021009ED

Page 13367

1 that you will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

2 Mr. Ierace, please proceed and cross-examine the witness.

3 Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I should like -- could -- the

5 technicians seem to have problems. Thank you very much. I didn't want to

6 interrupt Mr. Ierace once he has done the interrogation.

7 JUDGE ORIE: The technicians have problems, or?

8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No, that I do not know,

9 Mr. President. But I have a technical problem with my monitor.

10 JUDGE ORIE: If I could be the second in the queue for my laptop.

11 Let's proceed. You have the transcript on your screen, so we will ask the

12 technicians to help us with the laptop computers.

13 Mr. Ierace. Please proceed.

14 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President.

15 WITNESS: WITNESS DP1 [Resumed]

16 [Witness answered through interpreter]

17 Cross-examined by Mr. Ierace: [cont’d]

18 Q. You told us that you lived in Sarajevo and were there until July

19 of 1994. As you walked around Sarajevo in those war years before July

20 1994, is it the case that everywhere on the roads, on the foot paths,

21 there were the impact marks of mortars?

22 A. In quite a number of places.

23 Q. They were throughout the city, weren't they?

24 A. In those areas where I moved around, yes, to a considerable

25 degree.

Page 13368

1 Q. Towards the end of 1992 and thereafter, barricades were erected on

2 intersections to protect civilians as they crossed the roads from snipers,

3 weren't they?

4 A. Well, yes, in my part of the city, there were only some paths

5 which took you between the buildings, and in that part of the city, I did

6 not see any barricades. The first time I saw them, and they were huge,

7 was when I left Sarajevo to Padine [phoen], Trebevic, to Lukavica. There

8 was a huge sheet of cloth which had been put up there, and I was told that

9 it was to screen us from snipers.

10 Q. Whereabouts was that barricade, that sheet of cloth?

11 A. Well, as you get down -- go down the road from Vrace towards the

12 former barracks, to the right, were posts and this sheet of cloth was hung

13 between those posts. And I saw them the first time when I went out. But

14 they were so-called anti-sniper paths. That is what people called them,

15 including the part of the city where I lived.

16 Q. And those anti-sniping paths were routes for civilians to cross

17 the city safely so they were not exposed to sniper fire from positions

18 held by the Bosnian Serb army, weren't they?

19 A. People believed that this would provide protection.

20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I object to this question,

21 Your Honours, because it is incredibly leading. It is based on the

22 principle that it is a Serb army which fired and that one had to be

23 protected against Serb shots. My objection is based on the fact that we

24 believe that they were simply shots, also within the city. So a question

25 phrased in this manner is not acceptable. Thank you.

Page 13369

1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, would you like to respond.

2 MR. IERACE: Yes, Mr. President. The objection misunderstands the

3 nature of cross-examination. The fact that it is leading is not a proper

4 basis for objecting when the question is put in cross-examination. In any

5 event, the witness's answer accommodates the part of the concern expressed

6 by my learned colleague. But fundamentally, there is nothing wrong with

7 that question.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Piletta-Zanin, I think it's already a

9 couple of months ago that we had a very short discussion on leading

10 questions and whether they were allowed or not. And it's my recollection

11 that I then explained to you that that was exactly the difference between

12 examination-in-chief and cross-examination, that in examination-in-chief,

13 questions should not be leading; and at least that the other party could

14 object against leading questions although very often they slip through

15 because they are not on the contested issues. Cross-examination, leading

16 questions, in general, are permitted. So the objection is denied. Please

17 proceed.

18 MR. IERACE:

19 Q. Sir, the city, prior to July 1994, and since the beginning of the

20 armed conflict, was in a large part surrounded by forces of the Bosnian

21 Serb Army, wasn't it?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And I suggest to you there can be no doubt that from their

24 positions, the Bosnian Serb army launched shells and fired into the city?

25 A. From what I could gather, and that is also part of my previous

Page 13370

1 answer, the city was divided. There were parts controlled by Serbs and

2 parts controlled by Muslim forces. And it is not in dispute that there

3 was fierce fighting between them, and that included also the shelling of

4 the city.

5 Q. Sir, you have no doubt in your mind do you that the Bosnian Serb

6 Army forces fired into the city, that is the part of the city that was on

7 the side of the confrontation lines controlled by the presidency. Isn't

8 that the case?

9 A. Yes, there was gunfire.

10 Q. And that gunfire was often targeted against civilians, wasn't it?

11 A. I wouldn't be able to make such a claim. I have neither

12 information nor knowledge of that. But I'm quite sure that there was

13 fighting between them and very fierce at that. And that weapons were

14 involved. But whether they were targeting military objectives or

15 civilians, that is something I cannot say because you insisted that I tell

16 you only about what I saw with my own eyes.

17 Q. Yes. I'm insisting about what I saw with your own eyes, and what

18 you as a reasonable person concluded as someone who lived in the city in

19 those years. I suggest to you it was obvious that there were places you

20 could not go without placing yourself in danger of being shot, and that

21 those places were areas which were open to the view of the areas

22 controlled by the Bosnian Serb army.

23 A. There is no doubt that in these clashes and during the shelling,

24 there had to be civilian casualties. In modern parlance, it is called

25 collateral damage. Yes, there were civilian casualties, and I said

Page 13371

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

Page 13372

1 already yesterday that I had seen such victims personally on

2 Miskin Street.

3 Q. And they were civilians?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Were they men and women?

6 A. Yes, both. According to the list that was published.

7 Q. You mentioned earlier the routes that developed for civilians to

8 pass through the city. Those routes were heavily used by pedestrians,

9 weren't they?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Did you use those routes?

12 A. Now and then, yes. Among other things, because they were also

13 shortcuts. They went through some passages going around certain streets.

14 And I frequently used a particular path when I went to visit my sister

15 because that was indeed a shortcut.

16 Q. Sir, do you seriously tell us that the only reason you used those

17 routes was because they were a convenient shortcut and not for your own

18 protection?

19 A. Well, sir, during those 800 days in Sarajevo, there were really

20 very many days when one could walk freely around the streets. And I told

21 you only what I used going to one particular destination.

22 Q. Sir, I suggest you have not answered my question. I will repeat

23 it. Do you seriously tell us that the only reason you used those routes

24 was because they were a convenient shortcut and not for your own

25 protection?

Page 13373

1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I object to the use of the

4 word "seriously." I believe that -- what shall I call it? It is an

5 attitude which is not acceptable because it has negative implications.

6 Thank you.

7 [Trial Chamber confers]

8 JUDGE ORIE: The objection is denied. Nevertheless, some

9 guidance, Mr. Ierace. Whenever we could avoid words that

10 might -- whenever we could avoid, since it's not necessary, to use words

11 that might have a certain impact on a witness, the Chamber very much would

12 appreciate if you would do so.

13 MR. IERACE: Certainly, Mr. President.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed.

15 MR. IERACE:

16 Q. There was a route, a safety route, that was particularly used by

17 pedestrians to move through the city in a east/west direction. Is that

18 the case?

19 A. Yes, but there were places where nothing was protected, and one

20 knew that one could expect shots there.

21 Q. The obvious reason I suggest to you for taking that particular

22 route was that if pedestrians did not take the protection of the buildings

23 which it offered, they were then exposed to Bosnian Serb army positions to

24 the south of the city. That's correct, isn't it?

25 A. That was the opinion.

Page 13374

1 Q. When you say "that was the opinion" do you mean that that was the

2 obvious reason that many people used that route?

3 A. As far as I know, everybody has an instinctive fear and collective

4 consciousness, and that is how they behave. There was a general belief

5 that there was a threat of shooting.

6 Q. It was a common sight, I suggest to you, to see civilians running

7 across exposed intersections where there were not protective barriers.

8 A. In the early months, yes.

9 Q. You talked about periods of time when people could move freely.

10 Were they the cease-fires?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. I take it that you moved freely during the cease-fires. Is that

13 correct?

14 A. Well, depends on who did what and where everybody was. But people

15 moved quite a lot around the city, and as far as I know, if my memory

16 serves me well, there were about -- there were some 19 cease-fire

17 agreements. And one can't say that they were really respected all the way

18 at all times.

19 Q. My question is quite simple: Did you personally move freely

20 during the cease-fires?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Did you take advantage of the cease-fires to get out more from the

23 protection of where you lived?

24 A. Except those occasions when, because of the illness, I had to be

25 at home, I had to go out every day during the war.

Page 13375

1 Q. Are you saying that up until July 1994, you had to leave your home

2 every day?

3 A. Yes, because I had things to do.

4 Q. All right. I see. Now, you, I take it, had a large number of

5 friends and acquaintances in Sarajevo during that period of time who

6 regarded themselves Bosnian Serbian. Is that the case?

7 A. There were those and the others and others again.

8 Q. Perhaps you, sir, more than many others had a wide circle

9 acquaintances of Bosnian Serbs living in Sarajevo. Would you agree with

10 that?

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 13380

1 deceased buried?

2 A. Both buried in the old Orthodox cemetery. The name escapes me.

3 It goes along the road from which goes from Sarajevo to Vogosca behind the

4 Kosevo park.

5 Q. Which funeral parlour was involved with those two funerals?

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, bearing in mind

8 the protective measures, I wouldn't want us to go from parlour and

9 cemetery. We will then be more accurate about the places. I don't know

10 whether we should go into closed session or not. But I thought I would

11 just mention this. Thank you.

12 MR. IERACE: There's no need for that, Mr. President. There's

13 nothing in that question that could remotely raise a closed session issue.

14 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber does not discern at this very moment any

15 reason to go into closed session. Please proceed, and I take it

16 Mr. Ierace you will be as careful as I expect from the parties to keep in

17 mind that when necessary to go into private or closed session. Please

18 proceed.

19 MR. IERACE: I will, Mr. President.

20 Excuse me, Mr. President. Thank you.

21 Q. Yes. What was the funeral parlour?

22 A. Unfortunately at the time, Orthodox funeral associations were not

23 operating. There was one in the old town, but it wasn't operating as

24 such. So these were privately organised funerals.

25 Q. What time of day or night did the funerals take place?

Page 13381

1 A. They were both during the daytime, usual time in the afternoon.

2 Q. And these were Orthodox funerals?

3 A. Yes, that's right, yes.

4 Q. Did you ever hear of Orthodox funerals being conducted in the

5 nighttime during the armed conflict?

6 A. [No Interpretation]

7 Q. I think the answer was no.

8 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter didn't hear.

9 A. Yes, the answer was no.

10 MR. IERACE:

11 Q. With all your contacts during the armed conflict, as far as you're

12 aware, an Orthodox funeral was never targeted. Is that correct?

13 A. In both cases, when I went to the funeral, there was no shooting.

14 Q. That's not the question, sir. With all of your contacts during

15 the armed conflict, as far as you're aware, an Orthodox funeral was never

16 targeted. Is that your position? Is that correct?

17 A. I didn't hear about that. I said I would be speaking about what I

18 saw, and I went to two funerals and there was no shooting and I never

19 heard about anything like that.

20 JUDGE ORIE: DP1, the question now is whether you ever heard from

21 another person of an Orthodox funeral being attacked. So the question is

22 now not about what you -- whether you experienced yourself an attack on a

23 funeral you attended, but whether you heard of an attack on Orthodox

24 funerals. Would you please answer that question.

25 A. No, I never heard about any.

Page 13382

1 MR. IERACE:

2 Q. Did you ever hear of an Orthodox funeral taking place at night?

3 A. I am not aware of that.

4 Q. All right. As far as you're aware, there was no reason for an

5 Orthodox funeral procession to take place at night. Is that the position?

6 A. I didn't hear that any funerals took place at night.

7 Q. I take it the answer is that you never heard of an Orthodox

8 funeral procession --

9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I must

10 interrupt. I believe that I heard the witness say in his own language

11 that other funerals, which doesn't come out from the English transcript,

12 because the way that I understand was that any funerals is what it says in

13 the transcript. What the witness is saying is that he means that other

14 funerals didn't take place at night. Perhaps the question could be asked

15 again.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

17 JUDGE ORIE: The suggestion was that the question would be asked

18 again. May I invite you to answer the questions as they are put to you.

19 So if the question is whether you ever heard about an Orthodox funeral

20 taking place at night you answer if you ever heard about that or not. If

21 the Prosecution is interested to know whether a similar thing would have

22 happened with other funerals, they will certainly ask you for any

23 additional information. But it was your answer that, at least to this

24 question about Orthodox funeral processions, was your answer that you

25 never heard of any funeral, whether Orthodox or not, took place during the

Page 13383

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

Page 13384

1 night? Is that the answer you -- because the translation might not be

2 perfect. That was your answer?

3 Yes. May I also invite you --

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

5 JUDGE ORIE: -- To say yes. That can be translated. Nodding is

6 very difficult to translate as you understand.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace.

9 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President.

10 Q. Yesterday you were asked some questions by the Defence counsel

11 about the condition of two mosques in the area where you lived. And you

12 told us that they were not shelled prior to July 1994. Is that correct?

13 A. The way I understood the question that the attorney asked me,

14 whether they were damaged, and I know for sure they were not damaged

15 because I went past them almost every day.

16 Q. I suggest to you that there were mosques in Sarajevo which prior

17 to July 1994 were damaged and in some cases destroyed by shelling. Do you

18 agree with that?

19 A. It is possible. I didn't see it. I saw these two mosques. And I

20 also some others in the city which were also not damaged. But it is

21 possible that there were some that were damaged. Because I didn't go to

22 all the areas in the city.

23 Q. In the first phase of the war, a number of public buildings, in

24 particular, important buildings, were shelled and destroyed, weren't they?

25 A. Well, I even observed the shelling of the MUP.

Page 13385

1 Q. What about the library? Do you remember that?

2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I have to object here. I

5 remember in the past that the questions in relation to the library that

6 Mr. Ierace wanted to ask were not accepted by the Chamber, I believe,

7 because this happened much before than the period in the indictment.

8 MR. IERACE: Mr. President.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Ierace, before answering, first of all your

10 question was about the first phase. It was to the Chamber not entirely

11 clear what the first phase would precisely comprise. And would you then

12 also please respond to the objection of Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

13 MR. IERACE: Yes, Mr. President. The Prosecution has not

14 previously sought to elicit any evidence in relation to the destruction of

15 public buildings including places of worship for reasons that I explained

16 to the Trial Chamber yesterday. However, as a result of the ruling by the

17 Trial Chamber, it seems that the Defence is now entitled to lead evidence

18 that public buildings including mosques were not targeted. That would,

19 therefore, seem to raise, for the first time, some relevance in relation

20 to whether indeed mosques and other public buildings were targeted.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But may I ask you, you're specifically asking

22 for the library. It's not my recollection that the library was as such.

23 MR. IERACE: The basis upon which the Defence submitted to you

24 yesterday that the nontargeting of mosques was relevant was that the

25 nontargeting of such buildings was inconsistent with the existence of a

Page 13386

1 campaign against civilians in Sarajevo. That would seem to, given the

2 ruling, that would seem to open the door as to whether public buildings

3 indeed were targeted, not only under the command period of the accused,

4 but also the period preceding his command.

5 There is a second basis of relevance within that ruling. I

6 anticipate the evidence will be that the great majority of public

7 buildings which had symbolic significance, and I say that mindful of the

8 words of the Defence submission yesterday, were already destroyed by the

9 time that General Galic took over his command. And an evidence of that in

10 light of the ruling yesterday would now seem to be appropriate. In other

11 words --

12 JUDGE ORIE: Having heard the parties, the objection is denied.

13 So, please proceed.

14 MR. IERACE: Yes.

15 Q. Do you remember the library, sir?

16 A. Yes, I remember the library. I used to study there while I was at

17 university.

18 Q. The library was not only shelled but destroyed in 1992, wasn't it?

19 A. That's what was shown on television. I never went there to that

20 location, I mean during the war.

21 Q. Do you doubt it?

22 A. I don't doubt the fact. Everyone was talking about it. You are

23 talking about it. But I do doubt everything that was shown on that TV,

24 yes.

25 Q. Sir, the library was not very far from where you lived, was it, no

Page 13387

1 more than say 6 or 7 kilometres at the most?

2 A. Less than that, but that was part of the old town into which,

3 after the conflict breakout, it wasn't recommended to go, at least not for

4 the Serbs.

5 Q. Sir, I suggest to you that few events in Sarajevo in 1992 were

6 more widely known than the destruction of the library of Sarajevo. Do you

7 agree with that?

8 A. Yes, it was known. People talked about it. I sometimes doubted.

9 I didn't doubt that it was destroyed, but I didn't go to that area, to

10 that location.

11 Q. The library was an important symbol for the people of Sarajevo,

12 wasn't it? It was a source of pride.

13 A. Yes.

14 MR. IERACE: I ask the witness be shown a booklet which is opened

15 at a particular page to place on the ELMO. It consists of six colour

16 photographs. I have black and white copies for the Chamber.

17 THE REGISTRAR: Is there a number for that document, please.

18 MR. IERACE: Yes. The copies which will be the actual exhibit is

19 P3750. To assist the witness and the Trial Chamber, the copy to be shown

20 to the witness is in colour but not to be tendered. In due course, I will

21 provide colour copies to replace the black and white exhibit.

22 In order to assist the Trial Chamber, the page at which the

23 booklet is opened is the second of the three black and white pages.

24 Q. Sir, in these photographs, more particularly, in the centre

25 photograph, do we see the library as it was positioned on the banks of

Page 13388

1 Miljacka River?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Following its destruction, were there concerts held in the

4 blackened ruins of the library at various times during the war? In

5 particular, in the chamber that one sees to the centre of the page

6 slightly to the left.

7 A. I don't know. During the war, I only went once to a concert in a

8 theatre.

9 Q. You never heard that there was a concert in the library during the

10 war?

11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I have to object. In relation

14 to the relevance, I don't see the connection between these concerts and

15 what the Prosecution is trying to prove.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Would you please respond, Mr. Ierace.

17 MR. IERACE: Yes, Mr. President, it makes emphatically the point

18 that the building was important for the -- its symbolic significance to

19 the people of Sarajevo, and even after its destruction, it maintained that

20 significance. And therefore, it is responsive to the Defence contention

21 that buildings one might expect to be targeted as part of a campaign

22 against civilians, in fact, had been targeted. And either destroyed

23 before General Galic commenced his command or were seriously damaged.

24 [Trial Chamber confers]

25 MR. IERACE: Having said that, Mr. President, I'm happy in the

Page 13389

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

Page 13390

1 interests of saving time to withdraw the last question.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Well, if you are happy to do so, please to do

3 so.

4 MR. IERACE: The witness has already said he wasn't aware.

5 Perhaps the Court usher could now turn to the second yellow-marked

6 page further on in the booklet and hold it up so I can briefly check that

7 it's the appropriate one. Yes, thank you.

8 Q. Sir, do you recognise the building which appears in the

9 photographs before you to be the remains of the post office of Sarajevo?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. That was shelled in 1992, wasn't it?

12 A. Yes, when the telephone lines were broken in one part of the city.

13 Q. That was a very important landmark of Sarajevo, wasn't it?

14 A. Yes.

15 MR. IERACE: Perhaps the Court usher could now turn to the last

16 yellow sticker which is earlier in the booklet. Yes, thank you.

17 Q. Sir, I suggest to you that the photographs on the screen at the

18 moment are the remains of a mosque at Kobilja Glava, which was shelled in

19 September of 1992. What do you say to that?

20 A. I really don't know about this. I don't know this building. I

21 never went to Kobilja Glava, and I have no reason not to believe this if

22 you say this is it. But I did not have the opportunity to see this. And

23 I don't know the building so that I could comment on it as I commented on

24 the post office.

25 Q. Thank you.

Page 13391

1 MR. IERACE: Then might that be returned.

2 Q. Now, moving to another topic, you told us that before you finally

3 decided to leave Sarajevo in July of 1994, you had already left several

4 times during the conflict and after the point that it was difficult to

5 leave. You said that the first time was in April 1993, and you obtained

6 the necessary permissions from the authorities. Is that correct?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. When were the other three times, if you could just give us the

9 dates at this stage? I think you said altogether there were four times

10 that you left before you finally left.

11 A. Until July of the same year, that is, from April to July 1993, and

12 then after that, I was no longer allowed to leave the city which made it

13 difficult for me to carry out the function that I was supposed to do and

14 to carry out the tasks that I was supposed to do.

15 Q. Do I understand you to be telling us that in fact you only left

16 once during the armed conflict before you finally left in July of 1994?

17 A. No. I left four times. I went -- I got out four times, apart

18 from the final departure.

19 Q. All right. Do you mean that those four occasions were all between

20 April and July of 1993?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. All right. You told us yesterday that on that first occasion, you

23 went to Ilidza and you stayed out of the city for only one hour. Is that

24 correct?

25 A. Yes.

Page 13392

1 Q. You said that whilst you were out, you learned for the first time

2 that Mojmilo was under the control of the presidency army. Who told you

3 that?

4 A. Well, I wouldn't be able to say specifically who told me. But

5 just like I knew that the town hall had been set alight, I found out from

6 people talking that Mojmilo was under the control of the presidency

7 forces.

8 Q. Were you given permission to leave the city for only one hour?

9 A. There was a convoy of lorries that was leaving. They were

10 supposed to bring from Kiseljak certain goods. This was the first

11 operation of the newly founded or the renewed Benefactor association, and

12 together with the general secretary of the society, we saw these lorries

13 off so that -- to see them go through the Muslim checkpoint and the Serb

14 checkpoint. And then we returned back into the city, naturally with all

15 the papers, all the documents, that were supposed to be gathered both from

16 the Muslim and from the Serb sides.

17 Q. My question was, were you given permission to leave the city for

18 only one hour? Is that the case?

19 A. No. There was no time limit, but it was issued for a particular

20 day. That is, we had to return the same day because the checkpoints had

21 to be notified of that.

22 Q. All right. You told us also --

23 MR. IERACE: Excuse me, Mr. President. Mr. President, I think it

24 might be appropriate to move into closed session for the next part of the

25 testimony.

Page 13413

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

Page 13414

1 whether they were firing at us or at you?" And you said: "At the time I

2 understood that sarcasm as comment on the fact that there were fierce

3 conflicts between the Muslims and the Croats." Do you remember giving

4 that evidence?

5 A. Yes, but I had said it slightly differently.

6 Q. I've just read to you the English translation of your evidence.

7 You, in fact, don't know which forces were responsible for

8 shelling that humanitarian aid distribution, do you?

9 A. No, I don't.

10 Q. You also said yesterday that you saw some people wounded from a

11 shelling incident in Vasa Miskin Street. When was that?

12 A. On the 27th of May, 1992.

13 Q. Did you actually witness the shelling, or did you arrive at the

14 scene shortly after it?

15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, again, the

16 Defence is objecting here for chronological reasons. I thought that the

17 policy was that at least as far as the shellings were concerned, or the

18 firing, is that we would only focus on the period which is covered by the

19 indictment. In asking questions regarding the period which precedes this

20 period four or five months did not seem acceptable to us.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace.

22 MR. IERACE: Yes, Mr. President, I have two bases for asking the

23 question. The first is that much of the evidence which was drawn from

24 this witness yesterday in examination-in-chief in fact focussed on the

25 pre-indictment period. Beyond that, a considerable body of evidence was

Page 13415

1 not distinguished by the Defence as to whether it related to

2 pre-indictment events or during the indictment. To give you one simple

3 example, the witness was asked to indicate positions of certain military

4 units near where he lived, and the question which elicited that

5 information was in relation to the pre-indictment period.

6 Mr. President, the second basis is that the Prosecution case is

7 that the accused assumed responsibility for a pre-existing campaign of

8 shelling and sniping of civilians. So quite separate from the fact that

9 the Defence has thought it proper to elicit such evidence, it's relevant

10 anyway from the indictment itself and from the pretrial brief more

11 particularly of the Prosecution.

12 Perhaps another example is the evidence we've heard as to sniping

13 from the vicinity of the state hospital which clearly is pre-indictment.

14 [Trial Chamber confers]

15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] If I may have your leave, I

18 would like us to be very accurate because I believe if we read the

19 transcript carefully we again have one of the counts of the indictment

20 because we are told that the accused would have been responsible as such,

21 that he would have been responsible for a pre-existing campaign of

22 shelling and of sniping. Now, I do not believe that so far the

23 Prosecution had formulated in such a way. And now, what they are trying

24 to prove, responsibility under this form, formulating such a way seems

25 very dangerous to me.

Page 13416

1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace told us, at least it's how I understood

2 it, that the accused assumed -- let me just try to find this word. I know

3 that it was the word "assumed." "Assumed responsibility for a

4 pre-existing campaign." I understood that as a campaign did exist, and it

5 was continued, at least that's the words of the Prosecution. I did not

6 understand this to be any extension of the charges against General Galic.

7 I just conferred with my colleague, and both parties have asked

8 questions repeatedly on the pre-indictment period, and both parties have

9 explained that it's of importance to understand the conflict. The Chamber

10 has accepted this several times. It also will accept it now, also under

11 the circumstances just described by the Prosecution. At the same time,

12 the Chamber urges both parties to limit itself in going into too much

13 detail in this period.

14 Please proceed, Mr. Ierace.

15 MR. IERACE:

16 Q. Sir, did you arrive after the actual shelling, or did you witness

17 the actual shelling?

18 A. Immediately after the shelling.

19 Q. Would you please tell us what you saw.

20 A. A horrific picture.

21 Q. All right. I take it there were a number of -- were there a

22 number of bodies on the street?

23 A. Yes. If I don't have to, I would ask you, considering my state of

24 mind, going back to that particular incident upsets me a great deal. As

25 far as I understand, Mr. President said here that I am a patient, after

Page 13417

1 all. And really, if there are things that I don't have to say, then I

2 wouldn't go into describing this event because I have a visual memory and

3 it is very upsetting.

4 Q. Approximately how many dead and wounded did you see?

5 A. It would be very hard for me to tell you a figure. I saw

6 mutilated bodies, just at a glance, and it was enough for me not to look

7 any more. It happened right next to the building. If this is closed

8 session, then I may say this --

9 JUDGE ORIE: It's not closed session. But if you think you would

10 tell us something that should be told in closed session, then we first

11 will turn into private session at least so that your words are not

12 available to the outside world.

13 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, perhaps before we do that, I could

14 assist perhaps by directing the witness more to the relevant issue.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. There might be another question, so let's first

16 listen to the next question, and then you indicate whether you still would

17 prefer to go into private session or not. If so, please tell me. If not,

18 just answer the question.

19 Please proceed, Mr. Ierace.

20 MR. IERACE:

21 Q. I'm not asking you where it happened. I'm asking you for some

22 indication as to the number of casualties; in other words, the approximate

23 number of dead and wounded that you saw. If I could help you, was it more

24 or less than ten, whatever the number was?

25 A. I read in the papers officially the number published was that

Page 13418

1 there were more than that.

2 Q. I'm sorry. How many did you read in the paper?

3 JUDGE ORIE: Did I understand your answer well that you said that

4 the newspapers reported a number higher than ten? Because that's what you

5 were asked, whatever the number might have been.

6 Then may I ask you, was that in conformity with your own

7 observations of what you saw?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was not in a position to count. I

9 saw a scene, and I find it very difficult to look at blood anyway, not

10 even an injection. I find it hard. So immediately after that horrific

11 event, I entered a building which was nearby, so I didn't see, I could not

12 have seen the number of people who died. In any case, at that time, the

13 area was cordoned off so you were not able to come close to it.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Ierace.

15 MR. IERACE:

16 Q. Did it appear to you that the victims were civilians?

17 A. Yes. And there was talk about -- that these were civilians who

18 had been in a queue waiting for bread.

19 Q. Did it appear to you, from what you could see, that they had been

20 deliberately targeted?

21 A. I wouldn't be able to claim either way yes or no. I really don't

22 know.

23 Q. Was it consistent with your observations that they were civilians

24 who had been in a queue at the time that they were shelled?

25 A. Yes, some who were there, they told me that it was a queue for

Page 13419

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

Page 13420

1 bread.

2 Q. You, at that time, were a civilian. These people were civilians.

3 You were told they had been queueing for bread. What thoughts did you

4 have for your personal safety in those circumstances as you saw that?

5 A. Fear is an integral part of man's life, of one's way of life and

6 thought. And there is nobody who is free from fear under wartime

7 conditions. So in our case, everybody, and me, of course, included,

8 experienced fear, different kinds of fear.

9 Q. You've told us that it appeared to you the victims were civilians

10 as opposed to combatants. You have made abundantly clear to us that

11 today, ten years later, you were traumatized --

12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I'm not sure that this

15 testimony, that the witness has said civilian as opposed to a combatant.

16 That is, we all know in the beginning of the war especially, there

17 were -- that a majority of civilians were combatants, so when we talk

18 about these terms, combatant, I mean, the witness did not use this term,

19 and I'm afraid that it causes a confusion; hence the objection.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. It seems that Mr. Ierace added something when

21 he told the witness that the victims had a civilian appearance, and it

22 also seems that Mr. Piletta-Zanin seems to forget that the question was

23 about the appearance, and not about persons that would have both qualities

24 but showed only one at that time.

25 MR. IERACE: I'm happy to withdraw the question, Mr. President.

Page 13423

1 Re-examined by Mr. Piletta-Zanin:

2 Q. [Interpretation] And to the Witness, good afternoon once again.

3 I'd like first to make something quite clear. In the first place with

4 regard to the library building that was mentioned earlier, this library,

5 is it far from the central post office building? As far as I know, the

6 building that you saw some time ago, and do you know how far the two

7 buildings are from each other?

8 A. Well, a kilometre and something perhaps.

9 Q. Right. Can you tell us which are official buildings behind the

10 library, if there were any, that is?

11 A. I don't know.

12 Q. Thank you very much.

13 I'd like to go to the post office. You told us that after that

14 shelling, the telephone lines were cut off. So my question is as follows:

15 To your knowledge, which is the neighbourhood or neighbourhoods which were

16 affected by that particular shelling?

17 A. Specifically, it was the post office building. It was next to the

18 Miljacka, from the building. And if it was shelled as people said in

19 Sarajevo, that it had been shelled, then it could have been targeted

20 directly from what I know. But I do not know which area might have been

21 affected by that shelling.

22 Q. Witness, we are now in the early conflict days. Do you know which

23 means of communication did the groups of combatants in Sarajevo use?

24 MR. IERACE: I object, Mr. President. That does not arise out of

25 cross-examination.

Page 13424

1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, may I respond,

2 because in the witness's answer to the question concerning the shelling of

3 the post office building, this witness said that immediately after that,

4 telephone communication stopped. So the witness says that in times of

5 peace are civilian, but in times are military --

6 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President. He also said exactly the

7 same thing when he was examined in chief, so the Defence was aware of that

8 at that stage as well. And if needs be, I can find the reference.

9 JUDGE ORIE: I do not have the -- that specific part in my mind.

10 But let me just see whether it's of any use what we are doing.

11 Do you have any knowledge of the communication between the

12 combatants, different groups of combatants? Do you have any knowledge on

13 how they communicated?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I know what I saw in front of

15 the building that I lived in. As a rule, they had Motorolas with them.

16 JUDGE ORIE: But do you know anything about the functioning of it?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, the witness now testified that he

19 knows that Motorolas were used, and he also answered that he has no

20 specific knowledge on the functioning of the communications. If there's

21 any specific other question you'd like to ask, then one or two

22 specifically on the subject and directly related to what happened to the

23 post office.

24 Please proceed.

25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

Page 13425

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

Page 13426

1 Q. So the post office and the telephones. Do we agree on that,

2 Mr. President?

3 JUDGE ORIE: No, the issue was about the post office, and of

4 course telephones. But then of course we're not talking about Motorolas.

5 We are then talking about fixed telephone lines.

6 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I can give you that page reference.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, if you could give it to me, then I --

8 MR. IERACE: It's page --

9 JUDGE ORIE: What day? Was it yesterday?

10 MR. IERACE: Yesterday, page 13.311 at line 2.

11 "Q. Could you tell us, when we spoke about the facilities,

12 could you tell us whether during the war telephones operated in Sarajevo

13 during the war?

14 A. In the part of Sarajevo where I lived for a while, there

15 was no -- there were no telephones that were operating because the central

16 post office was destroyed.

17 So it was clearly raised and dealt with.

18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I shall move to another

19 subject, Mr. President.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

22 Q. Witness, I'd like to go now to the mortar, the mobile mortar that

23 you saw with your own eyes. Will you tell us in what state -- what state

24 of mind was your wife when she came to tell you about it and to invite you

25 to look at that mortar? Will you describe to us?

Page 13427

1 MR. IERACE: [Previous translation continues]...

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Ierace.

3 MR. IERACE: His evidence is not that that his wife came to tell

4 him about it, rather that she called out from where she was, as I

5 understood it.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps we first clarify this. The testimony is not

7 such that the one would exclude the other.

8 Please proceed.

9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you.

10 Q. Witness, how did this episode unfold? You told us, at least that

11 is how I understood it, that your wife told you that a mortar was firing

12 from a truck. Now, how did you receive this information? Could you tell

13 us that?

14 A. It was a very hard time, and there were very -- and there were

15 much more important things for me to pay attention to details. But in

16 Sarajevo, there were this general belief that one should disappear from

17 the area where television cameras turned up because something was about to

18 happen there.

19 Q. Excuse me, sorry. But what we want to know is how did you learn

20 about this, to earn the time? Did your wife call out to you? Did she

21 come to you or what? Just this short phase, how did that happen?

22 A. She came to fetch me.

23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Right. Mr. President, that is

24 what I believe I understood from the language, and we frequently have

25 these problems.

Page 13428

1 Q. When your wife, therefore, came to look for you, Witness, what

2 kind of state was she in? Could you describe it to us?

3 MR. IERACE: Mr. President.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Ierace.

5 MR. IERACE: I object. I draw your attention to the testimony

6 from yesterday, page 13.276, at line 15.

7 JUDGE ORIE: "It was late afternoon, and..." I'm just missing.

8 One moment, please.

9 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, that is examination-in-chief. And

10 these questions do not arise out of cross-examination. The witness gave

11 that explanation then as to what happened on this point. So my

12 fundamental objection is that the fact that an issue is dealt with in

13 cross-examination doesn't mean that the party calling the witness can

14 revisit that issue in a general sense.

15 JUDGE ORIE: I do agree. But the first question was just to

16 clarify an issue before we would have a next question because there might

17 have been some confusion about. And therefore, this first question is in

18 order to clarify the issue. And let me just read what is on the line you

19 just quoted. It reads: "It was late afternoon, and they called out to me

20 to come and see how mortar was firing shots." That's what the testimony

21 was.

22 MR. IERACE: Yes, yes.

23 JUDGE ORIE: And in my view, but I could misunderstand, and

24 perhaps should confer with my colleague first.

25 [Trial Chamber confers]

Page 13429

1 JUDGE ORIE: Both Judges, not being native English speakers,

2 understand this line such that that they called out to me to come and see

3 does not exclude that those who called out were visible for the person

4 that was called out. So it does not exclude in the view of the Judges

5 that this person -- well, let's say it not necessarily means that this

6 calling out was done from such a distance that the witness could not have

7 seen the persons calling out. And I think the next question, and that was

8 what it was all about, is the state of mind of his wife. And that, I

9 would say, responds to an issue that was very specifically dealt with in

10 cross-examination; that was the -- so the Chamber would allow such

11 questions, but to a limited extent. We are here confronted with a

12 situation where an issue had been dealt with with some superficiality and

13 then was dealt with in great depth in cross-examination. That would allow

14 for some additional questions for the Defence. Please proceed.

15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. But

16 if this will put the Prosecution's mind at ease, we shall be quite happy

17 if you ask those questions concerning the state of mind of the witness's

18 wife. If not, then the Defence will ask those questions.

19 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber allows you to put some questions.

20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you.

21 Q. Witness, will you tell us, at the time when you learned that fact

22 from the mouth of your wife, in what state was she in? What state of mind

23 was she in?

24 A. Well, I think she looked normal and slightly frightened.

25 Q. Thank you. I move on, but in relation to these same things,

Page 13430

1 another fact which emerged during your cross-examination, and that is the

2 existence of alarms. You spoke to us about alarms. I shall move to a

3 different channel. You spoke to us about alarms, whether the alarms,

4 whether the sirens, whether they were used regularly. And if yes, in

5 relation to what? Can you tell us that?

6 A. These were alarm -- the car alarms which when shooting or

7 detonations exploded on some cars, then they would switch on.

8 Q. Witness, are you telling us about mobile alarms? Is that it?

9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, I think there is some confusion.

10 Were you talking about theft alarms as you usually find them on

11 private cars?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's right, yes.

13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

14 Q. But these alarms, what were they meant for?

15 A. To protect against car theft.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Did I understand you well that because of perhaps the

17 air pressure or of a mortar being fired, at least an explosion close by,

18 that cars would shake a little bit and then the alarms would get off?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's right.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed.

21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. I'm

22 moving to another line of questioning.

23 Q. You spoke to us about your friend who was a doctor. Don't mention

24 his name. Who was wounded by, as he told you, by a neighbour. Now, the

25 question is as follows: Did he tell you the ethnic background of that

Page 13431

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

Page 13432

1 neighbour?

2 A. Well, one could guess it, but he didn't give a name.

3 Q. Very well. If this is something that one can guess, what were you

4 supposed to be able to guess in your understanding of this?

5 MR. IERACE: I object. That question has no proper basis,

6 Mr. President. Witness has indicated that he wasn't told. And from that

7 point on, it becomes entirely speculative. For a start, there has been no

8 suggestion of motive for the shooting. It would be extraordinary to

9 conclude from the bare fact that a person was shot by a neighbour that one

10 could deduce what the ethnic background of a neighbour was.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, the objection is sustained. Please proceed,

12 Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you.

14 Q. Witness, you told us several times about how difficult for you it

15 was to find streets because their names have changed. Was it done

16 systematically or are you talking about two or three exceptions, for

17 instance?

18 A. Almost all. There are no streets with names of Serbs, named after

19 Serbs. And before the war, there were quite a number of them in Sarajevo.

20 MR. IERACE: [Previous translation continues]...

21 JUDGE ORIE: I think the witness has repeatedly expressed his

22 difficulty in finding streets because of the change of names. And it's

23 not something that we heard for the first time in cross-examination. So

24 there would have been ample opportunity to ask this in chief.

25 Please proceed --

Page 13433

1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, very well. Thank you.

2 Q. Witness, you spoke to us of what happened in May 1992, and you

3 told us that you only had a glimpse, a fleeting look at the scene, and it

4 nevertheless brought back to mind very painful pictures, images. But did

5 you perhaps watch television or journalists who were present at that

6 moment who were near the scene of that incident or at the scene of the

7 incident?

8 A. One could see it later on on the screens, and that was in the wake

9 of the incident.

10 Q. And according to what you could see on your screens immediately

11 after the scene, was it what you had seen, Witness?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Thank you.

14 Do you have any reason whatsoever to think that you may know who

15 the authors of this attack could be?

16 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I object to the question.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

18 MR. IERACE: "Do you have reason whatsoever" does not -- invites a

19 range of speculation. Secondly, the question goes to responsibility. I

20 don't recall that cross-examination ventured into the area of knowledge of

21 responsibility, or indeed responsibility. Therefore, the question does

22 not arise from cross-examination.

23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I'm going to

24 respond in the following manner: Formally, no, but practically, yes

25 because the reason why Mr. Ierace was authorised to continue his line of

Page 13434

1 questioning, consistently saying that there was a shelling campaign that

2 preceded that a posteriori will imply the responsibility --

3 MR. IERACE: I withdraw that objection, Mr. President, and would

4 seek leave to ask further questions in cross-examination. And if you find

5 against me on the first basis of my objection.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The subject is not forbidden ground, but would

7 you please ask clear questions to the witness.

8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you.

9 JUDGE ORIE: I think your first question was whether he has any

10 knowledge. That would allow him to tell this Chamber who was -- who had

11 been firing the projectile that caused the events he observed. I think

12 that's the question.

13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] If this was a shell, yes.

14 Q. But who could have caused the attack?

15 JUDGE ORIE: No, not who could have caused. Everyone in the world

16 could have done that.

17 Do you have any knowledge, Mr. DP1, who fired --

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Just from what I read.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Not from your own knowledge.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, just from what I heard.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please move to your next subject.

22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you.

23 I just have to confer for one minute. Thank you.

24 [Defence counsel confer]

25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No further questions. Thank

Page 13438

1 from doing that.

2 And then my last words will be that we are quite aware that it's a

3 long trip to come from your country, come to the Hague. You've testified

4 for three consecutive days. You've answered the questions of the parties.

5 We will now see whether there were any additional questions to be put to

6 you by the Court because that's what I had forgotten. But it's always

7 better to find out even in a late stage. So there might be some

8 additional questions from the Judges now. And once you've answered them,

9 I'm going to thank you for giving answers to all these questions.

10 Questioned by the Court:

11 JUDGE EL MAHDI: Thank you, Mr. President.

12 [Interpretation] If you would, Witness, just a couple of points

13 that I would like to have clarified for my own information. I believe

14 that you said in your testimony that you were leaving -- you left the

15 house more or less every day, and you said that you had arranged a convoy,

16 that you had been involved in organising the second convoy that left the

17 city. Now, my question is the following: The petrol, how did you find

18 it? At the time, did you have a vehicle, or -- yes, could you please

19 answer about petrol.

20 A. No, I did not have a vehicle. And at that time, apart from people

21 with privileges, nobody was driving a car.

22 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Private persons, you mean

23 military persons, civilians, high officials? What do you mean by "private

24 persons"?

25 A. Your Honour, just the people you've just mentioned.

Page 13439

1 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

2 You said that there were some -- there were soldiers in uniform.

3 You mentioned the categories of soldiers. And if I understood you

4 correctly, there were at least one unit under the command of Juka Prazina,

5 which was -- they were dressed in black. And you also mentioned some

6 other units that were in camouflage uniforms, and some other who had or

7 wore Green Berets, if I'm not mistaken. Now, were all soldiers in

8 uniform?

9 A. From what I was able to see, and those who entered the buildings

10 that they were quartered in, a large number of troops gathered in a very

11 popular cafe in Sarajevo which was practically open throughout the war.

12 And they went there for -- in their spare time, and they were dressed

13 accordingly. And that's when I saw these different uniforms.

14 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Yes, I see. And you also said in

15 relation to the barricades that there were civilians who were holding

16 these barricades, these civilians. Now, how did you conclude that these

17 were civilians? How did you assess that? Was it according to what they

18 were wearing? Were they not bearing arms? Were they not carrying arms?

19 A. Well, to start with, and throughout the month of May, there were

20 many checkpoints in all the areas in the city. At that time, I only had

21 one route. It was just over a kilometre to my work. And at first, there

22 were two, then four, and then later on just one checkpoint. When people

23 who, as I understood, who wore civilian clothes, they would do checks, and

24 they were always accompanied by a person who was armed.

25 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] You mean policemen?

Page 13440

1 A. I'm not sure.

2 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Very well. Now, another topic,

3 please. You said in answer to a question that you were asked, you said in

4 relation to the destruction, you said that before July, before you

5 definitely left Sarajevo, you used the term, and I will use the term in

6 English which was used, that there was "much destruction." Now, could you

7 please, if you remember, do you make a distinction between destruction

8 that occurred in the city in the months of May, June, July 1992 and after

9 this period, following this period? When you say that there was "much

10 destruction" are you talking about systematic destruction, which went on

11 throughout the "conflict," or are you making a distinction between that

12 period and another period?

13 A. Yes, I do make a distinction. What I said was that there wasn't

14 much destruction in the part of town where I lived in relation to what I

15 saw when I went to Ilidza for the first time. However, I also said where

16 there were front lines, everything was scorched. And the real destruction

17 I only saw when I went to the airport and I went out to the airport on

18 several occasions for talks. And on that part of the front line, there

19 was much destruction, extreme destruction.

20 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Well, my question was whether do

21 you have an idea about distinguishing between one period and another? You

22 said -- when you say there was much destruction, are you saying that this

23 was throughout the period? Was it from May until July 1994?

24 A. In my opinion, and the way I felt it, the fiercest period, the

25 fiercest period of conflict, May, June, July, August, and even September

Page 13441

1 of 1992.

2 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

3 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Yes, I apologise. Just a very

4 brief question. In relation to your friend who was wounded by a bullet

5 and that you went to visit in the hospital, I understand that he didn't

6 tell you the name of his neighbour. But did he tell you if this person

7 was a soldier, a military person, or a civilian, or somebody that he had

8 some dispute with? Did he touch upon the subject at all?

9 A. If you will allow me, I would like to just elaborate a little and

10 answer you with precision. But if you don't want me to elaborate, I can

11 tell you that he didn't tell me neither. He simply told me that he had

12 been hit. He had been shot at by his neighbour.

13 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Witness.

14 JUDGE ORIE: I have a few questions for you as well. You told us

15 about trenches you had observed. I remember that you said ones in the

16 Stup area and ones on Trebevic. Is that correct?

17 A. Yes.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Were these the only times you personally saw the

19 trenches?

20 A. Yes.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Could you tell us with more precision at what

22 distance approximately you observed them? As I understood, you were in a

23 car at both occasions. Was it just next to the road or was it at a

24 distance, or could you inform us about that?

25 A. Considering that both times, the vehicle was shot at, that is, the

Page 13442

1 lorry that I was in was fired at, instinctively, I turned away because the

2 door was shot at off the vehicle that I was in. And then with amazement,

3 I realised that the demarcation line between the warring parties -- well,

4 I couldn't tell you exactly, completely accurately, within a metre. But

5 it wasn't even 50 or 70 metres away because the lorry was high and I was

6 able to see the line that -- how shall I put it, camouflaged partly also

7 because of the rain, it was possible to see the soil, the ground. And I

8 saw that as I was returning from Belgrade because on one occasion, during

9 the war, I had gone to Belgrade.

10 And the second time at the Stupska Petlja, I also had occasion to

11 see something because I had a very odd meeting with a BH Army soldier, an

12 out-of-the-ordinary meeting. I had the opportunity to see within a few

13 metres a shelter, or rather the place that this soldier was in because he

14 showed it to me. Saying that myself and all of the others on the other

15 side of the road should be eliminated because he was constantly being

16 shelled in this location.

17 JUDGE ORIE: So the second time you got off the car, and that's

18 when you saw the trenches?

19 A. Yes.

20 JUDGE ORIE: You described military people in the trenches. You

21 talked about camouflage uniforms when you were referring to Trebevic. You

22 were referring to a soldier when you were talking about Stupska Petlja, I

23 think. I hope I pronounce it well. Did you see any civilians at these

24 times, in the trenches?

25 A. No, no.

Page 13443

1 JUDGE ORIE: You also testified that civilians were rounded up and

2 that even one friend of you had to dig trenches for nine months at

3 Trebevic. Did you observe this personally, or is it what he told you?

4 A. This was a colleague of mine from when we were students. We used

5 to share a room. He was a cello player, and I saw his hands that was just

6 an old oak tree. That's what his hands looked like. I asked him: "What

7 happened to you?" And he told me on a daily basis for nine months he had

8 been going to dig the trenches. I have already given you the name. I

9 wouldn't like to repeat it again.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We don't have to repeat it.

11 So do I understand you well that if you are talking about

12 civilians that had to dig trenches, that what you told us is what you were

13 told that had happened since you described two occasions where you

14 personally saw trenches without any civilians and even kept by military

15 people at that moment, but many other occasions you told us about, that

16 is, what you heard, what other people told you about civilians digging

17 trenches? Is that correct?

18 A. Yes, yes. With the observation that I know specific people.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, yes, of course. It's not just general stories

20 but what specific people told you. Thank you very much for your answers.

21 I see that -- I wanted to start a thank you but it's not easy

22 because it seems that both parties have additional questions. But I think

23 it would be first for Mr. Piletta-Zanin. But, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, as you

24 know, it should be directly following from the subject covered by the

25 questions of the Judges. So if you first put your question to the

Page 13446

1 conclude the examination. You have been here for so long. You have come

2 from so far. I'd like to thank you for coming to The Hague. You've

3 answered all the questions, not only of the parties but also of the

4 Judges. And it's important for us to hear the testimony of those who have

5 been present during the relevant times and the relevant places. And I

6 would like to thank you for that. Thank you for coming.

7 Madam usher, could you please escort the witness out of the

8 courtroom.

9 [The witness withdrew]

10 JUDGE ORIE: Then I'll just take one minute to indicate to the

11 parties what the Chamber intends to do after the break. I'll first go

12 through a few outstanding issues, but very briefly, I'm not in a position

13 to say to the parties that they should answer yes or no. But if it would

14 come as close to that, it would be much appreciated. Then before we start

15 the examination of the next witness, first, a decision has to be taken in

16 respect of this witness. And therefore, we will for some time be in

17 closed session, and I'll explain exactly what we'll do, closed session

18 then. But we'll follow to some extent a suggestion made yesterday.

19 The final thing I'd like now to do is deal with the exhibits of

20 Witness DP1 and then have a break until 10 minutes past 6.00.

21 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit D1700, under seal, pseudonym sheet.

22 Exhibit D1755 under seal, map marked by witness. Exhibit P3750, photos of

23 various buildings in Sarajevo, black and white.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Did I understand that you wanted to tender the

25 original coloured ones? No.

Page 13447

1 MR. IERACE: That's an original exhibit, Mr. President. At this

2 stage, the black and white, and when we receive a colour copy, I'll change

3 them over. I'll seek to change them over.

4 JUDGE ORIE: So at this very moment, it's black and white, and

5 then it will be colour.

6 And then we will adjourn until 10 minutes past 6.00. I apologise

7 for the interpreters that we went on a bit longer; on the other hand, the

8 next term will be shorter.

9 --- Recess taken at 5.49 p.m.

10 --- On resuming at 6.10 p.m.

11 JUDGE ORIE: It is not because I have difficulties in refinding my

12 rhythm, but because we needed 20 minutes to consider whether the exhibits

13 were admitted into evidence. They are admitted since there were no

14 objections.

15 Before we continue with the examination of the next witness, I

16 would like to go through a list of issues very quickly, just in order to

17 make sure that there are no major outstanding difficulties. We discussed

18 at an earlier stage the 130 entries on the exhibit list that were not at

19 that time yet disclosed. Has this matter been solved, or has it not?

20 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the documents that

21 were not on the exhibit lists were put on the additional list of the 8th

22 of October, 2002.

23 JUDGE ORIE: That would have been my second question. But my

24 first question was whether the entries on the exhibit list that were not

25 yet disclosed, and there was some confusion about whether or not they were

Page 13448

1 disclosed or not, whether there have been any additional copies made. I

2 think that's on the 130 pages where I indicated I would copy them myself

3 if necessary.

4 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] I have done all that. I mean, my

5 learned friend is here.

6 MR. IERACE: We are still in the process of checking those

7 documents, Mr. President. There were some more documents provided by the

8 Defense, Mr. President.

9 JUDGE ORIE: I had 130 written down.

10 MR. IERACE: There were two lists, the 130, and then there were an

11 additional 85 documents provided which didn't seem to be on the exhibit

12 list.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that's the second issue just raised. And

14 although I have not seen it yet, but I was informed that an additional

15 list has been filed so that documents disclosed did not appear yet on the

16 list do appear now on the list, at least there's an additional list on

17 which they might appear. And I take it that you continue checking --

18 MR. IERACE: Yes. We have no complaint at this stage,

19 Mr. President, on either of those issues.

20 JUDGE ORIE: That's what the Chamber likes to hear.

21 Then we had problem about four books, five books, six books. Has

22 that problem been solved?

23 MR. IERACE: It transpired, I think, that there were five not six,

24 and again we have received some further information from the Defence, and

25 we have no complaint at this stage.

Page 13449

1 JUDGE ORIE: No complaints. Okay, that's fine.

2 Then there was a problem in reaching, or at least finding the

3 addresses of some witnesses, some suggestions were made by the Prosecution

4 how to find these addresses. These were, I would say, international

5 witnesses. Has this -- has any progress been made in that respect?

6 MR. IERACE: The Defence sent us a letter listing I think it was

7 about six people, most of whom are military. We haven't yet responded to

8 that letter other than the suggestion made in open court that they

9 approach the militaries. I will respond to that letter and update that

10 with specific information if we have it. And I'll do that this week.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you very much.

12 Then there was an issue of the authenticity of documents on the

13 Defence lists, the authenticity problem was that the Prosecution sought

14 ways to be informed about the sources of these documents, and they were

15 not fully satisfied with Banja Luka as a possible source because according

16 to the information the Prosecution got, the documents were deposited at

17 Banja Luka coming from the Defence, so therefore there was a request to

18 contact the investigators of the Defence. Has any progress been made in

19 that respect?

20 MR. IERACE: No, Mr. President. It was discussed at a meeting

21 with the Defence last Friday and also this week, and there hasn't been any

22 progress made on that. We have made clear to the Defence what we require,

23 the details of where each document was obtained, sufficient detail, to

24 enable the Prosecution to go to those places and make its own inquiries so

25 it can satisfy itself that the documents indeed are authentic. We had

Page 13450

1 proposed the idea of the investigators meeting. We're told that the

2 Defence investigator will next be in The Hague on the 17th of October. I

3 am not confident that that meeting will achieve the purpose. It seems to

4 me that the appropriate way, if the Defence wishes to take all reasonable

5 steps to secure our agreement as to the authenticity, the appropriate

6 method is for the Defence tell us in writing where each exhibit was

7 obtained from in that sufficient detail.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Pilipovic, I saw you nodding no, that's just for

9 the transcript. But could you please respond.

10 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we discussed this

11 problem at the two meetings that we had, and in principle, I believe we

12 agreed that investigators should meet. Now that the request of the

13 Defence should inform the -- our learned friends in writing where the

14 documents have come from, I think I have repeated several times that it

15 was [indiscernible] Nevesinje, Trebinje, but had my learned friends asked

16 me in time, they said they needed it in writing, then we would have done

17 that. But we have agreed in principle that investigators should meet, if

18 my memory serves me well. And we also met on Monday and last week, and

19 that was our understanding. But if you want the Defence to submit in

20 writing, that presents no problem. But my learned friends did not put

21 such a request to us in advance. The request was that the investigators

22 meet and we agreed that it would happen, and I already said that I believe

23 the investigator of the Defence will be coming to The Hague on the 17th of

24 October.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. There still seems to be some confusion or

Page 13451

1 disagreement on how to solve it. As I indicated last week, if the parties

2 do not solve it, there will be a meeting. That means that that meeting

3 will take place tomorrow at 12.00, unless the parties have informed me by

4 11.00 that the problem has been solved. I see that both parties seem to

5 have come close to each other, and there might be some misunderstanding,

6 if there's no misunderstanding but just disagreement, it's useful that the

7 meeting takes place. If there's no disagreement, you've got two hours

8 tomorrow morning to find out that there's no disagreement, and you can

9 spare yourself the time to meet with me, or with the senior legal officer.

10 Next issue is whether any progress has been made in compromising

11 on stipulated facts. Perhaps I'll now ask first to Mr. Piletta-Zanin or

12 Ms. Pilipovic to deal with that, and then ask for Mr. Ierace to respond.

13 Any progress made?

14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President, the first

15 question about tomorrow's meeting at noon, could the Prosecution please

16 provide the interpretation services because last time it didn't go well.

17 So as for the second thing, we suggested --

18 JUDGE ORIE: Let me just, it's a meeting on the request of the

19 Chamber. So the Chamber will decide whether there's a need for

20 translation during this meeting.

21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you.

22 JUDGE ORIE: And the presence of at least one counsel who speaks

23 and understands one of the official languages of the Tribunal is

24 specifically in order to make sure that whenever there's any need for an

25 untranslated communication, that it will be possible without losing any

Page 13452

1 rights for the Defence.

2 Please proceed.

3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. We have

4 not made now any progress regarding the stipulated facts. We only talked

5 about a procedure which would mean that the Prosecution tells us what they

6 think. That would not have to be in dispute from their point of view, and

7 then we would answer, yes, we accept this, we cannot accept that, and so

8 on and so forth. And it seems that the methodology does not seem to be

9 agreeable to the Prosecution, so at the moment, we are -- it seems that we

10 are at an impasse.

11 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I would be grateful for the assistance

12 of the Trial Chamber on that issue as well. Prior to the commencement of

13 the trial, the Prosecution's -- well, I personally spent in excess of 20

14 hours with the Defence putting forward facts for their consideration.

15 That exercise did not end well. I have said to the Defence that now that

16 the Prosecution has presented its case, perhaps they can indicate to us

17 which parts of the case they agree with. And the response has been, well,

18 no, even though we've presented our case, it's for us to guess what is

19 agreed and for us to put to them what should be agreed. I don't think

20 there's any prospect of the parties advancing the agreed facts beyond what

21 was filed in November. But perhaps with the assistance of the Trial

22 Chamber, we could accelerate it.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Let's meet tomorrow morning at 9.00 and discuss this

24 issue, either with the senior legal officer or myself. Tomorrow morning,

25 9.00, we see whether any progress can be made between the parties. The

Page 13453

1 Chamber will inform you about the place where we'll meet. It might be in

2 my chambers.

3 Then another issue, a very technical one, is that the Defence has

4 asked for videolink, although it was categorised as a protective measure,

5 I think videolink is not a protective measure. So we can deal with it in

6 open session. In the submission made on the 20th of September, it was

7 indicated that the videolink would be needed between the 25th of October

8 and the 6th of November. In the request for protective measures, we find

9 that the videolink would be needed between the 28th of October, which is

10 three days later, up until the 1st of November. And -- and that's what

11 causes the problems, be at two different places, one in Belgrade and one

12 in Sarajevo. For technical reasons it might not be possible to have a

13 videolink on two different locations -- so it's not possible to have

14 videolinks in two places in such a short period of time, so the Defence is

15 invited to reschedule, especially the videolink witnesses and to keep in

16 close contact with the registry. Just inform you, the transfer of the

17 videolink from Belgrade to Sarajevo would need at least two days. So the

18 schedule has to be adapted in that respect.

19 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, just before we leave that topic, the

20 Prosecution has not yet formally responded to that, but I can say this:

21 That the Prosecution was required to obtain medical certificates and the

22 like in order to substantiate its request for videolink. The basis for

23 the Defence request in every case, I think, is health problems. We have

24 not seen any medical reports. It might expedite matters if you thought it

25 appropriate at this stage that medical reports be obtained. I note that

Page 13454

1 two of the witnesses are in wheelchairs. One of the Prosecution witnesses

2 was in a wheelchair and gave live evidence. But again, it may be that the

3 Prosecution won't take a hard approach on that, but we simply need proper

4 substantiating material. And I appreciate we're in open session, but

5 being a little circumspect, having regard to some of the names, I think it

6 would be entirely appropriate to have that medical evidence.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. This was not a decision on the request of

8 videolink. I hope that that's clear. But I just pointed at some

9 technical problems if the Chamber would allow for the -- for a videolink.

10 We are still considering the reasons. And of course, we'll give a

11 decision in due course. But just to inform the Defence that the Chamber

12 remembers that once when videolink was asked for some person that had

13 underwent surgery, the Chamber wants to have further information as to the

14 kind of surgery and the time of recovery needed to be moving around again.

15 So that, of course, that's also the reason why it takes a bit more time

16 that the Chamber tries to compare carefully what we asked from the

17 Prosecution in order to ask not more but not less from the Defence as

18 well.

19 That's the videolink, especially the technical, on whether the

20 request would be granted. Yes, Ms. Pilipovic.

21 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I

22 understand that the videolink will depend on the Chamber's decision. What

23 I wish to say, however, is the Defence would like to have all the

24 videolink witnesses in Sarajevo. And I think that should be the 4th and

25 the 5th of November. That was Monday and Tuesday. And if need be, we

Page 13455

1 shall provide the medical recommendation. Our learned friends have not

2 told us that they require that.

3 JUDGE ORIE: In general, you could expect that the Chamber would

4 choose, unless there are differences, the same attitude to the Defence as

5 we did to the Prosecution. And of course, if the Prosecution provided

6 some information, there was no need to ask for it. So perhaps you could

7 orient yourself also on what information was provided without being asked

8 for it by the Chamber.

9 So you would say you would concentrate anyhow on Sarajevo. That

10 would at least make things less complicated. Yes.

11 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. One of the

12 witnesses is an invalid. He's in a wheelchair, and it really would be

13 very difficult for him, and he would also need somebody to -- he would

14 also need a companion, and I think it would be too expensive for him to

15 come to The Hague. The second one has a heart condition, and the third

16 one has high sugar. We thought he would be a live witness here, however

17 because of his health complaints --

18 JUDGE ORIE: I take it that you prepare for the proper

19 information, that if the Chamber would ask you to provide it, that it will

20 be there. Let's not discuss now the details because that's not the

21 purpose of this short -- it's not a formal Status Conference but it looks

22 a bit like.

23 I would like to turn into closed session. Private session will

24 do. I am making the same mistakes again and again.

25 [Private session]