Page 7545
1 Thursday, 28 August 2008
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused Cermak not present]
4 --- Upon commencing at 3.44 p.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon to everyone.
6 Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. This is case
8 number IT-06-90-T, The Prosecutor versus Ante Gotovina et al.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
10 The Chamber received a message that Mr. Cermak, for not feeling
11 well had decided not to attend today. He signed a declaration of waiver,
12 which will be filed and this is in accordance with the information we
13 received from you, Mr. Kay.
14 MR. KAY: That is right, Your Honour, and he has waived his
15 rights to attend today, and I will represent his interests.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Kay.
17 Then this is to inform the parties that the discussion we had
18 about a person accompanying the witness today, after everything we had
19 arranged, we received a message that he decided not be present, so that
20 issue does not exist anymore.
21 We had a late start due to technical problems. I urge the
22 parties to see whether we can finish with the witness today, because it
23 would be a pity if he would have to return and then to have come back
24 tomorrow. Everyone will understand this.
25 Then let's check whether the videolink is well-functioning.
Page 7546
1 Could the representative of the registry in Zagreb
2 Chamber and tell us whether he with see and hear us.
3 THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Yes, Your Honour, good afternoon.
4 We can see and hear you clearly.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Monkhouse.
6 Then I would like to address the witness, Mr. Ilic.
7 Mr. Ilic, can you hear me in a language you understand?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ilic, before you give evidence in this Court,
10 the Rules of Procedure and Evidence require you to make a solemn
11 declaration that you will speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing
12 but the truth.
13 May I invite to you make that solemn declaration.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have read it and agree with it.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Can you please --
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
17 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Ilic.
19 Mr. Hedaraly, will it be you who will examine the witness.
20 MR. HEDARALY: It will, Your Honour.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Hedaraly, usually we start whether you are ready
22 to call your next witness but since Mr. Ilic was there already, I take it
23 that this is the witness that you intended to call.
24 MR. HEDARALY: That is correct, Your Honour.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
Page 7547
1 WITNESS: MILAN ILIC
2 [Witness testified through interpreter]
3 [Witness testified via videolink]
4 Examination by Mr. Hedaraly:
5 Q. Mr. Ilic, first please let me ask you, can you see me properly on
6 the screen in front of you?
7 A. Yes, I can.
8 Q. Thank you. Can you please state your full name for the record.
9 A. Ilic Milan
10 MR. HEDARALY: Mr. Registrar, could we please have 65 ter number
11 5396 on the screen; and for Mr. Registrar in Zagreb that would be the
12 first document that was sent over.
13 Q. Mr. Ilic, do you recall providing a statement to the Office of
14 the Prosecutor on 6 July 1999
15 A. I do.
16 Q. And if we can move to the bottom of the page on the English.
17 Can you confirm that that is your signature at the bottom?
18 A. It is my signature.
19 Q. And can we have 65 ter 5397, please, on the screen. And in
20 Zagreb
21 Mr. Ilic, do you recall providing another witness statement to
22 the Office of the Prosecutor on 25 March 2005?
23 A. I do remember, because I misspoke and I misspelled, actually, my
24 date of birth, the year of birth.
25 Q. Would you like to make that correction now?
Page 7548
1 A. Yes, let's correct it. It was 29th of August.
2 Q. Thank you. Can you also confirm that that signature at the
3 bottom of the page of the statement that is shown to you is also your
4 signature?
5 A. Yes, it is my signature.
6 Q. And did you have a chance to review these two statements, this
7 one and the one that was shown to you earlier, did you have a chance to
8 review these two statements yesterday?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And do these statements accurately reflect what you said to the
11 Office of the Prosecutor in the course of those interviews?
12 A. I think that they do.
13 Q. And the contents of the statements that you signed are true to
14 the best of your knowledge and recollection?
15 A. Yes, correct.
16 Q. And, finally, if you were asked the same questions today that you
17 were asked in those interviews, would you give the same answers?
18 A. Well, I think maybe not exactly in the same order, but I would
19 recall everything.
20 Q. Would the substance of your answers, if you were asked the same
21 questions today, be the same that are reflected in those two statements?
22 A. Yes.
23 MR. HEDARALY: Mr. President, at this time I would like to have
24 65 ter 5396 and 65 ter 5397 be admitted into evidence pursuant to Rule 92
25 ter.
Page 7549
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
2 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 65 ter number 5396 would be
3 assigned as Prosecution Exhibit P00725; and 65 ter number 5397 would be
4 assigned exhibit number P006726.
5 JUDGE ORIE: From earlier submissions I understand that are no
6 objections against admission of P725 and P726, therefore both are
7 admitted into evidence.
8 Please proceed, Mr. Hedaraly.
9 MR. HEDARALY: Thank you, Mr. President.
10 I would like to read out a summary of the evidence of the witness
11 contained in the two statements. I think it may be useful for the
12 witness if the Bench could briefly inform the witness of the purpose of
13 reading the summary.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ilic, Mr. Hedaraly will read a short summary of
15 your statement, because otherwise the public would not understand what
16 your testimony was about. Therefore, if you'd just wait a second and let
17 Mr. Hedaraly read and then he might have some additional questions in
18 relation to your statements.
19 Mr. Hedaraly, please proceed.
20 MR. HEDARALY: Thank you, Mr. President.
21 Milan Ilic is a Croatian citizen of Serb ethnicity, who lived in
22 Donji Lapac at the time Operation Storm started. From his home, he was
23 able to observe the convoy of civilians on the route towards Bosnia
24 during the first days of the military operation.
25 In the morning of 7 August 1995
Page 7550
1 approximately two hours, after which members of the Croatian forces
2 entered Donji Lapac and the surrounding villages. Milan Ilic decided to
3 leave for Oraovac, to his family home.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Oraovac.
5 MR. HEDARALY: That's right, Oraovac, O-R-A-O-V-A-C.
6 At about 1.00 in the afternoon, the witness and his brother Marko
7 were sitting in the garden of their family home in Oraovac when a group
8 of Croatian soldiers approached them and started cursing them calling
9 them Chetnik. The soldiers were armed. Some of them were wearing
10 camouflage uniforms whereas others had greyish green uniforms. Milan
11 Marko Ilic were made to sit on the road and were searched. A young
12 soldier was left to guard them as the others entered the houses of
13 Oraovac searching for people. Three remaining villagers Stevo Ajdukovic,
14 Rade Bibic, and Ruza Bibic were forced to join the witness and his
15 brother. The group composed exclusively of civilians most of them
16 elderly, was then ordered to stand up and walk behind one of the
17 soldiers.
18 While walking, Milan Ilic noticed an open gate, ran through it,
19 and hid in a bush. From this position, he heard about eight shots in
20 groups of two, coming from the direction of where the soldier was leading
21 the group. The witness hid in the area for the following two days and
22 was able to observe burning and looting. On the 10th of August,
23 Milan Ilic headed towards Bosnia
24 in the proximity of Martin Brod. He was brought to the collection centre
25 in Donji Lapac and then transferred to Zadar. He stayed there for about
Page 7551
1 20 days until his nephew came to collect him.
2 The witness returned to Donji Lapac in September 1995, to find
3 the village burnt to the ground. He reported the incident of Oraovac to
4 both of ICRC and the local police. Years later, he learned that the
5 bodies of his brother and the other villagers had been found in the
6 Gracac cemetery.
7 This concludes my summary, Your Honours.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Hedaraly.
9 Mr. Ilic, please carefully listen. Mr. Hedaraly may have
10 questions for you.
11 Mr. Hedaraly.
12 MR. HEDARALY: Thank you, Mr. President.
13 Q. Mr. Ilic, I don't have any questions for you regarding the
14 killing of your brother and the other villagers because it is clear at
15 least to me from your statements. The other lawyers and the Judges may
16 want to ask you questions regarding that incident. I want to focus on a
17 few other areas of your statement. Is that understood?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. My first question is: Were you ever a member of the army of the
20 RSK?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Was your brother, Marko Ilic, ever a member of the army of the
23 RSK?
24 A. No, he was an old man. He was 57 years old.
25 Q. Was Mr. Bibic a member of the army of the RSK?
Page 7552
1 A. No, he was even older than my brother.
2 Q. In your statement you discuss briefly the shelling of Donji Lapac
3 on the 7th of August. Now, I want to ask you a few questions regarding
4 that.
5 First of all, you stated that you were on your way from
6 Donji Lapac to Oraovac. Can you tell the Court where you were when you
7 observed the shelling?
8 A. I was at home first in Lapac and then I headed for Lapac [as
9 interpreted]. But before that, I went on the way --
10 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not hear the first place or
11 the second place, Korenica.
12 MR. HEDARALY:
13 Q. Mr. Ilic, I think there was a problem with the interpretation.
14 Could you please repeat your answer and say from where you went the first
15 location and the second location to which you went.
16 A. The first place where I was, was at home in Donji Lapac. When
17 the shelling started, I headed towards Oraovac. The shelling of Oraovac
18 came from three different area, Mazin, Udbina and Korenica and this
19 lasted about an hour. Maybe a little longer, but I think it was about an
20 hour.
21 Q. And where were you specifically when you observed this? Was
22 it -- was it along the way the whole time or was it a specific location
23 that you were observing this from?
24 A. For a while I remained at the same place, but then I went along
25 the wood and headed for Oraovac and that's how I got there, because the
Page 7553
1 shells were flying over Lapac?
2 Q. When you say you remained at the same place, was that a specific
3 place in Donji Lapac.
4 A. When it started. Donji Lapac, that's when it started. Because
5 my house was towards Bosnia
6 Q. So were your observations made from your house in Donji Lapac or
7 some other location in Donji Lapac?
8 A. Well, I left my house. I wasn't in the house itself because I
9 had left the house early in the morning.
10 Q. How far from your house were you?
11 A. Well, I left -- well, it was about ten metres away from my home.
12 Maybe not even that far.
13 Q. You stated both in your statements and earlier a few minutes ago
14 that the shelling was coming from three different areas Mazin, Udbina and
15 Korenica. Were you able to see the shells coming from those locations or
16 from those directions?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And did you see where those shells were falling?
19 A. I did see when a shell hits a house then you could see a cloud of
20 smoke and dust.
21 Q. And could you tell the Court where the shells were falling. Were
22 they falling in town itself, or in areas of town specifically? Could you
23 give us any information as to where you saw these shells fall, these --
24 the smoke going up.
25 A. I saw what was happening in the downtown Lapac in the centre and
Page 7554
1 then a street leading towards the lumber yard, and this the way that I
2 went and the shell had just hit the lumber mill.
3 Q. So that was -- if I understood you correctly, in the centre of
4 Donji Lapac?
5 A. Yes, in the centre.
6 Q. Were there any ARSK soldiers, tanks, artillery pieces or any
7 other type of military equipment in the town of Donji Lapac itself?
8 A. As for the RSK army, there was no one there. They had all left.
9 As for weapons, I wouldn't know anything about that. Because there were
10 no operations there was no counterattack, nothing.
11 Q. Were there any places around Donji Lapac where any -- any
12 ammunitions or weapons could have been stored?
13 A. I don't know about that. I can't really say. I don't know. I
14 think not, but I don't know. Unless somewhere in Boricevac, but for
15 these villages, I don't know.
16 Q. And how far is Boricevac from Donji Lapac?
17 A. I think maybe eight or nine kilometres.
18 Q. And now you said maybe somewhere in Boricevac. Actually, you
19 said unless somewhere in Boricevac. Do you have any reason to believe
20 that there were any military weapons or ammunitions stored there?
21 A. Well, you know what I think? This was a state-owned company, and
22 all these resources that they had they were deserted, they were left
23 behind and I didn't go there because I had no cause to go there.
24 Q. So have I understood you correctly, that you don't know what was
25 there?
Page 7555
1 A. I don't know. To tell you the truth, I can't tell you what
2 exactly was there.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Hedaraly, could you seek clarification as to
4 what state-owned company the witness was referring to and where that was
5 located, apart from whether it was operational or not.
6 MR. HEDARALY: Certainly, Mr. President.
7 Q. Mr. Ilic, you said there was a state-owned company. Was that a
8 state-owned company that was in Boricevac or was it somewhere else?
9 A. It was in Boricevac. Their main administration building was in
10 Boricevac. That's where their offices were. There were also some stalls
11 there and stables. But this was not in operation anymore, so that these
12 stables were left behind.
13 Q. When was the last time that those stables, as you call them, had
14 been operational?
15 A. I can't really recall exactly because I used to work there for
16 about a year. I can't recall what year it was. This was an agricultural
17 combine. I think this was in 1975, maybe, when I worked for them. These
18 stables were already in very poor condition. They were sort of decrepit,
19 falling apart.
20 Q. Were they operational at the beginning of the war?
21 A. I couldn't say. I don't know.
22 Q. And could you give us a little more precision of what type of
23 agricultural type of business that company was involved in?
24 A. They raised cattle, calfs. There was also -- all kinds of
25 agricultural work, farming.
Page 7556
1 Q. Thank you.
2 MR. HEDARALY: Mr. President, would you like more clarification
3 or ...
4 JUDGE ORIE: No, it's fine, as far as I'm concerned.
5 MR. HEDARALY: Thank you.
6 Q. Mr. Ilic, in your statement, you said that at the time the
7 population of the Donji Lapac municipality was around 8.500 and that they
8 were mostly Serbs. Can you tell the Court what is the population of the
9 Donji Lapac municipality today?
10 A. I think that today, together with the Croats and the Bosniaks,
11 they're probably two and a half to 3.000 people, no more.
12 Q. And what is the proportion of Serbs and Croats and Bosniaks
13 today, if you know?
14 A. Well, the Serbs are in the majority and then the next group are
15 Bosnian Croats. There are some Croats from Croatia, few.
16 Q. Okay. I just want to switch the focus now.
17 You talked about -- in your statements about the soldiers -- the
18 soldiers that came in Oraovac and you said that some had camouflage
19 uniforms and then some had in the first statement you say plain grey
20 uniform and then in the second statement greyish green uniforms, I would
21 like to clear up that confusion. Let me show you a picture.
22 MR. HEDARALY: If we could have P324 on the screen.
23 Q. Can you tell the Court whether the colour of the uniform you see
24 there is -- is similar to the ones that you saw in Oraovac.
25 MR. HEDARALY: And, Mr. Registrar, that is the one that has
Page 7557
1 number on it, that ends with 9979.
2 A. The soldiers who were in Oraovac had camouflage uniforms on,
3 whereas these had greyish green uniforms. They look the like overalls.
4 I saw this on the video yesterday and I explained to them what they
5 looked like. Because it wasn't easy to -- you know, I wasn't really
6 looking what they were wearing. I just know that some of them had
7 camouflage uniforms.
8 MR. HEDARALY:
9 Q. Let me just clarify one thing. You said that the soldiers in
10 Oraovac had camouflage uniforms. In your statement, you said that there
11 were two types of soldiers in Oraovac, some that this camouflage uniforms
12 and some that had this greyish green uniform. Is that correct, that both
13 those types of uniforms were worn by the soldiers there in Oraovac?
14 A. Yes. Some of them had camouflage uniforms; and the others had
15 other uniforms. But they were all together.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Misetic.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They were not separate.
18 MR. MISETIC: Your Honour, two points. One is I would like to
19 repeat an objection that I made several months ago if Your Honour will
20 recall it had to do with identification of badges, uniforms, and things
21 like that and showing specific pictures and asking a witness to identify
22 them.
23 The second is that the witness has made a comment in his answer
24 that he saw a video yesterday. I don't --
25 JUDGE ORIE: Make I take it that Mr. Hedaraly will come to it.
Page 7558
1 MR. HEDARALY: I have no idea so I'm go to ask him.
2 MR. MISETIC: I was going to ask if there was a proofing
3 statement, but I guess not. Okay thank you.
4 MR. HEDARALY: I don't know what that video is but I will ask
5 him. If can just respond to Mr. Misetic' objection.
6 I'm not asking the witness whether these were the same soldiers
7 and he discusses in his statement like a badge and those were not shown
8 to him specifically for that reason, but in this case we have pictures of
9 some soldiers that we know were in the area so that's why I'm just trying
10 to seek clarification on the colours that they were wearing, not
11 identifying the colour but if you could compare between his two
12 statements iff they're similar to what is being shown. I'm not seeking
13 identification of that specific uniform.
14 JUDGE ORIE: No. But that seems to be not the major concern of
15 Mr. Misetic. I think the issue is that a witness should first exhaust
16 his memory in describing what he saw before any examples are given to
17 them, and one could even consider that before showing pictures, that a
18 kind of a photo spread of uniforms would be produced so as to give an
19 opportunity to the witness to say which is the type of uniform, which
20 comes closest to or is the same as what you just described, a kind of
21 a -- like with an identification of a person but then identification of
22 uniforms.
23 But I don't think at this moment that we have to further
24 elaborate on this. I see Mr. Misetic is nodding yes.
25 Let's move on.
Page 7559
1 Please proceed.
2 MR. HEDARALY:
3 Q. I want to move to when you left the collection centre in Zadar
4 and when you were collected by your nephew to leave. And in your
5 statement, you said that people who had relatives were allowed to leave
6 those collection centres.
7 Did you know of other people that were in those collection
8 centres that also left with their families?
9 A. Yes. I know who was there, but then quite a few people have died
10 as well. Milosevic, Saja; Tadic, Milan
11 then some people from Udbina; but I don't think who they were. I have
12 forgotten their names and their last names too. But I know our names.
13 Q. I'm not asking for their names I'm just asking if in general you
14 know of other people that left the collection centre in Zadar with
15 members of their family that came to pick them up. I'm not asking you to
16 list them, all of those, the ones you know.
17 A. All right. Quite a few of them left. They went in different
18 directions, because when we came to the first collection centre, there
19 were more of us. Then the inspectors and the police were asking
20 questions. For example, 150 of us who were sort of not guilty, we were
21 transferred to another collection centre and the police was there, and I
22 know that they did not have long rifles. They had short-barreled guns
23 and then people came from the Red Cross and from international
24 organisations and they gave us clothing and this and that and the other
25 thing and they said, Well, whoever had relatives or whatever, as a matter
Page 7560
1 of fact, they even took some addresses from me. I don't know whether
2 they called my relatives or not. Anyway the way it turned out was that
3 my relative found out. I called this man my nephew, but then he came to
4 pic me up about 20 days later in Zadar.
5 Q. Thank you. Now my next question from the people that left that
6 collection centre because they were collected by members of their family,
7 did any of them go back to the territory that was controlled by the RSK
8 previously; and I'm specifically referring to either Obrovac, Benkovac,
9 Gracac, or Donji Lapac.
10 A. I don't know about Benkovac and Gracac. I don't know that very
11 well. I don't know, really. I only know of Lapac.
12 Q. And do you know of anyone that left the collection centre in
13 Zadar and went back to Lapac directly?
14 A. I know of this Tadic, Milan
15 know of myself. I know of Jure Milkovic. I know of the four of us.
16 Also, there was this man called Milan Sarac, who returned with his wife.
17 Q. I'm asking whether they went back directly from Zadar to
18 Donji Lapac. My understanding from your statement is that you first went
19 to Zagreb
20 Donji Lapac. I'm asking if you are aware whether these other people went
21 directly from Zadar to --
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. To Donji Lapac or whether they had to go somewhere else first.
24 A. Most of them went to Zagreb
25 else and then I went to stay with my nephew and niece and then
Page 7561
1 afterwards, I don't know how to put this. I started dealing with my
2 papers the latest in Donji Lapac and perhaps I was the first to go to
3 Lapac within two weeks, and they stayed with their children in Zagreb
4 Q. Thank you. The last subject that I want to cover is what you saw
5 in both Lapac and Oraovac in terms of both burning and looting.
6 Did you see anyone carrying goods out of houses in either Lapac
7 or Oraovac, after you returned?
8 A. After I returned, or, rather while I was still in Oraovac looting
9 started a bit of looting that was the army was doing and then when I
10 returned to Lapac then people were taking whatever they could take
11 refugees came from Bosnia
12 of things and I was looking for a bed so that I'd have a place to sleep
13 at least.
14 Q. Can you give the Court a little more detail as to who was doing
15 the looting and when. Now you mentioned the army; you mentioned some
16 refugees. Can you please tell the Court who was looting when, to the
17 extent that you know.
18 A. I cannot tell you exactly what the dates were. The army that had
19 stayed behind in Lapac, they were looting. And then the people who had
20 come from Bosnia
21 dare say anything to the military. The military is the military, after
22 all, so -- well, that was after Storm, because they stayed bit longer in
23 Lapac.
24 Q. So when, in your answer you said the army had stayed behind and
25 then the people who had come from Bosnia
Page 7562
1 that the army was looting first and then --
2 MR. MISETIC: Your Honour, I'm going to object to the leading.
3 If he could just ask the question.
4 MR. HEDARALY: I'm asked him. I'm trying to clarify. He says
5 then. I'm trying to find out what he means by "then," if it's the
6 same --
7 JUDGE ORIE: [Overlapping speakers] ... then perhaps you ask him
8 what he meant by that, and of course you are giving a possible
9 chronological order.
10 Please proceed.
11 MR. HEDARALY: Just trying to expedite the thing but that's fine,
12 Your Honour.
13 Q. When you said the army had stayed behind in Lapac they were
14 looting and then the people who had come from Bosnia were looting too,
15 what do you mean by that?
16 A. This is the way I'm going to put it. The army were looting and
17 then taking things away on trucks, and I don't know where they went.
18 As for Bosnians who came they were staying in houses that had not
19 burned down completely. They were trying to find things on which they
20 could sleep and they were trying to find whatever they could in the
21 houses or, rather, on the floors that had not been burned down.
22 As for the army, whatever they took, they took away. They took
23 it away on trucks.
24 Q. Were the army and the Bosnian refugees looting at the same time?
25 A. No, no, not at the same time, no. They were hiding. They didn't
Page 7563
1 want the police to notice what they were doing. All sorts of things were
2 going on.
3 Q. Was there one group that was looting before the other --
4 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter did not hear the witness. The
5 other speakers were overlapping.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Hedaraly, you interrupted. One second, please.
7 You interrupted the witness when he was giving his answer.
8 Witness, you said all sorts of things were going on and then you
9 added something to that. Could you please repeat that.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Are you talking to me?
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I was.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What kind of things? What kind of
13 things are interested in so I make it clearer for you. Are you asking
14 about what I was telling about previously? Well, I can tell you, the
15 army, they took away on truck what it was that they had stolen.
16 As for the Croats from Bosnia
17 to Korenica and others transferred to Lapac, and they took whatever they
18 found. Well, that is the way it was so they would have someplace to
19 sleep, whatever. Well, as I did myself.
20 MR. HEDARALY:
21 Q. Were the two groups of the army and the refugees looting at the
22 same time and by that mean were they alternating, like you would see them
23 one looting and then the other looting or was it one group and then the
24 other group, if you recall?
25 A. I don't think that is what happened. As far as I can remember,
Page 7564
1 they weren't doing it at the same time because the Croats didn't show up
2 when the army -- I mean well, when they were not there, that is when the
3 others went into action.
4 Q. In your second statement, you talk about a street where your
5 house is, where all the houses had been looted except one house that
6 belonged to a -- to a Muslim man. Do you remember that in your
7 statement?
8 A. They were looted. But let me tell you quite openly. When I
9 returned, I went to see the mayor. My house had been torched and I asked
10 whether I could move into a Muslim house. That was right across the
11 street on the other side of the road. And the mayor let me do that.
12 I kept all the things that were in the house until the old woman
13 came back.
14 Q. Let me refer to you in paragraph 17 of your 2005 statement. I'm
15 going to read a few lines from there. It starts at the second sentence
16 where you say:
17 "But everything in my home was burnt on the ground and destroyed.
18 Everything in the entire street was destroyed except one house which
19 belonged to a Muslim which was not destroyed. About 70 per cent of the
20 buildings in Donji Lapac were destroyed."
21 Now I want to ask you about this one house that was not
22 destroyed, which belonged to a Muslim.
23 A. Could you please repeat that? I didn't hear you well.
24 Q. Of course. You say:
25 "Everything in my home was burnt to the ground and destroyed.
Page 7565
1 Everything in the entire street was destroyed except one house which
2 belonged to a Muslim which was not destroyed. About 70 per cent of the
3 buildings in Donji Lapac were destroyed?"
4 Is that accurate?
5 A. Yes, that is accurate, exactly.
6 Q. Now the house that belonged to a Muslim, can you tell the Court
7 what was the ethnicity of his wife?
8 A. She was a Croat. But she lived in the same neighbourhood with us
9 for over 30 years.
10 Q. Thank you.
11 MR. HEDARALY: Your Honour I don't have any other questions, but
12 I would like at this time to move into evidence from the bar table 12
13 documents regarding the exhumation and forensic examination of the four
14 victims to that killing incident. These documents are similar to those
15 introduced for other killings. There is an additional issue. The first
16 ten documents relate to three of the four victims that were identified.
17 The last two documents relate to a fourth victim that was not formally
18 identified but that the Prosecution believes is the fourth victim,
19 Ruza Bibic; and the reason for that is the four bodies were collected on
20 the same day, on the 4th of September, 1995 from the same location
21 Oraovac, 50 metres east of the last house and the numbers assigned to
22 those four bodies before being buried were consecutive 569 to 572. In
23 addition, they were buried next to each other in the Gracac cemetery as
24 the exhumation numbers are also consecutive G 03/015 to 018 and finally
25 the last reason why the Prosecution believes that it is Ruzica Bibic is
Page 7566
1 that this witness in his statement at paragraph 21 in his 2005 statement
2 says, "I am not sure exactly what she was wearing, she normally wore a
3 pair of plastic shoes and a button-up dress," and that is what a summary
4 of the autopsy report says she was found with.
5 I think there was an objection to the last document that is why I
6 wanted to give these reasons, but we would like to move those 12
7 documents into evidence at this time.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. First of all, you told us that you had no
9 further questions, although I expected a question about the video that
10 was shown to the witness; you may have forgotten about that. But since
11 you have now tendered these documents perhaps we first deal with that.
12 Mr. Mikulicic.
13 MR. MIKULICIC: Yes, Your Honour, I will object to the last two
14 documents because while it is only believed that this was a body of the
15 deceased person and this is not for certain the body was not identified
16 as such; so I believe the probative value of such document is not on a
17 high level.
18 So my objections goes mainly on the probative value of the
19 documents.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
21 Now, Mr. Mikulicic, you're telling us that since the body has not
22 been identified that therefore this document has not -- these documents
23 do not have probative value.
24 From what I understand from Mr. Hedaraly that these are elements
25 to -- to contribute to the identification of those witnesses. If we say,
Page 7567
1 They are not been identified, therefore, documents which might be
2 relevant or might play a role in the identification should be excluded
3 because the body has not been identified then we have a snake which bites
4 on its own tail isn't it.
5 MR. MIKULICIC: Perhaps you're right, Your Honour, what I meant
6 was that the body was not positively identified by DNA method as the
7 other three bodies were. So that is my main concern, nothing else.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, if there is it no DNA identification, and if
9 the Prosecution intends to identify that body, then it should be done by
10 other means whether that will be successful or not of course is a
11 different matter.
12 But let me just confer.
13 [Trial Chamber confers]
14 JUDGE ORIE: This objection is denied, Mr. Mikulicic.
15 Are there any other objections against these documents?
16 There's one issue, Mr. Hedaraly, I do understand that from the
17 exhibit list that the numbering from the last document that is the
18 autopsy report for body G 03/017 B, that the numbering, as we find it on
19 your exhibit list is not correct. That means 65 ter number --
20 MR. HEDARALY: That is -- I'm sorry, Your Honour, I think I send
21 them to Mr. Registrar, but perhaps we forgot to send a copy to the
22 Chambers. It should be the report for body G 03/016 B P and the 65 ter
23 number is it 5403.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Since this document has been further
25 identified, no objections. Then, in the absence of any objections, the
Page 7568
1 documents -- Mr. Registrar I think no numbers have yet been assigned to
2 them. They are admitted but the formal decision on admission will be
3 taken after they have assigned -- after exhibit numbers have been
4 assigned to them. We'll hear later from the registrar. He will prepare
5 a list in which we find the documents and the numbers assigned to them.
6 MR. HEDARALY: I just want to caution Mr. Registrar there are 12
7 documents there are more on the list because some of them have the same
8 65 ter number because are the same lists identifying different people so
9 there's 12 new exhibits that should be given and one of the document
10 appears three times although 14 documents listed there, there are only 12
11 documents listed there, just in case there is any confusion.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Registrar will be happy to have a little
13 puzzle before him I'm certain, I'm confident that he will be able to
14 resolve that puzzle with your assistance Mr. Hedaraly.
15 Now there was one remaining issue.
16 MR. HEDARALY: Yes, I apologise Mr. President, I forgot. I
17 didn't have it written down, which is my mistake.
18 Mr. Ilic, earlier we were talking about the uniforms that the
19 soldiers were wearing. You referred to a video that you watched. Now,
20 are you referring to pictures that were shown to you on a computer? Are
21 you referring to a video that was played for you?
22 A. How can I explain this to you? There was there gentleman here
23 yesterday. He put this video cassette there and displayed soldiers
24 showing their uniforms and I said well, this was it and he also asked me
25 whether it was green or grey and I said one was camouflage,
Page 7569
1 multi-coloured and when I saw this I said, Well and then he said it was
2 maybe these soldiers, no way, well anyway, not those soldiers that what
3 was the uniform was because I don't know. I don't know -- I don't know
4 how to explain this. It wasn't green/grey. It was -- well, like a
5 military uniform that you would wear for a long time, and when it gets
6 old ...
7 Q. I think can I can clarify the confusion. It was a CD with some
8 pictures that are exhibits that were played. It wasn't a video, but were
9 pictures that were shown that are in the proofing note that he referred
10 to, so the witness thinks it is a video. I'm the gentleman he is
11 referring to.
12 JUDGE ORIE: You're the gentleman he is referring to.
13 I'm looking at the Defence, and I take it if you want to put
14 further questions that Mr. Hedaraly would be the first one to know what
15 other questions to put to the witness in relation to that. I leave it up
16 to the Defence to further deal with the matter.
17 No further questions, Mr. Hedaraly?
18 MR. HEDARALY: No Mr. President, that is it.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ilic, these were the questions Mr. Hedaraly
20 wanted to put to you.
21 Now who will be the first one; it will it be you Mr. Mikulicic?
22 MR. MIKULICIC: I will be the one.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Ilic, you will now be cross-examined by
24 Mr. Mikulicic; and Mr. Mikulicic is counsel for Mr. Markac.
25 Cross-examination by Mr. Mikulicic:
Page 7570
1 MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Ilic.
3 A. Good afternoon.
4 Q. I am General Markac's Defence counsel in the case that you are
5 testifying in and an on behalf of the Defence, I'm going to put a few
6 questions to you. I am aware of the fact that it has been a long time
7 now since all of these things happened, but I kindly ask to you try to
8 remember an answer these questions to the best of your recollection.
9 Mr. Ilic, you completed elementary school, right?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And after that, you got a job at the lumber mill, right?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. You did your military service in the former Yugoslav people's
14 army?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Tell us, did you receive some military training in the sense of
17 recognizing weapons by their form or by the sound of gun-fire?
18 A. Sir, as far as weapons are concerned, while I did my military
19 service in 1960 I was in engineering units and I mostly worked on the
20 road. I didn't really see weapons. I was in Karlovac for six months and
21 I was a leader there, and then I was transferred to Belgrade.
22 Q. I understand that. Let us go back to what happened in
23 Donji Lapac.
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Tell us, in Donji Lapac, at the time when you lived there in
Page 7571
1 1995, was there a police station there?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Can you remember where it was, where it was located in town?
4 A. Right in the centre of town where a new one was built now.
5 That's where it was.
6 Q. When you say that "now a new one was built"?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. What happened to the old police station?
9 A. It was torched. When the municipal building burned down, the two
10 buildings were nearby, and that's how they both burned down.
11 Q. In the municipal building that was close to the police station,
12 was there a defence office there as well?
13 A. I don't think so. I don't think so. There was this other
14 building down there below it. It was called the committee.
15 Q. This other building where the defence department was,
16 approximately how far away was it from the police station and from this
17 other municipal building?
18 A. Well, I don't know if there's 20 metres all in all. Well, say 40
19 or 50 metres away from the police building because the police building
20 was near the municipality building, the municipality building was a bit
21 bigger, so it was there, opposite.
22 Q. When answering the questions put to you by the Prosecutor, you
23 said that you saw shells falling in the centre of Lapac. Do you remember
24 that?
25 A. Yes. Yes, I do.
Page 7572
1 Q. Did you see shells hit the police station or the other two
2 buildings that we've been talking about?
3 A. I did not see that, so I cannot say.
4 Q. Mr. Ilic, do you know that at the time of the Republic of Serbian
5 Krajina, in this territory, there was something called the 103rd Lapac
6 Infantry Brigade?
7 A. I have no idea whatsoever about that.
8 Q. Did you know, Mr. Ilic, what the function and task of the police
9 was in Donji Lapac, in relation to the defence of the Republic of Serbian
10 Krajina at the time?
11 A. Sir, to tell you quite openly, I did not like being in contact
12 with the police then. I don't like it now. I don't know.
13 Q. I understand that.
14 You said that you left Donji Lapac on the 7th of August, 1995
15 that you went to Oraovac?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. While you were still in Donji Lapac, and I'm referring to the 6th
18 of August, did you notice that there were columns of people and military
19 vehicles moving down the road?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Tell us, do you remember whether these military vehicles were
22 moving together with the civilian population or separately?
23 A. Well, it's not surprising that it was separate, but the civilians
24 from Korenica, Licki Osijek, Udbina, all of that was moving from Udbina,
25 Licki Petrovac; all of them were on the move through Lapac there were
Page 7573
1 civilians there, with carts, with vehicles, all sorts of things.
2 Q. When you talked about your street, that is Antuna Gustava Matosa,
3 right?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. In Donji Lapac? Did other Croats live in that street too, or was
6 the lady in the building opposite the only Croat person there?
7 A. There was another lady who was a neighbour who was also a Croat.
8 She originally came from Drnis.
9 Q. What happened to her house; do you know?
10 A. The same thing. Her house burned down too, except that now it
11 has been restored and the old woman returned to the house, together with
12 her children.
13 Q. Could we now please go back to the description of the uniforms
14 that we already discussed earlier, and I'm referring here to the uniforms
15 that were worn by the soldiers who came to Oraovac to the house of your
16 brothers, where you were.
17 A. Yes, yes.
18 Q. I know that many years have passed. However, in your statement
19 from 1995 [as interpreted] - in other words four years after the events -
20 you described these uniforms as grey uniforms.
21 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction 1999 four years after
22 the events.
23 MR. MIKULICIC:
24 Q. Please go on, just tell us what you --
25 A. I'm trying to hear your question better, so I will wait for your
Page 7574
1 question.
2 Q. What I'm saying was that in your statement of 1999, you described
3 the uniforms of the soldiers who came to Oraovac as being grey. Do you
4 recall that?
5 A. I said that there were camouflage uniforms and grey uniforms, but
6 these grey uniforms, they were sort of greyish-green. It is hard to
7 describe what they looked like. They looked like the old uniforms that
8 the Yugoslav army had but washed out, you know a bit different.
9 Q. Do you remember if these soldiers wore any caps?
10 A. Yes, they had caps and they also -- and they -- these caps were
11 on their shoulders.
12 Q. What did these caps look like? Can you describe them? What
13 colour were they?
14 A. I couldn't really say. They were -- some of them were of various
15 colours, but I couldn't really see.
16 Q. Mr. Ilic, do you recall whether these soldiers had uniforms that
17 matched, so both the upper -- the top and the bottom matched? And I mean
18 matched in colour.
19 A. Yeah. Well, the people in these camouflage uniforms, they had
20 the tops and the bottoms were the same. As for the others, they had all
21 kinds of different tops and bottoms.
22 Q. You also described some insignia that you remembered that you saw
23 on these uniforms. You said in your 1999 statement - this was in
24 paragraph 4, the last paragraph on the first page - you said that these
25 uniforms had some twigs on the -- on the insignia on the sleeve.
Page 7575
1 Can you just clarify this a bit?
2 A. You know what, sir? I know that the men who had camouflage
3 uniforms, they had some insignia on the sleeves. If you were to show me
4 all these different symbols now, then could I tell you well, this is what
5 they had. But I couldn't really describe it even now. And as for the
6 other ones, the ones that had grey uniforms, they didn't have any
7 insignia on their sleeves.
8 Q. Mr. Ilic, let me ask you this: In your 1999 statement, speaking
9 about this in the last paragraph, you said the following, and I will read
10 it now:
11 "I never saw any crime being committed myself. Yes, I did see
12 torched houses or burning houses, but I never saw who or how did this. I
13 never saw anyone looting. My house in Donji Lapac was burnt down, but of
14 course I do not know who or when did this. Our house in Oraovac was not
15 touched but some items were missing. I was told that refugees from
16 Bosnia
17 Sir, what I've just read, is this what your recollection was in
18 1999 regarding these events?
19 A. I don't know who wrote that, but I know that in every statement I
20 spoke about these four people who were killed together with my brother;
21 these three people and my brother. To be honest, I didn't see any other
22 victims. I just know about these, and I don't know what's written there
23 or who wrote that.
24 I also had occasion, once, when two people came from The Hague
25 Russian and an Australian woman. I asked them to tell me what they had
Page 7576
1 read on the internet and when they read it back to me, I just told them
2 that I didn't say what they had written down.
3 MR. MIKULICIC: Could we now please be shown Exhibit P725.
4 Q. Mr. Ilic, when you see --
5 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... will there be
6 any follow-up questions in relation to your last question?
7 MR. MIKULICIC: I would like just to prove through the witness
8 that he signed the statement which I'm referring to.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. As a matter of fact, it comes as a bit of a
10 surprise to me, Mr. Mikulicic, for the following reasons. First of all,
11 of course, we have heard the answer of the witness on a matter which
12 it -- it gave me the impression for one second that you would seek
13 confirmation of a portion of the statement which was already confirmed by
14 the witness although in answer to your question it looked even a bit
15 different.
16 Cross-examination is not meant to seek the witness to repeat what
17 is already in evidence and apparently the portions you like most. That's
18 not what cross-examination is for.
19 Please proceed.
20 MR. MIKULICIC: Yes, Your Honour. I am fully aware of it. What
21 I had in mind is confront the witness with his today's statement, when he
22 was talking about the looting and the burning and with his previous
23 statement from 1999.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I see that for the line of looting that makes
25 sense. For the others, there's a -- yes.
Page 7577
1 MR. MIKULICIC: Okay, Your Honour.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
3 MR. MIKULICIC: I will proceed.
4 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Ilic, about my question to you whether you
5 signed this statement of 1999, I think that is not in question. You did
6 sign it, right?
7 A. Yes, right. However, I may have signed it, but what is written
8 in it and how it was written, I really don't know. I saw these four
9 people killed, these four victims; so I don't know what you mean by my
10 stating that I have never seen any other victims and what that is meant
11 for.
12 Q. Mr. Ilic, I apologise. Perhaps you misunderstood my question or
13 I wasn't precise enough.
14 A. That's not why I'm mentioning it, sir, but I feel uncomfortable
15 saying that I hadn't seen any victims when I did see these, and they were
16 even identified in Zagreb
17 happening. I wonder ...
18 Q. Mr. Ilic, I did not put any questions about victims, and I
19 respect what you have said. What I am trying to ask you, what I'm asking
20 you is this: Is this correct, as you said in 1999, that you had never
21 seen anyone loot -- looting. Is that correct?
22 A. What do you mean I never saw anyone? Of course I did. As I
23 said, both military men and also these Bosnian people, my countrymen. So
24 I can only tell you that I had to look for something to lay down on.
25 Q. Thank you for your answers, Mr. Ilic. I have no further
Page 7578
1 questions.
2 A. Thank you.
3 MR. KAY: I have no questions, Your Honour.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Kay.
5 Mr. Misetic.
6 MR. MISETIC: Your Honour, I have no questions for the witness I
7 have one bar table submission on this point. If I could call up
8 1D46-0001.
9 Your Honour, this is -- we are created this exhibit. It is D280,
10 G it is already admitted into evidence obviously. It shows the line of
11 separation between what is the Military District Gospic and Military
12 District Split and all we have done is on 280 G, D280 G circled where
13 Oraovac is; and I asked that the exhibit be marked and we tender it into
14 evidence.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Hedaraly.
16 MR. HEDARALY: No objections.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Then, Mr. Registrar, could you please assign a
18 number to the --
19 THE REGISTRAR: That will be assigned D00726, Your Honours.
20 JUDGE ORIE: D726, you said, Mr. -- one second.
21 The document is admitted into evidence. I was just -- yes. I
22 was just -- I noticed that we were the P numbering was also 726 and I
23 wondered whether there was any mistake, but apparently the parties move
24 on in a similar speed as far as the production of evidence is concerned.
25 D726 is admitted into evidence.
Page 7579
1 [Trial Chamber confers]
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ilic, Judge Gwaunza has one or more questions
3 for you.
4 Questioned by the Court:
5 JUDGE GWAUNZA: Yes, if I could take you back to your statement
6 of July 1999, on the first page, the last paragraph. You mentioned there
7 that before Operation Storm started, most of the people had already left
8 and there were only six left.
9 Do you know exactly when they left and what made them leave?
10 A. Is that your question? Yes. On the 5th and 6th, as I already
11 said in western Lika and Lapac all the columns came that way. I don't
12 know how word came out that there will be an attack. I can't say that,
13 because I heard on the radio that there was already something happening
14 in Knin on the 5th, and then the Dalmatians and these men, our men they
15 were all withdrawing, and they left.
16 JUDGE GWAUNZA: Yes, thank you.
17 The second question that I have for you relates to something that
18 is recorded in your second statement of March 2005, and I'm referring to
19 page 6, paragraph 16.
20 You said there:
21 "In Zadar we were put into a collection centre. We were
22 questioned by various inspectors in civilian clothing and divided into
23 groups. Those who had done something wrong and those that hadn't" -- and
24 I think in your evidence you mentioned something about those who were not
25 guilty.
Page 7580
1 Would you know what it is that was considered to be wrong; and
2 also do you know what then happened to those who had been considered to
3 have done something wrong?
4 A. About those who remained, I don't know anything, but our group,
5 mostly these were older people and women and children. We were moved to
6 this other collection centre, and, as I said today, when the Red Cross
7 came, the international representatives, if we had relatives, anyone who
8 had relatives they could be picked up by the relatives. And even when
9 they came for us, they would send us to the police to bring a document
10 showing that we weren't in the army of the Republika Srpska. And then as
11 soon as I brought that, I was set free and I left for Zagreb.
12 As for the others, I have no idea where they are. I didn't know
13 these people. Because among -- in the group that came with me, I knew
14 those people, so all the others, they were allowed to leave for Serbia
15 That is what I can tell you, that is what I know.
16 JUDGE GWAUNZA: Thank you for that answer.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ilic, I have a few questions for you.
18 The first one is about what you told us about the shelling, when
19 you left Donji Lapac and when you went to Oraovac.
20 You said that shells fell in the centre of Donji Lapac. Did they
21 fall there only; or did you see shells falling in or locations as well?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I saw shells falling on the centre.
23 I also saw in Lapac shells falling near the lumber mill and then in a
24 part of Lapac that we call Rasita [phoen] and then where our streets were
25 and the gas station; and I think a few houses there were destroyed.
Page 7581
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could you describe in more detail the type of
2 structures that were hit by the shells? You --
3 A. You mean those five houses, that?
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, those five houses. For example, were these
5 houses inhabited by persons or were they used for other purposes.
6 A. I think that everyone had moved out from those houses, that there
7 was no one there. And it was my opinion that maybe there were some
8 troops there and that's why it was shelled. When the shelling ended,
9 then the troops came in.
10 JUDGE ORIE: You said maybe there were some troop there is
11 that -- -- do you mean to say that in those houses there were troops and
12 that for that reason --
13 A. No, no, no, that's not what I said. This was shelled although
14 there was no army there, there were no Croatian soldiers in Lapac either.
15 When the shelling ended around 10.00, then the Croatian army came, walked
16 into this area into Donji Lapac.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Now those houses, how far away were they from the
18 police building, the municipality building or what you call the committee
19 building. Were they nearby, were they far away?
20 A. How can I describe this, how far it was. The police station was
21 there, it wasn't too far away. It was close to the municipal building,
22 maybe some ten metres away. And the police moved in there, and that's
23 where their police headquarters were, or their station, until the new
24 police premises were built.
25 JUDGE ORIE: I'm not sure that you understood my question
Page 7582
1 correctly. What I was asking you about is the distance between the
2 houses that were hit by shells and the buildings you just mentioned.
3 Were these houses close to it, or were they further away from these
4 buildings you just mentioned?
5 A. This was where the police station was. That was close to the
6 municipal building. As for the other one, well, it was near the post
7 office, the former committee, the bank. All of this was shelled. It was
8 all in the same area. And I'm really surprised how this house that was
9 close to the municipal building was not hit.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you for that answer.
11 Now, Mr. Ilic, when you gave your statement about looting, what
12 do you exactly understand looting to be?
13 A. Well, they looted the basic essentials, you know, beds and pots
14 and pans. What else could you loot? There was nothing else there. No
15 boards or wood were taken away, but if they found -- whatever they could
16 find. If they found bed or beds, whatever they found. It depends.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, could I take you first to the -- to the
18 time when you left Donji Lapac and went to Oraovac.
19 During that time, did you see anyone taking goods, and, if so,
20 what kind of goods?
21 A. No, not at that time. I didn't see it at the time when I left
22 Lapac for Oraovac. I didn't see any looting then, by anyone.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, after you had returned, you told us about
24 the looting had started, and we find in your statement that refugees from
25 Bosnia
Page 7583
1 living."
2 Now, when you were talking about looting, did you refer to this
3 taking goods you would need for living?
4 A. Talking to whom? To whom did I say that I needed that? I didn't
5 quite understand your question.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Well, what I see in your statement, you said: "I
7 was told that refugees from Bosnia
8 them for living."
9 And apparently you are referring to the situation after you had
10 returned to Donji Lapac. You also --
11 A. Yes. Yes, that's right.
12 JUDGE ORIE: You also testified that at a certain moment the
13 looting started.
14 Now, when you talked about looting, were you referring to taking
15 the goods --
16 A. Go on, go on.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Were you referring to taking the goods --
18 A. Well, how else can I describe this? They took these carts, they
19 put whatever they could on them and then just drove them away. So what
20 else could you call it but looting? If -- if you meaning is else, of
21 course, then, you would use another word. I couldn't say anything else.
22 I could just say it the way I did.
23 JUDGE ORIE: I'm trying to fully understand your testimony in
24 this respect.
25 I think you said that you needed a bed as well and that you may
Page 7584
1 have been seeking a bed for your own needs. Is that correct?
2 A. Yes, of course. Of course it's correct. Because there was
3 nothing in my house, so I looked for some sofa or even an old one just to
4 have something to lie down so -- so I wouldn't have to lie down on the
5 concrete on the floor.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, what you saw others doing was that
7 similar to what you did; that is, if I need a bed, I take one bed for my
8 own personal needs, or did you see people taking more than what they
9 would need for their personal life?
10 A. Well, let me describe it exactly. I saw situations where they
11 had electric stoves or refrigerators and they would take these away, drag
12 away. Whatever they found that was still in working order, they took it
13 away. They took it away -- carted it away.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And then would they then take one refrigerator
15 because I would understand one refrigerator to be for the personal need
16 of one family, or did you see them loading more than what one family
17 would need?
18 A. Ma'am [sic], to be honest with you, I didn't really know I knew
19 them -- I didn't know them then, and I don't know them now; and I
20 couldn't tell you whether this was Franjo or Mario doing it. Well, at
21 the time I didn't know them, now I do, but at that time I didn't; so I
22 couldn't tell who it was because I didn't know them.
23 JUDGE ORIE: I'm not asking you who it was, I'm asking you what
24 you saw people taking goods whether you gained the impression that this
25 was for their personal needs or whether it went beyond that and that they
Page 7585
1 would take, for example, more refrigerators than a family could possibly
2 use.
3 A. I thought they were taking what they needed. As for the rest, I
4 wasn't really thinking about whether they were taking the things away so
5 they could resell them. I thought they were just taking what they
6 needed. Whether they took anything on top of that, I wouldn't know about
7 that.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Now you also told us about soldiers looting. Was
9 that in a similar way as you saw others doing it; or was it any
10 different?
11 A. It was different. The troops, where they found furniture, where
12 they found building materials, they carted all this away. They would put
13 it on a pile and then bring in trucks, load them on trucks, and take them
14 away.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ilic, I have no further questions for you.
16 Have the questions by the Bench triggered any need --
17 [Trial Chamber confers]
18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Hedaraly, as far as a proper procedural order is
19 concerned, I think I should have given you first an opportunity it put
20 further questions in -- I don't know whether you had any wish to put
21 further questions to the witness, but I should have given you an
22 opportunity to do so.
23 MR. HEDARALY: No, Your Honour.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Have the questions by the Bench raised any need?
25 Then, Mr. Ilic, this concludes your testimony in this court. I'd
Page 7586
1 like to thank you very much for coming to the place where you were
2 examined, and I hope you have a safe trip home again. I hope that you
3 will be, in time, back home so as to be able to celebrate your birthday
4 tomorrow among those close to you.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. Thank you
6 again.
7 JUDGE ORIE: This then concludes the videolink. It can be
8 closed.
9 [The witness's testimony via videolink concluded]
10 JUDGE ORIE: Then I'd like to proceed with the list which was just
11 prepared by our registrar assigning exhibit numbers to the bar table
12 documents that is P727 up to and including P738.
13 Mr. Hedaraly, the registrar was able to reduce the 14 to 12. I
14 take it that you carefully checked the 65 ter list.
15 MR. HEDARALY: We did, Your Honour, and it is accurate.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I had not expected anything else from the
17 registrar.
18 P727 up to and including P738 is admitted into evidence.
19 Finally, Mr. Mikulicic, think that earlier today I was too quick
20 in explaining to you what cross-examination was for and what it was not
21 for. I should have refrained from doing that at that moment, but I
22 missed at least part of the point that you would like to make, and I just
23 want to let you know that that's how I understand it at this moment.
24 MR. MIKULICIC: Your Honour, I'm much obliged to this, but there
25 is really no need -- for your explanation.
Page 7587
1 JUDGE ORIE: I think it is important to be clear on these matters
2 as well.
3 MR. MIKULICIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
4 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
5 JUDGE ORIE: We adjourn until Monday, the 1st of September, 9.00,
6 Courtroom I.
7 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 5.18 p.m.
8 to be reconvened on Monday, the 1st day of
9 September, 2008, at 9.00 a.m.
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