080527ED

Page 3725

1 (redacted)

2 [Open session]

3 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're in open session.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

5 Witness 56, since the Bench has no further questions for you,

6 this concludes your testimony in this Court. The Chamber would like to

7 thank you for coming a long way and answering all the questions put to

8 you by the parties and by the Bench.

9 I wish you a safe trip home again. Perhaps you'd stay for a few

10 seconds, in view of the protective measures.

11 We'll have a break. Then, I take it, that the Prosecution is

12 ready to call its next witness. No protective measures for the next

13 witnesses.

14 Then I have one scheduling issue which I would just like to

15 address very briefly.

16 For the witness to come after the next witness, no protective

17 measures either? That's the witness who is available only on Thursday,

18 at least that's what --

19 MR. TIEGER: I believe that's correct, Your Honour.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. No protective measures.

21 MR. TIEGER: That's my understanding.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Nevertheless, I will try to be as cautious as

23 can be, because sometimes matters change. This is not an invitation, by

24 the way.

25 For the next witness with whom we'll start after the break, how

Page 3726

1 much time would the Prosecution need? I think it was scheduled for one

2 hour and a half, is that correct Mr. Russo, or am I mistaken?

3 MR. RUSSO: Your Honour, I believe the witness was originally

4 scheduled for two and a half hours, but I think I can do it in two.

5 JUDGE ORIE: You can do it in two. How much time would the

6 Defence need for the next witness to come, the next witness being

7 Witness - let me just see - Mr. Hill.

8 MR. KAY: I will be under half an hour.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kehoe.

10 MR. KEHOE: Yes, about two to three hours, Your Honour.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Two to three hours.

12 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Your Honour, half an hour to an hour, depending

13 on what happens in front me.

14 JUDGE ORIE: That brings altogether three and a half hours plus

15 two hours, so that is five and a half hours. We have available tomorrow

16 four hours. We will have able today another 55 minutes.

17 Yes, Mr. Russo.

18 MR. RUSSO: Your Honour, I will do my best to cut my examination

19 shorter than two hours.

20 JUDGE ORIE: I'm asking this because the witness to come after

21 the witness who we'll see later this morning, that's Witness 135, I'm

22 informed that this witness is available only on Thursday.

23 Now from what I understand, the Prosecution would need with that

24 witness approximately one hour, if I'm well-informed. I also was

25 informed that two of the three Defence teams would not cross-examine, at

Page 3727

1 least at this moment for Witness 135, do not expect that they will have

2 any questions in cross-examination. I see this is true from Markac and

3 Cermak Defence.

4 Mr. Kehoe, how much time do you think you will need. We are

5 talking about Witness 135.

6 MR. KEHOE: I am familiar. Judge, I have been concentrating on

7 this witness that is coming to the bar first, but I do believe that I can

8 complete that in the Thursday time-frame.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then the Chamber will not prepare for any

10 additional time Thursday in the afternoon, expecting that the Prosecution

11 will stick to its one hour and expecting that you'll have sufficient time

12 until quarter to 2.00.

13 MR. KEHOE: Yes, sir.

14 JUDGE ORIE: That is on the record. I will be strict in this

15 respect. No five minutes because it would mean to recall the witness

16 once he has travelled back to where he comes from, and that would be for

17 just a couple of minutes just a matter of discipline and efficiency.

18 MR. KEHOE: I understand, Your Honour.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you again, and sorry for bothering you with

20 matters which are not relevant for you.

21 We will have a break and resume at five minutes to 1.00 sharp.

22 [The witness withdrew]

23 --- Recess taken at 12.33 p.m.

24 --- On resuming at 12.57 p.m.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Before we continue, just a brief observation in

Page 3728

1 relation to the previous witness.

2 Mr. Mikulicic, that a statement which was put to the witness was

3 marked for identification. We have had similar situations a couple of

4 time the. We have had it in relation to Mr. Tchernetsky who was on the

5 list of the Prosecution. At this stage, it was not a real problem there.

6 We also had it in relation to some statements taken by the Defence which

7 were put to Mr. Gojanovic; for example, D201 and 202. That is also where

8 the village of Gracac in those statements appear, rather than in the

9 testimony and Mr. Misetic had sought clarification on the issue village

10 or town, already.

11 Now the witness statement which was MFI'd this morning is of a

12 witness who is not, or at least not anymore, on the list of witnesses for

13 the Prosecution. So the Chamber will just wait and see whether this

14 witness ever appears and whether this witness will ever attest. I can't

15 say call him as a witness in the Defence case, because I don't know

16 whether there will be a Defence case. So, therefore, the Chamber just

17 waits and sees what will happen.

18 MR. MIKULICIC: Yes, Your Honour. I appreciate that, Your

19 Honour.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you.

21 Then, Mr. Russo, I take it, it will you who examines the next

22 witness?

23 MR. RUSSO: That's correct, Your Honour. And the Prosecution

24 will call John Geoffrey William Hill, Witness 123.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Russo.

Page 3729

1 [The witness entered court]

2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Russo, perhaps a very practical way of

3 proceeding is not to ask attestations on each separate statement but

4 perhaps put them all, ask whether this is the testimony, and then at the

5 end ask him whether for all statements, because there is a quite a lot of

6 them, isn't there?

7 MR. RUSSO: That's correct, Your Honour. That was my intention,

8 and there are also will be a few corrections which I'll lead him through.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

10 Good afternoon, Mr. Hill. I take it that you can hear me in a

11 language that you understand.

12 Mr. Hill, before you give in evidence this court, the Rules of

13 Procedure and Evidence require you to make a solemn declaration that you

14 will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

15 May I invite to you make that solemn declaration.

16 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the

17 whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Hill. Please be seated.

19 You will first be examined, although from what I understand very

20 much on the basis of statements already given, by Mr. Russo who is

21 counsel for the Prosecution.

22 Please proceed.

23 WITNESS: JOHN GEOFFREY WILLIAM HILL

24 Examination by Mr. Russo:

25 Q. Mr. Hill, Will you please state your full name for the record?

Page 3730

1 A. John Geoffrey William Hill.

2 Q. And do you recall giving four statements to the ICTY: One dated

3 23 August 1996; the next, 28 to 29 May, 1997; the third on

4 1st November 1999; and the 4 fourth on 16 November 2007?

5 A. I do.

6 THE INTERPRETER: Could the speakers please pause between

7 questions an answer for the interpretation. Thank you.

8 MR. RUSSO: Yes, and I apologise to the interpreters.

9 If I could have the assistance of the court usher,

10 Mr. President, Your Honours, I would like to give the witness hard copies

11 of his statements.

12 THE WITNESS: Thank you.

13 MR. RUSSO:

14 Q. Mr. Hill, did you have a chance to review all of your statements

15 before coming to court today?

16 A. I have.

17 Q. And in the course after that review, did you find a number of

18 corrections to be made to a few of those statements?

19 A. I did.

20 Q. I'd like you to take you through those corrections if I could.

21 Let turn to your first statement page 3?

22 JUDGE ORIE: Can we get them in on the screen so that we can

23 following the --

24 MR. RUSSO: Yes, Your Honour. That would be 65 ter 4913.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. 65 ter numbers are usually not working, but

Page 3731

1 for Mr. Registrar that would be sufficient.

2 MR. RUSSO: And, Your Honours, that would be, on the actual

3 statement, page 0042-3175 by the ERN.

4 Q. Mr. Hill, looking towards the sort of middle of the page, the

5 third section there, that paragraph that begins, "at the end of July,"

6 the second paragraph indicates: On the 31st of July, there was some

7 shelling of Strmica where a Kenyan company HQ was located."

8 Do you have a correction to the location where the Kenyan company

9 HQ was located and where these events happened?

10 A. That was in Vrlika, by Strmica.

11 Q. Thank you.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Russo.

13 THE WITNESS: May I correct?

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Hill, the Chamber always invites everyone

15 to be as sufficient as possible. This has resulted in the speed of

16 speech in which I don't know yet who is going to win, Mr. Russo or you.

17 But the time I took is in order to give an opportunity for the

18 interpreters to translate what you said.

19 THE WITNESS: Okay.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Russo.

21 MR. RUSSO: Thank you, Mr. President.

22 Q. Mr. Hill, if we could now move to your second statement.

23 MR. RUSSO: And this is 65 ter 4914, and this would be at the

24 page 0057-7643.

25 And if we could turn to 0057-7643, it would be at line 9.

Page 3732

1 Q. And at line 9, you indicate: "Then there was on a particular

2 day, it was close to the 5th, probably the Monday or the Tuesday," where

3 you give a discussion of shelling which occurred in Strmica.

4 Was the Monday or Tuesday, was that intended to be before

5 Operation Storm?

6 A. Yes, it was.

7 Q. And the 5th then being actually the 4th of August. Is that

8 correct?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Thank you.

11 And if we could stay with that statement, move to page 7655, and

12 beginning at line 20, where you indicate: "Then around supper time, I

13 was sent. I took a couple of APCs, and I was going into town to get some

14 patients at the hospital because apparently there were civilians at the

15 hospital."

16 Do you have a correction about the reason that you were actually

17 going into town that day?

18 A. I don't recall the reason I was sent to go downtown at that day

19 at that time.

20 Q. And you don't recall it being to the hospital?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Okay.

23 And if we could move now to page 7698, and beginning at line 19,

24 where you discuss a town that you saw burning, and you call it Pecare,

25 P-e-c-a-r-e, was that actually intended to refer to Pecane, P-e-c-a-n-e?

Page 3733

1 A. Yes, it was.

2 Q. And there are a number of references to the name of that town

3 going all the way to 7702, and all of those references are supposed to

4 reference to Pecane. Correct?

5 A. Correct.

6 Q. And with regard to that same incident that is reported there, you

7 make reference to the civilian police being the people that you saw in

8 that town. Was that intended to refer to the civilian police or to a

9 different type of police?

10 A. That's in reference to the Special Police, the dark blue uniforms

11 with the armoured vehicles with the cannons that were dark blue.

12 Q. And, finally, moving to page 7721 and beginning at approximately

13 line 5, where you are having a discussion regarding which units were in

14 Operation Storm coming through Obrovac; and, again, you refer to the

15 civilian police. Is that also intended to refer to the Special Police?

16 A. Yes, it is.

17 Q. Okay. And those references continue on to the second page, 7722,

18 at line 10, where it also indicates civilian police.

19 The line says: "A total of six, one is civilian police." Was

20 that also supposed to refer to the Special Police?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Thank you.

23 Now, Mr. Hill, with those corrections that we've just identified,

24 as a whole, are the four statements that you made to the ICTY true to the

25 best of your knowledge?

Page 3734

1 A. Yes, they are.

2 Q. And do those statements, given the corrections, accurately

3 reflect what you said?

4 A. Yes, they do.

5 Q. And if you were examined on those same matters here today in

6 court, given your corrections, would your answers be the same?

7 A. They would.

8 Q. Thank you.

9 MR. RUSSO: Your Honour, at this point, I will tender the four

10 exhibits. That would be 65 ter number 4913, which is the 23 August 1996

11 statement.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Before we continue, I encouraged Mr. Russo to

13 take a bit of an abbreviated route to tendering. We have not gone

14 through all the signatures and all the pages, et cetera. If there would

15 be any challenge on what the witness just said relates to what we had on

16 paper and which is uploaded into e-court, then I'd like to know it now.

17 MR. KEHOE: Your Honour, no, we have no objection. As a matter

18 of fact, just to expedite matters, if Mr. Russo could just offer these

19 four in, certainly it would move this along.

20 JUDGE ORIE: May I take it that is the same for the other

21 Defence?

22 MR. KAY: No objection.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Then we have, Mr. Russo, we have, in your 92 ter

24 request or submission motion, we have two questions. The first is about

25 the statements. We'll deal with those first.

Page 3735

1 Witness statement dated 23 August 1996, Mr. Registrar that would

2 be?

3 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P291, Your Honours.

4 JUDGE ORIE: I've seen from the written submissions no

5 objections, so P291 is admitted into evidence.

6 The next one, Mr. Russo, I take it, is the witness statement

7 dated 28th, 29th of May.

8 65 ter number 4914, Mr. Registrar.

9 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P229, Your Honours.

10 JUDGE ORIE: P229, no objections, therefore admitted into

11 evidence.

12 Third one is the 1st of November, 1999 statement, 65 ter 4915.

13 No objections.

14 Mr. Registrar, that would be?

15 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P293, Your Honours.

16 JUDGE ORIE: P293 is admitted into evidence.

17 Last is witness statement dated the 16th of November, 2007. Also

18 no objections from, as I take it, from the written submissions.

19 Mr. Registrar.

20 THE REGISTRAR: This becomes Exhibit P294, Your Honours.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

22 Then there was another request; that is, to add 14 photographs to

23 your 65 ter exhibit list. From the written submissions, I learned that

24 none of the Defence teams object to it. Therefore, hereby the request to

25 add the 14 photographs as specified in your request to the 65 ter list is

Page 3736

1 granted.

2 Please proceed.

3 MR. RUSSO: Thank you, Mr. President. At this time, I would like

4 to read a 92 ter summary for the witness.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please do so.

6 Mr. Hill, you are aware that the reason for reading out a summary

7 is that the public knows what we find in your statements.

8 Please proceed.

9 MR. RUSSO: Thank you, Mr. President.

10 Mr. Geoff Hill was the commander of the United Nations Military

11 Police in Sector South from June until December 1995. Prior to Operation

12 Storm, he liaised with the RSK minister of the interior and chief of

13 police in Knin, and worked to maintain the security of UN personnel

14 throughout Sector South, and to prevent hijacks and theft the UN

15 equipment.

16 He was present in Knin during the artillery attacks on 4 and 5

17 August 1995, and observed the shelling of Knin from the UNHCR compound.

18 After Operation Storm, he managed to leave the UN HQ compound during the

19 HV blockade and gain access to many areas in Sector South where he

20 observed shelling damage and also witnessed HV soldiers, Special Police,

21 and civilian police engaged in looting or acts of destruction. He also

22 discovered several dead bodies and evidence of killings on the road used

23 by the Serbs to flee the Krajina.

24 Mr. Hill also gained the trust of a HV military police commander

25 named Ivan Juric, who indicated that he was in charge of all military

Page 3737

1 police units in the territory of the former RSK, including their

2 anti-terrorist unit, and who provided Mr. Hill with information regarding

3 the conduct of Operation Storm and the fact that all Serbs in the

4 territory of the former RSK were considered terrorists.

5 That concludes my summary, Your Honour.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.

7 Please proceed.

8 MR. RUSSO: Thank you, Your Honour.

9 Q. Mr. Hill, I'd like to begin with the situation in Knin

10 immediately prior to Operation Storm. If you could refer, please, to

11 your first statement, and that is P291 at page 3.

12 And in the middle of that page, you indicate that you didn't see

13 any heavy ARSK military equipment in Knin. Can you tell the Court what,

14 if any, preparations you saw being made for a defence of Knin immediately

15 prior to Operation Storm?

16 A. Yes. I didn't see any extra activities that would be referring

17 to a defence of the town.

18 Q. And to your knowledge, was there any organised removal of

19 civilians prior to Operation Storm?

20 A. No.

21 Q. And to your knowledge, did any local civilian employees not show

22 up for work before Operation Storm?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Let's turn now to the shelling that happened on 4 August.

25 If you could please explain to the Court what you personally

Page 3738

1 observed or heard of the shelling on that day.

2 A. On that morning at 0500 exactly, an artillery barrage started of

3 Knin, in what I believe was from the south and the east. It was hundreds

4 and hundreds and hundreds of artillery rounds. I immediately moved with

5 the platoon I had on the grass to the back of the MP building, taking two

6 MPs out of building and sending them up to their bunkers. We stayed in

7 the bunker. It was for the escort platoon. There was two major salvos.

8 I believe one was about 30 minutes, long followed by a pause which I had

9 believed would be for them to reload to restock, and then another 30

10 minutes.

11 It was hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of roads. I was in the

12 bunker with the platoon this way to me. The doors were open

13 approximately this wide, and I could see out over the town and there was

14 orange glows and original bursts from the air-bursts of the artillery.

15 That went on for approximately 90 minutes, and there was enough of a lull

16 that I could then move up to the top of the camp where my MP platoon was

17 to my bunker. My bunker is on the edge of the camp with the ARSK camp,

18 and I'm looking directly into Knin.

19 The shelling continued. It was getting to the point where we

20 could listen to how close the round was coming in and observe. I took

21 some photos of the town being shelled. At that point -- or during that

22 time, a mortar round impacted the building directly over my head on the

23 corner. A subsequent UNMO CBA or CDA was done to say that is was an

24 82-millimetre mortar from the ARSK. And a rifle propelled grenade passed

25 the entrance the bunker and detonated approximately six feet off the

Page 3739

1 ground back to my left, and blew myself and Corporal - I don't recall his

2 name - down the stairs. We lost helmet, and we lost our weapons.

3 And at that point, the shelling abated to the point where it was

4 just harassment, rather than a massive salvo of hundreds and hundreds and

5 hundreds of rounds.

6 JUDGE ORIE: For the record, Mr. Russo, the opening the witness

7 indicated was approximately 20 to 25 centimetres, which --

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The two doors I left open so that I

9 could see out.

10 JUDGE ORIE: You're gestures do not appear on the transcript.

11 That's the reason I'm --

12 THE WITNESS: Sorry, Your Honour.

13 MR. RUSSO: Thank you, Mr. President.

14 Q. Mr. Hill, you mentioned what you could see through the doors of

15 this container, and that you could see air-bursts and I think you said

16 glowing. If you could explain to the Court what air-burst is and how you

17 know what it is?

18 A. I was a reserve artillery officer before becoming a military

19 police officer in the Canadian army. There is three types that you can

20 use in artillery. When you want to attack and destroy a position on the

21 ground, you use PD, point detonating. The round goes off when it hits.

22 If it's reinforced, then you want the round go into the ground and then

23 detonate. It is called delay.

24 The third type is called air-burst. It is designed to go off, I

25 believe - you can set it different heights - but approximately 20 metres

Page 3740

1 above the ground. And it will spread the shrapnel over a very large

2 area. It is designed to kill troops in the open. An example is the

3 typical trench you might see in World War One is very deep. If an

4 artillery rounds hits the ground beside the trench, the soldiers are

5 safe. If it detonates above the trench and spreads the shrapnel out and

6 they are unprotected, which they are, then it would cause an awful lot of

7 injuries and death. This was occurring over Knin by me seeing the

8 original glows from the bursts of the air-burst artillery.

9 Q. Thank you. And continuing on that first --

10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Russo and Mr. Hill, I don't know yet who is

11 going to win, but you're both in a good position, and the interpreters

12 and court reporters ask you to slow down.

13 MR. RUSSO: Thank you, Mr. President. My apologies to the

14 interpreters. I will make an effort to slow down.

15 Q. Again, Mr. Hill, I think on the same page, and I think also

16 during the summary you just gave us, you used the term "harassment fire"

17 which you indicated was the kind of shelling that was occurring after the

18 initial salvos.

19 Can you please explain to the Court what you mean by harassment

20 fire?

21 A. It's a term, I believe, first used by the Americans in World

22 War II, and then later in Vietnam. When you're shelling a position of

23 force, they are putting artillery rounds into the area, not in massive

24 salvos of hundreds and hundreds of rounds, but perhaps one, two, three,

25 four rounds, a break, another round, another round. So it's enough that

Page 3741

1 the enemy is aware they are being attacked. It limits movement, it

2 limits resupply, and it basically is harassing the enemy rather than an

3 all out offensive, like very earlier in the morning where there are

4 hundreds and hundreds of rounds.

5 So, in the morning, there was that initial attack, hundreds and

6 hundreds and hundreds. It abated to this through the day; and then later

7 in the evens prior to 2300, it picked up again to be the second highest

8 level of shelling for the day in Knin.

9 Q. Thank you.

10 MR. RUSSO: And, Mr. Registrar, if we could please pull up 65 ter

11 number 4899.

12 Q. Mr. Hill, do you recognise what's in that picture that?

13 A. That is my accommodation at the very top of our base.

14 Overlooking, to the right of the photograph, this would a straight shot

15 looking over Knin; and on the far corner below is where my bunker was for

16 those two days.

17 Q. If you were standing on the top of that bunker, what would your

18 view be?

19 A. The town of Knin.

20 Q. And did you take this photograph?

21 A. Yes.

22 MR. RUSSO: Your Honour, I would like to have this admitted.

23 MR. KEHOE: No objection.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.

25 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P295, Your Honours.

Page 3742

1 JUDGE ORIE: P295 is admitted into evidence.

2 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Your Honours, if we could just get an indication

3 of when the picture was taken. I don't know if that was --

4 JUDGE ORIE: That is not against admission but an additional

5 question.

6 Mr. Hill, could you tell us when this picture was taken.

7 THE WITNESS: I don't recall, Mr. President.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Approximately, during your stay there?

9 THE WITNESS: Absolutely. It would have been during the month of

10 July/August.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Prior to or after Operation Storm?

12 THE WITNESS: I couldn't tell that you.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

14 MR. RUSSO: Thank you, Mr. President.

15 Mr. Registrar, if we could now have 65 ter 4900.

16 Q. Mr. Hill, looking at that photograph, I take it, was that taken

17 on the 4th of August?

18 A. Yes, it was. Taken from my bunker, and I believe that's the POL

19 compound area of Knin being shelled.

20 MR. RUSSO: Your Honour, I'd move for the admission of 65

21 ter 4900.

22 MR. KEHOE: No objection.

23 JUDGE ORIE: In the absence of any observations, Mr. Registrar?

24 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P296, Your Honours.

25 JUDGE ORIE: P296 is admitted into evidence.

Page 3743

1 Please proceed, Mr. Russo.

2 MR. RUSSO: Thank you, Your Honour.

3 Q. Mr. Hill, moving now forward to the afternoon of the 4th of

4 August, and staying on the same paragraph. I believe it is the third

5 paragraph down, you indicate that you found a piece of a mortar shell

6 inside the camp which you later showed to someone else. This is on your

7 first statement, the third full paragraph towards the bottom.

8 A. Page 3?

9 Q. Page 4. Can you please explain to the Court what it is that you

10 found and what you learned about it?

11 A. Walking back from the orders group of 1400 to my office, I found

12 a very large piece of shrapnel. It was quite different than the shrapnel

13 we had found before, which was from artillery. It was very thick and

14 very big, perhaps three-eighths to half of an inch thick and five to six

15 inches long, I didn't know what it was. I took it to Master Bombardier

16 Parlee, who is a gunner, and asked what it was, and he said it was a

17 casing to a 120-millimetre mortar round.

18 Q. Thank you. Now, moving to the next paragraph down on that same

19 page, that's the final paragraph. You describe an incident or something

20 that you witnessed in Knin which you called "counter-battery fire"

21 occurring within your view. Can you please explain that incident to the

22 Court?

23 A. As the bombardment of the town abated to the point where it was

24 what I would call harassment, I would watch them shell with my

25 binoculars. On a ridge on, I believe, east of Knin, I saw what I believe

Page 3744

1 to be puffs coming from HVR artillery on the lee side of the ridge. At

2 that point, an impact of six to eight rounds came in a direct straight

3 line, called the linear, on the ridge. From my artillery training,

4 normally when you fire artillery, artillery will land in a group. But

5 what you can do for a linear is you make it so that you fire the rounds

6 in a straight, long line. It is designed that if you have, for example,

7 a trench system the top of a hill, you can put the rounds into the trench

8 system or a line of guns. So.

9 I concluded there was a line of HV guns on the lee side, and the

10 Serbs had struck with one to rounds per guns. So it was approximately

11 six to eight rounds, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, along the ridge

12 exactly in a line, and they did that three times. I was quite impressed

13 by the capability of the guns to be able to hit that well in such a

14 straight line.

15 MR. RUSSO: Mr. Registrar, if we could please pull up 65

16 ter 5170.

17 Q. Mr. Hill, do you recognise what's depicted in this photograph?

18 A. That's the area where I saw the counter-battery fire on that day.

19 Q. And can I take that to mean that the area circled in red is where

20 you saw that?

21 A. Yes.

22 MR. RUSSO: Your Honour, at this time, I would move for admission

23 of 65 ter 5170.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Just for my orientation, could you tell us from what

25 direction and from where this picture was taken?

Page 3745

1 THE WITNESS: This picture, I don't know, I did not take it. But

2 it would have been -- the ridge was east from my view from my bunker on

3 that day.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Russo, but, please correct me when I'm

5 wrong, I see at least a railway complex, approximately on the right part

6 of the photograph, just below the middle. It gives me the impression

7 that this photograph was taken from approximately the area of the

8 fortress or the castle, and then it would be approximately a

9 north-easterly direction. Is that correct?

10 I'm just thinking allowed so that I do not remain with a totally

11 inadequate understanding of what this photograph presents us. I see no

12 comments or no objections.

13 MR. RUSSO: Your Honour, you are correct. The photo was taken

14 from the castle.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

16 Number to be assigned.

17 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this becomes Exhibit P297.

18 JUDGE ORIE: No objections.

19 Then P297 is admitted into evidence.

20 MR. RUSSO: Thank you, Mr. President.

21 Q. Mr. Hill, you mentioned earlier that sometime later in the

22 evening, approximately around 2300 hours, the shelling picked up in

23 intensity. I'd like to know, prior to that time, did you learn whether

24 or not the shell would go continue on the following day?

25 A. At an orders group at 2100 hours in the headquarters, we were

Page 3746

1 told that the HV would attack again at 0500 hours the next day.

2 Q. And by the time that you learned that, at 2100 hours, had the

3 town of Knin been shelled for pretty much the entire day up to that

4 point?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And moving now to the time that you said the shelling picked up

7 at about 2300 hours, can you tell the Court what you were doing at about

8 2300 hours?

9 A. I was summonsed to the front gate of the camp where I met the

10 Chief of Staff, Colonel Leslie, at the time. General Forand, our

11 commander, had decided that he would take in the Serb refugees. They had

12 been accumulating at the gate throughout the day, seeking refuge from the

13 shelling. At that point, there was in excess of 300. General Forand

14 directed they would come in. The task was given to me. Colonel Leslie

15 left. I used my escort platoon and my MP platoon, and we brought all the

16 refugees in, searched them, lodged them in, I believe, one of the bars on

17 base, as well as an auditorium and a gym; then began the process of

18 searching, taking them to meals, putting a wire compound around which

19 later eventually rose to over 850 and half our camp.

20 Q. Can you tell the Court, starting at 2300 hours, how long it took

21 you to process everyone in on that night?

22 A. Until approximately 0230 hours.

23 Q. Was there shelling continuing during this entire period?

24 A. Yes. The shelling had picked up. After I had given the tasks to

25 all the individuals, I sent down on the steps of the headquarters

Page 3747

1 building to have a cigarette. And I'd found another piece of shrapnel in

2 the compound and I remember thinking with all of the shelling that was

3 going on, we were in an open courtyard where my men were dealing with the

4 refugees. I remember thinking that it was all it took was one artillery

5 round in had a courtyard and most of my unit would be killed.

6 Q. Mr. Hill, can you give the Court an idea of what the makeup of

7 what this group of refugees was?

8 A. Women, children, old men, old ladies. There were some

9 military-aged individuals in it. Basically, people that have come from

10 the town. They had some bags, some personal belongs as they came in.

11 Q. Did you find weapons on any of them?

12 A. Found one AK, one Russian grenade, and several knives on

13 individuals that we searched.

14 Q. Thank you. Now If we can move to the following day, the 5th of

15 August, and if you could tell the Court, again, what you personally

16 observed or heard of the shelling on that day?

17 A. At approximately 0510, the shelling started again, same as the

18 4th, in extremely large volumes, hundreds and hundreds of round, slightly

19 less than the bombardment on the morning of the 4th, throughout the town

20 of Knin.

21 Q. Now, in your first statement, at page 5, in the third full

22 paragraph, you mention an incident where an artillery round impacted at

23 the corner of the UN compound. Can you explain that to the Court?

24 A. I was at the main gate, seeing how the processing of refugees was

25 happening. It was an ongoing process. As they came to the gate, they

Page 3748

1 were admitted, they were searched, and interned. At approximately, an

2 artillery round --

3 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please slow down a bit.

4 THE WITNESS: Sorry, Your Honour.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Could we perhaps resume there. Your answer started

6 with: "I was at the main gate, seeing how the processing of refugees was

7 happening. It was an ongoing process. As they came to the gate, they

8 were admitted, they were searched," and then what did you say after that?

9 THE WITNESS: Interned.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Then, please, continue slowly with your answer.

11 THE WITNESS: This was approximately 0930 hours. While talking

12 to my commander, General Forand, an artillery round hit the wire at the

13 corner of our camp. General Forand instructed me to go and check what

14 had occurred. I left the camp with a number of soldiers. I got to the

15 T-intersection, just outside the camp. I had also brought an OT-64 with

16 me, and I saw six individuals who had been killed. Four were wounded, a

17 mixture of civilian and military - I do not recall the exact mix - laying

18 on the ground on that road from the intersection, a little up past the

19 camp.

20 I went back into the camp. I requested an engineer, a Canadian

21 engineer, to go and clear the bodies of any potential booby traps. Then

22 at that point, I was tasked by General Forand to set up a patrol within

23 the camp, because the Jordanian troops were not going into their fighting

24 positions. They were staying in their bunkers. My soldiers were to go

25 around and get them in their firing positions.

Page 3749

1 I later learned that the bodies were all bagged by the

2 individuals that went out with me. All the weapons, grenade, rockets

3 were taken offer the soldiers who were ARSK, and lodged in my cell area.

4 And that's the last dealing I had with that.

5 MR. RUSSO: Thank you.

6 Mr. Registrar, if we could please have 65 ter 4912.

7 Q. Mr. Hill, can you describe this photograph for the Court, please?

8 A. At the T-interpretation in front of our camp, one road leads to

9 the right into Knin, and one out. This is a long building. This

10 building was behind those soldiers when they were killed by the artillery

11 round, and that is an example of how the shrapnel from that round had

12 spread out over the street. So I took that picture to document it.

13 Q. Thank you.

14 MR. RUSSO: Your Honour, I would like to have 65 ter 4912

15 admitted.

16 MR. KEHOE: No objection.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.

18 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P298, Your Honours.

19 JUDGE ORIE: P298 is admitted into evidence.

20 Please proceed.

21 MR. RUSSO: Thank you, Your Honours.

22 Q. Mr. Hill, you indicated that the bodies at the intersection were

23 bagged by some of the people that you had gone out with. Do you know

24 what happened to those bodies later on?

25 A. They were bagged in the black body-bags that we had and put by

Page 3750

1 the side of the road, across from the camp on a road leading upwards out

2 of Knin. I was told that HV, when they were martialing to go into Knin

3 for the last night, fired AKs into the bodies after opening the bags, and

4 that urinated and defecated on the bodies.

5 At a later date, the bodies were there for quite some time. I

6 recall seeing them with the bags opened, and one body in particular had

7 been -- had feces on the body and the bodies shot, even though the bodies

8 died or the cause of death was the artillery round.

9 Q. Thank you. At some point later in the day, in your statement,

10 you indicate that the HV entered the town -- or, actually, that they had

11 come to the UN compound.

12 Can you describe for the Court how they came to the compound?

13 A. This is the first time that they came?

14 Q. Yes. When was the first time you saw them?

15 A. It was around noon that they came in, from around to the right of

16 camp, where the Serb or ARSK barracks were. They arrived with three

17 tanks, T-54, 55 -- I'm sorry, six tanks, T-54, 55, and three APCs, T-80s,

18 with troops on foot. We talked to them. General Leslie -- they wanted

19 to come into the camp and take the refugees, and I'm sorry, Colonel

20 Leslie, at the time, was negotiating. He eventually negotiated that the

21 Croats would stay out of the camp.

22 The Croats told us that "We must stay in the camp." I was there

23 discussing with the soldiers. Two of them were Canadians. One was on

24 top of a tank. I talked to him and asked him how the offensive had gone.

25 They said they took 30 hours to take Drnis, and then it only took five

Page 3751

1 from there to Knin.

2 I asked what they were going to do. He said they were going to

3 kill all the Serb. The other individual, who was from, I believe,

4 Montreal or Ottawa, was on the left, was infanteer. And I had asked him,

5 because he spoke good English, what he was doing there, and he said he

6 had come back to fight against the Serbs and that he had been waiting for

7 this since 1945. He was approximately 22 years old.

8 Q. Thank you.

9 Now, Mr. Hill, your -- do you know what unit of the HV they

10 belonged to?

11 A. I believe this was the Pumas.

12 Q. Why do you believe that?

13 A. By their patches, they were known as the Puma Brigade.

14 Q. And referring to your second statement this time, that would be

15 P292, I believe, at page 0057-7655. That is, again, beginning at

16 line 20, where you describe trying to get into the town of Knin. Can you

17 tell the Court about that?

18 A. Around supper time, I took two OT-64 and two M-113 APCs to go

19 into town, to try to get back any refugees that we could find. We went

20 down the road to the T-intersection, where that building was I showed

21 with the damage; turned right and got almost down to the gas station.

22 There was one T-54 tank in front of us. They started to move the tank,

23 but then a commander came, either a captain or a major HV. And he got

24 extremely agitated, and I said we were going into town. We were UN, we

25 were trying to find refugees. He absolutely refused, he said it was

Page 3752

1 forbidden, he put tank across the road, he was quite angry, and he

2 ordered us back to camp.

3 When you looked behind, and turned around from the gas station

4 and looked up the road, beside our camp, the entire road to the top of

5 the hill was lined, front to back, of tanks and APCs of HV with infantry

6 on top. And it was their assembly area before their final assault on

7 Knin.

8 After talking to this major, he had talked about taking our

9 pistols, and he had later put a tank in front of the gate to come and

10 take our pistols and then later removed. And we were told that we could

11 not go into Knin that night.

12 Q. Thank you.

13 MR. RUSSO: Mr. President, I will be moving to a new topic after

14 this. I don't know if this is an appropriate time to break.

15 JUDGE ORIE: I think it is.

16 Mr. Hill, we will adjourn for the day. I'd like to instruct you

17 not to speak with anyone about your testimony, whether the testimony you

18 already given or the testimony still to be given, and we'd like to see

19 you back tomorrow morning, 9.00, in this same courtroom.

20 We stand adjourned until the 28th of May, 9.00, this same

21 courtroom.

22 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.44 p.m.,

23 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 28th day of May,

24 2008, at 9.00 a.m.