that you do know of the existence of some such

8 conflict. I am going to try to rephrase my question.

9 Do you know anything about the nature of the consequences of such

10 armed conflict?

11 A. Well, they divided -- divided the Bosnian army in north-western

12 Bosnia and resulted in some changes of command within the army in

13 Sarajevo.

14 Q. Do you know anything about there being any armed conflict between

15 military units within Sarajevo after those changes? What I mean, is

16 within the BH Army?

17 A. I am not too sure what period you refer to. I would only say that

18 I am aware that there were conflicts among commanders. I could not give

19 you precise dates of those conflicts, nor the particular players that were

20 involved in them.

21 Q. Let me go back to your conclusion about the siege.

22 You have told us that they were superior in terms of artillery,

23 the JNA was superior. Can you tell us in relation to what?

24 A. Relative to the fire power enjoyed by the army of

25 Bosnia-Herzegovina.

1 Q. So you are telling us that you do know about the armaments and the

2 weaponry of the BH army since you did say that the other side was

3 superior?

4 A. As I indicated in the accounts of the various commanders of the

5 Bosnian army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, there are constant references to the

6 lack of weapons, lack of ammunition. These are echoed in the reports from

7 the commission of experts. Throughout 1992 and early 1993, I cannot say I

8 looked extensively at the documentation beyond this period that I have

9 examined in the report, but in this period from April 1992 through

10 the end of the summer of 1992, it seemed to have been the principal

11 preoccupation of the Bosnian army to note their constant and repeated lack

12 of heavy weapons of the type that the JNA and later BSA had in its

13 possession.

14 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

15 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. According to your conclusion and your expert report, you are

17 saying that the Serb forces occasionally shelled the city, destroyed the

18 religious and cultural heritage and deprived civilians of food,

19 electricity, water, gas and transport.

20 Can you tell us what sort of data or what statements you used and

21 referred to in order to arrive at the conclusion that the civilian

22 population was deprived of electricity, water, fuel, and transport. Let

23 me clarify this.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Ierace.

25 MR. IERACE: My friend as cross-examined the witness as to the

1 sources of information for his conclusion that the Bosnian Serb army had

2 an advantage in terms of armaments. There has been no issue about that

3 prior to this witness giving evidence. It hasn't been put to any other

4 witness who has given evidence to that effect that they are incorrect.

5 My learned colleague now asks him what he relies on in order to

6 conclude that the civilian population was deprived of electricity, fuel,

7 water and transport. A number of witnesses have given evidence of -- in

8 fact, countless witnesses have given evidence that the civilian population

9 was deprived of electricity, fuel and water and transport from time to

10 time. It hasn't been put to any of them that that was incorrect.

11 My objection is that these questions seem to lack any probative

12 value whatsoever.

13 JUDGE ORIE: May I just ask you, Mr. Ierace, to clarify your

14 objection because I did understand the question in the context of that the

15 Bosnian Serb forces used that advantage to deprive its civilians of

16 food, water, electricity and gas. I do agree with you that there has

17 been, at numerous occasions, testimony that there might for longer or

18 shorter periods of time have been no water, no electricity. But I

19 understand the question as to the conclusion as a whole in its context.

20 Am I right in understanding so then --

21 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. Thank you.

22 JUDGE ORIE: So then, perhaps, Mr. Donia, the question -- the

23 objection is denied, Mr. Ierace.

24 The question is not specifically on whether there was shortage of

25 water, electricity, gas or transportation, but what are the sources, as

1 far as I understand, for your conclusion that this was a result of the

2 advantage the Bosnian Serb forces had?

3 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. Mr. Donia, I am going to put this question to you again: Did you

5 base this conclusion on your own personal investigation?

6 A. If you are asking if I did the research and prepared the report,

7 yes.

8 Q. So you are telling us that you, yourself, gathered the

9 documentation. Can you tell us specifically what documents you used this

10 reference material in order to stress that the civilian population was

11 being deprived of food?

12 A. On page 14 of the English version of the report, I cited

13 extensively the report of Tadeusz Mazowiecki, the special rapporteur of

14 the UN Commission on Human Rights who wrote, "The seige, including the

15 shelling of population centres and cutting off of supplies of food and

16 other essential goods is another tactic. The city is shelled on a regular

17 basis in what appears to be a deliberate attempt to spread terror among

18 the population. Snipers shoot innocent victims. The mission visited the

19 hospital and was able to see many civilian victims."

20 Q. Thank you, Mr. Donia, for reading this out for us. I am

21 familiar with the report myself.

22 I have quite simply reached the conclusion right now that your

23 own personal research in relation to the conclusion is based on the

24 document drawn up by Mr. Tadeusz Mazowiecki, the quote that you've just

25 read out to us. Is that correct?

1 A. This is one of the sources that I have cited in the report, yes.

2 Q. Can you tell us, if this is one of your sources, what other

3 sources were available to you and what sources did you use in reaching

4 your conclusion that the population was deprived of food?

5 A. I think the sources are all apparent in the footnotes to the

6 report. I cited the combination of deprivation of food, water,

7 transportation and other essential goods, indicated that General Mladic

8 made a statement on the 12th of May that it was his inattention to deprive

9 the city of such things. It is consistently and repeatedly referred to in

10 the report of the commission of experts and reported by journalists who

11 visited the city at various times during the siege. I personally met many

12 people in Sarajevo in 1994 who had lost 15 to 30 pounds in the course of

13 the months after April 1992, and certainly saw numerous occasions that

14 there were limitations on certain types of food that would be available,

15 particularly fresh foods.

16 But I think the sources that you are asking about are, in fact,

17 multiple. They come from people who were there at the time and affirm

18 that these basic commodities were provided only periodically and

19 sometimes not at all in those months of the siege.

20 Q. So you are telling us that your knowledge about the deprivation of

21 the civilian population of food, you acquired during your stay in Sarajevo

22 and your conversations with people who lived in Sarajevo at the time?

23 A. No, that is not the statement that I made. The statement that I

24 made was that the sources for the deprivation of food, water,

25 transportation, heat, are multiple. They come from journalists who are

1 visiting the area. They come from United Nations observers who published

2 their conclusions on a daily basis in the report of the commission of

3 experts. They come from the stated intention of General Mladic to engage

4 in such a strategy. I view my own personal statement or observations as

5 but a very limited part of the source body which is extraordinarily

6 wealthy in terms of attesting to that fact.

7 Q. Thank you.

8 Thank you, Mr. Donia. I already said that tomorrow we would be

9 coming back to the minutes of the 12th of May, 1992 and the Defence would

10 have some questions about those minutes. Now, while we are talking about

11 the civilian population which was deprived of food, power, and water and

12 so on and so forth, you told us that you visited Sarajevo on a

13 number of occasions. Do you know how many times that you were in those

14 war years in Sarajevo, 1992, 1993, 1994, how often or how many days was

15 Sarajevo left without water supply? Do you have any knowledge about that?

16 A. Not for the -- no, I don't know the specific number. It was

17 certainly without water supply for at least half of the days that I was

18 there, in maybe 12, 14, days in 1994.

19 Q. Did you have any knowledge or did you try to find out that as a

20 result of the water shortage -- that the water shortage in Sarajevo was a

21 result of the power shortage in Sarajevo?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Will you agree with me when I say that due to combat operations in

24 the Sarajevo area during the fighting between the two armies, some

25 transformer stations were damaged and that was the reason why there were

1 power and water cuts in Sarajevo? Would that be acceptable to you, since

2 we know that there were two armies and that in the city of Sarajevo and

3 around it, there was fighting?

4 A. No.

5 Q. So, according to you, which were the sources that you rely on to

6 conclude that there was no water, electricity or gas in Sarajevo?

7 A. I think I have given you that answer about five times, ma'am. I

8 can recite again the sources, if you wish.

9 Q. My apologies, sir. No, thank you. If these are the sources that

10 you gave us when I asked you about the food shortage, thank you very much,

11 there is no need to.

12 So you still stand by those sources and you say that these sources

13 hold true also when it comes to water and electricity?

14 MR. IERACE: Mr. President --

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Ierace.

16 MR. IERACE: -- I object to the question for the same reasons I

17 gave on the previous occasion. I think the wording of this question now

18 incontrovertibly falls within the objection I made earlier.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Would you please repeat the earlier objection then?

20 MR. IERACE: Simply, Mr. President, that it isn't in dispute, as I

21 understand it, that there were those shortages and, therefore, there is no

22 probative value in probing this witness as to what his sources were.

23 Perhaps my friend could indicate if I am correct. Perhaps you can

24 indicate if it is in dispute that there were shortages of water,

25 electricity and gas during that period to the citizens of Sarajevo.

1 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic.

2 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, my questions I

3 directed at this part of Mr. Donia's conclusion because Mr. Donia has told

4 us that the result -- that the result of the water, power and food

5 shortage in the city was because of the shelling of the city. That is how

6 the counsel put the question. I merely was trying to find out from

7 Mr. Donia which other sources did he use to reach this conclusion. And we

8 heard Mr. Donia's conclusion that it was Mr. Tadeusz Mazowiecki's report,

9 of the special rapporteur. And in particular in my questions I touched

10 upon the indictment period. From Mr. Donia's report, we see that Mr.

11 Tadeusz Mazowiecki was in Sarajevo in the 24th of August, 1992. Mr. Donia

12 told us that he was in Sarajevo in 1994, as well. So --

13 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, let's just try to cut things short.

14 Could you indicate where exactly Mr. Donia told that the result of the

15 water, power and food -- water, power and food shortage was because of the

16 shelling of the city?

17 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the conclusion as I

18 interpret it, says that they used that advantage to shell the city

19 periodically, to damage and destroy its cultural and religious monuments

20 and to deprive its civilian population of food, water, electricity, gas

21 and transportation.

22 JUDGE ORIE: So it was not the testimony of Mr. Donia. And would

23 you then please first ask him whether the deprivation of civilian

24 population of food, water, electricity, gas and transportation was a

25 result of the shelling. Because that is an interpretation which is not...

1 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] The conclusion, yes.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps first ask -- you are mixing up a lot of

3 things and I would like you to be clearer. If Mr. Donia says that you

4 asked a similar session for the fifth time - why, it may have been the

5 fourth time - what was about water, gas, electricity, that was mixed up

6 several times, so, please, would you be a bit more precise in this

7 respect.

8 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I could be more

9 precise but since Mr. Donia was in Sarajevo and he studied the history of

10 the city, I thought --

11 JUDGE ORIE: I mean more precise in questioning. Please proceed.

12 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

13 Q. Mr. Donia, do you have any knowledge if the army of BH was

14 responsible for power and water cuts?

15 A. No.

16 Q. On the basis of what are you saying, no, are you answering no?

17 Is it that you do not know or is it that it is not true that the army of

18 Bosnia-Herzegovina was responsible for power and water cuts?

19 A. In response to your question, I have no knowledge if the army of

20 Bosnia-Herzegovina was responsible for power and water cuts.

21 Q. Thank you.

22 At the end of your conclusion, you say that international

23 observers increasingly feared a humanitarian catastrophe if the siege

24 continued in place through the cold Bosnian winter. Can you tell us

25 precisely which winter are you referring to?

1 A. My reference is to September 1992 here and so my statement here

2 pertains to the coming winter of 1992, 1993.

3 Q. How long did the siege of Sarajevo last, according to you?

4 A. Well, the siege of Sarajevo lasted until January of 1996.

5 Q. You talk about the humanitarian catastrophe in your conclusion.

6 Did you, being a historian, come by information, and if you did, which is

7 that and what is that information? How many people starved to death or

8 died of cold in Sarajevo during that period of time; do you know that?

9 A. Your characterization of my statement isn't quite right. I stated

10 that international observers increasingly feared humanitarian catastrophe

11 if the siege continued through the cold Bosnian winter. I don't know a

12 number for those who starved or died from starvation during the siege. My

13 impression is that it is very difficult to separate out the multiple

14 causes of some deaths during the siege because the factors were multiple.

15 There was lack of food and water, lack of adequate medical supplies and

16 then, in some cases, psychological factors that proved to be deadly. So I

17 think it is hard to reach a number for that -- to answer that question

18 precisely in any case, and I wouldn't know what that number is.

19 Q. Thank you.

20 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I believe this would

21 be a convenient time.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

23 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] I think we could adjourn for the

24 day.

25 JUDGE ORIE: It is a good suggestion. I will follow it, Ms.

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1 Pilipovic. We will adjourn until tomorrow, same courtroom, a quarter

2 past 2.00.

3 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

4 7.00, p.m., to be reconvened

5 on Friday, the 19th day of April, 2002,

6 at 2.15 p.m.

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