020523ED

Page 8793

1 minutes.

2 Mr. Usher, could you please escort the witness into the

3 courtroom.

4 [The witness entered court]

5 WITNESS: EDIN HUSOVIC [Resumed]

6 THE WITNESS: Good morning.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Mr. Husovic.

8 THE WITNESS: How are you doing, sir?

9 JUDGE ORIE: May I remind you that you are still bound by the

10 solemn declaration you gave yesterday at the beginning of your testimony.

11 THE WITNESS: Yes.

12 JUDGE ORIE: You will now be examined by counsel for the Defence.

13 Ms. Pilipovic, please proceed.

14 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

15 Cross-examined by Ms. Pilipovic:

16 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Husovic, good morning.

17 A. Good morning.

18 Q. Mr. Husovic, can you confirm that on the 3rd of March, 1995, you

19 made a statement to the security centre in Sarajevo about the incident you

20 testified about yesterday during the examination-in-chief?

21 A. Yes, I did.

22 Q. On the 23rd of February, 1996, did you make a statement to

23 investigators of the Tribunal?

24 A. Yes, I did.

25 Q. Mr. Husovic, yesterday, during your examination-in-chief, you said

Page 8794

1 that you had been shot at from the direction of Hrasno Brdo?

2 A. Yes, that is correct.

3 Q. If I put it to you that in the statement you made to the Public

4 Security centre in Novo Sarajevo on the 3rd of March, 1995, which is

5 Prosecution Exhibit -- you stated in line 4, "Shot from the direction of

6 the Grbavica settlement." You were speaking of the event of the 10th of

7 January, 1994, and you said that you had been shot at from the direction

8 of the neighbourhood of Grbavica.

9 Would you tell us, please, which statement is correct?

10 A. The correct statement would be that I was shot at from the

11 location of Hrasno hill.

12 Q. Can you tell us why you stated on the 3rd of March, 1995, that you

13 had been shot at from the direction of Grbavica?

14 A. Well, when I was talking to Mr. Barry Hogan and when I look at the

15 map, then I realised that there is no way the bullet could come from that

16 area, that it would be from Hrasno hill.

17 Q. You are not sure even now from which direction you were shot at on

18 the 10th of January, 1994?

19 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, if I may be permitted to

20 interrupt. The document Defence counsel is referring to is not this

21 witness's statement. It is a police report. I presume you are referring

22 to Exhibit number 2114?

23 JUDGE ORIE: Let me just have a look because Ms. Pilipovic has

24 mentioned the number of the exhibit -- the number of the document and it

25 is not in my recollection.

Page 8795

1 JUDGE ORIE: Could you give us, please, Ms. Pilipovic, because

2 you started saying, "which is Prosecution Exhibit" and then the transcript

3 remains silent on the number.

4 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I have before me an

5 official note, a report of the centre, and it is numbered 2114. I think

6 that yesterday the statement made by Mr. Husovic was tendered into

7 evidence. If not, the Defence has a sufficient number of copies in the

8 native language.

9 JUDGE ORIE: That is no problem as such, but you referred, without

10 giving the number, to a statement of the witness and the Prosecution

11 objects against this qualification of the document because the Prosecution

12 says it is not a statement of the witness, but it is a report, which --

13 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence has

14 Prosecution document ERN number 00306755. We have a sufficient number of

15 copies.

16 JUDGE ORIE: And that is a statement of this witness, yes?

17 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, it is a statement. Yes,

18 Your Honour.

19 JUDGE ORIE: As you know, if it is just a small part, you can read

20 it. If it is a small document and the document as a whole is relevant,

21 you, of course, can show it to the witness and to the Bench and to the

22 Prosecution.

23 Ms. Mahindaratne, I do understand now that the Defence is going

24 to -- is going to present to the witness document not being 2114 but

25 another document.

Page 8796

1 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Very well, Mr. President.

2 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, would the usher

3 please, if necessary, show the document to the witness so that he can

4 identify it and tell us whether it is his statement or not. And I will

5 just read.

6 Q. Mr. Husovic, is this the statement that you made in the Public

7 Security Centre on the 3rd of March, 1995?

8 A. Yes, I did. But I do realise after I spoke with

9 Mr. Barry Hogan--

10 JUDGE ORIE: I see that you want to add something but perhaps the

11 first question was whether you recognise this document as the statement

12 you gave to the -- to the security --

13 THE WITNESS: Yes, this is my statement.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

15 Please proceed, Ms. Pilipovic.

16 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. Mr. Husovic, in line 4 of your statement does it say: "Shot from

18 the direction of the Grbavica neighbourhood"? Did you say that and is

19 that what the document says? Is it the way you said it?

20 A. Yes, I did. But I think when I spoke with this gentleman,

21 Mr. Barry Hogan, I realised that bullet could not come from that place

22 because it was too far from that location. And even though if -- if you

23 are referring to this also, this was controlled by Serb forces, by army of

24 Republika Srpska.

25 Q. When you say, "this was controlled by the army of Republika

Page 8797

1 Srpska," what part of town are you referring to?

2 A. It is like east, south-east side.

3 Q. Would you tell us the name of that area?

4 A. Grbavica.

5 Q. Mr. Husovic, when talking to the OTP investigator, you were not

6 sure from which direction you had been shot at?

7 A. Well, at that time, no.

8 Q. So that even today you do not know the direction from which the

9 shot came?

10 A. Yes, I know, and I was shot from Hrasno hill.

11 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

12 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. Mr. Husovic, yesterday, during the examination-in-chief in chief,

14 in response to my learned friend's question, you said that on the occasion

15 of the incident that happened on the 12th of January -- on the 10th of

16 January, an official report had been drawn up; is that correct?

17 A. Yes, that is correct.

18 Q. When the official report was drawn up, were you interviewed about

19 the incident?

20 A. Yes, I was.

21 Q. You confirm then that you talked to the person who drew up the

22 official report, Samir Selimovic?

23 A. Yes, I did.

24 Q. Can you tell us where the interview with Mr. Selimovic took

25 place?

Page 8798

1 A. I think it was in the hospital because it has been like six years.

2 I am not really sure.

3 Q. Mr. Husovic, if I put it to you or, rather, if I show you the

4 official report, P2114, in which it says: "Before the Paradiso

5 building," this is the first line of the second part, "in front of the

6 Paradiso establishment where Edin Husovic was wounded, most probably by a

7 stray bullet from the direction of the aggressor positions in Grbavica,"

8 would that be correct? Did you say that?

9 A. That would be direct.

10 Q. So you confirm then that on the 12th of January, 1994, after the

11 incident took place, a stray bullet was mentioned coming from the

12 direction of Grbavica?

13 MS. MAHINDARATNE: If I may be permitted to interrupt,

14 Mr. President.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Ms. Mahindaratne.

16 MS. MAHINDARATNE: It is unfair to place these questions without

17 showing him the statement he has made to the investigator who prepared the

18 report. The investigator's report uses the words "stray bullet" but

19 nowhere in the statement does it talk about a stray bullet. The questions

20 are based on the report.

21 JUDGE ORIE: On the report.

22 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Official report.

23 JUDGE ORIE: We usually confront the witness with the literal

24 wording of a certain text. If not, the whole text is relevant, and

25 therefore, Ms. Pilipovic, would you please read out specifically and

Page 8799

1 indicate clearly whether it is a report or not. It is not clearly in my

2 mind at this moment. Yes, you said it was from the official report, that

3 is 2114, and Ms. Pilipovic has confronted the witness with the text in

4 this report. So it must be clear to the witness that the part read was

5 part of a report and not of his own statement.

6 On the other hand, it might be a bit confusing, Ms. Pilipovic,

7 that you then asked the witness: "Did you say that?" That might create

8 confusion on whether it is a statement or a report. But if you would have

9 asked the witness whether he gave such information to those who drafted

10 the report, then of course it would be perfectly clear.

11 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Thank you, Mr. President.

12 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I asked the witness

13 whether he had been interviewed by the person who made up the report on

14 the 12th of January, 1994, and the witness said he did.

15 Q. Mr. Husovic, while being interviewed by Mr. Samir Semilovic, who

16 drew up the report, did you tell the investigator about the event that

17 took place, and was this on the 12th of January, 1994?

18 A. It was on 10th of January, 1994, and I never did say that it was a

19 stray bullet. I was referring to sniper shot.

20 Q. Did you on that occasion tell Mr. Selimovic that the stray bullet

21 was fired from the direction of Grbavica?

22 A. I did not say that it was a stray bullet.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, in you question, you more or less

24 ignored what the witness said. So if you would have asked whether he told

25 Mr. Selimovic that the bullet was fired from the direction of Grbavica,

Page 8800

1 that would be fair.

2 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] From the direction of Grbavica.

3 Thank you.

4 Q. Did you tell Mr. Selimovic that the bullet was fired from the

5 direction of Grbavica?

6 A. Yes, I did.

7 Q. Thank you. When you talked to the investigator of the

8 Prosecutor's office about the incident, about what happened to you, did

9 you say that the shot was fired from Hrasno Brdo, and in 1994, that is on

10 the 10th of January, did you know what army was holding the positions on

11 Hrasno Brdo?

12 A. Yes, I know, and it was army of Republika Srpska.

13 Q. If I put it to you that the front lines on Hrasno Brdo were 50

14 metres apart and that they were separated by streets and that Hrasno Brdo

15 was divided up, would you agree with me that that was correct?

16 A. I am not really sure.

17 Q. Mr. Husovic, you said yesterday that you were standing in front of

18 the Paradiso restaurant with your friends and that this was in Cengic

19 Vila; is this correct?

20 A. Yes, correct.

21 Q. You said that your friends were wearing civilian uniforms?

22 A. Yes, I did.

23 Q. Did you know that Mr. Mirsad Abdurahmanovic and Mr. Kahriman were

24 members of the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

25 A. No, I did not.

Page 8801

1 Q. On the clothes they were wearing which you say was civilian, were

2 they wearing any insignia indicating that they were members of the army of

3 Bosnia-Herzegovina?

4 A. No, they were not.

5 Q. If I put it to you that your friend Mirsad Abdurahmanovic was a

6 member of the army from 1992 and that he belonged to the 102nd Motorised

7 Brigade, would you agree with me that that was correct?

8 A. I am not really sure.

9 Q. If I put it to you that he told the Prosecution investigator,

10 Mr. Barry Hogan, on the 24th of September, 2001, that he had joined the

11 army in 1992 and that he was a member of the 102nd Motorised Brigade, and

12 that the headquarters of that brigade was in the Zica company, would you

13 agree with me that that was correct?

14 A. I am not really sure if he joined the army or not, but while he

15 was standing with us, he was in civilian clothes and he was not a soldier.

16 I am sure.

17 Q. You are telling us that Mr. Mirsad Abdurahmanovic's statement and

18 his interview, what he said to the investigator, that he was a member of

19 the 102nd Motorised Brigade, is not correct?

20 A. I don't know whatever he said or not, but I am not really sure

21 whether he was in the army or not.

22 Q. When as you say you were wounded on the 10th of January, you said

23 that Mr. Abdurahmanovic took you to hospital. Is that correct or

24 am I wrong? Tell us who took you to hospital.

25 A. Sead Kahriman, he took me to the hospital.

Page 8802

1 Q. Can you tell us what vehicle he used to take you to hospital?

2 A. It was a Golf, Volkswagen Golf. It was red colour.

3 Q. In the period 1992, 1993, 1994, did you know that Golf cars were

4 used to carry mortars around the part of Sarajevo that was under the

5 control of the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

6 A. That is incorrect.

7 Q. Mr. Husovic, you told us that in 1994 you were 17 and that you

8 went to school. Can you tell us what school you attended? What was the

9 name of your school?

10 A. It was Saobracajna, just like -- I really cannot translate this.

11 THE INTERPRETER: Transport school or traffic school.

12 THE WITNESS: Traffic school.

13 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. Do you know that in the part of town where you lived, schools and

15 kindergartens were used to accommodate soldiers of the 102nd Motorised

16 Brigade?

17 A. I am not really sure.

18 Q. In the part of town you lived in, you say this was the Cengic Vila

19 neighbourhood. Was there a kindergarten called the 8th of March, Osmi

20 Mart at the time?

21 A. I am not really sure.

22 Q. In the Otoka neighbourhood, was there also a kindergarten?

23 A. I believe it was. I am not really sure.

24 Q. If I put it to you that in the 8th of March kindergarten in

25 Cengic Vila and in the kindergarten in Otoka, the 102nd Motorised Brigade

Page 8803

1 in 1993 and 1994 accommodated soldiers, would you agree with me that that

2 was correct?

3 A. I am not really sure. So.

4 JUDGE ORIE: May I ask you something, Mr. Husovic?

5 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.

6 JUDGE ORIE: You repeatedly gave us an answer, "I am not really

7 sure." That suggests that you have some information you might not be sure

8 about --

9 THE WITNESS: Like I said, I was student at the time so maybe if

10 there was such an army in those kindergartens, I wouldn't have access and

11 I wouldn't -- I couldn't give a correct information.

12 JUDGE ORIE: I do understand that, but let's just, by way of

13 example --

14 THE WITNESS: Sure.

15 JUDGE ORIE: If you never had access to a school where you

16 nevertheless had some information that there might have been military

17 accommodation, for example, you saw military people going there on a

18 regular basis. I have some difficulty in understanding what you mean

19 by, "I am not really sure." That means that you are not saying you don't

20 really know about it. You are not saying that you never heard about it.

21 You say, "I am not really sure." That is several times you did it. So

22 you might have had some clue. If you have any clue, even if you are not

23 sure, tell us about the clue you had.

24 Please proceed, Ms. Pilipovic.

25 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

Page 8804

1 Q. Mr. Husovic, in 1994, you were 17. Did your peers or, rather,

2 were other young men your age members of the army? Did you have any

3 friends who joined the army who were the same age as you?

4 A. Maybe they did and I really don't know about it. None of my

5 friends did, so...

6 JUDGE ORIE: May I just interfere again. You told us before that

7 you did not know whether Mr. Abdurahmanovic joined the army or not.

8 THE WITNESS: Yes.

9 JUDGE ORIE: At this moment you say: "I don't know. Maybe they

10 did." You don't know about whether they joined the army. I don't know

11 whether Mr. Abdurahmanovic is approximately your age.

12 THE WITNESS: He is older than me.

13 JUDGE ORIE: So you are concentrating your answer on the age, but

14 would he be 18, 19, 20 or 25?

15 THE WITNESS: Mirsad, I knew him but not that well, so he was not

16 like really close friend with me.

17 JUDGE ORIE: But are you sure that he did not join the army?

18 THE WITNESS: I know I would see him around the neighbourhood and

19 he was always in civilian clothes. I didn't know if he was in the army or

20 not.

21 JUDGE ORIE: But your testimony was that none of your friends did

22 join the army. Now you say, "I am not sure." Well, to repeat my earlier

23 words, "I have no clue to assume that he joined the army." Is that what

24 you tell us?

25 THE WITNESS: Yes.

Page 8805

1 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, please proceed.

2 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

3 Q. Mr. Husovic, near your neighbourhood, the neighbourhood where you

4 lived, was there a company called Vranica?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. If I put it to you that a witness who testified before this court,

7 Mr. Mirsad Sabljica, said that the headquarters of the 102nd Motorised

8 Brigade was in the Vranica company, would you agree with me that that was

9 correct?

10 A. I can't agree because I don't know. I am not really sure. Sorry

11 about that.

12 Q. In 1992, 1993, and 1994, did you see soldiers of the army of

13 Bosnia-Herzegovina?

14 A. Yes, I did.

15 Q. Can you tell us what they were wearing, I mean the members of the

16 army of Bosnia-Herzegovina? I am referring specifically to the year 1994.

17 A. They were wearing camouflage uniforms.

18 Q. Can you tell us where you used to see soldiers in camouflage

19 uniforms?

20 A. They were in the city, so I would see them.

21 Q. Were there any soldiers in the part of town called Cengic Vila and

22 Dolac Malta?

23 A. There were soldiers in those two neighbourhoods.

24 Q. Do you know whether these soldiers gathered in a certain place in

25 these two neighbourhoods?

Page 8806

1 A. I don't know really, so...

2 Q. When you would see them in uniform, does that mean they were

3 walking around in the part of town where you saw them?

4 A. Yes, they were walking around.

5 Q. Did you see soldiers in the Paradiso Cafe in uniform, in army of

6 Bosnia-Herzegovina uniform? I don't mean on that day because you said you

7 didn't on that day, but did they frequent the cafe?

8 A. No, they did not. There were no soldiers in that cafe, ever. It

9 was only civilians.

10 Q. How often did you see your friend Mirsad Abdurahmanovic?

11 A. I can't really say. Maybe every 10 days. Every two days, a few

12 days. Every few days.

13 Q. In 1992, 1993, 1994, did you see him at 2 to 10 day intervals and

14 was he in uniform when you saw him?

15 A. Like I said, I don't know he was a soldier and I never saw him in

16 uniform before. He was always wearing civilian clothes and so.

17 Q. You told us that you went to school. In 1992, 1993, 1994, were

18 you going to school then?

19 A. Yes, I was.

20 Q. In the vicinity of the part of town are you lived, was there a

21 building belonging to the Energoinvest company and a company called Zica?

22 A. Yes, but that was further west. It was like maybe three

23 kilometres away, maybe, two, two and-a-half.

24 Q. If I put it to you that your friend Mirsad Abdurahmanovic stated

25 that the headquarters of the military unit he belonged to was in the Zica

Page 8807

1 company, would you agree with me that there were soldiers in that company?

2 A. It was -- I am not really -- military headquarters or not. I

3 really didn't have access there so I really cannot tell.

4 Q. You told us that the front lines in relation to the place where

5 the Paradiso Cafe is located were about two kilometres away; is that

6 correct?

7 A. Yes, that is correct.

8 Q. If I put it to you that the Hrasno neighbourhood had -- contains a

9 square called Trg Heroja, or Heroes Square, would you agree with me that

10 that was correct?

11 A. That is correct.

12 Q. If I put it to you that on that square there were military

13 installations of the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, would you agree with me?

14 A. We -- there was some military headquarters there or some military

15 installations, I am not really sure, because I really did not go there.

16 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence has no

17 further questions.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Ms. Pilipovic.

19 Ms. Mahindaratne, do you have any need to re-examine the witness?

20 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Yes, Mr. President, a few questions.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed.

22 Re-examined by Ms. Mahindaratne:

23 Q. Mr. Husovic, you were cross-examined based on an official report

24 that had been prepared in regard to the shooting incident you testified

25 about?

Page 8808

1 A. Yes.

2 MS. MAHINDARATNE: May the witness be shown Exhibit number 2114,

3 please.

4 Q. In that report there is a reference to stray bullets. Did you

5 ever say to any person after you were shot that -- did you ever use the

6 term "stray bullets"?

7 A. I never did use the term "stray bullet."

8 Q. Now, this official report has been prepared on the 12th of

9 January, 1994. You were shot on 10th of January, 1994?

10 A. Correct.

11 Q. Therefore, the statement, this report, has been based on a

12 statement you had made within two days after you were shot?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Do you remember when you made that statement?

15 A. Maybe on 11th, maybe.

16 Q. Were you in hospital during this period?

17 A. Yes, I was.

18 Q. Were you subject to surgery?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. In your statement, did you ever mention that the shots would have

21 come from the direction of Grbavica?

22 A. Yes, I did at that time because I didn't look at the maps, and

23 just it was a sniper so you really couldn't tell where the bullet came

24 from.

25 Q. At the time you made that statement, had you visited -- had you

Page 8809

1 had the opportunity to visit the location at which you were shot?

2 A. No. I was in hospital.

3 Q. Can you please tell the Bench as to where Grbavica is located as

4 opposed to Hrasno Brdo from the point of -- point where you were standing

5 at the time you were shot? Was it beyond Hrasno Brdo or before Hrasno

6 Brdo, towards you?

7 A. It was located maybe east from Hrasno Brdo.

8 Q. Would you be able to demonstrate it better by looking at Exhibit

9 number P3236 and tell the Bench where exactly where Grbavica was located

10 from Hrasno Brdo?

11 MS. MAHINDARATNE: May the witness be shown Exhibit P3644,

12 Mr. President? He will be able to demonstrate better.

13 JUDGE ORIE: P -- ?

14 MS. MAHINDARATNE: P3644. Exhibit number P3644.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, could you -- yes, but is that 3644,

16 that is the big map?

17 MS. MAHINDARATNE: That is so, Mr. President.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Do you have clean copies of 3644 because -- well, of

19 course, if it is just -- if we could make it clear for the transcript, it

20 could be shown to him, that's the blank map. If you don't ask for

21 any markings, we could use it. If you want the witness to mark anything,

22 then of course we would need a new copy of 3644, but if you say "I just

23 want to show it to him to make it easier for him to indicate" --

24 MS. MAHINDARATNE: That is all we want to do, Mr. President.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Mr. Usher, not to lose too much time, I think

Page 8810

1 if you would put on the ELMO the part of the map which is approximately in

2 the middle, under WHS-84, as it appears on the top.

3 MS. MAHINDARATNE:

4 Q. Mr. Husovic, don't mark anything, just show exactly where

5 Grbavica was as opposed to Hrasno Brdo from where you were standing.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps the ELMO can zoom in. Even more to be zoomed

7 in.

8 MS. MAHINDARATNE:

9 Q. So was Grbavica -- looking at this map, could you tell whether

10 Grbavica was beyond Hrasno Brdo from where you were standing?

11 A. I was standing right here.

12 Q. And where is Hrasno Brdo from there?

13 A. It is right here.

14 Q. And Grbavica?

15 A. [Indicates]

16 Q. So then it we be correct to say that Grbavica was beyond Hrasno

17 Brdo?

18 A. Yes.

19 JUDGE ORIE: For the sake of the transcript, when the witness is

20 pointing at Grbavica, it is where the map contains the text "Grbavica."

21 When he was pointing at where he was standing when he was shot, it is in

22 the area indicated on P Exhibit 3236, which is a part, a large part, of

23 this map. And when he was indicating Hrasno Brdo, he was pointing at an

24 area south of where he stood, on the map, where it seems to be without any

25 buildings, approximately five centimetres south on the big map.

Page 8811

1 Please proceed, Ms. Mahindaratne.

2 MS. MAHINDARATNE:

3 Q. Mr. Husovic, did you personally see any military activity being

4 carried out at schools or any such institutions? Did you personally see

5 for yourself?

6 A. No, I did not.

7 Q. When you said that your friends, including Mr. Abdurahmanovic,

8 which had not joined the military, you were testifying based on your

9 personal knowledge?

10 A. Based on my personal knowledge, yes, that is correct.

11 Q. How closely did you associate with them?

12 A. They were older than me. I was like 17. They were about between

13 25 and 30.

14 Q. So did you associate with them very closely, to know about all

15 their personal details?

16 A. I did not know their personal details.

17 Q. You based your response that they had not joined the military on

18 the basis that you always saw them in civilian clothing?

19 A. Yes, you are correct.

20 MS. MAHINDARATNE: I have no more questions, Mr. President.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Ms. Mahindaratne.

22 [Trial Chamber confers]

23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Husovic.

24 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.

25 JUDGE ORIE: I have one question for you - perhaps even a few

Page 8815

1 exhibits, not only because I have never -- I haven't yet found out the

2 material records report, I am still waiting for that. But what is

3 troubling me here, Mr. President, is that if we keep the piece ERN 284149,

4 we can see that the date of the examination appears on this record is 16th

5 of January, 1994, which is quite obvious on the record, on the document,

6 and we can see that this is a "6," not a "10" - in any case on my copy -

7 Mr. President, and it is perfectly obvious.

8 However, the translation of this document gives us a date which,

9 as it happens, comes within the time of the incident, although the copy in

10 Serbian, what I can see on my document, which is a date six days after the

11 fact that we are talking about. Now, this document would give the date

12 for the examination on the 16th and, again, we find ourselves confronted

13 to the problem of the date. It seems again that this is Pandora's box

14 again and this is not the box of the Defence but of the Prosecution, and

15 we have this situation coming up on many occasions.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Mahindaratne,

17 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Well at, this stage, Mr. President, I would not

18 be able to explain how this discrepancy has transpired. I may have to go

19 back to the translation branch and find out exactly how this happened. It

20 may be that there had been another document of the same -- discharge

21 report, letter of discharge, with this particular date. So if I may be

22 permitted time, I could respond to this issue.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Would it be necessary to go to the translation

24 department because on ERN ending 4189, Mr. Piletta-Zanin identified a

25 clear "6." If I look at the next page, which seems to be a perhaps carbon

Page 8816

1 copy, or I am not quite sure, but it would need some further examination.

2 The --

3 MS. MAHINDARATNE: It is quite possible, Mr. President, that on

4 the next page, that is the 10th there and not --

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, so that is -- whether the "6" is a "6" and

6 whether there is a translation mistake, perhaps we would need further

7 attention before we would have to address the translation unit. But would

8 there be any possibility to come up with a -- I don't know what the source

9 of this document is. I also noted that there were no questions about the

10 document in cross-examination. Would it be possible to get closer to the

11 source of this document so that we could solve this problem?

12 MS. MAHINDARATNE: I think so, Mr. President. Sometimes what

13 happens is when a document is not very clear, one could focus on

14 particular areas and it is possible that the translator based his or her

15 translation on that. So, may I be given a little bit of time to clarify

16 this and get back to --

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, and may I take it that the witness will not be

18 on the plane already if further issues arise out of this? I mean, it

19 perhaps would not have -- would not need much time, but I see that there

20 is some unclarity about whether it is a "6" or whether it is a "0."

21 Perhaps during the break we might take a bit more time to have a closer

22 look to it and if you could perhaps look at the files, whether this is a

23 good copy or a contaminated copy or -- well, at least to inform us a bit

24 more about what is not for certain a "6," but might be a "6," which would

25 then not be in line with the clear "0" but without the preceding "1" on

Page 8817

1 the ERN number 00284190. In general, Ms. Mahindaratne, we have had

2 several, several, of this kind of problems, and I know that you are new at

3 least in the courtroom at this very moment, but may I again stress that

4 the Chamber would highly appreciate if documents are very carefully

5 inspected before they are tendered.

6 Let me just confer.

7 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Very well, Mr. President.

8 [Trial Chamber confers]

9 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber decided that before giving a decision on

10 the admission of P2097, we will first wait for further information from

11 the Prosecution.

12 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Ms. Pilipovic.

14 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, with your leave, the

15 Defence believes that in order to test the credibility of the witness, it

16 would be in the interest of the Defence, would be to tender the statement

17 of Mr. Husovic that he identified as his own that he gave, and the Defence

18 has sufficient number of copies. I believe that my colleagues have a

19 copy.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Ms. Pilipovic, but we have indicated before that

21 if one of the parties was intending to tender a document, that it had then

22 to be distributed because the Chamber is not now in a position to ask any

23 question in relation to that document because they haven't seen it. So

24 this is not -- I mean, there might have been no objection whatsoever

25 against admitting into evidence, but the Chamber is not now in a position

Page 8818

1 to look at the document to see whether there were any additional questions

2 necessary and you just wrote -- you just read the part that you found

3 relevant. This is not the way to do it. I don't know whether you insist

4 on tendering it.

5 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence insists

6 that this exhibit should be tendered. I wanted to tender them. I had

7 prepared them. That was my omission. When the witness identified his

8 statement, I was only cross-examining him, and I know that you were not in

9 a position to have the statement before you. But the point is that he

10 claims that he was fired at from the direction of Grbavica and I believe

11 that the Chamber did hear the witness on this issue.

12 So I think that it would be very useful to have that within

13 the -- within this report that the witness identified, his statement

14 should also be included because he identified it as having been taken from

15 him.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, the witness has clearly testified that he gave

17 his statement to the effect that the shots came from Grbavica, and that it

18 was on the basis of his information that the report also states that it is

19 Grbavica.

20 So I don't know what the document adds to that. I mean, there is

21 no -- as far as I can see at this very moment, the testimony is clear that

22 it is his statement. So I don't know what the statement would add apart

23 from that clear issue. On the other hand, let me just first hear whether

24 Ms. Mahindaratne would have any -- would have any objections.

25 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, I would object. If at all, the

Page 8819

1 statement should have been put to the witness while he was here, and now

2 that the witness has gone --

3 JUDGE ORIE: The relevant part has been read out to him.

4 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Just one -- a few words, Mr. President, and in

5 fact given the statement came forward when I pointed out that -- in fact,

6 the Defence counsel was pointing out a part of the official report. I

7 have to point out that the statement was completely separate from the

8 official report.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but then the statement was shown to him. He was

10 asked whether this was the statement he gave, and the relevant portion

11 was read out to him.

12 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, my submission would be there is

13 so much more in the statement, and if the document is to be admitted, it

14 should be have been done through the witness. In any event, the relevant

15 portion, it has gone down in evidence. It is already there. The witness

16 admitted that he said that the shots came from Grbavica.

17 JUDGE ORIE: May I just ask --

18 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I apologise. The

19 Defence will not insist on having this document tendered considering what

20 the witness testified to.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Ms. Pilipovic.

22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well, Mr. President.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Piletta-Zanin. That means that we do

24 not give a decision yet on P2097 and P2097.1. And are there any

25 objections against the other documents?

Page 8820

1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No. I will make my remarks

2 later.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That means that 2114.1, that's P3236, are

4 admitted into evidence. And I think that is all for the -- or did I

5 forget one? All other documents are admitted into evidence as far as

6 they are tendered.

7 Would the Prosecution be ready to call its next witness or would

8 you like to use the remaining time until the break for other reasons?

9 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, if it is convenient, I could respond

10 to the two issues that were raised earlier this morning in the remaining

11 ten minutes.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, if you could do that briefly. Please proceed.

13 Or is there anything specific?

14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President, in

15 relation to the exhibits, please This has been now days - weeks, in fact

16 - that the Prosecution has been telling us and it is now becoming a very

17 long saga that the Prosecution is telling us, "You will find out soon.

18 You will find out about the truth about the dates regarding the 'grattage'

19 on the medical reports." And we have been asking for this information

20 because we need them in order to be able to interrogate -- I believe there

21 is a microphone that is on, on the Prosecution bench.

22 We need those documents and the information in order to be able to

23 examine the witnesses on these issues. Now, the time that we lose in this

24 way, we will not be able to gain it back. And every time we ask for

25 something, we are being told, "It was not me who asked," then they pass

Page 8821

1 the ball on to somebody else, and I don't think this is correct. It is

2 time now to give us the delay, the time, notice, a deadline, when are we

3 going to be given this information regarding these records or they should

4 not be admitted.

5 Mr. President, we have shown a great deal of patience here and it

6 is time that the Prosecution tells us clearly what is on and is this some

7 kind of game, which is what the Defence believes that it is.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for your observation, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

9 I just noticed for this very moment that the type of document we

10 just dealt with is not a similar one as the documents concerning the

11 'grattage'.

12 Mr. Ierace, please proceed.

13 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, firstly in relation to the issue that

14 Mr. Piletta-Zanin has just raised, I informed you that enquiries were

15 being made in Sarajevo in relation to that matter by an investigator, and

16 as soon as we have the fruits of those enquiries, we will immediately

17 inform the Trial Chamber.

18 In relation to 92 -- the 92 bis issue, all this time we have been

19 waiting for the translations to be done by the Translation Unit of the

20 annexures. The latest information that we have is that will be completed

21 by early next week. I will also review, in the same way as I have

22 reviewed the viva voce witness list, the 92 bis witness list to see if

23 some further deletions can be made from that list.

24 Mr. President, in relation to the viva voce list, I have some

25 comments to make. When I handed up that list on the 8th of May, I

Page 8822

1 anticipated that we may be seeking leave to add an additional fresh

2 witness, and that was beyond Barry Hogan, who was named on that list.

3 It will now be apparent, of course, that that additional witness

4 is the witness who is identified as Witness AD and whose inclusion is

5 presently under consideration by you. On the 10th of May, I advised the

6 Defence in a letter that was copied to the Trial Chamber that

7 Zdenko Eterovic's name had been inadvertently been left off the list and,

8 indeed, he is to be called today.

9 Mr. President, there are two further witnesses who I wish to place

10 back into our list. In other words, these are not fresh witnesses,

11 rather, witnesses whose names have always been on the witness list but

12 were not on that handed up by me on the 8th of May. [redacted]

13 [redacted]. There are five

14 witnesses who I will take off the list. They are Ismet Ceric, Viktor

15 Andreev, Piers Tucker, Anthony Banbery and Witness V. I will provide a

16 formal letter to the Defence and to the Trial Chamber setting out all of

17 these details.

18 Mr. President, that means that overall, the witness list is

19 reduced from that which I handed up on the 8th of May. In relation to

20 Barry Hogan, the nature of his evidence will primarily be as to what

21 efforts have been made by the Prosecution to locate certain documents

22 which one might otherwise have reasonably expected to be in the United

23 Nations' archives, such as investigations carried out by UNPROFOR and

24 various other documents. I think it appropriate that the Trial Chamber

25 have evidence as to what steps have been taken.

Page 8823

1 There will be some other matters that one might perhaps call

2 housekeeping that will be dealt with in his statement in relation

3 to various scheduled incidents, measurements, that sort of thing, most, if

4 not all, of which the Defence already has in the form of incident reports

5 in respect of each incident. It seems to me, Mr. President, that his

6 evidence would comfortably come within 92 bis and I will make the formal

7 application to add his name together with a 92 bis statement. I

8 anticipate that will be next week. I don't anticipate there would be any

9 great controversy about his evidence.

10 Mr. President, in relation to Zoran Lecic, his name has always

11 been on the witness list. You might recall that he has already given

12 some evidence and I made clear at that stage that he would be recalled.

13 There have been a number of photographs tendered, especially in relation

14 to scheduled sniping incidents, which appear to be photographs taken from

15 the area approximately of the suspected source of fire. He will give

16 formal evidence about the date and position on which those photographs

17 were taken. I anticipate he will say that he took those various

18 photographs. He will also give some evidence about the date that the

19 various video clips used in the opening montage came into the possession

20 of the OTP and, indeed, his possession and therefore that would be

21 relevant in terms of the date on which those various video clips were

22 taken.

23 He will also give some evidence as to the opening photographs, the

24 photographs used in the opening. Again, I don't think it will be

25 controversial evidence, but it may be just as well to call him in person

Page 8824

1 rather than have very large photographs tendered -- attached to his

2 statement.

3 Mr. President, that is the present situation in relation to the

4 witness list.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. May I ask you one question, was Mr. Ambrosi

6 on the witness list before us?

7 MR. IERACE: I dropped him. Yes, that is right, that is another

8 deletion. I am sorry, I stand --

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but on the 21st of May, 2002, I see that his

10 name is on the list for the 27th of May until the 31st of May and until

11 the 3rd of June. So it is a bit confusing what you are telling us now.

12 MR. IERACE: His name has now been dropped.

13 JUDGE ORIE: His name has now been dropped. Thank you for your

14 information.

15 Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, with regard for

17 the people here and around the courtroom, it will be better perhaps to

18 respond to what the Prosecution had to say after the break, but I am in

19 your hands. I will respect your decision.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps the Chamber will take the opportunity to see

21 to what extent a response is needed to what the Prosecution has just said

22 and that you will be given an opportunity and to what extent you will be

23 given an opportunity to that, after the break.

24 We will adjourn until 11.00.

25 --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m

Page 8825

1 --- On resuming at 11.01 a.m.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace.

3 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, before my learned colleague responds,

4 might I raise one other issue.

5 JUDGE ORIE: So that he will be able to respond to that as well,

6 yes.

7 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, on the 17th of May, the Prosecution

8 filed a report by Richard Philips. It was filed pursuant to Rule 94 bis.

9 The report has attached to it a number of charts. Essentially, the report

10 depicts the structure of the Sarajevo Romanija Corps during the indictment

11 period. That includes the identification of key personnel and also charts

12 changes to the structure through the indictment period. Mr. President,

13 attached to the statement and the charts, there is a document

14 titled "References from chart Sarajevo Romanija Corps." That document

15 which lists the references is 63 pages in length. There are an additional

16 10 or 20 pages still to come of references.

17 In that filed document, there are, from time to time, these words

18 which appear: "Please see letter dated 17 May, 2002, signed by Mark

19 Ierace STA." That letter essentially informed the Defence and the

20 Registry that there were further references to come. I anticipate those

21 references will be provide in the

22 next few days.

23 I raise the report for this reason: That, if the Prosecution was

24 to provide copies of the relevant passages in those documents, then those

25 copies would number several binders, several of the thick arched lever

Page 8826

1 binders. It would be an enormous task to provide that material in

2 hard-copy form. All of the material has been disclosed to the Defence, in

3 other words, the Defence has the material in its possession. Indeed, much

4 of the material has come from the Defence pursuant to its obligations

5 under reciprocal disclosure. That material, typically, is archival

6 material by its nature from the Sarajevo Romanija Corps.

7 Mr. President, essentially, I have a question. The question is

8 whether the Trial Chamber requires that hard copies of the relevant

9 excerpts be provided, in other words, be tendered as part of the report.

10 It seems to me that the first question in responding to that really is one

11 for the Defence, that is, whether they dispute any of his evidence as to

12 the structure and other aspects, some aspects of the structure, such as

13 the identification of personnel.

14 But perhaps I could leave that with the Trial Chamber and in due

15 course if you could let us know, we would then -- if it is -- the

16 response is that the material is required, then we could undertake that

17 considerable project of preparing it. Thank you.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Ierace.

19 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, if you would like to respond to the

20 observations of Mr. Ierace, you will have an opportunity to do so until a

21 quarter past 11.00.

22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, thank you very

23 much indeed, and I believe we will first answer on the matter of the

24 testimonies. And as you can see, we did not have time to confer. We will

25 respond at a later date on the other matter.

Page 8827

1 Now, as far as the testimonies are concerned, Mr. President, we

2 believe that we find ourselves in a very surrealist situation. For the

3 first time in the history of his Trial Chamber, you have been given a

4 witness statement who has self-examined and the statement went to prove

5 what the Prosecution wants but he was never put on the witness list, on

6 the Prosecution witness list. The least of the things would have been to

7 say that this person, this investigator - I am not talking about Barry

8 Hogan, I am talking about another person - at least could have been put on

9 the witness case, which was not the case. This is the first observation

10 I have.

11 The second remark is that to quote in the witness's name any other

12 person that comes from the team of the Prosecutor is not admissible.

13 People who were investigators, that is, representatives of the

14 Prosecution, are coming to witness for the Prosecution and this is absurd

15 legally. I cannot understand how this can be asked for.

16 Certainly, there was an exception to hear Mr. Lesic. But Mr.

17 Lesic is not an investigator - I believe that is his name - he is a

18 technician. And he was there to answer simple technical questions, that

19 is the way the circular photographs were made, but nothing else. But I

20 don't think it is admissible that other people should come to speak for

21 this technician. That would not be admissible.

22 Another point if we are constantly -- now, the Defence is trying

23 very hard to shorten the time that is given to the Prosecution -- that is,

24 the Defence is trying to go as fast as we can, but constantly the

25 Prosecution is adding new witnesses Mr. President, and this is not normal.

Page 8828

1 Moreover, we are told that we will get a letter explaining all this so

2 that we will be able to prepare, a letter that we will receive in an hour

3 or two, but that has not yet been given to us.

4 Therefore, Mr. President, as far as new witnesses are concerned,

5 unfortunately, the Defence's position is very firm, and that is "no." And

6 no also because at the moment we don't have this answer to the question

7 that has been not given to your Chamber or to us, because we have asked

8 before your Chamber to be authorised - that was yesterday - 22 of May, in

9 application of Rule 73(B) as it stands -- as of 8th of May, 2002.

10 What would be wise is to first find out what will be as to your

11 decision on the possibility or not to go ahead with the appeal and then

12 examine the question of new witnesses. If we go the other way around, we

13 will have this mechanics which will not work. It will complicate the

14 matters, increase the confusion and certainly delay the proceedings.

15 Now, considering other points that were made by Mr. Ierace, I

16 think that we cannot immediately bring a response. We conferred, and as

17 soon as we can do it, which is after next break, we will bring you here

18 what our position on these other matters is. Thank you very much.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

20 The Chamber has conferred during the break, Mr. Ierace, in respect

21 of what is by now called the grattage issue. If the Prosecution would not

22 be in a position to give the results of the investigations that are on

23 their way at this moment, the Chamber would like to be informed

24 within one week from now in a more detailed fashion about the efforts

25 taken by the Prosecution in order to resolve that issue, specifically, who

Page 8829

1 and especially when did what. I mean, whether there were any letters

2 that was sent or someone sent or interviews that have taken place or that

3 it took a couple of days to find someone who was working at that very time

4 at that hospital, well, we would like to be informed.

5 MR. IERACE: I have some news about that, Mr. President.

6 JUDGE ORIE: We prefer to have that, even if it would be briefly

7 in writing, so that we have a survey. If you could give us the main lines

8 in one minute, we would be glad to hear. If not, then we just rely on

9 any written.

10 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I spoke to Mr. Stamp during the

11 break. He spoke to the investigator in Sarajevo yesterday. And he will

12 be in the Trial Chamber taking the next witness, and at the outset, he

13 will update you on what the investigator had to say. So that

14 investigative phase is now completed.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, so we will hear what Mr. Stamp tells us and if

16 it would not be satisfactory at this very moment for the Chamber, then of

17 course still we would like to be informed within one week in more detail

18 about the efforts made. Thank you, Mr. Ierace.

19 Would the Prosecution be ready to call its next witness?

20 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, before that occurs --

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

22 MR. IERACE: -- some enquiries have also been made about the

23 document issue which rose --

24 JUDGE ORIE: Before the break. Yes, that is P2097. Yes.

25 MR. IERACE: Perhaps this would be a convenient time.

Page 8830

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, if we can deal with that.

2 Ms. Mahindaratne.

3 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Yes, Mr. President. We have the original here

4 of which the translations and the photocopies were made. And it is

5 pertinent to note that in the original the date seems to resemble more

6 10th of January, 1994, where --

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If you want to make any further observations

8 and, otherwise, I would like you first to hand out the original of the

9 document to the Defence and then to the Bench.

10 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence would

11 like to have another response from our learned colleague since we started

12 these matters. Yesterday, we submitted a request to the Prosecution

13 regarding the 1st Corps of the BH army, the material that the --

14 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, we are trying not to mix up things.

15 At this very moment, you have been given a --

16 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Very well, Mr. President.

17 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]...and then we will

18 see whether at a later stage we can deal with the issue you want to

19 raise.

20 [Trial Chamber confers]

21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] May I, Mr. President?

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

24 Indeed, it seems that things look different. I am not saying they

25 are clearer; I am saying they are different. We do not see --

Page 8831

1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, before commenting on the copy you

2 just received, could you please first give it to the usher so that the

3 Chamber can have a look at it as well.

4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, of course. I apologise,

5 Mr. President. I completely forgot.

6 [Trial Chamber confers]

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin. Do you need to have it back

8 or --

9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No, thank you very much. No.

10 But the only thing that I wanted to say, Mr. President, is that things

11 seem more legible, although they are not really clearer. Because if we

12 take the translation that you received earlier, it is possible to see very

13 well that the size of the "0" which is mentioned as a date of admission,

14 the 10th of January, is as big as. So the "0," in its body of "0" is in

15 the same size as the others. But when we look at the original, or at

16 least the best copy that you have before you, we can see that the body or

17 the size of the "0" is smaller than any other numbers, as if -- I am

18 saying "as if" it is the lower part of another number which could have

19 been an 8 or a 6. If we compare the previous document submitted by the

20 Prosecution -- I am not an expert in these matters and of course it is up

21 to you to decide on it, Mr. President. Thank you very much,

22 Mr. President.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

24 [Trial Chamber confers]

25 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber decides that document 2097 and 2097.1 are

Page 8832

1 admitted into evidence. We did not neglect your last observation,

2 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, but as we have seen at quite some occasions before, not

3 always a "0" is used but very often an "O" is used, at least a small type,

4 and therefore it does not raise such doubts as not to admit the document

5 into evidence.

6 May I return -- Mr. Usher, could you please return this document

7 to the Prosecution.

8 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: For the transcript, maybe we should say we

9 are talking about an "O" and not a zero, and maybe we should clarify it in

10 some way.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, we now see not always a "0" is used and very

12 often a capital "O" is used. First time I said "zero," z-e-r-o, and the

13 second time I referred to a small "o."

14 Yes, now it is perfect. Is the -- yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I heard your

16 decision and I thank you for it, but in order to facilitate the progress

17 of justice, as this is our aim, perhaps the Prosecution could be asked to

18 produce, if they are able to, the original of this document.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Well, there is a request from the Defence.

20 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I can only give the answer that I have

21 given on other occasions, which is that we did our best to obtain original

22 documents. We have given explanations as to what steps we took, including

23 the undertaking of a specific mission to Sarajevo following the first time

24 that the Defence --

25 JUDGE ORIE: May I just cut it short? You say: "We are not in a

Page 8833

1 position at that moment to provide an original."

2 MR. IERACE: Yes. I thank you, Mr. President.

3 [Trial Chamber confers]

4 JUDGE ORIE: And the Chamber feels that it is not appropriate at

5 this moment to given an order in that effect.

6 Mr. Ierace.

7 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, the next witness will be taken by Mr.

8 Stamp, who is waiting outside the court. Would you excuse Prashanthe

9 Mahindaratne and myself, and Mr. Stamp will enter the courtroom and if you

10 wish, he can give that explanation that I foreshadowed earlier.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

12 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I am still waiting on Mr. Stamp. I

13 anticipate he will be here very shortly.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Is the witness already waiting outside or -- ?

15 MR. IERACE: Yes.

16 JUDGE ORIE: We then perhaps could escort the witness into the

17 courtroom so that he can give his solemn declaration that we don't have to

18 wait for.

19 MR. IERACE: I will let the usher know, Mr. President.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please.

21 Well, I see problems are, as sometimes happened, are solved.

22 Good morning, Mr. Stamp.

23 MR. STAMP: Good morning, Your Honours, Mr. President.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Before calling your next witness, would you be in a

25 position to very briefly explain to the Bench and, of course, that is an

Page 8834

1 explanation for the Defence as well, what progress is made in respect of

2 the investigation of what by now is called the "grattage."

3 MR. STAMP: The investigators were asked to take the documents or

4 a sample of the documents where those grattage were clearly apparent. And

5 they personal signed -- Dr. Debraca was asked about it. He checked his

6 records, and I think Your Honours will recall that there is some evidence

7 from the witness Edin Sulic took handwritten notes at the time when he did

8 the autopsies. And he said from his records - and I am not sure if those

9 were the notes - but from the record that he has, he confirmed that the

10 date on the documents are correct. He says that the corrections were made

11 at some time, but it was in 1995, and he can't remember who typed it, he

12 can't remember when the corrections were made. He can only confirm that

13 the dates there, which are corrections according to him, are the correct

14 dates referring to the incident.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So that is not yet a clear explanation of what

16 was under the correct dates and which was rubbed out.

17 MR. STAMP: No, he is the only person that we could contact to

18 begin looking into it. And he says that there are a variety of typists

19 who pass through the place over a period of time. He would never be able

20 to remember exactly who typed it or what was there.

21 JUDGE ORIE: No, but I think, for example, as far as my

22 recollection goes, an allusion has been made once on the use of forms so

23 that would explain in a more general way what might have been underneath

24 the final correct date. But something of that kind could not be an

25 explanation that general sense, could not be established.

Page 8835

1 MR. STAMP: No, my Lord. A letter was sent to me in respect of

2 the results of the enquiries and I did call the investigators and made

3 detailed enquiries, and the doctor says he just can't recall who corrected

4 it and at what stage. He knows that he signed them and he knows that the

5 dates, as he sees them there, are the correct dates from his records, and

6 the names that he sees are the names of the persons on whom he conducted

7 autopsies. But given time as he was given by the investigators in

8 Sarajevo, he was not able to remember the details of anything.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Of how it happened. Yes.

10 Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, considering

12 that this was a very swift explanation by Mr. Stamp, the French booth was

13 not able to hear the names of the doctor and of another person. Could

14 you, Mr. Stamp, please repeat the names of a doctor and of another

15 person.

16 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter apologises, I didn't catch Mr.

17 Piletta-Zanin's --

18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I don't know if there is a

19 problem of interpretation. Do you want me to speak in English? [In

20 English] The names you just gave me a moment ago, please.

21 MR. STAMP: The name is Dr. Debraca, which is the same name which

22 appears on the documents. I am trying to recall who is the other person I

23 referred to by name. I don't think I referred to any other person by

24 name.

25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I don't doubt your memory, but

Page 8836

1 I think you may have mentioned a patient or documents in relation to other

2 patients, but that doesn't matter.

3 Mr. President, am I authorised to --

4 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Page 45, line 3, you mentioned Edin

5 something.

6 MR. STAMP: Edin Sulic.

7 JUDGE ORIE: The witness who has already testified in the

8 courtroom. Edin Sulic.

9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, may I give the

10 position of the Defence very briefly, please? Very briefly.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, if you could just do it in --

12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very briefly.

13 Mr. President, I can say that several weeks now that we can call

14 an incident of proceedings, nothing has been done. Nothing has been done

15 to find out what happened with the grattage procedure. I believe that

16 what I understand in any language what you asked was not a confirmation

17 of a doctor on a date or another date, but how this grattage could be

18 explained. Today, we don't know anything because nothing has been done,

19 absolutely nothing. Therefore, the Defence, considering this, the Defence

20 is asking formally a decision from your Chamber so that these exhibits are

21 made inadmissible. We cannot continue in this way. The Defence cannot

22 accept this. And I thank you in advance for this decision that you will

23 take shortly. Thank you.

24 JUDGE ORIE: We will consider the matter, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

25 Mr. Stamp, would you -- could the Prosecution call its next

Page 8837

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

Page 8838

1 witness.

2 MR. STAMP: Indeed. Could the witness Zdenko Eterovic be brought.

3 [The witness entered the courtroom]

4 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning. Mr. Eterovic, I assume?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Can you hear me in a language you understand?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Before giving testimony in this court, the Rules of

9 Procedure and Evidence require you to make a solemn declaration that you

10 will speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. May I

11 invite you to make that declaration of which the text will be -- should

12 already by handed out to you by the usher.

13 WITNESS: ZDENKO ETEROVIC

14 [Witness answered through interpreter]

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

16 speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Eterovic. Please be seated. Counsel

18 for the Prosecution will be first to examine you.

19 Please proceed, Mr. Stamp.

20 Examined by Mr. Stamp:

21 Q. Good morning, Mr. Eterovic. Can we begin by stating your name

22 and occupation for the record.

23 A. Yes, we can begin. My name is Zdenko Eterovic. I am currently

24 the judge at the Supreme Court of the Federation of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

25 Q. What was your employment during the years 1992 to 1995?

Page 8839

1 A. From 1975, I have been a judge, that is from the very first day of

2 my work until today, except that I have worked on different judge --

3 different courts of different levels. In 1994, 1995, 1996, I was a judge

4 at the high court of Sarajevo.

5 Q. And as a judge of the high court of Sarajevo in 1994, in

6 particular, did your role involve participating or directing

7 investigations of certain incidents?

8 A. Yes. Among other tasks at the court, I also did work for an -- as

9 an investigative judge or investigating incidents, as we called it.

10 Q. Can you recall approximately how many incidents involving shelling

11 where there were civilian casualties that you investigated in the period

12 September 1992 to August 1994? And I am going to ask you to give us an

13 approximation.

14 A. For me, the word "incident," to say that is too small a term. I

15 would translate it as an unfortunate accident, incident. But I took part

16 in about 300 to 400 of such incidents.

17 Q. And can you recall approximately how many of these incidents - if

18 you pardon my using the expression - you investigated involving civilian

19 deaths of more than two persons within that period, 1992 September to

20 1994 August?

21 A. I can't give you, of course, the exact number, but it is certain

22 that it was from 100 to 150 of such investigations that I conducted.

23 Q. Now, I would like to take you to two investigations in

24 particular. Do you recall participating in an investigation on the 20th

25 of January -- I beg your pardon, the 22nd of January, 1994?

Page 8840

1 A. Yes, I do. Yes, I do remember.

2 Q. Can you recall where this investigation took place or where you

3 went to?

4 A. It was conducted in the municipality of Novi Grad. The

5 neighbourhood is called Alipasino Polje. At the time these streets were

6 called Cetinska Street and Klara Zetkin Street.

7 Q. And did you write a report in respect of that investigation?

8 A. Yes, I did. After each investigation, there would be a report.

9 We would call it a record of an investigation and this report was also

10 compiled after this incident.

11 Q. And you signed the report that you did?

12 A. Yes, I did.

13 MR. STAMP: With your leave, Mr. President, Your Honours, could

14 the witness be shown Exhibit 2171C?

15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Usher, could you please assist Mr. Stamp.

16 MR. STAMP: And the Court be shown that Exhibit as well as

17 Exhibit 2171C.1.

18 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stamp, I take it that you are aware that there

20 appears information in this document which relates to protected witnesses,

21 so, therefore, we have to deal with it very carefully.

22 MR. STAMP: Indeed. Indeed, Mr. President.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President, I just

25 wanted to use this occasion in order not to interrupt Mr. Stamp. 49.25:

Page 8841

1 It should be "investigation" instead of "subject."

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

3 Please proceed, Mr. Stamp.

4 MR. STAMP: Thank you, Mr. President.

5 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, counsel, please.

6 MR. STAMP:

7 Q. Having perused that document in front of you, do you see your

8 signature on it?

9 A. Yes, I do.

10 Q. And is that a copy of your report in respect of your investigation

11 of an incident in Alipasino Polje on the 22nd of January, 1994?

12 A. Yes, it is.

13 Q. You have in this document referred to casualties. Could you

14 briefly, if you can, tell us what procedures you employed to establish the

15 casualties in respect of this incident.

16 A. Like in any other investigation, we used the normal way, which is

17 to ask the witnesses who were at the scene of the incident, then going to

18 the hospital, gathering data at the hospital on who was brought, whoever

19 was dead, whoever was wounded, with all the identification possibilities

20 in order to identify these persons.

21 Q. Now, in the body of the report, it indicates that you went to -- I

22 beg your pardon -- not that you went to, but that the casualties were

23 taken to the state hospital and the Kosevo hospital. Did you go to those

24 hospitals as part of your investigations?

25 A. Yes, I did. After each investigation, these are the only two

Page 8842

1 hospitals --

2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I apologise.

3 I apologise. The French interpretation says "State hospital of Kosevo"

4 and we know very well that these are two different things: On one side,

5 state hospital, and on the other side, the Kosevo hospital.

6 MR. STAMP: Perhaps it is my fault. I'll try to speak a little

7 bit more slowly.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please do so, Mr. Stamp.

9 MR. STAMP: Very well, Mr. President.

10 Q. Among the list of casualties, do you see the name Goran Todorovic

11 there?

12 A. No, I don't see it. It is not on the list. However, of course, I

13 don't know this information. If on the basis of something else it was

14 established that he was also wounded, it is easy to find out. It's easily

15 happened. In Sarajevo, after a shell would land, everybody was trying to

16 find their way out of it. So if there was a shell that landed and if this

17 man, Todorovic, was either injured or perhaps if he was able to do it

18 himself or perhaps assisted by someone, maybe he went to a field surgery

19 or maybe he went by himself to a hospital and did not report his name to

20 the duty doctor, it is possible that he may well have been injured during

21 this incident, this event, and that he is not on the list. What I believe

22 and what I can claim is that these people who are on the list were

23 certainly injured and unfortunately died, and the list could only be

24 longer, not shorter.

25 Q. Thank you. Did you, in the course of your investigation of that

Page 8843

1 incident, go to a military medical institution at the former Viktor Bubanj

2 barracks?

3 A. Yes. The barracks is called Viktor Bubanj, but I never went. Not

4 only regarding this investigation, I never went. I don't think there

5 was a surgery there. But I am sorry, I have to add it is not close by.

6 Viktor Bubanj barracks, as the crow flies, is at least 500 metres, if not

7 a full kilometre, further away.

8 Q. Now, you indicated earlier that it is possible that a witness

9 might not be on the list, if he went to a field hospital. So, may I ask

10 you this: If this -- may I rephrase what I said. You indicated earlier

11 that it was possible that if a victim had been treated at a field hospital

12 and not at any other hospital that you went to, he might not be on the

13 list. So if in fact this person, Goran Todorovic, was treated at that

14 medical facility, you would not have had received that information from

15 that facility?

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. I would

18 like to intervene in order to obtain something precise. We never spoke of

19 field hospitals in Sarajevo so far. Could Mr. Stamp be a little more

20 precise as to which hospital he was referring? We never spoke of field

21 hospitals.

22 JUDGE ORIE: I think it was the witness who spoke about it and --

23 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter may have inadvertently used the

24 word "field hospital" as opposed to a surgery, an improvised surgery. I

25 am sorry, I heard it in another language, Mr. President.

Page 8844

1 JUDGE ORIE: There seems to be some confusion about words used

2 also by the interpretation. Perhaps if you but the question to the

3 witness again, keeping in mind the observation made.

4 MR. STAMP:

5 Q. You said earlier -- you said earlier that sometimes persons

6 injured in a variety of incidents may be treated at various medical

7 facilities which were outside of your purview of investigation. Could you

8 please clarify what you mean?

9 A. In wartime Sarajevo, there were two hospitals. One was Kosevo

10 hospital and the other one was state hospital. It changed the name from

11 "French" to "army" to the state hospital. At this time I believe it was

12 called the state hospital. So there were two hospitals. Apart from these

13 two hospitals, there were no other hospitals. There were no field

14 surgeries. There were just outpatient clinics. There were perhaps 10 or

15 20 of them. I can't tell you the exact number. But each municipality had

16 their own clinic. Now, where exactly it was in the city, in that part of

17 the city, I don't know because I live in Marin Dvor and I would know

18 exactly where the outpatient clinic in Marin Dvor would be.

19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] This clarifies the point.

20 Thank you very much.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Stamp.

22 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, it is not necessary when it is clear for

23 everyone that things have been clarified, we should not further interrupt

24 Mr. Stamp in his examination of the witness.

25 Please proceed, Mr. Stamp.

Page 8845

1 MR. STAMP:

2 Q. And from what you are saying, can we take it that had this person

3 Goran Todorovic been treated at a medical facility in the vicinity of the

4 Viktor Bubanj barracks, you would not have received information from that

5 barracks since you did not go there?

6 A. To tell you the truth, it is the first time I hear from you that

7 there was a clinic at that barracks. I know about the barracks, but the

8 answer -- my answer is certainly that I wouldn't have known. I wouldn't

9 have known that Goran Todorovic was wounded if he had gone to such a

10 clinic.

11 Q. Thank you.

12 You wrote in your report that two -- that three shells impacted

13 but two caused casualties, one at Cetinska Street and the other at Klara

14 Zetkin Street. And you indicated in your report where persons were

15 injured. At the time you wrote your report, had you had an opportunity to

16 interview any of the children who were injured in this incident, to find

17 out exactly where they were?

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I apologise,

20 but reading of this question during the -- in the transcript seems not

21 very clear to me and I believe that there is confusion between one, two

22 and three shells. Could we please clarify this?

23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, if it is not clear, the witness

24 will tell us. If it would be confusing, the Chamber will interfere, but

25 would you please let Mr. Stamp -- make it possible for Mr. Stamp to

Page 8846

1 examine the witness with as little interruptions as possible.

2 Please proceed, Mr. Stamp.

3 MR. STAMP: Thank you, Mr. President.

4 Q. What I want you to clarify, Mr. Eterovic, is whether or not you

5 were able to confirm from the children themselves where exactly they were

6 playing in front of which building they were playing at the time when you

7 wrote your report?

8 A. I was able to establish this, unfortunately, based on the parts of

9 the bodies of the children on the spot, including some -- what they were

10 wearing and shoes, where they were on the snow, but unfortunately, I did

11 not speak to the children. They were taken to the hospital. There were

12 not very many witnesses. There was a lot of fear at the time in that

13 location. So I remember that -- when I remember that incident, what I

14 remember is a great deal of silence.

15 Q. Did you participate - and we are moving on now very quickly - in

16 an investigation of an incident of the 4th of February, 1994, in Dobrinja?

17 A. Yes, I did. That was in Dobrinja I. That is correct.

18 Q. And did you write a report in respect to your investigation of

19 that incident?

20 A. Yes, I did.

21 Q. And did you sign it?

22 A. Yes, I did.

23 MR. STAMP: May I, Mr. President, Your Honours, with your leave

24 tender to the witness Exhibit P2247B.1.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Leave is granted. Could you please assist, Mr.

Page 8847

1 Usher.

2 MR. STAMP:

3 Q. Do you see your signature on that document?

4 A. Yes, I do. That is my signature.

5 Q. And is that your report in respect to the incident of the 4th of

6 February, 1994?

7 A. Yes, it is. That is my report. It is a report on investigation.

8 Report on on-site investigation.

9 Q. Can you tell us, in respect to the casualties, which hospitals or

10 medical facilities did you visit as part of your investigations?

11 A. Dobrinja is a very specific locality in Sarajevo, which is in

12 itself in a blockade, like the whole of Sarajevo, so you can imagine there

13 was a mini blockade of Dobrinja only linked by one street to Sarajevo. So

14 what they had was a kind of clinic. They called it a hospital. So, in

15 the first instance, after we conducted our usual on-site investigations,

16 we went to their so-called hospital. I call it a clinic.

17 After that, we went to the Kosevo hospital.

18 Q. Did you speak to a doctor or the doctors at the Dobrinja medical

19 facility?

20 A. I remember in that medical facility in Dobrinja that doctor, he

21 founded it. I don't know his name but he is an Arab. There were two

22 nurses and himself. He was the one who gave me most of the information,

23 along with the nurses, and of course everything we were able to see for

24 ourselves. It is a very small clinic, a very small facility, which only

25 has two rooms, very small, and one small office.

Page 8848

1 Q. Could you comment, if you can, about what you observed when you

2 went there in respect of your observations of this incident. What was

3 the scene like at the Dobrinja hospital or, if you will, clinic?

4 A. Well, this investigation, this on-site investigation was chaotic.

5 It was probably one of the most difficult ones, professionally speaking,

6 because Dobrinja anyway was a kind of locality which suffered a great deal

7 in the war. There were many dead, many wounded, and in this hospital, I

8 can only remember one, for instance, situation when we are looking over

9 the dead and we are looking at some kind of wood store, they were just

10 putting the dead there. And the wounded were everywhere: on the tables,

11 on the floors. In this office, there were wounded people lying there.

12 People were going in, asking for their nearest and dearest. It was a very

13 chaotic situation in that clinic which, of course, wasn't surprising

14 considering its size and considering the number of the wounded and the

15 dead.

16 Q. Did the doctor indicate to you whether they were able to treat

17 everyone who had been injured?

18 A. No. He immediately said that he had sent to Kosevo hospital some

19 six or some three -- I am sorry. I would have to check that in the

20 documents, these patients to the Kosevo hospital, because he thought he

21 was not able to provide treatment. But the others were there. Of course,

22 the wounded -- it was very hard to get from Dobrinja to Sarajevo and it

23 was very risky to even come to an on-site investigation, let alone

24 transfer the wounded over there. So the very first aid hospitalization

25 was done by this doctor with his medical personnel. And then what he

Page 8849

1 would do is he would sent people perhaps later to the Kosevo hospital.

2 Q. Did he indicate what he could do in those circumstances with

3 persons who were only slightly injured from the incident?

4 A. Those who were only slightly wounded, and I saw this personally,

5 he would clean their wounds, dress them, and release them immediately. A

6 while ago you mentioned Mr. Todorovic. There were, of course, more people

7 who were wounded, but they would be only slightly wounded and they would

8 have been released by the time I arrived or even during my investigation.

9 Q. Did you see any record being kept in respect to those people who

10 could be dressed and released immediately?

11 A. Probably those who were only cut or slightly wounded were not

12 recorded. This clinic had its log book, its register, and the data would

13 be entered, their details. But those who are only slightly wounded would

14 not undergo this procedure because of the enormous number of people

15 there. They were lying on the floor. It was a difficult to walk. So

16 only those who were more seriously wounded were recorded.

17 Q. Could you have a look at your report, Doctor.

18 A. Yes, yes, I have had a look at it.

19 Q. I am sorry, Judge, if I referred to you as Doctor, but could you

20 please --

21 A. Thank you.

22 Q. -- look at page -- where is it?

23 Page 2 of your report. In the middle of that page, do you see

24 the name "Sabahudin Ljusa"?

25 A. Yes. Yes, I see it.

Page 8850

1 Q. And it is on the statement that the following individuals received

2 first aid but died on admission to Kosevo hospital. And if you look on

3 the same page below, in the long list, at number five, do you see the

4 name --

5 THE INTERPRETER: Could the question please be repeated, Mr.

6 President? We didn't get it in the French booth.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Could you repeat the question, Mr. Stamp.

8 Q. Doctor, please look at the name Sabahudin Ljusa at number 3, in

9 the middle of the page, and the name Ljusa Sabahudin at number five

10 just below. Do you see them? I beg your pardon, Judge.

11 A. In Sarajevo, it is a compliment if someone calls you a doctor, so

12 thank you very much.

13 Yes, I have seen it. It is obviously a mistake made by me, but

14 the error would be due to the chaos prevailing at the time both in the

15 hospital and in my head. I assert that ultimately - although I never saw

16 - but we did take photographs so we are certain that nine people were

17 killed. Thank God Sabahudin Ljusa is alive, and I learned that later.

18 But when I was drawing up this report, obviously, I didn't notice because

19 of the data I received from the hospital that I listed the same person as

20 both killed and wounded. However, because of the number of casualties and

21 the chaos that was prevailing there at the time, it is quite possible to

22 make an error of this kind.

23 Q. Thank you. Could you have a look at that part of your report

24 under the heading "description of the scene"? And could you read the

25 first paragraph. You need not read it out loud. Read it and I will ask

Page 8851

1 you a question.

2 A. Yes. I will try. "The shelling occurred at around 11.30. A

3 total of three shells fell. The first three landed almost simultaneously.

4 One hit the window frame in --

5 THE INTERPRETER: Would the witness please slow down.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Eterovic, it has to be translated by the

7 interpreters. So if you read, if you would do it is bit more slowly.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Excuse me.

9 JUDGE ORIE: But I think that Mr. Stamp indicated to you that if

10 you would just read it in silence, that would be good enough. We all have

11 the text in front of us.

12 MR. STAMP:

13 Q. Just the first paragraph of that section, please.

14 A. "In the two rooms of that ground floor flat in which a mosque had

15 been situated and the mejtef during the wartime, a shell stabiliser was

16 not found, neither was any shrapnel found. And the place -- from the

17 place where the landed, the direction was established to be south or

18 south-east from the trajectory of the shell."

19 Q. Thank you very much.

20 You say it was established to be a particular direction. Who

21 established that, Judge, can you say?

22 A. In this case, I reinforced my team because we were told that there

23 were over 100 people killed. So we doubled the usual team. Usually,

24 there were three or four team members, along with me, but in this case,

25 there were at least eight of us because I demanded that we take two

Page 8852

1 ballistic experts with us, unlike the previous on-site investigation

2 where there was only one ballistics expert. Here there were two. One of

3 them was Zlatan Medjedovic, who died a year or two ago, and Mirza

4 Sabljica. They were the ones that told me that the direction -- that that

5 was the direction that had been established.

6 If I may only add something. Establishing the direction is not

7 difficult in itself. We had 300.000 ballistic experts in Sarajevo. We

8 all knew, judging by the remains and the concentration of shrapnel, where

9 the shell had come from. But, of course, I, even though I did have some

10 knowledge of this, I did not establish the direction myself. I actually

11 relied on ballistics experts.

12 Q. One thing, if I may try to clarify it for the record, and perhaps

13 you could look at your report, who were the two ballistic experts that

14 accompanied you on this investigation? I think there is an error, Mr.

15 President, Your Honours, in the record, so the question will just clarify

16 it, in the names.

17 A. The chief ballistic expert was Zlatan Medjedovic. He is a person

18 that died about two years ago but he was the most experienced expert at

19 the time. He assistant was Mirza Sabljica. If you compare this to the

20 previous investigation, he was a forensic technician, and he underwent

21 training in this period of time. Zlatan Medjedovic and Mirza Sabljica

22 were the ballistics experts.

23 Q. Can you recall exactly -- well, you said you were able to

24 establish the direction from which it came, but can you recall exactly who

25 told you the direction that that particular shell which hit the mejtef

Page 8853

1 came from?

2 A. This building, all right. Let me tell you, Zlatko Medjedovic said

3 this. The stabiliser of the third shell was even found stuck there. So

4 it was easy to establish the direction, and they all came from the same

5 direction. All this was established by Zlatko Medjedovic, with the aid of

6 Mirza Sabljica. They used a compass and a pencil or a rod. They had a

7 rod about a metre long which they would put into that small hole, the

8 crater, made by this type of shell when it landed on impact.

9 The impact was in the right wall next to the window frame, so it

10 is much easier to do when dealing with a flat surface.

11 Q. Thank you. Now, what was the direction that the shell that hit

12 the Muslim primary school? May I rephrase? What was the direction of

13 origin of the shell that hit the Muslim school? Perhaps you may consult

14 your record.

15 A. I should look at the report. But it is not a school. A mejtef is

16 a room used by Muslims to perform their religious customs. They had no

17 mosque so they improvised a mosque in this flat. It is possible that

18 children did have some religious education there, but it is not a Muslim

19 school, actually.

20 Q. Thank you. This place where there was this improvised mosque, can

21 you just have a look at your record and tell us what was the direction

22 from which that shell had been fired from?

23 A. Let me tell you. I remember precisely that the shell hit the

24 right-hand side of the window frame of that flat. The direction was

25 established by the ballistics experts because a hole was found there, and

Page 8854

1 they put a rod or a pencil inside and were able to establish precisely

2 from which direction the shell had arrived. They could not tell the

3 distance at that point. They would have to calculate it and then put it

4 in the report.

5 Q. Could you look at your report, please.

6 A. East, south-east.

7 Q. Thank you.

8 MR. STAMP: That is the examination-in-chief, if it pleases you,

9 Mr. President.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Stamp.

11 Ms. Pilipovic, is the Defence ready to cross-examine the witness?

12 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE ORIE: You will now be examined, Mr. Eterovic, by counsel

14 for the Defence.

15 Cross-examined by Ms. Pilipovic:

16 Q. [Interpretation] Mr Eterovic, good day.

17 A. Good day.

18 Q. Mr. Eterovic, today during your examination-in-chief, you told us

19 that between 1992 and 1995, you carried out 300 to 400 on-site

20 investigations?

21 A. Yes, of various kinds to be sure.

22 Q. Can you clarify when you say "of various kinds"?

23 A. Well, to the second question, I responded that the investigation I

24 carried out, there were two or three dead. Sometimes there were 100,

25 150. Unfortunately, there were also a lot of suicides, robberies, even

Page 8855

1 traffic accidents, which sounds absurd. So all those investigations were

2 carried out by me, among others.

3 JUDGE ORIE: There seems to be a technical problem. I see that

4 one of the court reporters is not hearing.

5 THE INTERPRETER: Mr. President, the French booth asks the witness

6 to slow down and to restart his answer.

7 JUDGE ORIE: I just didn't hear you, I am afraid.

8 THE INTERPRETER: To restart his answer and to repeat his answer

9 because we didn't get it, and he is also speaking a bit too fast.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Eterovic, may I ask you again first to slow down

11 a bit. And apart from that, restart the answer that you gave to the

12 question.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In the period from December or

14 November 1992, when I started doing this job, until just before the war

15 and even after the war, that is 1996, I cannot be very precise, of

16 course - the information is somewhere in the court archives - I carried

17 out between 300 and 400 on-site investigations during the war. Of that

18 number, about 100 to 150 related to shelling or sniping incidents.

19 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. Mr. Eterovic, when you said "100 to 150 shelling and sniping

21 incidents," are you saying that you drew up a report for each of these

22 on-site investigations?

23 A. Yes, and I personally have all these documents, and had someone

24 asked me to, I would have brought them with me.

25 Q. When you say that you have this documentation, that is, you say

Page 8856

1 you have -- are you saying you have only records or do you also have

2 accompanying documents?

3 A. No, I am referring only to the records I drew up.

4 Q. Thank you. When you were carrying out these on-site

5 investigations, and I am referring to the 100 to 150 you mentioned, were

6 you always accompanied by a team of experts who were competent to give

7 their opinion and their findings?

8 A. I don't know what sort of experts you are referring to. If you

9 mean ballistics experts, in case of shelling incidents, the answer is

10 yes.

11 Q. When you say, "ballistics experts if there was a shelling, yes,"

12 can you tell us about sniping incidents?

13 A. It varied. With snipers in the beginning, up until mid 1994, we

14 did not carry out on-site investigations

15 JUDGE ORIE: May I again interrupt you. When I hear the speed the

16 French booth has to develop, it is really too much. Could you,

17 Mr. Eterovic, look at your screen and not start to answer the question

18 until the text stops moving.

19 Well, I don't have to explain to you, Ms. Pilipovic. Please

20 proceed.

21 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

22 Q. Mr. Eterovic, you started answering my question with respect to

23 investigations of sniping incidents. You told us that until mid-1994, you

24 did not carry out on-site investigations. Can you tell us more precisely

25 when in 1994 you started carrying out such investigations for sniping

Page 8857

1 incidents?

2 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I apologise, I think

3 witness is not getting a translation.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I do, but I have to wait.

5 Let me tell you what I was talking about. In the beginning, there

6 were only two investigating judges, myself and another one. Later on,

7 there were three and then four. And we simply did not manage to find the

8 time to look into everything that was going on in Sarajevo. And for this

9 reason, the president of the court had a sort of in-house agreement with

10 us investigating judges and this was that we should carry out on-site

11 investigations when it was safe to do so, although this sounds very

12 cruel, but only when more than two or three people were killed.

13 It was only in mid-1994, as far as I can recall, that UNPROFO

14 initiated the carrying out of on-site investigations in sniping incidents.

15 Let me add something: This does not mean we were not allowed to go out

16 and carry out an on-site investigation if there was a sniping

17 incident. So sometimes this did happen, but I don't remember myself

18 having done that before mid 1994.

19 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. When you told us that you carried out on-site investigations in

21 cases of shelling incidents and that there were 100 or 150 of those,

22 could you tell us the time? Was this in 1992 to 1994, or do you allow

23 that this might have been between 1992 and 1995?

24 A. I don't feel that this is important, but, yes, it is possible

25 that 1995 entered into this period. In 1995, there was less shelling, so

Page 8858

1 it is possible that this number would include 1995 as well. But the

2 number of incidents in 1995 would have been very small.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, could you find a suitable moment in

4 one of the next minutes to conclude just for the break.

5 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

6 Q. To my learned friend's question, you responded that you did not

7 know that there was a clinic in the Viktor Bubanj barracks as far as you

8 know. Can you tell us, do you know what there was there?

9 A. Yes. There was a military prison and a military court which I

10 never entered.

11 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this is a good time

12 for a break.

13 JUDGE ORIE: We will adjourn until 10 minutes to 1.00.

14 --- Recess taken at 12.26 p.m.

15 --- On resuming at 12.51 p.m.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, please proceed.

17 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

18 Q. Mr. Eterovic, you told us that in the barracks Viktor Bubanj

19 there was a military prison and a military court. Could you tell us as a

20 judge with many years of experience and at that time an investigating

21 judge, what was your cooperation with military authorities?

22 A. Cooperation of the military court with the civilian courts, if we

23 call them that way, was non-existent. There was no joint cooperation or

24 there was no need for one. They were competent, according to law, for

25 everything that was going on on the front line and in the army. While the

Page 8859

1 civilian courts, where I worked, and of course municipal courts, within

2 their area of competence, worked for the civilian population, that is, for

3 civilian offences, if we can call them that, offences against the civilian

4 population.

5 Q. Mr. Eterovic, would you agree with me if I say in the period from

6 1992, 1993, 1994, 1995, but we will concentrate on the period between

7 1992 and 1994, that in the area of Sarajevo, there was a war?

8 A. Well, first of all, we won't agree on that. Because "war," it

9 would mean that I had participated in the war. War is a war between two

10 armies.

11 Q. Mr. Eterovic, would you agree with me that in the period from 1992

12 on to 1993, 1994, in the area of the city of Sarajevo, and I mean its

13 centre and its -- and greater Sarajevo, specifically in 1992, 1993, 1994,

14 there were three armies: There was BH army, there was the VRS and there

15 was also the Croatian Defence Council?

16 A. If you are saying there were three armies, that is correct. And

17 it is also true that these three armies were in Sarajevo or around it,

18 that is correct.

19 Q. Do you have any information or knowledge that these three armies

20 were at war with each other in that area and the territory of the city of

21 Sarajevo and that there was combat activity between these three armies?

22 A. There were no combats between these three armies. There were --

23 on one side, there was one army, and then two on the other side. In

24 Sarajevo itself, there was no combat. In the Sarajevo itself, there was

25 never combat. There was combat outside Sarajevo. The difference is

Page 8860

1 considerable.

2 Q. Mr. Eterovic, when you say that in Sarajevo there was no combat,

3 would you agree with me if I say that in the city of Sarajevo, the BH

4 army, its personnel, and I mean the part of Sarajevo which was under the

5 control of the BH army, that the army, the 1st Corps of BH army, had 11

6 brigades?

7 A. I haven't got a clue. I really truly say I don't have a clue

8 about that.

9 Q. If I tell you that this army was located in that part of Sarajevo,

10 would you agree with me?

11 A. I wouldn't. Again, I won't agree with you.

12 Q. And why is that?

13 A. I won't agree with you because in Sarajevo there were a few

14 barracks that we knew, of course, but the soldiers, apart from the duty

15 services, were not at all in the barracks unless, of course, they were on

16 the front lines, but they were going home. So to your question, if I

17 answered "yes," that would mean that all of the armies were located in

18 that barracks, which isn't true.

19 A. When you say that if you answered yes to my question that that

20 would mean that all the army was in the barracks and that was not true,

21 could you perhaps tell me where were these soldiers? Where were the

22 troops.

23 A. I cannot tell you precisely because I do not know. But I can tell

24 you approximately that the area where I live, which is the centre part of

25 Marin Dvor, I know that in Marsal Tito barracks, there were some troops,

Page 8861

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

Page 8862

1 that in the former Radio Danijel Osman was a HQ, I think, of the 1st

2 Corps, but I can't possibly be certain of that. And -- oh, yes, I am

3 sorry, and, of course, Hotel Zagreb, that is where troops were. It wasn't

4 barracks, there was just a unit that was there. Their accommodation was

5 there. That was near my apartment.

6 Q. When you went to conduct on-site investigations, when you tell us

7 about the investigations that we have reports of, could you tell us who

8 would you inform about this incident, for instance, about this incident

9 that you would conduct?

10 A. I would not inform anyone. I would not inform anyone. Simply, I

11 was doing my job.

12 Q. Could you tell us, not only for these two investigations, but for

13 the other investigations that you conducted between 1992 and 1994, was

14 there UNPROFOR present at these investigations on-site investigations, or

15 any UNPROFOR representatives?

16 A. To start with, UNPROFOR came very rarely to on-site

17 investigations. It was only later, after General Rose came and this

18 incident, that is, Markale, it was mandatory that we would have to inform

19 UNPROFOR unless they already knew about it. So later on, what happened,

20 we would wait for the start of the -- we would wait for the start of the

21 on-site investigation with the UNPROFOR officers.

22 Now, I will tell you another thing. Earlier, we mentioned

23 ballistics expert, and when our ballistics experts went, for instance

24 Zlatko Medjedovic, Borislav Stanko, and others, it never happened that our

25 analysis, our examination of the trajectory of the shell or the calibre of

Page 8863

1 the shell or the position of where it was fired from, it never differed

2 from the UNPROFOR findings.

3 Q. Could you tell us about these investigations that you know of

4 where UNPROFOR conducted any investigation?

5 A. I can list a number of them. I was -- I can only tell you my

6 own, not these two, not these two investigations that we spoke about.

7 UNPROFOR did not attend these investigations. But UNPROFOR came twice for

8 on-site investigations at Holiday Inn, once in Bistrik, when over 10

9 people were killed for queueing for water, and UNPROFOR came at least 20

10 times for incidents relating to sniping of a tram. At times when tram

11 would start working.

12 Q. Mr. Eterovic, if I put it to you that during the proceedings we

13 have heard witnesses who told us that during their mandate in the city of

14 Sarajevo as UN personnel, they had information that members of BH army

15 were shelling parts of Sarajevo, including civilians, water queues and

16 markets. During the investigations, on-site investigations with

17 UNPROFOR, did you have any information from which positions a specific

18 incident happened or shells were fired from or fire came from?

19 A. I could give you this answer: Naturally that these UNPROFOR

20 teams changed, of course, through their national membership and also they

21 varied in quality. What happened in other on-site investigations, I

22 cannot tell you, I won't tell you and I wouldn't know. But I know that

23 on my on-site investigation, there was never a difference between the

24 ballistics analysis report of my experts and their experts. And let me

25 just finish. There was no on-site investigation where I attended or my

Page 8864

1 team attended, we never found that that there was shelling that came

2 from the positions of the BH army.

3 Q. Mr. Eterovic, when we are talking about the incidents of

4 shellings, specifically speaking, I will ask you about these two

5 incidents. You said that you personally never informed anyone about

6 this, what was the determined -- what was the outcome of the

7 investigation, but do you have any information or knowledge as to whether

8 on the level of the city of Sarajevo, and I mean the part which was under

9 the control of the Muslim army, the part that was under the control of the

10 Serb army, of the army of Republika Srpska, was there a mixed committee

11 that would take procedure following incidents that happened?

12 A. I don't know anything about it.

13 MR. STAMP: Well, I think the answer reflects what my objection

14 would be. Perhaps the expression "mixed" community or committee is a

15 little bit vague and the question should be a little bit more precise.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, as I -- well, the question has been answered

17 already. So it is not relevant any more, to pay any more attention to it.

18 So Ms. Pilipovic, please proceed.

19 But I would like to remind also, Mr. Stamp, that this morning when

20 there was an interruption from the Defence side, that I felt that the

21 witness was quite able to tell us if the question was not clear enough to

22 him.

23 Please proceed, Ms. Pilipovic.

24 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

25 Q. So, Mr. Eterovic, you confirm that you do not know that there were

Page 8865

1 mixed military committees that had their teams which checked

2 incidents and events that you conducted on-site investigations of?

3 A. Not only that I don't know, but if there was such a committee or

4 a commission, it is certain that it didn't function.

5 Q. When you say they didn't function, could you tell us why not?

6 Why you said that? Why, if it even existed.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, unless there is a problem in the

8 translation, the witness first testified that he would have no knowledge

9 about it. Then he said, "If there was such a committee," which confirms

10 again that he doesn't know that it was not functioning. And now you are

11 asking him why it didn't function, which of course asks specific knowledge

12 about both the existence of the committee and reasons why it was not

13 functioning.

14 So, let me just ask you, Mr. Eterovic, would you have any

15 knowledge on the existence or the functioning, apart from perhaps that you

16 didn't see any committee functioning? Apart from that, would you have any

17 knowledge about the existence or the functioning?

18 THE WITNESS: No, absolutely not. Not that it existed or that it

19 functioned.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed Ms. Pilipovic.

21 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. Mr. Eterovic, you compiled on the 22nd of January a report on the

23 on-site investigation. Could you tell us whether, together with this team

24 which is listed in the report, did you come with them or somebody came

25 before you?

Page 8866

1 A. The entire team always arrives together. The entire police, as we

2 called them, the CSB, Security Services Centre, had only one car so nobody

3 could arrive earlier. This on-site investigation, there was a policeman

4 who was a security officer from one of the Public Security stations who

5 was close by. He was only one. He was not a team member. He was a

6 security -- he was providing security for the site.

7 Q. Mr. Eterovic, as a judge who is conducting an investigation, you

8 are the person who is giving tasks to the members of your team who is

9 going to do what; is that correct?

10 A. Yes, that is correct. And that is why the on-site investigation

11 report ends with the directives, so to speak, of who is supposed to do

12 what.

13 Q. When you compile an on-site investigation and you conclude what is

14 to be found on the site, is it possible for any of the team members to

15 compile a report and draw different conclusions from the ones that you

16 drew? Is that possible?

17 A. Literally speaking, no. The answer is, it would not be possible.

18 But apart from my report or my record from the on-site investigation,

19 there is an official report, an official note - an official report - which

20 is compiled by the crime inspector who is also attending the site. So

21 what would be valid would be what is written by the judge. And if there

22 is a considerable difference between the judge's document and the document

23 drew up by the inspector, by the criminal inspector, then my paper would

24 be the one that would be competent. It would be relevant.

25 Q. Mr. Eterovic, apart -- in your report on the 29th of January,

Page 8867

1 1994, what was listed is that persons who were present were also the CSB

2 personnel of the gathering of data of war crimes. Could you tell us when

3 was this department for gathering data and information on war crimes

4 established?

5 A. I cannot answer that question. It was established -- I am not

6 quite sure, but some time during this period of time. It could be a month

7 before or so. It functioned independently. It had nothing to do with the

8 court. We were just asked -- considering that they had technical

9 equipment and it was good for us, we were asked to call them during the

10 on-site investigation. They were not allowed to do anything without me

11 and, in fact, they didn't do anything else apart from filming the site

12 with a video camera.

13 Q. Could you tell us, considering that they were filming with a video

14 camera, what were they -- their qualifications? What was their

15 educational background, these people that you were supposed to inform or

16 that you had to inform in the department for detection and gathering

17 information on war crimes?

18 A. First of all, I didn't say that I informed them. That is what

19 you said. What I said is that we were asked to allow them to attend the

20 site, the on-site investigation. Therefore, an investigative judge never

21 called that department to attend, nor did we need to do that. They were

22 probably informed by the CSB personnel, CSB staff, and they were probably

23 working together with them, possibly being informed what is going on and

24 where in Sarajevo. But I don't know what their qualifications were, their

25 educational background. I wasn't interested in that. I was interested in

Page 8868

1 my investigation team. And they were persons who attended the on-site

2 investigation with the authorisation of the president of my court. And in

3 fact, they didn't assist me in any way.

4 Q. Mr. Eterovic, on the 28th of November, 2001, you gave a statement

5 to the Prosecutor's office. In your statement, on page 1, you said that

6 it was from witness statements that you received information, specifically

7 speaking, about the incident of the 22nd of January. My question is: In

8 this situation, did you speak to witnesses, that is, eyewitnesses of the

9 events?

10 A. I already answered that -- the Prosecutor's question. We tried to

11 gather evidence to find out what happened. And it was two-fold: First of

12 all, through witnesses, in which case they would be listed in

13 the report. And, of course, on the basis of the traces on the site of

14 the incident. So I remember -- I don't have the report before me but I do

15 remember that certainly there was one or more witnesses, but I remember

16 one witness.

17 Q. You, as a judge, did you, and specifically we are talking about

18 the incident of the 22nd of January, did you have any information that in

19 the area of Alipasino Polje there was a factory which was manufacturing

20 ammunition, which was making ammunition?

21 A. I would like to take you to Sarajevo so that you can see this part

22 of town.

23 Q. Sir, I just asked you if you knew.

24 A. I don't know and I doubt that there was a factory there because,

25 objectively speaking, it is impossible to have that in that location.

Page 8869

1 Q. Do you have any information or knowledge that in the area where

2 you said three shells landed - and we are talking about Klara Zetkin and

3 Cetinska Street - there was a military facility where a military unit

4 called Kulin Ban was located?

5 A. Kulin Ban is a Croatian unit where my brother was. He died last

6 year. And I claim that he -- they were never there, but they were in

7 Marvin Dvor near the railway station, but in this location, there was not

8 a single military unit. I claim this responsibly. The closest one to

9 this location would have been military unit Viktor Bubanj. But as the

10 crow flies, it would be 500 to a full kilometre from there. And three

11 huge skyscrapers are in between this location and Viktor Bubanj.

12 Q. Mr. Eterovic, you said that the unit where your brother was, that

13 is the Croatian Defence Council, that that was located in Marin Dvor.

14 Now, if I put it to you that before this Tribunal there was a witness who

15 testified that he was seriously wounded in the incident, he said that at

16 the entrance to the building where he lived, that there was also a

17 detachment called Kulin Ban and that, every morning, they used their

18 APCs to go to the front lines, would you agree with me that this is

19 correct?

20 JUDGE ORIE: Please, Ms. Pilipovic.

21 MR. STAMP: I am very hesitant because I want to assist with the

22 expedition, but that is not a correct quote before the court.

23 JUDGE ORIE: I am certain, Ms. Pilipovic, that you have the

24 source nearby so that we can -- if you refer to this testimony, who

25 testified. Because it is not in my recollection, but if you would give

Page 8870

1 me perhaps the name of the witness, we could certainly look at it

2 immediately.

3 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I said Muhamed

4 Kapetanovic.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Do you have a literal text of the testimony in this

6 respect, but let me just see to find the testimony of --

7 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, my colleague will

8 find it in the transcript while I continue, part of the quote so that we

9 don't waste any time.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed. And I would like to be informed

11 about the page.

12 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. Mr. Eterovic, in relation to the area of the square where the

14 incident took place, how far is the hill of Mojmilo from that spot?

15 A. Which square are you referring to?

16 Q. The square where the incident took place. I am referring to Klara

17 Zetkin Street.

18 A. I apologise, but there is no square there.

19 Q. I know that those streets surround a square, but I am asking you

20 in relation to Klara Zetkin Street, could the hill of Mojmilo be seen from

21 there and how far was it?

22 A. It cannot be seen from that spot for the simple reason that it is

23 surrounded by skyscrapers. In my opinion, Mojmilo is quite close,

24 perhaps some 500 metres, because that is the last phase of Alipasino

25 Polje. The next phase in the direction of Dobrinja is Mojmilo. So it is

Page 8871

1 approximately 500 metres as the crow flies.

2 Q. In relation to Cetinska Street and the incident that took place in

3 front of number 3, can you tell us, from that position, is the hill of

4 Mojmilo visible and how far is it from there?

5 A. I have just answered this question. It cannot be seen, and I

6 think it is 500 metres away but not towards the west. Mojmilo is more to

7 the left so that would be south-west, not west.

8 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence wishes

9 to have the witness shown document P2172, which is a Prosecution Exhibit,

10 and would like to ask the witness to identify on this photograph the hill

11 of Mojmilo. The photograph can be placed on the ELMO and the Defence --

12 the Defence will hand it over.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Ms. Pilipovic, at the same time, I would like

14 to remind you that you spent already a bit more time than the

15 examination-in-chief.

16 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I have only few more

17 questions and I will try to finish as soon as possible.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please do so.

19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, in the

20 meantime, I believe that one of the references that you are looking for

21 is page 7067, line 7.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

23 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

24 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, only photograph

25 number 2. There is no name on that photograph.

Page 8872

1 Q. Mr. Eterovic, if you can, would you please put the photograph on

2 the ELMO. It says photo 2. Do you recognise this photograph?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Can you confirm that at the bottom of this photograph, in the

5 direction of the lamp posts, the hill of Mojmilo is visible?

6 A. Yes, partly.

7 Q. Would you agree with me that in the -- in 1994, this hill was

8 under the control of the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

9 A. This part, yes.

10 Q. Thank you. Mr. Eterovic, bearing in mind your profession, were

11 you informed that on the territory of the city of Sarajevo and especially

12 in the area of Bogusevac, it was established that there was a pit called

13 Kazani? Are you aware of this?

14 A. The answer is, yes, I do.

15 Q. Can you tell us what you know about this, you personally?

16 A. I have no personal knowledge. I have only second-hand knowledge,

17 what I heard from my colleagues who spoke to me of crimes which "we," in

18 quotation marks, had committed in Kazani.

19 Q. When you say "we" in quotation marks --

20 A. Well, I didn't commit any crimes.

21 Q. Well, when you say "we," who are you referring to?

22 A. I was a regular judge of the high court in Sarajevo of the

23 Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina. I think that this answer should be

24 sufficient for you.

25 Q. Did you as a judge try any perpetrators of crimes committed in

Page 8873

1 the Bogusevac area?

2 A. I don't know where Bogusevac is. If you are referring to

3 Kazani, no, this was done by the military court, not our court.

4 Q. When you say that they were tried by a military court, so the

5 military court tried members of the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Thank you, Your Honour.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Ms. Pilipovic.

9 First, I get some diverting information as far as the source is

10 concerned and since it does not appear in the transcript,

11 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, could you please repeat the page --

12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, apologise,

13 Mr. President. There are two pages. There is 7961, line 1, where the

14 answer given by the witness, and I can quote it in English:

15 [In English] "Kulin Ban staff was there." Full stop. And there is also

16 page --

17 THE INTERPRETER: We didn't hear the counsel. Could he repeat

18 it?

19 JUDGE ORIE: The English booth couldn't hear you. Could you

20 please repeat it?

21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] There is also the page 7957,

22 line 7, when we are talking more specifically of the vehicles, of

23 transport vehicles, Mr. President. And I will find this line since I --

24 I can quote: [In English] "There was an APC in front of their staff."

25 APC.

Page 8874

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The whole -- I beg your pardon.

2 MR. STAMP: I wondering if I could perhaps assist the Court

3 quickly, if I may.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

5 MR. STAMP: The references that the witness made to Kulin Ban, are

6 on the record and they are at a variety of places in the

7 examination-in-chief and in cross-examination. It will probably not be

8 very convenient to identify all of them now, because I have identified

9 some. But I believe if it is an issue that the tenor of his evidence was

10 that it was in Rade Koncara Square which, from his evidence, would have

11 been about 250 metres from his building, there was a unit called Kulin Ban

12 or an office of a unit called Kulin Ban and he saw an APC there. So if

13 the --

14 JUDGE ORIE: Well, let's be -- let's be brief. The way

15 Ms. Pilipovic presented evidence was not properly done. The word she used

16 was, well, let's say a free interpretation of what she thought the

17 evidence -- the testimony had been. So if you think the question is of

18 any importance, we have now located the sources and now by quoting parts

19 of the testimony of earlier witnesses, you, of course, may put the

20 question to this witness.

21 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I did not quote the

22 witness's words. I simply interpreted the essence of what Mr. Kapetanovic

23 said.

24 JUDGE ORIE: I think we -- you would have been better quoting him

25 because there seems to be some dispute about what the essence was and the

Page 8879

1 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]...raise the issue

2 with the Prosecution --

3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I have just seen it now. I

4 cannot possibly read everything at the same time.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Then you raise the issue with the Prosecution until

6 tomorrow morning and if the Prosecution agrees that parts of the text are

7 not properly translated, I think both parties will inform the Chamber that

8 a new translation is needed in order to have access to the real text of

9 this document. So the Chamber is -- will highly appreciate to hear the

10 outcome of your discussions with the Prosecution.

11 Is there any other issue?

12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. And this

13 is urgent. Thank you very much. Mr. President, the reason why I wanted

14 to inform you of something, and this is -- this is to do with the

15 Lieutenant-Colonel Cutler testimony. I don't know whether we are able to

16 sit until 2.00 or quarter to 2.00?

17 JUDGE ORIE: Tomorrow?

18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No, I am talking about now,

19 Mr. President.

20 JUDGE ORIE: We have still three minutes left.

21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Okay, I am going to speed

22 up. We just received, Mr. President, we just now, this minute, received a

23 document which is called supplemental information sheet which we received

24 from the Prosecution and which is to do with a Lieutenant-Colonel James

25 Cutler. I didn't have time to make copies to hand one to you. But this

Page 8880

1 is a document of two pages of -- containing new pieces of information.

2 None of this has been translated into Serbian. Obviously, we are not able

3 to discuss this with General Galic. And as it happens, as it happens, it

4 is today, the 23rd of May, this is Colonel Cutler arriving in extremis,

5 where he is suddenly remembering that he's had discussions with Henneberry

6 as to what Major Indjic allegedly said.

7 Now, Mr. President, if we had had these pieces of information in

8 our hands as the Rule 75 ter and 67, Rules of Procedure and Evidence --

9 but I can see that people are leaving and I can understand why. Now, if

10 we had these elements, Mr. President, we would have done our job, we would

11 have been able to examine Major Henneberry. Today we are given these

12 documents at the very moment when we were not able to ask the questions of

13 Major Henneberry and this happens without General Galic being able to be

14 informed in any language possible, this happens a few minutes before the

15 witness comes, and I won't be able to come tomorrow.

16 I think this is inadmissible and I am being very soft with my

17 words, Mr. President. I will not be here tomorrow, I am sorry, But next

18 week. I can see more people arriving. Now I want to have for next week

19 because the least of things is that we can be prepared properly,

20 particularly if we have additional information, which this is -- this

21 happens at the end of the day and it is not very good, Mr. President.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Could perhaps the Prosecution respond to the

23 observations and objections made by Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

24 MR. STAMP: Notwithstanding that I would like to, Mr. President,

25 I believe that my friend Mr. Mundis will be able to do so.

Page 8881

1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mundis.

2 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, during the final proofing of the next

3 witness, Lieutenant-Colonel Cutler, there was some information that he

4 provided to us which we have reduced in writing in a supplemental

5 information sheet. Part of the information contained in that sheet was

6 the direct result of myself asking the witness to think overnight about

7 some issues that we wanted to further clarify based on a previous

8 statement he had given to the office.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Could you give us a precise moment when he gave this

10 information to you which you have summarised in writing, when exactly?

11 What day, what time, approximately?

12 MR. MUNDIS: Well, the information contained in the report

13 partially came as a result of discussions with Colonel Cutler yesterday.

14 Part of the information contained in this report was being literally

15 typed up. I met with him immediately when I departed from the courtroom

16 following the testimony of Mr. Husovic. So in the intervening 90-minute

17 period, I met once again with Mr. Cutler to see if he had been able to

18 recollect some specific information based on questions that were put to

19 him yesterday afternoon.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Do I understand you well - that's my first question -

21 that the information was not available during or before the testimony

22 given by Mr. Henneberry?

23 MR. MUNDIS: That is correct. The information was not in our

24 possession prior to the testimony of Mr. Henneberry.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Also not in -- apart from the written form, but

Page 8882

1 the information as such was not -- had not come to you, not to your ears,

2 not to your eyes?

3 MR. MUNDIS: That is correct, Mr. President.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Let me just confer. Is there any other observation

5 you would like to make, because I interrupted you, Mr. Mundis?

6 [Prosecution counsel confer]

7 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, it would also be fair to point out

8 that in light of the testimony of Mr. Henneberry, we specifically put

9 questions to Mr. Cutler yesterday afternoon. As a result of that, we

10 asked him to spend the evening thinking about these matters and that we

11 would meet with him this morning, which in fact is what we did. At the

12 same time, I will clearly indicate that we specifically directed Mr.

13 Cutler not to discuss this matter with anyone else.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Did you inform Mr. Cutler about the content of the

15 testimony of the witness Henneberry in more detail?

16 MR. MUNDIS: No, absolutely not. We put to him a series of

17 questions not identifying Mr. Henneberry by name, nor did we provide him

18 with even a remote summary of what Mr. Henneberry testified to. We simply

19 put to him a series of questions based on the information that Mr.

20 Henneberry testified about.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, thank you for your information.

22 [Trial Chamber confers]

23 [Prosecution counsel confer]

24 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, if I may make one additional comment.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

Page 8883

1 MR. MUNDIS: The supplemental information sheet procedure or

2 process is one which the Prosecution has used on numerous occasions

3 throughout the course of this trial. Obviously they have not been

4 provided to the Chamber, just as we don't provide the Chamber with witness

5 statements. The information that is provided in these documents, on

6 several occasions, has also been exculpatory with respect to the accused,

7 General Galic. What we are trying to do is to make this process fair,

8 more fair to the Defence, in a sense that if a witness, during the final

9 discussions prior to testifying, provides new or additional information or

10 clarifies answers given in the statement, we make that information

11 available to the Defence in a written form so that they can have that

12 information available.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I have to admit

15 that I am just a modest co-counsel, but you can see today, the predicament

16 that we find ourselves in. The document has not even been given to us in

17 Serbian. It has only two pages. It could have been translated and it was

18 not. Now, chief counsel cannot have all the details and all the subtlety

19 of the documents in English, and I am not talking about the accused who is

20 not able to understand it. Now, what I understand is after the testimony

21 of a witness, questions were being asked of a witness and what is

22 happening is that difficulties are created for the Defence. This is not

23 what one would say this is becoming trying to make this trial fairer.

24 Thanks very much for that.

25 JUDGE ORIE: One moment, please.

Page 8884

1 [Trial Chamber confers]

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Mundis.

3 MR. MUNDIS: Just one final comment, Mr. President. Again, with

4 respect to the timing of the issue, this document I retrieved off of the

5 printer at 12.45 and brought down to the courtroom, I was faced with one

6 of two choices: I could put it into the hands of the Defence as quickly

7 as possible in English, or I could wait perhaps an hour and get it

8 translated into B/C/S and then provide it to the Defence.

9 JUDGE ORIE: You did both?

10 MR. MUNDIS: No, I did not, Mr. President. And in light of the

11 fact that I anticipated Witness Cutler commencing his testimony today, I

12 opted to get it to the Defence at the last break without a translation.

13 Had I known we would not get to this witness today, I would have

14 endeavoured to commence a translation of this document, and we can

15 probably still do that during the course of this afternoon.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The Chamber would like to consider the matter.

17 It is of no use staying in this courtroom. So we will decide on the

18 matter on very short notice. I expect --

19 [Trial Chamber confers]

20 JUDGE ORIE: The parties can expect a decision to be taken within

21 one hour from now on and the decision will be communicated in its essence,

22 and I think the most practical part of the decision would be whether we

23 start tomorrow morning with the testimony of Mr. Cutler or not. I think

24 that is the main issue, and what else should be done then later and

25 whether there should be given an opportunity for more time or -- it also

Page 8885

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

Page 8886

1 depends on whether translations are there. So the parties will be

2 informed this afternoon whether tomorrow morning the Prosecution will be

3 put in a position to --

4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you for your attention,

7 which I appreciate a great deal. The Defence does a great deal. I would

8 just like to remind you that I will not be able to be here tomorrow,

9 unfortunately, and that we would like to be represented tomorrow, and it

10 is not our fault if we are being given this kind of information just a few

11 hours before a witness's testimony.

12 JUDGE ORIE: I do understand. I didn't say anything about how the

13 testimony of Mr. Cutler would develop. I didn't say anything about

14 whether extra time would be granted in order to tackle new information not

15 available to the Defence at this moment, but I take it that the Defence

16 has prepared at least the cross-examination of Mr. Cutler. We have now a

17 new element which we will have to consider. As far as I understand your

18 decision not to be present tomorrow, where we could expect that not only

19 the examination-in-chief, but at least also the beginning of the

20 cross-examination of Mr. Cutler would take place, it is a decision that

21 was taken before and not during the last five minutes.

22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Absolutely.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Therefore, we took notice that you will not be there

24 and we will see how to proceed. In order to give a decision, the Chamber

25 would like to have a copy of the document that has been distributed.

Page 8887

1 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, I have one copy with me. I can

2 certainly endeavour to make copies or I can provide you with the sole copy

3 that I have and you can--

4 JUDGE ORIE: If you would provide copies to Madam Registrar and

5 she will distribute among the Chamber.

6 Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I just like to be precise that

8 this document is dated the 22nd, but it was probably compiled on the 23rd,

9 because we received it on the 23rd.

10 MR. MUNDIS: That is correct, Mr. President.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for this information. We will adjourn

12 until tomorrow morning, 9.00, same courtroom.

13 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

14 1.55 p.m., to be reconvened on Friday,

15 the 24th day of May, 2002, at 9.00 a.m.