121122ED

Page 1531

1 Thursday, 22 November 2012

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.03 a.m.

5 JUDGE DELVOIE: Good morning to everyone in and around the

6 courtroom.

7 Mr. Registrar, could you call the case, please.

8 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case number

9 IT-04-75-T, the Prosecutor versus Goran Hadzic.

10 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.

11 May we have the appearances starting with the Prosecution.

12 MR. GILLETT: Good morning, Your Honours. It's Matthew Gillett,

13 together with Matthew Olmsted, and our case manager, Thomas Laugel for

14 the Prosecution.

15 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.

16 For the Defence, Mr. Zivanovic.

17 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Good morning, Your Honours. For the Defence of

18 Goran Hadzic, Zoran Zivanovic and Chris Gosnell.

19 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you. We have been informed that there

20 would be an issue with the next witness, which is 093.

21 MR. GILLETT: Indeed, Your Honours. As the Prosecution's

22 indicated to the Chamber and the Defence, during proofing yesterday

23 afternoon the witness expressed concerns for the security of himself and

24 his family, and he's worried if his evidence is made publicly available

25 that there are certain individuals mentioned in his evidence that could

Page 1532

1 pose a threat to him and his family. Now, the witness has requested the

2 protective measures of pseudonym, image distortion, and voice distortion.

3 And the Prosecution supports him in this request and we're willing to

4 make that application. We would ask that the witness have an opportunity

5 to explain the basis of his security concerns to Your Honours. And I'm

6 happy to pose the questions to the witness, and, of course, if the

7 Defence would like to ask some follow-up questions, we'd be open to that.

8 JUDGE DELVOIE: Has the Defence a position for the moment?

9 MR. GOSNELL: Yes, Mr. President. We think it would be

10 appropriate to have the witness heard on the issue. We would like to

11 pose a few questions to the witness if questions are going to be put to

12 him. And if there appear to be a solid basis for this request, we would

13 not necessarily oppose. But we do believe we need to ask him a few

14 questions to ascertain what the basis is for his fears.

15 [Trial Chamber confers]

16 JUDGE DELVOIE: Can we go into closed session, please.

17 [Closed session]

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

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25 (redacted)

Page 1538

1 you.

2 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.

3 Mr. Witness - and I will continue to call you "Mr. Witness" to --

4 not to mention your name of course - I'm -- I will ask you to make the

5 solemn declaration and the solemn declaration -- by making the solemn

6 declaration, you commit yourself to tell the truth and I have to point

7 out that by doing so you expose yourself to the penalties of perjury

8 should you give misleading or untruthful information to the Tribunal. So

9 could you now give the solemn declaration, please.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I

11 will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the

12 truth.

13 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you. You may be seated.

14 Do we have a pseudonym sheet to put on the screen?

15 MR. GILLETT: Yes, Your Honour. If we could call up 06360. And

16 am I right that this is not being broadcast, the pseudonym sheet?

17 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Registrar -- yes.

18 Mr. Witness, can you please check the document on your screen and

19 tell us whether this is your name and your date of birth.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

21 JUDGE DELVOIE: And could you also tell me what your ethnicity

22 is.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm a Serb.

24 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.

25 MR. GILLETT: Could we get that admitted, the pseudonym sheet.

Page 1539

1 JUDGE DELVOIE: Admitted and marked.

2 THE REGISTRAR: Shall be assigned Exhibit Number P277, admitted

3 under seal. Thank you.

4 JUDGE DELVOIE: Your witness, Mr. Gillett.

5 MR. GILLETT: Thank you, Your Honour. And we are now in public

6 session? Great.

7 JUDGE DELVOIE: Yes, we are. If we need to go into private

8 session for personal details, please say so.

9 MR. GILLETT: That's okay for the meanwhile. Thank you.

10 Examination by Mr. Gillett:

11 Q. Good morning, sir. Can you hear me and understand me?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Now, sir, did you give a statement to the Prosecution of the

14 Tribunal earlier this year?

15 A. Yes.

16 MR. GILLETT: Could I have 65 ter number 02791 placed on the

17 monitor, and that should be tab 1 for Your Honours. Apologies, could

18 this not be broadcast on the monitor.

19 Q. Do you see the statement in front of you?

20 A. There's nothing there. I can't see anything on the screen. Yes,

21 now I can see it.

22 Q. And do you recognise your signature at the bottom of this

23 statement?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Were you given the opportunity to read the statement in your own

Page 1540

1 language before you signed it this year?

2 A. Yes, several times.

3 Q. And when you arrived in The Hague to testify this week, were you

4 again given the opportunity to read your statement?

5 A. Yes, several times.

6 Q. Now, I understand there are two corrections that you'd like to

7 make to the statement. Is it correct that, firstly, in the exhibit list,

8 which is at page 6 of the English version and page 5 of the B/C/S, at the

9 end, the description of Exhibit Number 1 should refer to the word

10 "commander" in places of the word "chief" of the Dalj police station.

11 And the word "deputy commander" should refer to "assistant chief" in the

12 same description?

13 A. [No interpretation]

14 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please repeat.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

16 MR. GILLETT:

17 Q. Is it also correct that for the same exhibit, in the "comments"

18 column, it should refer to paragraphs 12 and 15 instead of paragraphs 10

19 and 13?

20 A. Yes, that's correct.

21 Q. Aside from those corrections, is there anything else you would

22 like to change that's in the statement?

23 A. No, there's nothing else, no.

24 Q. And do you affirm the accuracy and truthfulness of the contents

25 of the statement?

Page 1541

1 A. I believe everything's correct, yes.

2 Q. And if you were asked about these same matters today, would you

3 provide the same information?

4 A. Yes, yes.

5 MR. GILLETT: Your Honours, at this time we would tender

6 65 ter exhibit 02791 and we'd tender that under seal for the meanwhile.

7 JUDGE DELVOIE: Admitted and marked under seal.

8 THE REGISTRAR: Should be assigned Exhibit Number P278, admitted

9 under seal. Thank you.

10 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.

11 MR. GILLETT: Now, there was one associated exhibit with the

12 statement and rather than doing this after proceedings, I would suggest

13 that we could seek to have that admitted now. This is exhibit

14 65 ter 05046.

15 JUDGE DELVOIE: Admitted and marked.

16 THE REGISTRAR: Should be assigned Exhibit P279.278.

17 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thanks.

18 MR. GILLETT: Much obliged. Your Honours, for the next couple of

19 questions could we can go into private session.

20 JUDGE DELVOIE: Private session, please.

21 THE REGISTRAR: If I can first correct the transcript. It should

22 be P279.278.

23 [Private session]

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 1542

11 Pages 1542-1544 redacted. Private session.

Page 1546

1 measures against Arkan or his men for this incident?

2 A. No, I don't know what measures he took. I assume that half of

3 Dalj, half of the inhabitants of Dalj, knew who was responsible, and for

4 that reason, there was a meeting of companies at the market behind the

5 hall of culture. That's where the meetings were held with these

6 companies and discussions were held as to why this had happened, why had

7 blood been spilled in Dalj. But the people of Dalj were not responsible

8 for it, so that is why that meeting was held there with the company at

9 that meeting, at that assembly. I was also present as well as the

10 commander, commander of the company and other officials whom I can't

11 remember now. And the question was raised as to why this had happened in

12 Dalj.

13 Q. The question was raised why this had happened. What were they

14 referring to by "this"?

15 A. Well, no one said anything, but they knew that the detainees had

16 been killed and the companies wanted to know who had done that, for what

17 reason, and why Dalj should have blood on its hand, why blood should have

18 been spilt in Dalj, but not by inhabitants of Dalj but by people from the

19 outside.

20 Q. And when did this gathering occur?

21 A. Well, I can't remember exactly. I think it was one day or two or

22 three days after the events, a couple of days later, I think.

23 Q. And just to clarify, "after the events" meaning the October 4

24 and 5 incident; is that correct?

25 A. Well, yes. I'm referring to the people who were killed at the

Page 1547

1 Danube.

2 Q. Now, did anybody respond to those allegations at this meeting?

3 A. You mean at the assembly of the companies, at the market?

4 Q. Yes.

5 A. Well, no one did. Perhaps a commander from the companies reacted

6 and asked why this had happened, who was responsible, why should Dalj

7 have blood on their hands, but the people from Dalj didn't do anything.

8 And then Arkan turned up from behind us. He was wearing a raincoat, I

9 remember this clearly, and he also had a Zolja on his back and he

10 appeared in front of the company and said, "I did it. Is there a

11 problem? Who can do anything about it?" That was Zeljko Raznjatovic,

12 Arkan. I hadn't seen him before. That was the first time I saw him.

13 I'd seen him on television, when there was, for example, a football

14 between Dinamo and Crvena Zvezda, a football fan was arrested in Zagreb.

15 There were such occasions.

16 Q. You said that you hadn't seen him before. Could we go to

17 paragraph 11 of your statement.

18 MR. GILLETT: Which should be page 3 in B/C/S and English.

19 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Gillett, in the meantime could you ask the

20 witness what he means by "companies." He's talking about the gathering

21 of companies. What is he referring to?

22 MR. GILLETT:

23 Q. Witness, what are you referring to when you say "companies"? Who

24 were these companies?

25 A. They were companies from the Dalj TO, Territorial Defence. A

Page 1548

1 platoon has about 80 men; a company has perhaps about a hundred men. So

2 there were about 4- , 5- or 600 men, four, five, six companies, I can't

3 remember exactly. There were four, five, or six companies that were

4 lined up there so that the reasons for which this had happened could be

5 discussed and so that we could try to determine who was responsible.

6 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.

7 MR. GILLETT:

8 Q. Thank you. And going to paragraph 11 of your statement which

9 should be on the screen in front of you, you describe an incident where

10 Arkan and Hadzic turned up to the police station a few days before this

11 incident. Is that correct?

12 A. Let me just read that. Yes, correct.

13 Q. Was that the first time you saw Arkan in person?

14 A. Yes, that was the first time but was from a certain distance,

15 from a distance of 20 or 30 metres, about 20 metres, roughly speaking.

16 Q. Going back to the gathering at the market square in Dalj, after

17 Arkan acknowledged responsibility for this incident, did you report that

18 to your superiors?

19 A. I was reading what's on the screen. Could you please repeat your

20 question.

21 Q. Certainly. Going back to --

22 A. I do apologise.

23 Q. No, no problem at all. Going back to your description of the

24 gathering at the market square in Dalj, after Arkan acknowledged

25 responsibility for this incident, did you report this to your superiors?

Page 1549

1 A. I think that they were present too. I can't remember exactly,

2 but we were all there, almost all of us, prominent people, ordinary

3 people, TO soldiers, the members of the TO at the time. Everyone was

4 there at the market. He said that in public. He said, "I did it. What

5 can you do about it?" He had a Zolja with him and then the companies

6 just remained silent. No one dared say a thing.

7 Q. Now, turning to a new topic --

8 MR. GILLETT: And could we go into private session for this.

9 JUDGE DELVOIE: Private session, please.

10 [Private session]

11 (redacted)

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Page 1550

11 Pages 1550-1551 redacted. Private session.

Page 1552

1 (redacted)

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12 [Open session]

13 THE REGISTRAR: We're back in open session, Your Honours. Thank

14 you.

15 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.

16 MR. GILLETT:

17 Q. Now, Witness, earlier you mentioned expulsions of Croats. I'm

18 going to ask you: Are you aware of any expulsions from Dalj where you

19 were based in 1992?

20 A. Yes, there were cases of expulsion. Djordje Calosevic was

21 responsible for that. He was a member of the TO. He was in charge for

22 those case -- of those cases, together with Arkan and some other Dalj

23 locals. That was on Easter 1992, on Easter 1992.

24 Q. Were there any policemen present during the expulsion at Easter

25 in 1992?

Page 1553

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 sometime around 5.00 in the afternoon, that people would be expelled, but

4 that the police would not get involved, that the police would not have

5 any authority over that. It would all be done by the TO headed by

6 Djordje Calosevic, aka Briga. However, later on we learned that

7 two policemen had gotten a bit drunk and that around 12.00 the following

8 day, when buses were being loaded by the Catholic church, two of them

9 came, one in uniform and one in civilian clothes and that was recorded.

10 And then Vlastimir Dencic, who has been sentenced to four years by the

11 Croatian authorities because he was there by the buses, he did not expel

12 anybody. The police were not supposed to be anywhere near, but he got

13 drunk, his colleague invited him to join him, and that's why he went

14 there and he got on a bus, making sure that nobody got off the bus. I

15 suppose that somebody from the TO told him to do that. And that was one

16 of the things that Djoko Briga did.

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 A. I don't know. I didn't ask him. He didn't volunteer the

21 information either. He only said that we should not get involved in all

22 that as police because it was a TO matter. Western Slavonia fell, Serbs

23 were expelled from there, that's why we had to expel Croats because we

24 needed our -- their houses to accommodate the Serbs that had been

25 expelled from Western Slavonia and that was that.

Page 1554

1 Q. Final question: Do you know if any measures were taken against

2 the TO members that carried out this expulsion?

3 A. I don't know who would be the one to take measures against them.

4 I'm sure that the TO commander knew it and approved it. The TO commander

5 had the highest authority in a village. There's no reason for anybody to

6 take any measures if the commander knows everything. Zavisic, who was a

7 co-ordinator at a meeting, he told us: Pajo is your father, Djuro is

8 your mother, and that is that.

9 Q. Thank you.

10 MR. GILLETT: Those are all the questions I have at this time.

11 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.

12 Cross-examination, Mr. Gosnell.

13 Cross-examination by Mr. Gosnell:

14 Q. Good morning, Mr. Witness.

15 A. Good morning.

16 Q. My name is Christopher Gosnell. I represent Mr. Hadzic in these

17 proceedings. I'm going to be asking you a few questions this morning.

18 If there's anything that's not clear or that requires further

19 elaboration, please feel free to ask for that. Do you understand?

20 A. I do, yes.

21 Q. Sir, when did you learn that you might be a witness in these

22 proceedings?

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 1555

11 Page 1555 redacted.

Page 1556

1 (redacted)

2 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Gosnell, I wonder whether if you continue

3 this line of questioning we shouldn't go into private session, and by all

4 means I will ask the Registrar to redact this portion.

5 MR. GOSNELL: I would absolutely request a redaction; I apologise

6 for that. And perhaps it's now prudent to go into private session.

7 JUDGE DELVOIE: Private session, please.

8 [Private session]

9 (redacted)

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Page 1557

11 Pages 1557-1563 redacted. Private session.

Page 1564

1 [Closed session]

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17 [Open session]

18 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours. Thank you.

19 MR. GOSNELL:

20 Q. Sir, we're now in open session, so be very careful, if possible,

21 about mentioning your position at the time. Do you understand?

22 A. Yes.

23 MR. GOSNELL: Now, I'm done with the document that was on the

24 screen, 1D132. We're not tendering it, but let the record reflect that

25 1D132 is page 3 of P126.111 with two initials redacted to conceal the

Page 1565

1 identity of a previous protected witness.

2 Could we have P96, please.

3 Q. Before the break we were talking, Mr. Witness --

4 MR. GILLETT: Sorry to interrupt, but it looks to me like P96, if

5 this bundle's correct, is this the picture -- an image which has some

6 markings on it. Is that correct?

7 MR. GOSNELL: There are three markings. There is no indication

8 of the identity of the witness who made the markings. This is tab 3 of

9 the Defence list.

10 MR. GILLETT: I'm just wondering if it would be more appropriate

11 to get the witness to mark a fresh image rather than comment on markings

12 that have been made by a previous witness.

13 JUDGE DELVOIE: I don't know whether the witness will be asked to

14 comment on markings made by a previous witness, Mr. Gillett.

15 MR. GILLETT: Okay. Fair point.

16 MR. GOSNELL: I'm not obliged to have this witness remark every

17 aerial image, so I'm going to ask questions on the basis of the document,

18 Mr. President.

19 JUDGE DELVOIE: Please proceed.

20 MR. GOSNELL:

21 Q. Mr. Witness, this is -- can -- when you look at this image in

22 front of you, can you recognise it as being an aerial image of Dalj or

23 part of Dalj?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And looking at this image, can you confirm that P2 is the

Page 1566

1 location of the Dom Kulture building and that P3 is the location of the

2 Zadruga building?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Now, you told us that after you moved from the office in the

5 Dom Kulture building, you didn't -- the police did not subsequent use

6 that building. Is it correct to say that after you moved to the Zadruga

7 building, that was the only office that the Dalj police had in 1991?

8 A. Well, we used the Dom Kulture initially. That was the first

9 building and the second building we used was the Stara Zadruga. I

10 couldn't tell you when exactly because a lot of time has passed since

11 then. I don't know whether we were in the Dom --

12 Q. Sir, sir, let me just cut you off --

13 A. -- for a couple of weeks or months.

14 Q. Let me just cut you off. I actually didn't ask you about time,

15 but let me rephrase my question to try to help you a little here. After

16 you moved into the Zadruga facility, did the police have any other office

17 in Dalj other than that office?

18 A. No, there was only one office in the Zadruga building.

19 Q. Okay. And now I'll ask you, sir: Approximately how long, as

20 best you can recall, were you using the Dom Kulture office at location

21 P2?

22 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Gosnell, isn't that asked and answered? This

23 is about the first location; right?

24 MR. GOSNELL: The first location.

25 JUDGE DELVOIE: I remember the witness answering this --

Page 1567

1 MR. GOSNELL: That's fine. I'm happy with that, Mr. President.

2 Q. Now, after you moved to the Zadruga building, did Mr. Stricevic

3 also have an office there?

4 A. Yes, he did have an office there, yes.

5 Q. How close was it to the office of Zeljko Cizmic? Again, without

6 in any way revealing your role.

7 A. It was close. It wasn't really an office. It was, in fact, a

8 room in which prisoners would be interrogated. That's where they would

9 interrogate them. And they didn't linger in there. They would just

10 interrogate them. I think they had a real and permanent office in the

11 TO, the Territorial Defence.

12 Q. And was there a separate room close by where detainees were held?

13 A. Yes, there was a room.

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 Q. Am I correct that there was no change in the authority of the

20 Dalj TO over the milicija after the move to the Zadruga building?

21 A. Everything remained as it was.

22 MR. GOSNELL: Could we have 1D133, please. And I'm looking for

23 page 1 of the English. This is tab 2 of the Defence list. And I'm

24 looking for page 1 of the English and page 8 of the B/C/S.

25 (redacted)

Page 1568

1 (redacted)

2 MR. GOSNELL: I think we need to go into private session,

3 Mr. President.

4 JUDGE DELVOIE: And redact that sentence.

5 [Private session]

6 (redacted)

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Page 1569

11 Pages 1569-1594 redacted. Private session.

Page 1595

1 (redacted)

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4 [Closed session]

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Page 1596

11 Pages 1596-1598 redacted. Closed session.

Page 1599

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16 [Open session]

17 THE REGISTRAR: We're back in open session, Your Honours.

18 JUDGE DELVOIE: Yes.

19 MR. GILLETT: Your Honour, I'm aware that I used slightly more

20 than my allotted time in direct, and with your leave, there was one issue

21 that I was going to seek to clarify in re-direct.

22 JUDGE DELVOIE: Okay. Can we do it in open session?

23 MR. GILLETT: It would be better in private session, sorry.

24 JUDGE DELVOIE: Okay. Let's go into private session, then.

25 [Private session]

Page 1603

1 to The Hague to assist the Tribunal with your testimony. You are now

2 released as a witness. Once we are in closed session, the usher will

3 escort you out of the courtroom and we wish you a safe journey back home.

4 Closed session, please.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. I thank you

6 too.

7 [Closed session]

8 (redacted)

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17 [Open session]

18 THE REGISTRAR: We're back in open session, Your Honours. Thank

19 you.

20 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you. Then the witness can be brought in.

21 MS. BIERSAY: [Microphone not activated]

22 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for Ms. Biersay.

23 MS. BIERSAY: We can go ahead and start with 65 ter number 6345,

24 which would be the pseudonym sheet. And for timing, I anticipate using

25 no more than 30, 35 minutes, hopefully less. And if there's no objection

Page 1604

1 from Defence counsel, I'd like to present the witness with a hard copy of

2 the numbered statement because I -- we found that in proofing it was

3 easier for him to handle the document.

4 JUDGE DELVOIE: No objection from the Defence?

5 MR. GOSNELL: None, Mr. President. Thank you.

6 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.

7 MS. BIERSAY: And is there any objection to me tendering the

8 original statement as well as the numbered statement, so to present them

9 both for admission?

10 JUDGE DELVOIE: That seems to be a difficult one.

11 Mr. Registrar, what's your point of view?

12 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

13 JUDGE DELVOIE: No problem. Two different numbers, then, no

14 problem.

15 MS. BIERSAY: Thank you. And I will be from time to time

16 asking -- I will be asking to go into closed session because I believe

17 that the -- his -- the specific place of his employment may tend to

18 identify him. So when issues relate to that I'll ask to go into closed

19 session.

20 JUDGE DELVOIE: Private.

21 MS. BIERSAY: Into private session. Thank you.

22 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thanks.

23 MR. GOSNELL: Sorry, Mr. President, could I just verify that the

24 only change to the replacement is the paragraph numbering?

25 MS. BIERSAY: That's correct. That was the only addition to the

Page 1605

1 groups of exhibit.

2 [The witness entered court]

3 JUDGE DELVOIE: Good afternoon, Mr. Witness.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

5 JUDGE DELVOIE: As you have been given the protective measures of

6 pseudonym, I will not -- nobody will mention your name and I will refer

7 to you as "Mr. Witness." Do you understand me in a -- do you hear me,

8 sorry, in a language you understand?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I do.

10 JUDGE DELVOIE: We have the pseudonym sheet on the screen -- no,

11 not yet.

12 MS. BIERSAY: And that's 65 ter number 6345, tab 1. We may

13 tender it -- it should be kept confidential, please.

14 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Witness, could you please look at the screen

15 and tell us whether your name and your date of birth are correctly

16 mentioned there.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can see everything, yes.

18 JUDGE DELVOIE: And it is correct?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, correct.

20 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you. Now, I will ask you to make the

21 solemn declaration, solemn declaration, by which witnesses commit

22 themselves to tell the truth. And I need to tell you that you expose

23 yourself to the penalties of perjury should you give misleading or

24 untruthful evidence to this Tribunal. So could you now read the solemn

25 declaration, please.

Page 1606

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

2 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

3 WITNESS: GH-067

4 [Witness answered through interpreter]

5 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you. You may be seated.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

7 JUDGE DELVOIE: One more question of me, Mr. Witness. What is

8 your ethnicity?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm a Serb.

10 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.

11 Your witness, Ms. Biersay.

12 MS. BIERSAY: Thank you, Your Honour. At this time we tender

13 65 ter number 6345, under seal.

14 JUDGE DELVOIE: Admitted and marked under seal.

15 THE REGISTRAR: Shall be assigned Exhibit Number P280, admitted

16 under seal. Thank you.

17 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.

18 Examination by Ms. Biersay:

19 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Witness. Can you hear me?

20 A. Good afternoon. Yes, I can hear you.

21 Q. I would like to direct your attention to a signed statement that

22 you provided to members of the Prosecution of this Tribunal. Do you

23 remember signing a written statement?

24 A. Yes, I remember that.

25 MS. BIERSAY: At this time may I please ask the Registrar to

Page 1607

1 display confidentially the English version of 65 ter number 3097, which

2 is tab 2. And to the first page, please.

3 Q. Mr. Witness, do you recognise any of the signatures at the bottom

4 of that page on the screen to your right?

5 A. Yes, I do.

6 Q. And whose signature do you recognise it to be?

7 A. My own.

8 Q. And do you recognise this first page?

9 A. Yes, I do.

10 Q. What do you recognise it to be?

11 A. My first name, my last name, and my date of birth.

12 MS. BIERSAY: Could we --

13 Q. Do you recognise this first page as being the first page of the

14 statement that you signed?

15 A. Yes, I do.

16 Q. Have you had an opportunity to review all the pages of this

17 document?

18 MS. BIERSAY: And if we could move to the second page.

19 Q. Mr. Witness, have you had an opportunity to review all the pages

20 of this document?

21 A. Yes, I have had that opportunity.

22 Q. And did you recognise your signature on all the pages of this

23 document?

24 A. Yes, I did.

25 Q. And is this the statement that you signed in May of 2001?

Page 1608

1 A. Yes, it is.

2 Q. Before you signed this statement which is in English, was it

3 interpreted to you in a language that you understood?

4 A. Yes, it was. Yes.

5 Q. And in preparation for your appearance before the Trial Chamber

6 today, have you had an opportunity to review -- to read and review a

7 translation of this statement in a language that you understand?

8 A. Yes, I have.

9 MS. BIERSAY: And at this time if I could ask for some assistance

10 in giving the witness this hard copy. Thank you.

11 Q. When you reviewed your statement in your language, did you find

12 some information --

13 MS. BIERSAY: Sorry, it's for the witness. Thank you.

14 Q. When you reviewed your statement in a language you understood,

15 did you find some information that you wanted to modify?

16 A. No, I didn't.

17 Q. And did you find some things that you wanted to correct in your

18 statement?

19 A. Yes, I did.

20 MS. BIERSAY: If I could please ask the Registry for

21 65 ter 3097.1, which is tab 3. This is the same as 3097 but with

22 handwritten paragraph numbers for ease of reference.

23 Q. Mr. Witness, you have a hard copy of the numbered version in

24 front of you. If I could direct your attention to page 3 in the B/C/S,

25 to paragraph 13, which is page 4 on the English version.

Page 1609

1 Now, in paragraph 13 there is the word "arrested" in that

2 paragraph. Do you see that word?

3 A. Yes, I do.

4 Q. And you wanted to change that?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. What did you want to change it to?

7 A. "Taken away" or "brought in."

8 Q. Now directing your attention to paragraph 17, which is page 4 of

9 the version you're looking at, Mr. Witness - it's also page 4 in the

10 English version - and in that paragraph also is the word "arrested."

11 Would you also like to change that word?

12 A. Yes, I would.

13 Q. What would you like to change it to?

14 A. "Brought in."

15 Q. Now directing your attention to paragraph 15, which is on the

16 same page both in the English and the B/C/S, paragraph 15, you indicated

17 that you wanted to remove this paragraph from your statement; is that

18 correct?

19 A. Yes, that's correct.

20 Q. And is that because the information is incorrect in that

21 paragraph?

22 A. Yes, that's the reason.

23 MS. BIERSAY: Now at this time if we could go into private

24 session, please.

25 JUDGE DELVOIE: Private session, please.

Page 1610

1 [Private session]

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 1611

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 [Open session]

20 THE REGISTRAR: We're back in open session, Your Honours. Thank

21 you.

22 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.

23 MS. BIERSAY:

24 Q. Mr. Witness, with the corrections that you've just made, is this

25 statement now accurate and truthful?

Page 1612

1 A. Yes, it is accurate.

2 Q. And is it also truthful?

3 A. It is truthful, yes.

4 Q. If you were asked questions about the material contained in this

5 statement, would you provide in substance the same information?

6 A. Yes, I would provide the same information.

7 MS. BIERSAY: And at this time we tender both 65 ter 3097 and

8 3097.1 under seal.

9 JUDGE DELVOIE: Both admitted and marked under seal.

10 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the first one shall be assigned

11 Exhibit Number P281; and the second one under 65 ter number 3097.1 shall

12 be assigned Exhibit Number P282. Thank you.

13 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.

14 MS. BIERSAY:

15 Q. Mr. Witness, I'd like to ask you for some additional information

16 about the statement that we've just looked at. First I'd like to direct

17 your attention to paragraph 20, which is page 4 of the B/C/S version, and

18 it's page 5 of the English. In that paragraph you describe a special

19 militia unit. Do you see that?

20 A. Yes, I do.

21 Q. And then I'd like to direct your attention to paragraph 7, which

22 is on page 2 of the B/C/S and page 3 of the English. And I won't read it

23 because we're in open session, but my question to you is: The special

24 militia unit that you discuss in 20, does that refer to the unit that you

25 discuss in paragraph 7 of your statement?

Page 1613

1 A. Yes, it is the same unit.

2 Q. Now, in the same paragraph, in paragraph 20, you list some local

3 Serbs led by Radoslav Kostic. Do you know if they became part of

4 another -- what group or unit were they a part of, did it have a name?

5 A. The group's name was the Red Berets and they belonged to

6 Radoslav Kostic, and the other group consisted of local Serbs. Their

7 names are also mentioned in here.

8 Q. And did the group that you mention in paragraph 7 work with the

9 groups that you've mentioned in paragraph 20.

10 A. Yes, they co-operate.

11 Q. Now I'd like to direct your attention to paragraph 11 which is

12 page 3 of the B/C/S and page 4 of the English. And you mention the name

13 of Zvonko Fucec, and forgive me for mispronouncing it, I'll spell it,

14 F-u-c - with double banana - e-c. You discuss that person. Do you know

15 what ethnicity that person was?

16 A. Yes, of Croat ethnicity.

17 Q. And now directing your attention to paragraph 18, which is on

18 page 4 of the English and also, I believe, page 4 of your version,

19 Mr. Witness, and you mention Zoran Andjel, Vinko Oroz and Pero Rasic. Do

20 you know their ethnicity?

21 A. Yes, they were of Croat ethnicity.

22 Q. You also mention Tibor Siles. What was his ethnicity?

23 A. Hungarian.

24 Q. You mention Rudolf Jukic. Do you know his ethnicity?

25 A. No, I don't know.

Page 1614

1 Q. Do you know whether he was a Serb?

2 A. He wasn't a Serb.

3 Q. But you don't know what else he was -- or you don't know what he

4 was but you knew that he was not a Serb, is that right, if I understand?

5 A. Correct. He wasn't a Serb but I don't know what his ethnicity

6 was.

7 MS. BIERSAY: At this time if we could please go into private

8 session, Mr. President.

9 JUDGE DELVOIE: Private session, please.

10 [Private session]

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 1615

11 Pages 1615-1616 redacted. Private session.

Page 1617

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 [Open session]

8 THE REGISTRAR: We're back in open session, Your Honours. Thank

9 you.

10 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.

11 MS. BIERSAY:

12 Q. Now, Mr. Witness, when we met to discuss your statement you were

13 also shown a video by the Prosecution; is that correct?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Well, a video-clip. It was quite short. Is that correct?

16 A. Correct.

17 Q. And when you were shown the clip did you recognise anything on

18 the video?

19 A. I did.

20 Q. What did you recognise?

21 A. I recognised Radoslav Kostic's head, the sculpture of him.

22 Q. And did you recognise any other -- any living person on the

23 video-clip?

24 A. Yes, Slobodan Milosevic.

25 MS. BIERSAY: At this time I would like to play for the

Page 1618

1 Trial Chamber 65 ter 5035.1, which is tab 8, and it has very little sound

2 and there's no translation.

3 Before we begin, I'll explain to the Trial Chamber that this is a

4 clip from 65 ter 5035 from 7 minute, 33 seconds, to 9 minute, 4 seconds,

5 and that is a video footage of an awards ceremony with members of the

6 Red Berets and the ceremony is dated from May 1997.

7 [Video-clip played]

8 MS. BIERSAY: Can you pause it. Go back a bit.

9 Q. Do you recognise who that is a bust of?

10 A. It's the bust of Radoslav Kostic.

11 MS. BIERSAY: And just to tell the Chamber, several witnesses

12 will discuss the full video. We're just addressing this very small

13 portion of it. And at this time we would tender the 65 ter number

14 5035.1.

15 JUDGE DELVOIE: Which is the clip?

16 MS. BIERSAY: Which is the clip, correct.

17 JUDGE DELVOIE: Admitted and marked.

18 THE REGISTRAR: Shall be assigned Exhibit Number P283. Thank

19 you.

20 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.

21 MS. BIERSAY: That would end my direct examination, but before I

22 hand the microphone over I wanted to advise the Trial Chamber that the

23 admitted statement of the witness -- there are attachments to that

24 statement and those have been listed separately and independently on our

25 65 ter exhibit list. But unless the Trial Chamber directs us otherwise,

Page 1619

1 we don't intend to tender them separately. And I can tell the

2 Trial Chamber that the B/C/S attachment which is at page 7 of the English

3 original is also 65 ter exhibit 3199 which is in your binder, and a

4 version of that has already been admitted as P112.111. The B/C/S

5 attachment at page 8 is also independently 65 ter number 3200 and a

6 version of that has already been admitted as P120.111. And next is the

7 attachment which is also 65 ter number 5042 and an exact copy of that has

8 already been admitted as P118.111. So I just wanted to put that in the

9 record, but we won't be tendering the duplicate -- the duplicated

10 65 ter numbers.

11 JUDGE DELVOIE: So --

12 MS. BIERSAY: So I think --

13 JUDGE DELVOIE: -- so you're going to find them as attachments?

14 MS. BIERSAY: Exactly.

15 JUDGE DELVOIE: There are three attachments.

16 MS. BIERSAY: Exactly.

17 JUDGE DELVOIE: Which normally we should call associated

18 documents with the 92 ter --

19 MS. BIERSAY: Exactly.

20 JUDGE DELVOIE: -- but as they are already tendered we don't need

21 to tender them a second time?

22 MS. BIERSAY: Exactly.

23 JUDGE DELVOIE: That's clear. Thank you.

24 Cross-examination, Mr. Gosnell.

25 MR. GOSNELL: Could we have 1D134 on the screen, please.

Page 1620

1 Cross-examination by Mr. Gosnell:

2 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Witness.

3 A. Good afternoon.

4 Q. My name is Christopher Gosnell. I am here on behalf of

5 Mr. Hadzic and I just have a very few questions for you. Now, this is

6 the same document in both B/C/S and English so we can just show a single

7 document. In front of you there is a map and this is a map of the area

8 of Baranja and Eastern Slavonia. Is that right?

9 A. Yes.

10 MR. GOSNELL: Now, if we could just zoom in on the top half of

11 the map, please. That's perfect. Thank you.

12 Q. Am I right, sir, that there's no border crossing in the -- the

13 closest border crossing for you in Darda would be Batina. Is that right?

14 A. Yes, in Batina.

15 Q. And south of Batina, as far as we can see in this map, there's no

16 other crossing into Serbia; correct?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Who was controlling the border crossing at Batina?

19 A. The police together with the army controlled the crossing.

20 Q. Let's start on the Baranja side. Who exactly was controlling the

21 border crossing on the Baranja side, please?

22 A. The police.

23 Q. Which police?

24 A. The reserve police force.

25 Q. And was the army with them?

Page 1621

1 A. Yes, it was.

2 Q. And who was controlling the border crossing on the Serbian side,

3 please?

4 A. The police on the Serbian side, it was under their control.

5 Q. And did that police have a particular name that you can recall?

6 A. I can't remember it having a particular name.

7 Q. Was it the Plavci?

8 A. I can't remember.

9 Q. And is it correct that in order to travel to Dalj in a vehicle

10 from Darda, one would have to cross at Batina and then, as we see on this

11 map, proceed through Sombor, Prigrevica and then down to Bogojevo? Would

12 that be the route?

13 A. Yes, that's the route.

14 MR. GOSNELL: No further questions, Mr. President. Thank you.

15 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you very much.

16 MR. GOSNELL: I don't think there's a need to tender considering

17 that there are other maps and the place names that are relevant were

18 mentioned.

19 JUDGE DELVOIE: Okay.

20 Mr. Witness, this brings an end to your testimony. We thank you

21 for coming to The Hague to assist the Tribunal. You are now released as

22 a witness and the Court Usher will escort you out of the courtroom. We

23 wish you a safe journey back home.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

25 [The witness withdrew]

Page 1622

1 [Trial Chamber and Legal Officer confer]

2 JUDGE DELVOIE: We have a Prosecution request for augmentation of

3 Exhibit Number P00242, Rule 65 ter exhibit 05036. The Defence does not

4 oppose. Am I right?

5 MR. ZIVANOVIC: No, Your Honour.

6 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you. And the motion is granted.

7 Is there anything else?

8 MS. BIERSAY: Not on behalf of the Prosecution, Your Honour.

9 JUDGE DELVOIE: For the Defence? Anything else?

10 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Nothing. Thank you.

11 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.

12 Court adjourned.

13 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.52 p.m.,

14 to be reconvened on Friday, the 23rd day of

15 November, 2012, at 9.00 a.m.