1 Thursday, 18 July 2002

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.14 a.m.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone.

6 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Case Number IT-98-29-T, the Prosecutor versus

8 Stanislav Galic.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.

10 The Chamber apologises for the late start. We were dealing with

11 some urgent issues in this case.

12 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, I was informed that you would like to address

13 the Chamber.

14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President, with your

15 leave, very briefly. Thank you. With your leave?

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

18 Mr. President, last night, or rather this morning - late at night

19 - we have finished completing a document, complementary document in

20 relation to the report of Dr. Kovacs. I did not have time to copy this

21 document but if you would like to have one copy, it is at the disposal of

22 your Chamber and I can hand it to you now and we will make more copies

23 later.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Has the Prosecution already received a copy? In

25 general, I would like to discuss matters once the parties have exchanged

1 their views on the matter and not prior to that. That is just a matter of

2 efficiency. So if the -- of course, I do understand, when I look at these

3 papers, that I know what the subject would be. But I would rather first

4 have the parties to exchange their views and then put in front of the

5 Chamber what is in dispute and not do it by bits and pieces. Not because

6 we don't want to hear about it; you might have noticed already yesterday

7 that the Chamber is concerned about providing different copies of a

8 document to the Defence, apart from the time it takes and I take that it

9 has been considerable time.

10 But if you prepared anything specifically on this issue, let's

11 perhaps now spend two minutes on the main lines, but if the Prosecution

12 has not been informed about what your position is, you want to tell the

13 Chamber at this moment, we should keep it very brief because, otherwise,

14 we have part of the discussion now, part of the discussion two hours, part

15 of the discussion tomorrow morning, and I would rather concentrate. So if

16 you would please explain very briefly what your position is. Yes.

17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, yes, gladly.

18 The reason why I am doing it this way is only to facilitate the work of

19 the Prosecution. The reason is that the motion has been done in French

20 and nobody is able to grasp it immediately. And if I at least give its

21 contents before the Chamber, the Prosecution will be able to know what it

22 is about.

23 The reason -- or the fact is, Mr. President, the Defence cannot

24 accept documents that are false. I am saying documents that are false;

25 not falsified documents, not fakes, but false documents. There is a very

1 great distinction. Why, Mr. President? Because we discovered yesterday

2 that there was -- chronologically there was something that seemed to be

3 impossible. That is that the original of the document that was signed by

4 Dr. Kovacs dates -- the date is 30th of April 2002. The translation of

5 the document that we received is a translation, the one that was to be

6 disclosed, was to be admitted, dates the 18th of February 2002.

7 It is practically impossible - it is an oxymoron - it is

8 impossible that a document which is dated 30th of April can be filed as a

9 translation with a date of the 18th of February 2002. We discovered this

10 only yesterday because we only received the original yesterday, but

11 obviously this is a false document, and the Defence, that would like to

12 save time, we cannot accept this.

13 So, Mr. President, what we wanted to say is that in application of

14 the Article 94 bis, there are deadlines that Prosecution has to respect.

15 This has not been respected because the documents that were given to us,

16 handed over to us, were not the right ones. So since these delays were

17 not respected, we are asking for the application of Article 95, of Rule 95

18 and also asking the Prosecution why and how this happened.

19 I hope that I was sufficiently brief. Thank you.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. At least it is clear now for the Prosecution

21 what you seek and what your main arguments are. I take it that the

22 Prosecution will respond in due course. Mr. Piletta-Zanin, under the

23 present circumstances, the Defence, having been provided with different

24 copies of what -- well, different versions of the same document, I think

25 the Prosecution was -- should seek whatever assistance they would need in

1 order to understand a motion that has been drafted in one of the official

2 languages of the Tribunal.

3 So, I take it that the Defence will respond on short notice on the

4 motion.

5 MR. IERACE: The Prosecution will, Mr. President, and might I

6 express my concern as to what happened with the initial handing over of

7 the Hungarian version. We also take it seriously.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

9 MR. IERACE: And we will make some enquiries on the issue which

10 Mr. Piletta-Zanin has just raised. Thank you.

11 Mr. President, whilst the witness is being brought in, might I

12 have access to some exhibits. I have given notice of them. I would be

13 grateful if I could simply have access to them to save time now. Thank

14 you.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, and Madam Usher, could you please

16 assist Mr. Ierace. Then, Madam Usher, would you please escort

17 Mr. Karavelic into the courtroom.

18 [The witness entered court]

19 WITNESS: VAHID KARAVELIC [Resumed]

20 [Witness answered through interpreter]

21 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning. Mr. Karavelic, may I remind you that

22 you are still bound by the solemn declaration you gave at the beginning of

23 your testimony. Please be seated. Please be seated.

24 Mr. Ierace, please proceed.

25 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President. Might the witness again be

1 shown Exhibit P3728, that is, the maps.

2 Examined by Mr. Ierace: [Continued]

3 Q. Good morning, General. Will you please go to incident 21, that

4 is, the map marked "Incident 21."

5 I think you have placed that map on the ELMO. Have you made

6 changes to that map consistent with changes that you made to map number

7 13? In other words, you have moved the dark green line further east. Is

8 that correct?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Have you made any other changes to that map?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Please go to the next map on which you have made changes. Is

13 that map number 23?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. I take it you made no changes to map number 22. Is that correct?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Please point to the changes you made on map 23.

18 A. [Indicates]

19 Q. Are they similar to the changes you made on maps 13 and 21?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Have you made any other changes on that map?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Please go to the next map. What map is this, what number?

24 Perhaps you can move the map to the right so we can see the number, and

25 up.

1 A. 24.

2 Q. All right. Yes, I see that. Please point to the changes you have

3 made.

4 A. [Indicates]

5 Q. Have you moved part of the dark green line or the light green

6 line?

7 A. A light green line.

8 Q. Indeed on that map, is there only a light green line?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Effectively, have you moved the confrontation line, that is, part

11 of the confrontation line from the northern side of the Miljacka river to

12 the southern side?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And have you passed the line between two buildings which appear in

15 a box marked "36" on the map?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Are there any other changes to that map?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Would you please go to the next map to which you have made

20 changes.

21 JUDGE ORIE: May I just ask you, Mr. Ierace, if we compare map

22 number 24 with map number 5, it could be that that is due to the time

23 frame, but on map 5, we see dark green lines as well where there are no

24 dark green lines on 24. Could you please clarify that issue.

25 MR. IERACE: Yes, Mr. President.

1 Q. Would you please return to map number 5 and place that on the

2 ELMO. Does map number 5 -- I withdraw that.

3 On map number 5, you changed the position of part of the light

4 green line. Is that correct?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And comparing that change to the change you made on map 24, the

7 position is approximately - not exactly, but approximately - the same. Is

8 that correct?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Map number 5 does show a dark green line. Is the -- given your

11 evidence in relation to map number 5, I take it the dark green line is

12 correctly positioned on map number 5. Is that correct?

13 A. I don't think that it is.

14 Q. In that case, would you please change -- make the appropriate

15 changes to the position of the dark green line on map number 5.

16 A. [Marks]

17 Q. Now, map number 5 relates to June of 1993, and map number 24

18 relates to a period of time 12 months later, that is, June 1994. Were

19 there any changes to that part of the confrontation lines between June

20 1993 and June 1994?

21 A. I don't think there were.

22 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, that being the case, clearly there

23 should be a dark green line on map number 24, and in due course I will

24 invite the Trial Chamber to assume that the dark green line on map number

25 5 should apply to map number 24 as well.

1 Q. Would you please now go to the next map --

2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Your Honour, since we are all

5 here, perhaps it would be better if the witness did that himself and if he

6 could mark that line on the map so that we would know that this is a line

7 that he marked by his own hand and that this wasn't done by someone else.

8 I think that this would be logical.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but I think the witness testified that there was

10 no change. But let me just ask him.

11 If you would look at map number 24 and if you would draw a dark

12 green line, if you would have the instrument to do so, would you draw it

13 the same as the corrected dark green line on map number 5?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So, therefore, could you please then do that on

16 map number 24.

17 THE WITNESS: [Marks]

18 JUDGE ORIE: Is the witness using a black marker? Blue. That's

19 okay. Thank you.

20 Please proceed, Mr. Ierace.

21 MR. IERACE:

22 Q. Sir, on map number 24, just beneath the red circle, we see the

23 word in English, "cemetery." It is shown by a white area. Yes, you now

24 point to that area. Do you know what cemetery that was, and indeed, of

25 course, is?

1 A. It is the Jewish cemetery.

2 Q. Now, do you know a place in Sarajevo known as Hero Square?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Does Hero Square appear on this map or not?

5 A. No.

6 Q. As we go through the remainder of the maps, if you see it, would

7 you please tell us. Please go to the next map on which you made changes.

8 You are now on map number 26. Have you made changes similar to

9 those made on maps of the same area, namely, have you moved the dark green

10 line further to the east?

11 A. Yes.

12 MR. IERACE: I think for the record --

13 JUDGE ORIE: 25, can we have a -- no changes on 25 or? I then

14 missed that. That is the same as -- yes, I see. It is the same as on 26.

15 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I think in fact we did skip 25

16 inadvertently.

17 Q. Would you please go back to map 25. On both maps 25 and 26, have

18 you made the same changes that you made to maps 13 and 21?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Did you make any changes to map 27?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Would you please point to the change or changes.

23 A. It is this change here when we are talking about the Strojorad

24 facility. And on this map here, we have that square that I am indicating

25 now.

1 Q. We will come to the square in a minute.

2 MR. IERACE: Excuse me, Mr. President.

3 Q. Is the change that you made on map 27 the same as the change you

4 made on map 10 and others? In other words, you have made the same change

5 earlier. Is that correct?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Now, would you please point to the position of Hero Square.

8 A. [Indicates]

9 Q. Would you please place a circle, with a blue pen, around the

10 square.

11 A. [Marks]

12 Q. At any stage between September 1992 and August 1994, did the 1st

13 Corps have any facilities such as headquarters or armaments in Hero

14 Square?

15 A. I think that there was a company command there and a part of the

16 battalion command during that entire period.

17 Q. Do you know in which building or buildings those headquarters

18 were?

19 A. In one of these buildings, on the ground floor or in the basement,

20 but I am not able to point out the building precisely.

21 Q. How many floors approximately, if you do not know exactly, did

22 that building have?

23 A. The buildings are different but on average, it would be a building

24 of 10 to 15 floors.

25 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, might the witness now be shown -- I

1 withdraw that. Perhaps before I go to the remaining maps, Mr. President,

2 there was an issue which came up yesterday. Would this be a convenient

3 time to deal with that issue? I am happy to approach it in a different

4 way. It involved yesterday --

5 JUDGE ORIE: I think I do understand what you mean. Would it be

6 suitable to discuss the matter in the presence of the witness or -- I

7 mean, would it be appropriate?

8 MR. IERACE: What I have in mind is to ask a question which

9 involves a different approach, and if that is objectionable, then, of

10 course, we could discuss it in the absence of the witness, in order to

11 save time.

12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, in order to

13 save time, the Defence is not sure whether we understood. Is this about

14 the claim stated by the Prosecutor, Mr. Ierace, yesterday about the

15 perception of the geometry of what can be applied? Is this what we are

16 talking about?

17 JUDGE ORIE: I would prefer the witness not to be present if Mr.

18 Ierace, for the first time, formulates his question. May I ask Madam

19 Usher to escort the witness out of the courtroom just for a very short

20 time, I take it.

21 [The witness stands down]

22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, what question did you have in mind?

23 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, the subject of the next series of

24 questions is the witness's knowledge of a notorious source of sniping fire

25 in the area of Rajlovac.

1 JUDGE ORIE: Could we do it without using a map, indicating --

2 MR. IERACE: Yes, that is what I had in mind.

3 JUDGE ORIE: So maps will not be used where the answer to the

4 question is indicated.

5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I agree. But

6 this witness had the opportunity of seeing the maps. He was able to

7 remain here yesterday for 20 minutes, looking at them, and then there were

8 these large triangles or rectangles in red marker regarding the direction

9 of -- direction of sniper fire. It seems to me that he was already told

10 what this is all about. So he had a lot of time to look at it. It is a

11 little late. It should have been asked before he was asked to look at the

12 maps. So, really, this is something that is unacceptable by the Defence.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Ierace, are you going to ask a question

14 about a notorious sniper position that is indicated on one of the maps

15 that the witness has seen?

16 MR. IERACE: Yes, Mr. President.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

18 MR. IERACE: Map number 16 and 17.

19 [Trial Chamber confers]

20 MR. IERACE: I will not take the witness to the map.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I do understand that, but, Mr. Ierace, the

22 Chamber has just conferred. If you ask the witness to go in detail

23 through maps, indicating sniper spots, although you used the map for other

24 reasons, the Chamber is not going to allow you to ask any question where

25 you expect that the witness would have to locate something which was

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1 clearly indicated on the maps with the explanation of what it would be.

2 So there is no problem in asking about the notorious sniper spot, but not

3 those indicated on the map. Then you should have followed the other way

4 and first asked about, without using the maps, but you can't give a

5 witness a map with full detailed information of what you are going to ask

6 him later on about.

7 MR. IERACE: In that case, I won't take it any further, Mr.

8 President.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then, Madam Usher, could you please escort the

10 witness into the courtroom.

11 I take it that you meant on this subject, Mr. Ierace, yes.

12 [The witness entered court]

13 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Ierace.

14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I believe that

15 while the witness was out, he took his briefcase, and returned with his

16 briefcase. This is just to make sure that he did not consult any

17 documents in the meantime.

18 JUDGE ORIE: I don't know whether that would be forbidden, but, I

19 mean, if he spends overnight in his hotel room, he, I think, could consult

20 as such whatever documents he has. But I will ask him, but I take it --

21 Mr. Karavelic, I take it that you took your suitcase and just in order not

22 to lose it, but if you have consulted any documents, would you please tell

23 us, when you were out of the courtroom.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I did not look in my briefcase,

25 and you can check to see, because there is nothing of the documents in the

1 briefcase itself.

2 JUDGE ORIE: I always take proper care of my briefcase as well, I

3 can tell you. Please proceed, Mr. Ierace.

4 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President. In view of that last

5 ruling, I might also return the exhibits that I had earlier.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

7 MR. IERACE: Might the witness now be shown Exhibit P3727.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Do we have it?

9 MR. IERACE: I am sorry, Mr. President. No. We will distribute

10 those now. I think the Defence has a set.

11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I believe so. We will check.

12 Thank you. No. Is this a map, Mr. Ierace -- or rather, Mr. President?

13 JUDGE ORIE: I don't know yet what it is.

14 MR. IERACE: To assist my learned colleagues, in the top

15 right-hand corner, the number on the first map is 4014.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Ierace, having had a very quick look at the

17 map, I am aware -- could you please wait for one second, Madam Usher.

18 Would you please take it. Just on the theoretical level, I am aware that

19 you might run a similar risk as you did before. I just want you to

20 clearly make up your mind on whether you would put yourself in a position

21 that you couldn't ask certain questions not after you have shown documents

22 to a witness. So I just want you to -- of course I do not know what

23 questions you have in mind, but please be aware that a similar situation

24 might arise.

25 MR. IERACE: I understand your point, Mr. President. Would you

1 allow me just a minute.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

3 [Prosecution counsel confer]

4 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, there are no anticipated questions, I

5 think, that would revisit that same problem. Certainly not on the part of

6 the Prosecution.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

8 MR. IERACE: So perhaps --

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, then the document may be put on the ELMO for the

10 witness.

11 MR. IERACE:

12 Q. Now in a similar fashion, General, would you look at the line that

13 -- now I mean the green line.

14 MR. IERACE: Because of the scale, Mr. President, we do not have

15 separate confrontation lines.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

17 MR. IERACE: Excuse me.

18 [Prosecution counsel confer]

19 MR. IERACE:

20 Q. And can you tell us whether the position of the green line

21 correctly indicates the confrontation line on this map --

22 MR. IERACE: Excuse me, Mr. President.

23 [Prosecution counsel confer]

24 Q. -- for June 1993.

25 A. I think it is just these two facilities here. This is when the

1 lines stabilised and they remained more or less the same until the end.

2 Q. Do you indicate a similar change to ones you made on the earlier

3 maps for the same area? Please take the blue pen and correct the line.

4 Thank you.

5 A. [Marks]

6 Q. Would you now move to the next map and advise us of the accuracy

7 or otherwise of the confrontation line marked in green for July 1993.

8 A. I could make a correction of the line here.

9 Q. Indeed, would that be similar to the correction that you made on

10 earlier maps of the same area?

11 MR. IERACE: For the benefit of the Trial Chamber, maps 16 and

12 17.

13 Q. Please make that change.

14 A. [Marks]

15 Q. All right. Please move to the next map.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, could you please take the witness back to

17 the previous map.

18 MR. IERACE: Yes.

19 JUDGE ORIE: And perhaps first look at his corrections.

20 MR. IERACE: Excuse me, Mr. President.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Is this, when I compare this with --

22 MR. IERACE: Map 6 was one of them.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, map 6. It is my recollection of map 6 that the

24 dark green line would not be to the left of the two structures but would

25 go through the two structures, to the right of the --

1 MR. IERACE: Mr. President --

2 JUDGE ORIE: -- the light green line and here, we look -- but the

3 whole front line now moved to -- I would say to the left of the four

4 buildings where, on map 6, it is still in between.

5 MR. IERACE: Well, Mr. President, as best I can see on the screen,

6 it seems to go over the top of the two buildings to the left of the

7 parallel buildings.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Which is not the same as we see on map 6.

9 MR. IERACE: Excuse me, Mr. President. There is a difference in

10 scale. If one looks at map 6, of course the light green line was between

11 the buildings, the dark green line to the right. I don't require that

12 degree of precision in this map. But I am happy for --

13 JUDGE ORIE: The problem is that the left -- on map 6, the left

14 two buildings are, I would say, within the BiH positions, whatever the

15 case may be. I mean, clearly they are within these positions, and that is

16 not clear any more.

17 MR. IERACE: I will clarify, Mr. President.

18 Might the witness be shown -- please leave the present maps with

19 the witness. Might the witness also be shown Exhibit P3728, in

20 particular, map 6. On the top right-hand corner, numbers 3847 appear.

21 Q. General, please compare the changes you have made to map 6 and the

22 earlier map which is still on the ELMO, or was a minute ago. Do you

23 intend there to be any difference in the position of the front lines,

24 confrontation line?

25 A. I don't think there is any difference and perhaps it would have

1 been better that I didn't make any changes in this map.

2 Q. When you say "this map," do you mean map number 6 or do you mean

3 the other map which has a --

4 A. I mean this map.

5 Q. And for the record, that is map marked 1A, 1B.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

7 MR. IERACE:

8 Q. So are you saying that map 6 correctly reflects your memory of the

9 position of the front line as of July 1993?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. June 1993, the same?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Now, would you please go to --

14 MR. IERACE: First of all, Mr. President, might 3728 be returned,

15 that is map number 6.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

17 MR. IERACE:

18 Q. General, would you please now move to the second map, that is the

19 map which has a 4013 in the top right-hand corner.

20 JUDGE ORIE: We dealt with that. You wanted to move to the next

21 one when I asked you to go to the previous one.

22 MR. IERACE:

23 Q. I am sorry, General. Would you please now go to the map which has

24 the 4012 in the top right-hand corner. On this map, having regard to the

25 scale, we see a very large part of Sarajevo. Would you take your time to

1 check the confrontation line in terms of its accuracy or otherwise as of

2 January 1994.

3 If I could assist you further with the request, would you please

4 assume that the green line indicates the forward line of the 1st Corps.

5 A. May I mark in the changes?

6 Q. Yes, please do.

7 A. This would be the change.

8 Q. Please go to the next map.

9 MR. IERACE: Perhaps you could leave that one on the ELMO for a

10 moment. Thank you.

11 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: It is okay now.

12 MR. IERACE:

13 Q. Please now go to the next map, which has the number 4011 in the

14 top right-hand corner, and would you please check the accuracy of the

15 green line indicating the forward line or front line for the 1st Corps as

16 of February 1994.

17 A. May I make the changes?

18 Q. Yes.

19 A. [Marks]

20 Q. All right. Just leave it there for a moment.

21 Please now go to the last map, and that map has the number 4010 in

22 the top right-hand corner. Please make any necessary changes to the

23 indicated -- excuse me.

24 [Prosecution counsel confer]

25 MR. IERACE:

1 Q. Please make any changes necessary to the indicated forward line of

2 the 1st Corps as of February 1994.

3 A. There is a change here, however, there are no significant

4 facilities along the rest of the line. So, generally, I think that this

5 -- this would be the line.

6 Q. And indeed is the change that you have made consistent with the

7 changes you made to three earlier maps in respect of the building you

8 described as one which was uncompleted in its construction before the war?

9 A. Yes.

10 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, for the record, that is maps 4, 14 and

11 9. Might that exhibit be returned.

12 [Prosecution counsel confer]

13 MR. IERACE:

14 Q. Now, General, in carrying out that exercise, we have effectively

15 heard your evidence in relation to the positions of the confrontation

16 lines in the area of the airport. And yesterday you indicated to us on a

17 map the position of a tunnel under the airport.

18 When did that tunnel start operating?

19 A. August 1st, 1993.

20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, may I have your

23 permission? In order that we are all able to follow what this is about

24 perhaps we should ask Mr. Ierace if the map that we have in relation to

25 incident 18 is an enlarged map 4010 which we saw a little while ago. So

1 map number 8, is that only an enlarged version of the map that we looked

2 at a little while ago which is numbered 4010?

3 I am asking a technical question in order to save time because if

4 that is so, then something is not quite right. May the Prosecution give

5 us an answer to this, please.

6 Mr. President, if you allow me, we would just like to save time,

7 so I would just like to make a remark.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the question is

10 as follows: Is map number 2, which the witness saw a little while ago, is

11 that a technical enlargement of the map that we saw a little while ago,

12 which was numbered 10? So is it just an enlarged copy?

13 MR. IERACE: The English --

14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Excuse me, Mr. President.

15 That is my question. And if this is so, we can see that the lines are

16 indicated differently and the title that we can read --

17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, of course it is not the same. On

18 map 8, we find dark green lines and light green lines, while on 4010, we

19 find only one line. So it certainly is not a magnified copy of that map.

20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I wasn't

21 speaking about the map that had information added to it, but about the map

22 in itself. I am talking about the basic map. So I don't know whether we

23 can be provided with this information or not.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, these are different cards. If, I,

25 for example, may draw your attention to the word "Grdonj," on one map you

1 find an indication what I take it to be the 8th and on the other one we

2 find not.

3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, it is there and

4 the scale is the same, so it seems to me that this could be a photo

5 enlargement. So on the map, on the line, there is an expression "seven

6 woods" which is right below, and also a structure which resembles --

7 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]... so I am sorry for

8 confusing. Yes.

9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] The scale is the same, Mr.

10 President. So I think this is an enlargement, and if this is so, we need

11 to know this. So is this an enlarged map, and if it is so, I would just

12 like to state that the light green line from map 8, the BH line, passes

13 through a very different place from the line which can be seen on map

14 number 5. Because above the words "seven woods" on map 8 -- on map 5,

15 this is above and on map 8, it is below, this expression "seven woods."

16 So we need to know a little more. So I apologise, but I had to intervene

17 because I would like to know, in the technical sense, which map this is,

18 whether it is enlarged or not. And if that is so, then we would like to

19 know why these differences are taking place.

20 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]... I take it it is?

21 [Trial Chamber confers]

22 JUDGE ORIE: Let me just see whether --

23 [Trial Chamber confers]

24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, is the understanding of the Chamber right

25 that map 4010 is the same map which we find enlarged as map on which

1 figures number 8, and that the confrontation lines are roughly drawn not

2 making any distinction between BiH front lines and Serbian, but somewhere

3 in between?

4 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, in answer to the first part of your

5 question, it is the same map if I can exclude from that answer the

6 position of the confrontation lines. This is an electronic map.

7 Effectively, a computerised map, which one is able to reproduce in

8 different scales.

9 As to the second part of your question, Mr. President, the -- as

10 indicated on map 5, the green line represents the position of the front

11 lines, which is why I effectively corrected my first proposition to the

12 witness and throughout the maps described the line as the 1st Corps front

13 line.

14 Now, I think I see the concern of my learned colleague, and I will

15 make some enquiries about that, but perhaps the appropriate thing to do is

16 to reshow the maps to the witness and invite his observations, if any.

17 Naturally, the scale of map 5, that is 4010, is relatively large

18 compared to map 8, and that might have led to some misunderstanding. But

19 in any event, I am happy to do it now while it is fresh in everyone's

20 mind. So if there is no further questions, Mr. President, if that is

21 convenient?

22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, once again, in

23 order to avoid a situation where we would have incorrect documents, I

24 think that the technical data that I have, and I did learn to read a map a

25 while ago, so this is the same. So we have 12.500 on this enlarged map

1 and we have the same scale on this other map. So there is a technical

2 issue here where we have scale indications which are seemingly incorrect.

3 If we are reproducing something or enlarging something, then we need to

4 say, "Don't pay attention to the scale," or we should be provided with the

5 true scale. So this is the job of the Prosecution, not our job, so

6 something is perhaps incorrect, something is wrong.

7 JUDGE ORIE: This issue has been raised before. The parties have

8 been invited to bring one map of which the scale was incontested, and of

9 course, if you enlarge maps, the Chamber is well aware that the scale will

10 not be valid any more. And I think we verified that on one or two maps,

11 so that the Chamber is fully capable of extrapolating whatever needs to be

12 extrapolated.

13 Then, of course, apart from the scale, we do see that on map 4010

14 the confrontation lines are, I would say, more global and sometimes they

15 seem to coincide with Serbian lines and others places a bit more

16 with BiH lines. Is the Defence of the opinion that, having regard to the

17 fact that we have detailed information on the other maps, that it should

18 be corrected as well on 4010 or could we just accept that this is a rather

19 global approach where we find a more precise approach in the other maps?

20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I will consult with my

21 colleagues. Give me just one moment. Thank you.

22 [Defence counsel confer]

23 [Trial Chamber confers]

24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] If this is possible, Mr.

25 President, we would like the witness to be more specific about map 4010

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1 and to also mark all the changes or indications which would be required.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, would you please ask the witness to

3 indicate the difference between 4010 and the other maps. And the Chamber

4 thinks it confusing if we would try to make other markings on the big map;

5 if the witness would have indicated precise front line positions at the

6 enlarged maps.

7 Please proceed.

8 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, with that in mind, might the witness

9 be shown Exhibit 3727, in particular, map 4010; and Exhibit 3728, in

10 particular, map number 8.

11 Q. General, I think you have in front of you at the moment the last

12 map that you were shown, that is, 4010. Is that correct?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Look now, please, when it is given to you, to a map which shows in

15 greater detail an aspect of map 4010 and compare them, please.

16 Please do not mark anything, but simply take your time to compare

17 them and let us know when you have identified the relevant part on map

18 4010 of the area covered in map 8. Please do not mark anything.

19 A. This line should go below, under number 9056, because the line of

20 defence is here, the line of defence of Sarajevo.

21 Q. All right. Now, in terms of understanding why you did not pick

22 that up earlier, if you look at map 8, you see a number of roads indicated

23 in yellow.

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Were they of any assistance to you in determining the positions of

1 the confrontation lines on that map? If you look at the other map,

2 please, map 8.

3 A. Yes, I have it.

4 Q. All right. Does that map show a lot of roads which don't appear

5 on the larger map, that is 4010?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. In terms of the relevant part of the larger map, is there an

8 absence of much detail?

9 A. That's right.

10 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, given the directive to not mark the

11 larger map, does that suffice?

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Let me ask you, Mr. Karavelic, if you look at

13 the map 4010 where only one confrontation line or front line is given, in

14 your view, is that line indicating approximately a combination of the

15 split-up confrontation lines you find in more detail on map 8?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This line on map 4010 indicates the

17 line of defence, of the defenders of Sarajevo.

18 JUDGE ORIE: The defence. Would that be, in your view, the same

19 as the light green line on map 8?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. I think that's it, but on this

21 map, 4010, the line should go under Trg 906.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but if I then may ask your attention for other

23 details. For example, if you look at map 8, the light green line goes

24 through Sedam Suma and through this area below the words "Sedam Suma,"

25 where on the 4010 map, the line is clearly above the words "Sedam Suma."

1 Yes?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's what I said. I said

3 that it would need to be placed a little more to the south and then it

4 would come to that point.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Not only at 905, I think it is, where it says

6 "Grdonj," but the whole line should be a lit lower there. But on many

7 other instances, it very much looks as if the line on 4010 is more

8 corresponding with the dark green lines than with the light green lines,

9 if I compare the two maps. For example, there were -- we have the words

10 -- let me just try to find it.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If you permit me.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If you permit me to say, there is a

14 part here which absolutely 100 per cent coincides here to the right from

15 Trg point 906. There is a rectangle of streets where -- and this part is

16 absolutely identical on both maps.

17 JUDGE ORIE: I do agree with you, yes. I think it was a mistake I

18 made. So you say that the only change that should be made is that, in the

19 area of Sedam Suma, the line should be in accordance with the light green

20 line as we find it on map 8. Is that correct?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

22 JUDGE ORIE: We are talking about the same time or has this line

23 changed or -- Mr. Karavelic?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Thank you.

1 Please proceed, Mr. Ierace. Perhaps it is time for the break. We

2 will adjourn until 11.00.

3 --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.

4 --- On resuming at 11.11 a.m.

5 JUDGE ORIE: I hope the parties will accept that the Chamber spent

6 not only the break but even the last 10 minutes on issues concerning this

7 case and, unfortunately, you had to wait for 10 additional minutes.

8 Mr. Ierace, would you please proceed.

9 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, perhaps the two exhibits in front of

10 the witness might be returned.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

12 MR. IERACE:

13 Q. General, are you aware whether civilians or BH armed forces

14 personnel, or both, crossed the airport at night between September 1992

15 and the operation of the tunnel under the airport?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Was there both civilians and armed forces personnel who did that?

18 A. At the time of year 1992, until the tunnel under the airport was

19 built, the crossing, or rather, running across the airport runway, 99 per

20 cent of the people who did that were civilians.

21 Q. In relation to the other 1 per cent, the armed forces personnel,

22 I take it, crossed the runway at night?

23 A. There were individual examples of command staff who did that.

24 Q. In relation to the civilians, were there attempts by the BH

25 authorities to stop them or some of them from leaving the city?

1 A. I think it is not about -- it wasn't about stopping the people,

2 preventing them from leaving the city, it was more about preventing the

3 civilians from crossing the runway because of the casualties that were

4 sustained on the runway.

5 Q. Which forces or force was responsible for civilian casualties on

6 the airport at night?

7 A. Troops of the Sarajevo Romanija Corps, which kept lines on both

8 sides of the airport runway; on the beginning and the other end of the

9 airport runway.

10 Q. Was it in the interests of the BH authorities to prevent civilians

11 from leaving the city in 1992, 1993, and 1994?

12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] This question should perhaps

15 be divided as to what we already know and what I do not wish to bring up

16 here before the witness. The period seems to me quite large just to be

17 included in one question. Thank you.

18 JUDGE ORIE: If that is so, you can ask for further specification.

19 The question as such is not inadmissible.

20 Please proceed, Mr. Ierace.

21 MR. IERACE:

22 Q. General, could you please respond to that question.

23 A. I was never asked that I should prevent the people from leaving

24 out -- leaving the city at any price, however, there was a school of

25 thought among the people, among some people, that if it was allowed that

1 all the civilians population should leave the city, or the majority leave

2 -- would leave the city, then the city itself would fall.

3 Q. If that had happened, that is, that all the civilians or the

4 majority of the civilians were either permitted to leave the city or

5 indeed required to leave the city, was there anywhere they could go?

6 A. No.

7 Q. What was the population of the city, say, in mid-1993?

8 A. I don't know the exact number. I think that the figures go from

9 250.000 to 350.000.

10 Q. Did the civilian population of the city, say in mid-1993, include

11 refugees from other areas of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. You told us that you received training in the JNA in the early

14 years of your military career. What was the -- was there any similarity

15 or connection between the doctrine of the JNA and the military doctrine

16 which applied to the 1st Corps?

17 A. I didn't understand the question.

18 Q. Was the 1st Corps, when formed and during the war, based on JNA

19 doctrine or on some other doctrine or on no other doctrine?

20 A. Throughout 1992, I could say --

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. We would

23 have wanted to know which 1st Corps are we talking about, because there

24 were two 1st Corps.

25 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I would have thought that was

1 abundantly clear from the examination-in-chief so far.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please proceed, Mr. Ierace. I think there

3 could be no confusion, Mr. Piletta-Zanin. So perhaps you could consider

4 next time to refrain from interventions when there is no risk of any

5 confusion.

6 MR. IERACE:

7 Q. I will rephrase the question.

8 Was the doctrine of the 1st Corps based on JNA doctrine in terms

9 of its structure, its disciplinary proceedings and so on?

10 A. Throughout 1992, most of 1993, yes.

11 Q. Now, as corps commander, under the JNA doctrine, if you wished to

12 discipline a subordinate, what options did you have available to you?

13 What action could you take under that doctrine?

14 A. As a corps commander, I had the possibility of using discipline

15 punishment which will include up to 30 days in detention. Then I had the

16 possibility of sending the offenders, that is, those who committed these

17 offences, possibility of sending them to the discipline -- court of

18 discipline. That is, I had the possibility of sending them away, of this

19 offender, from their establishment duty.

20 Q. You told us that you became the corps commander, I think you said

21 effectively from August 1993. Is that correct?

22 A. The order was written, I think, on the 20th of July 1993 and I

23 took over the duty only about the end of August or the first days of

24 September 1993.

25 Q. Now, on assuming the position of corps commander, were you aware

1 of certain disciplinary problems with any of your brigades?

2 A. For the most part, yes.

3 Q. Can you tell us which brigades they were.

4 A. More or less serious problems I had with the 9th and 10th Brigade,

5 which were located in Stari Grad, in the Old Town. And with other units,

6 but it is true, a lot fewer problems.

7 Q. In relation to the 9th and 10th Brigades, can you give us some

8 understanding of the nature of those problems that existed when you

9 assumed command of the corps? What type of problems?

10 A. This was about refusing to obey orders, by the commander of the

11 10th Brigade and the deputy commander of the 9th Motorised Brigade, and

12 also them not carrying out orders by the commanders and also not following

13 the guidelines and the instructions given by the corps commander and by

14 the corps command.

15 Q. How important did you think it to obtain authority to exert your

16 authority over those brigades?

17 A. I believe this to be a very important matter. Without it, it is

18 absurd doing anything else as a corps commander.

19 Q. What steps did you take at first, if any, to exert your authority,

20 to bring them into line? I don't want a lot of detail, we don't have much

21 time, but if you could tell us the type of actions, if any, that you took.

22 A. This problem dated probably from the spring of 1993. After taking

23 over the duty of the commander of the 1st Corps of the arm of BH, that

24 very same moment I asked verbally and in writing, I asked the commander of

25 the Main Staff and the Presidency of Bosnia-Herzegovina that I should tidy

1 up the situation in the corps and to bring them into a normal situation,

2 and that the two commanders of the brigades should be subordinate to my

3 commands, to my orders. It was only after about a month or perhaps month

4 and a half that there was political agreement, and I was given the

5 possibility to even use armed force to do this, which is what I did on the

6 26th and 27th of October, 1993 when the commander of the 10th Mountain

7 Brigade was executed, and a number of people, some 100 or several hundreds

8 of people were detained, and I think about 200 people or 100 people were

9 tried.

10 Q. Now you told us yesterday that your training included training in

11 the military academy in Belgrade. Is that correct?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. I think you said you did some additional training. I think you

14 used the words, "officer training," is that correct, in the JNA?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Did any of your training include training as to the requirements

17 of an officer, the courses to be taken, the strategies to be adopted by an

18 officer if that officer has insubordinate subordinates, in other words,

19 subordinates who will not follow orders?

20 A. Every officer who is educated through a training programme in the

21 JNA, in most of the literature and the books that are in the curriculum,

22 it is said that the Geneva Conventions, among others, should be respected.

23 And through the training and throughout the career of any officer, it is

24 so stressed, it is underlined how important it is to protect and defend

25 civilians in any conflict.

1 Q. I appreciate that. But did your training include what obligations

2 you have to bring subordinates who are out of control, so as to speak,

3 into line?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Did the training and education include the options available to a

6 general, if the general is unable to exert discipline over subordinates

7 who are engaged in unlawful acts or refusing to follow orders?

8 A. According to the rules of the JNA, a commander - that is, if

9 commander is a general - must ensure preconditions within his area of

10 responsibility in relation to the defence, and he has to put everything

11 under his control, under his command. Otherwise, there is a possibility

12 of him being taken off his duty, his post.

13 Q. If you had failed to bring the 9th and 10th Brigades under your

14 command and control, even after the use of force, what remaining option or

15 options would you have had as the corps commander?

16 A. The only option I had left was to leave my post, leave my duty,

17 which is what I even suggested to my commander-in-chief and to the

18 Presidency of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

19 Q. You told us that the papers appointing you as corps commander were

20 dated late July and that you assumed the post in early August and that you

21 attempted peacefully to bring them under your control, and finally, you

22 used force against the aberrant brigades. When did the operation which

23 involved the use of force against them conclude?

24 A. On the 27th of October, in the evening.

25 Q. Is that 1993?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Now, during your period as deputy commander and later commander of

3 the 1st Corps, did you become aware of allegations that mortars were being

4 fired from the grounds of Kosevo Hospital and from the precinct of the

5 United Nations field headquarters at the PTT building?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Did you make any enquiries as to whether any units or forces of

8 the 1st Corps were responsible for that?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Were forces or units of the 1st Corps responsible for that?

11 A. This could not be officially confirmed ever by UNPROFOR, nor was I

12 able, in the course of my investigations, ever to come to that conclusion.

13 Q. Did -- to be clear on this, did you ever order or do you know

14 whether anyone else in the 1st Corps ever ordered that such activities

15 take place?

16 A. I responsibility state no.

17 MR. IERACE: Excuse me, Mr. President.

18 [Prosecution counsel confer]

19 MR. IERACE:

20 Q. Finally, General, in relation to cars, that is private cars in

21 Sarajevo, firstly, in 1992, that is between September and December 1992,

22 did you observe civilians to be driving their cars in the city?

23 A. Yes. Yes.

24 Q. In 1993, at some stage -- I withdraw that.

25 Did that continue throughout 1993 or not?

1 A. This continued during the entire period from 1992 to 1995, but as

2 time went on, there were fewer and fewer vehicles, and, therefore, the

3 civilians moved around much less.

4 Q. From where did the civilians, especially as the war wore on,

5 developed, obtain fuel for their private vehicles?

6 A. The government of Bosnia-Herzegovina had the fuel and the biggest

7 user, the 1st Corps, or the army, the headquarters of the Army of

8 Bosnia-Herzegovina, also the MUP, special purpose industries and possibly

9 some other units that used the fuel. They were the biggest users. The

10 civilian population could get fuel by buying it across from the line of

11 separation, and in various other ways within the city itself.

12 Q. When you say, "by buying it across the line of separation," do you

13 mean buying it from territory controlled by the Serb forces or not?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Was that an officially sanctioned means of obtaining fuel or was

16 that part of what is sometimes called a "black market"?

17 A. Yes, that was something that was sanctioned, but at the same time,

18 officially or unofficially, there was a black market.

19 Q. In Sarajevo I think there was a predominance of Volkswagen Golf

20 motor vehicles. Is that correct?

21 JUDGE ORIE: May I just interfere. Could the word "sanctioning"

22 create any confusion?

23 MR. IERACE: Yes, perhaps, Mr. President --

24 JUDGE ORIE: Would you please clarify that.

25 MR. IERACE:

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1 Q. General, did the BH authorities, that is the government, approve

2 civilians in the city trading with individuals on the territory controlled

3 by the Serb forces? In other words, did the government approve Sarajevans

4 trading across the confrontation lines?

5 A. According to the instructions that I received, no.

6 Q. All right. Now, was the most popular car in the city the Golf?

7 A. Yes, it was the most popular and it was the most numerous

8 vehicle.

9 Q. Is still is, is that correct? There were Golfs everywhere?

10 A. Yes, yes, that is still the case.

11 Q. Did the army also use Golfs, apart from other vehicles?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. What fuels were the Golfs able to operate on?

14 A. In 1993, we were in the most difficult situation regarding all

15 kinds of issues, but amongst other things also because of fuel. Due to

16 shortages, we used oil from the transformer stations to fuel our vehicles.

17 Q. Just going back to an earlier issue: Up until October 1993 when

18 you brought the 9th and 10th Brigades under your command and control,

19 effective command and control, were you able to enter their area of

20 responsibility?

21 A. You mean after that?

22 Q. Before that.

23 A. During the summer, until the 26th of October 1993, I couldn't nor

24 the commander who was on duty before me, nor anyone from the 1st Corps

25 command was able to do that.

1 Q. What were the names of the two commanders of the brigades?

2 A. The commander of the 10th Mountain Brigade was Musan Topalovic,

3 called Caco, and the deputy commander of the 9th Motorised Brigade was

4 Ramiz Delalic, called Celo.

5 Q. Was the commander of the 10th Mountain Brigade known also as Cace?

6 A. Yes.

7 MR. IERACE: Excuse me, Mr. President.

8 Q. Finally, General, do you know whether General Galic received the

9 same training that you did in the JNA?

10 A. I assume that that is so, yes.

11 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President. Nothing further.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, is the Defence ready to cross-examine

13 the witness?

14 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, with your

15 permission, I will begin with the cross-examination and my colleague will

16 continue.

17 Cross-examined by Ms. Pilipovic:

18 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Karavelic, good day.

19 A. Good day.

20 Q. Mr. Karavelic, can you confirm for us that on the 21st and the

21 27th of November 2001 [sic], you provided a statement to investigators

22 from the Prosecutor's office?

23 A. Yes, I did. I gave one statement.

24 Q. So on the 21st and the 27th of November 2000?

25 A. I don't remember the dates exactly, but it was in the autumn of

1 the year 2000.

2 Q. Can you confirm for us that on the 22nd and the 23rd of October,

3 2001, and the 31st of October and the 2nd of November 2001, you spoke with

4 investigators Hogan and Richard Philipps?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Thank you, Mr. Karavelic.

7 Do you confirm that the statements that I have just mentioned were

8 read to you or you read them and signed them?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Thank you.

11 Mr. Karavelic, yesterday at the beginning of the

12 examination-in-chief, you said that after a brief period you attended the

13 military academy and after citing some information about your career, you

14 said that you deserted from the JNA in December 1991 when you held the

15 rank of captain first class.

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Then, when you had that rank, did you expect to receive a higher

18 rank?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Can you tell us what rank and what was required for you to receive

21 this rank?

22 A. Since the condition to be awarded the rank of major was to take an

23 exam and to spend at least four years as captain first class, so on

24 condition that you also received an official grade of a "particularly

25 exceeds" or "with merit." Since I started to attend the course in 1989

1 for major and I spent four years with the rank of captain first class and

2 in Zenica my brigade commander, Colonel Tomislav Sipcic, once we moved

3 from Ljubljana, in August 1991, I did receive this grade, "exceptionally

4 exceeds."

5 Q. So when you say this grade "exceptionally exceeds," was a certain

6 grade required also when you were taking the major's exam?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Could you tell us the grade which you received for that exam?

9 A. Seven point something. I don't know what the average mark was for

10 that exam. That is not so important. The important thing is to pass the

11 exam.

12 Q. Mr. Karavelic, you said that you passed with a seven, and if the

13 Defence tells you that it was actually a six, would you agree with that,

14 that you received a grade six?

15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Karavelic, I see that you -- yes --

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

17 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]... nodding before

18 and the transcript cannot record any nodding. So your answer is no.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no, I don't agree.

20 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence has a

21 document, a certificate from the high military schools where you can see

22 that Mr. Karavelic graduated with a satisfactory grade, a six.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is the average but there is

24 also a tactical, a work, a thesis. So this is what is really important,

25 the thesis on defence.

1 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. Thank you, Mr. Karavelic.

3 You told us that when you deserted in 1991, that you joined the

4 Patriotic League. Is this true?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Mr. Karavelic, can you tell us when the Patriotic League was

7 formed?

8 A. There are several sources. The most official source, or actually

9 the most official date is the 10th of June 1991, in Sarajevo.

10 Q. The 10th of June 1991, is that the same month when the congress of

11 Muslim intellectuals was held at the militia building?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Was that when you became a member of the Patriotic League?

14 A. No, I didn't even know about it then.

15 Q. As a professional soldier, could you please tell us whether the

16 forming of the Patriotic League was practically the formation of the party

17 army of the SDA political party?

18 A. I don't know what to respond to that question.

19 Q. Were members of the Patriotic League persons who had weapons, who

20 were armed?

21 A. From late 1991 and early 1992, yes.

22 Q. Can you confirm for us that the Patriotic League was a kind of

23 Pan-Islamic paramilitary organisation in the years 1990 and 1991?

24 A. No, it was not.

25 Q. Was that a legitimate military force in 1990 and 1991?

1 A. In view of the overall military and political situation in

2 Yugoslavia, yes.

3 Q. Mr. Karavelic, according to the constitution and the laws that

4 were in force, was not the legitimate military force the JNA, which was

5 comprised by the Yugoslav People's Army and the TO?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. So we will agree that the Patriotic League was a paramilitary

8 organisation.

9 A. No. Because the JNA and the TO had lost this legitimacy that you

10 are talking about.

11 Q. Can you tell us, on the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina, when did

12 the JNA lose this legitimacy?

13 A. The moment when I was in Zenica, in the month of September 1991,

14 where I was the commander of the Motorised A Battalion, which I brought

15 from Ljubljana.

16 Q. Mr. Karavelic, would you agree with me that the JNA -- well, that

17 this is your personal opinion and that, in accordance with the law and the

18 constitution, the JNA was a legitimate military force?

19 A. According to the law and the constitution, yes, on condition that

20 it -- that they are respected by everybody.

21 Q. Mr. Karavelic, can you please tell us when you became a member of

22 the Patriotic League?

23 A. The moment that I left the Yugoslav People's Army, I asked for

24 work. I was looking for a job, and so I happened to at that point join

25 the Patriotic League.

1 Q. Would you agree with me that the Patriotic League in the month of

2 February 1992 had about 60 to 70.000 armed members and this was confirmed

3 at the meeting at Mehurici near Travnik?

4 A. Are you thinking about the entire Bosnia-Herzegovina?

5 Q. Yes.

6 A. It is very difficult to believe that this was the actual number,

7 that the Patriotic League had so many members. If it did, then the

8 outcome of the situation in Bosnia-Herzegovina would have been different.

9 But even if such figures are being talked about, then this would include

10 all possible kinds of weapons, all kinds of hunting weapons, handguns and

11 so on, so perhaps that would bring us to a number which seems quite big.

12 Q. Mr. Karavelic, when I asked you this question --

13 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, having regard to the question and the

14 answer, there is either a translation problem or a misunderstanding on the

15 part of the witness. Either way, some clarification is needed. The

16 question was about, as I understand the translation, membership; the

17 answer was about weaponry.

18 JUDGE ORIE: I think it needs no clarification because the

19 question was about the membership of armed people. I see on page 43, line

20 18, at about 60 to 70.000 armed members. So weaponry is relevant.

21 Please proceed, Ms. Pilipovic.

22 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

23 Q. Mr. Karavelic, when I put this question to you, perhaps I should

24 have asked you first whether you knew that Mr. Sefer Halilovic wrote a

25 book, "Cunning Strategy"?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. So in your time as deputy commander of the 1st Sarajevo Corps,

3 could you please tell us what was the function of Mr. Sefer Halilovic in

4 the BH army?

5 A. From late May and early June 1992, when Sefer became the commander

6 or the chief of the General Staff of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, so

7 the number one man, and he stayed in that post until the spring of 1993.

8 Q. As far as I understood, you said the General Staff. Did you mean

9 the General Staff or the Main Staff?

10 A. Well, it changed names frequently. The Main Staff or the General

11 Staff, but that is what we are talking about.

12 Q. When I put the question to you about the number of the armed

13 members of the Patriotic League, I had in mind the book written by Mr.

14 Sefer Halilovic and this number, this figure, comes from that book.

15 A. So this would then apply from the 6th -- to the 6th or the 7th of

16 February.

17 Q. And what was your post in the Patriotic League when you joined

18 that organisation? Did you receive any kind of special function?

19 A. From mid-January 1992, I was appointed commander or coordinator of

20 the Patriotic League for the Tuzla region.

21 Q. When you say, "commander of the Patriotic League for the Tuzla

22 region," are you saying that you were actually the commander of the Tuzla

23 Territorial Defence?

24 A. Once Bosnia-Herzegovina was recognised as a sovereign state on the

25 6th of April, the Presidency of Bosnia-Herzegovina on the 8th of April

1 re-named the old Territorial Defence into a new Territorial Defence and

2 then I think that on the 10th of April, I was appointed commander of the

3 regional headquarters of Territorial Defence in Tuzla.

4 Q. Mr. Karavelic, in that period, was there a division or did the

5 Territorial Defence in the area of Bosnia-Herzegovina divide? And when I

6 am talking about this division, I am thinking of this in ethnic terms.

7 A. Well, I wouldn't call it a division. I would say that there was a

8 complete privatisation of the Territorial Defence by the JNA.

9 Q. Mr. Karavelic, isn't it true that the division of the TO along

10 ethnic lines did take place and that the SDA party was the one that,

11 through the Patriotic League, appropriated all the TO weapons in places

12 where the Muslims were in a majority?

13 A. No, this did not happen and I cannot agree with that at all.

14 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I respectfully object to, again,

15 double-barreled questions or triple-barreled questions. The last question

16 was in fact two separate questions and it leads to confusion if the

17 witness does not address each one specifically but rather gives a general

18 answer. I don't suggest that it necessarily happened on this occasion,

19 but it does happen. Thank you.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, it is advisable in general to split up. If you

21 ask a confirmation of a certain -- but sometimes it is acceptable, in

22 order to save time, to combine a few issues. But as soon as the witness

23 says that he couldn't confirm it, then you have to split it up anyhow.

24 Please proceed, Ms. Pilipovic.

25 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

1 Q. Mr. Karavelic, you told us that as the commander of the TO of

2 Tuzla region, you were captured on the 22nd of April 1992.

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. I understood that you said that in the period from this 27th of

5 April until the 11th of May, 1992, you were tried. Did I understand you

6 correctly?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Are you saying that there was a trial going on against you?

9 A. I think, yes.

10 Q. Could you tell us whether then in 1992 on the territory of

11 Yugoslavia there were military courts that were active, that were

12 authorised to try army members?

13 A. Do you mean Yugoslavia or Bosnia-Herzegovina?

14 Q. Yugoslavia.

15 A. At the time when I was captured, on the 27th of April when I was

16 captured, the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia brought its constitution,

17 adopted its constitution and legally and formally the dissolution of the

18 former Yugoslavia ended.

19 Q. When you said that you were tried, and I believe that in your

20 statement of the 22nd and 23rd of October you said that you were sentenced

21 to death, that you were sentenced to be executed by being shot. Can you

22 tell us which military court, which court sentenced you to be shot?

23 A. I cannot answer because I had no contacts with anyone except with

24 three colonels. They can answer this question, from Sremska Mitrovica.

25 Q. Could you tell us whether you were sentenced to be shot or not.

1 A. I can say that at the end of the trial, I was asked in a direct

2 question, "How would you like to be executed?" And my answer was, "Just

3 to have the bullet."

4 Q. Mr. Karavelic, during the 12 days that you spent, as you say, in

5 Sremska Mitrovica, the court, the relevant military court, did they

6 actually have trial proceedings ongoing against you?

7 A. I cannot answer that question. Nobody talked to me except in an

8 office three times a day. There were three colonels who were sitting --

9 who were sitting on a bench.

10 Q. Certainly, as a soldier, you know that there is such a thing as

11 military security?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Were you interrogated by the members of military security?

14 A. That may have been members of military security. It could have

15 been a court-martial.

16 Q. But, Mr. Karavelic, then, in 1992, military courts functioned in

17 Yugoslavia and they were the only ones that were authorised, that were

18 competent to hold trials and to bring verdicts for military personnel.

19 A. I cannot answer that question. I do not know what formally the

20 situation was in Yugoslavia, whether it was at war or it wasn't at war,

21 whether there were some war regulations that were adopted or not.

22 Q. If I tell you that Yugoslavia was not at war at the time, and that

23 the military courts functioned normally and worked, would you agree with

24 me?

25 A. I would agree with a legal interpretation by an official expert.

1 Q. If I tell you that there was no trial proceedings going on against

2 you, and that you spoke a falsehood when you said that you were sentenced

3 to death, would you agree with me?

4 A. Again, I didn't say that I was sentenced to death. I just told

5 you what they asked me, and that brings me to think this, because I was

6 told that I would most probably be shot. These three colonels told me

7 that. I -- my intention is not to mislead. If this is not an important

8 question, then we can go to other questions.

9 Q. Mr. Karavelic, you said in your statement that you were sentenced

10 to be shot.

11 A. That was my conclusion.

12 Q. Did you get a sentence?

13 A. No. I was told verbally what I had already told you. Because

14 following this, I was transferred to Belgrade, and then from Belgrade by

15 helicopter to Pale.

16 Q. Can you confirm to us that, considering that the soldiers that

17 were killed in Tuzla at the time, their soldiers of the JNA, could you

18 confirm that you were captured and that you were then transferred to

19 Sremska Mitrovica?

20 A. I was captured, including some officers from my staff. I was not

21 alone. And what the motives were, what the reasons were, that is a

22 slightly larger question.

23 Q. Mr. Karavelic, you will agree with me that there were no trial

24 proceedings conducted against you, that this was a question in

25 investigative procedures and that you were captured as a prisoner of war.

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13 English transcripts.

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1 MR. IERACE: Two objections, Mr. President. Firstly, this is the

2 fourth time the witness is being asked whether or not he was tried; and

3 secondly, this whole issue has now taken I think some 10 minutes and is of

4 no relevance to the issues before the Trial Chamber. Thank you.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, the first objection is sustained. The question

6 has been put several times to the witness and the witness has given

7 answers and it has become quite clear what the difference of view is.

8 Ms. Pilipovic, if you would bring in any new element in this

9 respect, you may put additional questions to the witness. But if it is

10 all about the same, then please proceed to your next subject.

11 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter correction, line 49.16, instead of

12 "captured," it should be "exchanged."

13 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] While the Defence was preparing

14 for the cross-examination of Karavelic, Mr. Karavelic said in his

15 statement that he was sentenced to be shot by execution, executed by

16 shooting and the Defence asked for documents from military court in

17 Belgrade, which was the regular military court, which confirmed that Mr.

18 Karavelic was never detained or was never in detention, that he was never

19 remanded in custody in the military court. That is the reason why the

20 Defence wished for Mr. Karavelic to be precise.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. There is no need. I mean, until now, you have

22 put all the questions in this respect to the witness and we heard his

23 answers. And the point is quite clear, so please proceed.

24 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence would

25 like to provide the certificate of the military court in Belgrade as a

1 Defence exhibit. We have a sufficient number of copies.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

3 THE REGISTRAR: D143.

4 MR. IERACE: Mr. President.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Ierace.

6 MR. IERACE: I would be grateful if my learned colleague could

7 indicate the date on which this document was disclosed to the Defence,

8 pursuant to Rule 67(C).

9 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence was not

10 able to disclose this document in a timely fashion to my learned

11 colleagues, considering that we were in The Hague at the trial. My

12 associates, at my request, managed to get hold of this certificate. This

13 is a certificate which confirms that there were no proceedings conducted

14 against Mr. Karavelic, that he was not detained, and that he was not

15 remanded in custody in Belgrade.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, the question is when it was disclosed.

17 When did you receive the document?

18 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, on the 12th of July.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Well, we are now on the 18th, if I am correct. We

20 have heard several times serious complaints that not documents available

21 have been immediately disclosed to the -- to you as Defence. And you

22 complained when it was the day before, or even the morning. I now see

23 that you have this document for six days. You said on the 12th of July.

24 You would like to respond?

25 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, it was issued in

1 Belgrade on the 12th of July. I did not receive it immediately. That is

2 the problem.

3 JUDGE ORIE: My question to you was: When did you receive the

4 document and your answer, according to the transcript, but it might be a

5 mistake, was, "Your Honour, on the 12th of July." So I took that as a

6 starting point. But whatever could be said about it, certainly during the

7 last break or this morning or yesterday evening, you could have done so.

8 And as you know, we have always taken very seriously if you as Defence,

9 were not properly informed. Let's try to prevent that a similar situation

10 will --

11 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour

12 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]... for the

13 future.

14 Mr. Ierace, very often you responded that the document was very

15 short. This is a very short document. So if you would need more time,

16 please let us know.

17 Please proceed, Ms. Pilipovic.

18 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

19 Q. Mr. Karavelic, on the 11th of May, 1992, when you were exchanged,

20 you said yesterday during the examination-in-chief that you took some time

21 to recuperate. Could you tell us when did you join as active military

22 officer, when did you join the BH army?

23 A. I was exchanged on the 13th of May in Sarajevo in Lukavica, at the

24 petrol station between the airport and Stupska Petlja, and after a short

25 period of recuperation, just by joining and be appointed as the department

1 of the regional staff of the Territorial Defence Staff of Tuzla, that is

2 how I joined the BH army.

3 Q. Could you tell us, when did you arrive in Sarajevo?

4 A. When I was exchanged, on the 13th of May 1992.

5 Q. Are you telling us that then you continued to be military active

6 in Sarajevo?

7 A. After about a month.

8 Q. When you say "after about a month," could you perhaps tell us when

9 and where did you again become an active military officer of the BH army?

10 A. The very same moment I was included in the original staff of the

11 Territorial Defence because I was exchanged upon the request of the

12 members of the Presidency, of BH Presidency, and then Ministry of Defence

13 of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

14 Q. So what you are saying is that from the end of May, you were

15 already active in the Territorial Defence of Sarajevo?

16 A. I would say a little bit later, possibly from mid-June -- from

17 early June.

18 Q. Could you tell us, how was the Territorial Defence in June

19 organised in Sarajevo?

20 A. In accordance -- considering what I did, what I was able to see,

21 what I was able to live through, then the commander of Territorial Defence

22 was Hasan Efendic, although the Presidency of Bosnia-Herzegovina issued

23 decrees on activating and mobilising Territorial Defence. The

24 establishment and the mobilising of Territorial Defence went with great

25 difficulty, happened with great difficulty for the reasons that there were

1 no files, there were no documents, that were taken away because all of the

2 units of the Territorial Defence had been disbanded, were destroyed

3 because of what you said, there was a division along the ethnic lines.

4 And at that time, the main carrier, the main factor has to be said of the

5 defence of Sarajevo was the Territorial Defence, and most of the work was

6 done by the Patriotic League.

7 Q. Mr. Karavelic, are you saying that the Territorial Defence,

8 specifically talking about Sarajevo, was created from members of the

9 Patriotic League?

10 A. The BH army was created from the Territorial Defence and from the

11 Patriotic League, members thereof, but it could be said that at the time

12 of the existence of the Territorial Defence still parallelly, there was

13 the existence of the Patriotic League, although there was a decision of

14 the Presidency of the BH which then the Patriotic League entered the

15 Territorial Defence.

16 Q. Could you tell us whether there were any other units in 1992 that

17 became part of the Territorial Defence apart from the Patriotic League?

18 A. The decision actually says "all armed units"; that is, Green

19 Berets, all other formations, HVO Croatian, Defence Council, and so on.

20 Q. As you said all armed units, you mentioned Green Berets, HVO, and

21 the Patriotic League, that was in 1992. Could you tell us, what other

22 units, specifically in Sarajevo, entered the Territorial Defence?

23 A. Units of the Territorial Defence that were managed to become

24 established in any form, whether partially, only 50 per cent, under 50 per

25 cent, then units of the Patriotic League which then also became units,

1 Green Berets, HVO. I don't know whether you mean anything specific, that

2 is what existed in Sarajevo. I don't know what else you want me to say.

3 Q. At the time, were there paramilitary formations, paramilitary

4 units which existed in Sarajevo, like the military formation that -- under

5 the control of Juka Prazina, of Musan Topalovic, Ramiz Delalic? There

6 were all these paramilitary groups in Sarajevo in the beginning of 1992.

7 A. These were units which had orders from the Ministry of Defence,

8 from the Main Staff, and so on. They cannot be defined as being

9 paramilitary units.

10 Q. Could you tell us, how were they armed, these units?

11 A. A small number of handguns and, for the most part, hunting

12 weapons.

13 Q. Mr. Karavelic, could you tell us, when was the 1st Corps

14 established in Sarajevo?

15 A. I believe that the right date is the 1st September of 1992.

16 Q. Mr. Karavelic, I will show you a decision which units are to form

17 part of the 1st Corps. This is --

18 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this is a document

19 that the Defence received from the Prosecution. But the Defence would --

20 before Mr. Karavelic is shown this document, the Defence would like if

21 Mr. Karavelic can be shown document number 143.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Yes, because you said that you had such a

23 document. We had now time to read it, I take it Prosecution as well.

24 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. Mr. Karavelic, do you see before you a certificate issued on the

1 left-hand side by the military court in Belgrade?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Could you confirm to us that it is correct that what it says in

4 the military certificate, that you, as a former captain first class of the

5 military post called Tuzla throughout 1991 [as interpreted], you were

6 never detained then or later, you were never remanded in custody in the

7 military investigation prison in Belgrade.

8 MR. IERACE: Mr. President.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Ierace.

10 MR. IERACE: I don't know whether it was a translation issue, but

11 my friend said throughout 1991. The document refers to 1992, not 1991.

12 That is my first objection. The second is that I think the evidence of

13 the witness was that he was sent to a prison in Sremska Mitrovica. That

14 prison by name is not mentioned in the certificate, so I think there is a

15 connection that should be made before she can go further.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic.

17 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes Your Honour. The Defence is

18 -- would like to have this document tendered because of the statement of

19 Mr. Karavelic, because he said that the -- because of the statement of Mr.

20 Karavelic, the only court which was competent to try military personnel

21 was the military court in Belgrade. Considering that Mr. Karavelic said

22 that he was sentenced to be shot, the Defence wanted to show that Mr.

23 Karavelic is not speaking the truth.

24 JUDGE ORIE: I take it, Ms. Pilipovic, that the first objection

25 was either a mistake or a translation issue; 1991 and 1992. Yes.

1 Mr. Ierace.

2 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] 1992, Your Honour. I think I said

3 1992. That's what it says in the document.

4 JUDGE ORIE: In the transcript it appears as 1991.

5 MR. IERACE: In relation to my friend's response, the certificate

6 simply says that Mr. Karavelic has not been brought or detained in -- it

7 is not even "the" or "a"; "in military investigating prison in Belgrade."

8 The evidence of the witness is that he was taken to a prison in a

9 particular place. There is not yet a connection in the evidence between

10 military investigating prison in Belgrade and the named prison in the

11 witness's evidence. And certainly no reference as to charges one way or

12 the other, simply the certificate goes to whether he was brought or

13 detained there. If I could spell it out, Mr. President --

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I see that the evidence of the witness

15 yesterday, Ms. Pilipovic, was: "On the 22nd of April 1992 --" and I am

16 referring to page 11.769, line 11: "On the 26th of April 1992, I was

17 captured and taken to Belgrade to the prison in Sremska Mitrovica." The

18 next question was: "Were you tried?" The answer was: "From April 28th

19 until the 11th of May, I was taken before three colonels every day, three

20 colonels of the JNA, who processed me and at the end they told me, they

21 asked me how I would like to be executed." That was the evidence given

22 yesterday.

23 I see that -- perhaps you have read the document. Of course,

24 where the document comes from, you have not asked whether the witness has

25 ever seen this document before. But, if you confront him with the

1 information contained in it, perhaps literally, and perhaps put to him

2 that the Defence is in the possession of a document which would say -

3 although you mentioned that already before - and then perhaps ask his

4 response to that.

5 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. Mr. Karavelic, when you said that you were brought to Belgrade,

7 could you confirm to us whether there was a -- whether there was a trial

8 proceeding conducted against you in Belgrade? Were you tried in Belgrade?

9 A. I was in Tuzla, Tuzla airport, I was placed in a Gazelle plane, I

10 was taken to Banjica, to Belgrade, and there was a major who was holding a

11 gun against me. When I arrived there, I was met by a colonel who was from

12 the Air Force, he was in a blue uniform. I don't want to tell you about

13 other things, what he did to me, because that is not what this case is

14 about. But I was immediately placed in a vehicle, which was a van, which

15 had no windows, and I was immediately taken to Sremska Mitrovica. On the

16 11th of May again, I was again brought to the same heliport in Banjica and

17 with a helicopter I was taken to Pale.

18 Q. So Mr. Karavelic, you are confirming that while you were in

19 Sremska Mitrovica, you were not processed, there were no trial proceedings

20 against you, you were not sentenced?

21 A. I cannot confirm this to you.

22 JUDGE ORIE: I have no translation at this very moment.

23 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] I believe that this is time for a

24 break, Your Honour.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, it is. But after the witness answered, "I

1 cannot confirm this to you," Ms. Pilipovic, did you say anything else

2 other than that you thought it would be time for the break?

3 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation No.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. That is clear. We will adjourn until 10

5 minutes to 1.00.

6 --- Recess taken at 12.30 p.m.

7 --- On resuming at 12.54 p.m.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Ms. Pilipovic.

9 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

10 Q. Mr. Karavelic, before I continue with my questions, I would just

11 like you to confirm whether you carried out criminal act by deserting from

12 the JNA.

13 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I object on the rounds of relevance.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, what is the relevance of whether you

15 consider this a criminal act and perhaps have a lengthy legal discussion

16 on --

17 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, in order not to go

18 into a lengthy debate, the Defence will withdraw that question.

19 Q. Mr. Karavelic, you stated that in the month of May you came to the

20 Main Staff, the main headquarters of the BH army. Can you tell us when

21 that was in May 1992?

22 A. On the 13th of May, when I was exchanged.

23 Q. Mr. Karavelic, then, in May, was there an UNPROFOR presence in

24 Sarajevo at that time?

25 A. I think so, yes, because UNPROFOR came to Sarajevo on the 1st of

1 April 1992, to Sarajevo and Bosnia-Herzegovina.

2 Q. Are you aware of the fact that sometime in the course of the month

3 of May after the 12th of May negotiations were conducted so that the JNA

4 could leave the barracks which, at that time, were surrounded by the

5 Sarajevo TO? Do you know that such negotiations were conducted?

6 A. Yes. I think that some negotiations were conducted. I didn't

7 participate in them. And at that time, I wasn't -- I wasn't present.

8 Q. But later during your tour of duty, was one of the conditions set

9 by the TO regarding the departure from the Sarajevo Barracks, one, that

10 the weapons at the disposal of the JNA should be left to the TO?

11 A. I can't confirm that, but I think that that was one of the wishes,

12 the desires.

13 Q. If I tell you that there is information that a large quantity of

14 arms did remain with the Sarajevo TO and that it was placed in the Marshal

15 Tito and the Bubanj barracks, would you agree with me?

16 A. I was present when --

17 MR. IERACE: This is the third time that my learned colleague has

18 referred to material which she has not shown to the witness. The first

19 was a book, and the second was an account by someone else. It simply

20 isn't probative to elicit evidence in this way, especially in this case,

21 given that the witness has already said that he wasn't part of the

22 negotiations. If my friend wishes simply say to him, "Do you know whether

23 a large quantity of arms remained with the Sarajevo TO?" I would

24 have no objection to that.

25 JUDGE ORIE: So the subject is not in issue, but, Ms. Pilipovic,

1 as you know, leading questions, and especially in cross-examination, are

2 quite acceptable, but telling the witness what the sources are, where you

3 have your information from, I think without confronting the witness with

4 these sources is not the proper way of doing it. So would you please

5 proceed and, again, the subject is no problem.

6 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, when I told Mr.

7 Karavelic about the information from the book, I had the book before me

8 and I could have shown it to Mr. Karavelic, but he confirmed that he knew

9 about the book, and this book has also been disclosed to my learned

10 friends Sefer Halilovic's book, "Cunning Strategy."

11 As far as my questioning --

12 JUDGE ORIE: The objection was only about the last question.

13 There were no objections made before, although Mr. Ierace now makes

14 reference too that he perhaps could have objected against it, but he did

15 not.

16 Please proceed.

17 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

18 Q. Mr. Karavelic, when I asked you about the quantities of arms of

19 the JNA in Sarajevo, whether you knew anything about that, before that I

20 asked you whether you knew whether UNPROFOR was present in Sarajevo at

21 that time and you answered, "Yes."

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. During your work as deputy commander in the corps, did you find

24 out that a large quantity of arms was left to the TO? Did you have such

25 information?

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1 A. Unfortunately, my information is quite the opposite. So, which

2 one is correct, I don't know.

3 Q. If I told you that the Defence has a statement by Mr. Richard Gray

4 who at that time was on duty in Sarajevo with the UNPROFOR --

5 MR. IERACE: Same objection, Mr. President, for the same reason.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, if you want to confront the witness

7 with a specific source of information, then you perhaps put that

8 information to the witness and ask questions about it. Also the Chamber

9 has some difficulties in following who Mr. Gray is, what his document is

10 about. So to understand the testimony better, I think if you want to use

11 the material, that is no problem, but then you should do it so that

12 everyone can see it or you just ask the question and do not refer to any

13 specific source of your knowledge.

14 Yes, Mr. Ierace.

15 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I object to the course my learned

16 colleague proposes. The witness has clearly said his information was

17 quite the opposite and he doesn't know where the truth lies. There is no

18 probative value in showing the witness, against the background of that

19 answer, a statement by someone else.

20 JUDGE ORIE: I do not know that, Mr. Ierace, because I -- let's

21 just assume, although perhaps not probable, that Mr. Gray has put in his

22 statement - we don't know that statement - that this witness would have

23 told him in detail, that would pertain to the reliability of the witness.

24 So I can't say that unless I have seen the material. So, therefore, if

25 you want to confront the witness with the material, please do so, Ms.

1 Pilipovic, but otherwise do not mention specific sources.

2 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence has Mr.

3 Gray's statement, which was disclosed by the Prosecution. Specifically

4 Mr. Gray says in his statement, he talks about the barracks and the

5 weapons in Sarajevo on the 24th of May. And my question was put to Mr.

6 Karavelic whether UNPROFOR was present and whether he had information

7 about the weapons which remained in the barracks, which remained in the

8 barracks and was handed to the TO when the JNA withdrew. This is why I

9 wanted to mention Mr. Gray's statement, because at that time Mr. Karavelic

10 was already in the Main Staff of the BH army and he must have some

11 information about that and he probably wishes tell the truth.

12 And this is the reason why I am telling him about the statement of

13 Mr. Gray who states quite the opposite.

14 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]... of Mr. Gray, but

15 confront him with the relevant part of the statement of Mr. Gray.

16 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

17 Q. Mr. Karavelic, if I were to say to you that the forces of the TO

18 blocked the barracks and requested that all the weapons held by the JNA be

19 handed over to the TO, would you agree with me that this is correct?

20 A. Perhaps I would agree with the fact that it was requested that all

21 the arms in possession by the JNA in the barracks should be left behind,

22 but I cannot agree with the fact that it was actually left behind.

23 Q. Mr. Karavelic, before the break I asked you about what you knew

24 about the forming of the 1st Corps in Sarajevo.

25 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not hear the rest of that

1 question and the answer of the witness was, "Yes."

2 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. Could you please tell us how many military formations and what

4 were they that comprised the 1st Corps?

5 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps we verify first. Mr. Karavelic, Ms.

6 Pilipovic said to you before the break that she asked you about what you

7 knew about the forming of the 1st Corps in Sarajevo. The interpreters

8 could not hear your answer properly. Did you just answer "Yes" or did you

9 add anything to that?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I have a problem saying

11 anything right now. I can respond to any question, that is no problem.

12 JUDGE ORIE: I am just --

13 THE INTERPRETER: Your Honour, the interpreters did not hear the

14 end of Ms. Pilipovic's question.

15 JUDGE ORIE: I am sorry. Ms. Pilipovic, I misunderstood the

16 message from the interpreters. The last part of your question was not

17 heard by the interpreters. Could you please repeat your question which

18 started with: "Before the break I asked you about what you knew about the

19 forming of the 1st Corps in Sarajevo," and what was then the last part of

20 your question.

21 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] And which military formations

22 comprised the 1st Corps.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was one of those responsible when

24 we are talking about the forming of the 1st Corps of the Army of BH and I

25 was the deputy commander of that corps. Had this been requested of me, I

1 could have brought documents, maps, to show the court here. But now I

2 cannot tell you just off the top of my head exactly which units were part

3 of the corps, although I can name some of them

4 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. Mr. Karavelic, allow me to show you a document that the Defence

6 received from the Prosecution. It is a decision stating which units were

7 part of the 1st Corps.

8 MS. PILIPOVIC: And we would like to show this document to Mr.

9 Karavelic so that he could confirm for us whether these were actually the

10 units that comprised the 1st Corps.

11 THE REGISTRAR: D144.

12 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. Mr. Karavelic, do you recognise the document that you have in

14 your hands?

15 A. I can't say that I recognise it because this is a document from

16 the Presidency of Bosnia-Herzegovina. This kind of document would come to

17 the Main Staff and then, once it passed through the Main Staff, I would

18 receive a document from my commander. So I did not have the opportunity

19 to see a document like this.

20 Q. Mr. Karavelic, can you confirm for us that this document, which is

21 in the form of a decision, states in item 3 under I, that: "The

22 composition of the 1st Corps of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina includes

23 the following units."

24 A. Yes. I think these are the units.

25 Q. Mr. Karavelic, are you confirming that you can see, based on this

1 document, that the composition of the 1st Corps of the BH army, dated the

2 18th of August, 1992, included 13 or 14 brigades and that is stated under

3 "A"?

4 A. Yes, I see that. And this is stated in the document.

5 Q. Is it correct that the document states that the brigades, the 1st

6 Independent Sarajevo Brigade, the Stari Grad Sarajevo Brigade, Zmaj Od of

7 Bosnia, Centar Sarajevo, Hadzi Lojo Brigade, Stari Grad the 13th Brigade,

8 New Sarajevo the 14th Brigade, Novi Grad the 15th Brigade, Novi Grad the

9 1st Dobrinja Brigade, the 1st Podrinje Brigade, the 2nd Podrinje Brigade,

10 the 1st Sanjak [phoen], the 7th Brigade, the 1st Mixed Artillery Regiment,

11 the 1st Infantry Brigade Igman, and also Independent Battalion?

12 A. All of these units did exist, most of them. I am not quite sure

13 about the 7th Brigade as such. This is something I did not come across

14 before. At the time the 1st Corps was formed, I don't see any detachments

15 which would comprise the 1st Corps but which were there on the 1st of

16 September, for example, the Sirokaca Detachment. When the 1st Corps was

17 formed, these units were there. This document looks as if it was written

18 later in November or December 1992. But --

19 Q. Can you confirm, in view of the role that you had in the Main

20 Staff and later as the deputy commander of the 1st Corps, that these

21 brigades did comprise the 1st Corps?

22 A. The majority of them, yes.

23 Q. Mr. Karavelic, can you tell us where the command posts of these

24 brigades were located, the brigades that we see mentioned in this

25 decision?

1 A. Without consulting documents, it would be difficult. 1992 was a

2 long time ago.

3 Q. But, Mr. Karavelic, if it says, for example, under number 2, the

4 1st Brigade Stari Grad Sarajevo, would you be able to tell us where the

5 Stari Grad Brigade was located, where the command post was?

6 A. Would you believe me if I told you that in the beginning, the

7 commander was one person and that two or three people made up the command

8 of the brigade and that they didn't have a specific location.

9 Q. Mr. Karavelic, when you confirmed for us that these brigades made

10 up the 1st Corps, could you also tell us, since you were the deputy

11 commander of the 1st Corps --

12 MR. IERACE: Mr. President.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Ierace.

14 MR. IERACE: The question misrepresents the witness's evidence.

15 He said the majority made up the 1st Corps. The question suggests that he

16 confirmed all of them were.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, the objection is sustained, but I would say that

18 there was hardly any risk of confusion. I wouldn't say no risk, but

19 hardly any risk.

20 Please proceed, Ms. Pilipovic.

21 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. Mr. Karavelic, can you please tell us how the brigade members were

23 trained --

24 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: What kind of uniforms

25 did the brigade members of the 1st corps have?

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Specifically during the whole of

2 1992, the 1st Corps had a minimum number of any kind of uniforms. And for

3 the most part, the soldiers wore the clothes that they brought from home.

4 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. Mr. Karavelic, you said that you didn't see that in this division,

6 but that special units or special detachments were also part of the 1st

7 Corps and you mentioned the Sirokaca special detachment.

8 A. Yes, the TO detachment of Sirokaca, not a special detachment.

9 Q. Is this detachment linked to the Siroka region of Sarajevo?

10 A. Yes, that's right.

11 Q. And in accordance with that principle, can you confirm that such

12 detachments were formed in that way?

13 A. Yes, in the beginning, the majority of the companies and the

14 detachments were formed like that. Brigades were formed later. And the

15 corps itself was formed from a large number of such detachments and from a

16 smaller number of brigades.

17 Q. Mr. Karavelic, can you confirm for us that the 1st Corps also

18 comprised the reconnaissance and sabotage unit which was formed in the

19 month of October, that it was formed and that it became part of the 1st

20 Corps?

21 A. Are you thinking of Juka Prazina's brigade?

22 Q. No, I am not thinking of Juka Prazina's brigade but I am just

23 asking you, was there an order to form a reconnaissance and sabotage unit?

24 A. Yes, I think there was such an order.

25 Q. Can you tell us which units made up the reconnaissance-sabotage

1 brigade within the corps, initially?

2 A. The reconnaissance-sabotage brigade which was formed did not ever

3 achieve not even a quarter of the establishment brigade, the way it should

4 look. But in the beginning, it was formed from, I think, personnel from

5 platoons and companies of that kind in order to form such a brigade within

6 the 1st Corps of the Bosnia-Herzegovina Army.

7 Q. Did the units which made up the reconnaissance-sabotage battalion

8 have any specific names, and if they did, did such -- which -- what were

9 the names of those units?

10 A. They didn't have any specific names, but I would have to go

11 through the documents in order to see what the exact name of the brigade

12 was.

13 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence would

14 like to show Mr. Karavelic a document which it received from the

15 Prosecution.

16 MR. IERACE: Mr. President --

17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace was on his feet after some hesitation, but

18 yes, please.

19 MR. IERACE: Hesitation because, Mr. President, I think at page

20 69, around line 6, there was some part of Ms. Pilipovic's question, and

21 perhaps an answer, that we did not have translated. It might have been

22 around page 9 -- line 9, in fact.

23 JUDGE ORIE: I will read for the witness because I have no proper

24 recollection of that. But I will first ask my colleagues.

25 [Trial Chamber confers]

1 JUDGE ORIE: Judge El Mahdi informs me that the microphone at a

2 certain moment was closed but that whatever has been said has been

3 repeated. Please proceed.

4 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. Mr. Karavelic, you told me that if you saw the order, you would be

6 able to tell us more about the reconnaissance-sabotage brigade of the 1st

7 Corps.

8 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] And Your Honour, the Defence would

9 like to show Mr. Karavelic a document which the Prosecution disclosed to

10 the Defence.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Would you please assist, Madam Usher.

12 THE REGISTRAR: D145.

13 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. Mr. Karavelic, do you recognise this document? Page 1 is in

15 English and page 2 is in B/C/S.

16 A. Well, I think it is an okay document. Whether I recognise it, it

17 is a difficult question. I can start by saying that this is possibly

18 correct. I am not doubting this document at all.

19 Q. Mr. Karavelic, from this order we can see that within the 1st

20 Corps the reconnaissance-sabotage brigade was created and that it

21 comprised special unit Sultan Fatih, special unit Boris, special unit

22 Fatih, special unit Kobra, special unit Ljiljana, section for upkeep of

23 materiel assets, special unit of the corps, and special unit Drago

24 Prazina. Is this correct, Mr. Karavelic?

25 A. All these names are more or less known to me. I recognise them.

1 That all these units became part of a sabotage reconnaissance brigade,

2 that is something I cannot agree with because I am almost certain

3 that they did not become part of it, not even half of them. Because

4 order is one thing and it is a completely separate thing what at the time,

5 at that very moment on the ground, in practice, could have been

6 implemented.

7 Q. Mr. Karavelic, are you saying that all of these units are known to

8 you and that they did exist at the time in Sarajevo?

9 A. They probably are all units that existed in brigades, which is

10 what I said a moment ago.

11 Q. When you say that you cannot confirm that they all became part of

12 the sabotage reconnaissance brigade, are you saying that some of the units

13 did not wish to become part of that brigade? Did they act independently?

14 A. No, that is not what I am saying. That frequently, the chief of

15 the Main Staff would make a decision without looking at the situation

16 realistically based on the information from local commanders and so on.

17 Frequently, it occurred that there would be a decision made, an order

18 issued, and then it would have to be revised when it was to be

19 implemented.

20 Q. Mr. Karavelic, as a deputy commander of the 1st Corps, were you

21 informed how these units were armed?

22 A. There is no difference in comparison to other units in terms of

23 weapons.

24 Q. In the document, it says, "special unit." Are you saying that

25 they existed, too? Could you tell us what is the strength in terms of

1 numbers of such units and where were they located, where were they

2 billeted?

3 A. I cannot give you a figure. I don't have it. But as far as the

4 word "special" is concerned, I can only say that then, in 1992 in

5 Sarajevo, it was very important for some people to call themselves

6 "special units," and they wouldn't even amount to being the letter "S" of

7 a special unit. And one example is Juka Prazina, who had such people with

8 him, and he more or less insisted on calling himself a special unit, but

9 there was no difference between them and any other units.

10 Q. When you mentioned Juka Prazina, could you tell us how many people

11 were members of that special unit under Juka Prazina?

12 A. I think there were about a couple of hundred only.

13 Q. And where were they based? What offices, what premises did they

14 use?

15 A. The actual commander of the brigade even had at one point its

16 command post in the premises in the building of the Presidency of BH. But

17 where the other units were, I cannot tell you now. The great frustration

18 that the army felt in 1992 was this.

19 Q. Mr. Karavelic, bearing in mind your background, your education,

20 your military expertise, could you perhaps explain how can a special unit

21 under the command of Juka Prazina - and the Defence does have data,

22 information, that he was a criminal - how could its command post be in the

23 building of the Presidency?

24 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, again I object. It is inappropriate

25 to put to a witness that sort of proposition. I have no objection to my

1 friend putting to the witness that Juka Prazina was a criminal, or asking

2 was he a criminal. Within the confines of procedure, that is

3 acceptable. But to simply inform a witness that the Defence has

4 information to that effect is not only not probative, but can lead to

5 misunderstanding and distortion. Thank you.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Ms. Pilipovic, I think there is no need to

7 refer to any evidence, of course, unless you confront the witness with

8 certain documents or, for example, convictions or whatever. And I have a

9 second question: Do I have to understand that the special unit

10 Drago Prazina, is that what you are referring to as the Juka Prazina --

11 no.

12 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] No.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Would you then -- because what I -- you asked the

14 witness how it would be possible that -- let me just try to re-find it.

15 Yes. The testimony of the witness was that the actual commander

16 of the brigade we are talking about had, at one point, his command post in

17 the premises, in the building of the Presidency of the BH.

18 You asked the witness to explain how it could be that Juka Prazina

19 had its command post in the building of the Presidency, which is not the

20 same. I am not saying that -- at least, it does not follow from the

21 answer of the witness, but if you would say that the commander of the

22 brigade was Juka Prazina, then first please ask the witness.

23 Please proceed.

24 MR. IERACE: Mr. President.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

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1 MR. IERACE: Before we proceed, another matter. On two of the

2 documents that have been shown to the witness together with

3 translations, there are -- on each, there is a sentence which has not been

4 translated. I think it appropriate that my learned colleague bring out

5 the translation of those sentences. In the list of the brigades, it is

6 the last sentence, and in the list of the special units --

7 JUDGE ORIE: Let's first see what document are you talking about.

8 D144, Mr. Ierace, or... ?

9 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I have difficulty in reading the

10 numbers, the Defence exhibit number.

11 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] 145.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but 144 precedes 145.

13 MR. IERACE: It must be -- I assume it's 144. It ends with ERN

14 214.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And what part is not translated?

16 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, if you look at the translation, it

17 ends with B battalions, one independent battalion.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, and then it's indicated that a part has not been

19 translated by giving dots.

20 MR. IERACE: Yes. And one can see there is a part of the order

21 which has not been translated.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Also indicated by dots, if I am correct.

23 MR. IERACE: Yes, and on the second document, it is point four

24 which has not been translated.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That was indicated by dots, isn't it? I see

1 three dots under "special unit Drago Prazina." And do I understand that

2 the documents are disclosed by the Prosecution and that the Defence

3 considers the translated parts to be relevant? Is that what I understand?

4 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, it was disclosed by the Prosecution,

5 but we had no prior notice that they were to be used today. Given that

6 they are orders and that they are one-page orders, that is the parts not

7 translated, part of the orders --

8 JUDGE ORIE: Do you think -- let's just try to find a practical

9 solution. I do understand that the Defence does consider these altogether

10 three lines on the two documents not relevant. I think that we are not

11 finished with the cross-examination of the witness by today. Would the

12 Prosecution find a possibility before tomorrow to have at least the

13 content of these three lines, if not formally translated, at least

14 that you know what it is about and whether it would be relevant in your

15 view.

16 MR. IERACE: Of course, Mr. President, to assist we will do that.

17 But if there are documents to be shown tomorrow morning, might I

18 respectfully submit that, when it is only a sentence, my friend could at

19 least read it out so we can have the live translation from the booth.

20 JUDGE ORIE: I take it, Ms. Pilipovic, that if you would use a

21 document by tomorrow, that translations have already been prepared. So if

22 you would provide then the Prosecution with the numbers, and when

23 translations were prepared by the Defence, for the translations as well by

24 the end of the session.

25 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

1 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

2 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

3 Q. So, Mr. Karavelic, my question regarding my question in relation

4 to the document 145 and special units, did you tell me that these units

5 were also special just like special units of Juka Prazina?

6 A. What do you mean? What do you want me to say? I don't

7 understand the question.

8 Q. You yourself, Mr. Karavelic, told me that these units had a

9 special status just like the special status -- special units of Juka

10 Prazina.

11 A. No, I did not tell you that. These units did not have the status

12 like the units of Juka Prazina because it was directly linked to the chief

13 of the Main Staff and these other units were on the level of the brigades

14 and they became part of the 1st Corps. Juka Prazina's unit never became

15 part of the 1st Corps, only later, when Juka Prazina was executed, it then

16 became part of the 1st Corps. That was in much later, that was in 1993.

17 Q. When you tell us that Mr. Juka Prazina was killed, that he was

18 liquidated, could you tell us, what was his role in the BH army?

19 A. He was the commander of that brigade while he was in Sarajevo. He

20 led troops into combat. He worked just like anyone else.

21 Q. Did Mr. Juka Prazina's brigade, was it part of the 1st Corps of

22 the BH army?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Are you telling us that it acted independently?

25 A. It was a unit linked, it was an independent unit directly linked

1 to the Main Staff of the army of BH.

2 Q. So you are saying that it was under the direct command of the Main

3 Staff?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Could you tell us, in 1992 where were the positions of Juka

6 Prazina's brigade in Sarajevo?

7 A. Could you please repeat the period.

8 Q. I am talking about 1992, September-October -- 1993.

9 A. I don't think that his brigade had anywhere permanent positions.

10 It was a manoeuvring unit which was used for attempts of break-through and

11 stopping that break-through, preventing the break-through.

12 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, counsel.

13 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. When you say "manoeuvring unit" could you perhaps tell us how many

15 manoeuvring brigades were there within the 1st Corps, as part of the 1st

16 Corps?

17 A. That number went usually from one to two, depending on time.

18 Occasionally there was one, sometimes there were two and this would depend

19 on the assessment of the entire political and military situation in

20 Sarajevo.

21 Q. Mr. Karavelic, considering that we spoke of special units, could

22 you tell us whether in the period of 1992 - we are talking about until

23 September 1993 and 1994 - whether there was a special sniper unit in

24 Sarajevo that was active?

25 A. The special unit snipers in Sarajevo?

1 Q. Special unit called Seve.

2 A. That was never in the 1st Corps, first of all. And this name is

3 associated with MUP units and it is currently there are trial proceedings

4 in relation to this in Sarajevo. What is all true in relation to this, I

5 couldn't tell you, but certainly there was nothing under sniper unit.

6 Q. What about Seva?

7 A. Seva, yes, but there were no other prefixes attached to this.

8 Q. Mr. Karavelic, could you tell us whether in the period while you

9 were carrying out your duties in 1992, 1993 and 1994, whether Mr. Stjepan

10 Siber also had certain duties in the BH army.

11 A. Yes, he was the official deputy of the chief of the Main Staff,

12 together with Mr. Jovo Divjak, as I told you yesterday.

13 Q. Did you have contacts with him in the course of your work?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Were you informed by Mr. Siber that in May 1992, members of the TO

16 in Sarajevo were distributed 540 sniper rifles from the Zrak factory?

17 A. To be honest, no, and this is the first time I hear anything about

18 it.

19 Q. Do you have any knowledge that Mr. Siber had written a book, a

20 diary for 1992?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Did you have the opportunity of reading this book?

23 A. Only partially, only in relation to myself.

24 Q. If I tell you that in this book, Mr. Siber is writing that in the

25 month of May there were 540 rifles --

1 MR. IERACE: I object.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

3 MR. IERACE: Firstly, the witness has said that he has never heard

4 of it before, and, therefore, assuming that Mr. Siber's book claims that,

5 it is of no probative value to suggest it to the witness. Secondly, if

6 there is probative value to it, then the quote should be given to the

7 witness, or at least a copy provided to the Defence [sic] while it is read

8 to the witness.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, if you are confronting the witness

10 with part of a book, unless the book as a whole has been disclosed to

11 the --

12 MR. IERACE: Prosecution I should have said.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Prosecution, yes, yes, and even then it would be

14 appropriate to inform the Prosecution that you would rely on a certain

15 page or certain part of that book. That is the first issue. The second

16 issue is that the witness has answered the question that he hears it for

17 the first time. I do not know what you are about to quote from the book,

18 but if that would be just the same as you did already on page 78, line 23,

19 about the distribution of sniper rifles to members of the TO, that would

20 be repetitious.

21 [Trial Chamber confers]

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed, Ms. Pilipovic.

23 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone counsel, please.

24 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I just

25 would like to inform the Chamber that part of the book that I asked Mr.

1 Karavelic about is part of the Defence Exhibits, but because I wasn't

2 precise enough, I will list it tomorrow, I will cite it tomorrow. I think

3 it is 304, but I will do it tomorrow. Thank you.

4 JUDGE ORIE: I know that some parts of this book -- I don't know

5 whether these are the same parts, but some parts of the book were tendered

6 and admitted into evidence.

7 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, any translation problems you would like to draw

8 our attention to?

9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

10 Unfortunately, many.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, if you could do it in such a way that everyone

12 can follow it and nevertheless as short as possible.

13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] 67.26 --

14 THE INTERPRETER: Could the counsel --

15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] 8.15.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Please, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, could you say page so and

17 so, line so and so, and then this word not translated or --

18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, gladly. Page 6, line 16,

19 "26" instead of "36."

20 Page 26, line 16, "enlargement" is not what was needed because we

21 were talking about the largest possible map.

22 Page 33, line 10, the word "executed" should not be the same as

23 "eliminated." I believe this was a military execution.

24 Page 7 [as interpreted], line 14, we were talking about three

25 colonels and the text is only talking about colonels, "the colonels."

1 And then there is a problem in relation to a place name, page 51,

2 line 4. Line 4, yes.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Mr. Ierace.

4 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, before we adjourn, I would be grateful

5 for an indication of how much further time will be allowed for the Defence

6 for cross-examination. It would assist in terms of us --

7 JUDGE ORIE: As far as I can see, the Prosecution took four

8 hours.

9 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, that included a very large period of

10 time devoted to marking maps.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Part of the marking of maps was done in court and, to

12 some extent, I think the Chamber met the requests of the Prosecution to do

13 it as efficiently as possible. But, of course, it is up to the

14 Prosecution itself whether they want to spend time on marking maps.

15 If a map has been produced by a witness at a prior stage of the

16 investigations, that usually has been accepted. It depends on the

17 circumstances, but a lot of marked maps have been -- have been used.

18 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, just in relation --

19 JUDGE ORIE: Even if we take that into account, I think we spent

20 approximately 20 minutes on starting to marking the maps. Then the maps

21 were marked during the break, and most of the time was, as I indicated

22 already yesterday, was spent by asking questions about the markings. The

23 marking itself was of relatively -- took relatively short time. That was

24 four hours altogether so even if there would be reason to deduct anything,

25 until now, the Defence took 1 hour and 40 minutes. I don't know whether

1 the Defence has any indication whether they would need the full four

2 hours, if they would be granted --

3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I am afraid

4 that this should be a little bit more than four hours that the Prosecution

5 has used, because I don't know whether you have used the break in this

6 calculation, but this time was used by the witness, i.e., by the Defence

7 to supervise him while he was marking. If this calculation was included,

8 fine, but I don't think you did include it.

9 JUDGE ORIE: No, I did not include it. I will consider with the

10 Chamber whether it should be included, although it is not time used for

11 examination of the witness, but of course the most important thing is

12 whether it takes time in court. I mean, that is what we are talking

13 about. At least it did not take time in court. I perhaps --

14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

15 MR. IERACE: Would you hear me in response to what you have just

16 said? Firstly, in relation to the estimate of four hours, our estimate of

17 the entire time is 3 hours and 38 minutes.

18 Secondly, you said a few minutes ago, effectively, that is

19 something that should have been attended to by the Prosecution before the

20 witness got into the witness box. I specifically sought your approval to

21 do that the day before Mr. Karavelic entered the box on the morning, and

22 you indicated that you would reflect on it and inform me later. That

23 didn't happen.

24 JUDGE ORIE: We did fail to do so and we then considered whether

25 it would be appropriate or not. And it might have come a bit as a

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1 surprise to you that halfway we changed, but the Chamber first wanted to

2 know what kind of markings and what kind of questions that would raise to

3 see that first, and then on the basis of our experience until then to see

4 whether we could find a solution which would take less time in court. So

5 I do agree with you that you reminded me in very gentle words, I remember,

6 that we failed to give a decision. We then gave a decision that we would

7 not allow the marking to be done in court, but the Chamber had considered,

8 by itself, that they would first like to have experience with a couple of

9 these maps and then see whether perhaps the additional markings could be

10 made out of the specific court time.

11 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, you just said that the decision was

12 that you would not allow the marking to be done in court; I assume you

13 meant out of court.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Out of court, yes, it was a mistake.

15 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I note that the other map which the

16 witness had prepared out of court, and indeed with the assistance of

17 others, was not the subject of any objection by the Defence, which

18 clearly inconsistent with the position they took in relation to the

19 marking of the front line positions. I simply make this point to

20 emphasise that we have done and continue to do our best to live within the

21 date we are required to complete our case.

22 In doing that, we have to clearly make -- anticipate what

23 decisions will be made by the Trial Chamber, such as these in relation to

24 the tender of material. If the Defence is given four hours of

25 cross-examination and perhaps more on the basis that your calculations

1 indicate that we took four hours in chief, and much of that time was

2 occupied in doing a task which it transpires, having regard to the

3 inconsistency of the Defence position, perhaps could have been reduced to

4 two hours or two and a half hours or three hours, then, as has happened,

5 we are left in an embarrassing situation in terms of completing our case.

6 Mr. President, perhaps tomorrow I could have the opportunity of

7 addressing the Trial Chamber as to where the Prosecution presently stands,

8 given the timetable, and the 92 bis decision, which we have not received

9 but which you have indicated the important aspects in terms of us

10 preparing our case.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I think the whole disposition is known to you.

12 If we are not able to deliver the decision in writing this afternoon, if

13 there are any further details necessary, the Chamber will give them.

14 Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. The

16 Defence is even more concerned to save time than the Prosecution. And we

17 can start tomorrow morning right away. Since Mr. Ierace would like to

18 address the court about something, we would like to know what is happening

19 with the documents which I said are either falsified or tampered with.

20 This is important for us because we have to be organised ourselves and the

21 Prosecution provides documents to us and to you and the documents on those

22 dates are not quite right.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, I invited the Prosecution to

24 respond at shortest notice on your observations. The Chamber will see

25 what that response is and then will give a decision.

1 We will adjourn until tomorrow morning --

2 MR. STAMP: Before we do, I think I invited the Defence to state a

3 position in writing and we could respond and --

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, you are right. I asked to put the proposals in

5 writing in one page or less, I remember that I said. So just very

6 briefly.

7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I have already

8 done that. We did that last night between midnight and 2.00 a.m., and

9 this is probably already somewhere in the Registry and the Prosecution

10 should have that by now. But I can provide the Prosecution with a copy,

11 if somebody would follow me to the Defence attorneys' room.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, and then we will receive on short notice the

13 response of the Prosecution. We will then adjourn until tomorrow morning.

14 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Maybe this is of assistance for the

15 Prosecutor, but today, on page 3, line 19 says that the president says, "I

16 take it that the Prosecution will respond in due course." It doesn't say

17 in the written form, but as far as I understood, it was --

18 MR. IERACE: That was yesterday, Your Honour, that we were

19 required to do it in writing. Thank you.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Let's deal with the matter as soon as possible and

21 not spend too much time on things that do not really come to the core of

22 the problem. I now give it a last try that we will adjourn until 9.00

23 tomorrow morning and I hope that everyone has an opportunity to sleep in

24 the late evening or early night hours.

25 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

1 1.56 p.m., to be reconvened on Friday,

2 the 19th day of July, 2002, at 9.00 a.m.

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