091027IT

Page 23298

1 we were in Knin.

2 Q. Where did you visit in Knin, first of all? What place did you go

3 to initially when you arrived Knin?

4 A. Pursuant to the verbal order I received, we went immediately to

5 the hospital in Knin. I knew where it was located from before so we

6 found it quite soon. It was our intention to organise there a reception

7 centre and an infirmary for wounded or injured soldiers.

8 Q. Did you establish at that time the reception centre?

9 A. It was a rather makeshift version at the time, which enabled us

10 to, over a short period of time, and we had a team of surgeons and nurses

11 from the nearby area, to put the whole thing together and have it up and

12 running.

13 Q. Was this located within the Knin hospital itself?

14 A. Yes. It was right next to the main entrance where the emergency

15 ward existed from before.

16 Q. At that stage, when you were establishing the reception centre,

17 how many operatives within your -- your unit did you have working with

18 you?

19 A. Eight.

20 Q. And the composition of this team that you had was what? Nurses,

21 doctors, if you could describe it to us.

22 A. The team was composed of individuals who had previously been in

23 the village of Marici and had been receiving individuals there. During

24 Operation Storm there was a surgeon, an anesthesiologist, nurses,

25 drivers, myself as a doctor, and male nurses.

Page 23299

1 Q. Did there come a time when you went into Knin town itself, to the

2 railway station?

3 A. As soon as we organised ourselves, I went to get informed, to

4 know what was happening. As you might know, the hospital in Knin is at

5 the edge of town, and we wanted to see what the situation was like in

6 this new environment we came to.

7 Q. And what did you establish within the town, which is of relevance

8 to this case?

9 A. In principle, the town was deserted. There were several broken

10 shop windows, and at the railway station, facing the main square of the

11 town of Knin, I came across a group of uniformed individuals, two or

12 three of whom I recognised because we were members of the same unit back

13 in 1991. As there was a general celebratory mood, we greeted each other

14 cordially and I asked him what it was that they were doing there. They

15 answered, quite reluctantly, that they were charged with sanitation; in

16 other words, with the collection and transport to the cemetery of dead

17 bodies.

18 Q. If I can just ask you a few questions about what you told us

19 there.

20 What -- what unit did they belong to?

21 A. I can't tell you exactly which unit they belonged to at the time.

22 I know that previously they were members of the anti-aircraft defence

23 units. That's what they were members of back in 1991.

24 Q. And did you notice if they had anyone who was particularly in

25 command of them?

Page 23300

1 A. No. No, I didn't know who their commander was. I took it for

2 granted that they had an order which they went about carrying out. I

3 didn't stop to check that, nor was that my duty.

4 Q. And what did you do, as a result of what they told you?

5 A. You know, sir, throughout the war, we feared pits. This is an

6 old tradition from my native land. It was at all times important to us

7 to bury dead soldiers and civilians according to all the standards in

8 full respect of dignity. I -- that's why I went to see what this was all

9 about. There was no order to that effect. I wanted to make sure that

10 this was done properly, and we had to rely -- we had to be resourceful

11 and creative in that respect.

12 Q. Just as a matter of information, for how long had you been

13 involved in dealing with burials of dead bodies during the conflict?

14 A. As I joined the Operations Group Sinj at the end of 1994, and

15 later on, when I joined Operations Group North, I was always present at

16 the front line where, under the rules, the Croatian Army was duty-bound

17 to carry out the proper removal of human bodies and carcasses. In other

18 words, at the front line, I, as the chief of a medical corps, was the

19 person responsible for it. Therefore, my arrival to Knin was nothing

20 novel to me. It wasn't the first time. I had extensive experience, and,

21 believe me when I tell you, that I was doing the job thoroughly and

22 properly as of the end of 1994.

23 Q. Thank you. Did you go to the cemetery in Knin?

24 A. As soon as I heard the information from this group of soldiers, I

25 went to the cemetery right away. I didn't manage to find it at first,

Page 23301

1 but I managed eventually, and it was at my second attempt that I

2 succeeded.

3 There was nobody at the cemetery, but at the end of the cemetery,

4 I noticed an excavator. This convinced me that somebody was already

5 engaged in sanitation and burying individuals. But I didn't find anybody

6 there.

7 Q. And were you with anyone when you visited the cemetery?

8 A. No, I was on my own.

9 Q. And when you saw this -- this excavator, what did you see nearby?

10 A. In its immediate surrounding, there was a hole that had been dug

11 of approximate dimensions 4 by 4 metres. When I came to the edge of that

12 hole, at the bottom of the hole I could see some eight, nine, or ten

13 bodies laid down. I didn't exactly count them, I have to admit.

14 Q. When you saw the hole there with the bodies within, had there

15 been any other signs within the cemetery of the digging of graves or any

16 other place of interment?

17 A. Not at the time. When I came there for the first time, there

18 wasn't anything. I was simply there on my own.

19 Q. At that stage, on the 6th of August, whose responsibility was it

20 for the burial and sanitation -- human sanitation in Knin?

21 A. Since Knin was not at the front line, all the burials, human

22 sanitation were the task of the civilian protection of the Ministry of

23 the Interior.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kay, I have some concerns about whether your

25 question, line 11, 8, was well understood by the witness in view of his

Page 23302

1 answer. I would just like to verify that.

2 Mr. --

3 MR. KAY: Yes. I see what Your Honour mean, yes.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Sruk, Mr. Kay asked you whether, when you came

5 to the cemetery for the first time, whether you saw any other signs of

6 the digging of graves. And from your answer, I take it that you

7 understood the question to be whether you saw any persons digging graves.

8 Is that how you understood the question?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. I understood that I was asked

10 whether any other graves had been buried or whether any other

11 preparations had been made for further interment. This was my

12 understanding.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But I think it was included in the question as

14 well, whether you saw any indicia of people having been buried there

15 recently. The graves perhaps not prepared for being used, but perhaps

16 already being used. Did you see anything which could be understood as

17 indicia for recent opening of the ground and closing it again.

18 MR. KAY: Current -- current burials.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Along the way that I walked on, so

20 from the main entrance by the chapel, this is a rather wide passage,

21 there were old graves on either side of this passage. But I did not walk

22 anywhere else in the cemetery. I simply walked in the direction of the

23 chapel and this is why, at that time, so in the morning hours of the

24 6th of August, to be more precise, it may have been about around 10.00,

25 10.30 in the morning on the 6th of August. It is rather difficult to

Page 23303

1 recall exactly after so much time has lapsed, but bearing all in mind all

2 my other duties at the time, I assume it may have been about 10.00,

3 10.30.

4 So I did not walk around the cemetery but I walked directly in

5 the direction of the excavator because this was what I was interested in.

6 There were graves on either side of this passage, but I have to say, I

7 did not pay too much attention. I was not interested in that. I was

8 interested in the -- in the human sanitation itself.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you for this clarification.

10 Please proceed, Mr. Kay.

11 MR. KAY: Thank you, Your Honour.

12 Q. In relation to what you saw in the hole, the area that had been

13 dug, was there anything that you could do at that stage to deal with the

14 matter? You personally being there.

15 A. Well, quite obviously I couldn't do anything on my own. But it

16 was quite clear that something needed to be done, and whoever did it

17 before was unqualified for the job. And I have to say, when I recall

18 these pictures today, I believe that they did it with the best of

19 intentions.

20 However, at that moment, I physically could not do anything on my

21 own.

22 Q. What did you do next, having seen that -- that site? Where did

23 you going?

24 A. I have to admit that, first of all, I didn't know what to do at

25 all. The town was half empty. At that time we did not even have any

Page 23304

1 internal communication. We could simply use couriers. So I went back to

2 the hospital, and my intention was to try and get in touch with those who

3 were involved with human sanitation. That is with civilian protection

4 service, or whoever could do it from thereon.

5 Q. And was that the civilian -- and was that the civilian protection

6 run by the MUP?

7 A. Yes. Short after I came back to the hospital, my driver brought

8 me a message that members of the civilian protection came - he didn't

9 know where from - and that they were getting ready for sanitation, as I

10 was told at the time, and I quote: "To do it in our way." And this I

11 understood to mean according to all the protocols, and my driver was

12 aware of these protocols and rules.

13 Q. And so what did you do next, in relation to this matter?

14 A. This information that the civilian protection took over the task

15 the of sanitation, at that moment, was enough for me. And soon

16 afterwards, we started with our next task, which we had to carry out, and

17 this was to receive the medical team from Zadar which was supposed to

18 come in and start managing the hospital. One part of that hospital was

19 used by us as infirmary.

20 Q. So did you go to meet the incoming medical team from Zadar?

21 A. Yes. We waited for them there. Actually, we came to the

22 Heliodrom with two vehicles with -- sorry, at the helipad with two

23 vehicles in order to transport them from there to the hospital. The

24 distance is rather long.

25 Q. So did that happen? Did you meet the incoming medical team from

Page 23305

1 Zadar and transport them to the hospital?

2 A. Yes, that is correct.

3 Q. In fact, did they arrive on a helicopter which also contained

4 General Cermak?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. In relation to your duties and responsibilities, did

7 General Cermak have any role at all?

8 A. No. I recognised him at that time, because I simply knew him

9 from TV or newspapers. I did not even know at the time what was the

10 purpose of his visit, why he came there. I was explained that later on.

11 Q. Having taken the medical team to the Knin hospital, did you later

12 revisit the Knin cemetery?

13 A. Yes. So, after we transferred the hospital, so to say, to the

14 Zadar team, I was ordered to urgently inspect a situation along the road

15 Knin-Bosansko Grahovo. I went there with my team, and in passing, we

16 were on the road, but in front of the entrance to the cemetery, I could

17 see a rather large group of people, and then I became personally

18 convinced that these were members of the civilian protection that I heard

19 earlier on were coming in, and they were organising their work, and we

20 could see that from the road.

21 In the afternoon hours, after I came back from my previous task,

22 I personally stopped at the cemetery with my personal driver. The first

23 thing I was interested in, as you can assume, is what happened with what

24 I saw that morning; so, that hole with bodies laid in it and the

25 excavator. At first, I was satisfied because I could immediately see

Page 23306

1 that nearly half of the bodies were already taken out. Some four or five

2 bodies, they were laid at a plateau in front and they were already put in

3 body-bags. I introduced myself. They could see my insignia, the ranks,

4 that I was an officer, so I asked them, I said that obviously I couldn't

5 issue any orders. I was not a commander of theirs. But I asked them to

6 complete their work there, and I said, Please, let us do the rest of this

7 work according to all the rules and regulations of human sanitation.

8 I went back a third time to see the situation as it was in the

9 field, and then I already knew a person who said that he was either

10 responsible or that he was coordinating that work. We jointly visited

11 that group grave, mass grave, whatever you want to call it. I just

12 wouldn't like to call it a pit. And that it -- the ground was levelled,

13 and the bodies, at that time, were already buried in the left-hand side

14 of the cemetery where there was still enough room, and that area, the

15 left-hand side, looking from the entrance into the cemetery, was used for

16 human sanitation purposes from there on in Knin.

17 So the area where the hole was dug out previously was levelled.

18 You could see that it was excavated sometime ago, or not so long ago. I

19 was convinced then, if I may say so, I was so sure that the work was done

20 properly that I even sent some beers to people who did that work in such

21 difficult conditions, because the weather conditions were so difficult.

22 It was very hot. And it is our custom that when you offer a drink to

23 somebody, it means that you are expressing your satisfaction, and this is

24 what I have done as well.

25 Q. If I could look at some of the detail there. Had -- did you

Page 23307

1 discuss with the civilian protection team working there what you had

2 found, what you had seen when you were there earlier in the day? Did you

3 inform them about that?

4 A. Yes, certainly.

5 Q. And did they tell you anything they had done about what you had

6 seen, whether they'd taken any steps to deal with the problem that you

7 had seen?

8 A. I said already that when I came there for the second time, I

9 could see already that approximately half of the bodies were taken out

10 and were dealt with properly. Obviously I couldn't assume that they

11 would leave the second half of the bodies in, because there was a large

12 group of people there and a coordinator was there, so I can guarantee

13 that I saw half of the bodies taken out, and I'm sure that they proceeded

14 with the work in the same way, but it wasn't a pit in which the bodies

15 were thrown but that was simply a way that somebody did a human

16 sanitation task in an unqualified way.

17 Q. Could you describe, then, the type of graves that were there that

18 had been made by that civil protection team, how they dealt with it.

19 Describe how they interred those bodies.

20 A. The bodies were buried in a typical manner in which we usually do

21 it when we bury bodies in the ground. So you have a grave dug out, you

22 put in the body, and you have a small barrow on top, a small mound.

23 When I came there for the third time, I tried to see what it was

24 that they did, and I could see that there were graves, one next to

25 another one. There was a cross on each of these graves, as we would

Page 23308

1 normally put it above the head. The graves were typical graves dug in

2 the same way in which it is customarily done in our country. It is done

3 in this way, even today, if you bury somebody in the ground.

4 Q. You've described earlier the excavator. Do you know how the

5 digging was done in the cemetery at that time? How this civil protection

6 team dug?

7 A. On that day, though I passed by the cemetery the next day -- but

8 I'm not talking about that now. On that first day, people dug graves

9 manually, and then I realised that the excavator I saw was broken down.

10 It was out of order. The next day it still stood there in the same

11 position, unmoved.

12 I assumed that later on they brought new excavators and thereby

13 they could work faster. But what I saw on the first day, it was done

14 manually. This is very difficult work.

15 Q. Did you revisit the cemetery in Knin on any other occasions

16 during the month of August?

17 A. Only once. I was asked by an acquaintance of mine who didn't

18 know where the cemetery was and he wanted to visit a grave of a relative

19 of his. So I took him there, but, on that occasion, I didn't even enter

20 the cemetery. I smoked a -- and I smoked a cigarette in front of the

21 entrance while he visited the grave that he wanted to visit. This was in

22 the second half of August, and I didn't visit the cemetery on any other

23 occasion because this was not a part of my task.

24 Q. Thank you very much. I want to now look at other -- another

25 matter with you.

Page 23309

1 MR. KAY: Can we have Exhibit P506, please.

2 Q. Mr. Sruk, you'll see on that screen to the right again a document

3 coming up that I want you to look at. You've referred to it in your

4 statement.

5 It's dated the 5th of August, 1995, from the Knin garrison,

6 signed by General Cermak, and it contains your name within it. And I

7 want you to look at this document with the Court.

8 We can see that it says because of the situation that has arisen

9 and the need for organised and expert human and animal hygienic and

10 sanitary measures of the liberated region. And there's an order.

11 And it says:

12 "A field hygiene and sanitary measures staff is organised under

13 the command of Garrison Town Knin composed as follows."

14 And we see Brigadier Brkic, Chief of Staff; Dr. Gotovac,

15 assistant chief for epidemiological affairs; Major Dr. Branko Sruk,

16 assistant chief for human hygiene and sanitary measures.

17 Now, you're named in this order. Were you ever part of a team

18 that worked under the command of the Knin garrison?

19 A. When you showed me this order, this was the first time that I

20 ever saw it. So this was in the year 2009. I never was and I could not

21 have been a member of a team, because my order, at the time, was to be

22 chief of the medical team and commander of the operative team of the

23 Operation Group North.

24 On the 5th of August, I was still at the front line with the

25 group of people that I presented to you earlier on.

Page 23310

1 The last four members of this team, the last four names, are two

2 nurses and two drivers, and they could not have been here, because that I

3 would mean that I have been left without nurses and drivers, and I could

4 not operate like that.

5 The order that was still valid for me at the time, on the

6 5th of August and the 6th of August until probably 11th or the

7 12th of August, was as I previously stated. So it is rather clear that

8 even if I wasn't a soldier, I couldn't have been at two places at once.

9 My reports written on the 5th and on the 4th of August to my superiors

10 were sent from the front line, and they clearly indicate that I could not

11 have been here, no matter who issued this order.

12 On the other hand, regardless of the fact that this order was

13 signed by Mr. Cermak, even if I received it, at the time I could not have

14 followed it, because I had an entirely different commander and entirely

15 different orders. So although the military forces were only then being

16 created, nonetheless nobody could go anywhere on one's own initiative.

17 You had to follow the orders which you had.

18 Q. Thank you. We'll work up in reverse order, then, of the names

19 here, as you identified those four who were part of your unit.

20 Captain Boris Radovic, coordinator for animal hygiene and

21 sanitary measures. Did you ever work during this time in a sanitation

22 team with him?

23 A. Up until that point, no. Subsequently, yes. However, at -- in

24 this particular exercise contained in the -- referred to in the document,

25 no.

Page 23311

1 Q. And if you could tell us, then, about Captain Radovic, what his

2 role and job was and whom he worked for?

3 A. Captain Radovic was, to put it simply, my counterpart. What I

4 was in the medical corps, he was in the veterinary field. In other

5 words, he was the chief of the veterinary service.

6 It was only later, pursuant to General Gotovina's order of the

7 11th of August, that he was appointed the coordinator of the mixed team

8 for sanitation, which was within the chain of command, something that

9 came from the staff, and it was a fully valid unit based on the law.

10 Mr. Radovic, who was a veterinarian, was appointed a coordinator. I

11 suppose that were he now alive, he himself would confirm that he never

12 saw the order that we have on our screens now, because he was unable to

13 carry out two tasks at the same time and he had the same commander that I

14 did.

15 Therefore, there was nobody who could have ordered to us, save

16 for our commanders. In other words, the commander of Operations

17 Group North, and commander of the Split Military District.

18 Q. And Captain Radovic, whom you said that you did later work with

19 at that time, was that in connection with this order of the

20 11th of August you just referred to?

21 A. Let me clarify this.

22 The operations and planning logistics from the Main Staff in

23 Zagreb, bearing the signature of General Cervenko, an order arrived

24 concerning the sanitisation -- sanitation of certain areas during and

25 after Operation Storm. The order referred to all the Military Districts

Page 23312

1 and addressed all those who were in the areas of responsibility under the

2 direct command of the Main Staff. I suppose that the order reached

3 Zadar, not Split, because the forward command post of the Split Military

4 District was in Zadar at the time.

5 An order was drafted there, which was signed by General Gotovina

6 on the 11th of August, which contained all the elements of sanitation and

7 everything else that was required in the area covered by the

8 Split Military District, including Knin, as part and parcel of the AOR.

9 At that time, Captain Radovic was appointed a coordinator.

10 At that point, pursuant to the order which arrived from Zagreb, a

11 mixed detachment was set up. It was quite clear to us that

12 General Gotovina had signed the order whilst being fully aware of the

13 vastness of the territory, which had a very small presence of

14 individuals, most of whom had fled before or during Operation Storm. We

15 were aware of the fact that we had to bring in completely new forces to

16 deal with sanitation, be it the removal of human bodies, of carcasses, of

17 any other debris, et cetera. It was an area where none of the facilities

18 were operational. It was a true and proper order.

19 Q. Thank you. Just going up, then, to the next name on the list.

20 Lieutenant Dr. Boris Samardzija. Do you know Lieutenant Samardzija?

21 A. Yes, I know him and I know everybody else very well.

22 Boris Samardzija arrived only sometime on the 8th or 9th from

23 Split. He took part in this exercise as a physician, and his primary

24 role was in the reception centre that I told you about which we had set

25 up on the hospital premises. Whether he was used for some duties other

Page 23313

1 than those, I don't know.

2 Q. Was he used for any duties, in relation to sanitation of the

3 terrain?

4 A. I don't know about that.

5 Q. Thank you. And, again, is he an officer within the

6 Split Military District?

7 A. Yes, he was an officer, member of the 306th Logistics Base in

8 Split.

9 Q. If we go to the next name, moving up. Snjezana Soldic, a vet.

10 Do you know this person?

11 A. Yes. She was a Miss, at the time, a Mrs. today.

12 She was a veterinarian working in the health administration

13 attached to the Ministry of Health. In other words, she was a civilian

14 person who worked at the time for the Ministry of Defence. It was not

15 customary for military personnel to issue civilians employed there any

16 sort of orders.

17 She was there for a couple of days, and it was more of a

18 supervisory role that she had, and it was after the 10th or the 11th of

19 August that she spent these two days in Knin. She stayed in home that

20 was next to our infirmary housed in the hospital. She did not take any

21 -- any active part in sanitation, and I don't really know what it is that

22 she would be doing there.

23 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: She worked for the

24 health administration within the Ministry of Defence.

25 MR. KAY: Thank you.

Page 23314

1 Q. In relation to your work, did you work with her at all?

2 A. Not at the time.

3 Q. We've dealt with your position. Let's look at Dr. Gotovac,

4 assistant chief for epidemiological affairs. Do you know Dr. Gotovac?

5 A. Of course. In this initial phase of some ten days, Dr. Gotovac

6 was not in Knin. He arrived only after the 10th or the 11th; roughly a

7 week after Operation Storm. He is, indeed, a specialist in epidemiology,

8 and he was also working for the health administration of the Ministry of

9 Defence.

10 However, his role at the time was as some sort of supervisor; in

11 other words, he was supposed to oversee the sanitation process. I

12 believe he even drew up a report. But he did not only come to Knin, he

13 visited other Military Districts in the aftermath of Operation Storm. He

14 could not have taken part in anything on the 5th of August, because he

15 wasn't tasked to, and, again, he was an employee of the Ministry of

16 Defence.

17 Q. And lastly, Dr. Brkic, identified as Chief of Staff of this team.

18 First of all, did you work with Dr. Brkic at all during this

19 period in Knin?

20 A. We came across each other on several occasions.

21 I must admit that he tried, to put it that way, to coax these

22 four people of mine, two drivers and two nurses, to join him. Now, of

23 course, since we had completely different tasks that we were dealing, we

24 were unable to cooperate. There was no need for it. And officially

25 there was no cooperation. I received -- had I received an order from my

Page 23315

1 superiors to establish any sort of cooperation, I would have. However,

2 my superiors didn't even know that Dr. Brkic was forming any sort of

3 staff and that he was engaging in sanitation, since we were all aware of

4 the fact that it was the civilian protection that engaged in sanitation.

5 It was a bit difficult at first because of the shortage of personnel, and

6 it improved gradually. In other words, there was no need for any sort of

7 staff. Ultimately, under the rules, under the law, this role should have

8 been carried out by the civilian protection, because it didn't have to

9 do, in this instance, with the battlefield.

10 Q. Do you know exactly what Dr. Brkic was doing then in Knin?

11 Perhaps if can I put the question in stages. You obviously know

12 Dr. Brkic; is that correct?

13 A. Correct.

14 Q. Did you know what he was doing in Knin at this time, what his

15 task and responsibilities were?

16 A. When I saw him first, I found it unusual, I must admit. I

17 thought that it was merely a courtesy visit from members of the

18 Ministry of Defence. I thought that he was there to give us a piece of

19 advice. Otherwise, it was not customary for individuals from such a

20 level to pay a visit to us, in order to directly engage in any sort of

21 activity.

22 Very soon, I realised that there was no order or rule based on

23 which he would do anything there.

24 Let me alert you to the fact that as part of preparations for

25 Operation Storm, we knew directly from General Gotovina and other

Page 23316

1 commanders what sort of action would be taken along which axes. And as I

2 wrote instructions for logistics support, and therefore for sanitation as

3 well, we knew that the sanitisation of an area that was outside of the

4 direct combat zone, such as Knin, Drnis, Kistanje, et cetera, would be

5 taken over by the civilian protection. Therefore, anything else would be

6 in direct violation of the documents or the orders that we received from

7 our superiors.

8 Q. I'd like you now to look at a report that he filed dated the

9 12th of August, 1995.

10 MR. KAY: Exhibit D30, please.

11 Q. This is a document referred to in your statement. Do you

12 recollect there is this report and several other reports, one to

13 Mr. Cervenko -- General Cervenko, one to Mr. Susak, one to

14 General Gotovina, and you comment on them in your statement. I'm not

15 going through each of them, but I'd like to you look at this one as being

16 an example, and it is a report on sanitation and hygiene measures taken

17 in the period. It refers to the 5th of August. And you've commented

18 on -- on that order. And it refers to human sanitation measures.

19 And he, in page 2 of the English, and in the main paragraph of

20 the Croatian document, it refers to:

21 "In Knin itself ... bodies of enemy soldiers were partially

22 moved; namely, the rest could not be seen nor did they smell in view of

23 the recent operation."

24 And he refers to the church and finding an excavator with a large

25 hole that had been dug with several bodies. And he refers to:

Page 23317

1 "Aware that this was not the procedure to be followed, I issued

2 an order to Mr. Ivan Jelic, engineer, to deal with the bodies in

3 conformity with the Geneva Convention."

4 That name there, Mr. Jelic, an engineer, is that familiar to you?

5 A. No.

6 Q. The civil protection team that you came across on the 6th, would

7 they be described as engineers or anything like -- like that? Do you

8 know what the phrase here "engineer," or the word "engineer" refers to?

9 A. Members of the civilian protection wore grey uniforms. I

10 remember one of them. I think they were mobilised members of the

11 Ministry of Defence. I don't think that they necessarily needed to be

12 engineers. They were supposed to apply hygiene and sanitation measures

13 in accordance with all the standards.

14 The name doesn't ring any bells. I don't see why somebody should

15 be an engineer or not. These were mobilised personnel. I realised a day

16 later that they came from all over Croatia, including Zagreb. We were

17 unable to man the team from among our ranks in Split and in the south,

18 and I realised later on that MUP had taken upon itself to mobilise these

19 people from across the country.

20 This person, Jelic, if he was among then, I had never heard of

21 him.

22 Q. We then go to the part of the report where the 6th of August,

23 1995, is referred to, and the fact that the president of the Republic

24 arrived.

25 And do you recollect that event, that President Tudjman arrived

Page 23318

1 in Knin on that day?

2 A. Yes. I was not able to be personally present there. I told you

3 that this was at the time when I was out in the field between the two

4 visits that I paid to the hospital.

5 I knew of the event. I don't see what it has to do with the

6 report that was written, to tell you the truth.

7 Q. Looking at the next paragraph, he refers to the morning of the

8 7th of August, 1995, arriving at the cemetery, finding the hole behind

9 the church covered up. He received no answer as to who had done it. And

10 it became clear to him that his presence was indispensable:

11 "... due to the delicate nature of the work and other actions.

12 The team formed, as can be seen from your order, took matters into its

13 own hands and together with the civil protection staff produced results

14 which conformed to all rules of hygiene and sanitation measures; that is,

15 the bodies which were in a common room were separated and buried

16 individually."

17 Now we've looked at the team, and you've made your comments upon

18 those individuals in the order dated the 5th of August. Just looking at

19 that assertion here, that on the 7th of August, that team, which included

20 you and some of your staff, took matters into its own hands and with

21 civil protection staff produced results which conformed to all rules of

22 hygiene and sanitation measures, and the bodies were separated and buried

23 individually, on the 7th of August, 1995.

24 As a relation -- in relation to that assertion in this report, is

25 that correct?

Page 23319

1 MR. CARRIER: Mr. President.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Carrier.

3 MR. CARRIER: I'm just not sure that characterisation of when

4 they were buried or separated and buried is accurate. If Mr. Kay could

5 review that portion and perhaps readdress that.

6 MR. KAY: Well, it says in the morning of the 7th of August, he

7 arrived. He found the hole. He found that his presence was

8 indispensable. The team formed, as can be seen from your order, and

9 that's the order of the 5th of August, took matters into its own hands

10 and together with civil protection staff produced resulted which

11 conformed to all rules of hygiene and sanitation measures; that is, the

12 bodies were separated and buried individually.

13 It seems to me the assertion here that that is quite clearly on

14 the 7th of August, his alleged team and civil protection dealt with the

15 burial of these bodies individually as a team.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I think Mr. Carrier points at the line where

17 it says:

18 "The bodies which were in a common room were separated and buried

19 individually."

20 You left out the common room. Is that --

21 MR. CARRIER: No. It's that Mr. Kay added that they were

22 separated and buried individually on the 7th of August, 1995, taking the

23 first part of the paragraph of and putting it on the last part of the

24 paragraph and trying to make it seem that's what had happened.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that apparently is the --

Page 23320

1 MR. KAY: [Overlapping speakers] -- make anything seem anything,

2 other than read it out.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Well, let's -- let's --

4 MR. KAY: Excuse me.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kay, if you could --

6 MR. KAY: I will redo --

7 JUDGE ORIE: -- phrase your question again perhaps by just

8 literally reading, then --

9 MR. KAY:

10 Q. Can you read this paragraph and you comment on it and tell us

11 whether this event happened as described in the paragraph, Mr. Sruk.

12 A. Sir, may I comment on the entire report? Quite briefly.

13 Q. I want you to comment on this paragraph and then I will give you

14 an opportunity to comment on the entire report. But this paragraph which

15 has this matter in it --

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, and --

17 MR. KAY:

18 Q. You read it yourself.

19 JUDGE ORIE: That's fine, Mr. Kay. And then you asked the

20 witness whether this event happened or not. Let's -- shouldn't we first

21 ask whether he was present during such an event, and if the answer is

22 yes, then, of course, he can comment on what happened. If the answer is

23 no, then, of course, the witness may have other sources of knowledge on

24 this event. But then at least we know what his source of knowledge is.

25 MR. KAY: Right.

Page 23321

1 Q. Did you and the individuals identified in that order take part in

2 the burial of those bodies that you described seeing on the

3 6th of August?

4 A. No. But the bodies were exhumed and then buried by the evening

5 of the 6th. Mr. Brkic arrives on the 7th. He was not in Knin on the

6 6th.

7 The first part is evidently a description based on the stories he

8 heard. He arrives at the cemetery on the 7th, and it is true that he

9 finds that the hole had been covered in, and he said that it's a delicate

10 matter. But, you see, the problem lies in this. What would have

11 happened, had the pit been covered in with the bodies inside? And

12 this -- this is why I had always asked for my commanders to give me

13 permission to give bodies a proper burial. So the bodies were

14 disinterred and were then interred individually. They were given a

15 proper burial. Already, on the evening of the 6th, the large hole had

16 been filled in, and that's how he found it on the 7th.

17 However, what preceded the prelude was different to what is

18 explained in this report. And what's more suspicious is that the

19 document doesn't even have a proper reference number, and this begs the

20 question of what sort of report is this, after all.

21 Q. That's all I ask on that matter, and you have dealt with the

22 reports in your statement in detail.

23 MR. KAY: Your Honour, I'm just trying to find the reference to

24 the 11th of August order that the witness cited during his evidence, and

25 I -- I noticed that I didn't mention to you which document he was

Page 23322

1 referring to. It's Exhibit P496, which is part of his statement, and he

2 dealt with it extemporaneously rather than looking at the document, and I

3 wanted to link that up for Your Honour as to the particular document that

4 was being cited by the witness.

5 I hope that assists the Court.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, thank you for that.

7 MR. KAY: Your Honour, that's all I ask Mr. Sruk. Thank you.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. May I first inquire with the parties as to how

9 much time they would need.

10 MR. MISETIC: Mr. President, 20 to 30 minutes.

11 JUDGE ORIE: 20 to 30 minutes, because we started on the basis of

12 the assumption that Mr. Kay would take half a session where he took one

13 session.

14 Mr. Mikulicic.

15 MR. MIKULICIC: I will have no questions, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE ORIE: No questions.

17 Mr. Carrier.

18 MR. CARRIER: Mr. President, I have a session and a half.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Session and a half.

20 Which means that we have to be very efficient in order to finish

21 at 1.30 p.m. Could the parties keep that in mind, that is, to get to the

22 core of what they want to elicit as evidence from the witness without too

23 many side roads. We'll first --

24 MR. KAY: We revised our estimate to one session, as I recall,

25 sent a notice.

Page 23331

1 be providing the persons for the clear-up of human bodies of the workers.

2 Now, this order, is that in fact how after the 11th of August the

3 work tasks were divided, that essentially the HV was providing logistical

4 support, and the MUP was providing the forensic technicians and the

5 personnel to clear up human bodies?

6 A. That is correct.

7 Q. Thank you, Dr. Sruk.

8 MR. MISETIC: Mr. President, I have no further questions.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Misetic.

10 Mr. Carrier, are you ready to cross-examine Mr. Sruk?

11 MR. CARRIER: Yes. Thank you, Mr. President.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Sruk, you will now be cross-examined by

13 Mr. Carrier. Mr. Carrier is counsel for the Prosecution.

14 Please proceed.

15 Cross-examination by Mr. Carrier:

16 Q. Mr. Sruk, when you arrived Knin, were you aware that Dr. Brkic

17 was already there, starting on the 5th of August, 1995?

18 A. No. I saw him only on the 7th.

19 Q. So just to clarify, is it your position that he was not there; or

20 you just didn't know whether or not, in fact, Dr. Brkic was already

21 there?

22 A. I arrived on the morning of the 6th. I'm not sure what had been

23 happening on the 5th, and I saw him on the 7th of August.

24 Q. I'm just trying to clarify your evidence today because at

25 page 30, starting at about line 1 and on through half the page, with

Page 23332

1 respect to the exhumation of bodies that took place in the cemetery, you

2 said that Dr. Brkic arrived on the 7th, that he was not in Knin on the

3 6th.

4 So is it that you just don't know if he was there on the 6th

5 either, or the 5th or -- I mean, he could have been around, you just

6 don't know? You're just assuming that here?

7 A. During the 6th, throughout the day, I was in touch with very many

8 people belonging to the medical corps and sanitation teams, and it would

9 have been very strange that I didn't come across him or that he didn't

10 look us up in fact. So I cannot claim that he wasn't there, but I didn't

11 see him.

12 Q. Okay. Well, Mr. Sruk, there's a lot more information in that

13 answer that you just gave than was necessary. The answer is no, you

14 didn't know whether he was there on the 5th or the 6th. You just don't

15 know; right?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Do you know Mr. Zeljko Jonjic from the 306th Logistics Base?

18 A. Jonjic? Jonjic?

19 Q. Jonjic.

20 A. Yes, I do know a Jonjic.

21 Q. And were you aware that he was temporarily assigned to the Knin

22 garrison in August 1995 as assistant for logistics at General Cermak 's

23 request?

24 A. Later on, seven or eight days later, I learned that he was

25 assigned there along with some other people. But during the first four

Page 23333

1 or five days, I wasn't aware of that.

2 Q. But during those first four or five days, did you see that person

3 in and around Knin at all?

4 A. Earlier I saw him, but during the first four or five days that I

5 spent in Knin, I didn't see him.

6 Q. Mr. Sruk, I just want to try to clarify something in your

7 statement, and just let me know if I'm mischaracterising this at all, but

8 is it fair to say that, in essence, your position is that, as far as you

9 are aware, General Cermak was not officially involved in the sanitation

10 operation conducted after Storm and that, as far as you know, he had no

11 authority over those people that were conducting that sanitation

12 operation?

13 A. In the first four or five days, particularly in the first two

14 days, he certainly had no authority, because he was never mentioned by

15 anybody concerning this particular matter. Later on, I don't know.

16 Q. And just to be clear, even -- even though you hadn't heard

17 General Cermak mentioned in the first few days, it's just that you don't

18 know exactly exam his role was, if he had any at all, with the sanitation

19 operation being conducted. Is that fair?

20 A. I really do not know what was his role in respect to the civil

21 protection. But everything that started about noon on the 6th was

22 carried out by the civilian protection service of the Ministry of the

23 Interior. What was his role in respect of them, I really don't know.

24 Q. And with respect to Dr. Brkic, in your statement and during your

25 testimony, you said that you're obviously aware that he was in Knin

Page 23334

1 during August 1995. In your statement, you said you did not cooperate

2 with him officially. And you said that during your testimony, that you

3 weren't officially cooperating with him, and the same goes for, as far as

4 I understood it, General Cermak, that you weren't ordered to do that, but

5 you mentioned it as an official cooperation.

6 Did you cooperate with either of these people unofficially or

7 informally in any way, with respect to the sanitation operation?

8 A. With General Cermak, no. I hardly saw him. Twice in Knin. Once

9 when he came, and on another occasion I passed by him.

10 When it comes to Dr. Brkic, I never cooperated him regarding the

11 sanitation. Neither officially nor unofficially.

12 Q. And just very briefly with respect to the order that you've

13 looked at today with Mr. Kay and also during the time when you gave your

14 statement, the order from General Cermak appointing you to the sanitation

15 staff, you said today, I believe, that, you know, no one else or none of

16 your superiors were aware of that order. Were you aware that when

17 Dr. Brkic, in those reports that you also looked at during the time you

18 gave your statement, had actually attached that order from General Cermak

19 to those reports, and he sent them to Defence Minister Susak,

20 Main Staff -- chief of the Main Staff, General Cervenko; the assistant

21 minister for defence for logistics, Major-General Zagarac. He also sent

22 it to the commander of the Split Military District, General Gotovina. He

23 also sent that order to chief of civil protection, Mr. Cimiran.

24 Were you ever aware or did you ever become aware of the fact that

25 this order from General Cermak that appointed you had been circulating

Page 23335

1 through all these people, some of which, if I'm not mistaken, are in fact

2 superior to you?

3 A. The order and the reports that you are mentioning, I saw them for

4 the first time two months ago, when they were shown to me by Mr. Cermak's

5 Defence team.

6 Q. So even though all those names are mentioned in there, and you

7 went through them today and picked out who they were and that you knew

8 them, despite the fact that these were circulating around, you were never

9 aware of it in any way. No one ever talked about it, no one filed a

10 contemporaneous report, order or some kind of direction contesting that

11 order.

12 You are not aware of anything like that during the period?

13 A. Sir, at the time, it was difficult to believe in rumours, and

14 even if anybody told me something, I would not have believed it. The

15 times were very serious. Unfortunately, or luckily, even the people

16 belonging to my team, whom I mentioned previously, were not aware of

17 this. Had they known about this, they would have told me so, and I

18 probably would have acted upon it in some way.

19 Q. During August 1995, did you ever attend any meetings that were

20 held by --

21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. -- could we seek a clarification of the previous

22 answer, Mr. Carrier.

23 You were asked whether you were not aware of anything like people

24 talking about the order, or receiving a contemporaneous report. Then

25 your answer was:

Page 23336

1 "It was difficult to believe in rumours."

2 And then later you said:

3 "Even the people belonging to my team were not aware of this."

4 Were there any rumours? Whether you believed them or not is

5 another ...

6 So you did not hear anyone talk about it, whether you believed it

7 or not?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.

10 Please proceed.

11 MR. CARRIER: Thank you, Mr. President.

12 Q. Mr. Sruk, did you ever attend any meetings that were held by

13 General Cermak during August 1995?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Would you have any explanation if Mr. Jonjic placed you at

16 meetings held by General Cermak during 1995?

17 A. No. No, I certainly did not attend them. And for a long time, I

18 was not aware of the location of the garrison command.

19 Q. And, Mr. Sruk, I just want to clarify another part of your

20 statement. And again correct me if I'm mischaracterising this. Is it

21 fair that in essence your position with respect to Dr. Brkic is that

22 effectively he was a self-promotor that went to Knin on his own accord,

23 and he simply tried to adopted and report on the work of the people who

24 were actually involved in sanitation operation, conducted during

25 August 1995, to make himself look important?

Page 23337

1 A. On the 13th or the 14th of August, 1995, Mr. Brkic was removed

2 from his duty, at a time when he was still in Knin, which is yet another

3 indication of the fact that he was there without the knowledge of his

4 superiors, on his own initiative.

5 How can one explain the date of the 5th of August, when

6 General Cermak, or I, or any of those mentioned in the order were not

7 there, nor did he know whether we were dead or alive? By that time, I

8 had already spent four and a half years in the armed forces, and the fact

9 is that my name was known in these circles. All these orders sent in --

10 in this chaotic way, without the respect for the chain of command, point

11 me or lead me to conclude -- led me to conclude and still lead me to

12 conclude that whatever he did was for his self-promotion by drawing upon

13 the achievements of others and the jobs performed by others.

14 When it comes to me, when I got there, I found that the job had

15 been properly and thoroughly done by the civilian protection service in

16 those four to five days before General Gotovina issued his order and some

17 order was brought to the whole set-up.

18 Now, the fact that there is mention of me in these reports sent

19 to the Main Staff and Generals, I believe is completely misplaced,

20 because I was not there. When we first had the occasion to get

21 acquainted with Mr. Brkic, it all became quite clear to us.

22 Q. Now, you say that he was removed from his duty on 13th or

23 14th of August, 1995. I'm not aware of that. Can you explain that a bit

24 more? Who removed him? How do you know about that? What is your actual

25 knowledge of that?

Page 23338

1 A. The documents shown to me confirm this, although I don't have an

2 order to that effect, or as the ministry would normally issue decisions,

3 I can only see his signature in a report where he reports to the chief of

4 the Main Staff, General Cervenko, on all these tasks that had been

5 referred in the various reports referenced by Mr. Kay here.

6 This goes to prove that he was no longer the chief of the health

7 administration of the Ministry of Defence, but, rather, that he was

8 transferred to the staff. Let me tell you that the hierarchy --

9 Q. Okay, Mr. Brkic [sic], I'm going to cut you off.

10 A. -- in the ministry, although it was not a military hierarchy --

11 Q. I'm going to cut you off, Mr. -- sorry, Mr. Sruk, I have to cut

12 you off because it is not really answering the question. It is a very

13 specific question.

14 I'd like to know without assuming anything, because now you're

15 coming up with an explanation based on assumptions, what specifically do

16 you know about him being removed from his post on the 13th or

17 14th of August? And do you actually know that, or are you just assuming

18 it?

19 A. No, I know this for a fact. I don't know the exact date.

20 Now, what I was trying to explain to you just now is that in the

21 documents that exist - I have them in my bag here, and they were shown to

22 me by Mr. Cermak's Defence a couple of months ago - you can see that he

23 no longer signed with the title of the chief of health administration of

24 the Ministry of Defence but as a chief in the staff. I have a document

25 indicating this. I don't know it off the cuff, but if you show it to me,

Page 23339

1 I can indicate that section to you.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Sruk, what you're actually doing is drawing

3 conclusions from a difference in the way that documents were signed by

4 Mr. Brkic.

5 Do you have any other knowledge, that is, direct knowledge, that

6 could be -- well, could perhaps be explained in many ways. But do you

7 have any other specific knowledge of Mr. Brkic being removed from his

8 job?

9 MR. KAY: Your Honour, there is reference in the Brkic reports

10 to: "I hope I have justified my presence. Dr. Zdilar has helped me a

11 great deal. For instance" --

12 JUDGE ORIE: If you -- yes.

13 MR. KAY: If I give you the reference.

14 JUDGE ORIE: [Overlapping speakers] ...

15 MR. KAY: It's in these multiplied reports --

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes --

17 MR. KAY: -- D1060 --

18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kay. There are two different matters.

19 MR. KAY: Oh sorry.

20 JUDGE ORIE: The first is what this witness knows and from what

21 sources. And the second is, I mean, I can state something where it's

22 unclear where my knowledge comes from, even whether I have proper

23 knowledge, which does not necessarily mean that what I'm say something

24 not correct or true. Nevertheless, I would appreciate if you give me the

25 reference.

Page 23340

1 MR. KAY: I think it's relevant to the question if the witness is

2 being tested on his --

3 JUDGE ORIE: Well, let's -- if you give me the --

4 MR. KAY: D1060, page 2 in the English. If you go to P543, last

5 page in the English. And it's a phrase that's repeated in these reports

6 that he sent around.

7 That's all I say. I don't know whether the witness is being

8 challenged or whether the fact is being challenge. But it --

9 JUDGE ORIE: No. That's -- that is still -- as a matter of fact,

10 I wasn't challenging any fact. I was just -- where Mr. Carrier asked the

11 witness what the source of his knowledge was, I then verified whether

12 this was the exclusive source or whether he had any other source of

13 knowledge. That's what we were doing, and now you're pointing us to the

14 substance of what the witness said, and I -- I'm glad to -- to verify

15 that. But that's a different matter.

16 Please proceed.

17 MR. CARRIER: Thank you, Mr. President.

18 Q. Mr. Sruk, in relation to your characterisation of Dr. Brkic, you

19 also state that General Cermak did not have enough knowledge to know what

20 it was that Dr. Brkic was doing, in effect. Can you explain your factual

21 basis for knowing what it was that General Cermak actually knew about

22 what General Brkic was doing or anything else to do with the sanitation

23 operation happening in Knin during August 1997 -- or 1995.

24 A. I said that General Cermak evidently didn't have all the

25 information, because he signed an order with me as the Deputy Chief for

Page 23341

1 sanitation; whereas, I had different commanders. My chain of command was

2 a different one, which led me to conclude that he was not privy to the

3 facts or that the facts were not presented to him.

4 Q. So just to be clear, is it fair to say that you don't know

5 exactly what General Cermak knew about the sanitation operation or

6 exactly what his relationship was with Dr. Brkic during August 1995?

7 A. I don't know the extent of his knowledge or the nature of his

8 relationship with Dr. Brkic.

9 Q. Mr. Sruk, I just want to turn now to the -- that hole you saw in

10 the Knin cemetery again. And I think we've sorted it out. You weren't

11 really sure when Dr. Brkic was in Knin in early August 1995, yet in your

12 statement and today, you're describing a situation where you're saying

13 that you're sure that those bodies that you saw earlier in the day on the

14 6th of August had been buried properly, and that basically you're saying

15 that Dr. Brkic's account of this instance is not true, that you know

16 basically that these bodies were properly buried on the evening of the

17 6th of August. And so there is no way that all these reports where

18 Dr. Brkic is reporting on an improper burial, those are all incorrect.

19 Is that fair?

20 A. I said and described what I saw. Now, what Dr. Brkic saw and

21 when, I don't know. The dead bodies were disinterred from the hole and

22 buried in accordance with the standards. What I don't know is whether

23 they were registered and identified. I know that the bodies were

24 individually buried and that the hole was filled in.

25 Suspicions are merely suspicions. I'm describing what I saw with

Page 23342

1 my own two eyes. I'm not telling you the stories I heard from others. I

2 was lucky enough to see the end result, and I am still proud of the fact

3 that we were able -- or, rather, other people were able to do it properly

4 and that I was able to witness it.

5 Q. Okay. So I take it there would be absolutely no reason for the

6 Ministry of Interior to dig up those bodies again on the

7 11th of August and rebury them?

8 A. I don't understand the question.

9 Q. The question is this: Given your testimony and your statement,

10 that you went to -- well, in your statement you went to the Knin cemetery

11 twice. During your testimony you went three times to basically witness

12 this proper burial of bodies, which you initially saw a hole that wasn't

13 proper, and you went back. You wanted to make sure it was going to be

14 done properly, and you're testifying that it was done properly.

15 My question is: If that is what happened, then you can think of

16 no reason why Dr. Brkic would be ordering that the hole that he was

17 referring to be dug up and the bodies be buried properly?

18 A. I have never heard of that.

19 MR. CARRIER: Mr. Registrar, could we please have document number

20 65 ter 7162 on the screen, please.

21 Q. Mr. Sruk, what's going to come up on the screen is a report from

22 the chief of the Zadar-Knin police administration, Mr. Cetina, dated

23 12 August 1995. And if you look at this report, Mr. Cetina indicates

24 that on orders from Dr. Brkic, an exhumation took place on the

25 11th of August, 1995, in the Knin cemetery, in respect of bodies that

Page 23343

1 were buried before the 7th of August, 1995, contrary to the regulations

2 of international law. Mr. Cetina describes transferring bodies and

3 burying them in appropriate places and changing certain identification

4 numbers.

5 So my question for you, Mr. Sruk, is: How do you reconcile your

6 observations of the 6th of August and your testimony that these were

7 properly buried with Mr. Cetina's report about bodies being exhumed and

8 transferred for burial in appropriate place on the 11th, on orders of

9 Dr. Brkic?

10 A. This is the first time I'm seeing this. I don't know if it

11 refers to the same site. I don't know if something was done

12 subsequently. I can stand by what I said and saw, which was that the

13 matter was dealt with properly. What this was about, I really don't

14 know. I have never seen it before.

15 Q. So am I to understand your evidence is now that you're not sure

16 if the hole you saw is now the same one that you had referred to earlier

17 as the one that Dr. Brkic was talking about. It could be a different

18 one, a different site. I think we can agree it's the Knin cemetery,

19 though; right?

20 A. The pit I was referring to and have been discussing all along has

21 been clearly identified by me. It was right next to the gate and to the

22 chapel. This is the detail I was discussing. Whether there were others,

23 that's something I don't know.

24 Q. And given the document, can you offer any explanation as to how

25 it is that Dr. Brkic is issuing orders to people involved in the

Page 23344

1 sanitation process, specifically members of the Ministry of Interior?

2 A. I didn't want to comment on it. I find it strange. It wasn't

3 either customary or envisaged by any rules. The MUP is a civilian

4 organisation; the armed forces and the Ministry of Defence have a

5 separate chain of command. How this came about is something I cannot

6 comment on. I don't know.

7 MR. CARRIER: Your Honours, I ask that that document be marked as

8 an exhibit, please.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kay, any objections.

10 MR. KAY: No objections, Your Honour.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.

12 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that becomes Exhibit P2652.

13 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence.

14 Please proceed, Mr. Carrier.

15 MR. CARRIER: Thank you, Mr. President.

16 Q. Mr. Sruk, would you have any explanation as to why General Cermak

17 would say to Prosecution investigators that Dr. Brkic was in charge of

18 the Knin cemetery with respect to burial of bodies during the beginning

19 of August 1995?

20 A. I don't know that.

21 Q. And, Mr. Sruk, just to be fair to you, is it just that you don't

22 know really anything about who was in -- or specifically in command and

23 control, issuing orders, instructions, that type of thing, to the civil

24 protection bodies involved in sanitation operation after Storm?

25 A. Yes, I do know. I don't know about the first one or two days.

Page 23345

1 Later on, it was Mr. Cicak. And to the best of my knowledge, he was in

2 command of or in charge of or coordinating his -- I cannot call them

3 units. His department -- or how should I call it? I don't know what the

4 title was, the civilian department, and he ran the department. I know

5 that he was coordinating these activities. I wouldn't say that he was in

6 command. I don't know what the official terminology of the time was.

7 Q. And -- sorry, is that Mr. Cicak or Mr. Cicko?

8 A. I think his name is Cicak. Cicak. Cicek.

9 Q. So if I suggest to that you Damir Cicko was actually the

10 representative of the Ministry of the Interior coordinator for the

11 sanitation of Knin, you don't know anything about that?

12 A. Yes, yes. It has to do with him. But, you see, it's been

13 15 years. Whether it was Cicko or Cicek, it's the same as with Jonjic or

14 Janic. We agreed that it was one and the same person we had in mind.

15 Q. And do you know a person named Damir Cimiran. This is the

16 assistant -- the chief of the civil protection. And he was, according to

17 Assistant Minister Zidovec, the main civil protection official on the

18 ground after Operation Storm, and he was tasked with supervising and

19 coordinating the work of civil protection units on the ground.

20 Do you know that person?

21 A. No. I wasn't a member of any team charged with coordinating.

22 What happened on the evening of the 6th was the extent of my intervention

23 into the sanitation process in Knin, excluding the battlefield.

24 Q. So I take it, then, you would have no information about

25 Mr. Cimiran reporting to the Assistant Minister who's the head of civil

Page 23346

1 protection, Minister Zidovec, where he actually references to Dr. Brkic

2 in reports and interactions between Dr. Brkic and civil protection, and

3 even cites some disagreements between or disagreement at least between

4 Mr. Cicko and Dr. Brkic with regard to how to bury bodies. You don't

5 know anything about that?

6 A. Not from personal knowledge. I was told that there were

7 confrontations, conflicts and misunderstanding. I can't confirm them. I

8 only heard about them.

9 Q. And you're talking about conflicts between individuals and groups

10 involved in the sanitation process, and those people having conflicts

11 with Dr. Brkic.

12 A. I'm referring specifically to the conflict between Mr. Cicko and

13 Dr. Brkic. I'm not referring to groups. I'm not aware of there being

14 more than one group, and that was the civilian protection.

15 Q. And, Mr. Sruk, in -- were you aware that soon after this report I

16 just referred to, from Chief Cimiran about the conflict between Mr. Cicko

17 and Dr. Brkic, that General Cermak specifically requested that Mr. Cicko

18 be transferred from civil defence or civil protection on to his staff for

19 the sanitation in the Knin garrison?

20 Do you have any information or do you know that?

21 A. At the time, I didn't know anything about it. I saw a piece of

22 information two months ago when I was presented some documents. I wasn't

23 aware of it before.

24 MR. KAY: Can we see the document that has been cited by the

25 Prosecutor?

Page 23347

1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Carrier, can you assist Mr. Kay?

2 MR. CARRIER: Yes, I'm referring to D1058.

3 Q. And, Mr. Sruk, you mention one of the things when you reviewed

4 that request was that you said that General Cermak didn't have the

5 authority to issue orders to two people, specifically Mr. Radovic or

6 Ms. Soldic.

7 MR. CARRIER: Mr. Registrar, could we please have document number

8 65 ter 55 -- sorry, if we could have Exhibit D610 on the screen.

9 Q. And, Mr. Sruk, what you're going to see on the screen in front of

10 you is actually an order issued by General Cermak to both of those people

11 to whom you said he doesn't have the authority to do that. And that's in

12 relation to sanitation of the terrain in Knin, and it's copying Dr. Brkic

13 at the bottom.

14 Does that change your mind at all about General Cermak's

15 authority to issue orders to those people?

16 A. I'm not changing my mind. He could not issue such orders. Now,

17 there is no signature or initials, so I can only assume that he ordered

18 this to Mr. Radovic and Madam Soldic in the same way in which he issued

19 an order to me. But he couldn't do it because the command line was

20 totally different. So obviously this was ... this was supplanted to him.

21 Q. But is it --

22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Sruk, can I ask you, you say there is no

23 signature. Could you explain that answer, in view of what I see on the

24 screen? Apart from whose signature it is, but I see something which

25 appears to me to be a signature.

Page 23348

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, please let me explain.

2 You probably did not understand what I was saying.

3 On the left-hand side, it was customary for those of who wrote

4 proposals of orders as associates of our commanders on the left-hand side

5 to put our initials. First of all, you had initials of person that

6 authored the proposal/the person who actually wrote/typed the proposal.

7 For example, if I was drafting this particular document, on the

8 left-hand side just above this where it says, To, to whom it should be

9 delivered, it would be written BS/BS. Everybody knew that this meant

10 that I authored the document. The person who signed the document and the

11 person who would receive the document knew it. So, until the commander

12 signed it, it was just a proposal. And this would mean that I authored

13 and that I actually typed it. If I didn't type it in person, then the

14 initials of another person would be next to mine.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Sruk, I have no problem in hearing your

16 testimony about what you would expect on a -- on an order, as far as who

17 would have drafted that and whether you would find initials.

18 You said there's no signature. The only question I asked you is

19 what I look at this document, I see a signature. So apart from -- I

20 didn't ask you any question about the absence of initials. I just asked

21 you about what you said about the signature.

22 Anything to add, in relation to the signature?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, there may have been a

24 misunderstanding. I said that there were no initials. I did not refer

25 to the signature that you can see on the screen.

Page 23349

1 So it was a misunderstanding. When I was saying I was actually

2 indicating that there should have been initials, and on top of that, the

3 signature.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that's clear. Did you say -- because I'm a bit

5 confused about your last answer. You said:

6 "I said that there were no initials. I did not refer to the

7 signature that can you see on the screen."

8 So you didn't use the word "signature" apart from the word

9 "initial"?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's correct.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Which means that we would have to ask our

12 transcribers or our interpreters why they make a mistake, or is it

13 possible that you use the word "signature." We can consult the original

14 words you used.

15 Are you certain that you did not use the word "signature" in your

16 answer?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did use it, but I did not refer

18 to this signature, to another signature that I explained later on, and

19 that was my mistake.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Would you be very careful in even suggesting

21 that our interpreters and our transcribers are not properly doing their

22 job. I would have expected your answer to be, I used the word

23 "signature" but in a different context, and then you could have explained

24 that. Whereas you suggested that you did not use that word. But now I

25 hear that you did use that word, so that, therefore, our transcribers and

Page 23350

1 interpreters are doing their job properly.

2 Is the message clear, Mr. Sruk?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is, Your Honour.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Carrier.

5 MR. CARRIER: Thank you, Mr. President.

6 Q. Just where we left off, Mr. Sruk, you said that, as far as you

7 know, General Cermak didn't have the authority to issue these orders.

8 But you have already told us that you don't really know what

9 General Cermak's authority was, what his relationship was to specific

10 people, for instance, Dr. Brkic, what his relationship was with the civil

11 protection.

12 So can you explain what your actual factual basis is for -- for

13 testifying that General Cermak couldn't issue these types of orders to

14 these people?

15 A. As far as I knew by then, the commanders of garrisons were not in

16 the same command line with unit commanders.

17 If I have a commander, and Mr. Radovic has it, and if they have a

18 superior assistant for logistics at the ministry, Madam Soldic, it

19 follows for me, and particularly now when I saw all of this, that

20 General Cermak, as a commander of the garrison, could not issue orders to

21 these people without having consulted other instances.

22 Q. Sorry, Mr. Sruk, I thought we covered this off, but let's go

23 through it quickly.

24 Do you -- or did you, during August 1995, ever learn the details

25 of who it was that actually had appointed General Cermak to his position

Page 23351

1 in Knin?

2 A. No. I didn't know that. It -- I was not interested in that

3 either, because my tasks were entirely different. I was not a politician

4 but a soldier.

5 Q. Okay. Stop. I'm cutting you off, sir. I'm cutting you off

6 because the question wasn't about what you were interested in; it's about

7 what you know.

8 So it fair to say that you did not know the precise parameters of

9 the authority or the tasks that had been assigned to General Cermak in

10 Knin in August 1995?

11 A. No.

12 Q. So given that answer, how can you accurately or honestly give any

13 answers about what kinds of orders or to whom General Cermak could issue

14 orders during August 1995?

15 A. It is difficult to describe briefly the rules of the game, so to

16 say, of what the Croatian Army was doing. If I had an order which --

17 Q. Mr. Sruk --

18 A. Please allow me to explain.

19 Q. Mr. Sruk --

20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Carrier, it is fair to the witness that can he

21 briefly explain what he means.

22 Could you briefly explain what is the basis on which you can give

23 your opinion or assessment of the competence of Mr. Cermak issuing

24 orders, like the ones we've looked at.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

Page 23352

1 As I started to say, until then, I had a valid order, and my

2 commander was the commander of the Operations Group North, and I had

3 clear instructions as to what to do. All of a sudden, without my

4 knowledge, there comes somebody else who issues an order of an entirely

5 different nature, of an entirely different type, and a different field of

6 activity. From this comes my statement when I said that even if I knew

7 about this order on the 6th of August, 1995, I could not have implemented

8 it, because my old orders were still valid. Such were the rules of the

9 game.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Although it's not an answer to what Mr. Carrier

11 asked you, I understand your position to be that, since you had no reason

12 to believe that Mr. Cermak would have the authority to issue orders which

13 were contradicting the orders you earlier received, that -- if would you

14 have been aware of this order, you may not have implemented it.

15 Is that correctly understood?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is correct.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Then let's move on, Mr. Carrier.

18 MR. CARRIER:

19 Q. Mr. Sruk, with respect to the sanitation operation happening in

20 and around Knin during August 1995 and following, is it not the case that

21 the Knin garrison was responsible for organising, among other things, the

22 logistics for that operation?

23 A. Until August the 11th, when the order was issued by

24 General Gotovina, then it became clear who is supposed to provide

25 logistical support to whom and for what. Until then, all that I knew was

Page 23353

1 that civilian protection of the Ministry of the Interior was in charge

2 and was carrying out sanitation tasks. Who supported them, I really

3 don't know. Where they got their shovels, I don't know. I know they had

4 them.

5 Q. Well, Mr. Sruk, I'm going to suggest to you that, in fact, the

6 Knin garrison was involved in not only coordinating logistics but also

7 issuing instructions and other types of information regarding the

8 sanitation operation occurring in and around Knin during August and

9 September 1995.

10 A. Thank you for this information.

11 Q. You don't dispute that; you just don't know?

12 A. I'm not sure where the garrison, during this first four or five

13 days, could be able to find logistic support and provide logistic support

14 to anybody given the situation in Knin at the time. So I'm talking about

15 the first four or five days. I'm talking about what I know but I'm not

16 certain.

17 So it is my assumption, based on what I know and what I saw. I'm

18 not sure where could I find any support or equipment.

19 Q. Well, Mr. Sruk, they found it, I think, in your home base, the

20 Sibenik Logistics Base. Were you aware of that?

21 A. Yes. Later on, following General Gotovina's order of August the

22 11th. But for the first three or four days, I doubt it. I know that the

23 civilian protection brought their own uniforms, equipment, everything

24 they needed, including trucks. And everything else they brought

25 themselves.

Page 23354

1 Q. So you don't dispute that the Knin garrison was certainly

2 involved in assisting with the sanitation process --

3 MR. KAY: Your Honour, the witness has answered this question in

4 many different forms. It's not a question to say -- the way it is put,

5 "So you don't dispute that," that's not the way of questioning him.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Carrier, I think that the position of the

7 witness in relation to the matter you raise in your last question is

8 clear. If there is any specific point you would like to further address,

9 you can do so. But we're now, again, back in the rather general -- in a

10 rather general assessment of the situation, which has proven to -- to

11 create more confusion than clarity.

12 Please proceed.

13 MR. CARRIER: Thank you, Mr. President. I was about to get into

14 some specifics.

15 Q. Mr. Sruk, were you aware of any kind of communication happening

16 between civil defence or civil protection units making certain complaints

17 and then the Knin garrison, in turn, acting on that and rectifying those

18 complaints. Are you aware of that?

19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Carrier, would it help to put a time-frame to

20 your question, that is, up to the 11th of August, because that might play

21 a role.

22 MR. CARRIER:

23 Q. During any time in August or September 1995. And I can give a

24 couple of examples, one of which Dr. Brkic requesting 350 crosses for the

25 burial of -- referred to as Chetniks. Putting together eight boilers so

Page 23355

1 that the civil protection staff can shower in Knin, which seems to be in

2 response to a complaint made by the chief of civilian protection,

3 Mr. Cimiran. I'm just wondering whether you're aware of anything of that

4 sort.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Is it possible to add, for the Chamber's

6 information, dates to it.

7 MR. CARRIER: It's, for reference purposes --

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, you can --

9 MR. CARRIER: It's in D1015, which is the 29 September 1995

10 report on logistics from Mr. Jonjic. The dates are not specific. It

11 just gives a general list of things they were doing, so it is not

12 specified by date, but, rather, a range of dates.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you.

14 MR. CARRIER:

15 Q. Mr. Sruk, do you think any about the 350 crosses or the -- making

16 shower facilities or anything like that?

17 A. Mr. Prosecutor, I was a major charged with orders issued by my

18 superiors for very specific tasks. I have no idea about shower

19 facilities or crosses that were requested by anybody. I mentioned

20 previously I saw some ten crosses in the cemetery. They were placed

21 appropriately where the graves were. There was no way I could have known

22 about this because I still claim that I never belonged to any of the

23 logistic teams.

24 JUDGE ORIE: If you don't know, unless there are any further

25 questions on your knowledge, just tell us that you don't know, and then

Page 23356

1 whether you should have known is a totally different matter. There's no

2 need to explain why you do not know what you say you do not know.

3 Please proceed, Mr. Carrier.

4 MR. CARRIER: Thank you, Mr. President.

5 Q. Mr. Sruk, turning to Dr. Gotovac. You remember that person you

6 discussed today. You mentioned that he is from the Ministry of Defence

7 Health Administration.

8 Now, you're also aware that Dr. Brkic was actually the chief of

9 that health administration, right?

10 A. That is correct.

11 Q. And what you describe in relation to Dr. Gotovac is that there

12 was an official role being fulfilled by Dr. Gotovac, in terms of --

13 MR. CARRIER: I just want to find the reference. It's just at

14 the end of page 23 of today's testimony, onto page 24.

15 Q. That that person was there to oversee the sanitation process

16 during August 1995.

17 Now, my question is: If this person, Dr. Gotovac, who was

18 subordinated to Dr. Brkic, is doing that, I'm going to suggest to you

19 that in fact that's also what Dr. Brkic was there doing, was to oversee

20 the sanitation process and make suggestions for how to improve it,

21 et cetera, as it went along.

22 A. The part in which I mentioned Dr. Gotovac, I said that he was in

23 charge of monitoring.

24 Let me explain. He visited the entire field and he reported on

25 what he saw. So what was being done, in which way, and what should have

Page 23357

1 been done. He did not participate directly in the sanitation activities.

2 Q. And what I'm suggesting is that his job and Dr. Brkic's job was

3 to actually oversee that process. Is that fair? And if -- to refresh

4 your memory, we could look at a document you looked at in your statement,

5 which is D1059, which is a report signed by both Dr. Brkic and

6 Dr. Gotovac, dated the 12th of August, 1995, sent to General Cermak.

7 And if it helps you out at all, there is also another document

8 that's in evidence which is a report dated the 20th of August, 1995,

9 which is over a week after you say Dr. Brkic was removed, which is a

10 report sent to Dr. Brkic from Dr. Gotovac, and that's P2572, which

11 indicates that their activity after Operation Storm was a regular duty of

12 the health administration; namely, to supervise the professional work

13 related to human sanitation. It also mentions that they acted pursuant

14 to an order of the chief of the Main Staff. Dr. Gotovac, as you state,

15 recounts a reconnaissance of the human sanitation operation.

16 It also mentions that where discrepancies were detected from the

17 established practice, verbal instructions were issued to both the police

18 and the civil protection members, in order to eliminate such failures,

19 and those people in turn gave assurances that such failures would be

20 eliminated. And this is also consistent with how Dr. Brkic starts off

21 all of his reports to all those high-placed Croatian authorities saying,

22 That this is the regular task of his administration.

23 So my question to you: Isn't it, on the basis of these

24 documents, do you have any information about whether or not Dr. Brkic's

25 role was to oversee the sanitation process, just like you say Dr. Gotovac

Page 23358

1 was doing?

2 A. Could I kindly see the document that you have just referred to?

3 Q. Yes. You can see it. It's --

4 MR. CARRIER: Mr. Registrar, if could you call up Exhibit P2572

5 onto the screen.

6 Q. And, Dr. Sruk, just so -- for your reference, the other document

7 I had referred to -- I believe you said you have documents with you, but

8 that's the one that's countersigned by both Dr. Brkic and Dr. Gotovac,

9 and that's dated the 12th of August.

10 A. Could I kindly see the end of this document?

11 Yes, could I see the very end of the document?

12 Q. And it may assist, the -- I believe the actual document has an

13 attachment. But there's three pages, I think, and then there's a

14 signature at the end. I'm not --

15 JUDGE ORIE: Could we go through the document, starting on the

16 third page, to see whether we ...

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Could I see the beginning of this

18 document that I just have on the screen now?

19 Yes, here you have the results of the work of the control

20 inspection, or supervision. This is what is clearly stated here.

21 I apologise. Could I see if this document was listed?

22 JUDGE ORIE: If you would please look at the documents as

23 requested but listed -- it's unclear to me.

24 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters would kindly ask the witness

25 to repeat his request. But this is what was stated.

Page 23359

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could you please repeat what you said last.

2 You said:

3 "I apologise. Could I see if this document was ..."

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I would like to see the entire

5 document, because I can only see the first page here.

6 JUDGE ORIE: I suggest the following, Mr. Carrier. Let's have a

7 break. Let's make hard copies of the documents you want to show to the

8 witness. Is that --

9 MR. CARRIER: Actually he asked to see it. I did the courtesy of

10 showing it to him, but it was just a question about, if that's what's in

11 the document, then how does he explain Dr. Brkic's role. So, that's the

12 only information I was looking for.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Fine. But apparently the witness would prefer to

14 answer the questions once he has seen the document in its entirety, and

15 that's -- if it's a three-page document, then I think it should not

16 create a major problem.

17 MR. MISETIC: Mr. President --

18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Misetic.

19 MR. MISETIC: -- on behalf of my client, and I'm certain the

20 others as well, they haven't been able to follow the documents because

21 they're being summarised quickly. And then now they would also like to

22 see the documents so ...

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Let's then take our time and perhaps make one

24 or two copies as well for the accused of the original so that we know

25 what we are talking about. I would rather not hear any evidence where

Page 23360

1 the witness is hesitant to say anything unless he has seen this

2 three-page document in its entirety.

3 If could you take care of that, Mr. Carrier. Then you know of

4 our time constraints. Could you tell us how much time you would still

5 need after the break?

6 MR. CARRIER: As you can tell, I'm trying to go quickly. But I

7 should be done in 20 minutes, 25 minutes.

8 JUDGE ORIE: 20, 25 minutes.

9 Could I get an estimate on time needed for re-examination,

10 Mr. Kay.

11 MR. KAY: There's none at the moment, other than a very short

12 matter within five minutes. It's not substantial.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Misetic.

14 MR. MISETIC: No questions, Mr. President.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Nothing arises until this moment.

16 We will have a break.

17 Mr. Carrier, you are invited to provide hard copies. And we will

18 resume at five minutes to 1.00, sharp.

19 --- Recess taken at 12.33 p.m.

20 --- On resuming at 12.55 p.m.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Carrier.

22 MR. CARRIER: Thank you, Mr. President. And in the interests of

23 time, I would like to, at the end of this session, bar table document

24 65 ter 7452, which is a 12th of August, 1995, report from Brkic to

25 Cimiran. It's similar to all the other ones, but if my friends have the

Page 23361

1 chance to look at it, perhaps we can address it at the end.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could I just ask you, I did write down for

3 myself that P2652, which is the -- I think, Brkic says that it corrects

4 the report on what was done on the 11th. Is the original report

5 available as well, apart from the correction being there, whether that

6 gives any additional information?

7 MR. CARRIER: I'm not aware of one, but ...

8 JUDGE ORIE: But you noticed that it says it is the correction on

9 the report and -- of the 11th and a report on what was done on the 12th.

10 That's in the title at the top.

11 MR. CARRIER: I believe we can find them. It may just be in

12 relation to body lists.

13 JUDGE ORIE: It could be. But it could describe what happened.

14 Whereas here we may find, for example, further details on re-numbering

15 the -- the bodies identified.

16 If could you find that, it might assist.

17 Please proceed.

18 MR. CARRIER: Thank you very much.

19 Q. Mr. Sruk, we left off -- you had a chance to look at the

20 document; right?

21 Now my question is very simply, given this report to Dr. Brkic

22 from Dr. Gotovac, do you actually know whether or not Dr. Brkic was also

23 involved in supervisory reconnaissance of a human sanitation operation

24 conducted after Storm by members of civilian protection?

25 A. It does not follow from this document. However, I know that

Page 23362

1 Dr. Gotovac visited various places and oversaw the process, and at the

2 end of that overseeing procedure, he drafted a report. He was on his own

3 at the time. And I'm referring to the professional overseeing of the

4 work of the members of the ministry. And this was standard procedure.

5 And I'm glad that you showed me the document. This confirms that

6 the agreement on the competence of the civilian protection, complete with

7 all standards of work, was honoured, because Dr. Gotovac states that

8 there was an agreement for the civilian protection --

9 Q. Mr. Sruk, I'm going to cut you off. Mr. Sruk, I apologise. I'm

10 under time limitations and my question was very simple. It was about

11 whether or not you actually know whether or not Dr. Brkic, who's being

12 reported to by Dr. Gotovac in this report, was also involved in that

13 supervisory reconnaissance.

14 A. The -- of the work that was carried out in Knin, he was not. For

15 the rest, I don't know.

16 Q. And on what exactly do you base that?

17 A. I was in Knin at the time when the supervision took place. I

18 spoke to Dr. Gotovac who phoned me. So I know, I am aware of the time

19 when he was involved in this work.

20 Q. That's just Dr. Gotovac, though, right? You're talking about

21 you're aware of when Dr. Gotovac was involved.

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. All right.

24 A. Yes. What follows from the document, what he did. This

25 particular supervision exercise. It was earlier. The report is of the

Page 23363

1 28th, and Dr. Gotovac was in Knin on his own, and he told me about the

2 problems that existed in Knin and around Knin and so on.

3 MR. CARRIER: Mr. Registrar, could we please have D598 on the

4 screen, please.

5 Q. Mr. Sruk, what's coming up on the screen is General Cervenko's

6 order of the 5th of August, 1995, calling for sanitation by mixed

7 sanitation detachments of the territory where Storm was conducted.

8 Now, you have had a chance to look at this document already. But

9 my question is, Mr. Sruk, can you point specifically - and before do you

10 that, I'm going suggest that you won't find them - to the words "area of

11 combat activities," or "front line," or "battlefield," where those are

12 used in this order to indicate that the activities of the mixed

13 sanitation detachments that are being set up under this order are limited

14 to operating in those types of areas?

15 MR. MISETIC: Mr. President, can we get a cite, and it may very

16 well be true, but where the witness said that the mixed sanitation

17 detachments only operated on the battlefield.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Carrier.

19 MR. CARRIER: Area of combat activities I think you can find in

20 paragraph 5, line 29, page 3 of the English. It says "during combat

21 activities." Paragraph 6, line 6, page 4 in the English.

22 MR. MISETIC: I'm aware of that, but that's different than

23 what -- the way the question is posed. The Prosecutor is suggesting that

24 the witness said that mixed combat groups were only operating at -- in

25 the combat, and that's different than what is said in paragraph 5.

Page 23364

1 MR. CARRIER: I was actually not finished.

2 JUDGE ORIE: But Mr. Carrier is now aware that Mr. Misetic thinks

3 that the -- focussing on those portions of the testimony in which

4 reference is made to limited areas that that's important to include that

5 in the question.

6 MR. MISETIC: Yes. And for the record, the question was finished

7 and he was asked to point in this to order to --

8 JUDGE ORIE: Let's -- let's proceed.

9 MR. CARRIER: Sorry. I meant that I wasn't finished citing the

10 other instances. But if you are not worried about that, I'll just ask

11 him.

12 Q. Mr. Sruk, is it not your position that the mixed sanitation

13 detachments operated in -- on the battlefield, or areas of combat

14 activities, or the front line, and that's where they were supposed to be

15 operating?

16 A. Mr. Prosecutor, I have never stated that, nor could I have.

17 Pursuant to this order and General Gotovina's order which had to do with

18 his AOR of the Military Districts, the mixed detachments were set up to

19 be used everywhere except for the combat zones, because the sanitation in

20 the combat areas was carried out by the Croatian Army. And that's quite

21 clear. The mixed detachments were set up in addition to the military

22 units, and they were civilian, in order to cope with the vast territory.

23 And I -- I wouldn't dream of stating what you've just -- the word that

24 you have just put into my mouth.

25 Q. Thank you. So they operated everywhere; that's fine.

Page 23365

1 A. No, no. I repeat, no, they did not. It was the Croatian Army

2 that did the job in the battlefield, according to the orders. The mixed

3 detachments established pursuant to this order of the 5th of August by

4 the chief of the Main Staff were active throughout the territory, save

5 for the combat zones. And that's quite clear. There is a clear

6 distinction. Civilians have no place being at the front line.

7 Q. Okay. Thank you.

8 Mr. Sruk, when you gave your statement, you reviewed a number of

9 documents. And then you confirmed that the mixed sanitation teams

10 sanitised the terrain in the Split Military District during August 1995.

11 And you said that the chain of command and reporting was fully respected

12 in accordance with General Cervenko's order - the one we're looking at

13 here - and also General Gotovina's order dated the 11th of August, 1995,

14 which is P4 -- sorry, P496.

15 MR. CARRIER: And if we could actually just have P496 on the

16 screen quickly. And if you could turn to page 2 in the English and

17 page 2 in the B/C/S.

18 Q. Mr. Sruk, you were shown this document during the

19 cross-examination by Mr. Misetic, and you went through it and you

20 identified who was responsible -- responsible for providing different

21 aspects of these mixed sanitation groups.

22 In terms of 4.1, the commander, is it fair to say that the

23 commander of these groups is an HV member?

24 A. According to what is stated here, yes. And he was, indeed.

25 Q. Thank you. And, Mr. Sruk, with respect to the report sent by

Page 23366

1 Dr. Brkic, which you reviewed, in your statement you said that Dr. Brkic

2 did everything aforesaid in contrast to the order of the Chief of the

3 Main Staff, General Cervenko, of August 5, 1995, in which the tasks for

4 carrying out sanitation and coordination of HV with the police

5 administration civil protection and health crisis staff of the counties

6 in the liberated areas were clearly stated.

7 MR. CARRIER: Now, Mr. Registrar, if we could go back to

8 Exhibit D598 which, just for reference --

9 Q. Mr. Sruk, this is General Cervenko's order again.

10 MR. CARRIER: And if we could turn to page 4 in the English and

11 page 2 in the B/C/S.

12 Q. Looking at item number 7, Mr. Sruk, if you have a chance to look

13 that over, is it fair to say that item number 7 of General Cervenko's

14 order very generally sets out some of the individuals and bodies that are

15 responsible for coordination and supervision of the participants in the

16 sanitation campaign conducted in August 1995?

17 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please answer the question. If you have

18 not understood it, we will invite Mr. Carrier to repeat it.

19 Mr. Carrier characterised what he thinks is found in paragraph 7,

20 and he is seeking whether you agree or disagree with that.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My apologies, I didn't understand

22 just now what it was about.

23 This is the normal channel of communication and reporting, where

24 the chief of the Main Staff charges the operational logistics, that's to

25 say, the chiefs of the medical corps, Dr. Marijan Zlatar -- that's to

Page 23367

1 say, the chief of the medical corps, Dr. Marijan Zlatar, and the chief of

2 the veterinarian profession, Perajica, to report to him on the sanitation

3 carried out throughout the territory affected by Operation Storm. That's

4 quite clear and quite proper. And only goes to show that all the others

5 were outside of this order which came into force on the 5th of August.

6 Do I misunderstand you?

7 JUDGE ORIE: I think you misunderstood the question. What

8 Mr. Carrier would like to know is whether you agree or do not agree with,

9 as he put it to you, that paragraph 7 of General Cervenko's order very

10 generally sets out some of the individuals and bodies that are

11 responsible for coordination and supervision of the participants in the

12 sanitation campaign conducted in August 1995.

13 Is that a fair statement, that that's to be found in paragraph 7?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Honourable Judge, this is an order

15 by the then-chief of the Main Staff. This is a usual procedure of

16 issuing commands, where he charges the -- his immediate subordinates with

17 coordinating and ensuring the implementation of the order. I cannot

18 comment on the order of the chief of the Main Staff, but I can only tell

19 you that it is fully within the spirit of the orders issued at the time,

20 where who is responsible for what is quite clearly defined.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Carrier, please proceed.

22 MR. CARRIER: Thank you.

23 Q. And, Mr. Sruk, just to direct your attention more specifically to

24 the last paragraph under item number 7, which states that:

25 "All unclear issues shall be resolved in coordination with the

Page 23368

1 Ministry of Defence of the Republic of Croatia Health Administration."

2 Now, Mr. Sruk, given that Dr. Brkic was the head or the chief of

3 the Health Administration, I'm going to suggest to you that you he was

4 responsible under this order to coordinate the resolution of all unclear

5 issues, in respect of the sanitation campaign, which means that any of

6 his orders, input, direction, et cetera, related to accomplishing that in

7 a sanitation campaign would have to be given due weight and attention,

8 which -- perhaps you could comment on.

9 Is that not fair? Is your characterisation of Dr. Brkic's

10 role inconsistent with that, or you just don't know what he was doing?

11 A. Mr. Prosecutor, I disagree with your assertion. It is quite

12 clear -- I'm trying to account for the system that was in place at the

13 time.

14 All the things that were unclear and that stemmed from

15 General Cervenko's order were to be clarified with the competent

16 authorities, and, at the time, it was the ministry. This was standard

17 procedure. But it only had to do with those elements that were unclear.

18 On the 5th of August, there were no such things that were unclear

19 yet. When they emerged, they were being dealt with.

20 Q. Mr. Sruk, let me ask you, what specifically are you basing your

21 testimony on, that -- that -- on the 5th there was nothing really that

22 was unclear? What information were you getting, who was reporting to

23 you, how would you actually know that? And how would you know whether or

24 not the Health Administration would be involved in any of that?

25 A. Quite simply on the 5th of August, none of the members of the

Page 23369

1 medical corps were present in Knin. The only person who arrived was my

2 chief of -- within the Military District who flew in by helicopter and

3 then went away again. Nobody came after him, until the early morning

4 hours, when I, together with my teams -- well, it wasn't the -- at the

5 crack of dawn; it was at 7.00 or 8.00 in the morning - that I arrived.

6 And it is quite certain that no one was aware of any problems on the 5th.

7 What --

8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Sruk --

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- is set out here is the normal

10 course that the issuing of an order would entail.

11 JUDGE ORIE: May I understand your answer to be that you were not

12 aware of any unclear issues on that date?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Please -- could you please move on, Mr. Carrier.

15 MR. CARRIER: Thank you, Mr. President.

16 Q. Mr. Sruk, on the basis of your review of Dr. Brkic's reports

17 during your statement, you concluded that Dr. Brkic was not acquainted

18 with the work of the mixed teams for sanitation on the liberated areas,

19 said he wasn't familiar with the fact that these teams reported on their

20 work to the OPL at the Main Staff of the Croatian Army in Zagreb on a

21 daily basis.

22 Now, Mr. Sruk, other than the reports that you looked at from

23 Dr. Brkic, that you looked at for the first time in September 2009, what

24 is your factual basis for saying that Dr. Brkic was unacquainted with the

25 work of the sanitation teams or where it was that they reported to? Can

Page 23370

1 you explain that?

2 A. Having received General Gotovina's order, and once the mixed

3 teams were set up -- or, rather, let me correct myself, not teams but

4 detachments. The commander of the detachments reported along his chain

5 of command up to the chief of the medical profession of the

6 Split Military District. They, in turn, reported to the operations and

7 planning of the logistics within the Main Staff in Zagreb, and it was the

8 individuals listed in item 7 who received the information. And that was

9 the proper implementation of the order issued by the chief of the

10 Main Staff, by the commander of the Split Military District, and the

11 coordinator for sanitation.

12 This was the only acceptable situation in military terms. We

13 were all informed of it and all of us were privy to the elements that

14 fell within our jurisdiction. Unfortunately, we were not aware of some

15 other information.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Carrier, I'm looking at the clock. Are you

17 about to finish?

18 MR. CARRIER: This is the last part. This is the last part about

19 this particular issue. I just have a couple more questions on that so --

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but you also know that we have to finish at

21 1.30. That's at least what we intend to do. So could you please put

22 very focussed questions and not take more than three or four minutes.

23 Please proceed.

24 MR. CARRIER: Thank you.

25 Q. Mr. Sruk, do you specifically know what information was being

Page 23371

1 sent to Dr. Brkic about what was happening with regard to the sanitation

2 process in Knin in August 1995? Specifically.

3 A. I only know this from Mr. Gotovac, and anything else, when it

4 comes to the mixed detachments, he did not receive any reports from them.

5 Q. Okay. And very quickly, if we could look at item number 8 of

6 General Cervenko' order, which is on the last -- or, sorry page 5 in

7 English, which discusses the actual daily reporting required.

8 And very specifically, Mr. Sruk, it indicates here that the

9 reports are to be sent to the OPL, but moreover, that the OPL sector of

10 the Croatian Army Main Staff is also supposed to forward reports of

11 appropriate scope to the Ministry of Health -- or sorry, the Ministry of

12 Defence Health Administration via regular channels.

13 Can you explain that, because that seems to suggest that those

14 reports -- or portions of the reports or appropriate scope are going to

15 the Health Administration. Do you know anything specifically about what

16 was contained in those reports to the Health Administration, of which

17 Dr. Brkic was the chief?

18 A. Just as I said before, the chain of events was such that us, as

19 military, upon the orders of General Cervenko, were reporting to the OPLs

20 of the Main Staff. Furthermore, General Gotovina did not have the

21 authority to order OPL whom to forward these reports to. This was done

22 by the Main Staff, and this is the usual way of reporting and the correct

23 way of reporting.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Sruk, Mr. Carrier put you to the paragraph 8 of

25 this order by Mr. Cervenko, in which he instructs the OPL to forward