021023ED

Page 14266

1 Wednesday, 23 October 2002

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 2.25 p.m.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. Good afternoon. This is Case

7 Number IT-98-29-T, the Prosecutor versus Stanislav Galic.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.

9 Before we start, I was informed that you, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, would

10 like to address the Chamber briefly. I suggest that we do that after the

11 examination of Witness DP6. And before we start with the examination of

12 Witness DP6, I perhaps owe an explanation to everyone in and around this

13 courtroom.

14 Being confronted yesterday at the very end of the morning session

15 with a request of the Prosecution, I indicated that the Chamber would try

16 to find out whether Witness DP6 was still available and what the merits

17 were of the request. We did that quickly. We found out that Witness DP6

18 was scheduled to leave this morning, and, therefore, the Chamber gave it a

19 great effort to see whether DP6 could be additionally cross-examined

20 yesterday afternoon by the Prosecution. That caused everyone to stand

21 by -- and, General Galic, that includes you. I know that you have been

22 transported from the detention facility to the building of the Tribunal --

23 this was all done in order to see whether we could save time and whether

24 we could allow the witness of which we all know that he has been waiting

25 for quite a considerable time, and that he testified for a couple of days

Page 14267

1 in this court, whether we could allow him to leave this morning.

2 Finally, not everyone could be reached. And since it is

3 impossible to examine a witness in the absence of Defence counsel, finally

4 we had to establish that what we tried to do was not possible yesterday in

5 the afternoon. I apologise -- well, at least I regret that all those who

6 were standby, who were here in this courtroom -- of course, the Judges

7 even, although not in this courtroom, were also standby in order to see

8 whether we could achieve what we intended to do. We highly regret that

9 you were here, finally, for nothing. I would like to explain this to

10 everyone before we start with the examination of Witness DP6.

11 The Prosecution, the Chamber has decided that it gives the

12 Prosecution an opportunity to put further questions in cross-examination

13 to Witness DP6. Since the summary of the testimony of Witness DP4 did not

14 indicate a -- an issue on which the Defence specifically asked the witness

15 about an issue that -- an issue that could have played a role in the zone

16 of responsibility as we heard his testimony of Witness DP6, and,

17 therefore, the Prosecution is allowed to put additional questions to

18 Witness DP6.

19 I take it that Mr. Usher is --

20 [Trial Chamber confers]

21 JUDGE ORIE: I take it that the Prosecution understands that

22 questions are allowed in respect of this issue. Yes.

23 The usher left the courtroom, so I take it that he is trying to

24 escort DP6 into the courtroom. In respect of Witness DP6, facial

25 distortion is in effect as a protective measure and a pseudonym. So if

Page 14268

1 facial distortion is effective at this very moment, the witness could be

2 brought in. Could I get a confirmation from the technical booth that

3 facial distortion is effective. It is.

4 Please, Mr. Usher, escort Mr. DP6 into the courtroom.

5 [The witness entered court]

6 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon. Good afternoon. Can you hear me in

7 a language you understand?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can.

9 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]...I will shortly

10 explain to you that a few questions might be put to you, although you

11 concluded your testimony before. It is for procedural reasons that the

12 Chamber has decided that the Prosecution is allowed to put additional

13 questions to you.

14 We tried to do everything, as you may have noticed, to continue

15 your examination yesterday in the afternoon so that you could leave as it

16 was scheduled this morning. Unfortunately, we could not proceed. We very

17 much wished to do so, but we finally could not since Defence counsel were

18 not available at that time. That is the reason why we had to ask you to

19 leave one day later. We really very much regret that we had to ask this

20 to you.

21 Mr. Ierace, please proceed.

22 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

24 MR. IERACE: Perhaps, Mr. President, just before my learned

25 colleague speaks, to save time, could the Registrar please obtain ready to

Page 14269

1 give to the witness Exhibit D1760. Thank you.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, one thing

4 chronologically so as to make things clear. I will speak later, but we

5 think that the rights of the Defence are breached with this delay, but I

6 will speak on this later on. We shall participate in this, but we wish to

7 indicate this clearly.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, could you already start or do you need

9 the exhibit?

10 MR. IERACE: I think I can start, Mr. President.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed.

12 WITNESS: WITNESS DP6 [Resumed]

13 [Witness answered through interpreter]

14 Further cross-examined by Mr. Ierace:

15 Q. Sir, you told us on the 16th of October that you did not

16 personally have any contact with UNPROFOR representatives. Do you

17 remember giving that evidence?

18 A. Well, I didn't have any contact with the UN.

19 Q. You were asked whether in your locality and during the conflict

20 there were any UNPROFOR forces there, and you said that they came to the

21 student hostels from time to time. Do you remember saying that?

22 A. Sure.

23 Q. You added that they went to the student hostels from time to time

24 in August or September. Do you recall saying that?

25 A. 1992, is it?

Page 14270

1 Q. You did not give a year and that was my next question. I take it

2 that was 1992.

3 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness speak up, please. We could

4 not hear his answer.

5 JUDGE ORIE: The interpreters can not hear you. Could you please

6 speak a bit more in the microphone, Mr. DP6. Yes. Thank you very much.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am sorry.

8 MR. IERACE:

9 Q. Did you answer yes to that question? I think I heard you say

10 "Da."

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Now, you also gave some evidence about the old people's home. You

13 indicated its position on a photograph, and you also indicated that it was

14 on your portion of the front line, that is, the portion of the front line

15 which was the responsibility of the company that you commanded. Is that

16 correct?

17 A. It is.

18 Q. You told us on the 16th of October that the old people's home was

19 shelled in June, perhaps between 15th and 20th of June, you couldn't

20 recall the date exactly. Do you remember giving that evidence?

21 A. I do.

22 Q. Was that June of 1992?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And you said that the same thing happened in July, another shell

25 hit the old people's home. Is that correct?

Page 14271

1 A. I didn't say it was in July -- that in July a shell fell. Shells

2 were falling until July. And in July, I remember it well, that the old

3 people were killed from infantry weapons in July. The first shell hit the

4 old people's home in mid-June, and six old people were killed on that

5 occasion.

6 Q. Yes, and I think your words were, "and the same thing happened in

7 July, there was another shell that hit the old people's home."

8 Is that correct?

9 A. Yes, there was one in July. But I think I said that -- I mean, in

10 July also a few old people were killed from infantry weapons. But shells

11 were falling. But the first one hit the old people's home in mid-June

12 1992, the first shell. I know that very well, although I cannot remember

13 the exact date.

14 Q. Whenever the exact dates were, I take it you are referring to June

15 and July of 1992. Is that correct?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. All right. Now, on the 10th of September 1992 at 12.00 mid-day,

18 was that home evacuated?

19 A. No. The old people's home was never evacuated -- I mean in

20 Nedzarici. The old people in Nedzarici was there functioning until the

21 end of the war.

22 Q. Are you telling us that old people continued to live in that

23 building throughout the war?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. The home on the front line; is that correct?

Page 14272

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. So --

3 A. It was right behind the Centre for the Blind. It wasn't on the

4 front line, but some 60, 70 metres away from it.

5 Q. Sir, why did that happen? Given that the building was shelled --

6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I object to the

7 question. The question doesn't make sense.

8 MR. IERACE: I haven't finished the question.

9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] What is it, why was it -- why

10 did that happen? It doesn't make sense; the fact that old people were

11 there for the duration of the war. I think that Mr. Ierace should make

12 more precise the wording of his question.

13 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, as I have already indicated twice, I

14 haven't finished asking the question.

15 Q. Why did that happen? Given that it was shelled with resulting

16 casualties in June and July of 1992, why was it not evacuated?

17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I object to the

18 question. I object to it because in line with Rules, Mr. Ierace should

19 first check whether this witness can know such a thing, if there was

20 manager of this. Otherwise, it invites a hypothetical answer.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. DP6, do you know why the inhabitants of the

22 elderly people's home were not evacuated after the building was shelled?

23 Do you know it?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I really don't know why and what

25 for. All I know is that they were there.

Page 14273

1 JUDGE ORIE: No one ever told you why they were not evacuated?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know that in the early days of the

3 war, the Jews left for Belgrade. That is what I heard from Milena who

4 worked there. Perhaps it was after the war that I heard it. She worked

5 in the old people's home and she was the manager. But why these people

6 were not evacuated, I really don't know.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Ierace.

8 MR. IERACE:

9 Q. Were they living in the basement of the building during the

10 conflict?

11 A. They were living on the ground floor, the first floor. Those old

12 people who had stayed there. Before the war they were about -- I don't

13 know really -- some 250, 300. But as the time went by, naturally old men,

14 people died, people died of old age, some were killed, so the number

15 declined steadily. And they were living there. And truth to tell, I

16 didn't go into their rooms. All I know is that they usually spent their

17 time on the ground floor.

18 Q. By the time you were wounded in February of 1993, how many

19 civilian old people were there living in that building?

20 A. Why, I don't know. I couldn't give you the number. There must

21 have been around 150 or plus/minus. I don't really know the exact

22 number. I wasn't really interested to know, so I don't know exactly.

23 Q. Why were you not interested to know, given that you were the

24 commander of the company that had control of that part of the front line?

25 A. Well, I didn't try that because Mrs. Milena - and she was the

Page 14274

1 director of the old people's home - she was the one who looked after

2 them. Only if somebody was wounded and killed and had to be taken out,

3 then she would ask us to help her. And we always were there to come -- to

4 lend her a hand to get those people out.

5 JUDGE ORIE: I see that the -- General Galic, that you want to

6 address us, but is there any technical problem?

7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No, no, no. I merely wanted to

8 talk to my counsel, if I may. Thank you.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

10 [Defence counsel and accused confers]

11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Your Honours.

12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.

14 Mr. Ierace, before I ask you to proceed, we have heard a lot of

15 questions now. I can't imagine that these were introductory questions to

16 the issue for which you asked specifically to re-examine the witness.

17 Could you come to your point because we heard a lot about the building

18 now, but not on the specific issue you raised in your request.

19 MR. IERACE: There are two aspects in turn to this particular

20 aspect, Mr. President, having regard to --

21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President.

22 JUDGE ORIE: I was asking something to Mr. Ierace, and I will ask

23 him to respond, unless you would like to say that the witness should take

24 his earphones off at this very moment.

25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Exactly. Exactly. I think we

Page 14275

1 should apply the same procedure, that the witness be asked to remove his

2 headsets. Thank you.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could you take off your headsets.

4 Mr. Ierace, please proceed.

5 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President. In the interest of saving

6 time, I will just continue with the questioning. I obviously accept what

7 you have said.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed. Could you -- thank you, Mr. DP6.

9 MR. IERACE:

10 Q. At any stage when you were in command of the forces covering that

11 building, did you utilise any part of the building for military purposes?

12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, this type of

13 question could have been -- could have been asked very well during the

14 regular examination of this witness. This is really, really, really not

15 acceptable at this stage.

16 [Trial Chamber confers]

17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, we just invited you to come to your

18 point. Again, if this would be the final introductory question, we will

19 allow you, but then please come to the issue you raised.

20 MR. IERACE: I think that the answer the witness gave to the

21 question was "no."

22 JUDGE ORIE: Is that correct, Mr. DP6? You said that the building

23 was never used for military purposes. I didn't hear it.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did say that, yes.

25 MR. IERACE:

Page 14276

1 Q. At any stage, was the building used as an observation post by the

2 United Nations?

3 A. The United Nations came from time to time and used that old

4 people's home as an observation point. I know they went up to the upper

5 floor. I didn't -- upper floors. I didn't -- I did not see them, but I

6 saw their vehicles in front of the old people's home.

7 Q. So, therefore, what you saw were UN vehicles in front of the old

8 people's home, even though you never saw the UN individuals themselves.

9 Is that correct?

10 A. I did see these people, but they went upstairs to the upper floors

11 of the old people's home and they were probably observing, they were

12 checking something. I don't know because I was not with them. Only when

13 they would come to the old people's home, they weren't shooting at -- in

14 that direction.

15 Q. Whereabouts did you see them? Did you see them going into the

16 building, leaving the building, for instance?

17 A. I saw them come in; I saw them come out.

18 Q. And is that all you saw of them?

19 A. That's all I saw.

20 Q. Did you receive any information from your superiors as to whether

21 they should be permitted to have access to that part of the front line

22 that you commanded?

23 A. Yes. From the command of the battalion, we would hear the --

24 UNPROFOR would come to the old people's home, that they would be there,

25 spend some time and that's it.

Page 14277

1 Q. How much notice did you receive of their arrival from your

2 battalion commander? In other words, how long before they arrived were

3 you notified?

4 A. Well, maybe just before they would come, the commander of the

5 battalion would let us know maybe an hour to an hour and a half before

6 their arrival. I don't remember any more. But probably as they were

7 approaching the command post. I don't really know, but this is when they

8 would let us know.

9 Q. Given that you only saw them enter the building and retreat from

10 the building, you do not know from your own observations what they did in

11 the building. Is that correct?

12 A. I don't know.

13 Q. Do you mean you don't know what they did in the building; is that

14 what you are saying? Yes or no.

15 A. I don't know. Of course, yeah, yeah, yeah.

16 Q. Now, to your knowledge, was there an observation post operated by

17 UNPROFOR in Nedzarici in 1992?

18 A. I really don't know if there was observation posts. But I know

19 that it would come from time to time to the old people's home, and they

20 would observe whatever they were observing. I really don't know what is

21 it they were doing there. But to tell you there was a special post, I

22 really couldn't tell you.

23 Q. All right. Did you have any contact with [redacted]between

24 September, the beginning of September 1992 and February 1993 when you were

25 wounded?

Page 14278

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

Page 14279

1 A. No.

2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I do not see the pertinence in

5 this question with regards to the issue that the accusations should limit

6 itself. I do not see why one is asking questions about observation posts

7 held by the UN. And I don't even remember, I don't even know myself, who

8 is [redacted].

9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, I ask the witness to take off his

10 headphones.

11 MR. IERACE: Yes, I am happy to assist my learned colleague. He

12 will find in response to his statement just made that he doesn't even know

13 himself who is [redacted], but if he looks under his filing of Rule

14 65 ter, he will see that he is Defence witness number 36.

15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes. But, Mr. President, I

16 would really like to be understood correctly. I do not know what this

17 [redacted], and I am extremely grateful to the accusation of

18 reminding me of this --

19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, first of all, may I ask -- have

20 protective measures have been granted in respect of the witness --

21 MR. IERACE: Yes.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Could then a redaction be made as to the -- on from

23 where the name for the first time appears.

24 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, if the Prosecution knows who this person is, if

25 the Defence knows who this person is, and if the witness doesn't say,

Page 14280

1 "what are you talking about," then it is not necessary to ask anything

2 else. It seems, as far as I understand, clear that the Defence knows what

3 person the Prosecution refers to and it seems that the witness knows. So,

4 therefore, I think there is no reason to ask Mr. Ierace to explain that.

5 But we were still listening to Mr. Ierace explaining the relevance of his

6 questions in respect of this person of which the name just has been

7 redacted.

8 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, would you like me to give that

9 explanation now?

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please.

11 MR. IERACE: In material disclosed to the Defence is a diary of

12 [redacted] who was a senior subordinate in the Sarajevo Romanija

13 Corps. An entry in that diary for the 10th of September, 1992, reads in

14 part, "evacuation of old people's home at 1200 hours."

15 Mr. President, that concludes my questions, although I would be

16 grateful if the -- I do press that question and the answer given by the

17 witness.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

19 [Trial Chamber confers]

20 JUDGE ORIE: Did the witness answer the question, as a matter of

21 fact?

22 MR. IERACE: Yes. He answered, "no."

23 JUDGE ORIE: He answered no. Then if that concludes your

24 questions. Then, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, as usual, if there are any questions

25 that came up as a result from the cross-examination --

Page 14281

1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, what line of questions?

3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] There are some.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Witness, could you please put your

5 headphones on again.

6 Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

7 Further re-examination by Mr. Piletta-Zanin:

8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

9 Q. Witness, you explained to us that you were examined in length

10 about the old people's home. What can you tell us with what you know with

11 regards to the way people lived at the time, that is to say, during the

12 war? For instance, were they obliged to hide, to protect themselves from

13 shots, from --

14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I will withdraw my examples.

15 MR. IERACE: I object to the question anyway, Mr. President. That

16 doesn't arise out of cross-examination. The --

17 JUDGE ORIE: I would say that you have put questions to the

18 witness in respect of where the people who inhabited the building lived,

19 and I think that is an issue, a specific issue. So the objection is

20 denied.

21 Please proceed, Mr. Ierace.

22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

23 Q. Sir, can you tell this Chamber, please, if you know, how did these

24 people lived at the time, these elderly, and if you can give us some

25 details, we would appreciate it.

Page 14282

1 A. In the old people's home, in 1992, as I said earlier, there were

2 approximately 250 to 300 elderly. I don't know any more. I know this

3 because Mrs. Milena related this to me, some of the Jews had left, and

4 other people who could go somewhere, they left. So they were left with

5 150 people, from 100 to 150 elderly.

6 So I know that during the first year of the war in 1992, these

7 elderly who were mobile would go through Nedzarici, they would leave the

8 home, and they would try to get some water from the well. And they would

9 go to the gardens of the people who had some gardens, the inhabitants of

10 the area, and I know that they would receive some food and vegetables from

11 the people. And also the army -- whenever the army would distribute food

12 to us, meals, they would come to distribute meals to us, we would also

13 share our meals with the elderly. We would give them one-third of our

14 meals so they would have something to eat. And this was up until the time

15 where Mrs. Milena -- I think that it was at the end of 1992, early 1993,

16 somebody from the UNPROFOR came. And I know that that's when the first

17 humanitarian aid started arriving. And it was a bit easier for them to

18 survive that way.

19 So those who were mobile, the elderly who could move around walk

20 about up until the time the humanitarian aid started arriving, they would

21 gather some vegetables, they would go and come back. And I know they were

22 receiving something from the Ilijas municipality and also there was a

23 priest, I think his name was Momo, he was also helping.

24 Q. Thank you. No more questions regarding these old people's home,

25 Witness.

Page 14283

1 You told us that the elderly belonging to the ethnicity or the

2 culture -- I don't even know how to call it anymore -- but who were

3 Jewish, Jewish ethnicity, that they had left. Now, I would like to ask

4 you the following questions: Which are the ethnicities that left? People

5 belonging to which ethnicities remained in the home after the departure of

6 the Jews?

7 A. There were all types of ethnicity Muslim, Serbs, and Croats. But

8 I would like to add this: In that old people's home, there was a woman

9 called Ramiza, she worked there, she stayed with us, and her boyfriend, I

10 forget his name, and they were also --

11 MR. IERACE: I object. Mr. President, the questions are asked as

12 to the status of the inhabitants was relevant to the issue as to whether

13 it could have been an UN observation post. In other words, it would not

14 have been an UN observation post if it was used for military purposes.

15 Secondly, it was relevant because of certain other evidence as to the

16 reason for contact with the UN, namely, involving the direct or -- I can't

17 say that any further in the presence of the witness. But I am sure Your

18 Honours recall.

19 This goes well beyond that, well beyond cross-examination. The

20 witness for the second time in a row is embarking on material which is not

21 responsive to the question. In his response to the second last question,

22 indeed he went well beyond the question to a point of, in effect, perhaps

23 contradicting what he said in chief. Thank you.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. What I

Page 14284

1 must say now is --

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. May I first ask you something: You asked about

3 the ethnicity of those remaining. The witness has answered that

4 question. I think one of the most relevant aspects of the question might

5 have been whether there were any people remaining in this building,

6 civilians, elderly people living there. Apart from that, the witness also

7 already answered a question about the ethnicity.

8 Would that do in view of what you asked? It is an answer to your

9 question.

10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] May I answer by "yes or no,"

11 Mr. President?

12 JUDGE ORIE: If it would be no, we would be in need of a further

13 explanation, of course. But if it would be yes, then --

14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well. Mr. President, no,

15 this is not sufficient for the following reason: I can be very brief, if

16 you allow me, and we can maybe ask the witness to remove his headphones.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you. For the following

19 reason, Mr. President: We are researching the truth. It is our duty, of

20 all of us, the Prosecution and the Defence. This witness just said that

21 the army was bringing food to these people. And I just found out after

22 the Prosecution asked this witness to come back that the army brought some

23 supplies -- please do not interrupt me -- to the Muslim population.

24 So there is one indispensable element on which we would like to

25 cross-examine since we have here an army who is supporting a Muslim army.

Page 14285

1 And this is quite contrary to an extermination campaign or campaign of

2 terror. This is what I am just discovering at this very moment.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, the army providing food did not --

4 was not an issue that was raised in cross-examination, but was an answer

5 to a question on living conditions. And it is not an issue that came up

6 during cross-examination, so you may -- the question that you put to the

7 witness has been answered. But you will not be allowed to further explore

8 that area. So please continue with your next question.

9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Gladly.

10 Q. Witness, do you know, since you lived in that area, what was

11 happening when the elderly people died during the war, whatever their

12 ethnicity?

13 MR. IERACE: I object, Mr. President, for the same reasons as

14 before.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, what happened to these people when they died was

16 not an issue that was raised, or did it? I mean, we were talking about

17 who was using the building for what; that was the issue. It was on the

18 basis of the request of the Prosecution, and not on these kind of issues.

19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well, Mr. President.

20 However, the witness himself brought some new elements. He talked about

21 this. He did not say that earlier. Consequently, we are sometimes facing

22 with the obligation to abandon the Anglo-Saxon rigor and to look for the

23 truth.

24 [Trial Chamber confers]

25 JUDGE ORIE: We will allow you one question on this issue,

Page 14286

1 Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

3 Q. Witness, I will rephrase my question. If you know, tell us, and

4 what can you tell us about the following question: What would happen when

5 people died in that home regardless of their ethnicity?

6 A. When some of these people would die in the old people's home,

7 Mrs. Milena had a car Lada and she would put the corpse in that Lada and

8 then she would bury that person in Lasko. That was the name of the

9 cemetery.

10 Q. This was happening when? During the day? During the night? Can

11 you tell us?

12 MR. IERACE: I note this is more than one question.

13 JUDGE ORIE: I allowed you one question, but --

14 [Trial Chamber confers]

15 JUDGE ORIE: The objection is sustained. We allowed you one

16 question and the question has been put and answered.

17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well, Mr. President.

18 Since I learned this morning that this witness would be called back, I

19 found in our archives an article. I unfortunately did not have time to

20 have this translated, but I did communicate this document to the

21 Prosecution, who may have had the opportunity to read it. And they also

22 handed out copies to the booth.

23 With your leave, Mr. President, we would like the witness to read

24 a very brief passage of this article which he will be handed, and it

25 concerns precisely a person by the name of Milena. We can see her name on

Page 14287

1 this article. She is the director of this old people's home. And we can

2 see in this article how the old people's home was managed during that

3 period. And since all the documents are handed out to the parties, maybe,

4 with your leave, we could ask the witness to read this very brief passage.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Ierace.

6 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I wouldn't know where to start in

7 objecting to that question.

8 First of all, my learned colleague did give us a copy of the

9 article at 2.15 p.m. A minute or two before you walked in. The article

10 is in B/C/S, no English translation, no English summary. And he did not

11 tell us what was in it. Secondly, it does not arise from

12 cross-examination. Thirdly, he has indicated the content without asking

13 the witness to remove his headphones. Fourthly, reading a newspaper

14 article on to the record does not and should not make those words

15 evidence. Thank you.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. DP6, I see you have taken off the headphones on

17 your own which is very gentle of you. Thank you very much for doing that.

18 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, if you -- could you explain further then to the

19 Chamber what is the purpose of these additional questions.

20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, it seems to me

21 that the Prosecution is really insisting on the fact that this building

22 would have been evacuated at some point or that this building could have

23 been used for some other purposes or whatnot. Very well. But I

24 unfortunately did not have time to have this article translated. First of

25 all, I am not a translator; and secondly, I did not have time to have it

Page 14288

1 done. And we can read in this article what happened during that time. If

2 the witness reads this excerpt, we could see what we are talking about in

3 the transcript.

4 JUDGE ORIE: No. I would like you to inform the Chamber what part

5 would you like the witness to read and how it is relevant to the issue you

6 want to raise. Because if you say you could not translate it, I take it

7 that if you ask the witness to read a certain part of it, that you know

8 what is in that part. So would you please first inform the Chamber what

9 is in there.

10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, it is an

11 article -- it is an interview actually carried out by a reporter, I think

12 it is a newspaper called Vesti the date is the 20th of September, 1994.

13 And it is the issue number 18. A lady, by the name of Milena, it is her

14 first name, this Milena was the director of the old people's home. This

15 article is -- was written before all the procedures, and this article

16 talks about what went on during the war in that old people's home. This

17 is why we have in our hands a document that is --

18 JUDGE ORIE: Let's try to cut things short. You want to use this

19 article as evidence that this home was not evacuated, that is how I

20 understand it. Could you tell us what exactly the article says about

21 time. Does it say during the whole conflict? Is there any indication of

22 a precise time to which this -- because it could be highly relevant if it

23 would say, for example, we had difficulties in feeding the elderly in

24 February 1993 and we solved it in this way or whatever. But where can we

25 find a clear indication of time?

Page 14289

1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, we are talking

2 about the war in this article. This article talks about the war. But

3 there are no precise dates covered in this article. They don't say, for

4 instance, something happened in September of 1992 or whatnot. We will not

5 have a chronological -- there is no chronology, there are no dates in this

6 article. We only have the memory of a person relating what happened.

7 [Trial Chamber confers]

8 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber will take a couple of minutes to adjourn

9 and to decide on the issue.

10 --- Break taken at 3.15 p.m

11 --- On resuming at 3.25 p.m.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, the Chamber has considered the

13 matter and has decided that this article cannot be put into evidence

14 through this witness unless there would be an opportunity for the

15 Prosecution to examine the source of this information, so that means

16 Milena or whoever it is.

17 Since the Chamber is of the opinion that the witness has testified

18 that there was no evacuation, that is the issue you said you wanted to

19 deal with through this witness and through this article. If that article

20 would support this, then I take it that the Defence takes the view that

21 this would corroborate the evidence of this witness, that there was no

22 evacuation, and then the source of this information, that is, Milena or

23 perhaps also the journalist, should be presented in court. One can wonder

24 whether if you intend to do that, whether it would not be easiest to have

25 it read out by that witness then. But I leave that up to you.

Page 14290

1 So this newspaper article cannot be accepted into evidence unless

2 there is a firm guarantee that the source will be available for

3 cross-examination to the Prosecution. Then the --

4 [Trial Chamber confers]

5 JUDGE ORIE: If there would be a specific need by the Defence to

6 have this specific part read out by the witness in respect of the living

7 circumstances - although that was not what you told the Chamber would be

8 the most relevant part - the Chamber does not oppose against having that

9 smaller part read out. Because the Chamber is of the opinion that part of

10 the Prosecution questions also dealt with living circumstances and it

11 might be of interest for the Defence case that living circumstances, but

12 then we are not specifically talking about evacuation. Because if you

13 want to use that article to corroborate the absence of any evacuation, you

14 should call the witness -- you should call the source of this information

15 as a witness.

16 Then the witness may be brought into the courtroom again --

17 Mr. Ierace, yes.

18 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, just to take a minute in the interest

19 of ultimately saving time. If the Defence had complied with its

20 obligations and given us, told us -- first of all, put to the relevant

21 witnesses that the old people's home was in this position and that the UN

22 had dealings with it, if that would have been put to Mole or Cutler or any

23 one of the others, then I don't think we would have a problem.

24 Secondly, if they told us in advance that this is the evidence

25 they wanted to lead, we could have checked this. It would have been

Page 14291

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

Page 14292

1 relatively easy for us to check it. And if it was true, I wouldn't be

2 opposing it. In this state, I'm left in a position I've got to test it.

3 Can I just say this, Mr. President, that Senior Military Observer

4 Mole said that there was an observation post in Nedzarici, that that was

5 established by his predecessor, Lieutenant-Colonel Grey, and he, Mole,

6 closed it down. He finished his term in December 1992. His evidence was

7 confirmed by Cutler who replaced Mole. He also said that during Mole's

8 time, the observation post in Nedzarici was closed down. To none of those

9 witnesses was put there was an observation post going on at the very

10 latest of December 1992. I simply make the point if they did it right, we

11 would save a lot of time in court. Thank you.

12 JUDGE ORIE: The situation that now exists, should not have

13 existed, that is for certain. Recalling witnesses should be the

14 exception. We have had earlier occasions where we had to -- where we had

15 to give an opportunity to recall witnesses as well. The Chamber always

16 regrets if there are no good reasons that cause that situation.

17 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, could you tell us, do you insist on, having

18 heard the decision of the Chamber, to have a part read out or not?

19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. Yes.

20 Because of the short passage that is less than one column of the text, and

21 it also has to do with certain issues regarding the presence of UNPROFOR.

22 It might help to clear the matters up. And I am speaking in the interest

23 of justice, rather than the interest of a sterile confrontation between

24 the parties. Absolutely not.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, for the consideration of the

Page 14296

1 What I wish to do pursue the maximum possible equality of arms

2 between the sides. On a number of occasions, the Chamber has requested

3 the Defence to quote this or that passage precisely when it attended to

4 address the matters raised by this or that witness.

5 Yesterday, something out of the ordinary happened. I was

6 examining a witness and I told this witness in the reply to a question put

7 by the Prosecution, you mentioned a mosque. It was objected to. And in

8 his objection the Prosecutor stated publicly that it was not -- that it

9 did not -- in answer to his question that the witness said that. I

10 checked that it was a lie. It was not an error, it was a lie. So,

11 therefore, I should like to ask politely the Prosecution to quote to me

12 the passage where the Prosecution did not ask that question.

13 The Defence, therefore, considers that it is not acceptable that

14 objections be made and that they be said that such-and-such witness has

15 not answered as he did following question by the Prosecution and,

16 therefore, we -- the Defence, loses considerable time in doing this. And

17 then the Chamber once again asks us not to waste time, but we do waste

18 time because we have to -- have to go back to the transcript. We think

19 that this is something that should not be allowed. So the Defence wishes

20 the Rules to be obeyed.

21 We believe that the Prosecution has understood and that the

22 accusations -- the objections increase in number, and the Defence can only

23 repeat that it is not natural whatever the legal system we are talking

24 about, we think it is not acceptable that one side says that it has not

25 said something when it has. We wish to things to be quite clear. We want

Page 14297

1 good cooperation between the parties, then I believe you will have to

2 say -- to say "stop this" we shall not accept.

3 And the Defence indicates this and also indicates that the manner

4 in which a certain episodes certain Boccaccio-esque -- if I may call them

5 that, certain Boccaccio-esque episodes, when they happen, then I think the

6 Chamber should put an end to this.

7 MR. IERACE: Yes, Mr. President. I note that I have been accused

8 of lying. The references to yesterday's transcript are at page 14.225,

9 line 14. That is the part of the transcript in which the witness referred

10 to a mosque. The context was, I asked the witness, why did he hold the

11 view that the Institute of Theology effectively was not an important

12 building strategically. He gave a long answer. Part of the answer

13 referred to tall buildings on ABiH territory, and my reading of his answer

14 is that -- and I think it was yours, Mr. President -- was that those tall

15 buildings blocked the view beyond them. I say I think it was yours

16 because you at one point after that said somethings to the positions on

17 the maps that he indicated in that context.

18 In re-examination, Mr. Piletta-Zanin then asked this question

19 which appears at page 14.237, line 5:

20 "Witness, in answer to a question put to you by the Prosecutor,

21 you mentioned that there was a mosque in the neighbourhood of Dobrinja, do

22 you remember this?"

23 "ANSWER: Yes.

24 "QUESTION: Thank you. With regards to that mosque was it ever

25 during the period that we are interested in, was it ever shot at?"

Page 14298

1 In other words, hanging on the word "mosque" in re-examination, my

2 learned colleague sought to open up an entirely different issue. The

3 issue which he raised with the -- I think it was the first witness called

4 by the Defence, whether mosques were deliberately targeted by the SRK. I

5 objected to the question. You asked me whether it went to form or

6 substance, I said substance. And then in support of my objection, I said

7 this commencing at line 17:

8 "Mr. President, it was to the substance of the question."

9 Firstly, the mention of the mosque was not given in response to

10 the question asked by me; secondly, it was not asked in the context of the

11 issue that my friend now seeks to raise for the first time.

12 When I made that objection, I would expect that my words as

13 recorded in the transcript were clearly indicative that the mention by the

14 witness of the word "mosque" was not responsive to the question I asked.

15 I -- suffice to say, I reject the suggestion that I have lied or misled

16 the Trial Chamber. Thank you.

17 [Trial Chamber confers]

18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President.

19 JUDGE ORIE: One minute, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President.

21 JUDGE ORIE: No, one minute, I mean you have one minute to --

22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Oh, I am sorry. Thank you

23 very much.

24 Mr. President, what we have here is simply that we have to clarify

25 the Rule and to establish the minimum cooperation between the parties.

Page 14299

1 What I am saying is in the full action and Mr. Ierace quoted rightly first

2 [In English] "not given in response to a question asked by me,"

3 [Interpretation] that is not true, because it was given within a

4 question. It was part of an answer, that is a fact which cannot be

5 disputed. When that is said then -- you gave me a minute, Mr. President.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, you will get the last 30 seconds afterwards.

7 I do understand that there is a disagreement on what these words

8 mean in response of my question. Mr. Ierace interprets this words he used

9 as meaning that the question did not seek that information as a response

10 to that question, whereas Mr. Piletta-Zanin seems to interpret these words

11 as whatever is in an answer, whether that information is sought in the

12 question or not, is in response of that question.

13 So before you continue, I would like to tell the parties that both

14 the interpretations might have their own validity. Please use your last

15 30 seconds, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I should be happy to do this,

17 Mr. President. Only this, when I say that it was in reply, in response,

18 to questions of the Prosecution, then the context is quite clear. It is

19 not a matter whether this was the answer which the Prosecution pursued.

20 But my intervention was it -- if the contents are clear, and where I want

21 to avoid any semantic problems. It wasn't of one's own, well this should

22 not happen again. This is a waste of time; we are wasting time. And we

23 don't like to find some way of mitigating the facts of this as much as

24 possible.

25 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, given the seriousness of the

Page 14315

1 JUDGE ORIE: We are in open session. Please proceed.

2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

3 Q. Witness, first I will ask you some questions about you -- about

4 what you knew on that side of the front, what you knew about the scale of

5 destruction. Do you know anything about this -- and I have in mind the

6 material damage, the destruction of buildings -- what can you tell the

7 Chamber about that?

8 A. The destruction took place along the separation lines. I have

9 already said that it was an urban area. Serb soldiers made the trenches

10 inside the buildings, that is, in the entrances of the buildings. And

11 since the Muslims -- since there were trenches, those areas were fired at,

12 and those buildings which were hit directly, destroyed, and demolished by

13 their direct fire.

14 Q. Very well. I have to remind you, because all this has to be

15 interpreted, to slow down a little bit, Witness.

16 You tell us that the Muslim side also dug trenches. Did you see

17 those trenches with your own eyes or not?

18 A. Of course we saw them.

19 Q. Thank you, sir. If you can answer with yes or no, I shall be

20 grateful.

21 Did you see people working there, that is, digging those trenches?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Very well. And insofar as you could see people dig those

24 trenches, do you know who it was, that is, I do not mean individuals, but

25 what was their status, generally speaking? Thank you.

Page 14316

1 A. We never opened fire on those people who were digging those

2 trenches, because we assumed that they were people of Serb ethnicity, so

3 that fire was never opened on those people.

4 Q. These people who were digging, you tell us that they were -- the

5 transcript shows that they were persons who belonged to the Serb culture.

6 Thank you.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mundis.

8 MR. MUNDIS: Objection, Mr. President. The witness made an

9 assumption, and the Defence counsel has now mischaracterised that

10 testimony.

11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes, Mr. President, but

12 I haven't finished my question.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Let me first wait one second.

14 Up until now, the witness in his answer assumed something. And in

15 the first part of your question, you put it to him as -- not as an

16 assumption, but as a fact. Would you please rephrase.

17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

18 Q. Witness --

19 [Trial Chamber confers]

20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

21 Q. Witness, you told us in your answer that you thought that those

22 persons belonged to the Serb culture. These persons that you talked to us

23 about, that you talk about, what did they look to you as, I am speaking in

24 general terms. What status did they have during the war?

25 A. There were people who had remained loyal to the other side. We

Page 14317

1 also had work platoons, as they did. So they were in work platoons, and

2 it was their obligation to do what they were doing as members of a labour

3 platoons.

4 Q. You are talking about labour obligation which came upon them. Can

5 you tell us why.

6 A. They were out of labour obligation because it was wartime and they

7 were not issued with weapons to go into trenches, possibly because they

8 were Serbs. But Serbs do not just loiter around their houses, I suppose,

9 they sent them to trenches.

10 Q. Thank you very much. You tell us that fire was not opened on

11 those individuals and those people. Did these people wear clothes which

12 made them identifiable?

13 A. Yes. You could identify them, you could recognise them, because

14 they did not wear BH uniforms.

15 Q. Thank you very much.

16 Witness, did you and your unit -- and I am referring to the whole

17 period of war at whatever time -- did you receive any specific

18 instructions relating to civilians?

19 A. The instructions of my superiors were never to open fire on

20 civilians.

21 Q. Witness, can you tell us what, at the time, you understood by the

22 word "civilian."

23 A. To my mind and to my troops, a civilian was every person without a

24 uniform.

25 Q. Thank you.

Page 14318

1 These instructions, could you tell us how were they conveyed to

2 you and do you know from which unit, from which structure, were they sent

3 down to you?

4 A. Well, in the Serb army, we had the chain of command. I was at the

5 lowest level because I was a platoon commander. I had my company

6 commander who was an officer a lieutenant, Miodrag Djuric was his name.

7 Then there was the battalion commander --

8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I am sorry, Witness.

9 Mr. President, I do not know whether the witness should give those names.

10 JUDGE ORIE: It is not necessary, but if he gives them, unless

11 there are specific reasons to have them redacted, we will just leave them

12 in the transcript. So if there is any specific reason, please tell us.

13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No, I do not know. And I am

14 asking. I don't know what is the case and whether perhaps by the fact of

15 ricochet, some certain things might be disclosed. Yes, of course.

16 JUDGE ORIE: If you are answering questions, you do not have to

17 give specific names -- of course, you are entitled to do so, and if there

18 is a specific interest to know the name of the persons who you are talking

19 about, then certainly the counsel will ask you to provide these names.

20 Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

22 Q. Witness, sorry about interrupting you. Will you please proceed

23 with the answer that you were giving us. You were talking about your

24 chain of command. Will you please finish your sentence.

25 A. Well then, my company commander was a lieutenant -- I will give

Page 14319

1 you the ranks. So he was a lieutenant, a company commander. The

2 battalion commander was captain 1st class, and the brigade commander was a

3 colonel. And that was my chain, my links of command.

4 Q. Witness, these instructions about not targeting civilians, were

5 they communicated to you in writing, for instance, or orally? I don't

6 know. I mean, how were they communicated to you and how frequently?

7 A. In my -- the practice in my unit was for us, the platoon

8 commanders who were on the front line would have a meeting with the

9 company commander, who would then transmit to us what to do the next day.

10 Of course, in case of an attack against our positions, we had telephone

11 communication and we had code names. For instance, I was a Soka, my

12 command was Jastreb. And then I say, Hello, Jastreb, this is Soka. I am

13 being attacked from such-and-such sight, what am I to do? And then my

14 lieutenants would issue me these -- would give me the instructions.

15 Q. Very well.

16 How many times, if you know that -- and of course I am asking

17 about an order of magnitude. But, of course, your chain of command, how

18 often did your chain of command remind you of this instruction, not to

19 target individuals or to do one's utmost not to target -- not to hit

20 individuals -- civilians?

21 A. I think I was clear. We had our meetings every night, and every

22 night we would be given these instructions. And every night we would be

23 told not to target civilians and not to target without any need or not to

24 target without any need because we had to -- we were rather short on

25 ammunition.

Page 14320

1 Q. Thank you. But -- yes, you have already answered a part of my

2 question because I wanted to ask you about the ammunition. Did you

3 receive any specific instructions concerning the use of ammunition, that

4 is, specifically the quantity, the quota, if you like, that would be

5 allotted to this or that unit?

6 A. Since this urban area, as I call it, is linked with this site,

7 with our logistics, but one street only, Bana Sur Bata Street. And in

8 1992, 1993, it was impossible to move about and bring ammunition in. So

9 that was the reason. And besides, by George, there wasn't enough

10 ammunition. That was the early days. When we got to the barracks, some

11 people fired off just like that. So that later on we were issued with

12 only as much ammunition as our commanders believed we would need for our

13 defence.

14 Q. With regards to the use of this ammunition, which were the

15 instructions which you received? And this stems from your previous

16 answer, but I will rephrase it and put it to you.

17 Did you receive any instructions with regards to the quantities

18 with regards to the use and the usage of this ammunition?

19 A. Yes, of course, there were. With regards to ordinary ammunition

20 and ordinary ammunition we call rifle ammunition. And afterwards, when I

21 was a member of the battalion, we were talking about heavy ammunition,

22 that we never had enough. And we had to be careful and to save it just in

23 case we had to defend ourselves. We had to make sure that we always have

24 enough -- enough ammunition to defend ourselves.

25 Q. Thank you for these answers.

Page 14321

1 Witness do you have any direct experience with regards to

2 weaponry, and I am especially referring to artillery weapons?

3 THE INTERPRETER: Would the witness speak more slowly, please, or

4 slower.

5 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, could you please just slow down. Thank you

6 very much.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In my previous answer I refer to the

8 fact that in my unit, my company had the largest calibre -- the ammunition

9 that had the largest calibre was 20 millimetres. That was the largest and

10 most lethalest of ammunitions that my unit possessed. With regards to all

11 the other ammunition, it was ammunition for rifles.

12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

13 Q. Thank you. But my question was to the effect to find out if you

14 yourself had the occasion to be present during some shellings on the zone

15 that you were defending, or were you present in the neighbourhoods

16 corresponding to the responsibility area of your own company? Yes or no.

17 A. We had almost daily shellings. One of my soldiers --

18 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter didn't seize what the witness

19 said.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] One day, he was a transport in an

21 APC with an open roof. And that soldier was hit directly on the head. It

22 was a tragic accident.

23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

24 Q. He was hit on the head by what? What type of projectile?

25 A. It was a shell.

Page 14322

1 Q. What kind of shell?

2 A. I don't know of which calibre, but it was a shell and it hit the

3 roof of the vehicle. And I believe that the width of this roof was 70

4 centimetres, but I couldn't tell you which calibre hit him. It just

5 really exploded.

6 Q. Very well. Since you are in your own language saying "Granata"

7 and that this word in the Serbian language encompasses a few things. It

8 can also mean mortar. I would like to ask you the following questions:

9 What was the weapon that launched this grenade or this shell? I don't

10 necessarily mean which diametre was, which calibre, but what type was it

11 exactly?

12 A. It was a mortar.

13 Q. Thank you very much. Witness, when you were saying that you were

14 shelled on a daily basis, what kind of artillery fire was it?

15 A. It was all mortars, mortar shells [as interpreted].

16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I have a slight

17 interpretation problem in the French booth. I am not even sure even if in

18 English that the witness said that it was "only mortar shells." I think

19 he said "mortars, not only mortars," which is a bit different. So I will

20 rephrase the question.

21 Q. Were there any other types of shells, in other words, any other

22 weapons used other than the mortars that were used on the areas that we

23 are talking of?

24 A. From shorter distances from one line to the other, you see, we

25 were sometimes as close to 20 metres from the other line. So it -- they

Page 14323

1 were hitting us with Zoljas, Tromblon, hand-held launchers, and what we

2 call infantry weapons.

3 Q. Thank you. In terms of heavy weapons, however, were there any

4 heavy weapons that would have targeted your units during the conflict

5 period?

6 A. From personal experience, I can tell you that we had a few tanks,

7 and a part of the mechanised armoured battalion, and we also had some

8 tanks at our disposal. We never used those tanks because we never had to

9 shoot on the city or use them for the city. But one of the tanks were not

10 functioning very well, so we had to remove it from Grbavica on to Lukavica

11 in order to remove it from there. And in the street Bana Sur Bata, the

12 tank was hit. And the hit came from whom? This is what we were able to

13 assess. It was a 55 tank shell and the driver who was inside was killed.

14 This is all I can tell us of my personal experience and I was a witness of

15 this event.

16 Q. Witness, you were telling us that you were present during this

17 incident.

18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] And for the French booth, that

19 was going towards Lukavica, and not towards Grbavica.

20 Q. How can you tell that the shot came from a tank, that it was a

21 tank shot?

22 A. We are talking about an APC, and so the thickness of the material

23 in which it was built is 20 to 30 millimetre. And this shell went right

24 through and we found it.

25 Q. I would like to talk about the distance between the lines during

Page 14324

1 the conflict. What was, Witness, if you know it, not the length of the

2 line that you were holding but what was the depth towards the back? And I

3 am thinking about this whole technical area, the depth of your line. Can

4 you tell us what it was.

5 A. With regards to Grbavica from Sarajevo, Grbavica to Sarajevo is

6 separated by the Miljacka River. Our lines were on one side of the

7 Miljacka River, the Muslin army was on the other side of the Miljacka

8 River. With regards to the interior, the inside of Grbavica, Grbavica is

9 an area where you had civilians who lived there. So there is no depth, if

10 you will.

11 From our line to the place where civilians lived, there is not

12 even more than 1.500 to 2.000 metres. So from the river Miljacka to

13 street Moravska which belongs to the city. Actually 1500 metres away from

14 there, there was the civilian population, but they were not only Serbs,

15 there was also a Muslim portion, the Muslim --

16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, perhaps I missed it, but do we

17 know already what confrontation lines we are talking about precisely? I

18 mean, it has been of -- it seems to be of major importance for the Defence

19 case, and we have details. Is this general information for all the front

20 lines, or is this the part where the witness was stationed or --

21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, in fact, in

22 French, I was asking him "the lines" what were the lines that this person

23 had the knowledge of. He knew two lines because he witnessed these two

24 situations, from the beginning -- actually he began working there in

25 October of 1992. The witness answers about Grbavica. It is his second

Page 14325

1 position. I was asking -- actually I was waiting for the end of his

2 answer in order to ask him a question with regards to the first situation,

3 the first position. We will show the witness later some maps after the

4 break, and the witness will be able to show us precisely the positions.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] And the areas.

7 JUDGE ORIE: It is mainly in respect of the earlier answers that I

8 had some difficulties in following where we were exactly talking about.

9 Would this be a suitable moment for a break or would you have --

10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Just two more questions and

11 then we will be able to go and have a break. Thank you.

12 Q. Witness, very briefly, you told us what the situation was like in

13 Grbavica. But can you tell us: What was the situation for the first

14 line? What was it like -- what was the technical depth on the first line

15 that you knew, that you were at? Can you tell us what it was.

16 A. I do not understand -- you are talking about the depth of the line

17 that was held by the Serbian army? Is that what you asking me? Is that

18 the question?

19 Q. I am talking to you about the lines that you yourself have

20 defended as a soldier and the positions that you -- you personally -- and

21 I am not talking about the length of the line, all the technical zone, all

22 the technical area that you have in the back. The logistic area, the

23 commandment area. So for you, what was that depth? If you know it, of

24 course.

25 A. I said earlier that from the line where the Serbian soldier was

Page 14326

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

Page 14327

1 standing, behind him there were people who lived on the Serbian side and

2 there was from 1500 metres to 2 kilometres, that's all. We didn't have

3 any other depth.

4 Q. Thank you very much.

5 A. May I just add, when I am talking about the line, I mean to say

6 that behind us was of Serbian responsibility, but the area from which we

7 were able to look towards the city and the position where you could die

8 was not over 2.000 metres.

9 Q. Thank you very much. At the very beginning of your testimony, you

10 mentioned there were some destruction that took place on the line. Do you

11 include in your answer the zone of a kilometre or 1.5 kilometres when you

12 talked about the destruction behind you?

13 A. Since the line was such, and behind us we had these buildings, and

14 these buildings were completely destroyed by Tromblons, Zoljas, hand-held

15 launchers. But with regards to the area where civilians lived, they were

16 shelled, so mortars did their damage. And this is how they were able to

17 destroy the part where civilians lived.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, it still is entirely unclear. May

19 I ask you one or two questions: When you were at the front line or

20 confrontation lines, did you stay at the same position during the whole

21 armed conflict?

22 THE INTERPRETER: Mr. President, could the witness speak slower.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The task of my unit --

24 JUDGE ORIE: I am just asking whether you were moving or whether

25 you stayed at the same position.

Page 14328

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Was your unit moving during the war or were you

3 stationed at different positions for a certain period of time?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We were always in Grbavica, which

5 doesn't mean that it was always at the same post, the same spot.

6 JUDGE ORIE: So you --

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Place.

8 JUDGE ORIE: You were at positions in Grbavica for the entire

9 period of the armed conflict? That's clear. Thank you for this answer.

10 We will then adjourn until -- Mr. Ierace, yes.

11 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, at some stage, perhaps at the

12 beginning of the next session, could I take a few minutes to deal with a

13 matter in relation to forthcoming witnesses and exhibits, giving that this

14 is the last hearing day before Monday.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President --

17 JUDGE ORIE: How much time would you need?

18 MR. IERACE: It would only take me a minute to say what I have to

19 say.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, could we not do

22 this at the very end of today's session? We will continue with the

23 witness. And it seems to be more logical that we just pursue what we

24 started with the witness.

25 JUDGE ORIE: We do not know yet what Mr. Ierace wants to tell us.

Page 14329

1 So I would prefer, as a matter of fact, if it takes only one minute to ask

2 the witness to leave the courtroom and to do it right now. So that if it

3 needs some thinking, that we can do that during the break.

4 Mr. Usher, may I ask you to escort the witness out of the

5 courtroom.

6 We will have a break for approximately 20 minutes, 25 minutes,

7 Mr. DP10.

8 [The witness steps down]

9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, if I may. If

10 some questions are put to you, I will not be able to answer by myself.

11 Usually my colleague deals with lots of issues, and she is not present

12 today.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I take it that the Defence present at the

14 hearing should be in a position to answer the questions. I mean, that is

15 the -- if lead counsel is not there, those who are there in her place

16 should be able to answer questions. But of course, if there is any

17 specific issue, we will see how important it is.

18 Mr. Ierace, please proceed.

19 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President. Yesterday we received from

20 the Registry a photocopy of a letter that the Registry had received

21 addressed to me from the Defence dated the 20th of October. But having

22 regard to the fax information, it seems it was faxed to the Registry on

23 the 22nd of October. The letter sets out the order of witnesses for the

24 week from the 28th of October to the 1st of November. It makes no mention

25 of the witnesses to be called next week.

Page 14330

1 Firstly, might I respectfully suggest, that in future, the Defence

2 provides running commentaries, in other words, a running list, who are the

3 witnesses to be called from the next witness. So, therefore, could the

4 Defence confirm that the next witness after this one -- and perhaps I

5 should indicate that list in closed session. But essentially, at some

6 stage, could the Defence confirm the identity of the witnesses to be

7 called next week and the order.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Could you try to find out during the next break

9 whether you agree on that or not. And if not, we will then deal with it

10 in closed session --

11 MR. IERACE: And secondly, Mr. President, the letter we received

12 from the Registry says that a description of the provisional exhibits is

13 attached. As I understand it, the Registry only received one page, no

14 attachment.

15 Finally, it refers -- the letter refers to a number of exhibits in

16 the form of SRK documents to be tendered. There is no indication as to

17 through which witnesses the documents will be tendered, and therefore no

18 indication as to when they will be tendered. So perhaps my learned

19 colleague can attend to those matters. Thank you. And perhaps during the

20 break he can give me the list of witnesses for next week.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I take it, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, you could provide

22 Mr. Ierace with the calling order of the witnesses for next week.

23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] My answer is no,

24 Mr. President, for the simple reason that I do not have these documents

25 here at hand. Secondly, I do not remember it by heart, and thirdly --

Page 14331

1 JUDGE ORIE: Please deal with the matter during the break as well,

2 and I think --

3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Gladly --

4 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]...-- That you will

5 not be here on Friday, because that is the reason we are not sitting on

6 Friday, that you provide the Prosecution by today or agree with them by

7 today what will be the calling order.

8 I take it that if exhibits that were attached to letters have not

9 been attached, that you provide the Prosecution with them as well. And

10 could you please indicate also to the Defence [sic] which exhibits, which

11 documents will be tendered through which witnesses, if that is not clear.

12 You can discuss it during the break that follows. If there is any need --

13 I beg your pardon?

14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, there is one

15 intervention. I am waiting urgently to receive answers to things I have

16 asked Mr. Ierace. I asked Mr. Ierace to reply to us in writing. We are

17 waiting and waiting and waiting. And I would like to ask him if we could

18 get a formal answer after the break.

19 JUDGE ORIE: On what actually?

20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] During the break. Well we

21 have asked questions, for instance, with regards to the witness addresses,

22 we are still waiting for those answers. I have asked very strict, clear

23 questions on the modus operandi with regards to the next people, with

24 regards to the fact whether we could find some points of agreements. And

25 I am still waiting for those answers. Thank you.

Page 14332

1 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, we filed -- we went to the Registry

2 this afternoon to comply with the 10-day requirement that you set in

3 relation to agreed facts. We are told that that filing will be accepted

4 on Friday, so my response is contained in that. I did write to the

5 Defence I think a week ago, last Friday it was, with information as to the

6 location of witnesses that the Defence proposes to call. I am unaware of

7 any other outstanding matters. Thank you.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. When I said if there is any need, that is when

9 you interrupted me, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, if there would be any need for

10 assistance during the meeting, during the break, as far as the calling

11 order is concerned, then I will be available. We will have a break until

12 6.00.

13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you.

14 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]...until five past

15 6.00.

16 --- Recess taken at 5.42 p.m.

17 --- On resuming at 6.11 p.m.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Before we continue to examine the witness, the

19 Chamber received this morning an application for leave for appeal on a

20 decision in respect of cooperation between the parties. I don't know

21 whether you intended to respond to that motion, but the Chamber would like

22 to receive that response as soon as possible.

23 MR. IERACE: Yes, Mr. President. It is in French, it is being

24 translated. Would Monday afternoon be acceptable?

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, it will be.

Page 14333

1 MR. IERACE: Thank you.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Then, could the witness be escorted into the

3 courtroom again. And the parties can address the Registrar after this

4 hearing in order to see how they can get the assistance that was offered

5 to them.

6 [The witness entered court]

7 JUDGE ORIE: Oh, it has been done already.

8 Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you.

10 Q. Witness --

11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I would like to seek the

12 usher's help.

13 Q. I will show you a map and it could be used. This is a colour

14 map. And it could be put on the ELMO.

15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, for the

16 transcript it is the exhibit which has D1766. Thank you. Could you

17 please focus it so that we can have a clearer image. Thank you. Thank

18 you. Thank you.

19 Q. Witness, can you recognise this as the map of a part of Sarajevo?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Thank you. And in this part of the map do you recognise the place

22 where you were engaged as a soldier during the conflict?

23 A. Yes, I do.

24 Q. Thank you. Can you just point at it with the pointer which I

25 believe have a pen there, and would you please point to it on the map.

Page 14334

1 Thank you very much.

2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, usher.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is Aleja Lipa Street, now Djure

4 Salaja, downstream the Miljacka River, downstream the Miljacka. This

5 street Porodice Ribra -- no, no, no, sorry, just a moment, Djure Salaja to

6 Strojorad and then we go straight up towards the stadium. And then at this

7 stadium in this corner, there was a Serb position and then it went like

8 this straight on. This is the police centre, police centre, police club.

9 And then it went up again to --

10 Q. Witness, Witness, I will stop you. Because we shall see it on a

11 blownup map better. But now, can you tell us, for the whole, can you

12 repeat for the area as such that we are talking about. The area that we

13 can now see clearly on the screen.

14 A. Like this. I said, the street here which is called --

15 Q. Witness, wait. Sorry. Don't give us the street names right now.

16 Only -- only quietly make a round -- make a circle around the area.

17 A. I understand now, yes. That's it.

18 Q. Now, for the witness -- no, sorry for the transcript.

19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] The witness has made a line

20 from the Miljacka River then going southward practically parallel to the

21 blue line.

22 Q. Witness --

23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, we do not know where it starts.

24 There are a lot of blue lines and south is available -- could we just try

25 to -- the line indicated by the witness started approximately on the

Page 14335

1 southern bank of the river, just left from where the word "Miljacka"

2 appears would then go into westerly direction until the first blue grid

3 line where it reads "STOJAD," would then go south and pass by the stadium

4 Grbavica, mainly on the eastern side, would then go to an a structure

5 indicated on the red in the map which is just south-easterly of the

6 stadium, would then go further south up to a road, and would go in an

7 easterly direction on a white road in the direction of number "633" on the

8 map.

9 Please proceed.

10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, we need to be

11 precise. It is not near number 633, but in the direction of 33. It very

12 important and we shall see why in a minute.

13 JUDGE ORIE: That's what the English transcript and what my words

14 said. [Interpretation] That is what I said in the -- towards number 633.

15 Exactly that is what I was pointing out.

16 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, might it be more helpful if the

17 witness would actually draw this on the map.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I think it would be preferable, but there are

19 certain reasons why the Defence prefer the witness not to do this at this

20 very moment, although it would have been more efficient. Please proceed.

21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] That is right, Mr. President,

22 because he will do it on a different map, which is -- I am saying this in

23 order to facilitate the process. The map 3728, we already have copies so

24 that we can be prepared.

25 Q. Witness, you are talking to us about the rear. I am referring to

Page 14336

1 your earlier answers. Would you please just point at -- with the tool

2 that you have, the pointer, would you please point at the area that you

3 had in mind.

4 A. [Indicates]

5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] The witness is indicating --

6 Q. Very well, thank you.

7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] The witness is indicating on

8 the map the whole area behind, that is south of the Miljacka which ends

9 after an intersection. Before well before number 633. Thank you.

10 Q. Witness, you can now take your pointer back. Thank you. In the

11 area that you mentioned, do you know if there was any destruction of urban

12 structure? Yes or no.

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Thank you. How would you qualify the destruction, I mean in

15 quantitative terms?

16 A. My positions were almost daily hit by 10 to 15 mortar shells, my

17 positions, not counting small arms ammunition.

18 Q. Witness, you talk to us about your positions. Do you or can you

19 have any knowledge of all of the projectiles intended for you, for your

20 positions, reached their target?

21 A. Few of them hit the marker. Most of them hit civilian objects.

22 There were a few of them which hit us.

23 Q. And how do you explain that fact?

24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mundis.

25 MR. MUNDIS: Objection, Mr. President. This entire line of

Page 14337

1 questioning calls for speculation. There is no basis or foundation that

2 the witness has any knowledge.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, we have had a similar situation

4 before. You were then instructed how to proceed. Would you please do it

5 in a similar way now.

6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

7 Q. Witness, during the conflict, did you have daily experience of

8 shelling? Yes or no.

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Could you take note, become aware of some cases of those shots of

11 some errors, firing errors, do you have any knowledge about the

12 possibility of firing errors and are you competent enough to know such

13 things and so on?

14 A. Well, they -- and they must have known where our lines were, and I

15 presumed they fired at our lines. But they were not doing it well was

16 that it was mostly civilians who fell victim. Very few of their mortar

17 shells hit our trenches.

18 Q. Are you about to tell us that the targets which were the trenches

19 were relatively narrow and that therefore they were difficult to hit,

20 according to your experience?

21 JUDGE ORIE: One second.

22 MR. MUNDIS: Objection, leading.

23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well. I withdraw it. I

24 will rephrase my question, Mr. President.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

Page 14338

1 Do you have specific knowledge on the use of mortars?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't understand the question.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Did you fire mortars yourself?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Do you have any training in firing mortars?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know in the branch of the army

7 that I served did not have any mortars.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Do you have knowledge on the precision of artillery

9 weapons, the artillery that -- the precision that could be achieved?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The precision is possible, but the

11 shells are always charged the same, that is, they can fall 100 metres

12 away, plus or minus, because they do not all carry the same charge.

13 JUDGE ORIE: This 100 metres, is that the difference in the charge

14 that is used or is this something else you are referring to? You say 100

15 metres' difference. Could you explain this exactly what you meant.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] An error is also possible. You see

17 and I suppose they were firing at our trenches, but their shells would go

18 off the mark and then affect innocent people.

19 JUDGE ORIE: You say, they fired at our trenches, but they missed

20 and they hit innocent people. On the basis of what do you exactly

21 conclude that they fired at your trenches and missed rather than that

22 they, for example, intentionally targeted those innocent people?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I believe that it is part of

24 the military Code of Conduct, that you target military not the civilian.

25 I cannot understand that there can be a human being who will fire at a

Page 14339

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

Page 14340

1 civilian rather than at a soldier who could be deemed responsible for

2 something.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Would there be any other reason for you to assume

4 that your trenches were the targets and that the shells missed their

5 targets?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The separation lines between the

7 Serb troops and the Bosniak troop at times were only 20 metres away. So

8 perhaps somebody feared that he wouldn't reach the target and, therefore,

9 fired and, therefore, targeted something that was at a greater distance,

10 and that is how they hit civilians. That is one assumption that I make.

11 JUDGE ORIE: May I ask you: Would that mean that intentionally

12 not your positions were targeted because the other party would be afraid

13 of firing errors and, therefore, for the risk to hit their own positions?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, yes, that was probably how it

15 was, along the lines which were nearby. And the lines which were further

16 away, they -- shots were more precise.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So you say if the confrontation lines were

18 close, they were able to fire with great precision and would just fire a

19 bit further than your lines because they wanted to avoid the risk of

20 hitting their own positions. And where the confrontation lines were

21 further away, there they made firing errors when they did not hit the

22 confrontation line, and hit instead innocent people.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In that case, when they were further

24 away, saying when men was not responsible, but the charge of the mortar --

25 shells, shells were frequently made during the war and therefore not

Page 14341

1 charged properly, according to the regulations, and that is why sometimes

2 they fell short of the target or went over the target. That is what

3 happened.

4 JUDGE ORIE: What makes you believe that this charging of the

5 shells caused the firing errors?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Because technically speaking, every

7 shell should have a particular gunpowder charge defined for a particular

8 shell calibre. But those shells were not built in such a way. So that --

9 I mean, they were not calculated precisely or were not charged precisely,

10 and therefore the trajectory would be either shorter or longer than

11 envisaged.

12 JUDGE ORIE: What knowledge do you have on the production of

13 shells used by the other party in the conflict?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I know more or less places

15 where they could be doing that. But I am saying because they were made in

16 the factory that I used to work, because that was a military factory. And

17 that factory had all the possible mechanical assets to make the shells.

18 And I also attended the mechanical schools at Marijin Dvor between the

19 Holiday Inn Hotel and Marshal Tito Barracks. And that school was

20 accommodated in the basement where they had a wonderful workshop where

21 they could make all this.

22 And I also received information from a friend who spent the whole

23 war on the federal side. They were assembling them in the television

24 building, in the Sarajevo television building at Alipasino Polje on the

25 underground floor. And throughout the war, that is where they made those

Page 14342

1 shells.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, thank you for

4 your intervention. I am not sure that it is an interpretation error, but

5 I think that the witness said "I also attended a mechanical school" and in

6 the transcript in page 73, line 18, I think that the witness said that

7 there were also some production units in the mechanical school. We can

8 ask it perhaps once again.

9 JUDGE ORIE: You may proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

11 Q. Witness, you mentioned a mechanical school. Is it a place where

12 weapons were manufactured to what you know? Will you please tell us aloud

13 what your answer is.

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Very well. That was clear. Thank you.

16 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]...that the witness

17 is invited to tell it aloud, and that is what he did. Please proceed.

18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you.

19 Q. Witness, on the map that you have, that is the one which shows

20 the -- is the section of Sarajevo, could you indicate certain workshops

21 which made weapons which you said? Could you do that? Yes or no.

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Thank you. In that case, Witness, I will ask that you be given a

24 black marker. And I shall appreciate it if you put a cross at a place

25 that you mentioned and that we can see on this map. Point by point.

Page 14343

1 A. [Marks]

2 Q. I will stop you here. Could you please indicate next to the cross

3 write a "1." You can maybe draw a larger cross.

4 A. [Marks]

5 Q. Very well. What are we talking about here?

6 A. This is the mechanical school in Marijin Dvor in Sarajevo.

7 Q. Very well. Could you please show us a second place -- but just

8 one second. Please wait a minute.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mundis, you are on your feet.

10 MR. MUNDIS: Yes, Mr. President, the Prosecution would object and

11 ask that this be clarified. Previously the witness testified as to a

12 list -- of listed a number of places where he said shells could have been

13 made. And the Defence is now asking the witness to mark places "were"

14 made.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please verify, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, the

16 source of the knowledge and perhaps also relate it in time because the

17 witness --

18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Of course. Of course. Very

19 well, but I must say that I am just asking questions with regards to his

20 knowledge, if he knew where these shells were built.

21 Q. So, Witness, could you please tell us --

22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, that is not a solution to the

23 problem. Because if you say "to your knowledge," that could be to your

24 knowledge of where they could have been made or as to your knowledge as

25 where they were made. So please try to be precise.

Page 14344

1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Of course.

2 Q. Witness, could you please tell us: How did you find out about

3 this, about these facts? How have you learned of this and so on and so

4 forth? And, Witness, please do not mark anything on the map right now,

5 for the time being. Just answer my question: How did you learn about

6 these facts that you just mentioned a few minutes ago?

7 A. I have learned about this -- not only myself but also other

8 members, other soldiers found out about this from the people who were

9 living in the federal part of Sarajevo. This was also on my line hotel --

10 the hotel Bristol was also on my line and that was actually just across

11 from my line there was a bridge. And under the bridge, the citizens who

12 did not have enough money to pay to the teams that were proceeding to the

13 exchanges, they had to leave at night through the Muslim positions or

14 leave the Muslim positions --

15 THE INTERPRETER: The witness is not clear.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] So, this is why, if we talk about

17 Marijin Dvor, we had to go along Miljacka and that was held by the HVO.

18 So these were not Muslim positions, but Croatian positions. And those

19 Croats were very generous, so to speak, towards the citizens because they

20 would let them go through their lines during the night. And they would

21 exit on the Serbian side.

22 JUDGE ORIE: May I ask you to listen carefully to the question and

23 specifically answer to that question. I think the question was about how

24 you knew about this ammunition production. You did write a "1" on the

25 map. Could you tell us precisely and answer the question of

Page 14345

1 Mr. Piletta-Zanin: How you know that there was a production facility for

2 mortars or ammunition? Let me say it a more general way. Did you see it

3 yourself?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We found out about this through the

5 citizen who had left. So the war began in Sarajevo, these people left the

6 city --

7 JUDGE ORIE: The first question was: Did you see it yourself?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. I was not able to see it myself

9 because it was on the enemy side, on the other side.

10 JUDGE ORIE: If you didn't see it yourself, did you hear it from

11 someone?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] From the citizens that had seen it

13 themselves.

14 JUDGE ORIE: How many citizens have told you this?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Left by thousands.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Thousands of citizens have told you about the

17 production facility there?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All the people who left confirmed

19 this facts.

20 JUDGE ORIE: My question was: How many told you this? How many

21 people told you?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, personally to myself, 20

23 people.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Do you know their names or were they --

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, of course I know. But for most

Page 14346

1 of these people still live in the Federation, so I wouldn't really

2 disclose their personal data.

3 JUDGE ORIE: There are solutions for that. If you would like to

4 mention names and not this to be made known to the public, there are

5 solutions for that.

6 But, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, I tried. The witness seems to give wide

7 answers on questions. Could you please try to keep it in such a way

8 that --

9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, of course. I will do

10 so. And Mr. President, what we could do is to ask to go into a closed

11 session and ask the witness to give us some names, if this is a sufficient

12 guarantee. I believe that it would, but of course, this is with your

13 leave, Mr. President.

14 JUDGE ORIE: If you would like to find out about these names, then

15 we should do that in closed session. So if you think it is relevant, we

16 could go into closed session.

17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I believe that we can do so

18 and the witness may perhaps answer to this question and perhaps give us

19 three names.

20 JUDGE ORIE: We go into closed session.

21 [Closed session]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 14348

1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Certainly.

2 Q. Witness, could you do this for us, please, very briefly. You have

3 the map before you. Could you be kind enough to but some crosses

4 corresponding to each of these production facilities, accompanied by

5 numbers. Do not tell us what these are all about. And on Monday, we will

6 talk about what they represent. So just draw the crosses and then we

7 shall end your examination of today. So just put some crosses there. And

8 write numbers two, three, and so on and so forth.

9 A. I need another map because we cannot see the south-east part of

10 the city.

11 Q. Very well. But there are no other sites that you could indicate

12 to us on this map?

13 A. Well, there was Hum, and then Zrak would be here, and the

14 television station should be here. So we don't have those parts, they are

15 missing.

16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well, Mr. President. We

17 can cover this during the next session. It would be probably wiser to do

18 so. Thank you.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

20 We have to stop at a quarter to 7.00, Mr. DP10. Unfortunately,

21 since we are not sitting on Thursday and Friday, exceptionally, we will

22 continue only on next Monday and that would be in the morning at 9.00. So

23 I hope to see you then again. You are ordered not to speak with anyone

24 about the testimony you gave in this court. So that would be valid up

25 until Monday. Yes.

Page 14349

1 Mr. Usher, could you please escort the witness out of the

2 courtroom. Although I do hesitate, if there is any specific issues that

3 have to be dealt with by the parties that could wait until next Monday, I

4 know that we are -- there is a couple of days.

5 Yes, Mr. Mundis.

6 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, very quickly if I could. I note that

7 this witness has been talking for the past 10 or 15 minutes about

8 locations of mortar production or shell production facilities. And I do

9 draw to the attention of the Chamber that this is not included in the

10 expanded 65 Rule ter statement that we received from the Defence and

11 perhaps if Mr. Piletta-Zanin --

12 THE INTERPRETER: Slow down, Mr. Mundis, please.

13 JUDGE ORIE: I would not blame the Defence for that since it

14 resulted from a question I put to the witness as to the production of

15 mortars where I asked questions about precisions of mortars. So it's -- I

16 cannot imagine that it would not have been expected by the Defence that

17 this information would come up. On the other hand, if it is not

18 specifically sought, of course, one could wonder how much attention we

19 will pay to it on the whole. But I would in this case not blame the

20 Defence for not having it put in its summary.

21 MR. MUNDIS: That was just a prefatory statement, Mr. President.

22 I note that the expanded summary that we received with respect to this

23 witness was faxed on the 13th of October. And perhaps in light of the

24 Chamber's ruling, oral ruling, yesterday with respect to the specifics

25 that should be in the Rule 65 ter, or the expanded 65 ter summaries, I do

Page 14350

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

Page 14351

1 note that this witness is -- the statement is -- his testimony is relevant

2 for scheduled sniping incidents number 15 and 20. And perhaps during the

3 course of the next couple of days prior to Monday, if we could be given

4 any additional information that the Defence expects to lead from this

5 witness, that would be greatly appreciated

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that is sniping incidents 15 and 20 the Chamber

7 instructed the Defence to give details, if there are any details, as to

8 the relevance for his testimony on these two sniping incidents.

9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well. I have a feeling

10 that we will be in close contact with the Prosecution. If I am not

11 mistaken, we are mainly talking about the incident number 10 if my memory

12 serves me well, but I should verify this.

13 JUDGE ORIE: In the summary, the last line of the summary is --

14 his testimony is relevant for scheduled sniping incidents number 15 and

15 20. Would you say that -- and that is language that differs a bit from

16 what we find at the end of some other summaries, where it often says, he

17 will speak about facts important for scheduled sniping incidents, et

18 cetera, et cetera. So the language is different here. If there are

19 specific facts apart from those already mentioned in the summary, that

20 would be relevant for sniping incidents number 15 and 20, you should

21 inform the Prosecution. If it is just that you indicated that these

22 subjects as such bear some relevance for these scheduled sniping

23 incidents, then of course there are no new facts to be expected to come up

24 during the testimony.

25 No other points? Could the Prosecution be informed not later than

Page 14352

1 Friday about this. And assistance is offered as always.

2 Is there any issue you would like to raise and which is really

3 necessary to be raised until next Monday?

4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No. I still -- I am still

5 waiting for my answers, but I am used to it. I am getting used to it. So

6 nothing more to add.

7 JUDGE ORIE: We will adjourn until next Monday morning, 9.00, same

8 courtroom.

9 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

10 6.50 p.m., to be reconvened on Monday,

11 the 28th day of October, 2002, at 9.00 a.m.