Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 1304

 1                           Thursday, 15 November 2012

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.00 a.m.

 5             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Good morning to everyone in and around the

 6     courtroom.

 7             Mr. Registrar, could you call the case, please.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  This is the case

 9     IT-04-75-T, the Prosecutor versus Goran Hadzic.  Thank you.

10             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

11             May we have the appearances, please, starting with the

12     Prosecution.

13             MR. STRINGER:  Good morning, Mr. President, Your Honours.

14     Douglas Stringer with Matthew Olmsted, Matthew Gillett, intern,

15     Amanda Witheiler, and Case Manager Thomas Laugel for the Prosecution.

16             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

17             For the Defence please, Mr. Gosnell.

18             MR. GOSNELL:  Mr. President, Your Honours, good morning.  It's

19     Christopher Gosnell for Mr. Hadzic with Negosava Smiljanic, Case Manager.

20     Thank you.

21             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you very much.  Can we go into closed

22     session to bring the witness in.

23                           [Closed session]

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 7                           [Open session]

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  We're back in open session, Your Honours.  Thank

 9     you.

10             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

11             Mr. Gosnell.

12             MR. GOSNELL:  Thank you, Mr. President.

13                           WITNESS:  GH-015 [Resumed]

14                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

15                           Cross-examination by Mr. Gosnell:

16        Q.   Good morning, Mr. Witness.

17        A.   Good morning.

18        Q.   My name is Christopher Gosnell and I represent Mr. Hadzic, and

19     I'm going to be asking you a few questions this morning.  If there's

20     anything that I ask that isn't clear, please feel free to ask for a

21     clarification and further detail and I will be happy to do that.  Do you

22     understand?

23        A.   I do.

24             MR. GOSNELL:  Mr. President, we'll have to go in private session,

25     I'm afraid.

 


Page 1306

 1             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Private session, please.

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 7                           [Open session]

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.  Thank you.

 9             MR. GOSNELL:

10        Q.   Now, sir, do you remember that you gave a statement to the Office

11     of the Prosecutor -- or to an investigator of the Office of the

12     Prosecutor in May 1999?

13        A.   I do.

14        Q.   And you told the truth in that statement; isn't that right?

15        A.   What else?  I said what I knew.  Now whether someone sees that as

16     the truth or not, in any case, I said what I knew, and, for me, that's

17     the truth.

18        Q.   And you signed that statement; is that correct?

19        A.   I did.

20        Q.   Now, do you recognise the document in front of you as a

21     translation of that statement that you gave in 1999 and that you signed?

22        A.   As far as I can see, this is my statement.  Perhaps if I went

23     through it all, I would come across a mistake or two, but for that, I

24     would need time to read it and that would be impossible right now.  In

25     any case this is my statement.


Page 1310

 1        Q.   That's perfectly understandable.  Perhaps I could just ask:  Have

 2     you looked at this document over the last few days in preparation for

 3     your testimony here?

 4        A.   I did.  I have.

 5        Q.   Thank you.

 6             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Hadzic, I saw you signal that it's okay now.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, it is.  Thank you.

 8             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

 9             MR. GOSNELL:  We'll have to go back into private session,

10     Mr. President.

11             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Private session, please.

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 2                           [Open session]

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.  Thank you.

 4             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

 5             MR. GOSNELL:

 6        Q.   Sir, we're in open session so just bear that in mind in any

 7     answers you give.  And if we need to go into private session, we can do

 8     that.

 9             Now, you arrive in Bobota and you discover that there is

10     something there called -- or that there was a Village Defence HQ.  Can

11     you explain for us what this Village Defence HQ was.

12        A.   As you said yourself, their role was to defend the village, if

13     necessary, from an attack.  The people were still unarmed.  They only had

14     hunting rifles, and only a few had any military weapons.  They manned

15     check-points but only occasionally.

16        Q.   And at these check-points, who were they attempting to keep out

17     of the village, if anyone?

18        A.   They were not trying to keep anyone out.  They were afraid the

19     situation was such that if some stronger, larger forces were to come to

20     Bobota, they wanted to stop them.  People felt that something was in the

21     air, that something was about to happen.  They did that mostly out of

22     fear.

23        Q.   And how far is Celija from Bobota?

24        A.   4, 5, kilometres, not more.

25        Q.   And is it correct that you had information from someone in Celija


Page 1316

 1     that approximately six months prior to the time that weapons started to

 2     arrive on the Serb side, that weapons started to arrive in Celija and in

 3     other Croat villages; is that correct?

 4        A.   That's correct.  Now I'm taken aback a little because I had

 5     forgotten about this surname, and I had not seen it here in proofing.

 6     But I'll try to recall this.

 7             It was sometime in August/September 1990.  At the time, I had

 8     been transferred to that area to work and we were securing the village of

 9     Celija when this man by the surname of Kralj approached us.  He was a

10     resident of Celija.  We were carrying rifles.  It was very hot.  I laid

11     down my rifle by the car, and he said, I have the same one at home.  He

12     was 100 percent sure that I was a Croat, and I said nothing to that.  I

13     asked, When did you get that rifle of yours?  And he said, Back in

14     March or April this year.

15             MR. GOSNELL:  Does the Prosecution think anything has been said

16     that it causes a witness protection problem?

17             MR. OLMSTED:  It's hard to say.  I don't know, this person you

18     mentioned, whether that person would know about this witness.  But other

19     than that, I don't see any problem.

20             MR. GOSNELL:  Thank you.

21        Q.   Now, at the time that you arrived and came across the village

22     headquarters of Bobota, the Village Defence headquarters, did you know

23     whether or not they were part of some kind of broader structure, or did

24     you have the impression that this was a local institution that had sprung

25     up autonomously?

 


Page 1317

 1        A.   Not at that time.  I don't think they were.  Perhaps they became

 2     that later.  At the time, as I stated before, I thought people had done

 3     that spontaneously out of fear of something they were trying to prevent.

 4             MR. GOSNELL:  We'll need to go back into private session,

 5     Mr. President.

 6             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Private session, please.

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Page 1368

 1                           [Open session]

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.  Thank you.

 3             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

 4             Is that okay with you, Mr. Gosnell, open session?

 5             MR. GOSNELL:  The problem, Your Honour, is there's at least one

 6     person out there who would be able to deduce the witness's identity,

 7     based on the answers.

 8             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Private session, please.

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 2                           [Open session]

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  We're back in open session, Your Honours.  Thank

 4     you.

 5             MR. GOSNELL:

 6        Q.   Now without referring to your position at this time, you did see

 7     Milan Milanovic at this meeting, aka Mrgud, didn't you?

 8        A.   I did.

 9        Q.   And you saw him there with your own eyes; correct?

10        A.   I think I did.  I did.

11        Q.   And do you know how large the room was where the meeting took

12     place with Mr. Stanisic and the others who were participating?

13        A.   I suppose I do.

14        Q.   Well, let me put it a different way.  Can you tell me how many

15     people were at that meeting?

16        A.   I don't know exactly.  There were many, really many.  Maybe up to

17     50 or 60.  Perhaps more.

18        Q.   So there's no way given the size of the meeting that

19     Mr. Milanovic wouldn't have seen Jovica Stanisic on this occasion;

20     correct?

21             MR. OLMSTED:  I think that calls for speculation, Your Honours.

22             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Let me ... let me try to understand the question.

23             MR. GOSNELL:  Mr. President, I withdraw the question.

24             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Okay.  Please proceed.

25             MR. GOSNELL:


Page 1383

 1        Q.   Now, you've described a meeting between Mr. Hadzic and someone

 2     named General Jokic, and I believe that that took place in, according to

 3     you, in Borovo Selo in late May or early June.  Is that correct timing?

 4        A.   Yes, it is.

 5        Q.   And do you know whether this General Jokic was, at the time,

 6     retired, or was he in active service?

 7        A.   That general never came in military uniform.  He was always in

 8     plain clothes, and that's how he introduced himself.

 9        Q.   When you say "that's how he introduced himself," do you mean did

10     he introduce himself as being retired?

11        A.   No.  He was General Jokic to us.  So an active-duty serviceman.

12     I don't see the reason for anyone in retirement to even be there.

13        Q.   Well, General Pekic was retired at that time, wasn't he?  And he

14     was visiting Borovo Selo; correct?

15        A.   I am really not aware of that information, that he was retired.

16     I only know I saw him there twice or thrice.

17        Q.   That's fair enough.  Now yesterday you spoke about these two

18     individuals, Ceso and Dafinic, and you testified that you weren't sure

19     whether or not they had engaged in any looting but that you identified

20     them as taking part in the attack on your office in Borovo Selo; is that

21     correct?

22        A.   Yes, it is.

23        Q.   And at this time, do you know whether they were part of any

24     formation.  Were they part of a TO, were they part of a milicija?

25        A.   I don't know where they belonged.  They behaved in that way --


Page 1384

 1     well, I have to follow it up in sequence.  With the late Soskocanin, who

 2     been the first commander of the Village Defence, they were his personal

 3     escorts.  When he drowned in the Danube, they became sort of independent.

 4     When the government was finally established in Dalj, they were made part

 5     of some kind of personal police or personal detail of the then-president,

 6     Mr. Goran Hadzic.  That's the extent of my knowledge about them.

 7        Q.   Do you know when that was that they became part of this personal

 8     detail, as you describe it?

 9        A.   I don't know exactly.  When I left the area, I came back only in

10     late March for the first time, and if you're interested, I could tell you

11     that I found out that there was some kind of special police attached to

12     the president.  There was a lot of footage of them accompanying him to

13     Knin and elsewhere.  But that's all I can say about those people.

14        Q.   So you don't know when, before March 1992, they might have joined

15     any such formation or unit?

16        A.   I really don't know.

17        Q.   And did you report their participation in this attack on your

18     office to anyone?

19        A.   Yes, naturally.  That very moment.

20             I'm not sure?  Are we in open session?

21             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Yes, we are.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Could we please move into a closed

23     session because I have names to mention.

24             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Private session, please.

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 7                           [Open session]

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.  Thank you.

 9             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Yes, Mr. Gosnell.

10             MR. GOSNELL:  Mr. President, as you know, lead counsel is

11     indisposed and remains to this day -- until -- at least until today in

12     hospital.  The expectation is that he is not going to be in a position

13     throughout next week to work.  The Prosecution recently advised

14     Your Honours and the Defence that the direct examination of GH-021 would

15     be shortened.  This, of course, advances also the cross-examination and

16     consequent on that the cross-examination of the next witness and the one

17     following that.  I'm -- I find myself in difficulties to be in a position

18     to properly consult and properly prepare for the cross-examination of all

19     witnesses next week, and that would be four.  That's what we have on the

20     list right now.

21             Now I have a suggestion, a proposal which I hope strikes an

22     appropriate balance between inconvenience to the Prosecution and to the

23     Chamber and yet the position that we find ourselves, and what I would

24     propose and suggest is that we sit one less day than normal next week and

25     that the day in question be chosen either by the Prosecution or by

 


Page 1392

 1     Your Honours as being either Monday, Tuesday, or Thursday, with that

 2     interval made available.

 3             And I suggest that level of flexibility because I do understand

 4     that the Prosecution has scheduling issues.  I would hope that -- well, I

 5     can assure the Chamber that I be in a position to proceed.  I'm in a

 6     position to proceed in either event, Your Honours, but I have to be

 7     honest about the limitations of the team under the circumstances.

 8             So that would be our request.

 9             JUDGE DELVOIE:  So that would mean, Mr. Gosnell, three hearings

10     next week instead of four?

11             MR. GOSNELL:  That would be the request, yes.

12             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Does the Defence [sic] has a position right now?

13             MR. STRINGER:  Mr. President, the Prosecution does have a --

14             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Prosecution, sorry.

15             MR. STRINGER:  -- position.  Just to clarify, on 21 it's true.

16     As we've indicated in a recent filing, in view of the special

17     circumstances we're cutting back on the direct.  If -- as we indicated in

18     our filing yesterday, if in fact circumstances change and the witness

19     expresses greater willingness to answer questions, then we may, depending

20     on how that goes, ask to go additional time.  I think we're at the moment

21     proposing the minimum that we're hoping will happen.  Having said that I

22     don't think it affects the broader question in terms of reducing the

23     court week by one day.  We would not oppose that.  However, our proposal

24     would be to drop Friday next week because dropping earlier days in the

25     weeks presents issues for witnesses who are very close to travelling.  If


Page 1393

 1     we drop Thursday, sit Friday, it -- it -- it it's a two-day gap that

 2     presents additional problems and also raises a possibility that a witness

 3     would carry over into the following week, which then raises problems as

 4     well.  And so our proposal would be to, if we're to not sit for an extra

 5     day next week, it would be to not sit on Friday.

 6             So I guess we would not sit on Wednesday and Friday would be the

 7     Prosecution preference, recognising it's different from the Defence

 8     preference.

 9             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Anything else?

10             MR. GOSNELL:  Just very briefly to say that, unfortunately,

11     Friday would be the least helpful of the days on which we wouldn't be

12     sitting.

13             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Okay.  We'll think that over and come back to you

14     tomorrow morning.  Or eventually by way of e-mail.

15             Thank you.  Court adjourned.

16                            --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.53 p.m.,

17                           to be reconvened on Friday, the 16th day of

18                           November, 2012, at 9.00 a.m.

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