080826ED

Page 7424

1 soldier would go there. When Jovan Mirkovic came out of the prison, he

2 told me this was about the 21st of August, he told me that he went there,

3 with Mijo Lazic and his son Dusan. He worked in Porice. So he was

4 telling me that they -- we entered your house, not everything had been

5 looted. We found some blankets and we put in the blankets whatever bones

6 remained there, because her whole body was not intact. Probably it had

7 been burned, but also maybe some animals just took the bones away, and

8 they buried the body, the remains that they found, they buried in the

9 yard by the well, the water well.

10 Q. Thank you, Mr. Mirkovic. Do you know whether people returned to

11 the hamlet of Mirkovici?

12 A. No.

13 Q. So are there any persons living now in Mirkovici?

14 A. No one lives in Mirkovici.

15 MR. WAESPI: Thank you, Mr. President, I have no further

16 questions.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Waespi.

18 Mr. Misetic you will be the first one to cross-examine the

19 witness.

20 MR. MISETIC: Yes, Your Honour.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mirkovic, you will now be cross-examined by

22 Mr. Misetic, who is counsel for Mr. Gotovina.

23 Cross-examination by Mr. Misetic:

24 MR. MISETIC:

25 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Mirkovic.

Page 7425

1 A. Good afternoon to you, too.

2 Q. Mr. Mirkovic let me start off by asking you about your trip on

3 the evening of the 4th, your flight from your village of Mirkovici.

4 Did you have any physical impediments on the night of the 4th

5 that hindered your ability to leave towards Bosnia?

6 A. There were no impediments. At least not on the roads when we

7 started off. We took off about 9.30/10.00 p.m. There were no

8 roadblocks.

9 Q. I think you may have misunderstood my question. Did you

10 physically have any physical ailments that hindered your ability to

11 travel on the night of the 4th.

12 A. No.

13 Q. Was your vision good?

14 A. What do you mean? My vision was good then and it's still good.

15 Q. Your legs were okay, your back is okay.

16 A. Yes, thank God.

17 Q. The next question I had is your witness statement identifies your

18 father as being named Djuradj is that the formal name for Djuro?

19 A. Djuradj is his name.

20 Q. Was he known as Djuro?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Okay.

23 MR. MISETIC: Now, if I could call up Mr. Registrar 1D44-0192,

24 please.

25 Q. Mr. Mirkovic, this is a supplemental information sheet that was

Page 7426

1 prepared by the Office of the Prosecutor after you spoke with Mr. Waespi,

2 on your arrival here in The Hague. It contains additional information

3 clarifying portions of your witness statement.

4 MR. MISETIC: If we could turn the page, please.

5 Q. Mr. Mirkovic, is that your signature on the second page?

6 A. Yes. Yes, sir.

7 Q. Does this supplemental information sheet accurately reflect what

8 you told the Office of the Prosecutor?

9 A. Yes, I told the truth.

10 Q. And, Mr. Mirkovic --

11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. -- Mr. Misetic, I see an English text and I'd

12 like to have verified in which way the witness has been able to review

13 the text as we see it here in English.

14 MR. WAESPI: The practice is that we read these notes back to the

15 witness in English, and correct whatever the witness tells us and then

16 once the process is completed, the witness signs it.

17 JUDGE ORIE: You read it in English to the witnesses.

18 MR. WAESPI: Yes. But we have an interpreter who translation --

19 JUDGE ORIE: [Overlapping speakers] ... so it is orally

20 interpret what had you read to him.

21 MR. WAESPI: Yes.

22 JUDGE ORIE: And then he signs it on the basis of the

23 interpretation given to him.

24 MR. WAESPI: That's correct.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for that information.

Page 7427

1 Please proceed, Mr. Misetic.

2 MR. MISETIC:

3 Q. If I were to ask you the same questions that you were asked when

4 Mr. Waespi was interviewing you and preparing this supplemental

5 information sheet, would your answers be the same today as they were when

6 you gave these answers to Mr. Waespi a few days ago?

7 A. Yes. They can only be the same.

8 MR. MISETIC: Your Honour, I would tender this supplemental

9 information sheet as an additional 92 ter statement of the witness.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Waespi.

11 MR. WAESPI: No objections.

12 JUDGE ORIE: No objections. In view of the positions taken by

13 the parties, we -- the Chamber is very likely to take a position to

14 admit, but we have not -- at least I have not seen any copy of it, a hard

15 copy of it. It's not tendered so usually before taking an admission

16 under 92 ter we'd like to read the whole of the statement rather than

17 just have a glance of it.

18 MR. WAESPI: I do have a few hard copies.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, if you'd give them to us and we can proceed on

20 the basis that there is an likelihood in view of the positions taken by

21 the parties that the Chamber will admit the document.

22 Please proceed.

23 MR. MISETIC: Could we get a MFI for that, Your Honour.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Registrar.

25 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that becomes Exhibit number D327,

Page 7428

1 marked for identification.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

3 MR. MISETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

4 Q. Mr. Mirkovic --

5 MR. MISETIC: It is it important that the Bench have a copy of

6 this if I wish to ask you questions.

7 Q. In the second paragraph of this supplemental information sheet,

8 you say that when you gave your witness statement to the investigators of

9 the Office of the Prosecutor on the 9th of March, 2007, you were sitting

10 together with Jovo and Smilja Mirkovic. Is that correct?

11 A. Yes, we were.

12 Q. And when Jovo and Smilja Mirkovic were giving their statements to

13 the investigators of the Office of the Prosecutor you were present in the

14 room with them as well. Is that correct?

15 A. I don't know whether -- what time you mean, because the

16 investigators came to Bosansko Novo Selo twice, on two occasions and on

17 the second occasion I wasn't there. I was only there on the 9th of

18 March.

19 Q. So when Jovo and Smilja Mirkovic gave their statements on the 9th

20 of March 2007 you were present in the room. Is that correct?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. In your supplemental information sheet you say, "Although I was

23 trying to refresh their memory because they were older people I did not

24 try to influence them in any way."

25 Now, can you tell the Court specifically which portions of the

Page 7429

1 testimony of Jovo and Smiljana you assisted them by refreshing their

2 memory?

3 A. There was no -- nothing specific because they started telling

4 their story from the end. They weren't very focussed, and I just told

5 them then, Do you recall what he told me in 1995? Is that how it

6 happened, and they said yes.

7 So it wasn't that I really had to refresh their memory. They

8 could remember all of that, but it was a bit difficult for them, because

9 a lot of time has elapsed and these were older people. They are sick,

10 ill, and even a bit senile. So they weren't really -- their memories

11 weren't really all that great.

12 Q. So if I understand you correctly at certain time you would say,

13 Don't you remember you told me this, and they would say simply say, Yes.

14 Is that how it went?

15 A. Yes, yes, nothing more.

16 Q. Do you remember specifically how many times you said, Do you

17 remember that you told me this, and they would say, Yes?

18 A. I can't really recall. Maybe twice or three times. I don't

19 really recall.

20 Q. Do you remember what the topic was, when you said, Do you

21 remember you told me this, and they said, Yes?

22 A. I think that I told Jovo when he started telling the

23 investigators about this event, instead of telling them about what

24 happened and how he buried the remains of my mother, he started telling

25 them, You know, they chased me, they beat me, and so on and then I told

Page 7430

1 him, Wait a minute Jovo just tell them about what they came for to hear

2 and then you can tell them about the rest or for, instances, Smilja said

3 the two of them came, they were in uniform these two soldiers, one of

4 them started shooting, I fell over Djuka. After this I got up and then I

5 asked her, Well, what do you mean you got up? You remember you told me

6 that you had fainted, because that is what she had told me and then she

7 just confirmed she said, yes, that ask how it went. So there is nothing

8 special.

9 Because the way she said -- or the way she recalled the way she

10 told these things it seemed as if she was just lying over my mother and

11 then she got up and left but that is not really how it really went,

12 because they were at the time they were at the high school building

13 that's where they were taken, that's where they were sheltered and that's

14 where she told me about this, but then because so many years had elapsed

15 in the meantime and because of all of the problems that they had had in

16 the mean time she couldn't really recall all the details; but there was

17 nothing really important in the reminding.

18 Q. Do you recall the names of the investigators that were there?

19 A. It was Mr. -- I think his name was Steven; he said he was from

20 Australia, and another gentleman, I can't -- I can't really remember that

21 other name. Because these weren't, you know, our names that I would

22 recall easily.

23 Q. Now, did either one of the investigators at any point of the

24 interview of Smiljana and Jovo tell you that you shouldn't try to assist

25 the witnesses in refreshing their recollection?

Page 7431

1 A. They said you needn't tell them anything you should just tell

2 them what you know, and that's what they did.

3 Q. At what point in the interview did the investigators tell you

4 that you needn't tell them anything?

5 A. Right at the very start. I tried to draw their attention to

6 their previous accounts at the very outset.

7 Q. Okay. Let me move on to a different topic.

8 Mr. Mirkovic, in your 2007 statement at paragraph 1 you say: I

9 "Thought there may be an attack by the Croatian army and the Serbian

10 soldiers may be defending us."

11 A. That's right.

12 Q. Why did you think that the Serbian soldiers would be defending

13 you?

14 A. I don't quite understand, sir. Are we supposed to talk about

15 that, are we supposed to discuss my mother's death? Are we now going

16 back to the attack or shall we go on discussing my mother's death? There

17 were people who were under attack. I suppose there should be someone

18 defending them, right?

19 Q. Where were they defending you from, what positions?

20 A. Sir, I don't know what positions those were because there was no

21 one defending. You see that's why we are here because there was no one

22 to protect us.

23 Q. Well, on the morning of the 4th, at 4.55 a.m., where did you

24 think the Serbian soldiers were from what positions on the morning of the

25 4th did you think they were defending you?

Page 7432

1 A. I don't know sir. I don't know where they were. You should ask

2 someone who was in charge of the military. I didn't know. I'm here to

3 testify about one thing and you're asking me about something different

4 altogether. I'm no specialist in strategy; therefore, I could hardly be

5 expected to tell you anything about this.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mirkovic, from your last two answers it appears

7 that you had little, if any, knowledge about military matters.

8 Nevertheless, Mr. Misetic, when -- since you said that you -- you would

9 expected some Defence is entitled to ask you questions about that, this

10 does not in any way shift the -- the substance of your testimony away

11 from what you considered to be an important matter, especially for you,

12 which is quite understandable.

13 Nevertheless, Mr. Misetic is entitled to ask you these questions,

14 and to the extent you have knowledge of the matters he asks you, please

15 tell us. If you have no knowledge of it, please tell us that you do not

16 know.

17 Please proceed, Mr. Misetic.

18 MR. MISETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't say I know nothing because

20 we all knew that on one side there was the Serb army the army of the

21 Republic of Serbian Krajina, on the other side there was the army of the

22 Republic of Croatia. Everyone knew that, and that is the extent of my

23 knowledge, too. Those who were shelling us were the ones we fled and

24 then we want to the move on to Bosnia, perhaps or Serbia, and that's why

25 we started out that way. And that is much as I know, where were they,

Page 7433

1 now, that is something that I can't say.

2 MR. MISETIC:

3 Q. Well, Mr. Mirkovic, you also say in paragraph 1: "We were under

4 the protection of the United Nations and I believed that nobody could

5 attack us."

6 Why did you think that you couldn't be attacked because of the

7 United Nations?

8 A. Well, because this area was the responsibility of the UN or the

9 international community. We had every confidence that the UN would

10 achieve some sort of peaceful solution in the area and that people would

11 not come to any great harm. We'd also heard that some representatives of

12 the Republic of the Serbian Krajina several days before had been off to

13 some talks in Geneva that is something that was broadcast on Radio Zagreb

14 on Radio Srpska Krajina, Radio Belgrade, Belgrade TV, or whatever you

15 chose to call them. We, the people, were hearing such things at the time

16 there were talks under way they were trying to achieve some sort of

17 peaceful solution, and we didn't expect that anyone would go attacking us

18 during the talks.

19 Q. Mr. Mirkovic, at paragraph 4 of your statement you indicate that

20 the people could not go to Bosansko Grahovo because it had already been

21 taken over by the Croatian army so they were moving through Lika, through

22 Srb and further on. You were aware were you not on the morning of the

23 4th, that the Croatian army had taken Grahovo the week before?

24 MR. WAESPI: I do have a B/C/S copy for the witness because it is

25 not on the screen.

Page 7434

1 MR. MISETIC: That's fine -- oh, sorry.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, if you -- I think it is it good if the witness

3 has an opportunity to read the portion of this statement you're referring

4 to.

5 Please proceed, Mr. Misetic.

6 MR. MISETIC: Thank you.

7 Q. Do you see at paragraph 4, sir, that you say that the people

8 could not go to Bosansko Grahovo because it had already been taken over

9 by the Croatian army?

10 The question is you were aware on the 4th of August that the

11 Croatian army had launched an attack and had seized Bosansko Grahovo the

12 week before. Is that correct?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And you were aware that Mr. Martic had issued a general

15 mobilisation order at the end of July 1995, after the fall of Grahovo.

16 Is that correct?

17 A. I didn't know about that at all.

18 Q. Well, Mr. Mirkovic, on the 4th of August, 1995, you would have

19 been 35 years old. Were you ever in the army of the Republika of Srpska

20 Krajina?

21 A. I had been mobilized, just like everyone else.

22 Q. What were the dates of your mobilisation?

23 A. I can't remember.

24 Q. It doesn't have to be specific dates. Months -- can you give us

25 months that you were mobilized, years?

Page 7435

1 A. It was an on-and-off thing. I sometimes had to go.

2 Q. Were you a mobilized soldier of the army of the Republika Srpska

3 Krajina on the 4th of August, 1995?

4 A. No, I was at home at the time.

5 MR. MISETIC: Mr. Registrar, if I could call up, please,

6 1D44-0194.

7 Q. Mr. Mirkovic, this is a document seized by Croatian authorities

8 after the fall of the Republika Srpska Krajina in the archive of the army

9 of the Republika Srpska Krajina, there's a list of junior officers of the

10 army of the Republika Srpska Krajina.

11 MR. MISETIC: If we could turn the page, please. In the B/C/S if

12 we could turn the page, and if we could leave that in English.

13 Your Honour it is a 40-page document; we have only translated the

14 first page and the relevant page. I have the full 40 pages, though, in

15 case any needs -- I think we have produced it to the Prosecution in case

16 they want to look through it. I don't know if the Bench wants to see it

17 but ...

18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Waespi.

19 MR. WAESPI: Yes, I'm fine with this -- this excerpt.

20 MR. MISETIC:

21 Q. Mr. Mirkovic, at number 419 of the list of junior officers of the

22 ARSK is a Mirkovic, Savo, son of Djure, born in 1960. Is that you?

23 A. I don't know if this is me. But name is definitely not Savo. My

24 name is Sava.

25 Q. Were you an officer of the army of the Republika Srpska Krajina?

Page 7436

1 A. No.

2 Q. Do you know anybody named Savo Mirkovic, son of Djure, born in

3 1960?

4 A. No.

5 MR. MISETIC: Your Honour, I'd ask that this exhibit be marked,

6 and I tender it into evidence.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar. Perhaps, yes, I do agree, Mr. Waespi

8 that usually I give an opportunity first to --

9 MR. WAESPI: Yes. No objection but I would love to see the cover

10 page of the document.

11 MR. MISETIC: I think --

12 JUDGE ORIE: [Overlapping speakers] ... it's on my screen --

13 what is not on our -- the original cover page.

14 Mr. Misetic, nevertheless, the cover page doesn't give any

15 information about the date of the document.

16 MR. MISETIC: I understand that, Your Honour. That is the way

17 the document is.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, yes so you can't provide us further

19 information.

20 MR. MISETIC: [Overlapping speakers] ...

21 JUDGE ORIE: No. Any other details about this document which

22 would make it easier for us to understand what it actually is.

23 MR. MISETIC: I can provide the source -- the date the document

24 was taken, the place that it was taken.

25 JUDGE ORIE: [Overlapping speakers] ... of course after -- after

Page 7437

1 the early day the of August, 1995, then -- I take it it was not -- it was

2 not found before Operation Storm.

3 MR. MISETIC: Correct, correct. That is correct.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And that is, Mr. Waespi, I take it, you

5 would -- if it seized by the Croatian authorities as -- there's a logical

6 expectation that it would not be in their hands before Operation Storm.

7 MR. WAESPI: Yes, the document says what it says. The little we

8 have seen, the witness said what he had to say about the -- his name.

9 JUDGE ORIE: That's content.

10 MR. WAESPI: We don't have any objections to the document itself.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.

12 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that becomes exhibit number D721.

13 JUDGE ORIE: D721 is admitted into evidence. But it is cover

14 page and one page, including number 419. But I saw very quickly another

15 page, which seemed to be not exactly the same as the cover page, or was

16 I -- are there any other pages which are not just giving names, but I

17 think I very briefly saw something. Perhaps the last page.

18 MR. MISETIC: Yes, I think we just attached -- we did first the

19 cover page, the page that's relevant for this witness and the last page

20 of this document.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I remember that I had seen another page.

22 So it is now a three-page document. And if we could see also the

23 last page. Is this the last page?

24 MR. MISETIC: That is the last page, Your Honour.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

Page 7438

1 MR. MISETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

2 Q. Mr. Mirkovic, I asked you some questions about your health at the

3 beginning. You were a healthy 35-year-old male on the 4th of August,

4 1995. How is it that the army of the Republika Srpska Krajina didn't

5 mobilize you prior to Operation Storm?

6 A. Sir, not everyone was mobilized.

7 Q. Again, how is it that you weren't mobilized? Did you receive a

8 mobilization call-up?

9 A. I told you it was an on-and-off thing with me. I would be

10 mobilized at times. When I wasn't mobilized, I spent my time at home. I

11 explained to the gentleman how much we believed in our survival in the

12 area and what faith we had in the UN. We put up tents with my neighbour,

13 we put up tables and staged a whole wedding for 100 people. That's how

14 great our confidence was.

15 Q. From the 28th of July, 1995, to the 4th of August, 1995, did you

16 receive a mobilisation call-up?

17 A. I don't remember. I don't think so though.

18 Q. Now, with respect to President Tudjman's call, it is in your

19 statement and you repeated it again today apparently one of the things

20 that stood out to about his statement was the fact that President Tudjman

21 said that people would get a fair trial.

22 On the 4th of August, were you aware that you could be tried for

23 treason by Croatian authorities?

24 A. That's not what I was thinking about at the time, not at all. I

25 didn't expect to be tried by anyone. I didn't expect there to be any

Page 7439

1 trials. Why would anyone try me or anyone else? I committed no crime.

2 I was a victim of a crime.

3 Q. I'm asking you, sir, you were -- you were asked some questions

4 about your decision to leave on the 4th of August, and having been a

5 participant in the army of the Republika Srpska Krajina you were aware,

6 were you not, that that would be considered an act of treason by Croatian

7 authorities. Is that correct?

8 A. I was not aware of anything, treason or no treason. This simply

9 isn't what was on my mind at that time. My mother was no soldier. Look

10 what became of her. Did anyone call her a traitor?

11 Q. Mr. Mirkovic, were you aware at the time that you could be tried

12 for anything by Croatian authorities?

13 A. Why would I have been tried by anyone?

14 Q. Okay.

15 MR. MISETIC: Mr. Registrar, if we could call up, please,

16 1D44-0188.

17 Q. Mr. Mirkovic, what I'm showing you now is an aerial satellite

18 view of Polace. You said in your supplemental information sheet you

19 describe the fact that Polace is comprised of several hamlets. That is

20 in paragraph 4 of your supplemental information sheet. We have circled

21 many of the hamlets in Polace, and as you can see on the map, your

22 village of Mirkovici is that the location of where Mirkovici is?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. If you look there are now two rather large shaped objects. The

25 one to the right we have marked Velika Polace; the one to the left we

Page 7440

1 have marked Mala Polace. Are you familiar with the terms Velika and Mala

2 Polace?

3 A. Yes. I explained about that yesterday. Velika Polace, Mala

4 Polace. All the hamlets that we looked at yesterday on that map.

5 That whole lot makes up Polace. This covers an extensive area.

6 The area ranges from the Knin-Split road and then through Biskupija up to

7 Kijevo, Mount Dinara and Kozijak [phoen]. These are the four borders as

8 it were, so it is an extensive area covered by that village. It's a

9 large village.

10 Q. Do you see the area to the right that is marked Sivo Brdo?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Do you recognise that as a location of the area known as

13 Sivo Brdo?

14 A. That is also quite an extensive area, the one that people refer

15 to as Sivo Brdo as a matter of principle this should not be south of

16 Lazici because that is what the map shows. This is Lazici and this is

17 Sivo Brdo; it should be behind Lazici but Sivo Brdo should be above

18 Lazici, Mirkovici, and Cinguri [phoen]; and that is the area this

19 mountain range in a manner of speaking that is normally referred to as

20 Sivo Brdo.

21 MR. MISETIC: May I ask the court usher to actually mark on the

22 map what he perceives as Sivo Brdo.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Misetic, at the same time, we have to be

24 very careful because places are identified primarily by what you have

25 marked on this map and I take it you did this to the best of your

Page 7441

1 abilities. At the same time, the -- as appears from the witness answers

2 he can locate matters relatively but whether this is the middle of France

3 or the area you say it is, of course, is without thorough studying of the

4 details of such a map, of course are rather adventurous exercise. I hope

5 you are aware of that.

6 MR. MISETIC: Is the issue whether this is in fact the area of

7 Polace?

8 JUDGE ORIE: I take it you have chosen that. But to ask the

9 witness to say where is this, this, this, and this, this, that then of

10 course the witness has not found it on the map as you did it. He sees it

11 and whether it is again the middle of France or the middle of Germany or

12 the place you say it is, which I'm quite inclined to accept it is,

13 requires something I would not expect a witness to be able to do

14 immediately.

15 MR. MISETIC: If can I ask a few more questions.

16 JUDGE ORIE: I'm just putting it this to you. Yes or look at

17 some more details or for example to zoom in on Mirkovici and see whether

18 he recognized the shape of the roads and then [Overlapping speakers] ...

19 MR. MISETIC: That's what I was going to ask, if he recognises

20 the road that starts from the upper left-hand corner and goes down

21 towards the middle of the page and then goes back up to the right and

22 then comes back down.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But then of course a road of this shape you

24 find that in -- could we prepares first zoom in and see with what

25 precision we can look at Mirkovici and to see whether the witness

Page 7442

1 recognises by the shape, the position of the houses, at least one point

2 on this map so that we have a better anchor --

3 MR. MISETIC: That's fine Your Honour.

4 JUDGE ORIE: For the --

5 MR. MISETIC: [Overlapping speakers] ...

6 JUDGE ORIE: We'll have to try and find out whether --

7 MR. MISETIC: Can we zoom it in a little more?

8 Q. Mr. Mirkovic, are you able to identify by looking at this whether

9 this is in fact Mirkovici?

10 A. I'm a bit uncertain about this map. Can you tell me about this

11 blue line? Is this the Split-Knin road or is that the other one?

12 Q. The blue line is something that we drew in to show -- you should

13 ignore that. That is showing Velika Polace. The road you are talking

14 about, I believe, if I can orient the witness, the Split-Knin road is to

15 the left, that road that goes from the middle of the left-hand side of

16 the page --

17 A. The white line, right?

18 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... towards the top of the page?

19 JUDGE ORIE: Could we ask the witness perhaps with the assistance

20 of the usher or by using the cursor to tell us where he thinks the road

21 is which he just mentioned. So not to mark it, but for the time being

22 just to --

23 Witness -- perhaps you guide the witness, Mr. Misetic.

24 MR. MISETIC:

25 Q. Mr. Mirkovic, do you recognise -- this is quite a zoom-in, so I'm

Page 7443

1 not sure he's going to be able to recognize it.

2 JUDGE ORIE: [Overlapping speakers] ... you can zoom out, zoom

3 it out back.

4 MR. MISETIC: [Overlapping speakers] ...

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes we can zoom in and out as --

6 MR. MISETIC:

7 Q. Mr. Mirkovic --

8 JUDGE ORIE: No, I think we should leave it and -- leave it as a

9 whole.

10 MR. MISETIC: Because it a bigger area [Overlapping speakers] ...

11 JUDGE ORIE: Could we have the whole of the -- yes, this picture.

12 MR. MISETIC:

13 Q. Do you see the Knin-Drnis road or the Knin-Split road?

14 A. Knin-Drnis. I didn't get that part. What we're looking at is

15 the Knin-Split road and then on through Polace, the hamlet of Maglovi

16 that is the middle of Polace and then we move on.

17 JUDGE ORIE: One second, please. Would it not as evidence of --

18 of the map but rather as evidence of what the witness apparently

19 recognizes on this map ask him to mark with the marker where he thinks on

20 this map we find the --

21 MR. MISETIC: That's fine. Knin-Split road.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Knin-Split road and then always have to remind the

23 colours is blue for the Defence.

24 MR. MISETIC: Yes.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Could the witness be given a blue pen and could he

Page 7444

1 mark on this map where he recognizes or where he sees the Knin-Split

2 road.

3 Yes, please, you can do it on the screen and then it will appear.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is the Split-Knin road it

5 forks off to the right here for the hamlet of Mirkovic.

6 JUDGE ORIE: And could you tell us what the Knin direction and

7 what is the Split direction? If you put a K at the end of the line which

8 in the direction of Knin; and for Split, it would be ...

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Knin is this way, and Split is this

10 way.

11 JUDGE ORIE: I was just trying to verify to what extent it was a

12 good comprehension of what is on the screen, Mr. Misetic. May I take it

13 that -- do you need further markings?

14 MR. MISETIC: Yes, one more.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed.

16 MR. MISETIC:

17 Q. Mr. Mirkovic, if you could circle the area that is it called

18 Sivo Brdo?

19 A. Circle it? It is a rather broad area and concept to, Sivo Brdo.

20 I will try to show it to you.

21 That's as far as I know. That's what older people used to tell

22 me. These were Sivo Brdo.

23 MR. MISETIC: For the record, the witness drew a half-circle to

24 the right-hand side of the page to indicate Sivo Brdo.

25 Q. Mr. Mirkovic, based on your knowledge if someone were on

Page 7445

1 Sivo Brdo and wanted to go to Knin would they have to take the Knin-Split

2 road and go past Mirkovici?

3 A. Could you please repeat that what do you mean someone is in

4 Sivo Brdo?

5 Q. Hypothetically, if I were in a car and I went as far as I could

6 up Sivo Brdo and decided from there now I want to go to Knin by road,

7 which road would I have to take?

8 A. It's not like there was a road out there. It was a dirt track

9 for tractors, maybe small vehicles, but not passenger vehicles, not nice

10 cars, but you could take the road through Lazici, Mirkovici, and though

11 Bukvet. I don't see Bukvet here, it's just a small hamlet Bukvet to

12 Borovici, Ranici. There's a whole group of those. People made roads

13 themselves. They would go to the woods they would take their cattle

14 there, that sort of thing.

15 Q. Okay.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Misetic may I ask you one question, I heard a

17 couple of time in English translation a pronunciation of Siva Brda rather

18 than Sivo Brdo. Is there any way or singular or plural --

19 MR. MISETIC: Sivo Brdo is one; Siva Brda are the mountains, so

20 it would be [Overlapping speakers] ...

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That might I'm trying to understand. I

22 noticed this and I also noticed that the difference is not for example if

23 you look at page 24, line 22/23 the plural is these were and then it

24 appears Sivo Brdo which apparently is the singular.

25 MR. MISETIC: It is correct.

Page 7446

1 JUDGE ORIE: Whereas in the words were spoken as.

2 MR. MISETIC: Siva Brda.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Siva Brda so that might also explain some of the

4 confusion and some of the corrections.

5 MR. MISETIC: Yes.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that's clear.

7 MR. MISETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

9 MR. MISETIC: Thank you. If we could just leave this on the

10 screen for a moment.

11 Q. Was there a, and I will use the B/C/S word and the English word

12 because there's some difficulty in the translation, I believe a zadruga,

13 which is spelled Z-A-D-R-U-G-A or in English, the best we could come up

14 with was cooperative hall in Mala Polace, that you're aware of? Do you

15 know where the zadruga was there Mala Polace?

16 A. Yes. There were several different places those were just shops.

17 Q. Were you familiar with the zadruga in Maglovi?

18 A. No, there wasn't one in Maglovi. I think it was right in the

19 middle of the village where the monument was, the culture hall. It was

20 right between the two hamlets Maglova and Milivojevici.

21 Q. Would that be between within the --

22 A. Where you wrote Maglovi. This road to Knin, to the left where it

23 says Maglovi that is Maglovi to the right heading towards Knin that is

24 Milivojevici.

25 Q. So would the cooperative hall have been on the right-hand side of

Page 7447

1 the road in Milivojevici?

2 A. What I'm telling you is this, between Maglova and Milivojevici

3 between these two hamlets, you can't say it was on neither side

4 specifically. It was right in the middle.

5 Q. Are you aware of a meeting that took place in that meeting, the

6 zadruga in that area on the 4th of August that was held between

7 representatives of the hamlets of Polace and the civil defence of the

8 RSK?

9 A. First I hear of that.

10 Q. Well, you said in one of your statements - let me find it -

11 paragraph 6 of your 2007 statement. You say: "We were not told to

12 leave. However, later friends told me there were teams of people coming

13 to some villages around Knin telling people to pack up and evacuate."

14 Can you explain a little bit who you heard this from, and what

15 you heard?

16 A. When we arrived Serbia some people arrived three days later, some

17 five, some 20, it was an arduous journey before we got there; and then we

18 would meet people a month later, six months later. We would talk about

19 what had become of us, how we left and who had told them, and I can't

20 remember specifically but I know for sure that around [indiscernible]

21 there was a group, or at least that is what we were told at the time

22 meaning I didn't hear this myself, that people were being evacuated and

23 were leaving. I said we were at home. Nobody told us anything we didn't

24 know and now we realized that people from Cetina, Civljane, and Vrlika

25 were leaving and they were taking this road that you marked. We from our

Page 7448

1 hamlet were looking at this. The distance being perhaps 400 meters, 200

2 or 250 meters as the crow flies.

3 MR. MISETIC: Your Honour, I'm going to have to clarify something

4 because I believe the witness mentioned Maglovi in the answer and it is

5 not in the transcript so I would like to follow up with him on that.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please do so.

7 MR. MISETIC:

8 Q. In your last answer, Mr. Mirkovic, you mentioned that people told

9 you about something in Maglovi. Can you clarify that, please, because it

10 wasn't picked up by the transcript.

11 A. I don't quite understand. What do you want me to say about

12 Maglovi? Whether I said that?

13 Q. I believe you had said something to the effect of that you heard

14 that people had been in Maglovi and had said something --

15 A. No, no, I didn't say that. It just seemed that way to you. You

16 just heard it that way.

17 MR. MISETIC: Your Honour, I will tender this exhibit. This is

18 an page after this, which I do not need now based on the witness's

19 answers so I will tender the exhibit that is marked.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Before doing so, would there be an

21 opportunity, the witness has told us several times about Milivojevici.

22 MR. MISETIC: Yes.

23 JUDGE ORIE: And could we invite the witness to mark with a

24 letter M where he finds Milivojevici on this map.

25 Do I then understand that Milivojevici is in the same area

Page 7449

1 although at the other side of the road, compared to Maglovi?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for that.

4 And -- yes. That makes it clear for me.

5 MR. MISETIC: Thank you.

6 MR. WAESPI: No objection, Mr. President.

7 JUDGE ORIE: No objections. Map, one page marked by the witness,

8 Mr. Registrar.

9 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that becomes exhibit number D722.

10 JUDGE ORIE: D722 is admitted into evidence.

11 MR. MISETIC:

12 Q. Mr. Mirkovic, did you hear at any point about a meeting that was

13 held in the zadruga in Milivojevici in which the civil Defence told the

14 leaders of the hamlets to evacuate the civilian population?

15 A. No, never. This is the first time that I hear of it, from you.

16 Because these people there would have loved had someone told them you

17 know you should pick up and leave because this and this is going to

18 happen, but nothing of that sort happened, and this is the first time

19 that I hear of it.

20 Q. Now, in your statement, as I mentioned before you said that

21 people couldn't go through Grahovo but instead went through Lika to Srb

22 and further on. Why would people want to go to Grahovo?

23 A. The reason I mentioned that was to describe which way we took,

24 because if you were heading towards Bosnia, everyone was going Knin,

25 Grahovo, Drvar, Petrovac, and Banja Luka, that direction. No one went by

Page 7450

1 Lika. That is it the only reason I mentioned that. There was no other

2 reason.

3 Q. Okay.

4 MR. MISETIC: If we could put the map that the witness marked

5 back on the screen, please.

6 Q. Did you see ARSK forces on the evening of the 4th or the morning

7 of the 5th in and around the area of Polace?

8 A. I didn't see, I just saw these columns of tractors and trucks and

9 cars, convoys people were walking. There was no army anywhere, and

10 people were wondering where the army was in fact. There was no one, no

11 military, no one.

12 MR. MISETIC: Mr. Registrar may I call up 1D04-0043, please.

13 This is again for the benefit of the Trial Chamber, the book of the RSK

14 General Milisav Sekulic. This is an excerpt, begins at page -- sorry.

15 192 and 193 in the original. 1D44-012 in the English and 1D44-0042 for

16 the B/C/S.

17 THE INTERPRETER: Could all the microphones but the witness's

18 please be switched off.

19 MR. MISETIC: We can start at the bottom.

20 Q. This is General Sekulic reporting on the activities of General

21 Milan Celeketic on Nebojsa Popovic commander of the 1st Light Vrlika

22 Brigade on the 4th of August. And in the English, I think it should be

23 -- towards the top of the English, please. In the English. Oh, sorry,

24 towards the bottom of the English; I apologise and it is the section that

25 begins under number 3 in the B/C/S. No, sorry, above number 3. Talks

Page 7451

1 about General Celeketic appointed Captain Popovic as commander of the 1st

2 Light Brigade Vrlika and continues on down:

3 "The enemy artillery relentlessly pounded the territory of Vrlika

4 municipality not knowing what was happening on the Dinara axis, Captain

5 Popovic went to the forward line of defence on Dinara and issued tasks

6 for defence on reserve posts. At night between 4 and 5 August ..."

7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. --

8 MR. WAESPI: I think the B/C/S is obviously the previous page,

9 number 2.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes it came into my mind as well.

11 MR. MISETIC: [Overlapping speakers] ...

12 JUDGE ORIE: 4th and 5th of August. Yes, we will have to move up

13 to the top of the page in B/C/S to see whether. No it seems not --

14 MR. MISETIC: Enemy artillery is it the -- [Overlapping speakers]

15 ...

16 JUDGE ORIE: Enemy artillery.

17 MR. MISETIC: I will start at enemy artillery.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, because you started earlier higher up.

19 MR. MISETIC: [Overlapping speakers] ...

20 JUDGE ORIE: Fine.

21 MR. MISETIC:

22 "The enemy artillery relentlessly pounded the territory of Vrlika

23 municipality. Not knowing what was happening on the Dinara axis, Captain

24 Popovic went to the forward line of defence on Dinara and issued tasks

25 for defence on Dinara and issued tasks for defence on reserve posts. At

Page 7452

1 night between 4 and 5 August, the brigade pulled out to Polace, Sivo

2 Brdo," and that is it a Z in the English and if you look in the B/C/S,

3 Your Honours, it is should be Polace. That's an error.

4 "Most of the men willfully abandoned the brigade and went to

5 their homes to get their families. The remaining troops were retreating

6 with the equipment toward Knin but due to lack of fuel, they left the

7 vehicles and therefore the equipment. Popovic arrived in Petrovac with

8 part of the command, weapons and equipment via Padjene and Srb."

9 Now, if we can go back now to the map, the previous exhibit that

10 was admitted into evidence.

11 Now, according to General Celeketic's book recounting the

12 statement of Captain Popovic, on the evening of the 4th and the morning

13 of the 5th he pulled out the first Light Infantry Brigade Vrlika to Sivo

14 Brdo. And then evacuated his equipment, at least portions of his

15 equipment and personnel out to Knin and on to Petrovac. You were there

16 on the evening of the 4th in Mirkovici, you saw ARSK troops in and around

17 Sivo Brdo, did you not?

18 A. We did not see anyone and we can't really see anyone from

19 Mirkovici because it is in a depression as compared to Sivo Brdo which

20 was higher up so we couldn't see anyone; and I don't see why you are

21 reading something that someone wrote in a book, because from 1990 onwards

22 when the events in Yugoslavia broke out, no one has written the truth

23 about Yugoslavia, so I don't understand what you're read to go me.

24 This man wrote the book to sell it. Because wouldn't it be nice

25 if people only wrote the truth and not just anything in order to sell the

Page 7453

1 book, regardless of whether that really transpired or not.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mirkovic, the book has been written. It

3 describes a situation close to your village, and Mr. Misetic can ask

4 questions about it and if you say, and that's how I understand your

5 answer to be, This is not what I saw, then I'm not convinced that what

6 the book says is the truth, then please -- please focus on what you have

7 seen, what you have heard, and don't bother too much on why people may

8 write things that are not all the -- in accordance with the truth and why

9 Mr. Misetic asks these questions to you.

10 Please proceed, Mr. Misetic.

11 MR. MISETIC: Thank you, Your Honour. I will tender -- one

12 moment, Your Honour.

13 [Defence counsel confer]

14 MR. MISETIC: Your Honour, the last time we used portions of this

15 book we told the Court that we would translate several chapters through

16 it through CLSS. That has now been done. We have the -- I think it is

17 three chapters of the book translated. They are here. Portions of it

18 have been used before but for ease of reference in the future we would

19 tender all three chapters of it so we don't have to admit portions of the

20 book at various stages.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Waespi.

22 MR. WAESPI: Obviously there is a thin link to the witness but as

23 a bar table motioning, I don't have an objection.

24 MR. MISETIC: [Overlapping speakers] ...

25 JUDGE ORIE: Let's not discuss at this moment the weight of the

Page 7454

1 document. There are later stages where this can be done.

2 Of course my hesitation at this moment is that we admit into

3 evidence apparently quite a volume of evidence, which of course we

4 haven't seen, but since there's no --

5 MR. MISETIC: Actually, if can I correct that. We have gone

6 through many portions of this translation through a protected witness, if

7 the Court will recall, several portions of the chapters are not

8 translated. It just now all been put in three chapters.

9 JUDGE ORIE: I was not aware that the total volume would not be

10 larger because you are also referring to what we might expect in the

11 future.

12 MR. MISETIC: That is also the case, but we'll refer back to it.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger.

14 MR. TIEGER: It occurs to me, Your Honour, that the practice with

15 the bar table submissions has been to indicate those particular portions

16 or aspects of the submission that are relevant, both to guide the Court

17 and the parties which would make our job easier in going through the

18 volume of material. I don't mean to --

19 JUDGE ORIE: No, what happens Mr. Tieger is quite surprising.

20 Mr. Misetic introduces a book through a witness, and other portions of

21 that book have been introduced through witnesses as well. Since

22 Mr. Waespi now uses the word I consider it a bar table, you immediately

23 now switch to what is the guidance of the Chamber for really bar table

24 evidence, that is evidence which is not introduced through a witness but

25 just on itself, that all apparently as a result of Mr. Waespi's comment

Page 7455

1 that link with this witness was thin, and where Mr. Misetic has explained

2 to us that there are links with other witnesses as well.

3 MR. TIEGER: I leave that to the Court, Your Honour and I didn't

4 mean to focus on a formality. That wasn't the issue, it is just in the

5 context of bar table submissions it seemed a way to aide both the parties

6 and the Court in identifying what might otherwise appear to be voluminous

7 material at least navigating its way through there. If it is not helpful

8 here, that is no problem. If it seems like a useful approach to larger

9 volumes of material I suggest it for that purpose.

10 MR. MISETIC: Your Honour.

11 JUDGE ORIE: I am more or less in the air at this moment because

12 I haven't seen it. I don't know exactly what total volume is. I don't

13 know of what is now presented has been dealt with earlier through other

14 witnesses or through this witness. If the parties would be in a position

15 to together to look at what is now presented, what chapters, and then

16 give a shared description of what these chapters are about in if not in

17 one-liners then perhaps in two-liners so that we have the guidance, and,

18 at the same time it is not the same as the purely bar table evidence

19 which we discussed before and for which we gave guidance.

20 MR. MISETIC: Your Honour, if I could just respond.

21 First, this is far from a bar table submission. There are

22 various points that were actually led on direct by the Prosecution

23 regarding military targets on the 4th, regarding presence of troops on

24 the road, whether there were any military in the area, et cetera, whether

25 a witness agrees with the Defence is not -- on a document in

Page 7456

1 cross-examination is not the test to see whether it is admissible or

2 whether it is bar table. If I could also just add this one point.

3 None of the chapters that we are tendering are things that were

4 not previously tendered. We can pull the Defence exhibit numbers that

5 have been admitted. All we're doing is taking the chapters that deal

6 specifically with Operation Storm, putting them in one place so that we

7 can refer back to them instead three pages here, five pages here, et

8 cetera; and quite frankly, it's for the benefit of all the parties to

9 have the full context of what we're talking about but I will be happy to

10 sit down with them and work through it, but I don't see the need to break

11 down every page of a book to see the relevance.

12 JUDGE ORIE: I'm not talking about the page of book, but if you

13 say it is chapter 3 pages so-and-so describing page so-and-so there or

14 chapter describing event there, then that might be of guidance for the

15 Chamber as well, later to consult the -- to look at this evidence in a

16 focussed way.

17 If there's -- if my suggestion -- it is not more than a

18 suggestion could be followed, that would be appreciated.

19 MR. TIEGER: I think Mr. Misetic's clarification is helpful. I

20 think if we get together quickly we can resolve this.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for your efforts in this respect.

22 MR. MISETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

24 MR. MISETIC: Thank you.

25 Q. With respect to the question of -- or actually, let me take you

Page 7457

1 through the break now with a few follow-up questions.

2 It's true, Mr. Mirkovic, at the beginning of your witness

3 statement you said you thought that the Serbian troops were going to

4 defend you, that on the evening of the 4th you saw on the roads and you

5 heard that Serbian forces were on the road and were in fact leaving the

6 area and that given that your -- you thought Serbian forces were going to

7 defend you when you found out that the Serbian forces were evacuating,

8 you decided to evacuate as well. Isn't that correct?

9 A. No, sir. I did not see those troops. I said that I saw columns

10 moving, but as we set off in the evening, around 9.30 or 10.00, on the

11 way, we were travelling in a passenger vehicle, and we overtook a

12 military truck. That's all. In other words, on the road from Polace --

13 between Polace and Knin this is where it happened. Whether there were

14 one, two, or three vehicles, I can't really recall anymore because I

15 didn't really pay heed. All I wanted to do at that time was just leave

16 from there.

17 Q. At paragraph 9 of your 2007 statement, you say that when you got

18 to Serbia the police were directing you to Kosovo.

19 Can you describe what happened when you arrived Serbia, how were

20 they directing you to Kosovo, why, if you know.

21 A. I don't know, but there was police on the sides of the road and

22 they were directing us where to go, and later on, I learned from people

23 that I met that some of them were directed towards Kosovo, and there were

24 some families who left for Kosovo.

25 Why? I wouldn't know. Perhaps they had accommodations for more

Page 7458

1 people there, or something to that effect.

2 Q. Well, you say in the statement: I removed my licence plates so

3 the police did not know where I was coming from and left the highway.

4 You removed your licence plates, sir, because you knew that the

5 Serbian authorities wanted you to go to Kosovo. Isn't that correct?

6 A. No. I had already realized that they were directing traffic,

7 that they wouldn't allow people to get off the highway. So what did I

8 do, because I had Knin registration plates, I removed the front plate,

9 and then I just got off the road. Nobody really checked me, and maybe

10 it's also because I was lucky there was this good man who wasn't really

11 paying much attention, because were he more weary maybe he wouldn't let

12 me just go on; and that's how I got to Belgrade.

13 Q. What did you think would happen to you if you left the Knin

14 plates on your car?

15 A. I don't know. Some people drove off towards Kosovo, and some

16 found a way - I don't know what way - to remain in Serbia. Serb proper.

17 Q. Again, my question is what -- what did you think would happen if

18 the plates remained on your car?

19 A. At that moment, I wasn't really thinking, but I had a sister in

20 Belgrade, so all I could think was I should reach my sister where I could

21 find shelter for a while until I found a place where I could live with my

22 family. I wasn't thinking anything really.

23 Q. Is it safe to say, Mr. Mirkovic, that you thought if you kept the

24 Knin plates on your car that the Serbian authorities wouldn't let you go

25 to Belgrade to your sister's place?

Page 7459

1 A. Well, this did happen to some people. It didn't happen to me, so

2 this is what I did. I got off the road and I found -- finally I found a

3 way to my sister. To my sister's place.

4 Some people drove towards Kragujevac, Valjevo, Kraljevo, Cacack,

5 but as for Belgrade itself, which is where I managed to get through to,

6 there were all these cars where on the outskirts and they were stopped

7 there, and they weren't allowed to get in.

8 MR. MISETIC: Your Honour, there would be a good time for a

9 break. I'm going to change topics.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Misetic could you give us any impression

11 as to what to expect?

12 MR. MISETIC: Less than half an hour, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Other parties.

14 MR. KAY: No questions Your Honour.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. --

16 MR. MIKULICIC: Depends on Mr. Misetic's questioning. I will

17 probably have half an hour.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That means that we will finish most likely

19 within the next session. I can inform the parties I don't know whether

20 the reasons have been communicated already but that the Prosecution has

21 no other witness for this afternoon available. And that matters are

22 uncertain for tomorrow as well. Is that well understood?

23 MR. WAESPI: Yes, this is it correct. In fact, it appears that

24 the witness has a serious medical condition and that she will not even be

25 able to testify tomorrow. That's what I just heard.

Page 7460

1 JUDGE ORIE: So the uncertainty appears to develop in the

2 direction of certainty of not being available.

3 We will have a break and we will resume at a quarter past 4.00.

4 --- Recess taken at 3.49 p.m.

5 --- On resuming at 4.21 p.m.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Misetic, please proceed.

7 MR. MISETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

8 Q. Mr. Mirkovic, in the months prior to Operation Storm, did

9 Mala Polaca have M-77, 128-millimetre rocket systems?

10 A. I don't know about those systems. When I was in the JNA, I was a

11 cook. Therefore, I'm not familiar with these rocket systems.

12 Q. Did you see anything that would like a rocket system, regardless

13 of whether you could identify the type?

14 A. I don't know about those. The roads that I took, I saw nothing

15 along those.

16 Q. You are aware, are you not, of a depot in Polace that housed two

17 T-34 tanks, are you not?

18 A. I never heard of anything like that in Polace. No depot or

19 anything like that.

20 Q. In June of 1995, you must have seen a check-point that was set up

21 on the Knin-Split road in Polace by the ARSK. Isn't that correct?

22 A. What year?

23 Q. June 1995.

24 A. No. I didn't see that at all. There was no check-point along

25 the road in Polace, not along the Knin road. I took that road every day,

Page 7461

1 or perhaps every third day, but I never saw a check-point there.

2 Q. From the time the war began in 1991 through Operation Storm, did

3 you hear the sound of rockets being launched from Polace on to Croatian

4 towns, such as Split?

5 A. No. I heard nothing from Polace.

6 MR. MISETIC: Your Honour, I'd like to show the witness some

7 documents which I propose that I show as a group and then ask him a few

8 follow-up questions for the sake of efficiency.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Waespi, any objection against the proposed --

10 MR. WAESPI: No, Mr. President.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

12 MR. MISETIC: Thank you.

13 Mr. Registrar, may I please have 1D44-0001.

14 Q. Mr. Mirkovic, what I'm going to do is I'm going to show you a

15 series of documents. You don't have to comment on them at this point

16 unless you feel there is something you feel needs to be clarified. But

17 let me just point out a few things to. This is a Croatian intelligence

18 document dated 7 May 1995. And towards the middle of the page you will

19 see the paragraph says:

20 "On the basis of cooperation with the office for the protection

21 of the constitutional order, Zadar, we obtained the follows information."

22 And the last point is:

23 "Two tanks, T-34, were taken out from the depot in Mala Polaca

24 and they were observed entering the village of Vrlika at the ground

25 position and then the coordinate was identified."

Page 7462

1 MR. MISETIC: Your Honour, I tender this and ask that a number be

2 given of to it.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Misetic, I see that some text is stricken out.

4 I, of course, first have to see what is stricken out.

5 Usually the Chamber is not --

6 MR. MISETIC: I will tell you Croatia because it is a security

7 service document produced it to us under their Rule 54 privilege in this

8 way. We don't have any other copy of it.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. That's -- that then explains ... let me just

10 read again the portion you just ...

11 Yes.

12 MR. WAESPI: I don't know whether I already said we don't have an

13 objection.

14 JUDGE ORIE: You want numbers to be assigned immediately.

15 MR. MISETIC: Yes, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.

17 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that becomes Exhibit number D723.

18 JUDGE ORIE: D723 -- I'll just write them down and then you put

19 the questions to the witness and then we'll --

20 MR. MISETIC: That's fine. I can pose the question simply --

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I thought you would provide the series.

22 MR. MISETIC: That's fine, I will.

23 Mr. Registrar, if I could have 1D44-0177.

24 Q. This is a report, a portion of a report from the Split military

25 district command to the minister of Defence, Minister Susak. You don't

Page 7463

1 have the date on it, but from the text you can see that it is at least as

2 of 7 June 1995, reporting on an UNCRO patrol reported to the superior

3 command in Knin that the Serb forces did not allow the patrolling in the

4 Vrlika area.

5 And then second sentence from the end: "It is noted in the

6 report that all patrols heading from the direction of Knin towards Vrlika

7 are being halted at Mala Polaca check-point."

8 MR. MISETIC: Your Honour, I tender this document into evidence.

9 MR. WAESPI: No objections.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.

11 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that becomes exhibit number D724.

12 MR. MISETIC: Mr. Registrar, the next one is 1D44-0179. This is

13 a witness statement given -- or a statement I should just say, a

14 statement dated 9 September 1995 given to the Croatian Ministry of

15 Interior by Slobodan Despanic, who was the company commander of the

16 Vrlika Brigade of the ARSK. It is a long document so we have only taken

17 the portions that are relevant to the issue of Polace. I will skip to

18 the relative portion of this person's statement. He talks about in early

19 1994 the Zagreb agreement was signed according to which the heavy

20 artillery tanks, Howitzers, and guns were withdrawn to the area of the

21 village of Polace, i.e. approximately 15 kilometres away from the combat

22 line.

23 If we go down on that same page in English, which is page 73 of

24 the B/C/S version. Sorry, it's page 70 of the B/C/S version; I

25 apologise. Back one page, please.

Page 7464

1 The beginning sentence I'm just going to read. It says: "At

2 this time, in the beginning of 1995 from the corps commander in Vrlika

3 Colonel Bozo Kostur and Lieutenant-Colonel Radic arrived from Knin to the

4 forward command post of the brigade," and then it goes on.

5 If we can go to the next paragraph, please.

6 No, I mean, I'm sorry, if we could go back in the English and

7 stay on that page, and the next page in the B/C/S.

8 In the middle of --

9 JUDGE ORIE: I have not received the last line in French or ... I

10 may have missed or mixed up the -- the line, if we can go to the next

11 paragraph and what then appears two lines further down and the next page

12 in B/C/S. It's clear that we move on to the next page in B/C/S --

13 MR. MISETIC: Yes.

14 JUDGE ORIE: -- and go back to the last page in English.

15 Please proceed.

16 MR. MISETIC: Yes, thank you.

17 Towards the middle of that paragraph, it says: "In the area of

18 the village of Polace, in the Lazici hamlet, two T-84 tanks and two

19 transporters had been deployed. Two 88-millimetre coastal guns were

20 deployed in the area of the village of Civljane and Cetina."

21 If we could go to the next page in English and page 74 in the

22 B/C/S, please. Okay.

23 It says: "That night we slept in the house of Vuckovic Momcilo

24 where we listened to the news. On 5 August 1995 at around 1000 hours a

25 woman from Vuckovici came to us and said that combats were ongoing in

Page 7465

1 Knin itself. As we realized that the situation we found ourselves in was

2 hopeless, and having heard the message of President Tudjman on Radio

3 Zagreb, we decided to discard our weapons in the Polace area and we set

4 out carrying a white flag with the aim to surrender. We all wanted to

5 the surrender, except for Mjilkovic Mirko, aka Koca, who threatening us

6 to be traitors, escaped to nearby forest, while Vuckovic Momcilo returned

7 to his house in Polace, saying that he would wait there for the HV

8 soldiers and surrender."

9 And then the bottom of that page in English, and page 75 of the

10 B/C/S.

11 Q. In the B/C/S version, sir, at that paragraph that starts [B/C/S

12 spoken], which in English starts at the paragraph when he came to the

13 brigade command in Vrlika, in the middle of that paragraph it says:

14 "He also boasted showing at the map that with the Oganj he had

15 all the targets directly in front of us and that almost all Croatian

16 towns were in the range of the Orkans. The fire on Muc was Split was

17 executed by Zeljko Tisma, yet the names of the other Orkan crew members

18 are unknown to me. The area of Muc and Split are fired at from the

19 Polace area?

20 Your Honour, I ask that this exhibit be marked and tendered into

21 evidence.

22 MR. WAESPI: I think I have to object to this one unlike the

23 previous documents which were contemporaneous documents on their face had

24 some authentication, this we know it is a gentlemen called Slobodan

25 Despanic, as represented by counsel we don't know who this gentleman is,

Page 7466

1 by whom he was interviewed, we know some kind of Croatian authorities,

2 and so I don't think -- it can be put these parts to the witness and see

3 what he says, but the document itself, a witness statement, I don't think

4 it should be admitted.

5 MR. MISETIC: Your Honour, I disagree I think I identified

6 Mr. Despanic that he was the company commander in the Vrlika brigade. I

7 gave the date of the statement which means it is contemporaneous as 9

8 September 1995. I said interviewed by the Croatian MUP. That is how the

9 document is identified in e-court and it is a document has been produced

10 through us through the Croatian state archives as are most of the other

11 documents in this case. Concerning authenticity there is nothing about

12 the document that has been produced that is any different than other

13 document produced either by the Prosecution or the Defence in this case

14 and I would submit there is no reason not to admit it into evidence.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Waespi some of your concerns seem to have been

16 dealt with. Contemporaneous.

17 MR. WAESPI: Yes. But it is a big difference between a document

18 that was compiled and the witness statement. I don't know under which

19 circumstances what the MUP had in mind within a week or weeks after --

20 after the events of getting information out of this gentleman. I just

21 see it is a huge difference between the witness statement. We don't see

22 the cover page, we don't see who the persons from the MUP who were

23 present eliciting that information. For me it's a big difference between

24 this statement and the normal document.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Misetic.

Page 7467

1 MR. MISETIC: We will provide the entire document to the

2 Prosecution. I will say that given that the Prosecution first let me say

3 that given the Prosecution has admitted UNCIVPOL witness statements and

4 other similar-type witness statements was taken by a different entity

5 contemporaneously I don't see the objection as being well founded.

6 Secondly these are all issues that go to weight and not to

7 admissibility of the document anyway.

8 MR. WAESPI: I think each of these CIVPOL documents were

9 accompanied by people, witnesses who could talk about the procedures

10 under which these documents were taken. I'm looking forward to the

11 Defence case to see MUP officials from the Croatian authorities to talk

12 about these witness statements and then they can be introduced at that

13 time.

14 MR. MISETIC: Your Honour, I --

15 JUDGE ORIE: Well, whether in every respect an accurate

16 description of the documents that were tendered by the Prosecution is

17 still to be seen. If I think about, for example, I think it was P320

18 attachments to -- a matter which has not been settled yet.

19 MR. MISETIC: I believe, Your Honour --

20 JUDGE ORIE: Could we do the following: Some of the concerns may

21 be --

22 MR. MISETIC: May I just make one point, Your Honour?

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

24 MR. MISETIC: I would draw Mr. Waespi's attention to Witness 136,

25 I believe was her number, the first witness in this case where Mr. Waespi

Page 7468

1 tendered witness statements because she was the translator. Mr. Flynn,

2 who wasn't present for many of these HRAT witness statements they were

3 tendered through Mr. Flynn several such witness statements where just

4 because they were HRAT documents they were tendered he wasn't even

5 present for the witness interviews.

6 JUDGE ORIE: I suggest the following at this moment. Apparently

7 one of the things that is it bothering Mr. Waespi is that he doesn't have

8 the -- the whole of the document, therefore I suggest that you provide

9 Mr. Waespi with the documents in its entirety and then perhaps also

10 discuss with him whether the whole of the document or just these portions

11 you would like to tender whether there is in objections to see to what

12 extent you a can agree on the matter. For the time being, I think you

13 have read the whole portion of this document, which is relevant for the

14 question you want to put to the witness.

15 MR. MISETIC: Yes.

16 JUDGE ORIE: That's part of the record. Therefore, at this

17 moment, I'll not invite Mr. Registrar to -- to assign a number to it.

18 Leave it until you've spoken and then there's still an opportunity for

19 you to re-tendered it and we know whether it is just this portion,

20 whether there would be any further -- I'm looking at your expression

21 Mr. Misetic. It is my suggestion surprises you.

22 MR. MISETIC: I'm only concerned that I forget about it later on

23 that's why I told my case manager not to forget to come back to the

24 issue. That's all.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that is imaginable. Another way of dealing

Page 7469

1 with the matter is that we assign a number to it at this moment. That we

2 leave it marked for identification and we hear later from you and then at

3 least it on the MFI list which is an advantage and a disadvantage because

4 it is one more.

5 MR. MISETIC: I understand, Your Honour.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar, the document as it is -- at this

7 moment present by Mr. Misetic would be number ...

8 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that becomes Exhibit number D725

9 marked for identification.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, and it keeps that status until the parties have

11 come back to us.

12 MR. MISETIC: Thank you, Your Honour. Okay.

13 Q. Mr. Mirkovic, I showed you several documents there. First you

14 saw the note about the check-point being set up in Polace where UNCRO

15 allegedly could not pass. Does that refresh your recollection about a

16 check-point having been set up on the road from the direction of Knin

17 towards Vrlika by the RSK army?

18 A. No. It doesn't, because there was no check-point. I saw

19 UNPROFOR vehicles drive through Polace every day. That's true.

20 Q. You also saw a document that says in -- after the signing of the

21 Zagreb agreement in 1994 heavy weapons were withdrawn to the village of

22 Polace. You are obviously familiar with Polace. Can you tell us where

23 heavy weapons in the village of Polace may have been stored?

24 A. I don't remember there being any heavy weapons at all in 1994 and

25 1995. But perhaps the Polace that you have in mind is the one near

Page 7470

1 Benkovci because there is another village named Polace.

2 Q. I'm talking about the Polace near Sivo Brdo.

3 A. Yes. I didn't see any heavy weapons there, the tanks or whatever

4 it was that you mentioned, rockets, none of that.

5 Q. And the portion that talks about Mr. Zeljko Tisma and Orkans

6 being fired on Muc and Split from the Polace area, do you recall the

7 sound of outgoing rocket fire from the village of Polace?

8 A. No, I don't.

9 Q. Okay. You said you were mobilized several times. Where were you

10 deployed to?

11 A. I was deployed to Knin and also Kosovo. That's where I was.

12 Q. When you referred to Kosovo, are you referring to a village close

13 to Knin?

14 A. Yes. Yes, that village, the village of Kosovo.

15 Q. We also saw in this statement where Mr. Despanic talks about how

16 he and his group surrendered in Polace on the 5th of August. You had

17 already been gone by that point. Did you hear subsequently from anyone

18 about with RSK soldiers being present in Polace on the 5th of August and

19 surrendering to the HV on or about that time?

20 A. No, I didn't hear any of it, nor do I know who Despanic was, nor

21 did anyone actually surrendered. I don't know. Maybe someone did do

22 that, but my problems were far greater when I arrived Serbia, the

23 problems I had to think about, so I have to say I'm sorry for every

24 person who was killed or who suffered, whether Croat or Serb, but at the

25 time when I was in Serbia, I had so many problems that I couldn't think

Page 7471

1 about others. I just had to fight for the survival for my own family and

2 myself.

3 Q. Mr. Mirkovic, did you hear subsequently the fact that there were

4 ARSK soldiers, such as Mjilkovic Mirko who refused to surrender and

5 escaped to the nearby forest in the Polace area?

6 A. No, I didn't. As I already said, I didn't have the time nor the

7 wish to listen to stories about who did what and how. So when you -- if

8 you were in my position, had you arrived in Serbia without anything, I

9 wonder whether you would be thinking about what to do to feed your family

10 or about whether somebody had surrendered to someone or not. In other

11 words, I was absolutely not interested in those kinds of stories.

12 Q. Not having been present in Polace from the 5th of August onwards,

13 you don't know whether there were ARSK soldiers still in the Polace area

14 who had still refused to surrender. Is that correct?

15 A. That's correct, I was not there. I left on the 4th of August.

16 Q. And you also don't know whether there were any remaining ARSK

17 soldiers in Mirkovici from the 5th of August onwards that refused to

18 surrender. Isn't that correct?

19 A. Well, according to the woman who told me about these things, this

20 woman who had survived as -- in Mirkovici, Smiljana Mirkovic of the

21 people there, Smiljana Mirkovic, Jovo Mirkovic and Petar Mirkovic had

22 remained. And Petar's son, Milan, he too stayed back. These were

23 unarmed people and if you think that people like that could defend

24 themselves, well, then, I don't know.

25 Q. I'm not talking about people like that. I'm talking about people

Page 7472

1 like Mirkovic Mirko who were combatants and you don't know whether people

2 such as Mjilkovic Mirko were in Mirkovici on the 5th of August and

3 thereafter. Isn't that correct?

4 A. Can you please clarify whom you mean? Who is this Mirko

5 Mirkovic? I'd like to know.

6 Q. Mr. Mirko Milkovic I said.

7 A. Yes, I'm listening.

8 Q. I read you a portion from a statement saying that there was a

9 group of ARSK soldiers, some of whom surrendered in Polace, others who

10 refused to surrender and went into the forest in the Polace area. My

11 question to you again --

12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Misetic, is that an accurate description of what

13 you just read? It was about surrender. One person who wanted to stay in

14 the woods and wait and the other one going home.

15 MR. MISETIC: No, there was one who went home.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, and one who stayed in the woods.

17 MR. MISETIC: Escaped, sorry; yes, correct, Your Honour.

18 JUDGE ORIE: [Overlapping speakers] ... only the one who went to

19 the woods, from what I remember you reading said that he refused to

20 surrender, whereas the other just said, I'll go home. Nothing about

21 whether or not to surrender.

22 I want accurate --

23 MR. MISETIC: That's fine I can read it back verbatim:

24 "We all wanted to surrender except for Mjilkovic Mirko, aka Koca,

25 who threatening us to be traitors, escapes to the nearby forest --" I'm

Page 7473

1 sorry, I was correct, Your Honour. That's Mirko Mirkovic. The second

2 man is -- while Vuckovic Momcilo to return to his house on Polace saying

3 that he would wait there for the HV soldiers and surrender.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, others did not want to surrender.

5 MR. MISETIC: Okay.

6 JUDGE ORIE: There was one who went home and would surrender,

7 ones that would arrive and there was only one who said, I will not

8 surrender, you are traitors, I'll go to the woods. So it wasn't an

9 accurate --

10 MR. MISETIC: Correct. We have one person who said he refused to

11 surrender, one person who said he was going home, but we don't know

12 whether he surrendered. My question to you again is, you have no

13 knowledge of whether these two individuals or others were in the village

14 of Mirkovici and had, as much 5 August, 1995, and thereafter, refused to

15 surrender to the HV, correct?

16 A. The man that you are calling Mirko Mjilkovic, I don't know of

17 this man. He is not from Polace. The other man, Momcilo Vuckovic this

18 is an older man I think he was born in 1930 something and why would he be

19 in Mirkovici when his house was about 600 meters away from Mirkovici.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mirkovic, the question simply was whether you

21 had any personal knowledge of persons, such as the two persons mentioned,

22 whether they would have been after you had left in Mirkovici on let's

23 say, the 5th of August, whether you have any knowledge of that.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, sir. I don't know anything

25 about that. I have never heard anything about it.

Page 7474

1 JUDGE ORIE: Those who told you what had happened after you had

2 left, including the events in relation to your mother, did they ever tell

3 you anything about ARSK soldiers being present, or not being present, in

4 Mirkovici, after you had left? Did anyone ever tell you anything about

5 that?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, sir. All they talked about was

7 about the Croatian soldiers who arrived in Mirkovici on the 5th of

8 August already, and I think on the 5th, or the 6th of August, they took

9 Jovo Mirkovic with them to Vrlika and then to the Lora prison in Split

10 and in Mirkovici at that point were my mother, Smiljana Mirkovic, and as

11 for any other people or any members of the military, the Serbian army, I

12 don't know. I've never heard anything about that. These people who came

13 on the first days, they told, that's what Smiljana recounted, they told

14 these people who stayed back just stay at home, feed your cattle, no one

15 will touch you, and that's how it actually was in the beginning, and on

16 the 12th, that is when the event took place.

17 All I know about the whole story is this. I don't have any other

18 knowledge.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Misetic.

20 MR. MISETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

21 Q. Mr. Mirkovic, turning your attention to paragraph 8 of your 2007

22 statement you mention that when you reached Banja Luka we saw

23 representatives of our authorities in Krajina who had returned from

24 negotiations in Geneva.

25 Would you please describe who you met with, who else was present,

Page 7475

1 what was the discussion about, and where this took place?

2 A. Well, if you want me to tell you exactly where this happened, I

3 don't really know what part of Banja Luka it was in. It was in

4 Banja Luka. As for representative of the Serbian Krajina, I saw there

5 the late Milan Babic, Lazo Matsura [phoen] they said that he had returned

6 from Geneva, and also Milje Prijic of whom they also said that he

7 returned from Geneva, where they were discussing the Z-4 Plan, and this

8 plan was, according to what we ordinary folk knew, was the plan that was

9 offered to the republic of the Serbian Krajina.

10 Q. Was this a big meeting with a lot of people from the --

11 A. What do you mean, meeting? It was not a meeting? These were

12 just people who came to a field, an open field. It wasn't even a square.

13 And I don't know how these men happened to be there. Maybe when their

14 convoy was directed off the road. I think Mr. Matsura was looking for

15 his wife, and he was asking the people in the convoy what was going on

16 and then they asked what was happening, because they were saying we are

17 just back from Geneva, and we were negotiating there. So this is what

18 I'm telling you is what I saw and heard myself. This is what I saw then.

19 Q. Were these individuals, these representatives of the authorities

20 in Krajina, were they addressing all of the people in the field, or was

21 this just something that you heard as these representatives were passing?

22 A. No. As they were passing, there was a group of people, I don't

23 know, maybe a couple of thousand people, and maybe there were some other

24 people like that who talked about it in some other places, but I don't

25 know, I did not talk to them directly. Someone from our group asked,

Page 7476

1 What are we going to do? And they said they didn't know.

2 But no one had a microphone to address the people who were

3 collected there. This was not a gathering or a rally. It was just a

4 group of people and they were talking about this in this open space.

5 Q. Okay. Mr. Mirkovic, concerning the death of your mother, you

6 didn't file any requests with the Croatian authorities until 2004 or

7 2005. Is that correct?

8 A. Probably. When we arrived Belgrade, and when reported to the

9 Red Cross, we first registered with the International Red Cross and then

10 with the Red Cross of Yugoslavia, I think; and we registered there the

11 members of our family who had left, who had arrived Serbia. My mother

12 had stayed behind, at home. And then later on when I heard about my

13 mother's death, then I reported to the same organisations that my mother

14 had been killed.

15 After this, I did not ask about or search for, I thought that

16 somebody from these international organisation would do to that, but at

17 this point, later on, much later, I went to Veritas in Belgrade and they

18 told me that I can submit a request to the Croatian government for an

19 exhumation of my mother's remains. That's when I did that, but up to

20 this moment, nothing has been done. No follow-up, as far as I know.

21 Q. And I just need to confirm roughly the year that you filed that

22 request. Am I correct to say it was 2004 or 2005? Your witness

23 statement, I believe, says two and a half years - let me find it.

24 Paragraph 11 of your 2007 statement you say: "I filed a request about

25 two and a half years ago."

Page 7477

1 Is it correct to say, then, that given that this statement was

2 given in March of 2007, that your request was given sometime in late

3 2004?

4 A. Yes. I can't say exactly what month or what date it was, but you

5 can find that in the organisation, the organisation for the missing

6 people and victims of war. The name of this organisation is Veritas, and

7 you can find this information as to when I filed this request there.

8 Q. Jovo and Smiljana Mirkovic also did not file any complaint with

9 the Croatian authorities that your mother had been murdered. Is that

10 accurate, as far as you know?

11 A. Well, why would they file a complaint? Nobody filed anything.

12 They were just neighbours, and they told me what had happened to my

13 mother. That's all.

14 Q. Okay. Given that your mother was buried by Jovo, do you know

15 prior to the filing of your request in late 2004 whether there had been

16 any notice to the Croatian authorities of the allegation that your mother

17 had been murdered?

18 A. Sir, this is not an alleged murder; it was a murder. And as for

19 whether they were informed or not, I don't know.

20 Q. Okay. With respect to your request for exhumation, who did you

21 file that with?

22 A. I've already said this. To Veritas in Belgrade. And they

23 forwarded this to an organisation in Croatia that was supposed to forward

24 it on. And according to these representatives in Belgrade, they -- there

25 was no information, no new information on this, that nothing had been

Page 7478

1 done in Croatia yet, that it was not something they were dealing with at

2 that point yet.

3 Q. Do you know the name of the organisation in Croatia to whom

4 Veritas was supposed to forward this?

5 A. No, I don't.

6 Q. Did you ever get a receipt or a confirmation letter or any other

7 confirmation from any institution in Croatia that they had received your

8 request for exhumation?

9 A. No. No, I never received anything.

10 Q. Okay. Did you ask the Office of the Prosecutor to see what they

11 could do to conduct an exhumation?

12 A. When they were at my place and when we discussed this, that was

13 one of the things that we talked about as well, and I thought that this

14 whole procedure would be speeded up.

15 Q. Okay.

16 MR. MISETIC: One minute, Your Honour, please.

17 [Defence counsel confer]

18 MR. MISETIC: Thank you, Mr. Mirkovic.

19 Your Honour, have I nothing further.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Misetic.

21 MR. KAY: No questions, Your Honour.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Kay.

23 Mr. Mikulicic.

24 Cross-examination by Mr. Mikulicic:

25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mirkovic, you will now be cross-examined by

Page 7479

1 Mr. Mikulicic, who is counsel for Mr. Markac.

2 MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Mirkovic.

4 A. Good afternoon.

5 Q. On behalf of General Markac's Defence, I will pose a few

6 questions to you.

7 A. Please, go on.

8 Q. Would you please when answering my question, pause before you

9 actually begin so that the interpreters can interpret this into English

10 and French.

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Mr. Mirkovic, could you please tell me what schools did you

13 attend?

14 A. I completed the middle school for catering.

15 Q. Where?

16 A. In Knin.

17 Q. Where did you work, if you did work, after you finished school?

18 A. For a while, I worked at -- on the island of Ugljan for Zelena

19 Punta [phoen] company and also on the island of Hvar, the hotel, a Hvar

20 company. And after that I worked in Knin. I think since 1981 I worked

21 in Knin.

22 Q. What exactly did you do, what kind of work?

23 A. I worked as a waiter.

24 Q. And what schools did your wife finish?

25 A. She completed high school.

Page 7480

1 Q. And your mother?

2 A. She was a housewife. She did not attend school -- actually, she

3 did finish elementary school.

4 Q. Mr. Mirkovic you told us that you served in the army and that you

5 were a cook in the JNA?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. What kind of military duties did you have in the army of Republic

8 of Serbian Krajina when you were mobilized?

9 A. Everyone did or had assignments according to the military

10 speciality that they had in the Yugoslav People's Army.

11 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please repeat the last

12 sentence.

13 MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. Did I understand your answer correctly you were a cook also --

15 JUDGE ORIE: No, no, one second. One second.

16 Could you please put again the last question to the witness and

17 ask him to repeat his answer.

18 MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. We will need to repeat what you have said for interpretation.

20 So my question was, did I understand you correctly that you also

21 worked as a cook during the mobilisation for the army of the Republic of

22 Serbian Krajina?

23 A. Yes, sir.

24 Q. Were you issued any weapon?

25 A. Yes.

Page 7481

1 Q. Could you tell us what kind of weapon?

2 A. I was issued a rifle.

3 Q. Where was your weapon after -- once you were drafted?

4 A. Could you please repeat that question again?

5 Q. Where was your weapon kept when you were not mobilized?

6 A. In the unit where I was assigned.

7 Q. What unit was this and where was its command?

8 A. Its command was in Knin.

9 Q. Mr. Mirkovic, please tell us -- my colleague has just reminded me

10 that you did not reply when I asked you what unit you were serving in.

11 A. I can't remember the name of the unit. I was just in the army.

12 I don't know what you mean when you ask me about the unit.

13 Q. Who was your commander?

14 A. Well, so many years have passed. I really can't recall the name

15 anymore.

16 Q. Sir, how many able-bodied men with military training were there

17 in the Polace area in your assessment?

18 A. You mean how many people lived there over all?

19 Q. Yes.

20 A. I couldn't give you the exact figure.

21 Q. Maybe a ballpark figure then?

22 A. I should do some clarification in order to do that for you. I

23 simply never pondered the issue. I'm here to something else. The

24 thought never crossed my mind that I would be asked questions about this.

25 You see what I mean.

Page 7482

1 Q. Did you perhaps have any friends nearby, near your hamlet in the

2 Polace area?

3 A. Of course I had friends.

4 Q. What about those friends. Were they mobilized like you by the

5 army of the Republic of Serbian Krajina?

6 A. Some were and some weren't. Some were fit for military service,

7 and some weren't. Some dodged it. That's how it was.

8 Q. Do you remember that, on the 31st of July, 1995 President

9 Milan Martic declared a state of war and general mobilization throughout

10 the Republic of Serbian Krajina?

11 A. I don't remember him declaring a state of war. There was a war

12 on and what that meant for us is we couldn't leave the homes, we had

13 nothing to eat or drink, we weren't worrying about him declaring a state

14 of war or anything. But I never heard and that must be the reason.

15 Q. What was the ethnic makeup of the population in your area of

16 residence?

17 A. In my case, that was Polace. The population was entirely

18 orthodox. Over in Knin, 92 per cent Serbs, the rest Catholics.

19 Q. When you talk about these figures or statistics, which period of

20 time do you have in mind? Is that before the hostilities broke out in

21 the area or do you mean after the Republic of Serbian Krajina was

22 established?

23 A. I'm talking about the time of the former Yugoslavia before it

24 broke up in Knin. There were over 92 per cent Serbs that's what my

25 information suggests. Perhaps you have other sources. Polace was always

Page 7483

1 100 percent orthodox. There were no Catholics or Muslims there. No

2 Jews, no one else apart from Serbs.

3 Q. Are aware of what became of the Catholic population the Croats

4 after the Republic of Serbian Krajina was established in the area?

5 A. I heard stories about people leaving some people staying behind,

6 that sort of thing.

7 Q. I'm looking at your 2007 statement. This is it P723,

8 specifically paragraph 5 of your statement as well as paragraph 7 of your

9 statement. You talk about the fact that your wife started crying when

10 the war broke out, and she said that the Ustasha would kill all of you.

11 This is followed in paragraph 7 by the following. You claim that your

12 mother as well said that the Ustashas might as well kill her if they so

13 wished?

14 Mr. Mirkovic, in your family, was it usual for Croats to be

15 referred to as Ustasha?

16 A. It wasn't about Croats, generically speaking, it was about the

17 soldiers milling around our area. They called our soldiers Chetniks and

18 we called theirs Ustashas. That's how both parties referred to each

19 other.

20 Q. It is a derogatory term and a term that was used by your wife and

21 by your mother who was no soldier, nor was she moving around any

22 soldiers, as far as I understand?

23 A. Yes, that's right.

24 Q. Paragraph 7 of your statement, your 2007 statement. You go on to

25 state this. You say you weren't certain if you would be able to leave

Page 7484

1 the Krajina area because you were a man.

2 Can you please elaborate on that?

3 A. Well, for that very reason. I wasn't certain that they would

4 allow any men to leave the area. That's what I was thinking about. When

5 I headed away from home, I was thinking would any of us men be allowed to

6 leave the Krajina, and that's why I told my mother that she should leave

7 with other ladies and other children. When I joined the column, I

8 realized that there was no one checking on anyone else and I saw that

9 this was the end.

10 Q. Mr. Mirkovic you told us a while ago that you had not been

11 mobilized.

12 A. I said I was. I would be on an on-and-off basis. Sometime I was

13 and sometimes I wasn't.

14 Q. If I could just complete my question before you start answering,

15 I would be very grateful for that concession.

16 A. Sure, go ahead, please.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mikulicic, if you introduce a question by

18 stating the testimony of the witness which he finds inaccurate,

19 incorrect, then the witness can interrupt you, Mr. Mikulicic.

20 Please proceed.

21 MR. MIKULICIC: Okay, Your Honour.

22 Q. [Interpretation] All right. Mr. Mirkovic, my question, given

23 what you told us a while ago, that at the start of Operation Storm, the

24 4th of August, 1995, you were not in fact mobilized, why, then, did you

25 believe that men and you as a man would not be allowed to leave the

Page 7485

1 territory of Serbian Krajina?

2 A. I didn't know what thoughts were crossing other people's minds.

3 Someone might have walked up to me and said, You're an able-bodied man,

4 you are now mobilized, you have to stay. All I was thinking about at the

5 time was to -- how to survive this horrible situation.

6 Q. In paragraph 6 you say some friends told you about the villages

7 around Knin and about teams or groups of persons arriving in these

8 villages telling the local population to pack and evacuate. Did they

9 specify which groups of persons these were that were arriving in these

10 villages?

11 A. No names were named, but probably those were people belonging to

12 some local authorities. Like the civil protection or such-like.

13 Probably. They told them to leave. They told them they had to leave

14 their homes.

15 Q. And then, based on your statement, that evening you joined a

16 convoy through Knin.

17 A. That's right.

18 Q. How were you travelling, you and your family?

19 A. We had our own car.

20 Q. Where did you get your fuel?

21 A. It was very difficult to come by fuel in that area. There was a

22 lot of fuel being used up we had some coupons used every month. I'm not

23 sure if that was on a monthly basis or not. Every month, each of us were

24 entitled to a total of 20 litres of fuel and we could get some oil as

25 well to work our land. I saved mine up in order to stop myself from

Page 7486

1 using it all up at once and then I had some still remaining.

2 Q. How far would that take you, a full tank?

3 A. It took me as far as Banja Luka.

4 Q. What about after that?

5 A. After that, there was some petrol stations. They had fuel and

6 everybody was free to go and get some.

7 Q. Can you please explain this. This is something you state in

8 paragraph 8. You say that there would be no turning back that there

9 would be no returning to Krajina and that was after you joined that

10 convoy.

11 A. I saw this long convoy leaving. All these people leaving, no one

12 stopping them. At no point along the road, no one was telling them,

13 Don't go. Stay. I realized then there would be no turning back and that

14 there would be no staying in the area.

15 Q. You say that you were receiving coupons for fuel. Can you please

16 describe the procedure briefly how was this organised and who gave these

17 coupons to you, how were they distributed?

18 A. Those of us who had a vehicle that was registered in an orderly

19 American that went there applied and we each got 20 litres of fuel a

20 month, give or take a fuel. Sometime there is was enough to go around

21 and sometimes not and when I say we got it, I don't mean for nothing. We

22 bought this fuel. And we used these coupons in order to buy fuel from

23 these people. We didn't just get it like that.

24 Q. I see. There was a way to make it possible for you to buy some

25 fuel. Is that right?

Page 7487

1 A. Yes, that's right.

2 Q. However, you still didn't answer my question. Who did you get

3 the coupons from, who distributed them which specific institution or

4 organisation?

5 A. Was the same body that we registered our vehicles with. I'm not

6 sure what it is called it was the SUP, the S-U-P, the police, in other

7 words that was where you would go with your vehicle registration papers

8 and you would then be issued a coupon that was worth 20 litres of fuel

9 and that was that.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mikulicic, the Chamber unanimously is wondering

11 what is the point. Would you either come to your point or move to the

12 next subject.

13 MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. Are you aware of the fact that there was a depo at Polace where

15 fuel was being kept for the eventuality of the evacuation?

16 A. Sir, there is no depot there, there is no petrol station this is

17 just not true there was no place to keep fuel there. Where does one keep

18 fuel? At petrol stations.

19 Q. A while ago, you mentioned the Geneva talks and the Z-4 plan. Do

20 you know about the fact that the authorities of the Republic of Serbian

21 Krajina, specifically Milan Martic, refused this plan that provided for

22 the autonomy of the Republic of Serbian Krajina within Croatia simply by

23 dropping the issue all together even before the talks started and the map

24 was discussed?

25 A. My information about this was the information that I received as

Page 7488

1 an ordinary citizen I knew this was a plan that was being considered but

2 I didn't know specifics. I heard bits of this and bits of that what

3 should have been done and would be done, but simply I wasn't privy to any

4 detail. Just as I didn't read that book by that general wrote therefore

5 you can hardly expect me to say anything about that.

6 Q. Paragraph 11 of your statement dated 2007. This is the

7 exhumation request. This is what you said there. You say that you had

8 heard from some neighbours who had previously return to the village about

9 them seeing civilian police around the place. First of all,

10 Mr. Mirkovic, I'm ever so slightly confused because a minute ago you told

11 my friend Mr. Misetic that no one remained in the village and now you're

12 telling us that you talked to some neighbours who returned to the

13 village. So what does this mean then? Was there anyone living in the

14 village or not?

15 A. No, not in Mirkovici. I'm talking about general Polace area and

16 indeed there were people who eventually returned to the general Polace

17 area. Elderly people who simply went back to die.

18 Q. May I continue? You're telling us about your neighbours seeing

19 civilian police around, that location. I suppose by location you mean

20 Mirkovici, right?

21 A. Yes. The exact location where the remains of my mother were

22 buried.

23 Q. Can you remember the specific people who shared this information

24 with you?

25 A. Why not? Dragoljub Tadorovic, who said that they had been to see

Page 7489

1 him, policeman wearing plain clothes and they also asked about my

2 whereabouts and they also asked him if he knew the whereabouts of my

3 mother's burial site or grave; and he took them to the very spot and

4 pointed it out to them. This man then said -- we know everything we know

5 exactly who killed her. This shouldn't be a problem.

6 I'm just telling you what that man told me. This is hearsay. I

7 didn't hear this myself.

8 Q. I do realize that, but I don't quite realize who said what.

9 A. The policeman wearing civilian clothes, are you listening to me?

10 I'm talking about the policeman who went there and he went to

11 Dragoljub Tadorovic and wanted him to show where we had lived and he

12 wanted to see where my mother had been buried and then this policeman

13 said, We know exactly who killed her. There shouldn't be a problem with

14 this.

15 Q. Having heard this, did you maybe go back to the police to see if

16 you could find out more about their information. You were at one point

17 told about the police knowing who the perpetrator of the crime against

18 your mother was?

19 A. Which police are you talking about, sir, if you don't mind me

20 asking.

21 Q. I assume Croatian police in your village?

22 A. Yes, yes, Croatia's police but whose police should I go to and

23 ask these questions?

24 Q. Maybe we're just talking at cross purposes here, Mr. Mirkovic.

25 It is my duty to ask you questions. If you know the answers, please

Page 7490

1 state them.

2 A. Yes, sir, but I was in no position to talk to Croatian police. I

3 simply wasn't able to do that. I never returned to Polace after 1995 and

4 I am not here to name any names, who killed my mother. I know someone

5 did. I don't know who. I don't want to go too far and name some person

6 or another. I'm not here to lay the blame at anyone's door. What I'm

7 here to say is the truth. My mother was murdered. I'm not here to

8 blame, I'm not here to point my finger or indeed to defend anyone.

9 Q. I understand that and I respect that.

10 A. Thank you for your understanding.

11 Q. Given the fact that you were in touch with Mr. Savo Strbac from

12 Veritas, did you perhaps try to enlist the assistance of that

13 organisation in order to see what results, if any, the Croatian police

14 investigation had achieved about these events?

15 A. I never asked to know who it was that killed my mother. All I

16 asked for was to have a chance to bury my mother's mortal remains in a

17 dignified manner and take her to our family grave. I never wanted to

18 know who exactly killed my mother. I don't think I want to know. One

19 thing I do know is it was no human being it was a beast who killed an old

20 lady, aged 70. No human being in their right state of mind could

21 possibly have done that. Serb or Croat. I'm trying to see this matter

22 from a more generically humane position, sir.

23 Q. Mr. Mirkovic, have no doubt about this, please, that's what we're

24 all trying to do here, to see in a more humane perspective.

25 My last question: How exactly did you get in touch with

Page 7491

1 Mr. Strbac for Veritas?

2 A. I had the -- caught wind of the existence of this organisation

3 and then I went straight to them to report my case that was in Belgrade.

4 I think roughly about the same time there people who came over from some

5 international organisation they took blood samples from me and my sister

6 in order do some DNA analysis. I heard about the organisation and

7 thought I would go straight to them and speak to them about this. I

8 didn't know who else to go to.

9 Q. Did you and Mr. Strbac go back to some previous period when he

10 was a secretary of the Republic of Serbian Krajina?

11 A. No, I'd heard his name being mentioned on TV, that sort of thing.

12 They were talking about human suffering about searches for missing

13 persons and victims.

14 Q. Thank you very much for your answers, sir. I have no further

15 questions for you.

16 A. You're welcome.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Mikulicic.

18 Mr. Waespi, any further need to put questions to the witness.

19 MR. WAESPI: No, Mr. President.

20 [Trial Chamber confers]

21 JUDGE ORIE: The Bench has no further questions for you either,

22 Mr. Mirkovic.

23 This concludes your testimony in this court. The Chamber is

24 aware that the events you have testified about are about, as you told us,

25 the loss of your mother. The Chamber would like to thank you very much

Page 7492

1 for coming to The Hague and to testify and to answer the questions that

2 were put to you by the parties and by this Bench, and we wish you a safe

3 trip home again.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you for calling me. My

5 greetings and my very best wishes to you all.

6 [The witness withdrew]

7 JUDGE ORIE: Before we continue, Mr. Mikulicic, the witness said

8 that he was not -- he said he never returned to Polace, and he said: I

9 never wanted to know who exactly killed my mother.

10 I'm trying to see this matter from a more generically humane

11 position. That means overview rather than what actually and precisely

12 happened. You then said, Mr. Mirkovic, have no doubt about this, please,

13 that's what we are all trying to do here, to see in a more humane

14 perspective.

15 Where the witness made a distinction between knowing about the

16 facts and a more generically approach generically human approach, where

17 you referred to all, I have to bring to your attention that this Chamber,

18 of course, is trying to seek as much concrete information, not to say

19 that the generic humane approach would not be of interest but certainly

20 not to replace our wish to receive as much evidence on the facts and all

21 the details available.

22 I just wanted to put this on the record.

23 MR. MIKULICIC: I'm not sure -- aware of it, Your Honour.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. As far as scheduling is concerned from what I

25 now understand, Mr. Waespi, that there's no chance that the witness who