Page 14642
1 Thursday, 31 October 2002
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.03 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone in the courtroom.
6 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Case number IT-98-29-T, the Prosecutor versus
8 Stanislav Galic.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
10 Before we continue the examination of the present witness, I'd
11 like to inform the parties that the Chamber got copies of a letter of
12 Mr. Ierace to the Defence of the 30th of October, 2002 in response of a
13 telefax message of 30th Octobe r 2002 from Ms. Pilipovic, which contains a
14 list of Defence exhibits. The Prosecution is right that such a list of
15 exhibits should indicate through which witness the documents will be
16 tendered.
17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Before you render any
20 decision, we have scrupulously followed the procedure requested in this
21 morning, the letter in response to the Prosecutor. And before you give us
22 the decision, we wanted you to know what our response to the Prosecutor
23 was, that is, that there was a correspondence in the night. The letter
24 was addressed directly to the number given for Ms. Kelly Philpott. And I
25 checked it this morning. The response is somewhere in the organisation,
Page 14643
1 but I don't know how this letter can be delivered. We sent it in the
2 night and it didn't arrive. So I want to be a messenger and maybe bring
3 the letter myself but that would be a waste of time. So there is a
4 response dated the 30th. It's extremely detailed. And before you render
5 any decision, we just wanted you to have a look at the response. Thank
6 you.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. May I remind the Defence that if faxes are sent
8 over in the night that hard copies are available for the Chamber in the
9 morning.
10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, you could
11 perhaps have a hard copy during the break. This is something that I could
12 do.
13 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... if faxes are
14 sent overnight -- and the Chamber highly appreciates the efforts made by
15 the Defence even to work at night -- but then in order to be fully
16 informed, the Chamber would like to receive hard copies the next morning
17 so that we at least can read them, and we'll read them during the first
18 break. We'll leave then the issue until -- until after the break.
19 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And at the same time, the Registry will try to
21 see whether the fax could be retrieved at this very moment.
22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mundis.
24 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, the Prosecution would also appreciate
25 hard copy faxes in that situation, particularly if Mr. Piletta-Zanin faxes
Page 14644
1 it to the Registry. As a large organisation, a fax that is sent to the
2 Registry might take two days before it reaches OTP in the course of the
3 internal mail system. Thank you.
4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the Defence
5 does as much as it can to fax at the same time to the Prosecutor and to
6 what we call the senior legal --
7 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... wait until we
8 have received copies. It's not a matter on which we should waste time in
9 court. The Chamber will look at the response, and then we'll decide when
10 and where this exchange of information needs further attention. Whether
11 this would be in court or whether this would be at a 7.30 morning meeting.
12 Mr. Usher, the witness is standing by, I take it. Could you
13 please escort him into the courtroom.
14 [The witness entered court]
15 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Mr. Vukovic.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
17 JUDGE ORIE: From your answer, I do understand that you can hear
18 me in a language you can understand. May I remind you that you are still
19 bound by the solemn declaration you gave at the beginning of your
20 testimony.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
22 JUDGE ORIE: And then you'll be further examined by counsel for
23 the Defence.
24 Mr. Piletta-Zanin..
25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
Page 14645
1 WITNESS: GORDAN VUKOVIC [Resumed]
2 [Witness answered through interpreter]
3 Examined by Mr. Piletta-Zanin: [Continued]
4 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, witness.
5 A. Good morning.
6 Q. Yesterday we broke during the question about the areas that you
7 mentioned, zones like Grbavica, Ilidza, et cetera. Referring to those
8 areas that you mentioned, were these areas in some way enclosed? That is,
9 were people able to leave normally regarding the war conditions and so on?
10 What can you tell us about this?
11 A. Since these areas were enclosed, were surrounded, the movement was
12 very difficult.
13 Q. Thank you. Witness, I'd like to come back more in detail on the
14 Lukavica area. You knew this area. From the site of the Lukavica
15 barracks, what could one see looking in the direction of Dobrinja?
16 A. You are able to see the roofs of buildings in Dobrinja.
17 Q. Which Dobrinja are we talking about?
18 A. We're talk about Dobrinja IV.
19 Q. Dobrinja IV? And that is in the Serb part that we looked at?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Was one able to see even further?
22 A. Well, in the distance you could see a little bit.
23 Q. Very well. From the top floor of the Lukavica barracks, was it
24 possible to specifically see just behind the very first line of the
25 buildings in Dobrinja IV which is under Serb control; yes or no, please?
Page 14646
1 A. No.
2 Q. Thank you. Now, witness - I'm sorry - I'd like to come back to
3 two matters with respect to the destructions in Sarajevo in general.
4 According to what you personally know about the facts, could you tell us
5 when - and I mean during which period in general - was it that the major
6 part of destruction of buildings occurred during this war. Was it the
7 beginning, middle, or the end?
8 A. I think by the end of 1992 and beginning of 1993.
9 Q. Thank you. I am now going to come back to cultural facilities.
10 Do you know about high-ranking cultural facilities like religious
11 buildings, mosques, that were targeted and destroyed in the part of
12 Sarajevo that remained in the hands of the BH side?
13 A. No.
14 Q. When you were in Lukavica, you said that you were able to travel
15 to two or three areas, like Grbavica, like Ilijas and so on -- sorry,
16 Ilidza, I meant. Were you able to see the city from these areas, the
17 city -- part of the city that remained under the control of the BH side?
18 A. You were able to see the first buildings on the front line.
19 Q. Very well. Were you able to see the areas where the mosques were?
20 A. Some of them, yes.
21 Q. Were these minarets up? Were they standing?
22 A. At that time, yes.
23 Q. Thank you very much.
24 Do you have knowledge of any churches, whatever they were,
25 Orthodox, Catholic, or even Protestant churches that were shelled by the
Page 14647
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Page 14648
1 Serb forces; yes or no?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Thank you very much.
4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No further questions,
5 Mr. President.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
7 Is the Prosecution ready to cross-examine the witness?
8 MR. MUNDIS: Yes, Mr. President.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
10 Cross-examined by Mr. Mundis:
11 Q. Good morning, witness.
12 A. Good morning.
13 Q. Can you tell us which company -- you've told us that you were a
14 military police officer. Which company were you assigned to?
15 A. That was the Battalion Military Police at the Sarajevo-Romanija
16 Corps -- or with the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps.
17 Q. Was this the 4th Military Police Battalion?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Was the 4th Military Police Battalion broken down into companies,
20 military police companies?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Do you recall how many companies were in the battalion?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. How many companies were in the battalion during the time period
25 that you were a member of the 4th Military Police Battalion?
Page 14649
1 A. There were three companies.
2 Q. And which of these three companies were you assigned to?
3 A. The 1st Company.
4 Q. During the period from September 1992 through August 1994, did you
5 remain throughout that period in the 1st Company?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. What rank did you personally hold during that time period?
8 A. I was an ordinary soldier.
9 Q. Do you recall the name of your company commander during this time
10 period?
11 A. Yes.
12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I wasn't paying attention --
15 pardon me. I was inattentive, but I believe that the testimony of this
16 person consisted of saying that he stayed with the army in Sarajevo until
17 October 1993, I believe. He said yesterday, and we can certainly find the
18 place -- so asking the question until -- where he was until August 1994,
19 it seems to be the result of an erroneous reading, or perhaps this
20 question would not be acceptable as it is asked with reference to
21 chronology. So perhaps the Prosecutor could tell us where did he stay
22 until August 1993.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I -- it's not my recollection. I don't know,
24 Mr. Mundis, whether you have in your mind that the witness testified that
25 he was only during a limited period in Sarajevo.
Page 14650
1 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, I'd ask that before I say anything
2 further that the witness remove his headphones.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
4 Could you please take off your headphones.
5 MR. MUNDIS: I recall the witness yesterday testifying about
6 events up to 1993 but I don't recall the Defence specifically asking him
7 beyond that time period where he was or what he was doing, in the first
8 instance. In the second instance, I think the question that I put to the
9 witness was quite clear. His answer was quite clear. He offered no
10 clarification or correction to the question that I posed to him.
11 And number three, again, Mr. President, the Prosecution would
12 submit that the comments just made by Mr. Piletta-Zanin were inappropriate
13 in the witness's presence with the witness wearing his headphones.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Piletta-Zanin, what would have been
15 appropriate if you would be right - we'll check that - would be that the
16 question would misrepresent the testimony of the witness and would
17 therefore be inadmissible and then you would have had to ask the witness
18 to take off his headphones and then you could have pointed to in what
19 respect in your view the testimony was misrepresented.
20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I do want to assist Mr. Mundis
23 because yesterday in line 5 of page 4006 this witness said the following:
24 [In English] "[Previous translation continues] ... until the 17th of
25 October, 1993." [Interpretation] Which means that he stayed in Lukavica
Page 14651
1 until the 17th of October, 1993. That is clear. And if he's asked
2 questions about afterwards, then that there are certain -- some questions
3 about some procedural ambushes, because that's the reason why we're
4 objecting, hoping that we will be understood properly as that there will
5 be no comments on the fact that the Defence has a right to make objections
6 certainly when they are founded, as they are now.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Whether the objections are founded is for the Chamber
8 to decide, Mr. Piletta-Zanin. We'll first check what it is.
9 The testimony of -- about the 17th of October is about his stay in
10 Lukavica. It does not say that much on what happened after the 17th of
11 October. Perhaps that could be clarified. But the testimony was not that
12 the witness was not somewhere in or near Sarajevo after the 17th of
13 October. It says that he was until the 17th of October in Lukavica.
14 Perhaps you could clarify the issue, Mr. Mundis. That would be
15 better than to spend more time on it.
16 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President.
17 JUDGE ORIE: I allowed -- yes.
18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President. Mr. President,
19 I'm not in agreement with this because I -- Mr. President, I just will
20 allow myself to say that the question is in reference to the 1st Company.
21 Of course the 1st Company that was in Sarajevo, in Lukavica. And if the
22 witness said, "I left Lukavica," he then necessarily -- there was a link
23 in Mr. Mundis's question. It was linked to the 1st Company. I think that
24 was very clear.
25 JUDGE ORIE: I allowed Mr. Mundis to clarify the issue.
Page 14652
1 Mr. Mundis, please proceed.
2 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President.
3 Q. Witness, during the time period from September 1992 through August
4 1994, did you remain a private with the 1st Military Police Company?
5 A. I was an ordinary soldier in the company of military police until
6 the 17th of October, 1993.
7 Q. Witness, what did you do after the 17th of October, 1993?
8 A. I went back to my city, where I worked at the commission for
9 refugees.
10 Q. After the 17th of October --
11 THE INTERPRETER: Humanitarian aid. The interpreter corrects
12 herself.
13 MR. MUNDIS:
14 Q. Witness, is it your testimony that after the 17th of October,
15 1993, you were demobilised?
16 A. I left because -- for medical reasons.
17 Q. So approximately 17 October 1993 you were medically discharged
18 from the VRS. Is that what you're telling us?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Witness, the 4th Military Police Battalion of the SRK, which you
21 were assigned to until the 17th of October, 1993, that battalion reported
22 directly to the corps commander, General Galic; is that correct?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. So the battalion commander reported directly to General Galic.
25 A. Not directly.
Page 14653
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Page 14654
1 Q. To whom did the battalion commander report directly?
2 A. Am I to say the name? Should I say the name?
3 JUDGE ORIE: I don't know what answer to expect, if there would be
4 any reason to turn into private session.
5 MR. MUNDIS: We can certainly go into private session.
6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President --
7 Mr. President, the problem that we want to raise here is the problem of
8 factual matters. This witness said that he was --
9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, does the witness have to take his
10 headphones off?
11 Yes. Could you please take your headphones off.
12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes. That's better.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes. What we want to do is to
15 respect the usual procedure that you imposed on the parties, that is, that
16 we check if this witness who was an ordinary soldier, that is, a private
17 without a rank, has the necessary competence to state matters regarding
18 the hierarchy and the structure of the army. That is, did he know very
19 well what type --
20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, as you usually, I would say, we
21 have to lay a factual foundation. The witness's answer to two questions,
22 the first that the presiding commander did not directly report to General
23 Galic, which suggested he had some knowledge. And the answer to the
24 second question was that he said, "Am I to say the name? Should I say the
25 name," which suggests that this witness would even know about that person.
Page 14655
1 So there's no reason at this moment to lay a further foundation as far
2 as his factual knowledge is concerned, because it appears from his
3 answers.
4 Mr. Mundis, please proceed.
5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well.
6 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, could we go into
7 private session, please.
8 JUDGE ORIE: We can go into private session if there's any
9 specific reason for that.
10 [Private session]
11 [redacted]
12 [redacted]
13 [redacted]
14 [redacted]
15 [redacted]
16 [redacted]
17 [redacted]
18 [redacted]
19 [redacted]
20 [redacted]
21 [redacted]
22 [redacted]
23 [redacted]
24 [redacted]
25 [redacted]
Page 14656
1 [redacted]
2 [Open session]
3 JUDGE ORIE: We are in open session again.
4 Please proceed, Mr. Mundis.
5 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you.
6 Q. Witness, if you know, approximately how many military police
7 officers or soldiers or -- the total strength of the 4th Military Police
8 Battalion?
9 A. I couldn't give you an exact figure, but I would say around 90
10 men.
11 Q. 90 men for the entire battalion; is that correct?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And how many men were in the 1st Military Police Company?
14 A. In the 1st Company, of which I was a member, there were 35 men.
15 Q. What were the specific roles and duties of the 4th Military Police
16 Battalion?
17 A. The specific duties were to provide security for the command,
18 escort of convoys, and patrolling.
19 Q. You also mentioned yesterday an investigative role and a policing
20 role; is that correct?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. What were the specific powers or authority that you as a military
23 police officer were vested with?
24 A. Specifically my duties were linked to logistics.
25 Q. During the time that you were with the 1st Military Police
Page 14657
1 Company, did you receive any type of training as a military police
2 officer?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. What type of training did you receive?
5 A. I went through basic police training.
6 Q. What did that consist of?
7 A. Could you be more precise, please.
8 Q. Did you have any training on military law or military regulations?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Did you have any training on how to make an arrest of someone?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Did you have training on how to restrain an individual either
13 during the course of that arrest or after that person had been arrested?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Did you have any specialised firearms training as part of that
16 military police training?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Did you have any training with respect to investigative
19 techniques?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Did you have any specialised training in any kind of forensic
22 evidence collection?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Witness, during the time period that you were part of the 1st
25 Military Police Company, were any members of that company, to your
Page 14658
1 knowledge, used in a combat role?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. How frequently during the time period that you were with the 1st
4 Military Police Company were members of that unit used in a combat role?
5 A. Several times.
6 Q. Do you recall in which specific areas members of your company were
7 used in combat roles?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Can you please tell us which areas those members were used in
10 combat roles.
11 A. You mean the locations?
12 Q. Yes, please.
13 A. I can mention Dobrinja IV, Pecinica, Grbavica.
14 Q. With respect to Dobrinja IV, do you recall the approximate time
15 period in which military police forces were used in combat roles?
16 A. At Dobrinja IV?
17 Q. Yes.
18 A. I think this was the end of June 1992 when the first operation
19 took place.
20 Q. Do you recall if they were so used in that role at any other time
21 in Dobrinja IV?
22 A. That was the only operation of any size during the time I was
23 there.
24 Q. You also mentioned Pecinica. Do you recall approximately what
25 time period or time periods military police forces were used in a combat
Page 14659
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Page 14660
1 role in that area?
2 A. I think it was July 1992.
3 Q. Was that the only time period those forces were used in Pecinica?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Can you tell us at what other time periods such forces were used
6 in Pecinica.
7 A. It was once.
8 Q. When was that, witness?
9 A. I couldn't say exactly, but I think it was July 1992.
10 Q. Let's turn now to Grbavica. Do you recall the specific date or
11 time period when military police units were used in a combat role in
12 Grbavica?
13 A. I couldn't give you an exact date.
14 Q. Witness, the 4th Military Police Battalion used a four-wheeled
15 armoured vehicle known as a BOV as their standard vehicle; is that
16 correct?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. During the time period that you were assigned to the 4th Military
19 Police Battalion, were the three companies that comprised that battalion
20 assigned to specific areas?
21 A. The company, yes.
22 Q. Witness, could you repeat that answer. I missed the first part.
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Where was the 1st Military Police Company assigned to - which area
25 or areas - during the time period you were with that unit?
Page 14661
1 A. The 1st Company was assigned to the Lukavica barracks.
2 Q. And the 2nd Military Police Company, if you know, where was that
3 unit assigned?
4 A. It was assigned to Pale.
5 Q. And the 3rd Military Police Company, where was that assigned?
6 A. The 3rd Military Police Company was also assigned to the barracks
7 in Lukavica.
8 Q. So two of the battalion's three companies were at Lukavica
9 barracks; is that correct?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And, witness, if you know, approximately how many personnel were
12 assigned to the 3rd Military Police Company?
13 A. I don't know the exact number.
14 Q. Was it approximately the same size as the 1st Military Police
15 Company?
16 A. Approximately, yes.
17 Q. Did the military --
18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I hesitated for a long time,
21 but I have the impression that all these questions about the size of the
22 company, the number of soldiers, the reinforcements, it is hard to
23 establish any relevance to the facts. This man was a soldier of a
24 particular company. He has told us what he knows. I don't think that the
25 size of the companies is so very relevant.
Page 14662
1 JUDGE ORIE: Please take your headphones off.
2 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, I would ask that the witness be
3 excused from the courtroom.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You would ask him to leave the courtroom?
5 MR. MUNDIS: If that's --
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
7 MR. MUNDIS: -- permissible.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Usher, could you please escort the witness out of
9 the courtroom.
10 [The witness stands down]
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Mundis.
12 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President. And just for the record, I
13 asked that the witness be escorted out because it seemed to me from where
14 I was standing that the witness was able to read the transcript on the
15 screen as I was asking him questions.
16 Mr. President, in the first place -- at the first instance let me
17 also put on the record that the 65 ter summaries that we received with
18 respect to this witness, as well as the expanded 65 ter statements, made
19 no reference whatsoever to the fact that this witness was a member of a
20 military police unit. Obviously, in any kind of case where we're dealing
21 with, in particular, Article 7(3) responsibility of an accused, and we've
22 got a military police person present, the Prosecution would submit that
23 anything going to the enforcement of the law is certainly of relevance,
24 and that goes to reports, investigations that may have been conducted,
25 disciplinary proceedings that may have been initiated, whether or not the
Page 14663
1 military police were sent out to arrest anyone, on the basis of such
2 charges, and given the fact that we had no notice whatsoever that this
3 witness was a member of a military police unit, in our respectful view,
4 would -- well, first of all, we believe that this evidence is relevant.
5 But second of all, I believe that I should be given some leeway to expand
6 upon the military police and the role of those people in general simply
7 because we didn't have advance notice that this witness was even a member
8 of such a unit.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I don't know whether the whole structure then
10 of the units this witness was serving in are that relevant, but the
11 Chamber also noticed yesterday that the Defence asked questions about
12 whether investigations were known to this witness as a member of a police
13 unit, and the summary does not say one single word about this witness
14 serving on a police unit.
15 Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President.
17 Perhaps -- or rather, certainly that is right. But that is not the
18 problem. The problem is that questions are being put about the size of
19 the companies, and that is why I am objecting, Mr. President. It's not
20 against anything else. It is the size that bothers us, the strength of
21 the companies.
22 JUDGE ORIE: I do understand.
23 MR. MUNDIS: If I could --
24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mundis.
25 MR. MUNDIS: If I could, Mr. President. The evidence that we've
Page 14664
1 adduced thus far in the course of this trial is that the Sarajevo-Romanija
2 Corps consisted of between 17 -- or approximately 17 to 18 thousand
3 soldiers. This witness has told us that the Military Police Battalion
4 that was assigned to that corps consisted of approximately 100 men,
5 one-third of whom were at Pale, two-thirds of whom were at Lukavica
6 barracks. It is certainly relevant in the Prosecution's submission that
7 of the approximately 70 men, 70 military police officers that were
8 available to the accused at Lukavica barracks, would certainly have
9 relevance to his ability to police and patrol those forces that were under
10 his command. We're talking about 70 military policemen being responsible
11 for the law enforcement of 17 to 18 thousand troops over a very widespread
12 confrontation line, and that certainly is relevant as far as the
13 Prosecution is concerned.
14 [Trial Chamber confers]
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The objection is denied to the extent that the
16 availability and the strength of the police units within the SRK are of
17 some relevance, Mr. Mundis, but the Chamber would invite the Prosecution
18 then to also elicit from the witness whether this was the only police
19 force or at least that we have to -- I mean, a number might be relevant,
20 but then of course it should be established as well whether this was the
21 entire available police forces.
22 MR. MUNDIS: That's exactly where I was intending to go,
23 Mr. President. And leave it at that.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Please, Mr. Usher, could you escort the witness into
25 the courtroom again.
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Page 14666
1 [The witness entered court]
2 JUDGE ORIE: I just have to explain to you that if there is any
3 procedural issue to be discussed between the parties, it's sometimes
4 better that the witness would not follow it because it might influence him
5 and the exchange of views of the parties should be kept away from a
6 witness. That's the reason why we asked you to leave the courtroom. But
7 the matter has been settled and we'll continue now.
8 Please proceed.
9 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President.
10 Q. Witness, during the time period up until your medical discharge in
11 October 1993, did the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps have one military police
12 battalion, that is, the 4th Military Police Battalion?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. So all of the corps' military police resources were in that one
15 battalion; is that right?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And the two companies, that is, the 1st Company and the 3rd
18 Company, that were at Lukavica barracks, those two companies were
19 responsible for military police duties throughout the region covered by
20 this Sarajevo-Romanija Corps?
21 A. Yes.
22 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, I would like the record to reflect
23 that again I can hear noises from the other side of the room.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I couldn't hear it through my earphones -- at
25 least, I heard something.
Page 14667
1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, once again the
2 Prosecution is saying something that is not true. We didn't say anything.
3 I was just writing. Maybe the pen scratching the paper. What did I do?
4 JUDGE ORIE: General Galic -- General Galic did you try to draw
5 the attention of counsel? Is that ...?
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It is true that I did wish to draw
7 the attention of my counsel, not as loudly as Mr. Mundis seems to think,
8 but it is true, yes. Thank you.
9 JUDGE ORIE: If there's any need to confer with counsel, perhaps
10 you -- perhaps you'd do it even louder and say "Mr. President" or
11 something like that, so that I know that you need to confer with counsel
12 and that no misunderstandings will come up. So it was not a scratching of
13 your pen, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, and it was heard by the Prosecution.
14 Whenever you need to confer with counsel, General Galic, please
15 say it as loud as possible if -- to me, and then I'll stop the examination
16 of the witness and I'll give you an opportunity to do so. Yes?
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. But
18 Mr. Piletta-Zanin didn't hear me. If he had heard me, he would have
19 turned around. So it's my mistake. I do apologise. I usually say
20 something very quietly. May I? I say it very quietly or I ask you for
21 your permission to consult.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, if you allow
25 me, and so long as it won't upset the Prosecution, I would like to confer
Page 14668
1 with the accused.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
3 [Defence counsel and accused confer]
4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you for your patience.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Mundis, please proceed.
6 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President.
7 Q. Witness, to your knowledge, did each of the brigades within the
8 Sarajevo-Romanija Corps also have a military company assigned to that
9 brigade?
10 A. I don't have any knowledge about that.
11 Q. Witness, in the 1st Military Police Company of the 4th Military
12 Police Battalion, that is, your unit, whom did you receive your orders
13 from?
14 A. We received orders from our superior, and that was the company
15 commander.
16 Q. Do you know whom the company commander received his orders from?
17 Would that be the battalion commander?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Witness, I'm aware that you at some point became responsible for
20 the logistics within your unit. Can you remind me approximately when that
21 was that you assumed responsibility for the logistics.
22 A. I took over responsibility at the beginning of June 1992.
23 Q. So throughout the period from June 1992 through October 1993 your
24 responsibilities were in the area of logistics within your unit; is that
25 correct?
Page 14669
1 A. Until the 1st of July, 1993.
2 Q. And you were injured approximately on the 1st of July, 1993; is
3 that right?
4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, objection. I
5 should like to know where with precision this witness said that he had
6 been wounded or injured, the word used by the Prosecution. I would like
7 the exact spot to be indicated for me in the LiveNote.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
9 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, I'm simply asking the witness a
10 question.
11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President, but the
12 witness never said that he had been injured, so I'd like to be told where
13 he said so in the transcript.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You -- Mr. Mundis, you asked the witness -- I
15 think you injured approximately on the 1st of July, 1993; is that right?
16 That's what you asked the witness. That suggests, of course -- leading
17 questions are not inadmissible during the -- during cross-examination. On
18 the other hand, if there would be serious reasons to believe that the
19 medical situation of the witness would not be due to any injuries, then --
20 but I'm not clear in my recollection whether the witness said something
21 about that yesterday. But it's -- I mean, it's not very -- it's not of
22 great assistance to create this kind of confusion and --
23 MR. MUNDIS: I'll move on.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes?
25 MR. MUNDIS: Yes.
Page 14670
1 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Yes, please.
2 MR. MUNDIS:
3 Q. Witness you told us you were medically discharged on the 17th of
4 October, 1993; is that correct?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. What were your military duties between the 1st of July, 1993 and
7 the time you were medically discharged on the 17th of October, 1993?
8 A. I was just an ordinary soldier.
9 JUDGE ORIE: May I just perhaps assist the parties. Yesterday the
10 witness said: "In Lukavica I was an ordinary soldier and as I had been
11 hurt, injured, I was relieved of certain activities, so I mainly worked in
12 logistics and I did guard duty."
13 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, the objection was --
14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President.
15 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... in that respect.
16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President.
17 JUDGE ORIE: We're not going to discuss any more about this. But
18 you wanted to have the source of the injuries. I gave it to you. I don't
19 know whether it corresponds exactly, but it's page 14609. Please proceed,
20 Mr. Mundis.
21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President.
22 JUDGE ORIE: No, Mr. Piletta-Zanin. I allowed Mr. Mundis --
23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Our rights have been offended.
24 JUDGE ORIE: -- to proceed. And just before the break, I'll give
25 you an opportunity to respond.
Page 14671
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Page 14672
1 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President.
2 Q. Witness, you said after the 1st of July, 1993 that you were just
3 an ordinary soldier. Does that mean an ordinary soldier in the military
4 police -- the 1st Military Police Company or were you no longer assigned
5 to that unit after July 1st, 1993?
6 A. I was just an ordinary soldier in that company.
7 Q. In the 1st Military Police Company; is that correct?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Witness, during the time that you were assigned to the 1st
10 Military Police Company, do you know if that unit received orders to
11 conduct investigations?
12 A. Investigations were conducted.
13 Q. And, witness, during the time you were with the 1st Military
14 Police Company, did that company have regular training meetings or weekly
15 meetings where all the members of the unit were brought together?
16 A. Meetings were mostly held once a fortnight.
17 Q. And during the course of those meetings, were you provided with
18 updates and general information about what was -- the unit was -- what
19 mission the unit was undertaking?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Did you also have --
22 JUDGE ORIE: We have to stop for a moment because the LiveNote is
23 not functioning well. I do understand that the interpreters -- technical
24 problems have been solved.
25 Please continue.
Page 14673
1 MR. MUNDIS:
2 Q. Did you also, witness, during the time you were with the 1st
3 Military Police Company discuss with other members of that unit the type
4 of work that they were doing?
5 A. Not so often.
6 Q. What type of offences were most prevalent during the time you were
7 with the 1st Military Police Company?
8 A. Most frequently that would be detention, one to two days.
9 Q. For what kind of crimes would people be detained for one or two
10 days?
11 A. It was mostly being late from -- when returning from home or
12 drunkenness.
13 Q. How frequently, to your recollection, was drunkenness an issue for
14 someone being arrested?
15 A. Not to frequently.
16 Q. Do you recall any specific incidents involving drunkenness? Do
17 any of them come to mind?
18 A. No.
19 Q. I believe, witness, you testified yesterday about drunk soldiers
20 being on the line, and I believe you were -- you were asked if it happened
21 that soldiers would get intoxicated, and you answered that there were
22 cases. Do you recall any cases where soldiers who were on the front lines
23 were arrested for being intoxicated?
24 A. They would be removed from their position.
25 Q. How frequently do you recall that being the case, that someone was
Page 14674
1 removed for drunkenness?
2 A. There were cases but not so frequently.
3 Q. In any of the instances that you recall someone being removed for
4 drunkenness, do you recall whether there were any allegations that those
5 individuals had shot at civilians?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Do you recall any instances involving soldiers who were
8 intoxicated and had allegedly fired artillery pieces or mortar pieces at
9 civilians due to their intoxication?
10 A. I don't have that information.
11 Q. You don't recall hearing anything like that; is that what you're
12 telling us?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Do you recall whether during the time you were with the 1st
15 Military Police Company anyone was arrested for violating an order?
16 A. No, I don't recall.
17 Q. How was information concerning the arrests reported up the chain
18 of command?
19 A. We were given the information by the company commander.
20 Q. Let me rephrase my question to make it a little more clear. If a
21 member of your company arrested a soldier, what would they do with that
22 soldier? Where would they take them?
23 A. He would be brought to the barracks, where an interview would be
24 held with him, and there would be investigation conducted.
25 Q. And in some instances I assume the investigation would lead to
Page 14675
1 some kind of charges being preferred against an individual?
2 A. Could you please be clearer.
3 Q. Some of the individuals who were arrested were then investigated;
4 is that right?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And on the basis of the investigation, were some of those people
7 then charged with crimes?
8 A. I couldn't give you a precise answer.
9 Q. Does that mean that you don't remember any instance where anyone
10 that your unit arrested was ever charged -- formally charged with an
11 offence?
12 A. I don't recall.
13 Q. Do you recall during the time period that your company was at
14 Lukavica barracks whether there were any kind of court martials or
15 disciplinary proceedings that were held while you were there?
16 A. There was no court martial in Lukavica.
17 Q. Can you tell us, witness, if you know, a little bit about the
18 relationship between the infantry and artillery soldiers in the
19 Sarajevo-Romanija Corps and the military police.
20 A. Could you be more precise, please.
21 Q. Did you -- did the soldiers who were on the front line and the
22 military police have a good relationship? Was there a good relationship
23 between those two types of troops?
24 A. The relationship was good, relatively good.
25 Q. Were you aware in November of 1992 about incidents where morale
Page 14676
1 between the military police and the front line units was particularly
2 strained?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Did you ever hear of an incident in which two soldiers were killed
5 and two soldiers were wounded by a military police BOV as a result of the
6 negligence of one of the gunners in that military police vehicle?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Witness, what was the most serious crime that you can remember
9 being investigated by your military police company during the time that
10 you were there?
11 A. Could you be more precise.
12 Q. Did you ever -- did your unit ever to your knowledge investigate
13 anyone for sniping at civilians?
14 A. I don't know anything about that.
15 Q. To your knowledge, did anyone in your unit investigate anyone for
16 firing artillery or mortars at civilians?
17 A. I have no knowledge of that.
18 [Prosecution counsel confer]
19 MR. MUNDIS:
20 Q. Do you recall during the time you were present whether your unit
21 investigated anyone -- any SRK soldiers for murdering other SRK soldiers?
22 A. I have no knowledge of that.
23 Q. Witness, during the time that you were in a military police -- in
24 the 1st Military Police Company, did you ever see any kind of weapon that
25 might be characterised as a sniper weapon?
Page 14677
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Page 14678
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. What kind of weapon did you see, if you know the make of that
3 weapon?
4 A. It was an army rifle with a sniper sight, I think.
5 Q. Was this just one rifle that you saw or was it more than one?
6 A. One.
7 Q. Do you recall where you saw this sniper rifle?
8 A. It was in the company.
9 Q. That is, in the company headquarters building?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And the company headquarters building is located or was located at
12 Lukavica barracks?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. What -- based on your military police training, what use would a
15 military police company have for a sniper rifle?
16 A. There was no special training for snipers.
17 Q. Witness, do you know where the corps commander's office was
18 located on the Lukavica barracks facility?
19 A. I do.
20 Q. Where was the corps commander's headquarters in relation to the
21 1st Military Police Company headquarters where you saw the sniper rifle?
22 A. In another building.
23 Q. Approximately how far were those two buildings from one another?
24 A. There was a street between them, perhaps 5, 6 metres.
25 Q. Witness, to your knowledge, during the time that you were with the
Page 14679
1 1st Military Police Company, did the corps commander ever visit your
2 headquarters building?
3 A. Could you be more precise.
4 Q. During the time period that you were with the 1st Military Police
5 Company at Lukavica barracks, did the corps commander, General Stanislav
6 Galic, ever visit that building to your knowledge?
7 A. I couldn't give you a precise answer.
8 Q. Did you ever see the corps commander in your military company's --
9 military police company headquarter building?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Did you ever hear from anyone that General Galic had been in your
12 building?
13 A. I don't recall.
14 Q. Did you ever see a photograph of General Galic that was taken
15 during a visit to your building?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Witness, during the time that you were stationed at Lukavica
18 barracks, did you ever personally enter the corps commander's office?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Did you ever go into the corps command headquarters building?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. For what purpose did you enter that building?
23 A. I was guarding the entrance to the building. I was on guard duty.
24 Q. While you were standing guard duty, did you ever see the accused,
25 General Galic, enter that building or -- did you also see him exit the
Page 14680
1 building?
2 A. Yes. Yes.
3 Q. How frequently did you stand guard duty?
4 A. One shift, so one shift out of 24 hours -- eight hours out of 24.
5 Q. How many eight-hour shifts do you recall doing at guard duty
6 outside the command headquarters?
7 A. I couldn't tell you precisely.
8 Q. More than five?
9 A. I said that I couldn't tell you precisely.
10 Q. Can you give me an approximation? Was it 5 times, 10, 15, 20?
11 A. More than five.
12 Q. During the time that you stood guard duty outside the building,
13 did you also have the opportunity to go inside that building?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Where inside the building did you go?
16 A. Could you be more precise?
17 Q. There were several or quite a few offices in that building; is
18 that right?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Did you enter any of those offices?
21 A. In one of them, yes.
22 Q. In which office did you go?
23 A. The office of the senior officer under whom was the command of the
24 military police.
25 Q. And --
Page 14681
1 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, we may have to go into private session
2 for a moment.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We'll then go into private session.
4 [Private session]
5 [redacted]
6 [redacted]
7 [redacted]
8 [redacted]
9 [redacted]
10 [redacted]
11 [redacted]
12 [redacted]
13 [redacted]
14 [redacted]
15 [redacted]
16 [redacted]
17 [redacted]
18 [redacted]
19 [redacted]
20 [redacted]
21 [redacted]
22 [redacted]
23 [redacted]
24 [redacted]
25 [redacted]
Page 14682
1 [redacted]
2 [redacted]
3 [redacted]
4 [redacted]
5 [redacted]
6 [redacted]
7 [redacted]
8 [Open session]
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If you could try to do that in approximately 15
10 minutes, which would result in approximately the same time used by the
11 Prosecution as the Defence used in the examination-in-chief.
12 Yes, Mr. --
13 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, might I raise something briefly before
14 we adjourn for the break.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Perhaps we'll first ask the usher to escort the
16 witness out of the courtroom. We'll resume in approximately half an hour,
17 Mr. Vukovic, so --
18 And before giving you the opportunity, Mr. Ierace, I promised
19 Mr. Piletta-Zanin that he would get an opportunity to respond to an
20 earlier event in this courtroom.
21 But before giving you the opportunity, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, I
22 perhaps first will inform you of the following: You asked about a
23 reference of injuries or being injured that was contained in a question of
24 the Prosecution. It took us some time to try to find out what was the
25 factual basis of that. Mr. Mundis then reformulated his question. He
Page 14683
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13 English transcripts.
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Page 14684
1 didn't rely upon that question any more. I then gave you a source where
2 the witness testified that he was injured. I did that as an indication on
3 how easy it was to retrieve that. And when you further wanted to discuss
4 that, I stopped you because since Mr. Mundis had reformulated his
5 question, there was no need for any further discussion of the issue as
6 such. But you -- I told you that you would have an opportunity to make
7 whatever submission you'd liking to do in that respect. You'll get one
8 minute for that. We'll hear in that minute whether you need more.
9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. The
10 reason is very simple: Mr. Mundis's question was, "So you were injured
11 approximately on the 1st of July, 1993." That's page 24, line 8. "Is
12 that correct?" Very well. Now, before that the previous question was on
13 page 24, line 6, "So throughout the period when you were -- from June to
14 October 1993, you remember assigned to logistics; is that correct?" Very
15 well. Now, Mr. President, you reasoned to tell us that on page 14609 the
16 witness did give an answer but he gave an answer about his injury when I
17 asked the question regarding his evacuation from the Viktor Bubanj
18 barracks. So I said, "From the moment when you were evacuated, what
19 happened?" And then he said, in answer, "Since I was injured --" and he
20 was referring to his treatment in the prison where he was. "Because I was
21 injured, I had been injured, I was assigned to the logistics." So the
22 chronology was extremely clear. From the moment when --
23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, what you're doing now is to
24 explain why your objection was justified. As I told you before, there was
25 no further need to discuss this matter because Mr. Mundis reformulated his
Page 14685
1 question. You didn't say anything about chronological order. You said,
2 "Where did the witness say that he was injured? Could you tell me
3 whether he said that." Well, he was talking about injuries, and I think
4 the matter has been solved. Then there's no further need to discuss that
5 matter because by reformulating Mr. Mundis well, made the issue a relevant
6 one and we could proceed. And what you are telling us now I think is not
7 a matter that should be pursued any further. You take it that you're
8 entitled to ask to the injuries. I told you where he talked about the
9 injuries. You think that your objection was -- at least your request was
10 justified. I'm not going to rule on that. It's just the matter became
11 irrelevant because Mr. Mundis proceeded in another way and I informed you
12 where you could find the word "injury" and that's what you asked for.
13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, what I just
18 wanted to say very clearly was that the Defence believes that the
19 principle of equitable trial is no longer respected when we make an
20 objection and when we're treated in this way, we believe that there is a
21 lack of balance. That's what I'm saying. And this is a very pertinent
22 example. That's what I just said, and I have to say it for the purpose of
23 General Galic's defence.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Always, if an objection is based on the formulation
25 of a question and if the other party reformulates the question in such a
Page 14686
1 way that the objection is not valid any more - and that's what Mr. Mundis
2 did - then the question has become irrelevant for the further proceedings.
3 But the Chamber has of course listened carefully to your submissions at
4 this moment.
5 Mr. Ierace.
6 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President. In relation to the next
7 witness, I would be grateful if the Defence could indicate at some stage
8 in the next hour or so whether they believe they have provided us with
9 further expansion of the 65 ter summary since that which was provided to
10 us on the 13th of October, 2002. I make that request because there have
11 been a number of letters which we have received from the Defence in
12 French, including this morning, and the issue is that in the letter of the
13 13th of October, the Defence indicated that witness would give evidence
14 relevant to five different scheduled sniping incidents and there is no
15 detail at all as to what that evidence is. So the first step is to
16 clarify whether the Defence says it has given us further information. I
17 thought if I made that request at this stage before the break, ultimately
18 it might save time. Thank you.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Or is it contained in the overall? Because we
20 received a large set of newly formulated 65 ter summaries. Is it in
21 there, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, or where could the Prosecution find the extended
22 summary?
23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I have to admit
24 I understand this no longer. I addressed a full letter, which you must
25 have seen by now. There was all the data and information that you can
Page 14687
1 imagine. And I don't know whether Mr. Ierace is speaking about this
2 letter, whether he's had a translation, although it is written in the
3 language of the Tribunal. I no longer know.
4 JUDGE ORIE: The question is quite simple, whether any further
5 extended summary after the summary provided on the 13th of October has
6 been provided and where to find it.
7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I wrote this
8 letter I don't know when. Let me find it. But I think it must have been
9 in October. I don't have the document before me. I mean, if the
10 Prosecution had telephoned me to ask me, I would have told them
11 immediately.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Let's not spend more time on it. This is merely a
13 very practical matter. I'd like to see the parties in five minutes in a
14 room that will be reported to you by the registrar. We'll find a room,
15 and we'll discuss this very practical matter in five minutes.
16 We'll adjourn until five minutes past 11.00.
17 --- Recess taken at 10.33 a.m.
18 --- On resuming at 11.09 a.m.
19 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber is happy that at least we solved some of
20 the practical problems during the break and we can now continue the
21 cross-examination of the witness.
22 Please proceed, Mr. Mundis.
23 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President.
24 Q. Witness, I have just a couple of follow-up questions from a
25 subject we discussed earlier. When your military police company was
Page 14688
1 investigating someone for serious crimes and there were grounds to
2 proceed, that is, for the investigation to go further than your unit was
3 capable of handling, would a military prosecutor become involved at some
4 point in the investigation?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. During the time that you were with the 1st Military Police
7 Company, do you remember any instance in which a military prosecutor
8 became involved in the investigation of a crime?
9 A. I couldn't give you a precise answer to that.
10 Q. I'm a bit confused by the answer, witness. Do you recall a
11 military prosecutor ever becoming involved or not?
12 A. I don't remember.
13 Q. You mentioned earlier, witness, that for some of the minor
14 offences the soldier or soldiers would be detained for one or two days.
15 Where did that detention take place?
16 A. We had a detention area within the barracks compound.
17 Q. And that's within the Lukavica barracks compound? You had a
18 military brig?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. You told us, witness, yesterday that you were responsible for
21 logistics within your unit and that one of the important orders that your
22 unit received was to conserve ammunition. Is that correct?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Now, witness, as a means of conserving ammunition, one way of
25 doing that would be to use one or two bullets instead of 100 or 200; isn't
Page 14689
1 that right?
2 A. When people were assigned to a task, ammunition was issued to
3 them. It wasn't used before that.
4 Q. I appreciate that, witness, but the question is: The fewer
5 bullets used for any particular mission or operation, the fewer bullets
6 that were used would result in conservation of those scarce ammunition
7 resources; isn't that right?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Now, the standard issue assault rifle used within the
10 Sarajevo-Romanija Corps was the Kalashnikov; is that correct?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And that weapon has three modes with respect to the trigger: The
13 safety mode, the single-shot mode, and the automatic mode; is that
14 correct?
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, as we need to
17 be very precise and we know there are several types of Kalashnikovs -
18 there are Akas and others - I think that we need to specify exactly type
19 of rifle we're talking about.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Let me ask you: You answered a question about
21 Kalashnikovs. What Kalashnikov did you have in mind?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I had in mind an automatic rifle
23 that was used by us.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Is that what you had in mind as well, Mr. Mundis?
25 MR. MUNDIS: It is indeed, Mr. President.
Page 14690
1 JUDGE ORIE: Then please proceed.
2 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you.
3 Q. Now, again, in light of the fact that this weapon had one safety
4 mode and two firing modes, the single-shot mode would conserve the most
5 ammunition; isn't that right?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. So if you were attempting to save ammunition and you were faced
8 with a military target such as a machine-gun nest, you might use that
9 weapon in the single-shot mode to attempt to take out that machine nest;
10 is that correct?
11 A. I'm afraid the question isn't clear to me.
12 Q. If you were attempting to take out a military target such as a
13 machine-gun nest and you wanted to conserve ammunition, since that was
14 your order, you would use that weapon in the single-shot mode in order to
15 save ammunition.
16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I have to object to this
19 question. The phrase as it was formulated implies that it was his order
20 to save on ammunition, and it appears that this witness was in a combat
21 situation, as we are talking about an attack on a machine-gun nest. If
22 we're talking about that, we have to know what particular situation we are
23 referring to, or is this a hypothetical question, because he's certainly
24 not a strategist regarding attacks on machine-gun nests.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mundis, the question as it is put is -- seems to
Page 14691
1 be of a hypothetical nature. That's what you intended to ask the witness.
2 MR. MUNDIS: Yes.
3 JUDGE ORIE: So could you please answer that question, then. So
4 the question is not about what you did but on whether you would use the
5 single-shot mode if you'd save -- if you'd like to follow orders that
6 would have instructed you to save ammunition as good as possible. Would
7 you then use that single mode, single-shot mode? Is the question clear to
8 you, or is it not clear to you?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's not clear to me.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please, Mr. Mundis, try to formulate the
11 question in such a way that the witness can answer it.
12 MR. MUNDIS: I'll try, Mr. President.
13 Q. Witness, if you were attempting to take out a target and you were
14 also under an obligation to conserve ammunition, you would set the weapon
15 on the single-shot mode in order to conserve ammunition; isn't that right?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And if - again, hypothetically - if the target that you were
18 attempting to take out presented a danger using that weapon in the
19 single-shot mode due to the range of the weapon, you might bring in a
20 sniper to take out that target.
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Because in fact the tactics involved with sniping require far
23 fewer ammunition resources than using machine-gun fire; isn't that
24 correct?
25 A. Yes.
Page 14692
1 Q. Witness, yesterday - and this, for the benefit of the Defence, is
2 in the draft transcript, page 64, lines 15 and 16 - you said the
3 following: "It is well known that Muslims rarely respect agreements
4 reached." Do you remember saying that, witness?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. When you say "it is well known," to whom is it well known? To you
7 personally? To a group? To a certain class of individuals? Who knows --
8 or to whom is it well known that Muslims rarely respect agreements
9 reached?
10 A. Experience teaches us that.
11 Q. When you say "teaches us that," to whom are you referring? Who is
12 the us?
13 A. Our army, shall we say.
14 Q. That would be the VRS?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Did your army learn any other -- as you put it, did your
17 experience teach your army anything else about the Muslims?
18 A. Can you be more precise.
19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I object to that question.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] It is totally irrelevant.
22 JUDGE ORIE: You're objecting on the basis of relevance.
23 Mr. Mundis.
24 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, I'd ask the witness be escorted out of
25 the courtroom, please.
Page 14693
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If -- if that's needed for your response, we'll
2 ask the witness to be escorted out.
3 The objection is there. I do understand that Mr. Mundis for
4 responding to it -- I'll give you an opportunity to further elaborate.
5 [The witness stands down]
6 JUDGE ORIE: But already for a response, the witness needs to
7 leave the courtroom.
8 If you could indicate why you think it lacks --
9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. Very
10 briefly, simply because the fact that this witness thinks this or that
11 about this or that adversary, what he intimately thinks has strictly
12 nothing to do with what the accused is charged of. And I think this is
13 taking it far too far.
14 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, it goes to bias with respect to the
15 witness's credibility.
16 [Trial Chamber confers]
17 JUDGE ORIE: Could you spend a few more words on the bias you
18 indicated, Mr. Mundis.
19 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, the witness, with respect to the
20 quotation which I just repeated from the witness's testimony, I believe
21 that that provides a basis for exploring the depth of this witness's bias
22 towards Muslims. We've had the witness testify extensively about his
23 interactions with Muslims in the Sarajevo community both prior to the
24 indictment period as well as after the indictment period. And if this
25 witness holds - and I'm -- this is what I'm attempting to explore with the
Page 14694
1 witness, if this witness holds particularly offensive viewpoints with
2 respect to Muslims, that would go to the issue of his credibility with
3 respect to what he's testified about with respect to the other side of the
4 conflict that's involved in this case. So we're -- I'm simply attempting
5 to seek from this witness his viewpoint, his personal viewpoint because
6 that goes to bias, but he's also indicated that this experience has
7 taught, as he characterised it, his army -- the army has learned
8 certain --
9 JUDGE ORIE: So do I understand you well that you say that it's
10 not just his personal bias but since he expressed himself in such a way
11 that it is well known that this might be -- such bias might be established
12 for other persons in the same circumstances as well? Is that what you
13 indicate?
14 MR. MUNDIS: That's possible. I'm -- it's difficult to ascertain
15 based on one or two questions from the witness.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
17 MR. MUNDIS: But he has said that this experience had taught the
18 VRS, and so certainly we at least have a community, potentially a
19 community bias that's involved. But I'm most particularly interested in
20 exploring with this witness the extent of this bias.
21 [Trial Chamber confers]
22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you. Very briefly,
24 Mr. President, one must always put things in context, and I think that a
25 man who saw one of his officers or maybe several of them being dragged out
Page 14695
1 of an ambulance to be killed in cold blood may believe on the basis of his
2 own experience that that was not respecting the word given. And I think
3 it could -- he could be given the benefit of the doubt because
4 unfortunately he himself saw this very well.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Mundis.
6 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, two comments in quick response.
7 First, the witness, as Your Honour has pointed out, said it was well
8 known, which might lead one to believe that it is not the result of an
9 isolated incident.
10 Second of all, and perhaps more importantly, the point that Mr.
11 Piletta-Zanin has raised goes to rehabilitating that witness perhaps on
12 redirect examination and not to the issue of any bias or credibility of
13 the issue -- credibility of the witness which is the specific issue that
14 I'm addressing you on at this moment.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We'll allow you to --
16 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, please.
17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I will be even briefer -- I
18 think we should be even briefer, because we've spent too much time on
19 this.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mundis, we'll allow you a limited number of
21 questions on the issue. And if one would expect that the Chamber would
22 hold the view that soldiers in opposite armies would feel great friendship
23 towards the soldiers of the other party, that expectation might not be a
24 very realistic one. Please proceed.
25 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President.
Page 14696
1 [The witness entered court]
2 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Mundis.
3 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President.
4 Q. Witness, you have told us that your experience taught you --
5 taught your community of the VRS that Muslims could not be trusted with
6 respect to their agreements. Did your experience teach you any other
7 lessons with respect to Muslims?
8 A. Could you be clearer, please.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Let me try to ask the question to you. You say that
10 experience taught you that Muslims rarely respected agreements reached.
11 Are there other things you -- your experience learned you about Muslims
12 such -- it could be whatever, being very good drivers or being in general
13 friendly people when you meet them or -- whatever. Do you have any other
14 view on Muslims based upon your experience?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Before the war, I lived in an
16 environment that was multi-ethnic and I had good relations with Muslims
17 who went to the same school as I did. We went to university together. We
18 were on good terms. It is this war that hit us, that changed the whole
19 situation, and they showed a totally different image.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Apart from what -- respecting the agreements, what
21 else was part of this changed image? What other respects changed your
22 perception of Muslims caused by the war?
23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Just --
25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] It's a question of
Page 14697
1 understanding by the witness. I'm not quite sure that you used the word
2 "respect."
3 JUDGE ORIE: No. What I said is in what other respect. So you
4 mentioned one that Muslims would rarely respect agreements reached.
5 That's one aspect you mentioned. Were there any other aspects -- I might
6 have said aspects. I'm not quite sure. Was your view on Muslims changed
7 in other aspects as well? Because you told us that your view on Muslims
8 was completely changed by the war.
9 If you don't understand my question, please tell me.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't understand the question.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Let me try to ask it then in a different way. You
12 told us that experience learned you that Muslims would rarely respect
13 agreements. You also told us that your view on Muslims - and you lived
14 with them before the war in normal circumstances - was completely changed
15 by the war. You mentioned this one aspect, that they would not respect
16 agreements. In what other aspects -- would you, for example, say that --
17 whatever other aspect, other than the one already mentioned, changed your
18 view on Muslims?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Let us say, for instance, their
20 attitude towards us as a nation, towards our religion, culture,
21 traditions, and so on.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I do understand that.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That would be the most important.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Mundis, please proceed.
25 MR. MUNDIS: The Prosecution has no further questions for the
Page 14698
1 witness, Mr. President.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Are there any --
3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very rapidly.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
5 Re-examined by Mr. Piletta-Zanin:
6 Q. [Interpretation] Witness, to a question of the Prosecution, you
7 were asked if you were in charge of the whole area covered by the Corps of
8 the Sarajevo-Romanija. Do you remember that?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Very well. Very well. You were asked about your area of
11 responsibility and what it was. What did you answer to that question?
12 Not for you personally. What I mean is for the military police.
13 A. I was thinking about the area of the city of Sarajevo, where we
14 went, that is, the Grbavica, Lukavica, Ilidza, that.
15 Q. Very well. Now, the duties that you had, did you have any
16 knowledge of the importance of the length of the front line in its
17 entirety with respect to the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps?
18 A. I think it was about 230 kilometres long.
19 Q. Thank you. You gave us answers about the automatic mode and the
20 single-shot mode for certain weapons, standard weapons. Could you confirm
21 that the instructions were given in general, if that is the case, not to
22 open fire except as returning fire, in response.
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Thank you.
25 A. Yes.
Page 14699
1 Q. Thank you. Witness, you spoke to us about the attitude of the
2 Muslims towards your culture and your religion. On this subject, do you
3 know if in Sarajevo at present the street names have been changed?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Have only the street names -- the Serb street names changed?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Witness, when you tell us about the attitude of Muslims towards
8 your culture and your religion, with respect to your religion what do you
9 mean exactly? Could you tell us in a nutshell, very briefly.
10 A. Could you make it clearer a little bit, please.
11 Q. Very well. I will. You spoke to us about their attitude towards
12 your religion. For instance, any unpleasant remarks, racist attitudes?
13 Are you talking about any destructive attitudes? And by this I mean in
14 the most general terms, in terms of religion, have you ever had any
15 experience of that? I'm going to rephrase my question.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Mundis. If --
17 Yes, please --
18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I will rephrase it. Thank
19 you.
20 Q. Could you tell us what was the attitude in general of the Muslims
21 in terms of the religious aspect.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Mundis.
23 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, this calls for complete speculation,
24 and we also question it on the grounds of relevance.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Yes --
Page 14700
1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I will let you decide.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could you tell us, how do you experience the
3 changed attitude of Muslims in respect of your religion - I don't know
4 what your personal religion is, but I would say the religion which is the
5 prevailing one under the Serbian population.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
7 JUDGE ORIE: How do you experience that? I mean, what do you
8 observe? How does that feel?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I noticed that there was a lot of
10 ignorance, something -- that's usually something that didn't exist,
11 something that was of lesser value.
12 JUDGE ORIE: So you experienced the change in the appreciation of
13 your religion by the Muslims; is that what you're telling us?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Any further questions, Mr. Piletta-Zanin?
16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No, Mr. President. Thank you.
17 [Trial Chamber confers]
18 JUDGE ORIE: Judge Nieto-Navia has one question for you as well.
19 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Thank you, Mr. President.
20 I am a little bit confused about one issue, so I would like you to
21 clarify that for me.
22 Questioned by the Court:
23 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: The question is the following: Your military
24 police battalion was the only one within the brigade or within the
25 Sarajevo-Romanija Corps?
Page 14701
1 A. In the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps.
2 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Thank you. That's all.
3 JUDGE ORIE: I've got one question for you. You -- perhaps more
4 than one. You told us that your barracks where the police company was
5 established in Lukavica was not in the same building as the headquarters
6 of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps; is that correct?
7 A. Yes.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Your building, was that a multi-storey building or
9 just a one-storey building?
10 A. Two floors.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Two floors. The other building of the
12 Sarajevo-Romanija Corps headquarters where you stood guard, was that also
13 a two-storey building?
14 A. It had the ground floor and one upstairs, one upper floor.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So the same as your own building; is that
16 correct?
17 A. It was lower.
18 JUDGE ORIE: It was lower. So when you say your building had two
19 floors, that means one ground floor and two upper floors; is that correct?
20 A. Yes.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You -- did you ever go to the first upper
22 floor, that is, the top floor, of the building of the Sarajevo-Romanija
23 Corps?
24 A. I went rarely because refugees were there. They were housed
25 there.
Page 14702
1 JUDGE ORIE: So in the upper floor of the headquarters of the
2 Sarajevo-Romanija Corps there were refugees there, or did I understand
3 you --
4 A. Not of the command but of the building where we were.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Let me ask you quite clearly. You have
6 answered a question of what you could see from the top floor in Lukavica
7 barracks, especially whether you could see buildings or whether you could
8 look behind buildings at a distance. What top floor did you understand
9 was the question about?
10 A. To the floor where we were.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So that means your building, one ground floor,
12 two upper floors, and there the top floor; is that correct?
13 A. Yes.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much for this answer.
15 This concludes your testimony in this court --
16 Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Just one question which stems
18 from your questions, Mr. President. Just one.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please keep in mind that top floor was already
20 raised in chief and it was not something I raised for the first time.
21 Please --
22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. But the
23 question is the following.
24 Further examination by Mr. Piletta-Zanin:
25 Q. [Interpretation] Bearing in mind, witness, of the location of the
Page 14703
1 buildings, the other building where General Galic was, in relation to
2 Dobrinja, your testimony is that you could see even less from the building
3 where General Galic was; is that correct?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Thank you.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Then this concludes your testimony in this court.
7 Mr. Vukovic, I'd like to --
8 Yes. I -- whenever I try to say that this concludes the testimony
9 of someone in this court, Mr. Vukovic, someone thinks that it might not
10 have been the conclusion yet.
11 Mr. Mundis, is there --
12 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, if I could, based on the question of
13 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, and it goes to the foundation of the witness's last
14 response and whether that could be perhaps clarified.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But that's really the last question now. One
16 more question for you.
17 Further cross-examination by Mr. Mundis:
18 Q. Witness, when asked if you could see even less from the building
19 where General Galic was, you answered yes. My question is: Were you ever
20 on the top floor of the building that housed the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps
21 and if you ever looked out the window of that building?
22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I object to the
23 question. The witness answered that he had gone into an office which was
24 located somewhere --
25 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... let's first --
Page 14704
1 could you take your earphones off.
2 As far as my recollection goes, the witness testified that he went
3 to the first floor but the second part of the question is not yet
4 answered. So perhaps you can put to the witness what his testimony was
5 and ask, then that, additional question. Yes.
6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mundis.
8 MR. MUNDIS: We're attempting to locate the previous --
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. It was on one of my -- it was in response of
10 one of my questions, as far as I remember.
11 MR. MUNDIS:
12 Q. Witness, when you were on the top floor of the Sarajevo-Romanija
13 Corps building, did you ever look out the window?
14 A. Yes.
15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I see that Mr. -- that was your question,
17 Mr. Mundis.
18 Then this really concludes your testimony in the court, Mr.
19 Vukovic. I know that it's a long way, and I can imagine that it's -- it's
20 not always easy to testify about things that have not only left perhaps
21 nice memories.
22 I thank you very much for coming. I thank you very much for
23 answering the questions of both parties and of the Judges, and I hope that
24 you have a safe trip home again.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
Page 14705
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Usher, could you please escort the witness out of
2 the courtroom.
3 [The witness withdrew]
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Ms. Pilipovic.
5 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, if I may avail myself
6 of this opportunity while the witness is leaving. The Defence would like
7 to inform the Chamber that we will have a problem with the following
8 witness since he has to leave tomorrow morning. We did not expect that
9 the cross-examination of Mr. Vukovic would take such a long time. And
10 yesterday from the Victims and Witnesses Unit we were informed that he had
11 to leave tomorrow morning.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace.
13 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, might I just make an observation about
14 that. As I said yesterday, there is a difficulty with the timetable which
15 the Defence has provided us with their witnesses.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
17 MR. IERACE: It doesn't allow for cross-examination. And --
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And you have explained to us what in the view
19 of the Prosecution is one of the reasons why. What we could do is now
20 just see how far question come. That's what we did before. What I know
21 is that we have approximately available another 40 minutes until the break
22 and then almost an hour. That would not be the time you estimated, but
23 the Chamber was very pleased to observe that you used less time for the
24 last witness as indicated before. Let's just try to see where we come and
25 let's try to do this as efficiently as possible and see what we can do,
Page 14706
1 rather than at this moment discuss the reasons and the necessity of the
2 witness to travel back.
3 Could you -- perhaps we should first deal with the --
4 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
5 JUDGE ORIE: In order to see what we can do, we'd rather deal with
6 the documents and tapes tomorrow, especially because there might be some
7 technical problems with it as well.
8 I'd first like to turn into private session to -- since no
9 decision has yet been taken on protective measures sought by the Defence.
10 [Private session]
11 [redacted]
12 [redacted]
13 [redacted]
14 [redacted]
15 [redacted]
16 [redacted]
17 [redacted]
18 [redacted]
19 [redacted]
20 [redacted]
21 [redacted]
22 [redacted]
23 [redacted]
24 [redacted]
25 [redacted]
Page 14707
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13 Pages 14707-14712 – redacted – private session
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24
25
Page 14713
1 [redacted]
2 [Open session]
3 MR. IERACE: All right. It doesn't matter, Mr. President.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, before giving testimony in this court, the
5 Rules of Procedure and Evidence require you to make a solemn declaration
6 that you speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. May
7 I invite you to make that declaration. And the text will be handed to you
8 now by the usher.
9 Would you please stand up while making that declaration.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
11 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
12 WITNESS: WITNESS DP8
13 [Witness answered through interpreter]
14 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much.
15 Please be seated. You'll first be examined by counsel for the
16 Defence.
17 Ms. Pilipovic can we start in open session or would you like to
18 return to private session?
19 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, it would be better
20 that we go into private session because I will show the witness a document
21 immediately and ask for some data about the witness.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then we'll turn into private session again.
23 [Private session]
24 [redacted]
25 [redacted]
Page 14714
1
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13 Page 14714 – redacted – private session
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Page 14715
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2 [redacted]
3 [redacted]
4 [redacted]
5 [redacted]
6 [redacted]
7 [redacted]
8 [redacted]
9 [redacted]
10 [redacted]
11 [redacted]
12 [redacted]
13 [redacted]
14 [redacted]
15 [redacted]
16 [redacted]
17 [redacted]
18 [Open session]
19 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Ms. Pilipovic.
20 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
21 Q. Mr. DP8, you told us where you were detained. Before I move on to
22 other questions, can you tell me whether you know as to whether that
23 building in 1992, 1993, and 1994 continued to be used to imprison Serbs.
24 A. Yes. It was used as some sort of a local prison, and various
25 Serbs were brought in for information interviews and were mistreated
Page 14716
1 there.
2 Q. Thank you. Mr. DP8, you told us that in May 1992 you were a
3 minor. I will ask you some questions covering the period September 1992
4 until August 1994. Can you tell us where you were in September 1992.
5 A. In September 1992 I was in Nedzarici as a member of the army. I
6 had just returned from treatment and I joined the Army of Republika
7 Srpska.
8 Q. Can you tell us when it is that you joined the Army of Republika
9 Srpska?
10 A. At the end of May. In 1992 I returned, and that is when I joined
11 the army, because I had undergone medical treatment for the injuries
12 sustained before that.
13 Q. Mr. DP8, when you say that you became a member of the Army of
14 Republika Srpska, can you tell us which military unit you belonged to.
15 A. At the time it was some sort of Territorial Defence. There were
16 patrols that people organised by themselves in Nedzarici as some sort of
17 defence. We wouldn't let anyone enter Nedzarici. Checks were made of
18 people passing through Nedzarici. We weren't really armed. I was a sort
19 of courier in those days in Nedzarici because I was under 18 years of age
20 and I hadn't done my military service.
21 Q. Can you tell us, in September 1992 this military unit that you
22 belonged to, was it the Territorial Defence or was it a military unit?
23 A. It was a military unit within the 1st Battalion of Nedzarici. We
24 called it an armoured company. We had two or three armoured vehicles
25 which were faulty and they stayed behind in the Nedzarici barracks after
Page 14717
1 the Army of Yugoslavia left and then they were repaired to some extent and
2 they were given to us.
3 Q. When you say that you were a member of an armoured company of the
4 1st Battalion, can you tell us how many men there were in your company.
5 A. There was about 15 men in our company. But when pulling out the
6 dead or the wounded or delivering food to the separation lines, we used
7 the APCs for pulling out the dead and the wounded and for distributing
8 food to the people who were already on the front line.
9 Q. Mr. DP8, I'll stop you for a moment. You say that there were 15
10 of you in the company. Who was the company commander? Did you have a
11 commander of the company?
12 A. The company commander --
13 Q. If you can't tell us his name or you don't want to tell us his
14 name --
15 A. I can give you the nickname. Miso was the nickname of the
16 commander of the armoured company at the time.
17 Q. Mr. DP8 -- you had I don't company commander.
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Who was your superior, superior to the company and the company
20 commander?
21 A. I didn't understand.
22 Q. Which battalion did your company belong to?
23 A. The 1st Battalion of Nedzarici.
24 Q. Your company commander, who did he get orders from?
25 A. From the battalion commander.
Page 14718
1 Q. Can you tell us where the command of the battalion was quartered.
2 A. The command of the 1st Battalion was quartered at the barracks in
3 Nedzarici in one of the buildings in the compound.
4 Q. Can you tell us, for the duration of the conflict - and we're
5 focussing on 1992 to September 1994 - did the command post of the 1st
6 Battalion always -- was it always in that same position?
7 A. No, not always.
8 Q. Can you tell us when, if you know, it was moved, that is, the
9 command post of the 1st Battalion?
10 A. The command post until the beginning of 1993 was in Nedzarici and
11 constantly in the barracks, until up to the beginning of 1993 when there
12 was a kind of reorginisation when the Kasindol Street, Nedzarici and the
13 airport united and that is when it became the 1st Battalion.
14 Q. Mr. DP8, can you tell us in which street -- could you repeat where
15 the command post of the 1st Battalion was later on, that is, when it was
16 moved from Nedzarici it was at the beginning of the Kasindol Street.
17 A. I don't know the exact name that it has now, but I know where it
18 was.
19 Q. Thank you. Mr. DP8, you told us that you were a member of an
20 armoured company. Can you tell us whether you had a command post.
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Can you tell us -- yes, I'm sorry. Mr. DP8, can you tell us where
23 the command post of your company was.
24 A. The command post of my company was for a time in the barracks.
25 That must have been in June. And then towards the end of 1992 we moved to
Page 14719
1 the Croatian monastery or the theology faculty, as it was called.
2 Q. You were in the theology faculty?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Mr. DP8, can you tell us whether you spent any time in that
5 building and how much time.
6 A. Yes, I did. In the period of about one year, until the company
7 command moved to Ilidza under the protection of UNPROFOR, when the
8 headquarters was moved there.
9 Q. Mr. DP8, can you be more precise. When you said that you were at
10 the building of the theology faculty, can you tell us until when? You
11 said the end of 1992?
12 A. Yes. I went there all the time, because the ambulance -- the
13 clinic was there. I would bring the wounded to the nunnery because there
14 was a medical service. People who were working in the medical service
15 were extending first aid there and then they were transferred on to the
16 hospital.
17 Q. We'll come back to the building of the theology faculty, but you
18 were not precise as to when you moved to the Energoinvest building. Can
19 you can you tell us when you moved to the Energoinvest building.
20 A. That happened towards the end of 1993. At least that is what I
21 think. I don't remember everything.
22 Q. Mr. DP8, let us clarify your answers. You said that you were at
23 the theology faculty until the end of 1992, after which you moved to the
24 Energoinvest building. And now you told us that you moved to the
25 Energoinvest building at the end of 1993. Can you be more precise?
Page 14720
1 A. I said that at first we were in the barracks. That is where the
2 headquarters were. So shall we say in September 1992 we moved to the
3 nunnery. We stayed there until the end of 1993, when UNPROFOR came, or
4 rather, Ukrainian soldiers who held guard duty in the Energoinvest
5 factory. We had a hall there where all our armoured vehicles were parked,
6 all the armoured vehicles of the brigade were then under the supervision
7 of the Ukrainian unit.
8 Q. Thank you. Mr. DP8, when you say that in 1993 you had your
9 command post at the theology faculty, you said that also the medical
10 service was accommodated there. Were there any other military units
11 accommodated there as far as you know?
12 A. The medical corps, us, our company, and some advance positions of
13 mortars, and the people manning the mortars were also accommodated there.
14 Q. Mr. DP8, in the period from 1992 through to 1994, who or, rather,
15 were you as members of the company issued orders?
16 A. Yes, throughout the duration of the war we were given orders by
17 the company commander normally.
18 Q. When you say "throughout the duration of the war by the company
19 commander," can you tell us how frequent such orders were.
20 A. At any point in time when there was shooting -- and it was very
21 frequent in Nedzarici. The Muslims were opening fire on Nedzarici
22 non-stop, and somebody would regularly be wounded and you would be given
23 orders where to pick up the wounded or a killed combatant or whatever.
24 And communication used was a telephone. The company commander probably
25 got his orders from the battalion commander, and he would send us to the
Page 14721
1 spot where we would have to carry out our assignment.
2 Q. You said that in Nedzarici combat was frequent. I think that is
3 what you said, that fire was opened very frequently. Can you tell us from
4 which positions the fire on Nedzarici came.
5 A. The Nedzarici settlement was shot at from all the various
6 positions. Nedzarici was in a valley, so fire was opened from the new old
7 people's home close to the Oslobodjne building. Then the Oslobodjne
8 building itself was a high building, so it was very useful. Then there
9 were two student hostel buildings. Then in Vojnicko Polje, Dobrinja V and
10 Mojmilo Hill. These were suitable for shooting, and they had a recoilless
11 gun located there, which they used to fire at Nedzarici throughout the
12 duration of the war.
13 Q. When you told us that these buildings were used, the buildings
14 that you listed, can you tell us with regard to the buildings in Vojnicko
15 Polje and Mojmilo. First, how high those buildings are, how many storeys.
16 A. Between six and eight storeys. The buildings in Vojnicko Polje,
17 in Dobrinja V -- again, buildings have between six and eight floors. But
18 Oslobodjne building was higher. But it was on a lower -- built at a lower
19 level, so the top was on the same level more or less as the buildings in
20 Vojnicko Polje and Dobrinja V.
21 Q. With regard to the building in Vojnicko Polje and Dobrinja V that
22 you told us about, do you personally know from which floors fire was
23 opened and using which weapons by the Army of BH?
24 A. I know personally because my house that I went to every day and
25 where my mother lived was very close to Dobrinja V. And to get to my
Page 14722
1 house, I had to use a lot of shortcuts and various protective screens
2 against rifle shots were put up. So I was never safe. In approaching
3 Dobrinja V or Vojnicko Polje or if I had to go anywhere else to
4 familiarise myself with a location for the purpose of delivering food the
5 next day or for saving the wounded, I was never safe along that route.
6 Q. In answer to a question from the defence, you told us what kind of
7 orders you were given when it came to orders to pull out the wounded or to
8 engage in combat. In addition to those orders, did you receive any other
9 orders from your superior?
10 A. At any point in time there would be meetings where the company
11 leaders would meet with the battalion commander and they would discuss
12 things and then the company leader would give us warnings and tell us that
13 we shouldn't move around unnecessarily, that we shouldn't open fire
14 unnecessarily but only in self-defence or in response to an attack by the
15 Muslim army, that we should respond with fire, things like that, that we
16 wouldn't -- that we shouldn't use our vehicles unnecessarily, that we
17 should save on petrol and things like that.
18 Q. Mr. DP8 --
19 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes. I see it's time for the
20 break.
21 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... yes.
22 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes.
23 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, might I say something in closed
24 session very quickly before we break?
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Perhaps we'll first ask the usher to escort the
Page 14723
1 witness out of the courtroom.
2 We'll have a break for 20 minutes, Mr. DP8.
3 [The witness stands down]
4 JUDGE ORIE: We'll turn in to private session.
5 [Private session]
6 [redacted]
7 [redacted]
8 [redacted]
9 [redacted]
10 [redacted]
11 [redacted]
12 [redacted]
13 [redacted]
14 [redacted]
15 [redacted]
16 [redacted]
17 [redacted]
18 [redacted]
19 [redacted]
20 [redacted]
21 [redacted]
22 [redacted]
23 [redacted]
24 [redacted]
25 [redacted]
Page 14724
1 --- Recess taken at 12.31 p.m.
2 --- On resuming at 12.50 p.m.
3 [The witness entered court]
4 [Open session]
5 JUDGE ORIE: We'll wait until the accused has arrived.
6 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, maybe I could use that time by raising
7 a procedural matter.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. In open session, I take it.
9 Yes, please.
10 MR. IERACE: We're taking steps to have a French-speaking person
11 available to us so that we can at least have some idea of the
12 correspondence given to us in French and hopefully that will speed hat
13 matters up.
14 Secondly, in the last few weeks Mr. Piletta-Zanin has been
15 speaking to us in French at meetings, which seems to negate the advantage
16 of having an English-speaking Defence counsel. Might I respectfully
17 suggest that if meetings were conducted at the senior trial attorney
18 level, that might smooth matters to some extent. Thank you.
19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President.
20 JUDGE ORIE: You may respond --
21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I would --
22 JUDGE ORIE: With just as much time as Mr. Ierace took.
23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Even less time than that.
24 Mr. Ierace, what were the words that I used in French, please?
25 JUDGE ORIE: I do understand that in the meetings that Mr. Ierace
Page 14725
1 told us that you either spoke or insisted on speaking French.
2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Indeed, Mr. President.
3 Absolutely.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. It's -- the language used in the out-of-court
5 meetings of the parties might not be an issue that needs a lot of
6 attention, if we're trying to hurry in such a way that we can see whether
7 we can finish with this witness today. So it's not the appropriate time
8 now to continue the discussion we heard of Mr. Ierace -- we heard your
9 response -- until now.
10 Please proceed, Ms. Pilipovic.
11 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
12 Q. Mr. DP8, before the break you spoke to us about the buildings that
13 you told us were used by the BH army and from which buildings firing was
14 directed in Nedzarici. Could you tell us, considering that you lived
15 there, what buildings were dominating in the Nedzarici settlement, bearing
16 in mind that we know that this is a settlement with family houses. Could
17 you tell us what are the houses that are higher than the family houses in
18 the Nedzarici settlement.
19 A. The theological faculty in Nedzarici, the monastery building, as
20 we called it. This is one of taller buildings and the rest were houses
21 with one or two stories, mostly with one storey in Nedzarici.
22 Q. The period September 1992 to August 1994 you told us that you were
23 in the building of the theological faculty. Did you visit the building of
24 the Institute for the Blind?
25 A. The entire line that was in the Nedzarici I visited it. I went
Page 14726
1 there. So I would go to the location to see how I would get to a wounded,
2 or to bring food, what would be the safest route to take. So I was on all
3 the demarcation lines of the VRS and of the BH army.
4 Q. Mr. DP8, could you tell us, in the building of the Institute for
5 the Blind, were there soldiers there?
6 A. In the building of the Institute for the Blind, there were Serbian
7 soldiers. There was a platoon of the army, and they held this position on
8 the front line. This is where their positions were.
9 Q. Mr. DP, when we're speaking about the Institute for the Blind, in
10 relation to the demarcation lines -- in relation to the Institute for the
11 Blind, how far were the demarcation lines of both armies?
12 A. The entire line in Nedzarici, there was a very little distance
13 between the two demarcation lines of the BH army and the Republika Srpska
14 army. In some places only 4 or 5 metres, so there would just be a street
15 between them. So the road that would be going in them, in one building
16 there would be Muslims and then in the other opposite there would be
17 Serbs. So in some places there would be a distance of only 5 to 6 metres.
18 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, with your leave, the
19 Defence would like to show the witness several photographs, Prosecution
20 exhibits. The Defence has stated in the exhibit list what these are, and
21 we also have these photographs. With your leave in order to speed up,
22 maybe they could be put on the ELMO.
23 The photograph is 3277 that we would like shown to the witness.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar just checks whether there are any
25 documents admitted under seal, Ms. Pilipovic.
Page 14727
1 I take that the Prosecution can check whether these are the right
2 photographs by looking at them on the ELMO, Mr. Ierace?
3 MR. IERACE: Yes.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please proceed.
5 You may just put them on the ELMO.
6 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. Mr. DP8, do you recognise this photograph? Do you recognise what
8 you see on this photograph?
9 A. Yes, I do.
10 Q. Mr. DP8, on this photograph can you see the Institute for the
11 Blind?
12 A. On this photograph, you cannot see it clearly, the Institute for
13 the Blind. It should be alongside this road, so it would be at the end of
14 this street, which is -- which goes below this house in Vojnicko Polje.
15 It's partly hiding it, this and also these -- these trees. This was in
16 the Aleja Branka Bujica Street.
17 Q. And in relation to the student hostel buildings, in your opinion,
18 could you tell us what was the view from the Institute of the Blind
19 towards this street? Could you tell us what was the name of this large
20 street?
21 A. This one or that one?
22 Q. This large one.
23 A. This large street, I don't know what it's called. I know that
24 it -- there was -- between the Vojnicko Polje and Alipasino that's where
25 it was located. I don't know its name. And this street that goes down
Page 14728
1 there, this was Aleja Branka Bujica Street. That's what it was called.
2 It demarcated the Nedzarici locality and the barracks.
3 Q. When we look at this street, the Aleja Branka Bujica Street that
4 you indicated for us, could you tell us in the period from September of
5 1992 until August of 1994 what part -- or was this street used in its
6 entirety by the BH army or by the VRS? Where were the demarcation lines
7 in relation to this street?
8 A. The demarcation lines were by the Institute for the Blind and the
9 old school, that is, Centre for the Blind, this is where the bind people
10 worked, and this is where it ended. It ended on an intersection in front
11 of the Centre for the Blind. But this street entirely until the student
12 hostel -- this student hostel -- and there's another building of the
13 student hostel, so this is not the only one. So this entire part was held
14 by the Muslim army.
15 Q. For the relevant period of time that we are talking about while
16 you were --
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Ierace.
18 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I don't think it's clear from the
19 transcript what area the witness was referring to when he said "so this
20 entire part was held by the Muslim army."
21 JUDGE ORIE: I think that's -- he referred to the street that
22 is --
23 MS. PILIPOVIC: Aleja Branka Bujica.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If the parties would agree what Aleja Branka
25 Bujica Street would be, then it would be clear. The name of the street
Page 14729
1 has been mentioned many, many times. That's the street that goes up to
2 the Institute for the Blind. Would that be sufficient, Mr. Ierace?
3 MR. IERACE: Yes. Thank you, Mr. President.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Plead please proceed.
5 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
6 Q. Mr. DP8, for the relevant period of time, considering that you
7 told us that you went to the Institute for the Blind, could you tell us
8 whether from these positions did you have a view towards this
9 intersection, this intersection that we see?
10 A. Well, from any point that I looked at from the Institute for the
11 Blind, because there were trenches by the Institute for the Blind -- you
12 couldn't see the intersection because all the streets on the Serb and on
13 the Muslim side that were near the demarcation line were protected. I've
14 already said this was an area with a kind of screen or containers with old
15 curtains, blankets, and so on, whatever was found to put up a protection,
16 protective screens.
17 And in this street in three places there were screens put up. One
18 of them went all the way up to the intersection, and some trenches that
19 they had, according to the storeys, that was hidden which linked up the
20 student hostel and Vojnicko Polje. There was also a screen there. And on
21 the demarcation line itself by the market centre, shopping centre and some
22 businesses privately owned, in front of the building of the Institute for
23 the Blind.
24 Q. Thank you, Mr. DP8.
25 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, now we would like to
Page 14730
1 show the witness another photograph.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed. And if it will be put on the ELMO in
3 such a way -- let me just have a look. That's -- yes, that's not a -- an
4 exhibit that has been admitted under seal, so it can be put on the ELMO.
5 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. Mr. DP8 --
7 JUDGE ORIE: I have to -- just have to be very careful. There's a
8 name on the photograph. Is that a protected name? I don't think so,
9 but -- no.
10 Please proceed.
11 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] I don't think it is.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
13 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
14 Q. Mr. DP8, the building that you see in front on the photograph
15 which seems to have a fence on it, do you recognise this building?
16 A. Yes, I do. One building -- in fact, there are three buildings
17 which seemed to have fences on them. Which one do you mean?
18 Q. The first one, the one which has -- which is the longest in front.
19 A. You mean this one? Yes, I do recognise it.
20 Q. Could you tell us, during the conflict from 1992 through 1994, was
21 this building damaged? And if it was, where and what was the state of
22 this house at that time?
23 A. This house during the period of time, I think that it was slightly
24 smaller. You couldn't see it from this first building, which means
25 this -- on this house it says it's a bakers. Before, it used to be a
Page 14731
1 coffee bar, a restaurant, and you couldn't see at all this building from
2 this other building. I'm absolutely certain -- I don't think. I'm
3 absolutely certain that after the war it was -- there was extra built on
4 it. There was an addition built, an extension build.
5 Q. When you told us the --
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Ierace.
7 MR. IERACE: I'm sorry, I don't follow. Which is the first
8 building from which one could not see the bakery building, if that's what
9 the witness is saying? The point is that the transcript does not make
10 that clear, let alone my lack of understanding of it.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, could you just try to clarify the
12 issue with the witness.
13 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.
14 Q. Mr. DP8, are you telling us that the house -- that the building
15 that we see in the front of the photograph, in the corner of the
16 photograph to the right, where there are some kind of fences put on it, is
17 this the building which hides the bakers --
18 A. I didn't understand the question.
19 Q. The building that we see in the front in the right-hand corner,
20 which has lines over it, that you described in the lower right corner with
21 the red roof.
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Are you telling us that this building was hiding the building
24 behind which says "bakers" on it?
25 A. No. I said that the building with the bakers on was hiding before
Page 14732
1 the building which can now be seen. It was behind it.
2 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] For the transcript, the witness
3 has just said that the building which is smaller which is in the centre of
4 photograph, which says "baker," the witness has just told us that this
5 building with baker on used to hide the building that is now in the
6 right-hand corner.
7 Q. Now that you told us all this, can you tell us in relation --
8 JUDGE ORIE: It's still not very much clear.
9 Witness, could you please first point at the building that was
10 hiding another building. Which was the building that did hide another
11 building? Is that the whole of that building or just the wide part with
12 the small red roof? Could you encircle the building --
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. This building of the bakers
14 goes alongside this long building at the front that I said that could not
15 be seen at all from Nedzarici. You couldn't see it. You could only see
16 it from the sports hall looking towards the Oslobodjne building.
17 Now, from this side to the right, that's where it was, and it was
18 not possible to see this building which you can see here in the right-hand
19 corner.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Let me just see. The whole of the building with the
21 red roof that -- where we find the black markings on, that whole building
22 was not visible, you said, from the -- if you were looking at it from
23 the -- from Nedzarici? Is that correct?
24 THE WITNESS: [No interpretation]
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Is that clear, Mr. Ierace?
Page 14733
1 MR. IERACE: Yes.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
3 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
4 Q. Mr. DP8, you told us -- you mentioned student hostels. You said
5 that it was used by the BH army. Could you tell us in what state were the
6 buildings in? Were they damaged, the buildings of the student hostel?
7 A. Certainly they were damaged, just like all the other buildings in
8 the war. This was where the demarcation line was on both sides of the
9 street, so these buildings were damaged. In some places there were no
10 windows. Some neighbourhoods -- some houses were burnt. You could see
11 all the blackened buildings and so on.
12 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I would like to show
13 the witness another photograph. This is P327900.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please do so. It can be put on the ELMO. It's
15 not protected.
16 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. Mr. DP8, do you recognise buildings in this photograph?
18 A. I do.
19 Q. Could you tell us, this building that can be seen in the foreview,
20 if we can call it the white building, which has only one level, just the
21 ground floor. Could you explain to us this building that I am describing
22 now. Could you tell us what was that and did it exist during the conflict
23 at all.
24 A. Yes, it did exist before the conflict and after the conflict.
25 That was the shopping centre, the market. There were coffee-shops and so
Page 14734
1 on.
2 Q. Could you tell us, this photograph, the way that it is, the way it
3 appears, could you tell us from which positions could have this photograph
4 been taken?
5 A. I think it was from the lateral side of the building of the
6 Institute for the Blind, which looked on to Nedzarici.
7 Q. Mr. DP8, could you tell us, this building, was this facility that
8 was used during the conflict, the one that you described just now?
9 A. The shopping centre building?
10 Q. Yes, the white building that you say that's the building of the
11 shopping centre, could you tell us was this facility used and who used it
12 during the conflict?
13 A. Throughout the war it was used and it was used by the BH army, and
14 the entire shopping centre linked to the trenches, to the buildings of the
15 Vojnicko Polje, also hidden by some screens, trenches were used. It was
16 used like a resistance line.
17 Q. Are you telling us that soldiers were in this building? Did you
18 see soldiers in that building? Were they there? Did you see them?
19 A. In this building there were soldiers, but they couldn't be seen
20 very frequently because they were well protected. It would be insane to
21 appear, to be seen. Nobody was appearing from there.
22 Q. Mr. DP8, on this photograph the street that we see, could you tell
23 us which street is this?
24 A. This street to the right which goes in front of the shopping
25 centre is this is this what you mean?
Page 14735
1 Q. Yes.
2 A. This is the Lukavicka Cesta road which goes all the way to
3 Dobrinja V and there was a demarcation of sorts, that I've already
4 explained, that was the demarcation between the Muslim army and the
5 Serbian army. So this was the only street, in this part, which -- which
6 divided the Serb positions from the Muslim positions.
7 Q. Thank you. Mr. DP8, we're going to show you another photograph
8 now.
9 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
10 JUDGE ORIE: Just for the sake of the transcript, Ms. Pilipovic,
11 Exhibit P327900 has got two numbers. The photograph you just showed was
12 ERN number 01061210/08. Please proceed.
13 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
14 Q. Mr. DP8, on this photograph do you recognise the buildings?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Could you tell us, this photograph was taken from which positions?
17 A. I think this is Djure Jaksica Street and this photograph was taken
18 behind the building of the earlier mentioned shopping centre from the
19 street itself, behind the building of the shopping centre. That's where
20 it was taken from.
21 Q. Mr. DP8, could you tell us, these build that is we see were these
22 buildings that were used or do you know who used these buildings?
23 A. This building here on the right that you can see, that was the
24 front line. So in fact, it can be seen on the previous photograph. That
25 is the first building next to Nedzarici and then the front line, it was
Page 14736
1 all for the Muslim soldiers. But all these buildings were linked, all
2 these other buildings through a system of trenches, as I've already
3 explained, and they were hidden by some screens and it was all used by the
4 army. Some companies, as we had information, they used it for a rest, so
5 they had a full military settlement, except that some Serbs lived in the
6 apartments, that they didn't allow to leave, and their families were put
7 in other apartments that used to be Serb.
8 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] For the transcript, Your Honour,
9 Mr. DP has pointed to the build that we see both in the middle and that we
10 see on the side of the photograph as the buildings that, according to him,
11 had been used by the soldiers of the BH army.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. There are always two sides on the photograph,
13 Ms. Pilipovic. You're referring to the red brick buildings with the --
14 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes.
15 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... white one.
16 Yes, please proceed.
17 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Both sides, yes.
18 Your Honour, we're talking about the right-hand side of the
19 photograph. This building was pointed by Mr. DP8 as being the building
20 that was on the front line.
21 Q. Mr. DP8, do you have any information the building that can be seen
22 on the right-hand side, that is, the red building, do you have any
23 knowledge who used this building?
24 A. Muslim soldiers used it, these buildings here. And this building
25 that can be seen right next to this white building is one building. That
Page 14737
1 means that this is -- they are together, so they were also used by them.
2 JUDGE ORIE: The witness was pointing at the building with the red
3 brick structure and not to the building at the right-hand side. Your
4 question was about the right-hand side of the photograph, but the witness
5 was pointing at the left-hand side of the photograph.
6 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, this may go to the same point, but on
7 page 89, at line 6, Mrs. Pilipovic said, "This building was pointed by
8 Mr. DP8 as being the building 'that was on the front line'." I don't
9 recollect the witness saying that that building was on the front line.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I think the witness testified that the building
11 where we see a white surface on the right-hand side of the photograph,
12 that that was the building on the front line. Is that correct? Yes.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I'll show it again. This is
14 the building that was right next to the front line, next to the
15 demarcation line of the Serb army and the Muslim army. And this is the
16 building where Muslim units were in throughout the war.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
18 MR. IERACE: Thank you.
19 JUDGE ORIE: It's entirely clear.
20 Please proceed, Ms. Pilipovic.
21 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, let me just confer.
22 [Defence counsel confer]
23 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] My colleague will ask a few more
24 questions so that we can be more efficient.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Of course I'm looking at the clock at this very
Page 14738
1 moment. I don't know how much time the Prosecution would need to
2 cross-examine the witness. We know that we lost a quarter of an hour on
3 protective measures, unnecessarily. And of course you have apologised to
4 that. But let's just see -- and may I urge the parties to be as efficient
5 as possible.
6 Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
8 What is the next number in order for our exhibits, please? 73?
9 THE REGISTRAR: D1773.
10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] That's exactly what we have.
11 I should like to submit this exhibit D1173 to the witness.
12 THE REGISTRAR: D1773.
13 THE INTERPRETER: Correction, D1773.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Could it be shown to the
16 witness, please.
17 Examined by Mr. Piletta-Zanin:
18 Q. [Interpretation] Witness, do you recognise this map; yes or no?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Thank you. Witness, would you use the pointer and point to the
21 circle that is in the middle of the map, please.
22 A. [Indicates]
23 Q. Thank you very much. Witness, could you tell us briefly what was
24 within that circle.
25 A. Within that circle there were houses, that is, Muslim houses.
Page 14739
1 Q. I'm interrupting you, witness. I'm talking about the inside of
2 the red circle, not the zone. Within the red circle, what was within that
3 red circle during the war, please? Maybe it's black for you, but
4 originally it was red. What is within the circle that you pointed to?
5 A. There were houses within that circle.
6 Q. I can't see what you're showing, as we have no picture on the
7 video. Thank you. Thank you.
8 A. [Indicates]
9 Q. It's the circle in the middle. Yes. Thank you very much.
10 Witness, could you please tell us now, to the right of that
11 circle -- point the pointer to the right of that circle.
12 A. [Indicates]
13 Q. Here. That's right. In the area you're pointing to, in all --
14 throughout that area, between the red dot and the point that you are
15 pointing to, that is, before the first building, what was there during the
16 war -- during the war?
17 A. During the war there were private houses here which were mostly
18 owned by Muslims, and somewhere here was a Muslim mosque, a religious
19 Muslim building.
20 Q. Thank you very much. Actually, between the point that you have
21 just indicated and point number 22, was it possible for a direct shot with
22 a light weapon to intervene; yes or no?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Very briefly, why is it not possible for a direct shot with a
25 small arms fire could hit this distance?
Page 14740
1 A. Because those buildings were in front of the Serb lines that were
2 an obstacle.
3 Q. The same question regarding the second circle on the left. Point
4 the pointer at the circle to the left.
5 A. [Indicates]
6 THE INTERPRETER: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, could you slow down because
7 this is too fast for the interpreters.
8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I do apologise.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
10 MR. IERACE: Mr. Mr. President, I don't think again that it's at
11 all clear from the transcript the area indicated by the witness where
12 there was a mosque and other buildings.
13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the witness
14 pointed to an area slightly to the right of the area inhabited by Muslims
15 that he pointed to a moment ago.
16 Q. Witness, the same question regarding the point to the extreme
17 left --
18 MR. IERACE: I don't think that is sufficient. If you take a
19 different view, Mr. President.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
21 MR. IERACE: But on my reading of the transcript it is not at all
22 clear to anyone who reads the transcript which area the witness was
23 talking to --
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I think the witness was pointing at an area a
25 little bit below and right from the open circle in the middle of the map
Page 14741
1 going into the direction of number 22 up until where considerable
2 construction seems to appear. So that's the open area with more or less a
3 cross in the middle of it, which seems to appear roads.
4 Please proceed. But marking might be more efficient,
5 Mr. Piletta-Zanin. But I do appreciate that you're trying to do your
6 utmost best.
7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much,
8 Mr. President.
9 Q. As we are talking about a mosque, was it ever targeted, hit, or
10 destroyed by your forces; yes or no?
11 A. It was not destroyed or hit. I said earlier on at the meetings
12 held by company commanders with the battalion commander, we were
13 constantly reminded not to target religious facilities, civilian vehicles,
14 if we were to see any, or civilians at all, even people digging a trench.
15 They were treated as an enemy because they were on the front line. We
16 were told to shoot as little as possible.
17 Q. The circle to the extreme left, please, will you point at it.
18 A. [Indicates]
19 Q. Thank you. The same question as a moment ago: From this point,
20 is it possible directly to hit point 22? If not, why?
21 A. No.
22 Q. And why?
23 A. Because from this point one could only see the tops of these first
24 buildings in Dobrinja V.
25 Q. Perfect. Thank you very much for your answer. We'll go on now to
Page 14742
1 Exhibit 1774, which I'd like to be shown to the witness. Number 13.
2 I think we can leave the map on the side, the previous map for a
3 moment, because in a moment --
4 Q. Witness, do you recognise this map?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Thank you. Witness, between the place indicated by the circle in
7 the middle of the map and the point marked "21," is there a direct view
8 between these two points?
9 MR. IERACE: Well, I object, Mr. President. For a start --
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
11 MR. IERACE: The issue is whether there was a direct view on that
12 particular date.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, perhaps it would be --
14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President --
15 JUDGE ORIE: Let's first see whether the witness can answer the
16 question or whether there's any reservation to be made.
17 So the question was, Mr. DP8, whether from the circle in the
18 middle of the photograph up until the dot where we find number 21, whether
19 there was a direct view. And please indicate if this would have been
20 different in time.
21 Yes.
22 MR. IERACE: I appreciate the time pressure, Mr. President.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
24 MR. IERACE: Within the circle, we have -- and I don't think it's
25 in dispute -- the school for the blind.
Page 14743
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
2 MR. IERACE: The question as phrased means nothing. Does he mean
3 the ground in front of the school for the blind? The first floor? The
4 second floor? Which particular building?
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin we all know that it might be of
6 importance whether we talk about first floor, ground floor, et cetera, so
7 could you please try to elicit from the witness such information that
8 would assist us.
9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well.
10 Q. Witness, will you take the rule their the usher is going to hand
11 to you and point the ruler, if you can, to point 21 and draw it to the
12 middle of the circle. Between the middle of the circle and point 21.
13 Further up, point 21. Move the ruler further up, please.
14 Witness, a dot marked "21." 21. Not 13 but 21.
15 Now draw a line, please, with a black pain, a fine black pen.
16 A. [Witness complies]
17 Q. Thank you very much. Witness, the trajectory that you have just
18 drawn passes through a building. This building, was it a student hostel?
19 Did it totally obstruct the view viewing it from the Institute of the
20 Blind regardless of the floor of that building; yes or no?
21 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, that is an eloquent leading
22 question --
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
24 MR. IERACE: -- to invite the witness to draw a line which takes
25 it through a building, according to this map, and then invite the witness
Page 14744
1 to indicate whether it was possible to see the spot. Whatever the witness
2 says now has no weight in view of the way in which my learned colleague
3 has approached that issue.
4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] May I respond, Mr. President?
5 Yes. Yes, I'm at fault.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Would you say that you reformulate the question
7 or --
8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No, no -- I haven't quite
9 understood -- no, I didn't say -- I'm sorry. It's a way of protesting
10 vehemently.
11 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter corrects itself.
12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I was never at fault. I am
13 protesting against this assertion of the Prosecution for the simple and
14 good reason, Mr. President, that we asked about the view, then we were
15 told that we had to ask from which floor. And I'm doing it now. Whether
16 I asked for a line to be drawn before or after, the reality remains the
17 same. The view goes through the building. The line goes through the
18 building.
19 JUDGE ORIE: The line goes through the building. That's for sure.
20 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, please proceed. We'll --
21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
22 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... indicated that
23 we could not take into consideration the answer. We'll consider that at a
24 later stage.
25 Please proceed.
Page 14745
1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
2 Q. Witness, my question is the following: According to your personal
3 experience and at any point in time in the relevant period, that is,
4 during the war, were you able to have any view at all from this red circle
5 to point 13. Will you tell us, please, why?
6 A. Throughout the war, that is from the period 1992 until the end of
7 1994, that is, throughout the war, this whole street was protected with
8 screens, first of all, then a building, a part of the intersection was
9 protected by a -- one of the buildings of the student hostels and by a
10 coffee bar, not the bakery - a coffee bar - and along the length of the
11 Aleja Branka Bujica Street, that is, on both the Muslim and the Serb side,
12 there were several rows of screens from wooden boards, containers that we
13 used to obstruct the view.
14 Q. Thank you. Witness, as regards these protective barricades, would
15 you tell us whether the Aleja that you have referred to is on the map; yes
16 or no?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Are you telling us that the map is not correct?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Thank you. If you can, bearing in mind what you've just shown us,
21 could you try and place -- indicate the place where the barricades were on
22 the Aleja, the barricades that you just referred to, with a black pen.
23 A. [Marks]
24 Q. Witness, you have just indicated three barricades or positions of
25 barricades. Would you put the letter "B" next to each of them, please.
Page 14746
1 A. [Marks]
2 Q. Witness, in view of the position of those barricades, did you have
3 the possibility of having a view during the war at any time, a direct view
4 of the point under the arrow number 13? And if no, why?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Why?
7 A. Because they were protected by these barricades along the length
8 of the Aleja and the Aleja went downhill. It wasn't level. From the
9 position number 13 there was a downward slope towards the Centre of the
10 Blind. So it was at a lower level.
11 Q. Regarding the quality of obstruction of these barricades, are you
12 emphatic in saying that a view was not possible; yes or no?
13 A. I didn't have a view.
14 Q. Witness --
15 JUDGE ORIE: Excuse me, Mr. Piletta-Zanin. It becomes quite clear
16 that we will not finish with this witness today, so we have to discuss how
17 to proceed. Would you please -- if you would move to your next subject
18 and stop so that we can discuss how we can --
19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes. I'm just going to finish
20 with this question, and I hope we will be able to solve the problem of the
21 witness.
22 Q. My last question on this point: If you didn't have a view - and
23 listen to my question carefully - if you did not have a direct view of
24 what was beyond the protection barriers, can you imagine and achieve a
25 shot, you yourself, or soldiers in general in that way?
Page 14747
1 A. No.
2 Q. Thank you very much?
3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] In the presence of the
4 witness, Mr. President?
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, we can discuss it in the presence of the
6 witness. How much time would the Defence still need for examination?
7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] This rhythm and if there are
8 no other objections -- I only have two more maps to show to the witness,
9 and that will round up my questions about destruction. So it will be very
10 quick.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And I take it, Mr. Ierace, that you'll
12 certainly need more than a couple of minutes for cross-examination of this
13 witness.
14 MR. IERACE: That's true, Mr. President.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So then we are facing a problem.
16 Mr. DP8, we were informed that you are scheduled to travel back
17 tomorrow. Would you be available to wait for another -- to continue -- to
18 testify tomorrow morning and only travel back then either later tomorrow
19 or the day after tomorrow?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot continue my testimony
21 because my sister got killed a year ago and I delayed the observation of
22 that anniversary last Saturday and I've invited people to come and I have
23 to be there. It is the anniversary of her death.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We fully do understand that you are talking
25 about a tragic event. When exactly would you have to be back? When do
Page 14748
1 you have to be there?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have to be there Saturday morning.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Saturday morning.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] By midday.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Today is Thursday. Would there be a possibility --
6 if you would travel back later tomorrow - let's say on from 11.00 or
7 12.00 - and if you would arrive -- I'm not saying that this is possible,
8 but I'm just trying to find out what your possibilities would be. Would
9 you then arrive in time?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have to be in Belgrade tomorrow to
11 be able to reach home the day after.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But if you arrive in Belgrade tomorrow later on
13 in the day, would that be still sufficient?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Would you be willing to continue to testify tomorrow
16 morning if an arrangement would have been made that you could travel to
17 Belgrade later tomorrow? I'm not saying that this is possible but just
18 trying to find out what could be done.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That would mean -- the important
20 thing is for me to get to Belgrade. I can find a bus or something. I
21 have to reach Belgrade by Friday.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I do understand. The problem is that the
23 alternative would be that you would return and then have to come back
24 perhaps at a later stage to be cross-examined by the Prosecution. Of
25 course that would be not very convenient for you; neither would it be very
Page 14749
1 attractive for the Tribunal because then we have travel expenses, et
2 cetera. So it would be good for everyone if such an arrangement could be
3 made. But I don't know whether it's possible. Let me just --
4 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I have been
7 informed by the General there's only one connection by plane and that is
8 the problem. Instead of going through I don't know which town, there's
9 only one connection with Belgrade in the morning.
10 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... about -- as you
11 know sometimes taking a different route solves a problem of this kind.
12 And I will -- let me say the following: If we are not able to conclude
13 your testimony today. I'll ask the Registry to be in contact with the
14 Victims and Witnesses Unit and see whether a solution can be found such
15 that you would travel later tomorrow. If it was not on a direct flight,
16 perhaps by either Frankfurt or whatever to see that you go back to
17 Belgrade later tomorrow. If not, then of course the original schedule
18 will be followed. But Madam Registrar has tried to get some information.
19 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
20 JUDGE ORIE: All the information that comes to me now indicates
21 that there would be no other possibility. But nevertheless, we'll check
22 whether this is the final solution. If there would be another
23 possibility - and we also have to take into consideration visa, et
24 cetera - if there would be a possibility to fly back tomorrow later in the
25 day, we will invite you to reappear tomorrow morning at 9.00 in this
Page 14750
1 courtroom. If not, then the original schedule will be followed. But then
2 at a later stage -- unfortunately, I have to tell you that you have to
3 come back and to answer to the last questions of the Defence and also to
4 answer questions of the Prosecution and perhaps questions of the Bench as
5 well.
6 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, would --
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
8 MR. IERACE: Would it be appropriate in the event that it is not
9 possible for this witness to be present for a reasonable time tomorrow
10 morning to allow completion of examination-in-chief. Cross-examination,
11 re-examination, et cetera --
12 JUDGE ORIE: Later today --
13 MR. IERACE: That -- well, either later today or we could at least
14 ask the witness when would be convenient or most convenient over the next
15 few months.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Yes. We have to try to find out whether
17 there's any alternative from having to ask you to return at a later date.
18 But if we would have to ask you to come back to The Hague again, when
19 would be a time that would be suitable for you?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The alternative is for you to ask me
21 your questions now, since I'm here. But if you want me to come again, I
22 need to have some 10 days' advance notice because of my work. I've been
23 absent for 25 days already from my job.
24 JUDGE ORIE: I was unaware that you stayed a very, very long time,
25 an unusual long time here in The Hague.
Page 14751
1 I will ask the Registry to keep in close contact with the Victims
2 and Witnesses Unit. I would like to ask the parties to remain -- stand
3 by, if we could finish later this day. I don't know whether there is a
4 courtroom available or not.
5 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
6 JUDGE ORIE: In order to prevent what happened last time,
7 therefore I am addressing the parties that they be in close contact and
8 the Registry would have to know exactly where they are during the rest of
9 the day, even when -- whether faxing or doing other things.
10 Then we'll adjourn, but it's, therefore, uncertain as to -- for --
11 as to what moment. It might not be until 9.00 this morning.
12 General Galic, I'm very well aware that this might cause you some
13 inconvenience as well, but we have to try to take into consideration also
14 the interest of the witness who has spent here already a long time. So I
15 really apologise for it, if you'd have to return. But one thing is for
16 certain: I'll make sure that we'll not all be in this courtroom at, let's
17 say, 4.00 or 4.30 and then have to leave again without having continued
18 the testimony of this witness.
19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, in the 30
20 seconds that I have, I will be at the disposal to everyone whenever
21 necessary. I will give my telephone numbers, as customary.
22 Regards the booth from the Serbian to English, page 70, line 12,
23 JNA was not mentioned. And generally speaking, a convent was mentioned.
24 We should verify whether it is the same thing as the theological faculty.
25 JUDGE ORIE: I think that's what the witness testified several
Page 14752
1 times. It's the same for him.
2 But we'll now adjourn -- perhaps we'll see each other later today.
3 If not, then we have to see each other at a later time. We'll adjourn.
4 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.46 p.m.
5
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15
16
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18
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Page 14753
1 --- On resuming at 4.01 p.m.
2 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber would like to express its appreciation
3 for all those who made themselves available to continue this afternoon.
4 And I think we are now at the point where we could continue the
5 examination-in-chief of Witness DP8. I take it that the protective
6 measures are effective at this moment.
7 Madam Usher, could you please escort the witness into the
8 courtroom.
9 [The witness entered court]
10 [Defence counsel and accused confer]
11 JUDGE ORIE: Witness DP8, thank you very much for coming back.
12 Everyone tries to do his best to enable you to [redacted]
13 [redacted].
14 Ms. Pilipovic, I am informed that you need -- that
15 Mr. Piletta-Zanin would need another 15 minutes approximately and that the
16 Prosecution would need a little bit over an hour. Is that correct?
17 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, clearly I can't give an indication at
18 this stage, but it would be at least an hour.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. At least an hour.
20 Let's proceed, and may I ask all the parties to work as efficient
21 as we started this morning.
22 Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, thank you very
24 much.
25 General Galic has told me that he would also associate himself to
Page 14754
1 the gratitude expressed by you and he has asked me to say something at the
2 end of this hearing.
3 Q. Witness, could you be shown very quickly the last exhibit that was
4 on the screen.
5 Madam Usher, will you please put the last exhibit on the ELMO,
6 please.
7 THE REGISTRAR: P1774.
8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] There we are.
9 Q. Witness, I simply wanted you -- and it's not very visible. Could
10 you write this "B" more clearly because we can't see it very well. Could
11 you make the letter "B" more clearly on the map.
12 THE INTERPRETER: Could counsel speak into the microphone, please.
13 JUDGE ORIE: [Interpretation] Mr. Piletta-Zanin, would you be kind
14 enough to use the microphone.
15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes. I'm so sorry. I
16 apologise.
17 Q. Would you please write out the letter "B" more clearly.
18 A. [Witness complies]
19 Q. Witness, that's fine. Thank you. Will you tell me what was the
20 average height of these barricades that we were referring to.
21 A. They were about 3 metres high.
22 Q. Thank you very much.
23 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
24 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Usher, could you please assist
25 Mr. Piletta-Zanin in giving the --
Page 14755
1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: Yes, please.
2 [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Mr. President.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Could Madam Usher please put
5 the other map -- and as far as this one is concerned, I think it's clear
6 enough. Could you please put the other map, the one we had previously on
7 the ELMO.
8 JUDGE ORIE: It's 1773.
9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] That's right.
10 Q. Witness, do you recognise this map? Would you please indicate on
11 the map with a black pen the place where the small family homes end,
12 mostly owned by Muslims, that you pointed to earlier on as being to the
13 right of the circle in the middle. Could you please indicate the east end
14 of that group of family homes with a pointer, where they end, in other
15 words. With a pointer, please.
16 A. [Indicates]
17 Q. We are talking of that particular area, yes. Will you show us up
18 to where towards the east -- that is, move the pointer to the right. To
19 the right, that's right. Up to where does this area of small houses go in
20 relation to the relatively higher buildings on the right.
21 A. [Indicates]
22 Q. Fine. And to the south, please.
23 A. This area here is full of small houses. This was the separation
24 line. These were houses mostly with Serb inhabitants and here Muslim
25 inhabitants. And there was a school that I think was called Simone
Page 14756
1 Bolivar. I can't remember exactly.
2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] For the record, the witness
3 has circled his pointer around the small black dot which is situated in a
4 plot which appears to be totally empty of any graphic presentations.
5 Q. Thank you very much. Could you please take the ruler and could
6 you draw a line roughly from the centre of the circle that we have in the
7 centre of the map right up to point 22, trying to put the ruler exactly
8 against point 22. Draw a line, please, if you can.
9 A. [Witness complies]
10 Q. Thank you. Thank you. I would like you to tell us the height of
11 the buildings appearing on the axis of the line that you have drawn, the
12 one that is closest to point 22, in the direction of the line.
13 A. The height of all these buildings here is about six to eight
14 storeys. That is what I said.
15 Q. Witness, what is the distance -- and the scale is 12:5 -- what is
16 the distance between what is sometimes called a convent and sometimes a
17 faculty of theology and point 22? Can you -- I think that the scale is
18 12:5.
19 A. From this circle?
20 Q. No. From the convent. From the theology faculty.
21 A. It's more than 2 kilometres, 100 per cent sure of that.
22 Q. Thank you.
23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] The map can be withdrawn.
24 We'd like to give him another map now with the number --
25 THE REGISTRAR: D1775.
Page 14757
1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] And that is a map relating to
2 incident 25. I should like to indicate this for the benefit of the
3 Prosecution. That map can be placed on the ELMO, please.
4 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Do you have another copy, please?
5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]
6 Q. Witness, you have to your right a map relating to incident 25.
7 I'm proceeding on the basis of the principle that you recognise the map.
8 Could you tell us with great precision, point 25 that you can identify on
9 this map, what is the distance, please, between that spot and the closest
10 trenches or military facility -- mobile military facility, that is, even
11 the closest spot where there were soldiers? Could you tell us that.
12 MR. IERACE: I object, Mr. President.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace.
14 MR. IERACE: The question requires the witness to state the
15 distance between the spot and the closest trenches or military facility
16 where there were soldiers with no reference to date and no factual basis
17 being established as to how the witness could answer that question for any
18 particular time as to where the nearest soldiers were. I take it,
19 further, that he refers to ABiH soldiers. The question isn't clear as to
20 that.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Could you formulate the question in such a way that
22 there could be no confusion.
23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I'll be glad
24 to. But it is quite clearly a reference to the enemy positions.
25 Q. Witness, in relation to point 25, specifically, what was the
Page 14758
1 closest building, military building or occupied by soldiers, of the
2 opposing army?
3 MR. IERACE: I object, Mr. President.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
5 MR. IERACE: Again there is no reference to date. The question
6 seems to be going to a particular incident, which as we know occurred on a
7 particular date. Again, no foundation. Again, no reference to date.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Microphone not activated]
10 THE INTERPRETER: The microphone is not switched on.
11 JUDGE ORIE: [No interpretation]
12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I'm sorry. Mr. President, we
13 don't believe that these buildings moved throughout the war, but I will
14 specify the period I'm referring to. But I think that all these buildings
15 exist and many witnesses have told us that the lines didn't move
16 throughout the war.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But --
18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I will specify the date.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please do so.
20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well.
21 Q. Witness, could you tell us, please, for the year 1994, and to be
22 more specific, the month or the summer of 1994, what was the military
23 facility or the place occupied by soldiers that was closest to this spot?
24 That is to say, what is the distance?
25 A. From point 25 and the first building in Vojnicko Polje where the
Page 14759
1 Muslim trenches were was 15 metres on the outside, the width of one road,
2 and that applied throughout the war, that is, from the period of 1992
3 until 1994.
4 Q. Thank you. For things to be quite clear and for us to save time,
5 this situation on your part of the line, did it change throughout the
6 period that you were familiar with, that is, from 1992 to 1994?
7 A. No, it didn't.
8 Q. Thank you very much. Were there any other buildings of a military
9 nature close to point 25 at any period of time, including around the end
10 of June 1994?
11 A. The entire Vojnicko Polje was considered by us to be a military
12 stronghold of the Muslim forces. This was the front line for us, and all
13 the buildings behind that were areas from which they could fire from, so
14 the whole of Vojnicko Polje as a district was by us considered to be a
15 military base of the Muslims.
16 Q. Thank you. At the time that I referred to, what was the
17 frequency, the strength of fire? I'm talking about the period of June --
18 the summer of 1994.
19 A. There was shooting almost daily. Sometimes it was more; sometimes
20 less intense. But there was shooting.
21 Q. Thank you very much. When you say "shooting," you mean combat.
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Thank you. Will you please point at number 26 on the map.
24 A. [Indicates]
25 Q. Thank you very much. Witness, the same question regarding the
Page 14760
1 same period of time: What is the distance separating this point, 26, from
2 the closest element of a military nature, whether it be a civilian
3 building used for military purposes or otherwise?
4 A. About 20 or 30 metres. I can't be more precise.
5 Q. Thank you very much. Witness, this building appearing next to
6 "26," was it, as far as you know, partially used by the soldiers of the
7 other army?
8 MR. IERACE: I object to leading questions, Mr. President.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Would you please rephrase the question.
10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I'll be glad to do so.
11 Q. What can you tell us, witness, about who occupied this building
12 during the war, the building under "26"?
13 MR. IERACE: I object. There is no foundation laid yet for the
14 witness to be able to give an opinion as to that. In particular, it
15 hasn't been suggested that the witness lived or visited that building.
16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, may I respond?
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, you may.
18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, thank you.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Shall we -- let's just -- should we do this when the
20 witness is listening?
21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you for reminding me of
22 this. We could ask the witness to take off his headphones. We can first
23 ask him whether he speaks English.
24 MR. IERACE: Mr. President.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
Page 14761
1 MR. IERACE: Might I suggest the appropriate course always is for
2 the witness to leave the courtroom. When a witness says that he or she
3 doesn't speak English, that doesn't allow for the possibility of some
4 knowledge of English.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I do agree with you.
6 Of course, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, usually you're speaking French.
7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes. We can just speak
8 French.
9 MR. IERACE: I've noticed.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, yes.
11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: Yes.
12 JUDGE ORIE: You are aware of that, yes.
13 Of course we can ask the witness to leave the courtroom. We can
14 spend a lot of time on the objection if you say there's a more efficient
15 way of solving it because I'm quite willing to rephrase the question or to
16 put an additional question that, of course, would be preferable.
17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I could say that in German,
18 but that wouldn't simplify things.
19 Let me go to another question. I could move on to another
20 question.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could you please put the headphones up again.
22 Yes, please proceed.
23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]
24 Q. Witness, during the war -- can you hear me?
25 A. Yes.
Page 14762
1 Q. Thank you very much. Witness, during the war, could you see
2 whether shots were coming for this or that particular building; yes or no?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Thank you. Witness, please place your pointer on the line of
5 buildings in front of 26, just in front of 26. Those buildings, that's
6 right. Those buildings.
7 A. [Indicates]
8 Q. Could you from those buildings see incoming fire, fire opened at
9 you?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Could you see from any of your other positions other buildings
12 from which --
13 MR. IERACE: I object.
14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]
15 Q. -- fire was coming?
16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Allow me to finish my
17 sentence.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The witness should not answer the question but
19 first I'll give you an opportunity to complete your question,
20 Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, indeed. With the
22 headphones on of the witness?
23 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps you should ask him to take them off as you're
24 speaking French, I take it that --
25 Could you take off your headphones for one second.
Page 14763
1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. The
2 question was whether the witness was able to see fire that was opened from
3 a second line of buildings, that is, those along point 26. If the witness
4 was able to see that, one could deduce that those buildings were used for
5 military purposes, and that would bring us closer to a point of acquittal,
6 and I think that is the right of the Defence to put such a question
7 without any objection by the Prosecution. If he saw whether fire was
8 coming from in the second row of buildings, he will tell us. Thank you.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Ierace.
10 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, the relevance of point 26 is that is
11 where, according to the evidence of a Prosecution witness, a boy aged
12 approximately 13 was shot in the middle of the street. That's the first
13 point.
14 Specifically, the witness is not being asked as to a particular
15 day or even a particular period of time when he observed fire. Secondly,
16 the manner which my learned colleague has approached this is to require
17 the witness to put the end of his pointer generally in a group of what we
18 know to be half a dozen high-rise buildings without specifying which ones,
19 singularly, and inviting him to indicate whether he saw fire coming from
20 those buildings. So again, there is not a proper foundation laid. When
21 did the witness see fire coming from which particular buildings?
22 And even that, of course, overlooks the fact that the incident
23 involved, a boy being shot in the middle of the road, not in a building.
24 Thank you.
25 [Trial Chamber confers]
Page 14764
1 JUDGE ORIE: The objection is denied. But Mr. Piletta-Zanin,
2 you're invited to be a bit more specific. If you're talking about
3 buildings then perhaps at times refer to a specific building rather than a
4 group of buildings.
5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
6 Q. Witness, will you please put your headphones on again.
7 A. [Witness complies]
8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I will need a pointer. I will
9 have to use a pointer.
10 Q. Witness, please pick up your pointer and will you please indicate
11 the basis of the buildings situating immediately to the east of point
12 number 26. Put your pointer clearly at the bottom of that building.
13 A. [Indicates]
14 Q. No, the other one. More to the right. More to the right. Up.
15 Further up. On point 26, please.
16 A. [Indicates]
17 Q. That's it. This row of buildings.
18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] And the witness is showing the
19 row of buildings which is exactly next to point 26.
20 Q. Witness, did you have occasion to see during the war, first of
21 all, fire being opened or any activity of a belligerent nature, a very
22 close nature coming from that building?
23 A. This building cannot be seen from Nedzarici, this building here.
24 You can only see these first two buildings and the lateral ones. This one
25 cannot be seen from Nedzarici because these two are protecting them.
Page 14765
1 Q. Thank you. We can now move on to the next map that we're going to
2 show to this witness. It has to do with incident number 23. And the
3 number it bears is 1776.
4 Witness, you have there a map. Unfortunately the central part is
5 not well reproduced, but do you recognise it nevertheless?
6 A. I do.
7 Q. Thank you very much. Witness, I'd like you to point for us on
8 this map at what was in the area marked by the large triangle, which
9 corresponds to the projectile trajectory, and it is in the centre, the
10 middle of this map, for instance, whether the words "Nedzarici," what was
11 there? Were there any obstacles there, anything precluding the view?
12 A. This was the locality of Nedzarici, that is, the houses belonging
13 to Serbs in this whole square.
14 Q. Right.
15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] The witness is showing at the
16 surface covered by the triangle and he's pointing at it with his pointer.
17 Q. Thank you. Can you tell us whether this area was green?
18 A. Well, there were many orchards, fruit orchards here. How shall I
19 put it? Next to the monastery there were also some pine trees. Some of
20 them were 10 to 15 metres tall.
21 Q. Were there trees which were closer to the monastery during the
22 war?
23 A. Yes, yes, yes. This was ornamental trees around the gate, around
24 the fence of the -- all around the faculty of theology there were trees.
25 Q. Do you know if these trees were felled at some point, for
Page 14766
1 instance, because people needed firewood?
2 A. No.
3 Q. When you say "no," does it mean that you don't know?
4 A. No, they were not felled.
5 Q. Thank you. Witness, I'd like you now to focus on the destruction
6 of Nedzarici. What can you tell the Chamber about the scale of
7 destruction of the houses there and especially during the period under
8 consideration?
9 A. During the war, that is, in 1992 to 1994, I do not think that a
10 single house in Nedzarici or a single structure in Nedzarici, a single
11 built structure went unscathed, that is, was not damaged by projectiles.
12 The building of the theological faculty was also targeted on a number of
13 occasions by the Muslim army and it was shelled at some point, and that is
14 how it was until the end of the war.
15 Q. Witness, do you also know about the destruction that took place in
16 other neighbourhoods during the war?
17 A. I didn't understand the question.
18 Q. We are now talking of Nedzarici --
19 MR. IERACE: I object to the question. It's an invitation to
20 speculate in its present form.
21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well, Mr. President.
22 Fine. Fine.
23 Q. Can you tell us, witness, to your knowledge, that is, during the
24 war, when did the major part of material destruction happen? I'm talking
25 about buildings.
Page 14767
1 A. Well, the destruction for the most part occurred at the time when
2 the Muslim formations attacked Nedzarici, and there were many of them. I
3 mean, there were a number of attacks. They attacked Nedzarici frequently.
4 They fired from all the weapons available to them at Nedzarici so that
5 many buildings were damaged, except that in the centre of Nedzarici there
6 were no military facilities, no military strongholds. There were only
7 civilian houses, that is, detached houses where Nedzarici inhabitants
8 lived, including my mother.
9 Q. Thank you. I'll perhaps come back to this question later on.
10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] But I believe that I heard,
11 Mr. President, a word in the witness's language which I do not see in the
12 transcript but I have to hear it once again. How did that happen? May I
13 continue?
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You're asking the witness to repeat his answer
15 or ...? Since you're appointing -- you're saying that the translation is
16 not complete. Is that what I understand?
17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I'm saying that I believe I
18 heard a word which does not figure here.
19 JUDGE ORIE: You either have to ask the witness to repeat his
20 answer or continue; one of the two.
21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] All right. I will try to do
22 that.
23 Q. Witness, when you gave your answer and when I asked you a
24 question, precisely when, could you please repeat because I think -- which
25 words in Serb did you use with regard to the attacks and the time of these
Page 14768
1 attacks?
2 A. I know that it was a daily occurrence between 1992 and 1994.
3 These attacks happened daily. I also know that on the 8th of December,
4 1992 there was an attack. And these houses I told you were destroyed.
5 But those were exclusively civilian, that is, civilians were living in
6 them, and there wasn't a single military facility there, because my mother
7 lived in our house.
8 Q. I will stop you, witness. I will stop you now.
9 Could you please remove your headphones.
10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the word that I
11 believe I heard him say was "in the beginning." That was in the
12 beginning. I believe I heard that word, and it doesn't appear here. No,
13 no. We could ask the witness -- perhaps I could ask him a leading
14 question. I don't know. But he said "before General Galic."
15 JUDGE ORIE: Let me just see -- I've just lost my transcript on my
16 LiveNote on my --
17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I suggest that you ask the
20 witness whether he used the word "at the outset," "in the beginning." And
21 then we shall know whether that was correct or not.
22 JUDGE ORIE: It's a bit difficult to -- first of all, I have -- my
23 LiveNote is -- yes, it's functioning again. It's functioning again. No.
24 No. I really made a mess out of it.
25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] It is line --
Page 14769
1 JUDGE ORIE: One moment
2 [Trial Chamber confers]
3 JUDGE ORIE: Part of your answer was destructions -- what's --
4 yes, yes. Of course. Could you please put on your headphones.
5 You said something about the damage done during the attacks on
6 Nedzarici. Could you specify that more in detail in time when these
7 attacks on Nedzarici took place, because it might not be -- the
8 translation of your answer might not have been complete. Did you say
9 anything specific about the time of the attacks?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said specifically that between
11 1992 to 1994 they happened -- and one date I remember is the 8th of
12 December, because I was likely injured by a fragment of a shell which hit
13 Nedzarici.
14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well. I will ask for the
15 tape to check it. I will ask for the tape to check that.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]
18 Q. Witness, those initial attacks by Muslims that you told us about -
19 and you are talking about 1992 - when in 1992 do you remember that? When
20 in 1992?
21 A. Throughout 1992 there were frequent attacks of the Muslim army on
22 Nedzarici. There was hardly a day that went by when one could walk around
23 Nedzarici normally, and that is what we did. We didn't move around
24 normally. We went out when the darkness fell and we tried to put up
25 screens, curtains, containers, and whatever so as to be less visible.
Page 14770
1 Q. Thank you. Witness, you told us a moment ago about your mother.
2 What can you tell this Chamber, please, about her?
3 [redacted]
4 [redacted]
5 [redacted]
6 [redacted]
7 [redacted]
8 [redacted]
9 [redacted]
10 [redacted]
11 [redacted]
12 [redacted]
13 [redacted]
14 [redacted], and on one
15 occasion - I don't know - a shell fell and she was wounded.
16 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] What are we --
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. There was -- the witness pointed at something
19 up on the ELMO to certain places which will be redacted now.
20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
21 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, for the second time today, I must
22 apologise. Earlier I indicated that the relevance of point 26 was, as I
23 understood the questioning of my colleague, the reference to a 13-year-old
24 boy being hit in the middle of the street.
25 JUDGE ORIE: I take it you were referring to someone watching
Page 14771
1 television in the flat.
2 MR. IERACE: Yes. Yes. And I apologise.
3 JUDGE ORIE: I think we will notice that. Yes
4 Please proceed.
5 May I ask -- Mr. Witness, Mr. DP8, may I ask you something? Do
6 you hear me, Mr. DP8? Mr. DP8, can you hear me?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can.
8 JUDGE ORIE: You are given -- you are giving rather lengthy
9 answers, and since you indicated that you'd like to return to your home
10 country by tomorrow, please listen very carefully to the questions and
11 answer to that question. If, for example, someone could ask what month
12 was it - say, January or February or whatever month it was - then don't
13 tell us about the whole spring or the whole summer, because otherwise it
14 might take far too much time.
15 And for you, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, if you say -- "tell us about your
16 mother," that's not a question that elicits short answers from the
17 witness.
18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, I know. I'm sorry.
19 Q. Last question, witness: Do you know civilians who perhaps
20 suffered in Nedzarici during the war, that is, people who were killed, who
21 might have been killed? And if you do, how many of them would that be?
22 Do you know the number?
23 A. I know -- I can say a hundred per cent there were civilian
24 fatalities in Nedzarici. I know about a dozen instances, and I can give
25 you -- I mean, their name, that is, people who were not with the army, who
Page 14772
1 didn't belong to any military formation, who like my mother lived in
2 Nedzarici and who were wounded or killed in the war.
3 Q. And they died of what, simply?
4 JUDGE ORIE: May I stop you here.
5 You were just asked whether you could give a number. That was the
6 question. So say 10 or 20 or 30. And then if there's any further
7 information needed, I'm certain that Mr. Piletta-Zanin will ask for it.
8 Please proceed.
9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]
10 Q. So an estimate, if you can. If you cannot, just say that you
11 cannot.
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And those individuals that you knew, what did they die of
14 generally?
15 A. Well, they were hit by bullets, small-calibre bullets, or then
16 again by shells which fell in their vicinity, next to their houses or
17 something.
18 Q. Thank you very much.
19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No further questions,
20 Mr. President.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. DP8, you'll now be examined by counsel for the
22 Prosecution.
23 Mr. Ierace, please proceed.
24 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President. Might I start off in
25 closed session just for a few minutes.
Page 14773
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We'll turn in to private session.
2 MR. IERACE: Private session.
3 [Private session]
4 [redacted]
5 [redacted]
6 [redacted]
7 [redacted]
8 [redacted]
9 [redacted]
10 [redacted]
11 [redacted]
12 [redacted]
13 [redacted]
14 [redacted]
15 [redacted]
16 [redacted]
17 [redacted]
18 [redacted]
19 [redacted]
20 [redacted]
21 [redacted]
22 [redacted]
23 [redacted]
24 [redacted]
25 [redacted]
Page 14774
1 [redacted]
2 [redacted]
3 [redacted]
4 [Open session]
5 JUDGE ORIE: Please continue.
6 [redacted]
7 [redacted]
8 [redacted]
9 [redacted]
10 [redacted]
11 [redacted]
12 [redacted]
13 [redacted]
14 [redacted]
15 [redacted]
16 [redacted]
17 [redacted]
18 [redacted]
19 [redacted]
20 [redacted]
21 [redacted]
22 [redacted]
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24 [redacted]
25 [Private session]
Page 14775
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
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11
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13 Pages 14775-14778 – redacted – private session
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Page 14779
1 [redacted]
2 [redacted]
3 [redacted]
4 [redacted]
5 [redacted]
6 [redacted]
7 [redacted]
8 [redacted]
9 [redacted]
10 [redacted]
11 [redacted]
12 [redacted]
13 [redacted]
14 [redacted]
15 [redacted]
16 [redacted]
17 [redacted]
18 [Open session]
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed.
20 MR. IERACE: Yes.
21 Q. I'll repeat the question: When you started in the armoured
22 company in September 1992, what were your duties?
23 A. My duties were to be a soldier, to carry out military assignments,
24 and those assignments were to deliver food, breakfast, lunch, dinner to
25 the front line, to pull out the dead and the wounded from the front line
Page 14780
1 of the Army of Republika Srpska.
2 Q. You've told us that APCs were used for that purpose. Did the APCs
3 have weapons, perhaps guns, mounted somewhere on their top?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Apart from the duties of delivering food and pulling out the dead
6 and wounded, what else did the armoured company do?
7 A. In Nedzarici there wasn't a great deal of action from the armoured
8 vehicle, because it would be crazy to get onto the APC and fire because it
9 was visible from all the surrounding buildings. The APC could easily be
10 seen and easily hit. So usually it was just the driver who went to carry
11 food. And if we went to fetch a wounded person, one of the nurses would
12 come, and they were accommodated at the theology faculty and she would go
13 to extend first aid to the wounded.
14 Q. So you're saying that they were the only functions of your
15 company; is that correct? Food delivery and retrieving the dead and
16 wounded; that's all you did in that company. Is that the case?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Never a shot was fired in anger from the guns on the three APCs?
19 A. I didn't understand quite.
20 Q. Are you telling us that the three guns on the APCs were never
21 used?
22 A. I didn't say that we had guns on those armoured vehicles. There
23 weren't any guns.
24 JUDGE ORIE: May I --
25 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President.
Page 14781
1 JUDGE ORIE: I'm afraid I cannot assist you since my lines are not
2 the same. It is page 132 -- 131 -- we have different. Yes, 131 goes to
3 132, yes.
4 MR. IERACE:
5 Q. Do you remember that a few minutes ago I asked you this question:
6 "Did the APCs have weapons, perhaps guns, mounted somewhere on their
7 top?" And you replied "Yes." Do you remember that I asked you that
8 question and you gave me that answer?
9 A. I meant a machine-gun or a small 20-millimetre, which is a small
10 anti-aircraft gun.
11 Q. All right.
12 A. It's not really a proper big gun, a big calibre gun.
13 Q. No, no. But were those weapons ever used, that is, the
14 machine-guns or 20-millimetres that were mounted on the three APCs?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Were they used against targets on the other side of the
17 confrontation lines?
18 A. They were used when Muslim units would attack with great force
19 Nedzarici and when in some places they tried to break through the lines,
20 and then they would act under force and necessity.
21 Q. Indeed because they were armoured, weren't they? They were
22 protected from, at least, small arms fire.
23 A. They were not protected from guns which the Muslim army had.
24 Q. They were protected from small armed forces fire, weren't they?
25 A. Yes.
Page 14782
1 Q. Now, did your duties change at any stage from those you just told
2 us up until August of 1994?
3 A. No.
4 Q. You tell us that sometime in mid-1993 your position was changed
5 from the institute of theology to the Energoinvest building; is that
6 correct?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Where was that building, the Energoinvest building?
9 A. The Energoinvest building was at the beginning of the street, at
10 the end of Kasindol Street which leads to Ilidza. If you have a map, I
11 can show it to you.
12 Q. You mean near your battalion headquarters.
13 A. Yes.
14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the same word
15 was forgotten. I heard from the witness -- I can't say it, but I know
16 that same word was not translated. There's a sign, a cryptogram. It
17 wasn't translated. I will ask for the tape.
18 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... start with the
19 Energoinvest building was ...?
20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, yes.
21 JUDGE ORIE: All right. I will try to clarify it.
22 Witness you were asked a question where was that building, the
23 Energoinvest building, and then you started your answer by saying the
24 Energoinvest building was at the -- and then could you please repeat what
25 you then said. I think you gave the street ask then said that that street
Page 14783
1 leads to -- could you please repeat it.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The Energoinvest building is at
3 Ilidza, at the end of Kasindol Street, where the street bordered on
4 Ilidza, the Kasindol Street.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That's what I heard in the translation.
6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, that is what
7 makes it difficult. I am saying that the precise word that was used and
8 that I heard from the mouth of the witness was not repeated. I'll ask for
9 the tape because it's the same word as a moment ago.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If you can demonstrate later on, once you've
11 heard the tape that a word is missing, then we'll take care that the
12 translation will be redacted in this respect.
13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] It will be done.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Ierace.
15 Q. Can you explain to us what happened to the APCs once you moved to
16 the Energoinvest building. Did they remain there, or were you allowed to
17 take them out?
18 A. Mostly all the vehicles while under UNPROFOR control were in a
19 hangar belonging to the Energoinvest company, and an armoured vehicle was
20 left to us which we made out of a small truck and which we continued to
21 use for food delivery.
22 Q. Does that mean that -- does that mean that from mid-1993 your
23 duties from then on until at least August 1994 were confined to delivering
24 food? That's all you did; is that correct?
25 A. Mostly, yes.
Page 14784
1 Q. When you say "mostly," what else did you do?
2 A. As I said, I pulled out the dead and wounded soldiers of Republika
3 Srpska.
4 Q. All right. Now, did you continue to do those duties until the end
5 of the war at the end of 1995?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Do you -- I withdraw that.
8 You told us that there were civilians living in Nedzarici during
9 the war, including your mother. Approximately how many civilians were
10 there living in Nedzarici, say, at the end of 1992? Are we talking about
11 hundreds of civilians or thousands of civilians?
12 A. Hundreds of civilians.
13 Q. More than 500?
14 A. No.
15 Q. More than 100?
16 A. Around 100 to 200 civilians lived in Nedzarici during war. It was
17 not a large settlement. It's a settlement with about 1.000 houses.
18 Q. Would it be fair to say that no part of Nedzarici was further
19 than, say, a kilometre from the front line?
20 A. Yes, one could say that.
21 Q. How far did your mother live from the front line?
22 A. My mother was 200 metres on the outside from the front line.
23 Q. You told us that your mother's house was damaged. Was the roof
24 damaged?
25 A. Partly the roof was hit, but overnight we managed to repair the
Page 14785
1 tiles to keep out the rain.
2 Q. Would it be fair to say that the roofs of many of the houses in
3 Nedzarici, especially close to the front line, had extensive roof damage
4 during the war?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Why did your mother not leave Nedzarici during the war, given the
7 obvious danger that she was in by remaining there?
8 A. Because she didn't want to leave me. She only has me.
9 Q. Although she preferred to stay there, do you know whether your
10 superiors felt any responsibility to perhaps move them against their will
11 from positions so close to the front line?
12 A. My mother didn't want to leave her house, and I never discussed
13 the issue with her. I was the one who could have told her to go someplace
14 but she wanted to stay. Normally the superiors and especially the
15 battalion commander told the company commanders that all soldiers who have
16 family in Nedzarici and who know civilians who are not safe, who are in an
17 exposed position, that they should try to protect themselves or to move
18 someplace. It was up to the wish of the people living there. These are
19 people who have been living there for 50, 60, 100 years.
20 Q. If I understand what you just said correctly, the battalion
21 commander gave instructions down the line of command to the effect that
22 civilians in a position of danger should either protect themselves or move
23 elsewhere, but some of the people wanted to stay nevertheless; is that
24 correct?
25 A. Yes.
Page 14786
1 Q. The same applied for areas close to the front line on the other
2 side of the front line, didn't it? In other words, there were civilians
3 living close to the front line on the other side.
4 A. As far as I know, no.
5 Q. Why would you assume the position to be any different with people
6 on the other side of the confrontation line?
7 A. Because --
8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, when we were
9 speaking about the front line with the witness, we were asked to be
10 precise regarding duration and time. I should like the same to apply now,
11 that is, are we talking about 1992, 1993, or what, whatever? That is our
12 opinion.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace.
14 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, this is a question to which the time
15 issue clearly does not apply with the same strictures as the -- as when
16 the issue arose with questions asked by the Defence to which I objected.
17 But in the interest of saving time, I'm happy to put a time frame on it.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
19 MR. IERACE:
20 Q. You've told us that there were around 100 or 200 civilians who
21 remained in Nedzarici during war. Now, I take it that applied between
22 September 1992 and August 1994; is that correct?
23 A. At the beginning of the war there were slightly more. So in the
24 period from the beginning of 1992, when war started, that is, April until
25 December 1992, because many civilians were wounded and killed, as I said,
Page 14787
1 and who could no longer be there.
2 Q. You remember that I asked you, I think, for the figure as of the
3 end of 1992. Were there 100 to 200 people there, civilians, at the end of
4 1992, as best as you could estimate?
5 A. There were about 200 civilians in Nedzarici.
6 Q. All right. Now, why did you not think that the same situation
7 applied to the areas immediately on the other side of the front line
8 between September 1992 and August 1994, that there would be civilians who
9 had lived there for long periods of time who didn't want to leave? Why
10 would you not think the same applied there as on your side?
11 A. Because I have relatives who lived at Vojnicko Polje and whose
12 apartment was unlivable, and the Muslim army, the Muslim command, would
13 not let them move out. They were living in an apartment that was exposed
14 to Nedzarici. There were buildings on the front line and they were not
15 allowed to move out. And I omitted to say that in Nedzarici, apart from
16 the civilian population - and I only counted people living in homes -
17 there was an old person's home with at least 100 people living there, and
18 that was also on the front line.
19 Q. You see, what you're telling us is that you were aware of, I take
20 it, some civilians, some Serb civilians, who were living on the other side
21 of the confrontation line close to the front line but against their will;
22 is that correct?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. All right. Well, why would you not assume that apart from them,
25 that particular family, that there would be other civilians living close
Page 14788
1 to the front line, as they were on your side?
2 A. Because they had plenty of places to go to. There were vacant
3 flats in town that they could go to. But in our -- on our side there
4 wasn't that much free space. The whole of Ilidza was full. There were no
5 empty apartments and so on.
6 Q. But that wasn't the reason that your mother didn't leave, was it?
7 She wanted to stay; correct?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Were you ever told by any of your superiors that there were not
10 civilians living on the other side of the front line within a particular
11 depth of the front line? Were you ever told that?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Well, were you ever told by your superiors that there may be
14 civilians living and moving around within, say, a couple of hundred metres
15 of the front line on the other side? Were you ever told that?
16 A. We were told that there might be civilians in that settlement
17 coming to their apartments, and I said that the company commander would
18 non-stop repeat that fire should not be opened without necessity if one
19 noticed a civilian, and this was the front line for all of us, for
20 combatants on both sides. It was a zone of high risk. There was just
21 shooting, so a civilian had no -- nothing to do there. I never sent my
22 mother to the front line, nor did she go there.
23 Q. I take it there were times that you fired weapons onto the ABiH
24 side between September 1992 and August 1994; is that correct?
25 A. I didn't understand the question. Could you repeat it, please.
Page 14789
1 Q. In that period of time, did you ever fire a weapon, you
2 personally, onto the other side of the front line?
3 A. I said only under necessity, when there was a major attack by the
4 Muslim army.
5 Q. But you didn't think there were civilians living or around the
6 area close to the front line; is that correct or not?
7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] It's the same technique. This
10 question has been put to this witness. He has answered it clearly, and
11 one keeps coming back to it again and again. It's close to harassment.
12 MR. IERACE: Mr. President.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. -- Yes, Mr. Ierace.
14 MR. IERACE: I don't understand the objection.
15 JUDGE ORIE: The objection is the question has been answered
16 before and that therefore there would be no need to put it again to the
17 witness.
18 MR. IERACE: It leads to a further point this time round,
19 Mr. President. But I'm happy to rephrase it.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Would you please do so.
21 MR. IERACE:
22 Q. When you fired weapons into the ABiH territory, did you allow for
23 the possibility that there were civilians in the area?
24 A. We opened fire --
25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Objection, Mr. President.
Page 14790
1 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, could I ask you to take off your headphones.
2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] This question is the very
3 example of an ambush because there's so many circumstances under which one
4 might open fire. Perhaps the witness was attacked. He had to return
5 fire. Maybe he saw a soldier preparing for action. He had to open fire,
6 et cetera. When he's told in such case, did you open fire? Did you know
7 there was a civilian behind? I think one should be precise and one should
8 not make any automatic implication.
9 MR. IERACE: Mr. President.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
11 MR. IERACE: It wasn't a leading question, even though it's
12 cross-examination. The witness has already said that he presumed that
13 there were not civilians living in the immediate area of the front line on
14 the other side. It's a fair question. When he fired into ABiH territory,
15 did he allow for the possibility that there were civilians in the area?
16 [Trial Chamber confers]
17 JUDGE ORIE: The objection is denied.
18 Please proceed, Mr. Ierace.
19 MR. IERACE:
20 Q. I'll repeat the question: When you fired weapons in --
21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I just wanted to say that if
24 we -- if Mr. Ierace is to be heard, the witness should put on his
25 headphones.
Page 14791
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could you please put them on.
2 Yes, Mr. Ierace. It has advantages if the witness has his
3 headphones on.
4 MR. IERACE: Sometimes it has advantages to have them off,
5 Mr. President.
6 Q. I'll repeat the question, if I can find it.
7 JUDGE ORIE: The question was about --
8 MR. IERACE: Yes.
9 Q. When you fired weapons into ABiH territory, did you allow for the
10 possibility that there were civilians in the area?
11 A. At any point of time when a Muslim attack occurred against
12 Nedzarici, if we were opening fire, we took that into consideration. But
13 it was inconceivable to us that there would be anyone on the front line,
14 where combat was ongoing, where there was a separation of some 10 or 15
15 metres, that there should be any civilians there. Even mice hid in their
16 holes. My mother hid. When I go home, I would hear her say, "When the
17 shooting started, I hid under the bed," things like that.
18 Q. All right. So you're saying that when there was an operation on,
19 when there was a fair degree of military activity on both sides, at those
20 times you would expect civilians to make themselves scarce; is that
21 correct?
22 A. Certainly. If there were any civilians, I would expect them to
23 hide.
24 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, might the witness be shown P3279T with
25 the number 9A.
Page 14792
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Ierace, could you give us now an indication
2 how much time you still need, because we have to take into account as well
3 the tapes have to be changed if we go on for too long a time, and whether
4 we'd have another break.
5 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, at this stage my best estimate would
6 be the best part of an hour. I note there are a number of sniping
7 incidents which have been covered in this witness's testimony.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could you -- I'll do some accounting on the
9 time used until now, but let's have a break in approximately five minutes.
10 Could you find a suitable moment for that.
11 THE REGISTRAR: Is this document under seal?
12 MR. IERACE: I'm not sure. Perhaps the first photograph --
13 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic.
14 MR. IERACE: Yes well, Ms. Pilipovic --
15 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps first we will deal with the photograph and
16 then ask Ms. Pilipovic.
17 MR. IERACE: There's a sequence of three photographs,
18 Mr. President. It might save time if I give the relevant numbers. Excuse
19 me.
20 [Prosecution counsel confer]
21 MR. IERACE: That photograph is not under seal. Part of the same
22 set, I think, is photograph ending with the number 35. If you want to
23 start with that one and then go to 3A might be a better order. Thank you.
24 THE REGISTRAR: I would like 9A first?
25 MR. IERACE: 35 first and then 9A and then -- I'm sorry, 35 first,
Page 14793
1 then 3A, then 9A.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Ms. Pilipovic.
3 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, with your permission,
4 the Defence would just like to draw attention to the fact that the General
5 spent two hours today in a cold room. And in view of his health, we fear
6 that this could have adverse consequences on the proceedings.
7 And also I wish to say that the General did not even have lunch
8 today. So I really don't know about our working hours today.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
10 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] How productive they will be.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. First of all, General Galic, if your health
12 situation would not allow to continue, please inform me. That's, I would
13 say, a standing rule of which I hope you understood it to be consistently
14 in effect.
15 We will have a break, I think, in five minutes. Am I well
16 informed that you did not have any lunch? Then I'll take care that at
17 least there's something during the next break so that you'll not starve in
18 this -- I don't know whether you had any lunch or not, but ...
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Honour --
20 JUDGE ORIE: One moment, please.
21 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
22 JUDGE ORIE: Did you have lunch, General Galic, or not?
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Honour, may I address you?
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] First of all, I spent two hours in a
Page 14794
1 cold room, and I asked for some warmth and the guards tried to help me but
2 they didn't succeed, so I was very cold.
3 Secondly, I haven't had lunch, but I am not that hungry, and I
4 certainly won't starve.
5 And thirdly, I can sustain these additional efforts for as long as
6 is necessary. And especially I'd like to help my soldier to complete his
7 task here today, for him to be able to arrive -- to carry out his
8 obligations in time and also to allow the Court to complete their part of
9 the work. Thank you very much.
10 JUDGE ORIE: As I indicated before, this is highly appreciated.
11 I'll see to it that at least you'll get a warmer place for the next break.
12 There must be a solution to that. And at least that there would be
13 something to eat. I'll see whether we can manage that. Usually the food
14 is transported from the detention facilities, so there must have been
15 something wrong, or perhaps they were not prepared for you to stay here.
16 But I'll take care that something will be done.
17 Mr. Ierace.
18 Thank you very much, General Galic.
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I suggest, Your Honour, that -- I
20 don't want to create any problems regarding the food at all. It's not a
21 problem for me to be in the cell for 20 minutes or half an hour, but if
22 it's two hours then it's a problem. I hope you understand. I tried to
23 make myself very clear. Twenty to 30 minutes is okay, but two hours is a
24 bit too much. I don't want to waste any more of your time. Thank you.
25 JUDGE ORIE: If you ever have an afternoon additional hearing,
Page 14795
1 I'll take care that this will not happen again. And I'm learning slowly,
2 as you might have noticed. We highly appreciate your cooperation.
3 Mr. Ierace, if you could find a suitable moment, whether it would
4 be now or soon.
5 MR. IERACE: It would be now, Mr. President. And I emphasise that
6 I -- I cannot be confident that I will finish this properly in an hour.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please do your utmost best, because of
8 course I think -- I can imagine that especially if you're coming to the
9 photographs that that's a very relevant issue for the Prosecution. I
10 could have imagined, after what I've heard during the last half an hour,
11 that as far as priority is concerned, that you would have started with
12 that. I'm not the one who should tell you how to cross-examine the
13 witnesses, but I am a bit surprised, and I would really urge you to do
14 this efficiently and as quickly as possible.
15 We'll have a short break, then. I would say that 20 minutes might
16 do. We'll resume at five minutes to 6.00.
17 [Trial Chamber confers]
18 JUDGE ORIE: And I could add that the Prosecution should finish
19 this witness today, Mr. Ierace. I will assist you as good as I can, but
20 under the present circumstances, the Chamber thinks that we should
21 conclude today.
22 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I hear what you say. I note that the
23 Defence has taken one hour and 44 minutes on our reckoning. So far I've
24 taken 33 minutes. There have been a number of interruptions. Whilst we
25 will do everything we reasonably can to assist the witness, ultimately our
Page 14796
1 primary obligation requires us to seek the opportunity to fairly put all
2 of the relevant questions.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
4 MR. IERACE: But I'll do my best, Mr. President.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. We'll adjourn until five minutes to 6.00.
6 --- Recess taken at 5.34 p.m.
7 --- On resuming at 5.55 p.m.
8 JUDGE ORIE: I was informed of the attention that was paid to your
9 position, General Galic, during the break.
10 I see that Mr. Piletta-Zanin is on his feet. I was informed that
11 Mr. Ierace also would like to address the Chamber. Could you do it quick.
12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] It will be all the more
13 faster, since I have no intention to stay here till -- I'm just talking
14 about problems that I have with my laptop.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I'm certain that you'll be better assisted by
16 someone else than by the members of this Chamber.
17 Mr. Ierace.
18 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, just quickly for the record, firstly
19 the accused in the presence of the witness and looking at the witness said
20 just before the break "I'd like to help my soldier to complete his task
21 here today, for him to be able to arrive -- to carry out his obligations
22 in time and also to allow the Court to complete their part of the work."
23 It was inappropriate for the accused to say that in the presence of the
24 witness, to identify the witness as in the present tense "his soldier."
25 Secondly, in relation to the pressing time constraints on the
Page 14797
1 Prosecution, we'll do our best to assist, but I think it's reached the
2 point where I should make these quick observations. The witness said he's
3 been here 25 days, if that is to believed, because if he's been here 25
4 days that takes up back to the opening of the Defence.
5 JUDGE ORIE: I think he said 21 days but --
6 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I was informed it was 21 days, but he said 25
8 days.
9 Is this an issue that we should at this very moment solve,
10 Mr. Ierace?
11 MR. IERACE: Well, it's relevant in this way -- and I'll just
12 quickly add, if Ms. Pilipovic was concerned about her client not receiving
13 lunch, at the end of cross-examination and early into -- at the end of
14 examination-in-chief was not the time to raise it. It's relevant because
15 of the pressure which the Prosecution -- not just me personally -- is
16 under to deal with six scheduled incidents in an hour. Thank you.
17 [Trial Chamber confers]
18 JUDGE ORIE: We'll not give any -- I'll not say much on the
19 observations just made by Mr. Ierace, although certainly other words could
20 have been used by General Galic, the Chamber has understood what he said
21 as an expression of specifically -- of understanding what were the reasons
22 why the witness had to go back, and the Chamber therefore -- other words
23 could have been used. The Chamber does not adopt the view of the
24 Prosecution.
25 Let's just continue with the witness, if -- unless there's really
Page 14798
1 something that need attention now, and that's not a response to whether it
2 was the right time or not to talk about food or -- but only the witness.
3 Yes.
4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I am not responding.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] But I have to say this: For
7 the Defence, this type of intervention by the Prosecution represents an
8 attempt to destabilise the Defence and the accused and clearly it violate
9 it is principle --
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, has the response of the Chamber
11 not been clear enough?
12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] It was crystal clear,
13 Mr. President.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Usher, could you please escort the witness into
15 the courtroom.
16 [The witness entered court]
17 JUDGE ORIE: Please be seated, Mr. DP8.
18 Mr. Ierace, please continue.
19 MR. IERACE: Might the witness be shown the map for sniping
20 incident 25 that was shown to the witness by the Defence.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
22 THE REGISTRAR: That is D1775.
23 MR. IERACE: Thank you for that.
24 Q. Sir, on the map in front of you, do you see the number "26" along
25 a dot?
Page 14799
1 A. I do.
2 Q. Earlier you said that that part of that building could not be seen
3 from positions held by the VRS; is that correct?
4 A. Of course it is.
5 Q. In fact I think you said that side of the building, or words to
6 that effect, could not be seen from positions held by the VRS; is that
7 correct?
8 A. Yes. From that side where it says "26," you could not see it from
9 where the Army of Republika Srpska was.
10 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please come closer to the
11 microphone.
12 MR. IERACE:
13 Q. Could you please move closer to the microphone when you give your
14 answers to that we can hear you.
15 Now, do you base that on the way the buildings appear on the map,
16 or do you base it on your own observations made from positions of the VRS?
17 A. I am saying on the basis of what I knew at the time when I was in
18 the Army of Republika Srpska, that is, between 1992 to 1994/1995, and I'm
19 saying that one could not see them from any of our positions, any of the
20 positions from which the Army of Republika Srpska operated.
21 MR. IERACE: All right. Perhaps that map might be kept close by
22 and in the meantime the witness shown photograph 35. I think it's part of
23 Exhibit P3279T.
24 Q. Do you recognise the buildings which appear in this photograph?
25 A. I do.
Page 14800
1 Q. Do you see that in the centre of the photograph, there is a gap
2 between the two high-rise buildings to either side, behind which one can
3 see a third high-rise building filling the gap?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Do you agree that it's apparent that the photograph was taken from
6 somewhere in Nedzarici, in particular clearly in an area that was occupied
7 by the VRS?
8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I object.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. --
10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No, sorry. I withdraw it, not
11 to waste time.
12 MR. IERACE:
13 Q. What do you say to that?
14 A. This was not taken from the lines held by the Army of Republika
15 Srpska. This was taken from somewhere in the heart of Nedzarici, that is,
16 2 or 300 metres away from the city, away from Vojnicko Polje.
17 Q. Do you accept that it was taken from somewhere in territory held
18 during the war by the VRS?
19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I must object. After all,
22 when one knows the modern means, that is, the objectives technically, this
23 photograph could have been taken from no matter where. So if the question
24 has to do with the exact location, it cannot be answered because the
25 witness was not there. Thank you.
Page 14801
1 MR. IERACE: I will ask another question to accommodate my
2 friend's concern.
3 Q. Do you accept the view that this photograph affords of this
4 building is a view one could have had from territory held by the VRS
5 ?
6 A. Not in the war.
7 Q. I see.
8 MR. IERACE: I ask the witness be shown -- I withdraw that.
9 Q. Have you ever seen the building alongside the number 26 which
10 appeared on the map? Have you ever been to that building or stood outside
11 the front of it or driven past it?
12 A. I've been looking at those buildings for 20 years, passing by
13 them, entering them.
14 MR. IERACE: All right. Might the witness be shown the photograph
15 ending with the number and letter 9A.
16 Q. Sir, that is a photograph of that building; do you agree?
17 A. I do.
18 Q. Do you notice that around the entrance which appears at the foot
19 of one of the buildings there appears to be shell damage and small arms
20 fire?
21 A. Yes.
22 MR. IERACE: Might the witness now be shown the photograph ending
23 with the number and letter 3A.
24 Q. Sir, this is a photograph taken from one of the top storeys of the
25 building which appeared in the earlier photograph. Do you recognise the
Page 14802
1 institute of theology appearing in the gap between the two buildings in
2 the photograph?
3 A. I am positive that this is not the same photograph that was shown
4 me a moment ago, and the building for which you said -- and this is not
5 the building that you say was destroyed. I am very well familiar with
6 that area, and I know the position of the buildings and which one faces
7 which. I told you that I've live there had for 20 years and I know very
8 well.
9 Q. Yes. I understand your belief. I understand your evidence. Do
10 you identify the institute of theology appearing in the gap between the
11 two high-rise buildings?
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No, sorry.
14 JUDGE ORIE: So witness, the question was whether you recognise in
15 the gap between the buildings, the institute of theology. So forget for a
16 moment -- yes? Your answer was yes?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Ierace.
19 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Mr. Ierace.
20 MR. IERACE: Thank you.
21 Q. The houses in between the high-rise buildings immediately in the
22 front and the institute in the background, they were all on the VRS side
23 of the front line, were they not?
24 A. They were, yes.
25 Q. The houses as they appear in this photograph were not -- do not
Page 14803
1 show the condition they were in at any stage during the war, do they?
2 A. They don't, no.
3 Q. This photograph shows this residential area half clearly recent
4 rebuilding, including what appear to be new roofs; is that correct?
5 A. It is. And one can see that the monastery building has been
6 renovated, that is, the building of the school of theology.
7 Q. Yes. And this photograph also demonstrates the height of the
8 institute compared to the surrounding buildings; correct?
9 A. Well, this photograph shows how tall is the building by comparing
10 it with the building that this photograph was taken of, because the
11 building that this photograph was taken from is eight-storeys high and
12 this school of theology three storeys. So one can see how much lower
13 these houses are than the one from which the photograph was taken, and
14 this include it is school of theology.
15 Q. Yes.
16 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, at this stage might the witness be
17 shown D1764. It's a map. And might the witness be given a ruler.
18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the Defence
19 proposes to offer its ruler to the Prosecution if the Prosecution will
20 accept it.
21 MR. IERACE: I'm sure it's straight, Mr. President.
22 Might the ELMO focus in on the pen drawings on the map. Perhaps
23 the map might be raised a little. Thank you.
24 Perhaps the ELMO could back off a little. Stop there. And could
25 the map be pulled downwards so that we can see higher up the map -- no,
Page 14804
1 the other direction. Thank you. Just there.
2 Q. Now, will you please point to the buildings which constituted the
3 institute for blind children, or as it's sometimes called, the school for
4 the blind or the school for blind children.
5 A. [Indicates]
6 Q. All right. Now, how many -- do you see on the map there are some
7 red -- that is, dark red shapes near the intersection of Lukavicka Cesta?
8 And Aleja Bosne Srebrene Street. Yes. I think on this map we can see two
9 shapes which seem to indicate buildings. How many buildings were there in
10 that complex for the Institute of the Blind?
11 A. Three buildings make the Institute for the Blind.
12 Q. Yes. Can you assist me with the name of the street which runs
13 alongside them. Aleja Bosne -- what is the name of that street?
14 A. It is called Aleja Bosne Srebrene now. And that is what this map
15 says.
16 Q. Thank you for that. And does one of the buildings of the
17 institute immediately abut that road at the intersection with Lukavicka
18 Cesta?
19 A. No. It is not right next to the intersection. It is further away
20 from the main road there, that is, some 15 or 20 metres away from Aleja
21 Bosne Srebrene. And that is how it should be and that is how it is.
22 Q. All right. Now, do you see that there is another red symbol
23 immediately above and slightly to the left of the one alongside the road?
24 Do you see that?
25 A. I didn't understand.
Page 14805
1 Q. There are two red building symbols, so it would seem, on this map;
2 one alongside the other near that junction. Are they where you would
3 expect to see the Institute for the Blind?
4 A. More or less.
5 Q. Yes.
6 A. I said that one of those buildings was away from the street. It
7 was on the street. It was some 15 or 20 metres off the street.
8 Q. All right. Please take the ruler and lay it on the map so that
9 one of the edges of the ruler is on one of those two buildings and the
10 other edge points towards Ante Babica Street, that is, the intersection.
11 A. [Witness complies]
12 Q. Thank you. Can you now move the ruler slightly sideways to the
13 right so that the edge shows us a line between the institute for blind
14 children, as it appears on the map, and the intersection of Ante Babica
15 and the street that runs alongside the institute.
16 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, it might save time if I could approach
17 the map and place the ruler as I want it.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You may do so.
19 MR. IERACE: Thank you.
20 Q. Now, I think you can accept from me - I'm sure the Defence will
21 indicate if what I'm about to say is incorrect - that the intersection
22 which the ruler crosses on Ante Babica Street is the point indicated by
23 the dot 21 on the map you were shown earlier, and the other -- and the
24 building --
25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President.
Page 14806
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I must make an objection,
3 since one is playing with the ruler. We've never done that. We've never
4 played with it. Yes, indeed the ruler -- on the other hand, how do you
5 want the witness to recognise it if the names are not exact? He's asking
6 to speak from memory, points 21, 25.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] 26.
9 JUDGE ORIE: If the witness does not know, we could ask him and
10 show him the other map.
11 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, there is such -- not a great difference by
12 guiding the witness exactly to put the rule there where the Defence want
13 to have it or to do it by yourself. I mean, the result in both cases is
14 the ruler is on the place where the party that questions the witness wants
15 the ruler to be.
16 Please proceed, Mr. Ierace. But I can imagine that the
17 recollection of the witness as to points of certain numbers might not
18 be --
19 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I don't expect him to have that
20 recollection, and that's why I want it to be made clear to the witness by
21 a lack of objection from the Defence that the rule is fairly placed to
22 indicate a point of 21 on the earlier map, in terms of intersection.
23 Q. Now, when you cast your eye along the edge of the ruler from the
24 school for the blind to that intersection, do you agree that it does not
25 intersect the student hostel as it is depicted on this map?
Page 14807
1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I have a formal objection
4 here. The witness says no [As interpreted]. One should first verify on
5 other maps because every time we have different maps. That is what I have
6 been always saying.
7 JUDGE ORIE: I see the --
8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] We have to --
9 JUDGE ORIE: Whether the witness says no or not, we -- I did not
10 hear him say anything. Nothing was translated. And you know what the
11 guidance is, Mr. Piletta-Zanin. What the witness says should be asked to
12 him and not be expressed to anyone else unless it comes to us through the
13 interpretation. That's one issue.
14 The second issue is that I, and I think the Chamber, observed that
15 both parties are trying to get the best out of the maps they're using.
16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Problems of interpretation. I
19 did not say -- at least I think I did not say that the witness said no.
20 The interpreter's comment it was the witness who said no during -- while
21 Mr. Piletta-Zanin was objecting.
22 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... because it
23 appeared in the translation as something you said and I now understand
24 that it was the witness who said this.
25 Please proceed, Mr. Ierace.
Page 14808
1 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President.
2 Q. Do you agree that the student hostel is -- first of all, was
3 constituted by two high-rise buildings? Is that correct?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And on this map they have a circle placed around them with the
6 number "6" above the circle; is that correct?
7 A. I can't see the number -- oh, yes. Yes. Yes, right. Yes.
8 Q. All right. And do you agree that the way I placed the ruler was
9 so that the edge passed over the building as indicated furthest from the
10 street, the building of the institute for blind children? Do you agree?
11 A. But this ruler could not be positioned like this, over the
12 intersection, because you cannot see the intersection from the home for
13 the blind.
14 Q. I'll come to that. But please listen to the question carefully.
15 When you were invited by the Defence to place a ruler, and in fact I think
16 to draw a line, from the school for the blind to that particular
17 intersection, it passed over -- the line passed over the southern-most of
18 the student hostel buildings. Do you recollect that?
19 A. I do.
20 Q. Okay. On this map that doesn't happen, does it?
21 A. It is.
22 Q. So what we learn from this is that one or both of the maps are
23 inaccurate as to the positions of at least these buildings; is that
24 correct?
25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President.
Page 14809
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] The witness is speaking over
3 the counsel. This, counsel, this is a question which is a trap, because
4 we draw a line between two points and something is not in the middle of
5 the thing. It is obvious that the maps do -- are not identical. So
6 asking this question does not lead us anywhere.
7 MR. IERACE: Mr. President.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
9 MR. IERACE: It was Mr. Piletta-Zanin who chose to use this
10 technique. I'm entitled to respond to it and I've made my point.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Of course you're entitled to respond to that. But if
12 on one map the ruler crosses what appears to be a building in the map and
13 if on the other not, I think it would be clear to the Chamber that the
14 maps -- either one of them or both of them are different and therefore
15 could not be correct --
16 MR. IERACE: Yes.
17 JUDGE ORIE: -- unless a proper explanation is given. I would say
18 that it speaks almost for itself.
19 Please proceed.
20 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, might the witness be shown now
21 P3279NN, photographs ending in 0, 9, and 11. Perhaps we could start off
22 with photograph 11.
23 I think we'll need to pan back and adjust the light on the ELMO.
24 No, that's the wrong photograph. Could we just see the number on that
25 photograph.
Page 14810
1 JUDGE ORIE: I think it's the right one.
2 MR. IERACE: No, I must have given the wrong number. Your
3 Honour -- no, that is correct. Thank you.
4 Q. Sir, do you recognise what appears in this photograph?
5 A. I do.
6 Q. All right. And I suggest to you that the photograph shows the
7 view from one part of the institute for blind children.
8 A. This is the corner of the building for the blind, and it faces
9 Nedzarici. So this photograph seems to have been taken from a crane or
10 something, not from the Institute for Blind Children. Next to it, right
11 next to the wall, to the side wall facing Nedzarici.
12 On another photograph one can see where it -- where the shopping
13 centre was taken, the true picture -- the mirror of this wall of the
14 Institute for the Blind, what one can see from there.
15 Q. All right. So in a word, you don't accept this photograph as
16 taken from the -- one of the buildings of the institute for blind
17 children. Is that correct; yes or no?
18 A. Next to the building, yes.
19 Q. But not from the building or buildings.
20 A. No.
21 Q. Do you see the drainpipe in the top left-hand corner of the
22 photograph, part of the roof?
23 A. I do.
24 Q. Can I suggest to you that this was taken from a window on the top
25 floor of the building closest to the street, to the intersection.
Page 14811
1 A. And I put it to you that it wasn't, because that is where I
2 attended school, and I know the place very well.
3 Q. You attended school at the institute for blind children? Did you?
4 A. Next to the Institute for the Blind was Alekse Santica primary
5 school. Later on it became a workshop for the blind. But I attended
6 there primary school and our school dentist had his surgery in the home
7 for the blind. That is where we went to have our teeth repaired.
8 Q. Well, let me ask you this: Given your evidence earlier, in
9 relation to the intersection of Ante Babica Street and Aleja Bosne
10 Srebrene Street, do you say that the intersection could not be seen at
11 all, or do you say the intersection could be seen -- in particular there
12 were barricades which prevented one seeing the intersection itself? If it
13 wasn't for the barricades, one could see the intersection? Which is it?
14 A. From the building of the Institute for the Blind it was not
15 possible to see the intersection from the lines held by the Army of
16 Republika Srpska. There were a couple of buildings -- you can see the
17 roof here of this new building. There were three or four catering
18 establishments with two floors, just like the Institute for the Blind and
19 which existed, only they had been destroyed just as the building for the
20 blind, and the Muslim soldiers used those as trenches.
21 Q. My question is simply this: From the institute of blind
22 children -- let's say in -- at the end of 1993. If it wasn't for
23 barricades, would you have been able to see that intersection?
24 A. At the end of 1993? No.
25 Q. You couldn't have seen it. You couldn't have seen it.
Page 14812
1 A. No.
2 Q. Could you see the barricades across the intersection?
3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] We have to be precise
6 regarding the point of view. The point of this witness were three
7 barricades, and now we're talking about barricades at the intersection. I
8 think we should specify exactly the point of view that Mr. Ierace is
9 referring to when putting this question to the witness.
10 JUDGE ORIE: I have a question first to the witness: Mr. DP8, you
11 told us that this photograph seems to have been taken from a crane or
12 something not from the institute of the blind children, next to it, right
13 next to the wall, to the side wall facing Nedzarici. Looking at this
14 picture, looking at the drainpipe, how far would the camera be away from
15 that side wall, the camera that was used when taking this picture?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know. I'm not a
17 photographer.
18 JUDGE ORIE: No. But you said that it was next -- right next to
19 the wall and even -- I'm not a photographer either. Could you look at the
20 picture and see whether that would be 30 centimetres, 1 metre, 10 metres.
21 Try to look at the picture quite carefully.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said that the distance between the
23 home for the blind and the main road of Bosna Srebrene is 20 metre, so it
24 could be 20 metres from the home for the blind. And here you can
25 perfectly well see that the building itself is not right next to the road.
Page 14813
1 JUDGE ORIE: Is this building then -- the building of which you
2 see the drainpipe, is that the building of the institute for the blind
3 children?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Ierace.
6 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President.
7 Q. Now, you told us that nevertheless you did see some barricades in
8 the vicinity of the intersection; is that correct?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. I suggest to you that as of early October 1993 the nature of those
11 barricades was concrete. There was a concrete barricades across part of
12 the intersection.
13 A. I claim that --
14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Translation, please. I have
15 to say I don't think I heard -- I may have to apologise. I don't think I
16 heard in the Serbian translation "a part of." And this shade of meaning
17 is important for Mr. Ierace. I don't think I heard it in the Serbian
18 language. So if we want a correct answer from the witness, we need to
19 have the question correctly translated to him.
20 MR. IERACE: I'll repeat the question, Mr. President. I'll repeat
21 the question.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please do.
23 MR. IERACE: Perhaps I'll rephrase it.
24 Q. You marked the positions of three barricades on a map for us
25 earlier. The one closest to the intersection was not actually on the
Page 14814
1 intersection but, rather, crossed the road closer to the Institute for the
2 Blind, that, some distance short of the intersection itself; is that
3 correct?
4 A. That first barricade next to the Institute for the Blind was
5 behind. On this picture it was behind the shopping centre where they had
6 their trenches and they passed along them --
7 Q. Let me stop you. Let me stop you. I'm talking of the
8 barricade -- of the three barricades, the one that was closest to the
9 intersection at Ante Babica Street. And what I'm putting to you is that
10 whatever barricade was at that intersection, on the 4th of October, 1993
11 was concrete and was not 3 metres high or 2 metres high. It was no higher
12 than, say, 2 metres -- in fact, it was less. What do you say to that?
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I have to underline that the
15 testimony of the witness was that these barricades were 3 metres high.
16 MR. IERACE: And that is exactly why I put to him that they were
17 not 3 metres high.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You should not have intervened at this moment,
19 Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
20 Please proceed, Mr. Ierace.
21 MR. IERACE: I'll repeat the question.
22 Q. The barricade that on the 4th of October, 1993 existed at or near
23 that intersection was concrete in nature and certainly not more than 2
24 metres high. What do you say to that?
25 A. I do not agree with you.
Page 14815
1 Q. All right.
2 MR. IERACE: Now, might the witness be shown the second
3 photograph. And perhaps at first he could see both photographs side by
4 side.
5 Q. Sir, if you compare the two photographs, I think it will become
6 clear to you that the second shows a close-up taken from the same position
7 as the first photograph if you look carefully at the intersection of Ante
8 Babica Street and the street that runs alongside the institute, I think
9 that will become clear to you.
10 Now, my first question is this: Do you agree that the view
11 afforded from the top floor of the institute building either from where
12 this photograph was taken or alongside where this photograph was taken
13 gives a view of the intersection such that barriers in the first two
14 positions that you indicated on the map would not have blocked the view of
15 the intersection? Do you understand the question?
16 A. No. Because this picture seems to have been taken from the roof
17 and not from one of the floors.
18 Q. All right.
19 A. Serb positions were at the foot of the building for blind
20 children, on the ground floor. And that is why I claim that not a single
21 intersection could be seen. Only along the road of Bosna Srebrene could
22 one see the barricades positioned there from the road itself.
23 Q. We won't take that any further at this stage. Perhaps those
24 photographs could be removed.
25 You told us that you went to the school for the blind as part of
Page 14816
1 your duties. How many times did you go there between September 1992 and
2 August 1994?
3 A. Two or three times I went there.
4 Q. When were those times?
5 A. Well, in the period between 1992 and 1994, so I would go there in
6 1992 to look around, to see how I could approach it with an armoured
7 carrier, to pull out a wounded or killed combatant, and then again in
8 1993.
9 Q. All right. Are you saying that you went there only two or three
10 times between September 1992 and August 1994?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And are you saying the first time that you went there was
13 essentially to scout a safe approach for any future visit you might make
14 to the site? Is that correct?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. After that first visit, you only returned once, perhaps twice,
17 before August 1994; is that correct?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. What was the nature of your return visit? Was it to deliver food
20 or to retrieve a body or to retrieve a wounded soldier or what?
21 A. On one occasion it was to retrieve a wounded person from the line
22 there.
23 Q. When you arrived, was the wounded soldier inside one of the
24 buildings?
25 A. The wounded soldier was behind the building for the blind and was
Page 14817
1 waiting for the APC to arrive so that he could be pulled out.
2 Q. Did you go into the building on that occasion, since the wounded
3 soldier was behind the buildings?
4 A. On that occasion, no. But on the first occasion, yes.
5 Q. All right. When to the best of your recollection did you go there
6 the first time?
7 A. The first time was when I was touring the line, as I said, to see
8 from where the Muslim forces may open fire.
9 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... when? In which month in
10 1992?
11 A. In mid-1992.
12 Q. Before September; is that correct?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. All right. And the time that you retrieved the wounded person was
15 when, the wounded soldier? What month, what year?
16 A. In 1993.
17 Q. When in 1993?
18 A. Let's say in February 1993.
19 Q. Do you recall a third occasion or not?
20 A. After that I went to the Institute for the Blind because I knew
21 the guys who were there on the front line --
22 Q. No, please listen to the question. Before August of 1994, did you
23 go there a third time?
24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I wish to
25 object.
Page 14818
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] This is the second time that
3 an almost aggressive tone is being used. And when the witness gives his
4 own answers for the reasons why he went there, if he's interrupted it's
5 not quite fair. Thank you.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Let me just reread.
7 The witness gave his answer, but it was not a precise answer to
8 the question.
9 Mr. Ierace, I think I once said to Mr. Piletta-Zanin, but it's
10 quite some time ago, that questions put nicely to a witness sometimes give
11 the answers you are seeking. Please proceed.
12 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President.
13 Q. You've told us about the first time. You've told us about the
14 second time. If you went there a third time before August 1994, when was
15 it? In other words, what month, what year?
16 A. I cannot remember with precision. I cannot remember the date or
17 month. But in any case, it was in 1994, because as I said, we would visit
18 all the lines in Nedzarici, those of us who were in charge of retrieving
19 the wounded and the dead.
20 Q. So you're saying it was in 1994, but you don't know whether it was
21 before, during, or after August; is that correct?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And on that occasion, whenever it was in 1994, did you go inside
24 any of the buildings at the institute?
25 A. I said that I entered on the first occasion and that I looked
Page 14819
1 around to see what could be seen from the positions held by soldiers of
2 the Army of Republika Srpska.
3 Q. I'm not asking about the first occasion. That was in mid-1992.
4 When you went there in 1994, did you go into any of the buildings of the
5 institute for blind children?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. How long were you there for?
8 A. I spent an hour or two.
9 Q. All right. And I think you started to say that you knew some of
10 the people that were there, some of the soldiers; is that correct?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Was it a social visit?
13 A. No.
14 Q. All right. What was the purpose -- what was the work purpose for
15 you to be there?
16 A. In order to see again how I can access the area and for them to
17 show me roughly from which positions they could target me with mortars,
18 Zoljas, Osas from where I could be hit when I come with a transporter
19 to fetch the wounded. So that was our practice throughout the war, to
20 tour the lines, to see from what positions we might be targeted and
21 therefore to protect myself.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, until now I tried to make an inventory.
23 There's one, at least one question from the Bench. So would you please --
24 and we also are informed that transportation to the Detention Unit could
25 not take place after 7.00, so would you please keep that in mind for the
Page 14820
1 next 14 minutes.
2 MR. IERACE:
3 Q. When you went inside -- I withdraw that.
4 You told us that a platoon had responsibility for that building;
5 is that correct?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. All right. And did you notice inside the manner in which the
8 platoon protected themselves from fire from the other side? For instance,
9 were there sandbags inside?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Because the building had a number of large windows that faced onto
12 the enemy, didn't it?
13 A. From that side -- on that side there were no windows. There were
14 just a concrete wall, and on the right-hand side facing the Federation --
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I think this is
17 a trap, in view of what we know and what we heard as testimony. The
18 witness has answered, but I wanted to say that this method of proceeding
19 seems to me to be a trap, a question to trap the witness in view of what
20 we know from the proceedings so far.
21 JUDGE ORIE: We know a lot about a lot of buildings. I think it's
22 not a question that would not be admissible in cross-examination.
23 Please proceed, Mr. Ierace.
24 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I also object to the expression of
25 that intervention in the presence of the witness with his headphones on.
Page 14821
1 Q. All right. Now, I suggest to you that there were windows in those
2 buildings which could be seen from the ABiH side. In particular, across
3 the shopping centre, the high-rise buildings on the other side had a view
4 of the windows in the institute, didn't they?
5 A. From the shopping centre, yes.
6 Q. Yes. And that, I take it, was obviously the reason that there
7 were sandbags inside the institute, to protect the soldiers from fire
8 coming in through the windows. Is that correct?
9 A. On that side there were no sandbags, because the line was not on
10 that side because that building which you say has windows was facing the
11 old school, the elementary school I went to, and that building was a Serb
12 position. So from the old school, the position was again facing the
13 shopping centre, as you call it.
14 Q. All right. Did you go upstairs on that visit in 1994?
15 A. No.
16 Q. One of the buildings had a ground plus two floors, didn't it?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Did you go into that building?
19 A. I entered all the buildings that were part of the Institute for
20 the Blind. So I entered that one as well, though I don't know which one
21 you mean. The first one next to the road?
22 Q. All right. Were there two buildings that had ground plus two
23 floors, as you remember it?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Okay. Did you go upstairs in either of the two buildings in 1994?
Page 14822
1 A. No. Because that would be equal to suicide. It was all exposed
2 and ruined and could be seen from all the buildings, especially from the
3 Oslobodjne building and the new old people's home, from the student
4 hostels, from Vojnicko Polje. It was -- one would be seen as on the palm
5 of one's hand. So as far as I know, no one went up there.
6 Q. So you don't know whether there were sandbags upstairs or not
7 because you didn't go up. Is that the position? I'm talking now about
8 the first floor and second floor of those two buildings.
9 A. I told you that --
10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I'm sorry, but the witness has
11 just said that he didn't go upstairs, so why is he being asked whether he
12 knows or doesn't know whether there were sandbags when he said that he
13 didn't go upstairs?
14 JUDGE ORIE: An objection to a question is not asking why a
15 question is put but if it's a question that's not admissible.
16 Please proceed, Mr. Ierace.
17 MR. IERACE:
18 Q. Is that correct? Because you did not go upstairs in those two
19 buildings, you don't know what measures there might have been upstairs to
20 protect soldiers from fire from ABiH positions; is that correct?
21 A. I'm telling you that the trenches of the Serbian army were on the
22 bottom floors, and it was not possible to make a trench on any one of the
23 floors of the Institute for the Blind.
24 Q. All right. I'm not asking about the trenches, but we'll leave it
25 at that.
Page 14823
1 MR. IERACE: Might the witness be shown P3274, photographs 95 and
2 96. And perhaps I could see them quickly before they go to the witness.
3 THE REGISTRAR: Just for the record, Mr. Ierace, it's P3274B and
4 P3274C.
5 MR. IERACE: Thank you for that.
6 Yes, very quickly.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace asked to have a look at them quickly.
8 MR. IERACE: Could you show the witness B first.
9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I will have only one question
10 in the re-examination. I just wish to tell you that. Thank you.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, could you conclude in approximately three
12 minutes. Please proceed.
13 MR. IERACE: All right.
14 Q. Now, do you recognise the view which appears in that photograph?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Do you agree that it's a photograph looking towards the direction
17 of Nedzarici?
18 A. This is -- these are houses belonging to the airport settlement,
19 and the Muslims held these houses --
20 Q. No. Please listen to the question. As you look up the street in
21 the middle of the photograph, do you agree that it's in the direction of
22 Nedzarici? In other words, if you -- as the crow flies, if you continued
23 in that direction, eventually you would come to Nedzarici.
24 MR. IERACE: Might the witness be shown the map for sniping
25 incident 22.
Page 14824
1 A. At the end of Nedzarici. To the end of Nedzarici.
2 MR. IERACE: That's the Defence exhibit which was shown to the
3 witness earlier. I think it is 1773.
4 Might that be placed on the ELMO quickly.
5 Q. Do you see number -- the dot with an arrow alongside and a number
6 22 on the map?
7 MR. IERACE: Could the ELMO please pan back. Thank you. Further.
8 Thank you.
9 Q. Do you see the dot indicated by the number 22. Please point to
10 it.
11 A. [Indicates]
12 Q. Do you accept that the photograph shows the view from the area of
13 the dot number 22 looking up that long road towards Nedzarici?
14 A. I didn't understand the question. The whole of Nedzarici?
15 Q. Do you agree that the photograph was taken from around point 22
16 looking west?
17 A. This photograph?
18 Q. Yes.
19 A. No.
20 Q. You don't. All right. Would you please look at the map and with
21 the pointer first place the pointer on the dot indicated by number 22.
22 A. [Indicates]
23 Q. Thank you. Now, move the pointer along the road to the left.
24 A. Here you can see just these two first buildings in Dobrinja, which
25 lean on the Muslim settlement. But there are some other buildings on the
Page 14825
1 side.
2 Q. All right. Please wait. All right. All right. All right. I
3 take it therefore from what you just said that you understand that the
4 photograph shows us the view if you stand around point 22 and look up that
5 street that you just indicated. Is that correct?
6 A. No.
7 Q. All right.
8 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, that's as far as I can go in the time.
9 I do require further time. I will review how much I have left to go, and
10 at some stage indicate that to the Trial Chamber and also the topics.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, one question you said you have.
12 Not two or three, which means a couple or more, but one question. Please
13 proceed.
14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] None, but an observation. The
15 bank has exploded even in the system of banking --
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, let's do that tomorrow when the
17 witness has left, and not discuss this at this very moment when the Bench
18 also has a question.
19 [Trial Chamber confers]
20 Questioned by the Court:
21 JUDGE ORIE: You told us, Witness DP8, that in front of the
22 institute for theology, there were pine trees. You also told us that they
23 had not been felled during the war. You didn't say anything about after
24 the war. Were they then felled, or do you know, or do you know that they
25 were not felled?
Page 14826
1 A. I don't know about the period after the war. I didn't go there. I
2 know that the convent itself was renovated because after the signing of
3 the Dayton Agreement, I left my home and left that place.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
5 A. I moved out.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. DP8, this concludes your testimony in this court.
7 The Chamber is aware that the Prosecution might not agree that this
8 concludes the testimony in this court, but that's a procedural issue
9 that -- that we have to discuss later, whether to see whether this witness
10 for this reason should be recalled. So I'm not guaranteeing you that you
11 do not have to return; but as it stands now, this would conclude your
12 examination.
13 As you may have noticed, everyone did their utmost best in order
14 to make it possible for you to leave The Hague tomorrow and to return. So
15 whether it's a final thank to you that you came and asked -- answered the
16 questions of both parties and the Bench or that is just provisionally
17 thanking you is not for the full 100 per cent certain. But one thing is
18 certain: That I wish you at least tomorrow a safe trip to your home
19 country.
20 Madam Usher, you may escort the witness out of the courtroom.
21 [The witness withdrew]
22 MR. IERACE: Mr. President.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
24 MR. IERACE: Might the record indicate that the witness waved
25 towards the accused as he left. Thank you.
Page 14827
1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Microphone not activated]
2 The witness greeted me in a cordial manner, and I greeted him in
3 return.
4 THE INTERPRETER: The microphone is not on. I'm sorry.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, I think that as a general rule, we
6 should refrain from everything that is not functional for these
7 proceedings, whether it's waving, whether it's whatever other gesture.
8 Professionals should do that, and everyone should do that in this
9 courtroom. I think that should be clear. I didn't see it, so I can't
10 comment on it. I could have a look at the video pictures, but I don't
11 know whether it's necessary to do that. It may be clear for everyone that
12 all non-functional gestures should be avoided to the extent possible, but
13 I'm aware that you can't stop your eyes moving.
14 We'll adjourn until tomorrow morning at 9.00. If there's any
15 issue as far as the recalling of this witness is concerned, the Chamber
16 would like to hear from that at a later stage.
17 MR. IERACE: Do you mean 9.00 tomorrow morning, Mr. President, or
18 later?
19 JUDGE ORIE: No, not specifically tomorrow morning.
20 MR. IERACE: Thank you.
21 JUDGE ORIE: I mean, the witness leaves anyhow.
22 MR. IERACE: Yes.
23 JUDGE ORIE: We'll adjourn until tomorrow at 9.00.
24 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned
25 at 7.02 p.m., to be reconvened on Friday,
Page 14828
1 the 1st day of November, 2002, at 9.00 a.m.
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