Page 16474
1 Thursday, 28 November 2002
2 [Open Session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.04 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone. Madam Registrar, would you
6 please call the case.
7 THE REGISTRAR: [No interpretation]
8 JUDGE ORIE: I hear a lot of a language that I cannot understand
9 on channel four, so there must be some technical problem. Could we just
10 see -- now I hear only my own voice, which is certainly not more pleasant
11 than what I heard before, but it's English now. On five we now have
12 French, and I do understand that we have B/C/S on six. So everything is
13 now as it should be.
14 Madam Registrar, could you again call the case in a language I
15 understand.
16 THE REGISTRAR: Case Number IT-98-29-T, the Prosecutor versus
17 Stanislav Galic.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
19 Before the Prosecution continues to cross-examine the witness, I
20 was wondering, the Chamber was wondering whether we would get any
21 additional information about maps. Yes.
22 MR. IERACE: Yes, Mr. President. We met with the Defence
23 yesterday. I anticipate that I will be in a position to give you some
24 more information and an example at 11.00, if that is convenient to the
25 Trial Chamber.
Page 16475
1 JUDGE ORIE: We are anxious to hear at 11.00 what news there is
2 about maps. Then we could continue with the cross-examination of the
3 witness. Madam Usher, could you please escort the witness into the
4 courtroom.
5 [The witness entered court]
6 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Mr. DP18.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
8 JUDGE ORIE: May I remind you that you are still bound by the
9 solemn declaration that you have given at the beginning of your testimony.
10 Mr. Mundis, please proceed.
11 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President. I would ask with the
12 assistance of the usher that the witness be shown once again the large
13 coloured map. That would be map C2, Mr. President.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
15 WITNESS: WITNESS DP18 [Resumed]
16 [Witness answered through interpreter]
17 Cross-examined by Mr. Mundis: [Continued]
18 Q. Witness, yesterday when we took the recess we were focussing our
19 attention on the feature on the map marked as Obeljak, do you see that on
20 the map, and if you do can you please point to it with the pointer.
21 A. [Indicates]
22 Q. And that feature according to the map has an elevation of 1180
23 metres; is that correct?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. If you could please --
Page 16476
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. If you could please look to the north-east of Obeljak,
3 approximately 3 centimetres you'll see a feature marked as Golo Brdo or
4 Golo BR. Do you see that on the map and can you please point to it.
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. That feature, according to the map, has an elevation of 1246
7 metres; is that correct?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And finally, Witness, if you could look in a north northerly
10 direction slightly to the east of Golo Brdo, past the word "Lukva" do you
11 see another feature mark would an elevation of 1063 metres?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Now, Witness, I've asked you to draw to the Trial Chamber's
14 attention what is basically an arc of elevated hills from the Grivici area
15 through this hill that we just marked near Lukva. Can you please trace
16 the line on the map with the pointer of the hills that we spoke about.
17 A. [Indicates]
18 Q. Thank you. During the period that you've testified about, that is
19 1992 through 1994, these hills were under the control of the VRS; is that
20 correct?
21 A. No.
22 Q. At what point in time did the VRS come to control these hills?
23 A. From the end of July 1993.
24 Q. And from the end of July 1993 through the period at least to
25 include August 1994, the VRS maintained control of this arc of high
Page 16477
1 ground; is that correct?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And in effect, Witness, the area of Hadzici and its surroundings
4 settlements and villages compared the high ground that you've just
5 indicated was at a lower elevation; isn't that correct?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Witness, yesterday you told us that you saw on the ABiH side two
8 T-34 tanks; is that correct?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Do you recall testifying that the range of that weapon system is
11 18.000 to 20.000 metres?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Witness, I suggest to you that the effective range of the T-34
14 tank is more along the lines of 900 to 1.000 metres. What is your
15 response to that?
16 A. That's not true.
17 Q. During the course, Witness, of your military training in either in
18 the JNA or your military experience with the VRS, on how many occasions
19 did you personally train on the T-34 tank?
20 A. Never.
21 Q. Thank you, Witness.
22 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, the Prosecution has no further
23 questions at this time.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, we have a
Page 16478
1 number of questions that stem from the cross-examination.
2 Re-examined by Mr. Piletta-Zanin:
3 Q. [Interpretation] Witness, first of all, good morning.
4 A. Good morning.
5 Q. You were asked about the moment when the VRS took control of the
6 elevations in the surrounding area of the sector that we were talking
7 about, the urban sector we were talking about. My question is the
8 following: At the time that you mentioned, and I believe that was summer,
9 that is July of 1993, which battle took place at the time when these
10 elevations were taken?
11 A. Well, there were battles for Obeljak, Stupnik and Golo Brdo.
12 Q. Very well. And when you are talking about the fighting, what can
13 you say in relation to their importance and what I mean by that is what
14 was the intensity of the exchange of fire? How long did the fighting
15 last? What was its duration and so on?
16 A. I think it was for one day, day and a half, that's how long the
17 fighting lasted for these elevations.
18 Q. What type of exchange of fire?
19 A. There was infantry and artillery fire on both sides.
20 Q. Thank you very much. Now I'd like to come back to the question of
21 the tanks, the T-34 tanks. A question of the Prosecution and you said
22 that you never said any training on the T-34, and my question is the
23 following: Were you, however, in contact during either your military
24 service or during the war, were you in contact with weapons like tanks,
25 for instance, T-34s?
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Page 16480
1 A. With T-55, yes, but not with T-34.
2 Q. Very well. My question is the following: You said that your
3 weapons were often targeted by the weapons of the opposing side, the army
4 of the opposing side. And when you are speaking about the range of these
5 weapons, did you receive precise instructions regarding the protection of
6 your own weapons in relation to the tanks that could be active?
7 A. Yes. My crew was at about 2.000 metres away from that tank.
8 Q. Very well. And were you able to -- or I'll rephrase.
9 You still able to be a target for this tank at that distance?
10 MR. MUNDIS: Objection, Mr. President. That is a leading
11 question.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Would you please refrain from leading,
13 Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well.
15 Q. Witness, you said -- I'll rephrase the question. Were you ever
16 the target of firing from a tank during the period of the war?
17 MR. MUNDIS: Objection, that is also a leading question.
18 JUDGE ORIE: When your unit was targeted, do you know by what
19 weapons you were targeted?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As far as the tank T-35 [as
21 interpreted] is concerned, my crew wasn't targeted personally, wasn't
22 because we were sheltered, we sheltered ourselves, but it did target other
23 -- our colleagues, our fellow combatants.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Could you see that?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
Page 16481
1 JUDGE ORIE: And where at that very moment was this tank, and I
2 now hear T-35, was located exactly?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] T-34.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. It must be then an error in the transcript.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was on the Borak hill, on the
6 Borak hill.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, and that was at approximately what distance from
8 your positions?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] About 2.000 metres.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And you were exactly where located at that
11 moment?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] From our tank position -- from the
13 tank position -- sorry, on the Kopisanj hill above Hadzici.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could you see it with binoculars or with the
15 naked eye?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was possible with the naked eye,
17 but it was better to see the type of the tank with the binoculars because
18 it wasn't such a long distance, particularly the infantry from the bunkers
19 were able to see it with a naked eye.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
22 Q. Witness, you spoke about fighting with infantry weapons, do you
23 remember that?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Thank you. Can you be more specific as to what were the infantry
Page 16482
1 weapons used?
2 MR. MUNDIS: Objection, Mr. President, these questions do not
3 arise out of cross-examination.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. Present, I have
6 simply -- I am simply asking the questions around tanks, but throughout
7 the time the witness answering said that there was fighting of artillery
8 and infantry weapons when these elevations were taken or retaken in 1993.
9 In a sense that he is speaking about fighting, about the infantry and
10 infantry weapons, I believe that it is the right, absolute right of the
11 Defence to continue to question on this point so that we know where did
12 the firing go.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, as far as my recollection goes,
14 the Prosecution asked when the hills were taken, and I think that you
15 asked for further details in respect of the battle during which
16 the -- during which the hills were retaken by the forces of which
17 the -- in which the witness participated. So it does not arise out of
18 cross-examination. One question would not be, but it should not be
19 something really an issue that should be dealt with more extensively. So
20 if you had more questions in mind, I would like to ask you to move to your
21 next subject, and if it is just one or two questions, and I really mean
22 one or two questions, then please proceed.
23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] It won't be necessary,
24 Mr. President.
25 JUDGE ORIE: That means no further questions?
Page 16483
1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] That's right. That's what I
2 meant, yes.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I heard that you said "ce n'est pas la peine"
4 and it was not immediately clear to me that that meant that you had no
5 further questions. Judge Nieto-Navia has one or more questions to you,
6 Mr. DP18.
7 Questioned by the Court:
8 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Might the witness be shown the coloured map,
9 please. With the pointer would you please point to your positions on that
10 map.
11 A. My unit?
12 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Yes.
13 A. [Indicates]
14 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Now, would you please point to the positions
15 of the tank or of the tanks.
16 A. It is this hill, Kopisanj here.
17 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Please point to both positions again.
18 A. [Indicates]
19 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: That's the first one.
20 A. There is -- it is a very small area here, so it will be this small
21 circle here where this plateau was. Approximately, the plateau was about
22 3 to 400 metres large.
23 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: That was when? Which is the date of
24 the -- the date in which the BH Army was there?
25 A. They were not here. These were our positions.
Page 16484
1 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Please, point to the positions where the tanks
2 were, the tanks, the BH Army tanks were.
3 A. [Indicates]
4 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: That's different, yes. Thank you. No more
5 questions.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Since Judge El Mahdi and myself have no further
7 questions for you, this concludes your testimony in this court. Mr. DP18,
8 I thank you very much for coming the very long way to The Hague and for
9 answering all the questions of both parties and of the Bench and I wish
10 you a safe trip home again. Thank you.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Usher, can you please escort the witness out of
13 the courtroom.
14 [The witness withdrew]
15 [Trial Chamber confers]
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Far from me for wanting to
18 interrupt whatsoever, but it could happen that the witness arrives
19 somewhat belatedly, because the instructions that we gave to the competent
20 unit was based on the fact that we thought that the Prosecution would
21 continue for longer with the cross-examination. So if this is the case,
22 if the witness comes late, we apologise, but we didn't know.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We will first try to find out where the witness
24 is. But before doing so, perhaps we first deal with the documents in
25 respect of the Witness DP18. Madam Registrar.
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Page 16486
1 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit D1807, under seal, pseudonym sheet.
2 JUDGE ORIE: That document is admitted in evidence.
3 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
4 JUDGE ORIE: The witness has not yet arrived, but is expected to
5 arrive in a couple of minutes. Before we continue, I'd first like to go
6 into closed session -- private session.
7 [Private session]
8 [redacted]
9 [redacted]
10 [redacted]
11 [redacted]
12 [redacted]
13 [redacted]
14 [redacted]
15 [redacted]
16 [redacted]
17 [redacted]
18 [redacted]
19 [redacted]
20 [redacted]
21 [redacted]
22 [redacted]
23 [redacted]
24 [redacted]
25 [redacted]
Page 16487
1 [redacted]
2 [redacted]
3 [redacted]
4 [redacted]
5 [redacted]
6 [redacted]
7 [redacted]
8 [redacted]
9 [redacted]
10 [redacted]
11 [Open session]
12 JUDGE ORIE: May I make it clear to both you, Mr. Piletta-Zanin,
13 and to the Prosecution that the Chamber would certainly welcome whatever
14 proposal to have maps where the parties could agree upon. From your
15 beginning I take it that you have not reached such an agreement. Under
16 these circumstances, the Chamber would prefer to first listen to a party
17 that comes with a proposal, then hears the possible objection of the other
18 party, and not spend too much time on that. Because the Chamber has
19 received a lot of maps with or without objections, and finally, if the
20 parties cannot agree upon maps, then the Chamber will have to do it with
21 the maps that are tendered in evidence and are admitted into evidence.
22 And it's -- we could go on until January, February or March to discuss
23 maps. The Chamber, as I said before, would certainly welcome whatever
24 shared proposal by the parties, and otherwise the Chamber will hear what
25 the parties are offering, the Chamber will hear the objections and will
Page 16488
1 give a decision. That will be the following order. Yes.
2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. If I may
3 simply indicate what I wanted to say. My objection is of a strictly
4 methodological nature. We object first of all for the following reason:
5 The maps that the Prosecution wanted to tender a moment ago, are maps that
6 include new information, this is not cartographic information at all, it
7 is technical information which has nothing to do with the geography or
8 cartography and which would tend to introduce new information for your
9 Chamber which was never submitted to the Defence on the one side, and on
10 the other never to the witnesses.
11 Therefore, as far as the map itself is concerned to show it to
12 your Chamber as such would imply something that is not admissible because
13 it would be like tendering exhibits with additional information that was
14 never communicated to the Defence within the frameworks prescribed by the
15 Rules. And in that way one would, undercover, to put it that way,
16 introduce information that we don't need and as such, this is not
17 acceptable.
18 And that is the reason that we formulated our objection above all
19 for methodological reasons.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, you are telling us what is on
21 the map that has not been proposed to us. So in order to understand your
22 objection, I would and this Chamber would stick to the order, that is also
23 a matter of methodology, and that you first see what is proposed and
24 better understand what your objections are because we have no idea what
25 will be on those maps.
Page 16489
1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President --
2 JUDGE ORIE: We heard what you said before I said it. The
3 following order would be if one of the parties comes up with whatever
4 maps, we will see what it is we will hear the objections and then we will
5 then decide.
6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I would request
7 from your Chamber - I am sorry - that it render a decision to the effect
8 that if a map of whatever kind needs to be tendered -- is to be tendered
9 by the Prosecution, that it should not contain other information or
10 indication than information contained in other prior documents. And
11 certainly not tendentious additional information.
12 JUDGE ORIE: I will give a decision when the map has been tendered
13 when we have heard the parties about it. A general decision on what kind
14 of maps could and under whatever circumstances would be admitted would not
15 be a decision that the Chamber will take at this very moment.
16 Is there anything else you would like to raise?
17 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I am taking steps at the moment via
18 email to have the maps, that is the samples brought down to court
19 immediately. It may well be that I could start my submissions in a matter
20 of a minute or so. It may be in two parts. There may be some further
21 documents available by 11.00, but at least we could take advantage of the
22 available time to commence that procedure, if those maps arrive in the
23 next minute or so.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, we will wait one or two minutes, and if not we
25 will have a short break. Let's see what happens during the next two
Page 16490
1 minutes.
2 Mr. Ierace.
3 MR. IERACE: Excuse me, Mr. President.
4 [Prosecution counsel confer]
5 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, might I hand up some copies of a
6 document and provide one to the Defence as well. I trust that five will
7 be sufficient.
8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President --
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] -- At this stage I would like
11 to rephrase a formulation. That was not the map that we saw when we had
12 our discussion. I fully understand the embarrassment of the Prosecution,
13 but this is not that map.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, this is exactly the reason, Mr. Piletta-Zanin,
15 why the Chamber prefers first to see what maps are offered and then hear
16 any objections to it.
17 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, might I respond to that? I
18 specifically said to Mr. Piletta-Zanin yesterday that the map I handed him
19 then would not be the map that I would hand to the Trial Chamber this
20 morning.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Well, it was time available anyhow these few minutes.
22 So let's restart about the maps. Please proceed, Mr. -- Unless the
23 witness is already -- the witness has arrived. Perhaps you -- perhaps we
24 start with the maps so that we --
25 MR. IERACE: Yes, certainly, Mr. President.
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Page 16492
1 JUDGE ORIE: -- We know at least what we have to think about in
2 the near future.
3 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, the Office of the Prosecutor has
4 received some new software on the 6th of November 2002 which enables our
5 mapping people to produce a different map on the same information as is
6 contained in the sniping and shelling scheduled incident maps with a
7 projection that enables the use of a ruler to determine with precision the
8 distance between any two spots on the map.
9 Secondly, we are now able to produce maps with more visible
10 contours. This software was very expensive. I understand it to be in the
11 order of many thousands of dollars for one license alone. What I have
12 handed up is an example based on incidents 3 and 8 because evidence in the
13 last week or so has particularly focused on the part of Sarajevo which
14 concerns those two incidents.
15 Mr. President, there are now on this sample, two ways of measuring
16 distances between any two spots regardless of whether the line between the
17 two spots is horizontal, vertical or diagonal. That is, by referring to
18 the 100 metre delineation points on the horizontal and vertical axis, that
19 is the latitudinal and longitudinal lines, alternatively by using the
20 scale which appears at the bottom of the map.
21 In producing this projection, objects on the original maps are
22 elongated and so the circles indicating the suspected source of fire
23 become oval shaped. The black depictions of buildings become in some
24 cases perhaps longer or shorter. I emphasise that the change in shape of
25 those symbols does not effect lines of sight.
Page 16493
1 Mr. President, this software enables other steps to be taken in
2 relation to the same information. I do not propose at this stage to
3 tender that material unless the Trial Chamber wishes to understand more
4 about it. It may indeed well be that in case in rebuttal by the
5 Prosecution that we produce further maps, as a response to issues raised
6 for the first time by the Defence in the Defence case.
7 Mr. President, the software enables one to determine lines of
8 sight, in other words, to produce a -- it can be done in different ways,
9 firstly by producing a 3-D image of the topography, and then manipulating
10 that 3-D image on the screen. By the word "manipulation" I mean simply
11 turning it around so that it can be observed from different angles.
12 Secondly, lines of sight can be determined on this two-dimensional
13 depiction. In this particular example there are changes in the colours of
14 the lines of sight between green and red. Red indicates portions along
15 that line of sight that could not be seen. That depiction, of course,
16 assumes, has to make assumptions as to how high, if at all, above the
17 ground level the eyes are at the suspected source of fire. It makes no
18 allowance for vegetation. One can factor in a height at the suspected
19 source of fire, if, for instance, one assumes the person is standing or
20 wishes to see what the line of sight would be if a person was standing,
21 one could factor into the software a height for argument's sake 1 3/4
22 metres and then see what line of sight is produced.
23 Mr. President, at a later point, at 11.00, I will hand up an
24 example of that 3-D image, but I emphasise the purpose in doing so is
25 simply to acquaint the Trial Chamber the parameters of this new software
Page 16494
1 in terms of what is possible and what is not. Can I just add this: I am
2 concerned that in tendering these maps, if the tender is accepted, we will
3 not have the benefit of changes made to the, for instance, to the
4 confrontation lines by a number of witnesses in the -- some in the
5 Prosecution case, most in the Defence case. I respectfully submit that
6 the purpose to which these new maps could be put is if one regards the
7 maps already tendered as the primary exhibit, but wishes to supplement
8 that exhibit with information as to the precise distances between two
9 points, one could identify the two relevant points of the maps already
10 tendered, then go to these maps, locate the same two points, and then make
11 a measurement with confidence.
12 Thank you, Mr. President.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Before I give an opportunity to Mr. Piletta-Zanin to
14 answer, I would have two questions, Mr. Ierace. The first one would be,
15 is it possible on these maps to take out the confrontation lines?
16 MR. IERACE: Yes. As I understand it, it is. I can confirm that
17 by 11.00.
18 JUDGE ORIE: So that would mean that the -- what is on the map
19 then would just be, as you say, lines of sight, at least lines between two
20 different points. Then my next question would be: What is the basis for
21 the measuring of the height, because I see on these maps there are lines
22 that indicate that what elevation these lines are. Usually they go, I
23 take it from 50 metres, 50 metres up, 50 metres down. But, of course, if
24 I am in a position behind a rock of 12 metres high --
25 MR. IERACE: Yes.
Page 16495
1 JUDGE ORIE: -- I see would nothing as far as the lines on the map
2 are concerned, but nevertheless the rock could take my view.
3 MR. IERACE: Yes.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Could you explain to me how these I would say minor
5 details in the terrain are dealt with by this system?
6 MR. IERACE: Yes, Mr. President. As I understand it, the
7 buildings are incorporated so that if a building blocks a line of sight,
8 that is, a building which appears on the map symbolised, then that is
9 taken into account. The number of contours can be adjusted on the maps so
10 that one could see a large number of contours at a shorter distance in
11 altitude. I will give precise answers to those questions at 11.00, if
12 that is convenient.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but would these contours also include natural
14 features? I do understand that vegetation is not among them, but, for
15 example, the example I just gave, behind the rock of 10 meters high.
16 MR. IERACE: Yes, I would need to consult with the map people to
17 answer that question. Rather than indicate what I suspect to be a
18 situation, I prefer to consult first.
19 JUDGE ORIE: So, no final answer to that.
20 MR. IERACE: Yes.
21 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: I have a question. I have this map. This map
22 is the former map on the sniping incident number 3, the one that we had
23 before. The new one is taken from this one or from the original of this
24 one?
25 MR. IERACE: In a manner of speaking, Your Honour, the information
Page 16496
1 which was used to produce the earlier maps is used to produce this map
2 with a different projection, and in this particular case, indicating what
3 could be seen along those two lines of sight.
4 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: My question is because the confrontation lines
5 are not the same, as far as I can see. There is a difference.
6 MR. IERACE: Excuse me a minute, Your Honour.
7 JUDGE ORIE: To give you an example, the confrontation lines in
8 the area we are talking about never come as close as on this draft, on the
9 left-hand side of the draft, close to the 3 and 8 points. I never saw
10 them so close to each other and certainly not on the other map.
11 MR. IERACE: Yes, I will check that, Mr. President and Your
12 Honour, and I will respond to that at 11.00 if that is convenient.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
14 MR. IERACE: Thank you.
15 [Trial Chamber confers]
16 JUDGE EL MAHDI: Thank you, Mr. President.
17 [Interpretation] Mr. Ierace, could I ask you a question, please.
18 I was wondering about the map which is the original for all these maps.
19 Whom did it -- who published it, who made it, on what date, and is it the
20 only one available or rather several maps of the region?
21 MR. IERACE: Your Honour, I understand that the satellite imaging
22 which is entered into the software and which provides the topographical
23 information was recorded around 1997, 19 -- somewhere between 1996 and
24 1997. The other detail which appears in the maps such as streets and so
25 on, I understand comes from a map which was produced immediately following
Page 16497
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Page 16498
1 the war. Again, I will check that precise information by 11.00. Does
2 that answer your question, Your Honour?
3 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Yes, thank you very much. But I
4 would also have a question to put to Mr. Piletta-Zanin. I, of course, if
5 the President allows me. I am at your service.
6 JUDGE ORIE: [Interpretation] Do you think it is more useful to
7 ask Mr. Piletta-Zanin your question before I give him the chance to react
8 or whichever you prefer.
9 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] No, it hasn't got to do with
10 these maps, it has to do with the origins of the maps tendered by the
11 Defence.
12 JUDGE ORIE: [Interpretation] I also have some questions about
13 that. I would suggest that we give the floor to Mr. Piletta-Zanin to
14 react first and as we have additional questions we could put them to him
15 after his response.
16 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] As you wish, Mr. President.
17 JUDGE ORIE: [Interpretation] So, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, please, you
18 have the floor.
19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, with the
20 assistance of Madam Usher, I should like to place a document on the ELMO
21 that we received from the Prosecution. I am doing it because we only have
22 one copy and in that way we can all see it, if I have your permission.
23 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] I apologise. What I am asking
24 you as a question is the origins of your map --
25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I am sorry, I thought that
Page 16499
1 question would come later. Which map are you talking about?
2 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] The map of the army, the large
3 military map.
4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] The C2, I see. I am going to
5 consult with my colleague and ask him -- when you mean "origin," you mean
6 you wish to know who published it, the same question addressed to the
7 Prosecution.
8 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Yes, who and how and as regards
9 the authenticity as well.
10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you for your question,
11 Your Honour. The answer that we can give you at present is the following:
12 It appears, but I underline, it appears that these maps are of the General
13 Staff maps, which mean that they were produced by the General Staff
14 machinery, on what technical basis I can't tell you now, and we will
15 consider that matter and see what other purely technical information we
16 can provide you with regarding the date the map was produced, for
17 instance, then the scientific entity, that is, the author of the map, et
18 cetera, but this is information I am unable to give you offhand now.
19 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, with the
21 assistance of Madam Usher, could you please place on the ELMO this
22 document.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please.
24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I don't know where the colour
25 can be seen well on this reproduction, Mr. President, but we can see very
Page 16500
1 well on this document that represents the same zone as the other map. We
2 can see very well that on this map the red line is far longer than the
3 green line, and I would be grateful to the usher if she could point with
4 her finger the end of the red line, please because we will see it better
5 if you point it out to us. Thank you very much. And the other line.
6 Thank you.
7 So it is now clear for everyone --
8 JUDGE ORIE: Before we continue, I'd like to ask the usher to zoom
9 in on the circles on the top because on the screen I see a totally
10 different colour, and I do not see the numbers 3 and 8 appear. So I am
11 not quite sure that we are looking to the same map as has been handed out
12 to us. Could we please see -- I see some two blue ovals at the left top
13 corner without any numbers in it, whereas I received a document which says
14 "draft" and which has two red ovals with the numbers 3 and 8 in it. So,
15 therefore, I would very much like to know that everyone has been handed
16 out the same -- I am just -- yes, please proceed.
17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, we have here a
18 map of the same area. We can recognise the same hills to the right. They
19 were -- this is the map tendered by the Prosecution --
20 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction. On the right there
21 are orchards.
22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] And they concern the same
23 incidents, that is incidents 3 and 8, which can be seen at the bottom of
24 the map, and we will see that later. What we see is that the red lines in
25 this first version are much, considerably longer than the red lines in the
Page 16501
1 other document.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, the Prosecution gives another map,
3 and to tell the Chamber that you could produce -- that they have handed
4 out to you yesterday other maps, the Chamber has to concentrate on what it
5 is presented with.
6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, indeed.
7 JUDGE ORIE: I do understand that if I ask whether the
8 confrontation lines could be taken out, I take it that you could change
9 whatever you would like to change in this map. So that the -- I think the
10 Chamber is fully aware that changing the data, changing the colours,
11 changing the lines, that you could produce many maps, and the Chamber will
12 have to consider whether the map presented by the Prosecution or a map
13 presented by the Defence would be an acceptable document to work with.
14 So there is, at this moment, as far as I am concerned, I can't
15 imagine that you would even move the orchards on maps so there is no need
16 to explain on these kinds of documents you could easily change
17 things -- yes.
18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, what I want to
19 say is that there is a considerable difference between the methodology
20 used before and the methodology used now. Because before we only had the
21 theoretical line, theoretical line of fire, that's it. Now, today, what
22 we are being proposed is the result of brand new software that would
23 enable us not to have the theoretical line, but the witness or the person
24 there would have seen. So what is happening is the Prosecution, they can
25 enlarge that red area as much as they like, and that is the new element
Page 16502
1 against which we object. Because it is sufficient to say, we can say from
2 2 metres high, we can see everything, for instance. And the confrontation
3 of these two images show us very well, what is the danger of wanting to
4 apply computerisation at any price in this trial, in this case. And this
5 is our main objection. We cannot accept that the computerisation is
6 trying people, even if it is in the 21st century.
7 Mr. President, the second part which I wish to enlarge upon, is
8 that this map is more visible in its longitude and its latitude. That
9 means that we can also work with the diagonal. But what I do know is that
10 it was perfectly capable to obtain such a map much before the testimony of
11 the witnesses and we know that a system was applied as from 1996 and 1997.
12 And what I do not understand is why they did not wish to have -- to
13 produce such a map so that the witnesses can have a look at it, rather
14 than having them lose their bearings. And in spite of the position of the
15 Defence from the very start we said we will not be able to work this map,
16 and we were told a lot of things about equator and such like. And finally
17 we have got a map which is a little more visible, but this should have
18 been done beforehand rather than now, producing maps on which witnesses
19 will not be able to give information because they didn't have the
20 necessary information. Thank you.
21 Because they didn't want to be given -- they didn't want to give
22 them the right information.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that's an allegation which -- may I first ask
24 the -- Mr. Ierace, the map as it is shown to us now, that means without
25 stretching on either the longitudinal or the other direction, could that
Page 16503
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Page 16504
1 technically be done before? Could that -- yes.
2 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, the -- in terms of the software that
3 the OTP has, it could not practically have been done until the 6th of
4 November. I am told that we received an intermediate update of the
5 software approximately nine months ago, but for various technical reasons,
6 we didn't have the ability to properly produce a map with the corrected
7 projections, if you like, to enable a measurement.
8 JUDGE ORIE: So, then do I understand that when Mr. Piletta-Zanin
9 asks you why you did not produce it, but why you did not wish to produce
10 it, the leading element in that question, that is the assumption that you
11 did not wish to do it, that you reject it.
12 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I absolutely reject that. Before the
13 Prosecution case began, we did everything we could to come up with maps
14 that were legible in the sense of with contours that could easily be seen
15 with distances that could easily be measured. And that was the best we
16 could do at that stage. As soon as I learned of this software which
17 happily coincided with the expression of the Trial Chamber of some
18 concerns about the ability to measure distances, I took steps to see what
19 could be done with it produce maps such as what we now have. This is
20 effectively hot off the press.
21 Mr. President, in relation to the discrepancy that
22 Mr. Piletta-Zanin points out between the sample I gave him yesterday and
23 the draft today, that is explicable by where one places the suspected
24 source of fire with absolute precision. The one yesterday had that source
25 of fire placed roughly in the centre of the circle or oval now, and this
Page 16505
1 shows the view from the edge. I would like to see these maps with the
2 circle shaded area, now an oval shaded area, transparent so that one can
3 see the contours and the terrain beneath it. And it demonstrates the
4 sensitivity of the software to changes in the topography depending on
5 where the person is, and what distance they are above the ground. And I
6 am happy to provide the Trial Chamber with the relevant information which
7 led to the map yesterday, as well as the map -- the information which
8 leads to the lines of sight in this map.
9 Might I just emphasise, Mr. President: At this stage it seems to
10 me the important features are the ability to measure distances between two
11 points and the more visible contour lines. As to lines of sight, what can
12 be seen and can't be seen, Prosecution laid evidence in its case by way of
13 photographs and eyewitness evidence as to lines of sight. The Defence has
14 raised some further issues for the first time, such as the height of trees
15 and orchards, and the Prosecution reserves its right to respond to issues
16 raised for the first time in case in rebuttal, and that includes lines of
17 sight. Thank you.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, very briefly.
20 I have the impression --
21 JUDGE ORIE: One moment, please.
22 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
23 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. I
25 have the impression that the Prosecution didn't really respond to the
Page 16506
1 Defence in a sense that the question asked was to find out, and this is
2 what the Defence would like to know, to know whether this software is
3 extremely sensitive, whether this software existed at the time when the
4 problems already appeared with these maps, at the time of the Prosecution
5 case, that is, there are many months from that now. And the Defence
6 believes that such software existed at the time of that case, and I think
7 we've had the confirmation of that by the Prosecution. At the time when
8 the problems appeared, they should have been resolved and not at the time
9 of the Defence case.
10 And we maintain that in a way our rights have been offended
11 because it is very hard to work with the witnesses on these maps when they
12 don't recognise the locations any more or areas that have been distorted
13 in reality on the layout of the map. Thank you.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Is it the position of the Defence that you
15 should always provide the most updated material you have?
16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No, Mr. President. The
17 position of the Defence is that one shouldn't always produce documents
18 that are erroneous, and what we are saying is that these maps are
19 erroneous and we can see now, and we are reiterating, it is not about
20 using high technology, it is about having things presented in a clear way.
21 And to have given just an ordinary map would have been a lot simpler and
22 would have been a lot less costly for the international community, and
23 really I think this should be a very large effort, a considerable effort
24 being made here.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, your argument is clear. We will hear further
Page 16507
1 details from Mr. Ierace later today. Madam Usher, can you please escort
2 the witness into the courtroom.
3 [The witness entered court]
4 JUDGE ORIE: Can you hear me in a language you understand?
5 THE WITNESS: [No interpretation].
6 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Mr. DP16, because we will call you
7 DP16, since protective measures have been granted in respect to you. That
8 means we will not say your name and your face cannot be seen apart from in
9 this courtroom by ourselves.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning. Good morning to you,
11 and I thank you.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. DP16, before giving testimony in this court, the
13 Rules of Procedure and Evidence require you to make a solemn declaration
14 that you will speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.
15 The text of this solemn declaration will be handed out to you now by the
16 usher. May I invite you to make that solemn declaration.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You mean aloud?
18 JUDGE ORIE: Aloud, yes, please.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
20 the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.
21 WITNESS: WITNESS DP16
22 [Witness answered through interpreter]
23 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much. Please be seated, Mr. DP16.
24 You will first be examined by counsel for the Defence.
25 Examined by Mr. Piletta-Zanin:
Page 16508
1 Q. [Interpretation] Witness, good morning.
2 A. Good morning.
3 Q. First of all, with the assistance of the usher, I am going to hand
4 you a piece of paper and if you could please have a look at it, read it
5 and if the information contained on this sheet of paper is correct, just
6 confirm that that is the case, just say yes, if that's not the case, then
7 say no.
8 A. Yes, they're correct.
9 Q. Thank you very much.
10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, in the sense
11 that we would like to ask some questions of situations and personal
12 details --
13 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous interpretation continues]... private
14 session.
15 [Private session]
16 [redacted]
17 [redacted]
18 [redacted]
19 [redacted]
20 [redacted]
21 [redacted]
22 [redacted]
23 [redacted]
24 [redacted]
25 [redacted]
Page 16509
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Page 16511
1 [redacted]
2 [redacted]
3 [redacted]
4 [redacted]
5 [redacted]
6 [redacted]
7 [redacted]
8 [redacted]
9 [redacted]
10 [redacted]
11 [Open session]
12 JUDGE ORIE: Since we are in open session, you may proceed,
13 Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
15 Q. Witness, please bear in mind what I told you earlier. If you may
16 give any information, stop and ask if we can go to another form of
17 session. Thank you.
18 Witness, where were you exactly in the spring of 1992, what memory
19 do you have of that period of time?
20 A. Spring 1992. You probably mean the very beginning of armed
21 conflict or just before that.
22 Q. Yes, very much so. I am talking about the period that was just
23 before the breakout of the conflict, and then of course that period
24 itself.
25 A. When we are talking about this problem, then we should start with
Page 16512
1 the month of March 1992, that is from the period of the first barricades
2 in the city of Sarajevo. I was, throughout that period, in Sarajevo, but
3 most of the time, of course, together with my family near the place where
4 I lived.
5 Q. Thank you. What happened to you from the moment when things
6 started to get worse following the barricades that you mentioned?
7 A. The barricades lasted, I think, two days and two nights, that is,
8 the beginning of March. And I believe that the purpose of the barricades
9 was to make the leadership of Bosnia-Herzegovina more serious so that they
10 shouldn't make any mistakes. There was a kind of self-organisation that
11 happened of certain groups of people and nations in the city of Sarajevo.
12 That's what it looked like in reality.
13 Q. Thank you. Witness, you spoke about self-organisation, can you
14 tell us more about this self-organisation? What do you mean by that?
15 A. That really demands for an explanation and not really to state the
16 fact itself. To state the fact itself, that is to say that we, and I now
17 represent just part of the Serbs, only part of the Serbs who lived in the
18 territory where I lived, and part of the Muslims who lived in our
19 immediate vicinity. We were --
20 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I object to that. I ask that that be
21 redacted. The witness doesn't speak for part of the Serbs or part of the
22 Muslims, but for himself.
23 JUDGE ORIE: I do understand your answer to be that you did not
24 feel -- that you did not have the same feelings and thoughts as you
25 consider all the Serbs would have. Is that how I have to understand your
Page 16513
1 answer?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In principle, yes.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I believe that the witness can
5 proceed.
6 Q. Please, Witness, proceed with what you were going to say.
7 A. On the ground things happened as follows: We, the Serbs, and
8 Muslims who were in our immediate vicinity in the location where I lived
9 in a self-organised manner had put up these barricades. And at some part
10 of these barricades we had a joint guard, that is, the joint barricade,
11 which was supposed to represent security for both sides.
12 Q. Very well. Thank you. Could you just give us some information,
13 not about the barricades themselves, but on the way that the idea appeared
14 to put up, to erect, these protective measures? Initially, how did
15 that -- where did this idea come from to proceed to this self-protection?
16 A. Well, you see, we were all neighbours after all, and this very
17 term "neighbour" is very strong in Bosnia-Herzegovina and has meaning.
18 And this protection that I mentioned earlier, that is the joint barricade,
19 was evidence itself for ordinary people, that is, for women and children,
20 for the elderly, and for the people who were not willing to participate in
21 any kind of intense clashes. And that was proof about the possibility of
22 resolving a problem differently.
23 Q. Very well. But that is the fact of the barricade. But the
24 decision-making process itself, and perhaps I am addressing you as
25 philosopher, how did that happen? How did this idea -- how was this idea
Page 16514
1 born in the spirit of the people?
2 A. You mean self-organisation or the barricades themselves?
3 Q. I mean the self-organisation.
4 A. In Bosnia-Herzegovina, all of us and particularly in Sarajevo,
5 Sarajevo was a political for of Bosnia-Herzegovina, we were all more or
6 less forced to follow political events in the immediate vicinity, and also
7 wider and further afield in the -- throughout the former Yugoslavia. We
8 were aware, we were conscious that something bad was going to happen. And
9 this organisation was the result of the bad politics of some politicians
10 that I wouldn't name individually. But in relation to the organisation of
11 that part of the State of Bosnia-Herzegovina, at that time the Republic of
12 Bosnia-Herzegovina, that part composed of Serbs. I would put this
13 different, from a historical point of view, I can state the fact that all
14 the peoples who lived in that part of the Balkans, in my opinion, in some
15 way have the pressure of history from the bad side, which is, in my
16 opinion again, one of the key reasons why the self-organisation happened
17 on the level of defence from the neighbour.
18 Q. Thank you very much. You spoke about -- you spoke about
19 self-organisation, to start with, and then you spoke about
20 self-protection. Now, I would like to suggest that after the break --
21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Because Mr. President, it
22 seems to me that it is time for the break --
23 Q. That you tell us about the second part of the question.
24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I believe that
25 it is now time to have a break.
Page 16515
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Page 16516
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, we will adjourn until 11.00.
2 --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.
3 --- On resuming at 11.04 a.m.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, I think we should first continue with the
5 witness, perhaps, for a while because so many interruptions is not good
6 for a witness. And I think it is not of vital importance that we hear
7 your information on the maps right now, but we could hear it at a later
8 stage today.
9 Madam Usher, would you please escort the witness into the
10 courtroom.
11 [The witness entered court]
12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, please proceed.
13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
14 Q. Witness, you spoke to us about self-organisation before the break,
15 on the one hand, and at the same time you spoke about self-defence. So my
16 question is self-defence against whom?
17 A. If there is self-organisation by a group of people, then it was
18 done precisely for the purpose of self-defence against another group of
19 people which, in this case, conditionally speaking were Muslims. But why
20 am I saying "conditionally"? Because at that point in time there was the
21 Territorial Defence consisting only of one group of people in Sarajevo.
22 We are aware of the fact that the absolute majority were Muslims, and I am
23 also aware and I can testify under oath in my personal name that within
24 our group the majority were Serbs, but they were not all Serbs.
25 And that is what the self-defence was like. There were certain
Page 16517
1 parts of the city of Sarajevo in which certain people dominated as being
2 the majority population in that area. And that is how those self-defence
3 groups were formed.
4 Q. Thank you very much. Witness, you mentioned this distinction
5 between Serbs on the one hand and the Muslims on the other. During the
6 period you are describing, that is, the period immediately preceding the
7 beginning of the armed conflict, what did you see in the streets that
8 would be of interest to this Chamber? I am referring specifically
9 regarding the activities and organisation of the part called the Muslim
10 part or the Muslim side.
11 A. What is of interest and what was conspicuous to all the citizens
12 of Sarajevo was the emergence of the so-called Green Berets.
13 Q. Let me stop you there. In two words, will you tell us what the
14 Green Berets were, and above all, when they appeared, as far as you can
15 recollect?
16 A. A Green Beret is a green military cap worn by a certain group of
17 people, and later on it became a military formation called the
18 Green Berets, and as far as I can remember, they appeared in the streets
19 of Sarajevo at the end of 1991.
20 Q. When they appeared in the streets of all Sarajevo, were they
21 organised in groups or did they appear individually?
22 A. Usually in town I would see them individually in the streets, in
23 the trams, trolley buses, buses, but as an organisation I noticed them
24 when I went to Television Sarajevo to appear as a guest in one of their
25 programmes. They examined my ID documents and they engaged in the
Page 16518
1 security affairs which until then was done by the regular police that we
2 would see every day.
3 Q. Witness, can you tell us when this happened, this particular event
4 that you are referring to?
5 A. This event occurred in March 1992.
6 Q. When exactly, at the beginning, in the middle?
7 A. At the beginning.
8 Q. And where exactly did this occur? You said that you went to the
9 television building. Was it on the premises, on the way there, at the
10 entrance, could you be more precise, please?
11 A. Like all Security Services they were at the entrance to the
12 Sarajevo television building.
13 Q. Thank you. And did you have the feeling that these people were a
14 part of the institution, the television itself; yes or no?
15 A. No.
16 Q. How would these people tolerated by such an institution because
17 after all, the people in the institution knew them, if you know, of
18 course.
19 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I object to leading and the question
20 in any event is inappropriately addressed to this witness because it seeks
21 a comment as to the attitude of the institution.
22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No, Mr. President. If I may
23 respond. He did not comment on the attitude of the institution -- I
24 didn't comment on it. I just asked the witness whether --
25 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous interpretation continues]... different way.
Page 16519
1 Do you know anything about the television institute, whether they agreed
2 with the presence of these people next to the building?
3 A. I can give you a negative answer, but I would like to add a
4 sentence, if I may.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, so you say you do not know anything about it,
6 but you would like to add a sentence. Please add that sentence.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said that they looked the same as
8 any security service in certain institutions. Up to then it would be the
9 police wearing regular police uniforms which we had come to be accustomed
10 to. This time they were wearing different uniforms, green military
11 uniforms, not the uniforms of the police. And the others were not
12 present.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Did you notice that the security was provided by
14 different people from what you experienced before, but you do not have any
15 knowledge as to whether the television institute would have agreed with
16 their presence or not?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I agree with what you have just
18 said.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you.
21 Q. Witness, you spoke about green uniforms. Was there anything else
22 in addition to those uniforms that this group called the Green Berets were
23 wearing?
24 A. In the streets I didn't see them carrying any weapons.
25 Q. In the streets. In any other places apart from the streets, did
Page 16520
1 you see anything?
2 A. Only in this particular place that I went to visit, that is the
3 television building, they did have pistols.
4 Q. You were saying that you went there yourself. Did you go there on
5 more than one occasion?
6 A. Yes, I went on several occasions.
7 Q. Thank you. Witness, I should now like you to tell us how -- no, I
8 withdraw that.
9 Could you please tell us what you personally did at the time the
10 armed conflict in Sarajevo started?
11 A. I had a private company which --
12 Q. No, no. I will stop you there. I don't wish you to give us such
13 identifying information, and on the other hand, that was not my question.
14 At the moment the time the war broke out in Sarajevo did you take part in
15 it, that is my first question; yes or no?
16 A. If you are talking about the war that went on from 1992 to 1995,
17 the answer is yes.
18 Q. Thank you very much. Where were you stationed and during which
19 period?
20 A. Throughout the time of the war I was at Grbavica, that is where I
21 was stationed.
22 Q. Thank you very much. Could you tell us with greater precision
23 what part of the line did you defend in those days?
24 A. My group of men was positioned at the Jewish cemetery.
25 Q. Very well. You will certainly be asked to draw those positions,
Page 16521
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Page 16522
1 but since you are talking about the Jewish cemetery, I have several
2 questions for you. Do you know whether there was any construction at the
3 bottom of the Jewish cemetery? Was there a building there?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Thank you. Could you tell us what type of building it was?
6 A. There was a chapel.
7 Q. And this chapel, was it within the cemetery walls; yes or no?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Thank you. Do you know, Witness, whether this chapel, as you call
10 it, was - and if so during which period - in the hands of one of the
11 conflicting parties in this area; yes or no?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Could you tell us which side held control of this chapel and for
14 what period of time?
15 A. For the duration of the war it was held by the Muslim party.
16 Q. How do you know this? How are you able to assert that in this
17 Chamber?
18 A. I looked at it with my own eyes throughout the war.
19 Q. Did you see during the duration of the war soldiers of the BH Army
20 entering, leaving the building or occupying that building?
21 A. Whatever you have mentioned, I would see during the war and
22 something else that you did not mention, and that is that they opened fire
23 from it.
24 Q. When you say that they opened fire from it, was this occasional or
25 something that happened frequently or very frequently? What could you
Page 16523
1 tell us?
2 A. Certainly it was very frequent.
3 Q. And what type of weapons were used?
4 A. Infantry weapons.
5 Q. What was the direction or directions in which fire was opened?
6 A. Towards the positions -- the positions of the group of people I
7 belonged to were west of the Jewish cemetery, so the direction was towards
8 the west.
9 Q. Did you return fire?
10 A. As frequently as they opened it.
11 Q. And as you were a soldier during the time of the war, did you ever
12 receive instructions, Witness, from the military structures regarding:
13 One, the opening of fire; and two, the problem or the question of
14 respecting the rights of the civilian population?
15 A. We received orders from the high command through our commander,
16 that is, our immediate superiors in relation to us ordinary soldiers. And
17 all these orders boiled down to economising with the ammunition and
18 absolute respect of the civilian population.
19 Q. Thank you. To make things even more clear, could you tell us in
20 general terms what was your military training?
21 A. I personally did not serve, do my military service in the
22 Yugoslav People's Army, so that I have no military experience. I had no
23 military experience prior to this.
24 Q. Thank you. Witness, you mentioned the instructions you received.
25 I would like you to tell us the frequency with which those instructions
Page 16524
1 were conveyed to you?
2 A. In any case, every time when we had to go and fetch fresh
3 ammunition, and sometimes with greater frequency.
4 Q. But I am also talking about the protection of the civilian
5 population when opening fire.
6 A. Could you be clearer, please.
7 Q. I am -- I had asked you about economy with the ammunition and you
8 answered that question. The second aspect had to do with instructions
9 given you regarding the necessary attention that should be paid to the
10 civilian population, in other words, the protection of civilians during
11 combat.
12 What was the incidence with which such instructions were given to
13 you? I am no longer talking about ammunition, but about the protection of
14 the civilian population.
15 A. Those types of instructions were very frequent, but I must observe
16 that the civilian population could not be seen by us in the immediate
17 vicinity of the separation lines.
18 Q. Thank you very much, Witness. Could you tell us what your company
19 was and your unit were, your companies and units?
20 A. In the first stage of the war, it was a 3rd company of the 3rd
21 Battalion, and in the last stages of the war, my company changed and in
22 the same battalion I was a member of the Novo Sarajevo Chetnik detachment
23 which was a separate detachment, a separate company of that same
24 detachment.
25 Q. Very well. But still in the same position?
Page 16525
1 A. I, personally, was not in the same position, but the zone of
2 responsibility was the same.
3 Q. Thank you very much. Witness, before we ask you to point to the
4 front lines on a map that will be shown to you, will you please answer
5 this question: I am not speaking strictly about the front line, but
6 rather of the depth of the line, that is, the technical depth, that is
7 various services, the supplies, and the command areas. According to your
8 experience, what were the depths of the front lines in the broader sense
9 of the word?
10 A. This is a question that it will be difficult to answer correctly,
11 but if I am talking about Grbavica as a part of the territory of the city
12 of Sarajevo which during the war was held by the Serbs, there was no depth
13 virtually, though large -- an enormous number of the civilian inhabitants,
14 and I am referring to women, children and the elderly, stayed on to live
15 in that area. But one could conditionally speak of the depth between the
16 front lines of roughly one -- behind the front lines of roughly 100
17 metres.
18 Q. Witness, where was the headquarters of the battalion, what was the
19 distance between it and the closest front line?
20 A. The command of my battalion was roughly 1 kilometre away.
21 Q. Thank you very much. And also, could you tell us what was the
22 distance between the closest front line and the command of the company
23 this time, your company command headquarters?
24 A. Then the distance would be only a few dozen metres.
25 Q. Thank you very much. Witness, I will now show you a map with the
Page 16526
1 assistance of the usher.
2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] And I should like to point out
3 that we didn't have a sufficiently long piece of paper to copy everything
4 that we wanted to copy, and that is why some maps could not be copied.
5 Q. Witness, do you recognise the map being shown to you and placed on
6 the ELMO; yes or no?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Thank you. Witness, will you please take note of two things that
9 are noted: First of all, not to write anything on the map unless you are
10 asked to do so; and secondly, when the Defence asks you to write things,
11 to do so with a black pen and never with a blue one.
12 Witness, could you find on this map the places where you were
13 stationed as a soldier during the events?
14 A. [Indicates]
15 Q. Thank you.
16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] The witness is pointing to an
17 area situated slightly to the right of the word "Grbavica" that we can see
18 on the map, south of the Miljacka river.
19 Q. Witness, my question now has to do with the other riverbank. On
20 the other side of the river, were there cultural monuments or religious
21 monuments of importance, such as, for instance, mosques; yes or no?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. I didn't hear your answer, Witness, I am sorry. Could the
24 microphone be placed closer to you, perhaps?
25 A. Yes.
Page 16527
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Page 16528
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, just for the transcript, where the
2 witness pointed and where you said it was right of the word "Grbavica," I
3 would say that it was approximately in the area where the -- between the
4 streets indicated by Luka Teli and Travnicka on the map close to an area
5 where some symbols as to -- at least close to a small green area. Please
6 proceed.
7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
8 Q. Witness, you answered "yes" but could you please repeat your
9 answer, whether religious monuments, cultural or religious monuments were
10 on the other side facing you.
11 A. You said across the Miljacka river.
12 Q. Indeed.
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Thank you very much. Witness, could you please pick up a pen and
15 indicate, for instance, if there were any, could you tell us where were
16 the museums that were right facing your positions, and since I was also
17 speaking about religious facilities, the mosques.
18 First of all, museums.
19 A. From this position where I was --
20 Q. Just simply opposite Grbavica, what were the museums? I think
21 that it is possible to distinguish them, to find them on this map. Could
22 you please just put a circle around that point.
23 A. Here was the national museum.
24 Q. Very well. You circled two facilities. Is that the same -- the
25 same facility in reality? We see two "M's on the map, is there one museum
Page 16529
1 or is there two museums?
2 A. These are two museum, one is national, and one is the revolution
3 museum which is the museum which was made as to memory -- in memory of the
4 Second World War.
5 Q. Could you please just put a number 1 and a number 2 there?
6 A. [Marks]
7 Q. Could you please point to a mark which is opposite of Grbavica
8 also on the same area visible on this map.
9 A. First of all, what's visible is the Catholic church.
10 Q. Very well. Can you please mark the Catholic church also. Could
11 you put number "3" there. And then I'd ask you to mark a mosque which is
12 in this area, if there were any.
13 A. Yes, there was -- perhaps I am going to make a mistake, because it
14 is not visible from the positions, but its location was here.
15 Q. Very well, thank you. I know that you don't have military
16 experience or not very long military experience, but do you know if one or
17 more of these objects or these facilities could be hit by indirect hits,
18 that is, by mortar fire? This is a hypothetical question. I am not
19 saying that you targeted these facilities, but it is -- was it possible to
20 hit these facilities with mortars, with mortar fire; yes or no?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Thank you.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace.
24 MR. IERACE: The transcript does not reflect that the witness
25 circled the mosque. Perhaps the circle could be marked with a number so
Page 16530
1 that it can be correlated to the transcript.
2 JUDGE ORIE: I suggest we take number "4."
3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I apologise and I thank the
4 Prosecution for pointing it out.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Please put a "4" to where you circled the mosque.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did mark number "4."
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but -- yes, please proceed, then. That does not
8 appear in the transcript, so --
9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I withdraw my thanks to the
10 Prosecution, Mr. President.
11 Q. Now, Witness --
12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No, no, that was just
13 uncourtesy. You would have understood, yes. Yes, I take note.
14 Q. Witness, my question is the following, you answered yes, it was
15 possible theoretically and technically speaking, it was possible to hit
16 with indirect fire these facilities. And in relation to number 4, and it
17 is also valid for the 3, the 2 and the 1, also, did you ever receive any
18 instructions, any orders from your military hierarchy, from your
19 superiors, to target in any way possible one of the four of these
20 facilities; yes or no?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Thank you. Have you ever received instructions, orders, from your
23 military superiors that would have made you target similar facilities?
24 A. No.
25 Q. Thank you very much. Now, Witness, could you please now take time
Page 16531
1 and draw, if you can, the confrontation line as you have known it, but
2 first of all, could you please point to it with a pointer so that we can
3 avoid a possibility of an error. Take -- could you please pick up the
4 pointer and point to where you think the line went and then you can mark
5 it with a black pen. And perhaps just to make this task simpler, Witness,
6 Witness, Witness? Witness? Witness?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. I am sorry. Could you also please give the names of the streets
9 so that we can later on find them in the transcript. Thank you.
10 A. I will start with the Serbian part which goes from this hill
11 called Zlatiste, and the line went below this yellow road. And here there
12 is a hill called Staro Brdo, and then the line went this way, turned this
13 way, and here this empty space is the so-called Debelo Brdo, and the line
14 then went down to the top of Travnicka Street and it followed the 315,
15 that's number 315, and then it followed the wall of the Jewish cemetery.
16 This street called, now called wrongly because these are the postwar
17 street names, probably before the war the street was called
18 Nevesinjska Street and this street went to the bottom of the Jewish
19 cemetery and then up to number 397, which is the continuation of the
20 Travnicka Street and then following the yellow road, so-called transit
21 road at the time of the war it was empty, deserted, there were no trenches
22 there but the trench went below the road. The ground is sloping downwards
23 here towards the Miljacka river and then the line went along Ljubljanska
24 Street that you can see here, and then it followed the line 409 which is
25 Trnovska Street, that's its old street and then down there there was a
Page 16532
1 Beogradska Street where there was a famous red building, and at number,
2 somewhere near 533 that we can see on the map, that's where the building
3 was where the bank, the economy bank of Sarajevo was located, and that was
4 the last trench on the Miljacka river.
5 Q. Thank you very much. Can you please now pick up a pen and can you
6 just go back and follow this itinerary on the map.
7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] And I should like Madam Usher
8 if she could zoom it on this route, please.
9 THE WITNESS: [Marks]
10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]
11 Q. Thank you, Witness. In relation to this line that you drew, I
12 would be grateful if you could now place a cross and a number "5" at the
13 point that you previously called the chapel, please. The chapel.
14 A. [Marks]
15 Q. Thank you very much. And since we are speaking about the enemy
16 lines, could you please draw but with a dotted line, not with a full line,
17 the positions of the opposing side, of the enemy side in this area,
18 please.
19 A. [Marks]
20 Q. Thank you, Witness. I can see that you have established the first
21 pocket. But does it mean that there was a problem, a mistake, with this
22 pocket or was there some kind of a network of the trenches and sort of
23 intersection? Did you understand the question?
24 A. Yes, precisely here. Yes, you are probably speaking about this
25 part.
Page 16533
1 Q. Yes, that's correct.
2 A. For the moment I just forgot that above the Jewish cemetery,
3 that's the famous Debelo Brdo, where the Muslim units had created a pocket
4 with the system of trenches -- with the communication trenches, and here,
5 below here, it says Staro Brdo, but in fact it was Zlatiste, there was
6 also a pocket here where they had very strong sniper strongholds.
7 Q. Thank you very much, Witness. You spoke to us about a hill which
8 is called Debelo Brdo. Now, as this name suggests, this was a point that
9 was higher than your positions, I am speaking about Debelo Brdo.
10 A. Yes, yes.
11 Q. Thank you. You spoke about that the opposing side had weapons on
12 that hill. What kind of weapons did the opposing side have on that hill?
13 A. In any case, these were infantry weapons with the reservation that
14 in that pocket that is at the very end of it, end point, there was a very
15 strong sniper nest, what kind of weapon it is exactly, I don't know.
16 Q. Very well, on this hill was there anything else that was located
17 there, apart from the infantry weapons? Was there anything else on
18 Debelo Brdo?
19 A. On Debelo Brdo, no.
20 Q. Thank you very much. Were there positions with heavy weapons,
21 with types of heavy weapons in that area, and I am talking about the enemy
22 positions on the enemy side.
23 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I do object to leading on any of this.
24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well. I will rephrase.
25 Q. Witness -- no, I will rephrase.
Page 16534
1 You said that you -- there was firing on you from the direction of
2 the famous chapel. Do you remember you said that?
3 A. I do.
4 Q. Thank you. Was this the only place from which you were fired at;
5 yes or no?
6 A. No. No.
7 Q. So there were other locations?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Thank you. Can you tell us with which weapons were you targeted;
10 yes or no?
11 A. From all kinds of weapons that is used in war, fire was opened on
12 my lines.
13 Q. Very well. Specifically speaking, there, this location during
14 that period, what type of weapons are you speaking about?
15 A. All types of shells that were at the disposal of the -- disposal
16 of the Army of the then Yugoslavia, they were at the disposal of the
17 BH Army and those shells were falling on our lines.
18 Q. Very well. You are speaking about the shells. But as far as
19 direct targeting is concerned, not indirect targeting, what kind of
20 weapons were used?
21 A. In any case, all calibres from 556 to 12.7.
22 Q. Thank you very much. Starting from which calibre do we consider a
23 weapon "heavy weapon" do you know?
24 A. As far as I know, from 12.7.
25 Q. Thank you very much. What was the heavy weapon used, because you
Page 16535
1 said 12.7?
2 A. Its abbreviation, it's Pat, that is anti-aircraft gun or cannon.
3 Q. Thank you very much. Since you came under fire, that kind of
4 fire, I conclude that this fire was fired open from these Pat guns, and
5 this was used in horizontal mode or as we call it, the ground mode.
6 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I do object to leading.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, you are giving all details you
8 expect from the answer. That's not --
9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well.
10 JUDGE ORIE: So would you please --
11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well, Mr. President.
12 Indeed, but I was trying to save time, considering that the witness said
13 that he was fired at, and he was fired at with an anti-aircraft gun, and
14 if he was not up in the air, then it is very likely that he was fired at
15 in ground mode. So that is what I was trying to find out. So I have to
16 find out differently now.
17 Q. Witness, how do you explain that you were fired at with an
18 anti-aircraft gun, although you were not up in the air? Could you please
19 answer?
20 A. This war that went on in Bosnia-Herzegovina is probably one of the
21 very characteristic wars, the way that it was fought, and that's the only
22 way that I can interpret this, except that I would just like to make a
23 slight correction as to the abbreviation that I said for 12.7. It is not
24 a Pat, but it is a Pam, that is an anti-aircraft machine gun, although Pat
25 was also used in -- for ground combat.
Page 16536
1 Q. Very well. How was this Pam, the anti-aircraft gun, used
2 considering that you were not in the air, but you were on the ground, do
3 you know?
4 A. And did I know because on several occasions I was targeted by this
5 very same Pam, and I can draw and show you this location where the Pam
6 fired from and where I was.
7 Q. Very well.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. DP16, have you any knowledge on the modes that
9 can be used in anti-aircraft guns? Do you have any knowledge about how to
10 use such a weapon, the ways it can be used?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, personal experience.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Do you know what modes can be used?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't understand.
14 JUDGE ORIE: What would be the different ways of using such a
15 weapon?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] One of the modes, specifically
17 speaking, is that I was personally targeted with an anti-aircraft
18 machine-gun.
19 JUDGE ORIE: If you use such a weapon, how would you use that, to
20 do what?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was in a position to be near that
22 machine-gun, but I never used it. So I can't answer that question.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
25 Q. Witness, tell me how can you be certain that this machine-gun was
Page 16537
1 used, very briefly, when you were targeted by it?
2 A. If I had known that you would ask me that, then I would have
3 brought the bullet or rather several bullets that were targeting me,
4 that's the only way that I had proved it to myself what I was targeted
5 with by some people.
6 Q. Thank you very much. You wanted to identify the location from
7 which you were targeted. Could you please indicate it on the map; yes or
8 no?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Very well. Could you please point to it and could you now
11 please -- I believe now we are at number "6," mark number "6".
12 A. [Marks]
13 Q. Thank you very much. The witness has done so. Would you please
14 indicate the direction of fire, covering this machine-gun, this
15 anti-aircraft machine-gun?
16 A. From this position towards the locality of Grbavica. So that
17 would be a wide area, wider area towards Grbavica.
18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] The witness points to the back
19 of his lines to the west of the map in the direction of the word
20 "Grbavica."
21 Q. Witness --
22 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I would be grateful if we could have a
23 more specific description, either perhaps you should do it, Mr. President,
24 or I am happy to do it.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please point again exactly where they fired
Page 16538
1 it from, from there to -- in what direction?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, this here. From location
3 number "6" in the westerly direction in the direction of Grbavica towards
4 Vraca, up to the centre, urban centre of Grbavica.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The witness pointed from point "6" in westerly
6 direction, from south a little below where it reads "Vraca" on the map, up
7 north to Grbavica, the built-up area, even a little bit further north from
8 the word "Grbavica" itself. Please proceed.
9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you.
10 Q. Witness, did you see other weapons that were active and used by
11 the opposing army, specifically, artillery weapons that were used?
12 A. As far as the city of Sarajevo is concerned from which fire was
13 opened towards Grbavica and our positions, I personally saw two combat
14 vehicles, both were tanks.
15 Q. Very well. Where did you see them, please?
16 A. One tank I saw on the Hum hill which faces the south, that is,
17 faces us, and it is on the northern side of Sarajevo. And the second tank
18 I saw going out of the tunnel at the Ciglana locality.
19 Q. Thank you very much.
20 MR. IERACE: We have heard much evidence from this witness about
21 specific incidents, nothing as to time frame of what the Defence calls
22 "chronology." The witness has said that he was there throughout the war,
23 as I understand it. It is of little use without a time frame. And my
24 respectful submission is that should be done in chief, and not in
25 cross-examination.
Page 16539
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, especially if you are not talking
2 about positions that might have been held for a longer period of time, but
3 such observations as to tanks, would you please ask the witness to specify
4 a time.
5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, I will specify, yes.
6 Very well.
7 Q. Witness, in relation to these two tanks, first question, before
8 the time frame question, was this tank active; yes or no?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Thank you. When, if you can say this, when did you see it or when
11 did you know that these tanks were active, which period, which year, et
12 cetera?
13 A. According to what people -- what I heard from people throughout
14 the war, but from what I have seen, that was at the end of 1992 and the
15 beginning of 1993.
16 Q. Thank you very much. And it was firing in which direction?
17 A. In the direction that I can indicate, which is the direction of
18 Debelo Brdo, that is, the barracks Bosut.
19 Q. Very well.
20 A. And Zlatiste, these lines held by the Serbs.
21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] The witness indicates the
22 barracks located practically on the line where there is a large pocket
23 that is marked on the map, and then in an area which is bluish, slightly
24 below, above the word "Staro Brdo."
25 Q. Witness, the same question for the time frame or chronology in
Page 16540
1 relation to the Pam, what you called anti-aircraft machine-gun --
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, it could create some confusion
3 where you said it was -- he was pointing at an area north, at least above
4 Staro Brdo. He pointed at an area just south of the line he has drawn as
5 being the VRS line, just on a relatively empty area north-west of where it
6 reads "Staro Brdo." Where he indicated before where was Debelo Brdo.
7 Please proceed.
8 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, just another matter. The witness has
9 told us he has saw two tanks, one on Hum, one at the Ciglana tunnel. It
10 is not at all clear which of the two tanks he is referring to as having
11 fired at the barracks. Perhaps that could be clarified.
12 JUDGE ORIE: I thought he did.
13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, that can be
14 done through the cross-examination. The witness said that he saw both
15 tanks opening fire, so he used the plural.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. May I ask you, Mr. DP16, how often did you see
17 the tank at the tunnel firing in late 1992, early 1993?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In principle, very rarely, but it
19 did open fire.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but how often? One time? Five times? 10
21 times? 25 times? Approximately. I am not asking a --
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Judging by what I personally saw, it
23 was five times. I personally saw that.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that's what I was looking for. And the same
25 question for the tank at Hum hill. How often did you personally see that
Page 16541
1 tank fire?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That tank, according to what I saw,
3 opened fire only once towards Grbavica, because it was deployed on a
4 BH Army positions facing the northern part of the separation line between
5 the Army of Republika Srpska and their forces in the area of Vogosca, so
6 that it opened fire in that direction.
7 JUDGE ORIE: So you saw it firing only once to Grbavica. Please
8 proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you.
10 Q. Witness, what was the distance between Hum and your position as
11 the crow flies, approximately?
12 A. Hum and the position of the Jewish cemetery in my judgment, the
13 distance is more than 3 kilometres.
14 Q. And the shell reached the area?
15 A. It wasn't the tank from Hum, but from Ciglana.
16 Q. I see. Thank you. The same question for the anti-aircraft
17 machine-gun. From when was it used, et cetera, during which time period?
18 A. Very soon after the beginning of the war and throughout the
19 duration of the war.
20 Q. Thank you. Regarding weapons generally, Witness, you told us that
21 you were self-organised. What did you know about the organisation of the
22 adversary regarding the question of armaments, specifically?
23 A. As far as the organisation of defence in Sarajevo is concerned, I
24 think that it was very similar to the way our side was organised. As for
25 weapons, in the city of Sarajevo we all know that a number of buildings
Page 16542
1 that used to be used by the Yugoslav People's Army which when they left
2 Sarajevo or rather when the JNA withdrew from the territory of Sarajevo
3 and beyond, a large portion of the weapons was left behind in the
4 barracks, so that it was accessible to the opposing side.
5 Q. Will you please give us brief answers, as far as you can. To be
6 specific, do you know whether the adversary had access to those weapons in
7 the barracks; yes or no?
8 A. This was shown on television.
9 Q. Witness, did you know of any industrial facilities that were
10 situated opposite your positions in Grbavica; yes or no?
11 A. Specifically, facing my line there were no industrial facilities.
12 Q. Very well. Are you aware of a building that could have been used
13 for industrial purposes by the adversary; yes or no?
14 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I do object to leading.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] May I be heard,
17 Mr. President?
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please.
19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I don't think that the
20 question is leading. I am just asking the witness whether he knew certain
21 things, and I am saying -- using the term, a building that could have been
22 used. I don't see how else we could proceed. I don't see how else -- in
23 what other way I could put that question.
24 JUDGE ORIE: The -- as a matter of principle, I think every
25 building could be used for, that's rather my problem than leading,
Page 16543
1 perhaps. Whether it seeks speculation, let me just read the
2 answers -- the questions again.
3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President --
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] -- To save time, perhaps I can
6 rephrase the question.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please do so.
8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]
9 Q. We've spoken about weapons, Witness. This was at the beginning of
10 the war. Do you know how the problem of weapons as well as that of
11 ammunition was addressed and resolved, perhaps, by the so-called Muslim
12 forces in Sarajevo as the hostilities developed? What do you know about
13 that, if you know anything?
14 A. I can say something about that thanks to my experience as to what
15 was used to open fire at us and what fell upon us.
16 Q. Yes, please do that, briefly.
17 A. In the first stage of the war, it is true that the Muslim forces
18 had poor or poorer weapons and they used home-made shells and explosives,
19 mines and explosives. And what fell on us was an indication of this. In
20 any event, one could call that amateurish.
21 Q. Very well. And as from when did the situation change, according
22 to you?
23 A. Upon the withdrawal of the Yugoslav People's Army, following their
24 withdrawal.
25 Q. Could you give us the exact date, please?
Page 16544
1 A. It may be difficult, but in any event it was in May 1992.
2 Q. Will you please concentrate on the map to your right and I would
3 like you to add some information on that map. Was there, Witness, in this
4 area in which the two parties were in confrontation, were there any
5 military observation posts? And I am, of course, referring to UN
6 positions.
7 A. Yes, there were.
8 Q. Could you localise them and use the following numbers: 7, et
9 cetera, onwards, from 7 on.
10 A. In the immediately vicinity of the bridge, the Vrbanja Bridge,
11 there was a French unit post behind the chapel, behind number "5." On
12 this yellow road was an observation post number "8" held by French units.
13 At the top of Debelo Brdo, there was another French observation post,
14 number "9," and at the top of the Jewish cemetery number "10" was a
15 position held by Russian forces. Thank you.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace.
17 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President. Again I object on the
18 grounds of relevance, unless we have the chronology, unless we have the
19 times.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well. Gladly.
22 Q. Would you please tell us when those observation posts were
23 established, please, and for how long they remained there?
24 A. I may be mistaken regarding the month, but January, February or
25 March 1994, and until the end of the war they remained there.
Page 16545
1 Q. Thank you. Witness, would you please now tell us with respect to
2 a map --
3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, we were not
4 able to copy everything, but before that, as I have -- before showing
5 another map, we would like to submit another exhibit which will be D334,
6 with the assistance of the usher, whom we thank. The coloured ones for
7 the Chamber and a coloured one for the witness. I have another coloured
8 copy. There were three for the Chamber, but something happened which I
9 don't criticise.
10 JUDGE ORIE: We're fine.
11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you.
12 Q. Witness, do you recognise this building that we see on the screen?
13 A. Yes, I do.
14 Q. Thank you. So it is a red building. Is it the red building you
15 mentioned a moment ago?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Thank you. Could you tell us where it was situated on the map
18 indicating the name of the street, could you point to it on the map?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. If the map has gone, we will ask it to be brought back. How can
21 you explain what -- that something seems to be missing in the middle of
22 this picture?
23 A. May I -- shall I mark with a number this location?
24 Q. Yes, please do so.
25 A. Number "11."
Page 16546
1 Q. Thank you very much.
2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Now, perhaps we could put the
3 photograph on the screen again. Could you leave the map there, please, as
4 well. Put the photograph on top, please, photograph on top.
5 Q. Witness, there is an empty space in this building. Do you know
6 how it occurred, if you know?
7 A. The Muslim and Serb units were separated in that building by a
8 single wall of one apartment. Because of continuous and direct
9 provocations and firing, what happened was that a part of this building
10 toppled because inside there were gas installations, because before the
11 war, this building had heating by gas.
12 Q. Thank you. Was there destruction of this kind in Grbavica, I
13 mean, within the area that you were defending, that is Grbavica, and if so
14 what were the causes of such destruction?
15 A. The answer is yes, but as a rule the only major damage was on the
16 very front lines of combat.
17 Q. Thank you.
18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] We can remove the photograph
19 and show the witness a map. Unfortunately, Mr. President, we didn't find
20 any maps that were not previously marked, but we will tell the witness not
21 to pay any attention to the indications on this map, if that is acceptable
22 to everybody.
23 JUDGE ORIE: I take it that the question you put to the witness
24 are unrelated to the markings already appearing on the map?
25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, they are unrelated,
Page 16547
1 Mr. President.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, thank you. Mr. Piletta-Zanin, may I ask you one
3 clarification. When you asked the building in the photograph was the red
4 building he mentioned before, and since I tried to understand the context,
5 I couldn't find where the witness referred to a red building before, so I
6 am missing the context.
7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] He said very quickly, I don't
8 know whether he said it in Serbian, because I can't follow all three
9 languages at the same time. I know he mentioned it. As far as I can
10 recollect, he mentioned when he was taking up the pointer and before
11 drawing the line, I see him nodding his head, so my memory is good, he was
12 indicating where the line was going. And when he ended his description,
13 he said this is where a red building was, but I can look it up, if
14 necessary. It was at that point in time when he mentioned it.
15 MR. IERACE: Page 50, line 17.
16 JUDGE ORIE: So I missed it. I apologise for the time taken.
17 Please proceed.
18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]
19 Q. Witness to your right is a map, do you recognise that area?
20 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I don't have a copy of that map.
21 JUDGE ORIE: I have two got copies and my equality is not always
22 fully respected.
23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. I
24 hope that everyone has a map now.
25 Q. Witness, do you recognise this area appearing on your -- to your
Page 16548
1 right and on your screen?
2 A. Yes, only it is more magnified than it was a moment ago.
3 Q. Very well.
4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Perhaps, Madam Usher, we could
5 send her on the area around 24 and the red circle that we see on the map,
6 that we could focus in on that. Thank you very much. Stop.
7 Q. Witness, I would be grateful if you could disregard the two blue
8 lines that you see on this map. And I would also be grateful if with a
9 black marker you could localise, if you can, the place where the defence
10 lines of the adversary were. Use a black pen and do so in a dotted line.
11 If they are the same, you can just leave them. I am talking about the
12 lines held by the adversary.
13 A. [Marks]
14 Q. Thank you, Witness. Have you indicated thereby, the lines held by
15 the adversary, that is the BH Army?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Thank you. Witness could you indicate --
18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, just for clarification for myself,
19 was this line held by the adversary during the whole conflict? Did it
20 ever change or was it stable during the whole conflict, Mr. DP16?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] With the exception of these two
22 pockets, the rest of the line was stable.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It didn't change.
25 JUDGE ORIE: You say the two pockets, you mean the pockets on the
Page 16549
1 south of the cemetery, the first one, and the second one, Debelo Brdo.
2 Yes. Thank you.
3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
4 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, again it would be helpful to the
5 Prosecution in terms of the indictment period to know whether the pockets
6 were existent during the indictment period or after or before.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You say that the pockets, that's where the lines
8 changed. Were the pockets made later and then when?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] These pockets were made on the 6th of
10 January 1994.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Both of them?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Both.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] That's very clear. Thank you.
15 Q. You went around the red circle on this map. Could you, as we are
16 not on the same map as before, what was situated inside that red circle,
17 within the red circle, if there was anything in it?
18 A. The chapel at the Jewish cemetery.
19 Q. Thank you very much. Witness, I would be grateful if you could
20 place a "K", a single "K" within that circle, if you could, please.
21 A. [Marks]
22 Q. And for things to be quite clear, you spoke to us a moment ago of
23 a chapel held and occupied by the adversary, that is the Muslim forces.
24 Is that the same buildings that you have just marked with a "K"?
25 A. Yes.
Page 16550
1 Q. Thank you very much. Witness, at any point in time during the
2 conflict did the forces of the VRS or the Serb forces use this chapel
3 during the conflict; yes or no?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Thank you very much. Witness, the indication of the cemetery is
6 given a name, the word is written out, and also it is lighter in colour;
7 is that right?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Thank you. What were -- what was on the edges of the cemetery?
10 Was there something that marked the area in reality, physically, that 1s
11 the area of the cemetery?
12 A. Yes, there was a large stone wall.
13 Q. When you say "a large stone wall, you mean large in terms of
14 length, or breadth or height or all three? Or you mean something else?
15 A. All of that together.
16 Q. Very well. Roughly how high was the wall?
17 A. Two to three metres.
18 Q. Thank you very much. I must then ask you how then could you see
19 people entering and leaving the chapel, you yourself?
20 A. The place that I will indicate now to you is a small hill with an
21 orchard from which I had a view over the walls.
22 Q. Very well. Thank you. Will you please not mark anything on the
23 map, unless you are asked to do so. Thank you.
24 I would now like to ask you something else. Do you know what a
25 Dragonov is?
Page 16551
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, for the transcript, the witness
2 marked a very small circle approximately in the middle, just west of the
3 cemetery on the map. Please proceed.
4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]
5 Q. Do you know what a Dragonov is; yes or no?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Witness, from your positions, whatever they were, did you have a
8 line of sight, a direct line of sight to the point that one could see
9 before, but we can't see it now.
10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] So we must enlarge the map.
11 Q. So from your positions, wherever you were, did you have a direct
12 line of sight towards point "24" and how?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Why not?
15 A. First of all, because I lived in the area all my life. I know all
16 positions exactly by heart. And this map does not reflect the real state
17 of affairs on the ground. So that point "24" is not visible from the
18 position I was in because the view was obstructed by some buildings that
19 are in front of it.
20 Q. Could you show those buildings to us?
21 A. This building is the Assembly building of Bosnia-Herzegovina which
22 obstructs the view to the crossroads at Marijn Dvor and plus, this area
23 here is also walled in with a large wall, and these buildings are actually
24 an old warehouse that burned down in the first days of the war. And those
25 walls also obstructed the view to this position, and specifically, the
Page 16552
1 crossroads on the ground.
2 Q. I will interrupt you there.
3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] For the transcript, the
4 witness pointed to two buildings. The first, the first image is to the
5 north of the word "Marijn Dvor" or more precisely, the word "V-O-R" and in
6 a lighter colour right next to it, several buildings in a schematic form,
7 forming a polygon of red colour that are the warehouses the witness was
8 mentioning.
9 Q. The last question before the break, you spoke about the perimeter
10 wall and I was asking you about the view that you might have had of the
11 red dot marked with a number "24." Let me ask you the same question now,
12 but in a hypothetical sense, not regarding the line of sight, but a line
13 of fire. Was it possible, as far as you know, to be able to fire at and
14 hit point "24" from the positions that you held?
15 A. Do you mean infantry weapons such as a rifle?
16 Q. I am talking about a direct -- direct fire, yes, rifles.
17 A. From positions that I was at, it is impossible.
18 Q. Thank you very much.
19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I don't know
20 whether the break is now or at a quarter to?
21 JUDGE ORIE: The break is now, Mr. Piletta-Zanin. Yes. We will
22 adjourn until 10 minutes to 1.00. May I ask you, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, how
23 much time you would approximately need? I know that you are not yet at
24 the time indicated, but, of course, the experience of the last few days
25 gave hope to the Chamber that all parties would speed up.
Page 16553
1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] You are referring to the days
2 when I was absent, I am sure, Mr. President. It will be relatively brief,
3 as it has been the past few days, but I am not able to tell you just now.
4 I have to confer with my lead counsel.
5 JUDGE ORIE: To now, I think you used 1 hour and 40 minutes.
6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you.
7 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, as for the other topic, do you wish
8 that be discussed today or should I go straight into cross-examination?
9 JUDGE ORIE: It also matters how we proceed with this witness and
10 I will perhaps take a decision whether we will deal with it today or
11 later. I know I am always stealing minutes from you. We will adjourn
12 until 5 minutes to 1.00.
13 --- Recess taken at 12.33 p.m.
14 --- On resuming at 12.59 p.m.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Usher, could you please escort the witness into
16 the courtroom.
17 [The witness entered court]
18 JUDGE ORIE: You may proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
20 Q. Witness, welcome again into the courtroom.
21 And with the assistance of Madam Usher and of course with the
22 leave of Mr. President, we will ask you to have a look at some
23 photographs.
24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] And the Exhibit number is
25 D339. D339. And I'd ask Madam Usher to put the photograph on the ELMO.
Page 16554
1 Thank you.
2 Q. Witness, do you recognise this view that you can see on the
3 screen; yes or no?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Thank you. In the centre, in the middle more or less of the
6 image, and there is a yellow building, and perhaps we could zoom on the
7 two buildings in the centre of the photograph that we are interested in.
8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Could you please zoom a little
9 more, please. A little more. Thank you. Stop here.
10 Q. These are two -- oh, yes, here it is. Thank you.
11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Could we please zoom again
12 because we had lost -- thank you. Stop here. Thank you.
13 Q. Witness, do you recognise the picture or rather the building which
14 is to the left, the building which has a yellow facade, can you see that,
15 yellow walls, outside walls; yes or no?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Can you tell us what this is?
18 A. Holiday Inn Hotel.
19 Q. Thank you. Witness, do you know if this building was used for
20 other purposes, apart from civilian purposes, during the war?
21 A. No.
22 Q. You don't know that?
23 A. Not from personal experience, but according to information.
24 Q. From what sources?
25 A. From the people who came from the parts of Sarajevo under the
Page 16555
1 control of Muslim forces and they were crossing over to our side.
2 Q. Thank you very much. For the French booth, it is not the "other
3 towns" but the other parts of the town.
4 And what did they tell you? What did you learn from them?
5 MR. IERACE: I object, Mr. President, on the same basis as on
6 earlier occasions, we now -- the witness is now invited to tell us what he
7 has been told by unknown persons at unknown times in relation to uses at
8 unknown times.
9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, Mr. President,
10 this is rather surprising from someone who has issued an indictment --
11 JUDGE ORIE: One moment.
12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Sorry.
13 [Trial Chamber confers]
14 JUDGE ORIE: The objection is rejected. Mr. Piletta-Zanin, the
15 Chamber understands that it is sometimes difficult to have direct sources
16 available from information, what happened at the other side of
17 confrontation lines. On the other hand, you also should be aware that
18 since the other party, the Prosecution in this case, is not able to
19 cross-examine the sources, that, of course, the probative value will have
20 to be assessed at a later stage. And the more precise you are in relation
21 to the sources, the lesser the disadvantage for the Prosecution will be.
22 So please keep that in mind, but we will allow such questions on hearsay,
23 but I thought it wise to make the observations I just did.
24 Please proceed.
25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
Page 16556
1 First of all, I apologise. I didn't see that you were conferring, and I
2 thought I had your invitation to respond.
3 Q. Witness, could you specify with giving us small details with
4 regard to the information that you had about this building, with more
5 details?
6 A. Yes, precisely that. The fact is that a large number of people of
7 Serb nationality crossed over to this side from the Muslim part, that is
8 from the part of the city of Sarajevo that was held by the Muslim units.
9 And the sources are these people.
10 Q. Thank you. To the extent that these people told you about this,
11 for what purposes was this building used for?
12 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, the question presumes that the
13 communication was direct to this witness. He has not yet said that.
14 Perhaps we could clarify that.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, perhaps we first try to find out better about
16 the sources, because that is a problem, of course, if we allow hearsay.
17 Please clarify this issue first, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well, indeed.
19 Q. Among these people who left the city and would have brought
20 information with them, were there some of them that you knew directly and
21 who had spoken directly to you about this; yes or no?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Thank you. Can you, yes or no, give their names?
24 A. That shouldn't be a problem.
25 Q. Thank you. Thank you.
Page 16557
1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, should I
2 proceed with the names in which case we perhaps would have to go into
3 closed session or can we be satisfied with this demonstration?
4 JUDGE ORIE: I think we should be as detailed as possible in this
5 respect. We turn into private session.
6 [Private session]
7 [redacted]
8 [redacted]
9 [redacted]
10 [redacted]
11 [redacted]
12 [redacted]
13 [redacted]
14 [redacted]
15 [redacted]
16 [redacted]
17 [redacted]
18 [redacted]
19 [redacted]
20 [redacted]
21 [redacted]
22 [Open session]
23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you.
24 Q. Now, without giving the names of the people that you have told us
25 about, can you tell us, what did these people tell you directly to you
Page 16558
1 about this building and about its use for military purposes?
2 A. Yes. They told us the moment when they crossed over, that is in
3 the discussions we had after they crossed over, that this building apart
4 from it being used publicly as the seat of the journalists from the entire
5 world, this part of the building that was facing us, that's facing us on
6 the photograph, that this part of the building was used for military
7 purposes, that it had its positions from which firing -- fire was open
8 towards the positions of the Republika Srpska Army at Grbavica.
9 Q. When you say "from where firing was open" what with was fire
10 opened, from which weapons, please?
11 A. Infantry weapons, ordinary rifles.
12 Q. Very well. Are you here referring to a specific type of military
13 action?
14 A. In any case, your question demands a larger explanation.
15 Q. If you are able to do that, please.
16 A. The way of waging war in Sarajevo was specific, particularly in
17 this territory, in the urban area of the city of Sarajevo, all taller
18 buildings were used as sniper positions and as such, particularly they
19 were used during more intense conflicts or during attacks on the positions
20 of the Republika Srpska Army, as support for the depth for the units that
21 were trying to break through the lines of defence.
22 Q. You are saying that when there were movements, troop movements,
23 infantry troop movements in the framework of attack, the BH strategy
24 consisted also of having support from the inside from the sniping
25 positions, is this how I should understand your testimony?
Page 16559
1 A. I maintain that any clear position in clear position, that is,
2 visible streets or any open space at Grbavica was covered by sniper fire,
3 that is, the possibility of movement during attack. I am not talking
4 about throughout the war, but at the time when there was an attack and the
5 way when there were more intense or direct attacks or clashes on the lines
6 of the defence, it was impossible to have any kind of supply of
7 assistance, of food, throughout the territory of Grbavica because all
8 Grbavica was covered by sniper fire which, as I said, this fire was opened
9 from tall buildings.
10 Q. Witness, when you say this, you are talking about military parts
11 of Grbavica, if there were any, or civilian Grbavica, or what are you
12 talking about specifically?
13 A. Yes, certainly. Most intense fire was directed at the lines of
14 defence, but the sniper fire as support to the units of the BH Army was
15 open across the territory of Grbavica.
16 Q. Do you know if the citizens of Grbavica had to protect themselves
17 against this fire?
18 A. The exact data on civilian victims in Grbavica were never
19 disclosed, were never made public. And --
20 Q. I will interrupt you here. I will interrupt you here. Do you
21 know if civilians in Grbavica had to protect themselves against such fire?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. How did they do this?
24 A. Mostly by using screens that were set up in the street or in the
25 streets, passages, and intersections, and these screens protected them
Page 16560
1 from view facing the side of Sarajevo held by the Muslim forces.
2 Q. Thank you. Witness, earlier when I interrupted you, you were
3 speaking about your experience in relation to the victims or the wounded.
4 What can you tell us about this?
5 A. A certain period of time after the war, I worked at the
6 municipality of the Serbian New Sarajevo and the service that kept a
7 record throughout the war, I found data, a piece of data that over
8 1.000 -- there were over 1.000 civilian victims in that part of Grbavica.
9 MR. IERACE: I object to that, Mr. President.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace.
11 MR. IERACE: It seems that Mr. Piletta-Zanin anticipated that
12 answer. It is so nebulous in the foundation for that evidence as in my
13 respectful submission to be of no assistance to the Trial Chamber. "A
14 piece of data" --
15 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I apologise. We
16 don't have the interpretation.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then I will just -- I take it that it now is
18 functioning again.
19 Please proceed, Mr. Ierace. Or had you said what you intended to
20 say? You were able to listen to the objection, Mr. Piletta-Zanin?
21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. Yes. I
22 heard it with one ear, and I am going to reread it to make sure.
23 Surprisingly, I didn't -- I was not anticipating this answer, but what I
24 take note of is the following thing: Is that this witness always gave
25 measured answers, and specific answers, and he said he worked after the
Page 16561
1 war, but he did know about these facts that are in relation to the war.
2 It doesn't matter about the period, because we are speaking about a global
3 general number, so the fact that this witness --
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin --
5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes --
6 JUDGE ORIE: -- Would you please concentrate on the core of the
7 objection, that is that these kind of facts should not be introduced just
8 by, I would say, if I do understand you well, Mr. Ierace, by
9 uncontrollable data given through testimony rather than by other sources
10 that could be controlled and are fit to -- for the other party to check.
11 Please proceed.
12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. I
13 remember that there was testimony of an expert witness who was
14 Mrs. Tabeau, and she was officially employed by the Prosecution who had
15 also given data. She was also based on a kind of office, same kind of
16 office, except that it is based on the other side of the line to the one
17 which is opposite this witness. So is there a different kind of standard?
18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, is it the intention of the Defence
19 to introduce what is available of those records, and then have either
20 experts of witnesses to testify about it? Because that's how I understand
21 the objection of Mr. Ierace, that if there is material available, that
22 this material should be produced rather than a testimony of a witness
23 without producing either expert reports on it or the underlying data.
24 That's I think the issue we are talking about.
25 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, might I add something to my objection.
Page 16562
1 I don't believe this is in the description of the witness's knowledge.
2 Secondly, it seems from the witness's earlier reference to it on line 19
3 of page 78 that we are to be told that it is not available publicly. The
4 distinction between this evidence of that of Ms. Tabeau, is that the
5 information on which she based her conclusion was available to the
6 Defence. It seems this is not. To suggest there were a thousand civilian
7 victims on the Serb side, the Bosnian Serb side in Grbavica without giving
8 any opportunity to the Prosecution to check that data, is in my respectful
9 submission, not only inappropriate, but such as to render it inadmissible.
10 JUDGE ORIE: I thought that I summarised your objection
11 approximately in this sense. Now it certainly is clear,
12 Mr. Piletta-Zanin. Could you please respond to the core of the objection
13 which is about the possibility for the other party to check the data
14 underlying the testimony of the witness.
15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I just said,
16 but I wasn't understood correctly, is that I was surprised by this
17 response. I did not anticipate this because I cannot tell you that this
18 today I am going to come up from my left or my right pocket some factual
19 proof. The only thing that I can do to enrich the Prosecution in their
20 knowledge of facts is to tell them about the number of Serb victims during
21 this campaign in the widest possible sense, in the city of Sarajevo, and I
22 am speaking about the widest possible sense, a campaign. I am not talking
23 about the legal definition of the term. Thank you very much. May I
24 proceed, please?
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, you may proceed, but you have not yet given an
Page 16563
1 answer to my question, whether the Defence intends not to tell the
2 Prosecution what in the view of the Defence are the number of Serb
3 victims, but whether they will produce any data which at least are fit to
4 be investigated and to be checked on the validity of these figures. And
5 the Prosecution has pointed out that is the difference between the
6 approach followed by the Prosecution and now followed by the Defence. So
7 what could we expect before we continue?
8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] The answer is, yes,
9 Mr. President. The answer is yes. May I proceed?
10 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, this data or completely different
11 data, that's the issue.
12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the answer is
13 yes for the data about victims in general. So these pieces of data that I
14 have just found out about and Mr. Ierace understood this, I am speaking
15 about them lato sensu, not stricto sensu.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, you'll understand that the -- that
17 reliable data, controllable data, are always to be preferred. And if you
18 intend to do so, perhaps try to find a balance between what you seek from
19 a witness who seems not to have available at this moment this data, and
20 what you would try to produce at later stage.
21 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, if it is the same data, and
22 Mr. Piletta-Zanin tells us it is, then why do we hear it from this
23 witness, surely, given that we will be receiving it, we can wait until
24 then and the evidence can be given then in a proper form.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The -- Mr. Piletta-Zanin tells us that he is
Page 16564
1 surprised that this data does exist. But perhaps first a few questions
2 for you. You said that there were records about the number of victims.
3 Do you know where they are, these records?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Where are they?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In the municipality of Srpska Novo
7 Sarajevo in an institution, in the institution of the municipality.
8 JUDGE ORIE: You work with this data personally?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. I had them, had access to them.
10 JUDGE ORIE: What did you do with them? I mean, what -- did you
11 analyse them or did you consult them or what did you do with this data?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In the first place when I discovered
13 this data that are recorded in books, this was just a confirmation of what
14 I had already known as to what was happening during the war in Grbavica.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but my question was what you did with it.
16 Whether it confirms your impression that's a different matter. Yes. Did
17 you analyse it? Did you consult it and for what reason and what was the
18 result of this activity?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There was no real analysis. There
20 was just the factual state of affairs. So the books that I looked into,
21 we can find those figures or rather the first and last names of people,
22 and in most cases, also the date of their killing. And not only that, but
23 that is not my only source of information. A source of information --
24 JUDGE ORIE: I am -- whether you have other sources of
25 information, that's perhaps for the next question. But I would first like
Page 16565
1 to concentrate very much on these records. You say that these records
2 contain names and sometimes the date when people were killed. Are these
3 records just about people killed or also of victims being injured?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not the injured. I just wanted to
5 add by way of explanation, these data, if I may.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, if it is on this data, please do so.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Clear evidence of the number of
8 civilian victims at Grbavica are the tombs and the inscriptions on them
9 with the names and date of death.
10 JUDGE ORIE: I have got to stop you. I am asking you about the
11 records, whether there is other evidence on the number of victims, that's
12 a different matter, and perhaps the parties may ask you questions about
13 that. But I am specifically interested at this moment in these records.
14 Did I understand you well that these records indicate that some thousand
15 people have died? Is that contained in these records?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Died and that means something else,
17 but killed, yes.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Killed. Please correct me if I am wrong. So that
19 they were killed. Who did create these records? Are they medical
20 records? Are they administrative records? Are they -- what kind of
21 records are they?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In principle, this is done by a
23 service attached to the municipality, and this service functioned
24 throughout the war and kept those records.
25 JUDGE ORIE: So it is an administrative recording of those killed.
Page 16566
1 Does it make any distinction between whether the victims were civilians or
2 were military people, as far as you can know?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Can you tell us that these records are still -- if
5 you looked at it, at these records, for what purpose, apart from perhaps
6 that you would like to know, but was there any professional involvement in
7 looking at it? Did you have to summarise them or did you have to extract
8 them or did you have to copy the content of it for other purposes? Could
9 you tell us what actually brought you to consult, at least, to look into
10 these records? What caused you to do so?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] One of my duties in the municipality
12 was to cooperate with the international community. And one of the
13 questions that were put in the course of that cooperation had to do with
14 things that happened during the war. And this data was necessary in a
15 certain period of time in context with a particular international
16 institution, and that is how I found that figure, which have been
17 verified, and which has been recorded, and I presented it during these
18 discussions or rather contacts with the international community.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Which entity of the international community are you
20 referring to? So I do understand that this data has been provided to an
21 international organisation; is that correct?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is provided to any organisation
23 from the international community if it makes such a request. And the
24 organisations that asked me were the military forces of the international
25 community, which is now called SFOR, in those days it was UNPROFOR.
Page 16567
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, so this data have been provided. Was that after
2 the war or during the war that these data were provided to the military
3 authorities of SFOR and/or UNPROFOR?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What I was referring to was after
5 the war. And as for the work of the municipality during the wartime,
6 wartime I don't know.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Let me just confer one second.
8 [Trial Chamber confers]
9 JUDGE ORIE: Now knowing better what the source of information of
10 the witness is and how the data, according to this witness, have been
11 distributed in the international community, the -- and also having heard
12 that the Defence will produce the data also in other forms,
13 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, you are allowed to ask questions about it. Of course,
14 here again, the probative value of the information the witness gives might
15 vary according to what other evidence will be presented in this respect
16 and how controllable that evidence will be.
17 Please proceed.
18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. We
19 have only a few questions as the gentleman is not an expert.
20 Q. But since you spoke about that, sir, these civilians killed during
21 those events, does one know why, how they were killed? What had provoked
22 that death?
23 A. With respect to civilians, in most cases it was the effect of
24 sniper fire, which doesn't mean that they did not get killed as a result
25 of other types of firing towards Grbavica. I am referring to shells and
Page 16568
1 fire opened from other types of infantry weapons that were random.
2 Q. Thank you very much. I would like to refer to the photograph you
3 have on the screen. And when you look at the tower in the forefront of
4 the picture, please. Thank you. Did you hear the question?
5 A. I see the building in the middle.
6 Q. Yes. Do you see holes in that building?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Could you tell us in two words what they are?
9 A. As I said, this building that we are referring to and I told you
10 that the same applied to all the tall buildings --
11 Q. No, I am just asking you what are the holes.
12 A. These holes are the results of tank fire.
13 Q. Why do you think that this type of tank fire was directed against
14 this tower, briefly, please?
15 MR. IERACE: I object, speculation. "Why do you think tank fire
16 was directed against this building?"
17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I will withdraw the words
18 "why do you think."
19 Q. Let me say: Do you know for what precise reason we see evidence
20 of tank impact on these buildings and if yes, tell us the reason.
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And what was the reason?
23 A. It was anti-sniper fire.
24 Q. Thank you very much.
25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] With the assistance of the
Page 16569
1 usher, I should now like us to place on the ELMO our document D1811
2 referring to incidents 20, 15, 10, 7, et cetera. And a colour copy should
3 be placed on the ELMO, please.
4 Q. Do you recognise the map on the ELMO, please; yes or no?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Thank you. Witness, the lines that you see, both the light green
7 one going northwards, as well as the darker green line going southward
8 which could represent the positions of the armies, are those lines
9 correct; yes or no?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Witness, to the extent to which those lines are not quite correct,
12 would you be able to draw on this map with precision the real positions of
13 those lines; yes or no?
14 A. The Serbian lines fully, yes; as for the Muslim lines, partially.
15 Q. Thank you very much. Will you please take a black pen and in a
16 full line redraw the Serb lines as you remember them.
17 A. [Marks]
18 Q. Witness, you have drawn this line. Could you please focus on the
19 two red spots that you see in the centre of the screen and take the
20 pointer, please, and place it slightly to the right, slightly to the
21 right.
22 A. [Indicates]
23 Q. No. No. The circle in the middle, please.
24 A. [Indicates]
25 Q. Thank you. Now slightly to the right. Very lightly to the right.
Page 16570
1 A. [Indicates]
2 Q. Witness, to the best of your recollection and starting from that
3 point, the line that you continued from there, is it quite correct or
4 wasn't there a different line starting from the section going to the left?
5 A. Roughly, as far as I can recollect, this is the continuation of
6 the line along the road to the left.
7 Q. Very well. Were you frequently on that line?
8 A. That is very close to where I lived, yes.
9 Q. Could you now please draw in a dotted line the part of the enemy
10 line that you are familiar with.
11 A. I am only sure of this part, that it went like this.
12 Q. Thank you. Witness, as these maps are not useful in this way for
13 measuring distance, what is the distance between the line that you have
14 just done, that is the dotted line of the enemy positions and point 15
15 marked with the number "15" on the map, what is the distance?
16 A. An indicator that we can use is the stadium that I am pointing to,
17 number 217, which is some 60 metres wide. So that could be the distance.
18 Q. When you say that the stadium was 60 metres, was it 60 metres
19 according to what you remember or is it based on what you think, viewing
20 the map?
21 A. No. It is based on what I know regarding the width of a football
22 pitch.
23 Q. Thank you.
24 JUDGE ORIE: May I ask you, was there a football pitch in that
25 stadium?
Page 16571
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
4 Q. Witness, do you see a point number "10" on the map, and if you do
5 could you point it out with the pointer.
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Thank you.
8 Q. Witness, my question is the following: Bearing in mind the
9 geographic configuration of the land, could one see from the Serbian lines
10 and taking into consideration the buildings in this area, could one see
11 the point with the number "10"; yes or no?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Could you explain why that point number 10 was not visible?
14 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, just so that I fully understand the
15 context of the evidence, I take it that the question is intended to refer
16 to any part of the Serbian line or any --
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that is what the question was about. Yes.
18 Mr. DP16, you were answering a question on the visibility of point 10 from
19 whatever position at the Serbian line, that's how -- that's the question
20 you have answered.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] From the front line the answer is,
22 no.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. From whatever point on the front line. Please
24 proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you. Things appear to
Page 16572
1 be quite clear. We have another 10 minutes. And in view of the various,
2 but useful interruptions, I think we could be granted a little more time.
3 I don't think I will be abusing too much the people working in and around
4 this courtroom.
5 JUDGE ORIE: You said you would need another 10 minutes, is that
6 how I understood you? You indicated two and a half hours for this
7 witness, according to my bookkeeping --
8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes --
9 JUDGE ORIE: -- Until now we have used approximately two hours and
10 25 minutes. So 10 minutes will be granted for tomorrow.
11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you. Perfect.
12 JUDGE ORIE: So we will adjourn until tomorrow morning, 9.00, same
13 courtroom. May I instruct you not to speak with anyone about the
14 testimony you have given or you are about to give tomorrow. And we hope
15 to see you back tomorrow morning, 9.00.
16 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, just before you adjourn, I have the
17 CDs of C2, if I could hand those to the Registrar. Thank you.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, then I have to adjourn again, because words
19 spoken after we adjourned we are, in one way or another, re-opening, so we
20 now adjourn until tomorrow morning, 9.00.
21 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at
22 1.45 p.m., to be reconvened on Friday,
23 the 29th day of November, 2002, at 9.00 a.m.
24
25